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Shadowy tactics of US troops in Iraq

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Published Date: 11 February 2008
A MILITARY prosecutor called it "a simple case" of murder. But the conviction of a US army sniper in Baghdad for the killing of an unarmed man has provided a glimpse of the shadowy tactics employed by American forces in Iraq and the sleep-deprived conditions under which they are forced to operate.
Jurors at the court-martial of Sergeant Evan Vela yesterday took three hours to find him guilty of murder without premeditation and making false statements for his role in the execution of the Iraqi civilian in May last year.

Vela, who had faced l
ife in jail, was sentenced to ten years, after which he will receive a dishonourable discharge. His case is automatically referred to a military appeal court.

The court heard the Iraqi man, Genei Nesir Khudair al-Janabi, stumbled across a hideout occupied by Vela and his sniper team 30 miles south of Baghdad: he was shot once in the head to prevent him alerting a gang of suspected Iraqi insurgents nearby.

Defence lawyers claimed Vela, a married father of two, had slept for less than five of the previous 72 hours and that his judgment was impaired by exhaustion when he followed the orders of a superior to pull the trigger.

"This was an accident waiting to happen," his lawyer, James Culp, said. "These men were extremely sleep-deprived and nobody was thinking clearly."

Vela wept on the witness stand as he recalled the events of the night of 11 May, 2007, but said his memory of events was hazy.

"I heard the word 'shoot'. My next memory is the man was dead. It took me a minute for me to realise the shot came from the pistol in my hand. I don't remember pulling the trigger," he said.

However, according to prosecutors, the group was thinking clearly enough to try to cover up the murder by planting an AK-47 rifle on the dead man's body.

Details of the secret policy of taking weapons on operations to plant on victims emerged during evidence given by the group's leader, Sgt Mark Hensley, who admitted ordering Vela to fire the fatal shot, but who was acquitted of murder last year.

The court also heard it was an accepted policy for US snipers' units to carry fake explosives and other weapons as bait, leave them out in the open, then to shoot any suspected insurgents who tried to take them.

Iraq's human rights minister, Wijdan Mikhail Salim, has denounced the tactic and said she did not believe Mr Janabi's killing was justified or an accident.

SUICIDE BOMB-LINK MAN ARRESTED IN PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL

AMERICAN troops raided a psychiatric hospital in Baghdad yesterday and arrested a man suspected of involvement in two bombings carried out by mentally impaired women.

Ten days ago, explosives carried by two women – said by Iraqi and US officials to be mentally handicapped teenagers and unwitting suicide bombers – blew up in two popular pet markets in central Baghdad, killing 99 people and wounding more than 150. The attacks, which the US military blamed on al-Qaeda, were the deadliest bombings in the city since last April.

Iraqi health officials said the acting director of the al-Rashad hospital, which cares for mentally ill patients, had been detained. "They arrested the acting director, accusing him of working with al-Qaeda and recruiting mentally ill women and using them in suicide bombing operations," one said.

• A car bomb killed 33 people near an Iraqi army checkpoint manned by Sunni Arabs in the town of Balad yesterday.





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  • Last Updated: 10 February 2008 10:48 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Iraq , War in Iraq
 
1

britfree,

judas goat stake 11/02/2008 00:21:59
every now and then they hang one out to dry.
2

Scullion,

Canada 11/02/2008 00:28:58
If you are able to shoot someone in the head with a pistol, you are close enough to grab him.
However, the juxtapositioning of these two stories show that neither side occupies the moral high ground (if in modern day warfare it can ever be held at all).
Notwithstanding, we must demand that professional soldiers adhere to a more stringent code of conduct.
3

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 11/02/2008 01:17:17
I hope he gets freed,
4

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, Fl 11/02/2008 01:38:25
No winners in this story. An Iraqi family has lost someone, a US soldier spends the next ten years in jail for (perhaps) following orders. All sad.
5

DrP,

Canada 11/02/2008 02:54:32
#3 I hope he serves his whole sentence. This incident is typical of American actions. Anyone but an American is apparently a lesser life form.
The only pity is that Bush and Cheney can't be sentenced to share his cell.
6

W Smith,

Middle East 11/02/2008 03:59:11
Nothing 'shadowy' about the SNP's Osama Saeeds tactics in urging muslims in Scotland not to cooperate with the police then,eh?

BTW
Now we know why there are so many 'unhinged' folks in the muslim community.

Its all that in-breeding and its a now a problem substantiated by medical science - with higher rates of epilepsy, etc amongst the Pakistani community.

Any comments from the hug-a-muslim crowd?

MacAskill?

Salmond?

Galloway?

Oh its all gone quiet over there!
7

Lynne,

USA 11/02/2008 04:53:22
#5..Typical? How is that? There are over 130,000 US Troops..and you say nearly all of them do this?
A typical anti-american comment. Little or no sleep, and the fear of being outed to the insurgents, and you see no leeway here?
Did you make the same remarks when Nick Berg was behead in Iraq?, or when IED's kill or wound US Soldiers?

That's some pedestal you put yourself on. I hope You never have to serve on a jury.

8

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 04:58:00
#5 - DriP

>"This incident is typical of American actions. Anyone but an American is apparently a lesser life form."

Nice try at a 'straw man', but nobody's buying it - because of your statement was true there would have been no trial, guilty verdict or prison sentence.

This obviously proves you wrong.

The interesting thing here is the 'the juxtapositioning of these two stories' as Scullion states.

Americans feel that Americans that commit crimes deserve punishment, as had been proven - yet their enemies, when they strap bombs to the mentally disabled in an effort to kill hundreds of innocent civillians, apparently receive no condemnation from America-haters like you.

9

The Daleks,

11/02/2008 06:19:35
My sympathies are with Sergeant Vela, here.

You can't send men out to war and then apply the laws of peacetime to them. Particularly a war against an insurgent/guerrilla force.

Either send the troops and let them do what they have to do in order to win, or don't send them at all.

