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Salmond's simplistic anti-war rhetoric misses bigger picture


If First Minister ever leads an independent state, he could face some tough military decisions

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Published Date: 22 March 2008
EARLY in the National Theatre of Scotland's Iraq war play Black Watch – which begins its final tour of Scotland this week – there is a moment when two huge on-screen figures appear, representing Alex Salmond, as leader of the SNP at Westminster back in 2004, and Geoff Hoon, then Secretary of State for Defence.


The actor playing Salmond is heard – in the SNP leader's own words – denouncing the callousness of the British government in complying with an American request to send the regiment into the hellhole of Camp Dogwood, near Fallujah, while at the sa
me time announcing the merger of the regiment back home. Geoff Hoon, on the other hand, is defending the government's position as best he can. And as the play evolves, it becomes fairly clear that, while the documentary-based views expressed by the soldiers in the script often chime fairly closely with Alex Salmond's, they very rarely echo those of Geoff Hoon.

So, it is difficult this week – as we mark the fifth anniversary of the British-American invasion of Iraq – to deny the First Minister his moment of vindication, as one of the minority of front-line politicians who opposed the war from the outset. It's an open secret that many in the British military – from humble squaddies to top brass – have always had profound doubts about the purpose, ethics and practicality of the Iraq operation; and that the operation itself has been always difficult, and sometimes disastrous, for the Iraqi people, despite recent tentative improvements in the security situation. Under these circumstances, a majority of Scots will probably have no quarrel with Alex Salmond's contention this week that most Scottish service personnel do not support the war; and the more Westminster's Scottish Labour contingent bluster in protest, the more out of touch they sound, north of the Border.

And yet, in the back of my mind, I can't help feeling that there is often something slightly off-key and simplistic about the First Minister's pronouncements on matters of war and defence; a tone that rings faint alarm bells.

In the first place, it seems to me that his attitude to the British military fails to allow for the sheer complexity of the ties that bind Scottish people into the British state, and for the fact that those ties are organic as well as structural. In the Nationalist circles in which Mr Salmond moves, the British state is commonly dismissed as an intrinsically negative force, an artificial construct created in the 17th and 18th centuries, purely for purposes of imperialism and conquest; whereas Scottish nationhood is seen as a natural and benign phenomenon.

But, for most Scottish people, the relationship with Britishness is far more complex than that. During good times, as in the proud aftermath of the Second World War, it flourishes, and the cultural ties that bind grow stronger; in times like these, they tend to weaken. But it is not – as Alex Salmond's words half-imply – just a case of good, democratically minded Scottish soldiers trapped in an oppressive imperial army. Those troops have their loyalties to that army as a whole; the regiments have their shared responsibility for its long history. And they have plenty of colleagues not from Scotland, who may well share their views on Iraq.

And then, secondly, there is the wider question that still remains unresolved, as we near the end of this first decade of the 21st century, about what exactly the obligations of nations are, when they witness grotesque oppression in another country.

Following the infamous chapter of lies, spin and error that surrounded the Iraqi venture, it is now fashionable to dismiss "liberal interventionism" as a silly idea, a brief 1990s fad that led Tony Blair and Bill Clinton to send troops into Bosnia, Kosovo, even Sierra Leone, but that has been comprehensively discredited since 2001. And in this political climate, it is easy for anti-war politicians such as Alex Salmond to talk as if the idea of British troops using military force to do good in foreign lands has always been self-evidently foolish.

If Alex Salmond ever finds himself the leader of an independent Scotland, though, with his own troops to deploy and life-or-death decisions to make, he will find that, for all but the most committed pacifists, these choices are far more complex than most anti-war rhetoric allows.

It is to be hoped that no future independent Scottish government – or, indeed, any future UK government – would ever again be tempted to make the mistake of joining a peacekeeping, or peacemaking, operation without the full sanction of the United Nations. But that clear policy position aside, the act of sending young men and women to risk their lives, in situations where there can never be complete certainty that their sacrifice will do more good than harm, is always controversial, never easy, never without its lingering sense of guilt.

I once heard the philosopher Bernard Williams argue that politicians are people who dirty their hands with power on our behalf, so that the rest of us can continue to feel clean. Yet Alex Salmond, though now a very senior politician, still talks of war and peace like a man with clean hands, exonerated from guilt by his very Scottishness; small wonder that to anyone with a feeling for history, that cry of "it wisnae us" often has an empty sound, and never quite rings true.





The full article contains 914 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 March 2008 9:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

BIG EYE,

Paisley 22/03/2008 00:17:20
We were lied to, consistantly over a period not measured in days or weeks but months, some might argue years.

Alex Salmond saw through the lies and adopted a principled position. At the start of this article I thought this article was designed to support that principled position.

As I read on I learned it was a Scotsman piece that basically argues that alex Salmond was right he remains basically wrong and that Westminster knows best.

with this standard of anti Scottish bias your days are becoming increasingly numbered!
2

I-Mac,

22/03/2008 00:37:17
Salmond is never slow to strike a populist pose. Could be he underestimates the Scottish people.
3

Fifi la Bonbon,

22/03/2008 00:49:09
"And the author of the above article is ?"

Buy the paper and find out.

I thought it was an interesting article. Nothing is that simple, other than perhaps the uber-nationalist mindset. No doubt the die hard nationalists will disagree with it. But the difference is that many will attack the author,and the publisher, and denounce those who disagree with them as quislings and traitors and every other bad thing under the sun whose "days are numbered" as threatened by #2.
4

An Beal Bacht,

22/03/2008 00:53:50
A chancer takin a pot shot at Alex = crap editorial.
5

Conan the Librarian™,

22/03/2008 00:54:15
"And yet, in the back of my mind, I can't help feeling that there is often something slightly off-key and simplistic about the First Minister's pronouncements on matters of war and defence; a tone that rings faint alarm bells."

How to damn with faint praise.

****Johnston Press***

6

Senga Jean,

Scotland 22/03/2008 00:59:15
Give me the simplicity of Alex Salmond and the SNP every time. The complexity and the intellectual ginormusness of New Labour and its duplicity dangerously diminishes the dimensions of peace on this earth. Scotland could do so much for the good of this planet if liberated from the Trident warmongers.
7

tartan army 2222,

22/03/2008 01:03:57
Oh the irony - The Scotsman berating someone for being 'simplistic' and missing the 'bigger picture'.

This paper really has hit rock bottom. What a shame so few buy it anymore.
8

,

22/03/2008 01:05:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

tartan army 2222,

22/03/2008 01:05:24
#4 I-Mac

The Scotsman is never slow to strike a unionist pose. Could be they underestimate the Scottish people.
10

RossA,

Toronto 22/03/2008 01:10:27
No doubt in the warm afterglow of the war in Iraq the Scots will clamor for an end to devolution and demand to be called the North British once again.

Whoever wrote this article must have been reading up their book on "Damming with Faint Praise for Dummies".
11

Senga Jean,

Scotland 22/03/2008 01:16:05
Scotland is proud of the SNP and its ethical stance on this war. Blair Brown and Bush are a disgrace to mankind.
12

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 01:34:41
Fifi I thought it was an interesting article too, and I am a supporter of full Scottish Independance as quickly as possible.

As for the article, Alex Salmond was not a follower of populist rhetoric in the case of the illegal attack on Iraq. In actual fact he argued that it was not a just war, against the populist position of the time and was proved to be very correct in his predictions that a injust action would never solve the problems and would open a can of worms that the so called West had not considered.

Now those are the facts maam, yet you come on this forum and allow your bias against Alex Salmond to muddy the arguement for or against the article.You then introduce the descriptive term of UBER, to try link Democratic Nationalism with the German Nazi party of the second world war, to which many of the Scottish People of all political persuasions fought and sometimes died fighting.

I am afraid both you and your British Nationals dont seem to have a credable arguement for the continuation of the Act of Union, therefore you come out with cheap New Labour type derogatory terms, rather than argue the case for or against.

Perhaps it is time for you and your type to go back to your beloved Westminster Controlled Political Party of whatever ILK, and ask them to clarify exactly why you should believe their limited rhetoric.

We in the supporters of the Right of the Scottish People to remove themselves from an illegal Act of Union and to take control of their country to try make things better for the People of the Scottish Nation by repairing the poverty and disastrous mismanagement of our Country by a foreign power, who treated us in their Parliament as nothing more than second class people who were a mere afterthought. At the very least, an independant Scotland will guarantee the rights of the people to a written constitution reinstating them, the people to the position of Sovereign of a Scottish State regardless of their race, colour, religous belief o
13

Willie Macleod,

Wick 22/03/2008 01:40:39
#14 Another good Saturday Column by Joyce Mcmillan
14

CROSSED GEORGE,

22/03/2008 02:02:10
Senga Jean,Scotland 22/03/2008 01:16:05
Scotland is proud of the SNP and its ethical stance on this war. Blair Brown and Bush are a disgrace to mankind

SNP, BLAIR AND BROWN ARE A DISGRACE TO SCOTLAND, NO WHERE ELSE
15

W Smith,

Middle East 22/03/2008 02:05:08
Maybe the Salmond-istas can kindly inform me when exactly did the muslim arabs become anti-war PACIFISTS.

During the 6-day war with Israel in 1967?

Or was it the Yom Kippur War several years later?

The Iran-Iraq war perhaps?

(The Palestinian 'fatwa' or uprising is sanctioned by the UN and therefore 'legal', eh Salmond?)

The fact that Salmond thinks arab muslims are pacifists tells me he knows f*** all about the Middle East or he's trying to cover for his arab muslim friends.

In my opinion, Salmond is a Palestinian supporter who becomes anti-war when the side he's supporting takes a hiding.

He's a decietful kiddy-on pacifist who speaks to a regime in Iran that's committed to wiping Israel off the map.

Like Egypt's President Nasser and Palestinian Yasser Arafat, Salmond and Galloway will go to the grave without seeing Israel defeated.

UNLUCKY!
16

subrosa,

22/03/2008 02:06:19
Wasn't Alex Salmond slated by the Uk and Scottish press, plus the unionist parties, for taking a slot on the BBC to air his objections to the Iraq war? I think so.

To the writer of this article: I know of many Scottish service personnel who would have joined a Scottish military force before a UK one. I accept you've been instructed to write something derogatory about the SNP in the run up to the labour love-in at Aviemore.
17

CROSSED GEORGE,

22/03/2008 02:07:31
a proud doonhamer,Dumfries 22/03/2008 01:05:11
The author of this article and its publisher are NOT quislings. They are simply deluded sychophants unable to seperate fact from fiction. Roll on Alex, Scotland is proud of you

ALEX SALMOND - THE BIGOTED "GOVERNMENT" LEADER
SEAN CONNERY - SO NATIONALISTIC HE ACCEPTS A KNIGHTHOOD OF THE HALF SCOTTISH QUEEN OF ENGLAND
ROD STEWART - BORN IN THE ENGLISH CAPITAL AND PRETENDS TO BE SCOTTISH WITH A COCKNEY ACCENT

WHAT A LOT TO BE PROUD OF

ANYWAY, IF YOU DID HAVE INDEPENDENCE THEN THE REST OF US WOULD NOT HAVE HAD BROWN, BLAIR, REID, DARLING ET AL THRUST UPON US, YOU WOULD HAVE HAD TO SUFFER THEM IN SILENCE. AND HOW WOULD SCOTLAND SURVIVE WITHOUT THE BILLIONS OF SUBSIDIES IT UNGRATEFULLY BUT WILLINGLY RECEIVES FROM ITS MUCH MALIGNED SOUTHERN NEIGHBOUR
18

CROSSED GEORGE,

22/03/2008 02:12:19
Jackie Priest,22/03/2008 02:07:53
It should also be said that Salmond took risks in being one of few high profile politicians to speak out against the war. For once, we saw in him a politician sticking to a principle that doesn't deserve this kind of mealy-mouthed response from a half-baked article

SALMOND, HIGH PROFILE? ONLY ON A REGIONAL BASIS, I SHOULD THINK OUTSIDE SCOTLAND HE IS BARELY KNOWN
19

An Beal Bacht,

22/03/2008 02:23:09
20 - W Smith, Middle East 22/03/2008 02:05:08;

Have you ever heard of the Haganah? The Irgun? The Stern Gang? The King David Hotel? Deir Yassin? What do you know?
20

An Beal Bacht,

22/03/2008 02:32:54
Aye Jackie - they're:

1 - EVIL INCARNATE!
2 - EVIL DOERS!
3 - PART OF THE AXIS OF EVIL!

George Dubayuh says so.
21

RossA,

22/03/2008 02:33:08
Homer Simpson says, "Eat pet.....mmmmmm........munch!".
22

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 02:39:14
Tough Military decisions??? like those faced by Ireland? Norway? Switzerland? Finland? Sweden? Belgium? Luxembourg? Iceland? Italy? Austria? Denmark?
Etc Etc Are we to assume that England will expect us to follow in their war mongering footsteps after independence?? Why would a Scottish Prime Minister ever have to face a tough military decision during his entire career??
23

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 02:42:03
20

Aye theyre no the peace loving hippies you'll find in Israel right enough.
24

The Pict.,

22/03/2008 03:16:14
The TRUTH is that Prime Minister Alex Salmond SAW THE BIG PICTURE. He is a GREAT leader.
25

Robbie 2,

22/03/2008 04:06:10
There's the journalist’s answer - small sovereign countries (such as New Zealand) do send their young people as peace keepers but only with UN backing. The UN is not perfect but the doctrine of collective security and UN sanctioning of military actions is better by far than the unilateral invasion by nations who believe might is right.
To fall back on the defence of ‘but Saddam was evil’ ignore the counter-argument that the US have not only ignored but actively supported dictators and regimes as bad if not worse than Iraqi’s former ruler.
26

Robbie 2,

22/03/2008 04:06:56
“It is to be hoped that no future independent Scottish government ..or, indeed, any future UK government would ever again be tempted to make the mistake of joining a peacekeeping, or peacemaking, operation without the full sanction of the United Nations."

There's the journalist’s answer - small sovereign countries (such as New Zealand) do send their young people as peace keepers but only with UN backing. The UN is not perfect but the doctrine of collective security and UN sanctioning of military actions is better by far than the unilateral invasion by nations who believe might is right.
To fall back on the defence of ‘but Saddam was evil’ ignore the counter-argument that the US have not only ignored but actively supported dictators and regimes as bad if not worse than Iraqi’s former ruler.
27

Teamdroid,

22/03/2008 06:36:23
To Joyce MacMillan (I don't know if the authors of articles ever read the online feedback, but here goes): if we replaced the name "Alex Salmond" with "Robin Cook" in the article, would you still have written it? There's a politician few would ever accuse of taking a simplistic line, yet he had the courage to resign one of the 3 biggest jobs in British politics over Iraq. Odd, that.
28

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/03/2008 06:37:33
Wars can be either moral or immoral. Is SNP agin both sorts?
29

Joe Mellon,

Paris, France 22/03/2008 06:42:17
Scotsman editorial conference:
"Ok, the Iraq war is a hottish topic right now, and unfortunately Alex Salmond has been 100% vindicated in his principled stand, and is supported by the vast majority of Scottish people in that... London has told us to do our best - does anyone feel up to trying to spin that against him? ...
Bob? Ok thanks...."
30

John S,

22/03/2008 07:04:21
The simplistic bigger picture about the Iraq war.
Why Iraq - a combination of removing Saddam along with controlling the world’s second largest proven oil reserves.
Why Afghanistan - remove the Taleban so a 875-mile gas pipeline can be built across Afghanistan to transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India at a cost US$3.5 billion.
The bottom line these conflicts are about oil and gas, with we liberated Iraq from tyranny, we are now training Iraqi forces and providing the Iraqi people with security from some of the most vicious terrorists as the new excuses after no WMD's were found.
31

walter,

22/03/2008 07:18:22
Those Scottish soldier, I love it when I see that.
The truth is they are Scots who are soldiers They serve in the British army and are British soldiers.
Also when mentioning Scottish soldiers it seems to only be those Scots who serve in the Scottish regiments and even then they only seem to be talking about those Scots that serve in the Infantry battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland.
It is bad enough when politicians use British soldiers in what many believe (including soldiers)to be an illegal war (although no body that has the authority to declare it illegal has done so)but when some try to state they know that soldiers are not proud to be serving in a British military because it suits their cause is disgusting.


32

langtonian,

scotus 22/03/2008 07:23:09
It appears to escape the mind set of SNP voters that it is possible to be an independant Scot,within the UK.

