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The race begins for tide power bonanza



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Published Date: 15 November 2008
THE race to develop Scotland's seas into the "Saudi Arabia of marine power" is about to start, with plans for 500 underwater turbines in the Pentland Firth.
The Scotsman can reveal that an Australian company is already preparing a serious bid for the huge tidal farm that it says will power one million homes.

Atlantis Resources wants to be the first to take advantage of an imminent decision by the Cr
own Estate, which owns the seabed, to invite firms to build in the powerful seas off the north coast.

But as Alex Salmond, the First Minister, pins his hopes on tidal power answering Scotland's energy crisis and providing a huge boost to the economy, an expert has warned that politicians are "living on a different planet" if they think the technology will provide the answers.

Dr Tony Trapp, whose company built one of the first tidal devices, told The Scotsman the issue of renewable energy was based on "faith not science". He said four companies in the UK that had tried to develop tidal energy had still not achieved any output.

"It has completely conned the politicians from all parties and the worst people who are being conned are in Scotland," he said. "They've been conned hugely."

Such doubts will not deter Timothy Cornelius, the chief executive of Atlantis Resources, or ScottishPower Renewables, which plans to install up to 20 tidal turbines off the north coast, or about 90 other renewables firms across the world that are expected to be interested.

Such a level of interest means Mr Salmond's aspirations for Scotland to lead the way in the development of tidal technology and to become the green capital of Europe could become a reality.

The Pentland Firth has some of the strongest currents in the world because of the funnelling of tidal flows through a narrow strait. This produces fearsome tidal currents of up to 30km an hour, as well as rips and whirlpools.

"It really is the Saudi Arabia of marine energy, so it's a natural focus for us,'' Mr Cornelius said.

"The north of Scotland is one of the best places in the world where people could possibly want to develop marine technology. It provides everything you could possibly want. There's no better place in the world, in my opinion."

However, he said there were still constraints, in particular the lack of grid access that makes it is difficult for renewables firms to transmit electricity across the country.

Neil Kermode, the managing director of the European Marine Energy Centre, set up close to the Pentland Firth where renewables firms can test prototype devices, said it was crucial Scotland grasped the opportunities of tidal technology, and he believed it was "entirely feasible" for Scotland to lead the way.

"There's no doubt at all about it," he said. "The only thing that worries me is the UK does have a habit of getting to these technological points and then blinking and stepping away from the big challenges."

If Atlantis goes ahead with its 500-turbine project, it will be larger than any other planned anywhere in the world. The next biggest is a proposed scheme in South Korea by Lunar Energy, a British tidal power company, and Korean Midland Power Company, involving 300 tidal turbines, which the firms hope to install by 2015.

But Dr Trapp, after spending £6 million developing a prototype turbine, came to the conclusion there was little potential in tidal energy..

Dr Trapp, the managing director of Engineering Business, believes the few sites that are suitable, with tidal flows that are strong enough, are too far from urban areas, which is where the electricity is needed.

"If you exploited all the tidal energy resource in the UK and the Channel Islands, you might be able to get two gigawatts," he said. "The overall conclusion is it's silly. It's not a sensible use of intellect or financial resources."

He even disagrees over one of the aspects of tidal stream devices often put forward as their key strength – predictability.

The tides follow the same pattern each day, unlike the wind, which blows at varying strengths. But Dr Trapp said that when his company monitored the output of its Stingray device, at Yell Sound off Shetland, it discovered that the output varied day by day.

"What that led me to think was that actually this is quite widely affected by the weather, the wind and the wave environment, and it's not as reliable as we thought," he said.

He said that of four firms in the UK that were trying to develop tidal devices at the beginning of the decade, none had yet provided any output. "The trouble is, it isn't the solution. Tide and wave are trivial in the world energy picture," he said.

Dr Trapp suggested politicians, including Mr Salmond, had been "conned" into believing in renewables.

"These guys are just living on a different planet. They don't question the science. There's this huge religion going on which is to do with renewables which doesn't in any way reflect reality," he said.

Scottish Renewables, the trade body, estimates that the marine green energy industry could employ tens of thousands of people in Scotland by the end of the next decade.

Jason Ormiston, its chief executive, emphasised that the industry was still in its early days, and the construction of a 500-turbine project such as that proposed by Atlantis was still a long way off.

"The industry obviously speculates an awful lot," he said. "Clearly, they will start off relatively small and then get bigger.

"The technology is proven. There's a risk with any new industry like this, but if you speak to the majority of people, there's a consensus that these machines can generate electricity in these environments."

Jim Mather, the energy minister, said: "By maximising every opportunity, we will make Scotland a world leader in marine renewables. We have ambitions to make Scotland the green energy capital of Europe.

"And Scotland's seas can provide 25 per cent of Europe's tidal power and 10 per cent of wave power. Backed by significant government support, developers are investing millions in the testing and deployment of wave and tidal devices to harness that potential."

Pentland Firth's 'epic power is the future'

HIDDEN deep beneath the waves an army of turbines rotate unseen, generating green energy just from the pull of the Sun and the Moon.

This may sound like science fiction but many experts predict it could be a reality in the Pentland Firth within a decade.

The Crown Estate, which owns the seabed, has estimated more than 700 mega watts could be installed by 2020 – the equivalent of about 400 tidal devices.

However, First Minister Alex Salmond has previously said he thinks there is ultimately potential for up to 30 times that amount in the Pentland Firth, the stretch of sea between Orkney and Caithness.