Half measures, which simply drag conflicts out, don't do either side any favours in the long run.
10

57Nomad,

california 11/02/2008 06:57:21
#2scullion

scullion said:

"if you are able to shoot someone in the head with a pistol, you are close enough to grab him."

Probably not. This was a sniper. Unless a person is physically impaired a head shot with a pistol at say, 10 feet, is a pretty good bet. That's some awfully long arms.
11

,

11/02/2008 09:01:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 11/02/2008 09:25:12
# 7 Lynne

.....The world and America would be better off if there had been no invasion of Iraq.

Regardless of Saddam Hussein's situation, who incidentally could control the place, America is now doomed to remain in Iraq indefinitely as a withdrawal, according to the US administration, would be viewed as a defeat for America. We can't have another Viet Nam can we?

Meanwhile, the countless megabucks and the wasted lives of Iraqis and soldiers who know no better will be expended, all to satisfy the warped brains of the current incumbents of the Whitehouse.
13

britfree,

camelon 11/02/2008 12:43:30
how typical of the apologists to try to excuse this illegality, their beloved amerikkka is in the dock and their only partizans on this thread seem to be the mentally unstable rascists and the disguating zionist trolls who barely hide their anti-arab animus
14

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/02/2008 13:16:23
Britfree

You may well be right they seem to be throwing this poor b*gger to the dogs to placate the critisism of their overall stategy. This smacks of Pvt Clegg all over again. There are a lot more and much higher ranking individuals who should be appearing in the dock long before this poor sod no least of all the Commander in Chief himself.
15

Thorr,

Scotland 11/02/2008 14:27:12
Today's papers carry the latest news of yet another American serviceman who raped a 14 year old Japanese girl on the Island of Okinawa.

In 1995 three American servicemen gang raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. A few months ago an American serviceman raped a Phillapina lady.

American soldiers gang raped and murdered a 14 year old Iraqi girl then proceeded to murder 24 members of her family to ensure they will not be able to testify to against them and alert the world to the American perpetrators war crime.

American mercenaries employed by the American security firm Blackwater are able to murder unarmed Iraqi civilians without consequence. One American mass murder by this company killed 17 unarmed Iraqi civilians.

Lt. William Calley and his American troops murdered some 500 Vietmanese in My Li. The American military were able to conceal this war crime for three years, when it came to light Lt Calley got off scotfree.

On 3rd July 1988 an American Captain on a state of the art warship in the Persian Gulf murdered some 292 unarmed Iranian civilians by shooting down the plainly discernable civilian Iranian passenger Jumbo Jet that they were travelling in.

During the so called Korean War American troops were ordered to fire on unarmed Korean refugees fleeing to the South at the bridge of Ro Gan Ree. Of course the Americans got away with that war crime as well.

It was estimated by the New England Medical Journal that when Iraq was invaded by the Americans on the basis of a lie by Bush some 100,000 civilian Iraqis were killed as co-lateral damage.

How many innocent civilians were murdered by American carpet bombing Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam???

All this data can easily be verified by a little research on the web!
16

Number 6,

Germany 11/02/2008 14:30:09
There is another trial going on at the moment at Fort Bragg. A Captain and staff sgt from the american @Special Forces@ are accused of cold blooded murder after shooting an unarmed man from 100 meters. He was being questioned by Afgahnistani troops at the time,
when the captain decided he was a terrorist and ordered the other guy to shoot him there and then.

A military investigation found nothing untoward , however the General in whose theatre of responsibility
the murder took place, was having none of it and demanded they were tried for murder. Latest news is that the defence are siting army policy on suspected
terrorists and also have called for a miss-trial sa the charges were " procedurley flawed. You won't hear this story on Fox news or indeed CNN.

Go to www.consortiumnews.com
17

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/02/2008 14:36:33
18

I have heard stories of journalists being targeted by US troops for reporting atrocities perpetrated by them.
There is a lot of nasty stuff going on which is filtered out by the Military under a military secrecy blanket with the help of some of their tame media mostly run by Rupert Murdoch enterprises. Mind you war is a dirty business and in all honesty this sort of thing is common in war which is another obvious reason it shouldnt be seen as a necessary option of foreign policy.
18

Thorr,

Scotland 11/02/2008 14:36:41
Today's papers carry the latest news of yet another American serviceman who raped a 14 year old Japanese girl on the Island of Okinawa.

In 1995 three American servicemen gang raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. A few months ago an American serviceman raped a Phillapina lady.

American soldiers gang raped and murdered a 14 year old Iraqi girl then proceeded to murder 24 members of her family to ensure they will not be able to testify to against them and alert the world to the American perpetrators' war crime.

American mercenaries employed by the American security firm Blackwater are able to murder unarmed Iraqi civilians without consequence. One American mass murderous act by this company killed 17 unarmed Iraqi civilians. Naturally, no consequences for Blackwater!

Lt. William Calley and his American troops murdered some 500 Vietmanese in the tiny village of My Li. The American military were able to conceal this war crime for three years, when it came to light Lt Calley got off scotfree.

On 3rd July 1988 an American Captain on a state of the art warship in the Persian Gulf murdered some 292 unarmed Iranian civilians by shooting down the plainly discernable civilian Iranian passenger Jumbo Jet that they were travelling in. This Ameican mass murderer was decorated.

During the so called Korean War American troops were ordered to fire on unarmed Korean refugees fleeing to the South at the bridge of Ro Gan Ree. Of course the Americans got away with that war crime as well.

It was estimated by the New England Medical Journal that when Iraq was invaded by the Americans on the basis of a lie by Bush some 100,000 civilian Iraqis were killed as co-lateral damage.

How many innocent civilians were murdered by American carpet bombing Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam???

