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Scots rape laws 'worst in world'



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Published Date: 05 March 2008
THE Lord Advocate, Elish Angiolini, yesterday launched a fierce attack on Scotland's rape laws, blaming them for the country's internationally low conviction rate.
Elish Angiolini, Scotland's Lord Advocate, has suggested that the requirement for corroboration should be watered down in an effort to increase the number of rape convictions. Picture: Neil Hanna
Elish Angiolini, Scotland's Lord Advocate, has suggested that the requirement for corroboration should be watered down in an effort to increase the number of rape convictions. Picture: Neil Hanna
Speaking at a major conference on sexual offences, she rejected accusations that prosecutors in Scotland were lagging behind other nations in their handling of rape cases – despite that fact the country has one of the world's lowest conviction rates for the crime.

Scotland's top prosecutor suggested one of the pillars of the legal system – the requirement for corroboration – should be watered down to boost the number of rape convictions.

In doing so, she goes further than the Scottish Law Commission which, after its review of rape laws, stopped short of proposing a relaxation of the need for corroboration.

Only about 3.9 per cent of reported rapes in Scotland end in conviction. This is one of the lowest rates in the world, comparing with 5.6 per cent in England and Wales, and 8.2 per cent in Germany.

Widespread concern over the conviction rate is fuelling a drive to reform the law on rape, with the Scottish Government set to announce a raft of changes. A new sexual-offences bill will be unveiled later this year, following the publication of a report last month that recommended the crucial concept of consent be defined in law for the first time.

Ms Angiolini told a Rape Crisis Scotland conference that the country's rape laws were "among the most restrictive in the western world".

She said: "The requirement for corroboration is almost unique in Scots law. It is a fundamental principle of our legal system, and it is the reason why about one-third of all reported rapes are thrown out.

"What we need to do in Scotland is determine if this rule is appropriate and if it needs to be adjusted."

She went on: "It is not for me as Lord Advocate to decide on whether the requirement for corroboration should be retained – but if we are serious about reforming the law in this area, the question is at the heart of the debate and is one which we cannot avoid."

The Scottish Government has asked the Law Commission to review the law on evidence, which is regarded as one of the biggest hurdles to securing a rape conviction. Scotland is one of the few countries that requires there to be corroborative evidence before a case can be put to the jury. Ms Angiolini said the law as it stood presented "real problems" for victims of rape – but claimed the Law Commission's proposals alone would make little difference to the conviction rate.

"We must be realistic about the impact which reform of the substantive law alone will achieve, and I am therefore heartened that the cabinet secretary for justice has asked the Law Commission to review the law of evidence. Only reform of both the substantive law and the law of evidence combined will provide us with a sound framework within which to tackle attrition."

One of the ways prosecutors can overcome the corroboration hurdle is by applying the so-called Moorov rule, which allows for numerous alleged victims of similar crimes at the hands of an accused to corroborate each others' evidence. But Ms Angiolini said that courts generally allowed the rule to apply only where the offences took place over just a few years.

The Lord Advocate, who has previously attracted controversy for speaking out on other issues, including the collapse of the World's End murder trial, said she believed the Moorov doctrine should be extended to help prosecutors prove more sex crimes.

"I do consider that Moorov should be extended … to include, for example, someone who abuses younger siblings, then goes on to abuse their own children, and, eventually, their own grandchildren, over a period of 20 or 30 years," she said.

Ms Angiolini said one reason why Scotland appeared to lag behind other countries in conviction rates was because of what was classed as rape. "Comparing the conviction rate with other countries is like comparing apples with pears," she said. "We're simply not talking about the same crime.

"But when you look at the more general conviction rate, it's not very different."

She highlighted the law in New York, where a man over the age of 21 who has consensual sex is committing rape if the female is under 17. Most other western countries also class sodomy and oral penetration as rape.

"We're not social pariahs or a backwater, which might be inferred from the conviction rate. It's just that the definition is so narrow," she said.

Ms Angiolini pledged to improve the way prosecutors handle rape cases, revealing that, by summer 2009, every Crown Office representative will have to undergo special training before they can take charge of a rape prosecution.

Fiona Raitt, professor of evidence at Dundee University law school, said vast numbers of rape victims would continue to be denied justice unless the requirement for corroboration was removed.

But Donald Findlay, QC, one of the country's leading advocates, said last night that any significant weakening of the need for corroboration would be a dangerous attack on Scotland's legal system that would result in more wrongful convictions.

"Just look at what's happened in England, and see how many people have to be released after serving very long terms of imprisonment for crimes they did not commit," he said. "That tells you how important the requirement for corroboration is. I don't believe you can make any exceptions on corroboration for rape or any other crimes."

Mr Findlay also criticised the plan to create a definition of consent.

"If you wish to have a statutory definition of consent, I would need some persuading that a civil servant could do a better job of formulating that than an experienced High Court judge," he said.

Scenarios created to 'clear up confusion' over issue of consent

LAST December, the Scottish Law Commission published recommendations which would lead to the most wide-reaching reform of sexual-offence laws in the country's history.

The plans would see the concept of consent in rape cases clearly defined in statute for the first time.

