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Salmond targets Qatar for cash

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Published Date: 28 September 2008
ALEX Salmond is to ask a cash-rich Arab state to stump up billions of pounds to pay for desperately-needed upgrades to Scotland's creaking road, rail and power networks.
The First Minister will head to Qatar next year with plans to persuade the oil-rich emirate to act as Scotland's banker. Salmond wants Qatar to loan funds for massive capital projects the Scottish Government cannot afford, including the £4bn new Forth Road Bridge and a £5bn undersea electricity cable.

The plan – dubbed by critics a "Middle Eastern PFI" – would involve the Scottish Government paying back any loans over decades.

Labour last night warned the plan could lead to Scottish assets falling into the hands of foreign owners, who stood to make huge profits out of any investment.

But observers say Salmond has few options: the Scottish Government has too little surplus money in any year for major projects and the SNP has itself ruled out conventional PFI funding.

Governments across the Western world are looking towards the Middle and Far East to secure finance from their sovereign funds, the state-owned investment funds which nations such as Qatar have built up on the back of huge oil profits.

Qatar's fund alone is now believed to be worth $60bn, a figure which is expected to double by 2010. The International Monetary Fund, a global organisation which lends money to struggling nations, says that total investments by sovereign funds will hit $12,000bn by 2012.

Any deal with Scotland would see a foreign sovereign fund paying up-front to build a major project, and then being paid back over a number of years, with interest.

The Scottish Government is understood to have already begun preliminary talks over the plan for a huge under-sea electricity cable in the North Sea, which would allow wind and wave power from the north of Scotland to be transmitted to the south of England.

Bankers are already eyeing up major projects, such as the new Forth Bridge as a possible contender for Middle Eastern investment.

One Edinburgh banker said: "The Scottish Government is looking at sovereign funds, along with everyone else. This is a fact. You follow the money and it goes to the Middle East. They are trying to do just that."

Scotland on Sunday can reveal that Salmond has personally requested that the Islamic Finance Council – a Scottish-based body which represents Islamic financial interests – to explore "the possibility of using Islamic financing structures to address the infrastructure needs of Scotland".

Under this scheme, ministers would issue a special bond which meets Islamic ethical investment standards in return for up-front funding – known as a Sukkuk. The UK Treasury is understood to be about to issue such a bond later this year.

It is required if governments are to fully tap into the vast resources held by the Middle Eastern sovereign funds.

Omar Shaikh, a board member at the IFC, said the moves simply reflected the new world order in the wake of the credit crunch, which has seen loans from banks dry up.

He said: "Where is the money at present? It is in these sovereign funds. You are looking at £5 trillion of wealth. It is a problem for them to find quality assets to invest in."

Of Salmond's visit to Qatar, he added: "This kind of plan is something we have been promoting for some time. Scotland is actually slow in getting off the mark here. Obviously, it is important that Scotland gets the best deal, but it is also important that we deal with those who have the money."

The Qatar visit has been planned for some time and follows similar visits by political leaders in both Wales and Ireland. A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said: "The Scottish Government is in ongoing discussions with the Qatari government, exploring options for a possible visit by the First Minister intended to establish broader business and investment links."

A source close to the First Minister added last night: "In challenging economic circumstances, it is even more important that the Government pursues every single business and investment opportunity to grow the Scottish economy."

The potential for a deal is nearly limitless, say finance chiefs. A report by the IFC to the Scottish Government, submitted earlier this year, specifically focused on the Forth Road Bridge.

It declared: "Market reports indicates that the Scottish Government is looking for funding of £3bn+ in the coming years, indeed the cost of a new Forth Road Bridge is estimated to be between £3.2bn and £4.2bn. Within the budget constraints that the current Scottish Government has to work within they need to look for more radical funding streams, different funding streams, innovate funding options."

The IFC says the taxpayer could be better off under such an arrangement than under the old PFI scheme, as rates of return would be more attractive.

The task of securing funding for Scotland's major infrastructure projects has now been handed over to the Scottish Futures Trust, headed by Sir Angus Grossart.

However, Labour last night said the plans smacked of hypocrisy. Finance spokesman Andy Kerr said: "For Mr Salmond and his party, who spent the last few months and years telling the people of Scotland that they were against private profit in public services, it is ironic and hypocritical of them to be now chasing sovereign funds in the Middle East."

He added: "However, given the record of recent sell-outs by the SNP, the people of Scotland will be not be surprised. They have spent the last 18 months trying to replace PPP, shattered confidence in the marketplace in Scotland and came up with the Scottish Futures Trust, or as Unison and almost everyone else would call it, PPP Mark Two. Now they know they have a problem funding their commitments they are off to the Middle East to sell Scottish assets to foreign investors."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 September 2008 9:08 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Government spending
 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 00:05:46
If Salmond wins his referendum in 2010 as he claims, then surely borrowing money from Qatar will be unnecessary.

All these huge North Sea oil revenues will start flooding in and we will have unlimited wealth to spend.
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 00:13:42
And don't forget that in 10 years time, all families in Scotland will be £10,000 a year better off.

Well thats what John Swinney says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7089402.stm

The Scottish Government is to start a consultation in the next few weeks on replacing council tax with a local income tax.
Finance Secretary John Swinney said the plan is part of a 10-year economic strategy to make households £10,000 a year better off.



3

Highland Property Bubble,

Inverness 28/09/2008 00:14:07
Wee Eck proposes selling Scotland's infrastructure to the Middle East.
This man should be sectioned before he does any further damage to the reputation of our once great nation.
4

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 28/09/2008 00:14:24
It is surprising but welcome to see that Rufus T Firefly realises that Scottish independence will free up cash from the North Sea Oil. Until we have independence like Qatar we will need to borrow from them. When we have our wealth restored to us we will be able to repay the loans. In the meantime there are other things we could do for our mutual benefit.
5

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 00:23:49
So every family will be £10,000 a year better off. Thats pretty good. Makes you want to vote SNP. That could pay for 4 or 5 holidays a year. I wonder how John Swinney costed it.

It beats me why Salmond needs to go running cap in hand to Qatar when we will all be so wealthy from Scotland's oil.

Here is another link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7099163.stm

Mr Swinney and Mr Salmond both spoke of a "new age of ambition" for Scotland when they appeared at Glasgow University on Tuesday to unveil their economic strategy.



MSPs voted to scrap tolls on the Forth and Tay road bridges

They repeated their target of raising Scotland's economic growth rate from the present 2.3% to the UK level of 3% by 2011.

And then they had a dream: an independent Scotland, matching the 4% average growth rate of other small European countries, by 2017.

Each household, said Mr Swinney, would be £10,000 a year better off.



6

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 00:29:26
All those people on benefits will never need to work again. Once they add £10,000 a year to their benefit allowance, they will be rich beyond their wildest dreams.
7

Jock Thomson,

Ayr 28/09/2008 00:34:54
Alex Salmond has eventually had to break cover in a desperate gamble to secure funding for his infantile Socialist plans.

We all gave you so much space, Alex, in the hope that you might grow into the job and use your (alleged) financial skills to turn Scotland around. But what do we get in return for our trust?

A bended knee approach to an intolerant Middle East dictatorship for cash to finance hopeless and ill-conceived projects equal to the worst that Labour has ever produced.

A multi-billion project to transfer a pathetic amount of power from a Utopian scheme to harness wind and wave power from technology not yet developed. Funding for a new Forth bridge needed only because of the sheer lack of joined up thinking. If you live in Fife, then you should be able to work in Fife. If you are heading for Victoria Quay by the way, then your journey is probably a waste of everyone’s time in the first place.