SNP. supporters have a mind set so rigid in focus, so mentally restricted in relation to reality/Global politics, owing to an ingrained tendancy to live in the past.With a wish list,/so called Manifesto,that within 10 months since it's triuphalist introduction, was exposed to the light of day,as a magical panacea,as a cure all for Scotland.Currently uravelling with each day that goes bye.

In all probabillity we can look forward to Manifesto mk.2 at their forthcoming party conferance having more U turns built in than a proverbial Shank's toilet.
33

ennerdale27,

sale, cheshire 22/03/2008 07:27:22
before we beat ourselves (or anybody else, for that matter) up, just remenber that Saddam Hussein was a fascist dictator and mass murderer with hegemonic ambitions. He did mean harm - he would have caused harm given the opportunity.
As to the Taliban - thet DO have a simplistic agenda - all they want to do is Ismalise (in their narrow
sectarian fashion) enfeudalise and enslave every man, woman and child on this planet.
Finally, just consider - was there more mercy in Blair and Bush tham there was in Chamberlin and DeLadier who in the name of mercy saw the whole world in flames.
34

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 07:40:11
#26 - Presumably yo tell all your friends abroad when they express amazement that Scotand is not independent that independence is entirely in the hands of the Scottish people and that the only rwason Scotland is not independent is because in every single election that has ever been held in Scotland the majority of votes have gone to political parties that support the Union.

And specifically on the Iraq war, I am sure that you also tell your friends that after Alex salmond's repeated denunciations of the invasion, in 2005 Scottish electors again gave the Labour Party the single biggest lock of votes, while just over 50% of them voted for parties that supported the Iraq war.

Furthermore, I am sure that you have also consistently pointed out the key role that many Scottish government ministers - representing Scottish constituencies - played in taking the UK to war in Iraq, and that not one of them, not a single one, lost their seats in the 2005 election, which took place two years after the Iraq invasion.

To do otherwise, of course would be to portray the Scots as passive victims of a situation over which they have no control. It would be to portray us as weak, oppressed and incapable of taking control of our own destinies. And you wouldn't want to do that, would you?
35

erchie,

yon shady glen 22/03/2008 07:46:19
cross george..... Awa and morris dance roond the maypole ya muppet
36

brownlie,

glasgow 22/03/2008 07:54:06
"... the operation has been difficult, sometimes disastrous, for the Iraqi people..." Yes, Joyce, it is often difficult for children to walk when your legs have been blown off and it can be quite disastrous if your families and homes have been decimated. It is often difficult for innocent children and adults to comprehend why foreigners are raining bombs on them and it is often disastrous for over 2 million people to have to flee from their own country to escape being maimed or killed. Perhaps most of them think "well, we don't mind if a lot of us get killed as long as we have a democracy such as they have in the Utopia that we know as Britain whose reputation for sympathy and consideration for your fellow human beings is taken for granted. Tony Blair said that it is for our benefit and he would not lie. Willie Macleod, Crossed George and W.Smith know what is best for us so once we get our shattered bodies and lives together we will hold a big celebration of thanks for them. We must never retaliate otherwise we will be known as terrorists".
37

AJ Fife,

22/03/2008 08:02:03
Alex Salmond is spot on, regarding the appetite of the Armed Services for the current wars. It is to his eternal credit he recognised Blair's secret agenda and will be treated very kindly in the history books of the future - which is more than what can be said of Blair and Brown!

Assignment for Today:

Does the red of the George Cross depict the flow of blood from Africa, Asia, North America, Australasia and the Middle East, and is it directly attributable to 'British' imperialism? Discuss.
38

Socrates2,

22/03/2008 08:03:15
salmond he is so simplistic

what is it about "thou shalt not kill" does he not understand unlike the heroic warmonger Bush

amazing scotsman has a pop at Salmond not Bush

and the cry went up "free Barabas"-- nothting changes
39

Socrates2,

22/03/2008 08:05:32
@44
it was Blair's appeasement of bush that created this problem
40

donald,

glasgow 22/03/2008 08:08:28
Why does Labour HQ not provide a byline for these handouts?

Simple. The truth often is. It only gets complicated by such lies as the British State entangle themselves in.
41

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 08:11:06
It was not only the FM who was opposed to the Iraq War. Let's not forget the likes of Charles Kennedy, Ming Campbell and Robin Cook. All Scots, all unionists. And they were not alone.
42

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 08:12:20
#43

Judging by recent opinion polls, (you know those ones the Hootsmon studiously ignore), you had better brace yourself for a protracted spell of SNP Government.

Despite the best efforts of the labourtory media in general and this newspaper in particular, no-one has yet been able to lay a glove on Alex Salmond and Co.

With a circulation in terminal decline, (echoing a similar decline in membership of the Labour party), this (former) newspaper is becoming increasingly desperate in its attempts to discredit the Scottish Government.

Fair enough, they are entirely free to pursue whatever political agenda is demanded by their owners.
However, equally the Scottish Government is entirely free to decide where its advertising revenue is spent.
43

Gdgy,

dundy 22/03/2008 08:12:39
Salmond used the armed forces for his own political ends - what will he do if he has own army to play with???

I see the SNPites are excusing their head honcho and attacking the message, balming the unionist press - typical when you can't defend your position, attack the message, the messanger, or blame the bogey man
44

Gdgy,

dudny 22/03/2008 08:13:51
#51 Donald

Even in your frantic rantings to protect your SNP uuber lord you state that "they" are telling the truth...freudian!
45

Socrates2,

22/03/2008 08:14:51
that cry of "it wisnae us" often has an empty sound, and never quite rings true.

what empty vacous nonsense this is
does it apply to the people of Darfur
does it apply to Ghandhi
does it apply to MLK
does it apply to Salmond
does it apply to teh Flaklnad islanders

u know its when you read nonsense like this i am glad that newspaper circulation is plummeting. that article is madder than the maddest blogger would ever dream of posting on any newspaper site in a whole week anywhere in the UK
46

yockel,

22/03/2008 08:22:31
Go on give the Hootsmon a break, it is obviously trainee weekend. Have you seen the rest of the rubbish they are publishing today.
47

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 08:24:14
#54 - The nationalists on these boards like to portray the Scots as weak and powerless to shape their own destiny. In the nationalist mantra the Scots are victims and they are the oppressed. This allows them to blame everyone else for decisions and actions in which Scots are intimately involved and over which Scots have the opportunity to pass judgement through the ballot box.

Nationalists forget the fact that we gave the single biggest block of our votes to Labour in 2005, two years after the invasion of Iraq. They forget that Scots were intimately involved in taking the UK to war in 2003 and they forget that those Scots were accountable to Scottish electors in 2005 and were returnd to power and, more generally. And they forget that the Scots have never once - in more than a century of universal male suffrage and, this year, 80 years of universal male and female suffrage - given a majority of their votes t parties that oppose the Union and ant Scotland to withdraw from it.

They call unionists quislings, subservient, unpatriotic, in thrall to the English and so on; but time after time they paint Scots as passive victims who are ot capable of standing up for what they want. What a positive view of u Scots those nationalists have.
48

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 08:26:44
The most telling phrase in this piece is, "as Alex Salmond's words half-imply". Or, to put it another way, as Alex Salmond never actually said but let's pretend that he did for unionist propaganda purposes.
49

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 08:29:25
There's no byline for this article but it reads like Dorothy MacMillan, which is a pity because in amongst her usual thoughtful and interesting articles we get these occasional Britnat propaganda pieces. Ms MacMillan is not alone in this kind of Scottish journalism. I just wish our journalists woud have the courage and integrity to decline writing these sort of articles although I appreciate the significant monetary and professional cost of doing so.
50

Kyle,

Granton 22/03/2008 08:34:05
Nothing like a war to ensure that the Unionists use this as a tool to call for us to rally round the flag and revel in our Britishness and to sledgehammer those who date to option of independence.

The train is rolling with only a couple of more unscheduled stops to go.

51

Kyle,

Granton 22/03/2008 08:34:06
Nothing like a war to ensure that the Unionists use this as a tool to call for us to rally round the flag and revel in our Britishness and to sledgehammer those who date to option of independence.

The train is rolling with only a couple of more unscheduled stops to go.

52

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 08:38:21
#54 Gdgy

Contrary to your barely coherent ranting, there is no need for anyone to excuse, protect or defend Alex Salmond. His principled stand on the Iraq disaster has not been challenged.

Instead, what we have is unthinking individuals such as yourself trying desperately to excuse and defend a scurrilous and borderline dishonest piece of transparent political propagandising which any decent newspaper would be ashamed of.
53

Conway,

22/03/2008 08:43:19
The Labour government lied to us about WMD, and the Labour party took Britain to war on a lie and without a UN mandate. The weapons inspectors had Sadamn contained and yet we still have Labour apologists trying all sorts of excuses to make it seem right .The Labour party and the Torries are to blame for allowing this mess to be inflicted on us.
54

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 22/03/2008 08:44:02
I think this article is very shallow since it is comprised of several unexamined assumptions and coclusions that contain logical flaws,and some innacurate statements.

The big picture is never really identifies but there is a big picture that the anonymous writer failed to see.It is the destabalisation of a region that has fuelled violance and terrorism.Like the US found in Vietnam and the Russians discivered in Afgahanistan,it is easy to go in but harder to get out.While I accept that the reigme in Iraq was undemocratic,we do need ask whether it is correct to invade a country just because we do not like the leadership.Applying that logic to George Bush,much of the rest of the world could have used Bush as an excuse for invading the USA.Ridiculous? Yes of course.

The writer of this article shouls read the replies to Wendy Alexander's view that Alec Salmond should say nothing about Iraq,on the Herald website.They condemm her strongly.Of course we do not know how representative their views are but surveys of public opinion indicate that they refelect public opinion in Scotland extremely well.In fact,I get the impression from listening to people that both nationalists and unionists feel that the Iraq invasion should not have happened.In response to no 58,I do not think that unionists are traitors,I just disagree with them on some issues.People should not generalise the views of a few to all others that may share some of their aspirations.
55

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 08:44:05
#58 Border Scot

"...the Scots have never once - in more than a century of universal male suffrage and, this year, 80 years of universal male and female suffrage - given a majority of their votes t parties that oppose the Union and ant Scotland to withdraw from it"

You keep clinging to that past, sonny. The rest of us are moving on.
56

Pakeha Scot,

New Zealand 22/03/2008 08:45:45
Scotland's misfortune is to share a border with England. New Zealand was a British colony/dominion but is now independent though still has the queen as head of state. The population is 4 million plus so not much smaller than Scotland. It has a defence force but chose not to be part of the "Coalition of the Willing in Iraq" although it sent some troops to Afghanistan. It has a few small warships, no fighter aircraft but takes part in UN peacekeeping. The defence budget is not large which leaves money for health and education. The main use of ships and planes is to protect its economic zone from illegal fishing. New Zealanders are not afraid they will be the target of attack so why should Scots fear not being tied in to the Westminster driven war machine?
57

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 22/03/2008 08:45:56
#58

A lot of hot air and no substance! - oh and some downright fantasy thrown in for good measure.

The Scotsman (no their is a funny name for a British newspaper) - is as biased as the day is long.

Perhaps they should change their name to something mroe appropriate ...... any suggestions?
58

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 08:46:41
58 Border Scot

You are absolutely correct in stating that those who led this country to war were re-elected - that does not mean that voters voted in favour of murdering Iraqi. What you chose to ignore is that the only feasible alternative was for the Tories who also supported the war. You may recall that all through the election for the current and previous Scottish Parliament the news media were, on a daily basis, pumping out anti SNP propoganda and the Union campaign was based on negativity and untruths. They did not make any attempt to be constructive but voters were being subjected to scare stories and biased reporting and it worked to a certain extent. That is why headlines and articles such as the one above appear on a daily basis in the unbalanced stance taken by the Scotsman
59

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 08:48:24
#58 - In other words, you are not able to argue against anything that I have written. Why not just say that?
60

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 08:50:46
#70 - No, the alternative in Scotland was the SNP or the Liberal Democrats, both of whom opposed the war.

And what you are also saying is that, unlike you, most Scots are not capable of telling fact from fiction. Do you really hold your countrymen and women in such low regard?
61

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 08:51:40
#67 - Then why are you on a message board discussing a war that took place five years ago?
62

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 08:52:34
#68 - That's right, we Scots are such victims. Poor, wee us for sharing a border with the big, bad English, eh?
63

,

22/03/2008 08:53:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

Auckland Arab2,

22/03/2008 08:55:30
#58

As that unionist zealot (Mr Statistics 2007 you know who you are!!) continually likes to point out, 40% of 50% is hardly a majority, is it (its actually 20% of the electorate). The only people putting Scots down are people like you, certainly not me or any other nationalists. As for the article, well Tribune is more objective. Tomorrow expect a Blair vindicated over WMD story! Utter fairytale stuff. We don't need Blair, Brown or heaven help us Bush, lecturing us on the big picture. We can see it and its a bloody mess.
65

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 08:59:44
54. Gdgy

"using the armed forces for political ends"? Surely you refer to sending them to war based on lies, constructing a case where "the evidence was fitted to the case for war", and collaborating with rendition/ torture?
66

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 09:00:56
73 "fact from fiction"? Labour seemed to have a problem with that, WMD ready at 45 minutes...... duck and cover!
67

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 09:01:38
#74 Border Scot

"Then why are you on a message board discussing a war that took place five years ago?"

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the Iraq debacle is still going on.
68

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:03:33
#77 - So put another way, the vas majority of Scots were so incnsed by the Iraq war that they could not be bothered to go out and vote for parties that were opposed to it.

Do you not think it is putting Scots down when it is claimed they are not capable of telling fact from fiction, truth from propoganda? When they are portrayed as passive victims unable to decide their futures for themselves?
69

brownlie,

glasgow 22/03/2008 09:03:42
73 Border Scot,

No, unlike you, I hold my fellow Scots in great regard. So much so that, unlike you, I feel confident that they can run our own country. I also feel confident that they would never, ever, commit us to an illegal war. If my memory serves me right 2005 was a UK election but in the most recent Scottish election the electorate, despite constant anti-SNP propoganda in all the main newspaper, rejected the status quo and voted for a party with Scotland's - not the UK or the USA - best interests at heart.
70

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:04:59
#80 - But this article was not about that. Have you read it?
71

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:07:23
#82 - More nationalist myth making. Where have I ever said that i do not think Scotland could not function as an independent country? Are you so unsure of your own arguments that you have to lie about mine?

And, of course, the vast majority of Scots did not vote for the SNP in 2007. Which is why the SNP is a minority government.
72

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 09:11:18
81. It would help people distinguish fact from fiction if the new Labour government stopped ignoring the ruling from the Information Commissioner to publish the minutes related to the Iraq war. It would also help if New Labour published the Attorney General's first legal opinion on the legality (lack of) of this war. It would help people know what is going on if the new Labour government did not slap injunctions on SAS officers when they reveal UK government collaboration with rendition/ torture.

73

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 09:12:09
#83 Border Scot

"But this article was not about that. Have you read it?"

If you have read the article and yet believe it does not relate to the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, then your condition must give some cause for concern.
74

Vivas,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 09:12:40
Despite not seeming to want to own up to authoring this piece of prose on the on-line edition, the opening theatrical reference .... and the closing reference to the philosopher William (who he ?), easily marked this out as one of Joyce McMilanzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz efforts.

3/10 for prose, 2/10 for polemic ...which is about her usual score to be fair to her.
75

David MacVicar,

web 22/03/2008 09:13:44
"Alex Salmond, though now a very senior politician, still talks of war and peace like a man with clean hands, exonerated from guilt by his very Scottishness;"

'Simply' stomach churning stuff from the BritRag.

No wonder nobody put their name to this shameful opinion piece.
76

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 09:16:11
How low can this British Nationalist rag go?

Someday mwe might see..
The Scotsman to-day says it has taken the "unprecedented step" of making a front-page apology to Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.
"We do so because we accept a number of vitriolic articles in the newspaper have suggested the couple caused the death of Scotland and then covered it up.
"We acknowledge there's no evidence whatsoever to support this theory and that Alex and Nicola are completely innocent of any involvement in their country’s decline. We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted.
"As an expression of its regret, the Scotsman and Edinburgh Evening News has now paid a very substantial sum into the Independence Fund and we promise to do all in our power to help efforts to rebuild the Scottish Nation.
77

CRAGman,

22/03/2008 09:18:59
I recommend an Easter weekend in Sarajevo or Pristina.
78

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:20:04
#86 - In other words, it is about the past, not what is happening now. Remember I was rsponding originally to your rather fatuous statement: "You keep clinging to that past, sonny. The rest of us are moving on."
79

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:21:20
#87. 88.89 - Why not point out where the article is wrong? Surely you can do that, can't you?
80

Ken,

22/03/2008 09:21:52
#5 'Buy the paper and find out.'

