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Salmond's local income tax'will hamper bid to retain HBOS jobs'



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Published Date: 26 September 2008
THE local income tax proposed by Alex Salmond will damage Scotland's chances of retaining jobs and headquarters functions when Lloyds TSB takes over HBOS, Labour said yesterday.
Iain Gray, the new Scottish Labour leader, used his first confrontational exchange with Mr Salmond at First Minister's Questions to demand the Scottish Government drop its local income tax (LIT) plans.

Mr Salmond insisted, however, that not only did Scots want a local income tax but the "vast majority" of workers in the financial sector would be better off under the new levies.

This was Mr Gray's second appearance at First Minister's Questions since he succeeded Wendy Alexander earlier this month, but it was the first time he and Mr Salmond had clashed on policy.

Last week, the chamber was united in trying to find out what would happen following the HBOS deal and all the party leaders stayed away from party- political attacks.

By yesterday, that consensus had disappeared and Mr Gray used the takeover to lambast the SNP government's controversial plans for a replacement for the council tax.

In an assured and combative performance, Mr Gray said Mr Salmond had promised to "strain every sinew" to retain HBOS headquarters functions.

"We have to make Scotland as attractive as possible to do that," Mr Gray said.

"There is a consensus that his Scottish national income tax plan will do the opposite."

The Scottish Government has promised to push ahead with its local income tax plans in the face of heavy criticism, particularly from the business community.

The CBI has said the tax could damage hopes of growing the economy and attracting talent to Scotland, and other business bodies and unions agreed.

"There is a consensus," Mr Gray said. "Will the First Minister strengthen Scotland's case for the HBOS HQ right here, right now, by committing today to ditch his damaging local income tax plans?"

The First Minister replied: "Local income tax carries a consensus support of the Scottish people. We will see in due course whether it carries the support of the Scottish Parliament.

"The vast majority of workers in the financial sector would also benefit from fairer and local taxation.

"Iain Gray should join the consensus of the Scottish people, who think the days of the council tax should be over and local income tax should come in," he added. Mr Gray retorted that recent polls suggested only 46 per cent supported the new tax, not the "consensus" of the Scottish people, Mr Salmond claimed.

"There are thousands of jobs at stake," Mr Gray said. "Those workers are concerned that if we fail to keep those jobs here in Scotland, they won't be paying any tax, certainly not income tax, because their jobs will have been lost.

"I say to the First Minister, think of the signal this would send to Lloyds TSB and to those workers about how serious he is about making this case.

"Does he care enough, is he big enough? He said he would strain every sinew, but in reality, he is standing idly by on this. I ask again – will he drop the discredited local income tax now?"

Mr Salmond denied he could be accused of doing little over the past week. "The reality is that we have sought to build a consensus," he said.

The HBOS jobs and HQ issue was "absolutely fundamental", said Mr Salmond.

"I think I should demand as First Minister for this chamber to unite behind the positive Scottish case we are presenting to HBOS."

The current state of affairs had come about under the watch of UK authorities, he claimed.

Mr Salmond said: "How much better it would be, in making the argument to any corporate headquarters, if we could make the argument for a competitive corporation tax in Scotland that would bring jobs, investment and real decision-making into this economy."

The full article contains 652 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 September 2008 9:13 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Halifax Bank of Scotland
 
1

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 26/09/2008 00:15:08
So there we are. Gray becomes Wendy.

I thought for a minute he would approach things differently. But in the midst of this financial crisis he chooses to manufacture a link between HBOS and LIT (or Scottish National Income Tax as Gray calls it. Nice soundbite.)

Back to playground politics where politicians try to satisfy their own egos, while 'national taxpayers' pick up the cost of their hard-earned salaries.
2

Royster,

26/09/2008 00:17:05
Why would a bank puts its HQ in Scotland if its senior management will be worse off under Local Income Tax? Okay for call centres I suppose but not for HQs. Salmond is dumbing down Scotland though he plays to gallery by running around to make it look as if he is doing something useful.
3

alba nach,

Tarbert 26/09/2008 00:21:17
Hamish must have been watching a different FMQs to the one I watched today. No mention of Gray being put firmly in his place. No mention of the spectacular own goal over nuclear power.
4

,

26/09/2008 00:22:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/09/2008 00:25:57
Royster, senior lloyds management are simply paying Salmond lip service. Nothing more.

There is no way that the HQ will come to Scotland. Indeed why should it? London is the obvious choice.

As for safeguarding Scottish Jobs, thats a non starter as well. Why should Scottish jobs be treated as a priority over English and Welsh ones? The answer is, they shouldn't.
6

PJ07,

26/09/2008 00:33:25
Scottish jobs should be a priority for SCOTTISH politicians.

ROYSTER/RUFUS there is medicatio9n you can get for your psychosis you know.
7

Edward,

26/09/2008 00:52:02
Its obvious that Labour MSP's in Holyrood have now been breifed to link LIT as much as possible with the HBOS story, regardless of how stupid they sound in doing so. We had Wendy going of on one the day before, which sounded idiotic. Now we have Iain Gray making a bigger idiot of himself than usual. Dont they realise they are making themselves look idiots, when they start to go of at a tangent, when trying to talk about HBOS and how to ensure jobs are secured.
8

Edward,

26/09/2008 01:00:32
Last nights Newsnight Scotland decended into farce, when Labour's David Whitton managed to get the soundbite of 'Nationalist Tax' in when trying to talk about saving HBOS. Even Gordon Brewer thought he was stupid to try and link the two.
The bigger idiot however was Mike Rumbles of the Libdems, being beamed from Aberdeen (safe distance), who realy became an embaressment as he couldnt stick to the HBOS story, but started in on talking of the Libdems proposed 2p tax cut!. Even when reminded that he was supposed to be talking about what his views were on the Scottish Goverenments efforts on HBOS, he ignored and continued like some deaf uncle that babbles on incoherently - o the extent it was noticable that David Whittom and SNP's Alex Neil seem to share a joke and laughed at Rumbles!
9

Edward,

26/09/2008 01:45:27
#14
What on earth are you on about? Forgotten your medicine or something as your comments,like Labour bare any relation to the story
10

JamesMc,

Asia 26/09/2008 03:24:12
Shame on Labour again....trying to make a political issue out of saving a Scottish Institution.

The only consenus here is that the Scottish people do not want the council tax: SEE recent You Gov poll for Sunday Times:

Alex Salmond has announced that he wishes to replace Council Tax with an increase of 3p in the pound Income Tax, so that the standard rate would rise from 20p to 23p in the pound. Do you support or oppose this measure?
Support 46
Oppose 31
Don't know 23
11

Royster,

26/09/2008 03:29:09
Salmond's policies are counter-intuitive. Set up your HQ in Scotland then your well-qualified, high earners can pay more tax than they would in England. It's going to go down a storm at board level that one. And Salmond's a 'trained' economist don't you know?
12

Richardinho,

26/09/2008 04:08:55
This pathetic posturing from Labour will actually make it more difficult to try and save HBOS jobs. Why give Lloyds TSB an excuse to get rid of the Bank of Scotland altogether? This really beggars belief from the labour party.
13

Theologist,

Auckland 26/09/2008 04:43:11
#9 Wuddled Fords........may forget their sums, but not their old Genesis records, it seems
14

donald,

glasgow 26/09/2008 04:43:16
I hope Gray's gumboil gets better.
15

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 26/09/2008 04:54:11
You have to have a bit of a laugh at the unionists and their desperation here.

LIT - 'Scotland Income Tax' - LOL

How about the 'Scotland zero rates benefit'.

Disengeniously playing with words. It's this attaitude that will prevent Scotalnd from having a Scandanavian type liberal democracy more than anything else.

Partisan self interest - shamefull
16

Royster,

26/09/2008 05:26:05
#23. Dougie, the council tax is peanuts compared to an extra 3% on income tax for a high-earner. It pushes Scotland's tax rate to 43% compared to 40% in the rest of the UK.
17

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 26/09/2008 05:56:25
#24 Please provide an example of your calculation,I make 3% of £100,000 £3000 I pay £2100 on a realtively modest property at the moment.
18

Royster,

26/09/2008 06:14:12
#25. What about dividend payments?
19

Royster,

26/09/2008 06:15:29
#25. What about bonus payments plus those of wives? It's not as if the people running Loyds TSB can't make a case for London is it?
20

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:22:19
25

LIT is a replacement tax Royster not an additional tax as you are so clearly trying so hard to imply.
Anybody earning more than just over 74000 per annum will end up paying more sure enough but everybody earning below that sum pays less over all tax.
Thats what makes LIT a more fairer more social and more palatable tax than the council tax added onto income tax.

But you knew all this already the LIT arguement has been done over dozens of times already
21

Royster,

26/09/2008 06:25:44
#28. People who decide where HQs go don't give a stuff about fairness otherwise they wouldn't be at the top of their profession. Ony deluded idealists think differently.
22

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:26:07
26

What about them? dividend payments are charged under corporation tax didnt you know that?

Been over all this.

What about bonus payments?
23

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:27:31
29

Oh right we are back to personal opinion again as a base for arguing company policy well Royster your entitiled to yours.
24

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:36:40
24

And would you believe we had New Duncan on here the other day swearing blind that the high earners would be the only ones to benefit from LIT.
You unionist trolls cant even agree on your anti LIT spin but then it doesnt matter does it the only real problem with it is its going to cause a major disparity in tax levels north and south of the border with those down south being much worse off.
Another poll tax type rebellion is on its way and thats the only reason Labour are fighting it.
25

Richardinho,

26/09/2008 06:40:02
"People who decide where HQs go don't give a stuff about fairness otherwise they wouldn't be at the top of their profession. Ony deluded idealists think differently."

So you agree that Local Income Tax would be a fairer system?
It seems that the Labour party is simply taking the side of the rich against the interests of the poor who would benefit from LIT.
Plus ca change!
26

Royster,

26/09/2008 06:42:13
#32. I wouldn't call it 'spin'.. simple logic may be. Making the bosses pay more income tax compared to the rest of the UK is hardly an incentive for them to come to Edinburgh is it... especially when Lloyds TSB already has an HQ in London? Of course, this may not appear fair but we are living in the real world not hoppity bunny land like most SNP supporters.
27

Mcsnagpile,

26/09/2008 06:44:19
What Alex should realise is the BOS is an antique piece. I have been a loyal customer for many years despite the lack of services. Multi currency account –ye wot. Until recently I had to have a Lloyd debit account to use overseas. My offshore account is an expensive joke. An Indian Brummy with milk bottom glasses as a rep for the BOS is an insult to the Scottish nation. Maybe the Scottish are really Indian Brummies in disguise— nobody seems worried. The property crisis is not a cause but a symptom.

Get rid of Halifax, Lloyds is a dinosaur They should be getting in tow with a bank like HSBC( or a major European bank), that can give us multi national 21st century services and still preserve the dignity of the BOS—something that HSBC needs.
28

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 26/09/2008 06:47:38
I can't see anything in Iain Gray's comments where he explains what the connection actually is between LIT snd the decision about HBOS.

Unionists often claim that LIT will raise less revenue than the council tax. I don't really understand why it should be, that a lower tax burden would deter businesses from operating here.
29

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:49:05
34

But Royster if they stay up here they wont have to pay council tax.
LIT is a replacement tax not an added tax.
In fact the bosses can own 2 or more homes in Scotland and not be penalised for it.
They can spend their massive profits and salaries on massive homes and not be penalised for it.
Now that would sound attractive to me where I a boss with money to spend.
30

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:52:36
34

And another benefit of LIT not mentioned so far is the benefit it would have on the housing market.
People can now buy the best property they can afford without being penalised for it.
31

Royster,

26/09/2008 06:53:25
#37. They can stay in England, still buy the houses and make even more.
32

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:56:31
36

Thats because there isnt one new Labour and the tories are terrified that they will have to reform the local taxes down south Whent the benefits of LIT kick in in Scotland or risk another poll tax type rebellion and that on top of the fact that it effectively takes the local tax burden away from those who can least afford it and puts it onto those who can afford it.
Very unconservative.
33

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:57:31
39

But if they stay in England they get hit with a double whammy of LIT and council tax.
34

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 06:58:28
41

Actually thats not true they wont get charged LIT at all but they will get charged council tax.
35

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA for more WAR VOTE McCain 26/09/2008 07:00:30
23
Dougie Douglas,
Brisbane

Hey, are U one of those dudes, who abandoned Scotland and then hypocritically tongue lashes all that is not of a SNP mind set.

If all the Scots did what u did, abandon the ship of Scotland.

The country would be filled with roaming wild life, and the Queen and her mutant gang, would have it as their own hunting, shootin, and fishin playground.

People who abandon their country like U did . are like the people who do not vote . They have no right to bitch about the elected government in their original country.

Chill dude U can change nothing .

GC
36

Richardinho,

26/09/2008 07:04:35
"it effectively takes the local tax burden away from those who can least afford it and puts it onto those who can afford it."

That's it. This is not a case of 'taxing the rich until the pips squeak', this is a case of people paying according to their ability to pay, which strikes me as a fair way of doing things.

Royster is essentially saying that the wealthy should be taxed less to encourage wealth creation, as if these people are the only ones capable of creating wealth.

Having a more even system of taxation will encourage greater numbers of people to invest and start businesses, and apart from anything else, a successful business needs customers with money to spend.
37

MWM,

Argyll 26/09/2008 07:08:44
Usual cr*p we have come to expect from the Hootsmon. Hamish MacDonut has now obviously been given a new job as Iain Gray's Spin Doctor.

38

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/09/2008 07:18:34
Hey Parcel, you need to get yourself a life. You sit on here 24 hours a day commenting on every story going.

It cannot be very healthy. Have you never thought of taking up a hobby or even getting out the house for half an hour?

39

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 26/09/2008 07:18:51
what would ian gray put in the place of council tax.Bad mouthing the Snp polices is ok ,but only if you have polices that are better and will work to the benifit of the scottish people.I am a pensioner and i will pay zero under LIT,so as the the gerbil would say
BRING IT ON.Gray by name GRAY by nature
40

argonaut,

east lothian 26/09/2008 07:26:06
Truly - there are some selfish gits on here.
Since i was a kid in this country local taxation has always been an issue. rates , poll tax , council tax - none popular with the general joe public and none of them destined to last for one very simple reason - scottish joe public want to percieve that the monies they give in local taxation is at least fair. tax based on our ability to pay ! its a universal concept. property has never or shall be an indicator of the monies an individual actually has and property certainly does not dictate what local services that person/persons utilise - humans do !!
taxation based on ability to pay is nearest we can come to fairness. I was hoping Gray would be his own man at holyrood, forlorn hope - his strings like wendy's are defo being pulled from num10. the labour strategists have clicked - LIT in scotland = more happy scots = labour get an even bigger kicking. gray was right on one thing. the snp would happily watch cameron win num10 and he will. england will vote him in..ironic really - after all this time - of all external factors - it shall be the english that do more for scottish independence. cameron knows scotland is lost to his party forever, strategically they have long given up on us. cameron will be the next PM, english votes for english issues or english parliament follows,union fractures even more - shortly after - scottish referendum takes place. scotland once again becomes a sovereign country and bans trident etc etc etc. no brainer really
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:33:16
46

A life? like trolling for the Scotsman under multi logons? that kind of life?
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:33:40
46

I am out of the house now.
43

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:36:15
47

New Labour plan to upgrade the council tax by changing the band levels upward of course to refect todays house prices relative to the house prices of 1991 and to increace the tax annually above the rate of inflation as usual.
So I can see the case they are building against LIT I really can.
44

Montford's Jaicket,

26/09/2008 07:37:29
LIT will cost Scotland the HBOS HQ - NotLabour tells us so - it must be true. Unfortunately, NotLabour, to my memory, have told us many things over the years - they told us they wold be tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. They told us they would listen to the public's viewpoint. There is long list of things NotLabour have said, starting with Phony Tony's list of things he would do in 1997-2001.

Why should we listen to - or worse still believe - ANYTHING that Labour say to us any more? All I want our NotLabour PM to tell us is that he is calling a General Election. Fact is NotLabour won't stop telling us things.Fact is, they are not to be trusted. NotLabour. NotHonest. NotWanted. By anyone.
45

Royster,

26/09/2008 07:39:52
#41. Not if they own second homes in Scotland.
46

Linda,

Edinburgh 26/09/2008 07:41:43
Disgraceful performance by Labour and Lib Dems to break Scottish Parliament consensus behind Alex Salmond's sterling efforts on behalf of HBOS workers and customers.