I could go on but what is the point. We have backed yet another loser and we are rapidly running out of options. Not only that, but we are about to allow a foreign power to get their hands on the title deeds of our country, courtesy of yet another cheapskate politician.
8

Stepford Nat,

28/09/2008 00:37:18
4 Lara

He is not. Like Simon on X Factor, you perceive whichever one you're watching as by far the worst ever. There are certainly many worse than him.

www,snp.org.qa.uk - Independence, insha' Allah!
9

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 00:53:43
Better to go to Qatar for dosh than Westminster, eh no, Rufus?

At least Qatar now knows where we are.

And besides, do you have a problem if Government borrowing goes to the lowest bidder for a change?

Eh?
10

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:01:59
Jocj Thomson, you should try Kenfitamine instead of Lophretamine.

Any country begging for money is depressing enough. But they're all doing in a global credit crunch.

Shame about Scotland though. Aye, there's the union for you.
11

,

28/09/2008 01:05:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:08:03
The remarkable thing about this story is the way the journalist wavers from the party line as the article deepens.

Deepens, Labour numpts - that is you shallow lot out of your depths for a start.
13

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:10:08
17, Lara. Yes, I know. Yes, I know.
14

Stepford Nat,

28/09/2008 01:11:58
15 Lara

but I'm one of you's

www snp,org.uk "All Eck is saying, is give pies a chance"
15

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:16:39
That should be 19, Lara etc

26, Stepford. A pie's a pie for a' that.
16

GM,

28/09/2008 01:17:31
Read this so-called piece of journalism and weep...

If there is such a music as unionist barrel scraping then now is the time to play it.
17

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:18:18
bto. How were your predictions with the football today? Points?
18

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:22:41
Agree, 29, GM. We could have had an article about the normality and globality of this kind of lending.
19

Bzzzz,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 01:24:59
They've always got the "SNP to twin an independent Scotland with Al Quaeda" tucked up their sleeves.. honestly these guys are idiots.
Clear evidence to me that the union is dead.
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 01:25:53


bring them on ~27,

"As for his brain...."

The Headline Says it All!! :D

Dreams of the,...'Wise-Men' on Camels, bringing riches!

Problem being!, there is NO Jesus, this time in the crib!


21

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 01:26:05
flippen liberty whoever thought of selling off our precious Scottish resources, next thing they'll be wanting to sell off the whisky industry, or give the Spanish our fishing grounds or just flogg our land to any old soul from who knows where with a few bob to spare.
No, n!p(cyberpolis) this in the bud now, or before you know it there'll be nothing left to call Scottish in this country and our children's birth right will be in the hands of Johnny Foreigner, is this what we want to leave to future generations?
22

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:26:21
bring them on. Don't you boast on football threads about how much you can cause havoc on on non football related threads? Well, I am now on 22 points on the forum. How many are you?
23

GM,

28/09/2008 01:27:28
@31
and expect more of the same as we approach the Glenrothes by-election.

More doom and gloom from the 'ye can't do that' unionist brigade who seem never to learn from the various spankings delivered in May 2007, Glasgow east etc.



If I didn't know better, I'd assume from such blatant transparent and obvious propaganda that The Scotsman was actually a thinly veiled nationalist journal, geared towards turning voters away from the 'union dividend'.
24

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:29:40
livilion@34. If I was the last Scotsman in Scotland, you can rest assured that I would leave my country in good hands.

Sorry, Westminster, not you.
25

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:31:04
Ah, GM. Is there a crop of you?
26

Jock MacSprog,

28/09/2008 01:32:00
i think its absolutely hilarious that this party that so yearns for independence is constantly having to turn to other regions and countrys to support Scotland. Southeast England, Qatar, the US, etc etc. ALso, why does the journalist refer to the "Scottish Government" in the article ? There is no such thing, this is a term that was made up by the SNP to pretend Scotland is a Nation. THe legal name (and that which appears on all official documents) is the Scottish Executive. I could put a sign that says Buckingham Palace outside my flat, but sadly that would not make it so. Pretendy, populist politics at work again by the SNP. I wake up each day and look at the papers to see what new, daft, bizarre utterance has come from the mouth of he of the multiple chins. Its a laugh a minute with the Gnats !
27

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:34:51
GM, 36. It was always mooted that the Scotsman was run by closet nationalists.

This time, though, courtesy of Johnston publications, I'm not so sure.

I think that they are just plain daft.

28

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 28/09/2008 01:35:31
Jock Thomson #14 displayed hi ignorance by saying "A bended knee approach to an intolerant Middle East dictatorship for cash to finance hopeless and ill-conceived projects equal to the worst that Labour has ever produced."

Alex Salmond will not be bending any knee. He will be discussing a loan on commercial terms and the Qatar sovereign fund will discuss the terms with him.

You would do the same thing if you wanted a bank loan.

Apparently you don't consider it important for Scotland to build up its decrepit infrastructure. It wouldn't have that problem if it hadn't been treated like a colony by the Westminster government for so many years.


29

GM,

28/09/2008 01:36:21
@40

the cringe factor in full flow...

Lets not forget how the tinpot 'government' in scotland is nothing more than a mere 'executive' department of westminster.



Keep it up lad... these kinds of contributions have driven up the popularity of the current scottish administration!
30

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:39:01
Thank you Lara, 41, I am truely honoured.

McSprog. The sun rises in a few hours. I will be a cross at your place then.
31

dude,

wishaw 28/09/2008 01:39:50
for all you unionists out there, does it not disturb you that to get any money for infrastructure other than rip off PFI we have to go to another country for this help.

if the union was so great could we not just ask the BOE for this money?
32

GM,

28/09/2008 01:41:48
@46

don't put him off Lara... I love it when a self-serving unionist appears to remind me (and others) how we used to swallow the lies but have now awoken to the spin, obfuscation and spin of the 'union at *any* cost' contributors.


Time and time again I see their tissue of 'truths' dissolve under scrutiny.
33

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 01:46:44
Hello? Unionists? Are you there?
34

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 01:50:15
37 Jock Tamson
Well if you are intent on leaving don't let the door hit you on the chorus on the way out.
35

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 01:52:28
51 Lara Crofter
Perhaps we are being subject to windup merchants and Telegraph readers passing themselves off as natives?
36

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 28/09/2008 01:53:59
50* yes, but there not all there, but then they never were!
37

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:12:49


Underdogs have to 'cling-on-to-srings'

Scotland! What Scotland,?
38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:13:55


Underdogs have to 'cling-on-to-strings'

Scotland! What Scotland,?
39

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:19:03
57, bto.
Talking of wind breaking, I had a very good 4 today. That was on the predictor of course.
40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:19:06


bring them on ~61,

Lara is lovely name, taka a neb,

.............

The girl's name Lara \l(a)-ra\ is pronounced LAR-ah. It is of Latin origin, and its meaning is "protection". From "Lares", referring to the individual gods of Roman households, the protectors of home and fields. Also possibly (Latin) "cheerful; famous". It may also be traced to the Greek Larissa. Lara is popular in Russia; it is also a Spanish surname and place name. Literary: name of a central character in Boris Pasternak's novel "Doctor Zhivago". Actress Lara Flynn Boyle.
41

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:19:52
57, bto.
Talking of wind breaking, I had a very good 4 today. That was on the predictor of course.
42

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:21:04


And! LONG-LIVE the new Flag on Edinburgh Castle!

The Polish Flag!
43

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:21:06
Oh dear, I just rejavascript:__doPostBack('wctlAddComment1$ctl00$btnPost','')
Post Commentpeated myself
44

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:22:37
Charles, would you not rather make love to DYW?
45

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:23:31



Col. Blimp­IV* ~67,


Sad as it maybe I speak the Truth, the "Puppets" are US!
46

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:24:40
70. bto, had that one down as 1-0. Got a point though.
47

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:31:57
If anyone knows how I managed to write that @69 then please tell.
48

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:33:13


Jock Tamson ~71,

Yes! 'of-course',..but,..

