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Scottish or British – a question of allegiance



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Published Date:
12 March 2008
IT WAS supposed to ease tensions within multi-cultural Britain, helping diverse communities to heal divisions caused by the terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow.
But a proposal to make Britain's teenagers pledge an oath of allegiance to the Queen was immediately dismissed by Alex Salmond, the First Minister, as "Monty Python-esque" – a description which captured the Anglo-centric origin of the idea, as well a
t the contempt with which it is likely to be viewed north of the Border.

The plan – put forward by Lord Goldsmith, the former attorney general, in his review of citizenship – has been prompted by concerns that Britain's diverse communities don't unite in a common bond as they do in other countries, such as the United States or France.

Lord Goldsmith acknowledged his plan would "raise particular issues" in Northern Ireland and conceded regional arrangements might have to be made.

"I absolutely expect that there will be scepticism about it," he said. "But there was scepticism about the proposal to have citizenship ceremonies for new applicants, and they have gone extremely well."

The proposal will also prove contentious for the two million or so avowed republicans in the UK who still consider themselves citizens.

Although Mr Salmond has insisted he is a monarchist, he pointed out that education was a devolved matter and that the proposals would not be considered in Scotland.

In Wales, the sentiments were the same. Ieuan Wyn Jones, the deputy first minister, said the proposals were inappropriate.

Meanwhile, a Stormont Assembly member – the Social Democratic and Labour Party representative Dolores Kelly – said that Lord Goldsmith's proposal was "divisive".

Ms Kelly said any form of oath to the Queen would not be appropriate in Northern Ireland. "This proposal would be divisive, dangerous and counter-productive," she said.

The Labour peer Baroness Kennedy gave one of the most devastating assessments of the citizenship ceremonies for teenagers, saying: "The symbols of a healthy democracy are not to be found in empty gestures, and I'm afraid I see this as an empty gesture."

She has admitted that her hostility is partly because she is Scottish.

Liam McArthur, the Scottish Liberal Democrat enterprise spokesman, said the idea was "utter nonsense". He added: "Even at their most jingoistic, the Tories didn't contemplate citizenship ceremonies for all."

Jim Mather, the Scottish enterprise minister, said calls for youngsters to take part in British citizenship ceremonies would be opposed north of the Border.

He argued that the move would be an own-goal for Gordon Brown. The Prime Minister has repeatedly asserted his British credentials.

"We don't support it and neither do the vast majority of parents, teachers and children in Scotland," Mr Mather said.

But for English politicians, the ideas also feel distinctly foreign.

Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, said: "People should not feel that being British is about swearing allegiance; it should be about taking an active role in society. Until people feel they have a genuine say in the system, they will never feel like true citizens."

During a Commons exchange, Nick Herbert, the shadow justice secretary, declared it "profoundly un-British" to demand the public swear oaths of allegiance, subscribe to statements of values, or fly flags on their lawns.

"The public will surely see straight through synthetic patriotism," he predicted.

Lord Goldsmith's review is entitled Citizenship, Our Common Bond. But by the end of yesterday, the only common bond to emerge was near universal hostility to the idea from political parties and teachers.

Many said the ceremonial bells and whistles proposed had nothing to do with Britishness.

The debate about citizenship is as complex as its roots. The concept, however, is not some ancient right, but a relatively modern invention that was introduced through the 1914 British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act.

It gave all those born within "His Majesty's dominions and allegiance" the right to citizenship.

But after the Second World War, the concept had to be reviewed as many of the self-governing dominions developed stronger identities.

Today, there are six categories of citizenship, ranging from British citizens to those who are purely British subjects. Lord Goldsmith admitted that in the past, this variation had led to discrimination against white and black members of overseas communities.

The review proposes to remove the rights of Irish and Commonwealth citizens to vote in UK elections – an idea the Unlock Democracy think-tank has criticised as "pulling up the drawbridge" and forgetting Britain's history.

In 1981, the government rejected the idea that any reform of citizenship should also cover civic rights and responsibilities, as this was "self-evidently an unrealistic aim".

But in 2008, the government would like to make this a condition.

The headline measure – that all teenagers, including those born in the UK, should be made to swear their allegiance to the Queen to foster a sense of belonging – echoes the changes made for new citizens in 2004.

Lord Goldsmith tried to play down suggestions that his proposal was made to counter a crisis of national identity.

He said, however, that research showed "there's been a diminution in national pride – in this sense of belonging".

Mr Brown, who commissioned the report, seemed to give it his approval. His spokesman said the 138-page review contained interesting ideas that would provoke a "lively" debate.

But John Dunford, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said: "Schools will reject it as an un-British idea imported from America, which does not fit into their ethos or culture.

"This is a half-baked idea which should be allowed quietly to go mouldy."

In fact, the report itself isn't entirely British. Among the long list of contributors to it is one Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security in the United States.

HOW DO YOU FEEL?