It is this water, with its extremely powerful tides, that gives Scotland its reputation as having the best tidal resources in Europe, with 80 per cent of the UK potential. It has been calculated that at least a third of Scotland's energy demand could be met by tidal renewables.

Atlantis Resources, which has been developing tidal devices for a decade, has built two turbine types, Nureus and Solon.

Nureus is suitable for shallow water up to 25 metres deep and has been generating electricity in a test site in Australia for two years. It uses aquafoils to capture momentum from the flow of water, to drive a massive chain, which generates electricity.

Solon is a deep-water turbine suitable for installation in some of the world's fastest waters, in depths of at least 40 metres.

They are both tidal stream devices, differing from the tidal barrage schemes, such as the proposed Severn Barrage.

Tidal barrages block in water at high tide, before releasing it through flood gates to harvest the energy. In contrast, tidal stream devices do not require any blocking of waterways, and are believed to have fewer environmental impacts as a result.

Initially, Atlantis Resources, backed by US financial giant Morgan Stanley, is expected to lodge plans with the Crown Estate for about 15 tidal turbines capable of generating 30 megawatts.

Timothy Cornelius, chief executive, hopes these will be installed by 2011, and will be used to power a computer data centre near Castle of Mey in Caithness.

This, he hopes, will lead to a far larger tidal farm, of 500 turbines. "The reality is that, if there's the political will to assist developers like us, the technology is now in a state where people are willing to make this industry a real reality," he said.

"We are incredibly confident in our technology. We have built and tested many large-scale turbines to get where we are." Close to the Pentland Firth in the Fall of Warness off the island of Eday in Orkney, is the European Marine Energy Centre (EMEC), a first-of-its-kind facility where prototype devices can be tested.

In May, Irish company OpenHydro, which had been testing its prototype at EMEC, became the first company to success-fully connect a tidal device to the UK grid.

Neil Kermode, managing director at the EMEC, thinks that by 2020 the Pentland Firth could be teeming with tidal energy devices. "By then we will have worked out how to do this in a way that's cost-effective and we will look back in wonder at the time we hadn't bothered to access it," he said.

"There's an epic amount of power in there and I think our grandchildren will ask why we hadn't used it earlier."







The full article contains 1616 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

The Online Scot,

... Herald refugee ... 15/11/2008 00:13:12
This is marvellous news, the Pentland Firth is yet another example of the richness of Scotland's natural resources.

Nuclear, despite Westminster's sabre rattling on planning, is neither wanted in Scotland nor required.
2

qohldr,

15/11/2008 00:14:45
Let the attacks on Dr Trapp commence.
3

jerrymanders,

15/11/2008 00:28:00
What about the devastating effect on marine life? Fish, dolphins and seals chopped to bits. Also, this will make for some really ugly diving scenery which will drive the tourist divers away. A blot on the underwater seascape which must be stopped at the earliest opportunity.
4

,

15/11/2008 01:14:25
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5

,

15/11/2008 01:14:25
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6

pepperjack,

15/11/2008 01:22:37
#3 Have you ever heard of a screen?
Put it in front of the blades and the little fishies just swim by.
7

danielrober,

15/11/2008 01:40:03
Now here it comes.

Now we are back into the 1970's, committes deciding technical issues and blaming civil servants for 'higher' political decisions.

Only one point to make. If it works it don't need a grant. If it needs a grant it don't work. If it don't work - don't buy it.
8

jerrymanders,

15/11/2008 01:44:49
#6

What about the plankton? Surely they have rights too?
9

subrosa,

15/11/2008 01:44:51
Could someone put this video of Alex Salmond on YouTube please. I don't know how to do it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7730701.stm
10

Ken W,

Fife 15/11/2008 01:53:43
Dr Tony Trapp on tidal power: "It has completely conned the politicians from all parties and the worst people who are being conned are in Scotland," he said. "They've been conned hugely."

That woud be the Tony Trapp that runs a windfarm (not a tidal)engineering company in Northumbria?

No vested interests in promoting wind instead, perhaps?

It's just bad journalism not to inform people of this, Scotsman. Its called informing them: you then let your readership decide the worth of his words.
11

,

15/11/2008 01:56:10
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15/11/2008 01:58:07
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jerrymanders,

15/11/2008 02:14:13
#12

There will certainly be plenty of planks on here later!
14

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 15/11/2008 02:29:48
When is Jenny Haworth going to learn to check out the sources of the articles she writes.
15

Dark Lochnagar,

15/11/2008 02:39:03
It is essential that we as a country get to grips and exploit this technology asap. This is our second chance after our first 40 years of oil has been squandered. Well done to AS on CIN, that's why people connect with him. He is one of us. Plankton no more!
16

Warden An' All, Reborn,

15/11/2008 03:07:16
This sounds as if it possibly could tread water, though these gravy train projects would be more trust worthy if they were self funding until the claims for production were some where close to being proven. Far better green power than white elephant on the public purse. The only thing I would be really worried about is the lack of figures on the number of job losses in the area the project will be up and running in. There will be a number of losses, which I'm sure will be off set by a number of jobs created by the project itself, though maybe not by the people who might have lost their livelihoods.
17

,

15/11/2008 03:10:46
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15/11/2008 03:51:08
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19

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 15/11/2008 05:27:07
#7 Well said.
Chopping fish to bits. One could make the ovious connection about having a 'fish and chip shop' stationed nearby to run off the electricity generated.
Seriously. Use the screen (but it would need to be kept clean though that could be devised) then have large turbines and spin them slowly like the windfarms do. Haven't seen heaps of chopped up Golden Eagles.
20

ZipptJeffrey,

Castle 15/11/2008 06:10:57
Considering that Scotlands population is on the decline and that Scotland exports a lot of unwanted electricity, with current technology that works just fine, i dont see why we need this new technology. Its an unneccessary gimmick that will get bogged down in legal tape and money fittered away with nothing to show for it. I see an aquatic version of the Edinburgh tram fiasco developing me thinks.
21

danielrober,

15/11/2008 06:52:53
# 15 Dark Lochnagar,

This will be nothing more than a technological raid. The material science is not up to the task of building in the Pentland. As for maritime insurance that's leagues away.