The commission said it was time to "clear up the confusion" surrounding consent, a key issue in trials, which is currently left up to jury members to define.

Gerry Maher, QC, who led the review, said at the time: "The law has to make absolutely clear that, just because someone is very drunk, they are not consenting to having sex."

Under the proposals, seven different scenarios in which a woman cannot be judged to have agreed to sexual activity will be laid down in law. They cover scenarios where she is intoxicated through drink or drugs, or has been threatened.

New crimes of sexual assault and sexual coercion, each carrying a maximum sentence of life imprisonment, would also be created.

The SNP government is expected to publish a new bill based on the recommendations in the spring.

The Scottish Law Commission's proposals are that consent will be defined in law as "free agreement" and non-consent scenarios will be stated in law. Seven possible situations are suggested so far:

1 The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances and, as a result, lacks the capacity to consent, unless consent has been given earlier.

2 The person is unconscious or asleep and has not earlier given consent.

3 The person agrees or submits to sex as they are subjected to violence or the threat of violence.

4 The person agrees or submits to sex as he or she is unlawfully detained.

5 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity".

6The person agrees to the act because the accused impersonates someone known to the alleged victim.

7 The only expression of agreement is made by someone other than the alleged victim.

The definition of rape will become gender-neutral, so male rape will be recognised as such.

An accused's belief that a woman consented will have to be "reasonably held" by him.

New offences of rape against children and people with a mental disorder will also be created.


Clearer definition welcome but convictions will still be difficult

I THINK the general mood is that the law commission has done a very good job in putting forward proposals for a statutory definition of rape that is much clearer than the existing common law.

However, the problems they themselves might recognise is how you will prove the constituent parts of rape.

For example, under these proposals, the man must have a "reasonable belief" that the woman consented.

But there will be great difficulties in proving what is a "reasonable" belief, and therefore difficulty in proving consent.

The commission has produced a list of factual scenarios where, if the situation exists, there is deemed to be no consent and therefore the crime of rape has been committed.

For example, if a man has sex with a woman who is "very drunk", she has no capacity to consent and so that is rape.

But how will you prove that she was very drunk?

If that happened at 2am on a Saturday night and she decided on Tuesday to go to the police, that won't take you very far.

It may be that you've got a bartender who says, "Yes, I sold her 14 vodkas in an hour".

But in the absence of corroboration, there will be difficulty with proof.

The proposals are a good step.

They can clarify the definition and have an educative purpose for young people and others.

But in terms of proving it in court, the need for corroboration in Scotland will always be a major hurdle.

At (yesterday's] conference, hosted by Rape Crisis Scotland, a panel of speakers in the closing session acknowledged corroboration was a hurdle.

However, the panel thinks there may also be other ways to circumvent the problem of proof.

For example, while you could not force the accused to go into the witness box to explain why he thought a woman had consented to have sex, you might permit the court to draw negative inferences from that refusal.

• Fiona Raitt is professor of evidence at Dundee University's school of law.

Internet clip of sex assault spurs call for crackdown

THE horrific ordeal of a young mother who was allegedly gang raped in front of her children then suffered the humiliation of having the attack posted on YouTube has led to calls for tougher monitoring of the internet.

Last night internet monitoring groups and politicians called on providers to "clean up their act" immediately or face stringent legislation.

The main problem is that while internet sites such as YouTube have a "report as unsuitable" option and a 24-hour team dealing with complaints, they cannot stop offensive material being posted.

The 25-year-old woman's ordeal took place in her home after, she believes, her glass of champagne was spiked. In the video, her two children, aged two and four, can be heard clearly screaming and whimpering in fear.

Three months later a three-minute clip of the attack was posted on the YouTube video sharing website. The mobile phone footage was watched by 600 people but none of them reported it to the police.

The victim, from south London, appears to be unconscious while her attackers laugh into the camera.

Eventually she heard rumours about the footage and reported it to the police. Three youths have been arrested but no charges have been brought yet.

The scale of the internet "policing" operation can be seen against a backdrop where a site such as YouTube claims its clips are viewed 100 million times every day, with ten hours of footage added a minute.

Sarah Robertson, communications manager at Internet Watch Foundation, said: "We operate a UK hotline for people to report unsuitable material, including criminally obscene and depraved acts, child sexual abuse and racial abuse.

"If the material has originated in the UK it's dealt with very quickly. But while we may have done our job here in the UK a lot of material is hosted in the US and Russia by very computer-savvy criminals.

"Policing the internet is difficult. You can't act like old-fashioned police and just go and knock on a door."

Bill Aitken, Tory justice spokesman, said: "The benefits of the internet and technology have been immense but the downside is seen clearly and ever more frequently where people are prepared to record the most objectionable material and disseminate it.

"This is totally unacceptable and the providers carry a responsibility. They need to get their own house in order or the day may well come where legislation has to be considered.

A spokesman for the Internet Service Providers Association said internet users had a duty to report inappropriate material.

But Dr Peter Kemp, director of information services and expert on IT security at the University of Stirling, said the technological realities of the internet made policing ISPs extremely difficult.

"The difficulty lies in the way the internet was designed, which makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to police the whole enterprise," he said.

