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Scotland's banknotes 'under threat in Treasury shake-up'



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Published Date:
04 February 2008
THE future of Scottish bank-notes could be in doubt following proposed new measures to protect customers from failing financial institutions, it was claimed last night.
Clydesdale Bank, one of three banks allowed to print Scottish banknotes, has admitted it would have to consider whether to continue issuing notes north of the Border if the Treasury proposals get the go-ahead.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, ha
s also voiced fears over the move, claiming the changes posed the "biggest threat" to Scottish notes in more than 160 years. Under current laws, Clydesdale Bank, Royal Bank of Scotland and Bank of Scotland have to lodge funds with the Bank of England to cover the value of their notes, but only for three days of the week – the other four days they can be invested elsewhere, gaining millions of pounds in interest.

However, the new proposals, announced last week by Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, would require funds to be lodged with the Bank of England for the entire week.

A spokesman for Clydesdale Bank said it was "very concerned" about the potential impact of the proposals and was seeking a meeting with the Treasury. He added: "If this were to go ahead, it would force us to consider whether issuing bank-notes would be viable in the future, a position we do not want to be forced into."

A consultation on the measures, aimed at improving financial stability and protecting depositors, has been launched.

Mr Salmond said the changes could cost the Scottish and Northern Irish banks which issue their own notes a total of £100 million a year.

The First Minister said: "This is a dagger at the heart of Scottish bank-notes, which are a proud tradition in Scotland and hugely popular with the Scottish public. It would remove any advantage from issuing notes; therefore I am certain one or more of the banks would stop the notes issue."

He added: "Under the cover of a consultation on financial stability, the Treasury are launching a smash-and-grab at the Scottish note issue.

"What makes this a particularly underhand and shabby attempt is to cloak it in a document about financial stability. The Scottish banks are among the most stable financial institutions in the world."

Mr Salmond pledged that the Scottish Government would respond to the consultation in "the strongest terms", adding: "I think Alistair Darling should be hanging his head in shame that a Scottish Chancellor could allow his Treasury to attempt to undermine the Scottish note issue."

However, a Treasury spokesman said: "The changes outlined in the consultation document will ensure customers of Scottish and Irish banks are protected in the same ways as the rest of the UK's depositors, and will leave all British banks and their customers on a level playing field.

"The consultation proposes changes which will reduce the likelihood of individual banks facing difficulties, reduce the impact if, nevertheless, a bank gets into difficulties, and also provide effective compensation arrangements in which consumers have confidence – changes which as are important to Scottish banking customers as they are to those across the UK."

A spokesman for the Bank of Scotland said: "We understand the authorities are very comfortable with our approach to issuing banknotes."

A spokesman for the Royal Bank of Scotland refused to comment, but confirmed it would take part in the consultation.

TRADITION STRETCHES BACK 300 YEARS

THE Bank of Scotland became the first to issue notes north of the Border when it was founded in 1695.

Scots coinage had been in short supply and of uncertain value compared with the English, Dutch, Flemish or French coins, which were preferred by the majority of Scots.

Early notes were printed in black only. It was not until September 1777 that the Royal Bank of Scotland pioneered the use of colour in banknotes, with a blue rectangle displaying the words "One Guinea" and the King's head shown in red.

The Banknote (Scotland) Act was passed in 1845 and this act regulates today's note issue. Around £2.8 billion of Scottish banknotes are in circulation, split roughly equally between the three issuing banks.



The full article contains 695 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 February 2008 9:14 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
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04/02/2008 00:07:30
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04/02/2008 00:12:16
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04/02/2008 00:14:40
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Friar Tuck,

04/02/2008 00:17:47
Here's a suggestion - rename the Bank of England the "Bank of Britain" (which it really is). Maybe then the Scots wouldn't mind using British money and the Scottish banks would make more profit since they wouldn't have to print their own money. Or maybe Sotland should just switch to the Euro. While they're at it, they should rename the Queen "Queen Elizabeth I" since she is the first Queen Elizabeth of Britain!
5