The companies will come in a repeat he same cause of actions as building companies have done. Subsidise pouring concrete, leave the hard technical to the Brits and deliver late.

During that time the handful of UK companies, solving the hard technical problems will be, 'hired' by xxx national companies, using Scot/UK money. Of course after the project they get to keep world wide patent/sales/manufacture rights and we get some bits of turning at very high costs.

I'm really surprised you Alex.S i never thought you were that desperate, to fall for this.
22

danielrober,

15/11/2008 06:56:39
# 19 Stewart_in_Oz,Alexandra Hills

I think you mean # 6. I'm sure your not referring to bypassing new immigration rules, so you can run riot in the EU engineering sector again.
23

,

15/11/2008 07:28:14
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24

Keyboard supporter,

15/11/2008 07:43:49
Tidal power - utter falacy - only rivalled in its ability to ill consume funds from the public purse, by wind turbines which are wholly inefficient despite the protestations of the treehuggers.

If "der fuhrer" Salmond buys this blox he's less credible than i already thought - he's merely lucky that the opposition consists of the likes of Jim Murphy - a spectacularly sycophantic buffoon.

Nuclear power, a la France, is the only way to go with present realistic technology
25

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/11/2008 08:01:58
I see Centrica is pulling out from Wind Farm Technology.

They have said its too expensive.

This aligned with the fact that the Pentland Firth technology is only at the R&D stage it looks like Nuclear is the way to go.
26

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 15/11/2008 08:09:25
No-one mentions the elephant in the room in this one. An AUSTRALIAN company plans to (possibly) exploit this opportunity. What a third world country we are that we're unable to do it ourselves. Our schools and universities should be churning out the engneers and apprentices to make us the world leaders in this field. What sort of 'independent' country would we be that we can't even exploit our own natural resources? No better than poor Angola, living off the crumbs dropped by the Chinese and the multinationals.
27

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/11/2008 08:31:28
Until someone invented the combustion engine petroleum spirit was totally useless for transport.
It is the same with wind and wave power.
28

John Cameron,

St Andrews 15/11/2008 08:32:39
I think our Great Leaders have gone completely mad. We are offered one insane idea after another. I wonder if Salmond has been talking to that other Scottish fantasist, Gordon Brown? What lunacy will be on offer next week? Hope subsides and only curiosity remains.
29

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 15/11/2008 08:40:50
Dr Tony Trapp is right to warn that submarine turbine technology has several problems to solve.

He is quite WRONG to try to discourage careful research and development. New ideas often takes many years and pounds to bear the fruit the theory promises.

Renewables are the answer. Nuclear is not, as it depends upon finite resources and its wastes cost so much to deal with that it is a waste of money. Just try to find out where and how the French store their wastes. They won't tell you. Ask why not!

Submarine electrical turbine technology is THE answer for us. We should be designing, building and selling these devices around the planet. We already have the marine technology and skills.

As to killing fishes? Quite the opposite! These turbines have very slow turning blades and fish can safely breed in their shadow as fishing boats will steer well clear of the area.
30

tommy,

belfast uk 15/11/2008 09:02:20
.......THE race to develop Scotland's seas into the "Saudi Arabia of marine power" is about to start, with plans for 500 underwater turbines in the Pentland Firth.....
Never underestimate the power of the sea

Results for new state of the art turbine in Strangford Lough with 7.5 knot current-note two blades ripped off
picture taken by myself at http://tinyurl.com/5z74gy
31

Unimpressed one,

15/11/2008 09:14:28
"These guys are just living on a different planet. They don't question the science. There's this huge religion going on which is to do with renewables which doesn't in any way reflect reality," he said.

With this expert assessment, and the fact that we are aiming to reduce our 'carbon emissions' by 80%, we are on schedule to be the Albanian basket case of the world not the Saudi Arabia.
32

Boab,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 09:36:18
It might work, it might not. Scots need to get into the habit of taking risks. This sounds like it's worth pursuing.
33

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 15/11/2008 09:52:03
What is the betting that all of the funding for this next loonie tunes scheme will derive 100% from yet another stealth tax on your home energy bills. Anyone who has seen what the Northern seas can do to an oil rig or a big trawler can predict what will happen to 'turbine blades' anchored in the Pentland Firth. They will last until the first big winter storm - then the Aussie's will be flying back to Syndney with big bags full of cash and smiles on their faces. Scotland will be left with a lot of rusty wreckage on the seabed and a new forest of pylons polluting the landscape.

