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The by-election that could bring down Brown

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Published Date: 30 June 2008
GORDON Brown was last night warned that his premiership was unlikely to survive the loss of the Glasgow East by-election so soon after the resignation of Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader.
Already under pressure over deserting party donors and a humiliating fifth place behind the British National Party in last week's Henley by-election, Mr Brown had to cope with the loss of Ms Alexander – an ally and supporter – who quit as leader of
the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament over the weekend.

Many in the Labour Party now believe victory for the Nationalists in Glasgow East – one of the safest Labour seats in the UK – could force Mr Brown out of 10 Downing Street.

One senior Labour source at Westminster said last night that he believed the Prime Minister would have to go if Labour failed to hold on to a safe seat in the East End of Glasgow. The vote could be held as early as 24 July.

"If we lost, it would be a disaster. I think we will hold on but if we didn't, he (Mr Brown] would resign," the source said.

John Curtice, professor of politics at Strathclyde University, said it would be "devastatingly bad news" for Mr Brown if the SNP won the Glasgow East by- election.

He said: "Gordon Brown's position is not very secure and it is perhaps crossing the minds of some of his colleagues that they might have to say to him, 'Look you can't necessarily carry on'.

"He does need to shore up his position; I don't think he can withstand another unexpected crisis. That might just bring him down."

SNP leaders believe the Glasgow by-election – triggered by the resignation of MP David Marshall for health reasons – is within their grasp given the turmoil in the Scottish Labour Party following Ms Alexander's resignation.



Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, said his party would give the by-election "the biggest possible go we can" and warned the Prime Minister's future was now out of Labour's hands and would be decided, at least in part, by the verdict of the people of Glasgow East.

The SNP would need a 22 per cent swing from Labour to take the seat. They have achieved big swings in two previous Glasgow by-elections – in Govan in 1973 and 1988 – and believe they can do so again.

The SNP stepped up the pressure as Labour managers in Scotland tried to find some way of managing the fallout from Ms Alexander's sudden resignation on Saturday.

Senior officials were keen to play down the prospect of a "bloodbath", insisting that the main contenders for the leadership got on well and, although there were policy differences between them, they were united in their desire to return the party to power in Scotland.

Jack McConnell, the former Labour first minister, yesterday said it was vital there was a leadership contest, with no interference from Mr Brown or the London Labour leadership.

He said: "One key factor here is that the party members in Scotland make a choice without any influence, either from me, for example, who has been in the position (of Scottish leader] in the past, or from senior figures in the party leadership from elsewhere."

Henry McLeish, another former Labour first minister, said he hoped the leadership election would take place as soon as possible, in order to allow the winning candidate to be in place in time for the new parliamentary session at the start of September.

Cathy Jamieson, Scottish Labour's deputy leader, who will take over from Ms Alexander until the leadership election later this summer, yesterday said she was "actively considering" entering the contest.

Ms Jamieson is likely to be joined in the race by Iain Gray, the former enterprise minister, Andy Kerr, the former health minister, and possibly Margaret Curran, the former communities minister. Bill Butler, a back-bencher, may stand for the Left, if he can win the support of enough MSPs. There may also be a deputy leadership contest, with MSPs Rhona Brankin, Tom McCabe and Pauline McNeill possible contenders

Although sources close to Mr Gray made it clear he would stand, none of the potential candidates are expected to declare their intentions publicly until party managers decide on a timetable for the contest later this week.

That timetable is likely to come too late for the Glasgow East by-election.



Mr Salmond said yesterday that the Nationalists believed the situation was now so bad for Labour that they could take the seat from them.

He said: "If there is a by-election declared next week, then we will give it the biggest possible go we can.

"In the current atmosphere in Scottish politics, things become possible which hitherto would have been thought to be impossible."

Mr Salmond said the SNP would fight the by-election on a range of national issues, such as the pressure on family budgets and the cost of fuel.

And he suggested the by-election could signal the end for the Prime Minister, if it went against Labour.

He said: "The question (of Mr Brown's future] is ultimately in the hands of the people, not in the hands of the Labour Party. The imminent electoral test in Scotland will surely provide another indication of where the wind's blowing."

Privately, Labour sources predict the by-election will be similar to the contest in the Hamilton South seat in 1999, where the SNP reduced a 16,000 Labour majority to just 500.

Meanwhile, the Prime Minister suffered a further blow yesterday when a former party donor warned Labour was doomed to failure under his leadership.

Business guru Sir Gerry Robinson said Mr Brown appeared incapable of leading and had left the party in "probably an impossible position to come back from".

And there was further bad news when other backers stated publicly that they would not continue to fund the party, a development which could become critical for Labour in the next few weeks as it has to pay back £7.4 million of loans on 1 July.

There has been speculation at Westminster that Mr Marshall stood down partly over concerns about employing members of his family.

Mr Marshall has employed his wife and daughter, Christina – who was caught up in both the so-called "lobbygate" and "Wishawgate" controversies involving Jack McConnell between 1999 and 2004, when she worked as his constituency secretary.

However, Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, yesterday insisted that Mr Marshall stood down due to health reasons.

He said: "People will speculate about all these things but the fact is this man's health is such that he cannot continue to do his job. I do not believe there is any evidence to suggest that there is any other reason."

Alan Johnson, the UK Health Secretary, rallied supporters behind Mr Brown yesterday, insisting that "in terms of what he is achieving, in very difficult circumstances, it has been a good year" for the Prime Minister and that voters would back him.



Last night, a Downing Street spokesman refused to comment on whether Mr Brown would resign if Labour lost the Glasgow East by-election.

Process of finding new leader may take months

Who will oversee the leadership election?

The Procedures Committee of the Scottish Executive Committee. It is comprised of the Scottish General Secretary Colin Smyth (who is the Procedures Secretary), plus the chair, vice-chair and treasurer of the SEC.

When does the election start?

On the day that the Procedures Committee meet to agree the timetable. The Procedures Committee will meet later this week, probably on Friday.

Who can stand?

Any Labour MSP can nominate themselves or be nominated by other MSPs. Nominees are required to have the support of 12.5 per cent of Labour MSPs. There are 46 MSPs so the threshold required is six.

Will there be hustings?

Yes. All candidates will be expected to attend a series of hustings around Scotland.

What if there is just one nominee?

If there is just one nominee a joint meeting of the SEC and the Labour MSP group will be held to confirm that nominee as the new leader.

If there is more than one candidate, how will the ballot work?

All candidates who receive a sufficient number of nominations from Labour MSPs will go forward to a one-member, one-vote postal ballot. There are three sections entitled to vote in the ballot: elected representatives (MSPs, MPs and MEPs), Scottish Labour Party members and members of trade unions affiliated to the Labour Party in Scotland.

What happens then?

The votes from each section will be counted and treated as an electoral college. Each section will be weighted equally to count for one third of the total vote.

When will the new leader be in post?

The exact timetable will be agreed by the Procedures Committee shortly, but the several stages are likely to take a number of months. Henry McLeish said yesterday he wanted the new leader to be in place by the start of the new parliamentary session in September, but that is unlikely if there is a proper contest.

Rebellion on twin tax plans likely

A DOUBLE rebellion over the 10p tax and retrospective changes to vehicle excise duty will cause fresh headaches for the government this week.

MPs are demanding Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, does more to compensate the 1.1 million lowest income households that will miss out after the government tried to mitigate the impact of scrapping the 10p tax band.

David Taylor, Labour MP for Leicestershire North West, is behind a move that would give an average of £60 to the losers, with a cap of £120. This would cost £66 million overall.

In amendments to the Finance Bill, MPs have also called for the Chancellor to think again about making higher road taxes for the most polluting cars retrospective.

They argue that applying the tax for cars bought between 2001 and 2006 will disproportionately affect poorer households.

The Conservatives tabled the amendment but 40 Labour MPs have also signed a motion opposing the plan and could join ranks with the Tories to scupper the tax.

Critics say the hike will cost one million motorists an increase of £200 each.

Gordon Brown is believed to have ordered Mr Darling to drop the tax in his Pre-Budget Report this autumn.







The full article contains 1736 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 00:05:32
Oh please let Labour lose this, and hopefully this will be the last we'll see of these wasteful, incompetent, lying, sleazy half wits for a generation.
2

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 00:16:59
Evening Spook.
Just "how" do you like Gordon?
His manly eye?




;-)
3

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 00:23:00
6
Ah, his big bottom.

Dropping jaw?
4

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 00:29:01
7
Where is your friend, Sophie Cleese?

5

subrosa,

30/06/2008 00:29:23
#5 and #6

Tut tut boys! Mocking the PM's afflictions isn't going to win the by-election. Anyway I detect a bit of jealousy there spook :)

It will be a hard fight this one. Labour will employ every dirty trick in the book. Some say a good turnout will be bad for the SNP others the opposite. Also there's word Tommy Sheridan is to make a comeback.

Oh the intrigue!
6

Richardinho,

30/06/2008 00:33:11
Despite all the hype to the contrary, the 10p tax rate has not been reinstated. That means the majority of people's taxes in this constituency have still been doubled. Lets hope people wake up and give the labour party a real kicking over this.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 00:44:16

Funny, I was going to comment on his 'Looks', but thought,..'NO'!

But since you lot brought it up, YES, a worried, sunken, wrinkled face!

Was it all Worth it!

Long Time Dead!

Wher as I,just go on 'Loving' the,..'Fruits of Life',..

As in my 'DYW'! :D

(see happy laughing face, for me)
8

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 00:46:30
13
Lupus in fabula ;-)
9

Silence of the Yams,

30/06/2008 00:46:34
I doubt he will resign, altho I expect the SNP will win this Jim Sillars style.
10

What happens when the oil runs out?,

30/06/2008 00:53:22
The Labour Party values you call.

Please hold.

If you require Panis et Circenses, sorry but we're completely out at the moment.
11

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 00:58:37
17
Libertas inaestimabilis res est.

Are you out of that?
12

Richardinho,

30/06/2008 01:02:09
I don't think this is one that we (the SNP) really need to win. Yes, it would be fun, but it's probably not worth a huge amount of resources it would probably take.

But taking off my SNP hat for a second, I want to inflict a huge kicking on the Labour party for the abolition of the 10p rate-One of the most disgraceful acts ever perpetuated on the working people of this country by the so called 'labour' party.
13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:04:38

~20,

Conan, t? e?ste µ???? s?µe?a t? p???; e??a? ? µ???s? se ??????,?
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:06:27

OH Well, this web site dont understand Greek!

Forget the post Conan!
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:08:47

Quote of Wisdom,

"We know that where there is no contention, there is neither defeat nor victory. The supple willow does not contend against the storm, yet it survives."
16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:12:05
The Spook in Leith ~26,

This new'ish website is not a patch on the old trusted brilliant site, that was made deceased!