AJ Fife,

04/02/2008 00:18:00
Fantastic news, this should wake up some dosey Scots!
6

Royster,

04/02/2008 00:22:18
#4 Bank of Britain sounds good to me. Personally, given current market conditions, I'd rather hold notes issued by the central bank than a commercial one. Wouldn't you?
7

Macaroon Bar,

04/02/2008 00:32:04
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.1399044.0.soaring_sales_for_lees_if_you_please.php
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04/02/2008 00:34:49
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04/02/2008 00:44:38
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04/02/2008 00:46:13
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04/02/2008 00:56:36
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FrancesP,

04/02/2008 01:13:00
#2. If we joined the euro, we'd lose Scottish banknotes, but in place of that we'd gain a Scottish symbol on our euro coins. As it stands, if the Scottish banks are effectively forced to stop issuing banknotes, I hardly think the Treasury are going to allow us to mint our own coins instead. So I suspect that's what Salmond's "on about".
13

AJM,

04/02/2008 01:15:08
AS has jumped in here with both feet.
14

Senga Jean,

04/02/2008 01:15:28
Royster. I guess you are not Scottish because you instinctively wish the worst for Scotland. If you are Scottish ...be ashamed. Nonsense such as yours at such a fragile time is less than responsible. Yes I would be much happier if Scotland were in the Eurozone.
15

Richardinho,

04/02/2008 01:18:36
Oh dear, this looks like becoming another 'nationalist shibboleth' where the Labour party decides to attack something with all their might not caring one jot for the detrimental effect on the Scottish people as a result.
16

Royster,

04/02/2008 01:58:04
#14. Fail to see your argument. For one, these are not Scottish bank notes. They are issued by commercial banks based in Scotland. Bank of England notes, on the other hand, are backed in full by the UK state. I agree it is a shame about the name, which is an historical throwback, but they are safer than notes issued by Clydesdale Bank et al. I also guess you are not Scottish because you instinctively want what is worse for the people of Scotland like loss of sovereignty to Brussels.
17

Royster,

04/02/2008 01:59:53
#12. So it's bye-bye to sovereignty for a thistle on a few Euro coins is it? You couldn't make this up.
18

Navvy,

04/02/2008 02:01:33
ooo err macalba is an unhappy chappie

There are already Scottish symbols on pound coins

The bank of England was founded by a Scot

all paper money is inherently worthless, a mere promise to pay and many promissory notes have been dishonoured

Darling has taken the high road to London where he has lost his native phlegmatic approach and learned to close doors after horses have bolted. Northern Rock was built on shifting sand. Which government presided over the demutualization process? Which government continued that process? Would a mutual society have gone into the subprime smoke?

Is ther a comment forthcoming from Ulster since presumably their note issuing banks are to be similarly affected?
19

Navvy,

04/02/2008 02:01:51
ooo err macalba is an unhappy chappie

There are already Scottish symbols on pound coins

The bank of England was founded by a Scot

all paper money is inherently worthless, a mere promise to pay and many promissory notes have been dishonoured

Darling has taken the high road to London where he has lost his native phlegmatic approach and learned to close doors after horses have bolted. Northern Rock was built on shifting sand. Which government presided over the demutualization process? Which government continued that process? Would a mutual society have gone into the subprime smoke?

Is there a comment forthcoming from Ulster since presumably their note issuing banks are to be similarly affected?
20

Royster,

04/02/2008 02:01:57
#9. LOL.
21

Edward,

04/02/2008 02:02:19
Royster actually resides in Yorkshire, so Scottish Bank notes dont really have any effect on him/her
22

FrancesP,

04/02/2008 02:06:22
#17. Ahem! You'll have to explain this to me, because I'm a bit dim - precisely what sovereignty does Scotland actually have to lose? Would that be the sovereignty that "rests with me as an English MP and that's the way it will stay" as Tony Blair so memorably put it?

You're right, I couldn't make this up. But apparently you could.
23

Edward,

04/02/2008 02:06:43
#12 FrancesP
Actually you have a good point there
If Scotland was to be in the eurozone and issue its own Euro coins, they would be in use right accross europe! As Scots spend them on holiday in France, Spain Germany etc, they would circulate over all member countries. So the symbols of Scotland would be in everyones pockets
24

FrancesP,

04/02/2008 02:06:44
#17. Ahem! You'll have to explain this to me, because I'm a bit dim - precisely what sovereignty does Scotland actually have to lose? Would that be the sovereignty that "rests with me as an English MP and that's the way it will stay" as Tony Blair so memorably put it?