The answer to the energy crisis is NOT to generate more high-tech energy production schemes; it is to REDUCE DEMAND by conservation, insulation, new technology like LED's and to hold the UK population to a sustainable level. Another 10 million third world immigrants predicted by the govt over the next 20 years will blow away any hope of sustainable use of energy, or housing, or schools, or hospitals, of food. Wake up and get real.
34

Buspass,

Edinburgh 15/11/2008 10:10:01
Let's hope that from the word 'go', the cables linking to the grid are put underground. and this is costed in.
We can then extend the policy to the whole countrry.
35

Greenheatman,

TAIN 15/11/2008 10:10:21
Dr Trapp is bang on in what he says. The tide is so predictable that I can predict with 100% certainty that power from the Spring tide occurring today will be reduced to 1/8 in about 7 day's time. I can predict that it will then increase to give full power again around 7 days after that and so on into infinity.

Another prediction I can make with the same certainity is that these simplistic electro-mechanical machines will never produce electricity at full rating for more than 4 hours at a time - and that is on the optimistic side.

In short, these crass and ill-informed comments above are not very helpful.

......... Saudi Arabia? Bah Humbug!
36

,

15/11/2008 10:15:38
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37

noswod,

Honestas 15/11/2008 10:22:33
Its the next big thing, after microelectronics and biotech/life sciences what can save Scotalnd aye its windmills and dustbins in the seashores. Mair Scotch mist brought to you by the Scottish dependency elite using the Southern Britons money to plant windmills in the sea. When these all start to corrode and the wires statrt to disintergrate in aboot 5-7 years suddenly its another £5bn to replaace them but the elite will have moved on by then to their next project to burn money they don't have to earn giving the Scots more false hope.
38

brownlie,

15/11/2008 10:25:10
35 Greenheatman

Is your calculation based on normal tide flow and does it take account of where two tides meet in narrow channels?

One of Dr Trapps objections was that the proposed areas were too far from urban areas. This factor, obviously, precluded any oil exploration in the North Sea? explora
39

Linda,

Edinburgh 15/11/2008 10:26:49
Danielrober # 7

The biggest subsidy junkies is the Nuclear Industry.
40

brownlie,

15/11/2008 10:27:19
Does Business Engineering have any input into the "defence" industry?? Now, who would need their expertise in that field?
41

Nit-Picker,

Hawick-in-the-Hole 15/11/2008 10:44:01
#19 - slow, like wind turbines? the wind turbines around here have a tip speed of the order of 100mph.
Even intermittent power from "renewables" will make some saving in emissions; maximum tidal flow is bound to coincide with tea-time a few times a month...
42

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 15/11/2008 11:10:38
Why can't the Scottish 'government' harness all the 'hot air' created by the SNP? Or the UK Parliament? They're Scottish too!
43

,

15/11/2008 11:18:10
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44

Unimpressed one,

15/11/2008 11:21:17
#39 But at any rater nuclear power works and the French have the cheapest power in Europe. Scotland however is being led by a bunch of nationalists numpties.
45

Greenheatman,

TAIN 15/11/2008 11:23:50
Browlie 38# asks ""Is your calculation based on normal tide flow and does it take account of where two tides meet in narrow channels?""

The 'problem' with tidal stream is that the velocity of the zenith Spring tide drops to around half of that during the nadir Neap tide. This cannot be avoided and all tidal systems, including my own Gentec venturi, is subject to this stark reality. Now, in the energy equation velocity is cubed so in the Pentland Firth the max Spring tide velocity is 8m/s ; cubed it is 512.
At the other end of the tidal range the Neap tide velocity is now 4m/s; cubed it is 64.

As all other terms in the equation are constant the extractable power is 64/512 or one eighth of the zenith Spring tide.

There are, of course, some people who think that electricity dumped randomly onto our grid subject to the (predictable) variations in the tide and vagaries of the weather is a good thing - and actually believe that the 'every little helps' approach will save our planet. I don't!

The road we are on with these simple marine and wind turbines producing unwanted and generally unused electricity out of phase with demand - unless by accident- is a dead end.

#35 - I suppose the system your pushing is (of course!)more reliable efficient and cheaper?

http://www.greenheating.com/

yerright.

Shouldn't that be "I suppose the system you're pushing....." I was not 'pushing' my system because you and your kind would not understand it anyway. But I will say that any system that can deliver continuous base load, load following and peak shaving from intermittent renewables like wind, wave and tides isn't going to be cheap. I can therefore confirm that my system will be a bit more expensive to build - but the prize will be green - too-cheap-to-meter electricity with billions of tonnes of desalinated water as a by-product on our potable water deprived planet.

But hey, what have you come up with but inane sarcasm?
46

brownlie,

15/11/2008 11:30:40
46 Greenheatman

The reason I asked is that, between the island I was born on and the mainland, where the two tides meet in a narrow channel, irrespective of the time of day, the force developed will temporarily impede the process of a boat, no matter how powerful, in it's tracks. Is this unique?
47

Greenheatman,

TAIN 15/11/2008 11:37:41
Well, although I would be interested to see that, it may well be unique. Whereabouts?
48

,

15/11/2008 11:40:45
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49

brownlie,

15/11/2008 11:41:09
48 Greenheatman

It is between Scalpay and Kyles-Scalpay in the Western Isles. The two tides meet almost directly under the bridge between the two.
50

danielrober,

15/11/2008 11:50:09
# 39 Linda,Edinburgh

I quite agree, but really what is the difference between a crack head on radio active sh#t, and a stoner poofing his life away on eco contacts.

Both are extremes been presented to Scotland/UK. We get offered super-nuclear argghhh - 2000MW (in you face) or Hard Green renewable energy awwwe - 2000MW (be at peace). Both require vast amounts of government cash, because ethey don't work very well. Mean while our competition are building, British style small power stations 50MW-300MW in their own countries.

