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Salmond's adviser warns on going solo



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Published Date: 19 October 2008
AN INDEPENDENT Scottish economy would be "awful" in the present financial climate, one of Alex Salmond's key economic advisers said last night.

In an embarrassing blow to the First Minister, Professor John Kay said Gordon Brown deserved credit for his handling of the financial crisis and said the Scottish economy was more at risk from the global downturn than the UK as a whole.

Kay, a member of the First Minister's Council of Economic Advisers, criticised the SNP's vision of an independent nation, saying he was not interested in "flag-waving, embassies and armies".

He suggested independence should be considered a "long-term" goal.

The SNP's reliance on revenue from North Sea oil, for so long the key component of the SNP's economic plan for independence, was also questioned by Kay, who expressed concern about falling fuel prices.

Kay, a fellow of St John's College, Oxford, and a visiting professor at the London School of Economics, is a member of an 11-strong team of eminent economists and business figures set up last year to advise Salmond on how to tackle Scotland's "systemic economic mediocrity".

He said: "If Scotland was independent at the moment, its finances would look pretty awful, but basically the UK's public finances now look terrible, and if you do boil down to the Scottish element of it, that looks worse.

"Getting on for half of corporation tax revenue has come from the financial services sector, and in Scotland the proportion is probably even larger. We can argue about what share of the oil revenue Scotland should get, but oil prices have fallen and I would expect that to continue."

Although members of the council do not necessarily share Salmond's political views, they tend to be broadly sympathetic to independence.

In the past, Kay has argued that separatism would make Scotland responsible for its economic destiny.

On the eve of Salmond's speech to the SNP Conference in Perth, Kay acknowledged that the UK Government was "taking and getting credit" and added: "I think that credit is justified."

On the break-up of the United Kingdom, Kay said he agreed that Scotland should have more self-government but suggested the economic situation meant that independence should be seen as a long-term ambition.

"As far as independence is concerned, I think we have to look at that much longer term and make arrangements so that Scotland has a more dynamic economy and Scots take responsibility for their own actions and stop moaning all the time," he said.

An SNP spokesman said: "The reality – as John Kay has said – is that the UK's finances are dire and deteriorating, with a deficit of £57bn and rising.

"The average oil price this year has been over $110 a barrel – which means that the UK Treasury is set to collect several billion more in Scottish oil revenues than the £10bn forecast at the time of the Budget."


The full article contains 491 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 October 2008 9:25 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

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19/10/2008 00:00:45
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19/10/2008 00:04:30
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Fifi la Bonbon,

19/10/2008 00:11:34
Ah, dear. That's Professor Kay off the Bute House christmas card list, then.

It will be interesting to see the levels of abuse the cybernats descend top. I see Neil Waugh is off to a flying start.
4

Selgovae,

19/10/2008 00:14:07
""As far as independence is concerned, I think we have to look at that much longer term and make arrangements so that Scotland has a more dynamic economy and Scots take responsibility for their own actions and stop moaning all the time,"

What a patronizing twit. And how long should we wait? It wouldn't be until the oil runs out, would it? I think we all know the economy's going to be awful for a while, either within the UK or not. The sooner we have independence, the more oil revenues we have to do some of the restructuring we badly need.
5

subrosa,

19/10/2008 00:22:30
Surely most Scots understand the state of the Uk economy without the need for a professor to spell it out.

I note the professor didn't mention Gordon Brown has been at the helm of the treasury for the past 11 years.
6

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 00:31:04
Kay is employed by the Scottish Government for his economics expertise not his political opinions.

Scotland needs an independent voice in the EU and UN because we are outvoted by a factor of 11-1 at Westminster in the crucial areas of defence, foreign affairs, broadcasting etc. That is the basic argument for independence and it remains true in any economic climate.
7

Mercian,

19/10/2008 00:53:59
"As far as independence is concerned, I think we have to look at that much longer term and make arrangements so that Scotland has a more dynamic economy and Scots take responsibility for their own actions and stop moaning all the time," he said.

Yes, yes, pleassse stop moaning. Relax, watch Strictly Come Dancing through to the final and then see how you feel.
8

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19/10/2008 00:57:47
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A Scott,

Glasgow 19/10/2008 01:05:02
Fi Fi la Bon Bon.AKA Amanda Hugankis(stupid name)..Usual Anti Scottish Unionist mince. Why is it that the Unionistas get all exited and wet their pants, at the mere thought of the "Arc of Insolvency"
Although to be honest I think that the Media and BBC "Scotland" mince about Broon being "MR Wonderful" has been seen through by now....
10

Steve,

Bo'ness 19/10/2008 01:07:40
This chap wasn't hired to give his opinions on independence, now or in the future. Other countries are surviving the credit crunch, are we to beleive Scotland wouldn't just because it's Scotland? Norway's economy is heavily dependant on oil, and they seem to be coping with a global downturn.
Mind you, they dont need to blow billions on nuclear weapons, wars, olympics, blah blah. He clearly isn't an SNP supporter, which maybe explains his haste to speak to Scotland on Sunday.
11

Richardinho,

19/10/2008 01:11:16
#10 Agreed-Who the heck are these folk who think Gordon Brown is doing a wonderful job? Not the voters anyway; The latest opinion poll has him 9 points behind the Conservatives across the UK. Looks to me as if the media got bored with giving him a kicking and decided to start building him up again. I don't quite understand how anyone can tell that the bailout of the last week is so brilliant since it'll surely take a lot longer till we see the full effects.
12

Joe wolson,

Glasgow 19/10/2008 01:36:10
Aye the man's a traitor and a fool. What Scotland needs is to reduce per capita public spending to the level of our friends in Ireland.

Now that's something I am sure all left leaning SNP supporters can agree with.

13

brian mcc,

19/10/2008 02:23:38
*Please enter your comment*
14

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 19/10/2008 02:32:22
Here we go again, another skewed article designed to provoke a blog board full of bad commentary how surprising for SOS to engage in such things!

Lets all just stop and take a deep breath. Kay is just one of Salmonds advisors the fact that he has some contarary views to Salmonds view is healthy, it does not show that Salmond is weak or incompetent it shows that he is (ahem) broad and open to other voices. You would NEVER have a contararian advising a labour government, NEVER. What is a better position - listening to all voices or only the ones you want to hear? (indeed, what is the nature of 'advice'?)

Saying that Kay's arguments are a little weak. Scotland's relative position to the rest of the UK in this big mess may be weaker because proportionally financial services are a bigger proportion - however what he is does not take on board is that in an Independent Scotland the regulator would have had a tighter grip than the architect of the present mess - Gordon Brown.

He argues that the Scottish economy has to narrow a focus, I would have thought that this was an argument for stimilating other sectors, the fact that this has been neglected is not a critisism of the SNP but the powers that be - Westminister, you can't really spin this back on the SNP and say it is a weakness in their argument. An independent Scotland's first focus would be developing our economy, not proping up the dodgy and discredited 'City'.

Lastly , the nail in the coffin for me, Kay warns about falling oil prices. Locally here the price of oil is about 20% higher than it was year ago, I'm sure it is the same in Scotland. Treasury's make long term projections and the price of oil is above the current UK Treasury estimate (not a falling by any measure). Does Kay need to go back to his freshman semester at Uni himself? - supply and demand dictate price. Supply is falling, demand is growning exponentially, driven by the emerging middle classes of two massive markets - India and
15

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 19/10/2008 03:15:07
Amazing how the Gnats turn on one of their own when he DARES to step ootside the orthodoxy!

How well they deserve the name of the Tartan Taliban.
16

paulgacus,

Dunfermline 19/10/2008 03:22:52
The Tartan taliban? makes a change from Tartan tories i guess.
17

paulgacus,

19/10/2008 03:28:24
Mind you it would make a change if we could drop the Tartan epithet.Those who want independence are thinking long term in my view and while our financial sector will always be susceptible to fluctuations in the global economy, we might run our institutions a little better. we certainly couldnt have done worse.
18

Kenny's Conscience,

Thurso 19/10/2008 03:59:35
"Kay, a fellow of St John's College, Oxford, and a visiting professor at the London School of Economics, is a member of an 11-strong team of eminent economists and business figures set up last year to advise Salmond on how to tackle Scotland's "systemic economic mediocrity".

What did the other 10 have to say?
19

jimbob82,

calagary 19/10/2008 05:37:38
I am 57 years old, have lived in three countries, but still believe myself 100% Scots. I'm a professional and consider myself aware. I have not been caught out by the latest economic failures. To see a smug Gordon Brown identifying his economic failures as a basis for indicating the death of Scottish nationalism is the depth of hypocracy and very, very premature. The costs of his incompetance will be at minimum a devaluation of the pound and a deep recession. The economy was not a devolved matter. It is a UK failure. The banks that have been bailed out is a UK failure. The appropriate approach to the Scottish bank issues is to roll out the Scottish banks into separate operations and ownership and recapitalize. The approach by G BROWN is 100% political. Scotland will,within the UK, be absorbed, assimulated further, with its culture becoming even more of a caricature. Life is too short. My generation had to leave the UK to achieve anything, the next generation of Scots has a hope, a hope not to fight illegitimate wars, not to sustain the London establishment, actually improve Scottish standards of living and yes it would be nice to see less Quislings in the Scottish middle class, because that is where change will come from.
20

Conan,

Travelling in S. Amercia (again) 19/10/2008 06:19:09
Look folks, the sovereign independence of Scotland cannot be subject to various states of play of the financial sector. While i do enjoy my wealth and assets, and do enjoy what that allows me, honestly - I would be willing to loose at least half of it if I could live and die in an independent Scotland and pass than nation on to my kids and grand kids and all that would follow. I do feel that President Rossevelt in the US put it best a long time ago when he said that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. If we are to be bound by our fears, then we are nothing and deservcxe nothing. But, nothwithstanding the sad state of our national self respect these days - we can, should and will be independent of our English financial overlords some day. Make it soon.
21

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 19/10/2008 06:20:25
It is grim that one of former British colonies and the trigger for the world economic ills (USA) is ahead of the UK on the above list.
22

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA for more WAR VOTE McCain 19/10/2008 06:20:44
21
jimbob82,
calagary

Dude U are one of the masses who abandon their country .
Usual reason, the abandoner could not hack it in their homeland ..

Real Scots stay in Scotland they don't abandon their country.

Chill dude

GC
23

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA for more WAR VOTE McCain 19/10/2008 06:29:37
Dudes looks like the SNP have a similar mind set to our GOP here in the US.

(GOP) = (Grand Old Party)

The GOP supporters are FPRN's and the SNP supporters are FPSD's.

Neither group can recognize reality even when it stares them in their eyeballs.

FPSD's = Fanatical Polarized Red Necks.

FPSD's = Fanatical Polarized Scottish Dreamers.

DON'T PANIC dudes. The Dream never dies , And reality keeps it a dream.

Relax
and chill

GC
24

donald,

glasgow 19/10/2008 07:00:14
Send him to Ben Dover Hoose, London, England.
25

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 08:17:28
There is nothing new in Prof. Kay's comments. Many have pointed out that Scotland is far too dependent on high levels of govt spending and has a public sector which is too dominant.

