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Scotland to be 'named and shamed' by UN over child welfare failures



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Published Date: 12 May 2008
SCOTLAND will be "named and shamed" in a damning report to a United Nations watchdog for its failure to improve child welfare and tackle teenage pregnancies – five years after it was warned to make urgent improvements.
In a leaked report seen by The Scotsman, campaigners highlight failures on a range of issues including poverty, physical punishment, youth justice and the sexual exploitation of children.

Government ministers face a detailed "report card" from th
e Scottish Alliance for Children's Rights (SACR), which will give evidence to a powerful UN committee in Geneva later this year.

Charities fear Scotland will be disgraced on the world stage for its lack of progress and ministers will be brought to account for breaching the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The report is particularly critical of the slow progress made on the problem of teenage pregnancies in Scotland.

Figures show the number of pregnancies per 1,000 girls aged 15 to 19 rose from 55.6 in 2004 to 56.7 last year.

According to the report by SACR, the Scottish Government is unlikely to meet its target for cutting accidental conceptions in school-aged girls in poorer communities. "The teaching of sexual health education varies greatly in schools and is sometimes dependent on the attitude of teachers or parents," says the report.

The Scottish Government confirmed yesterday that, if current trends continue, it will not meet the target of reducing the teenage pregnancy rate for under-16s in the most deprived areas by 33 per cent, from 10.2 in 2000-2 to 6.8 in 2007-9.

Nearly one in four children in Scotland is officially recognised as poor, and SACR is demanding a plan to wipe out child poverty as an "urgent priority", including a commitment to the UK target of halving child poverty by 2010.

The report states it is almost impossible to ascertain if ministers have taken "all necessary measures" to eliminate child poverty as the government does not collate spending data in a way that can be properly monitored.

Douglas Hamilton, the chairman of SACR, said:

"There are too many children living in poverty … too many looked-after children (those in care] do not receive adequate care and support."

The UN is also particularly concerned that the age of criminal responsibility – eight – is too low. This is two years younger than the rest of the UK. In Canada it is 12, 13 in France and 14 in Germany.

Fiona Hyslop, the education and lifelong learning secretary, said the government would consider the report.

KEY AREAS WHERE WE'RE GOING WRONG

TRAFFICKING


The report raises concerns about the lack of skills among front-line professionals regarding the identification of child victims of trafficking, a lack of safe accommodation and a lack of specialist services to meet their needs.

The recording and monitoring of trafficked children is also inadequate and it is claimed some of these children go missing from local authority care.

Campaigners are calling on the Scottish Government to develop appropriate mechanisms and ensure high-quality training of professionals for the identification and support of child victims of trafficking.

They say that the UK government must fully resource its anti-trafficking action plan and ensure that all child victims of trafficking are protected in line with the standards of international human rights.

CRIME

Since 2002, the UK and Scottish governments have made it clear they have no plans to raise the age of criminal responsibility – in Scotland it is currently eight years old.

SACR argues that the minimum age of criminal responsibility in Scotland should be raised considerably and no child under the age of 18 should be tried as an adult, irrespective of the gravity of the offence.

The report states that those children under 18 should be placed in a specialised secure unit with staff trained to address mental health issues and the specific needs of vulnerable children. In 2004-5, a total of 7,652 peoples aged under 18 (including 123 under 16) were convicted in Scottish courts. Of these, a total of 749 cases resulted in custodial sentences, including 20 for people under the age of 16.

SMACKING

Currently in Scotland, the law does not give children the same protection from assault as it gives to adults.

The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 provides for a defence of "justifiable assault" on children by adults, if such an assault can be deemed to be "reasonable chastisement".

In 2002, the UN recommended a ban on smacking, describing it as "a serious violation of the dignity of the child". In the past few years courts have acquitted parents who have admitted using canes, belts and electric flexes to beat their children.

The Scottish Executive stopped short of an outright ban on smacking in 2003, leaving ministers at odds with the UN and a number of European countries.

The SACR report urges a change in the law to make any form of violence against a person under 18 a criminal offence.

IN CARE

The plight of "looked-after children" – those in local authority care – is a central concern. According to the report, these children continue to be one of the most marginalised groups in Scotland. Many of them have suffered from poverty and deprivation as well as the effects of drug and alcohol use, neglect and abuse.

Poor educational achievement, health problems and mental illness disproportionately affect this group.

The report demands a national strategy for looked-after children, including improved training for foster carers and residential child care workers and more resources. On the issue of mental health, there are concerns about shortages of child psychologists and adolescent counselling services, and the fact that many children have difficulties in accessing services, particularly in rural areas.







The full article contains 969 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 May 2008 9:12 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Sanny,

12/05/2008 01:08:36
Can we assume this is a Union Dividend. After eight years of a Labour Government that promised to allieviate this problem and lies that it has done so, we are to be Shamed by Europe. What makes this worse is tha not only do the labour party claim to be Socialist but Scotland is one of if not the most wealthy nations in Europe. There can be no excuse.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/05/2008 01:28:35
It really is a bit much for these childrens charities - all run by adults drawing funds from the government - to be whingeing on like this.