The case for or against LIT or Lib Dems nonsensical idea to reduce Income Tax by 6p (Clegg's 4p plus 2p in Scotland) which will take £2.4 billion from Scottish Government's budget have no bearing on saving HQ functions which are already happily located in Edinburgh.
47

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:44:03
53

Are you talking about an Independent Scotland?
Why on earth would anybody have first home in a country which is taxed and a second home in a country which isnt?
48

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 26/09/2008 07:46:16
What we need are lower taxes not different taxes. A huge proportion of council monies go to social work departments that create dependancy and enforcing a halving of staff numbers in these areas every year for the next ten years should see us down to less than a hundred of these worthless jobs, then in the final year we can ban the job altogether. If you want to help people then lead by example and sitting in a non-job as social workers do and stealing money from the taxpayers isn't setting a good example. Stop all payments of tax monies to single mothers including automatic housing provision and see how quickly they get a man into their childrens lives and the children's behaviour improves at home and at school. In short get the government off of families backs from taxation to the interfering busibodies of social work and things will only improve. Neither Salmond nor Brown seem to understand this extremely simple fact. Luckily given the world financial "disaster" they will have no choice in the matter.
49

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 26/09/2008 07:47:31
Salmond must produce solid proof that most Scots want local income tax (as he claims). There is no evidence, so far.

ANY tax that punishes wealth creation is STUPID!
50

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:49:30
56

What we need are lower taxes not different taxes

With LIT yer getting both unless you earn over 74k per annum. But I agree we need to cut taxes even more our tax burden is a nightmare and we pay far too many different types of taxation.
51

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:50:26
57

Where was the solid proof for introducing the poll tax and council taxes? and what did it prove?
52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:51:49
57

Council tax punishes wealth creation doesnt it?
When property assets increace in value the tax on them increaces as well.
No of course your not an idiot.
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 07:53:15
57

And what about LVT? wouldnt an increace in land value not also increace the tax value on that land?
54

Richardinho,

26/09/2008 08:11:28
'Salmond must produce solid proof that most Scots want local income tax (as he claims). There is no evidence, so far.'

The proof you require is the last election.

"ANY tax that punishes wealth creation is STUPID!"

So you too believe that only the wealthy can create wealth?
55

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 26/09/2008 08:14:35
#62
Dave, where on earth are you going to find a "well respected" financial guru?

Every day it becomes clearer that the current problems are the result of financial terrorism by the financiers - aided and abetted by the politicians.

Line the lot up against the wall!
56

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:15:17
62

Its all irrelevant without Independence.
57

Rufus T. Firefly,

26/09/2008 08:15:30
Hey Parcel I do not use multi Logons, I am always the much hated Rufus.

Are you posting from work then?

You should tell them to invest in a spell checker. Anyone who cannnot spell 'increase' could probably make a very good case for one.
58

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:16:07
#55. Obviously if the big Lloyds TSB boss works in London at the current HQ he and his wife will pay only 40% income tax on their salaries, dividends, rental income, bonuses + worldwide income. He will also pay Council tax on his home in England. Should he wish, he could still buy a second home in Scotland and pay nothing towards the local community as, being resident in London, he will not have to pay Scottish LIT. If he moved the HQ to Scotland - I assume he would be resident in Scotland though he could commute from Berwick - he would then have to pay 43% on all his different sources of income which would be thousands more than he saves on council tax. As a wealthy person, he may be able to afford this but why would he if he has no link to Scotland? Of course, the boss of Lloyds TSB only has one vote so the SNP doesn't care. The SNP doesn't care about Scottish jobs being lost, it just wants votes.
59

It's me!,

26/09/2008 08:19:40
Labour want to replace council tax with a property based tax. In other words they want to tinker around the edges of the present tax and give it a new name. Not good enough! Labour MSP's are closed to anything other than their own agenda believing only they can have good ideas. Well, others have good ideas but I haven't seen Labour come up with any good ideas for some time now. They are stale, yesterdays people, and need to be binned.
60

Cramondo,

Edinburgh 26/09/2008 08:19:45
By calling a tax levied at Sotland level a "local" income tax, are the Nats saying that Scotland is a locality, not a nation?

I appreciate that whatever the chief banker, Mr Salmond, says must be right, and it is treasonous treacherous quisling-ery to challenge him, but still....
61

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:20:36
I think expensive Berwick property will benefit the most from LIT. It would make sense for wealthy Scots to move there.
62

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:22:02
And they could still claim they weren't leaving Scotland.
63

Jacqueline Hyde ,

Back on topic 26/09/2008 08:23:12
Political hot air from Grey-Gray doesn't really impress anyone.

There's a whole barrowload of reasons why local income tax will prove to be too difficult and too expensive to collect - for a start, almost 20% of Scottish residents are employed by companies that base their payroll systems in England and are, therefore, taxed through English tax offices. Unless the entire UK tax system is re-organised to accommodate the Scottish tax, the Scottish Government will need to set up a whole new tax collecting structure. The mind boggles!
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:25:13
71 72

Oh aye no doubt Berwick is set to become the new London.
65

Richardinho,

26/09/2008 08:25:27
#73 But the collection system doesn't have to change, only the rate at which people pay.
66

Richardinho,

26/09/2008 08:25:27
#73 But the collection system doesn't have to change, only the rate at which people pay.
67

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:27:02
73

That a load of cack thats already been brought up here at least a dozen times. LIT is easier to collect than council tax or poll tax ever was. Its just 3p added onto an already collected income tax system which will be earmarked for local spending.
68

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:27:29
73

And its harder to avoid.
69

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:31:43
#74. Well it's quite a nice place with a good rail link and if you can save thousands of pounds by moving there, why not? I'm talking about Scottish millionaires of course. You may even see Souter sneaking off there. Of course, the Nats couldn't accuse him of abandoning the country.
70

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 08:35:35
#67 It's absolutely hilarious that you're attacking this issue with such terrier-like persistence. You SERIOUSLY think that a bank would make a decision on the positioning of its HQ based on whether the chief exec - people paid in the MILLIONS - might have to find an extra £2000 in tax?

Seriously?

Is that truly and honestly your position?

Of all the things a bank might consider when making such a decision, you reckon a personal extra tax expense for senior management of about 0.1% is going to be the thing that swings it?

Are you drunk?
71

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 08:36:50
(Bearing in mind, of course, that the SNP's position is that an independent Scotland would also have much lower Corporation Tax.)
72

Richard Lionheart,

26/09/2008 08:39:41
Strange, when Iain Gray was Enterprise Minister, I don’t recall him thinking that Government policy could have any adverse effect on the Employment market. Funny the way opinions change in opposition.
73

Calum Crubag,

26/09/2008 08:46:21
SALMOND'S LOCAL INCOME TAX WILL 'STRANGLE ALL NEW BORN BABIES'.

By Pravda Labourrag
74

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:46:29
#80. A lower corporation tax would trump an income decision but that's not currently an option whereas scrapping the LIT is. But you assume that an independent England would not match - or even undercut - a cut in corporation tax by an independent Scotland. Of course, the people who decide on the location of the HQ are the extremely wealthy board members and their decision has to be approved by shareholders. Given the current set up with LIT, Scotland is simply less attractive especially as Lloyds TSB currently has a perfectly good HQ in London.
75

Calum Crubag,

26/09/2008 08:47:45
LOCAL INCOME TAX MEANS THAT RICH SCOTS WILL NOW BE POORER THAN ERITREANS

By Peter MacMaThoin
76

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:48:09
#80. We're not talking about 2,000 quid. For the very wealthy, we're talking about savings of tens of thousands if not more.
77

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:48:18
80

No he is a troll he doesnt post anything unless it has a wind up value.
78

It's me!,

26/09/2008 08:49:27
Cancel council tax UK wide and add a levy to be collected with vat. That way everyone will pay a share according to their means irrespective of income or dividends. Most council spending comes from central government anyway and this sacred cow that an element must come locally is just plain daft. Hundreds of local authority collection offices can close (except for collecting arrears)and the staff put on jobs where they actually provide services which is what they are supposed to do. Buy a Ferrari then pay a bit extra. Buy a rugby or football top then pay a little bit extra. Hard to avoid and much, much fairer.
79

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 08:51:32
#84 So you ARE still sticking to the line that such a major decision would be made on the basis of a 0.1% extra personal tax burden on a tiny handful of already absurdly wealthy senior managers?

Honestly? You're really telling us you believe that?

You seem extraordinarily confused on the other matters. Why is lower corporation tax "not an option" yet LIT is "current"? Unless I've missed a news story, we don't have LIT yet, and we have a minority government that isn't capable of forcing it through. Should we ever get a majority SNP government, it seems highly likely that we'd be independent then or very shortly afterwards, enabling the Corporation Tax cuts to be made.
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:52:29
84

Royster all of that is your own personal opinion based on an anti SNP bias nothing more.
You can neither prove any of that produce any precedence when or where this has happened in the past nor back it up with written statements from HBOS management stating they are going to move down south because of LIT.
Your post is worthless as anything other than party political bias opinion.
81

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 08:54:12
#86 "We're not talking about 2,000 quid. For the very wealthy, we're talking about savings of tens of thousands if not more."


Yeah, because these people already pay their full tax obligations, of course. They certainly don't employ armies of accountants to slash their tax bills to fractions of what they should be.

To the "very wealthy", £10,000 is a single tankful of fuel for the yacht. (Handy trivia fact that I picked up watching Top Trumps, fans of local colour.) It's the equivalent of the loose change the rest of us lose down the back of the sofa.
82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:55:03
84

In fact you cant produce a single instance of any company planning to pull out of Scotland due to LIT.
83

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:56:49
84

Name one company in Scotland planning on pulling out due to LIT legislation?
84

Royster,

26/09/2008 08:57:20
#89. Corporation tax is set nationally. The bank will make the decision in the interest of the shareholders. Scotland has no advantage over London and it would place an extra financial burden on senior staff who move there. Also if an independent Scotland lowered corporation tax, what would happen if England abolished Corporation tax altogether?
85

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 08:58:53
94

What if? What if a terrorist organisation planted a dirty H bomb in London?
What if?....................
86

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:00:53
Let's be clear about something. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the notion of a local income tax to raise revenues for local spending on public services. There are increased risks of tax avoidance with a homogeneous personal tax system (i.e. one that is based entirely on one variable - income - rather than spread out across multiple variables - like income and property/land ownership) but this isn't necessarily a show stopper. And progressive tax is a good thing, as it takes from each according to their ability and gives to each according to their need.

So let's not allow the SNP to be the champions of "local income tax", and end up arguing against that broad concept. That is what they want, and it is an elephant trap for their opposition.

What we need to focus on, as Iain Gray rightly has, is the SNP's specific proposal. It is not a locally set or locally collected tax. It is a national tax, which will divorce local authorities from any sort of fiscal responsibility and allow them to simply point elsewhere if criticised for their budgeting.

It is also a tax cut for the rich. To generate the same revenue as council tax currently generates, the SNP's LIT would need to be set at approximately 4.5%. This would still ensure that the poor, pensioners and low earners - the people the SNP claims to want to help - would pay a fraction of what they pay today. But it would properly redistribute that cost to the rich.

What the SNP propose instead is to introduce the LIT, and then give the rich a tax cut by cutting the rate from 4.5% to 3%. Let's be clear, this tax cut has little effect on the poor, pensioners and low earners, who would already be paying nothing or little because of the progressive nature of the tax. This cut is for the rich, cutting thousands of pounds off what their bills should be if the SNP were honest and introduced a tax which was revenue equivalent to the Council Tax.

But even worse, reading John Swinney's consultation it is most
87

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:01:25
likely a public service cut for everyone. Here's what he says about the shortfall in income (my comments in brackets):

"The amount raised through local income tax will not be identical to that raised through the council tax. [What a lovely piece of spin - you mean it will be less! There's no chance whatever of it being more. Why not say so?] There would need to be an adjustment to local authority funding after the change to take account of the difference and ensure that public services are properly funded. [Note what this doesn't say - this adjustment will not make up the difference - it will "take account of" the difference. Again, there's only one way this can go.] This Government has pledged to work with local authorities to provide a stable funding environment to ensure that the people of Scotland can get the vital front-line services they need. [A stable funding environment - not the same amount of funding. This is carefully worded, carefully spun stuff. Be in no doubt as to what it actually means - less money for local services, from a tax pot which will now be totally controlled by central government.]"

There are other, serious problems with the proposal too, aside from the removal of fiscal accountability that local authorities have had for centuries, and the service cuts that will inevitably flow from the tax cuts for the rich.

To be effective, the new national tax increase needs to be applied to the higher rate of income tax as well as the basic rate. The Scottish Parliament currently, under the mandate it was given by the people of Scotland, does not have the right to amend the higher rate of tax.

And moving away from property or land tax does open some seriously large opportunities for tax avoidance (legal, but hugely detrimental to our country) for those able to adjust their financial affairs to put their income and assets into a company structure rather than a personal one. Many of the richest people in Scotland do not pay income tax at al
88

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:01:56
[#97 cont'd]

all, and will now fall through the personal taxation gap altogether. And when people do that, the burden of funding public services falls even more heavily on the less rich.

In summary, I know this has been a long post, the SNP's LIT proposal is not the only LIT proposal in town; it is deeply flawed with respect to revenues generated, local accountability, tax cutting for the rich, tax avoidance increasing, and public service cutting.

That is why I don't support it, and neither should anyone else who has the interests of Scotland at heart.
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:02:01
94

"Scotland has no advantage over London"

Scotland generates more income than it spends.
London spends more income than it generates.
90

bluehead,

edinburgh 26/09/2008 09:03:09
there is a grey area around Mr Grey,it would be best to take anything he says with a pinch of salt,any thing said by members of this labour lot,must be treated with suspicion,for we have already seen the diabolical mess they would get us into,
then there will be the inevitable toadying to Brown,who just happens to be the worse prime minister of all time,nothing will improve while the labour lot are around
91

Buspass,

Edinburgh 26/09/2008 09:05:55
Tragic that this is all Labour in Scotland have to offer - a Wendy in troosers.
No doubt he has already sent his email: 'Ah telt them Gordon'.
92

Rev. S. Campbell,

26/09/2008 09:06:23
#94 "The bank will make the decision in the interest of the shareholders."

So hang on, you're changing your position? The bank will make the decision in the interests of shareholders, NOT on how much personal tax senior management will pay? So LIT would make absolutely no difference to the decision?

This is how much senior bankers care about a few thousand quid:

http://tinyurl.com/3wjl9l

"But it is in clubs like Movida, a basement off Oxford Street, where the sheer scale of wealth becomes apparent. Movida's VIP customers - mostly young hedge fund managers - can blow £3,500 on week nights, £10,000 at the weekend. One hedge fund manager spent £89,000 in a night, including two rare methuselahs of Cristal champagne at £24,000 each - one of which was given to rugby player Lawrence Dallaglio, who was sitting nearby."

"One night in Modiva, a champagne battle between managers from England, Russia and Germany broke out, the financiers spraying each other with jeroboams of Cristal at £4,500 a pop."
93

Michael,

26/09/2008 09:07:41
Shamelessly biased and embarassingly inept "reporting".
94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:09:18
#99 The income generated per capita in London far exceeds that generated in any other part of the UK. Even if you lump all oil revenues in Scotland's bit. London, because of the centuries of investment in it as a trading hub for the whole of the UK, generates huge amounts of income for the whole of the UK.

That's one of the main reasons why independence would be such folly. We have ploughed generations of effort into the key revenue-generating centres across the UK - effort from all over the UK - and independence would hand all of that shared investment over to the rest of the UK, despite all the Scottish time and effort that has gone into building it up.
95

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:12:35
96 New Duncan

"There are increased risks of tax avoidance with a homogeneous personal tax system (i.e. one that is based entirely on one variable - income - rather than spread out across multiple variables - like income and property/land ownership)"

And the evidence for this is what exactly?

"It is not a locally set or locally collected tax."

Perfectly true it is a locally ALLOCATED tax to be SPENT LOCALLY.

"will divorce local authorities from any sort of fiscal responsibility and allow them to simply point elsewhere if criticised for their budgeting."