You're right, I couldn't make this up. But apparently you could.
25

Royster,

04/02/2008 02:07:17
Dear Nats, I'm offering to exchange Bank of Royster 10 pound notes with a lovely thistle and William Wallace drawn on them in felt-tip pen for those nasty UK state Bank of England ones. The exchange rate is 1-for-1.
26

Royster,

04/02/2008 02:07:21
Dear Nats, I'm offering to exchange Bank of Royster 10 pound notes with a lovely thistle and William Wallace drawn on them in felt-tip pen for those nasty UK state Bank of England ones. The exchange rate is 1-for-1.
27

Royster,

04/02/2008 02:07:28
Dear Nats, I'm offering to exchange Bank of Royster 10 pound notes with a lovely thistle and William Wallace drawn on them in felt-tip pen for those nasty UK state Bank of England ones. The exchange rate is 1-for-1.
28

Royster,

04/02/2008 02:07:29
Dear Nats, I'm offering to exchange Bank of Royster 10 pound notes with a lovely thistle and William Wallace drawn on them in felt-tip pen for those nasty UK state Bank of England ones. The exchange rate is 1-for-1.
29

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04/02/2008 02:07:54
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Guga II,

Rockall 04/02/2008 03:27:06
#25 to #29 Groundhog Day was the other day. Maybe the Yorkshire air has affected your solitary brain cell.
31

Royster,

04/02/2008 04:09:07
It just shows how risky these commercial bank notes actually are compared to central bank notes. I wasn't aware the funds were only lodged with the Bank of England for only 3 days of the week. I now understand why some retailers won't take them - though I would have no probem.
32

Royster,

04/02/2008 05:32:52
Under the current system, residents of Scotland are taking on extra risk by holding these notes and allowing banks to make a profit by investing the extra cash not held at the Bank of England. But if that is what Alex Salmond wants.
33

An Beal Bacht,

04/02/2008 06:27:01
I'd like to see a Central Bank of Scotland with the ability to mint its own coins, print its own notes, and set interest rates for Scotland. If it's no Scottish it's crap!
34

Iain fae Elgin,

04/02/2008 07:33:20
"...that a Scottish Chancellor...."

Erm, no. He's a Scotsman who is a British chancellor.
Like it or not.
35

Liam,

04/02/2008 07:35:56
Time we were in the Euro anyway. We really need to learn to get less emotionally attached to bits of paper. No doubt if Salmond had his way we'd all be looking at his ghastly mugshot on our fivers!
36

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 04/02/2008 07:36:56
The only legal tender that I know of that serves the whole of the UK is stamps. So that's the answer, print more stamps.
37

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2008 07:42:26
This seems fairly straightforward and shouldn't really be a question of the constitutional make up of the UK, although I'm sure the SNP will attempt to make it one.
Surely the point here is that it's better for currency to be controlled by the democratically accountable state than private companies? That must be a preferable way to go, especially after seeing how the spivs and chancers in the financial sector have so spectacularly made a mess of things.
38

Jimmy the Pie,

04/02/2008 07:44:14
Ask Wendy what banknotes she would prefer her 'donations' in? She might surprise everyone and insist on gold - the only 'safe' currency. (Well it was until Broon had his cut-price gold sale - prudent!)
39

Hugo of Garven,

04/02/2008 07:51:41
Did Northern Rock issue banknotes?
40

Mirrorman,

In Sanity 04/02/2008 08:10:09
#9

You forgot the punchline...I take it that was a joke?
41

paulr,

edinburgh 04/02/2008 08:14:06
Friar tuck, if you want to bend over for some Greek/german/english so called royal, then you go for it.
42

Dark,

Edinburgh 04/02/2008 08:16:41
What is the advantage of having Scottish notes and why does Salmond say it would cost Scottish & N. Irish banks £100m a year?

