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Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish cities



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Published Date: 09 October 2008
SECRET talks are under way to bring Islamic sharia law courts to Scotland, The Scotsman has learned.
Qamar Bhatti, director of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT), which runs the courts, admitted discussions were taking place with lawyers and Muslim community groups in Scotland.

The group is believed to be aiming to set up courts in Edinburgh a
nd Glasgow.

In September it emerged that five sharia courts, ruling on civil cases from divorce to domestic violence and financial disputes, had been operating for more than a year in London, Birmingham, Bradford, Manchester and at MAT headquarters in Nuneaton, Warwickshire.

The courts have legal powers, with their decisions enforceable through the county courts or high courts.

However, concerns have been raised about the establishment of a "dual legal system".

Women's domestic violence groups have also voiced fears, saying traditional sharia law arbitration is "dangerous and inappropriate" in cases of abuse.

Last night Bill Aitken, the Scottish Tory justice spokesman, said: "Informal private arrangements between individual members of the Muslim community are one thing, but in criminal matters Scottish courts must have total jurisdiction. "Matters of divorce and domestic violence require to be determined by conventional courts. We cannot have private arrangements when human rights are an issue."

The move to establish sharia courts has sharply divided opinion among Scotland's Muslims.

Some defend the right of the Muslim community to rule on its own affairs. But others say MAT has not consulted them and there is no demand for sharia courts.

Aamer Anwar, a Glasgow-based civil rights lawyer, said: "Those using sharia law are fully entitled to religious freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with criminal law. Because it happens to be Islamic , people jump to the conclusion it is barbaric.

"It is down to the community to decide for itself."

Commenting on criticisms over domestic violence, he said: "The woman has full entitlement to go before any court or to the police. With sharia law, when domestic violence is raised it always runs into a fanfare of hysteria."

Noman Tahir, of the Scottish-Islamic Foundation, said there was no groundswell of support for sharia courts in Scotland.

"Currently, Scottish Muslims resolve civil matters through the courts or voluntary third-party arbitration with Islamic scholars and imams," he said. "This has worked well for many years and we are not aware of any unhappiness with these arrangements or calls for change."

A spokeswoman for Shakti Women's Aid, which supports black minority ethnic women, said it was not in favour of the courts in Scotland.

"Cases of domestic abuse and divorce should be heard within the Scottish judicial system," she said. "We fear that many female victims of domestic abuse may be pressurised by their families and partners to accept the rulings of the sharia court as final and prevent them from seeking legal assistance from the Scottish court system, which might force them to continue living within abusive relationships."

John Scott, a human rights lawyer, said: "There is a place for sharia law, but we need to be careful those aspects unfavourable to women are not allowed to dominate.

"I have less concern about fears over a dual legal system than aspects which are inconsistent in practice with equality issues. But such courts cannot be set up unsupervised and they would need to be monitored."

In February the Archbishop of Canterbury caused a furore when he commented that it "seems unavoidable" that parts of Islamic sharia law would be adopted in the UK if social cohesion was to be maintained.

Panels of scholars with power to settle disputes

What is sharia?

Sharia law is Islam's legal system, derived from the Koran and from fatwas – the rulings of Islamic scholars. It covers every aspect of a Muslim's life and day-to-day conduct.

What do sharia courts deal with?

A range of issues including marriage, divorce, family and financial disputes.

Where and when do they meet?

They have been set up in mosques, Islamic centres and converted premises such as shops. Most meet weekly. Advice on some issues can also be obtained online.

How are decisions made?

Around three to six scholars and imams collectively make decisions.

Islamic jurists issue guidance and rulings. Guidance which is considered a formal legal ruling is called a fatwa.

How much does it cost a complainant?

Costs range from £150-£250

Is there a right of appeal?

Yes – you can appeal to another sharia court or apply for a special hearing.

Why do some women have concerns about these courts?

Some Muslim women say they are concerned about the interpretation of disputes because of the patriarchal nature of their culture.

Have sharia courts been established in other western countries?

Attempts to set up sharia courts in Canada in 2005 were abandoned after protests.





The full article contains 809 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 October 2008 9:24 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

truthsleuth,

09/10/2008 01:07:58
10 green bottles standing on the wall.....


Soon They WILL take over.
2

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 01:18:05
Why should Scotland have TWO systems of law when one has endured and worked for centuries.

The Muslims want things their way and their way ONLY.