So what? where is the disadvantage in this? taking away a fiscal power from local authorities with no regard for the welfare of those they tax?
bodies which are incompetant in handling finance which has been proven over and over again.
Dont see any problem is this New Duncan but then I told you this before.

"and the service cuts that will inevitably flow from the tax cuts for the rich."

You mean on top of the service cuts we exprience every year already without LIT in place?

we have already PROVED that LIT is not a tax cut for the rich. Your telling the same lie over and over again.

introduce the LIT, and then give the rich a tax cut by cutting the rate from 4.5% to 3%

The promised rate for LIT is 3% where does the 4.5 come from New Duncan?

Does this post have any other value than to sh*t stir?
96

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:14:44
#106 You're quite right, I don't think your post does have any value other than to sh*t stir.
97

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 09:17:16
#104 "London, because of the centuries of investment in it as a trading hub for the whole of the UK, generates huge amounts of income for the whole of the UK."


Except that, as we've just seen to such spectacular effect, it's generally imaginary income, which eventually collapses and lands us all with a gargantuan bill in REAL money.
98

Alan B,

26/09/2008 09:20:27
I am absolutely disgusted by Ian Gray. Labour just sink lower and lower.

There are arguments for LIT and against. Personally I am against it. But this is a time for Scotland to come together and fight for its economic survival. Trying to get Lloyds to base as many jobs as possible in Scotland is a good idea. Lloyds need to see all the Scottish parties backing the government in try to seek as many jobs as possibly for Scotland and as good a deal as possible. It will be very difficult and we could end up with little.

To do what Gray has done and allowed the whole affair to be distracted by arguing over something largely irrelevent to the HBOS affair is contemptuous and shows that his sound bites about caring for Scotland are just empty reteric as his persues the lowest common denominator of party politics. The man is a disgrace.
99

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:21:33
#108 Erm, nope. The bulk of income generated in London is not from the banking system, and is not imaginary. I suspect it suits your world view to pretend so, but it's not true as even a cursory look at London's economy would show you.
100

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:22:11
97

"The amount raised through local income tax will not be identical to that raised through the council tax. [What a lovely piece of spin - you mean it will be less! "

Yes of course it will its a TAX CUT for those who can least afford it to pay it.

"There would need to be an adjustment to local authority funding after the change to take account of the difference and ensure that public services are properly funded."

Why they are not properly funded now they never have been. Council tax is not the measure of what is required for local spending so why do you use it as a reference? it only makes you out to be a liar.

"less money for local services, from a tax pot which will now be totally controlled by central government.]"

Plus more efficiency and accountablity in spending therefore less money needed.

"To be effective, the new national tax increase needs to be applied to the higher rate of income tax as well as the basic rate. The Scottish Parliament currently, under the mandate it was given by the people of Scotland, does not have the right to amend the higher rate of tax."

There is nothing in the Scotland act preventing them from doing so is there?

"And moving away from property or land tax does open some seriously large opportunities for tax avoidance (legal, but hugely detrimental to our country"

Care to name one? care to provide a single shred of evidence?

Many of the richest people in Scotland do not pay income tax at al

Name one. Dont forget the evidence.
101

Queen D,

Glasgow 26/09/2008 09:22:36
My there are some pompous prats on here that pontificate loud and long, makes me wonder if Guido is right, he says Labour Party activists have been encouraged to hit the blogsites in an effort to curb stories they don't like.
102

Alan B,

26/09/2008 09:24:13
#Duncan

"London, because of the centuries of investment in it as a trading hub for the whole of the UK, generates huge amounts of income for the whole of the UK."

You have summed up the nub of Scotlands problem. The UK has built up London to the detriment of the rest of the UK. Scotland, Northern England, Wales have all suffered as a result. The further from London the less you benefit from the uk london first economy policy that many governments have pursued.

It is for that reason Scotland needs independence or at the least substantially more devolution starting with fiscal autonomy.
103

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:25:39
110

Most of the money generated in London is not local money Duncie poos its global money and never even touches local needs. London doesnt generate enough cash to look after itself it needs cash injection from the rest of the UK.
104

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:25:56
#111 If I may quote:

---
"There would need to be an adjustment to local authority funding after the change to take account of the difference and ensure that public services are properly funded."

Why they are not properly funded now they never have been. Council tax is not the measure of what is required for local spending so why do you use it as a reference? it only makes you out to be a liar.
---

I'm afraid you have just shown yourself up somewhat. The quote which you claim shows the person up as a liar is from John Swinney.
105

John S,

26/09/2008 09:26:23
There is no truth to these rumours that:
Dr Gordon Brown is the ventriloquist and Iain Gray is his dummy.
Dr Gordon Brown is the puppeteer and Iain Gray is his marionette.
106

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:30:36
110

Actually the money passing through London isnt even generated there at all its a financial hub which transfers money it doesnt "generate" it.
You should know all about how a Hub works Duncie poo.
107

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:33:29
116

So what? the context you are using it in is the lie.
Its your claims which are using the council tax as the reference and its the reference which makes it a lie.
Council tax doesnt generate the required amount needed for local spending hence the fact there are rebates and benefits to be paid back.
108

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:36:38
#115 Londoners pay £20 billion more in taxes (corporate and personal) than they receive in public spending. Tourism alone generates £9 billion a year in London. London's GDP is £180 billion - more than Austria,
Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg or Sweden. London's GDP per capita is exceeded only by that of the USA and Luxembourg.

Source: Mayor of London's office.
109

Marga,

Fife 26/09/2008 09:37:13
Interesting (long) post, Duncan in Edinburgh, but I think you should have made clear one thing (quote from the Scottish Government page in July 2008):

- What happens next? Over the coming months Ministers will consider all of the responses to the consultation carefully, and will come forward with our proposals for Scotland's Parliament to decide.

So the present tax proposal is just that, a proposal, out for consultation, and not the final version. I think all those out there clamouring about its unfairness would be better employed making representations directly to the government than crying wolf on these boards.
110

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:40:06
121

If that were true then why arent Londoners paying far less taxation than the rest of us? why is it so expensive to live there? how come a city can "generate" so much and give so little back to the people "generating" it?
If I were a Londoner I would be up in arms over this situation.
111

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:41:12
122

That would put new Duncan out of a job.
112

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:42:55
121

According to your new lies Duncie Londoners are paying excessively larger taxation than the rest of the country put together why do they tolerate that?
113

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:43:32
#122 Yes, I was rather expecting somebody to say that (it's usually Miss H). Forgive me but the responses from Salmond when a number of these points have been put to him do not give the impression that they are prepared to listen to such input. They are committed to the 3% rate (aka massive tax cut) which is at the heart of the flaws in the proposal, and they have consistently refused to shift to local rate setting, talking instead about moving to this at an unspecified future time. Frankly if it is possible to do it then, it would be possible to do it now. But their whole house of LIT cards would fall down if local rate setting was introduced in the first year, as well they know.

Like most "consultations" - and the previous government was as guilty as this one is - this is not really up for discussion.
114

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:46:19
#125 I appreciate that it is frustrating for you, but calling me a liar just because the facts don't suit you is just stupid. Take a deep breath, and consider the possibility that not everything you have been told about the oppression of Scots and the need for independence is true.
115

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:49:59
126

Yep and its a pittance compared to the figures oor Duncie has produced.
And lets not forget that Old Duncie poo used to argue that businesses and rich individuals would leave Scotland under Independence because of its higher taxation and cost of living but not its seems London.
A contradiction of that arguement at least so which one is the lie?
116

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:51:36
128

Blah blah blah you dont post facts Duncie Facts are proven statements not opinions based on bias or sh*t stirring motivations.
Any other handworking IT something in Edinburgh would understand that.
117

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:53:08
#129 see #128. I have never argued any such thing. Is this part of your paranoia that I post under multiple user names? Let's put this to bed right now: I have not, and do not.
118

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:53:49
130

Isnt the London weighting allowance paid from UK taxation? doesnt it come from central government through yer pay packet?

119

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:54:45
132

Oh yes you have you wee fibbing IT something in Edinburgh several times.
120

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 09:57:06
132

Or more accurately the same argument regurgetated over and over and over again in your own indomitable style.
121

AJ Fife,

26/09/2008 09:58:51
Mr Salmond's uncanny knack of calling things right, should make the likes of Dunc, realise that Scotland's future has never been in safer hands.

Even Gray can't hide his admiration for his Leader. You can see the respect oozing out of every pore of the Labour leader. How he hangs on every word from Mr Salmond, is a welcome change from the sour little fish wife Alexander!
122

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 09:59:16
#133 London weighting is paid by employers, not the government.
123

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 10:03:12
#138 And what if that employer is the state?
124

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:03:18
#137 What do you think of the SNP's LIT plans AJ? Do you think they are perfect, or need to be improved? Seriously, don't give us your usual tongue-in-cheek Salmond sycophancy - what's your view on LIT specifically?
125

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:03:50
superparcel

When is your beloved leader going to re-open my swimming pool, newt?
126

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:07:05
#139 Oh my god you're right - state employees must be employed by... the state! Which means that the government pays their wages! Crivvens! What should we do about this terrible state of affairs? I assume Salmond has a plan to remove these spongers from the payroll forthwith? Especially in London, which only exists to sap the lifeblood out of the hard working Scot...

For pity's sake, can ye no do better than that?
127

AJ Fife,

26/09/2008 10:07:30
#140,

If it's good enough for Mr Salmond, it's good enough for me!
128

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:07:59
I want more income tax and much less local accountability.

I also want a one-party centralised State.

129

Calum10,

26/09/2008 10:08:02
BREAKING NEWS: A deal that has been struck between Iain Gray and Andy Kerr has been uncovered at Holyrood.

Andy Kerr is in charge of overall political strategy whilst Iain Gray will be just the mouthpiece on policy at Holyrood. In return Ian Gray gets the continued support of the West of Scotland Labour mafia.

In effect Iain Gray has become a hostage of Lanarkshire Labour. Whilst Andy Kerr is free do the rounds of the Scottish media.
130

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:08:50
AJ Fife is with me!

It's time!
131

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 10:14:42
#142 Calm yourself down, love. I merely pointed out that your glib response was somewhat lacking when it came to state employees, and goodness knows there are plenty of those in London.

It's interesting, incidentally, that nobody even seems to have considered the possibility that LIT could be increased after being introduced, like pretty much every other form of municipal funding ever conceived, and that the initial rate might just be a sweetener.
132

boudica,

Glasgow 26/09/2008 10:14:59
Salmond says the LIT has the consensus of the Scottish People...He and his gang of bushwhackers have refused to listen to the People of Scotland on this and the fact that they dont want Independance and also ignored the support for Nuclear Energy ..even various leaders of the Business world and Economists are being ignored on these points .He just ignores any who dont agree with him...Single men and Women are the ones who pay the most tax and he thinks it is right to hit them with more whilst the Wealthy wont need to pay this tax ..He is a Hypocrit of the first Order..
133

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:15:51
#suchaparcelofrogues

You are correct london weighting does come from the government.

#Duncan in Edinburgh

Saying it comes from the employer is abit disengenious. London weighting does come from the employer but the employer is the government eg teachers etc.

Some private sector companies may pay a London weighting but that is really an internal issue and most would not call it a London weighting. Private companies tend not the have regimented pay policies and are generally pretty negotatiable. Depending on what you can offer. You will get paid more in Lonond but that is generally as it is harder to attract good staff and there is much more competition for the employees. Rather than a weighting system for the purpose of covering higher costs.
134

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:22:32
#149 What is "a bit disingenuous" is saying "you will get paid more in London" and then arguing that London weighting is provided by the government!

Is your argument seriously that the phrase "London weighting" is used by government employers and private employers, though they pay more in London, don't call it "London weighting"?

Do you think this is any sort of an argument at all?

Dear me.
135

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:24:42
"Londoners pay £20 billion more in taxes (corporate and personal) than they receive in public spending"

While the London economy is robust this statement should make clear a few things.

The government employees many people. Most are based in Lodon all the government departments and whitehall. Related institutions like the BBC and BOE. They are paid for by all the uk. So it is unfair to claim that is londoners paying taxes. Liverpool, Manchester, Bimingham and Newcastle etc pay the taxes for these public sector jobs and instutions. So to attibute londoner as paying taxes which are public sector jobs paid for by the whole of the uk is misleading.

Move the BBC, BOE, relocate all government and all associated depts to say Leeds and are Leeds people who pay the taxes of these state related jobs subsidising the rest of the population by paying more taxes.

Continuing on that theme. Governments has had policies to encourage London as the head quarters of companies. Is it really fair for BP to be counted as Londoners paying taxes rather than a big uk company paying taxes.

If Scotland got as good a deal as London within the UK many more people would be happy with the union.
136

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:28:04
#Duncan in Edinburgh

Duncan you clearly said in post 138 "London weighting is paid by employers, not the government".

That is simply not true. As such it is disingenuous. Or if you want to be frank a lie. Why? Because for all public sector related employees (or quangos) the government is effectively the employer.

That is surely not that difficult to understand.
137

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:30:39
#152 AlanB
Aberdonians pay more in taxes than they receive back in public spending. I am unsure what you are blethering about. I hope your swimming pool and ice-rink is still open, because mine's isn't.


138

Embra Don,

26/09/2008 10:30:51
#2 Royster

Would a bank put its headquarters in an Independent Scotland where the Corporation tax was less than in London?

I dare say that the bonuses that the decision makers pay themselves would compensate for the difference between CT and LIT for very high earners.
139

Shaken,

26/09/2008 10:34:34
If you cmpare the average wage of Chief Exec in London compared with Scotland you'll see why Scotland will still be a cheaper option for Multi nationals to locate an HQ here.

Gateway to Europe - vive la SNP..
140

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:36:34
#152 You are arguing my point for me. We (the UK) have invested in London as a highly profitable centre generating wealth for the whole of the UK. The public sector isn't what generates this wealth! It is the large private, often multinational, companies which we have attracted to London which do this.

London quite rightly funds the rest of the country because the rest of the country has invested in London as our national trading centre.
141

bill-alba,

fife 26/09/2008 10:37:49
worked in a bank for 25 years in london...didnt get london weighting..got an appropriate wage for the cost of living..
142

Tynietiger,

26/09/2008 10:38:03
Dear o dear, I saw the Labour candidate for Glenrothes on STV's Politics Now last night. He was dreadful and made Iain Gray look charismatic and will make voters lose the will to live. He also had not a clue on how Labour are going to replace / reform the hated Council Tax.
143

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:38:14
#156 Shaken

London is described as the capital of the World. Scotland is a small nation on the north-western tip of Europe, and you are in favour of lower wages for people living in Scotland.
144

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:38:42
#153 Sorry, it was absolutely no lie! London weighting is paid by both private and public employers. The GLA London Weighting Advisory Panel advises both private and public companies on London weighting. You are determined to suggest that this weighting is a government subsidy for government workers, and it is simply not the case.
145

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:39:29
#The Tin Man

I was refering the the statement that Duncan was making regarding Londoners subsidising the rest of the uk. While i do believe there is some truth in that as the London economy is very robust. Counting uk companies that have headquarters in London is misleading. Using your example of Aberdeen. Aberdeen would pay alot more in tax if BP was based their. Also basing the public sector government in London paid for by the whole uk and counting their taxes and all the associated taxes as londoners subsidising the rest of the uk is misleading.

Do not really understand what point you are making regarding Aberdeen. Everyone knows the councils over a period of time has made a mess of things.
146

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:41:13
Further to #161, if you have any experience of a large company with branches in London and branches elsewhere, they almost universally apply a London weighting to the salaries for those working in their London branches.

Any major bank, management consultancy, service company, retail company, etc. etc. pays a London weighting to London staff.
147

57vintage,

Keith 26/09/2008 10:41:39
"Of course, the boss of Lloyds TSB only has one vote so the SNP doesn't care"

But so does Brian Souter, homophobe (whaur's yer fecht wi bigotry noo, Salmondo??) but he'll take his salary in dividends and shares so that he avoids the Local Income Tax (bafflingly set at national level - how odd) and won't have to pay Cooncil Tax on his palatial Perthshire pile.

That £750k election donation will have to be earned somehow, Nattoes.

PS I am non-partisan, having been disenfranchised through none of the parties offering me anything for which I could morally vote. And I may or may not be a unionist - I may favour independence but I think the constitution is low priority compared with solving welfare and povert issues. Just to prevent the babyish insults, you understand.
148

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:42:57
#161 Duncan in Edinburgh

"London weighting is paid by both private and public employers"

Is a true statement. But what you said in #138 was "London weighting is paid by employers, not the government."

