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Should Scottish women be defined as having a reduced legal capacity?

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Published Date: 14 January 2008
GRAHAM GREIG believes the proposed changes to the laws on rape – such as defining consent to juries – won't serve the interests of women, men or justice.
IT WOULDN'T be much of defence if any of us were to stand up in court charged with drink-driving to plead not guilty on the grounds that we were drunk at the time. Our judgment was so impaired by alcohol that we should not be held responsible for our
actions in getting behind the wheel of the car and reversing into a bollard or careering into a row of parked cars or killing someone.

The law takes the view we are all responsible for our actions. And, if our actions include getting completely pissed, then we are still responsible. Being drunk is no excuse.

In courts, pub brawlers are given no sympathy if they try to explain their action in breaking a complete stranger's jaw was completely out of character due to drink taken. Like stand-up comics who have an armoury of put-downs to hecklers, sheriffs have a well used repertoire of humiliating dismissals of people foolish enough to offer being drunk as mitigation for their actions.

I am not sympathetic to sexual assaults on women – I am not a rape denier. But the proposals for further amendment of rape law in Scotland in the name of increasing the percentage chances of successful prosecutions are largely bizarre and insulting to the intelligence of anyone living in the real Scotland rather than an ideological hologram of it.

The central proposal is that the concept of consent should be defined to help juries understand what is being said to them. That's my first problem – the unchallenged premise that people on juries are too stupid to understand the judge when s/he explains to them the nature of evidence and the requirement that in their deliberations they should convict only if they are sure beyond reasonable doubt that the prosecution has proved its case.

The weasel variation on the premise that juries are too stupid to understand is that they are inherently prejudiced against women. Why are they said to be stupid and/or prejudiced? Because some people who, unlike them, have not heard all the evidence decide they if a jury acquits a man accused of rape then that is the wrong verdict.

That is an insidious and unsupported calumny on the diligence of the individuals who do their jury service. The alleged evidence is based on specially commissioned public-opinion surveys masquerading as research suggesting that a proportion of members of the public may have general views that, in some circumstances, some women may bear some responsibility for bringing a sexual assault on themselves by their dress or their behaviour.

I don't know the detail of the raw data that supports those general assertions. I do know that it is too large a leap to suggest general views directly transfer to the jury members considering the evidence on the specific case unfolding before them.

I have watched enough juries to be confident that, on the whole, they take their responsibilities very seriously and pay close attention to the evidence, the speeches and the instructions of the judge. Jury selection is a lottery, but most defence advocates I know prefer to see a majority of women when the numbers are drawn. It does not suit the ideological orthodoxy that maybe juries are pretty effective in their collective understanding of human behaviour.

The new attempt to define "consent" by a woman is for the purposes of drawing up a new Act of the Scottish Parliament. In reality, most of the propositions put out for consultation are already well established as part of the common law development of the law on rape that evolved in the 20th century.

Any scenario where the complainer was unconscious or asleep, consented to sex under threat of violence or was held captive or deceived about what is happening have all been long accepted as criminal acts and have secured convictions. It has also been long established that any attempt to overcome the will of a complainer by deliberately getting them drunk or drugged is an offence.

The suggestion in the list of proposed definitions of lack of consent is "permission is not given when a person has taken too much alcohol or drugs to be capable of consenting, unless permission was given earlier". I can hear it now: "Hello. It's my intention to allow you to shag me in four hours' time, but in between now and then I intend to drink myself senseless. So keep my consent in mind. You would like it in writing? Certainly sir…"

To be blunt the legal issue is unlikely to be clarified for the sweaty masses in nightclubs at 3am. Up to now, it has been a requirement for a man to establish his prospective sexual partner is consenting to their tryst. The proposal introduces an additional responsibility for him to assess whether she has taken too much alcohol or drugs. But the reality is he may just have been taking some drugs or alcohol himself. The law is going to ask a man whose judgment is as likely to be impaired as the woman he fancies to make an objective and accurate assessment of how much drink she has taken. Moreover, he will have to make that judgment in circumstances where the female involved has failed to make such a competent judgment for herself. This is to cover the situation where the female "has taken too much alcohol or drugs". That is, she has voluntarily taken them.

It is an unhappy reality that, for some women, the aim of an evening out is precisely to take "too much". That does not mean they should be raped. That is clear. No-one should run the risk of being sexually assaulted while they are unable to give consent. But it's worrying the pursuit of an increase in rape convictions appears to rely on a denial of the reality that drunk people do things they later regret or can't believe they did.

There is something deeply suspect in the notion that if a woman and a man meet in a club and both get drunk and end up having sex with each other then the woman will be deemed not to be responsible in any way if she regrets it later but the man will continue to be held completely responsible. It does not seem fair for two equal participants to have entirely different legal liability.