All this data can easily be verified by a little research on the web!
19

britfree,

camelon 11/02/2008 15:00:43
anti ameerikkkan? yes please. every now and then they hang one out to dry . it covers(they think) the enormity of their crimes against humanity if they prosecute a hapless individual as a distraction
20

Hickory,

US 11/02/2008 16:44:10
Yes, they gave an American soldier 10 yrs. Now, should they do the same for the terrorists who kill up to 25 innocent people? You bleeding hearts have your head in a bad place. You might get a concussion when you sit on the loo. War is hell. Young men and women pay the price for politicians doing their thing.
21

,

11/02/2008 17:01:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Captain Midnight,

San Francisco, USA 11/02/2008 17:14:17
#20
I guess you will never see any good from the United States or any person in our military doing good around the world. Many of our service men are still doing a difficult job under difficult circumstances.
You only see things from a hate America point of view.
23

Number 6,

Germany 11/02/2008 17:18:52
20 Thorr, Did you know that the Officer who was sent to investigate the Mai Li atrocity was none other than Colin Powell? His investigation consisted of a chat with the Formation Commander, and that was that, no inteviewing anyone who was present of course. Needless to say he found no evidence of wrong-doing, move along please.
24

Lynne,

USA 11/02/2008 17:25:48
Number 6..You were there? You were in on that conversation? Wow..an eyewitness to history!!!
25

britfree,

camelon 11/02/2008 17:52:34
dalek is big jock. dhimmi-what? i carena a thing for a single amerikkkan soldier/civilian full stop. when amerikkkans care a thing about the evil perpetrated daily on the poor palestinian , i will simply dislike them for the millions of other war crimes they are responsible for, commited since they genocided(verb)the people they displaced.
26

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 18:01:10
#12 - lhtt

>"Regardless of Saddam Hussein's situation, who incidentally could control the place..."

And Hitler controlled Europe in 1942, I'm sure that you and your pals here would consider that in the same light as your lament for Saddam here.

27

The Daleks,

Longmen 11/02/2008 18:04:22
#27

I'm an Arabist, not a Zionist. I've lived and worked in the Arab world, and on a one to one basis. I've found them to be some of the most civilised people I've ever met on my worldwide travels.

My sympathies are with the Palestinians on that particular issue.

However, that doesn't blind me to the threat of militant Islam, nor should it you.

My original comment was about judging soldiers under fire by peacetime standards.

Regardless of current American foreign policy, they are on the whole a good people, and very much like us.
28

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 18:14:41
#29 - Daleks

>"I'm an Arabist, not a Zionist. I've lived and worked in the Arab world, and on a one to one basis. I've found them to be some of the most civilised people I've ever met on my worldwide travels."

I haven't lived there, but I agree with the rest of your statement.

>"My sympathies are with the Palestinians on that particular issue. "

My sympathies are with both, I don't think that it's necessarily an either/or proposition. Until more people agree I don't think that there will be much progress.

>"However, that doesn't blind me to the threat of militant Islam, nor should it you."

A very sound statement. I agree.

>"Regardless of current American foreign policy, they are on the whole a good people, and very much like us."

Thanks. We all have our extremists, unfortunately they get 'equal time' from the media. Most of us are caught in the middle between these two extremes.

Good post The Daleks.
29

Stefan,

NYC 11/02/2008 18:20:28
#27. As I said on the other article. Your comments are consistently predictable, boring and stupid. Congratulations on the trifecta.

Every month there are academic and public examples of private citizens criticizing Israel in support of Palestinian rights. I witness a march in support of palestine on an annual basis in NYC.

In the real world, people of all origins have complex and credible thoughts on the plight of Palestine, the tragic state of the planet and their respective country's role in it. What color is the sky in your world of absolutes? We Americans are just like most of the people you know (and presumably hate) except that we have over developed upper bodies and claw-like hands for bullying the rest of the world.
30

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/02/2008 19:07:31
28 Daithi

The US has supported more despot Dictatorships than it has opposed. In fact the US has even set a few up in power. Your and their hypocricy is breathtaking.
Now how about the accusation put to you regarding your donations to the IRA? have you or have you not helped raise funds for the IRA during their bombing and killing spree in Northern Ireland?
31

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 19:18:06
#32 - fotc

>"Now how about the accusation put to you regarding your donations to the IRA?"

An 'accusation'! Oh no, I stand accused! I demand legal representation - where's my attorney?

What happens if I don't answer!

- are 'ya gonna p**s yourself?

- hold your breath until you turn blue?
32

Thorr,

11/02/2008 19:21:43
Post#25
Number 6 Germany

Thanks for the information, I was unaware of the finer details surrounding the so called investigation.
33

The Daleks,

Longmen 11/02/2008 19:30:28
#32

You seem to be confusing an individual American citizen/poster with the current US government.

The vast majority of Americans are proud of their country, which is something we seem to have forgotten. It's possibly this fact more than any other that makes them seem different to us these days.

We've become self-hating, whilst they still remain proud.

The American government may have done some questionable things in its own self interest, but so has every government.

It's about time we regained our own self pride/muscle and stopped beating the Americans for maintaining theirs.
34

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 19:30:56
#34 - Thorr

>"Thanks for the information, I was unaware of the finer details surrounding the so called investigation."

And no source necessary! Complete, unassuming belief! What a find thing to behold.
35

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 19:36:20
Should be 'What a FINE thing ...'

Sorry, I was overcome with the love floating through the air between these two.
36

The Daleks,

Longmen 11/02/2008 19:37:40
#30

Fair comment on Palestine/Israel.

What's done is done, and partisanship on that issue needs to be put to one side if any final and lasting peace is to be found.
37

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 19:38:41
#35 - The Daleks

>"We've become self-hating, whilst they still remain proud."

Why do you feel that you guys have become 'self hating', Daleks?
38

Stefan,

NYC 11/02/2008 19:57:04
#32 has a point insofar as private groups of American Irish did in fact supply financial support to Gerry Adams' group very much in the open. I can remember fund raising events at the Garden City Hotel in Long Island, New York. I didn't think much of it then, but now I can see it as being on par to Bin Laden having a $500/plate dinner in Karachi to raise money. Every donor would to me have blood on their hands.
39

The Daleks,

Longmen 11/02/2008 20:46:22
Daithi.