That is clearly rubbish as the government is the effective employer (or atleast paying the wages) of all public sector workers.

(My clarification regarding private sector workers. Was than many do not get a specific london weighting, but is more determined by the market which is abit different.)
149

Resolutions,

26/09/2008 10:43:20
Duncan - suggest you get on with your paid employment, instead of wasting your employers time.

As far as I am aware the local income tax is under consultation and not in Parliament as yet. Perhaps the term consultation is alien to many on these boards - of you want a say go to the correct place. Of you do not contribute, you cannot claim that it is ignored.Stop claiming you speak for the majority, when you cannot prove it.

As for those claiming we do not want indepedence - again that will come with a referendum and the 'settled will' should prove your claims.

As for that 'performance' in Holyrood by Gray- pathetic! On ALL counts. As for article - ditto.
150

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:43:59
#162 AlanB

The people of Scotland subsidise Romania through out taxes. To say the we subsidise London is a bit far-fetched. I thought that London is a World economic powerhouse, but I may be misled.
151

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:45:56
#163 Duncan in Edinburgh

Some have a london weighting. The London companies I have worked for did not have a London weighting. I am not disputing some do. The ones with more rigid salary scales do.

I was simply pointing out saying the government do not pay a london weighting is untrue for public sector workers.

152

The Tin Man,

26/09/2008 10:46:24
#166 Resolutions

The LIT consultation period is over, and our government have not published the results of the consultation.
153

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:46:58
#166 I am my employer, and what I do with my time is none of your damn business. I will not be told by you or anyone else to curtail my free speech.
154

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:48:57
#The Tin Man

I never said we subsidise London.

I just said when talking about how much London subsidises the rest of the uk it is abit misleading to say that the taxes paid by uk wide companies is londoners paying taxes. Or public sector employees and the other associated jobs like BBC or Bank of England is londoners paying taxes when the public sector is paid for by the whole uk.
155

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:50:46
#168 You said that London weighting is paid by the government. I said it was paid by employers. Which one of us was more correct in this?

I was responding to Suchaparcel who said

"Isnt the London weighting allowance paid from UK taxation? doesnt it come from central government through yer pay packet?"

The simple answer to this is no. London weighting is paid by employers. Where the employer is the government, then the government pays, but in the majority of cases where the employer is not the government, London weighting is not paid for by any tax money whatsoever.

The point is that Suchaparcel was trying to imply that higher salaries in London are footed by the taxpayer. This is not true.
156

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:55:16
#Duncan in Edinburgh

"You said that London weighting is paid by the government. Which one of us was more correct in this?"

I did not say that at all. I suggest you learn to read. So given that is not something I said. So I am correct if you want to play these silly games.

It was a different poster that said that. #133 suchaparcelofrogues if you can scroll back and check.

I said the government do pay london weighting as they are effectively the employer of public sector workers. Not that difficult to understand.
157

Embra Don,

26/09/2008 10:56:16
#157 Duncan in Edinburgh

What a cosy view of the state of the UK.
Many others, north of Watford and west of Reading, rather see London as a black hole, sucking in everything to an overpopulated, over-subsidised, over-centralised off-centre centre.
158

The Answer,

Glasgow 26/09/2008 10:56:16
If Westminister raises Tax Allowences by a rate higher than inflation, LIT will be dead in the water!
159

Resolutions,

26/09/2008 10:57:50
#170
That employment obviously includes stifling the free speech of others.

Than you - as I suspected a plant.
160

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 10:58:25
#174 I can read, sunshine. Specifically, your posting #149. Do you remember typing that?

"#suchaparcelofrogues

You are correct london weighting does come from the government."

?
161

Alan B,

26/09/2008 10:58:44
#Duncan in Edinburgh


Let me break it down for you.

Public sector london weighting is paid for by the government.

Private sector employees who get london weighting is paid for by the private company.

So the statement that government do not pay london weighting is untrue. They do for public sector workers as you have subsequently acknowledged in a later post.
162

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:00:16
#179 Duncan in Edinburgh

My other posts and the ones addressed to you have clearly specified that the government pay the london weighting for public sector employees.
163

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:02:08
#177 And how do you reach that conclusion my paranoid friend?
164

AJ Fife,

26/09/2008 11:02:55
#166,

Be fair to Dunc, he's self employed and work is obviously a bit quiet at the moment. Dunc's last job was injecting a load of fuser oil into a Lexmark over two weeks ago. Hence, he's got aw day to post on the Scotsman website.........
165

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:05:52
#179

If you go back and read the whole of the post and not just take one line of the post in #149 you will see i was making a distinction between both public and private sector.

It is grossly immature to take one sentence and not put it in context of the whole post i made in #149.
166

noswod,

Honestus 26/09/2008 11:09:30
Local income tax equals the poll tax in political terms. Act of political madness by Slamond and the ultimate stealth tax on the middle and upper classes wait for the backlash. Lower Corporation tax rates under a NATs Govt you must be joking someone or something has to pay for the £1,615 extra per year local Govt spending over the Southern British rate and all those other freebies persciption charges, student fees, old age care, higher NHS spend etc, etc. No chance, we should keep our mouths shut and heads down and keep coining it in from the Southern British the alternative amplyfied by the loss of oor broke Bank and Nuke Energy company is 70 years worth of lower than average economic growth as the Republic of Ireland suffered post independence
167

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:10:03
#184 I can accept that you are now desperately backtracking but I took nothing out of context. You told #133, with no qualification whatsoever, that he was correct. I'm glad you now accept you were wrong on that. Let's move on.
168

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:10:43
#183 Ye cheeky wee scamp - away and do your homework.
169

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:11:18
#noswod

If there is no chance of lower corporation taxes why did we just see a lowering of business rates?
170

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:14:07
#186 Duncan in Edinburgh

You are getting more pathetic by the day. You clearly stated that that the government does not pay london weighting. It is there in black and white above in this thread.

That is clearly wrong. As the government do pay it. They pay it for public sector employees.



171

Embra Don,

26/09/2008 11:14:38
#164 57vintage

ALL of the parties are obliged to accept donations from some pretty unsavoury individuals - its part of the corrupt system that needs to be changed. I despise Soutar's homophobia but, that aside he compares pretty favourably with the funders of the Westminster parties. Odd that he doesn't have a knighthood or a peerage for his services to public transport. ;-)

I quite agree with, and share your aims, re poverty and welfare but have come to realise that these issues can never be improved while decision making has to pander to "Middle England" and the Daily Mail.
172

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:17:52
#186 Duncan

You are a liar.

My original post in full

"#suchaparcelofrogues

You are correct london weighting does come from the government.

#Duncan in Edinburgh

Saying it comes from the employer is abit disengenious. London weighting does come from the employer but the employer is the government eg teachers etc.

Some private sector companies may pay a London weighting but that is really an internal issue and most would not call it a London weighting. Private companies tend not the have regimented pay policies and are generally pretty negotatiable. Depending on what you can offer. You will get paid more in Lonond but that is generally as it is harder to attract good staff and there is much more competition for the employees. Rather than a weighting system for the purpose of covering higher costs."

That clearly makes a distinguintion between public sector and private sector.

So please do not lie.

It was you who simply posted that the government do not pay London weighting. That simply is not true as they do. Obviously they do not pay it for the private sector jobs but the public sector ones.

Grow up.
173

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:18:44
#189 I said it was paid by employers. If you genuinely took that to mean "but not public sector employers" then I apologise for misleading you, but I would suggest you address the plank in your own eye before pointing out the speck in mine.
174

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 11:19:20
#172 "The point is that Suchaparcel was trying to imply that higher salaries in London are footed by the taxpayer. This is not true."

It is true, though. It's just not true in ALL cases. A great many higher salaries in London are subsidised by the taxpayer in the form of London weighting. There are also many which aren't, but if you take the average of (something) + (nothing), what you end up with is a net overall subsidy of Londoners by the taxpayer. So stop wriggling and hairsplitting over semantics. The core point is true - overall, taxpayers subsidies London workers with weighting.
175

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:20:05
#191 Ah, I was clearly wrong to proffer an olive branch - you are as juvenile and name-calling as others have been. I won't bother treating you with any respect in future.
176

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:25:58
#192 Duncan in Edinburgh

"I said it was paid by employers. If you genuinely took that to mean "but not public sector employers" then I apologise for misleading you"

Duncan you told a poster the government do not pay London weighting.

In my initial post i said that the government do for public sector workers and gave a teacher as an example.

It was a clarification and not meant to be an argument. My original post was not argumentative. But was just trying to make clear something that i felt was misleading.

Rather than just accept the clarification which lets face it we both know is true, you decided to pick a fight which for some reason i haven taken the bate.
177

Embra Don,

26/09/2008 11:30:47
#185 noswod, Honestus

You may wish to continue (believe we are) being subsidised. The circumstances in Ireland were rather different. Few natural rescources, a surly neighbour and a state dominated by the Church for three.

If things were that dark for them, you would think that there would have been a clamour to re-join the dominion - don't remember that.
The truth is that they were no worse than they had been before independence. When they joined the EU and therefore were able to level the playing field, they took off.
I suspect that if, in The Irish Republic,you suggested a referendum on applying to join the UK, you would be deemed insane.
178

Alan B,

26/09/2008 11:31:26
#Duncan in Edinburgh

An Olive branch is not

"You told #133, with no qualification whatsoever, that he was correct."

That is simply not true. Why should i have to put up with someone lying to me on a public forum. That is why I posted the whole post in full.

An olive branch is not posting a quote from me that removes all the clarifications to completely misrepresent what I clearly said. It is just grossly immature.

"I'm glad you now accept you were wrong on that. Let's move on"

You wonder why someone gets irritated by you when you come out with that statement.



179

brownlie,

26/09/2008 11:34:14
One thing is perfectly clear. If Labour/Lib Dems had continued to be the Scottish Government there would be no discussion on this site of LIT or any alternative.

The status quo of council tax increasing year by year would have continued.

There is nothing from Labour to suggest that they would change things - only that they oppose LIT.

On top of that, a housing evaluation exercise is due and, even with the slump in house price, that valuation will be considerably higher than the previous one. The valuation exercise in Wales is proof of that.

So, a double whammy, CT would continue to climb and the valuation would mean that more individuals would be forced into higher tax-bands.

Is this really what those who oppose LIT want?
180

AJ Fife,

26/09/2008 11:35:08
With Dunc's exceedingly limp wrists, accepting an olive branch would be folly indeed!
181

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:38:53
#198 But it *is* true that you told #133, with no qualification whatsoever, that he was correct. The rest of #149 was directed at me. You posted a single line response to #133 saying that he was correct. And then you denied it.

I didn't remove any clarifications from my post because that was all you said to him. You told him he was correct, full stop.

I know why you get irritated by me; you disagree with me. But I do love the idea that I picked a fight, while all you did was respond. The blame is all mine, it would seem.

I'll let you have the last word on this if you like. The point has been proven.
182

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:41:31
#199 Excellent straw man. Now what about this specific LIT proposal from the SNP - you know, the one that is a national rise in income tax, removal of accountability from local authorities, and a tax cut for the rich to bribe them to accept it. What is your view of that?
183

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 11:43:08
Couple of points the line of Iain Gray's argument is just so wrong and very silly, posters have already highlighted that in their experience when a company decides to setup it's HQ, what the level of personal is taxation doesn't really register.

It was a silly argument he looked petty and stupid and I am pretty sure I heard Andy Gray spoon feed Gray a line or two.

The Scotsman coverage of FMQ is also very silly they have a really bitter and obnoxious opinion of FMQ's yesterday.

Alex Salmond was trying to keep a consensus in the parliament you could see he was getting frustrated and fed up with Gray as Iain Gray was peeing on his own lawn.

Gray was poor, Andy Kerr walked into a bear trap he isn't clever at all poor lad he should go back to Glasgow Council.
184

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 11:51:04
Duncan do Councils deliver local services YES.

Are they accountable at the ballot box YES.

CT is about roughly 20% of Council revenue the rest being from the SG.

So Duncan what services are paid for from the 20%?

Where on the ballot paper does it list those services with the heading CT provided / SG grant provided.

Of course not because the councils are responsible for the service delivery of the total package not 80% or 20% it doesn't matter.

They are financially, legally and democratically responsible for the 100% total package.

So the line that it undermines local accoutability does not stack up to scrutiny.
185

brownlie,

26/09/2008 11:54:21
202 Duncan

Please explain your reference to "straw man" which sounds insulting and makes no contribution to this debate?

Then go on to explain what Labour would have done if the SNP were not in power?

Then go on to explain what Labour's alternative, if any, would be?

Do you mean like the £30,000 bribe to the UK Labour Government paid by non-doms to avoid paying enormous sums of money in tax?

Do they have a similar scheme in mind for the less well-off pensioners?
186

Brian Hill,

26/09/2008 11:54:58
Linking HBOS with LIT is quite obviously a major Labour strategy. Everyone is at it, including poor old Lindsay Roy last night on the Politics Show.

Apart from occasionally looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights Lindsay ably demonstrated his complete lack of understanding of economics.

SNP candidate Peter Grant on the other hand sounded coherent all the way through the interview.

As has been said earlier, this Labour ploy of trying to make the SNP look bad will in fact hamper Holyrood's efforts to keep jobs and financial power in Scotland.

This may look good short term but it is destined to backfire. Not a good start for Mr Gray's tenure.

BTW good to see Jim Sillars on TV again.

187

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 11:57:15
#204 I disagree. The 20% or thereabouts of locally set, locally collected taxation allows local authorities to demonstrate good governance and be fiscally, not just democratically, accountable. Every party, including the SNP, has pointed in the past to the local tax levels set by local authorities under their party's control to show how effective their fiscal responsibility has been.

If the local population believe that something is so important that they are prepared to pay additional local taxes to enable it to happen, they can elect a council with that mandate. Under completely centralised grant funding, which is what the SNP's proposal brings in, local people have no capacity to make such decisions.

It is a fundamental undermining of local democracy.
188

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:03:52
London weighting allowance is only paid to public sector workers not private. Whatever extra cash private sector workers get for working in London it isnt London weighting allowance because London weighting allowance is paid from national taxation revenue i.e the Government.
Duncie poo yer a liar again.
189

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:04:57
#205 Look up "straw man". It means setting out what you want your opponent's position to appear to be, and then demolishing it. It's not an insult.

You set out the idea that Labour would not have debated local authority funding in this parliament, which neither you nor anyone else can possibly know, and then criticised them for it. It's a debating technique, and I pulled you up on it.

The SNP are in power. Neither I nor you can speculate with any certainty whatsoever what would have happened had the thirty-odd thousand votes difference between the SNP and Labour gone the other way. But given that there was no certainty of a Lib Dem coalition, reform of local taxation could well have been part of a Labour minority government's plans.
190

Embra Don,

26/09/2008 12:05:48
#199 brownlie
I suspect that in what is left of their souls the labour people agree that LIT is a better and fairer system.
However they could not possibly be seen to support it in Scotland and thus emphasise differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Their supporters in England would probably prefer it too, if it was on offer, but the Mail, Evening Standard, The Torygraph, the Conservative Party and the Murdoch Organisation wouldn't approve - so they can't risk it.
191

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:07:31
#208 More sh*t stirring? We've done this one to death. You were wrong. Go away.
192

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:09:02
207

There is no local democracy. Since when can anybody living in a local tax area determine what how much and when local spending is used? It is determined by a local authority with absolute power over what to spend their income on.
And when you get a mixed council you get disagreements on what it should be spent on depending on party political persuasion.
I cant see any disadvantage in getting rid of mostly incompetant inexperianced bodies with absolute control over local taxation.
None at all and you cant name one real honest one.
193

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:10:04
#210 The issue, as I tried to set out in #96-98, is not whether local income tax is a better and fairer system, but whether the SNP's specific proposals, for a nationally set and nationally collected tax, at a rate far below current revenues, is a better or fairer system.
194

Arfur,

26/09/2008 12:10:38
Hamish Macdonell - hint - As a so called journalist why don't you do this little thing called actually reporting what happens. Do you not realise that some of us watch FMQ and could see that Grey was bent over spanked by Salmond?
195

The Strategist,

26/09/2008 12:11:09
As I understand it the biggest objection came from the CBI.. The CBI's main members in Scotland are financial services companies. So no credibility then.
196

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:11:09
211

More lies. Old Duncie poo was more subtle than this.
A complete w*nker of course but still head and shoulders above you.
197

vimto,

26/09/2008 12:11:17
Well done Alex,your policies are distroying scotland,you thought thatcher was bad,you aint seen nothing yet,salmond and his so called "government" are putting scotland and it's people on a slippery slope,scotland is the only country in the UK heading for a "winter of discontent".
198

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:12:17
214

Hamish is far too busy trolling the blogs to bother checking any sources to his tripe he headlines.
199

Embra Don,

26/09/2008 12:12:45
Duncan and AlanB
Your otherwise entertaining and enlightening debate is in danger of being reduced to a personal playground squabble by argument over who said what.
Might I respectfully suggest that you set that to one side? We can all look back and form our own judgements on the rights and wrongs of the semantics.
200

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:13:51
#212 How does your assessment of local authorities differ from national government then? Precisely the same argument could be made for that. If voters are powerless to change the spending of local authorities, we are far more powerless to change the spending priorities of national governments.