I cannot imagine many other areas of Scottish life where it would be accepted that women should be defined as having a reduced legal capacity. This proposal seems to be a muddle of a long-obsolete view that women are frailer creatures than men with an overtly ideological view women are never wrong. It is a pernicious combination few in political life are brave enough to challenge.

It is appears to me there has been a paradoxical effect of the transformation in approaches to rape investigation and prosecution throughout the UK since the notorious Thames Valley Police documentaries of the 1970s. The scepticism and hostility to women who alleged they had been raped was so extreme and unacceptable it led to the instruction all complainers have to be believed and assured they are being believed.

The police report is sent to the prosecuting authority, the Crown Office in Scotland. The complainer will be precognosed (interviewed) as part of the preparation of the case and problems of lack of evidence or inconsistencies may be explored with them, but still within the assumption that the complainer must be believed and reassured the matter is being taken seriously. The assumption at the Crown Office is that rape allegations will be prosecuted where possible.

As a result, the first time the complainer's account of events including her own part in them will be directly challenged is in the witness box. I've seen how shocking and brutal an experience that can be to complainers.

I'm concerned a political drive to improve the rape conviction statistics won't serve the interests of women, men or justice.

• "Graham Greig" works in the justice sector.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 January 2008 6:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Jeremy,

14/01/2008 01:14:33
Is the word "pissed" acceptable for use in a national newspaper?
2

Christopher Hobe Morrison,

Pine Bush, Ulster County, NY, USA 14/01/2008 01:33:29
Graham Greig is comparing apples to oranges. People who become drunk or otherwise intoxicated can't use their intoxication to excuse their own behaviour. Examples he gives are a drunken person breaking someone's jaw or getting into an auto accident. Then he compares this to a woman who gets drunk and then is assaulted by someone else. Is a woman expected to remain sober at all times because someone might think her state of drunkenness means she is available for whatever sort of sex he cares to indulge in with her, maybe including a beating on the side?

Clearly the person who is saying women have a reduced legal capacity is Greig, and the standard he is arguing for is that of the government of Saudi Arabia, which sentenced a rape victim to lashes because her being with someone of the opposite sex she wasn't related to apparently made her fair game to a group of men who wanted to engage in a gang rape.

I am not arguing that if a man and woman are both intoxicated the man should be regarded as responsible and the woman not. What I am arguing is that the standard of reasonableness should be equal for both, whether by available evidence the activity was forced either physically or otherwise or consensual.
3

I'mallymax,

Orwellian nightmare, the english (hand) crown offi 14/01/2008 01:51:19
I whole-heartedly agree with Graham Gieg. The Law Commission's recommendations, (defining consent), are far too skewed to promote higher rape convictions. I feel the Law Commission have been bullied by the harmman's, the angiolini's, and the baroness-scotland's to get the conviction rates up.

I don't think this is the right way to approach such an important debate/discussion area of Scottish Law/society. They've began their efforts by looking at the effect, not the cause. I cetrtainly would not endorse this Law Commission's recommendations, nor agree with their findings. They said,

"It may be that the jury bring in their own ideas about consent, so what we have done here is to bring in a detailed model of consent. We hope that by offering a legal definition of consent, it may help to change social attitudes towards it ."

Seems to me 'it may be the jury bring in their own ideas about consent', correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that what jury are supposed to do? If we let the 'elites' like angiolini et al make our laws then we definately will have 1000, (and more), rapists in Scotland every year. And we will definately be the rape capitol of the world.

I find the way this Law Commission has performed has been incumbent of Bliarite attitudes. Reduced legal capacity for women, for the sake of presumed innocence of men. In-deed, they are all chosen from Bliarite quangos. Therefore, I shouldn't expect anything less from a New Labour Law Commission. Flawed, skewed, and unrepresentable of Scottish people and society. More New Labour rules just for the sake of more quangos/recommendations.

Getting back to the recommendations, 10 years for telling a dirty joke? Am I allowed to say F&*ck Me!

To conclude, introducing 7 new definitions of consent only leads to a position where the defendant HAS to prove innocence. This is fundamentally flawed, even to a numbskull like me. It's flawed, unethical, and leads to more lawyer/court bantering and confusion.

Law Co
4

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 14/01/2008 03:23:53
Rapists have had it to easy for a long time.

Tme for a change, ....................
5

donald,

glasgow 14/01/2008 07:42:43
Labour is innocent because they were drunk with power m'lud.
6

an interested party,

14/01/2008 07:45:07
presumed non-consent this time
7

uncle bulgaria,

14/01/2008 08:11:52
#1 - yes it is.

Its use is neither gratuitous nor offensive.

It gilds his point by offering the subtle prod that going out and getting "pissed" is something almost everyone does.

Using drunk or inebriated would be too judgemental.