You've clearly not had much contact with post-WWII/post-colonial Europe then.

Lots of soul searching, lots of identity loss/loss of purpose. Lots of PC engendered self-loathing. Unprecedented mass Third World immigration. Loss of industry, loss of international clout. Loss of respect for established institutions. Loss of social cohesion.

And that's just for starters.

With the EU we're getting around to getting our act back together, but it's been painful, and there's no guarantee of success.
40

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/02/2008 21:14:21
33 Daithi

You just did ya wee terrorist sympathiser you.
What a hypocrite you have a nerve condemning Islamic extremist terrorism while helping to fund Christian extremist terrorism.
I doubt even Smith would stoop that low but I wouldnt put my mortgage on it.
41

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 22:50:14
#14 - The Daleks

>"You've clearly not had much contact with post-WWII/post-colonial Europe then.

No, not really. Mostly Ireland, Portugal (and the Azores), they kind'a feel like they're on the periphery of Europe, not one of the 'big dogs' - although that is changing.
42

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 23:01:26
#42 - FOTC

>"You just did ya wee terrorist sympathiser you."

FOTC, I see that it's a wee bit hard for you to grasp a few things:

1. It's possible to 'sympathize' with both sides in a conflict.

2. You can't equate conflicts, although they have their similarities they also have different causes and solutions.

3. You can't have peace without bringing in the extremists on both sides. Bringing in the 'hard men' of the IRA and Loyalists seems to be working, I don't know that the hard-line Zionist or Islamist is currently interested in solutions.

You can compare Ireland and Palestine if you like, but what comparison is there to the non-Palestinian Fundamentalist Islamic Religious Extremism?
43

Dáithí,

San Jose 11/02/2008 23:12:11
#42 - FOTC

>"What a hypocrite you have a nerve condemning Islamic extremist terrorism while helping to fund Christian extremist terrorism."

I was intrigued when Finnking so desperately needed to equate an Israeli Patrol forcing friends and family members of suspects as mediators to approach them, with the intent of saving lives, with Islamists that place bombs on the mentally infirm to kill as many civilians as possible - under the 'Human Shields' umbrella.

I see now that you are trying to equate 'Christian extremist terrorism' with 'Islamic extremist terrorism'.

So actually, you're no longer trying to excuse the indefensible acts of Islamic Fundamentalists but merely proclaiming that 'yeah, we're dirty - but you're dirty too'?

That's your defense?
44

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

11/02/2008 23:23:44
44

"1. It's possible to 'sympathize' with both sides in a conflict."

Did you also raise funds for the UDA or UFF then?
Do you help to raise funds for both Israel and Hamas then?

I sympathised with the IRA cause for a United Ireland but I wouldnt dream of supporting their bombing campaigns by giving them money to buy arms.

Do you think your fund raising helped to bring the extremists in Ireland to the negociating table then?
I thought it was down to compromising from both side myself.

"You can compare Ireland and Palestine if you like, but what comparison is there to the non-Palestinian Fundamentalist Islamic Religious Extremism?"

I have no idea what it is you are trying to ask there?
I can only compare Islamic extremism with all other forms of extremism including Zionist and Christian how else can somebody compare extremism except by extremism?





45

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/02/2008 23:32:39
45

I have never excused Islamic extremism and terrorism anywhere maybe you can correct me on that one?

"I see now that you are trying to equate 'Christian extremist terrorism' with 'Islamic extremist terrorism'"

Of course I am who wouldnt? apart from a Zionist extremist in sympathy with Christian extremists.
Bizzare bedmates at the best of times.

"Yeah they are dirty but youre dirty too"

EXACTLY!!! spot on finally. Now you get a glimmer of how ordinary non partisan folk see this conflict.
46

Cyril,

New Zealand 11/02/2008 23:36:22
Bush will be remembered in much the same way as Hitler and Stalin.
47

britfree,

camelon 12/02/2008 00:58:17
fair play to the daleks l'man , i am over hasty in my hostility to individual americans , and my anger against your military/industrial complex is oftentimes expressed in too personal terms against folks who may not fully appreciate the dislike their geo-political assumptions provoke amongst other folk who do not share them. its not the point of this post to provoke further debate on whether im right or even righter however i dont intend to sit silent on describing the ugly reality of the amerikkkan imperium for the sake of not offending some (undoubtedly) nice folks.
48

britfree,

camelon 12/02/2008 01:03:16
fair play to the daleks l'man , i am over hasty in my hostility to individual americans , and my anger against your military/industrial complex is oftentimes expressed in too personal terms against folks who may not fully appreciate the dislike their geo-political assumptions provoke amongst other folk who do not share them. its not the point of this post to provoke further debate on whether im right or even righter however i dont intend to sit silent on describing the ugly reality of the amerikkkan imperium for the sake of not offending some (undoubtedly) nice folks.
49

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 02:24:44
#46 – FOTC (a lot of questions, I’ll need to divide them up)

>” Did you also raise funds for the UDA or UFF then?

Who says I raised funds for the IRA?

I made many legal donations to Irish Northern Aid and also PSF after they had adopted a pro-GFA position and after it was made legal to support many pro-PSF causes by President Clinton.

As an aside, I also sent a letter of support to David Ervine (PUP) in 2001 expressing support for his pro-GFA position by abstaining from the votes excluding PSF from taking office in 2000 and 2001.

There are many ways to sympathize and show support.

However, since James Donald feels that this is supporting terrorism, you have parroted his position without doing your homework – you should have found out fact before pursuing your line in the next few statements.

>” Do you help to raise funds for both Israel and Hamas then?

Israel is a country. Hamas is a political party. I raise funds for neither. What obligation do you feel that I have to?

