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Scott refuses to back Salmond's referendum bill

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Published Date: 25 October 2009
THE leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Tavish Scott, has declared he "won't be the handmaiden of independence" by backing an immediate referendum on the union, as his leadership of the party goes on the line this week.
In an interview with Scotland on Sunday, Scott said there was no way he would support Alex Salmond's bill for a referendum, which is set to come before the Scottish Parliament next spring.

He was speaking ahead of a special conference of the party
next weekend where many party members are expected to argue that the Lib Dems should agree to a referendum.

In a compromise move, however, Scott's allies last night said they would "never say never" over the longer term, pointing out that if both the question and the circumstances were correct, they "would have to look" at whether to support a vote on the future of the country. As a result, the party may end up agreeing to a referendum in principle, but not that proposed by the SNP for next year.

Scott's position is crucial, because the SNP requires the backing of at least one of its opponents to pass a referendum bill through parliament. Labour and the Conservatives have already said they will block the bill, so if the Liberals oppose it too, Salmond's plans for a referendum on St Andrew's Day will fall.

Scott insisted his position had not changed, despite support from within his own party.

Scott said: "There is no way the Liberal Democrats will be voting for a referendum on independence two months before a general election. That is my idea of a very silly political campaign and one that Mr Salmond would be delighted with. I do not have any interest in playing his games."

"I am not going to be the handmaiden of independence. I won't personally and I know all my colleagues won't," he added.

"I find it despairing about all this, that when the country has real economic difficulties, and I have tried to talk about the disastrous banking failures, instead we end up talking endlessly about the constitution. That is the wrong priority."

The party leader said he "did not expect" to find anyone within his party this week who would back Salmond's referendum schedule. Asked whether he could be forced to resign over the matter, he replied: "I don't think it will get to that."

However, allies fleshed out a compromise plan last night, arguing that while the party would vote down the SNP's referendum plans in the short term, the longer-term case was a different matter. Alastair Carmichael, the leader of the Scottish party's Westminster group said: "You can never say never."

The Lib Dems were opposed to the current SNP plans because they were "biased", he said. He said the bias included the SNP's plan to hold a referendum on St Andrew's Day, and the phrasing of the question they want to ask.

"It should be a straight yes or no question about whether Scotland should remain part of the UK," he said, adding: "If Alex Salmond wants to come back with an honest question and an unbiased procedure then the party would have to look at that."

Writing in Scotland on Sunday today, Culture Minister Mike Russell – who is piloting the bill through parliament – raises the example of broadcaster Sir Ludovic Kennedy.

Russell writes: "While I would not expect all Lib Dem members to share Sir Ludovic's long-standing advocacy of Scottish independence, they would do well to adopt the free-thinking attitude he brought to his political contributions."

He adds: "With two-thirds of Scots and a majority of Lib Dem voters wanting a referendum, he (Scott] might do well to listen to his party's grassroots and support the government's Referendum Bill when it is introduced to parliament next year."

Murdo Fraser MSP, Scottish Conservative deputy leader, said: "Tavish Scott is against a referendum but he seems to have lost control of his party. He needs to prove he is a leader and start challenging Alex Salmond's independence agenda."





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  • Last Updated: 24 October 2009 7:09 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Unelectedbythepeople,

UK 25/10/2009 00:15:51
Labour, Glasgow, Corruption, Gordon Brown, Your tax money:

A close friend of the prime minister who lives with her husband in a £1.5m house in London has claimed £230,000 in expenses by saying a flat in Glasgow is her main home.

Baroness Goudie, a Labour donor and fundraiser, has lived since childhood in London where her two sons grew up and her husband works as a leading barrister.

However, the baroness tells the Lords her main address is 400 miles away in a Glasgow apartment block. A close neighbour said she had not seen Goudie there for some time.

This has allowed Goudie to claim subsistence allowances intended as payments for peers who are based outside the capital and need help to meet the cost of accommodation in London.