It 'Total' Rubbish! compared to the last one!
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:13:24

Better post in 'Spanish', since they won the cup!
18

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:15:13

Viva la Revolución!
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:15:40

:DD
20

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 01:16:54
22

Were you trying to post Homer Charles?

Do'h.
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:17:36

(#27)

Be a "Willow", be 'Charles Linskaill'! :))
22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:19:43

Conan ~33,

NO I was not trying to post "Homer", it was a question for you!
23

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 01:25:11
I would like to answer Charles.
But a lot of question marks, doth not a question make.
24

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 01:32:34
Charles, there are too many @rseholes pretending to be other posters on the nicht.

Goodnight.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 01:35:52
Conan ~41,

Agree.

My related post @22,=

Conan, la cuestión es, ¿está usted tratando de educar a otros esta mañana, con sus entradas?
26

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 30/06/2008 01:37:38
The SNP will take this seat and will trigger a vote of NO CONFIDENCE IN BROWN, a general Election for Westminster will ensue and the SNP will win the Majority of MP's in SCOTLAND allowing them to claim a mandate on INDEPENDENCE without even holding a referendum. Any Bet's anyone!!!!
27

ThomasP,

30/06/2008 02:03:58
44 Scotindy,Los Angeles

A Unionist Party (Can't rmember which) said if half of Scotlands MP's were Nats then Scotland would become Independent
28

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 30/06/2008 02:56:41
Love all the posts,gnats are great,even no knickers nicola and fat two pays eck,eck and his bike!smarmy eck and sour chops nic,great fun this, like being back at primary school being a gnat.
29

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 30/06/2008 04:34:56
Brown is bad enough, could be worse he could be Fat boab!(alias fat eck).
30

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 06:02:23
It is 6 am and I have just looked at all the posts and don't get half of them.....but it is the start of the summer hols.......so that's something.... poor wee wendy, only her pension to keep her warm? Did anyone read J. Warner in Scotland on Sunday yesterday? Good article and the usual sarcasm...But the Brown acolyte seems to have lost the plot. He was saying that there was too much personal attacks on Pa Broon........ Must go for my breakfast now cheerio for the noo!
31

Ubi,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 06:09:54
Go for it, Cathy.
32

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 06:29:08
Glasgow East will be an Everest for the Scottish National Party to conquer. But in Salmond and Sturgeon, the SNP has its Hillary and Tenzing. They're clamping on the crampons this very morning - to secure Scotland a place at the summit. There the Saltire will flutter in the breeze of victory , as will the hearts of a proud and grateful nation.
33

iang,

30/06/2008 07:16:56
#47

There used to be a rule that stated that if 75% of Scottish MPs elected supported an Independence referendum then Westminster was obliged to allow it. George Robertson famously admitted on the eve of the '97 election (I think), which cost him his job, under the Labour supported devolution agreement that that would no longer be the case. No matter who voted for whom in Scotland it would be Westminster that decided if Scotland gets a referendum.
34

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 30/06/2008 07:28:45
Brown is dead in the water, resurrection anyone? Do the wasteful Labour run councils do them yet?
35

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 30/06/2008 07:43:15
Says it all for me that Broon - the PM (at the moment :-) ) is being told to keep his nose out of the new Liebore "leadership" election in Scotland.

A dead loss of a party...how can ANYONE continue voting for them? It's beyond me.

Alexander's successor will be just as rank.
36

Mist001,

Marseille 30/06/2008 07:50:21
I think it's great for Scottish independence. My view is that people look for political stability which obviously Labour doesn't have at the moment.

Big 'Eck is keeping very calm and is being quite rational and projecting the quality of stability. He's not coming out gloating or bragging and I think these attributes will appeal to voters and they'll get the seat.

Michael.
37

,

30/06/2008 07:51:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

,

30/06/2008 08:01:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

CondoleezzaCousCous,

30/06/2008 08:01:38
21 "One of the most disgraceful acts ever perpetuated..." Is that Greek, too, Richy?

Stick to football, old bean, stick to the footie.
40

CondoleezzaCousCous,

30/06/2008 08:04:43
23 "..endorse the SNP as an affective government.."
More Greek?

Stick to the footie, Spooky.
41

Big Red,

Aberdeen 30/06/2008 08:18:23

On average men in Glasgow East die at 63 years of age....possibly the lowest age in the developed western world.
50% of constituents are at least 2nd generation unemployed.

As said on the politics show yesterday, it it truly the area that time forgot.

As a supposedly developed country in the 21st century, these statistics are equally shocking and appalling.

And yet the people there continue to vote for the party of underachievement and over-dependancy.

Why ???

Kick Labour out, this is your chance.

42

NickT,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 08:22:49
Cathy Jamieson is "actively considering" standing. Can you inactively consider standing? The slapdash phraseology from a "professional communicator", the stark mental slackness, tells you everything you need to know about the mediocre nonentities of Scottish Labour. The Scottish Labour powerplayers are in London and the Cathy Jamiesons are discovering that the brain drain is no springboard into government.
43

Edward,

30/06/2008 08:30:47
Jack McConnell is still to resign and by election for his Loyrood seat, when is that happening?
Or is he hoping that we will all forget about it?
He is due to go to Malawi to replace the High Commissioner who is leaving there in February 2009. Jack in reality should be there about 3 months beforehand to learn the ropes!
Also due to happen the expected resignation of Glenrothes MP John MacDougall is also leaving Parliament due to health reasons. He stated as much last year when the expected General Election in October was due, but then didnt happen. His health hasnt got any better apparently
44

eric,

lothian 30/06/2008 08:38:04
A little bit more funding for the Glasgow Subway expansion into east end should do the trick!
45

Anglofile,

30/06/2008 08:40:44
Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown,
with his pants hanging further down!!!!
46

Edward,

30/06/2008 08:40:50
Correction to #67
John MacDougall MP is recovering well and is expected back at Parliament after the summer and is seeking renomination, apparently.
http://tinyurl.com/5owu3u
according to the Courier article 'John MacDougall is continuing to recuperate well after having a lung removed in his fight against asbestosis.'
Wish him well for a speedy recovery
47

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 08:47:24
Labour are a joke but the Nats aren't far behind, they have no visio to offer Scotland just backward looking xenophobia... of course certain parts of Glasgow have plenty of that so maybe it will work out for them.
48

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 30/06/2008 08:49:07
Alan Johnson - "a good year" for Brown!? You just can't make that up.

It's time the whole rat-pack was off. Cathy Jamieson for PM - might as well given the other choices as Broon undoubtedly slithers off. On the other hand his ability to "listen and learn" doesn't extend to our assessment of his performance and he seems so narcissistic that he'll have to be dragged out of no. 10 shouting "it WAS my turn, it WAS...".

On the replacement for Wendy, maybe Broon anointing a successor would save the unseemly mess that's about to happen as the unwashed in "ex team Wendy" go about their internecine warfare. Not a pretty sight.
49

Toast,

30/06/2008 08:50:17
At what point will labour be declared financially bankrupt,they are £22 million in dept and must pay back over £7 million in loans tomorrow followed by another £6 million by Dec 31st also a large percentage of their large donors have distanced themselves from the party.
50

James.com,

30/06/2008 09:04:10
The SNP will win but Brown won't resign or stand for Election. After losing to the BNP in the last by-election he said "By-elections come and by-elections go. Of course we have to listen to what people say BUT......"
51

bluehead,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 09:07:51
of course they will lose,but it won't help this country it is to late now.
this country has been diseased to such a extent it will be impossible to repair.
this goverment finished of the job Hitler tried to do to this country,so all that the men,women and children who died in the last war,died for nothing.
52

Yeti,

30/06/2008 09:19:36
The Times on Wendy:

"With her diminutive stature, breathless energy and rapid-fire speech, she has been compared to a gerbil on amphetamines"
53

radge dug,

30/06/2008 09:27:57
#78 never thought id laugh at a Times comment.

More Wendy characters?
a hamster on acid?
54

Tim C,

Southern England 30/06/2008 09:28:47
Labour can not lose, like Mugababe; the government all have pensions and/or second homes paid for by the taxpayer. And turkeys do not vote for Christmas, so why would the poor of Glasgow want to risk any form of change in their future benefits?

55

donald,

glasgow 30/06/2008 09:32:31
Bring doon Broon. Bring it on!)
56

European Scot,

30/06/2008 09:38:18
69 Rulesbutnotrulers

"Independence is a toom tabard in as much as it offers no guarantees of the better Scotland that the SNP proffers. More small independent nations are doing worse than are doing better."

So perhaps would you care to illustrate this comment with a couple of "Independent small Nations doing worse" in Europe, which is where Scotland is, geographically speaking of course.
Politically, only Independence will actually get us into Europe as a Nation, and into the United Nations as well.
Unfortunately your Federal solution won't achieve either of these things.
57

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 30/06/2008 09:42:02
If Team Sheridan rocks up it would be a concern to both Labour and SNP as he has the oratory to take a lot of votes from them both.

According to Gorgeous George, when Wendy worked for him she was given a mobile phone and asked, "where do you put the money in."

The Labour gene pool is very stagnant.

ALBA GU BRATH.
58

Adam Birnie,

Peterborough 30/06/2008 09:53:57
Good luck to the SNP from everyone in England
59

,

30/06/2008 09:54:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 10:22:41
12
Whilst Previous versions of the Glasgow Govan seat should be a lesson to us all,(ie nothing is impossible)an SNP gain here would still be a sensational result above all others, and would destroy LABOUR's credibility completely,and its pretty shambolic as it is.Even if the SNP go within a 5k majority, Id say its curtains for the UK.
For the record I expect the SNP to go closer than that!
The curtains just need drawing!
We live in interesting times indeed.
I couldn't help thinking earlier when I read"Labour will pull every dirty trick in the book"does this mean they still have some which they have not used yet? This party should be ashamed of themselves.They are the political equivalent of a Charlatan as far as Scotland is concerned,and anyone who identifies with them now should hang their head in shame.
61

danbob,

England 30/06/2008 10:23:58
Come on Glasgow east vote SNP. Get rid of this slime ball. And then when you have, hold a referendum on independence then we can all get rid of the uncertainty and move on in different directions if need be.
62

brownlie,

30/06/2008 10:30:07
87 daniel

Have you any idea how many "homes for heroes" i.e. military houses have been sold to developers in the last ten years?
63

Alan B,

30/06/2008 10:30:43
#Nervous Bear

The way i see it devolution has actually been a forse to clean up and improve our politics.

We have the corruption at Westminster, both through party funding and the kick backs for that funding eg peerages etc. And as u say the nepotism and cronyism at labour council level.