"ISPs are a series of computers whose job is to pass traffic through them as quickly as possible. A picture or words will be broken up into lots of little pieces, even passing through from different routes, meaning they can't police incomplete information.

"A company like YouTube does take complaints reasonably seriously and will deal with complaints quickly. If offensive material is posted on a site set up by individuals, you can find out who the internet provider is and under these circumstances the provider will cut the line.

"But ultimately the responsibility lies with the individual to report the material. The law is on your side."

SHAN ROSS



The full article contains 2319 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 March 2008 8:06 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

05/03/2008 00:25:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

TommyKaye,

UK 05/03/2008 00:25:52
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Sudan
etc etc Scotland the worst?
3

Resolutions,

05/03/2008 00:27:28
Maybe Scots Law is of world standard, but if a case does not get the length of the court, because of short comings elsewhere in the system, it falls short in this case.
4

,

05/03/2008 00:41:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

!Ya basta!,

05/03/2008 02:40:25
I think we need to untangle this a bit.

The headline is from the journalist and as pointed out above is clearly incorrect and is also not what was said.

The conviction rates for rape are too low and cause for serious concern for all of us. I think everybody knows that cases collapse too early in the process and that oftne there is not a full and proper hearing.

Reducing rigour to help improve the conviction rate is dangerous. However, this same rigour may in fact be a barrier to justice, which is the ultimate aim. Rape is an extremely difficult and special area and we needs special consideration. On balance I think a review (which is all Angioliini is calling for at this stage) is a good idea.

I do agree with Encarta that Crown prosecutors need better training - though this is identified in the article.

6

indune1,

05/03/2008 02:55:02
4 - Resolutions -

Length of . . . shortcomings ... falls short of ...?

We are talking of Scottish courts, are we not?
7

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 05/03/2008 03:33:48
As a non-resident I cannot comment on Scots Law but a very low conviction rate for rape in Scotland is surely cause for reflection/review. The word "rape" has been dropped from the legal lexicon in many countries; sexual assault is a more contemporary term. Perhaps an update in thinking is required.
8

Solidarity supporter,

north berwick 05/03/2008 05:09:52
Perhaps if Lothians and Borders Police didnt deploy on average 14 police officers for over a year, and spend over 40,000 hours and £1 million pounds trying to prosecute Tommy Sheridan they might improve their miserable clear up rate of 4% on rape!
9

Royster,

05/03/2008 05:49:42
Replace corroboration with a lie detector. Increase penalties for false accusations. 'Conviction rate' is a stalinist term.
10

Pomodora,

Gravesend 05/03/2008 06:06:01
Rape is a violent crime committed against a woman or a man which has social,psychological, physical and life threatening cosequences. In some states in the US it carried the death penalty and now the incarceration period can be up to life and life without parole for re-offennders. Sexual assault is a mamby-pamby term which often just carries a slap on the wrist. Rape, unlike non pre-meditaed murder, is always an intentional act of violence and should carry the full weight of the law to its maximum capacity.
11

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/03/2008 06:20:14
2 - it's the wicked hussies who lead men on etc etc....
12

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 05/03/2008 06:33:07
#13 Rape deserves life in prison as an absolute minimum, some surgery with a rusty knife, etc
13

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2008 06:36:07
"She highlighted the law in New York, where a man over the age of 21 who has consensual sex is committing rape if the female is under 17."

In Scotland, a couple of 21 and 16 could be married, yet Elish Angiolini would have their normal sexual relationship considered as rape.

Do we really need a heterophobe for a Lord Advocate?
14

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/03/2008 06:41:05
Lose corroboration and a lot of innocents will be sent to jail by the vindictive.

The 7 scenarios plus protection of the vulnerable seem very good, but it's too easy to cry rape when the cry really should be I made a mistake.
15

walter,

05/03/2008 08:04:32
#14
No it is not, rape is a heinous crime and the perpetrators should be castrated.
I have said before No means No but rape crisis Scotland also want Yes to mean No.
The laws are there to convict rapists they need to be used not changed.
16

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 05/03/2008 08:27:56
quote:
"1 The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances and, as a result, lacks the capacity to consent, unless consent has been given earlier."

Firstly - probably 90% of people having sex have also consumed alchohol - whether it is a quiet candle-lit dinner for two or cans of lager behind the bus shelter.

Secondly - how can one later prove that "consent has been given"? Do people have to carry a minidisc recorder and ask a formal question before proceeding? It could be a real passion killer! Do couples now have to have a lawyer by the bedside - or - let me see - a new government funded quango - called "Informed Consent" - where you both phone up and lodge/ swear a commitment to safe sex within the next ten minutes?

If a society abandons all the moral codes of its ancestors - as this one has done in less than 30 years - it does not bring freedom or happiness. Just an avalanche of abortions; a plague of gonnorhoea, chlamydia, syphilis and AIDS, hers of single parent families and millions of divorces. Still, no doubt the condom waving 'relationship advisers' will say - we're all 'freer'.
17

Boab,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 08:29:00
Rape currently carries a sentence of three to eight years, less than the sentences which have recently been given out for fraud or smuggling cannabis.