I think that's a cop out. If you believed it you wouldn't bother voting in any elections.
201

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:14:01
213

So when you say fairer what is it relative to? council tax poll tax or the old rates system? how about LVT?
202

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:15:52
220

Aye but instead of only one incompetant bunch of thieves robbing you of taxes you get two by adding local authorities.
203

brownlie,

26/09/2008 12:16:47
209 Duncan

I know what "straw man" means but was not sure that you could possibly think it was relevant to this debate.

There was no word of changing the council tax position in the Labour manifesto and I was going to take their word for it until I remembered "Education, Education, Education" and "Tough on crime, Tough on the causes of crime" - two of their more successful manifesto promises.

You appear to be a bit uncertain regarding their plans but your last sentence seems to indicate that you consider the only way they would reform the council tax was if they found it necessary to bring a Lib/Dem coalition on board?
204

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:21:04
#222 Right, so part of your support for the Scottish government's LIT proposals is that one incompetent bunch of thieves is doing the job of another incompetent bunch of thieves. Most persuasive.

Local fiscal accountability is a really important thing. It should not be thrown away alongside reform of local government funding.
205

Darien,

Panama 26/09/2008 12:23:10
I see Duncan's been let out again and on a roll.

Remember, he who talks a lot, says very little.

FMQ: Salmond 2 Gray 0 - yawn

On Newsnicht last nicht, the Glenrothes NewLab candidate sounded like a grumpy teacher, and so dour, so dour. Never a smile, awfie mournful (almost undertaker-like). A typical Scots 'we cannae dae it oorselves' BritNat (aka unionist) type. Jist like a' the faces on the NewLab benches at Holyrood. He'll surely dae well on the doorsteps in Glenrothes (not).
206

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:24:02
#223 If you knew what a straw man was why did you suggest it sounded insulting? Makes no sense.

According to the SNP, manifestos set out what a party would do in a majority government. The SNP's multiple variations from their manifesto promises have been blamed on their minority status in the parliament.

I'm sure you are as critical of the SNP's flexible manifesto as you are of Labour's?
207

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 12:26:16
223 Brownlie#

Don't forget 'no more boom and bust' but interesting to see Brown try and hoodwink everyone as a world statesman heading across the Atlantic to single- handedly solving the international credit crises.

We all know it was Brown who encouraged the huge growth of credit in the country in the first place.

Brown has gone to the US to be beg them to bail out the UK and stabilise the markets..the man is a joke.
208

vimto,

26/09/2008 12:31:12
227. You may need more than strength,if scotlands "winter of discontent" comes about!
209

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:34:44
224

I was referring to all Governments not specifically to the Scottish government of course.
For incompetant useless politicians they are better than the rest but when you put politicians and finance together then you aint going to get a bed or roses the best you will get is less thorns.
210

Arfur,

26/09/2008 12:36:43
Forgot to comment on the story -

Load of F'ing nonsence.

Tomorrows headline from Hamish 'Labour Lackey' Macdonell - Salmond's local income tax'will cause Armageddon!...............says independant expert xxxx xxxx (whos somehow works Labour)
211

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:38:29
224

"Local fiscal accountability is a really important thing"

Well we can agree on that at least yet I have seen no evidence from any council anywhere in the country even SNP run councils which suggest local accountablity.
All I have ever heard from Local councils is we need more funding and we are being squeezed by central government give us more money and give us more money and give us more money and give us more money........................etc etc.
212

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 12:39:52
#209 "But given that there was no certainty of a Lib Dem coalition, reform of local taxation could well have been part of a Labour minority government's plans."

Then I'm sure you can point us to the passage in their 2007 manifesto when they said as much. Should I start holding my breath?
213

brownlie,

26/09/2008 12:41:29
226 Duncan

In that context I did not think you meant it to be complimentary nor did I consider that it was relevant to this debate!

There are things that the SNP do that I do not approve of and have said so in the past on this site.

I am not one of those people who thinks any political party is perfect or blind to any short-comings.

For example, I do not class the carnage caused by the Iraqi invasion as a minor mistake by the Labour UK Government.

You avoided the question about the non-doms and you have not come forward with your version of an alternative to the council tax. Did it ever occur to you that this is indicative of the constant negativity that is costing your Labour party votes?
214

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:42:05
226

According to the SNP, manifestos set out what a party would do in a majority government. The SNP's multiple variations from their manifesto promises have been blamed on their minority status in the parliament.

Seems a valid point to me whats wrong with it?
All of the political parties put out their manifesto promises based on winning full power in which to implement them not much point doing otherwise.
Lets face none of the other parties are able to keep any of their manifesto promises because they have no power at all so are these also regarded as broken promises? they are by your logic or stupidity.
215

brownlie,

26/09/2008 12:43:01
229 Vimto

Who let you out of the bottle?
216

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:44:34
New Duncie poo you seem to ask a hell of a lot of questions for somebody who cannae answer any.
217

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:44:44
#233 My point, as I would have thought an intelligent person would have grasped, is that just as trams and EARL were not in the SNP's manifesto - they got rid of EARL but had to bow to the parliamentary majority on trams - things not in the Labour manifesto could easily have been forced on them by, for example, the combined forces of an SNP in opposition, and the Lib Dems.

The parliamentary make-up, notwithstanding which of the two biggest parties ended up with that all important extra seat, is weighted towards local government reform. Any minority administration would probably have been forced to address it.
218

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 12:45:30
#206 "Linking HBOS with LIT is quite obviously a major Labour strategy. Everyone is at it, including poor old Lindsay Roy last night on the Politics Show."

Hang on, what? There was no episode of TPS on last night, and neither The Daily Politics nor Newsnight Scotland featured any of the Glenrothes candidates. What did I miss?
219

Tormod,

Dalgety Bay 26/09/2008 12:46:17
Duncan @ 207 how are councils judged to be fiscally responsible? Who and how is that decided?

So we the public decide on their handling of 20% of there budget? and not the rest?

The answer is of course how they control there total budget and how do I decide that was good or bad by the ballot box and back to my original critique that councils are jugded by there service delivery of the total package not just the 20%.

So Duncan what is the critera of fiscally responsibilty and how are they judged by the public

again this line of argument doesn't stack up to scrutiny.

As for increasing local taxation, with LIT it's still possible for example:-

car parking charges
access to lesiure facilities
landscaping charges

You could stand on a platform that you will increase charges for council services to pay for that mandate.
220

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:46:32
224

My support for LIT is based on the fact that its a tax cut for me. Puts me in the majority.
221

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 12:47:44
#238 "things not in the Labour manifesto could easily have been forced on them"

That's hardly the same as "part of their plans", which was your original phrase. Planning to do something is very different to not being able to stop someone ELSE doing something.
222

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:47:59
240

New Duncan decided it was, today in fact. It fits in with his trolling schedule for this afternoon.
223

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:54:56
238

Ah you are of course referring to consensus politics presently being employed by the SNP in order to keep their manifesto promises so what are you complaining about? if the SNP cant keep to one or two of their promises it will be because they cant get the consensus due to being a minority government which backs up the statement you derided earlier

"The SNP's multiple variations from their manifesto promises have been blamed on their minority status in the parliament."

you cant say it isnt so then point out it is and no be called a liar yet again.
224

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 12:55:39
#243 Please stop this sort of childish nonsense. It detracts from the debate.
225

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 12:58:46
245

What debate?
You tell lies we point it out isnt debating.
226

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/09/2008 13:08:02
I just cannot understand why Gray raised this issue - it is a complete red herring - and I say that as someone who opposes the LIT as it is proposed.

There are far better arguments against the LIT plan than this spurious argument.

Gray would have been better being more constructive, for example, pinning down the First Minister to the actual action he has taken thus far regards HBOS and progress made.
227

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 13:13:04
Just how important is the subject of economics to Iain Gray anyway? Here is his statement on it:

'But our story is different. While Alex Salmond was studying the dismal science – economics – in the academic birthplace of Thatcherism, I was studying natural science in the academic home of the enlightenment'

It seems only right therefore that Gray has taken to spending his time among the Labour monkeys.
228

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/09/2008 13:14:36
"#58 suchaparcelofrogues,Scotland 26/09/2008 07:49:30
56

What we need are lower taxes not different taxes"

Not actually true - a good tax system is one that has a range of different taxes not one based on a narrow band of taxes. The more you concentrate taxation on a particular type of tax the more likely it is that peopel take action to either evade it (legally) or avoid it (illegally).
229

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 13:22:35
#248 I think that is quite naive. Governments are always held to account on their promises. There is nothing unusual about how the SNP are being treated. They are just totally unfamiliar with being in government. It comes with the territory.
230

John S,

26/09/2008 13:41:43
The Labour Party 1997Manifesto.
Labour has met nearly 80% of its 1997 election pledges, according to a major research project carried out by the BBC.
The research - commissioned to mark the fifth anniversary of Tony Blair's election victory - shows that 48 out of 229 manifesto promises are either too difficult to judge or have not been met.BBC 3 May, 2002
This election pledge was never met:-
We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.
How many votes did Labour receive based on that manifesto commitment ?

The SNP have until 5 may 2011 to try and complete there manifesto and then voters will decide.
231

vimto,

26/09/2008 13:42:56
brownlie. Such a warm welcome!
232

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 13:47:53
#256 No, you've just never paid the same amount of attention before. The SNP in opposition spent their whole time banging on at the coalition on their manifesto commitments. It's how politics works in this country. You are choosing to see the SNP as victims, which I must say rather fits in with the profile of a typical SNP supporter. Always fighting back against some big man holding you down. Except he exists only in your head.
233

brownlie,

26/09/2008 13:53:59
245 Duncan

Debate involves putting forward logical arguments. Convenient evasion of points made, random attempts at insults and ignoring awkward questions does not contribute to a debate.
234

Who?,

26/09/2008 13:55:54
The local income tax is a bit of nonsence- why can't people pay for the services they use?

Everybody uses the pavements and has rubbish collected so why can't there be a flat payment for that?

On a slightly different topic i'm a great believer that if you have private medical insurance or send your children to fee paying schools then you should have a tax rebate.

Forcing people to pay a percentage of their salary to prop up people who are lazy is awful. If people can't afford to pay for the services then they will either have to do without or get a second job.
235

brownlie,

26/09/2008 13:57:38
258 vimto

I was only kidding. "Your presence is welcomed with me and my friends here" - old William Nelson song. I am not allowed by the Scotsman to give his real name!!!
236

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 13:58:52
254

Fair enough its politics but to say the SNP dont have a case for saying they are having difficulties delivering their manifesto promises due to them being a minority government is disengenuous to say the least.
They have done exceptionally well to deliver the policies they have so far and it was a stroke of political genius to get their first budget through a hostile parliament. Nobody can claim they cant govern.
237

Lock,

26/09/2008 13:59:18
suchaparcelofrogues,

The council tax is beneficial to the housing market, not LIT. Please give us some detail how LIT is better in that sense? Or are you perhaps just saying so in the hope that no-one will ask you to back up your point?

Plus: 'dividend payments are charged under corporation tax didnt you know that?'. How is that an answer to a question about people who decide to pay themselves in dividends? They won't pay any council tax. They will pay the same amount of Corporation/Income tax as they otherwise would. Please explain.

I suspect you don't actually know your subject and are spitting out answers that you hope are too complex to be criticised.

For the record I support a local income tax, but would rather it was explained properly instead of lies being made up about it in an attempt to justify it.
238

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 13:59:45
261

3p is a flat rate.
239

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 13:59:49
#260 You mean thoughtful, carefully worded logical arguments like in #96-98? The ones that have so far been evaded or ignored by people like yourself, or insulted by people like Suchaparcel? Gotcha.
240

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 14:00:45
264

"The council tax is beneficial to the housing market, not LIT. Please give us some detail how LIT is better in that sense"

Very simply because it doesnt penalise the ownership of property.
241

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 14:02:31
264

Plus: 'dividend payments are charged under corporation tax didnt you know that?'. How is that an answer to a question about people who decide to pay themselves in dividends? They won't pay any council tax. They will pay the same amount of Corporation/Income tax as they otherwise would. Please explain.

None of that makes any sense it looks like you have taken the debate leading up to that statement out of context read it again from the begining of the debate.
242

vimto,

26/09/2008 14:02:37
brownlie. How are things in bonny scotland this fine afternoon,have you any idea when the Glenrothes by-election will be called.
243

vimto,

26/09/2008 14:06:02
Lara Crofter. Calm down deary,the snp have a minority government,nothing to shout about!
244

brownlie,

26/09/2008 14:06:08
266 Duncan

At the risk of mixing metaphors I think the "Gotcha" is on the other foot and by using that expression you've given away who you really are. Have you been on since 2am (anagram)?
245

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 14:08:01
266

No those are bare faced lies New Duncan not statements of facts that can be debated and mulled over.
Facts are proven statements not posted opinions or wishful thinking backed up by nothing.
246

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 14:10:01
#271 Perception again, dear lady.

I have said very, very little about "unionism". To you, unfortunately, attacking a policy like LIT is an attack on the core (the only?) value of the SNP, namely independence. Someone who attacks LIT, or another Salmond policy, must be fighting for the union. It's a silly, groundless assumption.

I certainly have been affected by hearing the braying self-satisfaction of SNP supporters on here as they gloat and preen and assume. This makes me more irate, perhaps. Fairly understandable I would say.
247

brownlie,

26/09/2008 14:10:22
270 vimto

Getting bonnier by the day!

As far as Glenrothes is concerned I understand Gordon Brown is consulting the three ladies from scene 1 of Macbeth as we speak - I hope Duncan does not get offended.
248

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 14:11:44
#273 Oh god are you another one of the paranoics who believe that everyone who doesn't love Alex is the same person in disguise. Give me strength.
249

brownlie,

26/09/2008 14:14:45
277 Duncan

No, I'm not but in your case I'm willing to make an exception. It's the same tired arguments, previous form and the arrogance that gives you away.
250

suchaparcelofrogues,

26/09/2008 14:15:49
277

Dont be silly new Duncan we all now know you are a hard working IT something in Edinburgh with encyclopedic knowledge of up to date New Labour party propaganda spin statements memorised and posted to the letter.
251

Lock,

26/09/2008 14:17:12
'Very simply because it doesnt penalise the ownership of property.'

Which does what to the property market? Puts upward pressure on it. Property tax on the other hand gives people the incentive to co-habit and live in appropriately sized houses which relieves the supply side. Anyhoo, another side of that coin could be that an income tax 'penalises hard work', which is as fair a soundbite as yours.

'None of that makes any sense it looks like you have taken the debate leading up to that statement out of context'

No I didn't. The question was 'What about dividends', and your answer was 'dividend payments are charged under corporation tax didnt you know that?' which doesn't really answer the question.
252

Scotfree,

Erskine 26/09/2008 14:25:55
Well surprise, surprise, the ink isn't even dry on the HBoS scam (indeed the deal is not yet done) and it is being used to threaten and blackmail the Scottish people and their elected representatives from attaining their legitimate desires and aspirations. The labour party are the lickspittles of the British establishment, there is no depth they will not plunge to appease their masters. What other legislation is to be prescribed because our assets and resources are stolen from us for the benefit of Albion. As Voltaire made comment "This is our freedom."
253

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 14:30:05
280
"Property tax on the other hand gives people the incentive to co-habit and live in appropriately sized houses which relieves the supply side"

Really I thought it was sex or marriage which encouraged people to co-habit?