These Sharia courts of law are alien to the Scottish way of life and hopefully will NEVER be present in Scotland.

Ontario has banned them from our province to an overwhelming majority because two systems of dealing with legal matters is too complicated and contradicts our heritage and history.

DON'T LET THE MUSLIMS TRY TO TAKE OVER!
3

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 09/10/2008 02:48:13
So let me get this straight: the SNP spurns London while embracing Mecca.

What am I missing?
4

Bend Over,

09/10/2008 02:49:18
Say goodbye to Great Britain, we will only get it back with a fight.
5

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 09/10/2008 02:54:20
You still don't get it Scotland! Where ever they go, their one mission is to TAKE OVER.Conspiracy theory? Bangladeshi immigrants in battles in India.Muslim Chinese extremists in Xinjiang China demanding to cecede from China.Problems in Italy,Germany,France, the UK.It is 'colonization' by stealth rather than out and out invasion. Wakey, wakey.
6

Ron Reale,

Fort Lauderdale, FL 09/10/2008 02:54:33
Why do people so blithly accept that Muslims have the right to their own set of laws in someone elses country?
There are plenty of muslim countries they can go to. If they moved to Britain or Scotland to become citizens of those fine Democrocies, they are welcome to assimilate.
If they came to start their own country inside a free country, that is a silent declaration of war that will only lead to instability and a lack of confidence in the Home Country.
The Austalian Prime Minister, John Howard made a brilliant speech recently, (Oct. 2007). You people should pay attention:
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims wh
7

Ron Reale,

Fort Lauderdale, FL 09/10/2008 02:56:34
(Continued)Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia " "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of
8

Ron Reale,

09/10/2008 02:59:28
(Continued 2)
"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

God I love that every time I read it!

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American and other free citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.
Ron Reale
realetybytes@yahoo.com
realetybytes.townhall.com

9

W Smith,

Middle East 09/10/2008 03:35:23
Typical SNP.

After mixing with known Jihadists at Stop The War Coalition meetings Salmond's silence can only be interpreted one way.

After lecturing us on the 'Butchers Apron', the tyranny of English rule, etc, there is an eerie silence from the SNP supporters over this.

BTW
Any action on Hanif yet?
10

Proud to have Scots blood,

New York, N.Y. 09/10/2008 05:00:45
I remember John Howard's speech. It was on target.
I met an Egyptian woman in the late 80's who was a physician and Coptic. During our conversation she told me that our country, the United States should d all in its power to keep Muslims out. She told me they want to turn the world Muslim and they despise anyone who is not Muslim. She continued that they want to destroy America. It was uncomprehensible
to me. Then along came the Cole, '93 dynamiting of
WTC garage, attempts to blow up a Brooklyn subway station, etc., and the destruction of the Twin Towers wherein ordinary people & those who went to help them were slaughtered. I have no doubts that more acts
of terrorism are on the way. We need more John Howards.
11

why can't I use my own name???,

musselburgh 09/10/2008 06:34:04
'Qamar Bhatti, director of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT), which runs the courts, admitted discussions were taking place with lawyers and Muslim community groups in Scotland.'

They can have their secret little talks! That slippery eel won't get past the Judiciary, and the Exec better not go soft on it, either! Still, when it gets knocked back, they will operate their 'courts' clandestinely. In fact, don't they do this already??
12

Guga II,

Rockall 09/10/2008 06:37:13
If these people want to be ruled by Sharia law, then I strongly suggest that they move to a country that operates under that system.

Scottish law does, and should continue, to apply to everyone living in Scotland. There is no room for differing legal systems based on particular religions.

Taken to its logical and farcical conclusion, if a group of people living in Scotland are immigrants from Haiti, does that mean they have the right to set up a legal system based on voodoo beliefs?

If the SNP, or any political party, condones such extra-territorial legal jurisdiction for immigrants living in Scotland, they will end up alienating the Scottish people.

The old adage about when you live in Rome, do as the Romans do, applies to the legal system. If I live in Saudi Arabia, I have no alternative but to accept their legal system. They will not make any allowances for me being a foreigner in their country; nor should they. The same should apply for any foreigners, or foreign immigrants living in Scotland. They should accept that they have to comply with Scottish law. If they don't like it, no-one is stopping them from leaving.
13

Lanna,

09/10/2008 06:41:56
#12 Guga,
well said.