Some have argued that this can be covered by North sea revenues but North Sea oil production is decreasing and the price, as we have seen, is very volatile. Other aspects of the economy need to be strengthened. if Scotland is to consider independence.
26

Red Tower,

Dunoon 19/10/2008 08:22:11
I am not particularly enthusiastic about an independent Scotland but I'll continue to vote SNP.(I dont think the majority of Scots will ever vote for independence.) The reason? It is the party most likely to screw the best deal for Scotland within a UK framework.
27

TWC,

Ayrshire 19/10/2008 08:37:33
This guy is already set in his opinion. Scotland with control of its finances (independent or not ) would have different priorities and therefore its economy would be different from the UK.
This paper every week goes seeking negative quotes and stories to print that are anti SNP.
BTW I'm not a Nat but I do want Fiscal Independence and the end of New Labour.
28

!Ya basta!,

19/10/2008 08:43:28
#28 George

First reasonable comments on this blog, I beleive in Scottish independence too but the rantings of various hyper-reactionary nats above make me nervous about it.

As you point out George, all Prof. Kay is saying is that for our economy to be viable in case of independence it needs to be restrcutured. And he's right, the public sector is too big to be sustainable and the finance sector dominates the private sector. Ireland is in a real mess now because of structural weaknesses (I hope they don't have the nerve to ask the EU to help them out). I don't see whats heresy about Kays opinion.

29

Gtj,

19/10/2008 08:49:19
Yaawwnnnn. Another signature Scotsman story.

The Scotsman has the feeling of King Canute about it.
30

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 19/10/2008 08:56:29
The First Mumper should not believe Kay. After all, he agree that reduced class sizes, a thousand additional police officers, a long term Council Tax freeze, the elimination of student debt etc etc etc were all possible and affordable. The First Mumper should sack Kay forthwith. He cannot trust "qualified economists" such as Kay.
31

jdships,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 09:23:30
Interesting that the SNP can so quickly turn on one of their own when he DARES to say something they don't want to hear.
"None so blind as those who cannot see " comes to mind !!
32

TWC,

Ayrshire 19/10/2008 09:28:42
I'm not SNP, just not New Labour and therefore I want Scotland to control its finances.
Read Marc Coleman's article or Ian Bell in the H***** newspaper. They are less biased articles.
33

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 09:42:40
#21 jimbo82

It would appear one of the Qusilings amongst us is you. You're the one who abandoned your country to become one of the hordes of Plastic Jocks who like to lecture the rest of us on our patriotic duty. You're sort is such an irritant, you've even got me agreeing with that Californian zoomer, the Galactic Cannibal.
34

Boab,

Glasgow 19/10/2008 09:43:09
Gordon Brown's plan for an 'arc of greed' including Wall Street, London and Tokyo have been shown by recent events to be an 'arc of need', with Scots taxpayers forced to bail out whining London politicians.

I for one hope Westminster gets its independence and stops sponging - not that they could make it without us.
35

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 19/10/2008 09:44:00
Diehard English Unionists hold one of three views of Scotland - Scotland the Feckless, Scotland the Romantic and Scotland the Threat. All three are negative stereotypes, designed to perpetuate Scotland's subjection in the Union. But many clearer-sighted English people see Scotland the Admirable - a country that cares for its people and reflects this in its social policies, a country that is resolutely anti-nuclear and anti-war - a country with a continuously evolving democracy where the rights of the citizen are paramount, and where the government is truly responsive to the needs and wishes of its people.

England's view of Scotland is distorted by the Union, and by the contemptible, self-serving arguments of its power brokers. When Scotland is independent, England will at last see its small neighbour clearly for the first time in centuries - and it will like what it sees. In the process, England will gain a new perception of itself, a new resolve to rebuild its democracy, and it will rediscover its true identity and purpose in the community of nations.

When that day comes, the Scottish unionists will have to find a home for themselves, to escape the alienation they will undoubtedly feel. But they can take heart - they will still be welcome in their own land, prodigals returned in a chastened mood, their lack of vision and faith in their own people forgiven and forgotten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giUZYyxKE0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
36

Ugly George,

19/10/2008 09:48:58
33 Patrick
"The First Mumper should sack Kay forthwith".

What is the point in hiring an expert economist as an adviser if you then sack him just because his advice does not conform to your predetermined policy.

Are you saying that all advisers have to be yes-men?
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19/10/2008 09:49:18
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19/10/2008 09:52:22
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Eric D,

renfrew 19/10/2008 09:52:57
As long as the economy is dependent on services there will be no improvement in economic performance. The only solution is to boost engineering . science and manufacturing.
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Stuart W,

Dundee 19/10/2008 09:53:25
#35 TWC

Oh, aye; Marc Coleman's article is an object lesson in objectivity. NOT!!:

http://www.snp.org/node/14382
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19/10/2008 09:55:34
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eric,

19/10/2008 09:57:33
DONT SEE IRELAND SCREAMING BACK INTO THIS AWFUL UNION.MMM
43

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 09:58:24
35 TWC
"Read Marc Coleman's article"

Marc Coleman was referring to the situation in Ireland but comparisons withy other countries are facile unless you look at the whole picture - not just the parts that suit your argument. Ireland developed a successful economy in the nineties by pursuing a policy of low govt spending. This, together eith gig EU grants at that time, allowed it to set low rates of taxation including low rates of corporate tax.

But one has to look at the other side of the coin. Ireland can afford low taxation because it spends less on public services - only 30% of the population can vist a GP without having to pay and the charge for going to Accident and Emergency at a hospital has just been raised to 100 euros. Would those policies be politically acceptable here?
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19/10/2008 09:58:55
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It's me!,

19/10/2008 10:05:23
Why is Gordon Brown getting all the credit for the "repair" to the economic crisis. He didn't think it up by himself. It is based on a Swedish model they thought up in the 1990's when they had similar problems. It is more likely an anonymous Westminster civil servant recalled the Swedish situation and put it forward to his bosses.

And why did our Secretary of State for Scotland chicken out of an invitation to discuss his comments on Irish radio regarding his comments on the "Arc of Insolvency"? Could it be this comment is just a sound bite and the truth is the Irish economy is in far greater shape than the UK's. Increased by 90% but dropped recently by just 4%. Hardly insolvency and you don't need to be a professor to work that out.

Maybe the professor has been got at.
46

TWC,

Ayrshire 19/10/2008 10:07:20
#43.
Ireland will be fine. I don't care whwther Scotland votes for Independence or not but I do want Fiscal Autonomy.
We should collect all our own money and decide where to spend it. If Independence is the only way then that's what I'll vote for.
I have complete faith in Scotlands ability to flourish.
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19/10/2008 10:12:44
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The Strategist,

19/10/2008 10:12:49
John Kay is just another populist economist who loves to see his name on the front page. I've never taken him seriously and recommend nobody else does either.
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Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 10:13:44
48 It's me
"Maybe the professor has been got at."

Not yet another claim of a conspiracy I hope.
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19/10/2008 10:15:26
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19/10/2008 10:19:39
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Finnzz,

19/10/2008 10:20:57
It would only be 'awful' if it continued to be hamstrung by a Westminster Parliament that sees Scotland only as a cash and MP cow for the Labour Party.

Browns model of fiscal prudence has now been adjudged an abject failure and his deliberate policy of ensuring Scotlands high dependancy on the public sector and welfare to perpetuate the Labour powerbase in both countries needs to be publicised. So its no wonder that Scotland is more at risk to the present global downturn.

The truth is, of course, that an independant Scotland can and will reshape its economy into a model of stability and growth.
But then this would expose the lie that is the Union.
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eric,

19/10/2008 10:20:58
47 truth hurts eh.
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eric,

19/10/2008 10:21:16
end.
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19/10/2008 10:22:19
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19/10/2008 10:22:45
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TWC,

Ayrshire 19/10/2008 10:23:28
#53.
If they are our dodgers and malingerers then we should finance them. We should do it with the money this country collects.
You don't have to be an SNP supporter to be proud of Scots.
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Central Station,

19/10/2008 10:24:50
It is all falling apart for Salmond and the separatist cause. Even with a booming economy it would still be a no more than a long shot that we would opt for independence.

As the stakes are made clear to the people there is no chance of the smug one winning any referendum. In fact I would go as far as to predict that the Holyrood Government will now try to avoid taking the question to the electorate in 2010. My guess is that they will use the excuse of the ballot paper wording, as a simple yes or no to independence is a vote they can't win.

If by some miracle they are shamed to the ballot box, or the unionist parties call their bluff the nationalist cause will surely be silenced for a generation and Salmond if honourable would have to go.
59

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 10:25:07
At the present time, this is probably good advice from an expert well versed on the ups and downs of economies.

However, economics and politics are two different things and anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that the gradualist approach of the Nationalists is working very well to their advantage.

The predeccesor of the SNP was only founded a short 74 years ago at the height of Empire, and Unionists never took the Nationalists seriously, sneering at their ultimate objective. They do now!
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Finnzz,

19/10/2008 10:26:05
#53

"Would fiscal autonomy provide the means to pay for thousands of cant work\wont work malingerers and moaners on Unemployment and Disability benefit? "

The vast majority of whom have always voted Labour.

So obviously no incentive for Labour to actually do anything, is there.
61

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 19/10/2008 10:29:04
#18 "We couldn't have done worse" Really??? You hear about Iceland? Or is that the fault of the English too... eejits!
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19/10/2008 10:29:55
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Central Station,

19/10/2008 10:30:39
#20

Given the two Scottish based banks were required to be baled out by H M Government I am scared to think where we would be on that list.

Also, a bit concerning for the Germans that Iceland are above them?
64

Ugly George,

19/10/2008 10:30:40
62 Lachie
"gradualist approach of the Nationalists is working very well to their advantage."

Going for a referendum in 2010 can hardly be describes as a "gradualist" approach.

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19/10/2008 10:32:28
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19/10/2008 10:35:19
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bonhommedubois,

Glasgow 19/10/2008 10:36:10
"Come the revolution, you'll be first against the wall." so the saying goes. Why is it that I continually leave these boards with a feeling of distaste and disgust at the hatred and bile from SNP supporters?

Healthy political debate is essential for all democracies, but when it strays into vitriol and blind hatred it makes me sick in my stomach as to the type of people who support an independent Scotland.

We are all Scots together, we all live in, work in and enjoy our country. Is it not possible for us to work out our differences without the type of extremist views more akin to Islamic fundamentalists, facist parties in the 1930's and other unforgiving regimes?

This Professor was invited by Salmond himself to sit on Salmond's Council. He is clearly a bright man and one who's views count. Rather than lambast him (he has no right to talk politics, he is a Quisling) would it not be better to consider/discuss whether his views have merit, and WHY has he changed his tune?

The fact that it is embarrassing for Salmond is a side issue - and blind allegiance and red blooded Mel Gibson style cries for 'Freedoooom!' hardly seem like a considered response.

If abuse and nastiness is the response I get to this - don't be surprised if I'm not surprised.

Independent or not, there is plenty to be done to sort out today's Scotland - and independent or not, we ALL love our country.
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19/10/2008 10:36:37
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Trix,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 10:41:45
Lets just face facts. There is no way that an indep scotland would be any good. Salmond is all for cheap shots. Quick giveaways, with no idea about how to pay for them. He keeps going on about Oil. But there is no OIL fund and the cost of the stuff is falling. Scotland gets more out of the Barnett formula then it should. And the villans here are SCOTTISH banks.

Go back to your caves guys,.
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19/10/2008 10:46:12
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Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 19/10/2008 10:48:00
#71
What an idiot! A Bampot! A raving maroon, loon, hied in a spitoon...... How DARE you complain about bile and vitriol.... how patronizing, how bloody insulting.. Who the hang dae you think you ARE?

