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Scottish or British – a question of allegiance

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Published Date:
12 March 2008
IT WAS supposed to ease tensions within multi-cultural Britain, helping diverse communities to heal divisions caused by the terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow.
But a proposal to make Britain's teenagers pledge an oath of allegiance to the Queen was immediately dismissed by Alex Salmond, the First Minister, as "Monty Python-esque" – a description which captured the Anglo-centric origin of the idea, as well a
t the contempt with which it is likely to be viewed north of the Border.

The plan – put forward by Lord Goldsmith, the former attorney general, in his review of citizenship – has been prompted by concerns that Britain's diverse communities don't unite in a common bond as they do in other countries, such as the United States or France.

Lord Goldsmith acknowledged his plan would "raise particular issues" in Northern Ireland and conceded regional arrangements might have to be made.

"I absolutely expect that there will be scepticism about it," he said. "But there was scepticism about the proposal to have citizenship ceremonies for new applicants, and they have gone extremely well."

The proposal will also prove contentious for the two million or so avowed republicans in the UK who still consider themselves citizens.

Although Mr Salmond has insisted he is a monarchist, he pointed out that education was a devolved matter and that the proposals would not be considered in Scotland.

In Wales, the sentiments were the same. Ieuan Wyn Jones, the deputy first minister, said the proposals were inappropriate.

Meanwhile, a Stormont Assembly member – the Social Democratic and Labour Party representative Dolores Kelly – said that Lord Goldsmith's proposal was "divisive".

Ms Kelly said any form of oath to the Queen would not be appropriate in Northern Ireland. "This proposal would be divisive, dangerous and counter-productive," she said.

The Labour peer Baroness Kennedy gave one of the most devastating assessments of the citizenship ceremonies for teenagers, saying: "The symbols of a healthy democracy are not to be found in empty gestures, and I'm afraid I see this as an empty gesture."

She has admitted that her hostility is partly because she is Scottish.

Liam McArthur, the Scottish Liberal Democrat enterprise spokesman, said the idea was "utter nonsense". He added: "Even at their most jingoistic, the Tories didn't contemplate citizenship ceremonies for all."

Jim Mather, the Scottish enterprise minister, said calls for youngsters to take part in British citizenship ceremonies would be opposed north of the Border.

He argued that the move would be an own-goal for Gordon Brown. The Prime Minister has repeatedly asserted his British credentials.

"We don't support it and neither do the vast majority of parents, teachers and children in Scotland," Mr Mather said.

But for English politicians, the ideas also feel distinctly foreign.

Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, said: "People should not feel that being British is about swearing allegiance; it should be about taking an active role in society. Until people feel they have a genuine say in the system, they will never feel like true citizens."

During a Commons exchange, Nick Herbert, the shadow justice secretary, declared it "profoundly un-British" to demand the public swear oaths of allegiance, subscribe to statements of values, or fly flags on their lawns.

"The public will surely see straight through synthetic patriotism," he predicted.

Lord Goldsmith's review is entitled Citizenship, Our Common Bond. But by the end of yesterday, the only common bond to emerge was near universal hostility to the idea from political parties and teachers.

Many said the ceremonial bells and whistles proposed had nothing to do with Britishness.

The debate about citizenship is as complex as its roots. The concept, however, is not some ancient right, but a relatively modern invention that was introduced through the 1914 British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act.

It gave all those born within "His Majesty's dominions and allegiance" the right to citizenship.

But after the Second World War, the concept had to be reviewed as many of the self-governing dominions developed stronger identities.

Today, there are six categories of citizenship, ranging from British citizens to those who are purely British subjects. Lord Goldsmith admitted that in the past, this variation had led to discrimination against white and black members of overseas communities.

The review proposes to remove the rights of Irish and Commonwealth citizens to vote in UK elections – an idea the Unlock Democracy think-tank has criticised as "pulling up the drawbridge" and forgetting Britain's history.

In 1981, the government rejected the idea that any reform of citizenship should also cover civic rights and responsibilities, as this was "self-evidently an unrealistic aim".

But in 2008, the government would like to make this a condition.

The headline measure – that all teenagers, including those born in the UK, should be made to swear their allegiance to the Queen to foster a sense of belonging – echoes the changes made for new citizens in 2004.

Lord Goldsmith tried to play down suggestions that his proposal was made to counter a crisis of national identity.

He said, however, that research showed "there's been a diminution in national pride – in this sense of belonging".

Mr Brown, who commissioned the report, seemed to give it his approval. His spokesman said the 138-page review contained interesting ideas that would provoke a "lively" debate.

But John Dunford, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said: "Schools will reject it as an un-British idea imported from America, which does not fit into their ethos or culture.

"This is a half-baked idea which should be allowed quietly to go mouldy."

In fact, the report itself isn't entirely British. Among the long list of contributors to it is one Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security in the United States.

HOW DO YOU FEEL?

"I FEEL Scottish because I am Scottish. I was born in Scotland, I work and I live here – what else would I be? The only reason Britishness is such a big issue with Gordon Brown is because he wants to prevent independence at all costs and make himself out to be less Scottish so he can keep his job as Prime Minister.

"I've got a son of 16 and I would discourage him from swearing allegiance. It's nonsense; it's almost a form of Americanisation."

Brian Reynolds, 45, self-employed joiner, West Linton.

"Years ago I would have said I was British without thinking about it. When I was at secondary school, Scottish nationalism was a bit of a joke. But now it makes sense.

"There's been a Renaissance in Scottish literature and films and in other ways which have linked up leaving me feeling more Scottish than British.

"I'd leave it up to the kids to decide what they want to do about the allegiance ceremonies."

Helen MacDonald, 48, IT specialist, Edinburgh.

"I've always described myself as Scottish on official forms. This is a separate country, so why would I want to say I was British? It doesn't feel right to say British.

"I don't need to swear allegiance to make me behave better, thank you very much.

It sounds like something legal, like being in a courtroom and promising to tell the truth."

Kirsty Whyte, 17, nursery nurse, Morningside, Edinburgh.

"My father is English and my mother is Scottish. But I was born here and have always been aware that we are a separate country.

"I can't ever imagine why I would want to describe myself as British unless I was in some far-flung country where no-one had ever heard of Scotland. But considering how well-travelled Scots were in the past, and are now, I can't see that happening. You can't force people to be what they're not; it all seems a bit heavy and politically correct."

Alex Thomson, 28, sales manager, Linlithgow.



The full article contains 1309 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 March 2008 9:32 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
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12/03/2008 00:03:04
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:05:27
1. An excellent start from the nationalists.

Fantastic.
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12/03/2008 00:05:29
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:08:09
Some reasons to appreciate being British (posted yesterday but promptly hijacked by angry nationalists so I shall post again):

The UK is:

a) 7th in the world by GDP per capita (above the likes of Germany, France and Japan and now reportedly the USA)

b) 6th in the world by GDP per capita by consumption (comparing average living standards),

c) 5th in the world by total GDP (only topped by countries with considerably higher populations) and

d) 6th in the world by total GDP (calculating in the cost of living).

e) 2nd in the world in exported services and 7th in the world in exporting manufactured goods; exporting more in total than the likes of France, Italy and even Japan. Per capita, the UK exports more than Germany too.

An achievement all the more remarkable when considering that we were the strike-ridden and uncompetitive ‘sick man of Europe’ just 25 years ago.

Furthermore:
The UK is the EU's strongest major economy (over the last ten years, GDP growth in the UK has consistently outpaced growth in the European Union and London has been Europe’s top business region for 17 years running) and its second largest net contributor. The UK is also the UN’s 6th largest contributor; is the primary link between the two largest blocs of the EU and the USA; home of one of the world's principal cultures, home of the world's financial capital which is also Europe’s richest region; home of Europe’s largest stock exchange and one of the largest in the world; the OECD noted that the UK has the least barriers to entrepreneurship and the third least barriers to trade and investment in the world; is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe; is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China)...
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:09:19
[contd]
In 2006, foreign investment in the UK totalled over $1trillion, the highest in the world after the USA; the UK is the largest single destination globally for US investment and has attracted more US FDI than the combined totals of Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Ireland; the UK is the most popular location for multinationals’ European Headquarters; the UK is the second largest investor overseas with investments/acquisitions by UK companies almost quadrupling in the past ten years (in 2005, UK investment overseas totalled £750 billion); the UK is one of the most productive places for innovation firms in the world, ranking second only to the USA for the quality of its research base; The Economist assessed that the UK has the top six universities in Europe and two of the top three globally; the World Bank ranks the UK first in Europe and sixth in the world to operate a business; has the third largest number of companies in both the FT 500 and the Forbes 2000 lists of the world’s biggest companies after the US and Japan (and more than Germany and France combined); the major UK companies account for the second highest market capitalisation in the world only bettered by the USA; the UK's unemployment rate (using the internationally comparable “standardised” rate) is significantly lower than the European Union average; the UK has one of the lowest government debt levels in the EU…

Scotland's unemployment (measured by the international standard measurement) is at its lowest in 33 years. In the UK, at 5.3%, it is the lowest in 30 years....
6

Helen,

12/03/2008 00:09:19
I'm English and a member of Republic, the organisation which seeks to abolish the monarchy. I cannot believe that anyone could suggest making young people swear an oath of allegiance to someone they've never met, are never likely to meet and have nothing to do with.
The monarchy is an outdated institution which has no place in a democratic society and the sooner we are relieved of it the better for us all.
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DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:10:04
My passport says British, so that will do for me.
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:10:17
[contd again]

TOP 20 REASONS WHY COMPANIES DO BUSINESS IN THE UK:
What makes the UK Europe’s leading investment destination for companies relocating and developing their global business? We look at 20 of the top reasons setting the UK apart from other countries.
1. The easiest place to set up and run a business in Europe: The World Bank found that it takes 13 days to set up a business in UK, compared to the European average of 32 days. It ranks the UK first in Europe and sixth in the world to operate a business. Source: World Bank
2. Low tax rate environment for foreign investors: The top corporate rate will be 28 per cent from April 2008, below most of the UK’s core competitors. The UK has reduced its corporate tax rate from over 50% in the early 1980s down to one of the lowest in the industrialised world. The UK’s highest personal tax band, at 40 per cent, is one of the lowest in the EU. Source: Forbes Tax Misery Index.
3. One of the most flexible labour markets in Europe: The World Bank ranks the UK the second best place in Europe to employ workers, just behind Denmark. Source World Bank
4. Least barriers to entrepreneurship in the world: The OECD noted that the UK is second in the world for Product Market Regulation behind Australia, has the least barriers to entrepreneurship in the world and has the third least barriers to trade and investment in the world. Source: OECD
5. World leader in innovation: The UK is one of the most productive places for innovation firms in the world, ranking second only to the USA for the quality of its research base.
6. One of the most stable political environments to do business: According to Transparency International, the UK is one of the most transparent (least corrupt) countries in the world. It has a higher rating than France, Germany, USA and Japan....
9

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:10:50
[contd yet more]
7. Booming economy: The UK has one of the highest GDP growth rates in Europe, well above the European and Eurozone averages. Source: OECD
8. One of the easiest countries to register a property: To register a property, the UK is ranked above France, Germany, Ireland and Italy. Source: Cushamn and Wakefield
9. Commitment to improving the planning regime. The recent Energy White Paper by the Department of Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR), and the Government-commissioned Barker 2 Review of Land-use Planning and Economic Development, outline speedier planning consents for businesses.
10. Speaking in the international language of business: operating in English gives firms in the UK a natural advantage when communicating globally.
11. Progressive communications network: The UK has the most extensive broadband market among the G7 countries and one of the strongest ICT infrastructures in the world.
12. Home to Europe’s number one city for business: London is the world's leading financial services centre on a number of key performance indicators and was voted top European city for business for the 17th year running in 2006 by the European Cities Monitor.
13. Top talent: According to the Times Higher Education Supplement (THES), the UK has the top six universities in Europe and two of the top three globally. Source: The Times.
10

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:11:21
[contd]
14. Springboard to Europe: The UK is the number one gateway to Europe giving easy access to the 27 member states of the European Union, the world's largest single market, with its population of nearly 500 million.
15. Number one location for European headquarters: More overseas companies set up their European headquarters in the UK than anywhere else.
16. Olympic opportunities: London will host the Olympic Games in 2012. Procurement started in 2007. Contracts will be available for firms of all sizes and the total budget will run into billions.
17. Outstanding transport links: The UK offers a world-class transport network offering rapid links to mainland Europe and the rest of the world. Heathrow is Europe's largest air hub, with ongoing expansions improving its efficiency. London boasts one of the world's largest overground and underground rail networks.
18. High quality of living: UK residents enjoy a high standard of living, education and recreation. Personal taxes are low, publicly-funded health is free to all and there is a rich cultural heritage and abundance of leisure facilities.
19. Magnet for foreign investment: In 2006, the UK attracted and retained over one trillion US dollars of investment: the highest in Europe and the second largest in the world.
20. Productivity rapidly increasing: Historically, the UK had lower productivity than its main competitors, but this is changing and the UK has closed the gap with many countries and overtaken others.
11

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:11:32
The monarchy is a modern day institution which has every place in a democratic society, and the sooner we we appreciate that fact, then the better for us all.
12

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:11:41
That's it. I'm going to bed.
13

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:12:06
#1,

AM2 is talking with new clarity and for once you canny argue against his point!

Back on topic, it's clear there's no such thing as Britishness outwith the sewing circle, Sunday post reading, shortbread eating, tea drinking, blue rinse brigade!

Oh, and the hardcore Glasgow Rangers support!

People with loyalty to the WW2 sense of Britishness, are now disappearing, and the future is solely one of loyalty towards the sense of Scottishness!
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12/03/2008 00:15:28
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12/03/2008 00:16:54
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DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:16:57
AJ Fife how is it clear that there is no such thing as Britishness............

Remind me again, what percentage of the vote last May 3rd went to Unionist parties?

Outwith your small mind, the union is as strong as ever.


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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:22:29
One more mini-speech in support of the British identity:

The United Kingdom gave the world the first example of human rights in the Magna Carta plus modern democracy, the English Language, Common Law and even the first nationalised health services.

We invented most of the sports now played at international level; football, cricket, rugby, tennis, golf, darts, snooker et al..

We pretty much invented mechanical transport through the railways, steam engines, jet engines, electric engines, the internal combustion engine, the screw propeller, the gas turbine and even the bicycle.

We even beat the Wright Brothers to powered flight ("The world's first powered flight took place not in America in 1903, but at Chard in Somerset in 1848 by John Stringfellow." - British Embassies website)

Of course, we also industrialised the world! If it wasn’t for us, the mighty USA would still be travelling on horseback, moving goods by wagon and using slaves to pick their crops.

We invented mass communication through the printed word, radio, television and taken it truly global with the computer and the Web.

Many world-famous writers and poets lived and wrote in the United Kingdom including Geoffrey Chaucer, Thomas Malory and Geoffrey of Monmouth, Jane Austen (often credited with inventing the modern novel), Thackeray, Charles Dickens, the Brontë sisters, Thomas Hardy, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Anthony Trollope, H. G. Wells, D. H. Lawrence, Virginia Woolf, EM Forster, George Orwell and Graham Greene made contributions. J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings became one of the best-selling books of all time. More recently, Ian McEwan, Martin Amis and Zadie Smith were among those gaining recognition, and each new book by J. K. Rowling earned worldwide headlines.

And then there is Shakespeare.

The UK also produced innumerable scholars, scientists and engineers including Sir Isaac Newton, Bertrand Russell, Adam Smith, James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin, Sir Hump
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12/03/2008 00:22:48
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:25:07
[contd]
The UK also produced innumerable scholars, scientists and engineers including Sir Isaac Newton, Bertrand Russell, Adam Smith, James Clerk Maxwell, Lord Kelvin, Sir Humphry Davy, Joseph John Thomson, Sir Ronald Aylmer Fisher, Michael Faraday, Charles Darwin, Alexander Fleming, Francis Crick, Sir Joseph William Bazalgette and Isambard Kingdom Brunel. John Maynard Keynes devised the very economic theory that has given the USA its current wealth.