Surely not having to issue their own notes would save the banks money?
43

An Beal Bacht,

04/02/2008 08:21:07
38 Grahamski;

I agree - Stop these buccaneers from issuing bank notes. This should be the sole province of The Central Bank of Scotland! It's our country, our economy, our future. Not for Sale!
44

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 04/02/2008 08:24:55
Telt ye all only the other day, didn't I.?
Scotland only gets,..'Tread upon'!
We ARE the race that always says............
'YES SIR,..NO SIR,...THREE BAGS FULL,..SIR'
45

An Beal Bacht,

04/02/2008 08:56:17
45 Charles Linskaill:

You are so yesterday!
46

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2008 09:02:23
#44
Agreed, as soon as the people of Scotland want independence that's exactly what should happen. In the meantime I take it you accept the idea of Bank of The UK?
47

moiaussi,

04/02/2008 09:06:57
The Bank of England should have changed its name 300 years ago. If they abolish Scottish notes then we'll, end up with Bank of England - that will be a popular move won't it? Shows how clueless the likes of Brown are.
48

GrahamL,

04/02/2008 09:08:00
#43 Shockingly, I think thats a teensy bit of spin from Alec. It'll cost £100m if the banks continue to produce the notes - as they won't have the 4 days a week of investing the deposit money that they do now. But I would have thought that, yes, they'll make money from not having to print them or deposit any money with the BoE.
I'd be surprised if the boards of any of the Scottish banks are losing much sleep over this proposal!
49

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/02/2008 09:21:55
Presumably this will affect English Banks as well ? So , the greeting whinging headline imploring that the big bad english are pulling one over on the scots isnt really required ?

Just a thought.

Anyway , join the euro please and put an end to this archaic nonsense.
50

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/02/2008 09:26:54
Ok , it doesnt affect english banks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknotes_of_the_pound_sterling#Issuing_banks_and_authorities

whoopee doo.
51

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/02/2008 09:32:21
The Scottish Banks could just deposit money for the whole week with the Bank of England as long as it was willing to pay interest on that money. Seeing as how The Bank of Englands competence has been called into question recently over the Northern Rock affair (50 Billion and counting)I would suggest LIBOR +2% to reflect the risk the Scottish Banks would be taking.
52

Media 1,

cape town 04/02/2008 09:35:24
Everyday that goes by sees Salmond embarrass Scotland a little more! The Liberator Salmomd is losing the plot, he really needs to put the anti English sentiment to bed now, its pathetic.
Doing away with the Scottish note is not a bad idea at all, and it will offer more protection!
53

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 09:44:58
49. EXACTLY.

This is typical SNP. Take half the facts and spin a huge conflict with the 'big bad union' about it.

It costs the banks millions (~£100m a week going by Salmond's own 'figures') to print notes which they could instead invest as they wish.

Salmond is basically fighting to stop Scottish banks investing as they see fit.
54

,

04/02/2008 09:52:32
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55

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/02/2008 09:54:39
#54 Highland Mighty
The 100 million pounds a week is the lost interest on the 2.8 Billion pounds that would have to be deposited with the Bank of England. It is in fact another example of the English taking advantage of the Scots and giving nothing in return. You yourself could probably get the Bank of England to let you issue Notes as long as you where willing to maintain an equivalent amount on deposit with them on which you would receive no interest.
56

Gee Dee,

Midlothian 04/02/2008 09:56:21
SCOTSMAN - Stop the music Please, when I read My paper I don't switch the radio or Tv on, so why do I want a fanfare everytime I open a new page
57

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 09:57:26
56. So if they didn't have to print their own notes, could the banks invest this £2.8bn (of OUR money)elsewhere? Perhaps in the global financial markets where they could actually make some, you know, profit?
58

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 10:02:29
56. At what point will the SNP Screamers admit that Salmond is trying to pick yet another petty fight that would actually cost Scottish banks millions a week if he got his way?
59

GrahamL,

04/02/2008 10:03:41
#58 Precisely. I would imagine very one of the banks involved has considered stopping producing their own banknotes at one point or another, but decided the bad publicity isn't worth the savings (it's £100m a year by the way - across all Scottish and Northern Irish banks, so pretty insignificant numbers in terms of banking profits). This move would give them the excuse they need to stop producing them altogether, and they'll be able to blame it all on the English. Everyone's a winner...
60

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 10:19:03
61. Well done for missing the point completely.

