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Was The Bruce's 'blessed Kessog' our patron saint before Andrew?



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Published Date: 10 March 2008
WHILE the debate over whether St Andrew's Day should be an official public holiday keeps going on, consider St Kessog, whom some claim to have been a patron saint of Scotland before Andrew took the honours, and whose feast day falls today, March 10.
A stone effigy of St Kessog whose name Robert the Bruce is said to have invoked before battle
A stone effigy of St Kessog whose name Robert the Bruce is said to have invoked before battle
"Who?" do we hear you shout, unfurling your saltires in indignant defence of auld Sanct Andra? Yet there are those who claim that Kessog, Kessoc, or MacKessog, a Christian missionary who settled near Luss, on Loch Lomondside, was in effect patron saint of Scotland before Andrew, and that at Bannockburn, Robert the Bruce urged on his troops in the name of "blessed Kessog".

Records of the Saint are thin on the ground, but most accounts suggest he was a Christian missionary, originally a son of the kings of Cashel, ancient capital of the Irish province of Munster, who arrived in Scotland in or around 510 and established a base on Inchtavannach ("the island of the monk's house"), just off Luss.

While still in Ireland, he is supposed to have miraculously revived some boys after a drowning accident.

And he is said to have been martyred on March 10, 560, (some sources say as early as 520), a mile and half south of Luss at Bandry, where a cairn to his name become a focus of pilgrimage until the Reformation, but was demolished by road builders during the18th century.

Today, Luss Parish Church, which in two years time will celebrate 1,500 years of continuous Christian worship on the site, still champions the name of the saint buried somewhere in its grounds, and possesses three artefacts removed from the cairn when it was demolished. These are a carved stone head thought to be of the saint and thought to date from the sixth century, an ancient stone font and a stone effigy of a bishop, which some believe to be Kessogl.

The present parish church was built in 1875, and these days maintains a pilgrimage centre – as well as its own MacKessog tartan, designed two years ago. According to its minister, the Rev Dr Dane Sherrard, Robert the Bruce knew the area, and its saint, very well.

Dr Sherrard, who will conduct a service for St Kessog today, agrees that at Bannockburn, Bruce urged his troops into battle in the name of "the blessed Kessog". "So successful was the battle that he came back to Luss and granted a three-mile girth of sanctuary to the church. A pilgrimage began again then and continued until the Reformation," he said.

One exponent of Kessoc as an alternative patron saint is Donald McKinney, the author of Walking the Mist: A Practical Guide to Celtic Spirituality, who admits that much of what we know about Kessog is anecdotal but believes the saint deserves recognition.

He said: "He was somebody who reached out to me as an inspiration and felt more real, more Celtic, than say St Andrew. I read a book which said that he was patron saint of Scotland before Andrew, and that he was also known as 'the warrior saint'."

Dr Alan MacQuarrie, who has translated and edited a brief life of the saint from the early 16th-century Aberdeen Breviary, says that not a lot is known about him: "The legend has it that he came originally from Munster in south-west Ireland, and the Earls of Lennox, in the area round about Loch Lomond, also claimed to come from there."

He added that the name crops up at Auchterarder, Comrie, Callander, Glen Finglas and Strathearn, while the Kessock Bridge at Inverness replaced Port Cheasaig – "Kessog's ferry".

St Kessog: the little we know…

THE saint's life is relatively obscure, but there are some details that shed light on his ministry.

The entry in The Oxford Dictionary of Saints says: "Kessog (Mackessog) (sixth century) Bishop:

• Born at Cashel of the royal family of Munster, Kessog went to Scotland, became a monk and eventually a bishop in the area around Loch Lomond.

• Luss was the principal centre of his cult.

• His traditional residence was the Monk's Island in the loch.

• Kessog is said to have been murdered by assassins at Bandry, where a heap of stones, known as St Kessog's Cairn, once stood. Part of this was removed during road-making in the 18th century and a stone statue of Kessog was found inside it.

• Several churches in different parts of Scotland are dedicated to him.

• Feast: 10 March."

Footprints of the Ancient Scottish Church, published in 1914, noted: "An ancient fair at Auchterarder in Perthshire (1200) recalled the feast of this saint once kept in Scotland (10 March).

"He was an Irish bishop and is said to have suffered martyrdom in Dunbartonshire (AD560).

"There were other fairs in his honour at Comrie and Callander, both in Perthshire, and on the island of Cumbrae."





The full article contains 821 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 March 2008 11:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: St Andrew's Day
 
1

Resolutions,

10/03/2008 00:43:54
Somebody needing another day off?

Off course The Bruce and other Kings knew this saint and many more throughout Scotland. They knew more about them, than most of us do today. What about St Fillan, St Duthog(not sure of spelling), St Columba even,St Machar, St Mirren, St Johnstone, St Ninian, St Magnus ot even Glasgow's St Mungo? There are a lot of lost Scottish saints.