It is disappointing that so many young girls get themselves pregnant. That is down to the girls letting boys engage in acts of physical affection with them. If boys would stop engaging in acts of physical affection with them and if girls would stop letting them engage in acts of physical affection with them then they would not get pregnant. But it is not the Government's fault. Perhaps the government should not change the law to stop it being a crime for boys to engage in acts of physical affection with girls over 13, though, as they seem to be planning.

Next, smacking. The vast majority of parents would be appalled to be criminalised for giving their weans the odd skelp. Are the government going to turn their face against this? We'll see.

Criminal reponsibility. Presently you can't be prosecuted for murder if you're under eight. The charities want to raise this to 18, bless them. Now very few eight year olds murder people, so they don't get prosecuted. But far too many older kids do murder people. They know fine it's wrong but they still do murders and other serious crimes and they deserve to be prosecuted and tried and to get the jail for it. And actually, eight year olds know these things are wrong too.

Now as for the other things - it would be good to improve awareness of trafficking, and to improve educational attainment of looked after children. no doubt the charities can suggest ways in which if the government gave them lots of money they could help.

And that is what this story is really about. Self-interested charity bosses marketing themselves to win new contracts. Shamed By Europe my backside.


By the way - you are not allowed to use the words "sh*g" or "spa*king" on this website so I used the expressions "engaging in acts of physical affection with" and "smacking" instead. How very odd!!!
3

Samoyed,

Costa del Menie 12/05/2008 01:30:03
In figures published last week, The Scotsman’s full-rate circulation has fallen to just under 45,000; its overall figure, including bulks, was just over 50,000.

Not surprising with this approach to news, when you read the article and find that the "BY" is not the UN but a labour supported charity, very well known in their house at breakfast time.
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 01:32:34

One cant blame all that goes wrong on the Scottish Government!

How 'Stupid is that,?

Teenage Pregnancy:
As for "Teenage Pregnancies", short of mass, 'unlawful' forced contraception, what are they meant to do,?

Crime:
So 24hours before you reach the age of 18years old, you commit murder and the "Gravity" of the Offence is treated entirely differently, that makes sense don't it,?

Smacking:
Unfortunately this must be addressed, but the occasional 'slap on the rear' did me no harm!

IN CARE:
This is a disgrace and we can, 'Blame Government'

For me, most of our Children's problems are down to the lack of communication, whether it be parents to children, parents to parents, 'Families Life's' and Government to Parents and Children.

The Scottish 'race' are rubbish for it!

We are only to 'willing' to help others, but NOT our own!

Here's an example for instance; The Asian Community are all very close 'Family Minded' they all are concerned for each-other and look-after each-other and don't they do well in Scotland,? (need I say more,?)

But NO we hide all, expecting the best!

A bit like my father, (God bless his cotton socks)

When asked by the pharmacist, "How is your taking the prescribed dose of 'medication' going Mr Linskaill" he replied!

"Fine Doctor! I put the bottle to my mouth, swallow and 'hope for the best"

Needless to say 'Pharmacist was 'Mortified'!

And in this Paper today in the Health page,

"Scots child diagnosed with rare drink-related disease"

But NO! NO Comments allowed!
My Question would be, 'How do they know its drink related,?' wheres the proof,?

Again Lets NOT Talk! and the Problem will dissapear!

'Well-Done' Scotland!

I Dont think So!
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 01:46:04
And the 'Lyric' for this 'Topic',..

Its so funny how we dont talk anymore,
Its so funny why we dont talk anymore,
But I aint losing sleep and I aint counting sheep,
Its so funny how we dont talk anymore.

But I aint losing sleep and I aint counting sheep,
Its so funny how we dont talk anymore.

But I aint losing sleep and I aint counting sheep,
Its so funny how we dont talk anymore.
6

W Smith,

Middle East 12/05/2008 04:08:20
So one in four children in Scotland are "poor" then, eh?

LOAD OF RUBBISH!

Poverty in Africa causes malnutrition while "poverty" in Scotland causes obesity.

Considering many Scots like myself grew up with out double glazing, gas central heating, mobile phones, computer games, designer labels, holidays in Spain what does that make us!??

These 'reports' are made up by self-serving lefties who want to enlarge the Social Work Department even further with more experts on 'poverty' who need nice public sector salaries with car, petrol allowance and of course THE GOLD PLATED PENSIONS.

Lets face it some of these social workers are pot smoking socialist who have never had to do real work so they tend to embrace these reports on poverty as it protects them from job cuts.

Stupid teenage girls are encouraged to be single mums so they can get all the social securtiy benefits and it saves them for having to apply for jobs and face the responsibility of having to work for a living.

BTW
If you want anything from this government its better to be a drop-out, alcoholic, drug addict, criminal, illegal immigrant BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T CHOOSE TO WORK FOR A LIVING!
7

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/05/2008 06:23:17
The problem with Scotlands extremely high rate of Teenage pregnancy could be solved in 2 ways.

Stop teenage girls from jumping to the front of the que for Council flats if they become pregnant.