50

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 02:26:27
#46 – FOTC (continued…)


>” I sympathized with the IRA cause for a United Ireland but I wouldn’t dream of supporting their bombing campaigns by giving them money to buy arms.”

Good for you. As stated, neither did I.

> Do you think your fundraising helped to bring the extremists in Ireland to the negociating table then?

I didn’t do fundraising for extremists, as has been explained. I supported charities, PSF and the SDLP. As for helping extremists, money helps – money used to create jobs and increase the standard of living for each side can seriously undermine the support that extremists get from their peoples.

By this, I’m speaking large-scale funding from Britain as well as the promise of investment from companies around the world – if the situation in the 6 could normalize.

>”I thought it was down to compromising from both side myself.

Compromise depends upon a number of things:

1. You are willing ‘to give up something to get something’.

2. The sides are fairly equal and/or at stalemate.

3. Both sides no longer have the support to resist compromise.

4. There are potential rewards to both sides, possibly large.

I’m sure that there are others. You can say that just about any difference is merely down to a ‘compromise’, I think that goes over the motivators to compromise too lightly.
51

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 02:47:32
#46 – FOTC (continued…)

My Question: "You can compare Ireland and Palestine if you like, but what comparison is there to the non-Palestinian Fundamentalist Islamic Religious Extremism?"

>” I have no idea what it is you are trying to ask there? “

I don’t equate Catholics willing to defend their neighborhoods with Religious Islamic Fundamental Extremists that want to force everyone to live under Islamic Law. Do you?

It may be that the Palestinians also feel that they are defending their neighborhoods, and in doing so I DON’T equate this with Religions Islamic Fundamentalist Extremists that demand the end of the existence of Israel. Do you?

Did that help clarify?
52

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 02:51:43
#46 – FOTC (continued…)

>”I can only compare Islamic extremism with all other forms of extremism including Zionist and Christian how else can somebody compare extremism except by extremism?”

I don’t think that you can compare any extremism except by relation to a center point, however you want to define that.

I would say that from a center point, PIRA defensive actions weren’t extremist at all, but OFFENSIVE PIRA actions could be considered more extreme than that.

I might not classify Palestinian defensive actions as extremist, but I would probably classify OFFENSIVE actions as more extremist.

I would classify any action that called for a person to blow him/herself up to be more extreme than either of these two examples, and using mentally infirm people as ‘mules’ to deliver explosives to specifically target civilians as even more extreme.

I don’t think that calling everyone that shoots at a British or American soldier necessarily qualifies as a ‘terrorist’.

Alas, tonite is Tax Nite so it will be a few hours before I can continue, but I do want to go to your post #47.
53

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 06:01:01
#47 – FOTC

>”I have never excused Islamic extremism and terrorism anywhere maybe you can correct me on that one?”

Fair play to you, I’ll not use that statement again, unless I can present an example. Unfortunately, many of these threads have various ‘recycled’ names and they seem to run together after a while.

My Statement: "I see now that you are trying to equate 'Christian extremist terrorism' with 'Islamic extremist terrorism'"

Your Statement: “Of course I am who wouldn’t?”

I’ll say that firstly, neither the Christian extremists or the Islamic extremists would.

Secondly, I hope that I explained the differences between the extremists in my earlier reply to you. If I didn’t do so clearly enough I’ll make another effort.

> apart from a Zionist extremist in sympathy with Christian extremists.

I’ll pass on this, it appears to be some sort of cheap shot.
54

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 06:02:48
#47 – FOTC (cont…)

>”Bizzare bedmates at the best of times”.

Since nearly anyone that demands that others submit to their way of thinking I’d term as ‘extremist’ to a degree, you’d have to include just about anyone with a strong belief and a desire to impose it on others. There are simply a lot of ‘bizzare bedmates’ to be found.

- My Statement: "Yeah they are dirty but youre dirty too"

- Your reply: “EXACTLY!!! spot on finally”.

Now, just because I’m not in agreement with you doesn’t mean that I’m not ‘spot on’! ;)

>”Now you get a glimmer of how ordinary non partisan folk see this conflict.”

I’ve always seen how ‘ordinary non-partisan folks see this conflict’, and many others.

A simplistic, superficial viewpoint that is personified by the people that wear the ‘No blood for Oil’ signs.

I'd recommend that these folks study current events in depth a bit more.

55

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 07:12:03
D of San Jose

Would you agree that a group who intended to use race-specific biological weapons to achieve their political goals could be described as "extremists" ?
56

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 07:30:03
....or maybe even "terrorists" ?
57

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 07:42:37
And would you agree that an organisation which planted bombs in railway stations and randomly murdered hundreds of innocent men, women and children in order to influence the political situation of a country could also be described as "terrorists" ?
58

Number 6,

Germany 12/02/2008 11:36:15
26 No lynne , I simply live in the free world where information is freely available. If you have the courage to confront your Military's shamefull history,
and the part your goverment's have played in the cover-up, then log on to www.consortiumnews.com and do some reading. An American site , run by ex members of the CIA.Plenty of documentary evidence is made available.

But will you ?
59

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 12/02/2008 12:02:11
Why does the US find it necessary to have a military presence in more than 100 (one hundred) countries around the world?
60

Thorr,

Scotland 12/02/2008 14:38:49
Post#60
Number 6, Germany

Of course she will notcheck the site but I certainly will take the trouble to explore the site with a critical eye when time permits.

Lynne, I am sure, is associated with AIPAC or the following web-site:http://Giyus.org or both.

Be careful not to download anything from the site-just read.

You might also type Dier Yassin into your search engine and a number of sites will come up, some of them American. These sites tell of the cold blooded murder of the inhabitants of this village man,woman and child carried out by Jewish terrorist organizations to ensure the Palestinians never retuen.
61

Thorr,

Scotland 12/02/2008 14:40:33
Post #62

Apologies, the last word of the post should read return.
62

Dáithí,

San Jose 12/02/2008 14:58:41
#57 - >”Would you agree that a group…”

#59 - >”And would you agree that an organization…”

#61 - >”Why does the US find it necessary…”

Every time I waste effort tracing down these claims, I find that the facts are a lot different than presented – in fact, I see that you don’t even bother to post the links to the source because they usually don’t stand up to examination.