Appropriately sized houses? my understanding of most people is they tend to buy the biggest and best house they can afford. Who decides what is appropriate for who then?

"an income tax 'penalises hard work'"

Really funnily enough again in my experiance the people with the most money do the least amount of work cos they dont have to.

"No I didn't. The question was 'What about dividends', and your answer was 'dividend payments are charged under corporation tax didnt you know that?' which doesn't really answer the question"

What question???? So what about dividends? what was the context of the question? I aint going back over old posts just to dig it out for you.
If you have a problem with my answer explain what it is.
254

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 14:30:48
280

Aye Royster the names different but the trolls the same.
255

AJ Fife,

26/09/2008 14:32:24
#279,

Makes you wonder how he has time to go around changing ink cartridges! Perhaps the 'IT something' story is another clever deception. Let's face it, deceipt is what the Labour Party have perfected over the last 10 or 11 years.
256

Matt there,

Somewhere 26/09/2008 14:37:50
Yes, Hamish. Of course it will. And the SNP was also to blame for the Black Death, Scurvy, mumps and German Measles.
257

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/09/2008 14:39:24
Duncan - you increasingly look like a mouthpiece for the Labour Party - defending the indefensible.

Are you not at least a wee bit embarassed by this tenuous link between HBOS and LIT?

It just proves to me that Labour have lost the plot completely.

Oh for a real non-nationalist democratic socialist party - but I have more chance of winning the Euromillions than that happening.
258

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/09/2008 14:40:53
#278 Not the same person I believe - AM2 is a Tory and would criticise NuLabour - Duncan would never do that.
259

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/09/2008 14:43:21
#285 To be honest a lot of people I've met are rather indifferent to the whole debate - there are a whole pile of political agnostics out there - those who do not have a strong opinion one way or other.
260

brownlie,

26/09/2008 14:43:58
289 The Fed

Actually, he does criticise NuLab but only in a friendly, paternalistic way.
261

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 14:54:55
Are we agreed folks that LIT/CT/Smarties/Cost of toffee tax will have little or no bearing on the amount of HBOS / Lloyds jobs in Scotland.
262

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/09/2008 15:02:09
#291 Agreed - from an opponent of LIT.
263

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:05:23
#Tormod

Think arguing over LIT and linking it to the HBOS crisis could cost jobs. If you were the head of Lloyds you would want to see a united front from all the political parties selling the merits of Scotland as a location. You would not want them arguing like children.
264

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 15:05:34
I believe there are less than half a dozen genuine posters on here not being paid to post plus one or 2 cyber geeks on for mischief and jollies.
The rest either work for the Scotsman or are party politically affiliated propaganda trolls.
265

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:08:20
#suchaparcelofrogues

or just bored at work
266

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:09:06
#287 I haven't even once expressed an opinion about the Labour strategy to use HBOS in their campaign against LIT. Not once. And yet you think I have been "defending" it. Very odd.

I don't think that linking the two is a particularly useful strategy. But I don't think either that Salmond's huffing outrage is anything more than politicking.

My whole argument on this thread has been at the substance of the SNP LIT proposals, not the fluff around them. As yet I haven't read a decent defence of the proposals themselves, just 100 or so outraged Labour-haters incensed that not everyone in the world shares their view, and frustrated that some who don't are articulate, intelligent and persuasive.

As ever, because I have a brain in my head and can put across an argument I am accused of "encyclopedic knowledge of up to date New Labour party propaganda spin statements". Yet I have no connection whatsoever with the Labour party. But the most vociferous SNP-applauding folk on here do not get accused of being on the SNP payroll or regurgitating SNP spin. Why is that? Because they arrogantly think that their view, and only their view, is the "right" one. That is the sort of attitude nationalism breeds. One of the reasons I loathe it.
267

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:10:27
#289 The Federalist

I think you are right that alot of people are not too bothered either way.

Or if they have an opinion it is not overwhelmingly important that it would really influence them too much.

Personally tend to find those that go to london and choose to come back tend to be abit more nationalist.
268

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 15:13:13
292 Fed I think we've discussed issues in the past my medium term memory can be bad, did we chat about the Norwegian surplus / statoil etc? The ridiculous link Iain Gray has suggested is just plain daft if you are against LIT or not is not only silly it could be damaging!

293 Alan B - Absolutley going by the body language at FMQ's Alex Salmond have the same thought as yourself sir.
269

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:17:06
#293 Interesting how you see the picking of an argument, once more, as a one way thing. It's always the big bad Labour people who pick arguments isn't it, while the lovely SNP folk try to do the best for Scotland.

There's none so blind as those that will not see.
270

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 15:18:20
Duncan no I was just highlighting the flaws in your arguments over local accoutability ie fiscal etc. The traits you so despise are not localised to any political ideal they are human and are in every one of us.
271

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 15:18:55
296

"My whole argument on this thread has been at the substance of the SNP LIT proposals, not the fluff around them. As yet I haven't read a decent defence of the proposals themselves, just 100 or so outraged Labour-haters incensed that not everyone in the world shares their view, and frustrated that some who don't are articulate, intelligent and persuasive."

New Duncan you have had LIT explained to you dozens of times you have had your lies shot down dozens of times.
You have read every conceivable reasonable argument in favour of LIT.
And all you do is pretend it is irrelevant.
No argument or answer will suffice you simply want to pretend LIT wont work. You know LIT is a better alternative to the others You know most people will be better off but you pretend you dont now how can anybody possibly debate with such a prat?
I dont know if you get paid by the word or the letter but I bet its one or the other.

272

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 15:19:54
Example your post at 299.
273

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 15:22:09
295

That will be the the Scotsman staff then.
274

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:22:16
#Duncan in Edinburgh

I really cannot be bother getting involved in another spat with you.

But look what happened here.

We have a very serious economic situation here. There appeared to be a united front form all the scottish political parties. Why try to bring up LIT at this time and why try to link it to the HBOS crisis.

Thought Salmonds spiv comment was stupid. But that was not picking a fight with labour as it was directed at the short sellers.

Why do you think it is a good idea for the labour leader to start a squabble about LIT at this time. Darling did the same thing on Sunday morning.

Seriously what good can come of it?

Argue about LIT fine but not at the moment and definitely do not try to link it to the HBOS crisis. It is a betrayal of the economy for short term political reasons.



275

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:23:05
#suchaparcelofrogues

lol
276

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:25:50
#300 Not sure what you are saying no to.

Ref fiscal responsibility, my point is that Edinburgh Council could today decide to add £10 million to the cost of the Meadowbank rebuild in order to create a covered velodrome, and could announce that next year's council tax will rise by an above inflation amount to pay for it.

If you remove the council's ability to set local tax rates, you remove the possibility of this sort of action.

Conversely, the council could say that they are going to sell off Edinburgh Leisure's entire portfolio to a private company, and use the proceeds to fund a real terms cut in the Council Tax next year.

This the point I'm making about fiscal accountability.
277

brownlie,

26/09/2008 15:28:00
288 The Fed

There you have it - Duncan at #296 states he has no connection with the Labour Party - so what other party does he support? As you said AM2 is a Tory.
278

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:28:11
#305 Excuse me, do you think I'm Iain Gray now?

I'm not here to defend the tactical decisions of Labour. I have not done so. Why are you suddenly telling me I think it's a good idea for this to have been done?

It's absolutely nothing to do with me, and I haven't defended it!
279

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:28:58
#308 Anyone who has read my comments would know I wasn't a Tory. I am who I say I am. You are a wind-up merchant.
280

brownlie,

26/09/2008 15:29:49
294 parcelofrogues

Why one of these categories do you put yourself in?
281

brownlie,

26/09/2008 15:30:22
311 should read "Which one ...."
282

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 15:32:24
Duncan the example you gave is not about Fiscal responsibilty, fiscal responsibilty is managing their budget.

Your example is a decision to change, renew upgrade basically thats capital or estate management which could be paid by increasing charges to Council services.

The Last example is also estate or financial management a centrally set LIT would not remove that option, they could use the money for other projects.
283

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:34:50
#Duncan

Sorry Duncan but every time you post with me I think you understand basic comprehension.

"It's absolutely nothing to do with me, and I haven't defended it!"

Given that you posted

"Interesting how you see the picking of an argument, once more, as a one way thing. It's always the big bad Labour people who pick arguments isn't it, while the lovely SNP folk try to do the best for Scotland."

That does seem as a defence of Gray from where i am sitting. Or at best just trying to blame the snp to share the blame for Grays stupidity.

If you look at my post in reply to another poster all I said was picking a fight about LIT and linking it to HBOS at this time could cost jobs as the head of Lloyds will just seem them squabbling like children.

If they are going to squabble do not do it now and do not jeapordise any small chance we might have of getting jobs remaining or located in Scotland.
284

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 15:36:21
The very last thing that Labour should be doing at this moment is displaying a show of dis-unity in the Scottish Parliament and banding the name of HBOS about in their petty squabble.

Lloyds could well look at this and say, stuff it we are not getting involved in a divided countries internal politics, well done Labour!!!!

285

brownlie,

26/09/2008 15:39:02
310 Duncan

Well spotted! You are more perceptive than your earlier posts would indicate.
286

Darien,

Panama 26/09/2008 15:39:25
#305 Gray has been told from on high to attack the SNP. He therefore needs to find issues to attack and any issue will do. LIT is just one issue, others will be selected at random. This kind of parliamentary squabble seeking is immature and non-productive, but confrontation is all the BritNat/unionist parties have in their armoury - they are devoid of ideas. They were all complicit in ensuring the Scottish block grant was held down by Westminster. Only the Scottish Government has complained about that very tight 'settlement', while the BritNat/unionists have been more than content to see an SNP Government struggle to spread what money they have adequately around so many worthy areas. All parties at Holyrood have a common enemy - its called Westmister. NewLab and the others should have realised this long ago, but it will soon be too late for them.
287

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:39:40
#Nevsky

Completely agree.

With Darling and Gray both trying to link LIT to HBOS I think labour are tactically thinking that they can try to blame the snp if Lloyds take the jobs south.

288

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:41:47
#315 Well that makes two of us. How you can think what you quoted was me defending Gray is utterly beyond me. I was commenting on the fact that yet again, like you did with reference to me, you claimed that the side that YOU disagree with was "picking a fight" whereas the side that you agree with is just defending themselves.

The LIT proposal IS the SNP's responsibility. You could just as well argue that the SNP picked the fight by proposing it, and Labour are simply responding.

Your beef appears to be timing. I think you're over-egging it. Lloyds' decision is not going to be swayed by an exchange at FMQs just as it isn't going to be swayed by a presentation by Salmond. It will be swayed by what is best for shareholder value. Such is life in a capitalist system.
289

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:44:14
#314 Please Lara read this carefully.

When I criticise the SNP's LIT policy, I am not "campaigning for the union". I am criticising a policy I think is deeply flawed.

It is YOUR PERCEPTION which turns this into some sort of unionist campaign. Not anything I am saying.
290

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:44:46
#Darien

I think it is a diversionary tactic. If labour can get the media talking about LIT it takes away from the HBOS issue.

Lets face it people with blame both HBOS management and labour for the mess. The classic Blairism to control the media agenda. As such if they can move discussions on to LIT then they will remove much of their negative press.

It is a short term political strategy as you say. But given the seriousness of the economic situation we are in then it is completely irresponsible.

We should also notice the other 2 unionist parties do not seem to have been so irresponsible. (unless i have missed it)
291

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 15:46:33
Duncan the introduction of LIT will not stop councils being fiscally responsible or making decision such as upgrading facilities.

They have more finance options than the Scottish parliament the issuing of bonds being the most obvious.
292

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 15:48:01
#318 Ah, the old lies come out again.

"They were all complicit in ensuring the Scottish block grant was held down by Westminster."

Oh aye. Held down to an above inflation increase, for the tenth year running.

"Only the Scottish Government has complained about that very tight 'settlement'"

And there's that Swinney phrase again, "tight settlement", coined because he couldn't say it was a cut, he couldn't even say it was a real terms cut, and he couldn't even say it was an inflationary increase. It was an above inflation increase.

The SNP have more money in their budget than any previous Scottish Executive.

Tight settlement my backside.
293

brownlie,

26/09/2008 15:48:38
320 Duncan

After "Such is life in a capitalist system" - you forgot to add "with which the UK government is completely inadequate and incompetent to deal."
294

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 15:50:13
#296 "My whole argument on this thread has been at the substance of the SNP LIT proposals, not the fluff around them. As yet I haven't read a decent defence of the proposals themselves, just 100 or so outraged Labour-haters incensed that not everyone in the world shares their view, and frustrated that some who don't are articulate, intelligent and persuasive."

Ooh, someone has a high opinion of themselves - I'll give you one out of three on that last claim. But you cite your post at 96-98, yet haven't (as far as I've seen) responded to the challenges made to it, such as your claim that LIT for the rich will be cut from 4.5% to 3%. Where has this 4.5% come from?

As for fiscal accountability, councils will still have to publish their accounts. It'll be a matter of public record how much money they have to spend and what they've spent it on, and the public can judge them accordingly. Whether that money was raised centrally by a national tax or locally by a variable council tax is ultimately totally irrelevant - councils under LIT will have a fixed amount to spend, just as they do now, and will be free to supplement that by selling assets to fund services or building extra things, just as they are now.

And of course, none of it has anything to do with HBOS.
295

Fairfax,

26/09/2008 15:50:16
Lara Crofter (314): "By contrast, the passion for the union in Scotland is so non-existent that it beggars belief that anyone would actually bother to campaign for the union"

There's some truth to this. Even those of my Scottish relatives and friends who support the Union do so arguing from pragmatism, in the sense of "better the devil you know". I cannot recall meeting any Scot who strongly supported the Union per se, although I have met older Scots with strong British patriotism, at least when discussing WWII.
296

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 15:52:04
323 Duncan#

Will you criticise Labour for linking LIT with the HBOS affair and do you think it is correct that Labour are attempting, at this time, to involve Lloyds in party politics?
297

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:52:28
#Duncan in Edinburgh

Yes my beef is only the timing.

As I said it may not swing things. But we should all try and unite to try to get these jobs for Scotland at this time. It may or may not make a difference.

But I can tell you if I was the king pin who was making a decision like this I was walk away if the politicians show so little interest in providing a united front.

Labour and the other parties admirably showed a united front for about a week. And everyone praised them for it. Why, why did Gray have to destroy it now? (and i know you cannot answer for him)

But you would get more respect from other posters if you would just say it was stupid and not try to do labours tactic of trying to spead the blame for it.

Why did Darling go on about LIT on Sunday morning. He is not even in the SP. This crisis shows why of all the parties labour have little respect from me.
298

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 26/09/2008 15:52:35
Duncan laddie when you stop kicking yourself in the bum and running into walls sit down and think about what you are doing!
299

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 15:53:26
#327 "The SNP have more money in their budget than any previous Scottish Executive."

And inflation is higher - twice as high, in fact - as it was for any previous Scottish Executive. Tell us, Duncan: what was inflation when the settlement was imposed, and what is it now? Does it still count as an "above inflation increase"?
300

Alan B,

26/09/2008 15:56:11
#Fairfax

"I cannot recall meeting any Scot who strongly supported the Union per se"

In the west coast you get the Rangers unionist type of thing. Union flag and GSTQ (as defender of the faith) type of thing. Orange order. Support for Ulster etc. Even at the NI game recently some of the away fans were scottish supporting NI as supporters of the union etc.

301

brownlie,

26/09/2008 15:58:30
322 Col Blimb

It was a simple typing error - it should have read "I AM 2 I AM" - just a wee subliminal hint.
302

Alan B,

26/09/2008 16:00:30
#Lara Crofter

I do not think Duncan is purely about anti union. He comes across much more as labour right or wrong (Iraq war type of thing excepted).

Almost like the blind devotion of a football supporter to their team.

303

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 16:01:12
#329 4.5% is a conservative estimate of what Lit should be set at to recoup the same revenues as CT. As I explained already, in the original post.

And councils DO NOT currently have a fixed amount to spend. They set their own council tax rates! How hard is that to understand?

Do you think fixing local taxation nationally will improve fiscal accountability for local authorities? Make it worse? Or keep it the same? I fail to see how anyone could argue anything but the second option, since their control over their budgets is being drastically reduced.
304

brownlie,

26/09/2008 16:01:59
339 The Spook in heretic what?