This makes for an interesting read: 'why Sharia law must be opposed':
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html
14

JaE_in_Oz,

Oz 09/10/2008 07:06:53
Ron Reale #6,7,8 does not note that the Howard government was defeated shortly after with Howard himself losing his seat. Costello is still sulking on the back benches.
The view on Sharia law is probably reasonably representative mainly because Australia is steadily becoming more secular with less and less church going. A referendum on adding a preamble to the constitution calling us something like "one nation under God" was heavily defeated.
The masses are slowly becoming less opiated!
15

John S,

09/10/2008 07:13:35
#12 Guga II, I agree when you wrote if the SNP, or any political party, condones such extra-territorial legal jurisdiction for immigrants living in Scotland, they will end up alienating the Scottish people.

This was the sensible decision by Ontario's premier, Dalton McGuinty,who said Ontario will reject the use of Shariah law and will move to prohibit all religious-based tribunals to settle family disputes such as divorce.
He ruled against the move in September 2005, saying there should be "one law for all Ontarians".He was also forced to ban other religions which had been using faith-based tribunals. September 11, 2005
16

fresian,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 07:22:09
If this goes through, then this country really is F**ked. If muslims want to live here, then fine. However, they do so under our rules and standards. I lved in Dubai, which is one of the more liberal islamic states. I did, however, accept that it was not my country and that I had to abide by their law.

If we allow this, then we are on the slippery slope towards such pleasantries as women being stoned or burned for adultery. And before all the PC bleeding heart liberal lentil munchers accuse me of scaremongering, this does still happen, albeit unofficially, in Palestine and very recently in the UAE. The danger is that those who perpitrate this type of crime/punishment, do so in the name of Islam, and none of our politicians or judges will have the bottle to do anything about it.

I am in no way racist, however, this is Britain, so either put up or ship out.
17

donald,

glasgow 09/10/2008 07:35:49
Sharia. I once had a mother in law called Sharia.
18

Guga II,

Rockall 09/10/2008 07:43:50
#17 Donald.

Did you feel like stoning her?

19

Guga II,

Rockall 09/10/2008 07:44:22
#13 Lanna.

Thanks for the link.
20

,

09/10/2008 07:51:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

Dave,

Isle of Barra 09/10/2008 07:54:23
Why the "secret talks"? Why not "open talks"? Something to hide perhaps? Like a massive public backlash and an ousting of the SNP?
22

eric,

lothian 09/10/2008 08:09:32
Great Britain is a figment of imagination.
23

The_Reiver,

09/10/2008 08:11:44
GREAT!

Soon we will all be able to enjoy the public beheading of Salmond at Hampden Park.
24

Dave,

Isle of Barra 09/10/2008 08:14:34
eric

Whose imagination tho?
25

danielrober,

09/10/2008 08:15:26
I am a fan of free trade in the movement of goods, services and people. It makes the world a richer place. If a small percentage of the Islamic community want to live under these laws instead of current secular laws, then there is very little Scotland/UK can do. Adherence to the law is a private action backed up by occasional state enforcement.

Yet to balance out such new developments maybe we need a clause in our immigration policy, following the German model of Guest Workers. I'm not a fan of this system but it could mean people can work, live, own property and pay taxes, with out full compliance with UK law, such as divorce (outside of criminal actions of course). Yet in return there would be no right to vote. You can not vote in a country to decide the law makers and then selectively chose to ignore certain rules.

So maybe the solution here is the German method of guess workers, were these super expats can enjoy UK benefits, without voting on laws they chose not to follow. Besides I'm certain not everyone who comes here for work is looking to be a Scot or a Brit. Some are however and can enjoy full voting rights, to decide the law makers that they follow.

Maybe that's a fair compromise.
26

why can't I use my own name???,

musselburgh 09/10/2008 08:16:13
A large one to the fella who leaked this, or to the journo who stumbled across it.'Secret talks', eh?
27

carrottop,

09/10/2008 08:17:14
Go and live in a country that supports Sharia law, yet another example of a people who do not want to be Scottish yet are set on living here with their own agenda.
Any politician seen to be assisting the implementation of Sharia law should be sent packing at the ballot box, even the mentally retarded Labour voters can surely see through all this political posturing.
28

paulr,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:20:27
"Some defend the right of the Muslim community to rule on its own affairs"
These people come to live here or are even born here, they claim to be british or Scottish, if that is the case then they abide by Scottish Law, not some barbaric muslim kangaroo court system.
If they want to be controlled by sharia law then let them go to iran, or some other backward wilderness which has been socially destroyed by a so called islamic revolution.
WE DO NOT WANT YOUR sharia RUBBISH HERE.
29

Boy Wonder,

09/10/2008 08:20:59
Guga got it right. If the Muslims don't like our legal system ... then bu66er off to an Islamic country.