But excellent use of the SNP database (aka Wikipedia) for your post.

First class. Truly.
61

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 10:20:09
Grahamski (38): "Surely the point here is that it's better for currency to be controlled by the democratically accountable state than private companies?"

Why? The history of state-controlled currencies was woeful for most of the post-WWII period. It's not clear to me that private companies are intrinsically less reliable providers of currency.
62

Webbie,

mullingar 04/02/2008 10:26:12
If Scottish/NI banks print notes based on the money invested with the BoE then these notes have value, the BoE print notes based on a numeric limit to funds ratio and so these notes do not have the value printed on them.
3 days a week the Scottish/NI notes have full value or no days of the week BoE notes are full value, which are more secure?
63

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 04/02/2008 10:27:27
Wendy doesn't care where the notes come from so long as she doesn't have to reveal who has given them to her. She never intentionally ever says "no thank you"!!!!
64

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 10:29:19
KampungHighlander (56): "The 100 million pounds a week is the lost interest on the 2.8 Billion pounds that would have to be deposited with the Bank of England. It is in fact another example of the English taking advantage of the Scots and giving nothing in return."

The Bank of England also maintains currency reserves for Sterling on which it cannot gain interest: this is one of the prices paid for a stable currency. The Scottish issuing banks are therefore being treated equitably: the Bank of England receives deposits and, in return, grants the right to print an agreed quantity of notes.
65

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/02/2008 10:35:16
Please just join the euro and hand your "soveriegnity" to the ECB.
66

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 10:40:06
Webbie (65): "3 days a week the Scottish/NI notes have full value or no days of the week BoE notes are full value, which are more secure?"

There's an easy way to find out: the Scottish issuing banks can continue to issue their promissory notes under their own names and end the practice of keeping reserves of Sterling at the Bank of England. Their notes would cease to be pounds Sterling and would then be separate currencies.
67

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/02/2008 10:43:36
#58 and #59
You are so naive about how Banks work. Banks don't make money from the funds on deposit(OUR money). They make their money from all the transaction charges and management fees. Banks don't pay enough money to attract people with the skills to make money from "Financial Markets". Every time they try to make money from Financial Markets it ends up an unmitigated disaster. A classic example is the US subprime fiasco. The banks where the dummies who ended up holding all this worthless paper. That was because, for the salaries that they pay, they end up with sub standard talent. If you where a smart person who knew how to make money in financial markets would you want a job at a Bank, where you will never make more than a million pounds a year. Or would you rather work for a Hedge Fund where you could make Hundreds of millions.
That is why banks don't make money from financial markets, they don't have a remuneration structure that would attract the proper talent. The Headline for this story should read "Darling demands Scottish Banks give BofE interest free loan"
68

Black & White Triumph,

Greenhill road.....soon 04/02/2008 10:45:50
lets get away completely, independence now and forever, lets make our own way at least when we argue amongst oursleves it will be for the betterment of Scotland.
We must join the Euro, we must be able to trade fairly in the modern world without being disadvantaged using the pound.
Scotland needs to get our Parliament with teeth toi bite for ourselves.
69

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 10:51:32
63. "Why? The history of state-controlled currencies was woeful for most of the post-WWII period."

Compared to what? Aren't ALL currencies 'state-controlled'?
70

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 10:56:22
73. Yep, he's another ex-pat nat.

The vast majority of the nats on this board (and the only time the nats are in any majority) live overseas - specifically in the USA, Canada, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Austria, France and Switzerland.

Very few actually live in Scotland.
71

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 04/02/2008 10:59:23
High time we joined the euro and ended this type of nonsense.
72

Publius,

London 04/02/2008 11:01:02
A few points
(1) Banknotes (Euro, sterling or Scottish) will go out of fashion sooner rather than later. Plastic will take over.
(2) What is reported is a consultation exercise involving several issues about consumer protection besides Scottish banknotes. Consumer protection against banks is important, especially given the fall in the value of all banks during the last few months.
(3) Running scare stories about Scottish banknotes is hardy annual, always good for a few pungent comments from Alex and the SNP.
(4) Does anyone remember that Scottish banks carried on printing pound notes long after the Bank of England had abandoned them? For years it was said that Scots preferred dirty, tatty pound notes to the 'English' pound coins. That only showed the contempt in which big banks held their customers.
73

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 11:05:20
Highland Mighty (74): "Compared to what? Aren't ALL currencies 'state-controlled'?"