"I FEEL Scottish because I am Scottish. I was born in Scotland, I work and I live here – what else would I be? The only reason Britishness is such a big issue with Gordon Brown is because he wants to prevent independence at all costs and make himself out to be less Scottish so he can keep his job as Prime Minister.

"I've got a son of 16 and I would discourage him from swearing allegiance. It's nonsense; it's almost a form of Americanisation."

Brian Reynolds, 45, self-employed joiner, West Linton.

"Years ago I would have said I was British without thinking about it. When I was at secondary school, Scottish nationalism was a bit of a joke. But now it makes sense.

"There's been a Renaissance in Scottish literature and films and in other ways which have linked up leaving me feeling more Scottish than British.

"I'd leave it up to the kids to decide what they want to do about the allegiance ceremonies."

Helen MacDonald, 48, IT specialist, Edinburgh.

"I've always described myself as Scottish on official forms. This is a separate country, so why would I want to say I was British? It doesn't feel right to say British.

"I don't need to swear allegiance to make me behave better, thank you very much.

It sounds like something legal, like being in a courtroom and promising to tell the truth."

Kirsty Whyte, 17, nursery nurse, Morningside, Edinburgh.

"My father is English and my mother is Scottish. But I was born here and have always been aware that we are a separate country.

"I can't ever imagine why I would want to describe myself as British unless I was in some far-flung country where no-one had ever heard of Scotland. But considering how well-travelled Scots were in the past, and are now, I can't see that happening. You can't force people to be what they're not; it all seems a bit heavy and politically correct."

Alex Thomson, 28, sales manager, Linlithgow.



The full article contains 1309 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 March 2008 9:32 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

12/03/2008 00:03:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:05:27
1. An excellent start from the nationalists.

Fantastic.
3

AM2™,

Belfast 12/03/2008 00:05:29
Meanwhile, a Stormont Assembly member – the Social Democratic and Labour Party representative Dolores Kelly – said that Lord Goldsmith's proposal was "divisive".

Ms Kelly said any form of oath to the Queen would not be appropriate in Northern Ireland. "This proposal would be divisive, dangerous and counter-productive," she said.

Yes and i agree with her, what a load of bloody crap this brown has come up with.

4

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:08:09
Some reasons to appreciate being British (posted yesterday but promptly hijacked by angry nationalists so I shall post again):

The UK is:

a) 7th in the world by GDP per capita (above the likes of Germany, France and Japan and now reportedly the USA)

b) 6th in the world by GDP per capita by consumption (comparing average living standards),

c) 5th in the world by total GDP (only topped by countries with considerably higher populations) and

d) 6th in the world by total GDP (calculating in the cost of living).

e) 2nd in the world in exported services and 7th in the world in exporting manufactured goods; exporting more in total than the likes of France, Italy and even Japan. Per capita, the UK exports more than Germany too.

An achievement all the more remarkable when considering that we were the strike-ridden and uncompetitive ‘sick man of Europe’ just 25 years ago.

Furthermore:
The UK is the EU's strongest major economy (over the last ten years, GDP growth in the UK has consistently outpaced growth in the European Union and London has been Europe’s top business region for 17 years running) and its second largest net contributor. The UK is also the UN’s 6th largest contributor; is the primary link between the two largest blocs of the EU and the USA; home of one of the world's principal cultures, home of the world's financial capital which is also Europe’s richest region; home of Europe’s largest stock exchange and one of the largest in the world; the OECD noted that the UK has the least barriers to entrepreneurship and the third least barriers to trade and investment in the world; is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe; is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China)...
5

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:09:19
[contd]
In 2006, foreign investment in the UK totalled over $1trillion, the highest in the world after the USA; the UK is the largest single destination globally for US investment and has attracted more US FDI than the combined totals of Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Ireland; the UK is the most popular location for multinationals’ European Headquarters; the UK is the second largest investor overseas with investments/acquisitions by UK companies almost quadrupling in the past ten years (in 2005, UK investment overseas totalled £750 billion); the UK is one of the most productive places for innovation firms in the world, ranking second only to the USA for the quality of its research base; The Economist assessed that the UK has the top six universities in Europe and two of the top three globally; the World Bank ranks the UK first in Europe and sixth in the world to operate a business; has the third largest number of companies in both the FT 500 and the Forbes 2000 lists of the world’s biggest companies after the US and Japan (and more than Germany and France combined); the major UK companies account for the second highest market capitalisation in the world only bettered by the USA; the UK's unemployment rate (using the internationally comparable “standardised” rate) is significantly lower than the European Union average; the UK has one of the lowest government debt levels in the EU…

Scotland's unemployment (measured by the international standard measurement) is at its lowest in 33 years. In the UK, at 5.3%, it is the lowest in 30 years....
6

Helen,

12/03/2008 00:09:19
I'm English and a member of Republic, the organisation which seeks to abolish the monarchy. I cannot believe that anyone could suggest making young people swear an oath of allegiance to someone they've never met, are never likely to meet and have nothing to do with.
The monarchy is an outdated institution which has no place in a democratic society and the sooner we are relieved of it the better for us all.
7