NO to two legal systems!!!
30

sam the god,

09/10/2008 08:21:07
bring back maggie
31

Douglas,

Bathgate 09/10/2008 08:33:14
John Scott, a human rights lawyer, said: "There is a place for sharia law,......... That would be in a country where an Islamic way of life is the norm.
Away with this positive discrimination!
32

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:47:18
What is all the fuss about? We are only talking about the equivalent of a Citizens Advice Bureau for Muslims.
33

nuffnuff,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 08:49:47
It's half-assed ideas like this that causes racial tension and divide.

34

Geedoc,

Fife 09/10/2008 09:07:31
The report tells us the "some defend the right of the Muslim community to rule on its own affairs". It would be interesting to know who the some are,and if they would defend this principle for,say,the communities of Mull,Fife or even Parkhead and Ibrox. Fairs fair after all.
35

danielrober,

09/10/2008 09:09:30
As world trade increases people are going to be spending ever greater amounts of time outside their original country (we Brits and Scots work all over the world). To expect everyone to have voting rights in a community that they may only be living in for ten years would seems to be unfair and is not something Brit/Scot expats enjoy.

But maybe 'meetings' could settle disputes in the UK between business people from Islamic countries XYZ, without a redress to the UK system. But these same business people can not be expected to have voting rights for law makers, who establish laws they do not follow.

This is the West Lothian question on steroids. Yet it is an issue that needs to be settled in the present for the future. Its also a question that can be addressed positively with many sides winning through compromise.

Maybe 'super expat' status is what is needed here. After all a percentage of their tax might be sent back as remittance to their home countries. I'm sure some countries would greatly appreciate the income. On the UK side maybe a slight reduction is taxes say a lesser NI contribution.
36

hertscot,

09/10/2008 09:16:26
#30

Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is that bad.

Completeley agree with Guga.

ONE Country, ONE People, ONE Law!!
37

scottish person,

paisley 09/10/2008 09:17:25
I dont need to add anything, Ron Reale said all that is required.
Take note Muslims!
38

steve52,

Kinfauns 09/10/2008 09:19:13
Dave from Barra. Are you typical of Labour supporters in that you cant read? No where in the article are the SNP mentioned.

One law in Scotland is enough and if these persons dont like it then they can move out double quick. They are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites....just ask them if the have TV, Radio, if they drink or sell drink etc. all things they should not have or do.

Send the lot of them to Afghanistan where they can live as they please.
39

hertscot,

09/10/2008 09:19:50
PROTEST AND SURVIVE!
40

Calvinist,

09/10/2008 09:21:40
This is entirely consistent with what one would expect from this authoritarian, reactionary government and the social conservatism that pervades its thinking. It also explains Salmond’s recent proposed dalliance with Qatar. This man will do anything to get votes and retain power. Get rid of him before he completely wreaks Scotland.
41

Richard Lionheart,

09/10/2008 09:21:58
Aamer Anwar, a Glasgow-based civil rights lawyer, said: "Those using sharia law are fully entitled to religious freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with criminal law. Because it happens to be Islamic , people jump to the conclusion it is barbaric.

"It is down to the community to decide for itself."


Mr Anwar raises an interesting point. Is it down to the community to decide for itself? If every “community” in Scotland was to exercise this same right under the guise of equality, would it not undermine the law of the land where, we all live together?

If Mr Anwar is correct then the next question would be whither the community has the right to self determination. Where do these rights to “decide for themselves” stop?

This also raises the further question of the Examples set across the World by the Islamic family, and the rights given by the Islamic family to other groups for their communities to decide for themselves. Somehow the demands made by the Islamic community and the application where there is the ability to grant appear to be somewhat at odds.

42

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 09:31:26
What is being proposed is more like an extension of Scots law to voluntary contracts. I agree with SM that it is necessary to define "voluntary" - and I would add to do so under Scots law.