Devolution is a force to publicly change this. We have seen with devolution the falling of 3 party leaders for small level wrongdoing. Something that would never effect Westminster leaders. Brown apparently did exactly the same thing that brought down McLeish.

The media in scotland know that publishing details of msp indiscretions will have an effect and does bring down leaders. Only be removing them for wrongdoing on a regular basis will parties learn than they need to clean up their act.

We can also see it regarding msp expenses. They are much more control than westminster mps but even so the rules are being tightened as they are seen as too lax by the public.

The other advantage of devolution is it allows scotland to vote for parties other than labour. More competition between parties for out votes will force them to improve. By dint of the poor quality of labour they really should be the 4th party of scotland. But the historical poltical position because of westmisnter politics mean they are still a dominant force in scottish politics.
64

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 10:36:54
84
Meths
Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxiliis, cur, quomodo, quando?
65

Chalmers,

30/06/2008 10:36:59
According to today's Financial Times, a "senior Labour MP" is quoted as saying he hopes the Glasgow voters will do what the Cabinet lacks the guts to do - throw Gordon out:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7ce021e8-4542-11dd-a3c6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

(note: requires registration to read)
66

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 10:39:45
89
Scotland consists of two schools of thinking.
1) WE want independence
2) We are personally better off as we are.(Status Quo or something close to it)
The so called federal solution is not a solution to anything since it has almost no support!
We cannot impose something which nobody wants and is therefore No 3 on the list when there are more people who oppose it than support it.
It has been considered and rejected as a non runner !END OF DEBATE.
Whether it could work is of academic interest only.

NOBODY WANTS A HALF WAY HOUSE just as Devolution has not satisfied the aspirations of a nation to be like any other and control her own destiny.
It is already being debated what Devolution MK II should look like. Its pretty obvious any tactics which delay the break up mean money for WESTMINSTER.Its equally clear that SCOTLAND benefits from independence and would be foolish to consider anything less.Sorry but reality is cruel place to live for some people.
67

Alan B,

30/06/2008 10:41:51
#danielrober

The problem with a federal solution to the union is neither the tory or labour party are putting it. The lib dems do seem to support a federal solution but have no chance of power at westminster. They also seemed to want a federal solution by regionalising england but england rightly or wrong do not want that, as we have seen by the NE referendum rejection.

Any federal structure will therefore have to be based on the 4 countries that make up the uk. Again part of the problem is labour have devolved different powers to wales, ni and scotland.

Also we also have federal structure now with devolution. It is just not a symetrical federal structure.

The question therefore for scotland is what powers for the scottish parliament. It is up to england to create a parliament for england and/or come up with a solution to the democratic deficit that devolution to scotland and others have left. Remember wales are reviewing the powers for the welsh assembly with a view to increasing the powers inline with the scottish parliament ie have law making powers.

As such the question we in scotland have to review is what powers do we want for the scottish parliament and what powers do we wish to share with the rest of the uk in westminster (if any).

For me the power the scottish parliament needs as a matter of urgency is fiscal autonomy. This would stop the resentment of england towards scotland labelling us subsidy junkies and allow scotland the fiscal freedom to try to rectify out slow economic growth.

The problem i think u need to address is what powers should the uk pull. I support independence largely as i see next to no areas where i think it is better to share powers with the rest of the uk. In some ways that is because the eu has superceded the uk in areas that matter eg currency.
68

Copper,

Falkirk 30/06/2008 10:45:18

Please help me out here

Would this be the McLiesh that stole £38,000

Or the Jack O'Donell that sold the Ferry Building contract to the Poles

Or the Cathy Jamieson who works for the Company that lets Prisoners run away

Being older I get mixed up

Perhaps they could explain why the Slabs and the Lib Dums on Falkirk Council are giving Bo'ness Harbour building ground to a Dutch Finance Company

When this story breaks as it surely will the Labour Party are definately finished as it contains all the basic elements of Labour Sleaze
69

Copper,

Falkirk 30/06/2008 10:45:18

Please help me out here

Would this be the McLiesh that stole £38,000

Or the Jack O'Donell that sold the Ferry Building contract to the Poles

Or the Cathy Jamieson who works for the Company that lets Prisoners run away

Being older I get mixed up

Perhaps they could explain why the Slabs and the Lib Dums on Falkirk Council are giving Bo'ness Harbour building ground to a Dutch Finance Company

When this story breaks as it surely will the Labour Party are definately finished as it contains all the basic elements of Labour Sleaze
70

elizabeth the first ,

30/06/2008 10:46:31
96. Got your rose tinted glasses on again Morris,independence,the answer to all Scotlands woes,what utter rubbish.
71

Alan B,

30/06/2008 10:47:54
#96 morris

I disagree with u regarding federalism being a half way house. A federal structure with parliaments for all 4 nations that make up the uk seems to be the only logical solution if we are to mantain the union. The ultra centralist approach has failed.

The issue more is what advantage would scotland gain from a federal structure and what powers would it be best to share with the other component countries of the uk.

Problem for the union is i cannot see any beyond possibly a defence union. And given scotland seems to have a different attitude to nuclear weapons and wars in general that would have to be a loose union.
72

Alan B,

30/06/2008 10:50:24
#elizabeth the first

Independence might not be "the answer to all Scotlands woes" but it would be a major step in the right direction.
73

elizabeth the first ,

30/06/2008 11:53:52
102. You have a first minister who can't keep his manifesto promises,and a finance secretary that can't add up,i can see Scotland going places with these two clowns.
74

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

30/06/2008 11:55:53
Labour's weaknesses, primarily complacency after half a century of running the show (badly) for 50 years, have been exposed in just 12 months of ineffective opposition.

The SNP has done a good job in its first year, due in the major part to the skill of one man. Like all of the other Scottish party wings there is not a large quota of talent and experience sitting in the Miralles debating chamber.

WAlly tried to stem the tide of independence in a desperate bid to preserve the status quo, in the shape of the Union, by calling for an early referendum.

The voters in the east end of Glasgow really need to ask the question "what has Labour ever done for us?"

In truth, the Romans did more for Scotland than Labour ever has.
75

Sedov,

Scotland 30/06/2008 11:56:50
The Labour Party are paying for their arrogance in the way they have selected the national and Scottish leaders without a contest. This is down to the Labour MP's and MSP's who have denied any semblance of democracy withing the party. They have reaped what they have sown and lets hope they have learned the lessons of crowning two useless leaders in Brown ( who is still clinging on) and Alexander who was inept to a degree that was insult to the party rank and file ( those that are left) But what about the left in the LP in Scotland, the campaign for socialism, where are they? Will they be putting up a candidate or are just content to cry in their beer and
bleat about the "good old days" - Get your act together CFS and show that action speaks louder than words and you can't do any worse than the present line up of potential candidates who look like they are in the same mould as Brown.
76

artemisclyde,

30/06/2008 12:00:35
107: Can you name me any government in the history of post-war Britain who have fulfilled their manifesto promises within 1 month of coming to power?

No??? Thought not. Unfortunately for the SNP, it seems that there is a number of observers who think they should have radically altered Scotland within weeks of being elected.

Fortunately for the SNP however, the vast majority of people are a bit more realistic.
77

artemisclyde,

30/06/2008 12:01:30
113 - within 1 year, that should read. Before it invariably gets pounced on.

How's my grammar?? Just in case you can't answer that question and decide to belittle it by a jibe at my writing skills.
78

fearghus,

almost International tartan day - Wear the Kilt to 30/06/2008 12:03:28
Great News - haven't seen such a great blog in years. What interesting times we live in - Robbie Burns is ALive and Well and an SNP supporter of course.

Thanks to the gaels who never forget
Scots, wha hae wi'Wallace bled - Alba gu Brath '

Federalism = Chains and Slavery !
79

AJ Fife,

30/06/2008 12:16:00
It's a great day to be a Scottish Nationalist, but not so good if you're a Scottish Unionist. :)

Scotland's future has never looked so bright!

80

Old Cartha Boy,

30/06/2008 12:16:29
Appointed to lead a country, without anyone standing against him, and against the wishes of the population - isn't Mugabe just following Gordon Brown's example?
81

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 12:20:53
I have just had a comment " not allowed because we have detected a rude word" message.
I can assure you all it is a word I find offensive and would never use.

Meths , congratulate Spain on its success , well done indeed.
I think it may be Spains year at Wimbledon too!
Nadal is formidable!

Young Spook , excellent and well done!
Delighted for you!
82

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 30/06/2008 12:23:08
#117 Don't get too optimistic. The sad fact is that all politicians are tarred with the same brush and all excel at making promises. However, most of these promises will be forgotten no matter who is in the seat of power. We should all know by now that self- promotion is the watchword of them all, irrespective of which party they represent.
83

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 30/06/2008 12:26:14
#115 Who on earth is 'Robbie' Burns? Would he be a cousin of Rabbie's?
84

subrosa,

30/06/2008 12:31:02
# 116

Well done spook! Not many manage that these days in Scotland (passing the 3 and 4 times tables). :)
85

Alan B,

30/06/2008 12:36:38
#danielrober

"Its a debt we owe"

Not sure what debt we owe the US. I am not against supporting the US but should we should not support them out of some sort of debt. We should do it becuase we consider it the right thing to do.

As for independence. Independence is not be about our politicians, it is not about the snp per se (they are simply the vehicle), it is about how best to govern scotland.

Democracy is about the poeple of scotland choosing their political leaders and the policies they feel best fit the aims and values of the nation.

One big problem regarding the uk union, is the fact that scotland votes labour traditionally and england vote tory. This means that in most elections it does not matter what scotland votes.

If england vote tory we get the tories ruling the whole of the uk no matter what scotland (or wales) vote.

When there was a recession in the 80s in scotland with mass unemployment the loads a money thatcherite south returned the tories in increasing numbers. when the recession hit the south in the early 90s the tories were dumped from power.

Democracy is about being able to kick out ur political leaders when they are no longer performing or do not achieve what they said in the tin.

If u look at labour. Labour reformed not because it needed to in scotland to get elected. Nor Wales but to become electable in middle england.

That shows the fundamental democratic deficit of the UK. A federal decentralised model would help.

The way i look at it is to forget for a minute about independence or the union and simply ask what powers are best at what level. scottish parliament, westminster and eu.

For me the scottish parliament should have:
1)fiscal autonomy
2)more control over our separate legal system ie firearms, number of police in a police car (silly but true), id cards, number of days detension, drug laws etc.
3)energy: sp should decide nuclear vs rewables and that also mean electricity transmission regualations
86

brownlie,

30/06/2008 12:38:38
116 Spook

Well done, Spooky, any chance of coming to Easter Road before the big match on Sunday?