Not on your life! Does anyone that has commented here buy the rag?
The nonesence that the scotsman prints is best value when read free.
81

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 09:23:18
We attacked Iraq to prevent weapons of mass destruction raining down on the UK with a forty five minute warning ?
82

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 09:25:00
84 Border Scot
Nationals, to me, are people who beleive in a Scottish Nation that are capable of governing itself as the name Scottish National Party suggests. The fact that you consistently deride nationists lead me, and no doubt anyone else who reads your posting on this site, to believe that you think the Scottish National Party or anyone who seeks self-determination, are in some way inferior to the status quo ofLabour, Tories and Lib Dems who for years have let this nation stagnate.
83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 09:25:52
94. Not forgetting the connections bewteen Saddam and Al Quaeda. And his purchase of Uranium in the Niger.
84

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 09:30:33
#91 Border Scot

"In other words, it is about the past, not what is happening now."

Of course it is about what is happening now. It is about Alex Salmond - who is First Minister NOW. It is about his stance on the Iraq disaster - which is happening NOW. It is about his recent statements on the matter of the ongoing tragedy in Iraq - which is a matter of widespread discussion NOW.

But most of all the "article" is about the Scotsman's continuing efforts to defame and undermine Scotland's elected leader. A campaign which, as is evident from the piece the rest of us are discussing even if you are not, is being conducted NOW.
85

Gothic Rose,

22/03/2008 09:30:42
I do believe that Crossed George,is really a Scottish Nationalist playing,a double blind.Oh Yes he is!
86

Unrepentant Dinosaur,

Scotland 22/03/2008 09:31:56
Border Scot

I think you are being rather simplistic to suggest that people re-electing a New Labour government suggests that a majority of Scots were in favour of the Iraqi war - or did I misconstrue your statements - if so accept my apologies in advance.

People vote for a variety of reasons: tradition for one is very powerful in Scotland,another is seeing no credible alternative (It doesn''t mean there isn't one- they just can't see one., fear is another - fear of change - Karl Marx stated that the proletariat were the most conservative (with a small c) of all hence it is often the bourgeoisie that lead so-called working class uprisings. They may also vote because the party manifesto ticks most of their personal boxes. This neither makes the electorate stupid nor the party they voted into power omniscient.

As a nationalist married to an English spouse, who as a matter of fact is also a supporter of Alex Salmond whom they feel to be one of the few politicians that actually stick to their principles for most of the time, I do not feel downtrodden by the southerners but I do feel there are many entrenched prejudices regarding the Act of Union that just are not so: the one about the English being generous by giving us back a larger proportion of our own money is hardy perennial.

My own view on independence is in fact not out of harmony with that of the unionists i.e. let's stop blaming Westminster for all our woes. However I go al little further: let's take full responsibility for our own destiny! If many are too scared to do that because the transition may be hard or there personal circumstances may be upset, I would ask, "Who's being parochial now?"

I really do think that trying to defend such a badly conceived article is carrying loyalty a little too far. If Salmond is such a bad character and a scoundrel why can yo not trust the Scots whom you say are not stupid or blind to work this out for themselves - or are you tacitly admitting that the fact i
87

Calum10,

22/03/2008 09:32:15
An utter contempible piece of commentary.

Before Iraq the UN represented the only forum for Global Order. After Iraq the UN has been greatly diminished and we have Global Disorder.

People who face the truth, make a difficult judgement and make hard decisions are the ones who have the ability to lead.

Harold Wilson did that over Vietnam, and we should not foregt that and be grateful for it.

Then we have the liars, the crooks, the war mongers, the New Labour project, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Wendy Alexander, Des Browne, etc. These people lied, continue to lie and attack those who tell the simple truth about Iraq. These things have brought blood-shed and dis-order to our world. They are not fit to lead.

Pray tell the person who hides behind this piece what has Alex Salmond to do with any of this. Salmond took a principled stance like millions of others and stuck to it. Salmond like million of others was proven right.

Salmond's only crime here is that 5 years he has been criticised for showing leadership on this very issue. Something that Harold Wilson did over 40 years ago.

As I said, an utter contempible piece of commentary.
88

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 09:33:32
#97 AM2

"Why are pro-SNP posters incapable of answering critique constructively?"

Where is the "critique"?
89

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 09:33:53
97. ....AM2 posts his constructive argument related to the issue of the thread, free of rhetoric and bombast.

90

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:33:55
#95 - I believe that Scots are capable of governing themselves and I also believe that should the Scots ever vote for this to happen then it should happen.

However, I also believe that it is in Scotland's best interests to remain a part of the UK because it wors best for us politically, socially and economically. On a personal level I also feel a strong affinity with other parts of the UK.

I respect all nationalists who are capable of expressing their beliefs rationally and without distorting the views of those who do not agree with them. What I object to, hiwever, is nationalist rhetoric that implies the Scots are somehow so weak and so submisive that they sit by powerlessly while a foreign government dictates their lives for them.

This is not what the SNP says, but it is what many nationalists say - particularly on these message boards. Their contempt for their fellow Scots makes me sick.
91

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:36:35
#98 - In other words, the debate curently taking place is framed by what was said and done in the past.

So how can you explain your original statement: ""You keep clinging to that past, sonny. The rest of us are moving on."

Or is it just that the past I have referred to does not fit in with your prejudices?
92

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:43:20
#100 - Thank-you for your constructive comments.

I think it would be fair to say that most people in the whole of the UK opposed the Iraq invasion. I do not thin it is something that pits Scots against the rest. I also note the prominent role in the anti-war movement played by well-known Scottish unionists such as Ming Campbell, Charles Kennedy and Robin Cook.

My point about the votes was not that Scots had voted for the Iraqi war, but that they had not chosen actively to vote against it when given their first opportunity to do so. In fact, like voters in other parts of the UK they actually cast most of their votes for pro-War parties. Just as they also always cast most of their votes for pro-Union parties.
93

FM in Dundee,

22/03/2008 09:43:52
At least 600 thousand of our brothers and sisters have died in Iraq as a result of Blair and Bush's illegal war.

As much as some labourites would like us to, decent minded folk will not forget their party's disgusting role in this outrage.
94

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 09:46:35
By no stretch of anyone's imagination could Chubby Cheeks be called a "front-line politician" given that he is the "leader" of a rag tag and bobtail motley lot of sad nationalists, but he was right in his anti war stance and he is right to continue to object to Britain's support of Dubya and the oil war. Sadly, it is not that he heas any influence over anyone or anything!
95

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 09:48:09
104 Border Scot
I have looked through nationalist posting on this site and I cannot identify those who regard their fellow Scots and being weak and passive - as a matter of fact they display the very opposite. I also notice a change of tone in your postings. Unsuprisingly you appear to have garnered AM2's support.
96

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 09:49:20
#105 Border Scot

"So how can you explain your original statement: ""You keep clinging to that past, sonny. The rest of us are moving on.""

You seem to have forgotten your reference to historical voting patterns to which this was a response. You also seem determinedly oblivious to the fact that Scotland's politics underwent a very significant shift as recently as 2007.

Even the ostriches and dinosaurs of the British Labour Party in Scotland have realised that the way the Scottish people voted 50 - or even 5 years ago is no longer any kind of guide to how they will vote in the near future. You know you're seriously out of touch when you are playing catch-up with that lot.
97

GM,

22/03/2008 09:50:04
ALEX SALMOND ATE MY HAMSTER!
============================

In an astonishing story uncovered under the FOI Act by an anonymous journalist at this paper, it can be revealed that Alex Salmond ate a 5 year old's hamster, which was presented to him as he did a 'walkabout' tour of Stirling.

The same journalist can also reveal that Salmond drinks the blood of babies and worships naked at the feet of a carved effigy of Satan (a model apparently that has the cloven feet and legs of a goat, the chest of a horse, the head of tony blair and the teeth of his wife Cherie).

Lord Foulkes has commented that 'it was only a matter of time before Salmond's personal life caught up with him', as he headed for the bar.

Professor Arthur Midwinter said that Salmond's hamster eating escapades had cost the economy 14 bazillion pounds in a formula he himself has made up and confirmed as accurate. This is the equivalent of £38,000,000 for every taxpayer in Scotland.

In a related articlce in our sister paper - The Sunday Sport - it can be revealed that Salmond has hidden from the Scottish Nation our store of chemical and nuclear weapons on the moon. 2 Green MSP's were shocked and disgusted by this revelation and immediately called for the return of the tolls on the forth road bridge.
98

,

22/03/2008 09:51:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
99

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 09:52:07
#101 - I am slightly confused by your argument.

Are you saying that Salmond has been proved right the Iraq invasion was illegal? Or are you saying that he has been proved right it was wrong? If it is the former, can you tell me when the Iraq invasion was declared illegal and by whom? If it is the latter, how can we possibly know yet whether the war was right or wrong? If, in 10 years time, Iraq is a peaceful democracy - something it has never previously been - isn't it possible that most Iraqis will conclude that, despite their terrible sufferings, in the end the war was actually right? And wouldn't we then, as british citizens and as Scots, be proud of the role that our country played?

Perhaps the only think we can say right now is that we were taken to war on the back of lies and deceit. Salmond is right about that, but then so are many other people as well.
100

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 09:55:07
#107 Border Scot

"...they had not chosen actively to vote against it when given their first opportunity to do so."

It is simplistic to the point of silliness to imagine that a general election could be about a single issue. Even an issue as significant as the Iraq disaster.
101

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 09:57:01
#61
That should be Joyce MacMillan not Dorothy, apologies to Dorothy!
102

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 09:57:08
43

Its got nothing to do with the past and everything to do with the present and the future. The last 300 years in the union are all in the past.

"An Independent Scot within the UK"??? Independent of what exactly??
103

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 09:57:49
114. The UK government declared the war illegal in effect when they tabled a second UN SCR authorising force, which was not passed. The invasion did not have UN support. The invasion was predicated on the presence of WMD in Iraq. The UK government refuses to publish its own Attorney General's original opinion on the legality of the war. Robin Cook, the former UK Foreign secretary, declared it illegal. A senior lawyer at the Foreign Office resigned in disgust, decalring the action illegal.

Salmond and others who opposed the war have been proved right on various grounds - that the inavasion has been devastating to civilians, that the invasion would destabilise the region and the world, that the invasion would do nothing to counter terrorism, that the invasion would further worsen anti-Western feeling among Muslim countries, and on the lnegth of the required engagement. Salmond also called for, after the invasion, removal of US and UK troops and their replacement by a UN force drawn from Muslom countries - again, in retrospect, a sensible move.
104

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:00:26
~110 - let me help you. Here are a few examples:

"Scotland could do so much for the good of this planet if liberated from the Trident warmongers"

"We in the supporters of the Right of the Scottish People to remove themselves from an illegal Act of Union and to take control of their country to try make things better for the People of the Scottish Nation by repairing the poverty and disastrous mismanagement of our Country by a foreign power, who treated us in their Parliament as nothing more than second class people who were a mere afterthought."

"Britain is not founded on nationhood but on a tacit agreement between several nations. The inability of unionists to accept or admit this fact, in our case, is the measure of their contempt for Scotland as a nation. They simply do not see it as one."

"And, know something else? Absolutely everyone you meet in any other country who has a precise awareness of Scotlandàs positions - every single person I've encountered - they want Scotland to be independent and cannot, for the life of them, understand why it isn't.
They, you see, take independence as a given. The thought of not being independent, of sacrificing their autonomy for a far bigger neighbour, would never occur to them, would never be accepted and could only happen, as in the past, by force."

"Scotland's misfortune is to share a border with England."

105

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:00:43
#112
LOL
106

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:03:39
#111 - The simople fact is when given their first opportunity to express an opinion on the Iraq invasion, the Scottish people gave a majority of their votes to pro-War parties and failed to vote out asingle member of the Labour government that had taken Scotland and the UK to war.

No-one is denying that 2007 was a hugely significant election, but one of us is trying to wish away all previous elections held in Scotland.
107

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:04:10
#114 Border Scot

"...we were taken to war on the back of lies and deceit. Salmond is right about that, but then so are many other people as well."

The piece isn't attacking other people. It is attacking Alex Salmond. A thinking person would be asking themselves why. Just as they would be asking themselves what basis there is for this attack. And, as a thinking person, they would have to admit that there is no such basis to be found among the unsupported assumptions, fallacious conclusions and blatant distortions of the piece under discussion.
108

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:04:45
121. And yet Unionists attribute the SNP win in 2007 in large part to Iraq. I wish they stop facing in all directions at once.
109

GM,

22/03/2008 10:05:34
@118

some good, some not so good in your post.

'Illegal' is an emmotive word. You present some facts about the UN etc, but you haven't quoted the legislation that was broken by entering the war. Don't even think about stating 'international law' because quite frankly thats an urban myth and holds no country to terms.

Not that I'm defending the war mind - just that you'd need to present a lot more evidence to me before I believe it was 'illegal'.

In fact 'war' and 'illegality' in the same sentence does seem strange.

The war was devatating to innocent civilians but then, so was the regime the west was attempting to remove.

The war did nothing to counter terrorism - ok fine.

Anti-western feeling? From some countries yes, my gut feeling in Iraq is no.

Salmond's suggestion that a muslim force should take over (although could work), I believe would simply deteriorate into a relglious 'civil' war... not a good idea in my book.
110

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 10:07:57
44

So what?? our governments are not above supporting even assisting evil dictators as part of their foreign policy and when they oppose them its not because they are evil but because they have their own political agendas in doing so which in fact may also be evil.
Its never about right or wrong it is always about political policy.

So lets no have any more of this holier than thou bullsh*t especially when yer trying to push a zionist agenda.
111

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:08:39
#118 - But only history will be able to tell us whether the invasion was wrong. That is my point. It is far too early to tell.

Yes, it was handled disastroubsly by the Americans; yes, we were lied to; yes, it has caused further instability. But whether these are short-term consequences or longer-term ones, we just cannot know.

And, as far as I can see, whether the invasion was illegal or not is not actually something that can be objectively judged. It is a matter of opinion.
112

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:09:44
#118 Ayrshire Scot™

"Salmond and others who opposed the war have been proved right on various grounds - that the inavasion has been devastating to civilians, that the invasion would destabilise the region and the world, that the invasion would do nothing to counter terrorism, that the invasion would further worsen anti-Western feeling among Muslim countries, and on the lnegth of the required engagement."

In short, the very "bigger picture" which the shallow-minded author of this shameful piece baldy asserts Alex Salmond "misses".
113

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 10:10:33
45

Aye and no doubt if he had they would now think we are a nation of gibbering idiots and I for one would find it hard to dicredit their reasoning for thinking so.
114

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:12:33
124. Invasion of a country without specific UN authorisation and approval is illegal. The UK government sought a second resolution authorising force and did not get it - why did they try for it if they didn't think it was necessary to provide UN sanction to their actions.

AS for a Muslim force, it was precisely to avoid a religious war that this was suggested - AlQuaeda, absent from Iraq pre-invasion, have used the presence of Western armies there as a rallying cry. Replacing UK/ USA forces, who had instigated the invasion, with forces from Muslim countries who could not be accused of starting the aggression for a variety of reasons, might, have reduced tensions and the capacity of AL Quaeda and others to exploit the situation.
115

iain morrison,

nairn 22/03/2008 10:12:42
W Smith,Middle East 22/03/2008 02:05:08
Maybe the Salmond-istas can kindly inform me when exactly did the muslim arabs become anti-war PACIFISTS.-SAlMOND HAS NEVER STATED THE ABOVE IF YOU MUST BE A BIGGOT AT LEAST BE A WELL INFORMED BIGOT!

During the 6-day war with Israel in 1967? YOU MEAN WHEN ISREAL ATTACKED FIRST?

Or was it the Yom Kippur War several years later?IS THAT NO WHEN EGYPT INVADED THE PART OF EGYPT ISREAL HAD STOLEN IN THE ABOVE?

The Iran-Iraq war perhaps?A TRADGEDY BUT YOUR POINT IS?

(The Palestinian 'fatwa' or uprising is sanctioned by the UN and therefore 'legal', eh Salmond?)I HOPE YOU NEVER HAVE YOUR HOME STOLEN OR YOUR CHILD RUN OVER BY A TANK.