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:10:04
My passport says British, so that will do for me.
8

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:10:17
[contd again]

TOP 20 REASONS WHY COMPANIES DO BUSINESS IN THE UK:
What makes the UK Europe’s leading investment destination for companies relocating and developing their global business? We look at 20 of the top reasons setting the UK apart from other countries.
1. The easiest place to set up and run a business in Europe: The World Bank found that it takes 13 days to set up a business in UK, compared to the European average of 32 days. It ranks the UK first in Europe and sixth in the world to operate a business. Source: World Bank
2. Low tax rate environment for foreign investors: The top corporate rate will be 28 per cent from April 2008, below most of the UK’s core competitors. The UK has reduced its corporate tax rate from over 50% in the early 1980s down to one of the lowest in the industrialised world. The UK’s highest personal tax band, at 40 per cent, is one of the lowest in the EU. Source: Forbes Tax Misery Index.
3. One of the most flexible labour markets in Europe: The World Bank ranks the UK the second best place in Europe to employ workers, just behind Denmark. Source World Bank
4. Least barriers to entrepreneurship in the world: The OECD noted that the UK is second in the world for Product Market Regulation behind Australia, has the least barriers to entrepreneurship in the world and has the third least barriers to trade and investment in the world. Source: OECD
5. World leader in innovation: The UK is one of the most productive places for innovation firms in the world, ranking second only to the USA for the quality of its research base.
6. One of the most stable political environments to do business: According to Transparency International, the UK is one of the most transparent (least corrupt) countries in the world. It has a higher rating than France, Germany, USA and Japan....
9

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:10:50
[contd yet more]
7. Booming economy: The UK has one of the highest GDP growth rates in Europe, well above the European and Eurozone averages. Source: OECD
8. One of the easiest countries to register a property: To register a property, the UK is ranked above France, Germany, Ireland and Italy. Source: Cushamn and Wakefield
9. Commitment to improving the planning regime. The recent Energy White Paper by the Department of Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR), and the Government-commissioned Barker 2 Review of Land-use Planning and Economic Development, outline speedier planning consents for businesses.
10. Speaking in the international language of business: operating in English gives firms in the UK a natural advantage when communicating globally.
11. Progressive communications network: The UK has the most extensive broadband market among the G7 countries and one of the strongest ICT infrastructures in the world.
12. Home to Europe’s number one city for business: London is the world's leading financial services centre on a number of key performance indicators and was voted top European city for business for the 17th year running in 2006 by the European Cities Monitor.
13. Top talent: According to the Times Higher Education Supplement (THES), the UK has the top six universities in Europe and two of the top three globally. Source: The Times.
10

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:11:21
[contd]
14. Springboard to Europe: The UK is the number one gateway to Europe giving easy access to the 27 member states of the European Union, the world's largest single market, with its population of nearly 500 million.
15. Number one location for European headquarters: More overseas companies set up their European headquarters in the UK than anywhere else.
16. Olympic opportunities: London will host the Olympic Games in 2012. Procurement started in 2007. Contracts will be available for firms of all sizes and the total budget will run into billions.
17. Outstanding transport links: The UK offers a world-class transport network offering rapid links to mainland Europe and the rest of the world. Heathrow is Europe's largest air hub, with ongoing expansions improving its efficiency. London boasts one of the world's largest overground and underground rail networks.
18. High quality of living: UK residents enjoy a high standard of living, education and recreation. Personal taxes are low, publicly-funded health is free to all and there is a rich cultural heritage and abundance of leisure facilities.
19. Magnet for foreign investment: In 2006, the UK attracted and retained over one trillion US dollars of investment: the highest in Europe and the second largest in the world.
20. Productivity rapidly increasing: Historically, the UK had lower productivity than its main competitors, but this is changing and the UK has closed the gap with many countries and overtaken others.
11

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:11:32
The monarchy is a modern day institution which has every place in a democratic society, and the sooner we we appreciate that fact, then the better for us all.
12

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:11:41
That's it. I'm going to bed.
13

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:12:06
#1,

AM2 is talking with new clarity and for once you canny argue against his point!

Back on topic, it's clear there's no such thing as Britishness outwith the sewing circle, Sunday post reading, shortbread eating, tea drinking, blue rinse brigade!

Oh, and the hardcore Glasgow Rangers support!

People with loyalty to the WW2 sense of Britishness, are now disappearing, and the future is solely one of loyalty towards the sense of Scottishness!
14

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:15:28
With Scottish waters consisting of a large sector of the North Atlantic and the North Sea, containing the largest oil resources in the European Union - Scotland is the EU's largest petroleum producer, with the discovery of North Sea oil transforming the Scottish economy. Oil was discovered in the North Sea in 1966, with the first year of full production taking place in 1976. With the growth of oil exploration during that time, as well as the ancillary industries needed to support it, the city of Aberdeen became centre of the North Sea Oil Industry, which it still is today, with the port and harbour serving many oil fields off shore. Sullom Voe in Shetland is the site of a major oil terminal, where oil is piped in and transferred to tankers. Similarly the Flotta Oil Terminal in Orkney is linked by a 230 km long pipeline to the Piper and Occidental oil fields in the North Sea [6]. Grangemouth is at the centre of Scotland's petrochemicals industry. The oil related industries are a major source of employment and income in these regions. It is estimated that the industry employs around 100,000 workers (or 6% of the working population) of Scotland [7].