Lizzie the Fist

What unlady-like insults - we expect more from the denizens of Bearsden!!
87

Alan B,

30/06/2008 12:39:00
#danielrober

(got cut off)

For me the scottish parliament should have:
1)fiscal autonomy
2)more control over our separate legal system ie firearms, number of police in a police car (silly but true), id cards, number of days detension, drug laws etc.
3)energy: sp should decide nuclear vs rewables and that also mean electricity transmission regualations
4)sp should run its own elections, civil service (like NI), and its own parliamentary affairs (voting system and number of msps).
5)competition policiy
6)other regulations: super casinos etc.
7)transport: it is daft to have westminster running track for rail and sp controlling trains. Sp funds a structure it may not believe in. What if the tories privatise rail track co again. (i am not making an argument for one ideology or the other just the right for the sp to control the ideology implemented).

At an EU level i like the single market, the common currency, and would like some development of a common foreign policy (and peace keeping forces).

From a scotland perpective i would like scotland to join the euro as i strongly believe that is in our economic benefit. (sterling over a period of time is economically damaging to scotlands economy. It would be best if england were to join to but that is unlikely for political reasons).

I also think it would be better for scotland to be a member of the eu on her own right. That does not necessarily mean scotland cannot be in the uk. I would simply mean that scotland would be a member of the uk union in the same way countries are member of the eu.

the big question then would be what would the purpose of the uk be for scotland and what powers are best shared. The only thing left from what i see would be around defence and possibly foreign affairs. In many ways even if we want a shared defence union with england it does not need a fully fledged political union. All that is necessary is a defence union or scotland joining NATO.
88

fearghus,

Southern Isles 30/06/2008 12:47:35
301 years ago The Act of Union was imposed on Scotland if it had been voted for, it would have had less than a Wendy's of getting through more than 10% of the vote.

It was so unpopular that the English spy Daniel Defoe shakily reported less than 2% were for the union !

#130 - the celtic people only go back 4000 years, most of the English are far more recent.





89

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 12:49:58
On the subject of federalism. In a federal structure you have subordinate governments at regional level and a primary government over them all. The problem is that Scotland and England signed a treaty as sovereign nations to have an encorporating union. You would have to rescind the Treaty of Union if such a solution were to be credible. Unfortunately for the federalists this means that as a first step both countries would have to become independent before reaching a new union settlement.

At that point very few people will have the appetite for another union and so it won't happen.

We know that federalists mean well, it's not our fault that they haven't got a clue.
90

,

30/06/2008 12:51:44
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91

fearghus,

Southern Isles 30/06/2008 12:56:08
#137 Remember the Scottish had no appetite for the Union in the first place - see #135.

If you live in a democracy then why not have a real vote on the issue.you don't live in Africa.
92

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrd 30/06/2008 13:06:53
139 Methalions,
I was in Cibeles which was heaving - when I went home thousands were still turning up. After the stag then this... As an Irish barmaid once told me: "The liver is evil and must be punished"
93

Dominic, London,

30/06/2008 13:09:01
"Many in the Labour Party now believe victory for the Nationalists in Glasgow East – one of the safest Labour seats in the UK – could force Mr Brown out of 10 Downing Street."

The Scottish are too clever to allow a fellow Scotsman to be pushed out of office, thus making way for a 'different kind' of prime minister in the UK, which could prove disastrous for both our countries.

A short-term gain may be a long-term loss.
94

fearghus,

Alba gu brath - International Tartan Day 30/06/2008 13:10:15
Well put Spook,

Federalism = Chains & Slaverie sounds a lot like the Union doesn't it,

It seems appropriate here to remember the July the 1st commemorates the lifting of the proscription against wearing the tartan, owning bagpipes or having a Dirk. Just the sort of thing the Scottish people wanted (NOT). The punishment was 7 years of slavery in Virginia or the other British Colonies irrspective of age .....
95

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 13:12:37
What federalists need to answer is this: Would they welcome an independent federal Scotland?
96

fearghus,

International Tartan Day 30/06/2008 13:16:03
#145 The Scots are very clever Dominic - they have infiltrated both main British Parties , they really can't lose :-)
97

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 13:16:41
137 Alex etc-the federal option and the dissolution of the old Union could happen simultaneously as part of an overall constitutional revamp. It would require some imaginative and radical rethinking by the political establishment but it is entirely possible.
98

Busymale,

30/06/2008 13:24:01
After losing Bendy wendy ("the slayer of the Nats"), we now face losing our biggest asset for the cause of Independence - Hen Broon!.

For goodness sake David Marshall, what were you thinking? We Nationalists need losers like these 2 in power to take our goals to fruition.

Anyway, Wendy, you are the weakest link - goodbye!
99

fearghus,

Southern Isles 30/06/2008 13:24:40
#152 Thanks for that - of course the highland clearances were also a very effective way to erode the culture also, that's why the Scottish diaspora is so large, nearly 30 million I beleive.
100

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 13:27:00
149 Alex-independent federal scotland-contradiction in terms Alex. A fedration requires its participants to pool some of its sovereignty ie give up some of its independence. The Usa to my mind is the best example of a federation that works well.
101

fearghus,

Wear your Kilt - July !st 30/06/2008 13:27:18
Sorry about the typos = whiskey and lassitude have taken their toll > Good night...
102

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 13:28:04
scuse spelling and grammar!
103

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 13:29:12
100
Nobody ever claimed that Independence is a solution to every problem.I would never make that claim just as you could not make that claim for the retention of the United Kingdom!
I also wouldn't be daft enough to say what you did!

The UK does Scotland no favours and the harsh reality is that we would fare better as an independent nation.Your comment is unneccessary because its you who see the retention of the UK as some kind of Utopia,but cant offer any explanation for doing so.

If we considered the Status Quo as a solution we would still be living in caves!
An independent Scotland only needs to be better than the Status Quo to be desirable,and you should realise that! Of course there are dangers.I am only too well aware of this!That does not mean I am afraid of change and hopefully progress!I cant say the same for you.
The economics of an independent Scotland are sound, and even the three Unionist parties acknowledge this when asked,(but still claim the opposite when allowed to) which just shows what a bunch of liars they are.
Perhaps you could come up with an argument which supports the United Kingdom?I'm happy to listen to one!
Any one can say what you did, but it achieves absolutely zero!
The question is simple enough.
Economically we can go it alone.
Is that sufficient reason to do so?
If we were in a truly fair United Kingdom the answer would be NO.There would be no need to do so.
We live in a multi national state which benefits the South East at everyone else's expense and the governments own figures confirm this every year, or do you only believe stats which agree with you?

Even John Biffen acknowledged in a private televised interview that Scotland was better off as an independent nation,but he was elected to get the best deal for his English seat and that meant oppose Scottish independence. He admitted that had he been a Scot he would never have taken such a view and probably could not have joined the Tory party. If one of Englan
104

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 13:32:40
159 continued
If one of England's top Tory and Unionist politicians could see my argument then I'm fairly happy that I am at least in with a shout.many nations smaller and with less reources than Scotland have survived and prosperedand I see no reason why the Scots can have a najor inout into many succesful nations,but cannot run their own.
105

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 13:34:24
152 Spook-to protect the sensibilities of the ladies on the mainland when the "wind blew high and the wind blew low..!" Could have induced a few fainting fits especially if they were full blooded redheaded Highlanders in kilts!
106

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 13:37:05
161 Spook-Hi Spook-enjoy your lunch-I'm back to rolling turf!
107

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 13:39:52
162 Spook we dont hear much from our friend Morris nowadays but when he does decide to post.....!!
108

,

30/06/2008 13:43:30
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109

,

30/06/2008 13:47:03
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110

morris,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 13:48:22
145

The problem with that insight into reality is Brown is finished anyway ,and he will take half of Labours MPs with him ,at a General Election.Some opinion polls( if repeated), would return so many losses for Labour they could fail to be the opposition! I doubt that it will be that big a drubbing ,but a drubbing it will be nevertheless.Cameron must think its Xmas and pray to God Gordon stays (just as the SNP mourn the departure of Wendy Alexander)!

There would be nothing clever about backing a three legged horse would there?Thats what Labour are now.
Might as well ditch Brown now,since England has already declared that she will NOT re-elect him.
The stupid thing to do is vote Labour when they cannot possibly retain power,and anybody who thinks Brown can recover from this ,is either the supreme optimist,or knows something the rest of us do not!
111

Geoff,

30/06/2008 13:50:59
166 Ta Bird-enjoy your bacon!
112

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 13:56:24
Geoff,
"Alex-independent federal scotland-contradiction in terms Alex." - How Geoff? Is America not an independent federal state? You really need to catch up fella.

Ok, I'll explain just once so listen.

If you abolish the state, Scotland and England will be legally devorced. If you want to have a referendum that abolishes the state and creates a new one at the same time there would be one in England and one in Scotland. What happens if both vote no? What happens if one votes yes and the other no? The referendum legislation would require detail about the changes to the legal and administrative systems and the new relationships. It would require agreement from Labour and Tories on the powers that each parliament would have. Neither of these parties are federalist. And the English would be annoyed that they were being forced into a referendum abolishing the state just because the Scots were threatening independence. AND, how would the English feel if their 'country' was reduced to the status of 'region'? At the end of the day no-one is going to be bothered with all this - it's all too late.

Plus, at the point where the state is abolished all international treaties and agreements which bind the UK would be lost. The legal entity that is the UK would be gone forever even if another emerges with the same name.

I could go on and on. The point is that just because the word 'federalism' has a nice ring to it doesn't mean that has any relevance to the UK at all.

What is interesting though is that unionists are desperately seeking a plan B. They are sensing that the game is a bogey.

Painful I know but people do need to move on. It's union or independence - sorry about that.
113

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 13:57:21
Wendy Alexander has made an honourable move in the interests of parliament, as have Henry McLeish and David McLetchie in the past. It shows that they accept the need for exemplary standards from elected politicians, who have to hold public sector budget holders accountable for public funds.

It is good that Scotland has such high calibre politicians that demonstrably put the public interest above their own.
114

ReadingPublic-2,

Wisconsin 30/06/2008 14:09:50
I think Brown is doing his job.
115

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 14:14:50
171
So lets get this straight here Stephen.You are saying that politicians who are caught with their fingers in the sweetie jar are prefferable to those who did not yield to temptation?
I would have thought a far more honourable move would have been to behave, and do what you were elected to do,and look after your electorate,not milk the public purse because you think you can get away with it!
116

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 14:21:29
173 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation
"Tosh. The UK state need not be abolished if replaced by a federal state. Your argument is specious."

In a federal union the states remain legal entities but under a federal authority. In encorporating union the states are dissolved.

In order for Scotland and England to become legal entities the Union would have to be dissolved thereby abolishing the UK.