DYW is going through an extremely difficult, emotional time at present, after IVF Fail.

I am NO rookie in life, and what it brings, but this time, in this situation, it takes all life's learning to be understanding.

49

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:35:06


bring them on ~78,

YES! Born and bred in Gorgie!
50

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:35:10
No, bto@78. I made a mistake. Had Falkirk down for 1-0. Dundee United v Hearts I had as 1-2.

Not telling what I have for tomorrow.
51

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:41:03


Col. Blimp­IV ~84,

Be Serious! you told me to "Cut the Strings"! :D
52

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:41:09
Charles, perhaps you can be too understanding. Yes, I know, it comes with age but just get in there and dae it.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Once DYW turns into a breeding penpusher then you know the odds turn against you.

Get back to nature. Get those thingybits juicing up.
53

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 28/09/2008 02:52:40
Oh, dear Lord, is that the time? And it is not Hogmanay.

Sorry, Charles, no offence intended. Bit tiddly tonight. Hence the flippancy and lateness.

bto. You do realise that after tonight - when I am sober - I will criticise you like f c k.

Thank you ColB, 90. I did not know I could even do that - and I passed a pilots aptitude test. But I was sober when I did that.
54

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 02:55:30

Jock Tamson ~89,

"just get in there and dae it."

If only!, But I am not like that, one may say, that's why I fail in life, I cant change to who I am, and who I am meant to be,

Wisdom does not fail, it only challenges, if the challenge is greater than the Wisdom, one can only learn, albeit one we never expected.
55

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 28/09/2008 03:18:56
The Conservatives sold the Skye Bridge to Bank of America, Labour has sold the airports to Spain, the nuclear power stations to France, etc, etc, etc.

At least we still own Edinburgh Castle . . . oops, part of that belongs to Nova Scotia.
56

W Smith,

Middle East 28/09/2008 03:49:26
Interesting.

Here is the anti-British monarchy SNP looking to an arab royal family for cash.

1) The present Emir of Qatar became ruler after kicking out his dad from power. His dad was on holiday at the time in Switzerland and was told in no uncertain terms not to show face.

2) Palestinian supporter and friend of Galloway Mr Ernie Ross formerly Labour Party MP from Dundee has contacts with the Qatar Royal family.

3) The Qatar royal family own Al Jazeera which always has the latest video from Osama Bin Laden to broadcast to the world before any other TV station.

4) Qatar is not a democracy and still has the death penalty and its strange that the anti-death penalty SNP should have dealings with this regime.

5) The Qatar Royal family own and control the oil and gas revenue. Imagine the fuss the SNP would make if the UK's oil revenue was controlled by Prince Charles.

BTW
With this cash the SNP will be obliged to see more mosques are being built in Scotland and that all muslim terrorism can be excused using Israel as Islam's sick note.

Oh..sorry ....I see Alex Salmond's doing that already.
57

Weegiewarbler,

Docked 28/09/2008 03:53:05
Sensible man:

Borrow at the best rates available under the best terms allowable.

Broker the best deal feasible for the nation after decades of London mismanagement and underinvestment in infrastructure.

Work for control of your own destiny and the ability to eliminate obligations in the shortest term feasible.

Let us realize that at this time, Scotland (plc) as an apparent direct result of Westminster mismanagent has infrastructure issues that are in what can only be described as "dire straits".

To get the investment, the infrastructure must be in place, and to get the infrastructure up to date takes money.

Well done to the Scottish government for trying to broker the best deal for the Scottish nation.
58

democracy,

Scottish Borders 28/09/2008 04:35:25
Oh dear, listen to all those New Labour cry babies worried to death that Salmond is going to get his funding from a more reliable and fairer source than their own greedy little PFI sources where even the New Labour politicians were creaming it!

Now they are not happy that Salmond and Scotland might succeed without them, so they are all out in force stamping their feet in total frustration just like the little children they all are and also proves all they care about is themselves and their duplicitous party and stuff the stupid people of Scotland!!
59

somerferg,

perth 28/09/2008 04:38:55

#102 - not to sure what "sruggling" actually means. Possibly a term of endearment?? All I do know is that you anti SNP posters are becoming more and more desperate and seem to bring no more than a few badly chosen insults (trying to link the SNP with AlQueda seems to be a favourite especially from the clown who apparently lives in the middle east!!) to the forum. Surely it has nothing to do with an upcoming by-election?? Seems like a good idea and good on Alex Salmond - as usual looking after Scotland's best interests and doing it in a professional way - sometime that the liebour/tory/fibdems could never do because they are all too buzy tugging the forelock as Wasteminster lackeys.
60

,

28/09/2008 05:38:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

28/09/2008 06:17:46
The only true alternative of course is to give Scotland full autonomoy over its own income and resourses.
The Barnett formula pittance just doesnt cut it.
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:27:01
40

Idiot boy the US is turning to the middle east to borrow 700 billion to bail out the NYSE and they are the most suceessful independent nation on the planet more so even than the UK who also borrows massive sums of money.
Its how all Independent countrys work under capitalist regimes.
What this emphisises of course is one think Small nations with large resourses fair better than even large nations with large resourses and certainly large nations with little or no resourses because they either dont have to borrow or they borrow less.
If Scotland had full control over its on fiscal resourses it would have to borrow a penny.
63

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:27:55
110

If Scotland had full control over its on fiscal resourses it would have to borrow a penny.

Should read wouldnt have to borrow a penny of course.

Sorry about that.
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:28:46
Mr Salmond of course is very cleverly exposing the "union dividend" to Scotland.
65

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:29:07
And what price the Tram project now?
66

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 06:31:07
101

Israel of course doesnt rely on the US for billions to prop it up and the UK government has never ever touched a penny in middle east money.
Ever Ever.
67

,

28/09/2008 06:52:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
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68

Walter Ego,

Durness 28/09/2008 06:55:21
So much for the much vaunted Scottish Futures. Salmond goes cap in hand to Qatar. You couldn't make it up.
69

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 07:03:28
116

WTF do you call the Barnett formula if it isnt Scotland with its cap in hand?
70

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 07:06:34
We have money to burn when it comes to trams, but we have to ask Qatar for a sub to fix some potholes. What a freaking joke.
71

Alan Reid,

NZ 28/09/2008 07:22:13
101 W Smith,Middle East: "Qatar is not a democracy and still has the death penalty and its strange that the anti-death penalty SNP should have dealings with this regime"

Eh, and does not the US have the death penalty? Think before you type, f@ckwit.

102 bring them on, "Sruggling Salmond (an expert economist, mind you) has made a complete diddy of himself with this childish (but dangerous) idea"

Maybe if Scotland had control of it's resourses it would not have to borrow money from abroad, same as above think before you type, you pr ick.





72

Alec M,

Falkirk 28/09/2008 07:22:42
Quote from the article : "Labour last night warned the plan could lead to Scottish assets falling into the hands of foreign owners, who stood to make huge profits out of any investment."

Of course, the same Labour lot would NEVER do that, would they???

EDF ? Just last week?
73

Chatatara,

28/09/2008 07:42:33
This is all good news. I dont earn 10,000 a year so does that mean I will now have my pay plus another 10,000.00??
74

cabrach loon,

inverness 28/09/2008 07:45:54
Time for Scotland to recognise its viability as a nation and break free. Switzerland and Singapore are two places to model itself on plus a bit from the Gulf States. Let's do it, and do it soon before westminster has squandered everything in the Broon Smear's debt!
75

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 07:51:39
"Governments across the Western world are looking towards the Middle and Far East to secure finance from their sovereign funds, the state-owned investment funds which nations such as Qatar have built up on the back of huge oil profits."