Think it is part of re-discovering out heritage.
2

Beth Boyle,

NY 10/03/2008 03:33:20
Aye and Murdo or Saint Kentigern who was born at Culross in Fife!
3

Beth Boyle,

NY 10/03/2008 03:34:11
Woops I mean Mungo, Murdo is the name of me tup!
4

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 10/03/2008 06:23:50
Why do we even contemplate having saints? Christianity is an alien and invented religion. Andrew never even heard of Scotland. This tripe has no place in an informed Scotland. It's time we all grew up!
5

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/03/2008 06:25:06
Funny that, Murdo is the name of my tup too. He's Patron Saint of Ewes!

Haha, no? Ok. Too early.
6

Argyll on line,

Argyll 10/03/2008 06:42:21
This blessed saint helped bring Christ and civiliation to Scotland and indeed saved us from fools like Rulesbutnotrulers above.
7

donald,

glasgow 10/03/2008 07:04:26
There must have been many "Saints" in Scotland afore St Andy. The point is the "St Andrews" Saltire flag was adopted by all, including us of the non Hallelujah brigade. We see the flag a s a recognisable symbol of nationhood believed by th Cruithne (Picts)to appear in the sky before defeating the invading Angles. I'm sure most Sassunachs do not believe the myth of "Saint" Gorge" and the Welsh dragon, but just accept the flag as their own. They can keep the Butcher's Apron as well.
8

inoui,

Jomtien 10/03/2008 07:36:37
Knox has a lot to answer to.
9

Navvy,

10/03/2008 07:40:54
The more the merrier

I will now toast St.Andrew & St Kessog when I celebrate the feast of St.Andrew
10

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 10/03/2008 07:46:53
#6 Argyle on line.

You say: "This blessed saint helped bring Christ and civiliation to Scotland and indeed saved us from fools like Rulesbutnotrulers above".

Briton was civilised long before Christianity was invented and then forced upon the rest of us by misogynists wielding fire, sword and threats of hellish damnation and all in the name of a 'loving' god. Julius Caesar wrote a lot about what he found when he arrived. Go read it. Then study our archaeology. Then get back to me. Cheers.

And see I am still here just how has this alien religion saved Scotland from me?
11

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 10/03/2008 08:04:54
Did St Kessog invent cornflakes?
12

Dave Scott,

St Albans 10/03/2008 08:06:16
eh *1, I don't think you can add 'St Johnstone'. Was it not because Perth was St John's toun, John being another of the Lord's disciples.

mmm *10 more revisionist claptrap. Despite there being small cities, I can't recall pre-Christian 'Briton' being other than fire & sword-wielding with Celtic child-sacrifice thrown in, plus there's no real justice for women either. Since the leaders of those who fought to form Scotland appealed to the 'Lord of the Hebrews' then one could argue that Scotland itself is a Christian invention. Descend back into Pictdom, return to Dalraida or what other form of internally riven tribalism you want. Drag the rest of us back into some kind of spiritual dark age? Wake up and smell the coffee.
How can anything be alien to the Lord of all Creation other than that which wants to be?
13

Tamus,

High Street 10/03/2008 08:13:44
Oh come on. Can someone not find a Patron Saint who has a day in the middle of Summer, Something useful for a change please. November and March are pretty dreich months after all
14

Isonomia,

Lenzie 10/03/2008 08:29:36
We owe St. Andrews to the first wave of Hungarian immigrants, he has nothing to do with Scotland and it is about time Scotland had its own Patron saint.
15

Guga II,

Rockall 10/03/2008 08:30:39
It was St. Ninian, a Galloway pict, who brought christianity to Scotland, in 397.
16

voltaire's janny,

10/03/2008 08:38:10
Bah humbug.

Bruce was as cynical as any modern politician and especially "religious" after his excommunication. Any saint will serve; Kessog or any wandering loony from the earlier Culdee church (suppressed brutally of course in favour of Catolicism).

There are no gods. Think for yourselves.
17

,

10/03/2008 08:52:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

jane m,

Leeds 10/03/2008 08:54:44
If you want another early celtic saint - what about st cuthbert, a simple shepherd boy who was prior of Melrose. He was at least born in scotland,in the lammermuirs around 635, although his feast day is March 20th so thats no use to those who want an extra day's summer holiday (or should that be HOLY day - as its the church festivals, christmas, easter, pentecost, etc which gave us our no norking days to begin with!)Admittedly Cuthbert went off to scotland to convert the english, so that makes him an ex pat I suppose
19

jane m,

Leeds 10/03/2008 08:55:56
18 sorry that should be non working day.
20

wayne bijlyeerheid,

10/03/2008 08:59:53
Any point in telling these people that "Ireland" was known as Scotland until the 11th century at least?
Any point in telling them that all these "celtic" saints etc., were never described as any thing else, by contemporaries and themselves, but Scots?
At the very least that would suggest that the "Scotti",if only a tribe, were the dominant force on that island.
Or does it suit them to pretend that the Scots didn't exist and that there has only ever been people known as "Irish"?
Bit racialist.
21