Whilst in recent years, North Sea oil production has been in decline, it is estimated that there are reserves of two billion tonnes in the North Sea - as much as has been produced in the last 25 years, with most oil fields being expected to remain economically viable until at least 2020 [8]. Recently with the prevailing high oil price, there has been a resurgence in oil exploration, specifically in the North East Atlantic basin to the west of Shetland and the Outer Hebrides, in areas that were previously considered marginal and unprofitable
15

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:16:54
Evidence unearthed in late 2005 under the Freedom of Information Act has shown significant UK government concerns over the rising tide of Scottish Nationalism during the early part of the 1970s and the consequences that this may have had upon ownership and control over the UK's North Sea resources. A report written by the Scottish Office economist Gavin McCrone for ministers[16] in the mid-1970s indicated that with ownership of North Sea oil, an independent Scotland would have "embarrassingly large tax surpluses"[17], that the economy of an independent Scotland, with control over the majority of UK North Sea oil revenue would have the one of the "hardest" currencies in Europe and that "for the first time since the Act Of Union was passed, it can now be credibly argued that Scotland's economic advantage lies in its repeal
16

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:16:57
AJ Fife how is it clear that there is no such thing as Britishness............

Remind me again, what percentage of the vote last May 3rd went to Unionist parties?

Outwith your small mind, the union is as strong as ever.


17

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:18:54
The first monthly fall in house prices this year was reported yesterday, fuelling fears that a looming downturn in the property market will hit the economy hard next year.

In the latest sign that the housing market is now rapidly losing steam, Halifax, Britain’s biggest mortgage lender, said its regular survey showed that average national house prices fell by 0.6 per cent in September, marking their first monthly fall since December.

The gloomy news for homeowners squeezed by higher interest rates comes as Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, today concedes for the first time that the economy’s prospects will be dealt a blow by the global credit squeeze, forcing him to downgrade his forecasts for growth next year
18

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:19:48
cont

ow expected as soon as Monday, he will be forced to markedly scale back the Treasury’s present forecast for economic growth of between 2.5 to 3 per cent next year, to perhaps as little as 2 per cent.
19

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:21:08
Britain's education system is perpetuating social divisions, according to a report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

The Paris-based group has warned that the disappointing state of the schools system could leave the economy flagging in the years ahead.

The report said Government targets for schools had back-fired and may have harmed pupils' education.

advertisement
The target for teenagers to score five C grades or more in their GCSEs led schools to push children into "easier" vocational courses, the OECD said. As a result, many schools did not focus on the key subjects of English and maths.

The organisation also said that despite hundreds of billions of extra pounds spent by Labour, the money was not reaching the schools that most needed it
20

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:21:49
Oh yes , Great Britain is erm, pathetic..
21

,

12/03/2008 00:22:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:22:29
One more mini-speech in support of the British identity:

The United Kingdom gave the world the first example of human rights in the Magna Carta plus modern democracy, the English Language, Common Law and even the first nationalised health services.

We invented most of the sports now played at international level; football, cricket, rugby, tennis, golf, darts, snooker et al..

We pretty much invented mechanical transport through the railways, steam engines, jet engines, electric engines, the internal combustion engine, the screw propeller, the gas turbine and even the bicycle.

We even beat the Wright Brothers to powered flight ("The world's first powered flight took place not in America in 1903, but at Chard in Somerset in 1848 by John Stringfellow." - British Embassies website)

Of course, we also industrialised the world! If it wasn’t for us, the mighty USA would still be travelling on horseback, moving goods by wagon and using slaves to pick their crops.

We invented mass communication through the printed word, radio, television and taken it truly global with the computer and the Web.

Many world-famous writers and poets lived and wrote in the United Kingdom including Geoffrey Chaucer, Thomas Malory and Geoffrey of Monmouth, Jane Austen (often credited with inventing the modern novel), Thackeray, Charles Dickens, the Brontë sisters, Thomas Hardy, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Anthony Trollope, H. G. Wells, D. H. Lawrence, Virginia Woolf, EM Forster, George Orwell and Graham Greene made contributions. J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings became one of the best-selling books of all time. More recently, Ian McEwan, Martin Amis and Zadie Smith were among those gaining recognition, and each new book by J. K. Rowling earned worldwide headlines.

And then there is Shakespeare.