I'm not a saint i like decent scotch, its lasts ages and a beer or more at the week :-). But i guess the extremists are more entertaining o exciting. The engineering i offer is the kind your grandmother would want you to date, nice, safe, reliable, i give life ago and i can be fun. These big guys TIDAL VERS NUCLEAR, are the guys you experience and then regret when you grow up. We just have to hope that they don't knock our economy up.
51

luckyman,

Glasgow 15/11/2008 12:01:33
ROFL

fantastic comments from most of you, they've brightened up my day no end
52

ARP,

Scotland 15/11/2008 12:21:59
Neil Kermode, managing director at the EMEC, says it all "by 2020 the Pentland Firth could be teeming with tidal energy devices. By then we will have worked out how to do this in a way that's cost-effective..."

In short - we have NOT yet worked it out and until we do, if ever we do, we'd better invest in a physics course at the OU just for starters.
53

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15/11/2008 12:23:13
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15/11/2008 12:24:41
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15/11/2008 12:26:50
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Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 15/11/2008 12:28:27
Propellor blades have been used under the ocean for over 100 years by now. Early models did have teething problems, of course. Aeroplanes have been using propellors for nearly as long. They too had problems. But problems can be solved.

Submarine electrical turbines are the future. Nuclear energy is the past and only for the Luddites.
57

danielrober,

15/11/2008 12:47:11
# 57 Rulesbutnotrulers

No doubt the tidal turbine work, but 500 off bat. That's a heck of a leap. Lets see some units last a few winters first before huge contracts are signed up. Why break an industry with expectations before the ball even gets rolling.

I'm also worried about seabed grabs. The first people to make money for wind turbine were not builders or operators but people with powerful friends. Sites had power cables dug a few inches below the soil, a blank block of concrete put on a hill - then sold as a 'partially developed site'.

The Pentland is the best site in Europe, so why sell it to one or two golden companies. That just not fair.
58

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15/11/2008 12:54:59
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15/11/2008 13:11:22
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15/11/2008 13:12:48
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15/11/2008 13:13:38
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62

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/11/2008 13:17:02
Sounds like an environmental catastrophe waitin to happen if they let this go ahead - not to mention being a hazard to shipping.

These so-called "green" alternatives are anything but green - it's about time people realised that.

Tidal power plants reduce tidal flow in their immediate vicinity. This can severely disrupt ecosystems which depend on being periodically covered by water; resulting changes in fisheries or shellfish beds may result in adverse economic effects. Tidal flow elsewhere along the coast increases - thus casing it's own environmental concerns.

Before any scheme of this size is implemented a full environmental audit should be carried out on its possible impact on the ecosystem.
63

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/11/2008 13:17:13
Sounds like an environmental catastrophe waitin to happen if they let this go ahead - not to mention being a hazard to shipping.

These so-called "green" alternatives are anything but green - it's about time people realised that.

Tidal power plants reduce tidal flow in their immediate vicinity. This can severely disrupt ecosystems which depend on being periodically covered by water; resulting changes in fisheries or shellfish beds may result in adverse economic effects. Tidal flow elsewhere along the coast increases - thus causing it's own environmental concerns.

Before any scheme of this size is implemented a full environmental audit should be carried out on its possible impact on the ecosystem.
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15/11/2008 13:18:54
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/11/2008 13:19:06
#51 The energy debate is so polarised - on the one hand we have the pro-nuclear lobby on the other we have the renewable nuts.

The truth is that both have their environmental problems that neither will acknowledge.
66

danielrober,

15/11/2008 13:20:26
# 59 Joe-kerr

I respect your comment, but.

We have a habit of developing technology, without the back up to deliver. We lose the launch window, another company, 50 more jobs and then see 5000 jobs kicked off in another country. Again and again, we over stretching resources, then lose.

Its better to have a small industry that meets our own needs, with maybe some exports rather than another ego match. Sure I'm cautious, but i'm also experienced in these things. Small steps more along the Danish model rather than another lets take on the world rubbish.

Tidal Tubine offers a good deal, but only if we 'keep' the jobs this time. Other wise its better to spend the money on insulation.
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/11/2008 13:25:20
#66 There is evidence that this happens. There are already large-scale tidal plants in the Bay of Fundy between the Canadian provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. The Annapolis Royal Generating Station has been studying the different effects. Some of the problems include accelerated shoreline erosion as well as increased siltation and heavy metal and pesticide contamination due to lack of regular river/tidal flushing.
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/11/2008 13:34:30
#69 That might be fine if we could return the sites to their previous state. The problem with Tidal power stations is that they alter the ecosystem so much that that is practically impossible.

It would the environmental equivalent of having a sex change - once the change happens you can never go back to the way things were before.
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brownlie,

15/11/2008 13:53:26
48 Greenheatman

Is my claim at 50 possible or is my memory playing trick with me? I don't think it is but the two tides do meet there but are there times, which I have never noticed, when these meetings result in a dead calm.
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The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

15/11/2008 13:53:39
#78 I did not say the tides would be stopped - I said that they would be reduced. The research carried out by Annapolis Royal Generating Station showed that Tidal power plants can cause a change in tides of +/- 1m. That is enough to cause a major change in the ecosystem along the coasts in the vicinity of the power plants.
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The Strategist,

15/11/2008 14:18:56
Of course the other issue is that it is the "Crown Estate" that will decide where things go and how much ground rent they will charge on behalf of HM Treasury.
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Martyk,

15/11/2008 14:42:04
26 ; The elephant in the room is not simply that it is an Australian company that wishes to implement this project with all that implies on Scottish entrepeneurship. Oh no. The other elephant in the room is right at the end of the article. The Irish. Are we destined forever more to come up with a possible economic field to boost the nation only to find they are there first.?
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Sanny,

Upwey 15/11/2008 15:22:37
There is nothing like a new technology to bring out the Luddites and The Flat Earth Society from their holes.