Mcsnagpile,

10/03/2008 09:01:54
I hate to tell you but,,, there are no Saints in the national Presbyterian Church. The Roman Catholic Church makes Saints. What is the national saint of China or in fact USA???? What’s the beef??? Why not have a national McSporran day.
22

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 10/03/2008 09:07:37
There are no gods but one creator GOD, who is capable of all things including being a 3 persons in one. All believers are Saints (read your New Testament) bestowing sainthood long after death is a Roman invention. Having a disciple and martyr as a patron saint is better than those sassunachs with a Greek and a big lizard.
23

Nellie,

Liverpool 10/03/2008 09:23:48
#6 Are you saying that Christianity brought civilisation? I think we only have the word of Christians for that! Besides, history shows there were civilisations that pre-date the tentacles of Christianity and even of Christ.
What we DO know is that the Christian missionaries brought with them diseases that proved fatal for many of those they sought to save, no to mention death to those who opposed them. Christian martyrs there were but there were also many martyrs of other faiths who died at the sword or stake of many a Christian! Just think of the Crusades, for a start. Plus, the wars BETWEEN CHRISTIANS is suggestive of peoples with little sense of civilisation in them!
24

Hugh T,

Blairgowrie 10/03/2008 09:43:43
The cannonisation and devotion of Saints is simply a Christian alternative to ancient multi-thiestic religions - Egyptian / Greek / Roman and the like.

The early Judeo-Christian fathers were no more than a blend of double-glazing salesmen and bent politicians who are prepared to say accomodate anything to get the sale, gain the cash, and win power over the masses.

If there is a one jealous God up there Saint praying-Christians are in for a hell of a Judgement Day fright.
25

AJ Fife,

10/03/2008 10:29:26
The Rev Dane Sherrard will be the perfect boy to exploit any money making enterprise!

He has a track record.....
26

G,

dundy 10/03/2008 10:42:29
We had a saints day when I was at school in Glasgow that we all loved - it was Saint Hamearlie - patron saint of heating systems....
27

voltaire's janny,

10/03/2008 10:54:28
On the basis of maths, logic and science mostly beyond my comprehension but case hardened by the constant attacks of critics of sufficient intelligence to make an objection, the big bang theory pretty much explains without intervention of a creator, the structure and evolution of the universe to within 10 to the power minus 42 seconds of the creation instant.

This picture is not seriously disputed, but it may take much longer to peer any further or explain how things came to be just so. At every step of this amazing intellectual quest, religion has denied, burned at the stake, tortured, imprisoned - all in the name of absolute truth, revealed to a bunch of power craving accolytes or deluded numpties for two millenia and counting.
28

Furchrissake,

10/03/2008 10:54:31
What about St Fergus?
29

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/03/2008 11:01:11
Isla St Clair?
30

voltaire's janny,

10/03/2008 11:10:01
If you want a mantra to worship, the universe is revealed by:

The darkness of the night
The evident expansion of the universe
The preponderance of hydrogen and helium
Einstein's gravity & the constant speed of light
The microwave background & 15 billion year-old fluctuations.

God is deader that Neitsche
31

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 10/03/2008 11:11:12
#22 Drum major. As the New Testament contradicts itself on several occasions I guess you have to pick and choose which bits to believe. However, sainthood is entirely a post Easter invention. The Celtic saints are no more than famous religious hermits.

The only believable saint is Santa Claus, and he's mythical (well he's stopped stopping in this house).

Scotland needs a saint the way Dracula needs daylight.

Time we all grew up. If we want more days off work then let's have them, but let's not kid ourselves they are holy-days.
32

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/03/2008 11:15:46
Rules

That's kind of offensive to those that do believe in God and Catholicism. And trust me, there are a lot of people who do and we all have the right to practice whatever religion we so choose, whether that's Man Made Global Warming to Voodoo.
33

Socrates2,

10/03/2008 11:23:05
Ceasaig Bheanaichte
34

Socrates2,

10/03/2008 11:23:05
Ceasaig Bheanaichte
35

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:30:14
Rulesbutnotrulers: you have a strange notion of what the Christian religion is, if you persist in defining it by borders that no longer exist, along with a culture that doesn't exist either, and good riddance. Have you no memory of the bog bodies that are occasionally found, or of historical references to what went on in Celtic lands before the advent of Christianity? Or do you live in some fantasy land like The Lord Of The Rings, where there are elves and fairies and knights and magicians. None of them real of course, none of them possible. For people like you, the natural world is apparently too boring to consider as Creation, and you would exclude any idea that wasn't born north of the English border. Strange indeed, considering how much intellectual treasure the West had to import before it could begin to develop and grow on its own. I personally think it's wonderful to rediscover these lost saints, because they were real people, brave people, and good people who knew exactly what they were about and why they had to try to bring the light of Christ to what were in reality dark and savage tribes.
36

Pazuzu,

10/03/2008 11:37:26
How about St. Tennents day?