If the Gnats want to spend ALL their time chewing on feces and then spitting it any anyone that claims to be Scottish and dares to disagree with them, then that's EXACTLY what they will do.

So keep your common sense, tollerance and civility to yourself and stop showing yourself up on these august (or is it disgust) pages...

72

Wee Fred,

19/10/2008 10:48:23
Isnt it wonderful how these nats can type whilst their head is buried in sand.

Truly incredible feat.

Can you check if theres any oil down there while you are at it?
73

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 19/10/2008 10:49:58
;-)
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Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 19/10/2008 10:51:51
#72

and with you Pax, and with you. :-)
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Finnzz,

19/10/2008 10:54:02
#70 Pure drivel Pax

You really need to get out a bit more. Your naivity regarding facts demonstrates an inability to think independantly (with a small 'i')

You also appear to have a fixation with Mel Gibson.
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Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 19/10/2008 10:54:29
Scotlands finances are so bad due to the so called Union dividend, er Norway and Finland comparable countries they seem to be doing ok considering the economic climate. Its plain to see the guy is a Unionist but doesn't really just come out and say it. Maybe it's because his arguments don't stack up
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19/10/2008 10:54:59
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n/,

glenboggle 19/10/2008 10:55:30



What now Alex; sack the messenger and march on London?
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19/10/2008 10:55:54
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watcher,

edinburgh 19/10/2008 11:12:19
He should have advised him on the economic costings in his election Manifesto.
Might not be in the trouble that lies ahead.
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subrosa,

19/10/2008 11:29:09
# 71
'Come the revolution, you'll be first against the wall." so the saying goes. Why is it that I continually leave these boards with a feeling of distaste and disgust at the hatred and bile from SNP supporters?'

I find that comment offensive. At no time have I ever posted hatred and bile towards anyone on these forums. The reason is I have no need to do so as I feel no hatred towards anyone.

Whilst I agree with you about the professor, I'm still pondering his reason for talking to the SoS in this manner.

It's my view that Alex Salmond won't be embarrassed in the least. He brought together 12 people who he considered were the best economic brains in Scotland. Political allegiances were not his priority.

The article is very thin on content for any serious discussion. Then perhaps that is more the responsibility of the journalist than the professor.

86

subrosa,

19/10/2008 11:34:42
# 71

I could say that I feel distaste and disgust at the unionist posters on this thread such as # 61, #66, # 68 and their many other posts.

As you only criticise SNP supporters I take it you support the unionist bile.


87

n/,

glenboggle 19/10/2008 11:35:58
#82. Just a wee update Alex. Have now polished up the claymore, donned the tartan plaid, and me and the neighbours are now fair rairin for the off. I know how busy you will be speechifying to the loyal troops in the Fair City of Perth today,however if you could just announce a time that will fit in with your schedule, and I'll away and book the tickets on Nat. Express.
88

Edward,

19/10/2008 11:38:28
Me thinks there is a mis placed quotes in this article
and also thing the Prof is being misquoted. Suggest everyone re read, but separate out the quotes, then see how the context changes
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 11:41:37
And yet another spin put out on selective segments of quotes not put into their full and proper context.
This old chestnut just doesnt wash anymore its old its tired and its just so New Liebour.

The present economic situtation is not normal for any nation and everybodies economic and financial position is not what it should be so to spin this scenario in which Scotland is already suffering while being part of the union to somehow suggest Scotland would be dead in the water had it been Independent is just disgraceful dishonest unprovable political shenanagans.
But what can anybody expect from a discredited criminal unionist organisation posing as a political party in government?
Why doesnt this party political propaganda outlet print the "statement" in its full context?
90

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 11:44:39
92 subrosa
Please tell me how post 68 could possibly be interpreted as "uniuonist bile"
91

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 11:48:34
68

"Going for a referendum in 2010 can hardly be describes as a "gradualist" approach"

Yes it can as we sit and watch New Liebour "gradually" spin, lie, steal, cheat, and sink into political oblivion in time for the referendum in 2010.
The SNP dont actually have to do anything between now and then just sit back and allow New Liebour to be New Liebour. The latest brainwave of course being to reintroduce Mandelson back into the fold.
Now theres a figure to inspire the voters.
92

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 11:49:58
96

Because Bile is all unionists have to argue with.
93

Richardinho,

19/10/2008 11:57:24
I note that there is a poll on this site asking if people think that the financial crisis has damaged the case for independence.
My answer is 'no'.

Mr Kay may be right to say that right now would not be the best time to declare independence. But that is simply to recognise that we are living in quite extraordinary times.
On the other hand, it may even be the case that now would be a better time than ever to declare independence, whilst England is weak.

Whichever is the case, no one could say that in an independent Scotland there wouldn't be down-turns as well as boom-times, but what this financial crisis has confirmed for me is how much at the mercy of decisions made 'elsewhere' Scotland really is.

Unionists like to create this meta-narrative that Scots support independence but take fright at the first sign of trouble. Well that certainly ain't me.
94

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 11:57:25
98 parcel
That is a somewhat ironic comment coming from somebody who continually posts comments containing abuse and indults. Besides the question was not addressed to you.
95

Ursus arctos horribilis,

19/10/2008 12:03:53
Unionists and Nationalists-I am afraid you are like two bald men fighting over a comb-it really doesn't matter.

The fact is that the UK and its constituent parts are totally and royally FCUKED -up shet creek without a canoe -never mind a paddle. Like it or not-you are all going down with HMS UK!

If they are able -the more intelligent should try and emigrate/ abandon ship to save themselves and leave whats left of these islands for the soon to be 70 million asylum seekers, illegal immigrants, benefit scroungers and criminals to "enjoy". It is going to get ugly.

But hey I forgot you still have The Olympics to look forward to and "Flash" Gordon Brown is a super-duper PM-I hear he is a veritable real-life economic wizard-like something out of Harry Potter!
96

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:11:12
100

Yes but I express personal bile to reflect my total disgust at creatures like you who come on here for no other reason than to express political bile about something I care deeply about. Scottish independence.
I wouldnt actually mind if you could present a honest heartfelt genuine argument for the union but you cant so all you have is bile bullsh*t lies and deceit therefore you are beneath contempt and I feel justified in calling you whatever springs to mind at the time.
97

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:12:05
101

If it doesnt matter to you then you shouldnt be living here. Why dont you move somewhere else where things do matter to you?
98

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:15:50
99

It will be changed to a yes by the end of the day to reflect the papers alliegence to the union.
99

vimto,

19/10/2008 12:17:10
At long last common sense is spoken! scotland is nothing without the UK.
100

,

19/10/2008 12:17:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

subrosa,

19/10/2008 12:18:51
# 96

Sorry George I meant # 82. So many unionist trolls here today. You'd think they'd be out celebrating how wonderful Gordon Brown is rather than pestering people who want to have a serious discussion.
102

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:20:52
106

As long as the media only reflects one side of an argument in a manner which supports that side then we will always be on the defensive.
The very fact that this union cannot generate an objective free press is a reflection on its status as an autonomous centrally controlled political dogma.
103

Ugly George,

edinburgh 19/10/2008 12:21:37
102 Parcel
If I am "beneath contempt" why do you spend so much time and effort replying to my posts.

And how can you, with one ounce of credibility, crticise anybody else for "lies and deceit" when you, in a futile attempt to justify one of your arguments claimed that oil was delivered from the North Sea to Grangemouth by truck! And waht about when you claimed that North Sea oil production was 10 x 1.6 million barrels per day.

And yet you feel you can criticise others for "bullsh*t lies and deceit"
104

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 12:22:45
107 subrosa
Thanks
105

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 12:27:35
89 Accelerator-Morning Squire!

A quick comment in reply to your post of friday. I was born and brought up in Britain and ireland and am of Scots origin. I have the right to live and vote in any part of the UK. You regard Scotland as your country,i regard Great britain and ireland as mine. I believe Countries are largely of the heart and mind. For me it is not about the economic arguments which can be 'spun' either way. Having said that i have no doubt that Scotland would be more than capable of being Independent. I would just hope that she does not become so because from MY perspective, that would represent the breaking up of my country,the United kingdom. Some Scottish nationalists find it hard to understand how many of us regard ourselves as British. My kids mother was born of a Scots mother and Anglo-Welsh father.My parents were Scots-Irish. Personal histories similar to mine are very common so surely you can uinderstand the "Britishness thing"?
All the best
106

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:28:17
109

Crude oil is delivered to the oil refinery at Grangemouth by tanker and pipeline I actually emailed them and asked did you?

"when you claimed that North Sea oil production was 10 x 1.6 million barrels per day."

Never made that claim in my life you lying little troll and the 1.6 figure is a reflection on the govt figure of 1.6 BILLION BARRELS PER YEAR TOTAL FROM ALL UK REFINERIES not 1.6 million per day from Grangemouth. so you have phuqed up yer accusation already moron.
And if you want to continue this why dont you use your usual sh*t stirring moniker Smeagal?
107

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:29:21
109

And which part of Edinburgh are you claiming yer living in Ugly? same house as Duncan no doubt?
108

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 12:31:50
I have quoted Prof John Kay in previous posts and was informed of his nationalist credentials by unionist posters. It seems that his integrity is now in tact, and will definitely quote him in future posts with a clear conscience. They can't have it both ways.
109

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:32:49
114

Just make sure you quote him in full and in context it will help to seperate you from the unionists.
110

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 12:33:31
Sorry Accelerator-I should add that the above is in reply to your comment that only Scottish residents should be part of the debate. I know there are many of the Scottish diaspora,born and descendants,both Unionist AND nationalist, who retain an interest in scotland and her future.
111

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:35:53
111

And yet you choose to live in South Africa away from "Britain" and everything "British".
112

danbob,

19/10/2008 12:39:45
Come on you Nats. Ignore the John Kays warnings and become independent. A lot down in England want this so they can watch and gloat as Alex the fat pied piper leads you into the river. I am sure a great multitude of England will take great pleasure in assisting in the destroying the scottish economy in any way they can.
113

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 12:43:29
117 sucha etc-much like Sean connery,I do visit regularly!
114

vimto,

19/10/2008 12:43:59
108.That my friend is because there is only one side,to branch onto the other side would mean suicide for scottish economy.
115

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:46:13
119

Yes but unlike Mr Connery who has pledged to live within an Independent Scotland you choose not live in a Unionist Scotland eh?
116

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:48:43
120

But not suicide for any other economy on the planet apparently. Makes you wonder why the world isnt just one big political and economic union all run from Westminstereh? and why arent you posting as Kimba anymore too embarassed?
117

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 12:51:05
118

England will be too busy adjusting back to a Dickens era without Scotland to prop it up.
What with having to deal with perpetual right wing fascist governments. Wont belong before forelock tugging becomes the norm again eh?
118

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 12:52:42
"Oil reserves in the Falklands are believed to be 50% higher than those in the North Sea"

Serious question-if a huge oil bonanza is found in the falklands,how do you think this will affect the Scottish Independence issue?
I suspect the answer from most Nationalists will be "Not at all!"-confirming my belief that it IS really a 'Heart thing" and that arguments such as the above headline wont sway many people one way or t'other.
119

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 19/10/2008 12:54:11
The only difference between Kay's opinion and Alex Salmonds (and that of many others) on Scottish Independence is the when, he is not knocking the idea as such and to accuse him of doing so based on this article would be wrong, especially as we are not given the kindness by SOS (not for the first time) of being told when, where and in what context the Prof' made these utterences.