Far to many choose to get pregnant so they can get their own apartment. This leads to children being raised by children who later become "socially deprived" themselves.

It would be far better that if they become pregnant and where unable to remain at home with their parents that they where given accomadation in a supervised enviroment where they where encouaged to continue with their studies so that they could gain enough skills to be proper parents and useful members of the community.

For young lads who insist on casting their seed recklessly they should be made to contribute to the cost of raising their child. If they won't they should have all future earnings garnisheered as well as be denied the priviledge of a drivers licence, passport or credit cards. This could be easily done.

To just give children what they want regardless of the likely consequences is absolutely irresponsible. If you want to start tackling the problems of "deprived 2 year olds" then you need to look at changing policies that encourage their production.
8

Brother Walfrid,

12/05/2008 08:49:16
Scotland is an uncivilised country.
9

thinking,

Scotland 12/05/2008 09:01:27
Isn't it strange that when you go through a supposedly 'deprived' council estate there are so many satellite dishes, expensive kids bikes and good cars all around.
The UN constantly raises the bar on what is classed as poverty.
Apart from things like hunger, surely there is poverty in lack of family, lack of standards of behaviour, lack of good language etc. etc.?
10

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/05/2008 09:05:20
Another ridiculous article that refers to “poverty” without defining the term.

So let’s get this straight. In the UK, there is no “absolute” poverty, in the $1/day sense defined by the World Health Organisation. The only western European nation to have a significant amount of such poverty is Portugal.

Scotland (like every country) has “relative poverty”, which is defined as living on below 60% of the national median income after deducting housing costs.

The word “poverty” in the article above refers only to “relative poverty”.

This definition of “poverty” as a relative measure means that if the median income was £20k, “poverty” would be defined as below £12k (after housing costs). But if the median income increased to £30k, the new relative “poverty” threshold would be £18k. So the number of people counted as “poor” can increase while their incomes actually rise! In fact, that happened in Scotland in 2006, when average earnings and disposable incomes rose faster here than in any other part of the UK. The “poor” got richer, but more were counted as below the “poverty” threshold!

So in essence, relative “poverty” is a measure not of poverty in the sense most people would think of it, but of the effect of income disparity on the lower end of the scale.

Anyway, notwithstanding the slight blip in 2006, the mid-to-long term trend for relative “poverty” in Scotland is solidly downwards, from around 24% of the population in the latter half of the 1990s to an average of around 19% in the mid 2000s. This is about a one-fifth reduction in under a decade.

Finally, I would note that the overall level of relative “poverty” in Scotland is below the UK average of 22% and that relative “poverty” in households with children is down by a quarter in just a decade, from 32% of all children in the mid 1990s to an average of 25% over the last couple of years.
11

Robert12,

12/05/2008 09:11:12
Solve teenage pregnancy: Don't give them a free council house. Make them stay with their parents or live in a teenage mum's hostel if they're chucked out.
12

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/05/2008 09:11:57
Hello All,

Well, what can I say, except: You reap what you sow. (yes, double entendre intended)

Political Correctness has waylaid Scottish Culture and Society for such a long time, and waylaid it so hard, that unless people rise up en masse, kick out the PC judges, Social Services personnel, Politicians, and revamp the entire welfare system, teenage girls will still get pregnant out of wedlock and teenage boys will continue to line up to help the girls get pregnant!!!!

Cease IMMEDIATELY, the program to provide an apartment for any unwed women whom becomes pregnant. Dorm living (barracks) for any unwed mothers whose families will not have them.

Cease IMMEDIATELY any social payments for the unwed mother; either she, her family, or the father, should be required to provide for the welfare of the child.

FORCE IMMEDIATELY all unwed fathers to legally bear the financial burden of raising the child and providing funds for housing/clothing/etc., for the child. DNA testing can easily prove who is or is not the father of a child.

There is more that can be done, but these three policy changes would have an IMMEDIATE impact on LOWERING (and significantly so) the teen pregnancy rate.

Cheers from the Rockies
13

danielrober,

12/05/2008 09:41:43
Are these the same UN guys who got wrong the details in Sadam Hussains weapons of mass destruction in the late 1990's triggering off a process that started a war?
Or are these the same UN guys who live in 5* hotels?
Or are these the reformed drug users and alcoholics, seeking to save us from their fate?

Just wondering.
14

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 11:51:17
AM2

I agree with you (I don't often!) I am fed up with this sort of emotive language being used by charity careerists. I knew 'poverty' as a child, but I understood I was a hundred times better off than the kids in real poverty who starved to death. These days kids are in 'poverty' if they can't afford the latest mobile phone!

As to the child trafficking. What? Where? Who? How?
15

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:13:19
If you can't look after your kids,how the hell are you going to run a country; Independence I DON'T THINK SO.
16

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:31:16
15

God you are such a troll. Who the hell was talking about independence you maniac?
17

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:36:56
16.Now correct me if i'm wrong,but that seems to be the main topic of conversation on these threads,so I am simply pointing out the obvious.
18

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:41:08
I'm correcting you. This story wasn't about independence. You try to make it so, which is a bit pathetic. I am sure AM2 will agree that such tactics do your camp no good.