Anyway surely your not offended by the magnificent word that is 'pissed'?

Mind you 'pished' would have been better.
8

Yane,

14/01/2008 08:12:26
"Graham Greig works in the justice sector" — as what?
9

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 14/01/2008 09:13:19
Hello Christopher,

My dear fellow, you're the one comparing apples and oranges AND contradicting yourself in the process.

You open by denying the prime premise the author stresses:

that men and women, both inebriated, MUST be held legally accountable for their actions, REGARDLESS of what those actions are.

You close by AGREEING with his stressed premise.

Further, you deny the wording of the newly proposed amendments to the Scottish Rape Laws; towit, that women are IN FACT presented with ZERO LEGAL CULPABILITY in consentual sexual encounters, BECAUSE THEY ARE DRUNK.

The man on the other hand in such a consentual encounter, also inebriated, IS HELD LEGALLY CULPABLE by the courts.

Remind me again how this jibes with Equality Under the Law?

Both the man and the woman are drunk (or stoned), BOTH are 'swapping spit' in the pub and decide to get even friendlier in a more private setting.

They have sex and all is well in 'Babylon'.

She wakes up and at some later point, decides AFTER the fact and now sober, that she really didn't want to have sex with the fellow (for whatever reasons).

Were the new amendment to the Scottish Rape Laws to be enacted, we would end up with a situation like this:

Sex took place after the woman willingly consented to have sex while she was inebriated and the man consented to sex while he was inebriated. No violence took place, the man did NOT force the woman to have sex with him, and she willingly engaged in sex.

The rape laws and the courts would DISCOUNT the woman being drunk, but hold the man RESPONSIBLE REGARDLESS that he was drunk.

Logically, if the woman is held UNABLE to give INFORMED CONSENT to having sex because she is drunk, then the man CANNOT be held liable for the same reason: he was UNABLE to accept INFORMED CONSENT because he was drunk.

In short, neither knew what they were doing intellectually (though physically they did), but if the new amendments go through, ONLY THE MAN will be held A
10

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 14/01/2008 09:14:15
post to Christopher cont.

In short, neither knew what they were doing intellectually (though physically they did), but if the new amendments go through, ONLY THE MAN will be held ACCOUNTABLE, despite being just as drunk (stoned) as the woman.

Again, remind me what happens to Equality Under the Law in this real world and normal above scenario.

Both people involved had the mental wherewithal to understand they needed to pay their bar tabs (if they hadn't already), leave the pub together, travel by some form of transport to either his or her flat (or motel room and fill out paperwork during check in if a motel), and then the rest follows.

Through all of this, ONLY THE MAN is HELD LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE.

Surely you cannot willingly accept such inequity under the law?

Going down this road will only create a seriously permanent rift between men and women, while at the same time, undermining the entire social contract which emanates from the Rule of Law, which is the bedrock of Western Society.

These amendments MUST be rejected for the foul and devastating effect they would have on all in Scottish society.

Cheers from the Rockies
11

Allan(handofgod137),

14/01/2008 10:21:47
A sensible well written artical, this means that the numpties in the diddy parly will ignore it.
12

Gina Gibson,

Wales 14/01/2008 11:57:45
I notice all the people who agree with this writer are men! What are they suggesting next? Will a person be held responsible for being mugged if they go out using a pair of crutches? They are, after all, letting potential muggers know they are unable to fend for themselves!! Anybody who takes advantage of somebody who is drunk, disabled, or disadvantaged is a low life and should be treated by the courts as such.
13

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

14/01/2008 12:12:04
13....This amendment to the law even scares me...the intention is to make it easier to send down the guilty, but it could also make it easier to sentence innocent men...drunk men who have been given consent to indulge in sexual intercourse with a drunk woman...she may not remember this consent the next day and he could be facing a rape charge...on the other hand there will be plenty that state they were given consent...and gone ahead and raped a woman..and how on earth is she going to prove that she did not?

It is a sorry situation altogether and yes you are right...in court it will be the usual tarred as a drunken harlot with your knickers held up in court...which is why many women do not report rape...the ordeal is too harrowing.
14

Neil,

Glasgow 14/01/2008 13:41:56
If the guy was also drunk at the time does that mean that the girl is guilty of raping him? Or were they both raped by Scottish & Newcastle Breweries Ltd?
15

,

14/01/2008 20:56:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 14/01/2008 22:14:01
Hello Gina,

My dear deluded woman, the arguments being made on this thread AGAINST the proposed amendments have NOTHING whatsoever to do with being male: they have EVERYTHING with which to do with wanting Equity Under the Law to be the Guiding Light in the Rule of Law.

The necessary implication of your misapplied analogy is that only some people, according to gender in fact, are NOT to be held responsible for their actions, while others of a different gender ARE to be held responsible for the self same actions (getting drunk/stoned).