The views of the Proff' and all the other members of this team were known before they were asked on to it as of course was Alex Salmonds, yet his views did not deter any of it's members from saying yes when they were asked to make a contribution.

Unionists would do well to remember, that several times now in the past few years, various unionist supporting organisations have stated with regard to Scottish Independemce that it is no longer a case of could we (financially), but should we.

They can decide for themselves the relative importance of the Scottish freedom hating organisations of unionism, but when you consider that one of them was The Daily Record, which can hardly be called a lover of things SNP, then even the most die-hard unionist should be prepared to admit at the very least, that there must be something in it, but then again if there assesment of this article is anything to go by, they won't.

What's that old saying again that begins, there are none so blind?

120

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 12:54:53
71 bonhommedubois, Glasgow 19/10/2008 10:36:10
"Come the revolution, you'll be first against the wall." so the saying goes. Why is it that I continually leave these boards with a feeling of distaste and disgust at the hatred and bile from SNP supporters?


Yes i know its hard to continually spout lies and mistruths but you really are scrapping the barrel here, have you read some of the posts above, so some "expert" says something because he is a unionist supporter and we all know they like to lie and spin(lie) 'whatever it takes to preserve the union for our masters' mentality but do you really think that the folk who come online reading the comments on articles fall for that gobshite. The people of Scotland have woken and dont believe the lies of a few britnat bigots anymore the time has come, its time

Not only are all you clowns who continue to slag the SNP for standing up for Scotland and are willing to work toward a better future for our children, a dwindling and increasingly rabid bunch you are actually helping the cause of nationalism keep up the good work.
121

brownlie,

19/10/2008 12:57:15
126 Geoff

Hi, Geoff,

"Oil reserves in the Falklands etc etc" seems strangely like the forecasts for the North Sea that unionists on here were ridiculing and deriding earlier this year.

Why should we believe one and not the other?
122

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 12:57:40
122 Melanthios my dyslexic friend-how the hell are you!
121-Suchaparcel-yes but he has lots of money to insulate himself against the appalling weather and also,if you will excuse the cynic in me,do you think he will live that lonG?:)
123

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:01:57
129
Me­lanthios, 19/10/2008 12:55:05 126

Geoff,

"Oil reserves in the Falklands are believed to be 50% higher than those in the North Sea"

It's the Malvinas oil!


So the real reason thatcher sent in the troops was the oil eh! and not the poor islanders
124

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 13:03:01
130 Brownlie-howsit going? On the subject of unionists ridiculing figures-well you know what there all about-how can you believe anything they say!!! Seriously though Brownlie, my question is not about point scoring. I am genuinely interested to know if the economic question is important in this debate. I suspect that many proud Scottish Nationalists(even if Scotland did not have oil) might like to live in a poor Scotland rather than a rich Britain! An old friend of mine was a fervent Nat long before North sea oil.
125

danbob,

19/10/2008 13:03:34
124# Scotland props nobody up. Just drags them down. I will give you 10 out of 10 for a vivid imagination though.
126

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:03:46
112
"Never made that claim in my life you lying little troll"
Of course you didn't. Then why did so many people post to point out your error?
127

It's me!,

19/10/2008 13:06:06
50, 52 and 54.

Would you care to comment on the two serious points I made at 48 rather than the tongue in cheek remark.

................ No? Thought not!
128

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:08:05
I think Mr kay or was it prof. cant remember, as an economist its his opinion, but independence wont be here tomorrow so by the time 2010 comes round and hopefully things will look so much better his view may just change again.

Its just human nature to be scared of change in the big bad world after years of being told we were too poor and useless to run our own affairs, the guy even supports independence just not now but as i said he could change his mind in better a economic climate.
129

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 13:08:55
132 Dude- Thatcher sent the troops into the Falklands because it would have been political suicide for her(or any British Prime Minister) not to have done so. The british public was VERY angry-especially at the sight of BRIT Marines with Argentinian boots in their backs. I dont think the oil was a factor then. As far as i know, initial exploration was much later than the war. As to the "Malvinas", well the have been peopled by Brits for over one hundred and fifty years. There was no indigenous population and the UN supports "self determination" so you wont find any Malvinistas in the falklands now,
130

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 19/10/2008 13:10:22
We need a government for national reconstruction. A Scottish Goverment to mobilise resources here. I don't see English with ideas for fixing their own country (ie an evolution in Britain) as being unsympathetic to an independent Scotland.
131

brownlie,

19/10/2008 13:10:38
133 Geoff

I'm good! I think that dude answered your question at 132. I suppose the current UK Government thinks along similar lines!!!
132

danbob,

19/10/2008 13:14:26
132# Since the Falklands war the lives of the islanders has transformed on an unimaginable scale. They are richer per head of population than Scotland will ever be. The war was not over oil. At the time of the war oil was just speculation. Their prosperity has come about because they have been encouraged to properly manage there fishing rights to their territorial waters. The Falklands war was a triumph for them in more ways than you could ever imagine.
133

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:17:32
sm573 & superpacel etc.

who cares what you said and when,whatever, i think the real issue is Scotland has these natural resources which even a non economist like everone on here would agree apart from the usual appologists for unionism that is, England has a tiny amount on the east coast nowhere near Scotlands level and it is a sound basis for a national economy, add to this whiskey, fishing, coal, farming, shipbuilding and the new heavy industies coming online for renewables our economy is looking quite solid compared to Englands.

So the fact remains that Scotland is subsidizing England while our country suffers and Broon bails out his obscene bankers profits and claims Scotland is a basket case along with a few of our neighbouring nation states.
134

Saxon Yolk,

19/10/2008 13:18:51
112 spanners

You cant wriggle out of it as easily as that.

I never disputed that oil arrived at G'mouth via tanker.

It does through the terminals at Hound Point and Finnart.

Not in TRUCKS as you stated.
135

Ugly George,

19/10/2008 13:21:17
132 Dude
"So the real reason thatcher sent in the troops was the oil eh! and not the poor islanders"

The Falklands war was 26 years ago. As we speak now there has not been any oil extracted from the Falklands even if it is there. If extraction starts in 5 years (2013) that will be 34 years afetr Maggie Thatcher came to power. I don't think that even she thought she would be PM for as long as that.
136

bluehead,

edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:21:58
I would still give it a bash,I doubt if any thing could be worse than having brown and his cronies hovering, about waiting to spoil any thing that would be beneficial to the Scottish people,they rant on that independence would not be a good thing,yet the very word drives them into hysterics,at the thought of separation the Scottish people must be heart sick of the mangy lot down there at Westminster,I wish they would disappear into the mist
137

Ugly George,

19/10/2008 13:23:34
143 Dude
"So the fact remains that Scotland is subsidizing England"

Why do people persist with this claim when all analysis done by variuos bodies shows that not to be the case.
138

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:24:55
The unionist position is terminal, the fact Brown tried to use the banking crisis(which he took out loans to finance, and like everyone knows Scotland as an independent nation would do the same thing) and imminent reccesion as proof that Scotland is a basket case and at the same time insult the countrys surrounding the british isles was a spectacular own goal.
139

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:26:40
145
Ugly George,
19/10/2008 13:21:17
132 Dude
"So the real reason thatcher sent in the troops was the oil eh! and not the poor islanders"

The Falklands war was 26 years ago. As we speak now there has not been any oil extracted from the Falklands even if it is there. If extraction starts in 5 years (2013) that will be 34 years afetr Maggie Thatcher came to power. I don't think that even she thought she would be PM for as long as that.

I stand corrected, but not on the case it was done for the islanders, it was done for her and her bloody empire
140

danbob,

19/10/2008 13:27:14
147# They have to persist George. The dream is dead without it.
141

danbob,

19/10/2008 13:30:12
150# The Falklands war happened because 90% of the british population ( and that includes Scotland) felt it was just.
142

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/10/2008 13:31:23
Headline: John Kay Supports Scottish Independence
143

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:34:16
150 dude
" stand corrected, but not on the case it was done for the islanders, it was done for her and her bloody empire"

Possibly so. However I don't know how old you are. I am certainly old enough to remember the Falklands war. I do not recall any significant protest against it in Scotland or anywhere else in the UK. The overwhelming feeling was of support even amonst those who disliked Thatcher (and there were many). Even the PM of New Zealand offered support in the way of additional armed forces if desired.
144

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:34:46
oil and gas = trillions left in revenues

fishing = with scottish control of fishing excellent future

coal = over 300 years of reserves under our feet

farming = with scottish control excellent future

shipbuilding = under scottish control excellent future

renewables = driven forward by SNP excellent future


I think you will begin to see the common thread here is industry in Scotland driven forward by an independent goverment without the strings of westminster taking what we have at the moment and bringing success for the scottish people, the other option is to leave things as they are and rot, i know what i want and so do the peolpe of Scotland in increasingly large numbers as Glenrothes will prove.
145

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 13:39:50
oh! and whiskey worth well over 3billion to the scottish economy
146

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 13:45:21
150 dude-the majority of the Falklanders are of british descent,primarily from early migration by mainly Scots and Welsh settlers.
147

Saxon Yolk,

19/10/2008 13:45:41
154 Ugly George

Nonsensical...half of the traitors were parading about in Argentina soccer shirts chanting VIVA MALVINAS!

Do you make a habit of going around with your fingers in your ears and your eyes closed saying LA:LA:LA:LA:LA:LAH?
148

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:46:29
155 dude
"oil and gas = trillions left in revenues"

Not necessarily. So much depends on the price of oil, the ease of extraction, the declining rate of production, the viability of small fields which are expensive to exploit. Oil reserves do not automatically translate into revenues. The USA has an estimated 200bn barrels of oil reserves but these are unlikely to be exploited as they lie on shale and the oil is difficult to extract .

"coal = over 300 years of reserves under our feet"

There are massive amounts of coal all over the UK. But is use of this going to be permitted under EU emissions policies as burning coal gives off high amounts of CO2 etc.

"shipbuilding = under scottish control excellent future"

How. The remaining shipyards depend on Royal navy contracts. They cannot really compete with shipyards in places like South Korea in the open market.

"fishing = with scottish control of fishing excellent future"

Are you advocating leaving the EU?


149

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 13:47:29
Dude your wired to the moon if you think Scotland's subsidising England. The real problem for us Scots is there are quite a few mathematically challenged like you that spread this rubbish.

A professor in finance who is partial to Nationalism is even saying its crazy just now. The SNP are being found out and about time too.
150

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 13:48:21
135

"Then why did so many people post to point out your error?"

Where and when you lying ugly little troll?
The only reference I have seen to a 1.6 figure claim is your government derived claim that the UK only produces 1.6 billion barrels per annum I havent seen the 1.6 figure used with any reference to Grangemouth if you have then show it?
151

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:48:56
158 Saxon
I take it that your comment is an impersonation. I wonder who?
152

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 13:50:50
161

The only common thread on here is the same lies expressed from the same source but different logons.
It doesnt matter how many you use the sh*te is the same shade of brown.
153

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 13:51:27
163

Which part of Edinburgh are you claiming youre from Ugly?
154

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 13:51:48
Dude reading some of your comments you are wired to the moon. Shipbuilding is totally reliant on the MOD orders. Your even more crazy if you think an Independent Scottish Navy would provide anywhere near the amount orders they get just now. WOOOOSSSHHH

as for fishing and argriculture thats controlled by the EU. And coal I hardly think your coalition with the Greens would last!!!!
155

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 13:53:35
154 Ugly George-good day george! Yes the new Zealanders sent a frigate to take over from the RN middle east patrol assistng the RN to deploy maximum resources to the South Atlantic.
156

Ewan M,

19/10/2008 13:54:13
Dude you are not in touch with reality!!!!!
157

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/10/2008 13:54:22
143 dude

My advice is to ignore the mis-information of sm753.