But getting back to the headline, I think we could do with specialist courts for rape such as in the USA.
18

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 08:32:53
Can anyone clarify for me, is it 3.9% of REPORTED rapes that ends in convitions or 3.9% of cases that come to court? There's a big difference. If it's the former, the low figure is no surprise. The number of spurious, if not false allegations is significant, usually linked to excess alcohol consumption.
19

brownlie,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 08:41:08
In my opinion those who run brothels where women are forced to have sex should also be charged with aiding and abetting rape and sentenced accordingly. I also, cannot believe that the "customers" are not aware that the women involved are doing so against their will. By the same token, pimps. who force women onto the streets, should also be charged with a more serious offence.
20

Miss Dee,

Tayside 05/03/2008 08:56:07
Maybe it's just a matter of will. After all, we wouldn't stand for a 3 percent conviction rate for bank robbers.
21

Gothic Rose,

05/03/2008 09:01:12
10#Helene.
How dainty.Rape is Rape is...Sexual assault can be of varying degrees.Terminology is NOT what it is about.
22

seanie,

05/03/2008 09:04:58
#16 "In Scotland, a couple of 21 and 16 could be married, yet Elish Angiolini would have their normal sexual relationship considered as rape."

No. That's not what she was saying.

Try reading the article again and this time try to understand it.
23

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2008 09:24:54
Re #28 : I don't really see the sense in "highlighting" something (as opposed to "mentioning" or "contrasting" it) unless you think it's a good idea.

Still, I can see that the passage concerned can be interpreted in different ways.
24

voltaire's janny,

05/03/2008 09:26:13
Here we go again.

The problem is the definition of rape. Recent "clarifcation" of the definition of consent appear to the public to make trying it on after three vodkas the same crime (rape) as beasting a minor in a public park.

The absolutism around the cry of rape is inappropriate and juries will respond if their sense of natural justice is violated.

An explicit menu of acts, degrees of coercion and, yes, behaviour of victim are all part of the picture in establishing the nature of the crime. Corroboration is about showing the alleged offence actually took place.

I have no issue with accumulating circumstantial evidence against serial offenders - this goes a long way to establish guilt, but in a one off "he says/she says", no corroboration is no proof and the accused must go free without a stain on his character, though his life will likely be damaged regardless.

Corroboration is not a dispensible element of jurisprudence, it is the source of its authority in finding fact.

If a victim washes, waits three days, has no bruising or injury, was intoxicated at the time, gives inconsistent testimony and her assailant goes free, then the answer is public education, appropriate police response and procedure.

It is most certainly not, convict him anyway because he looks like a perv, he must have done it because the victim says so and all wimmin need the law to punish the beast.
25

Clive Hamblin,

Sussex 05/03/2008 09:26:32
Well said 22.

I've no doubt that you've said what a lot are thinking but dare not say openly.

Once again: well said!
26

seanie,

05/03/2008 09:28:50
#28
I suppose the passage could be interpreted in the way you first suggested.

But only if you willfully misrepresent what she actually said.
27

voltaire's janny,

05/03/2008 09:28:54
#10 - Helene - exactly!
#27 Gothic Rose - exactly the problem.
28

Scottie,

South Africa 05/03/2008 09:33:13
Tweedmouth, any idea of how many lairds and "masters of the house" raped women in subordinate situations in the past? The women wouldn't have stood a hope in hell of getting their masters or the village high-ups into court let alone convicted. Any idea of how many rapes went unreported before the middle of the 20th Century?
29

HECUBA,

London 05/03/2008 09:40:31
Three reasons why rape convictions are one of the worst in the world. One, because it is widely held women consent to being forcibly penetrated by a man unless the woman can provide absolute proof she did not consent. If a woman has physical injuries this is still seen as just 'rough sex.' Given the societal portrayal of women as men's sexualised commodities I am not surprised so many blame women for men making the choice to rape women. Also, male sexuality is still believed to be uncontrollable once aroused and it is a woman's responsibility to control the man's sexual advances NOT THE MAN. Male defendants are not obliged to enter the witness to be cross-examined and women rape survivors still have to endure being cross-examined by defence counsel in respect of their sexual history, medical history and personal history. All of which are designed to discredit the woman's character. Male defendants are not subjected to such intimate cross-examination. Many men believe women always consent and if a woman says 'no' she is simply being coy. No wonder so many male rapists are being acquitted.

SCOTTISH WOMEN AGAINST PORNOGRAPHY
30

conservative,

Fife 05/03/2008 09:47:17
So on top of any anonymous woman being allowed to drag any innocent man she chooses through the full glare of publicity we are now proposing that he should be found guilty on her word alone?

Is this really what happens when a woman is elected to high office?
31

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2008 09:52:31
Re HECUBA (#35) : "Many men believe women always consent...".

What's the basis for this statement, please? I've yet to meet ANY man at all who imagines this to be the case.
32

Miss H,

05/03/2008 09:55:30
3 The views expressed by many on this forum would be welcomed in Saudi Arabia.
33

voltaire's janny,

05/03/2008 10:00:05
Hecuba. #35

Your portrayal of attitudes betrays your own. No-one, not even the most chauvanist of pigs posting here is blaming the victim. They are reacting viscerally as are you to a sense of injustice they perceive in fictional scenarios playing in their own heads.