I wonder if some of the correspondents above would write in the same tone if it were a question of defending the rights of Christians in Saudi.
43

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:35:19
this would be a good time to start saving for your prayer mats! start learning your "Shahada"' will be handy to find out were Mecca is! atheists start plans to emigrate, other believers Christian /Jews as long as you accept the superiority of Islam and pay the special tax you will be allowed to live as a good second class "Dhimmi" (something short of human)any other faith run! Burka`s for all girls! Christians girls as well for not to offend the Muslim minority, the future isn't bright, it isn't orange..... its Islamic! Forward to Eurabia!
44

Venachar,

09/10/2008 09:38:39
This country is going down the tubes, rapidly.

I should have emigrated to Australia 30 years ago when I had the opportunity. Then I would not have work for thirty years, raise my kids, send them to Uni, save up for my pension. Only to have my pension funds stolen by Brown, then the value destroyed by Browns policies, the country handed over to a bunch of people who have no interest or commitment to this country because Tony Blair says we must be "Multicultural". I can't even complain about this because legislation is there which can be used to make any criticism sound racist.

Labour wonder why people are going off them at a vast rate of knot's. Unlike most people I've worked and lived in Islamic Societies for quite a lot of my working life and have always abided by that particular societies rules. I do fundamentally object when my own society is being distorted to suit the hairy fairy policies of a bunch of people who's policies appear to be routed in the flower power era of the sixties, peace and love man! These same people send our young men and women out to "Islamic" countries to bring democracy and get killed, yet at the same time hand over their homeland to a bunch of religous fanatics!

Aamer Anwar is incorrect, it is not up to "the community" to chose which "law" to follow. Everyone should follow the law of the land irrespective of their religion. Yet again Mr Anwar shows his true agenda. If Mr Anwar dislikes our society so much he should remove himself to a place more to his liking. Don't think he will somehow because if he did he would probably find himself inside a prison if he was lucky or in some unmarked grave pdq.


45

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 09:39:28
Richard Lionheart,

Don't you think that communities and families don't already decide for themselves? Many 'organised' groups of people already decide things for themselves, and are still ultimately answerable to the established courts.

For example I was at a 'Society' meeting only last week where the Treasurer was technically 'breaking the law' in the way he was paying accounts due. Yet we didn't bother the courts - the problem was sorted internally, in other words 'we decided for ourselves'. (For the record the Treasurer was just being a bit cavalier, and to protect himself he needed to operate by the law - he just needed a wake up call).

As far as I can see - that is exactly the kind of thing the so called 'Sharia courts' are doing.

We also have voluntary arbitration groups helping solve disputes between neighbors without bothering the courts - where's the problem? As with 'Sharia courts' if the participants are unhappy then they still have recourse to a lawyer and sheriff.



Don't forget that there are also huge swathes of this country where there is effectively NO law, I'm sure folk in that predicament would love the ability to 'decide for themselves'.
46

Finnzz,

09/10/2008 09:41:07
The ignorance shown by most posters on here is breathtaking.

There is only one system of Law recognised in Scotland.

If Muslims wish to be controlled by their own religeous rules and regulations and it does not conflict with Scots Law, then let them at it.

Sharia Law has the same legal standing as the local rules at your golf club.
47

Lastsocialist,

Europe 09/10/2008 09:42:54
Whatever next, a group of wifebeaters or paedophiles demanding exemption from Scottish criminal law because it offends against their community's interests? Sharia has no place in Scotland. The stupidity of opportunist politicians like Salmond over issues relating to multiculturalism beggars belief. We cannot allow fundamentalist bigots to destroy our free society just because we are frightened that they will suicide bomb our cities. The liberal cowards can all go to Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia where they can enjoy the wonderful benefits of a barbaric, medieval society that craps on gays, Jews, women and anybody who isn't a Salafist fanatic.
48

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 09:47:44
Finnzz,

At last some reason!!

49

thistle do,

here n'there 09/10/2008 09:49:46
So much for inclusion then. This will not help racial and social integration one bit. It gives fuel to the right wing BNP etc. The Muslins must compromise their ways if the expect the rest of the country to accommodate them.

Could we see separate courts for catholics or perhaps gaels or even folkids with blue eyes!


50

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 09:54:19
Sharia law is innately superior to man made law for the simple reason that it is the Law of Allah. Shariah courts in Scotland will be good for Scotland; native Scots will be able to see the justice, fairness and superiority of Islam and join us through choice.