Not sure if anybody else picked this up or noticed the irony of Scotlands position today.

Qatar there but by the grace of God.
Norway there but by the grace of God
Bahrain there but by the grace of God.

Etc etc.
76

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 07:54:50
Hey parcelofrogues did you ever go to school?

Did you never learn how to spell you Thicko?

Now write this out 1000 times:

INCREASE and RESOURCE.

(not INCREACE and RESOURSE you dimwit)

These are not difficult words, my 5 year old daughter can even spell them. Just shows how patently stupid you are.

You come on here and insult anybody with an opposing viewpoint whilst you have the spelling ability worse than a 5 year old. What a fool.
77

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 28/09/2008 08:05:11
Turning to sovereign wealth funds as a source of Infrastructure funding is an excellent strategy.

One thing about the "Islamic" sources that you should be aware of is that according to Sharia the charging of interest is forbidden. So those giant middle eastern funds just have to sit as unproductive cash when not invested.

This means that they are very amenable to getting this money working. You could probably do a deal where they fund the entire project, get the revenue from it for a set number of years and then agree to sell it back in a set number of years at a set price.
78

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 08:09:06
#124, yes Chatatara, you will have your salary PLUS you will be the equivalent of an extra £10,000 a year better off.

Certainly thats what John Swinney says.

He did not make it clear however if it will be a transition process (£1,000 a year better off each year for the next 10 years) or whether it will be a big bang approach (in 10 years time we will all suddenly be £10,000 a year better off).

Either way, John Swinney should be warmly congratulated for making us all rich beyond our wildest dreams.
79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:11:32
128

And that from a tool who spells T R O L L as
Rufus T. Firefly.
At least my spelling is closer than yours.
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:14:14
128

Now right out 100 times

T R O L L

81

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:16:46
128

Of course all of that is in order to avoid dealing with the point made regarding your idiotic post.
Your standards even for a troll are pathetic.
82

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 08:17:33
Hey Parcel that was not a very resourseful reply.

Sounds like your blood pressure may be increacing to boiling point.



83

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 08:23:33
What about the Union Dividend?
84

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 08:25:45
Hey Parcel you dimwit, how does it feel to be on this forum, posting on every topic going 24 by 7? It must be exciting being you.

TIP: Buy yourself a Nintendo DS and do some brain training.

Come back in 6 months and we will test you to see if you have reached the bare minimum level of intelligence required to allow you to make some basic postings on this forum.
85

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:30:27
136

I dont know how does it feel?
6 months in troll school? is that all nae wonder yer cr*p at this.
When I graduate how many logons do I get to use?
86

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:32:51
134

But according to you its resourceful?
87

Pilrig,

Livingston 28/09/2008 08:33:47
135 - what union dividend ? Like working till you drop (Blunkett) or ID cards which we'll have to cough up for ?
88

Pilrig,

Livingston 28/09/2008 08:35:43
138 - don't fash yourself Broon is the man to lead us through these hard times,after all he has the qualifications. Hasn't he ? He hasn't ? !
89

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 28/09/2008 08:35:45
UK Govt are too busy rescuing Bradford & Bingley to worry about funding "North Britain".

An excellent initiative from Alex. AND if it winds up the unionistas, so much the better. :-)
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:36:04
138

Oh well thats no rascist in any shape or form nae wonder yer a Brit nat.
91

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 08:37:26
The new Forth Road Bridge is not due to be completed until 2017 at the earliest.

Salmond says the majority of us want independence and will vote for it in 2010.

Therefore we will all be rich beyond our wildest dreams well before work on the bridge begins. All that oil wealth will be flooding in.

So why do we need to go to Qatar to get funding for the bridge?

We are after all going to be one of the richest countries in the world, post independence, which after all will definitely happen in 2010 according to all the Gnats.
92

TWC,

Ayrshire 28/09/2008 08:39:07
It is because of people like Disnae Kerr that we cannot vote for Labour. Their inability to come up with Scottish Policies is killing the Party in Scotland.
Take control of Scotland's money and do something independent of NEW Labour.
Think up something original like SNP are doing, then you might compete.
93

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 08:41:20
Hey Parcel you need to brush up on your replies. So far they are p!ss poor. Very disappointing.
94

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:41:40
144

Well then we will have nae problem paying it all back with minimum interest due so what's your problem?
95

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:44:30
146

Yes thats right I only live and breath in order to try and post to your high exacting standards.
Your opinion is to die for.
96

Andra, Dundee,

28/09/2008 08:51:48
At least with PFI, the costs are agreed up front.
With Salmond's system I stand by for the first overspend. The bridge builders will take the Mickey - cost will double and we'll be worse off.
97

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 08:52:36
128 Rufus T. Firefly

You have no positive contribution to make so you resort to the lowest blogging denominator, the spelling critique.
All the while making primary school level errors yourself.

'Folks who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'

Does your spellchecker not also do punctuation and grammar?
98

Andra, Dundee,

28/09/2008 08:53:12
#149 - just like the Scottish Parliament and the Millennium Dome.
(Oh and it will all be delayed due to political indecision)
99

Scimiter,

Rugby, United Kingdom 28/09/2008 08:56:02
Looks like all you Scots will be living in Shangri la after you gain your independence, although you must not forget, Brown and co will be heading north soon as that is achieved, that bunch will soon find a way of ousting Salmond from his high position, once they get their sticky hands on the finances you are going to need all that oil money and some more to keep your heads above water!
Good luck to you all.
100

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 08:56:40
150

Leave the poor wee soul alone he has only just graduated from his 6 month course.
He is struggling enough just trying to pretend he's not a troll without worrying about little details such as hypocricy.
101

Wee Fred,

28/09/2008 09:02:57
This is a great idea - Get the Arabs to pay for the infrastructure and the tax payers can then be free to pay for the benefit cheats and cradle to grave social security scroungers.

Why did no one think of this before?
102

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 09:04:12
152

Well we cant all expect to have a rosy futures such as Englands outside the union.
What with a perpetual Tory government privatised NHS and post office, ID cards, 1000 days detention and climbing, illegal wars, Nuclear energy, never ending war on terror, Trident, new taxes, old taxes increaced above inflation etc etc etc.
Aye I may even be tempted to move down South myself.
103

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 09:04:28
In which currency will the loans be denominated? I would not imagine that Qatar would accept the loans being denominated in Sterling as they would be, in effect, taking a punt on the future value of the currency. Borrowing in a foreign currency can be very risky as you are vulnerable to any fluctuations in the value of the currency.
104

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 09:05:38
149 Andra, Dundee,
Simple, agree standards, dates and budgets beforehand, then write into the contract penalty clauses for defaulting on any of these. Fairly standard business practice I believe.

Of course it's a different proposition when you are not also trying to sweeten the same individuals to discretely contribute to your own party's funds, £9,999 at a time.
105

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 09:06:20
149

Oh aye nae chance of "over costing" with PFI right enough.
106

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 09:07:39
156

Aye right enough which is why it isnt done every day of the week.
107

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 28/09/2008 09:08:37
152 Scimiter

No you will get to keep Gordie as the last Union Dividend. He should be safe fully ensconced in the House of Lords as Lord Brokenbank when the referendum comes.
108

A Crofter,

Western Isles 28/09/2008 09:13:19
Lara Crofter - Are we related? I don't recall having had the pleasure.

And is this loony plan in any way related to the Worst Monster's recent £400,000 gift to the Scottish Islamic Foundation (prop. Osama Saeed, prospective SNP candidate for Glasgow Central)? This "Foundation" is merely a front for the Muslim Brotherhood, an extreme faction that actively promotes wife beating and female circumcision.