At stake here is the system of justice. If conviction rates seem to be a problem, then take a long hard look at the definition of the crime, the impact on victim, the length of sentence, and above all the individual circumstances and facts that can be proven in court.

Many more men would be convicted or plead to one of a number of lesser offences, particularly where alcohol has been taken (not given) in excess, but when the outraged sisterhood wants life sentencing, off with the nads etc for the absolutist iconic crime of rape, then juries will do what they have done and not convict.

Are you simply saying abandon rules of evidence for this one category of crome?
34

Miss H,

05/03/2008 10:09:04
41 Our rules of evidence on rape particularly regarding corroboration are not dissimilar to Saudi Arabia. That's the point. As you see from many of these comments there is an assumption that unless there is corroboration then the allegation is probably false - a spiteful woman etc. So yes the rules of evidence do need to be changed.

35

It's me!,

05/03/2008 10:11:10
Is the Scottish conviction rate low because of political pressure on the prosecution service to bring rape cases of doubtful validity to court? I only ask the question. We could have a 100% conviction rate on the basis of the existing legislation if only 'solid' cases in which guilty verdicts are guaranteed are taken before a jury. Then we could be a world leader in guilty verdicts in rape cases. Lies and statistics come to mind.

And what if the victim has ulterior motives and gives consent but later claims rape. Could revenge or criminal compensation for such an claim. It's not unknown. No corroberation? I have no sympathy for offenders but as someone who has served on a jury in a rape case that gave a guilty verdict I would be very unhappy about being asked to give a guilty verdict on the word on the alleged victim alone.

By all means change the law to have oral and homosexual penetration classed as rape but we need to be very careful how easily we make it for a jury to give an incorrect guilty verdict. Remember, it could be your son or brother standing in the dock incorrectly charged with sexual offences.
36

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:13:18
" Widespread concern over the conviction rate is fuelling a drive to reform the law on rape, with the Scottish Government set to announce a raft of changes."

This is worrying, where will it end?!?
37

Toom,

05/03/2008 10:13:27
The basic problem is the large proportion of cases where the two parties know each other, are consensually together, and there are no witnesses. A scenario of 'yes he did' v 'no I didn't' is not something which an adversarial legal system can easily resolve, and it is seldom safe to convict.

#26 - the reason the conviction rate for bank robberies is higher is that there may be cctv, staff and customers as witnesses, a bag labelled 'swag' etc. It is seldom the case that the robber and teller are alone together, know each other, and that the robber claims he suggested the teller hand over some dosh and says that she willingly did so.
38

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:14:50
#26 Miss Dee

Er, most bank robberies tend not to take place in private places.
39

Rambo_the_Jambo,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:19:19
# 11 Solidarity supporter,north berwick


Typical thick headed commy crapology.

The police are not prosecuting Sheridan, the Crown are, at the request of the original trial judge. The police are only doing as they are told.

Get off your 'Tommy Sheridan is Innocent' high horse, he and the rest of your lot are perjurers and deserve everything coming to you.
40

 Ayrshire Scot™,

05/03/2008 10:26:48
42 Miss H

what do you mean? In some Islamic countries the evidence of a woman is treated with less weight than that of a man (in some countries it is given an exact weighting of a half/ quarter - which we all agree is disgusting)

But what do you mean by adjusting our standards of evidence?
41

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:30:26
#35 Hecuba

I agree that the sexualisation of our society is cause for concern, particularly as it affects the behaviour of younger people. But you really have to accept that we all have to take responsibility rather than portray women as being the unwilling victims. No-one forces mothers to allow their daughters to dress older than their years and wear make-up. No-one forces women into having their photographs taken for semi-naked advertisements. No-one forced young women to seek equality through assuming the worst characteristics of men, the so-called laddette culture.

And, by the way, no accused in Scotland, male or female, is obliged to say anything in their defence. It's one of the basic tenets of the system.
42

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 10:40:45
So what is she driving at here? What is her aim?

Presumably it is to increase the number of convictions for rape so that we are in line with other countries as though it is some kind of sick league table.

In order to achieve this, she advocates meddling with the requirement for collaboration. Effectively, if this was to happen, the accused would not get a fair trial. Sure enough it would satisfy her apparently insatiable desire to achieve as many convictions in this area as England and Germany, but what about the poor defendent?

It is one thing meddling with the process of law to enable millions of pounds a year to be made from speed cameras, but quite another to do the same to achieve a higher conviction percentage for serious offences.

Scotland should be PROUD of the fact that the rape conviction rate is low.