On Friday Goudie acknowledged she did not spend much of her time in the Glasgow flat

Goudie, 63, is a leading Labour networker who is a friend of Gordon Brown and his wife Sarah. She is a trustee of Sarah Brown’s charity PiggyBankKids, alongside Paul.

She was one of 18 peers, including Uddin, who were appointed by Tony Blair in 1998 as part of a new Labour move to regain control of the Lords from the Conservative party.

After attending school on the outskirts of London, Goudie lived in Brent where she served as a councillor for several years. She was employed in a series of London-based jobs before becoming a freelance public affairs consultant.

2

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/10/2009 00:18:09
Tavish Scott as a handmaiden. What a gruesome thought.

None of the utterings of either Labour or their Liberal lapdogs mean a thing, they have changed their minds so often it has become boring in the extreme.

No one knows what will happen until the bill is brought forward, not that it will stop us all from speculating.
3

Fifi la Bonbon,

25/10/2009 00:19:35
Well once Tavish Scott reads #1 he's bound to change his mind.
4

Unelectedbythepeople,

UK 25/10/2009 00:29:04
Scotlands paper does not have Scotlands top story?

When is it going to be sold again?

Police relaunch Lockerbie bombing investigation

Detectives have relaunched the investigation into the Lockerbie bombing and are pursuing "several" new lines of inquiry including a fresh analysis of forensic evidence, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/6425205/Police-relaunch-Lockerbie-bombing-investigation.html
5

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/10/2009 00:32:43
3 Fifi you got a total doing on the Jackie Stewart story. I would like to say that in the spirit of female solidarity I defended you but I didn't.

Can I give you a word of advice - when venturing to pass comment on articles relating to sport it is useful to know what you are talking about.
6

,

25/10/2009 00:32:48
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7

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/10/2009 00:36:31
7 Hi Rufus.
8

,

25/10/2009 00:38:58
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9

Unelectedbythepeople,

UK 25/10/2009 00:40:22
Sunday Sleaze = Labour + Labour = SLEAZE your tax money in their pockets

A former Labour Minister who used £60,000 of taxpayers’ money to pay for his parents’ home faces public disgrace after an official inquiry found him guilty of abusing his Commons expenses.
A report into Labour MP Tony McNulty’s conduct by Parliament’s sleaze watchdog, due to be published this week, criticises him for claiming £14,000 a year for a ‘second home’ which was in fact his parents’ main home.
Insiders say he is likely to be forced to make a grovelling apology to the Commons. Some say his offence is so grave he may be suspended from Parliament and could even be ordered to pay back some or all of the cash.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222799/Tony-McNulty-faces-suspension-claiming-14-000-year-expenses-parents-home.html#ixzz0UtrDi5h9
10

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 25/10/2009 00:41:14
Tavish obviously knows exactly what he is told to talk about.
11

,

25/10/2009 00:43:07
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12

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/10/2009 00:49:01
Alistair Carmichael makes a joke: "If Alex Salmond wants to come back with an honest question and an unbiased procedure then the party would have to look at that."
arf arf arf
13

Jimbo2,

25/10/2009 00:58:22
"I am not going to be the handmaiden of independence."

Is this an admission by Scott that he knows the unionists would lose in an independence referendum?
14

R J Boyd,

Glasgow 25/10/2009 01:00:47
Baroness Goudie is not just a Peer of the Realm,
nosireebob !

She's a NEW LABOUR Peer !!

Therefore the poor dear has a Godgiven right to follow in the (somewhat unsteady) footsteps of HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE BARON VON DER FOULKES who is undoubtedly the very model of financial probity - eh Grahamski?

And if Posh Tavish keeps up this slavering display of loyalty to the Union, then he will achieve his ambition of entering the house of lords sooner than he might hope for in his wildest dreams!
15

,

25/10/2009 01:05:34
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16

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/10/2009 01:08:02
14 You are posting late tonight.