The UK cracked the mysteries of the atom, gravity and DNA.

And the Enigma code!

We were co-founders of the United Nations, the International Criminal Court, NATO and, of course, we are the founder of the global Commonwealth. We are key members of the EU and G8 (indirectly) setting trade and economic policy around the world.

We are the home of the global Anglican faith.

We have one of the most powerful armed forces in the world and the most powerful in Europe, one of the few countries that can independently defend itself if necessary.

London is the financial capital of the world, trading more dollars than Wall Street, and more Euro's than Frankfurt and Paris combined. Edinburgh is the UK's second financial city.
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AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:27:15
Der Fuhrer,

I know plenty of Tory, Labour and Libdem voters who consider themselves Scottish over British! The sense of Britishness began to die the day WW2 ended!

I suspect even a small minded moron like yourself, already knows that!
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:31:29
22. For some astonishing reason, this little list is missing from our authors: Iain Banks, J. M. Barrie, Christopher Brookmyre, John Buchan, Robert Burns, R. B. Cunninghame Graham, Arthur Conan Doyle, Janice Galloway, Lewis Grassic Gibbon, Alasdair Gray, James Hogg, James Kelman, Jessie Kesson, Liz Lochead, Hugh MacDiarmid, William McIlvanney, Compton MacKenzie, Sorley MacLean, Edwin Morgan, Neil Munro, Ian Rankin, Walter Scott, Muriel Spark, Robert Louis Stevenson and Irvine Welsh.

Between us all, is there anything we DIDN'T write or invent?
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AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:31:31
Der Fuhrer,

Have a wee look at AM2's post no26, for a clear understanding of what "Britishness" now means to people!

btw, I like the new AM2. I knew he'd come round in the end!
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12/03/2008 00:32:06
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GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 12/03/2008 00:32:41
9
Highland Mighty,
1
--------------------------------------

Hey Dude . It seems to me U are a fan of CUT and PASTE.

Technically isn't that called plagiarism.

Another Dude, uses that method frequently . Normad57
But he believes he is a KNOW ALL.. the poor guy.

GC
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12/03/2008 00:33:54
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12/03/2008 00:36:48
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AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 00:39:15
AM2#32,

I know you speak the truth man, but that aint the Hootsman's style!

The Hootsman's Truth Police will be onto you already, and you'll be zapped by the time I clock back on at 9!
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12/03/2008 00:39:30
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 00:41:31
just the very light way people now feel comfortable being scots , the people who feel sooo british shouldnt worry we wont be banning the sentimental attachement you have for britain , solway and tweed will just be rivers still , your english granny is our treasured guest still . we dont hate you . we want you to come along on the journey we ARE going to make ,i hope it will make you happy, despite what you feel it will mean, when we finally get there
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:44:24
I also consider myself Scottish over British, very much so, but this subtracts nothing from my preference to belong to a major country, with its major economy and strong international voice, as opposed to the nationalist dream of being just another one of the world's 'small anonymous countries'.

The UK is unique in the world in consisting of four countries. For citizens to declare their identity to their respective countries over being 'British' is clearly not any indicator of the imminent destruction of the UK, as the SNP and its angry mob frequently claims, just an acknowledgement of our respective heritages.
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12/03/2008 00:44:45
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subrosa,

12/03/2008 00:49:24
I might want this you know. More and more, when I go round the local Tesco, I wonder what country I'm in.
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:50:07
19. Haven't you heard? According to 'Foulkes the Cybernat', the OECD is riddled with corruption and is a well-known money launderer for organised crime. I kid you not.
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 00:53:26
er , didnt that dr david kelly get found on snowdon toooo?????
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12/03/2008 00:56:15
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Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 00:57:10
AM2™, is this you?

http://image.guardian.co.uk/artsblog/authorpics/david_batty.jpg

I have to say, the surname is quite apt!
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12/03/2008 00:58:15
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/03/2008 00:58:18
Highland Mighty

I think you should close the encyclopaedia now. We're not interested anymore.

Merely quoting a whole load of economic stats and historical information doesn't make you feel British. I could spend all morning quoting things that give us no pride in being British, e.g. our past colonialism and most things that went with it, but again, that would be missing the point. Read again the four people that were interviewed above. Their sense of identity is more personal and far truer than the four thousand or so words that you've written.
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 01:04:48
blimp old chap , i like scots people , so my patience wasnt feigned . unionists are a busted flush they just havent "got it" YET . we will need all our energy to combat the b b c spearheaded fightback that gordon brown has ordered . it really IS time dont y'know
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tree,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 01:18:39
"I also consider myself Scottish over British, very much so, but this subtracts nothing from my preference to belong to a major country..." - Highland Mighty

Highland Mighty - here are the choices of countries: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. There is no point hankering after Britain as a country. Last time I checked, Britain is an island and there is no such country as Great Britain, the U.K. the United Kingdom or any other term we attribute to our collection of countries. I think it bizarre that a British team goes to the Olympic games instead of each country sending their own team.

And since when wasn't Scotland a major country? I didn't notice any oil reserves waiting to be tapped off England's shore recently. Take a look at the statistics. In case you haven't noticed, we English are colonising your country in droves, desperate to get away from sub standard education and hospital care, terrible weather and public transport and infrastructure that has more in common with a badly run third world country than a first world country.

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tree,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 01:24:36
On the subject of anthems, AM2, I don't think the English do sing the British anthem, i.e. God Save the Queen, as the English anthem. I'm born in England, and last time I checked, the English anthem (should be "Jerusalem" - a much better choice) is "Land of Hope and Glory".
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Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 01:35:01
Peev
I am not a subject.Neither am I a citizen.
If a second cousin of Liz decides to go shopping in Edinburgh traffic is stopped.Police are used as traffic wardens...who pays for this?
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britsout,

treehugger 12/03/2008 01:40:50
i think a song written by william blake would be a smashing choice for england . a new begining . but im a scot so wouldnt presume , all the best for the future, we'll write
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britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 01:52:08
by the way my real name is britfree but a cookie sweeper did something i didnt understand and i became the slightly more negative sounding britsout. and on more nakedly geo political sites im less temperate and a disavower of brittishness AND THE REST
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Miss Jean Brodie,

12/03/2008 01:56:19
There has been no Queen Elizabeth of Scotland?
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Guga II,

Rockall 12/03/2008 01:56:57
It will be a cold day in hell before I would ever call myself "British". I am Scottish, I always have been, and I always will be. England is a foreign country.

This is another example of the colonial mentality of the English, trying to get us all to swear allegiance to a foreign monarch.

When Scotland regains its independence, the first thing we need to do is become a republic, and have nothing to do with any foreign parasites.
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Navvy,

12/03/2008 02:10:22
#71

Our traditional usage is Queen/King of Scots and not of Scotland
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Reekin' Lum,

12/03/2008 02:19:38
#72-quite right! Scottish first and always. This "British" rubbish is annoying and used usually by the English- British is English- Union Jack is English.

All this rubbish to be over soon when we terminate this "union".
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Reekin' Lum,

12/03/2008 02:21:18
#71 - there is, technically, a Queen Elizabeth of Scotland - the FIRST and only one we have had, if you recognize these people in the first place.

But don't worry, they will be long gone soon.
71

Navvy,

12/03/2008 02:21:26
We seem to have strayed from the article

The notion of an oath or pledge does seem un-British
If Lord Goldsmith seeks to instil a sense of pride why not emulate the Scandanavians and fly the flag in our gardens - mostly in the summer would be best when more people are out and about.

But make sure that tehy are clean and not frayed.

We have such a choice, the Union Flag, it's three patron saints flags and poor old St David can have the Welsh Dragon

I have no difficulty with being both Scots and British. The British bit started with the Union and was built along with the Empire by Scots out of all proportion to our numbers. Let us take pride in our achievement.

Those more recent citizens should just be British. After a generation or so they may feel that they are also Scots or welsh or whateffer as well.

It is a thorny one. I look and listen askance at some who claim to be Scots when their name clearly denotes otherwise. To the best of my research I am of pure, mongrel, Scots descent on both sides - Pict Scot Norse and Angle.

One one level one should claim what one feels but what happens if that is not endorsed by ones neighbours?
72

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 02:31:45
Couldn't help noticing The EBC1 6pm 'National' News illustrated this story about a BRITISH oath of loyalty with a shot of the ENGLAND rugby team.

Was this deliberate or are they just stupid and consider England and Britain to be the same thing?
73

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12/03/2008 03:19:21
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74

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12/03/2008 03:47:13
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75

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12/03/2008 03:49:32
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76

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 03:57:19
What an utterly ridiculous 'initiave'

Swearing allegence to any country whacks of flag waving dixie yankism. In Britain it would be a superficial gesture.

This would do nothing to abait the threat of terrorism.

It is quite obviously a political manouvre.

Tell em where to stick it Alex, you can't ram Britishness or Scottishness down peoples throats. We live in an enlightened pro-choice age, allegedly.

God, I hate the Labour Party
77

jamtart,

Beechboro Wester Australia 12/03/2008 04:03:57
I was born in Scotland and proud to be so.Since moving to Australia I have become an Australian Citizen and as such have swore to uphold the laws and values of this great country and am also proud to have my nationality shown on my passport as Australian.A sworn oath to Great Britain(read England) no no no not ever and no real Scot ever will consider it.I do have great respect for her Majesty the Queen and her immediate family,but as for the hangers on GTTF.
78

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 04:22:42
Jamtart -

I would agree that it is entirely reasonable to swear allegance to a new country that you have moved to, but this is another kettle of fish - getting kiddies to swear allegance!

I don't think it is unreasonable for a new emigrant in Britain to state some form allegenace to the country they have moved to - technically at the moment Britain (regardless of whither you feel Scottish or British)

What is being proposed is completely different to what you had to swear - it's brainwashing kids into a political union.

As a nationalist I do not feel compromised by recognising we are currently in a union with the other countries of the UK. The people of Scotland are free to choose their own destiny. (It just leaves a bad taste in the mouth that unionist governments have suppressed the truth, in a concerted fashion, about Scotland's financial position and seek to bolster 'Britishness' by getting 15 year old kids to swear allegance to the Union Jack)

It's not about security it's a feeble political initiave.
79

John Ruther,

West Pennant Hills 12/03/2008 04:44:32
Iam a Scot. Am probably also "prettanic" in a Pictish sense. But I am not "english" or Anglo-Saxon"
. Most definitely the English are not British.

I thought I should just mention this for Mr Goldsmith
80

Peter Kidd,

China 12/03/2008 05:43:06
I am Scottish and have worked and lived in many countries, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and am currently teaching at a University in China.
In most of these countries and countries of the world its citizens view the Union Jack, The UK, the Queen and all royalty and the word "British" as English- from England.
The "Act Of The Union" was supposed to be a treaty amongst COUNTRIES of Britain, to be equal in all things and respect each others sovereignty and culture. The English for centuries have been putting themselves first and renegading on the treaty, thus robbing us of our unique identity. Most of the time Scotland has no say in how the country of "The United Kingdom" is run. You just have to look at the Thatcher years when the majority of Scotland did not vote for her. Until recently Scotland felt like-and was treated as second class citizens.Its about time that we as a nation took responsibility of our own destiny. Scotland has given so much to the world and the English have taken all the credit. You'll find the world will welcome us with open arms.
81

Peter Kidd,

China 12/03/2008 05:56:43
And another thing. How can Queen Elizabeth the SECOND be Queen of the United Kingdom when the United Kingdom has never had a Queen Elizabeth the FIRST. For you arrogant English, King James the FIRST of the United Kingdom was also known as King James the SIXTH of Scotland. Us Scots might be naive but we DON'T forget!!
82

Richardinho,

12/03/2008 05:57:39
It wont be introduced in Scotland as we have a separate education system, It wont be introduced in Northern Ireland because it would be 'divisive' (understatement of the year), Wales not mentioned, but let's face it, they're not going to like this either.

So in short, the only country that would swear this oath would be England.

Bringing us together?
83

donald,

glasgow 12/03/2008 06:20:30
Only the Anglican Orange Order,the Loyalist Celtic Board and the Labour and conservative unionist Party will stand for this.
84

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 12/03/2008 06:20:43
.Scottish or British – a question of allegiance
------------------------------------------
Dudes ,
Oats or Pledges of allegiance's do nothing more than create international division, and fanatical nationalism in the minds of the very young people.

We have an example of that type of mind conditioning in my country, where ALL school children must pledge Allegiance to the Flag, every day they attend school.

Here is the REAL pledge of allegiance

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

But once again, the religious freaks had it changed to include the word DOG sorry I mean GOD .
So the present fake re-done version reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Even in the US religions are a main source of mind evil.
And trust in DOG (GOD) is paramount in the minds of the under educated masses.

Don't copy us Americans with pledges of allegiance.
Do copy our leadership in High Tech. Knowledge and Science

GC
85

PL,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 06:24:35
The lead story in The Times:

SCOTS LEAD REBELLION AGAINST OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

! Scottish Labour will never generate headlines like that.
It's exciting to have a real Scottish government after a decade of puppetry and mediocre nonentities.
86

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/03/2008 06:27:19
Daftest suggestion since Broon said we should fly Union Flags in oor front gairdens.

Oath of allegiance to the Queen ? Believe it or not Broon wrote a biography of Jimmy Maxton. How far he's travelled to the right...
87

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/03/2008 06:29:27
82 MacAlba - "Communist trash", the greatest Scotsman of the 20th century - C.M. Grieve - was a communist, and of course a nationalist.
88

Independent,

US 12/03/2008 06:39:42
Just an outside observation, but Scots always seem to say they are Scottish, Welsh Welsh. Why is it that the English have this hangup about saying they are English? England has a culture distinct from the rest of the UK, and there is no reason why they shouldn't cherish and celebrate it. Before it disappears forever from the look of things. Now is the acceptable time.
89

john z,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 06:40:56
Methinks this has had quite the opposite effect to that envisioned by gordons clowns in London, Engerland.

Why would anyone ever want to swear an allegiance to the english queen??

Day by day, it becomes clear, Scotland can and should run All its own affairs.

And as for the daft suggestion of a holiday to celebrate 'Britishness', where do I even start? The mind boggles.
90

john z,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 06:41:53
Number 95,

I so agree with all you have have said.
91

Daveinq8,

Kuwait 12/03/2008 07:06:27
'British' is a notional entity, not a national identity.
92

Reckless,

Republic of Great Britain 12/03/2008 07:28:11
Traitor number 1. HM the Queen. Has committed five acts of treason signing EU treaties that abolish our nation. She is the only monarch to have broken her Coronation oath. Failed as the ultimate check and balance, failed to insist on a national ballot for the abolition of our nation.

http://www.eutruth.org.uk/traitors.html
93

Aesop,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 07:39:03
"The proposal will also prove contentious for the two million or so avowed republicans in the UK who still consider themselves citizens."

I see that arithmetic isnt The Scotsman's strong point.
94

d.j.,

12/03/2008 07:48:14
86
You say you are not English. You speak English, of course you are English. You are part of the English culture. What is the difference between being English and Scottish.
95

Boy Wonder,

12/03/2008 07:49:03
I'm a Scot, first last and always!
I'm also a committed anti-monarchist.
I am NOBODY'S subject, British or otherwise!!!
My flag is certainly NOT the Butcher's Apron, and I will never salute it for any reason!
Did I mention I'm an avowed Republican?
I'm British in the way that I live in the British Isles, not because of a Union my ancestors had no say in creating (I come from a long line of peasants!) We were sold down the river by the Lairds!
Oath of allegiance?? They can feck off! I'm anti-Royalist.
I'm also anti-religion ... in case that gets included somewhere along the line!
I'm also anti-biometric-ID cards!

