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Sir Menzies reveals Brown's secret talks on pact to deny SNP power



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Published Date: 05 March 2008
GORDON Brown held two secret meetings with Sir Menzies Campbell during last year's Scottish election campaign in an attempt to forge a new Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition and keep the SNP out of power, it emerged last night.
The then Chancellor tried to get the agreement of the former Lib Dem leader for an anti-SNP coalition – even though neither politician had the power to make such an agreement.

The secret meetings, held behind the backs of their respective Scottish parties, were disclosed in Sir Menzies' autobiography, which was released to the press last night.

In Menzies Campbell: My Autobiography, Sir Ming describes how he met Mr Brown twice in Edinburgh during last year's election campaign – once on Easter Sunday and once on election day itself, when it was clear that the SNP was ahead in the polls and heading for victory.

On both occasions, Mr Brown asked for a new Labour-Lib Dem coalition as he did not want the SNP to control the Scottish Executive and its £30 billion budget.

Sir Ming told Mr Brown that, although he was also against an SNP-led devolved administration, he could not decide coalition policy, as that was in the hands of the party's Scottish leader, Nicol Stephen.

Jack McConnell, the then Scottish Labour leader, was not invited to the meetings, and Sir Ming gives the impression that Mr Brown was operating without the knowledge or approval of the Scottish Labour leadership.

News that Mr Brown was working behind the scenes to forge an anti-SNP coalition will infuriate Nationalists and embarrass Scottish Labour leaders, particularly as Mr McConnell made it clear after the SNP won last year's election that Alex Salmond would be given the chance to form a government.

Sir Ming writes that Mr Brown first called him at home on Easter Sunday last year to ask for a discreet meeting. He states: "Like me, he was anxious about the possibility of the SNP governing in Scotland, our own backyard. Was there common ground between Labour and the Lib Dems to tackle the SNP together? He made a number of suggestions. I told him I would have to discuss them with Nicol Stephen.

"He then raised possibilities for a new coalition between the Lib Dems and Labour on the assumption that the two parties had enough seats jointly to form a government."

Sir Ming writes that this was difficult for him as such decisions were for Mr Stephen.

As the election campaign drew to a close, Mr Brown was in touch again. Sir Ming writes: "We met at the same discreet place as before. Throughout the campaign, the polls had put the SNP ahead of Labour. Was there scope for an arrangement between our parties?

"What would be the consequences for Scotland and our parties if the SNP used the £30 billion Scottish Executive budget to build support for independence over the next few years?"

Sir Ming also explains how the Scottish Lib Dem leadership team met at his Edinburgh home the night after the SNP's victory to eat pizza and decide what to do. "After two hours, we packed away our pizza boxes and any possibility of a coalition deal with the SNP," he writes in the book, published next week by Hodder & Stoughton.

Sir Ming also reveals that both he and Tavish Scott, the Lib Dems' election campaign manager, were against an SNP-Lib Dem coalition, but a deal with Labour was still a possibility.

Mr Brown contacted Sir Ming the next day. Sir Ming writes that he had to be "circumspect" as he was not supposed to "muscle in" on Scottish party affairs.

By the time Mr Scott went on BBC Scotland's Politics Show the following day, all forms of coalition had been ruled out for the Lib Dems, which is what Mr Scott then announced.

VICTORY FOR SALMOND ON CROSS-BORDER BODY
ALEX Salmond secured a significant victory last night when Gordon Brown gave his formal consent to the creation of a new cross-Border body to resolve differences between the various administrations around the UK.

Mr Salmond has been calling for the recreation of some sort of committee to sort out disputes since he came to office.

Paul Murphy, the Welsh Secretary, said that he had been asked by the Prime Minister to take charge of the formation of the new Joint Ministerial Committee, which will act as a forum for discussion for all the devolved administrations and the Westminster government.

The Scotsman revealed last week that ministers were close to agreeing the format of the new body. Mr Murphy said last night he would chair the first plenary session of the new JMC, which is expected to involve the First Ministers of the devolved administrations, and that Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, would chair a meeting before the summer.

The full article contains 818 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 March 2008 8:29 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 00:09:47
The more stories like this to come out the more untenable Broon's position is becoming. Lets get rid of these scumbags at the first chance.

Who said in 1997, "We will clean up politics...
The Conservatives are afflicted by sleaze and prosper from secret funds from foreign supporters. There is unquestionably a national crisis of confidence in our political system, to which Labour will respond in a measured and sensible way."???

Lies, lies and more lies.


Who said in 1997 "Remember, you are not here to enjoy the trappings of power, but to do a job and to uphold the highest standards in public life, we must be purer than pure" ????