Rubbish!! Be off with your pro-SNP propoganda - leave that to Duncan who's doing a fine job for Salmond.
305

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 16:04:21
343 Duncan#

But what has it got to do with Lloyds and do you support Labour's attempt to play politics with jobs and involve Lloyds in party politics?

Is this an acceptable and responsible way for the opposition to conduct themselves at such a time?
306

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 16:06:08
#339 That is not the effect of local income tax. That is the effect of the tax cut being brought in simultaneously. Local income tax spreading the same revenues across the same constituency would result is far higher bills for the rich and those on middle incomes. But the SNP do not want to upset the rich or those on middle incomes. They seem to have persuaded people like you that it is LIT that will be saving the middle income folk money. It isn't. It's the tax cut they are bundling in with it. The bribe.
307

Alan B,

26/09/2008 16:08:20
#Duncan in Edinburgh

It was a tight settlement as it was the lowest ever increase to the scottish parliament.

Bit like giving a worker 7% a yrs for 10yrs and then giving them 1.4% (0.5%) increase. As it is substantially lower than the increases over the past decade it is a tight settlement.

Serious question. It was a 0.5% increase in the first yr of a 3yr settlement. I assume correct me if I am wrong that that is 0.5% above cpi (the government official inflation rate). We all know rpi has been way above cpi (about a percentage point) as such was the 0.5% increase a cut if you used the rpi inflation rate?

The biggest problem for a government with a low increase is spending priority are done in the increase. Generally other spending is already commited and government do not tend to cut spending in other areas. They simply do not increase them squeesing them over time. As such, such a low increase prevent a new government direct spending to its priorities rather than previous government priorities.

308

brownlie,

26/09/2008 16:08:38
347 Col. Blimp

No problem! Have you still got these old HBOS notes. I believe they accept them at the Heriot Watt's Student Union - if only we knew a student???
309

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 26/09/2008 16:09:13

One question which appears not to have raised about the proposed LIT is: "is it an appropriate use of the Scotland's parliament's power (unique in the UK) to vary the basic rate of income tax by 3%".

If this power is used to replace Council tax, then the Scottish parliament will lose effectively this power to raise extra revenue for public services and will also reduce the scope for reducing the overall income tax in the future, if a government so decides. Even if you believe in funding local government on the basis of an income tax rather than a property tax, this is not the best way to go about it. At best the SNP's LIT proposal can only be a temporary one which would have to be substantially modified in the near future, which would not do wonders for Scotland's image and credibility. It seems to me that while it appears to superficially enhance Scotland's status by making it more different from the rest of the UK and potentially lining up a confrontation with the Westminster government, it actually undermines Scotland's devolved powers.

To me a better solution would be to have a property based local tax modulated (reduced or increased) according to the tax payer's taxable income. It is reasonable to tax property on environmental grounds and to have a broader tax base. To me it would be better to develop a long-term solution, which could be part of a program for an indepedent Scotland or for a UK-wide reform of local taxation.
310

westview,

middle Scotland 26/09/2008 16:09:55
Did any one notice that the Swiss National Bank is helping to sort out the wests financial guddle? Along side the European Central Bank and the American financial institution ,wee Switzerland, the same size of population as Scotland , can help prop up the western economy. Right enough ,the Swiss have self government which gives them the chance to make decisions in the Swiss National interest. Wish Scotland had its freedom sooner rather than later from bankrupt Great Britain, so that better choices could be made for us.
311

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 16:11:15
307

And a damn good idea it is too. Edinburgh council made a killing on selling the land around Meadowbank after buying it cheaply from a local developer. They paid something like just over 100000 grand for it and sold it for something like 4 million.
Not a penny of it went to local services.
312

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 16:11:35
#347 I do not share the current media-inspired hysteria about the Lloyds takeover of HBOS. I think Salmond is playing it up, and Bill Jamieson at the Scotsman is playing it up even more. Both are self-publicists, and both have a vested interest in seeing the Tories in power in Westminster after the next election.

The LIT has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I don't think it is necessary to link LIT to HBOS in order to attack Salmond over the effects that LIT will bring. Neither do I think Gray's use of it the crime of the century that various posters here appear to.

As for "playing politics with jobs" and "involving Lloyds in party politics", I have a rather wider view of that. Gordon Brown has been playing politics with it today with his meeting of Bush; Alex Salmond played politics earlier in the week with his meeting with various bankers and his huge PR push about making a presentation to Lloyds; and Iain Gray did it yesterday in FMQs.

That is how politicians work. I'm certainly not going to get het up about it.
313

Alan B,

26/09/2008 16:13:21
#MacMhuirich

The snp plans for LIT do not propose to use the 3p power of the Scottish parliament.
314

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 16:13:45
343

When you say conservative is that the conservative party estimate? why should LIT have to raise the same amount of revenue as council tax when council tax raises too much revenue for local spending commitments?
You never did answer that question earlier as usual.
315

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 16:16:22
#350 I accept it was less of an over-inflation increase than in previous years. I still find it funny that the SNP had to invent this whole concept of "tight" because they couldn't use factual words like "reduction", "cut" or "freeze".

But the point is that the amount is set entirely according to UK spending plans. It would be impossible for Westminster to "punish" the SNP with a lower increase, as has been widely suggested around here in the past. They completely constrained by the spending review.

The whole "tight settlement" nonsense was the first example of the sort of SNP fight-picking that has hardened my opinion against them. It was a barefaced, shameless piece of spin, and it still astonishes me how many people lapped it up.
316

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 16:16:46
343

"And councils DO NOT currently have a fixed amount to spend. They set their own council tax rates! How hard is that to understand"

And now try naming one which has done it sensibly and prudently and honestly? in fact isnt the council tax annual increace rate not determined by central government? wasnt it 4% this year?
317

suchaparcelofrogues,

26/09/2008 16:17:43
355

Should read 100 grand.
318

,

26/09/2008 16:18:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
319

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 16:18:43
#358 Please justify "council tax raises too much revenue for local spending commitments".

It makes no sense to me. You are saying CT was bringing in too much money? Then why have the SNP/Lib Dem coalition in Edinburgh canned the schools maintenance programme, the schools building programme, creche services, charities funding and a whole raft of other things? What are they doing with the excess CT revenues?
320

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 16:19:02
356 Duncan#

Salmond is playing it up? I think that is something that should be expected of the first minister don't you. Ridiculous of you or anyone else to suggest otherwise i am afraid.

Gray's use of Lloyds is not the crime of the centure but it is completely irresponsible at this time to introduce and play up any reason or give any excuse why Lloyds should not base jobs here. That is as irresponsible as it gets in a more than delicate situation.

Lastly although you take the wider view as you pointed out it is Salmond that has had all the meetings with unions, bankers, bosses and trying to secure the jobs. Brown and darling were in Manchester and have had no meeting whatsoever.

Personally i prefer Salmond's brand of politics than the more, shall we say, hands off approach of Brown!
321

brownlie,

26/09/2008 16:20:44
360

If it was less of an over-inflation increase then it must be a lower increase -less meaning lower. That is why is has been wide commented on here.
322

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 16:20:54
#343 "And councils DO NOT currently have a fixed amount to spend. They set their own council tax rates! How hard is that to understand?"

Good grief. Yes, they set the rates. Once a year. Which brings in a FIXED amount of revenue. Councils don't go "Ooh, this project turned out more expensive than we thought, so we're bumping the CT up a bit from November to February to pay for it". Their revenue per annum is known in advance, because it's (number of taxpayers) x (amount of council tax).

Under LIT, they'll still have a fixed amount every year. So where's the meaningful, practical change?

Your 4.5% figure is entirely notional, so saying it's a tax cut for the rich is nonsensical. I might as well say that I think the rich should be taxed at 80% not 40%, so current income tax is a massive "tax cut" for them. Not much of an argument from a self-professed "intelligent" man, and an awfully long way short of "persuasive".
323

Duncan in Edinburgh,

26/09/2008 16:20:56
#361 Oh at least find out the facts on a subject before you start spouting.

I'm going. I have to cook a meal. Have a good night everyone, and don't believe everything Alex tells you.
324

Alan B,

26/09/2008 16:21:02
#Duncan in Edinburgh

I do not believe either Brown or Salmond played politics with it in that way. We expect politicians to rightfully critise the areas and problems they see in regard to the problem ie regualtion, short selling, approaches to liquidity, mergers etc.

But it is completely different for a politician to publically say that effectively Lloyds would be daft to locate in scotland due to potential tax policies of the government. It is an argument for another day.

LLoyds should see all the major parties are united in saying come to Scotland what can we do to make that a feasible option.

You do not see it as a big deal for the Scottish economy that scotland will lose another headquarters with the associated jobs potentially having dire consequences for the financial industry. What if you are wrong?
325

,

26/09/2008 16:21:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
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326

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 16:21:17
354

You wont get a shred of evidence to back up a single statement he makes. Its all personal opinion tripe wishful thinking and wind up.
327

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 16:24:09
369

So was it or wasnt it 4% this year? determined by central government? in fact hasnt the council tax annual rate increace been determined by central government since its inception?
328

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 26/09/2008 16:25:04
#365 "It makes no sense to me. You are saying CT was bringing in too much money? Then why have the SNP/Lib Dem coalition in Edinburgh canned the schools maintenance programme, the schools building programme, creche services, charities funding and a whole raft of other things? What are they doing with the excess CT revenues?"

We know what Edinburgh City Council is doing with all its money. Funding a ludicrous vanity tram project that almost nobody, least of all the Scottish Government, wants.
329

brownlie,

26/09/2008 16:28:19
371 Bird of prey

Spook and the Colonel have gone to the union to dispose of the Colonel's ill-gotten gains from the Crimean War.

Must go - AM2's cooking me a meal!
330

Alan B,

26/09/2008 16:29:29
#Duncan in Edinburgh

2 things

1 the snp did not invent the term tight settlement. I have heard the term many many times before. Generally within pay rounds in companies or from unions and employers.

2 why should they over egg the pudding and say it was a cut. The thing the turned me off labour was the lies during the tory yrs. Every time they would come out with this cut or that cut about say the nhs. I was amazed when I later found out the only party to ever cut real term spending in the nhs was labour in the 70s due to the mess of the economy.

You critise the snp for using the term tight settlement. Did you ever critise labour for using similare arguements regarding the tories. Or is it one rule for one party and one for the other.

The reason for the tight settlement was due to one thing. Labours economic mismanagement. ie they had spend far too much compared to what we were bringing in and Brown as breaking his own fiscal rules and being brought to boot by the EU for fiscal irresponsibility.
331

Alan B,

26/09/2008 16:31:37
#Duncan in Edinburgh

You have not answered my question regarding whether the 0.5% increase was a cut if inflation was measured using the traditional rpi measure. Do you know? I am genuinely interested in that answer?

(I think it was Jamieson of the scotsman who on tv at the time of the announcement suggest it was a real cut due to the inflation differentials.)
332

,

26/09/2008 16:39:55
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333

,

26/09/2008 16:48:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
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334

steve52,

Kinfauns 26/09/2008 16:50:19
Nice to see Ham...ish has a new hero. Thought he would have learned his lesson with poor wee Wendy. So the Grey man manufactors a link that is non existant....putting himself before the people of Scotland.
335

Nevsky,

Moscow 26/09/2008 16:52:00
Just read something regarding Ruth Kelly on the Herald site, hope it doesn't upset your night:

'Ms Kelly praised the Foreign Secretary David Miliband, who is said to be positioning himself for a leadership challenge. The pair, who are now good friends, had a brief fling in their twenties'


Don't know what is worse a supposed Opus Dei member putting it about of David taking it..anyway i am going to wretch now..night all.

336

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 16:57:14
365

If council tax is the measure of what the local taxation income to spending ratio should be then why is there such a high figure of rebate and benefit?
You have never answered that point although it has been put to you several times.
And if council tax is not the measure of what the local taxation income to spending ratio should be then why is it being used as the reference figure to attack LIT by saying LIT doesnt raise enough to cover local spending commitments?
337

,

26/09/2008 17:05:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
338

Yankee girl,

California 26/09/2008 17:56:19
"Mr Salmond insisted, however, that not only did Scots want a local income tax ..."

Gee, who WANTS an income tax. That sounds like something our dear Prez Bush would say.

339

AM2,

Scotland,UK 26/09/2008 18:40:54
#288 #308

I'm as much of a Tory as 46% is a consensus.
340

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 18:42:18
394

How about 35%
341

AM2,

Scotland,UK 26/09/2008 18:46:22
#395

There's no consensus to retain council tax either.
342

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 18:48:42
396

Is there no? disnae surprise me.
343

AM2,

Scotland,UK 26/09/2008 18:53:16
#398

No, I only post as AM2, or "Scottish Unionist" on my blog.
344

AM2,

Scotland,UK 26/09/2008 18:54:12
#397 #398

New usernames? Who were you before?
345

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 18:54:51
399

What is the link to your blog?
346

JonC,

Edinburgh 26/09/2008 18:55:08
Well I know that if I was a Lloyds TSB executive I would be horrified at the thought of giving up my home in polluted, crime ridden London and moving to Scotland. I would particularly miss the chats with my driver during my 6 hour round-trip commute to and from the City.
I doubt on £500k (plus bonuses) I could afford to pay a few thousand pounds more each year on LIT than I do on my London Council Tax (c. £3k on a decent band H townhouse), and this wouldn't be offset by any savings I might make in the cost of living (around 17% according to reports commissioned by the mayor's office). As for the idea of moving from the south east of England where the boom/bust housing market is riddled with negative equity to somewhere like central Scotland where house prices haven't fallen in real terms for 30 years... well, it doesn't bear thinking about.
347

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 18:56:32
400

Not so new goes back to 1791.
348

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 18:59:23
404

Now new Duncan.
349

brownlie,

26/09/2008 19:01:51
399 AM2

Welcome! You'll be glad to get out of the closet then?
350

AM2,

Scotland,UK 26/09/2008 19:04:49
#404

Sorry, must be my poor memory.

#403

LOL @ 1791. Blog is www.scottishunionist.com
351

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:05:14
408

Wish I could tangle webs and type at the same time it would give me such a sense of acheivement.
Cant afford the lobotomy though.
352

AM2,

Scotland,UK 26/09/2008 19:08:08
#407

Oh dear. Gratuitous reference to Duncan's sexuality.

I'll leave you to it...
353

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 19:08:50
All we need now is Ayrshire Scot...
354

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:11:01
409

I thought you were Irish? oh sorry I meant an Ulsterman.
355

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:12:28
413

A minority of one eh? obviously under appreciated
356

Hamish Scott,

26/09/2008 19:13:35
Perhaps if the Scotsman tried to be a quality newspaper instead of the house journal for Scottish Labour it would have an article about the meeting of the British-Irish Council that took place today in Edinburgh instead of this cringe-inducing nonsense about LIT. Is it because it was hosted by Alex Salmond?
357

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:13:50
411

Is new Duncan a homosexual as well?
358

brownlie,

26/09/2008 19:16:12
411 AM2

It certainly was not - Duncan's sexuality, like most of his posts, is of no interest or relevance to me. Why would I refer to his sexuality when addressing you?

I was actually referring to you coming out of your web-site closet to delight and honour us with your presence.
359

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:17:09
421

Thats disappointing I thought you were being cleverly subtle.
360

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:20:05
420

No just trying to work out the odds of both of em being Homosexuals.
361

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 19:20:52
422
Subtle?

AM2 isn't gay.

He can be quite morose at times.

Usually after Scottish elections.
362

GM,

26/09/2008 19:21:55
@409...

ah yes, that petty wee blog of yours full of choice cuts of anti SNP propanda, and full of 'balanced' extracts from pro-independence contributors.


You would easily have gotten a job in a certain political party's propaganda unit during a certain period of history, oooo about 70 years ago.

Your blog makes this paper's political persuasion appear to be the very essence of balanced journalism.

I for one am glad to see that you retreated into your own controlled environment, because, when the gloves are off on these open forums, you had your ars e kicked more times than I can remember.