The UK also produced innumerable scholars, scientists and engineers including Sir Isaac Newton, Bertrand Russell, Adam Smith, James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin, Sir Hump
23

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:22:48
Scotland is better off without the Uk as my posts have shown, i now rest.
24

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:25:07
[contd]
The UK also produced innumerable scholars, scientists and engineers including Sir Isaac Newton, Bertrand Russell, Adam Smith, James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin, Sir Humphry Davy, Joseph John Thomson, Sir Ronald Aylmer Fisher, Michael Faraday, Charles Darwin, Alexander Fleming, Francis Crick, Sir Joseph William Bazalgette and Isambard Kingdom Brunel. John Maynard Keynes devised the very economic theory that has given the USA its current wealth.

The UK cracked the mysteries of the atom, gravity and DNA.

And the Enigma code!

We were co-founders of the United Nations, the International Criminal Court, NATO and, of course, we are the founder of the global Commonwealth. We are key members of the EU and G8 (indirectly) setting trade and economic policy around the world.

We are the home of the global Anglican faith.

We have one of the most powerful armed forces in the world and the most powerful in Europe, one of the few countries that can independently defend itself if necessary.

London is the financial capital of the world, trading more dollars than Wall Street, and more Euro's than Frankfurt and Paris combined. Edinburgh is the UK's second financial city.
25

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:27:15
Der Fuhrer,

I know plenty of Tory, Labour and Libdem voters who consider themselves Scottish over British! The sense of Britishness began to die the day WW2 ended!

I suspect even a small minded moron like yourself, already knows that!
26

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:28:11
In all three countries a majority chose the national identity appropriate to the place of interview: 80% chose Scottish in Scotland, 62% Welsh in Wales, and 57% English in England.
People living in England are more likely to describe themselves as British (48%) than those in Scotland (27%) or Wales (35%).

31% described themselves only as British, with 13% choosing a combination of British and either English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. 4% gave an 'other' identity; 1% gave other combinations.

Older people were less likely to describe themselves as British; 36% of those aged 65 and over described themselves as British, compared with 47-52% of people aged less than 55.

People in London were the most likely to describe themselves as having an 'other' national identity; 19% compared with 2-5% in other areas of England, Scotland or Wales
27

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:28:54
British? pull the other one
28

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:31:29
22. For some astonishing reason, this little list is missing from our authors: Iain Banks, J. M. Barrie, Christopher Brookmyre, John Buchan, Robert Burns, R. B. Cunninghame Graham, Arthur Conan Doyle, Janice Galloway, Lewis Grassic Gibbon, Alasdair Gray, James Hogg, James Kelman, Jessie Kesson, Liz Lochead, Hugh MacDiarmid, William McIlvanney, Compton MacKenzie, Sorley MacLean, Edwin Morgan, Neil Munro, Ian Rankin, Walter Scott, Muriel Spark, Robert Louis Stevenson and Irvine Welsh.

Between us all, is there anything we DIDN'T write or invent?
29

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:31:31
Der Fuhrer,

Have a wee look at AM2's post no26, for a clear understanding of what "Britishness" now means to people!

btw, I like the new AM2. I knew he'd come round in the end!
30

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:32:06
Britain is less happy than in the 1950s - despite the fact that we are a bit richer.

The proportion of people saying they are "very happy" has fallen from 52% in 1957 to just 36% today.

The opinion poll by GfK NOP for The Happiness Formula series on BBC Two provides the first evidence that Britain's happiness levels are declining - a trend already well documented in the United States
31

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 12/03/2008 00:32:41
9
Highland Mighty,
1
--------------------------------------

Hey Dude . It seems to me U are a fan of CUT and PASTE.

Technically isn't that called plagiarism.

Another Dude, uses that method frequently . Normad57
But he believes he is a KNOW ALL.. the poor guy.

GC
32

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:33:54
#29 , I have copied that post onto my disk and it will appear later on in the day as this and my other posts may be deleted.

I speak the truth
33

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:36:48
Richard Taylor, father of the murdered Peckham schoolboy Damilola, says Britain is suffering a moral decline.

He is angry at the "wall of silence" after his son's murder, and blames the murder and the failure to find the attackers on falling family values and morals.

Richard Taylor says he wants the UK to be morally regenerated in memory of his ten year old son.

34

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:39:15
AM2#32,

I know you speak the truth man, but that aint the Hootsman's style!

The Hootsman's Truth Police will be onto you already, and you'll be zapped by the time I clock back on at 9!
35

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:39:30
OVER the past fifty years, the world has seen Great Britain lose much of its greatness. This article is referring to the ability of Great Britain to be a world player in the political and economic sphere. Britain's decline may be seen by the erosion of the Empire; the remaining part of the Empire is under threat as shown by possible joint rule over Gibraltar with Spain. It may also be seen in its relative economic decline, loss of international prestige, especially pre-Margaret Thatcher, and loss of internal social cohesion. These along with other factors and challenges have led to Great Britain losing power at the political and economic level
36

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 00:41:31
just the very light way people now feel comfortable being scots , the people who feel sooo british shouldnt worry we wont be banning the sentimental attachement you have for britain , solway and tweed will just be rivers still , your english granny is our treasured guest still . we dont hate you . we want you to come along on the journey we ARE going to make ,i hope it will make you happy, despite what you feel it will mean, when we finally get there
37

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:44:24
I also consider myself Scottish over British, very much so, but this subtracts nothing from my preference to belong to a major country, with its major economy and strong international voice, as opposed to the nationalist dream of being just another one of the world's 'small anonymous countries'.