Lies, lies and more lies.
2

Matt there,

somewhere 05/03/2008 00:12:44
Good Lord! Is there NO end to the vanity and control freak tendencies of Gordon Brown?
3

Resolutions,

05/03/2008 00:17:56
Suspected this a good while ago!
4

subrosa,

05/03/2008 00:18:17
So the future of the Libs in Scotland was decided by Ming Campbell and Tavish Scott over pizza? Kind of explains the disappearance of oor Nicol around this time.

As for Brown well he so disappoints me. To think some years ago I used to respect the man. What a fool I was but I've learned. He's only concerned with saving his own skin and nothing else.
5

Highland Mighty,

05/03/2008 00:24:48
3. I had pretty much assumed this was the case too!

How else would they stay in power?
6

,

05/03/2008 00:34:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 00:35:10
It's official - Broon is sh*t scared of our First Minister!!LOL
8

walter,

05/03/2008 00:37:41
Is this another non story from this rag of a paper? Oh no it cannot be as this story is a derogatory article about Labour and the Lib/Dems so it must be good reporting by an excellent paper, it is only when they print a derogatory article about the SNP that it is a non story by a rag paper.
9

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 00:40:19
#9
Yes, do I detect balance here?
10

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 00:52:32
Awrite thair JJ?

Dinny trust the Hootsmon, they'll pull this story when the on-line editor gets oot his pit in the morning!
11

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 00:56:03
#11
How are you AJ?

Thought Walter had a bit of a point - I just like sitting on the fence - shooting when I see fit!!
12

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 01:03:46
JJ#12,

Same as masel! :D
13

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 01:07:18
#14AJ

Want a good fitba debate try BBC 606 - all teams have there own pages including the mighty EF - try it I think you will like it.
14

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 01:09:00
JJ,

They never publish ma comments fur some reason....
15

J J MAROONER,

05/03/2008 01:11:56
16#

Curse of the Moderator eh?

Catch you later AJ need my beauty sleep or I will loose my youthful appearance.
16

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:19:56
From the Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/05/nscots105.xml
'Gordon Brown has ordered a review of the controversial Barnett formula under which Scottish people receive £1,500 subsidy each a year from English taxpayers'
In the same article:
David Cameron said "It's not those perfidious Scots taking all our money. If you replace Barnett with a needs-based formula, then Scotland will still get a large amount of money."
Sorry Dave dont trust anyone in Westmninster anymore!
especially using the word 'perfidious'. In case anyone is not sure what it means, the dictionery states 'perfidious - tending to betray; especially having a treacherous character
17

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:24:45
Always knew the perfidious Brown was a control freak
he wasnt called Stlin for nothing when he was in the treasury!
18

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:47:27
#20
Have just read that extract from Hansard, when Baron Foulkes stood up on the 15th October 2007 and spouted that rubbish. The guy is a two faced creep. He has the cheek to be a member of a parliament that he clearly does not believe in and believes that Labour should rule Scotland in perpetuity. the guy should be barred from entering Holyrood
19

Edward,

05/03/2008 02:59:43
This story alos confirms my suspicion's that Brown is covertly working to undermine the SNP government. He even is trying to control the Labour party in Scotland by having his own choice of leader in Wendy Alexander
If he can have secret talks with a leader from another party about controling Scotland. The question that begs to be answered is what else is he involved with, with his own party members!
Brown is being manipulative, as we see with, first the restriction on the budget for Scotland, then more recent the refusal by Westminster to hand over the £ 400 million which was tagged for council benefit, but which ,can be used for any other purpose as it is Scotlands money held by the treasury!. Now the next thing will be the barnett formula. Brown has his other lapdog, Jacqui Smith continually frustrating the work of the Scottish Justice ministry and not cooperating what so ever. There is without doubt a patern emerging that Brown is working to destroy the SNP government both covertly and overtly. Each episode taken on its own doesnt amount to much, but when looked at collectively, the stench from Westminster is becoming stronger
20

Mac Gill-eathan,

If I tell you-you die 05/03/2008 03:24:16
If ever there was a despicible wretch then it is surely that perfidious sleekit weed Tavish Scott, I would have no compulsion dispatching him with the appropriate round, no qualms at all, you unionist lacky's know where to put your bourgeois pleasntries by now i am sure!! Your all the same contemptious breed of prize rat bags.
21

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/03/2008 03:54:08
SO come on AM, try and defend these scumbags now!
22

donald,

glasgow 05/03/2008 04:03:52
Nothing new in this. The Onionist parties have always connived behind the Chair to the detriment of Scottish interests.
23

Bob10,

05/03/2008 04:06:44

"Sir Ming writes that this was difficult for him as such decisions were for Mr Stephen."