If you guys can’t take the time to reference your statements, don’t expect me to bother running them down for you. Today’s a holiday and I have plans.

Besides, don’t you guys usually prefer providing your own, desired answer to your questions? Since I’ll be gone, I’ll save us all the effort of discourse and provide the sum of today’s commentary:

Comment #1 – Boy, America sure is poopy. I really hate them.

Comment #2 – Me too. I sure hate them.

Comment #1 – Me to. Hate, hate hate.

Comment #2 – Do you know that there are Jews in America?

Comment #1 – Since they allow Jews, Jews must run America. Jews are poopy too.

Comment #2 – Do you know that they kill all of their firstborn?

Comment #4 – Really? I never knew that until you proved it just now by saying it.

Comment #3 – Yes, I saw that on http://Ireallyhatejewsaneamericans.org/poopy

Carry on - have a nice day! ;)
63

britfree,

daffys poopy lambeg drum 12/02/2008 16:13:31
the above posts say every thing about the level of debate you can expect from daffy'n'pals .another poster asks a question:was deir yasin justified ? do you care to attempt a retrospective justification ? the american trolls answer "hater hater hater" not really on for a debate .thats why i spend most of my time making jokes they dont understand
64

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 17:23:41
#64

I haven't made any statements, I just asked what seem to me to be simple, reasonable questions which for some reason you are reluctant to answer.
As for posting links to sources.....all in due course....but first,could you simply answer the questions....please, if it's not too much trouble.....
65

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 19:38:49
#64

An organisation which views the use of race-specific biological weapons as a legitimate means of achieving it's political goals is a terrorist organisation.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement ?
66

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 04:42:44
#66 – mk-ultra said:

>”I haven't made any statements, I just asked what seem to me to be simple, reasonable questions which for some reason you are reluctant to answer.”

Hardly reluctant, since I stated in post #64 that today was a holiday and I would be gone. I see that this didn’t preclude you from some sort of insinuation that I was avoiding answering your poorly phrased question.

Regardless of your misunderstanding, here it is:

>“An organisation which views the use of race-specific biological weapons as a legitimate means of achieving its political goals is a terrorist organisation. Do you agree or disagree with this statement ?”

With all due respect, I would imagine that you expect me to say ‘Of course!’

You will then ‘pounce’ with some absurd pronouncement like ‘well then, you agree that the US/Israel/whomever is a Terrorist organization!’ – like some wee child that has pulled a plumb from a pie and is exceedingly happy with themselves.

It doesn’t work that way, and I’ll give examples why in the next two posts.
67

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 04:44:20
#66 – mk-ultra’s question cont…

Your question is:

>“An organisation which views the use of race-specific biological weapons as a legitimate means of achieving it's political goals is a terrorist organisation. Do you agree or disagree with this statement ?”

OK, let me dissect this question and give you the answer you so eagerly await:

>”An organisation …

OK, British Army 8th Army in 1942 qualifies as an organization...

>” which views the use of race-specific biological weapons…”

Race specific? OK, something like a weapon that could be used in 1942 Tobruk that would only kill Europeans (the Italians and Germans) and NOT the native Arabs? I’d view this in a positive light - wouldn’t you?

>” as a legitimate means of achieving it's political goals…”

Hmm, defeating the Nazi’s is certainly a political goal to be achieved.

>” … is a terrorist organization”

The British 8th Army viewing race-specific biological weapons in 1942 to kill Nazi’s in Tobruk and not kill Arabs would be a good idea, and NOT qualify as terrorism in my opinion. In fact, it’s a d*mn shame that they didn’t have any.
68

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 04:47:26
#66 – mk-ultra’s question cont…#2

>“An organisation which views the use of race-specific biological weapons as a legitimate means of achieving it's political goals is a terrorist organisation. Do you agree or disagree with this statement ?”

OK, let me dissect this question for a second time:

The US, UK, Aussies, Canadians and Kiwi’s invading Okinawa in 1945 certainly qualify as an ‘organization’

>” which views the use of race-specific biological weapons…”

Race specific? OK - a weapon that could be used on Okinawa that would only kill Japanese (Asians) and NOT the Allied invasion force? Sounds like a great idea to me, not you?

>” as a legitimate means of achieving it's political goals…”

The termination of Imperial Japan certainly was the political goal of the US, UK, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders.

>” … is a terrorist organization”

Not at all, in fact I’d consider them heroic!!

Too bad that race-specific biological weapons weren’t available to the Allies! If Imperial Japan would have seen that the Allies had developed race-specific biological weapons that would kill JAPANESE but not any of the Allies, perhaps the use of nuclear weapons would have been unnecessary!

However, since my two examples are not helpful in any sort of anti-American, anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish or anti-UK context, I’m guessing that you are caught unaware, and will either NOT reply or claim that I ‘twisted your words’.

BTW, you'll see that I asked a number of questions to you - which, of course, I'd kindly request answered.

69

Let's have the truth,

13/02/2008 07:16:55
# 64

....My post was not for your information only but as you have a problem with it, here is a link for you:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html
70

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 13/02/2008 07:38:28
#2 Scullion:

Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee! We do have a code of conduct! A very stringent one. What do you expect. He's in a combat environment, he is given an order by is superiors to take the man out and he does as he is ordered. Now they want to send him to prison for ten years! This is pure unadulterated bull poop.

People fail to understand that this is a war! Civilians die in war, no one likes it, no one wants to be compelled to kill a civilian. If the man was indeed an innocent bystander. But if he had been given the opportunity, perhaps he could have queried the man on his political views before killing him. Why don't we all just sit down to a spot of tea and a crumpet and try to sort this out? The British, Americans, Germans, French, Japanese, etc., etc., did the same thing in World War II and you can't say they didn't.That is an extremely unfortunate circumstance of war.