The UK is unique in the world in consisting of four countries. For citizens to declare their identity to their respective countries over being 'British' is clearly not any indicator of the imminent destruction of the UK, as the SNP and its angry mob frequently claims, just an acknowledgement of our respective heritages.
38

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:44:45
And whereas it hath beene found by experience that it is inconsistent with the safety and welfaire of
this protestant kingdome to be governed by a popish prince or by any King or Queene marrying a
papist the said lords spirituall and temporall and commons doe further pray that it may be enacted that
all and every person and persons that is are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold communion with the
see or church of Rome or shall professe the popish religion or shall marry a papist shall be excluded
and be for ever uncapeable to inherit possesse or enjoy the crowne and government of this realme and
Ireland and the dominions thereunto belonging or any part of the same or to have use or exercise any
regall power authoritie or jurisdiction within the same…
The Act appears to prevent Catholics from becoming the spouse to the monarch

The British Royal family
39

subrosa,

12/03/2008 00:49:24
I might want this you know. More and more, when I go round the local Tesco, I wonder what country I'm in.
40

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:50:07
19. Haven't you heard? According to 'Foulkes the Cybernat', the OECD is riddled with corruption and is a well-known money launderer for organised crime. I kid you not.
41

AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:50:18
Last week the government confirmed it was open to redesigning the union flag, and now it's looking at overhauling the national anthem. Clearly nothing is sacred in Gordon Brown's ongoing quest to establish a vision.

Apparently the problem with God Save the Queen is that some of its lyrics are not "inclusive", says the former attorney general Lord Goldsmith, who is leading a citizenship review for the prime minister.

"Some people have suggested we might think about whether there are different words that might be put in place which would be more inclusive," he told Sky News today.

The chances are this comment will be rather baffling to the majority of the population who are only familiar with the first verse of the anthem. The two-verse version, now accepted as the standard, seems unlikely to upset anyone bar the most ardent republican.

Clues to why the anthem has proved so objectionable can be found on the British Monarchy website. It states that the anthem, which may date back to the 17th century, was first performed in public in September 1745 to drum up patriotic fervour among the English after Bonnie Prince Charlie defeated the army of King George II near Edinburgh.

A longer version of the anthem reveals its anti-Scottish sentiments, which may well explain why it displeases the New Labour hierachy. The sixth and final verse goes
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:50:49
cont

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

The second verse of this longer version has apparently long attracted the ire of the Welsh - especially when played at sporting events. The verse goes:

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

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AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:52:16
Well that is being British for you
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 00:53:26
er , didnt that dr david kelly get found on snowdon toooo?????
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:56:15
Just in case my posts are removed i have saved them on my disk and shall post them under a new moniker later on today.
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:57:10
AM2™, is this you?

http://image.guardian.co.uk/artsblog/authorpics/david_batty.jpg

I have to say, the surname is quite apt!
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:58:15
Hmm, what to make of this?

Welcome to anthem4england - a website for all those English people that are heartily fed up of God Save the Queen being used as the English national anthem. For some English people English identity is coterminous with British identity. These people puzzle us; what are they thinking when the Scots and Welsh sing their anthems with gusto and then boo God Save the Queen; have they not noticed that since devolution the Scots and Welsh now govern themselves (and us), and; do they realise that English nationalism and self-awareness is resurgent, the St George's Cross having displaced the Union Flag in the affections of most English people
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:58:18
Highland Mighty

I think you should close the encyclopaedia now. We're not interested anymore.

Merely quoting a whole load of economic stats and historical information doesn't make you feel British. I could spend all morning quoting things that give us no pride in being British, e.g. our past colonialism and most things that went with it, but again, that would be missing the point. Read again the four people that were interviewed above. Their sense of identity is more personal and far truer than the four thousand or so words that you've written.
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 00:59:45
#47..Yes that is me with my specks on
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 01:02:16
#12Highland Mighty,12/03/2008 00:11:41
That's it. I'm going to bed.


You see he just has to have the last word and is in a spin when he is knocked down to earth by my self
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12/03/2008 01:02:18
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 01:03:01
Im up all night on this thread, my juices are flowing
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 01:04:48
blimp old chap , i like scots people , so my patience wasnt feigned . unionists are a busted flush they just havent "got it" YET . we will need all our energy to combat the b b c spearheaded fightback that gordon brown has ordered . it really IS time dont y'know
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12/03/2008 01:06:54
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 01:08:39
Margaret Thatcher/News Night Dec 2005.