Obviously, Sir Ming wants to miss no available opportunity to grease Nicol Stephen's skids. Not a lot to draw between him and Broon!

Honour among thieves. Aye. Right.
24

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 05/03/2008 05:20:07
As certain cartoon character says - "what a maroon!"

After Blair ran rings round him think fatty Broon would have known his limits and had his fill of daft smoke-filled-room deals, but some folks never learn.

And dealing with the Libs really! What a shower. Ming the Purseless could be trusted to keep his trap shut about as long as... well something that just can't keep its trap shut at all really!

So now we are going to have to hear endless conspiracy whinging from the Gnats.

Whit a carry on!
25

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 05/03/2008 05:56:36
This was mild compared with Labour's underhand efforts to kill the devolution project from the beginning. Maybe Gordon Brown is softening in his old age.

26

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/03/2008 06:04:33
No surprise here, first the unionist parties propose Devolution as a way of cutting off the SNP at the knees. Then they make sure that it uses a proportional representation system to make it as effective as an Italian parliament. When both these schemes go down the pike, they decide that the only way forward is join together to oppose anything that the SNP proposes no matter how worthy (see story on Tagging as Jail alternative)to make their government ineffective.
They do however make one mistake, their backhanded dealing at the detriment of Scotland is all coming to light. I think we will see an absolute route of all the Unionist Parties at the next election.
27

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 05/03/2008 06:10:58
THERE IS ONE SOLUTION
"INDEPENDENCE"
CASEY PURVIS
28

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/03/2008 06:44:46
Labour is plotting with Lib Dems to prevent a referendum of Europe. What more proof is needed that Britain is not a democracy? All 3 main parties promised us a vote.
29

Banoo20,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 07:11:46
Surely this man must be held accountable and brought down
30

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/03/2008 07:15:48
It's absolutely extraordinary that this story has come out in public - an absolutely blatant, naked attempt to subvert and ignore the democratically-expressed wishes of the Scottish people, more of whom voted for the SNP than for anyone else, clearly giving the SNP the moral right to form the administration. How anyone can continue to vote for these cheats, liars and traitors is beyond my understanding.

I apologise for using the word "naked" in conjunction with Gordon Brown and Ming Campbell, by the way.
31

Ian C,

People Democratic Republic of Fife 05/03/2008 07:29:23
Are these guys actually Scottish ?

By the way the Labour dirty tricks campaign re the SNP has been going on for years.

Jim Sillars (the best Scottish Secy of State we never had) explained all this to me some years ago (and he was ex Labour).

Right now they are doing all they can to sink the SNP. Labour and Brown (and I have met him twice) are not interested in Scotland, that is for sure. They are interested in power. Stuff the people.
32

Thomas1,

\\ 05/03/2008 07:43:38
What is brown and mings?
answers on a postcard please and send to labour headquarters.
33

Cam3,

05/03/2008 07:46:31
Labour ARE NOT to be trusted.

Labour DO NOT act in the interests of Scotland.

This merely confirms what a great many in Scotland already know.

I recall the meanderings of Brown and Menzies last year post-election. I knew in a heartbeat that the 'Scottish' Liberals would - under no circumstances - make a deal with the SNP - DESPITE their party having a REAL opportunity of pressing home their own apparent portfolio. I hope their voters desert them after this confirmation.

They never gave a reason. They never gave a reason that made any kind of sense at least, after the SNP offered the 'more powers' third question (a key liberal ideal apparently).

It was gutless unionist politicking at its very worst.

Before the election the Labour party in Scotland at once:

- Spoke down to the Scottish people. You're 'subsidised' (for the 'we've never had it so good brigade]
- Tried to influence votes by singly contemptible lies i.e. cross border relationships dying, Balkanization, Scotland a target for Bin Laden, the 5k tax bill, ex-party officials in PP-broadcasts etc Utterly deplorable.
- Pushed themselves as Scotland's 'only choice'.

Scaremongering. Lies. Deceit. Please understand, this union means that ANY party who is directed from London CANNOT - CANNOT - represent Scotland. Like most truths, it's that simple.

Since the election of course, we've seen Labour do ANYTHING it can to spanner any progressive Scottish govt. ambitions, inc. their sudden interest in the 'more powers' for Edinburgh issue. Something they were diagrammatically opposed to but six months before.

It is astonishing. Simply astonishing.

For the 'we've never had it so good' brigade and Labour-voting 'ma faither's faither' division PLEASE do NOT vote for these people. You can have it BETTER and BRIGHTER if we throw their negative, shambolic lies to the four winds.This is nothing less than opaque political espionage and for Scotland's sake you should NOT put up with it.