The fact that Salmond thinks arab muslims are pacifists tells me he knows f*** all about the Middle East or he's trying to cover for his arab muslim friends.THE FACT THAT YOU THINK HE THINKS THAT TELLS ME YOUR STATEMENT IS BEST APPLIED TO YOU ABOUT ALMOST EVERYTHING

In my opinion, Salmond is a Palestinian supporter who becomes anti-war when the side he's supporting takes a hiding. IS IT SO WRONG TO BE A PAESTINIAN SUPPORTER IS EVERYONE INCLUDING ALL ARABS AND JEWS NOT ENTITLED TO LIVE IN PEACE IN THEIR OWN HOMES.

He's a decietful kiddy-on pacifist who speaks to a regime in Iran that's committed to wiping Israel off the map.LET ME SEE THE US, UK, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA and FRANCE ALL TALK TO IRAN, TALKING IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN WAR YOU MUPPET

Like Egypt's President Nasser and Palestinian Yasser Arafat, Salmond and Galloway will go to the grave without seeing Israel defeated.I DON'T BELIEVE SALMOND WANTS TO SEE ISREAL DEFEATED ONLY LIVING IN PEACE AND HARMONY WITH ITS NEIGHBOURS OBVIOUSLY A CONCEPT BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION.

UNLUCKY!- YOU REALLY ARE TO BE BORN SO BLIND AS WILL NOT SEE
116

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:12:54
#122 - I am not defending the article, though I think it makes some decent points: especially when it talks about Salmond's words implying the experiences and views of Scottish soldiers are different to the experiences and views of other UK soldiers in Iraq.

My main target, however, are those cyber-nats claiming that Scotland was somehow dragged kicking and screaming into the Iraq war, when all the evidence points to the fact that this was not the case.
117

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 10:13:49
119 Border Scot
I see no evidence of weakness or passivity in your quotations as a matter of fact they appear to be individuals who want the betterment of this nation.
In view of your earlier remarks about Scots voting for those who voted for the war can I draw your attention to a poll of over 8000 conducted by msn uk. 62% voted that UK/USA had no right to attack Iraq. A further 26% said that despite Saddam Hussien there was no justification for attacking Iraq. A total of 88% out of a poll of more people than are generally polled voted against the war - which was not really a war - just the brutalisation of a nation.
118

langtonian,

scotus 22/03/2008 10:13:58
A fair sprinkling of SNP supporters in "comments"today are seen to take the "pinge" the "huff"at Scotsman articles that do not comply with their particular line of reasoning.This ongoing past/present/and future denegration of a quality paper is at best shamefull,at worst has an historical precedent,when the Nazi propogandist Goebles was espousing his maniacle bile upon all and sundry who were not toeing the Nazi line.

The SNP apologists might care to reflect that we enjoy an open policy on comment, in a democratic country,heaven forbid that should change,we would then plumet to the depths of a free press expression only"acceptable" to those who would dictate to others their "jaundiced predjudicies"
119

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 10:14:04
55

Not in the habit of reading other posts before posting yer ain p*sh then???
120

GM,

22/03/2008 10:14:13
@128

That must be a record - you held back until post 128 before playing the race card.

(racist against ulster unionists!!! hahahaha I laughed so hard I almost passed my fags around)
121

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:14:44
#127 Border Scot

"But only history will be able to tell us whether the invasion was wrong. That is my point. It is far too early to tell."

What a truly moronic argument! By this inane logic the fact that Germany eventually turned into a stable democracy indicates that the whole Nazi era was "right". Sheer idiocy!
122

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:15:22
127. 800,000 civilian dead, 2.1 million refugees, large parts of Iraq now largely run by Muslim fundamentalist militias who execute women for going out alone, cholera epidemic in large areas due to shattered infra-structure, AL Quaeda who were not there before and very much there now, no decrease in global terrorism...... I think we can already say the invasion has not been a success.
123

John S,

22/03/2008 10:15:27
#112-GM: LOL
124

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:17:38
#121
Scotland changed at that election, for the first time the unionist's unrelenting anti-SNP, ant-independence campaign of lies, fears and smears failed. The SNP maintained their opinion poll lead all the way from before the start of the campaign right up to the election itself. The only media support for the SNP came from the Sunday Herald on the last Sunday before the election.
The writer of this article refers to good times and bad times for the union. The unionist media and politicians are still in denial. Scotland is changed forever. Labour (and Gordon Brown if he lasts that long) will be out at the next Westminster election. The SNP will be going into the next Holyrood campaign with their only main rival out of office in Westminster, with their own effect on the Scottish people of raising expectations far above Scottish unionist regionalism and dependency, and by the time of that election in 2011 we wil have had another three years of anti-SNP 'lies, fears and smears'. The poison that didn't work in 2007 will be even less effective in 2011. The past is yours, the future is ours.
125

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:17:58
133. Scotland participates in the war, and Scottish soldiers serve there, because Scots have chosen democratically and freely to remain part of the UK, I agree. If Scots do not want to continue to participate in this or future UK wars, they have the option of voting for independence.

I do think that there should be a full, independent inquiry into this disastrous foreign policy mis-adventure, and it shameful Labour MPs wont back such.

126

GM,

22/03/2008 10:18:50
@135

Ah! the SNP=Nazi line...

Your hypocrisy is astonishing, seeking to reduce the input from what you see as extremists whilst clammering on about free speech!!

God, thats a good one.

For what its worth, this paper may bring out the worst in SNP supporters simply because of its tired, repeated, baselesss but ceaseless propaganda.

It still frankly amazes me to see the SNP in government given the horrendous press coverage they received in the build up to the election. At least since then, some publciations have taken a slightly more balanced view.

The scotsman however simply cranked up the bile, lies, and downright tosh they continually print over the SNP and Salmond in particular.
127

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:20:52
135. Langtonian, you have carelessly ommitted any point and any sanity from your post. Please re-post and include these. And leave out your frankly ludicrous Nazi stuff, this just gives the mental image of a dribbling loon, sitting wearing his sister's training bra and a tin-foil hat, madly bashing at his keyboard.
128

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 10:21:39
58

Well lets face it it takes all types but lets not also forget the gullible, the Scots who no matter what transpires or how they are affected by it will always put their faith in what people like you tell them.
The kind of people who would go out and vote for Labour the day after somebody broke into their house wearing a Labour party rosette and ate their kids.
We seem to have an abundance of them which is why we are still in the union.
129

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:22:32
#134 - So you do not think, for example, that the word "liberated" implies conquest; that talk of a "foreign power" implies Scots do not have self-determination; of "sacrificing autonomy for a far bigger neighbour" does not imply subjugation?

Clearly you have a very different grasp of the English language to mine.

However, if you are saying that we Scots are free, have the right to self determination and so have full control over our lives and the destiny of our country, then we are in full agreement.

And I have no doubts that most people in the UK were opposed to the Iraq invasion.
130

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 10:23:17
Is this the start of the softening up propaganda to prepare us for the invasion of Iran I wonder??
131

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:23:49
143. Are the SNp the only party in the world who described the Iraq war as illegal. Alot of USA politicians, French politicians, Russians, Indians, Canadians, Irish, Swiss etc and even some other UK parties have described it in such a way, including Robin Cook and a senior FO lawyer who resigned. Therefor your rather sterile attempt to describe the war as "illegal" as SNP spin is as pathetic as it is meaningless, and speaks only to your pathological obsession with the SNP.
132

Stepford Nat,

22/03/2008 10:23:53
Alex can do no wrong, and should not be criticised.
Any paper that does so should be shut down.
Any poster that criticises him must be a unionist.
Join us now, you know you want to www.snp.org
133

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 10:24:36
144

A simple No would have sufficed.
134

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:25:16
#138 - No, it tells us that despite the hundreds of thousands of deaths, the brutal six year war and the terrible economic consequences, Britain was right to declare war on Germany in 1939 and to stick to that decision however appalling things seemed at the time. Put it this way, if war had not be declared, if britain and other countries had not made huge sacrifices, Germany would not have bcome a democracy and there would not be democracy in most of Europe today.
135

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:26:01
143. AM2 - LOL. Are you saying that Trident nuclear missiles are not W"eapons of Mass Destruction"? Could you please tell me, in terms of the destruction such weapons cause, how I can describe them differently? What is the unionist, obsessive, new-speak term for nuclear war heads these days - weapons of thermo-nuclear event induction over a 50 mile radius, best operated froma distance?
136

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:27:26
#139 - I think we will have to disagree. I think five years on is far too early to tell. Though I do not deny the terrible sufferings of the Iraqi people or the current instability in the middle east.
137

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:28:59
#135
A free but balanced media is recognised as essential for a true democracy, the completely one sided media we have means we don't have a full democracy - that's how serious the situation is in Scotland and why it concerns a lot of people.
138

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:29:02
#141 - Or we have a hugely unpopular Labour government in Westminster and it will be soundly beaten at the next set of elections.
139

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:29:05
#133 Border Scot

"...when it talks about Salmond's words implying..."

Actually, HALF implying. But that's good enough for some.

"...cyber-nats claiming that Scotland was somehow dragged kicking and screaming into the Iraq war..."

Not sure such claims were ever made outside your imagination. I certainly haven't seen them. I have seen evidence which suggests ant-war sentiment was stronger in Scotland than in some other parts of the UK. So, to the extent that we were all "dragged kicking and screaming" into this mess, perhaps Scotland needed just that little bit more dragging.

Of one thing I am as certain as it is possible to be. An independent Scotland would not so readily have joined the coalition of the duped.
140

GM,

22/03/2008 10:31:47
@150

Alex does and will do wrong, he is as open to critcism as any other msp, mp or indeed person. The one proviso is that criticism as always should be based upon facts, not spin and political bias.

Any paper that publishes the amount of high profile dross as the Scotsman deserves to be shut down, or at least placed on the correct part of the shelves in WH Smith beside the comics and the sunday Sport (see my post at 112).

I criticise Salmond and I vote SNP. I believe in an independant scotland. That makes your statement that anyone who critices him a unionist, as false.

So, sorry, thanks for your post but as per most of the stories in this journal, it ranks quiet highly on the pishometer.
141

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:32:46
#152
That is pure speculation even without taking into account that it was Britain and France that declared war on Germany, not the other way round.
142

GM,

22/03/2008 10:33:10
@154,

Last post form me on racism as I know what you are trying to do (seen it too often)

Ulster unionists are not a race so to belittle them for being 'ulster unionist' cannot, by defintion, be racist.
143

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:33:12
#156 - Why not start a paper that prints a point of view you agree with? What is to stop you doing that? Clearly if there is a market for such a newspaper it will grow, it will attract advertising and it will attract financial backers. Or are you talking about forcing existing papers to print what you decide is acceptable?
144

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:33:30
158. A "hal-implication" in the hand is as good as 2 fabrications in the bush
145

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:33:34
#160
That is really desperate, everybody knows that all nuclear weapons are WMDs.
146

Gtj,

Dundee 22/03/2008 10:34:32
Salmond's simplistic anti-war rhetoric misses bigger picture -

By "bigger picture", I take it you mean the amount of profit Halliburton and Bush are making from an illegal war.

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6008

"The act of sending young men and women to risk their lives is never easy" - especially when it is for no other reason than making money.
147

Richardinho,

22/03/2008 10:34:58
It's a bit of a dilemma for nationalists; What attitude to take to those institutions which are both very much Scottish but also very much British? Do you dismiss them because of the British aspect, or do you embrace the Scottish part of them?

In fact the concept of Scottish nationalism is of a 'velvet divorce'; A fair division of possessions followed by an amicable separation. An independent Scotland will still need a military of some sorts-that will almost certainly be based on the existing Scottish regiments of the British army.

Salmond's rhetoric may appear simplistic (he is making a political speech after all) but the nationalist position is actually quite nuanced, and takes account of practical realities rather than catering for simplistic emotion, which would be all to easy.
148

Stepford Nat,

22/03/2008 10:35:17
159
Closet unionist. You should be ashamed
149

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:35:20
160. The term "weapon of mass destruction" refers to a weapon that causes massive destruction. Trident is such a weapon. I ask again why it is not accurate to describe Trident as a WMD. And what possible use of such a weapon, designed to destroy life in 100 mile radius, is there that would not be in some way "malicious"?
150

Transparent?,

Scotland 22/03/2008 10:35:21
Once again we 'see' the blind stupidity of the SNP.

It was not the war against a dictator that was stupid, it was the manner in which it was thrust upon us, that was stupid. And the man who started it, has now walked away.
151

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:35:34
#163
"Or are you talking about forcing existing papers to print what you decide is acceptable?"

No.
I am describing the situation as it is. Do you find the current situation acceptable?
152

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:37:17
160. People all over the world refer to nuclear weapons as WMD. You yet again reveal a pathological and quite creepy obsession with the SNP that clearly blinkers to you to the world. People all over the world have called the Iraq war illegal, and denounce nuclear weapons as WMD, but you think both descriptions only attributable to the SNP for some kind of spin. Get some perspective and stop embarrassing yourself.
153

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:38:17
#161 - I said that Britain declared war on Germany. And, of course, we do not kow for certain that an unfetterd and triumphant Nazi Germany would have abandoned the idea of the "1,000 Year Reich" and instead embraced democracy. But, on the balance of probabilities, my guess is that it would not have done. And that, for this reason as well as many others, Britain and other countries were right to take the stand we did.
154

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 10:40:21
#172 - I find the current situation in Scotland very similar to the current situation in most other democratic countries. It is what happens when you give people free speech.
155

GM,

22/03/2008 10:40:53
@163

so you'd be happy then for any paper to print as much dross about you and your family then?
I suppose in your book thats just fine given its all about free speech and you could go an set up your own paper to counter?

What a facile and idiotic view you have of journalism in this country... but you have my pity. Given this rag prints stuff you support, you blindly accept it all as 'fact', without question. Thats the *really* sad state of journalism overall in this country.
156

Richardinho,

22/03/2008 10:41:17
#174 I have grave doubts about the wisdom of the second world war. I don't believe allying with Stalin to take over half of Europe was the right thing to do.
157

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:41:40
#152 Border Scot

You opt for the pick-'n'-mix version of history. You take a good outcome and trace it back to something "we" did. Disregarding everything else. Thus, "we" can never be wrong. Anything "we" have ever done has only ever had a good outcome. And if there is no good outcome? "We" just wait until things improve and then claim the credit.

Positively Orwellian!
158

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 22/03/2008 10:45:01
Salmond takes delight in engaging with any opportunity he sees fit that allows him to have a dig at Westminster so none of us will be surprised by this latest development as he pursues the Nats "holy grail" of so-called Scottish "independence". The article highlights the burden of responsibility any nation with armed forces at their disposal has to face from time to time, but Salmonds cheap shots fail to reflect the dignity that goes with the ultimate responsibility and thats where he will time and again fall short as our First Minister. He lacks the dignity and the statesmanship necessary to be a real leader of our nationhood.

Yes the war in Iraq was misguided in its aims and that was recognised by the French and Germans in particular, as well as by most politicians in the UK apart from the Tories and the Labour parliamentary "fodder" that voted through with Mr Blair at the time. They will have to live with that "mistake" for the rest of their lives but that does not excuse Mr Salmonds posturing and his principle desire point score yet again.
159

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:46:56
#171 Transparent?

"It was not the war against a dictator that was stupid..."

Indeed it was "stupid". It was, as many opined beforehand and as events have confirmed, a "stupid" adventure in every way imaginable.

But not half as stupid as imagining that it was a "war against a dictator" at all.
160

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 10:48:03
#180 Illiberal of Fife


(so-called Scottish "independence".)

Eh? It's either independence or it's not, what's 'so called' about it?
161

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:48:24
180. That post just shows a principle desire to point score about the SNP.
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:49:17
180. I saw Nicol Stephens point scoring about Iraq at FMQs this week. He misses no opportunity to attack Westminster policies he disagrees with.
163

Queen D,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 10:53:05
" This is not about regime change , this is about WMDs capable of deployment in 45 minutes" A Liar.

Simplistic enough for you??
164

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 10:54:33
#180 Liberal for life

"...that does not excuse Mr Salmonds posturing..."

What posturing? He is a politician. He made a political speech. No part of which was objectionable on any rational grounds. How does this become "posturing" simply because it is Alex Salmond doing it and not one of those unionist politicians whose lies and warmongering you are so eager to gloss over.
165

Red Tower,

Dunoon 22/03/2008 10:54:46
I was a card-carrying member of the Labour Party for 32 years and it was Salmond's attitude to the Iraq war that caused me to defect and vote Nationalist.( Incidentally I am still-luke warm about independence.)

On the one hand we had a Labour government committing our troops, English as well as Scottish, to a war on the basis of lies and a monstrously crude distortion of facts. And on the other we had a politician who recognised this subterfuge and had the guts to stand up and denounce it.