Take coal reserves for example. sm753 says about coal reserves:

"negligible. No deep mines left"

Note the use of the word "negligible" in his usual dismissive way.

Here's what the experts say about Scottish coal reserves as recently as 10th September 2008:

"But Scotland still produces around 7.5 million tons of coal per year, well over half the UK total of 11.9 million tons and enough to produce cheap electricity for 200 years"

200 years = negligible. You see the problem?

Now let's deal with sm's "claim" that there are "No deep mines left"

"However, Scottish Coal has decided to open the first new deep mine north of the Border for two decades - at Canonbie, Dumfriesshire" - Ironically, the only reason this has not yet progressed is because Scottish Coal are worried about lack of support for coal (nuclear being preferred) within the UK Government, but from an economic point of view SC would like to develop Canonbie and re-open Longannet.

From the Sunday Mail last week, 12th October 2008:

"A deal to open up a massive new deep coal mine on the English border is being discussed by Scottish Coal and the Government.

Longannet in Fife could also be resurrected in the deal which could bring more than 700 jobs.

The proposed new mine at Canonbie, Dumfriesshire, has 400 million tonnes of coal waiting to be mined.

Longannet, Scotland's last deep mine, shut down in March 2002 with the loss of 750 jobs when the underground works were flooded.

Since then Scotland's coal has come from opencast sites in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire, Fife and West Lothian.

Earlier this year Scottish Coal clinched a £700million deal to provide fuel for Scottish Power.

Now the company - which employs 750 people - is preparing to go back to deep-mining to meet the increased demand for what the Parliament has identified as "clean coal technology".

An insider said: "It is well known that the Scottis
158

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:54:29
162 Parcel
You are getting confused now. The 1.6 figure is not related to the context of Grangemouth.
159

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/10/2008 13:56:07
#169 continued

An insider said: "It is well known that the Scottish Government has looked at deep mining but they are serious about plans for Canonbie and Longannet.

"Canonbie sits on a vast coal supply and the talks are at an advanced stage."

Scottish Coal said: "While there has been talk about the potential for deep mining in the Longannet and Canonbie areas, we must ensure all options are explored.

"It is important that we get this right as Scotland has a number of areas where vital energy supplies could be obtained and help minimise dependence elsewhere.

"The economic benefits to the country would be substantial and we estimate the number of jobs within Scottish Coal alone could double if one or two reasonably sized deep mines in Scotland could be opened."

Now wait for the bitter spin from sm753 !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/10/eamines110.xml

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/editors-choice/2008/10/12/snp-hope-clean-coal-can-plug-scotland-s-energy-gap-78057-20796379/
160

Ewan M,

19/10/2008 13:56:28
Talking of not being in touch with reality eithers Salmond!!!!
161

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 13:56:45
170

No confusion here Ugly yer just sh*t stirring not even trying to debate or argue you know when yer out of yer depth so its down to what you do best trolling.
162

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 13:57:28
162 parcel
"you lying ugly little troll"
I can't help being cosmetically challenged but I am not lying no matter how many times you repeat the accusation.
163

Ewan M,

19/10/2008 13:59:27
connaughtboy if you think coal is going to fund Scotland you are seriously flawed. Start listening to your own ecconomic advisors he even thinks you have lost it.

I suppose depserate times call for desperate measures! I think someonse hearts ruling their head.
164

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 14:00:01
173
Parcel
How can I be out of my depth with somebody who confuses 1.6 million per day with 1.6 billion per year.

Where did the 1.6 billion per year figure you quote come from. Please give the source so that we can verify it before you accuse others of lying.
165

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 14:02:14
173 Parcel
PS
1 million = 1,000,000
1 billion = 1,000,000,000
1 day = 24 hours
1 year = 365 days or 365.25 to be precise.
166

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 14:05:21
177 sm 753
I must say, that in the name of decency, honesty and integrity, you shoul not refer to parcal as "spanners"

A spanner is a useful implement which has advanced civilisation for decades if not centuries. It must be grieviously offensive to any spanner to be compared to parcel.
167

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:06:52
connaughtboy, stonehaven

yup the sm573 character is a busted flush just like calamity broon

sm573 now sm572 1/2


168

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:09:15
and if we keep discrediting his obviously rubbish arguments against scotlands economy he might have to call himself sm or go back to his old name AM2

on the subject of AM2 = Scotlands shame
169

jdships,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 14:09:53
Quote of the Week
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
Thomas Jefferson 1802
170

The Tin Man,

19/10/2008 14:11:03
#173 Bagospanners

Each and every one of us is an ambassador for Scotland.

Your foul mouthed bile doesn't do any of us any favours.

I honestly think you support Scottish independence, rather than being Highland Mighty in disguise, but I can't imaging anyone who does their cause any more harm. You seem intent on ruining every thread you post on.
171

TWC,

Ayrshire 19/10/2008 14:13:45
And all this arguing about being at risk on our own is a load of tosh. I want Fiscal Autonomy because it is right and we should run our own country. (Even if we're poorer)

I'm not a Nat but I'm voting SNP because I don't trust New Labour and they are doing nothing for Scotland.
172

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/10/2008 14:17:28
#175 Ewan

I didn't say what you accuse me of.

What I am trying to do is to expose sm753 for his habit of presenting his bias as fact.

Also, Ewan I regard you as quite an insulting and rude individual. Resorting to your type of epithet is usually symptomatic of losing an argument.
173

Ugly George,

19/10/2008 14:17:30
169 connaughtboy
As I mentioned earlier the problem with coal is not the reserves - there are huge reserves all over the UK. The problem is that as EU anti-emission policies come more and more into force, coal-fired power stations will have to be phased out. There is talk of a clean-burning coal technology but many seem to be sceptical if this can be achieved on a viable basis.
174

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:18:08
166 arc of insolvency, 19/10/2008 13:51:48

Dude reading some of your comments you are wired to the moon. Shipbuilding is totally reliant on the MOD orders. Your even more crazy if you think an Independent Scottish Navy would provide anywhere near the amount orders they get just now. WOOOOSSSHHH

as for fishing and argriculture thats controlled by the EU. And coal I hardly think your coalition with the Greens would last!!!!


wired to the moon, where do i start with this zoomer, fishing used to be controlled by westminster and saw the fleet decimated, the scottish government now control fishing in scotland the EU controls quotas, scotlands wants to withdraw from eu control of fishing a positive enhancement of scottish fishing rights. Copal will be used in increasing numbers in years to come when cleaning and scrubbing technology get better and implemented in coal fired power stations.

Agriculture is being promoted as part of national drive to eat fresh locally produced food, the shipbuilding industry will survive it has done up until now even through thatcher
175

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:19:55
186
Ugly George,
19/10/2008 14:17:30
169 connaughtboy
As I mentioned earlier the problem with coal is not the reserves - there are huge reserves all over the UK. The problem is that as EU anti-emission policies come more and more into force, coal-fired power stations will have to be phased out. There is talk of a clean-burning coal technology but many seem to be sceptical if this can be achieved on a viable basis.


If Gordon Broon had not dithered we would be building our first and the worlds first carbon capture plant in fife quite sure this technology will work for coal
176

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 14:22:13
181 Dude
It is a matter of getting a realistic analysis of Scotland's economy. In the same way that it is not appropriate to deliberately talk down the economy, it is not appropriate to look at it through rose-tinted glasses either. There are fundamental structural aspects of the economy which have to be changed. The dependence on high govt spending is not sustainable in the medium to long term.
177

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:24:06
arc of insolvency

The unionist position is terminal, the fact Brown tried to use the banking crisis(which he took out loans to finance, and like everyone knows Scotland as an independent nation would do the same thing) and imminent reccesion as proof that Scotland is a basket case and at the same time insult the countrys surrounding the british isles was a spectacular own goal.


did you read that comment, i think your choice of moniker is quite honestly laughable if you think you are trying to prove a discredited point
178

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/10/2008 14:24:23
#186 George

That's a slighly different subject and I have not commented on that yet.

I was simply showing that we should all be wary of individuals like sm753, who is quite happy to dostort the truth about the coal reserves and deep mines in Scotland.

If he is willing to be less than truthful about this, my warning is to be wary of what he says.
179

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 19/10/2008 14:25:09
For some so-called "independence" is some kind of panacea whereas for others like me its an unnecessary alternative to devolved home-rule within the UK structure. Whilst the debate rages between Salmon and Broon let the population reflect on what exactly the MAJORITY of Scots want and I'm sure the answer will be an enhanced devolved Scotland - and then we LibDems can say we told you so, yet again.
180

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 14:26:31
188 Dude
"If Gordon Broon had not dithered we would be building our first and the worlds first carbon capture plant in fife quite sure this technology will work for coal"

Are you sure about that as every report I have read on this says that, at best, effective carbon capture technology for coal-fired power stations is many years from availability. And, as I said, many question whether it will ever be viable. If somebody has a current viable method of applying carbon-capture to coal power stations I would be interested to hear about it.
181

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:26:56
ugly george

totally agree and the first spending review will be local authorities, and the waste and double standards, leaner LC leaner central government less waste more money for the real issues that effect the scottish people and not to line the pockets of liebours brown envelope culture
182

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 14:27:53
the plant in question was experimental and was being part funded by BP, you have to start somewhere
183

TWC,

Arshire 19/10/2008 14:29:25
#192.
When will this policy be defined by the Party? formally
184

Ken S.,

Reading 19/10/2008 14:30:04
#139 Geoff,

You're right that it would have been political suicide not to have regained the Falklands, simply on the immediate situation presented by the invasion.

Whilst oil was not a consideration in that respect, the possibility of such exploitation was nevertheless being mooted back then. In the early '80s, a minor colonial chappie from the islands came on a study visit to Shetland, to see what lessons could be learned & applied to his fiefdom. Part of the tour was to view the fixed wing/helicopter oil rig crew transfer operations at Sumburgh Airport. The boss was too busy to show him round so this minion got delegated as guide. That Governor, Rex Hunt, got quite famous a few months afterwards!


As to the topic, it is perfectly sensible to take the view that this is not quite the best time to be considering independence. Straight fact of current life.

Whether a previous independent Scotland would have got into this mess in the first place, or whether a future independent Scotland would learn the current global lesson and arrange matters differently, is a separate question.

I still think an early referendum on independence is necessary, as nothing will get improved for either of us until we know whether that is to be separately or together.
185

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 14:42:53
Troll

Your claim based on yer govt stats is that the UK produces 1.6 billion barrels of oil per annum.
Thats your claim not mine. Thats your stat not mine.
186

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 14:46:02
198

And no doubt your indomitable source is the UK govt.
That well known broker of honesty integrity and honour.
Not to be confused with the criminals sitting in Westminster.
187

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 14:47:13
183

Well you obviously aint your just another London based cybertroll logon account.
188

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 14:51:22
177

So now youve changed yer claim again? why am I not surprised. Oh what a tangled web eh?
You couldnt fit the 1.6 billion per annum into the 700000 per day from Grangemouth and the 400000 into Sullom Voe so now you change yer parameters what a phuqing tool.
189

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 14:54:10
177

So what are you going to deny next that you never claimed that governments only produce information thats fits with their rhetoric?
Oh no wait a minute youve already denied that claim in spite of the overwhelming evidence.
190

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 14:55:23
204

Not your original claim phuqwit. 1.6 billion barrels per annum total UK production.
191

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 19/10/2008 15:12:11
Surely the fact scotland has such a high %age in the public sector and unionists believe that scotland couldnt stand on its own two feet because of the economy needing broadened is an admittance that the UNIONISTS have run Scotland appalingly badly in the first place? Or are they pleased that Scotlands economy is always stagnant? Is that the level at which they aspire for their nation?