Would you care to make a cogent point about the article and subject in hand? So we can see how balanced you are and do have something to say about it...
19

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/05/2008 13:10:26
#18

Don't hold your breath for Kimba to say something relevant. She doesn't even do that on the Independence threads of which see is so obviously obsessed.
20

antifa,

12/05/2008 13:13:06
Neanderthal75 - please buzz off and ruin your own country. You seem to forget that single mothers, by definition, have children and by punishing one you punish the other.

Fortunately, bible-bashing extremists like you are in a small minority in Scotland.

AM2 - your point is a reasonable one. Instead of relative poverty the focus should perhaps be on inequality, which is known to have an impact on health outcomes etc.

That said, if you live in Edinburgh with two kids and a household income of 12k then, in my opinion, you are poor. You're not going to starve, but living a normal life will be difficult.
21

JT,

12/05/2008 13:14:55
instead of sending millions of pounds out to African and Asian dictators and junta's why not keep back some of it behind and sort our own problems out first. I dont donate to comic relief anymore as too much goes out of the country and projects that could help reduce teenage pregnancies, domestic abuse, elder abuse and child abuse. Sounds really selfish well its about bloody time.
22

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:16:43
The problem seems to be that these kids are left to do what they like when they like,they must be given a boundry,with severe concequences if they cross it.
23

Jackie Priest,

12/05/2008 13:18:52
#10

And there speaks the voice of a unionist fanatic who will go to any lengths to excuse the failure of the union and its hideous effect on modern day Scotland.

Scotland is by far the worst in western europe when it comes to poverty and associated problems, as stories like this comfirm time and time again.

The continual failure of unionist governments to even acknowledge the extent of this situation (which is born out by its supporters such as AM2, as we can see) is a disgrace. It is disgraceful, and I cannot believe the depths that people like him are prepared to stoop. Unreal.

I am disgusted, utterly digusted by you, AM2. Children suffer - children - and all you do is quibble about definitions. You shut your eyes and pretend pretend pretend simply because your big idea of a Great Big Britain is collapsing around your feet.

We can be safe in our knowledge that the UN knows much much better than a cyber-dogmatist like you. Thank God. If you and your like had your way, you would ignore it and carry on regardless. Which is in fact what has been happening in Scotland for decades. Shame on you and your petty unionist prancing. Shame on you.
24

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:25:30
23. Poverty has nothing to do with it,it's couldn't care less parents,who let their kids do what they want and reward them for misbehaving just so they can have a "quite life"
25

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 13:32:19
23 Jackie Priest
Whose fault is it that so many teenage girls in Scotland get pregnant and have to bring up their children on benefits? Is there not an issue of personal responsibility here?
26

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:38:41
Maybe these girls should learn to say NO!
27

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/05/2008 14:00:15
4 Charles Linskaill

Good morning to you, sir, and your DYW.

By the way, I defended your honour in a thread from yesterday.

The easiest way to get to it is to Google "Abortion Time for Women, The Scotsman" and my comments at 21 will reveal all.

Have a great day. It is gorgeous here and we are in the midst of our International TulipFest with thousands of bulbs donated from The Netherlands because a royal Dutch princess was born here at The Civic Hospital in the 1940s.

Finally put my organic garden in and can't wait for allthe delicious and nutritious and CHEAP produce to be harvested in July and August and September.

Growing your own organice veggies and herbs and some fruits is the only way to go!


28

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/05/2008 14:23:41
#23 Jackie Priest

If you read “Child Poverty in Rich Countries 2005” from the UNICEF Innocenti Research Centre you’ll see how wide of the mark your insistence that Scotland has been ground into the dirt by successive governments really is, and indeed how Britain, through the 1990s, made more progress than any other OECD24 country on reducing “relative” poverty in families with children.

You lambast me for being concerned with definitions. A substantial section of the UNICEF report is similarly focused, and it concludes that “agreed definitions and measures of poverty are essential if policy targets are to be set and met” and that “relative income poverty measures need to be supplemented by direct measures of material deprivation”. Indeed so.

Finally, you call me “a unionist fanatic”. Hmm. Let’s quickly review a smattering of your postings here.

In your mind, not voting SNP makes someone “less Scottish” than you. Indeed, you think that some non-nationalists aren’t even Scottish at all. For example, you claimed that “[Gordon] Brown is British not Scottish”.

You think that support for the United Kingdom represents “ideological contamination” of Scotland. You have said that “unionism is anti-Scottish as a matter of course, by definition”. Thus, you have called me “truly anti-Scottish” and an “enemy of Scotland”.

You think that the UK is anti-democratic. So you have called me “a very real and present danger to democracy” and moreover an “enemy of democracy”. Non-nationalists, to you, are “traitors”.

You’re totally incapable of remaining dispassionate. You have said that you think of me as “vile”, a “stupid little unionist freak of nature” and that you have feelings of “immense disgust and resentment” towards me.

Most worryingly, perhaps, you once claimed that “the psychological basis for my nationalism is vast and arises from a range of infallible positions”.