And why should new citizens take an oath of allegiance, when people born here decline to take it?
96

John S,

12/03/2008 07:51:13
Could the next step be in the form of some monetary incentive to take this oath with the acceptance or the refusal to take this oath recorded in a personal database ?

97

d.j.,

12/03/2008 07:51:31
The language one speaks denotes identity French, Russian, Greek, Arabic, Spanish etc. Whatever country you live in makes no difference.
98

eric,

Lothian 12/03/2008 07:53:01
At the Height of Great Britain! Working class folk all over Couldnt feed themselves died on the streets through starvation ,poverty.had child labour Lived in horrendous conditions.
Nothing GREAT about that.Its over with and we ALL know it.Half my family live in England and they would just be as Happy to carry an English passport as they have British.
99

Boy Wonder,

12/03/2008 07:54:01
btw ... my daughters will NEVER swear allegiance in school either!

Children must NEVER be brainwashed into things they don't understand!

America shows us that with their "oath".
100

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:00:12
It's hard to imagine a more "un-British" idea than making schoolchildren swear an oath of allegiance!

101

Jock 107,

12/03/2008 08:03:28
There was a socialist MSP who, when being sworn in, declared that her oath was to the people of Scotland. Seems better than to someone overprivilged by birthright.

I think it's a pity Eck declared himself as a monarchist
102

malkster,

Scotland 12/03/2008 08:03:37
#102

What a hate filled rant.
103

Iain's,

12/03/2008 08:06:06
As I understand, it is forbidden for Jehovas Witnesses to swear any oath of allegiance to other than God.

I can see their ranks swell if the oath is enforced legally.

Once again New Labour show their inability to think more than one step at a time. Unless of course...........
104

Gusto,

12/03/2008 08:08:46
No, no this has been misinterpreted. I'm sure what Lord Goldfinger said was that we should swear allegience to the stars and stripes. Are we surprized at this?
This is the guy, our highest legal mind, who pronounced the Iraq war as legal.
105

Over the Top,

12/03/2008 08:10:52
104
At last another person knows about language and identity.
106

Determinist,

12/03/2008 08:11:14
I see witness, mac alba, and highland have been drinkin from the same pot.

Some of the comments on here make you shudder

I believe a significant proportion of people from all nations in the UK would be against this oath - why are we trying to teach our children to kneel to another human being in this day and age?

Can't beleive this is a serious proposal... maybe one of those positioning statements to make the real proposals more palatable
107

Boy Wonder,

12/03/2008 08:14:08
#109 re post #102 ... you think so? You need to get out more!
108

Over the Top,

12/03/2008 08:14:44
It is not by chance that the Scots are identified as being English. They do after all speak English as their first and only language.
109

Determinist,

12/03/2008 08:17:17
#117
So do the Americans... and the Aussies... and Kiwis... and the Irish.

110

eric,

12/03/2008 08:21:25
117 Americans speak English! The English struggle with it.England has only ONE too!
111

malkster,

Scotland 12/03/2008 08:23:21
#116

I disagree with thso oath as well but it will never happen so it is not worth getting upset about.

#113

I seriously doubt you would go to jail it is just a n idea designed to cause debate.
112

Boy Wonder,

12/03/2008 08:24:17
My nephew told me last night that if he (he's 15) was asked to recite an "oath of allegiance" in schoool ... he'd be the first one carted off to "juvie"!! And he's not into politics!

Music and girls are what's important to him.
113

FiBop,

Málaga, España 12/03/2008 08:37:59
I am NEVER gonna pledge an oath of allegiance to the Queen why should I? I have never met her, she does nothing for my country except own large parts of land used mostly for holidays.

"British" is another word to declare yourself "English".

Always when a Scottish person does well we are classed as "British" and god save the queen is played... aint it funny when an English man does well they are refered to as "English" not British and oh wait for it god save the queen is played yet again.

God save the queen is not our national anthem, nor is the queen our national leader in fact it is very much an English thing.. I will not be patronised into thinking I am British in any way.. I am Scottish bring back the flower... and send them home tae think again!
114

dimba,

12/03/2008 08:38:09
ME AND MY SIS, KIMBA, WILL BE MAKING INTELLYGENT COMMENT ON THIS FORUM ALL DAY LONG. GOT IT?
115

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:38:24
Why should anyone want to relinquish their position as a citizen of Scotland to become a subject of the Queen ?
116

Calum Crubag,

12/03/2008 08:46:01
A subject of the Queen??!!! How forward looking! Engerland uber alles...

Funny how this ridiculous idea isn't appropriate for the Irish?

Do Labour want to completely self-destruct in Scotland? I wonder what Wendy thinks of it?
117

Calum Crubag,

12/03/2008 08:47:37
117 - nonsense. Tens of thousands of Scots have Gaelic as their first language and use it everyday. I use as much Gaelic as English.
118

Calum Crubag,

12/03/2008 08:47:41
117 - nonsense. Tens of thousands of Scots have Gaelic as their first language and use it everyday. I use as much Gaelic as English.
119

malkster,

Scotland 12/03/2008 08:49:30
#128

ten thousand out of five million is equal to 0.2% of the population.
120

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 08:51:54
On a sensible note for a change

177 English first language sorry very wrong, Gaelic.

I am Scottish, but strangly can speak English fairly well even if I cannot spell it correctly.

This swearing allegiance is not a disruptive issue it is plain stupid and pointless and no doubt will cost a fair amount of money that could have gone to better causes.

It will also not creat any greater unity within the countries that make up the UK, it will have the opposit effect. Apart from the Scottish not being amused at this idea in general I think a good number of the Irish will go slightly mental at the idea, Not that sure about the Welch.

Same for law abiding Republicans and Jehovas witnesses as already mentioned by others.

It is also not required. The forces swear allegiance to the Queen regardless of where they are from and while wrong as a Scotsman to swear to Elisabeth the Second because in my eyes and many others she is Elisabeth the First, I suppose it saves a fair bit of beaurocracy. It also states fairly clearly where the non English countries stand in regard to Buck house and Westminister.

Next issue, I am not anti the Queen seems she tries hard at what she does, but have little time for the rest, getting a sodding fortune at the public expense for basicaly being just tourist attractions. I do however think that a monach is better than a president as these jokers are just looking out for No 1. Mr Bush is a good example of why a presidential set up is not that great an idea.

To sum up, a stupid idea that is not required and will have the opposit effect, it will also I think make more people anti monachist.

As for a British National day, St Andrews, Georges, Patricks, Davids, Gordon Browns Birthday, Lord Goldsmith Barmitzva. the date of the signing of the Magna Carta or the Declaration of Arbroath.? Pick one because I cannot think of a suitable days that would suit all nationalities. Also is it wanted by that many people, Doubt it.

A wiser per
121

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 08:53:05
130

He stated TENS of thousands.
122

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 08:54:29
April the First for British national day.
123

Encephalon,

12/03/2008 08:56:20
A sure sign that the Disunited Kingdom is coming apart at the seams when they dream up this nonsense.

Unbelievable????

If anything if this goes ahead it would only serve to highlight just how divided this little island state has become-or perhaps that is Nulab's strategy? There is certainly no consensus of support around the monarchy or indeed any of the established Churches and as for democratic traditions eg the mother of parliaments-utter hogwash!
124

Roy,

12/03/2008 08:58:11
Sounds to me like Brown is wanting to create his own version of Hitler Youth or the Little Pioneers. Brain-wash 'em when they are young. Shame on him.
125

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:58:31
Elizabeth the Second is first, and foremost, the Queen of England!

According to the written constitutions of Australia, Canada, New Zealand and several other Commonwealth nations, she is also recognised as their Head of State!

According to the 'unwritten' British Constitution,
in the U.K. the present Queen and previous English monarchs have never been referred to as the Queen (or King) of Scots which, if it was formally recognised, would be her official State title?

126

Encephalon,

12/03/2008 09:01:07
Just to remind everyone it wasn't anywhere in Scotland that RAF were instructed not to walk around in uniform.

Engerlund is facing huge social problems that have nothing to do with the SNP or the West Lothian question.
127

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:02:28
#134 Couldnt agree more, devolution is a manifestation of cultural diversity, and it is no surprise that it has everyone up in arms with a one size fits all perscription.

But let us just for a moment, that this madness was to become law, what happens if wee Johny or Jintie say at 16 or 18 "Im not doing this" Are they deported, where too? Are they given dentention, how long? If they are on benefits, are they cut?

Goldsmith has alot to answer for, having got us into the mess in Iraq, I sometimes think with a pedigree like that, perhaps a wee holiday at Broadmoor or Rampton might be in order
128

J J MAROONER,

12/03/2008 09:12:17
135#

Yes I agree our children dont need this, will it be hand on heart and a chorus of God Save The Queen before lessons commence in our schools.

I am not a Nationalist but I agree with Alex Salmond on this, it has not gone down well in England either.
129

BJGlasgow,

12/03/2008 09:12:29
Why should I swear allegiance to an organistaion that treats me as a second class citizen (subject)? As I Catholic I, and all my fellow Catholics are barred from the monarchy. Even marriage to a Catholic renders the member of the royal family ineligable for the throne and they have to give up their right of succession. Why would I want to swear allegiance to an istitution that discriminates against me in such a way?
130

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 09:18:21
To use the Queen as the focus of any pledge of allegiance is unnecessary.

I'd rather swear an oath to the British-wide values of freedom of speech and religion, democracy, rule of law etc.
131

Determinist,

12/03/2008 09:18:51
Surely the issues of whether she is queen of scots or not, or whether catholics (and I was brought up as one) can become monarch or not, are irrelevant compared to the basic principle that it is wrong to force people to pledge allegiance - and subservience - to another human being.
132

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 09:19:32
141. Refusing to swear allegiance because you could never become King/Queen?
133

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:22:31
LOrd Goldsmith would do well to recognise that the United States is a multicultural ethnic society spread out over the entire country.Foreign policy is therefore crucial to electoral success since EVERYBODY is an ethnic there!
The United Kingdom comprises of 4 ancient nations whose cultrual diversity is entrenched in history and cannot be undone and certainly not because Goldsmith or Gordon Broon thinks it can!
An oath to allegiance to the Queen.
Thats something which is voluntary ONLY!
I would seriously expect every teenager in Scotland to think about any such notion and the vast majority refuse to participate.If we are to have freedom of speech then we must also have the right to shutup when it suits our purpose!

THIS will achieve nothing hopefully.I say that because any attempt to employ this will prove so divisive it will achieve the opposite!
DAFT IDEA and it displays a level of understanding of Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland that could not have less relevance than it does.
Goldsmith must be like Broon .FULL OF IT!
134

blair,

North Berwick 12/03/2008 09:23:41
In the BBC programme "Rivers of Blood" the other night Enoch Powell said "We must be mad". Is this evidence that these Politicians are? I have Scottish nationality. I have British citizenship. The Queen is Queen of Scots not Scotland and that stems from the fact that the clans and families in Scotland accept the Monarch as the overriding Chief. It was always accepted that the overriding Chief could be changed if a majority felt it was necessary. I heard a very wise Padre once say that the essential difference between the English and Scots views of Royalty was that the English still thought of the Divine Right while the Scots knew that the old Scots Kings were so loose-living that if Scots could trace their heritage far enough back they would probably find that they had Royal blood in their veins and the Royal Family were only very distant cousins who had got on rather well in the World. Perhaps Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay, who went to Gordonstoun, realises that.
135

Determinist,

12/03/2008 09:27:06
If we go back far enough we're all from princes and peasants.

The monarchy is a tourist attraction at best. Personally, I'd get rid of it - but at the very least it should have no constitutional role at all
136

Graeme,

Guangzhou 12/03/2008 09:34:23
Gaga, #72

Up to your usual small-minded redneck rants again I see.

You are again an embarrassment to our country.

By the way, by your own admission you were also a parasite to many foreign countries. Most connected to the past Empire or Commonwealth. Eejit.
137

Andrew Waldron,

Bournemouth, UK 12/03/2008 09:44:09
It will be the same as the situation in the Olympics. If you win, you're British - but if you lose, you're Scottish!
138

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:50:23
I think this silly plan will be quietly dropped.
Brown and Goldfinger would have to be daft or politically suicidal to proceed. The consequences of this IF it came about would be:

1. Constant humiliation for Brown and the Queen as millions refused to swear.

2. Wipeout at the next westminster election for Brown.

3. A republic when the Queen dies.

So it's just NOT going to happen. I also think it is illegal to force people in a free country to swear to anything. Radio 4 are reporting that if you don't swear you will not get an ID Card. As we all know that ID Cards WILL ULTIMATELY be compulsory, then so will swearing allegiance. Remember the free speech bit?

Just WHAT would they propose doing with those "criminals" that refuse to swear??
Jail? Deportation? Guantanamo Bay? Torture?
I doubt Guantanamo Bay is big enough.
139

Gothic Rose,

12/03/2008 09:52:12
124#
No need for threats,or "Dads Army will get you"They are posting continually.
140

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 09:52:14
#4 highland Mighty

Your lack of understanding is apparent when you use the phrase:

"GDP per capita"

Stop posting nonsense.
141

bill-alba,

Fife 12/03/2008 09:54:34
I am scottish ..
Goldsmith saying that we were sceptical about citizenship ceremonies for immigrants but that has now gone..well you lordship it hasnt gone... I am much more comfortable with immigrants who say they are Scottish Asians, moslems etc.. because that is what they feel rather than people who are forced to take part in stupid ceremonies to make them feel "british" when it doesnt. Re the olypics..anyone got an update on the campaign for a Scottish olympic team???
142

JPF,

12/03/2008 09:54:42
Typical pompous english arrogance that the only place this buffoon thought might have a problem would be 'Northern Ireland'..... incredible.

Swearing some sort of oath to the queen would be unacceptable to me, and probably millions of other british citizens, Scots, Welsh and probably quite a few english.

Then again, should I be surprised? The UK is a deferential nation, with a public that voted the queens grandaughter their best sportsperson only a year ago. A country of bowing, scraping, forelock-tuggers, who think that people can still be born into 'privilege'. Pathetic.
143

blair,

North Berwick 12/03/2008 09:57:38
I once suggested to Willie Hamilton, Labour MP for West Fife, that all Politicians should have to to pass an Intelligence Test and a General Knowledge Test before being permitted to enter Parliament. His reply was, "But that would throw out half the Members!"
144

Huntlylad,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:58:28
Guga #72 for your interest and maybe even education. Our current monarch (Elizabeth) is descended from Mary Queen of Scots, as has every monarch of Great Britain and more recently the UK and the Commonwealth countries since Mary's death. In denying monarchy, which is of course your choice, you are denying a central aspect of Scotland's history; the "victory" of the Stuarts over the Tudors and ultimately Scotland's role in the unification of the English and Scots thrones and thereafter, the parliaments.
145

blair,

North Berwick 12/03/2008 10:01:00
158 I was quoting what I was informed was the legal position.
146

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:05:20
#22 HM More rubbish:

"If it wasn’t for us, the mighty USA would STILL (my capitals)be travelling on horseback, moving goods by wagon and using slaves to pick their crops."

If you are going to cut and paste these "facts" at least try to make sure they are factual before posting.

Anyway, what point are you trying to make with this never-ending rant?
147

Miss H,

12/03/2008 10:16:26
I cannot believe you are making the attempt to defend this utter nonsense Highland Mighty.

It is possibly the most ludicrous suggestion that a politiican has come out with in the past decade - and it's coming from the Prime Minister!

Apart from anything else it makes me wonder when was the last time Gordon Brown actually met a teenager. The prospect of an assembly hall of 16 year olds swearing allegiance was rightly described by Alex Salmond as Monty Pythonesque.