Watch out, Lara!
109

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 09:13:27
162

Oh look Rufus 6 months has resurfaced.
110

Scimiter,

28/09/2008 09:15:15
#155
Your right, most of which has been inflicted on our countries by New Labour, run by the Scottish Mafia of M.P's, as I stated good luck to you when they head north.
111

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 09:21:48
166 Le Tutin
That might be a possibility but it would depend on Qatar being willing to accept it. They may not have faith in the future value of the Euro relative to their currency.
112

allan58,

edinburgh 28/09/2008 09:23:13
Why not? Where does Westminster go when it wants to borrow money? International money markets! This is no different. Well, it IS different in one respect! Westminster is borrowing money for electoral bribes to stave off defeat! The transport, rail & power infrastructure throughout the UK is worthy of 4th world banana republic - NOT the world's (allegedly) 4th largest economy!! Why is this? Where has all the money gone?

If Scotland benefits form this proposal then go for it. The rest of the UK can stew. Thev "unionists" can take their gripes and jealousy to No 10
113

Thomas1,

// 28/09/2008 09:23:20
I'll bet you any money that at least half of you moaning whinging gits can't even get a credit card with a 1000 pound limit at a APR of about 18%.
114

vimto,

28/09/2008 09:23:44
Like i said salmond is going to put Scotland in debt for decades,but what does he care he's on the popularity trail.
115

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 09:25:11
166 Le Tutin
PS As I understand it, SNP policy is to remain with Sterling and then join the Euro at some stage in the future when conditions allow it. It may be many years before Scotland joins the Euro even if it does become independent.
116

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 09:35:22
3 pieces of information

1 In the most recent year for which figures are available (2006/07) the deficit in Scotland's budget was £2.7bn even taking into account a "goegraphical share" of North Sea oil and gas revenues. (Source : present Scottish govt)

2 North Sea oil/gas production forecast to fall by 10% p a (Source : International Energy Authority)

3 Norway has an oil fund but also charges a rate of 25% VAT (17.5% in the UK) including VAT on food (0% in the UK) with income tax also being much higher.

Two questions :

1 What is going to be the source of Scotland's supposed future prosperity.

2 Where is the money to pay back billions of loans to qatar going to come from?
117

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 09:35:53
#152 Scimiter

Didn't you know that? Yes, after Scotland leaves the Union, the country will actually be renamed Nirvana. And rightly so. The A90 will sweep majestically northwards across the Sultan Mohammed bin Bag Forth Bridge and the A9 will be paved in solid gold, all thanks to oil revenues.

Scotland will be free of the vicissitudes of the global economy, like all those other 'free' wee countries like Estonia (oh, sorry, biggest houseprice tumble in the world), Iceland (oh, sorry, banks on the edge of collapse), New Zealand (sorry, now officialy in recession) and of course, that great beacon, the Republic of Ireland (oh, sorry, third biggest fall in house prices in the world and now officially in recession)
118

,

28/09/2008 09:37:42
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119

TWC,

Ayrshire 28/09/2008 09:39:38
#171 Vimto
New Labour and Big brown have already got us into debt, just wait till he announces the public borrowing.
I want Old Labour back as Scottish Labour, controlling the purse strings and moving swiftly to the left, where SNP are holding all our cards.
The Holyrood front bench are not doing anything for Scotland.
120

,

28/09/2008 09:44:02
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121

,

28/09/2008 09:46:59
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122

donald,

glasgow 28/09/2008 09:50:53
Anybody would be more sympathetic than the anti Scottish Westminster Governments who have neglected and ran Scotland's economy and infrastructure into the ground.
123

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 09:52:11
167

Dont exadurate they only own the land sold to them by consecutive UK governments and Unioist Scottish lairds.

178

Dont hold yer breath theyre no here to debate.
124

donald,

glasgow 28/09/2008 09:52:51
Not a comment from the Brits who have sold their strategic energy, etc,to the French and Spanish? Waht a bunch of useless numpties. Gerrem out!
125

,

28/09/2008 09:54:15
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126

Nikostratos,

28/09/2008 09:55:48
Poem to the snps betrayal of Scotland


Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where Qatar province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The Qatar stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But Qatar gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for Qatar gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
127

,

28/09/2008 09:56:33
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128

Hubert Farnsworth,

28/09/2008 09:57:13
#126


Courtesy of the CIA - via blimp #59

Qatar Oil - production:
1.1 million bbl/day

Scottish Oil - production:
1.6 million bbl/day

Qatar gained it's independence from *guess who* in 1971.
129

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 09:58:03
Hey Suchabox of Spanners, I have already told you that I only have 1 Login. Why would I want any more?
130

tommy M,

scotland 28/09/2008 09:59:16
www.oilofscotland.org has very interesting look at things.
131

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 28/09/2008 09:59:42
So this is your big idea, Alex? Ho ho ho.
132

,

28/09/2008 10:00:13
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133

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 10:01:35
162 Bird of Prey
£20bn is less than 2% of UK GDP. However, I am not defending Brown/Darling on their handling of the UK economy - far from it. I agree that they have mishandled it and the borrowing requirement is going to shoot up to over 3% of GDP.

The point I was making is that their has to be a realistic assessment of what Scotland can and cannot do in future years. This is the aspect wich concerns me as so many (Alex Salmond included) are trying to give the impression of almost limitless finance available.
134

Hubert Farnsworth,

28/09/2008 10:02:22
# 169 Bird of Prey

Ask Ford Transit...He is forever taking screenshots of the RSS.
135

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:03:03
158

1 In the most recent year for which figures are available (2006/07) the deficit in Scotland's budget was £2.7bn even taking into account a "goegraphical share" of North Sea oil and gas revenues. (Source : present Scottish govt)


FFS ugly even for a lying t*at this is low.
Those figures DONT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT A GEOGRAPHICAL SHARE OF NORTH SEA OIL AND GAS REVENUES.
THE 2.7BN DEFICIT IS DUE TO SCOTLAND HAVING TO LIVE ON THE BARNETT FORMULA.

2 North Sea oil/gas production forecast to fall by 10% p a (Source : International Energy Authority)

Yes of course and the same sourse said it was going to fall over the last 10 years as well.

3 Norway has an oil fund but also charges a rate of 25% VAT (17.5% in the UK) including VAT on food (0% in the UK) with income tax also being much higher.

Norway only charges 50% on NS crude while the UK charges 75% on crude. So any difference is made up without having to take it from the tax payer you spinning little troll.


1 What is going to be the source of Scotland's supposed future prosperity.

Getting out from under the unionist lying theiving resource grabbing yoke will be a good start.
136

,

28/09/2008 10:03:27
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137

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 10:05:38
170 Hubert
Population of Scotland 5.1 million
Population of Qatar 0.9 million

Total UKCS oil production for last month of available figures 1.356 million barrels per day (source BERR)
138

,

28/09/2008 10:07:17
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139

,

28/09/2008 10:08:42
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Scimiter,

Rugby UK 28/09/2008 10:09:13
#166
Yes your spot on. We have been sold down the line by New Labour, which is controlled by and large by Scottish MP's
I hope for all the Scottish people sake, they do better when they are in control of Scotland.
141

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 10:09:24
175 Ugly George
Scotland needs to get off of the good ship United Kingdom before it sinks and takes us all down with it.