Why is it that this nation, Scotland, once known for its Entrepreneurs, Engineers and all round problem solvers, now seems to be full of Technology knockers? We seem to have bred a section of the community that are ‘gifted’ in finding problems but incapable of finding solutions.

Perhaps I show my age when I say that, as a young Engineer, it was instilled into me that a problem was a question in search of an answer, if you looked long enough and hard enough you would find the answer. Is this what 300 years of subjection has brought us down to?

To the Knockers I say go to EMEC and see the work being done there and the advances made. Look at the funding and see the parsimony practiced by the UK government. The Perlamis, developed in Scotland, is working successfully off the coast of Portugal. No money or other support was available to launch it from Scotland.

I believe it was Dr. Salter, of Salter Ducks fame, that calculated that the Pentland Firth has the potential to supply almost twice the entire power demand of the UK. So why do we need Nuclear power anywhere in these islands? Or is that just to satisfy the needs of Mr. Brown’s brother, or more properly the need of his position in the Nuclear Industry.

Much is made of the transmission problems and they are significant but resolvable. Transmission losses can be reduced by moving heavy demand industries nearer to the supply. Nothing new in that, industry has always grown up close to its energy supply. It would resolve depopulation of the Highlands!

We should divert some of the income from oil into the development of tidal and similar technologies where the return would be better than spending on WMD or fighting people with whom we had no argument.
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Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 15/11/2008 15:31:52
Sorry my location seems to be fixed by the Scotsman:

On another note; I worked as a young Engineer in the early days of the UKAEA: Dounreay, Harwell and Winfrith. The cost of developing this technology was astronomical and the operating costs are still huge. However the eventual decommissioning and disposal costs make even these costs seem insignificant.

Only an idiot or a criminal would consider using Nuclear. but then I think - we're talking Mr. Brown!!
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Greenheatman,

TAIN 15/11/2008 15:45:04
""What kind would that be? Businessmen with their own agenda rubbishing one project in favour of theirs?""

The kind I was averring to was the kind of clueless armchair engineers with a little bit of knowledge.

I not that not one of you stated that I had a valid point when comparing the power between Springs and Neaps. Why let reality get in the way?
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Ugly George,

15/11/2008 15:47:40
Okay let's go.

This is something I've been saying for years but no one would listen.

Shetland has a butt load of oil!

The English Channel has a butt load of oil!

Rockall alone has as much as the Middle East!

The Pentand Firth has a butt load!

Shetland has a field that is so big, it streaches from Iceland to Norway!

Experts agree, we have more oil than the whole of Islam , but to get it we need to get busy, build Refineries, build Nuclear Power Plants, build Pipelines and so on.

We have the oil, but Eco-Butt kisser Salmond here doesn't want us get it, at least not untill he gets Scotland it's so called F R E E D O M - Freedom to spend it all on Scotch pies and to hell with the English.

The best thing about this oil, is that for now it is Brit Oil - the faster we harvest it, the less there will be for the SNP.
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Sanny,

Glasgow and Algarve 15/11/2008 16:09:34
109 Greenheatman,TAIN

Before resorting to insults, addressing people as arm chair engineers, you need to be aware of the standing of the individuals to whom you direct these remarks.

I have already written a critique on the information contained at your site, or at least the site you refered too in a previous post. If, or when, I receive a response then and then only will I be able to judge what kind of engineer you are; based on the validity of your claims for your alleged invention.

I fear your claims for your venturi system may well fall into the same category as those who claim to run cars on water. At best, mistaken; at worst, an attempt to con people into parting with their money. Pending your response I will maintain an open mind and be delighted to stand corrected.
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Sanny,

Glasgow and Algarve 15/11/2008 16:29:30
111 sm753,

Given that my talent, or lack there of, as an engineer is an unknown quantity to you, I must assume this reference is intended as an insult! If this is the case I must inform you that you have completely missed your mark. I have long since retired, after what I consider to have been, a long and successful career.

I note the report you cite is yet another consultancy/ civil service report. If you had read as many of these reports as I have you would have long since learned that they start with the desired conclusion then find the ‘facts’ to support them. On the other hand academic reports are subject to peer review and a generally more trustworthy. I note that the site you offer contains only a reference to a report and not the report itself.

I am certain that if you were to search the web you will find many such reports giving many and conflicting opinions. May I suggest that you contact the university’s and or the companies that are working at the marine energy research facility in the Orkneys for more reliable figures.
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dude,

wishaw 15/11/2008 17:13:58
'NATIONAL EMBARRASSMENT' as the relevation that Gordon Brown is an orangeman, was a member of the apprentise boys, now we all know where his hatred of Scotland comes from. How can a man with his extremist views become PM and actively destroy Scotlands in any way he can " i will do anything to prerserve the union"
in the name of 'brittishness'
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StopTheNumpties,

before they numpt again 15/11/2008 17:52:55
I'm not taking a side on this until Lord Albert Gore of Nobel tells us whether it's a good thing or not. He is a scientific genius based on his mastery of the Powerpoint Oracle, is he not?
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Conan the Librarian™,

15/11/2008 18:06:48
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And you say you're not AM2? ;-)
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danielrober,

15/11/2008 19:00:21
# 107 Sanny,Upwey

I agree with the principle of what you are saying and sure we have more than enough engineers to go for it and the young guys are more than ready. But there is a bigger picture.