Historically no, although I agree that states have usually imposed monetary control. To give one interesting example, the Roman Republic allowed monetary control to remain localized in many areas of its rule. However, I'm primarily thinking of the much more stable period of gold/silver based money before WWII. After WWII, western states generally abused their control of the money supply, producing massive inflation, and it is this abuse (from, say, the 1950s until the 1980s) that I have in mind.
74

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 11:07:27
77. Good point re the end of currency!

Credit and chip/pin purchases are now all-but universal which makes this 'debate' all-but irrelevant.
75

kimba,

04/02/2008 11:07:37
2. spot on! it's the fact that he and everyone else in Scotland would have to use English notes,and brought in by a scotsman as well
76

kimba,

04/02/2008 11:20:38
80. What you fail to address is the many elderly people in the country who still prefer to use cash,so this debate is not at all irrelevant
77

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/02/2008 11:21:34
#4 Friar Tuck nearly had it right. Rename the B of E to the Bank of Britain, which it really is.
Scottish banks have to obey the same rules as all other British banks, namely to provide adequate guarantees of security. This will happen under any good system

Under 'independence' no Scottish notes at all since we'll have the Euro anyway.

#4 only failed when describing current Queen as the first Elizabeth of all Britain. Learn proper history, not guff.

78

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 11:27:45
Rulesbutnotrulers (83): "Under 'independence' no Scottish notes at all since we'll have the Euro anyway."

Even if Scotland became a new EU member state immediately at independence, there would be a qualification period before joining the Euro. In the interim, it would be natural to recreate the Pound Scots, together with a new Scottish central bank.
79

RogerC,

Lyme Regis 04/02/2008 11:29:54
Re. MacAlba
Oh Dear. Another tartan twit with an inferiority complex and a pan load of chips on his shoulder. Why don't you sad people come to terms with the fact that Britain is Great because it comprises all the parts of our small island. If you want to be involved in tribal warfare, perhaps you should go and live in Kenya.

80

Joanna,

Cambs, England 04/02/2008 11:36:38
Roger C @ 85

MacAlba will be an uber-patrotic, nationlistic, tartan swathed expat who doesn't deign to live in Scotland. You can always tell by the time they post and how much vitriol and lunacy they display.

Re: the banknotes - whoever's face is on them and whatever national symbols they display - one thing is for sure you need more and more of them to live in New Labour Land.
81

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 11:42:50
86. "Re: the banknotes - whoever's face is on them and whatever national symbols they display - one thing is for sure you need more and more of them to live in New Labour Land."

Amen to that!

Any more ready to vote for the only true tax-cutting party (as opposed to the tax-centralising SNP)?
82

Publius,

London 04/02/2008 11:48:34
#84 Fairfax
You write "Even if Scotland became a new EU member state immediately at independence, there would be a qualification period before joining the Euro. In the interim, it would be natural to recreate the Pound Scots, together with a new Scottish central bank."

No it wouldn't: it would cost a fortune to create a new central bank with the Scots pound as a new currency, let the Scots pound float against all other currencies for a year or two, then fix its value against the Euro, wait for two more years (as the European Central Bank would require) and then join the Euro.
Not even SNP envisages doing this. SNP policy is to stick with the pound sterling (thus leaving Scottish monetary policy under English control) and then join the Euro directly. The European Central Bank probably won't allow this, because it requires a new entrant to fix the value of its currency against the Euro for a period - usually two year - first.
The SNP's policy on currency (and thus monetary policy)is very weak indeed. It is no wonder that the SNP shouts loudly about symbols such as Scottish banknotes.