Hasn't the mantra of the Committed Women's Rights Proponents been EQUITY UNDER THE LAW?

Now you're asking for Special Rights and Elitist Class Status, based on your gender.

What you are asking for will quite literally cripple Scottish Society and Culture, and create and atmosphere of hatred, resentment, distrust, and antipathy, toward women, the justice system, the courts, the police, and government in general.

Should you wish to destroy the Rule of Law, go right ahead and push for the amendment to the Rape Laws.

Cheers from the Rockies
17

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

14/01/2008 23:30:26
17...If that were a real scenario then yes...you would be a filthy rapist...."Made love"!!!!...gies peace..you dont rape somebody one minute and then 'make love' the next...

19...Wind yer neck in..that scenario in paragraph 5 already exists.
18

BK,

Cyberspace 14/01/2008 23:34:41
What if a woman takes advantage of a drunk man and has her wicked way with him? In today's ladette culture, it is not unheard of. Will this woman be prosecuted for rape, just as if the sexes had been reversed? I think not. That is a basic unfairness of this proposal.
19

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

14/01/2008 23:52:43
21....Should that scenario ever reach court then it would be a gruelling experience for the man..."I put it to you that you were willing and indeed sir, able, to participate in this so called 'rape'..is it not the case that you sustained an erection for the duration of this so called 'rape' and indeed ejaculated as a consequence?"..."Is this, or is it not, your condom containing your semen Mr Smith?"..."Now to the matter of the underwear that you were wearing on the night of the alleged assault (holds up a leopard print thong)..."Is this not your phone number scribbled in your handwriting across the front?...I put it to you sir that you were not 'intoxicated' as you claim, but sober enough to write your phone number on your own underwear which you then freely gave to the accused"

blah blah blah
20

BK,

Cyberspace 15/01/2008 00:05:03
What about two gays (or lesbians) who get drunk, will they be prosecuted for raping each other?
21

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 15/01/2008 00:13:26
Seems to me that Horrible Cankers has never been able to hold down a relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Or any sex.

There again, the posting name says it all.
22

Jock Tamson,

Celle 15/01/2008 00:18:17
1-2, sqirt in a loving relationship sounds fair game to me. I woke up one morning and my recent bride was playing with a certain part of my body. Did I complain to the authorities?
23

I'mallymax,

Orwellian nightmare; westminster Lib,Lab,Tory pact 15/01/2008 01:40:51
If I may post just another time on this subject. Please take at this article in 'The Scotsman' from last October. I think it covers a lot of the opinions from the posters.
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/comment/Rape-statistics-viewed-through-a.2820613.jp
Thank you.
24

Gina Gibson,

Wales 15/01/2008 10:42:54
#19 Neanderthal 75.......your name says it all!
25

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

15/01/2008 11:28:46
24....Jocky darling...am I to take it you want your thong back?
26

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 16/01/2008 00:02:46
Hello again Gina,

RE your 27:

Ah yes, you can't make an intelligent argument, refute the logic, the legal specifics, nor the particulars of my arguments, so all you can do is to resort to an elementary school level and stick your tongue out at me.

Well and truly pitiful and worst of all, you do yourself, the issue, and Scottish Society, a grave disservice.

Lastly, you also illustrate quite clearly, your abject ignorance concerning my species and the impact we had on yours.

Neanderthals were the first humans to recognize the existence of the soul, the existence of an afterlife, and illustrated that the lives of their loved ones were of greater value than material objects.

You'd know that if you'd ever bothered to take an anthropology class, or read any reliable texts about Shanidar, or even taken a Ryan Air flight to the Düsseldorf area, for a visit to Mettman and the Neanderthal Museum.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be utterly ecstatic.

Cheers from the Rockies
27

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

16/01/2008 00:08:54
Dear Neanderthals you are a complete and utter arrogant blowhard..your..species..dreamed up the existence of the soul, and the existence of an afterlife cos they were too thick to comprehend that when you snuffed it...you simply snuffed it...in their arrogance they could not perceive it possible that human life was here today and gone tomorrow..so they invented an after life to appease the ego...a god who they must kow tow to cos he is the one who makes the big boom boom in the sky and when he cries..why..look..flowers and veg spring up in the wake of his tears....dreams my dear chap...fear and dreams..fantasy and delusion....religion...brain death..the death of humanity...

If arrogance is bliss...you are about to expire in ecstasy...
28

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

16/01/2008 00:09:51
Oh aye...cheers from the Shebeen...
29

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 18/01/2008 19:44:53
Hello Cankers,

Ah yes, the ever popular response of the mindless: avoid facts, data, real world logic, and common sense; all in favor of your vacuous drivel.

Keep avoiding facts Cankers, I'm sure you'll be more than happy to remain in the Land of Denial.

Cheers from the Rockies

 

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