Many a time I've thanked St. PintofTennents - it's a national thing, every Saturday night.

We have a beer, or twelve then stagger home - and say to ourselves - "what a great night, glad I made it home with thanks to St. Tennents"

"The people who have really made history are the martyrs.”

"If one were to take the bible seriously one would go mad. But to take the bible seriously, one must be already mad. "

Crowley
37

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:38:21
Tules: the New Testament does NOT contradict itself in any substantive or significant way. In fact, the four gospels corroborate each other. Matthew and Mark are almost word for word identical. Luke, who was not an Apostle (nor was Mark), wrote some time after Christ, but he did know at least some of the Twelve and traveled extensively with the greatest theologian of all time: Paul. As a physician and a man of science (such as it was then), Luke seems to be scrupulous in reporting all that he was able to find out, apparently including information from Mary the Mother of Jesus, because other wise he could not possibly have known it. Your puny sophistry leaves you regarded as pitiable by people who are involved in careful Biblical study, but worst of all, it leaves you without any spiritual prop. What has Santa Claus, pray tell, to do with the New Testament? Why should we care if you perpetuate that fairy tale or not? But please, don't equate Santa Claus with the Christian story, because in doing it publicly you merely display your ignorance.
38

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/03/2008 11:40:10
Rules

I promise I never set Martha on you!
39

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 11:41:40
I was hoping there would be some actual evidence for the headline. Unfortunately, I cannot find anything more than suggestions that Bruce was aware of this saint and urgedhis troops on in his name, but then there is no reference to any evidence, and the wishful thinking of some bloke who wrote a book on Celtic Spirituality.

So, anyone got a decent bit of evidence?
40

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:43:18
To believe that there is a Universe existing with black holes and wormholes and galaxies and infinite space, containing a small blue planet inexplicably teeming with life when for millions of miles in every direction there is nothing but barrenness, one would have to be mad too. But unfortunately for unbelievers, the Universe does indeed exist, and the power and majesty of its Creator silently but compellingly makes ridiculous your puny arguments against Him.
41

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:46:00
The saints were real people. Many of them were highly educated for their time, and they thoughtfully considered the likely end they would face by entering into hostile lands occupied by violent, primitive people who worshipped stones and ponds and thought nothing of child sacrifice. They were so filled with belief and zeal and certainty that they risked their lives anyway. You are a beneficiary of their sacrifice, yet you have nothing but contempt for them. This is a terrible commentary on you.
42

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

10/03/2008 11:46:54
Who's that woman that sang Japanese Boy ?

Her.
43

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

10/03/2008 11:48:36
Saint Elmos Fire , Saint Julian Cope ?

Seriously though its an interesting one Historically. Im just back from a trip to Kilmartin, a whole host of scottish history I sadly knew nothing about .
44

Hugh T,

Blairgowrie 10/03/2008 11:54:15
Martha

Sorry to disagree but there are huge contradictions between Mark/Matthew and the other two. If you consider Luke to be the author of 2/3rds of Acts then you can up your contradiction rate 50%. Read Eisenmann (if you have patience) for detail.

The first 5 books of the NT are all Pauline Diaspora related propaganda designed to work against the Judeo-Christian based Jamesian faction, based around the Jerusalem Bishops, in favour of a foreigner-friendly attempt to gain power over the masses for the few in the Empire.

All of the NT can be interpreted as power-based machinations if you take the time to immerse yersel' in early AD politics. It's not hard to do and there's barely a God to be found: it's all basically man against man / my truth is better than your truth / faith is stronger than deeds argument.

Stick to the OT if ye want to find purely God-based politik.
45

Hugh T,

10/03/2008 12:01:50
And have you any evidence for ridiculing 6th century people as pond-worshipping child killers?

You've sure bought into the flimsy generalised blindly-ignorant naive arguments spouted by religious nutters the world over, he generalised. Don't get your History from the Sunday Post.
46

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 12:07:26
It seems that Scottish historians never participate in anything related to Scottish history no matter what the period is on this site.
Is it that few know anything about this period or simply don't want to enlighten anyone.