And if I was the Queen I would be a bit annoyed about it as well - I can't think of anything more guaranteed to foster a spirit of republicanism can you?

148

alanh,

ek 12/03/2008 10:16:46
altho I feel Scottish i dont have a problem with an allegiance sort of thing for kids. For now to queen and country and then just for country when we get independance

the only problem is that they are asking for it too late ,imo. It should be targetted at kids when moving from primary school to secondary as then it could give some a feeling of togetherness when they can feel more iscolated.
149

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 10:17:00
The score so far, based on this thread is

Those for swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen - 13

Those for telling the PM and Goldsmith to shove Britishness right their backside - 138
150

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 10:20:24
162

For your education they claim to go back to Nechtan, followed my Malsnectan, kings of Picts basicaly at the dawn of history. Second oldest Royal line on Earth after Japan who claim descent from Jimmu Tenu son of the Sun God.

It is probably fair to say that these Kings of Picts did exist but descent well who knows.

I also cannot accept some of your points.

In the Highlands and Islands at the time of unifaction we did not in general swear to the throne of either Scotland or England.
151

Miss H,

12/03/2008 10:21:11
166 Get a grip. I would have taken my children out of school rather than make them swear an oath of allegiance to Britian and I would feel exactly the same about an oath of allegiance to Scotland.

Children should not be required to swear oaths full stop. It's an outrageous concept and I am sure 99% of parents would feel the same way.
152

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:24:07
Ochone ochone ochone
... heeeerie heeerie
Another wee gem o' a Hootsmon story
... to ruffle the feathers of the "Braveheart"
... hoochter Teuchter section ehh??
The red-beards will be
... getting oot their plastic swords
... to chase oot they durty baisterts ehh??

Gaun youse eejits git yer blue-face paint oan again ehh.
153

Alberto.,

12/03/2008 10:24:28
Giving guidance on the benefits and commitment by Swearing 'allegiance' to anybody - anything.and this coming from the mouths of Lord Goldsmith and PM Brown would seem to be pushing things a tad too far, and well down into the realms of 'Fantasy!'

I believe 'all' our so called Honourable 'Politicians' swear allegiance to this once fine Country and the reigning Monarch - but considering the antics and dubious activities, legal or otherwise, many, maybe all (some probably as yet undiscovered!) - Need more be said?
154

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:27:03
John Swine-ney should be getting
...his P45 soon
...from wee Eck
...and Sturgeon-bot Stepford Wife Version 4.001
155

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:28:53
#106 Boy Wonder - Agreed. I hope you also object to school kids being brain-washed by the Global Warming/Climate change fascists.
156

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 10:33:33
167
AJ make that 139.

Amparo,enjoy yersel last night?;-)
157

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:38:19
Picture the scene ...
SNP Headquarters:

wee Eck: "Right Nikki hen whaur's yon
numpty Swinney hen??"

Sturgeon-bot Version 4.001: "Ehh dunno boss!!"


wee Eck: (dialing Swinney's mobile)

"Christ Nicola it's still switched aff hen."


Sturgeon-bot Version 4.001: "Jings crivvens help mahh Boab"


wee Eck: "Ahh speaking of Boab ... I must call yer Doctor Nikki hen."

(dials robot repair company)

"Hallo is that yersel' Boab ... when are ye coming tae dae the Service oan Nikki?"

Boab the repair man:
(rubbing his hands in glee at prospect of another fat pay-cheque)

"Nae bother Alex ahh'll be roon in hof an hoor pal 'n'at."

(dials is girlfriend)

"Right Sharon
... where dae ye fancy gaun oan holiday noo?"


Sharon: "Well Bermuda looks nice Boab."


Boab: "Right darlin' pack yer suitcase
... yon mug Salmond wants some
... robot repairs again."
158

yockel,

12/03/2008 10:40:15
It's all just a socialist plot to turn us into anti-monarchists. What are they getting up to behind our backs while we debate this drivel?
159

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:40:33
#108 Jock

You are misinformed. Salmond stated on taking his oath that his first loyalty lay with the people of Scotland.
160

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:44:25
#175
Well Conan ...
As yon lassie in "Train-spotting" said:
"Don't us girls just love it??"

However in answer to yer query (which I just looked at the noo).

Yes I have (in my humble opinion)
... fantastic shapely legs
... hence the mini-skirts
... babes.

Also
... I am a lady in my mid-thirties and
... my hubbie is only just turned 30.

Does that answer yer question Conan??
161

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:46:04
#127 Calum

Wendy is too busy coming up with an explanation for the Scottish Industry Forum fraud to be bothered with this.
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 10:49:02
178. You are correct. Salmond has prefaced the oath each time with a statement that the SNP believes the the sovereignty of the Scottish people is paramount.
163

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:50:01
continued ...

Boab the repairman: "Aw naw Alex ... Nicola has goat a virus 'n'at pal!!!"

wee Eck: (looking scared)
"Christ Boab can ye dae onything aboot it??"

Boab the repairman: "AHHH ...mmmmm ... tricky mate!!"


wee Eck: "Aw!!!"
164

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:52:17
#144 HM - You try exercising your beloved freedom of speech anywhere near Westminster and plod will have you in hand-cuffs quicker than you can cut and paste your nonsense.
165

Ananurhing,

12/03/2008 10:52:24
142# Danielrober

My kids have had a blatantly unionist head teacher at their school. Last May during a discussion on the election, she informed the kids that the SNP wouldn't be able to form a government, and that that was a good thing. My 10 year old daughter took her to task on this, and won the argument in front of the whole class.
She came home quite perplexed saying, " I really don't think she (teacher) understood what she was talking about. She doesn't understand how it works."
That's my girl!
Needless to say, HT has now been replaced, for other reasons. How dare she bring this kind of politicised guff into school.
Like this oath of allegiance nonsense, it was a blatant attempt to indoctrinate children. I personally would withold my kids from school before I would let this happen.
Also begs the question of whether a unionists argument is smarter than a 10 year old.
166

Russell,

linkhills SCOTTISH REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA 12/03/2008 10:54:05
WHAT IS THIS DEBATE SOME KIND OF JOKE ,THE ROYAL FAMILY IS NO MORE SCOTTISH THAN FREDERICK THE GREAT AND THE REQUEST TO SWEAR ALLIEGENCE IS NOTHING SHORT OF CORRUPTION OF FREEDOM OF CHOICE, NO WAY I'M SCOTS AND UNTIL WE FIND OUR RIGHTFUL CROWN WILL REMAIN A REPUBLICAN
167

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:54:08
#147 The answer is none. Salmond will not allow any allegiance propaganda in Scotland.
168

Russell,

linkhills 12/03/2008 10:55:26
ANY QUESTIONS
169

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 10:55:59
156. You don't think 'GDP per capita' is a recognised method of measurement?

(I suspect it isn't me with any "lack of understanding".)
170

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:56:33
continued ...

Swinney: "Hello boss
... sorry mah mobile wuzz switched aff."


wee Eck: "Nae bother John
... git yer airse roon here pronto
... Nikki has thrown anither wabbler."


Swinney: "Ahh'm a wee bit hung-over
... ahh wuzz oot fur a swally
... efter takin oan
... yon BBC Unionist propagandist Brewer
... oan "Newsnight" last night."

wee Eck "Aye weel John ... fast as ye can 'n'at pal."
171

EWB,

UK 12/03/2008 10:57:01
What's wrong with Scottish and British, or English and British, or British and Scottish/English?

How will Scots describe themselves when the State of Europe is established? As Scottish and European, or simply as Scottish? If as both, then why is that any better than being Scottish and British? We're a' yin clachan.
172

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:57:05
Who was the last monarch crowned with the Scottish crown ? Possible Charles II in 1651.
Scots are citizens, English are subjects, maybe not much practical difference but we should be wary of giving up anything to a temporary government.
173

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 12/03/2008 10:57:23
Just say no...do not give the establishment permission to force this on your kids....if that would have been their intention....
174

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 10:57:27
183. You don't think there is a freedom of protest outside Westminster?

You are coming out with some extremely ignorant comments today.
175

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 10:58:54
#166 Alanh God save us from people like you.
176

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 10:59:57
#185
Russel, South Africa ...

... how is yer new best mate Jacob Zuma doin'??
... Robert Mugabe parte dos huh??
177

Nikostratos,

12/03/2008 11:02:31
SEEING HAS ALEX SALMOND AND EVER SINGLE SNP MSP FREELY AND WITHOUT COMPULSSION HAVE TAKEN THE OATH WHATS THE PROBLEM WITH OTHERS TAKING THE SAME OATH.
178

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 12/03/2008 11:02:33
At last something everything can agree on.... that this idea is an L.o.B.
179

dimba,

12/03/2008 11:03:03
Hi,

You know that me and my sis will be commenting soon...we will be making LOTS of intellygent comment, along the lines of how you backwars scots must lay down before yor masters (enlgand and the queen). GOT IT?
180

Sgritheall,

Switzerland 12/03/2008 11:04:57
#4 Highland mighty

home of one of the world's principal cultures

Now, what could that be? Teenage pregnancy? The deep fried Mars bar? Hooligans?
181

Suzi B,

12/03/2008 11:05:18
This one cracks me up. The quintessential Englishman tells us we should be swearing allegiance to Queen and Country because it will help unify us! That he talks of 'national' pride just shows how out of touch with reality he actually is. Lets get out the red, white and blue bunting and have a jolly street party to celebrate. Huzzah! That should unite us all in celebrating our Britishness, don't you think?
182

Russell,

linkhills 12/03/2008 11:07:06
196 MAGABE IS ZIMBABWE GET YOUR GEOGRAPHY RIGHT ,DIFFERENT COUNTRY ZUMA, LETS WAIT AND SEE DON'T BELIEVE THAT SA IS ENTIRELY STUPID AND WILL ACCEPT A COMMON THIEF LIKE HIM
183

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 11:07:27
continued ...

Swinney (on phone to Nick Clegg LibDem leader again)

"Right then Nick you lucky baistert ... how's yon sexy Spanish wife o' yours??

Nick Clegg: "My wife Miriam is fine John
... and you??"

Swinney: "Well yon pal o' hers the Andalucian girlie wuzz awfy cute
... if ahh come doon tae London again
... can ahh git tae lumber her??"

Nick Clegg: "Lumber?
(looks up his dictionary of Scots slang)

"Ahh yes lumber
... as in 'hide the salchicha'
... as in 'get your oats'
... I say you Scottish chaps are awful.
... well I will ask Miriam
... if Lucia is 'up for it' ...!!"
184

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:08:23
197. Please explain the point of this oath-ing?
185

Russell,

linkhills 12/03/2008 11:09:11
196 HOW MANY POLITICIANS DO YOU THINK YOU'VE GOT WHO ARE WORS THAN THESE TO ROGUES
186

Ananurhing,

12/03/2008 11:10:14
197. Ah but, they had their fingers crossed.
187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:10:23
193. Oh dear, Highland Mary misses and hits the wall again. No, there is no free protest outside Westminster. New Labour passed a law specifically banning such. Applications for protest around Westminster/ Whitehall must be made in advance and a license for protest issued by the police.

This is why a single woman, who was reading a list of Iraq war dead at the cenotaph was arrested.
188

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 11:11:12
#202
Yes Russell
... I am well aware that Zimbabwe is next door.

... did Jacob Zuma send the Police Chief chappie
(the one who investigates corruption)
... yon poison letter he received yesterday??
189

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:12:02
#188 Highland Mighty

You are just setting yourself up for public ridicule. You, my friend, are confusing GDP with GNP (not to be confused with the BNP).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/88618.stm

GDP is an indicator of the total size of the national income. It is a measure of the size of the economy. To express GDP in terms of "per capita" is simply wrong. A child-like error. To compound the error by re-stating it is laughable.

Or, to put it another way, you are talking s h 1 t e !
190

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 11:14:21
continued ...

Swinney: "Aw Nick that wid be pure dead brilliant 'n'at
... yon Lucia lassie is a right wee stoater.!"

Nick Clegg: "No old chap
... down here in Inglaterra we say
... stunnahh!!"
191

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 11:16:19
Ayrshire,

As you know, it's a contract which would bind you to allowing the state to manipulate you and use you in way they see fit!

Remember the slaughter at the Somme 1916 - that's the type of thing that can happen when you agree to an oath of loyalty to Queen/King and country!

It's something my bairns won't be doing, that's for sure!
192

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:16:22
#193 Highland Mighty (getting less so as this thread progresses)

I love debating with you. You set yourself up for a fall every time. Read this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/aug/01/houseofcommons.uk

I can only assume you post your rubbish without checking its accuracy first. The internet is a powerful tool, if used correctly. In your hands it appears to be useless.
193

Russell,

linkhills 12/03/2008 11:17:33
WHERE THE H" IN GLASGA DAE YE COM FRAE YE SEEM TO BE WELL READ YET I DONT SEE YIR OINT IS IT BECAUSE I DON'T LIVE IN A SINGLE END?
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:19:35
211. AH, AJ i see.

I thought that having kids take an oath would magically stop anti-social and neddish behaviour, and at a stroke eradicate crime?
195

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 11:20:15
continued ...

Swinney: "Can you email me Lucia's picture Nick??"

Clegg: "Well look John
... let's not discuss impropriety just now old bean
... come down to London
... I am sure Lucia will come to our
... dinner party."

Swinney: (creaming his boxers at prospect)

"Ok Nick ... I have to see Alex today for a de-briefing
... I was on "Newsnight"
... oor wee Local version
... last night mate."

Clegg: "Ok John
... book a flight John
... Miriam and Lucia will collect you at
... Heathrow
... I am sure we can manage something for you."
196

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:20:39
212. Oh dear, you have gutted nad stuffed the Highland Mary, yet again. Don't worry, he will just ignore your points and keep bleating at right angles to reality.
197

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:22:57
#197 Niko

I think that swearing the oath is compulsory if you want to become an MSP. Salmond does qualify his oath though, by stating that the sovereignty of the Scottish people comes first.
198

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:24:32
#207 Precisely.
199

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 11:25:59
Ayrshire#214,

It would give neddish behaviour the Royal seal of approval.

I can see a future when neds nick and torch a Citroen Saxo, in the name of the Queen and their beloved Prince Harry!
200

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:28:59
#216 AS

I suspect you are correct. Highland Mighty (a mis-nomer if ever there was one) has a habit of retreating to a safe distance when challenged. I expect him to pop up on another thread now. He can run but he can't hide!
201

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 11:29:56
continued ...

wee Eck: ( dialing Boris Bandido)

"Hello comrade ...
Is that Boris Bandido???
... of the Russian "Full-Malky Service"??"


Boris Bandido: "Si si senor
... a sus ordenes Alex old chap!!"


wee Eck: "Can you set my mucker
... John Swinney
... up for a 'date'
... with your niece Svetlana??"


Boris Bandido: "Ahhhhh
... Svetlana is on holiday
... in Cuba.!"


wee Eck: "Damn !!"


Boris Bandido: "Don't worry senor
... companero Alex
... Olga is available !!"


wee Eck: "Brilliant Boris ... send her roon."
202

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:37:28
I think that by proposing this oath idea, Brown has already damaged himself, irrespective of whether he dumps the idea or not.

The law of unintended consequences at play again ie a policy to unify the people of the UK is in fact dividing them. Who does he take his advice from? Just about anyone on this thread (with some obvious exceptions) would have instantly advised him against this. I expect Gordie used Goldsmith as the patsy here and will now go into hiding until the heat from this utter debacle subsides
203

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 11:39:58
continued ...

wee Eck: "So Boab can Nikki be sorted 'n'at??"

Boab the repairman: "Ehh bad news Mr. Salmond
... she is ahhh ... Donald Ducked mate !!"

wee Eck: "Keech Boab
... dae ahh git a trade-in part exchange deal???"