It was at this stage I realised that the Labour Party had deserted folk like me. So I tore up my card and sent the shreds to Tony Blair. An underling wrote back thanking me for my services to the Party in the past.

As to liberal intervention into other countries when faced with cruel rule within its borders. Of course there is a case for it. But it must be done via the UN.
Acting within this context we should contribute to an international force if we are to be seen as a country that cares internationally. This is the clean way to act. It is nothing like a tatty little deal hatched up by Blair and Bush.

We constantly hear from Blair and Bush that their "compassion" took them, and us, into Iraq. But there were far greater atrocities elsewhere. I don't see Brown and Bush even yet, mounting expeditionary forces into Dafur. No, the big difference is that Iraq has one of the biggest reserves of oil in the World. And Bush got the Presidency on the basis of massive financial backing from the oil industry. It is all as squalid as that.

So 5 years on what is the baseline? We now have almost 200 of our troops killed, almost 4000 American troops killed and estimates of up to 1,000,000 Iraqis killed.

The displacement of Saddam has resulted in even greater hardship for Iraqis. Religious fundamentalists rule the land with their own private armies.The Christian community has fled the country and women who refuse to wear headscarves are being killed in the streets.

Terror a
166

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 10:56:08
#175
But the crrent media situation in this country is not the same as in most others. All the main print media support unionism and are against the SNP. This alone would be bad enough but what we have seen over the years is a rabid hostility rather than a reasoned opposition to the SNP/independence, and we have the Scotsman fabricating news items, suppressing others, and distorting the rest.
I must go now but will return to read your reply, if you do.
167

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 10:56:39
186. Electric Hermit. I think Liberal for Life will now explain how Nicol Stephens comments on Iraq at FMQs this week were not posturing or critical of Westminster, but Salmonds comments on Iraq the same day were.
168

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 11:00:30
143

So youre now going to prove the legallity of the war then??

" prescription charges as a “tax on ill-health”,

Dont have a problem with this why do you???

the “anti-Scottish alliance” of unionist parties,

It just sounds less dishonest than saying
the "pro-Scottish alliance" of unionist parties

the “unfair” council tax,

So you think the SNP should have stated they oppose the council tax and wish to replace it because they think it is a "fair" tax????

Wendy Alexander as a “human shield”

Aye right enough what do you suggest we replace the "Human" with???

our nuclear deterrent as “WMDs

Maybe if we described our WMDs as our nuclear deterent instead then???

independence as “normality

Hmm I suppose we could ditch the "ity"

"the entirely unproven term “illegal war"

Arent you supposed to prove the legallity of a war before you start it and not the illegality??
So wheres the proof of the legality and if there isnt any then doesnt that make it illegal???

“London Labour"

Hmm Labour in London maybe?? Labour fae London?? Westminster Labour?? English Labour?? any of em would do instead I suppose.

The debate on the legality or otherwise is highly technical and impartial expert opinions differ. Summary of key issues:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4482029.stm

If you want to continue asserting illegality, perhaps you could first deconstruct the argument that UNSC 678 and 1441 were a sufficient basis.

Bullsh*t the legallity should have been establish before the start and it never was and in fact you have to construct the argument that the UN resolutions 678 and 1441 covered the war with a legal precedent in international law which they clearly dont.

Now excuse me for a minute while I laugh my a*se off at that pathetic effort of a post.








169

MacFhraing,

Callanish 22/03/2008 11:04:21
180."He lacks the dignity and the statesmanship necessary to be a real leader of our nationhood".

Yes, clearly we need someone like Jack McConnell. Henry MacLeish, or Wendy if we wish to reach these heights.

170

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 11:06:12
160

Nukes are weapons of mass destrucion and it would be disengenuous to deny this are you denying this???

Are you in fact claiming that the UKs arsenal of nuclear weapons are not weapons of mass destruction then??
171

william c,

sheffield 22/03/2008 11:06:17
Scotland is subsidised by England, Wales, and Northern England, to the tune of £1,800 per Scot.
when this is withdrawn and Scotland go it alone the subsidisers will celebrate as Scotland empties and the Scots all head south. Mr Salmon will be first in line.
172

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 11:09:12
178

Ah lets see who he is planning to post as next.
173

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 11:14:53
#179 - No, I have a very definite opinion on Britain's role in WW2, which I believe was almsot wholly positive. You have absolutely no idea of my general historical outlook, but if you wish to invent things and attribue them to me, what can I do?
174

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 11:17:55
#193 Thank you for that incredibly insightful input to the debate William C of Sheffield.

Are you suggesting Mr Salmond will be first in line to leave Scotland for England or something a little more sinister involving blindfolds and walls?
175

GM,

22/03/2008 11:18:10
@193

3 words for you - I will give you the middle one and some other clues. See if you can guess the rest...

N _ r _ _ Sea O _ l

and then think about where your (alleged) £1,800 subsidy coems from and in which direction.
176

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 11:20:43
#188 - If you have a free press, then you have to accept that the press will print opinions you do not like. You also have to accept that you are a perfect liberty to seek funding and start your own newspaper, one that will present the news and opinions in the way that you find acceptable. If enough people like what you do, then you will have a successful business.

177

Richardinho,

22/03/2008 11:23:27
'No, I have a very definite opinion on Britain's role in WW2, which I believe was almsot wholly positive.'

the main positive result of the second world war from Britain's point of view was that Britain was not conquered by Germany.
However it's well documented that Hitler did not want a war with Britain. It's also extremely doubtful to my mind that a successful invasion and occupation of Britain by Germany was ever even possible.

Looking on other consequences of WW2; the mass loss of life, and the taking over of half of Europe by Stalin- and the resulting problems that that caused, it's highly questionable to describe the results of the war as 'almost wholly positive'.
178

,

22/03/2008 11:24:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

GM,

22/03/2008 11:24:48
@198

same old 'miss the point' response.

Would you please comment and provide your view on whether your so-called 'free press' should be entitled to print 'freely' whatever they want - be it based in fact, fantasy or indeed purely politically motivated?

After all, in your world, it appears the press can do whatever they wish depending on who bankrolls them, or what the editor-in-chief persoanlly believes in.

I actually think your own view of what the press should and shouldn't do is the totalitarean one.
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 11:25:33
198. Indeed. Of course the press are free to take whatever editorial position they like, and I don't mind that the Scotsman is anti-SNP, that is their right. There are concerns about media ownership in general (Murdoch et al) and whether this can be lead to unhealthy influence of individuals in our system if massive ownership is concentrated in few hands and people like new Labour pander to them, but that doesn't really apply to the Scotsman. Howeverm with vitriolic and bizarre headlkines such at the Record/ SUn on polling day and no paper taking a pro SNP/ independence editorial line the Scottish press is rather one sided.
181

shivago8,

livingston 22/03/2008 11:26:39
This article was designed to invite controversy and it is certainly doing that.
I am proud that our Sottish prime minister,that is Salmond again is involved.
If it was McConnell he would have consulted westminster and came back with a "no comment" answer.
Alex is standing up for the country and wants to make it better,what is wrong with that.
Wendy and her cohorts still believe that they are in power and full of useless ideas just like when they were in power.
If they want to do this and that why did they not do it when they had a chance.
Instead we had 10 wasted years of stagnation with ministers interested in filling their own pockets.
Now that they are no longer in power they are acting like a kid who has had her lollipop taken away.
Wendy should be preparing to go in front of the magistrate and not contacting the media with a lot of hot air and garbage.
Mr Salmon the majority of the country are with you and we urge you to stay strong and fight off these idiots who are talking our proud country down.
The country is now moving forward,there is a buzz in the air and we are indeed over the moon that someone is trying to put our country in the limelight for all the good reasons.
Our wee bit hill and glen is now getting the attention that it warrants and the days of "no comment" McConnell
are thankfully over and hopefully for good.
NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT
182

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 11:27:46
198

We are not debating a free press we are debating a political party controlled press.
Funnily enough there is a difference more noticable it seems by those who dont support the union.
183

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 11:28:56
193

And the proof being what again???
184

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 11:40:54
198 Border Scot
There is no such thing as a free press. Do you doubt for one minute that, for instance, the Sun prints anything that would upset Murdoch. Do you remember the front page spread "It was the Sunday wot won it"? Do you remember the Scottish Edition of the Sun supporting independence to manipulate public opinion in Scotland whilst the English edition was printing the opposite?
Of course, the press will present opinions we do not like but all we ask is that a Scottish national (note the small n) paper gives us a fair and balanced view rather than articles with a clear unionist balance and misleading headlines.
185

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 11:41:45
#198 Border Scot

"If you have a free press, then you have to accept that the press will print opinions you do not like."

And you have to accept that we are also free to criticise the press whatever blatantly biased political position it may take.

Condemnation of the piece under discussion is not, as you seem to imagine, based solely on disagreement with the views expressed by the (anonymous) author, but on the fact that the piece is, in journalistic terms, fundamentally flawed.

To the very limited extent that it analyses anything, that which it analyses is not something which can be shown to actually exist. It mere examines its own internal assumptions and conclusions as if they were established facts.

It attacks a stance that it does not - cannot - show has any real connection with the subject of the attack. It does not critique anything that Alex Salmond actually said. Only what he "half implied". Or the evidently prejudiced author wholly inferred!

There is nothing of substance in the piece at all. And yet it is presented as informed commentary. It is propaganda puff. Nothing more. And it is a shame that a once excellent newspaper should publish such worthless twaddle.
186

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 22/03/2008 11:54:28
Whether the Iraq was was illegal, I believe, rested upon a resolution of the UN Security Council. If Saddam was in breach of certain conditions, serious consequences would follow.The USA deemed he had and considered it permitted them to commence a military attack. Others were of the view that it was only the Security Council which could determine whether a breach of the resolution had occurred.
Blair tried his best to secure such a resolution, but it became apparent that France would exercise its veto as a permanent member and thus thwart Bush's plans.
Blair had to choose, and decided to back Bush, who was keen to make use of the March 2003 weather window to start the war.
The UK parliament still had to back the plans, and Blair, using a series of lies and threats and his acting skills, managed to secure parliamentary approval. The Libdems, the Nationalist parties, some Labour (such as Robin Cook) and Conservatives (such as Kenneth Clarke) opposed the war, as did the mass of public opinion.
Whether it was legal or not, it was plain that the war would create more problems than it solved, but this was skirted around and denigrated.
Saddam was a tyrant, but he was being well contained by the no-fly-zones. He did however manage to keep Iraq provided with electricity, water, hospitals, schools, security and employment, it was not a hotbed of terrorism, and was a bulwark to the ambitions of Iran.
What we have given the Iraqis is none of the above and have made it the training ground of Al qaida, a stronghold of pro-Iranian Shia fundamentalism, and the battle ground of sectarian civil war, 100,000s have been killed, 1000s of our and America's brave soldiers have been killed, and $trillions & £billions wasted.
Eventually every conflict will burn itself out, and every dictator mellow (look at Gadaffi).
Five years down the line has it been worth it? I think not. If we had known 5 years back what we know now, no right thinking person would have thought it worth it. We
187

whitegold,

Shire 22/03/2008 11:56:20
AM2 quoted http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4482029.stm
to point out that the legality or otherwise of the Iraqi war is a matter of debate.

This link assumes that Blair told the truth. As the years have passed the evidence all points to the opposite.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/diplomats-suppressed-document-lays-bare-the-lies-behind-iraq-war-428545.html

>>A devastating attack on Mr Blair's justification for military action by Carne Ross, Britain's key negotiator at the UN, has been kept under wraps until now because he was threatened with being charged with breaching the Official Secrets Act.

In the testimony revealed today Mr Ross, 40, who helped negotiate several UN security resolutions on Iraq, makes it clear that Mr Blair must have known Saddam Hussein possessed no weapons of mass destruction. He said that during his posting to the UN, "at no time did HMG [Her Majesty's Government] assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."<<

This is consistent with other remarks from Robin Cook and Claire Short. The whole article is worth a read.

Robin Cook revealed that Blair knew before combat began that Iraq had no usable WMD. Blair’s contention that Iraq posed “a real and present danger” was a lie.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1166479.ece

Here is a video clip of Blair in the house of Commons telling deliberate lies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSieUhqIR6k

Another link worth looking at is:
http://iraqdossier.com/blairslies




188

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 22/03/2008 11:57:08
We are currently paying for this war and will continue to pay for it for many years. That is why we currently have a financial crisis, why Alistair Darling had no reserves to save us from tax rises.
Alex Salmond has been right in his assessment, and his judgement more sound than Blair, Brown, Browne, Cairns and Alexander. And well they know it.
189

beech hedge,

blairgowrie 22/03/2008 12:13:18
On the subject of Wendy is it true that she can swallow a mars bar sideways on in one gulp
190

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 12:14:30
#193

A well considered and thoughtful post, well up to the usual standard of all the rest of the anti-Scottish brigade posts on here.

However even you have got some way to match the Unionist from Ulster who denies that being a Unionist from Ulster means he has an Ulster Unionist background.

Or how about the same guy who thinks that Trident is somehow cuddly and attractive and not at all designed to create mass destruction, whereas those weapons possessed by those we are told to regard as being this week’s baddies are obviously designed to harm only good, innocent, clean living Christians.

If there is a robust, coherent intellectual case for the retention of the Union, why is it that no-one is capable of coming on here and expressing it?

191

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 22/03/2008 12:18:33
What a load of bunk this article is!

Is the writer seriously proposing that we join the next neoCon Crusade in the Middle East?

Before the Iraq war started the Irish Government stated that Irish troops would take no part as the invasion was ILLEGAL.

I hope that any future Scottish Government can at least match the honesty of the Irish one.

Salmond though is a REAL problem for Westminster and Brown's flunkies in Scotland.....simply because Salmond is in tune with Scottish opinion and this has helped the SNP to consistently produce Policies that Scotland wants.

Oh,and I voted for Labour in 97 and 2001 but after Iraq NEVER again.
192

karinxx,

22/03/2008 12:23:43
But, for most Scottish people, the relationship with Britishness is far more complex than that. During good times, as in the proud aftermath of the Second World War, it flourishes, and the cultural ties that bind grow stronger; in times like these, they tend to weaken


what the writer apparently misses is that people in scotland were against the war from the very beginning this war was not about freedom or democracy it was about removing a dictator in order to access OIL.

That was it. The second world war was about removing hitler to ensure democracy.
The scottish people agreed with that on the whole at the time of the second world war.

War does not decide who was right only who is left.

War is about killing, war is about destroying something or someone.

war is failure.

Failure of dialogue and failure of people to listen on both sides. Lines of refugees fleeing and thousands injured children killed people starving.People dying from disease and deprivation.

its not glorious or wonderful or liberating.

Why the heck does the writer think people celebrated the end of war.

War is wrong. War is always wrong and yet since the second world war there has only been one day when the whole world was at peace and there wasnt fighting or war or conflict in some part of the world.

War is always going on ISNT IT TIME IT WASNT...........
193

Richard,

west lothian 22/03/2008 12:23:55

bully wee alba,
Edinburgh

"If there is a robust, coherent intellectual case for the retention of the Union, why is it that no-one is capable of coming on here and expressing it"?

Perhaps because one doesn't exist?

And I contest one hasn't existed since the end of W.W.2. as Britain declined as a World power and had to concentrate on re-building Britain's post war economy.
194

Border Scot,

22/03/2008 12:26:37
#207 - In other words, you do not agree with what the article is saying.
195

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 12:39:15
Brilliant thoughtful and well written piece. You can gauge it's accuracy in proportion to the snp brigade usual attacks.

One only hopes the defense of this nation both at home and abroad never falls into the hands of the snp.

#213 bullyboy

There has been many a "robust, coherent intellectual case for the retention of the Union" it is you that don't wish to see it or acknowledge the paucity of your vision.

your like the person who goes to the same restaurant to eat every day and then complains. Why do you bother coming hear you dont like the articles you dont like the individuals who post comments. In fact there isn't any part of this site you do appreciate..so why do you 'Bother.?

The 'Union' Flag has been planted here and you can't tear it down you just show how ineffectual you are towards the Scotsman's support of Scotland within the United Kingdom...............
196

nolimits,

Kamloops 22/03/2008 12:39:44
I always thought that good journalism was always prefaced with the authors name. This article is an opinion, perhaps the author is ashamed of it, enough to not let his/her name to stand beside it.
197

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 12:41:09
218
The Union is like a failing marriage, says Paxman
Jeremy Paxman has claimed that the English would not care if Scotland were to quit the 301-year-old Union.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/index.jhtml

Poor Niko, he is clearly the wife the husband has lost interest in.