LAB/
34

Cam3,

05/03/2008 07:46:48
LAB/LIB/CONS = Scotland in chains, always...
35

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 07:47:34
Shame it didn't work out the way Gordon wanted..Better for all the peoples of the U.K if it had.


the cross-Border body is called 'The All Britain' Committee'
The First Minster's (whomever they will be given they are all retiring) can talk amongst themselves then request to Jack Straw who then reports to the Prime minister...And then back down to the First ministers...
36

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 07:53:07
Well said, Ian C.

Theres no doubt that Brown is capable of any action that allows him to achieve his lifelong ambition of lying to anyone, especially the Scottish People, if it allows him to finally be Prime Minister of his beloved Britain. His actions in this case prove to all that he is one of the most dangerous of supposed politicians seen in this group of countries.

Charges should be laid, immediately after Independance, and the appropriate sentence should apply in a case of treason.

The SNP have always promoted the democratic process as the way to persue its aims. You can bet that Nicol was sitting in the wings awaiting his fate, when Browne conspired with Minging and Tavish Scott to undermine the political will of the Scottish People. Tavish must have dropped his bundle at the last minute. Besides his stuff ups, this is as low as it gets for Tavish Scott. The SNP Scottish Government and the Scottish People should take to the streets in protest, by demanding Brown and Tavish resign immediately.

And to think the moron Brown is in office despite never being voted for by all the Nations of these Islands. The poor English People are now stuck with him until the next election, when I am sure they will let this fascist dictator Brown, know their opinion of his ministry of corruption.

As for all the British Nats on this forum. They should be very ashamed for ever endorsing the actions of Brown and Blair. Treason by way of lying to the people and Parliaments of these islands over WMD's that have cost 1.6 million Iraqi/Afghanistan lifes to date. Together with this docuemented proof of treason to the Democratic Process in all the Countries.
37

eric,

05/03/2008 07:56:16
Secret! hehe The Union is driftwood now,Its like being several years along line from a dead relative you never liked!
38

Richardinho,

05/03/2008 07:59:26
What this shows that had we had another lib/lab pact in holyrood, it would not have governed in the interests of Scotland but in the interests of the party leaders down in Westminster.
39

,

05/03/2008 07:59:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/03/2008 08:01:36
#38
"Better for all the peoples of the U.K if it had."
I don't see how having Government led by liars serves anybody's interest. Except perhaps the interests of the scoundrels themselves, and sycophants like you.
41

A Better Way,

05/03/2008 08:02:33
Nikstratos, you sad little person. And if this had happened, please explain what would have been next.

As much as you spout rubbish one liners on this forum. the majority on here would have assumed that you had some level of principles. Betraying ALL the People of the various countries is a reprehensible act typical of the likes of Mugabe etc. Please try to assume some form of priciples before morons such as yourself leave us in the hands of an unscrupulous Dictator void of any selfcontrol or respect for democracy.
42

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:02:59
Why do you lot of snp drone bother coming hear feigning shock horror at a pro-union paper then post your Garbage.

Why can you not clear off to another 'Nationalist' web site......your obviously not welcome at the Scotsman...
43

Ubi,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 08:03:15
Government of the people by the government for the government.
44

Gusto,

05/03/2008 08:08:24
Good for this newspaper to publish the story - must have woken up a few freelance editors, and a few nightmares for the resident ones.
What Brown was trying to prevent, was the absolute independence of Scotland during his premiership. Same with Bliar. Brown will try again - this is how politics work. No surprizes here. Or is it Sir Mangie trying to put a good slant on his own actions - he did go to the meeting TWICE didnt he?
45

Bob Christie,

Fiefdom of Broon 05/03/2008 08:08:48
This is all you will get from Broon. He has to rely on conytrol freakery and spin to conceal his total lack of political talent.
But we have been saying that for years and still the Labour numpties in this constituency select him. He has nothing here and did nothing when he was the Dunfermline MP except welcome the building (at great public expense) of a huge factory which was never occupied.
Mandelson was right when he stated that Broon was psychologically flawed.
He is a rotten MP, and an even more rotten PM.

#39

You say it all really. Well done.
46

Bob Christie,

05/03/2008 08:10:27
#45

With a comment like that you MUST be New Labour!
47

EWB,

UK 05/03/2008 08:10:44
#36, Labour do not act in the UK's interests, either. Just look at how they are going to force through the Lisbon Treaty against popular will. No Parliament should bind its successors, but this one will.

#40, if the UK is driftwood, so too will Scotland be. Under Article 176a of the Lisbon Treaty, the EU will have power for the first time over the whole field of energy and Britain's (Scotland's) oil and gas reserves.