Boab: "Naw pal ... cannae dae that th' day 'n'at."

(Light bulb appears above Boab's head)

"Yer lucky though Alex
... ahh've goat wurr new version oot in the car-park in the van wae me."

wee Eck: (resigned facial expression as he fetches cheque-book)

Boab: "Ahhh'll awa doonstairs and fetch it fae mahh van
... hod oan Alex."


wee Eck: "Wow Boab
... Version 5.001 is a wee stoater 'n'at !!"

Sturgeon-bot Version 5.001: "Ahhhh boss ...
... ahh hud such a luvly wee dram there
... where is Swinney
... did you get him
... on his mobile??"

wee Eck: "Right thanks Doctor Boab cheerio
... aye Nikki hen he is coming roon noo!!"

Boab: "Right Sharon ... huv ye packed wurr suitcases yet?
... meet me at Abbotsinch Airport
... Bermuda here we come
... yeeeee-hahhh!!"
204

dido-bendigo,

Argyll 12/03/2008 11:40:20
I wonder if there will ever be a passport issued bearing the logo of the Republic of Scotland? I suspect the next big change to our British passports will be that they will carry a legend similar to 'Citizen of the Union of Europe & Dependent Countries'. Remember the 5th of March, 2008. You may grow to resent it! Where were Salmond and Co that day? I don't remember seeing them demonstrating at Westminster. (By 'Co', I mean the Scottish 'Parliament').
205

DLD,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 11:41:28
i'm 100% Scottish. we are a seperate country so why should we be ruled by england and have there queen. its a joke. The sooner were totally independant the better.
206

James S Dow,

Bucharest, Romania 12/03/2008 11:47:25
Fora number of years I have been an expatriate like many of my fellow countrymen. Time and again I meet a stranger who'll ask "Are you English?" I reply no "I'm British." Sometimes the odd one will recognise that they have been presumptive. Others will think I'm just being obnoxious. The rest just don't understand. Personally I have no problem with being British and Scottish. That is the privelege my ancestors have bestowed on me. I don't need to swear allegience to the monarch to confirm or establish I am British. My ancestors have been British for millenia and Scottish for just a little less. Anyways, Baroness Kennedy got it in one. The oath would be just an empty gesture. You need to do more than that to be British or Scottish for that matter.
207

,

12/03/2008 11:47:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
208

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 11:47:49
#224 dido

The answer to your question is that Alex Salmond, MP, was in the House of Commons voting FOR a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The Libdems should be your target. They turned up too but most of them did not vote at all!
209

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 11:49:28
Isn't it about time the royal spongers got proper jobs ?
210

Jambo Number 1,

12/03/2008 11:57:59
How long before Media1 comes along for our daily dose of how great it is for Scotland to be part of england and how Scotland would resemble one of the less salubrious parts of Outer Mongolia.?

And also, where is that pesky St George and Whits her puss?
211

kimba,

12/03/2008 12:01:10
Until we need a passport to visit each others country we will remain BRITISH,you may not like it but that's the way it is.
212

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 12:02:57
232,

"Whits her puss", has jist turned up at #233!

It's KIMBATIME......
213

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:04:50
4 HM

90% of the country is struggling with debt and you post that p*sh again didnt you humiliate yourself enough yesterday?
Its t*sspots like you who epitimize all that is Britishness to me. And I do believe it was the world bank I suggested may be involved with organised crime and many US and UK politicians appear to agree with me
it seems.
Lets watch todays budget and get a real indication of the state of the nation. If we judge the state of the UK by your indications then we should expect some very healthy tax cuts and no new taxes introduced dont you think??
214

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 12:06:04
227James Dow-well said.

There are two key issues-the Monarchy and the Nationality questions. There are a significant number of republicans in the UK both Unionist and Nationalist. The majority of them would be on average good citizens with a loyalty to their country whether that is GB and Ni or one of the constituents or both. The queen is our Head of State and as such should be entitled to respect and, if the majority wish to retain a Monarchial system then the minority should respect the democratic choice. However, an oath is an emotive and solemn undertaking-Republicans should not be required to take such an oath, so in practical terms this is a non starter.
Pity from my point of view,but there you have it.

The British-English Irish Welsh Scots debate. Two identities, no matter in which order, should not be seen as mutually exclusive. As long as there is a United Kingdom then as in EVERY other country in the world one should respect the country as constituted. If Nationalist movements persuade a majority to their causes then Unionists should respect the will of the majority. A good example of this would be the Republic of Ireland where Unionists accepted and respected the Republic of Ireland.

And by the way republicanism has its flaws-George Bush ia Head of State and Commander in Chief of the US armed forces!!! Think about that one republicans!
215

Fettes,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:12:59
Why should our young people have to swear allegiance to the Queen and Britain ? What is happening to freedom of speech and thought in this country under New Labour ? What do they suggest happens to any young person, or anyone else for that matter, who refuses to take such an oath ? Perhaps they will be sent to soviet style labour camps to be re-educated as good subjects.
216

Calum Crubag,

12/03/2008 12:14:58
Saw one post referring to the British board of Celtic FC. Interesting. Would John Reid have the courage of his BritNat convictions to swear an oath of allegience to the Queen under the Union Jack at Celtic Park? Maybe someone should put that question to him?

As someelse here said, we have a separate education system (does that mean Scots teachers have always been separists??!) so this hairbrained idea is a non-starter in Alba.
217

dido-bendigo,

Argyll 12/03/2008 12:15:13
#229 Connaughtboy

Nice to hear that he occasionally believes Her Britannic Majesty's Government's proceedings are of some importance. Also, to see that some people are keeping an eye on him. I was sorry that my Liberal MP didn't bother to vote. It won't be forgotten, not that the Nat's will benefit, or any other particular party!
218

dimba,

12/03/2008 12:17:31
yay! kimba is here!

Now, you silly scots - get this rite.....YOU ARE BRITS we all stand together, we all fall together, as my old dad says (when he's not working 28 hours a day at the pit, to pay for yor scottish subsidy) is it any wonder I carnt spell when all the money heads north?
219

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:21:46
#233 kimba

Not strictly true. When Scotland becomes independent, it is highly unlikely that a passport would be needed to cross the border. Under the Schengen Agreement (1985), 31 European states already operate this way (no passport to cross borders), and they are not all members of the EU.

So your argument that we will remain British until we need a passport to travel within the UK is fatally flawed.
220

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:25:59
#239 dido

We you not aware that Salmond was at Westminster that day? If not, why did you not check first before assuming he was not.
221

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:28:52
further to my post #241:

kimba if you don't believe me, just you check your factoids with your bigger, smarter sibling, dimba.
222

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:33:06
#243 clarry

I don't follow your argument. At the moment every school has religous "interference" of some sort and to some degree, rightly or wrongly. Are you suggesting that the SNP should eradicate this once Scotland becomes independent?
223

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:33:48
Has Gerri Peev not been sacked yet?
224

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/03/2008 12:34:04
I LIKE the idea (anybody surprised?)

Good morning, Doreen, madam.

I think an oath of allegiance to Her Britannic Majesty would infuriate the SNPers and other fringe groups.

I also think that reciting the oath is not enough - one must kneel on the floor in front of an offical portrait of The Queen whilst reciting and then backing away with reverence from the breathtaking presence.

Boy Wonder

When you say your son is only interested in "music and girls" one can only hope for your sanity and peace of mind that he has taken up the gentle strummings of the lute and not the crashings of the drums.

As a result of the abuse I suffered in these forums because of the vexed question of Canadian bearskins, I have adopted a motto courtesy of a Canadian friend:

IN DEFEAT, DEFIANT. IN VICTORY, VENOMOUS.

Has a certain ring to it, non? Latin translation to follow.
225

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 12:45:24
TimW1234- Love it! No matter what ones general view of these matters you gotta love the icons of Empire and the pluck and gumption influence! A personal favourite is Fripps painting of Isandlwana-tattered Union Jack, brave Tommies standing with the little drummer boy, heads enbandaged surrounded by the Zulu hordes.
Also lines from songs.."No surrender,no retreating, Harlech wins the fight!" and of course the inimitable Winnie"We shall NEVER surrender!"
Oh and one last little Scots-English composed dittie..
"Britons NEVER NEVER NEVER shall be slaves!"
226

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 12:45:24
TimW1234- Love it! No matter what ones general view of these matters you gotta love the icons of Empire and the pluck and gumption influence! A personal favourite is Fripps painting of Isandlwana-tattered Union Jack, brave Tommies standing with the little drummer boy, heads enbandaged surrounded by the Zulu hordes.
Also lines from songs.."No surrender,no retreating, Harlech wins the fight!" and of course the inimitable Winnie"We shall NEVER surrender!"
Oh and one last little Scots-English composed dittie..
"Britons NEVER NEVER NEVER shall be slaves!"
227

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 12:47:53
Clarry-enjoy your posts!
228

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:49:12
#246 I was dead against what she did too until I saw her on video being "interviewed" by Tucker Carlson. I liked the way she stood up for herself and the way she kept cool under some rather unfair interviewing. Oh, and it also helps that Gerri is drop dead gorgeous which i was unaware of until I saw this video.
229

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 12:50:04
My post at 236-what I meant was that SOUTHERN Unionists respected the Republic
230

Kilted Iain,

STORRINGTON, West Sussex 12/03/2008 12:50:34
I am a part Scottish, part English Monarchist and have no qualms whatsoever in thinking of myself as proudly British. My allegiance to Scotland is probably stronger than that to England, but I still see this Nation as being firmly united. Devolution would be the ruination of both 'countries' - each has too much to offer the other for them to be rent assunder.
231

Luke Skywalker,

Edinburgh, United Kingdom 12/03/2008 12:51:58
225 please learn to spell. When you are a big boy, you will be able to post comments on this site.
232

kimba,

12/03/2008 12:52:10
241.You are correct,but, there is a snowball in hells chance of any separation under either labour or tories,and even the EDP are in favour of keeping the union together.
233

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:52:19
#249 clarry

Sorry if I come over as sectarian, but I was simply trying to understand the point you were making. Would you, for instance, support the singing of christian hymns at a school morning assembly or do you see that as too much emphasis on christianity?
234

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:53:47
#257 kimba

So you accept that your post #233 was just plain silly then?
235

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 12:56:46
213 Russel-is that linkhills eThekwini? You and i are poles apart politically but if u are in Durbs then maybe we should have a dop sometime?
236

fiferjohn,

12/03/2008 12:58:16
am Scottish nothing else .
i would rather be hung drawn and quartered before i would swear allegiance to the royal family and britain.
i will only swear allegiance my country SCOTLAND not to a person or a institution that is no longer relevant.
i am a citizen not a subject if gordon wants to be a subject fine but there are alot of people out there that are like me and refuse to be class as a subject of anybody or counrty.
i am a free citizen that live by the law of the land not be decree of a family
237

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 12:59:39
#259 Sounds like you have never been to America.
238

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 13:01:14
240

Clever, funny good sense of timing, took it you got it from your old man but wait for it wrong. Am not British.

Dont know what these creatures are.
239

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 13:01:43
#262 fiferjohn

My sentiments exactly.
240

kimba,

12/03/2008 13:03:06
257. Not in the least, my post @233 was correct,because the only way Scotland and England will be divided will be under extreme circumstances,hence us needing a border.
241

dimba,

12/03/2008 13:05:04
yeah - there is a snowball in hells chance of any separation under either labour or tories,and even the EDP are in favour of keeping the union together. You silly sscotnats dont understand the properties of snow or hells...GOT IT?
242

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 13:05:27
#266 kimba

Yes a border, but not a passport to cross it.
243

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:05:41
FiferJohn and connaughtboy-where would you like to be hung,drawn and quarterd and can i arrange to do the two of u together-simpler from an admin point of view!:)
244

dimba,

12/03/2008 13:07:18
yes, kimbas post post @233 was correct,because the only way Scotland and England will be divided will be under extreme circumstances,hence us needing a border, hence a passport and hence asylum seekers from england who really just want to get all the benefits of subsidised scots, cos dad is fed up working 70 hours a week just to subsidise you all.
245

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 13:07:51
Incidently kimba, you may have missed it but we already have a border between Scotland and England. Yes, a real, meaningful border. In what way do you think this would change post independence?
246

Arfur,

12/03/2008 13:07:58
i would rather eat a dog tur@, stick pins in my eyes and walk over burning coal than call myself British.

I find it so bizare that some people would rather call themselfs by a collective group of countries rather than by their own country.
247

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 13:08:22
267

Am a Nationalist from the far North and a Wee Free, so well understand the concepts of both Hell and Snow
248

Doreen,

12/03/2008 13:09:30
247.....Good afternoon to you Timothy Charles...personally I think John Lydon (ex chanteur Sex Pistols) had a far better idea...auction the Famille Royale to the French....they could then dally with them as they so wished....dont think the French were up for it though.....

Just think TC...the way things are going with our Royals....in the far distant future...the Queen (male or female) will probably be tiptoe-ing through the tulips in shocking pink...carrying the latest designer must have..(cloned of course) tiny wee corgi dug..in a house of Windsor Lizzy bag...fashion statement for those in the know....in fact, could well be a clone of Paris Hilton sat on the throne....I can just picture that...

If the English are British, how come us Scots aint Scotlish?
249

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:11:46
Hey hey I am back !!!

goat a wee bitty waylaid
(she said re-arranging her Tartan mini-skirt)

Onywayes boeys and girlies
... the Hootsmon is always a right guid laugh ehh??
250

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/03/2008 13:11:53
kimba! Are you listening. It can't take this long for a response. Not when you obviously put so little thought into your posts. Hurry up!
251

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:12:25
272 Arfur-rather extreeme old chap! Given the choice I personally would rather avoid your options to being called British-especially not keen on dog tur@ -tried it once-didnt like the texture but perhaps its an acquired taste!
252

kimba,

12/03/2008 13:13:05
272. You are going to have a really painful life then!
253

dimba,

12/03/2008 13:13:51
but, you dont understand - we stand together as british and you scots arent allowed to think differently - because you need to be grateful, but if not, then you will be taxed to drive acros the border, which is what we in the edp want to see to save the union.
254

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:15:51
continued ...

wee Eck: (wallopping Nicola roon the heid wae a spanner)

Sturgeon-bot Version 5.001:
(org*sm noises)
"Aw boss there ye urr
... aw ahh wuzz hivin' a wee dream 'n'at boss !!"
255

kimba,

12/03/2008 13:19:21
277. Are you always this impatient! last time I travelled to Scotland by car it read "WELCOME TO SCOTLAND", by train you would never know.
256

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:21:04
275 Jackie Priest-most unionists do not regard Scotland a a 'region' but a Nation amongst Nations in the UK.
There is nothing ridiculous about RulesbutnotRulers argument-dual identities are common worldwide-Germany only became a "nation" in the late 1800's combining a several states. Also if u can make a nation from apopulace as diverse as that of Americas then u can make a nation from any group on earth. Nations in essence are artificial constructs-there is nothing in the blood to seperate us in real terms
257

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:21:05
275 Jackie Priest-most unionists do not regard Scotland a a 'region' but a Nation amongst Nations in the UK.
There is nothing ridiculous about RulesbutnotRulers argument-dual identities are common worldwide-Germany only became a "nation" in the late 1800's combining a several states. Also if u can make a nation from apopulace as diverse as that of Americas then u can make a nation from any group on earth. Nations in essence are artificial constructs-there is nothing in the blood to seperate us in real terms
258

Kenny A,

12/03/2008 13:22:16
280

Afore long you will get in growing nose hairs at this rate.
259

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:23:05
continued ...

wee Eck: "Aye weel Nikki hen we huvnae goat time furr this th'noo 'n'at

(Swinney walks into room)

Sturgeon-bot Version 5.001: "Ahh boss ... here is John th'noo 'n'at !!"

wee Eck: "Right whit happened oan the Idiot's Lantern
... last night??
... ye wurr Keech-van-der-Reech John
... Brewer kicked yer bahoookie guid
... 'n'proper 'n'at
... whit huv ahh telt ye aboot
... yon durty Unionist sell-oots
... at the BBC??!"