I hate it when reality isn't what I want it to be too so I understand your reaction.
117

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 14:22:57
170 Alex-Thanks for your reply. My argument is as follows so pay attention now young laird. Even the most ardent Unionists know that the Union as presently constituted is broken. The main reason it broke is because NuLabour never really put enough thought into their Devolution plan-it was and remains "half-baked".Notwithstanding some remarks from Nat quarteres that Westminster is the "English" Parliament, it is not-it is the British Parliament. That leaves england without its own house and with Westminster now trying to hobble along as an ad hoc English assembly as well as a Union Parliament it leaves a system guaranteed to fail and to cause much acrimony to the advantage of the Nationalists cause on BOTH sides of the border. Whether or not Scotland becomes independent, England will have its ownAssembly\Parliament-that is guaranteed. This is not the Unionists "desperately seeking a PlanB" It is about Unionists facing the reality of constitutional change in the UK. I have said it before and will say it again(ONCE more for you)-a constitutional conference for the islands of Britain and ireland(yes including Eire) is desperately needed with participation from as many political and other interested parties as possible to look at a new politicalsetup in the islands. Nothing should be left off the table including Independence for any of the constituents if they so desire plus referendums etc.. Federalism is a legitimate and viable alternative as is Unionism! The way some of you go on about the latter..stamp ma little feet but seriously try accepting that not everybody has the same vision/ideas as you or others. Such a convention is the way to an equitable and broadly accetable solution. No one wants this debate to fester endlessly as in for eg Quebec. I would be sadder than i can find words to xpress should the UK split but if it happens it should happen in friendship-not in acrimony.
Here endeth the lesson
Amen
ps-some of u including Morris have said half tongue in c
118

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 14:26:55
..heek that the SNP have lost a great ally in Wendy Alexander. Many a true wordsaid in jest-things can only get better for Scottish Labour with whoever replaces her!
119

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 14:31:07
176 Alex-there would be no problem finding a road through the legal and constitutional minefield if all parties are willing to travel it-nowt is impossible.
120

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 14:35:14
Geoff,
It's not impossible to have an English parliament. However that would be 'devolution' within an incorporating union.

That is not a federal state. The problem for federalists is that most of them don't even know what federalism means.

I don't mind people having other opinions Geoff. Some of my best friends are unionists;) What I do insist on though is for people to understand what they're talking about.
121

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 14:46:44
181 danielrober-thanks for your interesting stats-I am not contradicting your figure for SA but sounds very hard to believe. Briefly Scottish immigration to nsa would have started when the Brits took over +- 1800. Scottish names are prominent in the history of 19th century SA and many Scots came out during the 1899-1901 War and stayed behind and many married Afrikaaners. A best friend of mine had the name of Kenneth George Dundee but could hardly speak English. Taking the anecdotal evidence-there are almost one million South African residents who hold or are entitled to British passports. Assuming tht at least 10 percent(but probably higher given the Scots-Irish propensity to emigrate) I would estimate at least 100 000 Scots in SA and at least double that number of Scottish descent. Many would have come via the Empire in the 50's and 60's-Kenya,the Rhodesias etc. Hope that helps!
Ta Moderator for indulging me on relevance!
122

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 14:46:46
Geoff,sa 30/06/2008 14:31:07
"Alex-there would be no problem finding a road through the legal and constitutional minefield if all parties are willing to travel it-nowt is impossible."

It still hasn't sunk in. Geoff, it's not going to happen. David and Gordon are not just about to have a meeting about abolishing the UK and setting up a federal union instead. Their parties would be against it and even if not, the people might vote NO so it's a non-starter. There is just not going to be any desire for this to happen.

All federalists should watch the Monty Python 'Dead Parrot' sketch. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Lq771TVm4
123

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 14:51:35
181 danielrober-a quick look at the Durban telephone directory revealed about 50 each MacDonalds and camerons and about one hundred Campbells! the more I think of it that 200 figure sounds very wrong.Personal acquaintances born in Scotland probably number 50 to a hundred
124

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 14:55:14
173
I don't think Alex is questioning whether it could have been possible to go down the federalist route.It was presumably perfectly possible to have done so,the point is we chose not to, when we backed devolution.

The original demand was for the repeal of the Act of Union,or devolution,with far less support for variations or any dilution of that and any such proposals seek only to avoid independence as much as possible of course.

He simply states that we have not done so,
and rightly gives some of the reasons why that was rejected.
The Unionist parties could still panic and suddenly adopt this policy under orders from LONDON,in theory,but Labour and Tory will have a hard job doing so now, when they attacked the Lib Dems for years over their support.A more hollow U turn I find hard to imagine.
The facts are that there is no support for a federal "solution" and its merits are now therefore academic only.The numbers required to support it would have to be increased at a rate which I think is impractical, unless all three Unionist parties come clean and say we don't want a federalist solution, but we cant stop the SNP any other way.
When the Liberals first sounded this out those who truly favoured this presumably backed the Lib Dems. The majority rejected this in favour of the devolved assembly which according to the Lib Dems was the "design" of the Constitutional Convention of which they were a party to?That tells me even they accepted that a federal solution was a dead duck and thats presumably why they then helped formulate the Scotland Act(I presume they had input as well as Dewar and his friends anyway)

I admire your persistence in trying to resurrect this,as is your right of course,but I seriously doubt that it could ever be adopted in time to avoid the break up of the UK now.Its pretty obvious that those who do support it do so because they cannot have the Status Quo, and fear the increasingly popular alternative!
Make a case by all means,b
125

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 14:58:44
185 cont
Make a case by all means,but I think you should not be too optimistic of what will transpire and we are all bound by the majority held view which can change of course,but I doubt it will ever move from its current polarisation of UNION v INDEPENDENCE.Maybe I am wrong of course.It will not be the first time,but I really doubt its a serious contender.
126

subrosa,

30/06/2008 15:16:40
With regard to Westminster none of the parties there is in the least interested in federalism (with the exception of the token libdem contribution). Why should they be interested? We already know that the UK government doesn't make the majority of our laws these days - that's done by the EU.

We're over stuffed with MPs at Westminister and no party wants to be responsible for reducing the numbers. That's another reason why England will not devolve.
127

Dominic, London,

30/06/2008 15:19:17
168, morris

The problem is not Gordon Brown, but the New Labour party as a whole. The voters' dissatisfaction is not new, but accumulated over the last 11 years of New Labour regime.
A change of leader would not improve matters, but could make them even worse - both for England and for Scotland.
Do you really think that somebody like Miliband, Straw or Alan Johnson are more capable and more liked by the public? Nobody I know likes or trusts them.

And, anyway, there is something fishy about all these attacks on Gordon Brown.
128

subrosa,

30/06/2008 15:29:05
# 180 It's not impossible to have an English parliament. However that would be 'devolution' within an incorporating union.

It is impossible with no party being prepared to lose any of their MPs. Far too many MPs in Westminster now that the EU make the majority of our laws. We all know they need reducing but we all know no party has the courage to do it.

Mind you, if David Cameron takes over England with a hugh majority, he could well change his tune :) Pigs might fly too.

129

Geoff,

sa 30/06/2008 15:30:48
186 Danielrober-u have piqued my interest with your enquiry-will revert further.Many of the Scots and other Brits who colonised East and central Africa went there at the behest of the (perfidious in many eyes) british government and moved south when these became independent countries. Many arrived literally with suitcases and established succesfulbusinesses and careers in sa. The Building Industry in SA for eg is full of Scots who have contributed out of all proportion to their numbers with their skills and industry. Am absolutely certain the more i think of it that they have left a couple of noughts off your 200 figure.
Rgrds
130

Lauwrie,

England 30/06/2008 15:35:55
"Mr Salmond said yesterday that the Nationalists believed the situation was now so bad for Labour that they could take the seat from them."

Interesting . In England, dogmuck is more popular than Labour. Harman has probably clinched it for them.
I knew that in Scotland Labour was on the defensive but was not aware it was to this extent.



131

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 15:46:56
189
Im a member of the SNP so I agree 100% THAT LABOUR ARE THE PROBLEM.No argument there DOMINIC.

They simply cannot be re elected,since England rejects them, and Scotland will NOT accept another Tory government being imposed upon us,without a major shake up of everything which holds the Union together,
,nor will Labour party sctivists here, many of whom have already joined the SNP.You see the United Kingdom as something which cannot be undone I suspect.
It not only can be undone,but is closer now than it dares to ever go, and survive. I agree the position in England may well be as you describe,but I dont live in England and I intend being your neighbour only.The position in Scotland is totally different.We are a nation whose claim will be recognised under United Nations agreements which the UK is a signatory to. We have an escape clause.If you elect a government which you dont like,then that is a problem of your making and the solution is yours and
yours only,AND THEY HAVE BEEN DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED BY YOUR OWN COUNTRYMEN !
I could not interfere in the democtratically elected government of a neighbouring country.
I do not intend to be used as a passport for Labour being elected to govern England against the wishes of the English people either,although our 59 seats can hardly make a difference unless Labour and Tory are neck and neck and thats unlikley when Labour's last result was a lost deposit!You decide who governs England Dominic.Ill decide who governs Scotland.Thats democratic.
132

Traquir , Alba,

30/06/2008 16:04:09

I recommend that nationalists concentrate their energies on the Glasgow East by-election. As entertaining as the latest Scottish Labour
side show might me I am going to largely ignore it.
I really do not believe it
will make one iota of difference which of these
sycophants emerges as leader.

I would suggest as a first step people better understand the local area within Glasgow East
to fully appreciate the problems and needs
of the electors and how
best improvements can be made for them. A good initial
start would be to contact local SNP councillors to better understand what help they need and what the true
situation is on the ground since no doubt we will
not learn it directly from the Scottish newspapers.

Some SNP councillors within or close to the Glasgow
East constituency are :

. Jennifer Dunn (SNP, East Centre):
threetargets.blogspot.com
. David McDonald (SNP, Bailleston): notworkingfortheclampdown.blogspot.com
. Alison Thewliss (SNP, Calton):
bellgrovebelle.blogspot.com
. Grant Thoms (SNP, North East):
tartanhero.blogspot.com

It is interesting to note that these
young, passionate and energetic councillors
are very different from the typical Glasgow
City Councillors who are
described in the book "Halls Of Infamy" which
Glasgow City Hall is trying to ban :

"The majority of Glasgow's councillors are overweight, many are obese. They do little exercise and go everywhere in council limos"

see -tinyurl.com/4dt239 & tinyurl.com/4ovflt

After five decades ruling Scotland, Labour have become
deeply corrupt, sycophantic Westminster puppets and
faux Socialists who have no principals left. They have
voted for wars, WMD (Trident) and even praised
Thatcher. In between they have created appalling
conditions in areas such as Glasgow East and if
they had any morals they would be hanging their
heads in shame and apologising to the Scottish
people for the abject poverty and loss of hope in areas
which are more
133

Traquir , Alba,

30/06/2008 16:04:38
cont.