So much for Alex Salmond's fradulent aspiration for "an independent Scotland in Europe". The best wee EU region, more like.
48

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:10:58
#44

you mean like wee eck...........4'8'' is not little anyway

#44

Unless i am mistaken the holyrood parliament can choose amongst themselves any First minister and or the composition of any Government they wish. Regardless of party.

SCOTLAND ELECTED A DEVOLVED PARLIAMENT OF REPRESENTATIVES NOT A ONE PARTY STATE RULED BY ONE INDIVIDUAL LEADER.
49

bunker,

05/03/2008 08:12:59
The thing that sticks in the throat most, is the amount of Scots that are conspiring in Westminster against the wishes of the people they are supposed to represent.
They have been found out and the harder they try the more they are pushing Scotland away from the UK. now they are threatening pulling the barnett formula.

Keep going, you are doing a grand job Mr Broon
50

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/03/2008 08:15:08
Niko likes poems.

Good King Broon first looked out on Nicol Stephen.
When their seats in Holyrood were just about even.
"Come my boy let us unite against Alex Salmond"
"We'll put the Scots in their place, and save our wretched union"

Sung to the the tune of "King Wenceslas"
51

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:17:22
#53

Yours is more Horst Wessel
52

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 05/03/2008 08:20:00
#46 What about Government of the Government by the people for the people?
53

The Honest Lad,

Musselburgh 05/03/2008 08:25:05
so he made a phone call to sound something out. So what? nothing came of it and if the pair of them had believed in it then they may have asked there parties to look at it further.

54

jdships,

05/03/2008 08:28:14
44 A Better Way,

"an unscrupulous Dictator void of any selfcontrol or respect for democracy. "

That surely describes Brown, Salmond , Paisley et al.

You are really deluded if you think these people listen to anything the voter says .
Politicians are egotists by nature and massive control freaks by desire
Did not vote SNP but as I have said many times before am happy to give AS time to prove he is the right person/party for the job .
As of 5/3 "the jury's still out" for me !!
55

Nikostratos,

05/03/2008 08:29:17
#50

Don't be silly the U.K Parliament could leave the E.U if it so decided
56

Sgurr,

05/03/2008 08:39:14
More or less normal, expected politicing, if you ask me. It shows any doubters that Labour and the Libs in Scotland are very much run from Westminster, with a local "branch office" and "duty manager" here in Edinburgh.

Ever tried to get an important decision from a duty manager??? Not easy...they always have to escalate upwards to the real boss....
57

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 08:47:54
The people of Scotland obviously cannot be trusted to know what is best for them. Gordon and Menzies knew better than the voters.
This explains the shambles that took place in May when the Scottish LibDems who almost shared a manifesto with the SNP could not bring themselves to form a coalition. They were told that they couldn't and had to find a story to fit !
Poor Nicol, can't wait to see what Alex does to him at the weekly Seal Clubbing on Thursday.
58

danielrober,

05/03/2008 08:48:05
What a very clever political action by Gordon Brown. Brown has made it clear to all in the West Country that the Scottish Lib Dems will vote for separatation.

Many people have suspected that some Lib Dems have been pushing for a stronger separation stance since they got rid of Charles K, as leader. Nicol Stephen, turned down the opportunity to be a miniters, MMMMM. Why?

So will the Lib Dems, return to being the Liderals and the Democrates, two parties again?
59

thinking,

Scotland 05/03/2008 08:53:05
what a non-article
Surely Brown was doing what most politicians do, trying to keep power and trying to keep the opposition out. What's new about that?
60

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 05/03/2008 08:53:15
Brown Out!
61

JB2003,

05/03/2008 09:02:58
Apparently Scotland's subsidised by England - think a few folks on here would like to check out this article as it shows that even the mighty Telegraph can stoop to gutteral baseless tabloid anti-Scots xenophobia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/05/nscots105.xml
62

McNasty,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 09:08:46
GB, MP and PM of GB will never let us down. The SNP that is.

As for SIR MING and GB describing Scotland as "OUR BACK YARD," it makes the skin creep.
63

Watson,

Irvine 05/03/2008 09:08:56
Just shows that Brown feared the SNP before last May's election and knew that McConnell and his mob were not up to the job. Now what will he do as Scotland has a Government that is working for the people of Scotland and not self interest? We must all remember what tricks have been played in the past and look out for what he will attempt in the future
64

Steve,

Bo'ness 05/03/2008 09:11:30
Gordon Brown is an utter disgrace, and an affront to democracy. Surely people will now see him for what he is. Power hungry, shallow and desperate. Remember him after election day, slithering out of his house in a blacked out Jaguar, back to London? Or slithering out of Hampden early when Scotland lost to Italy?
He doesn't give a damn about Scotland, just saving his own creepy neck. Pathetic.
65

JB2003,

05/03/2008 09:11:57
68 - McNasty

Ming and GB are both Scottish. They're referring to Scotland as their back yard in the sense that it's their home.
66

Doh,

05/03/2008 09:25:46


Sounds like the phone call was rather short and Ming reminded Brown that Nicol Stephen was the Scottish leader.