Angiolini is clearly unfit to hold office and certainly unfit to be at the Bar. She should resign immeditately.
43

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 11:04:02
What happens if both the man and the woman are similarly drunk and both consent to sex whilst in this condition? Does this somehow cancel out the ability of one party to claim he/she was raped because the other could claim the same?
44

seanie,

05/03/2008 11:04:28
Different crime I know, but given that Scotland consistently has one of the highest murder rates in Europe,often around twice that of England and Wales, I'd take a little convincing that Scots men are inherently more civilised than our EU or UK counterparts.
45

Teofilio Cubillas,

05/03/2008 11:06:57
One of the reasons that Scotland has the lowest conviction rate is that every complaint of rape made to police is recorded and investigated. Sorry, but a heavily drunk 20-year-old presenting herself at a police station in Naples or Barcelona and alleging that she had been raped by a guy she had met in a bar would be shown the door. Comparing Scotland with different cultures, even European ones, is a hugely flawed way of trying to benchmark where we stand in terms of how we deal with this crime. I'm in favour of re-classification. Stating (as many do) that rape is rape is rape is part of the problem. Juries understand rape to be a brutal crime deserving of significant jail time for the offender. When they are presented (as they often are) with evidence of one blind drunk male having sex with a blind drunk female they are loathe to label the male a rapist and see him jailed for the significant period a rape conviction attracts. Save the crime of rape for the really serious stuff and offer a secondary offence that covers these crimes. We already have different grades of assault (assault, assault to severe injury, assault to permanent disfigurement etc) attracting different sentences.
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2008 11:08:55
#54 I would like to see some evidence behind your murder statistics.
47

seanie,

05/03/2008 11:11:42
Well luckily there's plenty of it.

Try Google.
48

brownlie,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 11:12:07
Perhaps more victims would be more willing to come forward if sexual crimes were dealt with in a closed court without journalists present to stop them disclosing intimate details in a lurid manner to sell more newspapers.
49

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/03/2008 11:21:52
#27 Gothic Rose

I agree with you. When the criminal term "sexual assault" was substituted here for "rape" I was disturbed that it gentrified that heinous crime of violence against women (and some men) and was imprecise.

Why do we have to obfuscate the obvious with generalised terms that are devised to calm the masses.
50

Miss H,

05/03/2008 11:32:18
49 What is common is the requirement for corroborative evidence which is higher in Scotland than elsewhere. So the statement of the alleged victim is one piece of evidence but they need further evidence - usually what they are looking for is a witness or forensic evidence. There are usually no witnesses in rape cases and getting forensic evidence usually requires the alleged victim to present themselves after the incident without washing etc. So if you leave it a couple of days to go to the police it is too late. But a lot of people would be in shock after having been raped so going to the police straight away and providing samples is not going to be their first instinct.

What Eilish Angioli is saying is that we should look at changing those rules of evidence - that's where the Moorov rule thing comes into it. So if you could find a lot of women who said they had previously been raped by someone who was on trial for rape they would be allowed to say that in court. At the moment they are not.

It's not about reducing the level of proof required to convict - that is a fundamental misunderstanding. It's about what evidence can be brought to court.

People who say that they are proud that there is such a low conviction rate in Scotland just haven't thought about this. Unless you believe that 94% of women who report rape are liars then there are a lot of rapists walking free because in most cases the law does not recognise that there is even a case to answer.
51

,

05/03/2008 11:33:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
52

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:36:44
Should an horrendous assault and a drunken fumble regretted the morning after really be classed as the same crime, as they are now?
53

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 11:43:04
Not in the least bit suprising...some of the comments here, reflects the common attitude that still prevails...the focus is on alcohol and innocent men being sent down..no cries of outrage re what is happening in our courts....where woman are interrogated re their sexual pasts, and multiple partners seen to be a sign of promiscuity etc...the underwear they wore on the night of the alleged rape being held up for people to look at...

The amount of women who do not report rape is substantial...ask yourself why?....I have worked with women who have been raped and never reported it..because they know the treatment they will receive and that they will be blamed..

No innocent person should have their life ruined because of a liar....but a freed rapist is likely to rape again...as is one who has never been brought to justice in the first place..

30...Interesting how you state that an accused should walk free if there is no evidence to convict him...although his life will be damaged...!!...so are we to assume that all men who get off with rape (due to lack of evidence) are innocent?...I find your remark truly astonishing..this one sided scenario..what about the men who actually are rapists but we are unable to convict them because of lack of evidence...they are then freed to potentially rape again?...your scenario is somewhat confusing 'he says/she says' are you talking about a non rape situation or lack of evidence itself?...

54

Miss H,

05/03/2008 11:44:43
64 Or looking at it another way should a horrendous assault be written off because the victim was drunk?

There is no doubt in my mind that there should be different categories of rape and sexual assault but it's a dangerous assumption that a rape where drink is involved is somehow less horrific than one where it isn't.
55

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:53:52
#65, > Interesting how you state that an accused should walk free if there is no evidence to convict him... <

Isn't that what a trial is all about?
56

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 11:55:55
#67, I don't assume that. I do, however, think that there should be different categories of rape and sexual assault. If there were, I imagine it would be easier to bring rapists and those who commit sexual assault to justice.
57

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:02:43
68 No it doesn't. Where did you get that from? If I rob your house while you are lying in a drunken stupor I cannot say well he didn't try and stop me and expect to get away with it.
58

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:08:55
#73, if someone robbed my house when I was lying in a drunken stupor, it would be the same crime and the burglar, if caught, would get the same punishment. But it's also true that I'd probably get less sympathy from people than if I'd been sober, had resisted and had been beaten up.
59

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:09:49
69 Doreen's point is that the lack of evidence may be because of the very restrictive rules on evidence which is allowed in court rather than a lack of actual evidence.