However, the British anthem should not be sung by the English as an English anthem. It may be politically convenient for the UK Government to encourage Scottishness and Welshness whilst keeping Britishness to the fore in England but it serves neither Britain nor the monarchy to do so. Not only that but it is disrespectful to England, Scotland and Wales to conflate England with Britain in this way; for England is a nation every bit as much as Scotland and Wales
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,

12/03/2008 01:09:00
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 01:10:23
#56 Okay you have a point but all of my posts will be posted later on under a new moniker, this british thing sucks
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AM2™,

12/03/2008 01:14:17
I will now go and start on my Farfoods list for later on, a big day ahead of me and i have to sign on at 1pm.

I now rest. Alba Grunt.
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tree,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 01:18:39
"I also consider myself Scottish over British, very much so, but this subtracts nothing from my preference to belong to a major country..." - Highland Mighty

Highland Mighty - here are the choices of countries: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. There is no point hankering after Britain as a country. Last time I checked, Britain is an island and there is no such country as Great Britain, the U.K. the United Kingdom or any other term we attribute to our collection of countries. I think it bizarre that a British team goes to the Olympic games instead of each country sending their own team.

And since when wasn't Scotland a major country? I didn't notice any oil reserves waiting to be tapped off England's shore recently. Take a look at the statistics. In case you haven't noticed, we English are colonising your country in droves, desperate to get away from sub standard education and hospital care, terrible weather and public transport and infrastructure that has more in common with a badly run third world country than a first world country.

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,

12/03/2008 01:22:21
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12/03/2008 01:23:14
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tree,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 01:24:36
On the subject of anthems, AM2, I don't think the English do sing the British anthem, i.e. God Save the Queen, as the English anthem. I'm born in England, and last time I checked, the English anthem (should be "Jerusalem" - a much better choice) is "Land of Hope and Glory".
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Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 01:35:01
Peev
I am not a subject.Neither am I a citizen.
If a second cousin of Liz decides to go shopping in Edinburgh traffic is stopped.Police are used as traffic wardens...who pays for this?
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britsout,

treehugger 12/03/2008 01:40:50
i think a song written by william blake would be a smashing choice for england . a new begining . but im a scot so wouldnt presume , all the best for the future, we'll write
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 01:52:08
by the way my real name is britfree but a cookie sweeper did something i didnt understand and i became the slightly more negative sounding britsout. and on more nakedly geo political sites im less temperate and a disavower of brittishness AND THE REST
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Miss Jean Brodie,

12/03/2008 01:56:19
There has been no Queen Elizabeth of Scotland?
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Guga II,

Rockall 12/03/2008 01:56:57
It will be a cold day in hell before I would ever call myself "British". I am Scottish, I always have been, and I always will be. England is a foreign country.

This is another example of the colonial mentality of the English, trying to get us all to swear allegiance to a foreign monarch.

When Scotland regains its independence, the first thing we need to do is become a republic, and have nothing to do with any foreign parasites.
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Navvy,

12/03/2008 02:10:22
#71

Our traditional usage is Queen/King of Scots and not of Scotland
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Reekin' Lum,

12/03/2008 02:19:38
#72-quite right! Scottish first and always. This "British" rubbish is annoying and used usually by the English- British is English- Union Jack is English.

All this rubbish to be over soon when we terminate this "union".
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Reekin' Lum,

12/03/2008 02:21:18
#71 - there is, technically, a Queen Elizabeth of Scotland - the FIRST and only one we have had, if you recognize these people in the first place.

But don't worry, they will be long gone soon.
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Navvy,

12/03/2008 02:21:26
We seem to have strayed from the article

The notion of an oath or pledge does seem un-British
If Lord Goldsmith seeks to instil a sense of pride why not emulate the Scandanavians and fly the flag in our gardens - mostly in the summer would be best when more people are out and about.

But make sure that tehy are clean and not frayed.

We have such a choice, the Union Flag, it's three patron saints flags and poor old St David can have the Welsh Dragon

I have no difficulty with being both Scots and British. The British bit started with the Union and was built along with the Empire by Scots out of all proportion to our numbers. Let us take pride in our achievement.

Those more recent citizens should just be British. After a generation or so they may feel that they are also Scots or welsh or whateffer as well.

It is a thorny one. I look and listen askance at some who claim to be Scots when their name clearly denotes otherwise. To the best of my research I am of pure, mongrel, Scots descent on both sides - Pict Scot Norse and Angle.

One one level one should claim what one feels but what happens if that is not endorsed by ones neighbours?
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gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 02:31:45
Couldn't help noticing The EBC1 6pm 'National' News illustrated this story about a BRITISH oath of loyalty with a shot of the ENGLAND rugby team.

Was this deliberate or are they just stupid and consider England and Britain to be the same thing?
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Castaway,

12/03/2008 02:57:39
In 1966 didn't England win the FIFA World Cup for Britain ?
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thewitness,

12/03/2008 03:19:21


The queen is 2nd to the square mile of concrete run by communist trash and called the city of London. They are the power not the Queen.

Bank Of England = Zionists = Riff-raff

Keep the Queen, scrap the Bank.
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12/03/2008 03:47:13
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12/03/2008 03:49:32
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Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 03:57:19
What an utterly ridiculous 'initiave'

Swearing allegence to any country whacks of flag waving dixie yankism. In Britain it would be a superficial gesture.