Swinney: "Ahh can explain boss
... he ambushed me wae his Paxman-esque line
... of questioning
... awfy difficult
... they BBC Propagandists for yon durty baistert London
... know whit ahh Haricot bean boss??"

wee Eck: "Aye weel laddie
... ye wurr awfy daft
... that Gordy Brewer
... he is a right wee sell-oot London Boaby a la joaby."
260

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 12/03/2008 13:23:36
Allegiance ?

Allegiance to monied colonists defending their self aggrandised establishment of theft, deception, war, ethnic cleansing and centralism. Under the banner of a blood spattered Saltire of faux democracy calling it self the U.K.?

Aye right.



261

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 13:24:39
It is a nonsense to force people into swearing allegiance to anything. What exactly is the problem that it is supposed to solve? If anything, it shows how lost the Labour party are in Britain; for a party who sought to support multiculturalism they are back pedalling furiously.
262

The Master,

12/03/2008 13:27:40
Scotsman Forum First: I tend to agree with Salmond on this : it’s Pythonesque to swear an oath of allegiance in this country. However, it doesn’t make a hoot of difference whether citizens of this country choose to describe themselves as Scottish, English or British, as it all comes to the same thing anyway. It’s just not something that’s all that big an issue in the lives of ordinary people (unless they happen to be part of the cultish Nat Fanatic tendency, of course!)

#280 dimba: don't worry! The Master's now here to add some intellectual weight to proceedings!
263

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:28:15
continued ...

Salmonds mobile rings

wee Eck: "Halloooo
... can ahh help yooo?"

Olga Bandido: "Hallo ... eess that Meester Salmond??"

wee Eck: (walking away soo Swinney can't hear)
"Ahh the "Full-Malky Service" in Moscow
... yes??"

Olga Bandido: "Si si senor
... a sus ordenes companero
... my name is Olga
... you ahh spoke weeeth my Uncle Boris earlier
... yes??"
264

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:28:21
275 Jackie "Scotland is a country and culture unto itself." No country is an island. You express yourself in impeccable Oxford English-so much for a culture unto itself!! My good friends AJ Fife,derech fae Yell and a few others now THEY can be a culture unto themselves when they scribe in Scots! But then again some Liverpudlians sound like Rumanians to me!!
265

kimba,

12/03/2008 13:29:53
20. you have been reported. Infact,you are to be pitied,you are a vile individual,who is as you scots say, Twa bubbles aff the centre"
266

dimba,

12/03/2008 13:30:32
yes, but I went to scotland on a pony and they said I wasn't welocme and then they wrote "sNP" on the pony's forehead, and ran away humming the theme tune to river city. Thats what this pledge is all about - it will stop that behaviour dead.
267

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:31:34
continued ...

Swinney's mobile rings

Swinney: "Aye!!"

Nick Clegg: "Right old bean
... are you still having your de-briefing with Salmond??"

Swinney: "Yes Nick
... how soon can I defect to Westminster??"
268

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:39:14
continued ...

Swinney: "So this hot date with your wife's pal
... the sexy Lucia??"
(Swinney creams his boxers again in anticipation)


Nick Clegg: "Well
... ahh good news
... and bad news John mate."


Swinney: "Aw naw !!"


Nick Clegg: "Lucia had to go to see her
... sister in Sevilla
... but her young cousin
... Carmensita
... is coming to our dinner party."


(Swinney almost faints)

Swinney: "Brilliant Nick
... ahh'll gie the boss and Nicola the heave-hoh then!!"


Sturgeon-bot Version 5.001: "Sensors indicate impending defection ...!!"


Swinney: "Right doon thae Abbottsinch
... ahh'll be at Heathrow in 120 minutes Nick
... will Miriam and Carmensita meet me??"
269

kimba,

12/03/2008 13:40:22
294. Talk to the hand,'cause i'M NOT LISTENING, YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A IGNORANT TROLL; I'm entitled to my point of veiw,if you don't like it TOUGH!
270

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:42:31
continued ...

Sturgeon sticks a syringe in Swinney's back-side

Swinney collapses.

wee Eck: "Excellent work Nikki hen !!"

(dials Boris Bandido's mobile)

Boris Bandido: "Hola companero Salmond
... que hay??"

wee Eck: "Is Olga
... yer neice oan her waye??"

Boris Bandido: "Si si comrade."
271

dimba,

12/03/2008 13:42:48
yeah 294 - shes NOT LISTENING.

whatevah.
272

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 13:43:46
300!!
273

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 13:44:05
get in thair!
274

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:44:20
#296
Kimba ...
Que te pasa amigo??

Did I say something wrang??
275

The Master,

12/03/2008 13:45:11
#296 kimba: Pinter it ain't!
276

dimba,

12/03/2008 13:45:23
no Amparo - she AINT LISTENING - GOT IT?
277

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:46:39
continued ...

Swinney wakes up in a Renfrewshire hotel near Abbotsinch Airport

Olga Bandido: "Ahh John would you like
... a glass of www-odka companero??"
278

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 13:47:51
Amparo#301,

Shut it, the Kimba aint listening, she says you're a tube!!
279

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:47:58
#303
Dim dimba ...
Who gives a monkey's cuss??
280

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:49:11
300 AJ-you jammy b*gger! i had my eye on that AND I've bin working for it! You pop out of nowhere!
Not fair.
281

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:49:34
#302
the so-called Master ...
and
#305
AJ Fife ...
Vayas a la mierde babes
282

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 13:50:43
Aw shucks Geoff, I jist happened along and there it was....the magical 300!

Maybe you could go for 333?
283

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 13:51:38
#308,

Charming!
284

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:52:04
continued ...

Olga Bandido: "John comrade companero mio ...
... dreeehh-nk some www-odka pal."

Swinney: "Ahhh are you Carmensita??"

Olga Bandido: "Si si senor
... ese soy yo !!"
285

The Master,

12/03/2008 13:52:29
#309 AJ: how many times do I have to tell you to get back to work? These meetings won't arrange themselves, you know!
286

kimba,

12/03/2008 13:53:53
301.yer bum's oot the windy
287

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:55:34
continued ...

Boris is in the adjacent room setting up the video-equipment for Salmond

Olga Bandido: "JOHN... pleeezz to be
... dreeenn-king some www-odka mate!!"
288

Allan(handofgod137),

12/03/2008 13:55:44
Scottish and British, God Save The Queen. Remember, we Scots have done very well as part of Great Britain.
289

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 12/03/2008 13:56:21
I am Scottish. I am not British. I would refuse to swear any royal or British oath.

But there is nothing wrong with claiming identity as both, or as British only.

After Scotland regains independence there will continue to be some people in Scotland who identify themselves as British. This is their choice and should be respected.

Especially for those who grew up at the time of the Second World War and its aftermath there is a strong emotional attachment to the idea of Britishness.

Even those of us who object to those who try to force Britishness upon us should remember to respect the right to self-determination of others.

290

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 13:57:32
#313
Dim Kimba ...

I am wearing 70 dernier tights
... under mahh Tartan mini-skirt
... so I won't feel the cold.
291

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 13:58:00
309 AJ Fife-or 666! but maybe that ones a little spooky!
292

DonaldDon,

Scotland 12/03/2008 13:58:01
As the Rev Ian Paisley used to say:

"Never, Never, Never"
293

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 13:59:51
Master#312,

Sorry Boss, your next client is the gentleman with the snooker cue and the swarfega. Would you like a giant cushion sent through afterwards?
294

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:00:24
#313
so if mahh bahookie is oot yon windae
... ahh wullnae feel it.
As Glasgow ladies are always prepared for exigincies you see.
So I put oan 70 dernier tights
... under the mini-skirt
... just in case
... that is the kinda
... sexy senora I am babes.
295

Silence of the Yams,

12/03/2008 14:00:51
Scottish 100%. The Union served some purpose but is now holding Scotland back. The Republic Ireland is the model we should look at. Yes, Unionists, the Republic is a very rich, very sucessful nation.
296

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 14:03:43
316-wow Andrew Ireland! A remarkably sensible-dare I say sensitive post! There is such a broad range of views on these forums but I often wonder what would happen if we got AM2,Highland Mighty,Meths,Ayrshire,Dereck,AJ,Kimba,self and a few others round a fire of an evening with a few bottles-would we tear each other apart or would we enjoy the crack(phonetic sp)? I hope to be in Kintyre in September....
297

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 14:03:43
316-wow Andrew Ireland! A remarkably sensible-dare I say sensitive post! There is such a broad range of views on these forums but I often wonder what would happen if we got AM2,Highland Mighty,Meths,Ayrshire,Dereck,AJ,Kimba,self and a few others round a fire of an evening with a few bottles-would we tear each other apart or would we enjoy the crack(phonetic sp)? I hope to be in Kintyre in September....
298

dimba,

12/03/2008 14:03:52
show sum respect Yams - your queen will send prince philip to set fire to the discovery in dundee...just as happened with the cutty sark...if your lot dont grow respect.
299

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:06:50
continued ...

wee Eck: (on phone to Boris Bandido)
"So did yer neice Olga collect Swinney as
... we arranged??"

Boris Bandido: "Si si companero."

(Boris turns on video camera
... Olga changes into her Anne Summer's gear)

wee Eck: "So how much will this here "snuff-video" set me back Boris mahh man??"

Boris Bandido: (calculator in hand)
"43,000 Roubles Alex companero
... quite cheap ehhh??"

wee Eck: "Wull Olga shoot him??"

Boris Bandido: "Not quite
... you remeber comrade Litvenenko??"

wee Eck: "That's whit ahh like tae hear pal
... weeel done Cutty Sark
... yer neice Olga!!"
300

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 14:08:58
Geoff SA#324,

Not sure about that scenario, but Kimba's crack might be interesting!;)

301

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:09:38
continued ...

Olga Bandido: "Lie down companero
... yes of course you
... can call me Carmensita
... if it makes you happy
... okey dokey companero !!"

Swinney: "Whaur did ye get yon Tartan fish-net tights hen??"
302

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 14:09:52
322. Again with the ill-informed comparison to Ireland.

Ireland has has also received 34bn euros of EU aid in recent years. That's equivalent to 85% of its annual budget. And only this year has it been expected to actually start paying something back.

Say the UK had received the equivalent share of our national budget, about £450bn, in EU aid. That would pretty much overhaul our economy, education, health, transport and housing sectors too, wouldn't it.
303

,

12/03/2008 14:10:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
304

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:12:02
continued ...

Knock at door

Spanish chambermaid: "Yopu wannah 'nother sheeeet senor??"

Olga Bandido: "Look sweetie
... we are beeezy weeeth zeee sh-aggg-eenk now!"
305

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:14:51
Maybe if the Queen got 'sexy' I would be interested. A garter now and again! Caught with a fag drooping from her mouth, red lipstick lashed on, black low cut goonie.
306

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:14:57
continued ...

Swinney's mobile rings

Nick Clegg: "Jesus John ...
... Carmensita and Miriam are waiting at Heathrow
... where in the 'all-that-is-but-not-God' are you??"

Swinney: "Ahhh hod oan Nick ahh'mm wae Carmensita in a wee hotel room th'noo!!"
307

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:20:35
continued ...

Swinney waps Olga in the coupon
... THEN DISMOUNTS
... rapidly pulling on his boxers and trousers.

Swinney: "Christ Nick
... whaur ahh'mm ahh pal??"

Olga falls over unconscious
... Swinney exits hotel room.

Nick Clegg: "Look John
... Carmensita will wait at Heathrow
... my wife Miriam has to go to a meeting soon."

Swinney: (hails passing Black-hack taxi)

"Right driver
... Glasgow Airport fast as ye can pal."

... "ok ... Nick how wull ahh recognise Carmensita at Heathrow??"
308

­,

12/03/2008 14:20:35
Amparo all posts

Yawn boring unfunny trite pathetic childish and irrelevant. You impress no-one but yourself.
309

Gothic Rose,

12/03/2008 14:22:14
TimW1234.
"Anyone surprised"

Should one be????
310

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:22:23
#335
ohh nameless moniker ...
Ach weel laddie
... glad to entertain ye matey.
311

kimba,

12/03/2008 14:23:00
317.YOU'LL NEED THEM,IT'S GETTING DOWN TO -5C TONIGHT.
312

dimba,

12/03/2008 14:25:36
338 - reported! you are WAY off topic. GOT IT?
313

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:28:01
#335
ohh nameless one ...
wee Eck; Sturgeon-bot; and Swinney are wan big running joke
... jist like wee bendy Wendy; Curran the dough-heid; wee Joke McC et al.

Shut down Uncle Tom's Cabin /Hollyrood
... Scotland's most expensive
... and garbagio
... running joke / theatre show
... financed by the public purse.

Uncle Tom's Cabin is a disgrace.

wee Eck et al are eejits.

I merely provide an alternative to the cabaret
... that Scottish politics
... has become
... since
... Uncle Tom's embarressing Cabin was invented by Blair and Mandelson.

Que te pasa numpty-mio??
314

,

12/03/2008 14:28:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
315

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:34:05
#335
If you do not agree with my satirical sideswipe at the joke that Scottish politics
... has become under this embarressing exercise in devolved numpty-ism
... write yer ane stuff
... we can have a competition
... see who exposes Uncle Tom's Cabin
... the most accurately.

It is one big
... expensive
... political joke.

Shut down Uncle Tom's Cabin now.
316

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:36:29
0#335
If you want to be serious and dull ...

Go to the Glasgow Herald's strands
... the Hootsmon
... is a forum for humour as weel as serious social comment
317

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:38:48
The Glasgow Herald's forum / discussion
... is full of serious folks
... if you want to be serious
... go there matey.
318

Hunky Dorey,

12/03/2008 14:41:21
#7 So! you believe everything that you read on print? Poor you!
319

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:43:51
i dont what stats the liars want to use but the fact is im scottish pure and simple and nobody not a foreign queen or otherwise is going to tell me i should show allegiance to country who for three hundred years has tried to wipe out my country whether it banning my language gaelic or my right to breath now trying to get the migrants to outbreed us i want independence no matter if it cost me more money in taxs a small price to pay for the death of my ancestors who tried to keep this country scottish have nt got long now though because at the rate the migrants are flooding in i will soon be an endangered species
320

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:46:10
#346
Dark side
... bring it on matey ...!!

Let's hear yer wit and repartee then.
321

Speckled Hen,

12/03/2008 14:47:43
#346 The Dark Side: that’s really touching from someone who quite freely admits to business connections in the sex industry whenever he posts about prostitution! I can just feel the tears welling up here!
322

Rita,

Warren 12/03/2008 14:48:16
Britain is one of the smallest countries in the world-- being an Island is its only defense, divided we fall -- united we stand , inside its borders you can be whatever you wish, in the face of the world-- stay British
323

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:51:34
#346
the more humour the merrier
... wee Eck; Sturgeon-bot ...
just like wee bendy Wendy; + dough-heid Curran before them

... have long since given up the right to be taken seriously
324

Geoff,

12/03/2008 14:53:04
348 brettgallacher-punctuation-one long sentence!!
325

cgrant,

tyler 12/03/2008 14:53:55
#94
When you are put before that GOD for judgement, the only one who will be on all fours will be you. Lucky for you that you will be judged fairly. Though, I would guess that your sentence will not be to your liking. Enjoy life while you can.
326

cgrant,

tyler 12/03/2008 14:55:33
#94
Pardon my typing the previous message was ment for #91
327

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow. 12/03/2008 14:57:01
" Helping diverse communities to heal divisions" and " A proposal to MAKE Britains teenagers pledge allegiance to the Queen" Apart from others like myself,I dont think that Britains 7 million Roman Catholics are going to pledge allegiance to a monarchy which specificly excludes them. If we really want to "heal divisions", lets begin by abolishing the anti-Catholic "no papist need apply" British act of settlement 1701. State sponsored sectarianism is WRONG! We cannot ask Britain's Roman Catholic population to give up their present schooling arangements whilst they remain second class citizens under the vile "act of settlement.
328

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 14:58:56
#350
+
#352

Scotland
... like other parts of Britain isn quite repressed w.r.t. zee sh-agging.