Unless you believe that 94% of women who report rape are lying then there are a lot of men who are walking free because of lack of admissable evidence, not because they are innocent.
60

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:13:52
75 In the eyes of the law it would be the same crime. The fact that you were drunk would not be relevant. That's the point I was making. You could well say that getting that drunk is pretty stupid and you made yourself vulnerable to attack. Fair point but it being stupid does not actually make someone fair game. In many ways the law exists to protect vulnerable and stupid people. Otherwise we are living in a jungle aren’t we?

61

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:16:41
Dave from Barra:

"...That would be a kick in the pants if it turned out Scots men are slightly more civilised than our EU or UK counterparts, eh?"

Isn't that the case?
62

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 05/03/2008 12:17:22
69...Please read the full quote "The accused should walk free if there is no evidence to convict him, although his life will be damaged".........the poster is assuming that he is innocent because he has not been convicted...this is my point...and that his life will be 'damaged'...

The other scenario of course, is the accused who is guilty and has not been convicted...and a victim whose life will of course be further damaged..
63

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 12:18:54
#78, I said in my earlier post that it would be the same crime and the burglar, if caught, would get the same punishment. We're in full agreement on this.

However, I've also been considering how I'd feel if I were robbed of my wallet. If it happened at knifepoint as I was walking home sober in a 'safe' area, minding my own business, I'd say it was entirely the mugger's fault. If, however, I was staggering home totally drunk and out of my senses, and found afterwards that my wallet had been stolen, I'd put pretty well the whole blame on myself. That's just how I'd feel, and I can't help it.
64

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:38:05
Dave from Barra.

No I am not suggesting that all women and stupid and vulnerable. I am suggesting that people who get into a drunken stupor - irrespective of gender - and become victims of crimes are both stupid and clearly make themselves vulnerable. But that does not excuse the crime or make the victim responsible.

That's a basic point, surely, that everyone can agree on? It does not matter whether that crime is theft, rape or any other kind of assault.

What is sad is that it looks likely that the law will have to be amended specifically to make it clear that that rape is still rape even if the victim is drunk.

As regards the other point you made – what would happen if someone accused of theft said in court well actually the guy was drunk and when I asked him if it was OK to take away all his valuable possessions he said sure thing buddy so I did.

We can only speculate because I am not aware of any such defence being put forward in court for any crime other than rape. But I feel it would be unlikely to success don’t you?
65

moring,

Sydenham Melbourne Australia 05/03/2008 12:43:34
Rape is emotional murder, the victim must live with it for life therefor a rapist should serve life without any comforts. I, as a male feel very strongly about this crime.
66

Miss H,

05/03/2008 12:44:29
84 With respect how you feel isn't the point. You may well feel stupid and blame yourself and with any luck you might stop drinking so much. But the fact is that someone stole from you which is against the law. The law does not say it's OK to steal from someone if they are drunk and doesn't really understand what's going on. If you are going to go down that road then where do you stop? Is it also OK to steal from someone who has a learning disability because they don't really understand what's going on?
67

I still don't believe it !,

05/03/2008 12:49:28
It's down to a jury to decide in rape trials. No matter how much tinkering is done with corroberation, consent or otherwise, if the majority of the 15 jurors are not convinced by the evidence then they won't return a guilty verdit. What's really being proposed is a way to get more cases into court but that in itself will not lead to increased conviction rates. In fact in statistical terms it could actually lead to a reduction!
68

Broddr,

05/03/2008 12:53:44
Unfortunately rape is a seriously difficult crime to prove.

I totally agree that rape and any kind of sexual assaults should be punished with the full weight of the law.

But going down the road where if a woman (or man) says she was raped a conviction is instant.

That is not justice.

If that becomes the case then it should apply for all aspects of the law i.e. if I say that someone stole my car, they should be convicted on my word alone and no evidence or proof should be required.

There are too many ways for someone to be convicted unfairly.

The only solution in my view is for us all to carry around formal documents of consent and have each party sign them in the presence of a third witness such as a magistrate or policeman. These documents should then be submitted to a court and then a letter of consent sent to each party stating their intention for sex has been accepted and they may now do the deed.

This is such a tricky situation and women will always want men to be locked up on nothing more than the woman's word while men will always see the danger that will present to all men from spiteful women.

What if a woman (or man) gives consent to sex then proceeds to get blind drunk and totally forgets that she gave consent and assumes she was raped?

Is that still rape?