I was described as a ''Labour apparatchnik'' on another thread.

Can my GP fix this?
17

Brianwci,

25/10/2009 01:14:46
It's easy to talk tough when you've nothing to lose. But Tavish consider this.

Right now you are in a powerful position to dictate the terms of your support, including your own third question on the ballot.

But by November 13th you might be seen to reacting to an SNP victory in GNE. Worse still, by early next year public opinion and general election opinion polls are likely to be showing growing SNP and Referendum support.....

...probably alongside falling Lib Dem support in Scotland.

Your party can't have its leader running around following public opinion, thus the need for a new leader.

That process could begin as early as November 13th 2009. Face the inevitable Tavish, take the initiative while you can, back the Bill.
18

Fletty,

25/10/2009 01:16:58
Independent Scotland would have a seat at the table Brussels.

What an improved situation to be in.
19

Traquìr,

Alba 25/10/2009 01:22:53
"If Alex Salmond wants to come back with an honest question and an unbiased procedure then the party would have to look at that."

I think we should look to play by 'honest' British rules, which surely will please them :)

I wonder how the Brit Nats would react if the referendum for Scottish Independence was reworded using British tricks of the trade.

"Do you want Scotland to remain in a Union with England ? "

And of course in the interests of "fair play" we introduced the equivalent of the 40% rule :) Now if like Scotland in 1979 they voted in favour (51.6%) with a relatively high turn out (63.8%) that would not be enough, and in fact with the same turn out they would need to get over 62% to pass this referendum,

Indeed just playing the British at their own game, and use their own rules against them is perhaps the obvious elephant in the room that we have been missing. Then we would no doubt hear the howls of abuse that the rules are only meant to be use in favour of the British system and not against it. Utter hypocrisy, but apparently that is the British way :)
20

,

25/10/2009 01:24:54
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21

Fifi la Bonbon,

25/10/2009 01:34:33
#6 - I did not get a doing. I gave my heartfelt and trenchant opinion and was verbally abused by a bunch of random fanboys. Quelle surprise. And motor racing isn't a sport, it's a global industry for gawkers waiting to see the next eejit get incinerated.
22

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

25/10/2009 01:38:22
Jeesh, isn't Traquir terminally boring?
23

Traquìr,

Alba 25/10/2009 01:42:55
Handmaiden

Dictionary definition -

" a person or thing that serves a useful but subordinate purpose "

For the Lib Dems they should not be so quick to dismiss their leader as being a handmaiden. They are certainly adopt a subordinate position like the other Unionist parties in Scotland, but "serving a useful" purpose is somewhat of a stretch. Tavish Scott should wish that he could aspire to being a handmaiden.
24

,

25/10/2009 01:46:12
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25

Traquìr,

Alba 25/10/2009 01:47:25
Interesting the Scotsman manages a veritable cornucopia of negative headlines yet failed to miss such positive stories as carried by the Herald.

"Scotland’s £30bn offshore bounty"

http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/markets-economy/scotland-s-30bn-offshore-bounty-1.928244

This on top of decades more of billions from Scottish Oil & Gas yet rarely reported in this Unionist rag. It is almost as if the British don't want Scots to know about the potential of our own nation,

More Democracy British Style I guess :)
26

Cynicus Unbound,

25/10/2009 01:48:05

"Scott refuses to back Salmond's referendum bill"-HEADLINE

Aha! But read the story.

An equally valid headline would be:

TAVISH SCOTT AND LIBDEMS TO BACK INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM

It comes down to nuts and bolts of wordingand timing.

This is seriously bad news for Eck and the NATS. There is a real prospect that an amended bill will be carried by Holyrood which is the last thing the NATS want.
27

UK cant pay its way ,

Scotland 25/10/2009 01:51:38
handmaiden eh

seems Tavish saying referendum would be won for Scotland by the SNP

but he is not being very democratic -- further poll slippage for lib dums
28

Fletty,

25/10/2009 01:55:42

Scotland is controlled from London.