How long will we have to wait until we find out what Salmond said to Nicol Stephen about a coalition?

Anyway the SNP are happy with their Tory lapdogs now so all is well that ends well.


67

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 05/03/2008 09:27:13
It has taken 60 years, but I am happy that the population are now beginning to see the politicians in their true colours.
The back stabbing, the level of intrigue and conniving that has been their stock and trade all that time.
We are now in the time of control freaks, who are either subservient because of the skeletons, or that they have been caught with their hands in the till; then of course the greed factor prevails with their snouts in the trough.
Local government was bad enough with brown envelopes, but with Westminster at £250.00 for a bottle of milk, I ask you have we yet seen enough to do something about it.
68

kimba,

05/03/2008 09:31:56


Questions over £1,500 tax subsidy for Scots

By Simon Johnson, Scottish Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 6:20am GMT 05/03/2008

Have your say Read comments

Gordon Brown has ordered a review of the controversial Barnett formula under which Scottish people receive £1,500 subsidy each a year from English taxpayers, The Daily Telegraph has learnt.
# How the Barnett formula works
# Have your say: Does England get a fair deal?

The Prime Minister wants the policy re-examined in an attempt to head off mounting English resentment over the millions of pounds of public money sent to Scotland every year.

Scottish parliamen in Holyrood - Barnett formula to be reviewed
There is growing resentment among English MPs and voters over perks handed to Scots but denied to them

Facing growing public anger and pressure from his ministers, Mr Brown has had to look again at the level of support English taxpayers provide.

Treasury figures show Scots are better off by £1,500 a head in terms of public spending than the English.

In a move expected to reignite tensions between the Westminster and Edinburgh parliaments, Mr Brown has told Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, to look again at the Barnett formula.

Downing Street confirmed last night that the review - which could end the much-maligned formula - had been ordered "to inform the debate". Mr Darling will present its findings in the next few months.
69

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 05/03/2008 09:33:05
It's not so much the furtive back-room arrangements between Broon and Sir Ming, it's the fact that their previous coalition was a failure. So, what do numpties do when faced with a problem? Yes, they do exactly the same thing they tried the first time which led to the failure. A bit like Ms Alexander's "re-launch" with the same failed "vulnerable (whatever)" announcements.

That's Labour. However, the question "what are they for" apart from trying to scrabble into undeserved power could apply to the LibDems. Both these parties deserve each other and the more they demonstrate their arrogance and desperation for power, the more we notice it and will vote accordingly.
70

Lisbon-Lion,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 09:33:35
Through out our history Scots have sold our country for Englands gold and this is another example!

Gordon Brown and Scottish labour don't give a damn about Scotland or our people, power, greed and self preservation are more important. I'm ashamed that Brown and Campbell are Scottish.
71

,

05/03/2008 09:33:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

,

05/03/2008 09:34:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

brownlie,

glasgow 05/03/2008 09:37:41
45 Nikostratos - That's right, pal, stifle all debate - as we have not had a democracy in britain for years it is pointless anyway
74

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 09:39:22
"Jack McConnell, the then Scottish Labour leader, was not invited to the meetings, and Sir Ming gives the impression that Mr Brown was operating without the knowledge or approval of the Scottish Labour leadership."

London Labour devolution in action, yet again.
75

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 09:41:59
"After two hours, we packed away our pizza boxes and any possibility of a coalition deal with the SNP,"
Slow eaters, slow thinkers !
Could they not bring themselves to eat haggis suppers ?
76

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 09:42:23
42. "The only people taking umberance are the Usual malcontent snp Drone's I note Normal people are getting on with their lives..............


Said Niko, who has posted 14 posts of stultifying stupidity on this thread since 6.50am...
77

Phillip,

05/03/2008 09:50:12
Maybe this will finally wake up enough of the people of Scotland to give a mandate for independence!
78

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 09:52:38
I hope Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon does cut funding via the Barnett formulae. Nothing like a bit of childish behaviour to focus the Scottish electorate at the forthcoming election. Labour will get wiped out (as the deserve) and will never again taste power anywhere. My wife's granny, who voted Labour all her life (because I'm working class) voted SNP last May and has been delighted with what has transpired.
Anyway on a lighter note, not long to our weekly episode of FMQ's. Highlight of the week watching Wendy. Lard Foolkes and Nicol get their regular humiliation. I wonder what Our Dear Leader thinks when he watches?
79

Freshford Fresh,

Dundee 05/03/2008 09:57:13
How underhand. How surprising that a Labour politician could be involved in such things.