I hate the fact that so many rapists walk away free and so many women's lives are ruined by being raped but until we can come up with a system that is fair and just to both parties I can't see this changing.
69

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:10:28
#54

You are talking utter nonsense: I cannot find one website that suggests Scotland's murder rate is higher compared to the rest of the UK. And, to be honest, until you present some evidence I simply could not believe you.
70

brownlie,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 13:11:36
72 Dark Side

Until recently I worked with women who were forced into prostitution. In the same way as victims of domestic violence are too frightened to get in touch with the police these women, and I don't mean all who earn their money this way, are living in terror. It is more widespread than you would like to believe and are you really saying that those responsible should evade punishment for aiding and abetting rape?
71

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:12:38
* cannot
72

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:14:58
#94

Much obliged Dave, however, these date to a rather brutal period in terms of crime: the 80's. If anyone has any up to date statistics I would be interested to know...
73

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 05/03/2008 13:27:17
#97
Not at all Dave, many thanks, it's just the time periods starts before me birth and perhaps more out of naivety I feel these stats don't reflect the country I grew up in.
Won't be much crime on Barra I'd imagine though, lol
74

Allan(handofgod137),

05/03/2008 13:30:36
Think this is a case of "A bad workwoman blaming her tools" .
75

Miss H,

05/03/2008 13:33:14
90 I don't know where you get your ideas from. Where is your evidence that the courts or anyone else consider that a victim of crime has brought that crime on themselves through having had a drink - other than in rape cases?

Take for example this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/4670864.stm

Here is a woman targeting male pensioners in pubs. She indecently assaulted one man aged 81 who later discovered that £20 had been taken from his pocket. The police described this at a despicable offence - it made it onto the BBC website. No-one said well if you will go into pubs and have a drink and talk to strange women you can't expect the full force of the law to be applied. After all, how do we know you didn't give her the twenty quid in return for being indencently assaulted? You know I wonder if that would be your interpretation of that story.

76

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 13:38:58
Yet again, this Lord Advocate muddies the waters between politics and her role as an impartial law officer. She also confirms the fears of many legal experts; namely that she is a legal lightweight. Angliolini should just be honest, and state that she wants a new offence of possession - possession of a penis aggrevated by testicles. Do people understand what getting rid of the need for corroboration would mean? On top of the restrictions she has already helped introduce - namely no right for accused to defend themselves, no right to see the evidence against them, no automatic right to see the experts reports into the evidence against them? This is gender based law. Pure and simple. Angliolini is a dangerous venomist. No one supporting her on this sexist male hating position, should ever be elected to public office again. No organisation supporting this sickening stance, should receive one penny of public money.
77

seanie,

05/03/2008 13:40:33
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/26/ukcrime.scotland

"Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales, according to a study by the World Health Organisation."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/664845.stm

"Scotland's average yearly homicide rate between 2003 and 2005 was 2.26 victims per 100,000 population ( see Annex note 9.11). This was higher than the rate in England and Wales (1.59) and in Northern Ireland (2.01)."

http://www.scottishexecutive.gov.uk/Publications/2007/12/14114316/7

"Scotland's average yearly homicide rate between 2003 and 2005 was 2.26 victims per 100,000 population ( see Annex note 9.11). This was higher than the rate in England and Wales (1.59) and in Northern Ireland (2.01)."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/664845.stm

"The rate of murders in Scotland over a 10-year period was nearly twice the total in England and Wales, according to research."

http://www.stv.tv/content/news/headlines/display.html?id=opencms:/news/Scotland_has_highest_murder_rate_in_UK

"People in Scotland are three times more likely to be unlawfully killed than people in the rest of the UK."



http://www.reform.co.uk/website/pressroom/articles.aspx?o=185

"The murder rate in England continues to rise, up a quarter since 1990. In Scotland the murder rate is even higher: 137 victims in 2004-05, a third higher than in England (currently about 16 per 1m population). "
78

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:08:13
103 No I am not. Alcohol is most certainly not considered a mitigating factor in crime. If it ever was it is no longer - indeed the Justice Secretary has made it very clear that it should never be considered a mitigating factor.

I really don't think that you have given this any serious thought. How many victims of assault do you think were under the influence of drink at the time they were assaulted.

Government estimates that three quarters of violent crime is committed under the influence of alcohol. I don't know if there are any figures about how many of the victims of violent crime were under the influence of alcohol but I'd guess it was at around the same level.

So what do you think happens? Do they go to court and the accused says well we were both hammered, we got into a fight and I chibbed him and the court says ach well that's alright son, he shouldn't have been cheeky.

If we apply your logic that would be what happens and 94% of people accused of assault would walk free the same way that 94% of people accused of rape do.
79

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:15:24
104 Dave Incidentally the judgement you posted said that excessive alcohol comsumption was no excuse for the crime committed. In any case a more apt analogy would be if the girl who died had been drunk. Would it then have been her fault if she died in a fire which was deliberately set?
80

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/03/2008 14:17:39
My final point; the Lord Advocate also clearly contradicts herself in the article, and on the whole major permise of the article. The article opens by her stating that radical changes need to be made to the law on corroboration for rape, in order to boost Scotland's low conviction rate. But half way down the article and on a single sentence paragraph, she states that when adjustments are made to reconcile different definitions of the crime of rape, Scotland's figures are in fact not higher than most other countries. So which is it Lord Advocate?
81

Miss H,

05/03/2008 14:17:54
I am not drunk and you are completely ignorant of the law. No Sherriff ever has or would say such a stupid thing and incidentally the link you posted did not prove the point you were attempting to make. I suggest you calm down and try to look at these points rationally and logically instead of getting all het up about it. Is it your time of the month or something?