After five decades ruling Scotland, Labour have become
deeply corrupt, sycophantic Westminster puppets and
faux Socialists who have no principals left. They have
voted for wars, WMD (Trident) and even praised
Thatcher. In between they have created appalling
conditions in areas such as Glasgow East and if
they had any morals they would be hanging their
heads in shame and apologising to the Scottish
people for the abject poverty and loss of hope in areas
which are more like Eastern Europe rather than an oil
rich Western democracy.

The response from Des Browne just shows what
low lifes these people are :

"these people have been represented at a Council, Westminster and latterly Scottish Parliamentary level for generations by the Labour Party. I think you will find that they know what side their bread is buttered on."

Scotland needs to be rid of this Labour parasite
and Glasgow East will be instrumental in getting
rid of them and perhaps as a bonus Maggie Broon also.

Saor Alba
134

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 16:11:36
192
To be absolutely fair Scotland has regional differences as does anywhere. This seat falls in what would normally be considered an impregnable LABOUR fortress.For the SNP to win in Glasgow or Lanarkshire is not so much a victory as a rout!Nevertheless nearby Govan and Hamilton have shown that you take Strathclyde for granted at your peril.The difference this time is we know that Labour cannot win a General Election,and the game Brown plays now is damage limitation at best,with his own seat under threat!The more intelligent Glaswegians and Clyde Valley residents will realise that Labour are finished as far as Westminster is concerned and the only variable is the size of the Tory majority which one opinion poll suggested could be 200 plus!
Scotland cannot seriously back Labour in numbers with a guaranteed Tory government as a prize !

The choice will be realised by most of them VOTE SNP or your getting a Tory government and Labour retaining seats in their impregnable fortress does nothing to change their popularity in England.If anything it amplifies English perception that Labour are a Scottish party (when nothing could be further from the truth).
Even the spell check (which I have decided to use occasionally you will be glad to hear)queries Lanarkshire and suggests Lancashire in its place! That just about says it all!
135

Matt there,

somewhere 30/06/2008 16:19:00
Why on earth would Wendy resign so soon before a by-election widely seen as of vital importance to Gordon Brown?

Maybe she wanted to put some clear water between herself and her brother and Walking Disaster Brown?
136

morris,

edinburgh 30/06/2008 16:21:03
194
That makes infinite sense if I might say so.If I were you I would copy that and forward it to SNP Hq who I suspect will nod their heads furiously in agreement! WELL SAID SIR!
137

Truely English,

30/06/2008 16:29:28
181

The Scots have always been great Empire builders both as part of the British Empire, the Russian Empire and many, many, others.
There is no doubt that there most lasting contribution will be seen as part of the British empire in helping to educate the natives in the English Language, Culture and Heritage and making English the International language it is today.

Yes, the Scots did leave as did the Irish, Welsh and English to better themselves and this they have done most handsomely.
They go to English speaking countries as this is the language they know.

David Cameron who is also of Scottish descent will most likely be our next Prime Minister and which all Scots should be proud about will not see much of a victory from his own people, which is naturally a pity.

The Empire will come and go but our enduring link of English language and culture will go on forever.


138

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30/06/2008 16:39:38
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No 42 days,

30/06/2008 16:39:56
Ha, ha, ha. Please let it happen. I love to watch NeoLabour politicians infight and squirm.

Payback for refusing to give us a referendum on the EU Constitution. Lying socialist scum!
140

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30/06/2008 16:42:22
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European Scot,

30/06/2008 16:56:05
202 Ayrshire Scot

' New Labour' please Ayrshire !
The 'Labour' party actually supported Home Rule ?
Wouldn't want to confuse them, with Teflon Tone's little Drones.
142

Dominic, London,

30/06/2008 16:59:22
193, morris

Of course the Union can be undone. The question is whether and when it would be wise to undo it.

Considering the current democratic deficit and ambitions of the EU, you may risk jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
I, for one, would rather be governed by Gordon Brown than by Brussels.
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30/06/2008 16:59:34
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30/06/2008 17:02:56
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European Scot,

30/06/2008 17:11:36
205 Ayrshire Scot

I was back in 1888, with your old friend Keir Hardie !
Going way back to the founding principles of the Labour Party.
Isn't Hardie still on the Electoral roll, according to a certain Unionist.
Well, in spirit one supposes.
You're quite right of course about Kinnock, Cook etc.
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30/06/2008 17:14:13
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European Scot,

30/06/2008 17:17:02
208

LOL
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Upandunder,

30/06/2008 17:20:43
A man of such arrogance will never stand down.

This is the arrogant PM who said he is "concerned" about rising fuel prices yet fails to understand that petrol is cheap in Britain (it's around 30p in the £1 on the forecourts). 70p in the £1 spent by you and me goes to... the Inland Revenue to waste on numerous state-funded follies! He's telling the oil companies to drop their prices yet it is Britain's communist government that is the biggest earner from the private motorist.
149

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30/06/2008 17:26:44
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David MacVicar,

web 30/06/2008 17:28:28
197 Matt there,
Why on earth would Wendy resign so soon before a by-election widely seen as of vital importance to Gordon Brown?

Quite simply because Wendy cares for her, herself, and she only, first.
Labour and her donors a distant second.
Nobody else third.
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30/06/2008 18:04:07
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wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 30/06/2008 18:05:01
Is Brown's New Labour Party similar to the 'legalised
crooks' who made obscene profit when ordinary people we were being ruthlessly bombed by Hitler's Nazis im many parts of the UK?
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30/06/2008 18:09:18
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30/06/2008 18:09:57
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30/06/2008 18:15:27
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 30/06/2008 18:18:59
#196 The SNP cannot fail to win something from this by-election as any swing will be reported(except in the scotsman) as a success for SNP. I really hope that Glasgow's East end finally notice that Labour has failed them over and over again for well over 5 decades.

They should start to consider alternatives. Why are all the labour heartlands the worst area's in the UK. They have not always been the worst area's ?

If you want no hope. VOTE LABOUR and get what you asked for. More of the same. Corrupt, Fraudulent town councilors with a flare for Nepotism and Hypocracy.
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30/06/2008 18:28:04
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30/06/2008 18:34:14
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30/06/2008 18:43:27
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30/06/2008 18:45:58
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weh,

30/06/2008 18:47:28
The Scottish Labour powerplayers are in London "

Really? Name one for me please Nick?

Only one.
162

Truely English,

30/06/2008 18:49:42
227

We all share the English language and culture.
Which language are we all writing and thinking in if it is not English; Swahili !!!!
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George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 18:52:20
Dear All

The only real contender for the Glasgow East seat against Labour is the SNP.

They will not win the seat, because in Lachie McNeill do not have the right candidate for voters to switch to.

What does a 56 year old advocate have in common with the people of Glasgow East?

Nothing, it is that stark.

Lachie McNeill cannot cross the barrier and alter the mindset of the local people.

It will take an enormous swing of 22% to win for the SNP but without a candidate that can connect with ordinary people, they have already lost.

I do however expect that the SNP will pick up more percentage of votes than last time.

That is my predication for this by-election.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
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30/06/2008 18:59:13
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John R. Constable,

England 30/06/2008 19:00:13
This Englishman thinks that Alex Salmond and the SNP have not put a foot wrong so far.

But that could be about to change.

If they do win this by-election and Brown is forced out, then that might mean a PM more appealing to the English is installed ... which would be very unhelpful for the SNP and the independence referendum.

Bottom line - Brown must not be unseated before the 2010 General Election - so that the SNP's chances of winning the referendum vote are improved, because Tory toff 'Dave' wil be PM at Westminster, and then both England and Scotland will fully regain their respective political identities.
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30/06/2008 19:00:17
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30/06/2008 19:02:20
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John R. Constable,

England 30/06/2008 19:05:46
More bluntly, in my opinion, it would be a tactical mistake for the SNP to win this by-election and possibly force 'Hen Broon' (as you call him) out.
169

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30/06/2008 19:07:53
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First Rule of Anarchy,

30/06/2008 19:08:42
Will Sheridan get all the orange vote?
171

brownlie,

30/06/2008 19:14:02
247

Not from the Greens, presumably!
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John R. Constable,

England 30/06/2008 19:14:04
Professional political parties use 'tactics' all the time.

I am simply pointing out that generally the English now loathe Brown/NL and are almost certain to vote him and Labour out at the next General Election.

Which means that Tory 'Dave' and chums will fill the boots by default.

That is exactly the result the SNP would be looking for as it would then position them perfectly for the independence referendum.

I am simply an Englishman who wants to get political England back again but the English are generally just too politically apathetic to do it .. .so the only hope is that the native Scots do it for us both.
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 30/06/2008 19:17:33
#238 - George

Are you forgeting the important question of "What School did he go to?"

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First Rule of Anarchy,

30/06/2008 19:17:40
248
That would be the limey vote.
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 19:36:37
George Laird you are right especially if Labour pick George Ryan.

The SNP bandwagon is about to draw to a shuddering halt.
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30/06/2008 19:36:48
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George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 19:40:25
Dear Ayrshire Scot.

If Lachie McNeil fights the seat of Glasgow East for the SNP, he will lose.

I do not know why you getting all upset by me making a statement of the bleeding obvious.

Surprised that you cannot see the writing on the wall.

Shall you beoming back with a cheeky reply as usual?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
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wherthefahkowee ,

Canada 30/06/2008 19:42:37

Is Glasgow University without human rights?
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 19:46:25
If Labour put up someone like Gordon Jackson then Lachie NcNeil could win. But from what I am hearing they are going for the local boy. Ryan would beat McNeil. Especially if Sheridan stood. The votes lost to him would be SNP ones. I don't particularly care I am just pointing out George Laird was making a good point and did not deserve a negative response.
180

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30/06/2008 19:50:21
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 19:56:01
260 Are you that naive ? Do you think in a constituency where the average life span of men ends in their sixties they sit around talking about the legality of Iraq or 42 day detention ? Research the constituency. George Laird knows what he is talking about.
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 19:58:25
260 Try finding out how many people pay full Council tax in Glasgow East.
183

brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:01:32
261 Lady M

You and, to a certain extent, George are making arrogant assumptions regarding the intellect of voters in that area. They have the same feelings and opinions as the rest of the country.
184

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30/06/2008 20:02:37
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30/06/2008 20:03:30
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:04:22
Brownlie, with respect, I have read this thread and laughed. I don't make any assumptions about the intellect of the voters in Glasgow East, but I think I know a bit more about the reality of the constituency than most of you do. It is not intellect that is the issue it is poverty.
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30/06/2008 20:06:10
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:08:26
Ayrshire Scot in a constituency where the average life span for men in less than in most middle eastern countries why do you think that Iraq should be a dominant issue ? Maybe you want to write it off as snobbery but in my opinion not wanting to face up to the reality that living conditions in some parts of Glasgow are the worst in Western Europe is a form of snobbery. But you expect the most deprived people in Scotland to be concerned about exactly the same issues as you. Do you intend to die when you are 63 ?
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brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:10:05
266 Lady M

I'm sorry, your ladyship, but you are making another arrogant assumption that you know more about the reality of the constituency than most of us.