You have described English people as “typically horrible and arrogant”. You have said:
29

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/05/2008 14:24:08
[contd]

You have said: “most people I know abroad can't suffer the English”, and then when challenged on that you replied that you “don't think they're racist. They just don't like the English”.

You see the United Kingdom as representing “English interference” in Scotland.

You have attempted to justify “anti-Englishness in Scotland” by arguing that it is only “proportionate to England's behaviour towards Scotland”.

Yet in your mind I’m the “fanatic”. Aye, right!
30

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 12/05/2008 15:54:49
If Scots had been running our country within the cultural context in the last 300 years, we would not have such circumstances with the clear results of the parasitic union in hand.

31

Jackie Priest,

12/05/2008 16:03:54
AM2

And here you go again. Unreal.

You couldn't give a damn about Scotland. The conditions of poverty that exist in Scotland are an obscenity. They have no equivalent in Western Europe and few even in Eastern Europe these days.

To see people like you, with your fabricated defense of a union which has patently failed Scotland, make excuses for the unacceptable plight of such a huge percentage of children in our country makes me sick.

All of those things you list that I say about you fall way too short of what you actually are.

And, as usual, you haven't the first idea what you're talking about. You are a guy who wangles stats and peddles falsehoods while conveniently ignoring stuff, like this article, that indicates the reality.

I've lived in three Western European countries outside of Scotland and have signficant experience of others which I visit regularly thanks to my job.

In NONE of those countries would you ever find the kind of poverty that exists in Scotland. In NONE of those countries would you find the neglect of children on such a scale as it is in Scotland. And in NONE of those countries would you find the callous cold-blooded dismissal of the facts by people like you because of some bloated high and mighty Rule Brittanic garbage.

That MADE me a nationalist, you fool. Seeing, experiencing what life was like in other countries. Not spouting cliches and wangling stats in my favour like you. I came, I saw and could not believe how badly Scotland compared to what I've seen elsewhere.

You are the lowest of the low. You care nothing for the welfare of the people of Scotland. Not a damn thing. You are beyond contempt with your fruitbat Britnat fanaticism.

I'll tell you something, boy. If more people in Scotland could get a sniff of what things were like in other western european countries we'd have independence within a minute.

There's a good chance we're going to have it anyway. And, when I read your disgusting attempts to
32

Jackie Priest,

12/05/2008 16:05:31
There's a good chance we're going to have it anyway. And, when I read your disgusting attempts to excuse the poverty in Scotland, it's a reminder of how much we really need it.
33

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/05/2008 16:12:43
#29AM2

"Yet in your mind I’m the “fanatic”. Aye, right!"

Well you did cut and paste every one of his posts into your OneNote Notebook. Is that the the behaviour of a normal person? or a trulely obsessed fanatic?

I will say that defining poverty as 60% of the median income after housing costs is a bit stupid.

I hear a lot of people use terms like "Socially Deprived" as justification for all sorts of social engineering.

Whats does that mean? You are stuck with a Playstation 2 because your parents can't afford a Playstation3?
Or is it that you watch the telly on an old 26" cathode ray tube model rather that 36" LCD screen?

I live in a country where real social deprivation exists. Where children die because their parents don't have money for basic medical treatment.

When I here people on benifit whining that they can't afford the latest Nike trainers, I'm sorry but my heart is with the contract worker in the Nike factory who works a 48hr week so they can get 30 quid at the end of the month to feed their family.
34

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 12/05/2008 16:26:36
There are a great deal of eastern european countries whose national resources or industry are small, yet they have a general wealth of community and a respect for that which matters the most, their future, their children.

We have an nasty oaf of a thiefing union which has created a financial imbalance which has allowed english to buy up other areas of the world with no recourse to community.

We have the resources and we are not in control of them, disenfranchised parents mean busy parents, means badly raised kids.

INDEPENDENCE.

35

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/05/2008 16:26:46
#32 Jackie Priest

"The conditions of poverty that exist in Scotland are an obscenity. They have no equivalent in Western Europe and few even in Eastern Europe these days"

Your post is bizare and unfathomable, but thanks for making me chuckle. Life is too short for citing examles anywhere between Moldova and Paris.
36

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/05/2008 16:30:17
#32 Jackie

...Unless you mean social poverty, rather than monetary and material poverty.

37

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/05/2008 16:33:06
#20 Antifa

"That said, if you live in Edinburgh with two kids and a household income of 12k then, in my opinion, you are poor. You're not going to starve, but living a normal life will be difficult."

Why should you expect it? A normal life means getting up in the morning and going to work.

I researched on a UK website what I could expect to receive if I moved to London with my family and went on benefit. 47,000 pounds a year.

Almost as much as I make at my job. Why don't I take the easy life? Because I would be a bad example to my kids.


38

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/05/2008 16:38:15
#37 KampungHighlander

Agreed. Having able-bodied long-term unemployed people in a place that needs to import labour from abroad says a lot about some people's attitudes to life, and their self-respect.
39

Jackie Priest,

12/05/2008 16:58:23
#36

I mean all poverty on all levels. You would be surprised, Tin Man.