This would do nothing to abait the threat of terrorism.

It is quite obviously a political manouvre.

Tell em where to stick it Alex, you can't ram Britishness or Scottishness down peoples throats. We live in an enlightened pro-choice age, allegedly.

God, I hate the Labour Party
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jamtart,

Beechboro Wester Australia 12/03/2008 04:03:57
I was born in Scotland and proud to be so.Since moving to Australia I have become an Australian Citizen and as such have swore to uphold the laws and values of this great country and am also proud to have my nationality shown on my passport as Australian.A sworn oath to Great Britain(read England) no no no not ever and no real Scot ever will consider it.I do have great respect for her Majesty the Queen and her immediate family,but as for the hangers on GTTF.
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Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 04:22:42
Jamtart -

I would agree that it is entirely reasonable to swear allegance to a new country that you have moved to, but this is another kettle of fish - getting kiddies to swear allegance!

I don't think it is unreasonable for a new emigrant in Britain to state some form allegenace to the country they have moved to - technically at the moment Britain (regardless of whither you feel Scottish or British)

What is being proposed is completely different to what you had to swear - it's brainwashing kids into a political union.

As a nationalist I do not feel compromised by recognising we are currently in a union with the other countries of the UK. The people of Scotland are free to choose their own destiny. (It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth that unionist governments have suppressed the truth, in a concerted fashion, about Scotland's financial position and seek to bolster 'Britishness' by getting 15 year old kids to swear allegance to the Union Jack)

It's not about security it's a feeble political initiave.
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John Ruther,

West Pennant Hills 12/03/2008 04:44:32
Iam a Scot. Am probably also "prettanic" in a Pictish sense. But I am not "english" or Anglo-Saxon"
. Most definitely the English are not British.

I thought I should just mention this for Mr Goldsmith
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Peter Kidd,

China 12/03/2008 05:43:06
I am Scottish and have worked and lived in many countries, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and am currently teaching at a University in China.
In most of these countries and countries of the world its citizens view the Union Jack, The UK, the Queen and all royalty and the word "British" as English- from England.
The "Act Of The Union" was supposed to be a treaty amongst COUNTRIES of Britain, to be equal in all things and respect each others sovereignty and culture. The English for centuries have been putting themselves first and renegading on the treaty, thus robbing us of our unique identity. Most of the time Scotland has no say in how the country of "The United Kingdom" is run. You just have to look at the Thatcher years when the majority of Scotland did not vote for her. Until recently Scotland felt like-and was treated as second class citizens.Its about time that we as a nation took responsibility of our own destiny. Scotland has given so much to the world and the English have taken all the credit. You'll find the world will welcome us with open arms.
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Peter Kidd,

China 12/03/2008 05:56:43
And another thing. How can Queen Elizabeth the SECOND be Queen of the United Kingdom when the United Kingdom has never had a Queen Elizabeth the FIRST. For you arrogant English, King James the FIRST of the United Kingdom was also known as King James the SIXTH of Scotland. Us Scots might be naive but we DON'T forget!!
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Richardinho,

12/03/2008 05:57:39
It wont be introduced in Scotland as we have a separate education system, It wont be introduced in Northern Ireland because it would be 'divisive' (understatement of the year), Wales not mentioned, but let's face it, they're not going to like this either.

So in short, the only country that would swear this oath would be England.

Bringing us together?
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donald,

glasgow 12/03/2008 06:20:30
Only the Anglican Orange Order,the Loyalist Celtic Board and the Labour and conservative unionist Party will stand for this.
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GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 12/03/2008 06:20:43
.Scottish or British – a question of allegiance
------------------------------------------
Dudes ,
Oats or Pledges of allegiance's do nothing more than create international division, and fanatical nationalism in the minds of the very young people.

We have an example of that type of mind conditioning in my country, where ALL school children must pledge Allegiance to the Flag, every day they attend school.

Here is the REAL pledge of allegiance

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

But once again, the religious freaks had it changed to include the word DOG sorry I mean GOD .
So the present fake re-done version reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Even in the US religions are a main source of mind evil.
And trust in DOG (GOD) is paramount in the minds of the under educated masses.

Don't copy us Americans with pledges of allegiance.
Do copy our leadership in High Tech. Knowledge and Science

GC
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PL,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 06:24:35
The lead story in The Times:

SCOTS LEAD REBELLION AGAINST OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

! Scottish Labour will never generate headlines like that.
It's exciting to have a real Scottish government after a decade of puppetry and mediocre nonentities.
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Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/03/2008 06:27:19
Daftest suggestion since Broon said we should fly Union Flags in oor front gairdens.

Oath of allegiance to the Queen ? Believe it or not Broon wrote a biography of Jimmy Maxton. How far he's travelled to the right...
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Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/03/2008 06:29:27
82 MacAlba - "Communist trash", the greatest Scotsman of the 20th century - C.M. Grieve - was a communist, and of course a nationalist.