Your generation made nuclear work, by solving all the little problems, some close relatives of mine were very involved. If those were commercial companies and not government departments, each one of those 1000 departments would be a £5 million company - at least. It was 'never' even attempted to capitalised upon this work, because they guys running the project did not rely on engineering to pay their bills.

Now the same technology developed and made to work by British teams is sold back to use for a fortune. The German, French and Japanese nuclear power stations are all based on designs, put forward and made to work by the British.

Sure we can save the planet but why keep on making other rich. Why not make money ourselves - that's right I'm 'trade' and proud of it. Is Scotland and the SNP really ready to launch of an xxxx company, just for the ego.
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danielrober,

15/11/2008 19:33:18
# 134 sm753

Love to differ.

The American design your talking about, was not American. It was a UK system called Merlin if i remember correctly it was small, effective and it worked. The hading over paid off a massive chuck of our war debts. To tired to search for the output, but it was around 20MW.

Our guys then 'sorry' got bored and headed of into the gas cooled realm of business. I think the designs were given as gifts/deals to France and Germany in the late 1950's or early 1960's. Japan was the most open and honorable,over the technological handover.

I could find out the exact time it was not a national secret, it was an encouragement for them not to do deals with the USSR at the time. An act of genuine kindness 50 years ago which we are still paying for.
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danielrober,

15/11/2008 20:32:14
# 136 sm753

It was a small UK company, that solved many of the problems, getting the system to work. Flow, control, orientation and other delicious problems. After all the devils in the detail but so are the profits.

That's my fear, some small department or company working away late at night, away from the lawyers and public view - solving problems. I have no beef with the past, those were terrible times, what had to be done had to be done. But why repeat the past.

Out of note it was the Japanese who made the first wave energy breakthroughs, with little navigation buoys very impressive.

The French and German designs are based on UK ones, it was just not socially acceptable at the time to say so. Different times - pre EEC.
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danielrober,

15/11/2008 22:54:20
# 140 sm753,

I have the details floating around somewhere. Maybe the next energy comes up I'll have found the right shelf or box. Nuclear has been a 'genuine' UK success, one that was very much cold shouldered by others. I believe at the time the general attitude was 'no one liked a sma+t ars+'.

Shame, such a loss ;-(
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danielrober,

15/11/2008 22:57:08
# 140 sm753,

Of course if i find commercial value in the information i won't put the details up. Business is business and i have kids to raise. I'm sure you understand.
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mike3,

16/11/2008 12:31:43
I suppose if lighting crofts is the main requirement then a few wind turbines could be a good idea..... or maybe just run a cable from nuclear stations further south.
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Call for rational arguments,

Edinburgh 17/11/2008 10:58:54
There are at least two depressing aspects to this article and the discussion thread associated with it. Firstly, it is disappointing to read Tony Trapp's comments, which reflect his own disappointment at failing to get his Stingray device to work properly. This reflected underlying failings in the device concept rather than with renewable energy and, specifically, tidal current energy.
Detailed analysis of the Pentland Firth suggests that, even if we limit energy extraction to a level at which the flow speed reductions are less than the natural short period turbulence, the Firth could supply a peak output exceeding 12GW, with an average output of approximately 5GW. There are, of course, natural time domain fluctuation but these are essentially predictable. Weather effects on the bulk movement of water in a large body of water like the Firth are effectively insiginificant unlike smaller channels!
The predicatability of tidal current energy will ultimately lend itself very conveniently to strategic energy storage through, for example, pumped storage and compressed air. Not enough research is being carried out in support of these technologies and I would urge government to look at these in detail.
The second disappointment is the lack of seriousness with which the "posters" are taking our energy environment. Why should our economy, employment and energy supply be the subject of such ill informed and cynical rants. I find that very depressing
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Drummer1,

Troon 17/11/2008 11:31:08
Dr Trapp, jealousy won't get you anywhere, just because you failed in harnessing tidal energy that others will no doubt succeed in doing.

The most annoying element of criticism from dorks is they don't offer any alternative viable solutions.
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fred bear,

17/11/2008 11:33:14
#149

It is truly depressing that arguments, complete with the arithmetic (such as provided by SM753) is rejected by others who remind me of my seven year old and will not believe what they don't want to be true (Joe-kerr and others of his stripe who prattle on about Tibet). I estimate the score to be about 10-nil to SM753. Well done SM.

It may turn out that tidal stream generation can make a useful contribution in the future, allied perhaps to storage technology (compessed air, heat or whatever). However, it is perverse to suppose that this can be taken from R&D scale to the equivalent of several large power stations in a helpful time scale, and it may never be able to. Over the next decade or so, Hunterston, Torness and large combustion plants such as Longannet will close.