Through Alex Salmond's enlightened guidance this country will be a beacon to the world of coexistence and righteous change; it has already begun with the inclusion of members of the Ummah in government, the start of Muslim schools and finance from our brothers in Qatar.

Well done Scotland in showing inclusivity.
51

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 09:56:04
50 Vincent-W,

At last some reason!

Yes Islamic! the Muslims have word for such people
useful idiots!
52

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 09/10/2008 09:57:53
There's only one law in Scotland, Scots Law, not Sharia, not UK, SCOTS LAW and thats the way it should stay simple and uncomplicated
53

common sense voice,

09/10/2008 10:00:14
well this is the price we pay for the love of curry...

I'm glad i'm getting on in life... nearer to 50 than 40!! the world is going to be a strange place in the future.

i thought when u had cancer in the foot they cut your leg off at the knee... send them packing or scare the living sh*t out of them..

u'd better... before it's too late..
54

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 10:02:01
53 oder,

I can't help thinking that sometimes your posts might partially reflect the viewpoint of a xenophobic racist.
55

notime4anovice,

glasgow 09/10/2008 10:03:16
Hopefully Alex Salmond will stop this nonsense. There's no place for sharia in Scotland.
His visit to Qatar was worrying especially with their contempt for human rights.
Anyone who has visited an Islamic country will have seen how non muslims are treated and be disgusted that we pamper to them here in the UK.
56

Zish,

09/10/2008 10:07:41
notime4anovice

Alex Salmond will help this happen. He is already advised by progressive Muslims who want Sharia. Human Rights have been defined by Allah, and that is what Shariah does, apply those rights.
57

HennyP,

09/10/2008 10:09:12
#52
Sharia law is no more "innately superior" than the laws we have at the moment.

If we are going down the "who's got better laws", it might be worth remembering the Ten Commandments from Christianity - of which many are used in our law courts every day.

Scotland is a Christian country.

58

,

09/10/2008 10:09:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/10/2008 10:09:41
#38 "ONE Country, ONE People, ONE Law!!"

That sounds familiar. But wasn't there something about ONE leader as well?
60

Zish,

09/10/2008 10:11:50
Henny P

The ten commandments are actually Jewish Law. They predate Christianity by a long time and were handed by Allah to Mussa (Moses).


61

John S,

09/10/2008 10:13:56
The Canadian Council of Muslim Women (CCMW)
Recommends that family matters are best settled under Canadian and Ontario family law statutes and regulations. Separate arbitration tribunals to settle family matters under Sharia/Muslim family law will ghettoize and further marginalize vulnerable women.
Sharia law is not a homogeneous civil code but rather a very complex system of Muslim jurisprudence interpreted by culturally and ethnically diverse individuals often from a patriarchal perspective. There are no norms or standards for settlements, e.g. amount or length of alimony and support payments, age of male or female children for custody awards. It is precisely the arbitrariness of these awards that will jeopardize the equality rights of Muslim women. CCMW fears that arbitration using Sharia/Muslim family law will continue to be based on a very narrow, conservative interpretation of Islam, which has already had a negative impact on some Canadian Muslim women and Muslim women world-wide.
“We are very concerned that Muslim women will see their equality rights eroded,” said Razia Jaffer, CCMW’s National President. “Canadian women have fought long and hard to win the rights that we now enjoy.”
Toronto, September 15, 2004:http://tinyurl.com/47ndh5
62

Scythia,

Alba 09/10/2008 10:29:17
Salmond is already in the hands of the Mohammidans and his party is introducing Islamic schools, has set up the so-called Scottish islamic Foundation and is a mass-immigration advocate. Any true nationalist should reject his party.

This the next phase in the process of Islamification of Scotland. Christianity and Islam cannot live peacefully side-by-side. The process should be familiar by now.


As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colourful uniqueness:

United States — Muslim 1.0%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1%-2%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply.

France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that off
63

It's me!,

09/10/2008 10:30:52
The Trojan horse has arrived!
64

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 10:32:02
Covert Action,

I would have thought you and oder would revel in such a description! For you and oder being called a racist or xenophobe is in no way pejorative. It is merely an accurate description of your views.

As a contrast, it would appear that if anyone disagrees with your wholesome and friendly world view then they are exhorted to 'go away and expire'.