What a daft situation to be in.
29

,

25/10/2009 01:56:56
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30

MacFloyd,

Union Kon 25/10/2009 01:59:02
"Yes" or "No" is the format of the proposed referendum, so who's this "rigged" business supposed to convince? Are we so thick as to think a vote be "rigged" when it hasn't been held? Will Tavish then ensure that the UN oversee the count?

As I understand it the SNP's question doesn't follow the devolution referendum in splitting the question with "tax-raising" (or tax altering) follow-ups designed to "status-quo" the ballots of the less-than-literate. Will Tavish present his "unbiased", "liberal" and "democratic" formulation of the national question?

Step forward Rufus / the "group captain" / fifi / Justin - how should the "unbiased" question look, exactly? Once the UK of GB & NI catches up with the "arc of recovery" nations and we're allowed to consider our own future how would you address the national question?

Let me get the ball rolling for you with this:

"Britain should be broken (as well as broke) and Scotland ripped, wrenched, divorced, torn, separated and isolated from her "best wee country" position within a 302-year-old union (remember the tercentenary celebration?) to cope with the managing of her troublesome and volatile oil resources all by herself in her uncivil, parochial little 3rd world"
- I agree
- I disagree


We're not smart enough to look at the constitution during a recession (that's a multi-task too far) but we should be grateful that within an archaic political system we can pretend to be hard enough to push a war in Afghanistan (during a recession). British vanity is important, and the Scottish economy has nothing to do with a constitutional issues like control over resources, involvement in wars and having a voice in Europe (you know, like Luxembourg)
31

Dunnie,

Canada 25/10/2009 02:04:23
23 Fifi - in terms of your illiteracy and infantile commentary on F1 racing history - especially concerning two of the greatest drivers - Jimmy Clark and Jackie Stewart - you did get a doing. You should be so sore you shouldn't be able to walk tomorrow. Fifi - your moronic postings made you roadkill.
32

langtonian,

uphall 25/10/2009 02:21:40
Touch of deja-vue regarding referendum bill;some weeks since all other parties indicated "cold shoulder" for referendum "nonsense"bill.

Usual SNP "sweetie wifing gossipy" side tracking away from reality.

Reality being SNP have gone very "polsterquiet" relative winning the up and coming Glasgow Westminster parliamentary seat.

Loss of that, subsequent to Glenrothes defeat suggests a losing streak,creating difficult/problematical cycle from which to prevent a nose dive, spinning out of control to political oblivion.

Things can only get better.
33

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2009 02:46:59

It all does not matter, as Tavish Scott, does not come into the equations, of what our X on the Box will be!,
We only have two major players in ou next general election in Scotland, and that is of Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown.


34

redcliffe62,

25/10/2009 04:14:26
there are 59 scottish seats and glasgow north east is one of the safest, having been held by red rosetters for 70 years.
many are politivally illiterate and would not know what issuees wered evolved and those which relate to westminster. so any campaigning really has to be at a basic daily record-like level.
an improved result is required from the snp, but realistically with 45% officially ill and 33% on benefits labour has a built in supporter base that will never leave it.
35

,

25/10/2009 04:39:45
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36

,

25/10/2009 04:42:40
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37

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 25/10/2009 04:48:25
Next Year Salmond says the "numbers don't add up" and they will abandon the bill for a referendum. They have previous on this.
38

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 25/10/2009 06:18:05
The LibDems will support the Referendum when they are offered Fiscal Autonomy as a third option.

They are becoming increasingly irrelevant and are headed the same way as the Tories.

They will support a 3 choice referendum because it makes them feel like their opinions actually matter.
39

Ben Thehoose,

25/10/2009 06:45:59
The Lib Dems and I agree that the way ahead is a GB Federation, and neither a union nor a fake 'independence in Europe'.