198

Anne, Glasgow,

22/03/2008 12:42:31
It is well known among journalists who write on war that Scottish soldiers have, throughout history, been the first sent to the frontline. A very experienced war journalist told me that it was happening in Iraq and also in the Gulf war.
199

brownlie,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 12:44:45
Nikostratos at 218
From my memory of Greek your names stands for Victory in War perhaps you could change it to Dismal Failure in War.
I'm off to Ibrox - perhaps I'll see you and Border Scot there waving your Union Jacks.
200

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 12:44:57
"Why do you bother coming hear you dont like the articles you dont like the individuals who post comments."

What and leave you here making life size effigies of the WENDY from your own poopoo?

No Niko, we care too much about you, slowly but surely we will set YOU on the path to righteousness!
201

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 12:47:57
215

So the entire argument for Scotland remaining within the UK rests with the warm fuzzy feeling Scots felt at the end of WW2???? and those of us who didnt experiance this warm fuzzy feeling what do we have to encourage us to remain within the UK???
202

Argyll on line,

Argyll 22/03/2008 12:48:11
Castaway (3) askes; 'And the author of the above article is ?'219 above asks similar.

It's another Unionista Joycie special. Why cannot she see that war is of the very essence of the Anglo- British state,its raison d'etre indeed, and will be till it dies--which will be quite soon now.

203

Janis *,

london 22/03/2008 12:49:09

Poster 193...brave guy for remarks like that on this forum! I have just been reading an article by Jeremy Paxman in today's Telegraph (can't find the link) he is apparently hosting a BBC Scotland programme on Tuesday evening, along the lines of what do we English feel about Scottish Independence. We're not very worried apparently...what a surprise.
Then he quotes a Government poll taken this week which gives only 23% of Scots asked as being pro- independence....oh dear!
204

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 12:51:32
218

"You can gauge it's accuracy in proportion to the snp brigade usual attacks."

No you can gauge its anti SNP rhetoric or pro unionist rhetoric by the proportion of attacks on it by both SNP supporters and objective readers alike certainly NOT its accuracy.
You gauge a news stories ACCURACY by the level of evidence presented along with it.
Is that too complex for somebody like you to understand???
205

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 12:55:51
227

Aye and no doubt if Jeremy Paxton offered to sell you a bottle of fat free shampoo you'd buy it.
206

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 12:57:23
#218

I come on here to broaden my education into the inventive use of spelling and grammar so ably demonstrated by yourself in particular.

For someone so quick to defend Scotland’s subservient role in the current Union, you do yourself a disservice by being unable to express yourself in terms which would at least warrant a Standard Grade pass in the language of your chosen masters.
207

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 12:58:28
218

"There has been many a "robust, coherent intellectual case for the retention of the Union"

Not on any of these threads nor in the news media on the web or anywhere else care to cut and paste one??
208

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 12:59:38
231. Apparently his pants offer insufficient support for his sadly loose and fallen scrotum.
209

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 13:00:01
218

"The 'Union' Flag has been planted here"

You never said a truer word.
210

Queen D,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 13:02:27
BBC " have your say" on the Iraq war is more interesting .
Looks like anti war wins by thousands from all over the world! And from an Iraqi youngster the words of warning about removing Sadaam and how the country would disintegrate ,made BEFORE the war are most apposite!
211

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 13:07:16
236 Who is my nemesis? Will go look
212

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 13:07:43
#217 Border Scot

Not in "other" words. In your words. Why you imagine that anyone might consider you qualified to speak for me remains a mystery.

As I tried to explain, but was defeated by your reading difficulty, there is nothing in the piece to agree with. Unless you share the author's blind prejudice, of course. It is baseless and without substance or merit.

Other than the empty anti-Salmond rhetoric that you find so appealing, the piece offers nothing. Distil it and what are you left with? Informed only by all-too-evident prejudice the writer chooses to make certain unexplained inferences from some unspecified utterances then present these inferences as validation of their unexamined assumptions and unsupported conclusions.

As an example of self-affirming circularity, it is something of a gem.

As a piece of propaganda designed to appeal to the unthinking, it is evidently sufficient.

As an exercise in journalism, it doesn't even come close to warranting the name.
213

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 13:10:34
238

That sums it up better than I ever could have.
214

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 13:11:52
236 Oh aye, had forgotten about him
215

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 13:13:18
Nasty lot.............Attack me through me Gramma Bah! who cares

#233 ayrshire

Loose pants have been found the most suitable for preserving ones parts...

216

Transparent?,

22/03/2008 13:13:41
#181.
We were told the Iraq war was necessary because Saddam was a dictator and he had weapons of mass destruction.

The first reason in that statement, I believe, was true but the second was not proven. Most people now know that it had nothing to do with WMD but more to do with oil.

I believe it was Michael Howard who reminded Tony Blair that when you take the nation to war, you are supposed to take the people with you. Tony Blair failed in that respect and that is what makes this war stupid. He did not have the backing of the British people.

Try to read between the lines of my postings and you may escape being accused of blind stupidity.
217

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

22/03/2008 13:19:36
'During good times, as in the proud aftermath of the Second World War'

Who is the author of this complete and utter drivel!!

The 'goods times' after WWII, were in fact the Americans attacking the first post war socialist government in the UK, to the extent, that the inequitous 'lease lend' was stopped at cessation of hostilities and the payments were demanded immediately.
On the setting up of the NHS and a proper old age pension system, plus the taking into public ownership of the 'basics' of human life, caused such a panic in America, that the UK was left 'out of the Marshall Aid' plan, only to see that money go to rebuild the occupied enemy states.

Such was life in, in the 'Good Times' after WWII that because of US intransigence and downright hostility to the elected government of the UK, that 'rationing of basic commodities, such as FOOD, CLOTHING and ENERGY products continued right up to the mid fifties.

Eventually the 'Yanks' gave us a 'loan' but with incredible 'strings attached', like the provision of 'air and sea bases' in the UK along with allowing certain overseas properties to become US Naval and Air Bases such as 'Diego Garcia'.

The 'bomb sites' in our major towns and cities did not disappear until the mid to late 60's, over 20 years after the end of WWII, and it was only in 2007 that the UK government paid the last installment on our 'War Loans' to the USA, a debt that was going to be written off By President John F Kennedy, however his murder by elements close to various criminal and political organisations in the US ,put paid to that, as the incoming President, conveniently 'forgot' JFK's pledge to the UK people.

So perhaps the 'author' of this scurrilous piece of fantasy, solely aimed at 'debunking' the laudable sentiments of the majority of 'Scots', our armed forces and our elected Scottish government, would care to stand up and be counted, or is it just another case of another mindless Unionist attack on democracy and freedom.
218

Hamish Scott,

22/03/2008 13:20:08
#218
"There has been many a "robust, coherent intellectual case for the retention of the Union" it is you that don't wish to see it or acknowledge the paucity of your vision."

Could you give us an example?

#220
It's interesting that Paxman is allowed his Engnat views and remains a news journalist (as with Britnat Kirsty Wark) yet when Liz Quigley married Scotnat John Swinney she got shunted out of the news/current affairs area of BBC Scotland.
219

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

22/03/2008 13:20:33
cont, from post #245

So I say stand up and identify yourself!
Or are you so ashamed of the lies that you perpetuate that you do not want to be associated with your own work!!!
220

ratzo,

22/03/2008 13:20:56
more ghastly british nationalism from Joyce Macmillan. What an ugly and shallow piece of writing this is.
221

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 13:36:33
I realise that we are supposed to be discussing the "article" and not the Iraq debacle, but I feel compelled to make a point.

Many people, here and elsewhere, have begun to portray the Iraq war a mistake. It is important to acknowledge that it was much more than this. The assault on Iraq was a wilfully contrived act of needless, unprovoked aggression, contrary to all international laws and conventions, in pursuit of a declared policy of global domination and the base urges of avarice.

Let us not mince words. It was, and remains, a war-crime as heinous as any in history. That it was done in our name and in the name of democracy only makes the crime more despicable.

It was a crime whose ultimate intent was to undermine the very foundation on which democracy stands and substitute a new world order which would sweep away the freedoms we cherish. The freedoms we ALL have an obligation to safeguards as our children's inheritance.

For their sakes, we have no right either to forgive or forget.
222

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 13:37:24
Here is a wee question for the diminishing band of cringers determinably trying to justify the anti Scottish Government agenda being so actively pursued by the current management at the Hootsmon.

Who will last the longer, the (increasingly popular in the polls) Alex Salmond led Scottish Government, or the (ever diminishing circulation figures) editor of the Hootsmon?

Perhaps a cringer would care for a wager?
223

subrosa,

22/03/2008 13:39:13
#42 Those Scottish soldier, I love it when I see that.
The truth is they are Scots who are soldiers They serve in the British army and are British soldiers.

That's because they have no choice. If there was a choice around 75% of Scots presently serving in HM Forces would join a Scottish army. Mr Salmond keeps well in touch with the military and their opinions believe me.
224

subrosa,

22/03/2008 13:40:39
# 249 Excellent post. I do wish we had a journalist somewhere on this island who would write the truth as you have done.
225

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 13:42:49
#244 Metahlions

The Old banger is running like a dream so far.........

Just off on the easter egg delivery round here's one for yourself mind you don't make yourself sick

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/holidays/easter/jeanegg/jeaneggimg/egg25.jpg

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/holidays/easter/jeanegg/jeaneggimg/bunny.jpg
226

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 13:53:50
#253

Labourtory policies on hospital closures and prescription charges make people sick, Easter eggs are relatively benign.
227

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 13:59:43
#244 Metahlions

The Old banger is running like a dream so far.........

Just off on the easter egg delivery round here's one for yourself mind you don't make yourself sick

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/holidays/easter/jeanegg/jeaneggimg/egg25.jpg

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/holidays/easter/jeanegg/jeaneggimg/bunny.jpg
228

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 14:04:35
#255

Labourtory policies on hospital closures and prescription charges make people sick, Easter eggs are relatively benign.
229

peter e,

usa 22/03/2008 14:13:06
I think Thou protesteth too much. All the article said was that "If" Salmond had power, the choices are not so simple.

He didn't so he is free to be critical, as are most of the people in Europe and much of the USA.

I suspect however that in 50 to 100 years GW will be considered a great leader.

Abraham Lincoln was similarly reviled during his presidency, and if the UN had had a say so, the US would be two countries, and maybe slavery would be now being abolished in the Confederancy.

Grow up.
230

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 14:23:13
#257 peter e

"All the article said was that "If" Salmond had power, the choices are not so simple."

Ultimately, the choices are simple. Either you go to war, or you don't. What is necessary is that such decisions be informed by facts and rational analysis. Not by the lies and puerile propaganda put about by the Bush regime and its accomplices.#

Some saw through these lies. Salmond was one of those. And he has a far greater chance of being honoured by history than your Beloved Leader. He is reviled now. And he can only be further reviled as the consequences of his disastrous presidency continue to bite.

My only regret is that it is likely to be the American people who bear the brunt of this. Who can doubt that they deserve better.
231

peter e,

usa 22/03/2008 14:26:24
Most of us have NO imagination.

What if Saddam had WMD"s as was thought by British, Frenc and USA intelligence?

What if we had NOT invaded.

What if an atomic bomb had gone off in Edinburgh?

Who would we blame then?

232

sweet76,

22/03/2008 14:29:49
I'm not too sure about the simplicity of the article but there are some very simplistic comments being made.
I consider myself a Unionist and was dead against the war in Iraq for the following reasons:
- Looking at past experience (WWII an exception) any military venture with the US was doomed to failure.
- Tony Blair was looking to have his 'Mrs T's Falklands moment'.
- Pre-emptive is another word for aggressive.
- It would have damaged the reputation of the UK.
- If Sadaam had been a long term problem that needed to be dealt with, why did we have such a crap plan for invasion?
- The human rights violations the Sadamm was commiting against the Arabs didn't bother the neighbouring Arab nations. So if it wasn't bothering them, it wasn't bothering me.
- It was blatantly obvious it was only about oil.
- No time had been allowed to let UN sanctions work.

So would the Nats stop making comments that all Unionists are pro war. You do know me, so do not think that you can speak on my behalf.

Thanks You
233

sweet76,

22/03/2008 14:34:40
#259 'Some saw through these lies. Salmond was one of those.'

So either he has super human powers, a vast and well informed intelligence unit, he was in on Sadaam's weapon's programme or......he was just objecting to first thing that came out of the government's mouth.

Personally, I think he was just lucky.
234

Katty,

Bannockburn 22/03/2008 14:34:51
#1

AND SO SAY ALL OF US BLATANT
235

HEN BROON 5,

22/03/2008 14:35:50
#42 walter,22/03/2008 07:18:22 Your pathetic cringing is embarrassing. I can assure you as a Scot with 10 years service in the Army under my belt that the Scottish identity within the British Army is alive and well. News footage from these colonial wars quite often has in the background the St. Andrews cross in badge or flag form. Scottish regiments carry with them a fierce pride and national identity and no one dare tell them any other. Just as the Gurkha's do with their Nepalese identity, who are disgustingly treated, by this great benevolent British state.
Like many Scots before me and since, I joined as a sprog at 16 to escape economic drudgery and seek adventure. However the treacherous policies of Billy Boy Ingram and Hoon the Goon in wiping out centuries of Scottish tradition in an attempt to assimilate Scots more completely to their fascist vision of British in the Army has blown right back in their lying corrupt unionist faces and potential Scottish recruits are voting with their boots and not signing on and leaving faster than they can recruit them. Salmond is correct, as was Robin Cook.
236

kimba,

22/03/2008 14:35:52
Thank God that will never happen,not for the forseeable future!
237

kimba,

22/03/2008 14:39:20
15.NO, you are proud of the snp,a lot of scots think they are vile,billious cr-p.
238

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 14:39:49
260. What if? A comepelling argument. What if Australia is secretly developing a plague virus to unleash against the world. If we don't invade them, who will you blame.
Grow up
239

Katty,

Bannockburn 22/03/2008 14:41:59
260#

And what if your head fell off when you were out handing out your washing.This what if rubbish.

Then again we could blamb you 260#

Most people do blamb the USA Look at the Pastor DVDs
240

kimba,

22/03/2008 14:49:43
269,meths. It's not me who needs to "Grow up",I suggest you and your snp cohorts realise two thirds of the people of scotland SUPPORT the UNION!
241

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 14:50:26
#260 peter e

And what if you talked a little bit of sense. Are we supposed to fight wars on the basis of what some paranoiac can conjure from his imagination?

Iraq was the most surveilled chunk of real estate on the planet. The US military and intelligence services boasted of their ability to identify target installations for the purposes of mythically surgical strikes. So how did they miss all these WMDs? Such things don't exist in isolation. They require a vast infrastructure for development manufacture, maintenance and deployment. Did your erstwhile ally, Saddam, have the magical power to make all this invisible?

Another claim was that he had whisked these WMDs across the border to Syria. Crap! In the first place, the Syrians would have none of it. And, again, how might this have been managed without being detected and without leaving a single trace?

What if "we" had not invaded? Saddam would have fallen. He was barely clinging to power as it was. The only thing propping him up was the US talking-up his military capacity and the effects of US-administered sanctions. That is why your Beloved Leader and his gang of thugs were so anxious to launch their vicious assault against the people of Iraq. They were terrified that Saddam would be ousted before they could progress their plans.

What is an atomic bomb had gone off in Edinburgh? Statistically, it would be more likely to be an American bomb than an Iraqi one. Simple arithmetic! The us has thousands. The Iraqis have none.

And is some kind of terrorist attack against Edinburgh and less likely thanks to the criminal activities of the Bush regime and its accomplices? Not in the real world!

Who to blame? Well, let's see! Why don't we start with those who are actually doing stuff. The US is pleased to strut about the world stage flaunting itself as the only superpower. It claims the be the biggest actor on that stage. But wants to deny any responsibility for the nature and quality of the performance
242

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 14:52:41
275

Grow up
243

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 14:57:03
#262 sweet76

"So either he has super human powers, a vast and well informed intelligence unit, he was in on Sadaam's weapon's programme or......he was just objecting to first thing that came out of the government's mouth.

Personally, I think he was just lucky."

You foolishly imagine that Salmond was the only one to take the position that he did. The reality (visit us sometime!) is that many people did. Were they all either "just lucky" or in cahoots with Saddam? To the rational mind, this seems unlikely.