That's quite an extreme exhortation for someone, like you, with such moderate and reasonable views.
65

JayTee,

Doonthewatter 09/10/2008 10:33:54
Maye I'm being a bit naive: but the report was all about Sharia law COURTS (i.e the administration of justice), not about a separate or parallel set of laws. I agree that Scotland cannot sustain the latter, but can anyone tell me who supervises the Sharia courts? What about its procedures and rules of evidence? Who keeps (and publishes) a record of its proceedings? Are its judges and other other oficers appointed by and responsible to the Scottish legal authorities? Who determines & approves their qualifications? If none of these questions is answered satisfactorily, and the Sharia courts are merely "informal" voluntary hearings, how can they have the "force of law"?
66

boudica,

Glasgow 09/10/2008 10:37:03
If you want to stop Wee Eck from doing this you register your protest with your Local MSP, MP , on the Scottish Ex site ..we cannot allow this to happen we cant be dragged back to the Dark Ages to appease a group that keep changing the goal posts and dont forget the resounding NO that the British people gave the Archbishop of Canterbury when he came out with his thoughts about us accepting Sharia Law in "some form" this action shows the truth of the Natz Party and their Islamic Brethern who can wave Kalashnikofs about and they only get a slap on the wrist ..Now we know the reasons why
67

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 10:37:56
Not pejorative perhaps, but the first port of call when you and your ilk have their "I'd like to teach the world to sing" opinions called into question. Shut down the discussion by deeming your opponent beyond the pale. An old political marxist debating trick effortlessly transposed into the cultural marxism adhered to by the so-called left of today.
68

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/10/2008 10:38:01
#64

Interesting cultural absorption theory. At what percentage do they start singing religious songs at football matches?
69

bluehead,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:38:38
who would ever have believed what is happening in the country,the whole of Britain seems to be swallowed up by foreigners, we have madmen, who should never be allowed to leave their padded cell, running this country,
who are responsible for this appalling situation,
just try going to a foreign person's country and try to apply our laws and you will soon be shown the door,
can anyone explain how such madness has descended on what once was the greatest city in the world.
70

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 09/10/2008 10:41:11
#67

Why should it be any different from the way the Church of Scotland courts operate, or the way Kosher foods are legally authenticated, or even the way the Scottish Football Association can levy fines on clubs and players?
71

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

09/10/2008 10:41:44
Since Salmond has been elected, he has been on massive ego trip. You can imagine what he would have said if the Labour party proposed this. He failed to condemn the SNP member who took his family on a Kalashnikov firing part. Yet when people criticised this approach they were labelled racists by SNP memebrs. Maybe it would be easier for Salmond if we all became Muslims and went around teaching our kids how to play with Kalashnikovs.
72

Zish,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:43:17
Scythia:

I don't know what you are complaining about. The ultimate goal of Islam is to establish Shariah Law all over the world. We do not hide this or attempt this surreptitiously. It is stated clearly in The Qur'an and the Hadiths.

There is no Trojan, or if you are wanting to be accurate, Greek, horse.

There has been no subterfuge. When the UK government invited Muslims here the Qur'an had been around for 1300 years and was clear for anyone to see what Muslims are, what our religion is and how it does it.

In the 19th century, William Muir, an Edinburgh University professor explained it all in detail to the extent that it was he who first coined the phrase 'satanic verses'.

You invited us in. When you did, you invited our religion and Scotland and the UK ceased to be Christian countries and became something else.

If you did not want our religion here, you should not have invited us.
73

invictager,

Kent 09/10/2008 10:46:43
#48
Since when did stoning women to death for adultery or banning them from school or owning a car NOT conflict with Scots law.

Likewise Aamer Anwar, are you claiming the above practies are not barbaric.

Lets never forget he old favourite "when in Rome". It makes a lot of sense.
74

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 10:47:54
Covert Action,

As opposed to the old right wing trick of killing anyone who disagrees with you?

Please tell me what is my ilk? So far your description is miles off the truth, but then precisely defining people by racial or other characteristics is another common fearture of the far right.
75

invictager,

Kent 09/10/2008 10:51:37
#74
Why is it then that when Saudi Arabia and others "invited" skilled westerners to come develop their oil fields they did not "invite" christianity along with them. Or have I missed all the cathedrals in Ryadh.

It seems that only we "infidels" are happy to let others practice their own faith without fear that everyone will suddenly be converted.
76

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 10:54:55
Vincent W

Sure, Stalin never hurt a hair on anyone's head. Pol Pot neither. As for Mao, quite the humanitarian.