Now these bureaucratic asses want to send a soldier to prison for doing his job? What poppy cock! I thought that the United States stood for Justice and Fair Play! I have long seen this nation fall into bureaucratic double talk and a willingness to throw the low ranking non com under the train while the reat slip out the back door.

71

Number 6,

Germany 13/02/2008 09:23:15
72 Combat vet maybe if your country had the courage to prosecute the rich and powerful behind this appalling occupation then the "Little guy" would be able to disobey these orders. To say he was only doing as he was told is the most cowardly of excuses. Your country has waged enough wars, non stop throughout your history, how is it that you have learned nothing
from the disasters of Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia to name but a few.
72

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 10:00:04
#69

"Race specific? OK, something like a weapon that could be used in 1942 Tobruk that would only kill Europeans (the Italians and Germans) and NOT the native Arabs? I’d view this in a positive light - wouldn’t you?"

I should point out that in that situation if you released a biological agent which specifically killed Europeans, you would have killed all the British troops too.
Aside from the cold, slightly psychopathic discussion about whether it would be good tactics or not, the thing about biological weapons is that they do not discriminate between combatants and civilians and the fact is that their use is illegal under the 1925 Geneva Protocol and 1972 Biological Weapons Convention.
If you had used such a race-specific weapon against the Japanese on Okinawa, you would have killed large numbers of innocent civilians too.Men,women and children.I assume you wouldn't view this as "heroic"?

"The termination of Imperial Japan certainly was the political goal of the US, UK, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders"

But the mass extermination of the population(genocide)certainly was not.
One of the things which distinguishes terrorism from other forms of warfare is the targeting of civilians.
Using a biological agent that you know will spread uncontrollably throughout the civilian population killing vast numbers of innocent men, women and children would,under any circumstances be an act of terrorism.
If I published material which discussed the "usefulness" of biological weapons in my struggle for world supremacy, I would be in Guantanamo Bay before you could say habeas corpus.
But apparently,if I lived in Washington,and discussed the "correct" use of bio-weapons, I would be more likely be offered a job with the Government.......

"....advanced forms of biological warfare
that can “target” specific genotypes may
transform biological warfare from the realm
of terror to a politically useful tool."
("Rebuilding Americas Defenses",The Project for th
73

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 10:04:42
...."The Project for the New American Century"

http://www.newamericancentury.org/
74

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 11:05:29
D of San Jose

Is it acceptable for intelligence agencies or governments to kill their own civilians to achieve a desired political goal?
For example, the case of "Gladio", a NATO and CIA inspired operation in mainland Europe in the 60's, 70's and 80's in which intelligence agencies working together with neo-fascist organisations and the criminal underworld carried out bombings and shootings of innocent civilians and blamed the attacks on Leftist groups.The Bologna railway station massacre and the Oktoberfest bombing of 1980 are just two examples of their handiwork.

"You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security."
(Gladio agent Vincenzo Vinciguerra)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

Would you describe this operation as "terrorism"?
If not, how would you describe it?
75

Number 6,

Germany 13/02/2008 14:11:01
#76 Did you know that when the Chilieans carried out a car bomb assasanation, in the heart of Washington DC,
killing Americans in the process, Bush SNR , then head of the CIA first ignored all the warnings from his own security agencies issued as soon as the assasin applied for a visa. After the atrocity, he then successfuly covered up Chilie's involvement and ensured
no charges were brought against them.

Bush senior certainly has no qualms about Americans being killed if it suits his political ends. Clearly
bush jnr is no different. Cue masses of outraged Americans who are not even aware that this goes on, inside the US, coming on to rant about conspiracy theories.
76

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 16:25:14
#74 mk

> “I should point out that in that situation if you released a biological agent which specifically killed Europeans, you would have killed all the British troops too.”

I thought that it went without saying that an aerial biological attack would have preceded the British armored attack. These posts have gone on too long already without the necessity of having to cover military tactics with you.

OK, so far you have failed to provide any example of when they have actually been used…

>”the thing about biological weapons is that they do not discriminate between combatants and civilians and the fact is that their use is illegal under the 1925 Geneva Protocol and 1972 Biological Weapons Convention.

OK, so far you have failed to provide any example of when they have actually been used….

>”If you had used such a race-specific weapon against the Japanese on Okinawa, you would have killed large numbers of innocent civilians too.

Hypothetical, as massive amounts of civilians died anyway.

OK, but so far you have failed to provide any example of when they have actually been used….

I see that in a later post you have given a link, will this show where these weapons have been used?

Imagine my disappointment when I find out that they really don’t, but probably just link to some goofy conspiracy theory.

77

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 16:27:55
(#74 – mk cont…)

>” But the mass extermination of the population (genocide)certainly was not”.

OK, then where did this use of biological weapons this actually happen at?

>"If I PUBLISHED material…"

>"...if I lived in Washington and DISCUSSED the "correct" use of bio-weapons…"

INTENDED? PUBLISHED? DISCUSSED?

So let me get this straight, you want to get me to label someone as a terrorist because they DISCUSSED race-specific weapons OR PUBLISHED MATERIAL?

>” http://www.newamericancentury.org/”

This link doesn’t even take me to the so-called ‘report’, merely to some web page of a Washington think-tank or something.

Surely THIS isn’t the basis for your desire to have me label the US as terrorist – because someone DISCUSSED them, or typed up a REPORT??
78

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 16:32:42
(#74 – The end of the chase)

As I’ve stated before, whenever I show the courtesy to pursue the fanciful claims of some ‘wingnut on a webpage’, I find, as usual, that the ‘proof’ that they are basing some sort of accusation or other on is hypothetical, non-existent or a reference to some conspiracy theory site or other.