83

AJ Fife,

04/02/2008 11:49:57
Joanna#86,

Don't you think Scots everywhere would be quite within their rights, to start burning Union Jacks and vandalising the Royal apartments at Holyrood Palace if Darling's idea comes to fruition?
84

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 11:50:35
Ah, which SNP ranter went running to 'teacher' about my offer to sell 100 'Salmonds' for each pound?

Was it because I described each of my shiny new 'Salmonds' as a "handpainted Scottish Salmon with the face of our Great Leader (praise him, O' praise him) imprinted on the fish's derriere"?

If so, I apologise to the poor little mite who was so utterly offended.
85

Turkey Jerky,

04/02/2008 11:52:18
KampungHighlander #70

You are the naive one. Banks create money based on the amount they have deposited. Its called the fractional reserve requirement. usually around 9:1.

This means that for every 1 pound they have deposited they are legally able to loan 9 pounds against the depositors money that they hold.

This money is created from the debt (thin air) that is incurred by the loan taker.

So if the bank of england holds £2.8 billion of scottish deposits they can then loan an additional £25.2 billion to debtors. The interest on this is huge money. Also, if this loan money is then deposited in a BoE account they can then lend against a fraction of that deposit as well.

Learn some economic theory. This is an excuse to hand over vast financial power to ENgland.
86

Highland Mighty,

04/02/2008 11:53:13
89. Plot, lost?

Just laughing at the image of a dozen spotty teenagers standing in the street, shouting at a burning Union Jack....while passers-by wearily shake their heads before carrying on with their shopping.
87

Turkey Jerky,

04/02/2008 11:57:56
Highland Mighty (74): "Compared to what? Aren't ALL currencies 'state-controlled'?"

I will re-iterate the point made previously that NO, the state does not control the currency, banks DO, the state simply supports the bank by saying that their currency is valid legally as payment for any debt. It is a FIAT that they issue.

Has anyone ever wondered why the government pays private institutions interest on loans based on the monies they legally ratify. If the government didn't pay interest on it then they could be said to control the currency.
88

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 04/02/2008 12:00:14
The Bank of Scotland may well be the oldest bank in Scotland, but since it was taken over by the Halifax Building Society, is a mere shadow of its former self.

I should know---I worked for Bank of Scotland for 25 years, and from what I hear from ex-colleagues, it wouldn't matter one jot whether or not it still issues its own notes. All the power and the money is held down south.

Clydesdale Bank? Scottish in name only.

You are clutching at straws if you think issuing Scottish banknotes is going to make any difference.

89

kimba,

04/02/2008 12:02:58
#89 dont you think we would be in our rights to ram an egg plant up your kilt. becasue your idea is just as stupid as that one, it has all the mentality of a 13 year old ned who drinks white lightning on a street corner. money is money, who cares what it looks like, your all saying you are getting the euro anyway, so why the long face.
90

Joanna,

Cambs, England 04/02/2008 12:16:29
AJ @ 89

Too much Buckie again?

Tut, tut ... you promised me that you'd lay off it after the last time!

Now stop these pyrotechnic fantasies you keep having - you know you can't be trusted around a naked flame .... you'll burn your fingers again and anything else that may be in the vicinity.

If, however, you're planning on burning English banknotes - just send them to me and I'll be happy to take care of them for you :))
91

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 12:22:05
Publius (88): "No it wouldn't: it would cost a fortune to create a new central bank with the Scots pound as a new currency"

It would be costly, but they will have other costs usually associated with a central bank, such as selling bonds. I suppose these tasks might be outsourced to commercial banks, instead, but it's not clear that this would be cheaper. Still, if Brown and Darling can outsource the Treasury to Goldman Sachs to deal with Northern Rock, then perhaps there would be little difference . . .
92

AJ Fife,

04/02/2008 12:39:13
Joanna,

Aha, do you think am that mental Hen? Burning Union Jacks is wan thing, but destroying Bank of England notes would be an insult to the memory of the Scot who founded your bank!;)

Kimba,

A've telt ye before...am only 13!
93

kimba,

04/02/2008 12:42:39
#98 i can well believe you are 13 you have the mental capacity of a 13 year old. no i'm sorry that is an insult to 13 year olds.
94

kimba,

04/02/2008 12:44:20
#99 what the hell has that got to do with anything.
You need you independence before that, and that isnt as cut and dry as you think it is.
95

kimba,

04/02/2008 12:44:57
who cares about Tony Blair??
96

Fairfax,

04/02/2008 12:45:38
AJ Fife (98): "destroying Bank of England notes would be an insult to the memory of the Scot who founded your bank!"