>>Gordon Brown has hidden liabilities worth more than £500bn, and the true size of the public debt is up to 87 per cent of GDP, more than twice the Treasury's 'sustainable' limit, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Using the government's calculations for the cost of public sector pensions, private finance initiative schemes, and Network Rail's debt, which the Treasury guarantees, the think-tank has reached a total figure of more than £1,100bn - twice what the Treasury admits to.<<

The Observer
Heather Stewart, economics correspondent ,
Sunday February 4 2007

And that was BEFORE the Credit Crunch...
142

The Strategist,

28/09/2008 10:09:33
#178

Quite... Labour have turned selling UK and Scottish companies to foreign buyers into an art form..In many sense it is the most industrial treacherous Govt ever.
143

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:10:55
170

And that lying 1.6 bn figure can be mulitplied by a factor of 10 at least. It originates from the UK government.

171

What am I your psychoanalyst? who could possibly fathom a mind like yours? didnt they cover the why in course Troll 101 then? get yer money back.
144

,

28/09/2008 10:11:19
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145

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:11:24
I wonder if Norway have been to Qatar to borrow money recently?


146

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:12:14
180

And the worst part is you dont think yer transparent.
147

Calvinist,

28/09/2008 10:13:33
What sort of joke is this? So Salmond wants to sell Scotland to Quatar? Does this mean after independence we will become a dominion of Quatar? What will the deal involve?The incorporation of Sharia law into Scots law? The man becomes more desperate by the minute.

Salmond is the funniest comedian we have produced since Billy Connelly.
148

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 10:15:13
177 suchaparcel of rogues
More false information and more insults from you

The £2.7bn figure does take into account oil revenies. Without those the figure is £10.2bn. If you don't believe me ask the SNP govt. These are their figures. So if I am, as you say, a "lying tw*t" then so is Alex Salmond

"The same source said it was going to fall over the last 10 years" Yes they did and they were right - it has fallen over the last 10 years as everyone recognises. Look up the BERR, RBS or IEA figures for yourself.

UK only charges 75% on a minority of the oild fields. The majority are charged at a special corporation tax of 50% - the same as Norway.

If you are going to hurl more abuse and insults then please make at least some attempt to get your facts right.
149

,

28/09/2008 10:15:29
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150

Hubert Farnsworth,

28/09/2008 10:15:57
179

The only significance of oil revenues re Scotland, is as a bonus.

Unless you are suggesting that alone among the people of this planet.

The beasts in the forest

The fowl That fly in the air

And the fish that swim in the sea

etc...etc.

The Scots are incapable of looking after themselves.

If so...could you explain why?
151

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:16:38
190

Independence.
152

Calvinist,

28/09/2008 10:17:29
190

Just ignore him he's a venom spitting hate-monger of the type that inhabits the fringes of the SNP.
153

,

28/09/2008 10:17:59
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154

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:18:19
193

So prove me wrong. And try using reliable non party political UK government sources to do it.
155

,

28/09/2008 10:19:45
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156

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 10:19:46
186 sucaparcelofrogues
You are saying that total UK oil production is over 16 million barrels a day - millions more than anybody else in the world even Saudi Arabia.

Do you really expect your comments to be taken seriosly.

Incidentally the figures do not just come from the UK govt - they also come from RBS.
157

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:20:16
Strange that all countries producing oil seem to have huge reserves of funds. Qatar £30 billion, Norway £100 billion..but Scotland has nothing? How did that happen?
158

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:21:43
198

Where does he dig up all these accounts from?
159

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:23:32
203

Best do your sums Ugly before taking this any further.
Here's a hint find out how much goes through Grangemouth a day then multiply it by 4.
160

,

28/09/2008 10:23:35
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161

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 10:24:37
200 suchaparcelofrogues
You have obviously not read my post properly as I have done exactly as you requested - I have included info that is not from the UK govt.
Are you saying that the SNP govt, RBS, IEA, UKoiland gas
and many more non govt organisations are all lying because their info does not agree with your preconceived views.
162

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:24:50
206

Yes of course nothing strange about you at all.
163

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:24:59
Anyone seen Scotland oil fund?
164

Hubert Farnsworth,

28/09/2008 10:25:09
204
Nevsky,

The Union Dividend...Slightly less Than the Bradford & Bingly

165

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:26:02
209

Yes ugly exactly there is only one original source for this information and only the UK government produces it the others you have listed take it at face value.
Christ your dumb.
166

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 10:27:43
207 suchaparcelofrogues
Having an honours degree in mathematics, I think I can do sums reasonably well. Anyway - why argue with me - I am only using info supplied by others - are they all lying or getting their sums wrong.
167

M.T.,

28/09/2008 10:29:53
Companies are going out of business regularly which means less taxes going into the system. Jobs are being lost every day and many are going onto benefit which is a strain on resources. People stressed due to financial difficulties could have the time to attend their doctor putting strain on the NHS. Others who are desperate could turn to crime, putting a strain on the legal system and perhaps the prisons. If we can borrow to modernise our infrastructure, jobs will be created, skills will not be lost, income tax paid and the investment will pay off.

Its a better idea than throwing ratepayers money into the black hole called "bank"
168

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:30:17
212 Hubert#

You mean Scotland would have been rich had it not been in the Union? I can't believe this...it's shocking, anyway i don't believe it i won't believe it.

We all know Scotland gets a better than can be expected deal from the union, Westminster and the unionists above keep telling us that so it must be true..hahahahahahahaha

Oil fundmust be somewhere..mm..now where could they have put it..should be a bank book with close on £100 billion?
169

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:30:37
214

Yes troll but as I explain earlier even the Scot government has to use data only supplied by the UK govt at face value as does everybody else.

See the McCrone report for the value of this data and its credibility.
The SNPs own oil production estimates in the 70s were too low because the UK government covered up the true value of the revenue and still do.
170

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:31:49
sm753#

How much is Norway in defecit again?
171

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:32:50
216

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Honours degree in maths and comes onto a blog calling itself ugly george in order to lie spin and deceive party political rubbish.
Why dont you use yer honours degree in maths to get yersell a real job then?
172

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 10:33:13
213 suchaparcelofrogues
more insults and more false info
The UK govt is not the original source of this info. Oil production platforms have meters which measure the flow of oil. That is why oil companies who operate the platforms are the original source and how bodies such as IEA have access to the info. through them and not just through the govt.

As I said before, please get your facts right.
173

,

28/09/2008 10:33:37
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174

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 10:33:47
Every way you look at this, it is PFI a.k.a. off-balance sheet accounting a.k.a. mortgaging the future and wasting taxpayers' money.
A better way of paying for a new Forth Road bridge would be to restore the tolls on the existing bridge and put tolls on the new bridge. Let the user pay is the best principle for big civil engineering projects.

175

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 10:34:25
221 suchaparcelofrogues
I have done
176

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:34:40
223

No the profits go to the companies the revenue goes to the government.
177

,

28/09/2008 10:35:11
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,

28/09/2008 10:35:31
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:35:32
225

Yes we can all see that for ourselves.
180

Nikostratos,

28/09/2008 10:36:11
http://www.sundayherald.com/oped/opinion/display.var.2453823.0.snp_making_wrong_deal_with_muslims.php



It's time for those who don't want to see Scots forced into narrow religious postures to carefully scrutinise the SNP's plans for Scottish Muslims. Perhaps the SNP aims to ensure that they fall under the sway of activists who make the younger generation conform to a rigid form of Islam. This might convince investors linked to conservative Middle Eastern interests that Scotland is receptive to their favoured brand of Islam. But it will be a tragedy if Muslims who came here to escape the restrictions of their own societies find their children are being groomed for a very different existence. The SNP's economic plans surely don't entitle it to play God with the future of an important and valued group of young Scots.


181

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28/09/2008 10:36:43
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Ugly George,

28/09/2008 10:36:49
219 suchaparcelofrogues
McCrone report was a projection only. Anyway you seem to be confusing revenue and production now. Do you understand the difference between the two?
183

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 10:36:57
178 The McKellarator

Has 'Labour' been asleep for the last 30-odd years?