In this case, we have exclamations of ‘aren’t they terrorists too?’ and what we see in evidence is a reference to a non-linked report, in a 'blog' website, with another link to a Wikipedia page that opens with the line:

“This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia’s quality standards”

Once you actually READ the article contains no ‘evidence’ at all, merely claims and counter claims, all under the ‘False Flag Operations’ conspiracy theory umbrella.

Let’s take a look at a few lines from ‘Wikipedia’:

,”the European Parliament passed a resolution condemning Gladio, requesting full investigations – which have yet to be done – and total dismantlement of these paramilitary structures – which, as of 2005, has not been proven”.

So here I end, pal;

- you use dated material
- referring to an investigation that didn’t happen
- to a case that hasn’t been proven,

Then, on the basis of this stuff, you want me to label a country as ‘terrorist’ because of some biological report posted on some webpage where someone ‘thought about’ bio weapons that you don’t even link to properly?

As the immortal bard WC Fields said – “Go away kid, you’re bothering me”.

79

Dáithí,

San Jose 13/02/2008 16:34:39
Note to self:

Self (and others) - avoid discussions where the words 'shadowy', 'spooks', 'CIA', 'clandestine' or 'conspiracy' appear in the headline - they are magnets for the 'conspiracy theory wacko' crowd.
80

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 13/02/2008 22:55:31
#81

"they are magnets for the 'conspiracy theory wacko' crowd".

......and you are living proof.
81

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 22:59:47
#80

So it's all just a "conspiracy theory" is it ?
Even though senior politicians and intelligence agents have admitted that it exists, and confessed their involvement in it.People such as the Former President of Italy Francesco Cossiga.

”the European Parliament passed a resolution condemning Gladio, requesting full investigations – which have yet to be done – and total dismantlement of these paramilitary structures – which, as of 2005, has not been proven”.

Thing which has not been proven, is the dismantlement of the organisation, not the existence of the organisation.
It seems strange that the European Parliament would pass a resolution condemning something which was only a conspiracy theory, don't you think?

The Bologna Bombing:
"The makings of the bomb... came from an arsenal used by Gladio... according to a parliamentary commission on terrorism..."
(The Guardian)

"The investigations concerning the Bologna bombing proved Gladio's direct influence: Licio Gelli, P2's headmaster, received a sentence for investigation diversion, as well as Francesco Pazienza and SISMI(Italian Intelligence) officers Pietro Musumeci and Giuseppe Belmonte."

Even a former director of the CIA confirmed its existence.

"In a television interview on Italy's Channel 4, former CIA director William Colby confirmed the U.S. role in Italy's secret army and described how he was sent to Stockholm in 1951 to set up a similar network in Scandinavia.

Colby, who headed the CIA from 1973 to 1976, also revealed that U.S. intelligence agencies channeled large sums to Italy's right-of-center Christian Democrats and other "anti-Communist" political parties during the Cold War era - a connection that has long been alleged by Italy's left-wing parties. The money, said Colby, was used to ensure that Italy did not "fall into Communist hands."
(The Washington Post, Nov 14, 1990)

There is considerable evidence from numerous sources and investigations that Gladio was connected to
82

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 23:02:37
.....to the groups which carried out these terrorist atrocities in Europe.
But to you, it's all just a "wacko conspiracy theory" isn't it?
Reasonable people can read the evidence and decide for themselves.........
83

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 23:07:51
"An extraordinary testimony remains in the labyrinth of paperwork surrounding the "Strategy of Tension", Vincenzo Vinciguerra, a member of the fascist group Avanguardia Nazionale, is serving life for his part in the Peteano bombing.

In 1984, questioned by Judges examining the 1980 Bologna station bomb in which 82 people were killed and for which two secret service agents were convicted, he said: "With the massacre of Peteano, and with all those that have followed, the knowledge should by now be clear that there existed a real live structure, occult and hidden, with the capacity of giving a strategic direction to the outrages." The structure, he said, "lies within the state itself".

"There exists in Italy a secret force parallel to the armed forces, composed of civilians and military men, in an anti-Soviet capacity - that is, to organise a resistance on Italian soil against a Russian army... A secret organisation, a super-organisation with a network of communications, arms and explosives, and men trained to use them... "A super-organisation which, lacking a Soviet military invasion which might not happen, took up the task, on Nato's behalf, of preventing a slip to the left in the political balance of the country. This they did, with the assistance of the official secret services and the political and military forces..."

Vinciguerra has now made this statement to the Guardian: "The terrorist line was followed by camouflaged people, people belonging to the security apparatus, or those linked to the state apparatus through rapport or collaboration. I say that every single outrage that followed from 1969 fitted into a single, organised matrix... Avanguardia Nazionale, like Ordine Nuovo (the main right-wing terrorist group active during the 1970s), were being mobilised into the battle as part of an anti-communist strategy originating not with organisations deviant from the institutions of power, but from within the state itself, and specifically from within the a
84

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 23:09:43
.....and specifically from within the ambit of the state's relations within the Atlantic Alliance."
(The Guardian, Dec 5th 1990)
85

mk-ultra,

Edinburgh 14/02/2008 00:00:47
#78

"OK, so far you have failed to provide any example of when they have actually been used…"

Would you like me list all the instances of the US military using biological (and chemical) agents in their own cities, on their own populations?
I will if you like.......
86

Number 6,

Germany 14/02/2008 15:08:12
There are even lists of the US companies that supplied Saddam with the chemicals used to slaughter the Kurds
on the net. They only stopped at the insistence of Israel, who were appalled when they learned what was being supplied. As for weapons to Iran, that's just as bad. Did you know , for example that Colin Powell had spare parts for tomahawk missiles, destined for american troops in the field, diverted to Iran ? To hell
with the fact this left US troops vulnerable, there was money to be made. His pathalogical lying to congress during the inquirey that followed was stomach turning.
87

Number 6,

Germany 14/02/2008 15:09:36
One of his answers was "To my recollection, I have no recollection". No wonder he never commanded US troops
on active duty.

 

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