The key to the thing is the even distribution of wealth.

A higher standard of living exists across the board in mainland (western) european countries because they follow a social model where wealth is distributed evenly.

This doesn't happen in the UK, where the gap between rich and poor is very big. And it doesn't happen in Scotland because we live under the constraints of the UK.

Scotland needs the freedom to act to pursue a social model that corresponds to what the people in Scotland have always wanted. That's not going to happen while we remain in the UK, as remaining in the UK has already proved.
40

Alfred E. Neuman,

12/05/2008 17:16:52
How to get a free house and income in Scotland, get up the duff.

This will be met by higher taxes to pay for smegs with the future generation of neds, creating more incentive to get up the duff for a life of Jeremy Kyle viewing.
41

Alfred E. Neuman,

12/05/2008 17:19:01
39 Jackie Priest

Good idea Jackie, just help yourself to the cash in the pocket of the working middle classes to give to lazy smegs for free.

Did you see the UK has £40 million of vegetables about to rot in the ground because we can't find the workers to pick them?

Why work to raise a family when you can sit on your erse and just put an order in for money eh?
42

Jackie Priest,

12/05/2008 17:39:11
#41

"Did you see the UK has £40 million of vegetables about to rot in the ground because we can't find the workers to pick them?"

Quite. All the Poles are going home because Poland is wealthier and more appealing than Scotland. Proof in the pudding, what?

But, chin up, Alfie old son. That means less immigrants. I thought that would have pleased a little fascist cockroach like you.
43

pwd,

Borders 12/05/2008 17:47:03
Is it not sad that in a land of plenty Scotland manages to breed a disproportionately high number of dossers? There is no real poverty in Scotland apart from deprivation foisted on children by useless parents. Apart from the south of England, Scotch households have the highest disposable income in the UK after payment of tax, council tax, rent, insurance, pension contributions and mortgage interest payments. This is not well known because Salmond, Sturgeon, & Co don't want you to know, but the 2006 figure was £13071. Even allowing for uneven distribution most households have a very respectable sum coming in. If this is true, and it is, then dysfunctionalism must be laid very firmly at the door of the sufferers themselves. They certainly lack the virtues and fortitude which once Scots were renowned for. I don't know how we blame the usual suspects for this (the English) but in the meantime I do know we need a transformation in attitudes.
44

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 12/05/2008 17:47:53
#39 Tavorich Priest

The 'even distribution of wealth' is a most vague statement. How even is your 'even'? Would some people be more even than others?

Your statemnet that 'a higher standard of living exists across the board in mainland (western) european countries' is simply incorrect. You need to replace 'across the board' with the word 'some'.
45

A Reasonable Voice,

12/05/2008 17:49:46
Teenage pregnancy is going to be a problem, independent Scotland or independent England, or United Kingdom.

The key is going to be making sure that children (yes, children) who decide to engage in intercourse know its severe consequences. This involves learning at home the joys and pains of sexuality, as well as being adequately trained at school about the dangers (physical and financial) of engaging in sex too young. (And if Scotland had a more active faith community, teaching one respect for one's body would also not help.)

This is how we fix Scotland's problem, and how we fix the problem anywhere else it may manifest itself in the world.
46

Miss H,

12/05/2008 17:55:17
Of course poverty is a relative concept. I don’t see what is difficult to grasp about that. And the effects of relative poverty can be very damaging

Why else do people with no money get multiple credit cards and use them to pay off each other so they can buy satellite dishes, bikes, designer gear etc as poster 9 pointed out?

It is of course possible to say no and as a parent I have always said no when I considered that what I was being asked for was a waste of money. But I am not poor. My girls can’t turn round and say to me you are a rubbish mum because you can’t afford to give us what ‘everyone else’ has. They have to come up with other reasons why I am a rubbish mum.

We live in an immensely materialistic society and it hurts those who are excluded from it, children most of all because they lack the ability to understand that things are relative.
47

,

12/05/2008 18:15:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

JG,

Fife 12/05/2008 18:17:17
#26 Kimba

And maybe these boys should learn to keep it in their troosers.

Many of these young mums have inadequate parents who probably also had inadequate parents. Few people mention the lads in this scenario - go to the schools and tell them that if they have children they'll be paying for them until the child grows up. No exceptions, no excuses.
49

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 18:39:18
The Children's Charities and their Union

Representatives are part of the Network they do not

take responsibility they shift children around in

order to hide what has happened.
50

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 18:41:30


People may be affected adversely by exposure to them

and their children.
51

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 18:44:09


Health Centres who are part of the same Enterprise

Network may look the other way.
52

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 18:46:46

Children are simply removed from Local Records when it

suits them.

They can always be somewhere else. Australia for

example.
53

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 18:49:46
Children's upbringings are being undermined.