Showing all the issues with Independence Now only highlights the incompetence of the way Unionists have run scotland?

Its under their watch that the economy isnt broad,
Its under their watch that we have a huge public sector
Its under their watch that weve squandered the Oil
Its under thier watch our school buildings are crumbling
Its under their watch that the billions of our money have been thrown into a black hole
and our children have died in the Iraqi desert.

If the above (and child poverty rates) failings of the Union are not THE REASON FOR INDEPENDENCE I dont know what is.

"Were too poor to go it alone!" they say. Well who made us poor in the first place? Sounds like saving our nation from this shambles is an urgent necessity.

You wouldnt let me organise you finances for your home and tell you what to spend in it, but you let that happen to your country.

Independence in the end will make us a better nation, As we can see above, we hardly have a high bar to aim for!!
192

Geoff,

sa 19/10/2008 15:23:48
197 KenS-Good day Ken-hope u are well! I know there is/was little love for Thatcher in Scotland but notwithstanding Dude's opinion that her dipatch of Admiral sandy Woodward & co. was to defend"her bloody Empire" I am sure that any British prime minister would have taken similar steps purely to protect our citizens. It is a little known fact that Jim Callaghan sent a task force to the south Atlantic as a warning to the Argentinians some years earlier than the 1982 invasion-it did not receive the same publicity!

Your meeting with Rex Hunt must with hindsight, have been quite an experience! I didn't realise oil was on the agenda then.

As to the topic and scottish independence, I don't really think it has a lot to do with the economic factors at all. The point i was trying to make earlier was that inasmuch as North sea Oil IS a factor in the debate then IF the Falklands do prove to have huge reserves, to what extent would it change the dynamic-in particular the "Its Scotlands Oil" Brigade. Personally, I still think the answer is-not much! I an sure most Nationalists vote with their hearts-the economicarguments on both sides of the debate are aimed at that narrow band of undecided voters in the middle!

Rgrds
193

Greatscot....,

London 19/10/2008 15:48:55
Jeez - you numpties are sooooooooo nervous. One little bit of criticism and you pour out your bile on teh poor guy. But let's just get one thing straight. Scotland doesn't have an economy. There's more to macroeconomics than getting a giro in the post. Someone actually has to get off their fat ar*e and work for someone other than the government. Now the government own the banks, what exactly is it that Scotland does?
194

David55,

London 19/10/2008 15:49:26
#22 "Scotland has no chance on its own."

So you'll continue to vote for parties that have manufactured the situation where Scotland has no chance on it's own?


195

,

19/10/2008 16:09:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
196

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 16:11:11
207

You produce your own figures to support your own lies and then ask me if they fit?

None of them fits in with the 700000 bpd into Grangemouth and the 400000 bpd into Sullom voe.

What has the US govt got to do with your lies? just because they publish figures produced by the UK govt or do you think the US govt keeps tabs on UK oil production by its own monitoring of our pipelines and refineries?
No doubt they also know how much revenue is collected as well.
Only one source of UK oil production figures and revenue exists and that is the UK govt all other tables and reports are derived from that one source no matter who publishes them. I have told you that upteen times before and you cant contradict it.
197

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 16:15:07
214

Why am I not surprised let me guess he was taken out of context?
198

Matt there,

Somewhere 19/10/2008 16:16:30
Mixed messages from the professor!

"Ooh, the economy is so bad I don't think Scotland should go independent just yet!"

Righto, prof!

The situation that Britain is in at the moment is that the Captain was first officer for 11 years. It turned out that all that time he was secretly putting holes in the hull so that when a storm blew up, the ship starting taking on a lot of water.

Now he has started trying to plug the holes he created. And is being praised for so doing.

Why? Surely Captain Brown should be confined to the brig or made to walk the plank for what he did and not praised by people like professor Kay?
199

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 16:18:47
212

If Scotland has no economy then what exactly is the union benefit to Scotland?
Has 300 years of union resulted in Scotland having no economy? or did it happen in 1708? because we definately had an economy in 1706.
200

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 16:22:56
207

"The UK had 1.9 million bbl/d of refining capacity in 2006, according to OGJ"

The refinery capacity at Sullom Voe is 1.1 bbl/d on its own. Explaining that youre full of sh*t doesnt actually do it justice. I think yer just pulling this tripe out of the air as a wind up.
201

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/10/2008 16:24:54
208

Oh come on troll its not as if youre even trying to hide the fact that you are ugly.
Sorry I meant you are posting as Ugly also.
202

Media 1,

cape town 19/10/2008 16:33:27
John Kay is not dishing out blows on purpose, he is merely pointing out the obvious.
But what I find sickening, is the blindfolded nationalist fervour that unfolds anytime Salmond is questioned or challenged.
The fantaticism is frightening!
203

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 19/10/2008 16:38:15
It is a very relative business, who gets money and capital. The money is ``lacking'' for specific sensible projects, while in other places it is squandered senselessly. That means that we need political decisions and state interventions, in order to guide a smooth flow of capital and credit in the right direction, so that necessary productive investment, for putting people, machines, and raw materials to work, is not left by the wayside for lack of capital.

We must here clearly distinguish between the current costs of the state, which must not overstep a specific boundary, and credits that are created by the national bank and are investment credits. These, when used productively, do not mean any additional burden on the budget, nor do they lead to higher taxes. The problem today is that the state gets its money on the capital markets at overly high interest rates, which then adds to current costs.

This is the argument for a National Scottish Bank whose prime purpose is to issue credit for new and vital infrastructure.

Brown has bailed out London/New York Casino Banking (which will mean more taxation for us) but has suggested nothing purposeful for creating a productive economy.
204

Mercian,

UK 19/10/2008 16:45:22
Kay is suggesting independence for Scotland should be a long-term strategy. Salmond himself, is a gradualist. It's possible Salmond shares this view, in private, and is using the professor to voice the opinion he wouldn't be able to credibly say in public.
205

Ewan M,

19/10/2008 16:48:43
connaughtboy what a ridicolous comment to make. I suggest your are in dire straits unwilling to even listen to the SNP's own financial advisor. Your are obviously afanatic, but you will nevr win over any neutral after Mr Kay's comments.
206

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 19/10/2008 16:53:14
Just love all those stories telling us that Scotland now can't afford to go it alone.

Gordon - "we have beat Boom and Bust and built in stability" - Brown is a bit like an Arsonist who has just burnt down someone's house and then tells them gleefully that they can't afford the re-building costs!
207

The Sprucer,

19/10/2008 16:56:34

Is it just me or might it also be true that being independent doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be the wealthiest country in the world? Why are we always tying ourselves in knots re the fiscal aspects instead of looking at the larger picture. It takes all of us to run this country not just bank managers (thank goodness).

Our country is not a balance sheet!
208

brownlie,

19/10/2008 17:07:12
227 Ewan M

Strange that you and Media 1 use the term "fanatic".

"Mr Kay's comments" - which you blindly accept - are full of contradictions and are open to a different interpretation than that stated in the article.

For instance, he states that the "UK's public finances now looks terrible" but "that the UK Government are taking and getting credit.... I think that credit is justified".

What the good professor is saying that the UK Government have made a mess of the economy but that they deserve credit for it!

That is exactly the kind of advice Scotland can do without.

209

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 19/10/2008 17:18:46
Not that the Story did bear any relation to the headline, but anyone who was privilged to watch alex Salmonds after speech interview with Glen Cambell on the BBC this afternoon will now know that once again a quote was taken out of context big time by a section on the unionist press and that this was then taken up as gospel by some of the others, Glen Cambell for one, and it back fired spectacularly, Glen also made matters worse for those of a unionists persusion when he asked the First Minster about another quote where he was supposed to have mentioned a light approach to regulation of the markets, only for Glen, and the rest of us to discover, that not only was this something else that unionists, this time in the shape of the Labour party, had taken out of context but that the opposite was true.

Yet another item that was taken as gospel and then repeated as gospel, without it would seem, anyone in the media bothering to check, or could it be they knew the truth full well but didn't bother to mention it?

There are those who come on to sites like this and accuse nats of wanting to shoot the messenger when they don't like the message, these examples clearly show just why nat's are not ready to jump at anything the British media says as being the truth.

What those in the media either don't care about or fail to see is that as this becomes abundantly more clear, then the majority of people who either buy papers or tune into tv and radio and who do not participate as much in political debate as those who actually write in to papers etc, will more and more come to question the truth not only of the political conetent of programmes or papers but anything else they report on.

I believe this is already the case with newspapers and is just one of the reasons why sales are dropping sharply.

It would seem however that there are those in the world of print would rather cut there own throats than tell the full story!

Hell mend them.
210

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 17:23:18
#231 It seem strange you are unwilling to accept Mr Kay comments? 2010 cancelled then?

#232 sneering? You should read some of you own comments. It is apparently obvious that some people even if the furher, oh I mean Salmond said Independecne was a lot of rubbish you would still support it!
211

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 17:26:18
Hen, Wendy Alexander ain't the Scottish Labour leader! More cut and paste rubbish. Did you not read your SNP supporter Mr Kay he says oil prices will be low for the foreseeable future, so bang goes your theroy!
212

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 17:29:13
Hen, May I also remind you that a low oil price means the viability of extracting some of this oil becomes negligable.
213

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 17:30:41
Real constructive. Slobbering....please refer to your comments.
214

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 17:32:57
Hen, whats the point of listening to your own ecconomic advisors eh...........wooosh!!!
215

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 19/10/2008 17:34:58
# 196 - is this what you want to help explain?

http://www.libdems.org.uk/policies/for-the-people-by-the-people-305328;show
216

arc of insolvency,

19/10/2008 17:36:04
Hen, been nice chatting, but I'm off. Atleast neutrals can come on and read a fine example of a Nationalist supporter in action...I'm sure they'll be convinced by you!
217

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh, Scotland 19/10/2008 18:06:28
Yet again the Scotsman appears to be telling porky pies as this story suggests the exact opposite of what is claimed here based on quotes by the same person!

http://news.scotsman.com/latest-scottish-news/Scotland-is-39financially-viable39.4607151.jp

Scotland is 'financially viable'
Date: 19 October 2008

One of the Scottish Government's economic experts an independent Scotland would be "financially viable".
Professor John Kay, one of the Council of Economic Advisers, also said Scotland could have recapitalised banks such as HBOS and the Royal Bank of Scotland "if it had so wished".

Prof Kay spoke out after Prime Minister Gordon Brown insisted an independent Scotland could not have bailed out its struggling banks.

Earlier this week, Mr Brown argued that it was only the financial strength of the United Kingdom that made the £37 billion capital injection for three of the UK's largest banks possible.

And comments made by Prof Kay to the Sunday Times appeared to support that.

He told the paper: "Scotland as an independent monetary entity probably wouldn't have been big enough to bail out either HBOS, RBS or both.

"If Scotland declared itself an independent country its finances would look pretty dire."

But, in a clarifying statement, he said: "It's perfectly obvious to me that Scotland could have recapitalised the banks with the £30 billion plus if it had so wished."