Why is the Third Way being excluded? Cui bono?
40

Linda,

Edinburgh 25/10/2009 07:16:55
Many Liberals such as Ludovic Kennedy believed in Scottish independence. But the new Lib Dems are not Liberal nor Democratic by not allowing a referendum.

Also stupid as only by joining with the SNP will they get a local income tax and proper PR.
41

,

25/10/2009 07:39:36
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42

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 25/10/2009 08:04:18
Surely the point to pick up here is that Scott in saying he doesn't want to be the handmaiden of independence is tacitly admitting to the fear that the Unionists could lose the referendum.
43

,

25/10/2009 08:04:44
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44

LEAL,

25/10/2009 08:04:46
I really cant understand this stance.I understand Tavish doesnt want independence,but he seems to be saying he doesnt want to do anything to facilitate independence even if the people want it.And that seems to be at odds with the whole Libdem philosophy.
It seems the unionist parties are just holding off a referendum as long as possible in the hope something will happen to make the Scots feel British again.
45

Queen D,

25/10/2009 08:17:24
"THE leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Tavish Scott, has declared he "won't be the handmaiden of independence"

Kinda camp doncha think?
Not that there is anything wrong with camp , I hasten to add!
46

mr broon,

Edinburgh 25/10/2009 08:17:33
Why are the Scots Unionist politicians so afraid of biting the bullet and ending this uncertainty?

The vast majority of Scots are perfectly happy with the present constitutional arrangement.

However, unfortunately for the Scots Unionist parties, the Nationalists are not going to disappear like snaw aff a' dyke, and are now embedded in Scottish AND UK politics.

In the future, the Scots should not be in the least surprised to find Labour forming a coalition Scottish Government with the Nationalist Party, like that which already exists in the Welsh Assembly Government between Labour and Plaid?

The Scots now have the best of both worlds.


At present, the Scots have the best of both worlds.



47

BIG EYE,

Paisley 25/10/2009 08:51:59
Tavish is in danger of becoming the Sir Alec Douglas Hume of the Liberal Party.

He was the guy who was wheeled out to promise a "better devolution bill" in order to head off support for devolution. It never appeared of course and it was the end of Sir Alec and the Tories in Scotland.

Tavish seems to be planning an action replay on behalf of the Liberal Party.

Sad really
48

TWC,

exLabour 25/10/2009 09:17:59
Tavish tryingto escape out the back door again, Liberals running away from Federal option when this is possibly the ONLY time they will ever get this chance.

Liberlas live up to their name
49

Pilrig.,

Livingston 25/10/2009 09:18:13
10 Sam frae the Black Lagoon : )
50

Pilrig.,

Livingston 25/10/2009 09:19:16
26 stop talkin tae yersel'
51

,

25/10/2009 09:21:01
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52

Pilrig.,

Livingston 25/10/2009 09:21:03
31 better a dependent Scotland controlled frae London and Brussels, eh ?
53

lulach mac gille coemgain,

25/10/2009 10:16:56
Tavish Scott, has declared he "won't be the handmaiden of independence"

so he knows independence is coming then ?

54

,

25/10/2009 10:21:36
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lulach mac gille coemgain,

25/10/2009 10:54:34
ask an englishman if he thinks his country should be run from Brussels
56

billalba,

fife 25/10/2009 12:24:42
It wouldnt matter if you asked an englishman that as they have a say in europe whilst we don't.. They are in the EU and are therefore ruled by the EU or are you saying that Scotland who have no say in the EU will be treated differently to England when we become a full member?
57

livilion,

livingston 25/10/2009 12:24:46

Aye gaunyersel Tavish, you stick to your guns, there's only 70-80% of the electorate you need to convince don't want their say on Scotland's constitutional future.
As Sir Humphrey would've said: very brave of you indeed.
Shades of Michael Foot's longest suicide note in history?

I'm sure Mr Salmond and his followers will be forever in your debt for this principled stand, come the general election.