It is interesting to note that there is sometimes now a Social Division based upon occupation ie. those employed within the Network and those not even when children have attended the same School etc.
54

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 18:51:13


It is a Pantomime in which the School Social Worker's

daughter is Dorothy.
55

boudica,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 18:51:41
What a load of Mince ..according Jackie in Europe they spread the Wealth Evenly ..right ..I am sure the many Poor French and Germans , Italians , Sp[anish , Portugese Ect ...would love to know were and when this actually happens ..Jackie I would advise yoy too tour Western Europe , you will find many places that are " Poor " ..You think Scotland is the only one with run down Housing schemes ...Get real ..No matter what we do not have 3rd World Poverty in Scotland ..when the fact that a kid who may not have a bike is deemed underprivilaged ..shows how skewed these Charities are .. and as for poor people getting X amount of Credit cards to pay of other debts ..what planet are you on...Yep there are some who think nothing off getting credit up to the Hilt some live in Housing Schemes but more of them usualy live in Houses they cant afford either hence these "Private Housing Schemes" get called spam valley ...or they go creeping to The bank of Mum and Dad to get them out of it ..as for teenage pregnancies now that is a problem and should be dealt with both with compassion and a lot of esteem building excersises that can show a young girl that there are better ways to live your life ..
56

Anthony,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 19:04:31
Measures introduced by the last administration have dealt real damage to child protection. Social workers, on the strength of a two year diploma course, are now being asked to carry out risk assessments on sex offenders, which require detailed psychological profiling, on the basis of short meetings, which many people holding masters degrees in psychology would be reluctant to undertake, let alone commit to.

They are also in their role as court appointed supervisors, placing legal restrictions on people. Some of these may actually have been unlawful, and have blocked convicted people from appealing against their convictions. They, (the social workers) simply were not qualified to appreciate the legal significance of the restrictions they were imposing.

It's not the fault of the social workers. All they have done is try and keep things afloat. Rather, it is the previous administration and the really poor quality law officers advising them, who must take the blame.
57

kimba,

12/05/2008 19:17:08
48.Ofcourse your right,but would they give a damn!
58

boudica,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 19:28:50
56 ...anthony the Social failures have been happening a lot longer than 2 yrs ..it has been happening for over 20 ..how many times have you heard after another child has been murdered by their parents or relations and Social Work have been involved with the families for years ..We will learn from this ...The Social Work have done more damage than good because something most Social Workers lack is Common Sense ..They are too busy being Liberal Leftist Do Gooders who do no damn good to start with ..
59

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/05/2008 20:23:06
#31 #32 Jackie Priest

Your continued insults reflect only on yourself. I won’t be replying in kind.

Why are you so desperate to portray Scotland as a dismal failure? Here’s just one glaring example…

You said: “Poland is wealthier and more appealing than Scotland”.

This is so wide of the mark that I can’t even begin to understand why you might imagine such a thing. So here’s the kind of reply of mine which you so despise. Hard facts.


GDP (PPP) PER CAPITA:

Scotland (2005) – $33,460
Poland (2005) – $13,847

AVERAGE GROSS MONTHLY PAY:

Scotland (2006 avg) – $2941
Poland (Apr 2008) – $1395

UNEMPLOYMENT RATE:

Scotland (Feb 2008) – 4.9%
Poland (Jan 2008) – 11.7%

LONG-TERM UNEMPLOYMENT (12+ MONTHS):

Scotland – 1.2%
Poland – 7.0%

VERY LONG-TERM UNEMPLOYMENT (2+ YEARS):

Scotland – 0.6%
Poland – 4.1%

PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE LIVING ON LESS THAN $4 PER DAY (2004)

Scotland – 0%
Poland – 20.6%

LIFE EXPECTANCY:

Scotland (2007) – 77.1 years
Poland (2008) – 75.4 years

I could go on, but this is like shooting fish in a barrel. Even income inequality (evidently your socialistic bugbear du jour) is lower in Scotland than in Poland.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/S04/index.shtml
http://www.poverty.org.uk/L02/index.shtml
60

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/05/2008 20:26:17
#33 KampungHighlander

Heh! It's quicker and easier to keep a note of each extreme comment and then just throw them back at him than to actually try and answer each of his bizarre accusations and insults. That way, people can see who they're dealing with.
61

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 21:04:17


With the creation of Community Schools and the Management and Financial Structure developed in 2000 has come the creation of a Community Construct in which roles have been allocated.

The Sheriff Court and the Children's Hearing System discriminate against Parents who are not employed within this.

62

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 21:35:04


This is a Social Division which is being widened.

Very Fast.
63

Digory,

Narnia Scotland 12/05/2008 21:36:51


Hence the need for so many more (employed) Foster

Parents.
64

Boggle fey the Bog,

12/05/2008 21:51:32
37 KampungHighlander,
Jakarta 12/05/2008 16:33:06

"I researched on a UK website what I could expect to receive if I moved to London with my family and went on benefit. 47,000 pounds a year"

Your talkin Keech!!!
65

Robert12,

12/05/2008 22:07:42
Miss H you have it spot on. People think they NEED a brand new car, Sky TV and the latest console. They go out and buy all these things on credit paying a lot more. I get paid a decent wage but I still drive a 10 year old car. I still have a CRT TV with the free Virgin TV. I could go out right now and get credit to buy a shiney new car and enormous TV. I don't need these things. No-one NEEDS them.