Good luck with the blog though - its a brilliant advertisement for all that is wrong with the union.


oh, one more thing, the level of moderation fell off remarkably when you decided to call it a day.... funny that.
363

brownlie,

26/09/2008 19:22:45
422 parcel

Certainly not - I am congenitally incapable of being subtle.
364

brownlie,

26/09/2008 19:25:52
427 Melanthios

Welcome, you'll be glad to get out of the closet - no offense, malice or sexual innuendo intended.
365

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 19:26:13
424
Evening Me***

Better hope nobody makes a third wish...
366

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:27:25
409

Strange for an Irish unionist to start a blog called Scottish unionist. Not a personal reference then? Scottish new labour reference perhaps?
367

brownlie,

26/09/2008 19:31:03
433 Dave

Am bheil an deoch oirt?
368

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 19:33:19
427
Gasp! You mean...

http://tinyurl.com/45b2qp

?
369

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:34:36
428

Shame it looked really clever and subtle.
370

Darien,

Panama 26/09/2008 19:36:45
#353 Westview: Aside from the Swiss success and power/reputation, another excellent example is Norway, which also has a strong national bank and a healthy stock market (see below). Scotland has a lot of work to do come Independence Day to emulate the success of these and other nations. But that is a challenge well worth the effort as the alternative (i.e. a financially bust Britain in socio-economic freefall) is no longer a serious option. Rebuilding the Scots economy will be one of the most exciting and fulfilling aspects of Independence. The opportunities for the Scots people in an Independent Scotland will be immense. The alternative offers nothing by comparison.

Norges Bank is Norway’s central bank. The Bank shall promote economic stability in Norway. Norges Bank has executive and advisory responsibilities in the area of monetary policy and is responsible for promoting robust and efficient payment systems and financial markets. Norges Bank manages Norway’s foreign exchange reserves and the Government Pension Fund – Global.
http://www.norges-bank.no/templates/section____11339.aspx


Oslo Børs ASA was founded in 1819 and offers the only regulated markets for securities trading in Norway today. The marketplace Oslo Børs is constantly bringing domestic and international investors together with world class issuers in a fully regulated environment. Investor protection and market surveillance combined with attractive products are at the heart of our dedication to offer quality markets to our users. Oslo Børs offers a full product range including equities, derivatives and fixed income instruments.
http://www.oslobors.no/ob

371

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/09/2008 19:40:47
Listen up, folks. Gray is going on about the effect of LIT.

Broon is trying to fudge over his incompetence as chancellor by posturing on the world stage.

The below is direct from AOL;

"Gordon Brown has demanded an end to "the age of irresponsibility" in the financial sector ahead of emergency talks with US President George Bush.
At the end of a visit to the United Nations in New York, the Prime Minister is taking an unscheduled trip to the White House in response to the global crisis.
In an address to the UN General Assembly, Mr Brown demanded international action to rebuild financial systems to achieve long-term stability.
"Confidence in the future is needed to build confidence today," he said.


"And that confidence will be built by showing that what are global problems can also be addressed by globally co-ordinated solutions."
Setting out again his proposed reforms, he added: "This has been an era of global prosperity.
"It has been an era also of global turbulence, and where there has been irresponsibility we must now say clearly that the age of irresponsibility must be ended."
His last-minute decision to see Mr Bush in Washington comes amid bitter and protracted wrangling over a proposed 700 billion US dollar (£380.36 billion) bail-out for ailing banks.
The President has warned the US economy would be in serious trouble without it.
In his UN speech, the Prime Minister restated his backing for the plan and called on other world leaders to follow suit."
372

karinxxx,

26/09/2008 19:52:14
conan ello.

this is funny

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7637591.stm
373

karinxxx,

26/09/2008 19:54:23
am2.



awright andy..........
374

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 26/09/2008 19:54:42
This from shout99 the freelance contractors magazine.

As the annual Labour Party conference draws to a close, one group
that will not be singing Gordon Brown's praises is the contracting
community.


A recent survey has shown that less than two per cent of UK
freelancers would vote Labour....and with an estimated 1.4 million
freelancers in the country, that could amount to hundreds of
thousands of votes at the next election.

IR35 rules ok.
375

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 19:55:08
444
Ello indeed Karin. Superb stuff.
376

karinxxx,

26/09/2008 20:02:50
whatcha been up tae conan.
377

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 20:06:15
Had my youngest (16 months) grandson to stay.

Ah'm knackered.
378

karinxxx,

26/09/2008 20:09:29
i think you should get down to glenrothes conan and volunteer for babysitting there. i am babysitterless at the moment as my babysitter has vacated to australia. It is playing havoc with my attempts to convert the hard core unionists to the snp by means of sexual favours.
379

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/09/2008 20:14:19
karin, by your comment at 451 I am led to believe that it is your babysitter who offers the sexual favours.
380

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/09/2008 20:16:33
Besides, the unionists have been shafting us for years.
381

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 20:22:05
451
I think most of the hard core Unionists would rather read the Daily Mail(by themselves, in the toilet) anyway Karin.
382

,

26/09/2008 20:22:45
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383

karinxxx,

26/09/2008 20:27:28
conan i am working on a new plan to inform the voting public about labour sleaze it involves white vans.
384

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 20:31:16
456
Ford Transits?
385

karinxxx,

26/09/2008 20:34:03
yeah you write on the ones that need washed

this is van is not as dirty as the labour party.
386

danbob,

26/09/2008 20:42:59
Why get all stressed out over this? Introduce LIT and wait to see who is right. Simple really.
387

brownlie,

26/09/2008 20:45:36
455 karinxxx

C'aite bheil an taigh agad??!!
388

vimto,

26/09/2008 20:47:21
brownlie. could you say that in english please.
389

brownlie,

26/09/2008 20:50:05
449 Hen Broon

Actually it was Broon Windsor Soup, British Bully Beef followed by Morris Dancing Melba!
390

brownlie,

26/09/2008 20:51:02
461 vimto

Nah! I'm too shy!!
391

brownlie,

26/09/2008 20:52:45
463 vimto

Actually, it means "Where do you live" or literally "Where is your house?"
392

vimto,

26/09/2008 20:52:56
brownlie. Well give me a clue then.
393

vimto,

26/09/2008 20:53:56
brownlie.Ah, say no more!
394

vimto,

26/09/2008 20:58:22
Anyway,what will be will be,night all.
395

brownlie,

26/09/2008 21:01:06
467 vimto

Que sera, sera - as we say in the Hebrides!
396

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 21:16:48
469
Off colour? So you aren't purple that's easy to shlurple?
397

brownlie,

26/09/2008 21:25:16
Karinxxx

I fancy AM2 (not in that way!) will be a hard nut to crack!
398

Hubert Farnsworth,

26/09/2008 21:28:39
This new security system has gone berserk...I killed myself off months ago.
399

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 21:30:15
474
Were you on a bender?
400

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 21:33:28
Scotland is going through a very embarrassing political period at the moment because of Alex Salmond.

But it will not last forever, thankfully!

401

Hubert Farnsworth,

26/09/2008 21:34:33
#472 Me­lanthios,

Calm yourself down feller - watch this.

http://tinyurl.com/46upeq
402

Hubert Farnsworth,

26/09/2008 21:34:33
#472 Me­lanthios,

Calm yourself down feller - watch this.

http://tinyurl.com/46upeq
403

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 21:35:04
477
You could make a fortune in the East end of London then.
404

brownlie,

26/09/2008 21:43:00
478 Media 1

If you had bought shares in HBOS for £1000 a year ago earlier this week your shares would have been worth £16.50. If you'd bought shares in Northern Rock for £1000 a year ago your shares would now be worth £4.95. If you'd bought shares in XL Leisure for £1000 a year ago your shares would be worth less than £5 now.

However if you'd spent your money on £1000 worth of cans of Tennents Lager, drank the lot and took the cans back to an aluminium recycling plant you'd have got £214 back.

It pays to invest in Scotland!
405

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 21:51:41
brownlie

Salmond is attempting to score brownie points on the back of an international financial crisis that has happened in the past and will happen again in the future.
Isn't Salmond a failed economist who became a freedom fighter? lol
Ok jokes aside, the man is a liability for Scotland and the sooner he leaves office the better. His supporters are fanatical about him, hence why he can do no wrong. A dangerous cocktail of political brainwashing based on anti English rhetoric and passionately written fantasy is what Scotland now faces.
Scotland is free already! No need to liberate her!
406

brownlie,

26/09/2008 21:53:39
485 Media 1

lol??? If you're laughing at yourself, you are not alone!
407

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 21:54:13
484
brownlie

You would have to drink Tennant's lager?

Could I not invest in Vlaams Gewest independence instead?

408

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 21:59:14
brownlie

Och you know how it goes, when it comes to Salmond and the SNP you need to laugh or you will die crying..
Freedom fighting movements like the SNP dont work in any country, especially one that is already free.
409

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 26/09/2008 22:02:14
media 1 @485 Typical of some unionists by implying Scottish nationalists are anti English.



410

Davie from Irvine,

26/09/2008 22:03:44
488 Media 1, yes we are free to decide if we want political independence.
411

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:08:24
489 Davie

You should be aware that the expression "Thick as two short planks" was invented for Media 1.
412

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:09:47
487 Conan

I feel I have a strange a-finn-ity for it!
413

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:10:22
Media 1 (488) has a point. You read the posts on here and if you didn't know Scotland you would be forgiven for thinking it was kept in the dark ages by those nasty people south of Gretna. But walk down Argyll street in Glasgow and you see a city full of people spending money in quality shops with exactly the same standard of living as folk in say London, Manchester, Leeds etc. We have the same standard of education, schools, Hospitals, Social care, everything is the same as anywhere else in the UK. So in which area is Scotland oppressed?
414

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:10:29
Davie

Cmon, for goodness sake. You can pull the wool over the eyes of some foreigners but you cannot fool a Scot. We all know the score when it comes to England, hence the reason the nationalists embrace that torrid and utterly embarrassing song about "sending them home tae think again"
This is what it is all about and it has never been about anything else.
Sure you can pretend that independence is all about Scotland, but it isnt.
You choose to see Scotland as some little slave of England as opposed to the proud and important union partner that she is.
Scotland is nobodies little dog, best you remember that!
415

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:16:51
All this talk about freedom is shocking.
Scotland and her people are more free than most people around the world. Scotland and her people have freedom of speech, freedom of movement and freedom of expression..Scotland and her people have great shops, tremendous cities, wonderful roads, excellent opportunities and an abundance of money. The quality of life is tremendous by comparison to what it was 10 to 20 years ago.
People are not living in fear or dying at the hands of some oppressor, SCOTLAND IS FREE no matter what the freedom fighting nutters tell us.
416

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:17:19
49 danbob

Funny you should post regarding "being kept in the dark ages" a poster on here yesterday stated "Be realistic you will never get your freedom from England.

If you take in just about any direction from the city centre you will see areas of dereliction, desolation and desperation housing people with no hope or prospects.
417

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:18:36
497

Should read "If you take a bus in any ...."
418

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:19:58
496 Media 1

"Wonderful roads" - have you been in Scotland since the Roman left?
419

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 22:23:50
500?
420

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:23:59
Brownlie 497# Dereliction is not confined to Scotland though is it. Been to the east end of London of late, or Manchester's Moss side?
421

saltire.1,

Moray 26/09/2008 22:24:06
Media 1
you say scotland had wonderful roads.
have you ever been north of glasgow
422

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 22:24:48
Yah boo sucks Me...l
423

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:25:24
brownlie

It tells me a lot that of all the things I mentioned you could only grab onto the part about the roads.
And yes they are wonderful when you compare then to most other nations.

ps; I live in Scotland a few months of the year every year, so I know fine well how tremendous that country is.
424

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:28:08
501 Danbob

Yes, exactly, perhaps if we did not spend millions on illegal invasions, weapons of mass destruction etc etc. which will never be used then that money could be spent on these deprived areas.

Incidentally, the SNP are opposed to illegal invasions, wmd etc etc.
425

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:29:38
What's wrong with the roads north of Glasgow compared to the rest of the UK?
426

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:29:57
505 media 1

On your visits to England did you notice any single-track roads connecting any of their major cities?
427

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:31:09
Scotland is a tremendously exciting and utterly amazing country! Scotland is diverse, Scotland is beautiful, Scotland and her people are wealthy, life is good, jobs are plentiful and people are blessed with some of the finest and most protected freedoms on the planet - Scotland is so much more than some silly little pathetic non entity who sent them 'home tae think again"
"Proud Edwards Army" ??? What is that nonsense?

Wake up for goodness sake.
428

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 22:31:29
501
danbob

The East end of London that had a huge amount of money spent on it re the Millenium Dome?

And how much is being spent on the Olympics?
429

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:31:31
So am I Brownlie 506#. And so is a very large percentage of England.
430

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:32:30
Brownlie

As I said, the fact that I mentioned 10 items and all you had was "roads" tells me all I need to know...
431

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:32:49
505 Media 1

If you know fine well how tremendous this country is can you imagine how tremendous it could be if our tax-payers did not have to support things, already mentioned, that they have no wish to support.
432

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:33:18
510# Agree with you there Conan. But please remember that the dome annoyed a great number of English people as well.
433

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:35:06
511 danbob

Well, at least Scotland appears to be trying to do something about it and if the large majority of England feel the same then they can do something about it.
434

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:38:10
512 Media 1

I used that as a "for instance" as I could not be bothered having a longer conversation with you. Your comment "Wake up for goodness sake" is probably one you use a lot!
435

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:38:46
508# Oh come on Scotland has no single track roads connecting major cities. In fact the M74 for starters is easily one of the best motorways on the network. I know we have issues with roads like the A9 and the M8 but in general the roads are good in relation to the amount of traffic using them.
436

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:39:04
brownlie

SUPPORT? Are you for real? You sound as if Scotland is supporting the rest of the UK and getting nothing in return.

California is the worlds 5th largest economy but her people are not screaming for "F R E E D O M" Some of the states contribute more than others, and whilst some states can do some things, they cant do all things, they all feed off each other and it works.

The union also works!
437

Media 1,

cape town 26/09/2008 22:42:40
Anyway, enough for tonight! When I come back tomorrow Salmond will still be a freedom fighter in one of the most free nations on the planet and Scotland will still be part of THE UNION!
438

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:43:42
515# I think it would be better if the UK did something about it. The problem lies with politicians of all parties who will lie and cheat to get what they want. For the UK to split over politicians is absolutly tragic.
439

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:45:57
517 danbob

Tell me about the issues regarding the A9 which connects Perth to Inverness and the amount of traffic that uses it?

Contrast that with the road, for instance, that connects Luton to Northampton - two similar sized towns.
440

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:47:01
Media 1# Try discusing issues instead of preaching at people. your post at 519# smacks of a child determined to get in the last word.
441

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:47:30
518 media 1

Of course, I'm not for real. I'm a product of your over-heated imagination.
442

brownlie,

26/09/2008 22:54:08
522 danbob

At the risk of sounding like one of the Waltons - Goodnight, danbob!
443

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:57:02
521# Northampton and Luton is connected by the M1 which is horrendous at anytime. Perth and Inverness I will admit has a case for dueling. Very frustrating behind a line of lorrys. I will admit in the summer it reminds me a bit of the A30 in Cornwall.
444

danbob,

26/09/2008 22:58:01
524# Goodnight Mary Ellen.
445

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 22:59:51
519
Hmm. If you are the real Media 1, where do you live in Scotland?
446

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 23:05:12
529
Evening Col.Indeed.

But he has to answer "which" colonies;-)
447

Hubert Farnsworth,

26/09/2008 23:16:24
Conan the Librarian™,

Your pal McPravda/Ford etc is monitering this thread.
448

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 23:21:50
531
I'm sure he is.

Bless.
449

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 26/09/2008 23:25:35
Media

Your California analogy is fatally flawed. California has little cultural identity. It comprises people from all over the US and the world as the indigeneous population was overrun. This is unlike Scotland and South Africa. Eventually. There are plenty Pictish and Bantu origins remaining in these two countries.

Strangely enough, in spite of Scottish Devolution, California still retains more powers as a state in a federation.

Scotland is indeed a wonderful country, but one which is not allowed to stand on it's own two feet. It is still largely governed by London, and as a result, much of the important parts of government are too remote to be accountable to the Scottish people. For example, local council services in Aberdeen are mostly paid for in the form of a block grant from the Scottish Government, who in turn have to rely on a block grant from Westminster.

Complicated, distant and unaccountable.
450

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 23:31:50
534
Col.
See what you mean.

Booze, drugs or insanity?
451

Conan the Librarian™,

26/09/2008 23:45:12
536
A mad scientist, drunk on...er...not power...

 

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