Maybe it is true that they are stuck in their Ivory Towers after all.
47

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:15:32
Hugh T-- believe what you like. Your comments are really slanted, since you have no proof that the writers of the Gospels sought to propagandize anybody. What the writers thereof said they were about was the recording of some of the highlights of Christ's ministry and the basic narrative of his ministry and death. So either you believe the writers, or you don't. The Gospels are far more alike than different, even John-- who was an apostle, like Matthew, and actually knew and spent quite a bit of time with Jesus of Nazareth.
48

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 10/03/2008 12:17:13
the only folk who will get day of are msps the rest of us get nowt if we take it off we have to give up another one but i do believe we should celebrate a scottish day before the pc crowd take that of us as well incase the muslims or someother migrant religon dont like only last week a school nursery in glasgow banned the kids painting boiled eggs incase it offend someone but as the nursery teacher said we dont have any migrant children at said nursery now she has been suspended for speaking out
49

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 12:19:16
Can someone please explain to me what Celtic Christianity is.
Now I know what Gaelic Christianity throughout the ages starting from Ireland then in Scotland through St.Columba but I am at a loss to understand the rest.

Naturally Welsh is another Celtic language.
50

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:21:39
As propaganda the Gospels fail miserably, so I doubt that was their intent. In fact, these records are blindingly honest. For example, we have the mother and brothers of Jesus coming to get him because they have feared, or have been told (which of these is unclear) that he has gone mad. This is hardly the work of a propagandist, because such a one would never raise the possibility of insanity.
51

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:27:13
brettgallacher: painting eggs in Spring is hardly a Christian tradition. Like the Easter Bunny, colored eggs are a remnant of some pre-Christian pagan practice that was celebrated around the vernal equinox, and no doubt was very closely associated with fertility.
52

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:39:36
Over the Top: The Celts occupied a huge swath of Europe and the entire islands of Britain in the first century AD. They were among the first people in the west to be Christianized as the missionaries moved along the Mediterranean basin from Judea to Spain. Gaelic is the language spoken by Celts in France and Britain. Celtic Christianity in Britain, owing to the distance from Rome and the lack of easy communications, developed more or less on its own until the end of the sixth century AD, when the pope sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to officially Christianize the island. But Christianity really had come much earlier to Britain, probably with Roman soldiers as they came and went from tours of duty there. There may have been some apostolic visit to Britain, but such a visit exists only in legend at this point as any records of such visits either don't exist at all or have not been discovered yet. St. Augustine in 597 AD found a viable parish in Canterbury in the seat of the Saxon king of Kent, whom he converted and baptized in the church, which was later named St. Martin's. The church had been there since before the Saxons had invaded when the Roman army left. It is worth mentioning that St. Augustine landed at Reculver in Kent, on the North Sea, where there had been a Roman fort (its walls can still be seen). Clearly Christianity came to that region with at least in part by the Roman army, especially after the end of the persecutions when soldiers could openly declare themselves to be Christians. Augustine built a monastery there on the site of the abandoned fort, and then went on to Canterbury for more missionary work. This is not the same man as St. Augustine of Hippo, aka Augustine the Great, who lived two centuries earlier. Toward the end of the seventh century, the Synod of Whitby was convened to iron out doctrinal differences that had arisen over the course of centuries between the long-independent Celtic church of Britain and the Romanbasedchurch
53

H215,

New York 10/03/2008 12:47:16
#42 - Hmmmm....that sounds like the beliefs of some CURRENT immigrants. So...how happy are YOU to be preached to by the Finsbury Park crew? Do you believe that THEIR "belief and zeal and certainty" makes their pitch more valid?
54

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 12:51:22
Martha #42 - out o curiosity, who are you reffering to?
55

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 10/03/2008 12:54:16
11# Naw! but I heard he was a bit of a crunchy nut...
56

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 13:00:31
Any intelligent individual will concede that there may well be intelligent life on another planet...in another system....so, say these people and their culture have grown and developed in a godless, worship free society....it is alien to them and they have no comprehension of JC...his ma and da...and all the holy books to be found here, on earth...they have no need to worship something that is not relevant to their culture....what if?...someday, our paths crossed....what would the holy willies tell them?...because after all...surely a god who has visited this planet and left his mark upon it would be a god of the entire universe?...would he not?...or perhaps there is no intelligent life elsewhere eh?...perhaps 'god' only chose our planet?....

Just a wee idea....
57

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 13:01:33
Anyway...wouldnt mind that effigy for my garden pond!
58

Alfie Bett,

10/03/2008 13:04:02
If we are only looking for a new national holiday why not hang on a couple of years when we will have our independence day(something worth celebrating!and with no religious connotations) and make it the friday nearest a date in the summer months so it can be a long weekend with the prospect of half decent weather.
59

Nellie,

Liverpool 10/03/2008 13:04:33
#28 et al. Now, I'm not a religious person and I find it difficult to believe there is a "personal" God. In support of this position, I have long questioned a number of Christian claims and tenants. For example, I find it laughable that Christian theologists decry the Islamic belief that Jesus turned two handfuls of mud into a pair of doves, yet they are quite able to accept Jesus raised people from the dead, that he himself rose from the dead, that he fed 5,000 people with 5 loves and fishes, that he was born to a virgin, etc.! Good, innit! The Muslims simple refuse to accept Jesus was anything more than a prophet, not unlike Mohamed but without the "direct line". However, a search on the Web turned up a scientific paper that demonstrates that "virgin births" probably happen more often than a Christian may care to admit since it has been proven under laboratory conditions, female mammals can reproduce without the egg being fertilised by male sp4rm. Proof that the virgin birth was not a miracle? Not quite! Since the creation of these "virgin" offspring are created solely within the confines of a female genetic code, it does seem impossible for the resultant baby to be male! For that to happen the scientists who undertook this "virgin birth" experiment concluded that had to be a miracle! Mmmm ... challenging food for thought!
60