My parents brought me up to understand that you should save to buy things. Too many people these days have been brought up seeing parents flashing the credit card. People view credit as "free" money and banks don't help by increasing the balances making people think they have more and more money when the reality is getting more and more in debt.
66

uno.who,

Livingston 12/05/2008 22:11:38
God save us from SACR and all other interfering, unelected busybodies. Scottish society is, hopefully, based on common sense policies.
Separately, teenage pregnancy has nothing to do (directly) with government and is all about the loss of morality in society in general PLUS a fair bit of parental inadequacy (children in foster care suffer from this too .... they're not all orphans, you know!). However, I'm sure the rcent anouncement by the children's minister of decriminalising under-age sex will have a major impact ... although probably not the positive one she expects.
67

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 23:24:41
Tim @#27, Thankyou.
68

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/05/2008 18:51:45
#45

"learning at home the joys and pains of sexuality"

And i thought that was a criminal offence.

"And if Scotland had a more active faith community"

Given your previous comment are we talking Texas Mormons?

69

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/05/2008 19:06:00
#64 Bogle

I filled out an online form available on the local council website with the fact that me and my wife where not working and that my four children are still at school. I put in that I was paying 500 pounds a week for private rented accomadation ( probably a little light for london), you might be able to claim a higher figure, I didn't test that, and the website told me I was entitled to 47,000 pounds of government largese.

If you want to give me an email address I will happily email you the PDF I saved otherwise you can log on to the Kensington and Chelsea local government website and input the figures I gave you. 2 parents 4 kids 500 perweek in rent. You will get the same result.
70

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/05/2008 19:21:27
#64 Bogle

I went to the Kensington and Chelsea local government site. I filled out an online social welfare entitlement form. I entered the facts of my family. 2 Adults 4 Kids. I put to that no one was employed and that we were paying 500 per month to a private landlord. I could have probably claimed a higher amount and been compensated 100% for the rent, but I didn't test that. The website calculated my family was entitled to 47,000 per annum in various government benifits. If you dont believe me try the exercise yourself or send me an email address. I was so impressed I saved it as a PDF file.
71

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/05/2008 19:43:55
#66

"Separately, teenage pregnancy has nothing to do (directly) with government"

That is outright BS. If you want to get on the council house ladder(as opposed to the property ladder) the only way to do this is have a dependant child.

Single teenagers without dependants are left to live on the street.

What started out as a way of prioritising access to a scarce social welfare resource has now become the minimum tariff for housing.
72

FBGA,

South of England 13/05/2008 21:26:40
Why do those who govern in Scotland not hold the Judicial Inquiries into past abuse commited on looked after children which are required to ensure the current care system in Scotland is in fact Fit For Purpose.
It is obvious that nothing has changed in Scotland and there is no doubt that those who are in power are in collusion to coverup and conceal this past abuse as to have the inquiries so clearly nessecary as it would mean they would have to investigate the state bodies including the past investigations of paeophiles who went on to hold high office in the Scottish care system including children's panels.

Quarriers is a corrupt care home charity built on nepotism where 9 ex-employees have been convicted of abusing children. Yet no Inquiry even though Nicola Sturgeon demanded one while in opposition. We continue to call for a full judicial Inquiry.

Former boys and Girls abused in Quarriers Homes
73

Sebastian J E De Carss,

Glasgow 14/05/2008 16:39:28


THE ABUSE ISSUES OF CHARITY HOMES WILL NOT GO AWAY AS EASY : THE ABUSE ISSUES AS NEVER PROPERLY BEEN INVESTIGATED ..THE AUSE ISSUES STILL ARE STANDING TO BE OR NOT TO BE ANSWERABLE TO HISTORY ...WE WILL SEE FROM HAUT DE LA GARENNE IN JERSEY INVESTIGATION 2008

I AM A BONFIRE SURVIVOR STILL WAITING AFTER AN VERY SUCCSSFULL CIVIL RIGHT CASE VERSE DR BARNARDO'S FOR THEIR HORRFIC COVER UPS OF THEIR CARE WORKERS SEXUAL ABUSING AND KILLINGS OFF VULNERABLE CHILDREN ON BONFIRE'S ALIVE IN A CARE HOME 1960s to 1970s .
SPRINGHILL SCHOLL
THE OLD BISHOP'S PALACE CONCENTRATION CAMP FOR THE CHILD STOLEN CHILDREN 1960s to 1970s
www.bbc.co.uk/news
THE CHILDREN ENGLAND DID NOT WANT
BARNARDO'S CHILD MIGRANT.

www.bbc.co.uk/news
ABUSE VICTIMS TO SUE BARNARDO'S
BARNARDO'S MAN PLEADS QUILTY TO ABUSE
BARNARDO'S CARER JAILED. ( BONFIRES KILLINGS GIRLS ALIVE 1960s )

MY BEST WISHES TO ALL CHARITY ABUSE SURVIVORS

SEBASTIAN J E DE CARSS
SCOTTISH

 

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