He explained: "The capacity of Scotland to have delivered large loan guarantees behind it depends on the monetary union Scotland would be a part of.

"In any case it's safe to assume that an independent Scotland would be in either the eurozone or sterling."

Copyright (c) Press Association Ltd. 2008, All Rights Reserved.

Bit of a red coupon for someone at the Scotsman? If not, there should be.
218

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 18:08:04
236Uncle Tom,19/10/2008 17:21:34
#229 The Sprucer

Maybe not.

But we still have to eat.

Without England feeding us we would become Europe's Bangladesh.

Our climate is too cold and wet and our soil is infertile and thin when compared to the rich and prosperous agricultural lands in the south.

Do you want your children and their children to starve, while The Fat Controller lives high on the hog in Bute House...Just to satisfy your illusion of a New Brigadoon and Salmonds vanity?


ba humbug what a load of gobshite

so when Scotland gets her independence England will refuse to trade with us, thats up to them there are plenty other friendlier countrys who will.
219

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 18:11:34
So blatent lies by the Scotsman to give the unionist lackys some fuel and they still cant muster a coherant argument, why do they bother all they end up is getting hot under the collar and taking it out on there wifes or dog or something, its not very good for there health is it
220

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 18:13:46
pissing up against the wall that is the nationalist bandwagon, onward and upwards to take control of our once proud country and let it flourish under direct scottish governance
221

,

19/10/2008 18:18:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
222

brownlie,

19/10/2008 18:34:12
265 UT

Why, then, did they write a song about the flour of Scotland?

You don't have a monopoly on printing rubbish.
223

David Scrimgeour,

19/10/2008 18:37:19
Does this mean that the current positive mood re Scottish politics will disappear? What are the chances that Eck can reinvent himself and the SNP platform?

The dream of being the 4th financial centre is Europe is gone and I always thought that the “Scotland’s Oil” argument was decidedly dodgy, how could it possibly work in practice without the use of armed force to occupy the platforms and pipelines a la George W.?

Taking a sober look at what are our real USP-type assets can you add anything to; wind, tourism, whisky and golf? Actually that’s pretty good for a wee country and a lot more than pre-Nokia Finland had! So one option is to get real as follows:

- developing wind and tidal energy for exporting electricity to whoever will buy it

- creating a tourism industry fund with participation by tourism businesses to finance international marketing and successfully expanding the revenues by 50% by 2015.

- the whisky guys just keep doing what they do

- develop international quality golf equipment and clothing brands and get those 500 golf courses filled up with paying Johnny foreigners (leave a couple that you don’t tell anyone about)

Otherwise we can certainly have a normal-sized IT industry (Silicon Glen is depopulated, they have all emigrated to central Europe and beyond), a worthy life sciences industry (Dolly was a freak) and a financial services industry that services Scotland and does a bit of international business on the side.

The term “world class” should be banned and the listing of all the important inventions by Scots likewise. Scotland could easily be ONE of the great small countries in the world IN WHICH TO LIVE.

224

vimto,

19/10/2008 18:46:34
123. If you had been paying attention you would know i am kimba,s mum,and my daughter has nothing to be ashamed of,unlike salmond who seems to make a good living out of stretching the truth some what.
225

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 18:56:26
I don't care if a unionist media spins me the "too poor to stand on my own 2 feet" stories. I do not care for the culture of dependence, as those Scottish unionists seem to wallow in.

At least the English are up front imperialists, even if British imperialism is a culture in its death throes.

No democratic country in the western world is going to go to the wall. No independent western country, that is.
226

Media 1,

cape town 19/10/2008 18:57:05
Bonnie Scotland - Brilliant Britian
Together we are one.
227

Bzzzz,

Edinburgh 19/10/2008 18:58:30
Scotlands economy would be awful in the current climate? NO S***! Whos isnt! ?

Salmond has a monumental job infront of him and so far he is doing great, it is difficult to convince people and change society. Anyone who is happy with their country being ran by another is just ridiculous and is severely lacking in ambition, imagination, self respect and respect for Scots.

There are so many smaller countries in the world living perfectly happily and successfully, there are far too many people (unionists) more interested in lining their own pockets than doing what is right for the country and its people, either that or they are just stupid.
228

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 19:06:35
Is Salmond ever going to stop granstanding?
He is now demanding that the HBOS deal be frozen until he is satisfied. Will HBOS shareholders sue Salmond when the value when their shares crater due to his interference? I hope so!
229

Media 1,

cape town 19/10/2008 19:16:54
Pricewaterhouse - Coopers and Lybrand!
Unified = PricewaterhouseCoopers

Unions are important and anyone who tells you otherwise is a simplisitc fool.
230

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 19:20:18
What is wrong with Salmond? With his searing intellect why has he not organised the rescue of the Scottish Banks that he now champions?
Or, is he just another hacked off shareholder of RBS? We should be told what Salmond's shareholding is in RBS and HBOS. Being a former employee of RBS he most likely believed that they were invincible?
That speaks volumes about Salmond's judgement and is precisely that to which Professor John Kay is alludes.
231

The Tin Man,

19/10/2008 19:21:26
At least what Salmond's advisor said has generated some debate, unlike what Salmond said.
232

Mcavity1uk,

Stirling 19/10/2008 19:22:56
Interesting that page 322/3 of ITV Teletext this evening says that prof Kay says independence would be "financially viable" and that Scotland could have recapitalised HBOS and RBS
And we thought the BBC was biased!
233

The Tin Man,

19/10/2008 19:28:06
#277 Mcavity

Bias is in the eye of the beholder...
234

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 19:29:01
Mcavity1uk # 277

Professor John Kay is a Salmond advisor; then why does Salmond not take his advice and save RBS and HBOS?
235

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 19:32:34
Aye, Media 1@274. Like the Union of South Africa. Fancy coming back under Westminster?
236

Ken S.,

Reading 19/10/2008 19:32:54
#210 Geoff
Good evening Geoff (I've been out for a while)

That guv'nor didn't look very important at the time. Still, I'm grateful to him even if I've had to wait over 25 years for a relevant opportunity to boast of my minutely reflected momentary glory :-)

Independence certainly has more to do with the heart than the wallet. Provided that a nation is capable of looking after itself economically (of which I have no doubt, whether in Scotland's or even England's case) then degrees of financial benefit should not really influence one's view -though, you say, it serves to resolve the minds of the undecided.

Can't argue logically as to why I should feel so, but the 'heart' thingy is why I'm a revised Unionist (i.e. English parliament), whilst also equally respecting those who seek independence.
237

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 19:45:00

263
Pax Vobiscum,
19/10/2008 18:18:39
dude, 262: flourish or flounder?
Report Unsuitable
264
Uncle Tom,
19/10/2008 18:24:28
263

If we spit on the hand that feeds us.

They will give us no flour, not even the synthetic flour you mention, far less Flounders.
Report Unsuitable
265
Uncle Tom,
19/10/2008 18:28:52
Scotland can't grow flour.

It is too cold wet and windy!



when will these people realise that these kind of statements do not work they are so full of gobshite, scotland cant grow flour its too wet, scotland cant have its own government they are too thick(applys to most unionist MSPs and MPs), scotland has no oil left, scotlands a bunch of scroungers and spongers, scotlands a bunch of haggis eating drunks who beat their wifes up etc etc

where will these fools go when we get independence, England maybe where all the bread is perhaps, hahahahah
238

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 19:47:46
Jock Tamson # 280

There are people, in charge, in South Africa who have a vested interest, usually financial, in not "coming back under Westminster."
In Scotland there is a small number, of yet, unidentified individuals, who have an interest, usually financial, in taking you and Scotland out of the Union. If Scotland comes out of the Union their financial security is confirmed.
Does anybody really believe that Salmond wants Scottish Independence for reasons of historical sentiment? Salmond and his acolytes want independence so that they can all make mountains of money? The Scottish people are their prospective, collective "cash cow."
The problem with the system, as it is, is that they cannot make enough money out of us.
239

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 19:53:53
In an independent Scotland it will be Salmond and his preferred supporters that will be taxing us, backed up by SNP thugs, some of whom have posted above; the really bad guys, you have not heard from, yet!

The aforementioned SNP thugs will whine to the moderator that this post should be deleted; we'll see!
240

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 19:54:00
Stop talking rubbish Churchill, that is the biggest pile of gobshite that i have ever heard, there is no country in the world and that includes former colonies of England who would even contemplate 'coming back under westminster' even if they had no bread and England had it all, go away you complete nincompoop


241

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 19/10/2008 19:59:53
I'm just going to say this...

This credit crunch is due to the banks creating securities, ie. mutual funds, out of subprime mortgages and credit card debts in the US.

Gordon Brown, as Chancellor of the Exchequer previously or Prime Minister, had no control over it or method to prevent it, as if he tried to legislate prohibitions on banks purchasing such securities, banks would've been up in arms about unnecessary Government intervention.

No I think this problem really started when Bush signed the ironically titled "Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005." The provisions of that act caused people to be unable to discharge credit card debt here, and unleashed a high rate of interest on most subprime borrowers. Couple that with high petrol and Adjustable Rate Mortgages, this is where it comes from - Greedy Banks who forgot we all are people and not enhancements to their bottom lines.

In other words, this isn't Broon's fault, it Bush & Company only.
242

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 20:00:27
Aye, right, Churchill W. 283&285.

To paraphrase,

Scotland's ill be not be overcome until the last unionist is strangled by the last copy of the Johnston Press Scotsman.
243

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 20:01:26
Churchill

you are the kind of person who has been running Scotland down thru the years with this type of rubbish, no one believes you any more even when you tell the truth which cant be very often, the only people who listen are like minded bigots and labour party activists who think we are all thick, in the past there was no other way than vote labour most of us thought that labour were on Scotlands side, yup we were taken for a ride just like calamity Brown, but now there is an SNP government and showing the way forward, the union is dead we only need to bury it
244

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 20:04:47
dude # 286

You are hearing things via your computer that don't exist, look at the screen.
If you think that Salmond and his acolytes care about you, then you ARE deluded. They want to take your dole money; they have it worked out to the penny how much they will have from you. Even though it will not be much in your case.
Your knowledge of SNP invective is impressive, nevertheless that will not win independence for slimy Salmond.
245

dude,

wishaw 19/10/2008 20:07:55
yes very good Churchill its been nice but i can go on like this everytime i read your posts and those of your othe rmonikers i cant stop laughing

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha AH!hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
246

weh,

19/10/2008 20:09:12

Magnificent speech by Salmond!

He tore the PM's "handling" of the crisis to shreds and dubbed him a "sub-prime minister!"

PS Why hasn't "call me dave" done this already??

247

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 20:15:04
283 Churchill

I hope this is humour you are peddling.

Whether nationalist, unionist or mere bystander, these comments are laughable. You have no grasp of the current political climate. If you really oppose independence, then, as the saying goes, 'know your enemies'.
248

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 20:20:20
Jock Tamson # 288

You have a lamentable history of posts here, where it is obvious that you are incapable of understanding points made to you. You compound that lack of understanding whenever you can. If you believe that Salmond is your saviour then take to the streets, with your Tory supporters, and convince the Scottish people of that; if you have the moral fibre.
People take to the streets throughout the world when they think their political views are right, but, you who wants Scottish independence so much, are unable to muster any support on the street.
Is that a movement? If it is, it is a very small movement; best forgotten. Salmond will not be remembered in a few years either.
249

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 20:22:18
You know, I think I would rather live in an arc of modest prosperity with its wee ups and downs than in Broon's bubble of prosperity.
250

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 20:26:13
297, Churchill W. Oh dear, you appear to attempt a low level at superiority in your posting but fail to attain it.
251

GMCD,

dundee 19/10/2008 20:27:36
Not doubt this expert will be termed a traitor by the rose-tinted, brigadoonists in the SNP.....another exoert will be found to supp
252

,

19/10/2008 20:28:35
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253

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:30:08
297 Churchill

Your claim to have a knowledge of Jock's posts suggests that you are not a stranger to the site. As the present moniker is a new one perhaps you could let us know who you posted as before?