What is the Plan B if the Pentland Firth cannot beharnessed?
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Call for rational arguments,

Edinburgh 17/11/2008 12:21:59
The SDC report on tidal energy represents an interesting but, especially in the case of their analysis of tidal current technology, essentially introductory and non specialist document. Regretably it relies on a large number of non peer reviewed documents and ignores a large bank of specialist peer reviewed material.
Their imput to the argument should be seen a a useful primer to the subject rather than a definitive text. In particular, their energy assessment of the Firth was based upon the now largely discredited "kinetic energy flux" approach to resource assessment, while more advanced peer reviewed documents take into account the "total" flux. Just what is the total capacity of the Firth to deliver energy is still a matter for research and survey but it is now possible state with confidence that is exceeds the SDC figure considerably!
With respect to timescales for development, the recently published "Path to Power" document by the BWEA and NPower suggests that 3GW of wave and tidal energy capacity can be installed by 2020. This represents a considerable potential for economic development but should NOT be used as part of a pro or anti nuclear energy argument. It reflects, however, confidence in a new energy industry.
It should be noted in passing that there are presently 2 tidal current devices installed in UK waters, which are both generating energy into the grid. The SeaGEN device in Northern Ireland, contrary to misinformation in the thread, is working, albeit not to its full capacity. There is also a device built by Open Hydro generating power at EMEC, also exporting into the grid!
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fred bear,

17/11/2008 13:08:46
"With respect to timescales for development, the recently published "Path to Power" document by the BWEA and NPower suggests that 3GW of wave and tidal energy capacity can be installed by 2020"
"It reflects, however, confidence in a new energy industry"

So, we go by industry claims rather than other contrary reports, and don't bother with a Plan B. Hope it works, or the lights go out. Personally, I find it unbelievable that the technology can be taken from R&D to the equivalent of 3 large Powers stations in 12 years. It should be remembered that proof of the technology includes establishing reliablity, costs of maintenance, effect on marine mammels etc.
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Call for rational arguments,

Edinburgh 17/11/2008 13:16:30
To Fred Bear
Why are you trying to generate an argument, where none exists?
No one should be using confidence in a new industry to support their arguments for and against nuclear power! I certainly am not!
Maybe it will not be possible to reach 3GW installed capacity by 2020 and no-one is saying that is guaranteed. Personally I believe we will need nuclear energy to bridge the gap between a fossil economy and post fossil environment.
There is no reason for agressive arguments in an issue of such importance as our future well being!
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fred bear,

17/11/2008 13:55:18
cfra
I do apologise for my brusque manner: i was not seeking to preciptate a conflict between us. The apparent direction of your points (there is more tidal flux than the SDC and SM753 was suggesting, the reference to industry reports indicating 3GW can be installed by 2020, the reported level of confidence in the technology) led me to misinterpret your position.

There seems to be little between us, we recognise that this area may make a contribution in the future, but that sensible risk mitigation plans need to be in place in case it doesn't.

Once again, I apologise, I spend some time posting to these boards responding to people who believe they can change the laws of physics by constantly spouting engineering nonsense. Some require an agressive approach, but I try not to be obnoxious.
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John C.,

ENGLAND 20/11/2008 12:33:49
Hello everybody.

I am strongly in favour of the utilisation of tidal power. However, it seems to me that there has not, as yet, been sufficient investigation into the most efficient method of harnessing the available power. Consequently, the industry can easily be dominated by individuals and large companies that have become established in related fields but are as inexperienced as the rest of us in this particular type of work.

If inefficient methods are allowed to become accepted as the best way forward, the world as a whole will never reap the maximum benefit from the vast amount of power that is generated by the tides. In the U.K. at present, very little encouragement is given to individuals and small businesses that need facilities whereby their designs might be tested. As a result, the concept of open competition is virtually non-existent in the development of tidal power in the U.K. and this is a most unfortunate and unsatisfactory state of affairs.

For example, there are those who believe that it is very unwise to think that the same principles apply to the designs of wind-turbines and water-turbines alike. Furthermore, some of us are of the opinion that electricity from tidal power should be used on location to produce liquid hydrogen that could easily be transported by tankers to coastal depots where it could be put into smaller user-friendly containers. Those tankers could themselves be powered by hydrogen.

In order to take full advantage of this unlimited supply of power, it is essential that we combine our ideas and take the industry forward in the most efficient manner.

Best Wishes.

J.
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Hales Energy Group,

Sussex 22/11/2008 11:09:02
With the greatest of ease, a dolphin TRANSMITS power to the water via its tail in order to propel itself forwards. However, the “Stingray” and “Pulse Stream” devices are attempting to ABSORB energy through the pressure of the water on the “tail” and this involves totally different principles of physics.

Similarly, even in very fast tidal flows, most of the horizontal-axis propeller-type tidal turbines do not achieve particularly good results. Whereas a propeller, turned by a powerful engine, can easily push thousands of tonnes of vessel through the waves, a propeller-type turbine (in contrast) has to collect the force of the water on each blade’s capture-area and convert that force into rotation. At present, the majority of such turbines have been designed with inadequate capture-areas, so only a small amount of energy is absorbed from the total area that is swept by the water. Consequently, these turbines are effective only in tidal areas such as The Bay of Fundy or The Pentland Firth.

Until Tidal Turbine designers return to basic principles and utilise appropriate tow-tank primary testing, a great deal of time and money will be wasted before we eventually get it right.

http://www.hales-turbine.co.uk
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Hales Energy Group,

Sussex 06/12/2008 11:41:35
HALES TURBINE (TIDAL POWER) DISCUSSION PAGE

The development of the Hales Turbine is now openly discussed on the following dedicated web page.

http://www.setforever.org/forums/topic/the-development-of-paul-hales-tidal-and-river-water-turbine

We would be most grateful if you would be so kind as to add some comments to the discussion.

 

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