I recently bought a pole and some show-girl outfits
... I dance kinky stuff to keep my husband focussed in me.

If yer sex-life becomes dull ye divorce quickly.

My hubbie and me are consenting adults
... I do my stuff purely to arouse him
... we want another wean you see.
it turns him on
... it is all done in private
... where is the harm??

I also
... as I said am a woman in my mid-30's who is keeping a younger man happy

... what is wrong wae that??
329

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:03:17
#350
+
#352

As a woman in my mid-30's
... I feel well within my rights to wear short mini-skirts and sexy tops ...

where is the harm??

I wear mini-skirts at work
... and quite often get
... admiring glances from blokes in their mid-20's

again
... harmless fun.

I do not cheat on my husband.

He will get me pregnant again
... nobody else.
330

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:13:03
Reurning to the subject matter
... of this here
... hootsmon
... piece of so-called

... investigative journo-speak

... I do not care if folk are Scottish or British.

I am half Spanish and half Scottish.

Personally
... I regard myself as European first
... or
... Earthling first.
331

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 15:16:27
#105...... The word "Great " as in Great Britain is not intended to refer to Britains greatness. The word Great ( BIG )was used as a prefix to separate England from Wales, as Wales was one time known as Britain beag! (little Britain)and England having ownership of the largest part of the island was known as Britain more (big) which in time changed to Great.
332

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:17:17
#362
Dark side ...

... good for you matey.
I am sure the lassie keeps you 'on-track' ehhh??

Half these uptight people who pontificate on these here strands
... probably live pretty joy-less dull lives.

El sexo ... keeps a marriage alive.

My husband has no reason to cheat.

The minute he does
... me and oor weans will find another fella.
333

Joanna,

Cambs, England 12/03/2008 15:18:43
Hate to break it to some of the posters on here who think that the English don't consider themselves English first.... .many of us do. Just have a look at what the English papers are saying about this. If Mr Brown is doing this to try and appeal to 'middle England' he is wasting his time. All he will do is make himself more of a mockery than he is already.

This is a stupid idea and it will be a criminal waste of money if this government is ever so crass as to try and implement it. Its one of the most pathetic ideas yet that they've come up with.

Not on your nelly Mr Brown.
334

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:19:21
Onywayes ...

... where are aw they sabre-rattlin' hoochter Teuchter fans o' wee Eck et al the day??
335

The Vulture,

12/03/2008 15:20:35
#364: let's just call the whole island England! Who cares! Everyone called it that until after WW2 anyway! Nowadays it's only foreigners who call it that!
336

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:21:00
#366
a sensible English lass.

... well said Joanna
337

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:24:17
#368

Och who cares Vulture matey ...????

We should see ourselves as Earthlings
... and Europeans
... instead of some out-dated
.... 19th Century garbagio
... like British or Scottish or English or Welsh or N.Irish
.... hmmmm??
338

FiBop,

Málaga 12/03/2008 15:26:15
Amparo de Glasgow.. do u actualy speak Spanish or do u just talk shi*te ? I would go with ummm no... and what's your right to wear short mini skirts got to do with pledging an oath of allegiance to the queen hmmm.. Estoy pesando q tú hablas como una mierda d glasgow tío!
339

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:26:28
Anyway where are Mel Gibson's Tartan terroristas today??
Are they all away rehearsing for "Braveheart" parte dos??
340

Joanna,

Cambs, England 12/03/2008 15:27:01
Amparo @ 370

How about child of the universe?
341

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:28:37
#371
FiPop ...

gracias por tu opinion
... espero que todo va bien contigo companero.

Hoy es un dia muy especial
... que pasa ??
342

Silence of the Yams,

12/03/2008 15:29:39
329. And how much oil does Ireland have? How much infrastructure was there pre EU? Explain how the Irish have the highest GDP per capita in the EU? Talking nonsense mate, Scotland will flourish out of this illegal Union.
343

The Punisher,

12/03/2008 15:29:45
#368 Vulture: although I’m Scottish, I’ve got a habit of telling people I meet abroad that I’m English. Friends are shocked about this, but they know what it means straight away and I can always refine the definition by explaining that I’m actually Scottish if we get chatting further: “English”, “Scottish” and “British” all amount to the same thing anyway and are completely interchangeable.
344

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow. Phoblacht na Alba! 12/03/2008 15:30:12
#329 Highland.......... I think the fact that Ireland is at this time the 11th richest country in the world,is really causing people like you some annoyance, you keep coming up with excuses as to why you think Ireland is not a success.Dont forget that we can all read the newspapers, watch television and travel,especially to Ireland. The more we do these things ,the more we realise that you sir are a unionist fraud!
345

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow. Phoblacht na Alba! 12/03/2008 15:30:13
#329 Highland.......... I think the fact that Ireland is at this time the 11th richest country in the world,is really causing people like you some annoyance, you keep coming up with excuses as to why you think Ireland is not a success.Dont forget that we can all read the newspapers, watch television and travel,especially to Ireland. The more we do these things ,the more we realise that you sir are a unionist fraud!
346

The Punisher,

12/03/2008 15:31:08
#371: my queen wears a mini skirt and I swear an oath of allegiance to her no bother! QED!
347

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 15:31:55
And my double post proves that I am also rich and drinking brandy.
348

,

12/03/2008 15:32:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
349

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:36:00
#379
... Punisher
... yea mini-skirts are brilliant.

I myself think they are the best thing since sliced breid actually matey.

FiPop
... no te gusta las mujeres y chicas con las mini-faldas?
... o
... eres maricon??
350

,

12/03/2008 15:36:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
351

,

12/03/2008 15:39:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
352

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 15:41:09
again amparo turns a thread into a mental health ward
353

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:42:05
#383
Sideshow Bob ...
que te pasa amigo??

Does it matter whether we consider ourselves to be Brits or whatever really??
354

The Vulture,

12/03/2008 15:42:24
#383 Don’t utter the “k” word or she might think she might take it as a cue to return! I think you got away with it this time, but be warned! Btw, do try not to rile the Master if he deigns to put in another appearance: this is another surefire way to hasten the return of the “k”!
355

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:45:21
#385
brits-ooot
... ahh guid
... the red-haired blue-face paint brigade are back

... brilliant
... how's the rehearsing for:
... "Braveheart 2: the eeejits return" ...???

Methalions
... good for you matey.
356

The Punisher,

12/03/2008 15:46:00
#384 My girl has a variety of uniforms and costumes: just tell me what rocks your boat!
357

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:47:53
#388
Vulture ...
Selecting Lt. Uhuru's voice from Star Trek:
"OHHH cAPTAIN ... i'M FRIGHTENED."
358

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 15:50:14
#390
pUNISHER ...
i DON'T DO sADO-mASOCHISM
... JUST HUBBIE AND ME AND t.l.c.
... plus making babies of course.

#392
gracias tambien amigo.
359

Sgurr,

12/03/2008 15:50:40
worst thread in scotsman history. I wonder if anyone gets bored of posting the same inflamatory rubbish day after day? Guess not..
360

,

12/03/2008 15:54:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
361

Amparo de Glasgow,

12/03/2008 16:00:22
#388
continuing with my Lt. Uhuru voice ...

"OOOOHH Captain ... I am still frightened ...!"

Take they durty nasty "Braveheart" extras back tae Hollywood where they aw belong.

They are scaring our sexy English; Welsh and N.Irish cousins awa wae aw their racist garbagio.


There
... Joanna, Cambs, England ...

... was that 'cosmic' enough for you??
362

The Vulture,

12/03/2008 16:04:14
#393: a little bird whose meal I’m about to scavenge tells me that kimba’s just back from ikea where she’s bought a lovely new Spice Girls’ mousemat which she’s just itching to roadtest…..
363

The Vulture,

12/03/2008 16:05:44
Whoops! I inadvertently uttered the "k" word again! The forces of darkness gather ever closer!
364

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 16:13:43
400?
365

dimba,

12/03/2008 16:15:40
yay! someone said kimba! she'll be along soon methinks!
366

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 16:19:08
AJ Fife-my dear friend, now tell me honestly-is 400 better than 300?
364Hunky dorey-true, the "Great" does refer to the island maximus but also acquired the meaning as in "marvelous" during the empires heyday.
Deserved it too!
367

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 16:20:05
401 Meths, you're a card!
368

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 16:24:50
395 Sgurr-I've seen worse. Some banter is a natural part of any conversation but sometimes on these forums it gets out of hand
386 Meths 'I'm European' -well thats something that we can both agree on! Maybe european is the 'new Unionism'? Think about it-Ireland and GB re united!! As Europe moves to closer integration makes the whole Scotland Independence debate rather academic perhaps?
369

,

12/03/2008 16:28:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
370

dimba,

12/03/2008 16:36:55
says shed be here soon! lol!
371

dimba,

12/03/2008 16:38:54
didnt see u at the nortun rd special group..how not?
372

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 16:41:23
Geoff SA,

300 Spartans.....say no more!

I agree about the banter though, sometimes it goes beyond the pale (whatever that means!) LOL
373

Over the Top,

12/03/2008 16:44:04
How come when I travel abroad with people from Scotland, to countries such as Greece or South America they always say they are English, rarely ever Britsh and never Scottish. It is due to the fact that they have an English heritage and identity like the rest of Britain.


374

First Minister,

The Raj Restaurant 12/03/2008 16:44:40
HI Geoff
By Abuse, do you mean the sort of stuff that you come out with? You and english voice have been known to be abusive on the odd occasion?
Hypocrite?
Any joy with my previous question on listing 10 benefits of the union that we couldn't have IF england & Scotland become Independent?

375

AJ Fife,

12/03/2008 16:45:47
#412,

Meetheeenks you talk peeesh amigo!
376

,

12/03/2008 16:47:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
377

dimba,

12/03/2008 16:52:14
yes, cleverest, i knows it! Degree and no burns! lol!
378

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 16:54:11
When travelling abroad Kimba introduces herself as (a) female and (b) not morbidly obese. No one is fooled on either count though.
379

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 16:54:29
408 Meths-wow-cheap booze,expensive tobacco-Union (european) dividend!?
410 AJ-ah yes,sometimes more is less!
On the thread,which seems to get lost often, I think,albeit for different reasons that there is broad agreement amongst all shades of opinion here, that Lord goldsmiths idea is not a good one!
380

Scotsman in Dublin,

12/03/2008 17:00:09
What a brilliant idea, that should help bring independence another step closer.

Incidentaly, if Scots are forced to swear allegiance, will it be to Elizabeth I or II?
381

1314,

North East 12/03/2008 17:03:52
Is it legal for the government to ask teenagers to swear allegiance to something their considered too immature to vote on?

A massive own goal by Broon Nose!
382

Slasher McGurk,

12/03/2008 17:06:57
Teach the kids and let them decide, dont force it upon them swear allegiance to a useless old tourist attraction like the royal family. If they are not given the choice, i will tell my kids to stay silent.
383

Slasher McGurk,

12/03/2008 17:07:07
Teach the kids and let them decide, dont force it upon them swear allegiance to a useless old tourist attraction like the royal family. If they are not given the choice, i will tell my kids to stay silent.
384

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 17:10:29
414 Howsit first minister! On the first charge-abuse-I try not to-nobody likes abuse but hey,i'm human and we all do it sometimes. Hypocrisy-again something we are all guilty of sometimes-even u maybe!
10 benefits of a continuing Union-you only want ten? Highland mighty did a mighty good job of listing how the UK out of all proportion to its tiny size in both pop and land area, has outshone the rest of the world. I have given the list u are requesting many times over on these forums-when did u last ask? Youve been conspicuos by yr absence. Not dodging the issue but tired of the repetition so i'll give it to u in bits.
Economies of scale and avoiding duplicating institutions are two good benefits that come to mind. But turn your question round-give me ten benefits of splitting up the Union? And by the way, i have mellowed over the last eighteen months-I am and always will be a Unionist at heart but on an intellectual level,understand the desire of some Scots for independence. It is primarily a matter of the heart on both sides of the divide. yes there is the oil but then if england was to discover huge reserves tomorrow, would it change things in the indpendence debate?
I think not!
Regards
385

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 17:24:39
On a slightly different subject, some posts including mine come through twice. Is this caused by a virus or is it something at the scotsmans end of the link ?
Off to buy some of colonel saunders finest health food-catch u all later.
386

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:28:03
429. Geoff, no - don't hit the refersh button. Is a glitch on the new site, if you post and then refresh soon after you post twice.
387

Scotsman in Dublin,

12/03/2008 17:29:20
#428, given your ardent support of the benefits of economies of scale and non duplication of institutions etc I presume you are in support of dissolving the UK and signing over sovereignty to the European Union?
388

Juan Kerr.. :-),

12/03/2008 17:52:00
#417 - Kimba - as an English Democrat "England for the English" you would of course object too this proposal?


Got any more of any elses thoughts to copy and paste into this debate?


389

Juan Kerr.. :-),

12/03/2008 17:52:36
#417 - Kimba - as an English Democrat "England for the English" you would of course object too this proposal?


Got any more of any one elses thoughts to copy and paste into this debate?
390

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2008 17:56:22
#431.,Scotsman in Dublin.12/03/2008 17:29:20
‘… given your ardent support of the benefits of economies of scale and non duplication of institutions etc I presume you are in support of dissolving the UK and signing over sovereignty to the European Union?’

Personally SiD I believe that withdrawing from Great Britain, not the UK, and staying a part of the EU, leaves us with the advantage of deciding what the Scottish people want out of the institution.

391

Juan Kerr.. :-),

12/03/2008 17:59:23
"I FEEL Scottish because I am Scottish. I was born in Scotland, I work and I live here – what else would I be? The only reason Britishness is such a big issue with Gordon Brown is because he wants to prevent independence at all costs and make himself out to be less Scottish so he can keep his job as Prime Minister"


what this debate is really all about., Gordon appeasing and appealing to England. And in his usual Mr Bean way, He miffs every nationality.
392

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:03:26
431 scotsman in dublin(lovely city)-well thats sort of whats happening already with the treaty recently signed by the UK PM isnt it? The old canadian Prime Minister coined a lovely phrase to describe the downsizing of the Monarchy in Canada by lester pearsons Liberals-"Creeping republicanism!" To paraphrase the old war horse we are faced with creeping integration in europe. I haven't made up my mind whether this is a good or bad thing. As to economies of scale, you are no doubt familiar with the Law of Diminishing returns-perhaps it may be so with Europe-the logistics of melding several dozen languages and the consequent duplication of services necesitated thereby may negate economies! Also SiD,I did not express "ardent support". As I said , i've mellowed.PS-bit of info that may(!!) interest u-there is a Rangers Supporters Club in Dublin! As u may understand they are somewhat low key but will forward u the contact details if u like! :)
393

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:05:30
the old Canadian to whom I was referring was Diefenbaker-"Dief the Chief"
394

Over the Top,

12/03/2008 18:13:54
Just listened to Alasdair Darling Chancellor on television speaking about the Budget like a true Englishman. Now tell me that there is a difference between these two parts of Britain. A different culture, a different language; I think not.
395

Edward,

12/03/2008 18:14:56
What annoys me, is the use of the monarchy by Goldsmith with Browns conivance as standard, when in fact they are trying to get everyone to be British.
The idea is fairly crude. Goldsmith and Brown know full well that if they said 'Swear Allegiance to Britain and the Union jack (which is basically what they want) they would be hounded and derided. So pick something that is less provocative (in their eyes) so stick up the queen as the object to sear allegience to.
The fact of the matter is that the Queen has had no say in this and is being used by Brown (a bit like those old battle flags during the Nepoleonic wars, wher they had the troops rally around the flag)
Brown is scraping the proverbial barrel and using Goldsmith to do his dirty deeds (if it went well, he would take the credit, if not blame Goldsmith, we have seen it all before!)
There has been arguements on this forum that the Queen is and has nothing to do with Scotland. This isnt entirely true, if you look at the lineage, she actually has more to do with Scottish monarchs of the past than English (she isnt even related to Henry VIII).But the establishment and subsequent english governments have made a point of making out that the monarch is more english than anything else. This is a taint that will unfortunately stick.
For me personally I would never ever pledge allegance to Elizabeth second. I would definately not plead allegance to Great Britain or the United Kingdom
My only allegance is to my country Scotland and to my fellow Scottish citizens
396

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2008 18:21:44

#417.,kimba.12/03/2008 16:47:30
‘… im a clever girl whos interested in politics,so dont be horrible. Is this how you tartan taliban hope to make friends for yourselves, well just carry on, noone takes you seriously outside scotland and you only won because people wanted a change and everyone knows it.’