#78 Don't it feel good?
80

AJ Fife,

05/03/2008 10:04:04
#82,

Spot on observation Ayrshire!:D
81

Jimmy the Pie,

05/03/2008 10:06:28
Parcel of Rogues.

The Tories were corrupt when they got kicked out of office in 1997.
New Labour Sleaze and Corruption are worse (hard to believe, I know).

Can anyone add to this list of corrupt New Labour Sleaze and Corruption party worthies??

Tony Blair.
Gordon Brown.
Lord Goldsmith.
Lord Levy.
Bernie Ecclestone
Ron Davies
Keith Vaz
Geoffrey Robinson
Peter Mandelson (twice)
John Prescott (thrice)
David Blunkett (twice)
Tessa Jowell
Stephen Byers
John Reid
Peter Hain
Wendy Alexander (lost count!)
Peter Watt
Charlie Gordon
Frank Roy
Michael Martin
Matthew Marr
Paul Green
Mike Russell
Lard Foolkes
Lee Jasper
82

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 05/03/2008 10:06:47
It's annoying, but who's really surprised.

Time though for the following, the media to follow this up by asking Wendy, and Nicol for their comments.

Labour and Lib dem suppoters to tell us what they think of this and finally, those unionists who pooh, poohed the idea of conspiricys on these pages in the past to comment, was Gordon trying to set one up or not?

Come on now, you know who you are.
83

Queen D,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 10:10:47
Last May this devious little ploy was hinted at in the press.
We are hearing Mings side of the story glossed up for his book.
I believe he had made a pact in Westminster and that the Scottish Libs were then told ,under no circumstances form a coalition with the SNP.
That must have put Nicol ( the Nose ) Stevens nose out of joint and left him with feeble excuses for not forming an alliance with the SNP.
I almost feel sorry for him. Almost ,but not quite!
84

Boggle fey the Bog,

05/03/2008 10:11:11
#69 Watson, Irvine

I agree with you wholeheartedly, and this brings up the question of GERS (No not the Teddy Bears),But the Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland Report for 2006/7, which was due out last December, but will now not be published until May/June this year.

Perhaps this is what he is 'doing' next.

Given that Extra-Regio, Oil and Gas revenues have increased considerably in the past 3 years or so, and that Scotland's 'share' is 95% of such, he's got to 'Doctor' the figures to prove that we are indeed 'subsidised' by England.

In case you are unaware of the existence of this 'new' part of the UK, Extra-Regio, is a new region in the UK, that consists of the German Ocean Oil and Gas fields and is directly ruled from No 10 Downing Street London.
This region, although most of it falls within 'Scottish Territorial Waters' i.e the waters that the Scottish Government has to police and pay for the same, in terms of Fisheries Protection, and German Ocean* Oil and Gas Platform protection. has no taxation 'credited to the 'Scottish' account, this includes not only Oil Revenue, but also 'Corporation Tax' paid by the Oil and Gas extraction companies.
This 'money' is then put in the UK general fund, and 8.6% ( our population share) is allocated for 'Scottish use, a short fall of 86.4% or basically one eleventh of the revenue generated!!!, from Scottish Territorial Reserves.

I also wonder if he will get the Corporation Tax and Excise Duty figures correct this time round, given that RBS had a whopping great increase in profits last year, not to mention that Scotland produces 35% of the spirits consumed in the UK and 38% of the Beer.
Custom and Excise duty is 'paid' at the distilleries and brewery 'gate'.
But strangely, though, this money is being 'credited to the 'London Headquarters' of the distillery and brewing companies, although it is being 'collected' in Scotland.

Brown is a Rogue and a Scoundrel and his shenanigans bring Scotland into
85

Boggle fey the Bog,

05/03/2008 10:11:48
#92 cont:

Brown is a Rogue and a Scoundrel and his shenanigans bring Scotland into disrepute.

It's time!!!

#89 Harriet Harman (for a few hundred grand) ;-)

*German Ocean, or German Sea, the un-Anglicised name for the North Sea
86

Cam3,

05/03/2008 10:13:42
#83 Grushka.

Absolutely.

With regards 'Scotland's place in the union' one only has to think rationally for a moment - on any manner of topics - to see we're being stitched sideways. Sadly, many people are unaware of the ongoing travesty that is the union.