Paterson also conceived the Darien scheme, so his financial judgment was not always good . . .
97

Publius,

London 04/02/2008 12:45:48
#97 Fairfax

I think the main costs would not be in selling bonds, but in establishing (a) an appropriate value for a Scottish pound and (b) a credible monetary policy.
(a) VALUE OF THE POUND. It is not at all clear whether a Scottish pound would rise against the pound sterling and Euro - or fall - or whether we would want it to rise or fall. The current price of oil suggests that a Scottish pound would rise sharply, but Scottish employment depends heavily on manufactured exports which a high pound would make uncompetitive. Also a lot of service companies (banking, distribution, on-line ordering etc) are UK-wide. They could easily shut down their Scottish operations and move the work to the south.
(b) MONETARY POLICY. Monetary policy might be easier. If the natural tendency of the Scottish pound was upwards, the Scottish central bank could perhaps reduce interest rates without risking inflation. But there would be unforseeable side effects.

One other point. Other currencies will move about too. For about 90 years there has been a recurring cycle. First the dollar moves, then the pound sterling, then the European currencies(now Euro). In the last year or two the dollar has fallen followed by the pound. An open question is whether the cycle has now been broken. That is the 64,000 dollar question. If I know the answer I would know whether I wanted the prize in dollars, Euros or whatever!
98

AJ Fife,

04/02/2008 12:48:35
kimba#100,

That really really hurt! You say the most nasty and hateful things. You've put me right aff ma English lit exam.

Nevermind, it's leafpiece time and there's a rare game o' commandies startin', and am a Jerry tae day!
99

AJ Fife,

04/02/2008 12:52:33
Fairfax#105,

Paterson was ahead of his time, attempting to create a trading colony between Europe, the New World and the East Indies, in the isthmus of Panama!

Great idea until it was sabotaged by the English!
100

kimba,

04/02/2008 12:59:48
108, we aren't talking about iraq!
101

Royster,

04/02/2008 12:59:52
#61. Looks like RBS is about to go cap in hand to the shareholders and do a rights issue. Sorry to burst your bubble.
102

Royster,

04/02/2008 13:04:32
#61. Reuters is saying RBS may need to raise US$20 billion to bolster its damaged balance sheet... Oops. Sounds like rogue trader Jerome Kerviel has just found a part time job. Anyone for true blue RBS Scottish bank notes?
103

Royster,

04/02/2008 13:13:32
#70. I think all banks world-wide have to place interest free deposits with the relevant central bank. It's called reserve requirements. It basically proves that you are a bank as opposed to, say, a corner shop.
104

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 04/02/2008 13:14:59
The Scottish banks are a part of Scottish identity and as long as we use Sterling they need to be protected.

Westminster Labour have already called for a British football team at the Olympics which could well lead to the elimination of our country's participation at international level.

Clearly everything Scottish is an inconvenience, London knows best and we should all be happy to be run from there. Salmond is right to raise this point and Alastair Darling is either deliberately undermining Scotland's banks or is completely incompetent.
105

Royster,

04/02/2008 13:15:58
#74. During the Elizabethan era you had pieces of eight, florins, marks etc all trading freely. All were freely accepted and traded accordingly.
106

Neale,

Edinburgh 04/02/2008 13:16:21
If Scots/Brits went to any other country and they issued 8 kinds of notes YES 8 KINDS! In our case BofE, RBS, Clydesdale Bank, and 4 issuers in Northern Ireland we would cry foul and call them small minded Monopoly money users, but we do that to ourselves and to poor tourists. Its a silly system that should be centralised with one British note, until the Eurpo comes in that is. Poor shopkeepers; how do they ever spot fakes with so many different notes in circulation.
107

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/02/2008 13:22:40
Let me see, Tomorrow Headline erm something along the lines of

"something happens in england which undermines scottishness"

repear ad infinitum.

The sheer frustration is overwhelming.