Remember Nicol Stephen?
Your party, under your leadership, is heading the same way, irrelevant and forgotten.


Go home to your constituency and prepare for, lunch.
58

livilion,

livingston 25/10/2009 12:32:02
58 billalba,fife
Most 'Englishmen' have no say in the running of their own country, certainly more true the farther you radiate out from the M25, that is reserved for a tiny self serving clique in Whitehall, who blaim their failures on a tiny self serving clique in Brussels.

We Scots simply wish to cut out those disinterested Whitehall middlemen and replace them with our own, in a place where we can keep tabs on them and hold them to account.

We are talking politicians, let's face it. Better the devil you know...
59

Alan B,

25/10/2009 12:46:05
It is good to see that Tavish Scott seems to be losing the support of his party in rejecting democracy.

Scott seems all over the place.

One minute he is saying he is against a referendum in principle. New he is saying it is the timing and next it is the propopals by the snp. The last particularly daft as the snp have already said they will have an open mind for a 3rd question on lib dem style dev max.

If scott has a problem with question he just has to say he will support a referendum but only under the following conditions. ie question and whether a 3rd question will be included.

The lib dems really have to get their act together. At the moment they off nothing.
60

Alan B,

25/10/2009 12:51:11
Scotts economic comments are silly.

What is the point in the sp talking about economic policies they have not power to implement.

The lib dems position is to devolve these powers. But scott is saying that talking about economic actions you have no power to implement, rather than prioritising devolution of economic and then taking action with these powers is somehow better. Completely daft.

The unionists are ham strung at the moment over scotlands economy. Cannot admit it failings as it admits the failure of the union. Cannot come up with solution as it would involve admitting the economic failings. And cannot talk about devolving economic powers to deal with failing and propose a solution as it would mean those advocating change and devolution of economic powers eg those advocating independence were correct.

What a mess.
61

Alan B,

25/10/2009 12:55:16
#48 mr broon

"The vast majority of Scots are perfectly happy with the present constitutional arrangement."

How do you work that out? The opinion polls suggest over 70% want vastly more powers for the scottish parliament.

62

langtonian,

uphall 25/10/2009 12:55:32
It is so so simple;repeated over the past few weeks on many many ocassions.

Westminster elections are due in some ten months time scale;;All parties can include in their manifesto whatever they deem will get them elected.

The party that wins that election will not need any referendum.

The 2011 Holyrood election one year later will be influenced by the result of the Westminster election in2010.

That for me eliminates the need for a referenda.

Perhaps I have a blind spot;or is it just the case there is spendthrift mania abroad;lets have a referenda despite the fact it is not necessary.

Plodding, yet again through a juvenile no win referenda,for any party, seems quite without merit.

The questions can all be answered from within party manifestoes in 2010 and2011full stop.......
63

Jo Public,

25/10/2009 13:41:40
Tavish is like his party. A joke.
64

European Scot,

25/10/2009 13:43:16
64 langtonian

"Perhaps I have a blind spot;or is it just the case there is spendthrift mania abroad;lets have a referenda despite the fact it is not necessary."

The question of independence will not be answered by an election, not at a General election, nor at a Scottish election.
That can only be done through having a referendum, with specific questions being put to the people of Scotland.

As has already been pointed out, the majority of Scots want a referendum.
So what right do you, or any political Party have in denying Scots that choice ?
What are you Unionists so frightened of, could it be the truth ?

Is that your blind spot langtonian ?
65

Frank Spencer and Betty,

25/10/2009 14:10:14
Of course the unionist parties do not want independence or a referendum on independence. If Scotland becomes independent then they would lose their funding from England and would have to stand on their own two feet and become Scottish. What would happen to these parties then as their wee cult supporters on here would be too horrified to support any party that was Scottish and they would lose their support.

Horrifying thoughts for unionists having to stand on their own two feet and having to support Scottish parties that don't rely on another country for their funding.
66

Alan B,

25/10/2009 14:39:43
#64langtonian

Firstly that depends on whether a party believe that constitutional issues should be determined by parliament or a referendum.