What is this statement based on? Do you know, for a fact, how much the rest of us know about Glasgow East?
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30/06/2008 20:12:41
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:14:20
I said with respect Brownlie, so I don't think it's arrogance, I have local knowledge that doesn't seem very evident from some other posters. My name Lady Muck is ironic. I only posted to support George Laird's opinion which I think is factually correct.
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George Laird,

30/06/2008 20:14:29
Dear Ayrshire Scot

"I am just fascinated by your take on politics".

Nice that you take an interest in my posts.

"So if Lachie, or anyone else, stands on platform opposed to 42 days detention without trial, in favour of action to use Scotland's windfall oil wealth for our benefit, opposed to the unfair council tax you think he will automatically lose to a Labour candidate who favours abolishing the 10p tax rate, illegal wars, cutting millionaire's inheritance tax, closing 5000 post offices, sacking 12,000 disabled workers at Remploy and general sleaze/ law breaking".

Lachie will still get humped.

Labour can stand their ground and use the Commonwealth Games, jobs and regeneration to win the seat.

You also seem to dismiss the loyalty that ordinary people feel for "old" Labour too.

There is no way that Lachie McNeil, a 56 year old advocate can cross the barrier and connect with the ordinary working class people and take the seat.

Although Labour is deeply unpopular, the SNP have never addressed the Central Scotland question effectively and Alex Salmond knows it.

Finally if you need any more advice then please feel free to ask.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
193

subrosa,

30/06/2008 20:17:07
# 235

I'm courteous enough to write in English on these boards although I speak Scots vocally. That ensures that the unionists hear what I say and don't make the excuse that they have language problems - as they appear to do with German French, Itialian, Spanish etc.

Don't ask me about my experiences of the English in Europe - mind you the Scots only fared marginally better.

Shame on the lot of you that you think English is the world's language - Chinese is set to take over soon. Sadly that's life but that's where arrogance about thinking you dominate the world gets you.

ps I insisted my children learn Chinese. It's not an easy language and the will never become fluent in it but at least they'll understand the basics.
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George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 20:17:21
Dear Lady Muck

Thank you for your support.

It is surprising that some of the other posters cannot see the writing on the wall.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
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30/06/2008 20:17:26
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brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:18:46
271 Lady M

Damn! and I thought your name was factual! Did it not occur to you that boys from this area are involved in Iraq and Afghanistan and that concern for their welfare, and the conduct of operations in those sad places, would be foremost in many minds in Glasgow East.
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:19:11
Ayrshire Scot if you really are poor then why would you focus on Iraq ? It's a simple question. You have intergenerational worklesness and the sh1ttiest housing there is, drugs and crime all around you - organised crime not just the petty stuff, and you are going to be motivated by Iraq. Why ?
198

Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:21:43
Govan has a big ethnic vote, the east end doesn't. That's not a racist statement it is factual, without the areas like Shawlands and the large ethnic vote Govan would not have been won. There are no Shawlands in the east end.
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subrosa,

30/06/2008 20:22:48
# 266

In the context of your post you will be able to provide from your statistics the number of men/women who have joined the 'British' army then? Also of course you will know the number killed.

Of course (and this is an assumption) you never appeared at the protests about the decimation of our regiments on the world military stage. You support the Uk government and of course the EU who insist that the percentage of Scots in the military are part of the 'bigger picture'.

Be ashamed, very ashamed.
200

LEAL,

30/06/2008 20:22:56
Perhaps the SNP should take the safe option and not stand in Glasgow East.They dont want to risk losing Goadin so soon after losing The Disgraced Wendy Alexander.

Will George Ryan be waving a Union Jack and shouting "a vote for Labour is a vote for the Union!" ?Will he be expounding the virtues of British values like his London masters? Dont think so.The unionists can only be negative.Nationalists must be positive.
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30/06/2008 20:23:29
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30/06/2008 20:25:01
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:26:57
Ayrshire Scot I am not that bothered what the result is I am just pointing out that George Laird was right. If Labour field George Ryan, and they are possibly stupid enough not to then he would win against Mr McNeil.

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Truely English,

30/06/2008 20:27:04
273
As long as you speak read and write English it makes no difference to any of us what other langage or languages you speak.

Be proud to be British and speak English at every opportunity. The rest do not matter in this world as everyone else will eventually learn English anyway.
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30/06/2008 20:28:33
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30/06/2008 20:30:30
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:30:31
281 Ayrshire Scot you miss my point completely. My point is that poverty confines people's political thinking. And there is also the poverty of aspiration. Have you heard of that ?
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30/06/2008 20:32:02
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brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:32:27
284 Truely

True Story - I was at the Butterworth ferry in Penang, Malaysia, and a "gentleman" with an English accent was having a heated discussion with a local tri-shaw driver. He finished the discussion by shouting "Why have you not learned to speak English, you ignorant savage?". It made me very proud to be British.
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30/06/2008 20:32:57
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brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:34:28
287 Lady M

Lord George Foulkes and Lord James Douglas-Hamilton are not poverty stricken, are they?
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:36:06
288 You are a poor at discussion. You seem not to realise that poverty is limiting and that you cannot expect a one size fits all argument to be paramount to everyone. People have priorities and your priorities will be different to those people who do not share the advantages that you have got.
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30/06/2008 20:38:19
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30/06/2008 20:39:17
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:40:23
Brownlie what is your point caller ? Of course they are not poverty stricken. One is a Tory and one is a list MSP who is fond of the drink I prefer the Tory.
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30/06/2008 20:40:48
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:43:07
Ayrshire Scot I am willing to bet that you do not live in a damp ridden tenancy. And I am willing to bet you have a job and don't have to worry about paying the gas bill or repaying moneylenders etc etc etc. But you carry on expecting that your political priorities should be just as important to people who live much poorer lives than you.
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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 20:45:29
257 George Laird

I am somewhat intrigued by your assertation that Lachie McNeil cannot win this seat on behalf of the SNP.

As far as I can discern, your belief appears to be based upon Mr McNeil’s apparent age and occupation as a lawyer, and as such, you assert that this renders him incapable of being a credible winner.

I also note that you append the name of my alumini to your signature.

Is this a case of “in vino veritas”, or merely wishful thinking?

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brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:48:15
295 Lady M

so, by your reasoning if they are not poverty-stricken their political thinking is unconfined!!!

Do you know either of them or are you now really being ironic!
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 20:52:13
Very funny Brownlie. I am not acquainted with either person. If you wish to ignore that poverty is an issue in this by election then feel free to do so.
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brownlie,

30/06/2008 20:56:26
300 Lady M

Yes, I do think poverty is a very real issue in this bye-election but I, equally believe that associating poverty with a lack of acumen or political awareness is completely wrong.

We were not all brought up with the silver spoon etc.
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 21:04:50
Brownlie I don't associate poverty with political acumen or intellectual ability I associate it with experience. Experience shapes your responses to things and to your perception of what is important. You and Ayrshire Scot seem to think that doesn't matter.
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George Laird,

30/06/2008 21:06:12
Dear Ayrshire Scot

The question that you wish to avoid in favour of listing SNP wins is why has the SNP not cracked the Central Scotland question.

No one is disagreeing about the SNP gains but mostly they are all on the outer edge of the Central belt.

"You seem to think the electorate will judge on the basis of the profession of the candidate rather than the issues..... for shame for belittling people in such a fashion George".

I am merely pointing out that Lachie McNeil is not suitable or able to take the seat.

As much as you want to say I am belittling the people, I am not.

I am simply stating what the SNP will find out by polling on the doorstep.

He has no chance.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
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30/06/2008 21:07:48
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Lady Muck,

30/06/2008 21:09:07
1967 was a long time ago. It was pre Thatcher.
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karinxxx,

30/06/2008 21:09:36
hello peeps.

the herald still not working then?


George i have to say your wrong on this one the snp are going to win the seat. I have personally asked the universe and the universe has given me a sign that this is the case.

Why dont you ask it yourself?
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karinxxx,

30/06/2008 21:10:44
ayrshire are you in the piano bar?
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George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 21:14:03
Dear bully wee alba

Given that any opinion is based on subjective of view points.

I am applying what I think to which way the seat will go.

Labour has put a lot of emphasis over a considerable period of time in the East end of Glasgow.

They can point to the Commonwealth Games and the jobs and regeneration that will flow from that.

They have their USP.

They have the issue to win which no SNP campaign will dent.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
229

greenfeildian,

shettleston 30/06/2008 21:14:06
With the record amount of benefit claiments here in Shettleston their is not a lot candidates can promise them to make their life better in fact the SNP,s policy to make drink more expensive might bite them on the backside sooner than they thought Labour lost huge amounts of votes through the smoking ban even though it is lauded as a success
230

,

30/06/2008 21:14:31
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,

30/06/2008 21:14:53
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Nikostratos,

30/06/2008 21:15:03
#296 Ayrshire­ Scot™,

Ayrshire­ you are just a 'Sluut'


Must admit this will be an interesting by election..If Alex's is doing as well as he believes then the snp should win it. And if Gordon is doing as badly as many claim he will lose big time and ought to resign as primeminister.

Will that be the way it ends.....I couldn't say but we are all gonna find out.



#301

some of us didn't even have spoons I used to dream about having my very own spoon.......even said to me mum one day I'll have a spoon.mum said "don't be ridiculous" And many years later now i have a whole cutlery set....see dreams can come true

#308 karin

u into Cosmic Ordering then?


oops must go gotta change me pants.......
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George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 21:16:14
Dear Karin

Hi.

You are wrong.

Do you remember me telling Douglas Fraser to bale out at the Herald?

He baled!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
234

subrosa,

30/06/2008 21:17:22
# 307

I would appreciate an answer to my post number 207.

If you do not answer then I consider your opinions garbage.
235

subrosa,

30/06/2008 21:19:01
# 315

He said he'd bailed but he's still writing on the Sunday Herald and the Herald.

Do you think he's moonlighting?
236

,

30/06/2008 21:20:11
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George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 21:23:20
Dear Subrosa

I am sure that Douglas Fraser likes networking.

Cash must come in handy too!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
238

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 21:25:07
George,
It's not really a 22% swing that's needed. Based on the Holyrood result and opinion polls I'd say it's more likely to be a 10% swing. That is achievable.