Kimba the cleverness of an individual is much like their beauty, it takes a third person to acknowledge, and though we can’t for your appearance who do you have to vouch for your cleverness on this site? I take it when you call people tartan Taliban you are not actually literally meaning Scottish religious students, so in your eyes what do you believe tartan Taliban mean, and then justify. There is a huge difference between people in little England not taking Scots seriously, nothing new there then, and others from around the world, are you trying to say you have good justifiable evidence to say Scots are not being taken seriously around the world? ‘you only won because people wanted a change and everyone knows it.’ You don’t say!

397

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:22:51
440 Meths-:):):):):)
441 Meths:):):):):):)
442 Meths :):):):):):)
398

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2008 18:24:19
#442., Methalions.
It can happen if you accidentally double click on this site.
399

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:26:57
444 Col Blimp-hi CB! Quite correct! Whether the original Dief would have been flattered or insulted-well we can only speculate! As to the RCMP as portrayed in Due South-a fine institutionwith more than a little British heritage!
400

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:30:04
446 Andrew-or treble click! Definitely gag of the evening Meths-nearly choked on my chicken :)
401

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2008 18:38:09
452 Methalions,12/03/2008 18:35:40
441
Methalions,
12/03/2008 18:19:01
#429 "On a slightly different subject, some posts including mine come through twice. Is this caused by a virus or is it something at the Scotsman's end of the link?"

Don't know Geoff. It's not happened to me.
402

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2008 18:38:36
453 Methalions,12/03/2008 18:36:02
452

Groundhog Day.
403

The Master,

12/03/2008 18:41:39
#443 Andrew Allan: I believe the phrase “Tartan Taliban” was invented by the Daily Record to highlight the constitutional sectarianism which the SNP advocate. Also, for some reason which I can’t quite put my finger on, I find it very hard to convince my self that they don’t want to ban fun in Scotland (maybe it’s something to do with all the party’s chips, imagined grievances and readiness to create conflict with Westminster). PS Whatever Kimba's shortcomings, at least she's intelligent enought to see right through the SNP!
404

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:43:09
Groundhog Day-great movie!
405

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 12/03/2008 18:51:18
I'm a proud DORIC LOON jist far div I fit in, in the gran schem o' things?

As a Royal Deesider I'm happy tae sweer allegiance tae her majesty bit only if she promises tae maintain her wee hoosie near Crathie.
406

The Master,

12/03/2008 18:51:29
#459 Meths: I'm something of a film buff, but I must admit that's one I've never seen. It got mixed reviews when it first came out, so maybe that's the reason. Am I right that it's reputation has been enhanced with the passage of time?
407

Sgurr,

12/03/2008 18:51:46
no, kimba. don't flatter yourself. I don't take that much interest in you.
408

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 18:59:38
461 the master-Groundhog day-great movie-Bill Murray at his wry comic best,the beautiful Andy McDowell(surely a scottish/British connection here!) and an intriguing and original plot!
409

,

12/03/2008 19:00:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
410

The Master,

12/03/2008 19:02:07
#463 Geoff: it's one of those movies I've always meant to catch before I shake off this mortal coil!
411

The Master,

12/03/2008 19:03:15
#466 Meths: you been on the brandy again, old chum?
412

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 12/03/2008 19:05:50
Dudes .
Why don't U copy and use a cannibalized version of the USA Pledge of Allegiance. And it would read like thus.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United Kingdom,
and to the Monarchy for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all."


I mean if U dudes, can accept Mac Donalds , Kentucy Flied Chicken, Subway Sandwich, Burger King, etc., all of which will turn u Dudes into obese cousins of America . Then why not also use our mind conditioning POA

GC
413

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 19:16:12
#469...".With Liberty and justice for all" Nice one! but I dont think that you have read the British act of settlement 1701. It makes for dreary sectarian reading.
414

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 19:17:37
#456

“Tartan Taliban”, “constitutional sectarianism”, “ban fun”, “chips”, imagined grievances”, “readiness to create conflict”, dear oh dear, is the best you can do?

How about “cause the sky to fall in”, “border guards at Gretna”, “exile Granny in Corby”, “£5,000 extra tax to pay”, “encourage terrorist attacks”, “poorer than Bangladesh”, “bra factory in Glasgow no more”, “ship-building in Glasgow no more”, “all the lights will go out tomorrow”, “ oil taxation income no more”, “ whisky taxation income no more”, “tourism no more”, “subsidy from our southern benefactors no more”, “Coronation Street no more”………………..

Come on sainted Master, raise your game and save us from ourselves!

(Only this time, attempt you use rational premises to advance your position.)





415

CROSSED GEORGE,

PROUD TO BE ENGLISH, NOT BRITISH 12/03/2008 19:40:05
Hmm, what to make of this?

Welcome to anthem4england - a website for all those English people that are heartily fed up of God Save the Queen being used as the English national anthem. For some English people English identity is coterminous with British identity. These people puzzle us; what are they thinking when the Scots and Welsh sing their anthems with gusto and then boo God Save the Queen; have they not noticed that since devolution the Scots and Welsh now govern themselves (and us), and; do they realise that English nationalism and self-awareness is resurgent, the St George's Cross having displaced the Union Flag in the affections of most English people

ANTHEM4ENGLAND now bookmarked as a favourite
416

CROSSED GEORGE,

A VERY PROUD ENGLISHMAN 12/03/2008 19:41:32
MacAlba: The Coming Independence (c2007).,12/03/2008 01:02:18
I never have and never will swear allegiance to a damned English queen for as long as I live. I am no more allegiant to that woman, her heirs or successors than I would have been to the Third Reich, had I been alive then!

Until such time as they recognise the evils of their predecessors, and make long overdue reconciliation with the descendents of their victims, may England, their monarchs and successors perish into the deepest pits of hell for all time to come! ASSERTIO SCOTIA MAGNUS IN MUNDI, ANGLIA VI ET INFERNUM!

THE QUEEN IS HALF SCOTTISH AND HALF GERMAN YOU PLANK
417

Miss Jean Brodie,

12/03/2008 19:45:05
It’s official - The Scots have IT!
418

CROSSED GEORGE,

TOTALLY PROUD TO BE AN ENGLISHMAN 12/03/2008 19:46:19
MacAlba: The Coming Independence (c2007).,12/03/2008 01:09:00
F(_)cking Fabian Socialist, Labour numpties

This will be Labour who are...
Run by SCOTTISH
Dominated by SCOTTISH
Biased to the SCOTTISH
Who have destroyed the UK for the benefit only of the SCOTTISH
Who as a government don't outlaw the SNP as they only seek to break up this country because they are SCOTTISH
Who dish out everyones public money unevenly for the benefit of only the SCOTTISH

Plank
419

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 12/03/2008 19:49:00
John Ruther,West Pennant Hills 12/03/2008 04:44:32
Iam a Scot. Am probably also "prettanic" in a Pictish sense. But I am not "english" or Anglo-Saxon"
. Most definitely the English are not British.

I thought I should just mention this for Mr Goldsmith

QUITE TRUE, IF SCOTTISH ARE NOT BRITISH, WE ARE ALSO ENTITLED TO OUR OWN COUNTRY
420

Geoff,

sa 12/03/2008 19:50:11
465 meths-beetlejuice also a favourite! 466 Meths-melodic!467 the Master-wud be interested to know what u think wen u have seen it.
471Hunky dorey-yes there is much in british law and symbols that clearly need revision yet the establishment seem unable to take the necessary steps to correct things. I include changing the fourth quarter of the Royal arms by removing the duplication of the English lions and inserting a Welsh quarter, xchanging the name of the bank of england to the UK central Bank,instructing our Diplomats overseas to educate the nations of the world not to call britain England,changing Elizabeths title to Eliazabeth the first of gb and Ni,changing the Navys White Ensign to include a blue cross-the flag of england with the colours of scotland etc.. If Gordon brown and Lord G really want to promote Britishness, such simple steps would go a long way. Why cant they see this?
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CROSSED GEORGE,

england 12/03/2008 19:52:21
Peter Kidd,China 12/03/2008 05:43:06
I am Scottish and have worked and lived in many countries, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and am currently teaching at a University in China.
In most of these countries and countries of the world its citizens view the Union Jack, The UK, the Queen and all royalty and the word "British" as English- from England.
The "Act Of The Union" was supposed to be a treaty amongst COUNTRIES of Britain, to be equal in all things and respect each others sovereignty and culture. The English for centuries have been putting themselves first and renegading on the treaty, thus robbing us of our unique identity. Most of the time Scotland has no say in how the country of "The United Kingdom" is run. You just have to look at the Thatcher years when the majority of Scotland did not vote for her. Until recently Scotland felt like-and was treated as second class citizens.Its about time that we as a nation took responsibility of our own destiny. Scotland has given so much to the world and the English have taken all the credit. You'll find the world will welcome us with open arms.

A PROPER SCOT, THINKS IT SO WONDERFUL BUT WILL LIVE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD APART FROM SCOTLAND
422

CROSSED GEORGE,

england 12/03/2008 19:59:44
Over the Top,12/03/2008 16:44:04
How come when I travel abroad with people from Scotland, to countries such as Greece or South America they always say they are English, rarely ever Britsh and never Scottish. It is due to the fact that they have an English heritage and identity like the rest of Britain.

WHY THEY DON'T ADMIT TO BE SCOTTISH, EMBARASSMENT?
423

CROSSED GEORGE,

LITTLE ENGLANDER 12/03/2008 20:02:24
Sgurr,12/03/2008 15:50:40
worst thread in scotsman history. I wonder if anyone gets bored of posting the same inflamatory rubbish day after day? Guess not..

I THOUGHT IT WAS THE NUMBER ONE PASTIME IN SCOTLAND, ESPECIALLY AT OUR EXPENSE
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CROSSED GEORGE,

england 12/03/2008 20:07:25
Russell,linkhills SCOTTISH REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA 12/03/2008 10:54:05
WHAT IS THIS DEBATE SOME KIND OF JOKE ,THE ROYAL FAMILY IS NO MORE SCOTTISH THAN FREDERICK THE GREAT AND THE REQUEST TO SWEAR ALLIEGENCE IS NOTHING SHORT OF CORRUPTION OF FREEDOM OF CHOICE, NO WAY I'M SCOTS AND UNTIL WE FIND OUR RIGHTFUL CROWN WILL REMAIN A REPUBLICAN

Another Scot who was so fed up he moved to the other side of the world
425

CROSSED GEORGE,

LITTLE ENGLANDER 12/03/2008 20:10:00
Allan(handofgod137),12/03/2008 13:55:44
Scottish and British, God Save The Queen. Remember, we Scots have done very well as part of Great Britain.

yes Allan, you have done very well, especially at the expense of the Brits who were cheated by the Hand of God
426

CROSSED GEORGE,

Little Englander 12/03/2008 20:13:11
alanh,ek 12/03/2008 10:16:46
altho I feel Scottish i dont have a problem with an allegiance sort of thing for kids. For now to queen and country and then just for country when we get independance

the only problem is that they are asking for it too late ,imo. It should be targetted at kids when moving from primary school to secondary as then it could give some a feeling of togetherness when they can feel more iscolated.

AND BACK TO QUEEN AND COUNTRY WHEN SALMOND SELLS SCOTLAND UP THE RIVER, BANKRUPTS YOU AND YOU ARE BEGGING FOR US TO BAIL YOU OUT AGAIN
427

Over the Top,

12/03/2008 20:14:20
Are Scottish people unique among Western European countries in the way that they promote another countries language and culture strongly English (that is if Scotland is seperate) and still expects to be seen as being different.
For people who live in a non-English speaking country to recognise ant differene is almost impossible. Can those living in Scotland tell the differences between the Catalans and Spanish speakers in Spain.
428

CROSSED GEORGE,

LITTLE ENGLANDER 12/03/2008 20:14:57
Auld Twa,Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:38:24
Why should anyone want to relinquish their position as a citizen of Scotland to become a subject of the Queen ?

TO MOVE UP IN THE WORLD!
429

CROSSED GEORGE,

LITTLE ENGLANDER 12/03/2008 20:17:48
CROSSED GEORGE,LITTLE ENGLANDER 12/03/2008 20:14:57
Auld Twa,Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:38:24
Why should anyone want to relinquish their position as a citizen of Scotland to become a subject of the Queen ?

TO MOVE UP IN THE WORLD!

I wonder how many Scots will take the above line in capitals as friendly banter, seeing as you are all so keen on "friendly" banter with the English, this is some back, will you take it in good heart?, I await your non-bigoted (some hope) comments.
430

CROSSED GEORGE,

LITTLE ENGLANDER 12/03/2008 20:19:20
the Top,12/03/2008 20:14:20
Are Scottish people unique among Western European countries in the way that they promote another countries language and culture strongly English (that is if Scotland is seperate) and still expects to be seen as being different.
For people who live in a non-English speaking country to recognise ant differene is almost impossible. Can those living in Scotland tell the differences between the Catalans and Spanish speakers in Spain.

SCOTTISH PROMOTE ENGLAND?, FIRST TIME FOR EVERYTHING I SUPPOSE
431

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 12/03/2008 20:20:43
Just think if yon Italian born in Romehad won his illfated attempt to take over the mainland we would all be speaking Itaian, be Catholic and the "Court" would be in France or Italy but thankfully the non gaelic speaking Italian Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart was an idiot with little sense, no battle skills and a very weak following.
432

CROSSED GEORGE,

LITTLE ENGLAND 12/03/2008 20:23:31
The Fly Fifer,Fife 12/03/2008 20:20:43
Just think if yon Italian born in Romehad won his illfated attempt to take over the mainland we would all be speaking Itaian, be Catholic and the "Court" would be in France or Italy but thankfully the non gaelic speaking Italian Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart was an idiot with little sense, no battle skills and a very weak following.


Now then, didn't the Italians as Romans try to invade Scotland on numerous occasions and then did the Scots the ultimate humiliation as building a big wall to keep them out, have you Scots continued a 2000 year vendetta against them like you do against us?

And we are the ones with the problem, yeah right
433

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/03/2008 20:40:12
491 FF - you're making as much sense as Bonnie Prince Charlie's alleged descendant "HRH" prince Michael of Albany.
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Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/03/2008 20:45:29
492 Crossed Dode - history isnae yer best subject,is it pal ?
There were NAE Scots in the land now known as Scotland when Hadrian's Wall was built. The land in the proximity of the Wall was occupied by Welsh-speaking tribes.

Anwyay na