As for you, cultural marxist, useful idiot and, with a name like Vincent...
77

Zish,

09/10/2008 10:57:05
When Saudi Arabia invites skilled workers, they are invited as that, guest workers.

The UK invited us as immigrants with the same rights as you.

Saudi operates under Sharia, the UK under man made law. Do not complain when your own man made law gets you in a mess.
78

Brian Ferrari,

09/10/2008 10:58:24
I wonder if Muslims would have any to Jewish courts being set up in Scotland?

Maybe we should have Christian courts too, in fact you'd probably need different courts for each denomination.

What a load of tosh!
79

invictager,

Kent 09/10/2008 11:01:10
#79
Thought you may have a glib answer.

It seems tolerance is a one way street.
80

WL,

livingston 09/10/2008 11:04:48
If muslims want to be tried under sharia laws they should not come to Scotland.
81

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 09/10/2008 11:06:30
And let us not forget that CANADA, in its infinite wisdom, banned these Sharia courts from our country.

They would be a threat to Canadian law as established over the centuries and a threat to peace and good government and the administration of CANADIAN law.
82

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 11:09:50
Covert Action,

You are absolutely right in highlighting the activities of Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. In my view all extremists are prone to making poor quality decisions.

Don't make assumptions, chummy, you'll only make an ass of yourself. Culural marxist - what sort of assumed claptrap is that?

Please tell me what is the problem with a good white Christian name like Vincent. Associations with the name have been in my family for generations and I'm proud of that - but clearly you have an issue. Out with it man.

By the way why don't you post under your real name?
83

Venachar,

09/10/2008 11:13:00
Zish is either a wummer or telling the truth!

In either case both are just as frightening, you make up your own mind.


84

hertscot,

09/10/2008 11:13:08
#79,

"The UK invited us as immigrants with the same rights as you"

That doesn't mean you had to come.

That doesn't mean your special.

That doesn't mean you can ask for the laws to be changed so that they fit in with your religion.

Migration is not a crime, but the onus of conforming is with the migrant, if you do not like the laws of the country, you shouldn't be there.

Irrespective of what Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism want, they should not be allowed to usurp the law of a country for their own gain, greed and vanity.
85

Resolutions,

09/10/2008 11:20:23
Earlier several people brought up that Independence supporters were silent.

Right I am an independence supporter and am totally opposed to this. Everyone who resides within a country is answerable to the laws of that country. If you do not like it, you do not have to stay - here you have the freedom to go. Break the law and we have the freedom to ask you to leave - or make you.

#79 Claiming one 'faiths' laws are God given, shows little tolerance of other faiths who also have 'God given' laws. Who gave one faith the right to claim that theirs are The Only Ones?

Like everyone else, I have the freedom to express my views to my MSP, MP Concillor et al and will.

The revelation that these 'talks' are secret or behind the scenes makes me wonder what happened to 'consultation' which ALL faiths and indeed none, should embrace. Get what is being proposed out in the open NOW and let is see what is what. Back room stuff is from a Medieval era, hopefully long since gone. Insist this is open NOW.
86

Covert Action,

09/10/2008 11:26:41
Sorry Vincent, got to dash. Later
87

oder,

Scotland 09/10/2008 11:30:04
56 Vincent-W,

that's OK!

I would be quite happy happy for you explain that in detail some time there is no need to have two systems of law maybe you haven't noticed that the Muslims don't have two systems of law nor do they allow co-existence on equal terms Islamic society, for example!
westerners can work in Saudi but are not allowed to openly pratice their faith is this equality co existence?

as poster 52 said

"Sharia law is innately superior to man made law for the simple reason that it is the Law of Allah.

is Scots law man made law? it is according to Muslims and therefore inferior! co-existence with inferior peoples were has that happened in the Islamic world? any paradise on earth you care to mention, the Koran commands that they make everyone equal either by killing or converting or subjugating to Islam them. I don't hate Muslims, however I am opposed to Islam no problem with any other faiths or atheists.

get above name calling get out your Koran I will be happy to debate with you!

62 Zish,09/10/2008 10:11:50
Henny P

The ten commandments are actually Jewish Law. They predate Christianity by a long time and were handed by Allah to Mussa (Moses

yes! and Christianity predates Islam by a 1000 years or so!







88

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 09/10/2008 11:34:02
Interesting to see that some of you are doing a Rip Van Winkle at last.TimW1234,Ottowa. My constant comments on this subject appear not to be inconsequential after all, berk!