Let's see:
Britoil, British Petroleum, British Gas, British Telecom, British Leyland, British Alcan, British Steel, British Rail,... That's just the ones with 'British' in the title I can think of from the top of my head, falling into the hands of foreign owners, who stood to make huge profits out of any investment

A case of 'don't do as I do...'?
184

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28/09/2008 10:36:58
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suchaparcelofrogues,

28/09/2008 10:38:22
222

Only the UK government compiles all of the data from all of the oil companies working in the UK sector of the North sea. e.g Conoco doesnt compile data on Shells activities and vice versa.
Honours in maths doesnt seem to equate to bright does it?
186

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:39:11
234

They dont compile data from other companies numbnuts only the govt does that.
187

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28/09/2008 10:39:31
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28/09/2008 10:40:56
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28/09/2008 10:42:11
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:43:17
232

The McCrone report was a damning indication of the deceit and lies perpetrated by the UK government over the true value of NS oil production revenue.
Nothing more nothing less.
And it was suppressed by the UK government for decades.
191

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 10:43:42
224 Publius
I presume you are in favour of tolling all (Scottish)roads and bridges, railways, trams, hospitals, schools etc, if 'Let the user pay' is the best principle for big civil engineering projects?

But then what is the Road Fund supposed to be that all road bridge users pay their licence for?
192

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28/09/2008 10:44:01
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:44:34
234

The revenue is the taxes you phuqwit.
194

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28/09/2008 10:44:40
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:45:29
234

And its taxed as crude not refined. The refined is taxed through VAT at the pumps.
196

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:46:47
244

No idiot conspiricy fact. A conspiricy theory has no evidence to back it up. The report is the evidence.
197

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28/09/2008 10:47:06
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28/09/2008 10:48:14
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28/09/2008 10:48:58
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:50:02
247

Corporation tax is paid to whichever country the corporation has registered itself with.
201

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 10:50:14
244 Pax Vobiscum
Here's the substance.
http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccrone_oil_reports.html#deficit
202

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 10:50:54
248

VAT doesnt go to the companies does it idiot boy.
203

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:51:28
Scottish currency as mentioned in the McCrone report would be the second hardest in Europe next to Norway (doing very well thank you)...alas..we don't even have a central bank in Scotland in fact we have 1 bank left...but we do very well from the Barnett formula neverthless so lets stick with the Union....
204

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28/09/2008 10:52:36
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Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:52:55
Scotland does not get 1 penny tax from anything,corporate, VAT or nowt else as far as i am aware it ALL goes to London and then we get handed back a few pennies, right?
206

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28/09/2008 10:52:56
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Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 10:52:59
240 suchaparcelofrogues
The McCrone report was a projection and hence, by definition,could not give a "true value" of revenue as McCrone did not know waht the future price of opil would be. He did not know that it would collapse to as little as $10 per barrel at one stage.

235
Wrong again - anybody (including RBS, IEA ) can compile the figures produced by each company. If the UK govt were (as you claim falsifing the figures by a factor of 10) anybody would be able to spot it.

This is indeed bizarre. You have a view on these matters and claim that anybody who produces current, analytical evidence (Scottish govt, UK govt. RBS, oil compaqnies, IEA. etc etc) which does not tie in with this are all lying but McCrone who was merely making a projection (as opposed to analysis of current events) has to be taken as gospel.
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28/09/2008 10:53:37
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28/09/2008 10:54:22
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28/09/2008 10:55:25
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Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 10:56:26
257 George#

Norway predicted that with oil they would be rich..and guess what..they are...not about predicting jack s**t..if Scotland had the wealth and infrastructure then Scotland would be wealthy..end of story and everyone knows it.

Stop perpetrating lies even a half-wit knows are not true for God's sake!
212

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 10:59:50
253 Nevsky,Moscow

McCrone reported the position of a Scottish currency in an independent Scotland. We don't have a Scottish central bank, we don't have an independent Scotland either, think maybe there's a link there somewhere?

So the only reason for remaining with the Union is financial?

Who else in history when offered their independence asked first 'how much'?
213

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28/09/2008 11:00:09
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Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:02:15
Scotland a country with oil but does not have 1 penny in reserve has to go to Qatar a country with a properly managed oil fund for finance.

If any unionist cannot see the irony in this you are even more of a joke than i thought.

Perhaps unionists could point out the strength of the Qatar economy before oil..as far as i know they had nothing..a country built solely on oil wealth and now in such a position to fund western countries.

Scotlands oil fund once agin £0!.
215

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:03:50
A recent newspaper and news broadcast covering the strike in Grangemouth oil terminal let the cat out of the bag with regards to NS oil revenue figures.
The report mentioned that 700,000 barrels of oil was processed every day and that Grangemouth handled 1/4 of all NS oil comming in.
So why dont you lying little trolls do the math for yourself. Try calculating NS oil revenue using $50 $75 $100 and $125 a barrel.
216

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:04:31
259

Where?
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28/09/2008 11:05:02
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28/09/2008 11:06:38
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:08:49
266

Dont forget crude is charged at 75%.
220

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:11:02
Scotland is a joke and has been brought to it's knees by the union; you lot are to blame for everything in Scotland as far as i am concerned and you make me want to puke.
The union has shafted Scotland in the past 30 years and everyone knows it. Just what the f**k is wrong with you people, you are the most pathetic, servile and despicable people in europe as far as i am concerned.
221

Ugly George,

edinburgh 28/09/2008 11:11:56
261/265 Nevsky
What "lies" have I perpetrated. I have merely quoted information from other sources on the current situation. I did not comment, at any stage on what the situation would have been if Scotland had access to oil and revenues in the past - I merely pointed out that McCrone was a projection and hence could not take into account the future variations in the oil price. How is this a "lie" - it is an obvious fact.

Please read what I actually say rather than what you think I said before accusing me of lying.
222

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 28/09/2008 11:17:03
Have you no heard that he who pays the piper calls the tune. I doubt you folk will want to dance to the Arab Jig and bear in mind these folk being Muslems, will want Sharia Law and Courts on every other street corner. Wake up for any sake before you go down the drain altogether.
One of the Proverbs says that it is better to live in a garret with a dry crust than in a large mansion and a nagging or contentious wife. Think who you would be getting into bed with and they would be calling the tune.
Shades of Jenny Geddes!!!!.
223

Ugly George,

edinburgh 28/09/2008 11:18:00
271
Analysis by CPPR at Glasgow University has looked this situation over the last 5 years.

They have shown that, for every one of those years, Scotland had a budget deficit even with its "geographical share" of oil revenues. This was as high as £4.6bn in one year - well over 3% of GDP thus precluding Scotland from joining the Euro if it had wished to do so. You say that "everyone knows" that Scotland would have been rich. Well CPPR at Glasgow Uni don't seem to know it ar are they lying as well.
224

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:19:02
And another important fact about NS oil production is they are not even going flat out. Some platforms are even sitting idle not because there is nothing to drill for but because there is no profit in bringing it up for the companies.
Now imagine what a state owned oil company could do well you dont have to because its already happening in the North sea over in Norway.
They rake in annually between 20 to 40 bn in NS revenue alone depending on oil price and they have less then 50% of the assets available to Scotland and they only charge 50% on crude.

Another union benefit for Scotland.
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Ugly George,

28/09/2008 11:20:41
270 suchaparcelofrogues
Only a small part of crude from the North sea is taxed at 75%.

The vast majority is taxed at a corporation tax of 50%
This means the oil is sold by the oil companies who then deduct their costs. The remaining profit is taxed at 50%.
226

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:21:48
272

Ugly you pass on party political lies and deceits thereby tarring yourself with the same brush so dont be modest.
What a waste of time for a Maths graduate with honours.
227

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:27:30
276

Oh Liar liar pants on fire

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/ria-north-sea-rules.pdf

Back tae the blackboard fur you.
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Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:28:19
274 George#

Just one question quite how has Norway managed with an economy that was less developed than Scotlands?