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 13:27:41
60...or maybe the lassie got up the duff and knew there would be 'hell' to pay should she be found out!...could be a whole nother CONspiracy theory...
61

GP,

10/03/2008 13:30:00
53# Martha - are not most if not all christian festivals celebrated on pre christian days of celebration, including christmas?
In true victor style the christians re-wrote history to suit their needs. Depicting pre-christians as barbarian child killing demon worshipers.
Looking around at today's christian society and hearing of the paedophiles, child killers, murderers in general and the inhumane way these societies treat all other creatures makes me cringe.
As far as teachings are we really meant to believe the rubbish that for example Paul wrote? He could never have met either Jesus or anyone who had met him or his disciples given the time lapse.
Never let facts get in the way of a good read and the christian bible like most other religious books is a good read but keep it in context of both it's time and the needs of the people who created or recorded the stories within it. Then remember the suppressed books and stories that were excluded and think what they might have read like.


62

Hunky Dorey,

10/03/2008 13:39:28
#8 Inoui............ We are talking about saints here,not devils.
63

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 10/03/2008 13:44:30
#60 Nellie.......... I know that Mohamed was married 12 times,his youngest bride being age 12. He did not raise anyone from the dead,but then,would he have had time for anything else?
64

Paul S.,

Mauricetown, NJ, USA 10/03/2008 13:51:45
Martha, Martha,

PLEASE do some real studying — university level work — before you make any more historically incorrect statements about the New Testament. I've done that studying, and can attest to the correctness of much of it being proto-orthodox propaganda.

If you were to become aware of all the early Christian writings, including Gospels, which were not included in what we now call the New Testament, then you would recognize that many of the NT books are essentially attacks on styles of early Christianity which subsequently did not prevail against the virulent attacks of those we now consider orthodox.

Many of Paul's letters contain entreaties to ignore the teachings of others. Well, those others were Christian teachers with different views of Christ than Paul's. The era was filled with widely varied types of Christianity, some just wishing to be left alone and others trying to dominate and coerce. The latter essentially won the day.

Only recently — post Nag Hammadi — have scholars like Ellen Pagels, Bart Ehrman, and many others begun to bring forth the ideas which made for a very different Christianity than that which evolved from early Roman and Eastern Orthodox Catholicism.

Please also read "The Jesus Dynasty", a very important scholarly book on what the term "Messiah" actually meant to contemporaneous Jews, and how that affected the life and ministry of Jesus and his followers.

But PLEASE do the scholarly work it takes to talk about these matters without showing yourself to be rather shrilly uninformed.
65

Hugh T,

10/03/2008 14:02:37
Oh Martha! The apolostic Matthew and the gospel writer are not the same dude. The gospel can't have been written before 130AD unless you believe in miracles.

This is basic stuff even for 8 year-old religious brainwashees, never mind someone with an adult brain.

Commandment #1 - Find ye not your religion in Twinkle or Jackie.
66

Hugh T,

10/03/2008 14:12:52
Martha! Sorry again, but you can't get away with...

"Toward the end of the seventh century, the Synod of Whitby was convened to iron out doctrinal differences that had arisen over the course of centuries between the long-independent Celtic church of Britain and the Roman based church"

Wikipedia may be a fascinating thing, but there was never a long-Independent church of Britian. There was no Britain for a start, and Whitby was for a specialised niche of interest - absolutely nowt to do with most of the Celtic churches in Scotland. Again, and to reiterate the learned Paul S above, if you haven't got a clue - dinnae open yer gub or write mince that a bairn would be ashamed of.
67

Martha,

10/03/2008 14:14:26
Paul S.-- Why is it necessary to insult? Do you think that makes your point more valid? These books to which you refer are scholarly opinion, nothing more. They are not the Scriptures. You remind me of the Pharisees in the New Testament, who were puffed up and intellectually proud, and thought that Jesus could teach them nothing. So they belittled Him. Now, either you are a Christian and believe, or you do not, and all the sophistry you can muster does not amount to a handful of dust. Sophistry also does not change history, and as a matter of fact, I am probably as conversant with history as you, and perhaps even more so. I am well acquainted with the non-canonical "gospels"-- which for very good reasons were excluded from the canon. But back to the Gospels, they tell a very clear story. The story is that when God became man, He moved among people who were poor and ignorant, and people who fancied themselves to be educated and better than their brethren, including Him. He had a great deal to say about these Pharisees and scribes, none of it complimentary. The lowest beggar in the street could discern when a miracle had been worked, and could grasp the simple truth of His statements, but the educated were blinded by their own vanity, and led astray by the religious theories of the time. If they had had that book "The Jesus Dynasty," they would have quoted it to the Son of Man.
68

Martha,

10/03/2008 14:16:37
I guess the island the Romans referred to as "Britannia" never existed then? No, it was not a formal government, but Britannia, aka Britain, was a definite geographic entity, known throughout the world of antiquity.