The objections to the Bush regime's belligerence against Iraq were many. All were very thoroughly aired in the weeks and months before the invasion. If you did not hear them, it was by choice.
244

,

22/03/2008 14:58:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
245

kimba,

22/03/2008 14:58:43
277,are you in denial! think you are,TW-T!
246

'Smee',

Canada 22/03/2008 15:03:52
For Scotland to go Independent wold be like a nasty divorce. There are too many threads that need to be broken to make it a viable project. The consequence to the man in the street traveling - passports to cross the Border!! Separating the Military, defending the Country against whomsoever - trade, tourism, electricity grid. It would open Britain to untold infiltration of unwanted/illegal people for a long time - lets face it there are more people entering Britain now who shouldn't be allowed in!! Divide and Conquer!! go for it. - I don't think.
247

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 15:04:40
281. grow up
248

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:09:13
When will the snp and it's supporters realise they are in the minority,they strut about with their "holier than thou" attitude and expect the rest of us to kowtow to their stupid and billious retoric,sorry guys,it's you who needs to "GROW UP" and understand you will never gain independence not in a hundred years!
249

subrosa,

22/03/2008 15:09:53
# 275

I do wish you'd be more accurate. Two thirds do not support the Union as the status quo.
250

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 15:11:16
#285 kimba

"...you will never gain independence not in a hundred years!"

That would be for the people of Scotland to decide. Not you.
251

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 15:11:21
285. Grow up
252

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 15:16:10
#283

And yes, you support the integration of Canada into the USA?
253

,

22/03/2008 15:17:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
254

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 15:17:25
#283 'Smee'

"...- I don't think."

Evidently!

You equally evidently know nothing of the well-formulated constitutional and practical processes developed for nations regaining independence. It has been done countless times. Being so ignorant, all sorts of weird ideas rush in to fill the void. Try not to confuse these superstitious imaginings with goings-on in the real world.
255

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:18:43
286. sorry, think you'll find they do!
256

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 15:19:46
283. And yet 100 countries became independent last century - you wonder how on earth they managed?
257

sweet76,

22/03/2008 15:21:07
Electric Hermit, read my comment #261. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to get accross.I also opposed the war in Iraq but I don't attribute it to being a human lie detector. The comment was trying to make out that only Salmond could see the truth, which is complete rubbish.
The spin that this government has produced since the day it came to power has meant it is very difficult to obtain the truth.
My line on the subject comes from the fact that, in general, wars are not good and should be avoided. (I asume that some Nat will now accuse me of being a liar and that I think all wars are good).
258

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 15:22:24
293. Grow up
259

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:25:15
SNP34%
LAB32%. Not a lot in it,to listen to the snp you would think they were worlds apart!
260

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:27:45
297.IT'S not me who needs to "clean up my act" seems you and your cohorts are grasping at straws.
261

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 15:30:07
#295 sweet76

"The comment was trying to make out that only Salmond could see the truth..."

The comment did no such thing. As is clear from reading the words. This being crucial to a correct understanding of the comment. Pay particular attention to the words in capitals.

"Some saw through these lies. Salmond was ONE OF THOSE."
262

sweet76,

22/03/2008 15:35:41
Electric Hermit. Your still missing my point. No one could tell if the dossiers being produced at the time were truth or not, unless they had full knowledge of Sadaam's weapon's programme. The only choice that could be made at the time was whether it was right to start a violent act or not.
263

Davie08,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 15:37:41
297
Grow up and go away. You have exhausted you're very limited entertainment value.
264

Davie08,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 15:39:10
Oops meant 298 sorry Meth
265

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 15:39:52
#298 kimba

And if the figures were reversed? Would you be putting as much desperate effort into pretending that Labour were not actually ahead?

And it looks to me like you are making the all too common mistake of confusing party allegiance with views on independence. More astute commentators are aware that, while it is true that SNP voters may reasonably assumed to be in favour of independence, it is by no means correct to assume that Labour voters are against independence.

People are complex. They support and vote for political parties for a variety of reasons. And the change allegiance too. Also for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons pro-independence Labour voters are switching to the SNP is that they can now see independence as a real possibility. previously, a common argument for not voting SNP was that independence was too far out of reach. Now that it is within our grasp, expect a massive swing.
266

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 15:43:59
#304 sweet76

At no time did I state or suggest that Salmond was the ONLY one to see the truth. Why you claimed that I did is for you to explain. As is your continuing refusal to acknowledge that the claim was false.
267

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:45:14
305,WHAT YOU MEAN IS " GO AWAY,YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR POINT ACROSS TO WELL!" Oh dear,have I fcuked up your precious snp case!
268

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 22/03/2008 15:45:37
308
I did apologise see above, I was referring to kimba. Actually I'm not a new poster I have just bu**ered off to the Herald thaese days as I can't be bothered reading the hootsman even on line.
269

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:48:02
307. Not at all,I don't even support Labour,but if it takes my support of Labour to defeat the billious snp so be it.
270

Davie08,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 15:50:39
Nae bother Meth my fault. Bothering with kimba'doth make fools of us all'
271

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 15:52:04
#304 sweet76

"No one could tell if the dossiers being produced at the time were truth or not..."

I have already explained the sound, rational reasons for doubting the claims about WMDs. Whether these formed part of Salmond's reasoning, I do not know. What I do know is that it did not take a seer to realise that the claims about WMDs were, at best, massively exaggerated.

Incidentally, I was one of those partially taken-in by all this. While I never believed the more ludicrous claims, i.e. the 45-minute crap, I did expect that some evidence of attempts to produce chemical weapons would be uncovered.

It simply didn't occur to me that Saddam and his people were telling the complete truth about these weapons programs. But they were.
272

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:52:10
315. Think you'll find I know more about "politics" than you or your precious snp will ever know,by the way did you know the scottish raj are about to dissolve the Barnett formula.
273

sweet76,

22/03/2008 15:54:43
Electric Hermit. Ok. Salmond was part of a group that knew the truth. But how? We only knew the truth after the event, not before.

I took the line that the invasion was wrong but I didn't have any sort of insight or was on some sort of higher plain.
274

kimba,

22/03/2008 15:55:17
319.Think you will have to "bother" with me,you see your dribble is next to cr-p!
275

Davie08,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 15:59:14
Kimba I think you will find that what you don't know about politics would fill several large volumes. Indeed the only function you have on these threads is to display your positively astounding ignorance.
320
Dear me no. You have raised a disturbing vision that I fear will take years of expensive therapy to lose. BTW yes I'm Davie08 on the Herald
276

kimba,

22/03/2008 16:04:47
326.LOL,TROLL.
277

kimba,

22/03/2008 16:07:56
326.Gordon Brown has instructed alistair darling to "review" the barnett formula,as he thinks it is "unfair";guess what IT IS!
278

Davie08,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 16:12:10
327 Not me I didn't post anything about Tony Benn. Mind you making enemies is half the fun. Hi Kimba
279

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 16:15:15
#323 sweet76

I didn't say he "saw the truth". I said he saw through the lies. This does not mean he must have had full knowledge of every detail. Only that he took more factors into account and weighted them differently. Which is no more than all opponents of the invasion did.

He has claimed no special insight. And I have made no such claim on his behalf.
280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:23:35
331. Enemies only count if they have an IQ above that of a sea slug. Bye Kimba
281

kimba,

22/03/2008 16:24:32
332.Oh indeed I do,no matter what is said the "Barnett Formula" was introduced to pacify scotland, seems it was a waste of time.
282

kimba,

22/03/2008 16:26:08
335,would you and your vile cohorts like to "test me" fcuk brain!
283

,

22/03/2008 16:27:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
284

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:28:24
323 Sweet 76

if the purpose of the invasion was to disarm Iraq of WMD (which it didn't have) - and this was the stated aim of the invasion - that could have been achieved by other means. Hans Blix and the UN inspectors said they could have finished their inspection in a few more months. Why, if the aim was to "disarm" Iraq of WMD was an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands, better than inspections? Also, it didn't take a genius to figure that on top of a horrific death toll, an invasion would destabilise the region and promote terrorism.

285

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:30:21
338. I count 18 exclamation mark menatlism there, Kimba. Matches your IQ you manky, herring-drawered, fat, rotund, lardy, rolly-polly, morbidly obese, round, wobbly circle.
286

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:33:14
337. "test you" Kimba? Is that a sexual proposition? Good grief, you would need to install landing lights on your massive, oleaginous, wobbling, bloated, many rolled stomach just to give anyone a chance of knowing where to poke, and they would need to be highly trained surfers to ride the waves of fat of your stomach without falling off as you thrashed about like a beached minke whale.
287

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 16:36:54
#339 Ayrshire Scot™

All perfectly rational. And, of course, only a small part of the reasoned case against the invasion. By contrast, there was no reasoned case FOR invasion.

And many, many people from all walks of life and every part of the world came forward to put the rational case against war. Why then does the piece above single out Salmond's opposition as uniquely worthy of condemnation?
288

langtonian,

scotus 22/03/2008 16:40:18
#303 Methalions.


Surprised to see such an old stager as yourself getting all worked up about such a miniscule poll.

Straw clutching has always been an SNP strong point.

Trust you will be forking out some £.S.D.for your favoured SNP,having been he biggest spender at the last election,to obtain a one seat majority, how deep will John Swinney have to delve into party funds to achieve the improvement you indicate.instead of quoting %figures how about revealing the total no. of votes cast,always a valuable excercise when getting down to the nitty gritty when evaluating a result.
Were there 1,000,1,280, 5,000,10,000 people questioned, and in which areas?

Question's it all really!











miniscule


289

,

22/03/2008 16:41:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
290

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:45:21
345. Kimba, you yourself posted your heigh and weight details on here (5 6" and 14 stone). Your BMI is morbidly obese. You are fat minger. Its called your thighs rubbing together as you waddle to the chip shop. Eat less. Alot less. ANd you might wobble a bit less and be less scarey.

291

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:46:50
343. A good question, And why does the piece single out Slamdon's Scottishness and being supsect in relation to being against the war? We can assume that the non-Scottish opponents of the war the world over are not suspect, just Salmond? As that is what the article seems to say?
292

Resolutions,

22/03/2008 16:48:21
What does Kimba understand? From the look of the posts on here, NOTHING.

Bush /Blair invasion of Iraq was illegal.

End of story. No debate.

(And for that matter ditto to Nazi Germany invading Czeckoslovakia, Poland, Belgium etc! Also end of story)
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 16:48:47
342. Meths, Kimba deals only in punds (dripping) and pounds (lard) not pounds (sterling)

294

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 17:01:02
#336 kimba

"...the "Barnett Formula" was introduced to pacify scotland..."

You were invited to reveal your ignorance of the Barnett formula, and you immediately obliged. Introduction of the formula actually meant a reduction in identifiable public expenditure in Scotland.

And, as you would be aware if you had a clue what you were talking about, the key phrase here is "identifiable public expenditure". The things that are left out of the calculation are at least as meaningful as the things that are included.

But, sticking with the figures used by the Treasury, London receives a relative advantage in terms of identifiable public expenditure broadly similar to that which accrues to Scotland. Can we take it that you are also campaigning to have London's "share" of public money reduced?

If not, can you explain why Scotland is uniquely favoured with your ill-informed attentions and not the other areas to which Barnett consequentials apply?
295

zigzag,

Canada 22/03/2008 17:02:50
Do you think that if THE SCOTSMAN changed it's name to THE SASSENACH it would sell more copy?
Worth a ponder eh!!!
296

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 17:14:21
#353 I think if they used more bleach to soften the actual paper they could quite easily compete with Andrex in the lucrative arsewiping market.
297

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 22/03/2008 17:24:09
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Barnett formula, but put simply all it does is allocate treasury funds to Scotland & Wales, in proportion to population, of funds spent in England on the certain identifiable expenditures, that is, in those government responsibilities which have separate departments in England and Scotland under devolution, and which prior to devolution were administered by the Scottish Office. Being based on population it is relatively easy to calculate. Whatever is spent in England, a percentage based on population is transferred in a block grant to Scotland to be divided up in whatever way Scotland wishes irrespective of how the equivalent has been spent in England.
Some contend it should be based on need, but how can that possibly be determined. Should the UK government arbitrate on 'need' in Scotland, it would create one unholy row with Edinburgh, and would lead to disputes and acrimony, unimaginable at present. Most politicians realise that would be the case. It may have its imperfections but the Barnett formula is more practical than the alternative of calculating 'need'.
298

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 17:25:53

STURGEON CONDEMNS ALEXANDER ON BIZARRE IRAQ WAR STANCE

LABOUR SHOULD APOLOGISE FOR ILLEGAL WAR

The SNP's Depute leader Ms Nicola Sturgeon MSP today condemned Labour's Wendy Alexander for her continued view that the Iraq War is not a "real issue" for the people of Scotland.

Ms Sturgeon said:

"It's outrageous that Wendy Alexander considers the Iraq War not to be a real issue. Labour continue to peddle this preposterous notion that the conflict isn't important to the people of Scotland.

"Many service personnel have died in this illegal and immoral war that has claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, and palpably made the world a more dangerous place.

"Wendy Alexander's insistence on not mentioning the war on its fifth anniversary is bizarre, and she should apologise for supporting the UK Government's decision to send in the troops on misleading information.

"She voted for the war in the Scottish Parliament and continues to support it, despite the overwhelming number of Scots opposing it – even the majority of Labour voters are opposed to the conflict.

"Ms Alexander is so out of touch with public opinion that it is no wonder her poll rating is at an all time low of minus 22.

"It's ludicrous to attack the Scottish Government on our record when we have done much more in ten months than Labour managed in eight years.

"The Scottish Government has abolished prescription charges, frozen the council tax, scrapped bridge tolls, massively reduced small business rates, saved accident and emergency hospital services, reintroduced free education and reached a historic agreement with local authorities to reduce class sizes.

"We are introducing legislation to improve the lives of Scots on a whole range of areas, while Labour continue with their negative carping on the sidelines.

"That's why the SNP are ten points clear of Labour in the polls."
299

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 17:30:51
#357 Methalions

I'm sure Mr Salmond would be proud to serve the people of Scotland in any capacity.
300

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 17:39:10
#359 Methalions

Are we talking career opportunities?
301

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 17:41:26
Watch it Hermit he's grooming you. Before you know it you'll be addicted Rioja and servicing Algerian sailors in Malaga.
302

kimba,

22/03/2008 17:43:20
352. you seem to forget, the barentt formula, was introduce to pacify the scots, i of such you are talking a load of c*ap
303

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 17:46:22
#362 G R O W U P.
304

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 17:48:40
#361 OscarMacApfel

Are we still talking career opportunities?
305

langtonian,

scotus 22/03/2008 17:50:09
#344Methalions,
Am interested to know how First Minister Alex Salmond will be received in the good old U.S ofA.

Can't imagine he can hope to be the flavour of the month in that neckof the woods.

Have the impression you have the advantage of me in that you'r perspective is from some unspecified country estate, in some foreign field.

Have to say, my own best guess is that it will not be a happy Easter for Scotland's Executive leader.

Have been absent from these posting of late,however I am very much looking forward to the SNP mk2 Manifesto,the current 10 month old MK1 version is pretty well shredded into oblivion,gives one some hope and expectation of examples of wooly,scotch mist type thinking,President Salmond is pretty much a one man band,nobody questions any of his internal party actions-he is the boss.

OOP's here comes my keepers ,.


306

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 17:53:35
362. Stop showing off.
307

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 17:55:20
#362 kimba

Is it a reading problem you have? Or is it a thinking problem? Both, perhaps?

Whatever, you seem incapable of absorbing and processing information. Maybe this kind of thing is not for you. Something involving large, brightly-coloured pieces of plastic with no sharp edges might be more suited to your "talents".

Or colouring-in? Would you like that? Of course you would! Just don't eat the crayons!
308

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 17:55:52
#364 Rough trade end of the market Hermit old boy.

#365 Poor old Fly Fifer.

"MK1 version is pretty well shredded into oblivion"

"The Scottish Government has abolished prescription charges, frozen the council tax, scrapped bridge tolls, massively reduced small business rates, saved accident and emergency hospital services, reintroduced free education and reached a historic agreement with local authorities to reduce class sizes."

All in ten months and they've done it DELIBERATELY!
309

kimba,

22/03/2008 17:56:53
363. I can't stand all these bleeding heart morons that go on all day about how the war in iraq was ilegal are you all idiots or just one brain cell short of a cabbage. If we had not gone into iraq and got rid of saddam and god knows who else, we were asking for trouble, i bet if if mr chamberlain had known what was going to happened with hitler he would have gone in and gotten rid of him and saved 6 million jewish lives never mind the millions of soldiers and other peoples lives.
310

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 17:57:47
369. GROW UP. And stop showing off.
311

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 18:00:27
#369 Try writing S N P on your forehead with crayon. Remember to use a mirror.
312

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 18:02:06
#365 langtonian

"Am interested to know how First Minister Alex Salmond will be received in the good old U.S ofA."