Maybe Lachie would be the wrong candidate. I think Elaine C Smith could do some serious damage though. The SNP should opt for her! This is an opportunity to topple Brown and there is going to be a mutha of all contests. And the whole UK media are going to be following it. Imagine those London journos in Baillieston? Lol.

The thing about the commonwealth games is that it isn't identified directly with Labour. It's going to be difficult to persuade anyone that Labour have focussed on the area either. The central issue is going to be Labour's neglect and the poverty there in general.

Na, it's open. If Sheridan stands Labour could even come third.
239

subrosa,

30/06/2008 21:26:09
# 319

George, I'm sure they don't live in the east of Glasgow or perhaps the two of them would have a more sensible view of Scotland and be able to report from an unbiased prospective.
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Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 30/06/2008 21:31:06
I mean what the fu are Guardian or Telegraph journos gonnie make of Elaine C Smith?
241

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30/06/2008 21:37:25
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Traquir , Alba,

30/06/2008 21:42:34
I strongly suspect that Lachie McNeil will not be
the chosen candidate for Glasgow East. He was selected
previously, but that was for a seat which was lowest
on the SNP target list. Naturally enough the SNP
will position the best candidates for the most
winnable seats, and by inference Lachie is likely
not one of the best candidates. Now that
Glasgow East has come into play it is critical
that the SNP chooses a top profile candidate
who will be able withstand the ferocity of
this campaign. Even the London Times picked
up on a potential high profile candidate
being selected with Elaine C. Smith being
one option- see tinyurl.com/64sflz

The SNP will, using Gordon Browns own words,
do anything and everything to win this seat
and they will need all of our support in doing this.

George Laird makes a very good point that
poverty is a major factor in this by-election
battle, and certainly any candidate should
be able to fully engage and provide solutions,
confidence and hope to this abused demographic.
I don't agree that being a lawyer precludes
Lachie from being a viable candidate, but in
any case I think that will be a moot point
as I think it very unlikely Lachie will be selected.

The by-election will be an opportunity to highlight
and disgust people at the intolerable level
of poverty that exists in certain areas of Scotland.
This is completely unacceptable and Labour has
got to take full responsibility that this
happened under their 5 decades of 'leadership'. They
have let the Scottish people down and particularly
in areas like Glasgow East they have reduced them
to a level of existence which is completely
unacceptable. Labour stood by as the feeble-fifty
and let Thatcher destroy Scotland, and the when
Labour got in power they are squandering monies
on wars, trident, nationalizing Northern Rock,
continuing to squander 10's of million of Scotland
oil revenues on a daily basis, which is
all opportunity cost that could have
243

Traquir , Alba,

30/06/2008 21:42:59
cont.

Labour stood by as the feeble-fifty
and let Thatcher destroy Scotland, and the when
Labour got in power they are squandering monies
on wars, trident, nationalizing Northern Rock,
continuing to squander 10's of million of Scotland
oil revenues on a daily basis, which is
all opportunity cost that could have
been used to tackle the dire issues in
this type of area.

Labour have no moral authority
here, they have let Scotland down, they have
particularly let the people of Glasgow East down
and they should be thoroughly ashamed with the
current situation, but no for them Glasgow
East is just another safe political pawn that
gave them want they really wanted , namely
Westminster power.

The real focus of this by-election is
that the situation of poverty and poor
health issues in Glasgow East is completely
immoral and totally unacceptable, but
there is hope that something
different can be done. Unfortunately this
will be a tough sell as Labour have deliberately
squashed hope, confidence and any aspirations
from many of the people in Glasgow East. This
served Labour's own purposes, but at the what
cost ? Labour has had over 50 years and done
nothing for these types of area
except make them worse. Patronising statements
from the likes of Des Browne that with
Labour they know what side their bread is
buttered, just shows utter contempt for the electors.
Even if the SNP does not win this election,
and personally I think they will win, then at
the very least it will expose the Labour party
for the complete hypocrites that they are and
the absolute disgrace in what they have
created in Glasgow East.

Scotland needs to be free from Labour we deserve
much more for our future than they are capable
or willing to give us.
244

subrosa,

30/06/2008 21:43:08
# 323

Spot on!
245

George Laird,

Glasgow 30/06/2008 21:47:55
Dear Subrosa

As someone born and lived in Glasgow all of my life, I like to think I have a good idea about what the people would want.

Lachie McNeil is not the right candidate to take this seat.

It would be great if he were, but he is not.

The people of Glasgow East need an ordinary Glaswegian person to fight the seat.

Someone mentioned Elaine C Smith, she would not be right either.

To secure a win, the SNP need to do a lot of work, hard work with a candidate that is able to understand the people and work for them.

They need people to directly link with the candidate with the view that they see the person as "their" MP.

Ownership.

Lachie McNeil cannot in my opinion sell that one.

Just like Wendy Alexander couldn't sell herself as caring.

The SNP need a people's candidate........ an ordinary Glaswegian.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University
246

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30/06/2008 21:55:30
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247

subrosa,

30/06/2008 21:57:30
# 324

Well said. The SNP need a high profile candidate but I believe Elaine C Smith isn't interested in leaving Scotland to be in London (and who can blame her).

As I say that I have no biase towards Lachie McNeil but being a lawyer isn't a plus in any area of Scotland. Lawyers haven't been the 'flavour of the month' for some years as I know to my cost.
248

Traquir , Alba,

30/06/2008 22:10:23
328 Kent2,

"Elaine C Smith would make a good candidate but if not her then who else could be selected?"

That I don't know, but I am comfortable leaving
with the incomparable politician that is Alex
Salmond to make that decision :)

He could even do something pretty wild like
have one of the other proven SNP MPs resign their
relatively safe seats and take Glasgow East,
and then have a second by-election trouncing
to introduce new blood. This would be very audacious,
but I would not discount any options with Alex. He
will play the Westminster game better than they
can play it themselves. Perhaps he could even
agree a truce with Jim Sillars and have
him take up the mantle. Either way there would
just be too much guessing just now, better
to leave with those better qualified to make
that call - won't be long.
249

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 22:19:40
318
Why thankyou Ayrshire, I'm blushing...
250

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 22:23:57
332
"Elaine C Smith would make a good candidate but if not her then who else could be selected?"


Sir Sean, in his first step to be president of the Republic:-)
251

karinxxx,

30/06/2008 22:28:51
elaine c smith has just signed up for some play or musical or something so she cant stand as she is already commited.
252

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 22:33:23
336
A far better one than Charlie, no?
253

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 22:46:10
338
Shamshon Shillitoe;-)
254

Truely English,

30/06/2008 22:49:42
329
You need to live in the real world and realise the English language will take over from all but a few languages in Europe and the rest of the world.

In places like Denmark and Norway children as young as five years can speak English fluently. One more generation and there will be little need for these two languages other than for sentimental reasons.

More people in China are learning English than in Europe. Get real and live in the real world. Be proud of the fact that the Scots helped to create this strong English environment for you all worldwide.
255

,

30/06/2008 22:51:08
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 22:56:48
340
You are Truely insane, or a pushbutton troll.
257

Conan the Librarian™,

30/06/2008 22:58:10
341
Almost as funny as Ronald Reagan.
258

,

30/06/2008 23:04:10
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Richard Lionheart,

30/06/2008 23:38:19
Glasgow East. Your country needs YOU, to vote SNP.
260

0scar Apfel,

30/06/2008 23:42:30
What an entertaining thread!
261

Angus Ogg,

30/06/2008 23:59:49
I see that Willie Wonka is persisting with his insane, manic posts @ #313.
262

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 00:06:21
348
Did he go in for a tinkle?

349
One day he will get his Golden Ticket Angus...
263

Methaloins,

01/07/2008 00:09:23
What is the largest object you have managed to stuff your bum?

Simple rules, the object has to have dissapeared at least 75% up your bum and it must not have got stuck.

I once managed to get a 1.5L metal mini-keg of austrian lager up my derrier.
264

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 00:36:15
351
That would make it warm you idiot.

Red wine would have been better.
265

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 01/07/2008 12:19:07
Rab C Nesbitt would make a good leader of Labour or the SNP .
266

John R. Constable,

England 01/07/2008 12:45:16

Could somebody tell me the 'Central Scotland issue' is, that the SNP are supposedly avoiding?

Thanks.
267

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State..........Coatbridge 01/07/2008 14:59:15
Is that bring him down as in a peg or two do you think ?
I hope it would be to his knees for the audacity to take the coronation of Prime Minister without consulting the people of the country...you know those people... the one's he is supposed to serve !
But then he bottled it anyway...pity he didn't have the guts to stand against the War in Iraq....strange that; we kill innocent children in Iraq and then condemn Mugabe and the Sudanese government for the same kind of act...but then of course we are excused for "collateral damage"....Is that how he would describe wee wendy do you think?
268

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State.........Coatbridge 01/07/2008 15:09:22
How about a number of reasons for Independence then ?

Let's see....how about as a stand against Globalisation? ....You know, a buffer to halt the spread of extreme capitalism.

Or maybe in the same context that Westminster doesn't "like" handing over authority (all of it that is) to Brussels...what's good for the goose and all that,

Or, we want to have control over our own destiny where possible..well let's face it, who would buy a house and then leave it for your next door neighbour to tell you how to live and how to decorate your pad, and then tell you he's giving too much money towards your mortgage which you obviously couldn't afford anyway...

Come to think of it maybe we are in too much of a mess to look after ourselves?

In that famous line from Blazing Saddles.."We'll take the Poles but we don't want the Irish"
269

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 01/07/2008 19:47:51
I still find it so frustrating that so many scots are afraid/dont want us to stand on our own two feet?

Why? The rest of the world does it? Why do we not have the balls too?

The tide is slowly turning and I have belief in my lifetime "scottish" will be a nationality and not a regional term like "geordie".

This is what independence means for me, my country being equal to others and not a half nation it is now.

The state of shettleston should tell you something- if thats what the Union gets you, why are you afraid an Independent Scotland would be worse? How could it be!

Come on SNP, won the by election and sow the seeds of equality with all nations!
270

Mister Glasgow ( East ),

East End of Glasgow 02/07/2008 12:24:43
Dear politically aware...... Q. What are the criteria for standing as a candidate is this up and coming by election..... Q. Can a member of the public stand ?.... or what.
271

Mister Glasgow ( East ),

East End of Glasgow 02/07/2008 12:27:41
Reply to the above ....... at ..... misterglasgow@yahoo.co.uk Thanks.
272

scotstoun_voter,

glasgow 03/07/2008 23:47:56
snp announced local cllr john mason as selected candidate hes beat london lab before in a by election few yrs ago in garrowhill (now part of baillieston ward) in the glasgow east area

 

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