Sighhh. Put up your feet. Watch 'coast' on the TV. realise that Scotland has a lot of it. We really are a people 'bound and made by the sea'. Then also realise that along this huge extensive coastline our links to mainland Europe, even other parts of these islands, are an absolute ******* joke.

It's all about the South-East.

What's depressing about people like Brown and co. is that Scotland CAN be something exceptionally unique. There is room for positive, exciting political ideology and change...

...yet all these rat bags can do is suffocate their own, tell us that we're not able, and ensure more of the same at Westminster.

I cannot understand Scottish unionism. Not because I have little time for unionist view's/people - but because they simply do not make any sense, from any aspect of common sense...
87

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 10:15:53
89. Kimmy

At a very brief inspection, I think you have ommitted:

- the Labour election fraudsters that a judge desccribed as "suitable for a banana republic"....
"Labour election fraud ‘would disgrace a banana republic’" - Times ...5 Apr 2005 ... www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article377468.ece


- Henry McLeish (muddles not fiddle)

- The chair of Wendy Alexanders constituency party (police investigation for fraud)

- Mike Watson (arson)

- Ron Brown (breaking and entering/ attempted knicker theft)

- Harriet Harman (illegal donations)

- Labour General Secretary (facilitating illegal donations)

- That Labour councillor in Edinburgh who failed to declare his £40k

In fact there are too many to list.

As Tony Blair said of Labour "We must be whiter than white to rebuild trust"
88

HughB,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:16:56
Forget about the sham and time wasting enquiry into the calling in of the Donald Trump plans.

LETS HAVE A BIG ENQUIRY IN SCOTLAND INTO WHY ALL OUR ALL MONEY HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM US BY WESTMINSTER FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS.

That will amount to a lot more money than a $1 billion golf complex. LETS HAVE A MAJOR ENQUIRY RIGHT NOW!!!!
89

HughB,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:22:03
Forget about the sham and time wasting enquiry into the calling in of the Donald Trump plans.

LETS HAVE A BIG ENQUIRY IN SCOTLAND INTO WHY ALL OUR OIL MONEY HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM US BY WESTMINSTER FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS.

That will amount to a lot more money than a $1 billion golf complex. LETS HAVE A MAJOR ENQUIRY RIGHT NOW!!!!

Westminster wouldn't want that at all, because it would make the oil money FIASCO too public.

Forget about Wendys kanagaroo review of devolution. Lets have a review of all of Scotland natural resources, and why they are being bled dry by Westminster!!!
90

ex-labour,

05/03/2008 10:22:19
83/84# Excellent posts.

89# Just give it a couple of days, there'll be more to add.
91

Cam3,

05/03/2008 10:22:35
Right-on HughB [#96]
92

Hamish Scott,

05/03/2008 10:24:17
This is how things have been done for years, reprehensible as it is. What is new is that this sort of stuff is now boming out in the open.
93

Alan Reid,

nz 05/03/2008 10:25:23
42 Nikostratos, Why don't you f@ck off you LITTLE
pr!ck!
94

Doh,

05/03/2008 10:25:43
#77 Wardog

I dont see any reason why we cant believe MIng's version of events - after all what was discussed came about.

The SNP and LibDems did not form a coalition and also
Labour, the LibDems did not prevent the SNP from forming a minority government.

As I partisan observer I would say that the minority government is working quite well. The SNP can reach out and form majorities in the parliament.
As I said in the recent past it has been the SNP and Tories but I wonder if that might change in the coming year if the SNP pursue some of their other policies.

Dont forget that the LibDems voted with the SNP to abolish the graduate endowment tax and there are other policies in common.

For me, better for Scotland if they can work more closely togther rather than exhanging insults all the time (and I know Nicol has been one of the worst offenders).
95

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 05/03/2008 10:26:15
There are a lot of comments about Brown despising democracy itself.

This is hardly news. Labour have broken their manifesto promise on an EU referendum; the overwhelming majority of people demand a referendum but Labour despise this. The UK is like some tinpot banana republic controlled by the mafia.
96

Cam3,

05/03/2008 10:30:11
#103 - I agree. Labour undermine and misrepresent the English too. No arguments there.

But Brown and co. have also used the 'subsidy' argument for their own end, in targeting Scots feelings on the union. A form of fearmongering. This has encouraged and smelted this common misconception in England and political anti-Scottishness.

But hold on, remember when Brown and co. said exactly the OPPOSITE when the Herald 'broke' with the story highlighting this as nonsense? Why? It suited what Brown was trying to do then (publicly emphasise Scotland's 'valued' and valid contribution in a union of equals).

Labour. You couldn't make it up. How can ANYONE vote for their Scottish counterparts beggars belief.