Your posting at 285 is reminiscent of another poster who bit the dust.
254

brownlie,

19/10/2008 20:32:53
301 Pax

Brilliant post - it is a well known fact that Glasgow is the only place where malingers linger and wasters waste.
255

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 20:33:45
301 Pax

The same way that pre-separation Scotland pays for them I guess. Strange question.
256

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 20:33:48
Hen Broon # 292

Another Matron joke?
Sorry, Matron says you are very funny and for me to stop winding you up, in case you blow another gasket and end up in here with me again! She also says that you shouldn't mock the afflicted; because only pr*cks would do that.

What I say is, that that you are toadying little Salmond wannabee with an impressive line in invective and a diminishing line in SNP policy. SNP policy, oh, oh; forget the policy, "Save the Banks."
Sensible people know that if Salmond could have saved the banks he would have done by now. Sensible people know too that Salmond's recipe for Scottish Independence is just a wish list. He has attempted to sell the Scottish people a false prospectus.
Now is the time for Salmond to resign as FM and resume his more profitable seat, where he is most comfortable, Westminster. At least at Westminster, he is recognised for what he is; nothing.
257

,

19/10/2008 20:35:54
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258

,

19/10/2008 20:37:27
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259

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 20:37:28
Andrew BOD, # 296

Should I warn my enemies that I know them?
260

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 20:38:47
Brownlie, 302. Churchill W. is an obvious troll. A learner, I reckon. It has no idea of my former posts. If it did, it would realise that I sometimes spout as much sense as p†sh. Same as everyone.

261

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 20:49:13
As you wish, Smee@311. as you wish. Shall we ask to see the books then?

Perhaps we could see who is right and who is wrong.
262

,

19/10/2008 20:51:39
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263

,

19/10/2008 20:54:42
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264

Florestan,

glasgow 19/10/2008 20:57:06
I don't know why you are all bothering. Scotland will never leave the UK. Now, can we talk about something more interesting for a change.
265

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 20:58:20
308 Pax

I take it we have more "malingerers and moaners" than anywhere else in the UK then? Have you checked the figures for the NE of England?
266

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 21:00:32
309 Churchill

From your inane post @ 283, you've not got a clue about who your enemies are or what they're about.
267

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 21:01:38
317 Florestan

I think you're on the wrong thread. The clue's in the article above.
268

,

19/10/2008 21:05:43
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269

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:05:44
314, Pax, I said we, as in public information. If this comes under the official secrets act then something is wrong

316, Smee. I await the relevant information through the letterbox as a shareholder of HBOS. Did you get your extra shares instead of dividend?

To both. Would there be this problem if the shares were still sitting at around £4.?
270

,

19/10/2008 21:08:49
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271

,

19/10/2008 21:14:29
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272

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:16:47
324, Tam. You really are a laugh a minute.
273

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 21:22:23
Jock Tamson # 310

Does your wife, or your boyfriend think that you are a big man because being rude and the ability to spout cheap invective comes easily to you? Do they think that you and Salmond are interchangeable because you have that same easy, sneering attitude?
Has Professor John Kay ever heard your name?
274

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 21:26:28
Andrew BOD # 319

I know who the enemy of the Scottish people is: Salmond.
275

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:27:03
327, Smee. You really are honoured. I got a letter dated 8th October from HBOS.

"Dear Shareholder,

HBOS plc
Capitalisation issue in lieu of the 2008 Interem Dividend."

Either you - as a shareholder - or your wife, got one of those letters because you had no option. The bank decided.

Cut the c r a p, Smee.
276

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:28:52
Churchill W.

Are you still in troll primary school?
277

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 19/10/2008 21:32:59
#267 It's a very limited view to base an economy on golf, whisky and tourism.

How do we adequately define the nature of human intelligence, and particularly what we call creative mental activity? Well ,let us look at the physical effect of such activity, in terms of human existence, in terms of the growth of economies. For creative mental activity of individuals is the unique cause of technological progress, and technological progress is the unique cause of sustained economic growth, properly defined. If we can demonstrate that healthy economic growth is governed by the same geometrical principles as living processes generally, then the same must be true for creative mental activity, which is the cause of such growth!

A precondition is to clear away all the intellectual garbage surrounding the concept of economic growth, the insanity of monetary accounting procedures like the so-called Gross National Product, which count drugs and gambling profits as forms of wealth. The only sane measure of growth of economies is in terms of the ability to sustain a growing human population at increasing levels of per-capita consumption and physical productivity. In other words, to provide for an increasing density of human individuals each one of whom is able to contribute at a higher level to the further growth of the economy so defined. Once economic growth is defined in terms of this self-reflexive concept of increase of relative potential population density, the identity of the law of economic growth with that of living organisms generally becomes readily apparent.

But, that growth depends on the creative powers of the mind to continually generate and apply scientific and technological progress. Each overall level of technology defines a relative upper limit on the population which could sustain itself in that way. If we ``freeze'' technology at some level, society will eventually exhaust the accessible base of resources in that mode, and collapse. Therefore, even th
278

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 21:36:44
Jock Tamson # 331

Everybody, here, knows that you are a funny creature, does Professor John Kay have the benefit of your wit and wisdom. No doubt if he had he would amend his advice to his principal in this, Salmond.
But would Salmond listen?
279

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 19/10/2008 21:40:20
No less than 330 juvenile postings. I suppose it must be the weather. Nothing else to do. Anyway Independence is dead. Just ask the Bankers who hold the reins now, thank goodness. I think they will really be earning their bonuses next year, and if they can help to cement the Union financially, they will have earned every penny.
280

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 21:41:12
Jock Tamson

You are clearly not a Salmond confidante, or, close advisor. Because if you were you would be by Salmond's side at his Perth "triumph."
You did not answer my question, does Professor John Kay know your name; maybe he knows you by reputation?
281

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:43:23
Smee,333, Why don't you ask your wife and get back to me?

Is she out? I would be very interested if you could get around to quoting the next paragraph after "Interem Divedend".

The covering letter gives no details as to amounts, so all confidentialities are maintained.
282

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 19/10/2008 21:45:56
.. the maintenance of a constant level of potential population density requires a certain minimum rate of technological progress.

It's not beyond the wit of a Nation or even regions to organise the financing of this essential infrastructure. It's been done before in many places for 100s of years.

What I'm saying is that you can restructure and REGULATE a financial system around capable and educated people. In all productive nations, the state has intervened (issued credit) to promote science and engineering and commissioned new and vital public works.
283

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 21:48:23
Jock Tamson # 337

I can see the whole of Scotland just lining up to take your financial advice. What is Salmond waiting on?
Pompous and clown come instantly to mind, time will provide more appropriate definitions of you.
Have you heard from Professor John Kay lately?
284

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:50:24
Churchill W.

Could you ask Professor John Kay if he has ever heard of Jock Tamson? And could you also tell him that Jock Tamson may have heard of him before today's article but can't really remember or care.
285

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:55:02
339, Churchill W. Talking self -loathing into a mirror is not healthy.
286

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/10/2008 21:56:26
Aye right, Smee@341.
287

Churchill W.,

19/10/2008 22:39:56
Jock Tamson # 340

That is the problem with people like you, unpalatable facts and opinions can be easily dismissed. Has Salmond so easily dismissed Professor John Kay's conclusions, or, is he less quick to run to defame the man?
The problem is, we never hear directly from Salmond on anything, but, always from some "spokesman."
Why does Salmond never come out and say what "his" policies are?
288

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 19/10/2008 23:29:48
Churchill

Just thought I'd remind the whole thread about your silly comments:

"In Scotland there is a small number, of yet, unidentified individuals, who have an interest, usually financial, in taking you and Scotland out of the Union. If Scotland comes out of the Union their financial security is confirmed.
Does anybody really believe that Salmond wants Scottish Independence for reasons of historical sentiment? Salmond and his acolytes want independence so that they can all make mountains of money? The Scottish people are their prospective, collective "cash cow."
The problem with the system, as it is, is that they cannot make enough money out of us."

It's not even worth discussing, but people can draw their own conclusions on the merits of the person who wrote it, and whether these are "unpalatable facts" or not.
289

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/10/2008 23:57:42
#198 sm

Semantics dear chap. There are deep mines left in Scotland and they will be mined. Don't be so dismissive next time !
290

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/10/2008 00:00:00
#202 sm753

Not my figures sm, I posted the link.

sm in full retreat !
291

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/10/2008 00:04:00
227 Ewan

Being as abusive as ever I see !

You lost the moral high ground way back in this thread !
292

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/10/2008 00:09:09
#285 churchill

Sorry buddy. Your post is too insignificant to bother the moderator with !
293

,

20/10/2008 00:11:44
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/10/2008 00:18:57
#333 sm

I thought Salmond's speech was a masterpiece.

The voters in Glenrothes are deserting Labour and moving across to the SNP.

For all your spin, you are backing a lost cause.

295

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 20/10/2008 04:58:25
#36 DWAW

"You're the one who abandoned your country to become one of the hordes of Plastic Jocks who like to lecture the rest of us on our patriotic duty."

We did not abandon our country, Scots Expats by and large still have strong feelings for their homeland and some eventually return. You call us plastic jocks because we sought out economic opportunities for ourselves and family's, Scotland has a long history of Scots leaving to seek opportunity, this does not make us less Scottish than you. In fact I would argue that our willingness to seek out new opportunity far from home exemplifies the best characteristics of what it means to be Scots. A willingness to embrace new ideas and new frontiers is one of features of my countries history of which I am proudest.

Unlike some who would argue that Unionist turncoats such as yourself are in fact not worthy of being called a Scots. I would argue that you exemplify the other side of the Scottish Character, the self loathing toady who would willingly sacrifice opportunity for the safety of Britain's tire old teet. No doubt you are Scottish, its history is replete with back stabbing dirt bags like the Unionist rabble who have worked to undermine Scotland at every turn, you celebrate its failures and pour scorn on its success's.

The question is what part you will play in an independent Scotland? Does she need Quisling bottom feeders like yourself or will she need the skills and entrepenurial drive of the Expats?

I think that when may country has finally achieved its independance, I like many other Expats will want to return. It will finally be evidence that the best parts of the Scottish charecter have won out over the loathsome qualities exhibited every day on these boards by you and your fellow travellers.
296

Royster,

20/10/2008 04:58:53
The SNP aren't singing anymore!
297

aljok.23,

the world 16/11/2008 10:30:19
Of course Scotland will be left with nothing other than the suit it was born in ,before the Empires powers will stop stealing from the Scots but I will vote independence all the same. Walk away and start again. Independent from a dictatorial power which creates misery for anyone it desires to. We have a toothless population. Poor who wish to remain on handouts and rich who align with the leaders who made them so. To all the people of the British Isles who revel in the misery the rest of the UK will face just to keep the rich happy, you know who and what you are.

 

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