All the 4 big parties support referenda now. But only when it suits their cause which is the fundamental problem it is not to allow the people to choose. eg european issues etc.

So you do not support refenda. Ok. So are you saying if the snp win a majority of the number of scottish seat they can automatically have independence. Would the tories or labour or lib agree with you.

Personally i support a referendum as i think it is the only fair way. If you go on a parliamentary vote in which their are many issues. And hence voted on the basis of many issues and not just independence.

But lets say the snp win the largest number of seats at the next general election in scotland. The voting system means that you do not have to win the majority of the vote (unlike a referendum). And it can absurd like the last general election where labour won more seats but lost the popular vote.

Taken to it logical conclusion you are arguing that the party that loses the popular vote but wins the largest number of seats will win the constitutional argument and not the majority of voters.


67

karin Mac,

25/10/2009 16:05:27
the lib dems can vote for a referendum or not vote for it. At the end of the day it doesnt matter because if they dont vote to give the people a choice then the people will make their choice clear.
68

hoblar,

25/10/2009 16:59:42
he liberals are lucky to get a headline, particularly this one where they are "floundering around clueless"-that should be the headline.

Langtonian likes to tell people in Scotland what they want, what their political aspirations are, he lives in a wee dreamworld (not in Uphall).

He talks about "manifestos" being the leading light......what, like the constitutional status quo manifesto commitment that Labour pushed and lost on in the Scottish Elections 2007?

Labour tried their hand, hoping to scrape through in the Scottish parliament and tell us all, (like Langtonian still does) that we don't want change.

Well, Labour fiddled while their Rome burned, famously losing their 50 years of hegemony in Scotland, and Scotland's future won't be decided by the sort oif folk who STILL campaign on the status quo-and if Labour have changed their mind on that it is because Scotland's voters didn't give them a choice.

Therefore why would we be led by labour or even listen to them?

The answer is that we wouldn't.
69

livilion,

livingston 25/10/2009 18:29:20
The parties who reckon they know what is good for us, and choose to deny the 70-80% who want their say in an independence referendum, can explain their position during the upcoming general election and Holyrood campaigns.

I will listen with interest to the argument that I must vote, but only if they say I can, and if it is to vote for them.

As my old da would say: 'Aye right! gaun diddywhelk'

I remember fondly Westminster falling over itself to court Scottish voters who elected 11 SNP MPs back in the 70s, I can only wonder at the reaction returning 20 will promt.
70

Pilrig.,

Livingston 25/10/2009 19:17:50
Tavish Scott - the George Cunningham o' oor time.
71

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 25/10/2009 21:08:09
Lib Dems = Yawn ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. An irrelevence in Scottish politics and will soon have as many MSPs as the Greens
72

langtonian,

uphall 25/10/2009 21:47:56
Eureka! I do appreciate variouse posters comments relative to my posting at 64 regarding referenda,their point,their need to have,the advantage for all, Scots voters to have their individual,personal franchise becoming meaningfull.

So lets have a referenda vote(never ever thought I would give that a nod of approval).

There would be two questions.A&B.

A) Scotland would become a singular Nationalistic Independant country;totaly outwith the parameters of The United Kingdom.This will include severance of all ties with Westmister,The setting up of a total governance,which will include taxation.all defence matters,health service.In addition all matters relative road,rail and air travel.Fishing and rural(farming) will become, along with all cutural matters be totaly the responsibility for Holyrood to oversee.

B).Prefer to remain within overall shared committment to all things relative to the United Kingdom as it at present stands.


Please put one tick against either A or B to indicate your preferance.

Do consider very carefully prior to making your selection as the result of the vote is irrevocable.
73

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 25/10/2009 22:43:05
lANGTONIAN DOONHILL,

What an amount of keach you spew, Manifesto's written by the unionist parties ' as we all know' are not worth the toilet paper they are written on, short on memory are you?
74

hoblar,

25/10/2009 22:46:14
"The Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state."