With all the courtesy due to a visiting head of government, I would expect. Why should it be otherwise?
313

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 18:05:48
#369 kimba

"If we had not gone into iraq and got rid of saddam and god knows who else, we were asking for trouble..."

Remove your head from you fundament for just a moment and you will discover that "trouble" is exactly what we've got.
314

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 18:08:44
#369 kimba

"are you all idiots or just one brain cell short of a cabbage"

I'm prepared to bow to your more intimate personal knowledge of such matters, but aren't these two things pretty much the same.
315

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 18:10:15
374. As a cabbage has no brain cells at all, one brain cell would be too many for a cabbage. Poor Kimba didn't even get the brain capacity of a cabbage correct.
316

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 18:16:53
What to do to kebab or Chinese.........Um i don't know.....
317

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 18:19:43
376. Do a Kimba - each both. And stick a sausage roll roll in your drink. Kimba didn't get so morbidly obese by drinking diet coke with no sausage rolls in it.
318

kimba,

22/03/2008 18:21:12
375, poor ayrshire scot does not understand irony, as you have just made my point for me.

I like the way you have all ignored my point of iraq and focused on my cabbage quip.

374, and you dont think we would had much more trouble had we not gone to war, in my opinion that is what we would of had a lot more trouble.
319

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 18:26:33
#378 kimba

"I like the way you have all ignored my point of iraq..."

It is polite to ignore someone when they are making a fool of themselves.

"...in my opinion that is what we would of had a lot more trouble."

You have given us no cause to place any value on your opinion. But I'm sure your detailed analysis of a putative scenario absent the invasion would make for very entertaining reading.
320

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/03/2008 18:27:40
# 378

Yeah Gods woman did you attend the Derek Zoolander Center For Children Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too?
321

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 18:37:01
#382 Methalions

Salmond's first visit to the US last October seemed to go well enough. I don't see why things should be significantly different now.
322

Electric Hermit,

22/03/2008 19:01:47
#386 Methalions

Salmond has been getting a good press everywhere but Scotland. Where we get the crap at the top of this page instead.
323

Caora Dubh,

Scotsman's war rhetoric misses picture altogether 22/03/2008 19:15:25
The most important decision a government can take is for what goals it is worth maiming and killing its young men and women. And make no mistake - these are our fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters. It is only the absolute duty of our government to risk these young lives to defend our own; all else is debatable. As an independent country it is difficult to imagine circumstances arising under which our government should commit our own people to fight alongside those of the USA; in England this is less clear, as the English have stronger economic reasons. There is now a political gulf between ourselves and England, and especially with the USA. The government and people of the USA have shown themselves to be extremely naive - pathetically so - when it comes to the Middle East, and of extraordinarily arbitrary morality. Is it right that the lives of our young people should be risked for purposes known only to the AmerUSAn government, in what appears to be an open-ended commitment that yields no conceivable benfit to our people, merely because our neighbouring state has an alliance with the USA? This is wrong. Our servicemen and women should only be committed to operations that we believe to be good and right. Historically AmerUSAn military adventures have been disastrous. Why should we maim and kill our own young people in such disasters?
324

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 22/03/2008 19:27:34
#385 Methalions: The more I have read about US military adventures around the globe, the more appalled I have become. AmerUSAn governments have participated directly and indirectly in the most horrific deeds, and appear to be incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong. AmerUSAn involvement in Iran, Iraq, Israel and Palestine, Nicaragua, Somalia, Cuba and a host of other countries beggars belief. There are many highly educated, cultured AmerUSAns, but the lowest common denominator is all that counts in the USA. The low intellectual centre of gravity of the USA is responsible for the abysmal leaders that the USA elects: people much better suited to the gun-toting Wild West of the post Civil War era, than today's complex world.
325

most things if in moderation,

22/03/2008 19:37:01
It's been well known that Scotland invented the modern game but what isn't so well known are the Scots who took the modern game of football to the World. I've come across many many articles on the spreading of the game. What I'd like to see is the story of the Scots who took football to the world.
326

Brian M,

EDINBURGH 22/03/2008 19:42:09
I fail to see that our forces are defending our country by being deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq
327

AnneJ,

OLDHAM 22/03/2008 19:45:53
On the article:- Rubbish! and I'm speaking as a woman with Scottish blood and living in England, I'm disgusted at the standard of facts (lack of)in this article, Salmond is well supported at home and admired for standing up and stating his views, when it mattered!

On war:- As one comment said Why hasn't the legalities of the war been taken up and enforced? I think that it what has weakened the UN. On the other hand, the people worldwide marched against the war - a significant event in the planet's history; the 1st time the people used their power to make their feelings known = exit Blair.
Yet, Tibet was over run and is now a 'genocide' issue; and no one does anything but take pictures of it! War IS not an easy issue and I have yet to see anyone suggest how Scottish waters will be protected, with miles of coastline let alone defense of the nation! Would we all not be better off to vote for Peace Councils/MPs worldwide before we let the politicians take us into total annihilation; with each country having a defense force that ONLY acts in cases of invasion! Not for water/oil/etc\?
328

Miss H,

22/03/2008 19:49:50
Everything that Alex Salmond said in the run up to the Iraq war turned out to be true whereas almost all of what Tony Blair said turned out to be false. Gordon Brown and the rest of the UK Cabinet backed Blair all the way so they share Blair's responsibility for getti it wrong.

You could argue why Salmond was right and Blair/Brown wrong. Perhaps Alex was right in a simplistic way and they were wrong in a sophisticated way. But that does not alter the facts does it?
329

Miss H,

22/03/2008 19:56:05
39 It would be more accurate to say that wars can be legal or illegal. How can anyone come up with a subjective definition of a moral war?

To answer your question - the SNP is not a pacifist party and suppoted the military action against Iraq in the first Gulf War for example. There was a clear cause there. Iraq had invaded another country. The action had a UN mandate.

There was no UN mandate for the invasion of Iraq in 2003 however and most of the international community considers it to be an illegal invasion.
330

Eve,

22/03/2008 19:56:23
#1 Traquir: Really, that's odd, Aye, right!!! It would apear that somethings never change!!!!

I was secretly hoping that the Scotsman would have improved and become less bias over my ~2 week long absence.
331

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 20:00:26

US Soldier throws puppy off cliff


http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=463231
332

Queen D,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 20:07:45
Date for the diary, Jeremy Paxman on divorce twixt Scotland and England.
Des Browne quoted as saying , Support for independence in Scotland is at its lowest ever ,and English want us to stay part of the UK.
So there!
Paxman says that the English are really not over excited by our wish to be independent and likens it to a marriage split!
333

Eve,

Scotland 22/03/2008 20:19:11
#397 Queen D: Eh!!!

Des Browne isn't in Scotland long enough to know Scots opinions never mind or wants and needs.
334

Fan Dango,

Pitlochry 22/03/2008 20:25:12
Re comment 20: I'm not really a supporter of Alex Salmond - he is after all a politician and therefore probably untrustworthy, he has said himself that by becoming a politician he had "fallen among thieves" - but he is consistent. I recall him speaking out against the bombing of Serbia - and that was being carried out by the U.S./British axis supposedly to "protect" Kosovar Albanian Muslims. So the accusation that he is anti-war simply because he allegedly has "Arab-Muslim friends" holds no water, but rather smacks of some kind of racist agenda by W.Smith. As usual this thread seems to produce a lot of ill-thought rhetoric whilst avoiding the real issues. But it WAS an awful article, badly written, poorly argued and evidencing that Ms McMillan is not a very good journalist - no surprise there then . . .
335

,

22/03/2008 20:25:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
336

Narcussus,

USA 22/03/2008 20:28:26
398
What does this actually mean? You sob in another forum asking why no one likes you. Here is an evidence for you.

I rebutted your stereotypes of me. You understand the word rebutt, right? I didnt enforce them.

So the next step for an adult in a debate is for you to tell me why you think my points are not valid.

Your post says nothing, except makes you look childish.

337

Eve,

Scotland 22/03/2008 20:29:07
#398 AM2,Glasgow, SCOTLAND,UK, Brittish Isles, EU, Europe,UN, World:

Brittian anti a nation it's a union. Scotlands a nation, Englands a nation, Walse is a nation, Northen Irealand can be what ever the people want it to be (cause I can't be bovvered arguing).
338

Queen D,

Glasgow 22/03/2008 20:30:13
Eve , I know that ,you know that and lets face it , he's FAR too scared to ask the Scottish people the relevant question.
But if he keeps saying the wee mantra " support for independence is at an all time low" it keeps him the cheery chap we know and love!
And if he keeps telling himself that everything in Iraq is a bed of roses and that our FM is just stirring up trouble, he'll sleep well in his wee bed at night.
If he actually had the courage to face facts , he might have a wee breakdown , and not be that cheery chap we all know and love!
All of you will find some interesting websites from various countries who deem the war an aggressive act and illegal.Even mentioning some possible trials!!
Hans Blix among them!
By the way, why is this article in the politics section ?
Should it not be in the opinion section by Anonymous?
Tell you what though, if I'd written it I'd want to remain anonymous too!
339

Narcussus,

USA 22/03/2008 20:31:45
404
he is the classic racist religious bigot. They shout the flithy inhuman slogans, but when challenged have got nothing to throw back and no decent arguments. Primarily because there are none!

340

Eve,

Scotland 22/03/2008 20:34:27
#402 Narcussus: Thats a wee bit to graphical for me. Think I'm gonae boak now!!!
341

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 20:42:01


Canadian Soldier Memories
ORIGINAL LINK HERE http://youtube.com/watch?v=8eXBvsosXvU This is a video showing all that these soldiers have done for us. Without Them we would not have the freedom that we have.

http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=445797
342

Narcussus,

USA 22/03/2008 20:43:56
408&409
Again spoken like a true little Brit full of self correcting importance but little more than a trashcan full of garbage
343

Narcussus,

USA 22/03/2008 20:48:47
407
looks to me that the brits queen pucked up the little self important britlander where do you guys come up with this sort of guy
344

Narcussus,

USA 22/03/2008 20:51:27
big deal brit i prefer the scots who do not wish to be little britlanders no more and remove themselves from the shackles of your queen (Republican always)
345

Brian M,

Edinburgh 22/03/2008 20:52:18
I believe that the Scottish Government and its Prime Minister ( let's ignore what London thinks about the job titles, etc) are setting the foundations for the greater benefit of Scotland and its people without recourse to permission from London
346

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 20:55:15


Canadian Soldier Memories
ORIGINAL LINK HERE http://youtube.com/watch?v=8eXBvsosXvU This is a video showing all that these soldiers have done for us. Without Them we would not have the freedom that we have.

http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=445797
347

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 21:09:43


Canadian Soldier Memories
ORIGINAL LINK HERE http://youtube.com/watch?v=8eXBvsosXvU This is a video showing all that these soldiers have done for us. Without Them we would not have the freedom that we have.

http://my.break.com/content/view.aspx?ContentID=445797
348

Brian M,

EDINBURGH 22/03/2008 21:10:18
Our military forces are there for USA political purposes ony, we should get out of it immediately
349

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/03/2008 21:12:25
417. Niko, why do you keep reposting that? You are becoming as repetitious as AM2, who now dedicates his lengthy posts to what people said to him last year ("you said I said but I never said")
350

,

22/03/2008 21:29:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
351

,

22/03/2008 21:33:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
352

Eve,

Scotland 22/03/2008 21:36:26
#316 kimba: Eh!!!!
You apear to have lost something!!!! A point/meaning!!!

Or is your key board broken!!!!
353

,

22/03/2008 21:38:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
354

Nikostratos,

22/03/2008 21:47:29
#419 Ayrshire Scot™
I only posted once having probs with me connection.must have hicccups.......Burp.hic..hic
355

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 22/03/2008 21:48:15
#413 Narcussus: What are you on? You apear to be labling me in a negative manner.

This birts keech talk was making me feel boakish. I dinnae understand why any one would lable them selfs or anyone else as a birt.

356

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 22/03/2008 21:50:09
The encumbant Labour party and leaders that chose to follow the simpleton in the USA did so knowing it was wrong. They did not listen to the real evidence from the UN weapons inspectors at the time and dont have any excuses. It was and continues to be an illegal war and in our name has made the UK and Scotland rogue countries that technically match the qualifications of terrorist states - the leaders of which should technically be brought before the Haig for war crimes.

For this paper to do anything except call for the resignation of the labour leaders and a new election forthwith is having the effect of marginalising itself from the real readership of Scotland. It should not calling itself the Scotsman - rather the Labour Party Mouthpeace.

For years Labour had been in charge in Scotland and for years it has continued to inflict corruption and poverty - This paper should see the writing on the wall or slink away and die
357

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/03/2008 22:01:15
The only bigger picture, that (has been) is being missed, is the very large one of 1 000 000 needlessly dead - Iraqi, British, American and others.
358

Stepford Nat,

22/03/2008 22:15:06
423
Go on Hen, he deserves it.
Alex is brilliant, isn't he?
www.snp.org
359

AJ Fife,

22/03/2008 22:23:59
Very interesting thread today, and in the debating contest, I now make it -

Nationalist minded people 2347 Kimba 0, based on capital letters used when losing the argument!
360

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 22/03/2008 22:40:30
A rare, thoughful, well written article in the Scotsman, no byline?
361

Ultima Thule,

In the dawn 22/03/2008 23:23:22
#427, Frank.

I agree entirely. The missing picture IS the 1 000 000 needlessly dead.
362

Alan from Brussels,

Brussels 22/03/2008 23:53:01
This is an amazing headline from such a newspaper. I have read many threads over time but for the Scotsman to place such a loaded headline is truly to show their colours beyond doubt.
363

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

23/03/2008 05:26:45
Wendy Alexander proved the indifference she had for the Scottish voter by stating that this was a question for Westminster. She has no credibility given the enemy of faith is indiffernce.
364

Conway,

23/03/2008 13:49:02
Iraq and Afghanistan are two different wars,Canada and New Zealand are two countrys that are very pro western but do not support the war in Iraq but are helping out in Afghanistan.
AM2 and the Scotsman no matter how much you try to support your Labour paymasters ,the war in Iraq was illegal under international law check out http://www.globalpolicy.org/ for an international point of view. It appears AM2 that you have a very inward point of view of the world.Unlike our SNP government who want to engage and be part of the whole world.
365

Lovepan,

England 23/03/2008 16:14:37
#48 - good point.
Lots of people opposed the Iraq war - not just Scots!

It seem sthat Salmond opposes everything - didn't he say that sending troops to stop the ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia was 'folly?'

God help us.
366

Stefania Alvarez,

23/03/2008 18:23:06
Of course Alex Salmond is simplistic ... you expect that ... but then again he does not 'actually' run a government so does not have to
... make any real 'tough decisions'

Salmond can easily sling mud ... secure in the knowledge that he runs a glorified Town Council rather than a government.

He can make stupid statements as much as he wants because the parochial gold-fish bowl that is Hollyrood is not a real parliament.

This story is a non-story.
Salmond is just a parochial nobody running a provincial non-event.

Scotland deserves better.

Alex Salmond ... and indeed this so-called parliament are rapidly making Scotland the butt of everybody else on this planet's jokes
367

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 23/03/2008 20:24:07
#444 S.A Wherever the hell you come from you are so wrong. Many many countries in Europe and those just joining are carefully watching the progress of the devolved politics evolving at Holyrood.If you judge Salmond as "simplistic" you must rank as moronic and show no grasp of what is happening in my Country.The joke, my strange commentator, is your asine deductions of events. Jump back into your simplistic box of irrelevances and schoolboy wisecracks.
368

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 23/03/2008 20:44:56
Administrator Would you kindly tell me why in a reply to AM2 you blocked out my comments. There was nothing offensive or rude in my submission. A reason for your actions would be appreciated. I posted it around 3.40 this p.m.
369

Alan Reid,

NZ 24/03/2008 09:25:18
Interesting
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=542731&in_page_id=1770
370

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks California 30/03/2008 02:42:37
There are totally separate issues here, I am not currently in Scotland but I AM SCOTTISH. I believe that an independent Scotland is an oxymoron. We are British, and we should be proud of it! As for the quote attributed to Bernard Williams, re lingering doubt! How do you think Mr Blair feels about it, clearly he has very dirty hands.

 

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