Hugh T-- I studied the Synod of Whitby at university.
69

Martha,

10/03/2008 14:18:43
Hugh T: if there had not been an independent Christian church operating in Britain, then St. Augustine of Canterbury would never have found a living Christian parish in that kingly seat. But he did, and he baptized the king of Kent in it. That is history. I have no idea if this information appears in Wikipedia or not; you are much more conversant with Wikipedia than I am, and that much is very clear.
70

Bleeding Heart...,

10/03/2008 14:26:35
#12 Well spotted. "St. Johnstone", indeed!

You're also correct to say that Perth was formerly known as "St. John's Toun". I think the Knox party felt that title was too "Catholic", hence the change of name.

But as #21 points out, Knox's Kirk doesn't hold truck with the idea of Saints. That's idolatrous behaviour; surely everyone knows that.

Yon Bruce should have known better, shouldn't he?

71

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/03/2008 14:27:32
Martha

You read Uriels machine? I recommend it to you.
72

Bleeding Heart...,

10/03/2008 14:34:30
#70 Martha - help me out here.

I had understood that there were no DOCTRINAL differences between the Celtic & Roman branches of Christianity, and that the outcome of the Whitby Synod was to agree to adopt the Roman date of Easter and the shape of the cut of the clerical/monastic tonsure..?
73

Martha,

10/03/2008 15:14:36
In basic doctrine no differences were discovered at Whitby; but the tonsure and the date of Easter varied between Ionan and Roman Christianity. There may have been, and probably were, other secondary issues that have been lost in the mists of time. The resolution at Whitby was important, because the Synod brought Northumberland and then subsequently all of Britain under tighter control from Rome. I don't think that at any time the Roman party considered the Ionan party to be in heresy; the differences were concerned with tradition and practice, not doctrine. Essentially Ionan practices in Christianity, which had derived from Irish missionaries in earlier centuries, slowly ceased to exist as the growing power of the Roman church now reached throughout Britain. The catalyst for the Synod was, just as you point out, the dispute over the date for Easter, but more importantly, did Rome in the form of Peter's successors hold the keys to the Kingdom, or not? The answer at Whitby was: yes. Rome and Peter did hold the Keys to the Kingdom, and so Britain and the Picts were brought into the Roman sphere of influence. That this important step would and did influence later points of doctrine cannot be argued.
74

Martha,

10/03/2008 15:15:16
NO, I never read Uriel's Machine.
75

Martha,

10/03/2008 15:24:38
GP__ I regret to tell you that even the Romans, not noted for their gentle behavior, considered the Britons to be savage in the most extreme degree, especially as regards child sacrifice. These were eye-witnesses to Britain as it existed in the first century BCE. They were people who did not quibble to kill, but the gruesome rites of the Britons were shocking even to them. There is certainly a strong impulse among all ethnicities to regard their own ancestors as noble, strong, civilized, etc. and superior to others; but history and archaeology do not bear this out. The Celts in Briton had what was to the patriarchal Romans a disgusting way of passing on leadership of the clan. The aging chieftain, according to several sources I've read, would be challenged by his offspring and fight his son or sons to the death. In Rome, in order for a son to inherit a paterfamilias had to die naturally, and murder was punished (unless you were the sovereign and could do as you liked). Caesar and his army were pre-Christian, so they were not influenced by any later Christian polemics against paganism.
76

Media 1,

cape town 10/03/2008 15:26:17
Was The Bruce's 'blessed Kessog' our patron saint before Andrew?

WHO CARES??????????????

Ancient nonsense
77

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 10/03/2008 15:51:56
Hey Dudes

Its hard to understand that U Dudes can spend so much of Ur time scribing, and talking, about past religious historical events that were based on Beliefs and Faiths.

But yet give lip service, or byte service to the hundred of millions of people, who today, are brutalized by the evil regimes controlling them.

The CCP in CHINA , The Tribal Leaders in Africa, The Religious fanatics of Islam, etc.

Still if u choose the world of 'Beliefs and Faiths" over "Science and Repeatable Experiments" have at it.

The fictional Harry Potter proves, that, the inherent Black Magic Cult is alive and kicking in the minds of vast numbers of Homo Sapiens even today.

Its 8:45 am here in Murrieta ,CA. Blue Sky, and will be 78°F (26°C) today.