The wording of the question is based legally on the current powers of the Scottish Government and that includes the way this question is asked.

The silly first question above by the rather desperate unionist langtonian sounds more like some daftie inferring that we would be declaring war on England, and is particularly misinformed because, of course, the United Kingdom won't exist without Scotland.

There is no legal mechanism for what was formerly British to somehow by default become English. (or Welsh or Northern irish considering that there is no proof that they would cling on to Westminster)

The UK won't exist should Scotland vote yes to becoming an autonomous self governing country.

Those are the facts. ;-)
75

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 25/10/2009 22:47:38

Ma Broon in Court re Lie bore's manifesto

http://thejournal.parker-joseph.co.uk/blog/_archives/2008/2/7/3511056.html#
76

Grahamski,

Falkirk 25/10/2009 23:35:50
77

Oh lordy, looks like the SNP have pressed the 'childish' button. Lie bore? Dear god it'll be mr poopie pants next....
77

Anna nexr door,

25/10/2009 23:55:22
7, your point?
78, how are things in Surrey?
78

hoblar,

26/10/2009 00:02:56
"The Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an Independent state."

Yes

or

No

Simple.

The unionist parties, the rather dreaded and politically dreadful Labour Libdem and Tory bunch of losers constantly inform us that they have it in the bag anyway and they also ignore that whether voting Aye or Nay, that about 70% of Scots wish to have an Independence Referendum.
79

,

26/10/2009 00:16:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

,

26/10/2009 00:29:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

langtonian,

uphall 26/10/2009 00:32:14
I am encouraged by postings subequent to the A&Bsuggeted simple voting document (#74;(which I do concurr requieres some modest tinkering to get the correct legal jargonese spot on).

There is no malice of forethought;no hidden agenda,given "modest tinkering"what you see is what you get.

With little effort the matter could be settled by Christmas day.

Without giving away my own particular franchise useage, the result I expect would reveal a celebratory boxing day;the likes of which would greatly add to the seasonal festive atmosphere generated,leading up to a Hogmany into 2010 with the small matter of "independance or not" a done deal;and all could look forward to a New Year of clear water politicising ahead .
82

langtonian,

uphall 26/10/2009 01:11:04
Can I reccommend a sport, which is also an art, to all and sundry.

"Kite" flying;with this exemplary sporting interest comes several advantages.
1)One does not have to exert a great deal of movement to gain a high flying perspective of many things;as an example lets take political matters;these if viewed from a heightened "kite" perspective become more benign,less fraught,unhindered from "angst and cant" politics takes on a whole new panoramic visionary style.
"2)The few other exponents of the"kite" art that gather for joint sessions, are easily discernable;far from the maddening crowd; of ground based,fixed position low flying miniscule perspective perpetraors of pap:,true "kite" flyers are ahead of the "game" in all aspects.


There is a launch date coming up for a school of learning to "fly by the seat of you'r pant,s" or to keep the gender cop's happy knickers.We are nothing if not all encompassing; in moving political theorising forward toward 2010.
Aesop 2.



83

livilion,

livingston 26/10/2009 08:11:53
#83 langtonian,uphall

I am interested in your notion that party manifestos should decide the Scottish constitutional position.

Given that of the over 600 Westminster seats up for grabs only 59 are in Scotland, with respect, the London parties could put in their election manifestos that all Scots will in future have to wear Jimmy-wigs in public, take compulsory Morris Dancing courses and there would be he-haw that a Scottish electorate could do about it.

On the other hand: if Scotland returned 30 or more SNP MPs then it would be: go past referendum, collect your country and proceed directly to independence.
There would be he-haw the government of a United Kingdom of England & N.I could do about that.

Ok, not likely this time round, but give it four or five years of austerity government under Cameron's Home County Tories, then what will the odds against be?

 

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