GO HILLARY GO.

Barack Hussein Obama......All smoke and Mirrors

John McCain...... Drooling geriatric and WAR monger.

GC




78

GP,

10/03/2008 15:59:18
76# Martha I wouldn't want ot burst your bubble life or whatever capsule you live in. However we have "evidence" you say from whom? People with no axe to grind watching from the side?
No we have "evidence" from those who have exactly the opposite every axe to grind.
Let's see as a child I was told that red indians scalped white folk and did all sort of terrible things.
Then I spent a little time investigating and found the opposite to be true. That is near history so your myths of time history must be accurate then, oh dear more rubbish!
79

Canada,

Canada 10/03/2008 16:00:59
Martha,
You are the most informed and civilized of the bunch. That's why they attack you with ill-mannered jibes.
80

motherload,

montana big sky spirit 10/03/2008 16:10:55
so Jesus said to the pharisees, 'have you read the scriptures???' now what a put down that was because they had memorized the first boringest books of historical measurement ever and he knew it. so who then was the bigger put downer ever, the pharisees or the one who left this planet to hell and back with a sword wound in his side and nail prints in his hands.
i suppose, martha, you would never eat tongue or anything out of an animals mouth but do you like eggs?
the teacher suspended because they were painting easter eggs so pagenly, maybe had a biology lesson out of context. cheers
81

westview,

In front of a scientific ,not magic, computer. 10/03/2008 16:19:31
Martha , we would have had a lot more books to study and admire if the christians had not destroyed the reputidly magnificent library at Alexandria. A place of learning and a depository of knowledge in the ancient world. The christians then as now feared ideas that were not theirs. Just like many superstitious people. They also killed the person in charge, a woman , ( must not allow that in a male dominated religon ), by scraping her skin off with sea shells. Nice love your neighbour tactics. No wonder the dark ages descended for hundreds of years. Now we have folk brought back to life every day in hospitals, using science, not mumbo jumbo. Well at least Britain does not have a saint ,so some progress has been made away from the control freakery of religon.
82

GP,

10/03/2008 16:29:13
Let's be serious now.
Who in their right mind would call anyone Kessog.
Hey Kessog pass the ball.
Hey Kessog do you want sauce.

No I think Andrew is better by a long way.
83

Nellie,

Liverpool 10/03/2008 16:45:53
#83 Dunno about that. After all we have a breakfast cereal of a similar name, as in "pass the Kelloggs". (Do you suppose they are related?)
84

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 17:43:47
6
Can you explain what you mean by civilisation and how were the people who lived there at the time uncivilised.
85

westview,

10/03/2008 17:53:56
Oh no! Saint Tony Blair!!
86

Methalions,

10/03/2008 18:09:07
St Salmond?
87

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:26:36
The cause of the library fire in Alexandria is still, so far as I know, an open question. Blame the Christians if you like. I'm surprised you don't blame the Jews; they usually get hit for every bad thing that happens.

I guess if you think child sacrifice and patricide are civilized, you come from a different galaxy than I do. As for Jesus asking the Pharisees "Have you read the Scriptures," they were lying in wait for him (Luke 19:47-48)hoping to trip him up in a blasphemy so they could take him to the governor of Judea (a Roman) for execution, as blasphemy was a capital offense to the Jews. And, as we know, this is exactly what happened. The blasphemy in question? that He was the Son of God. He said He was, in the most explicit terms possible for his listeners. He declared Himself. They termed it blasphemy, yet He had already fulfilled all the prophecies in the Scriptures which they had committed to memory since childhood-- hence the question to them "Do you read the Scriptures?" Maybe He meant exactly what he said. Maybe the question was not intended to be sarcastic. Maybe it was a hint to them that they should read with more understanding.
88

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:29:19
Westview: my computer is a thing of science too, and not magic. I don't believe in magic. But likewise, I don't believe that my computer either created the universe or can tell me on its own how to live a godly life, or that it will ever take the sins of the world on its shoulders and suffer death on my behalf, so that I will have eternal life.
89

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:31:26
Over the top: civilization is usually defined as the rule of law whereby the weak are protected from the strong, and the individual has rights that cannot be breached by the enormous power of kings and presidents. Were the Celts civilized? Not by our standards, certainly, nor even by those of Rome, that wasn't too delicate about its own standards.
90

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:33:54
GP: Red Indians (we here in North America call them Native Americans or First People) did scalp white people. Where they learned to do this is anybody's guess; some say it was from the whites but I rather doubt it. There isn't a son of Adam on the face of the planet who isn't capable of the most atrocious behavior.
91

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 18:52:30
90
Rome wasn't civilised, how can you say Rome was civilised.
92

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 19:02:30
91...Dont think thats the point there Martha...cowboys and indians...kids playing..indians always the baddies...and we were taught from a young age that it was the indians who were the barbaric savages and