These figures DO NOT quote the investment and the infrastructre that would have been part of the oil wealth created.

Just check out what Norway has in terms of shipping, oil supply vessels, shipyards etc and compare to Scotland...we have NOTHING, we own nothing, we build and control nothing because 30 years worth of oil revenue has NOT been invested.

This was all possible now with oil. We now start from (if your figure sare correct) a base of a defecit because the country has been f***ed up by being part of the union.

229

vimto,

28/09/2008 11:30:58
161. Exactly,so why on earth rack up even more debt!
230

Ugly George,

edinburgh 28/09/2008 11:31:35
277 parcel
Are you saying that the Scottish govt has been "lying" over these matters as their analysis is the same as mine. If, as you claim, the UK govt has falsified the actual production of North Sea oil and the true figure is 16 million barrels per day (one of your claims), why don't the SNP compile the oil production figures for themselves to reveal such a blatant and obvious distortion - there is nothing to stop them doing so.
231

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:34:46
sm753#

Not quite a whacky as people like you selling their country down the river for 30 years for peanuts and not having the brain to realise it..
232

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:36:27
282

Wasnt me who reported it wasnt me producing the figures the source is the UK media and Newspapers no doubt derived ultimately from the UK government itself.
So dont blame me I am just the messenger.
233

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 11:37:05
#258 Pax Vobiscum

Which bizarre claim made earlier does the McCrone report not substantiate?

That it was suppressed by the UK government for decades?

That the Government publicly claimed that independent Scotland would be a new Albania while its own experts were saying the economic surpluses would be of such a magnitude as to be embarrassing.

That the government publically declared revenue from North Sea Oil to be around £800m when they knew the real figure was 40 times greater?

That the government were indicating oil would run out in the mid 90's and was hardly worth getting excited about

The then energy department director, an impartial civil servant of the day, Bernard Ingham, stated that 'undermining the SNP and its oil claims are part of my standard sales patter'

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2006-06-06c.119.0
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:37:31
282

Funnily enough that 2.8 figure ties in nicely with Norways.
235

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 11:39:17
279
You have to look at the whole picture.
Norway has an oil fund but it also has very high levels of taxation - 24% VAT (UK 17.5%), 12% VAT on food (UK 0%), income tax starting at 28% (UK 20%). It is, therefore using these high levels of taxation to fund its public services thus leaving the oil revenues reasonably intact to go into the fund.

But this is not the model advocated by the SNP for Scotland. They are not advocating these levels of taxation. They are saying that oil revenues can be used to cover the deficit created by high public spending and also leave an amount for an oil fund. You can't have it both ways. Which route is it to be?
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:39:39
282

Yes, the UK government is losing, or lying about, over 40% of its oil production

Yep that seems to also tie in with the McCrone report fae the 70s.

Dont you love it when all the pieces come together in a jigsaw?
237

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:40:36
287

Thats right Ugly and the full picture is you are passing on party political lies because yer paid to.
238

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 11:41:28
266 suchaparcelofrogues
Didn't they also say that the bulk of the crude coming out of the North Sea never comes ashore but is shipped out for export?
239

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:42:47
287

And yet its people enjoys a very high standard of living and very very very low levels of poverty now why is that you lying spinning little party political troll maths graduate?
240

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 11:43:26
No I'm not in favour of users of schools and hospitals (children, ill people) paying directly for these institutions, but I am in favour of users paying for roads, rail, trams, airports etc. People do pay train and tram fares so why not tolls for crossing major bridges? The main winners from the abolition of the toll on the Forth Road Bridge are Edinburgh commuters who live in Fife. If we fund a new bridge by borrowing money from Qatar in a quasi-PFI manouvre, the losers wil be all Scottish taxpayers.

By the way I would abolish the excise duty. Excise duty on fuel should be enough to fund road building and maintenance. Tolls should fund high-cost major projects like bridges.
241

Publius,

Givan 28/09/2008 11:44:28
my 293

This was a reply to Livilion #241 (if the moderator hasn't changed the numbers again!)
242

Heed thi baw,

28/09/2008 11:45:04
In a way you have to admire Salmond. He jumps onto any issue that he believes can could be changed to suit Scotland in a better way. Whether it be local taxation, the HBOS takeover, road, rail etc. He then gees up support for his proposals. This is all proper and what a Scottish First Minister should do and certainly was not done but any of his incumbants. However, there is a very real prospect of Salmond not delivering. He has to get LIT through. Last week he claimed he wanted to use £100 billion of Scottish taxpayers money to bail out HBOS, essentially nationalise HBOS. Now he is not satisfied even satisfied with a private sector bid and wants to find another consortium to takeover HBOS. Well Alex - we expect you to deliver on all of this. Now he wants to bring in middle eastern sovereign money to fund public infrastructure. Salmond wants Scotland to be independent from Westminster but clearly wants Scotland to be dependent on other nations and private sector investors.
243

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 11:46:10
284 parcel
Which newspaper?
244

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:46:11
291

Exactly what is the point of speculating what MIGHT have happened if we were "independent" 30 or 100 years ago? Futile.


Because it shows people the futility of remaining within the union and what its costing us.

And if there is "high public spending" (relative to who I wonder) in Scotland which I personally think is another unionist lie then its another union benefit and will disappear with independence.


245

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 11:47:41
The article says that Salmond's visit to Qatar follows similar visits from Wales and Ireland. Did the Welsh get any money from Qatar?
246

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:48:36
296

The BBC, ITV, SKY,The Times, the guardian, The daily Record, The Herald, The Scotsman, in fact it was national and in fact probably international as well.

Did you miss it it was such a big story too.
You were probably too busy graduating with honours.
247

Linda,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 11:48:51
No banking crisis in Norway or rest of Scandanavia.

If you ever doubted where Labour loyalities lie read Iain MacWhirter in to-days Sunday Herald.

Labour’s glee at the fall of HBOS risks backfiring
Iain Macwhirter on political capital

SCOTTISH LABOURITES at their conference in Manchester last week were practically punching the air at the collapse of HBOS. They think the crisis vindicates their Unionism and reveals Alex Salmond as a tartan fantasist living in an economic Brigadoon. Mind you, some Scots might prefer Brigadoon to Labourland.
248

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 11:48:54
287 Ugly George
In 1976 the UK Treasury was broke and going cap in hand to the IMF for a hand out of less than £3bn to keep the economomy afloat. This led to the infamous Winter of Discontent which left the dead unburied and rubbish piled high in the streets.

Now if The UK used this 'paltry' sum from North Sea Oil revenue to rebuild the City of London and invent Docklands with the 5th largest financial turnover in the world, and at the same time keep three and a half million on dole money, just think what could be done for a country with only a tenth of that population?
249

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:50:44
300

Just a coincidence Norway is a basket case and is ready to join the union because they cannae hack it in the real world.
250

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:51:08
sm753#

Learn the lesson you complete idiot:

'Exactly what is the point of speculating what MIGHT have happened if we were "independent" 30 or 100 years ago? Futile'

We don't need to speculate one bit just have to look across the North Sea to Norway.

Scotland made a massive mistake in not taking independence and people like you are making it again which is unforgiveable this time!!

If you don't wan't to speculate why are you on here day after day with figures 'speculating' just how bad Scotland would be under independence?????

I speculate that until Scotland is completely rid of people like you we will never be a prosperous nation..how is that.
251

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:52:21
301

You would think a maths graduate with honours would have been able to work that oot by now though wouldnt ye? at least and honest one would have.
252

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 11:54:07
301 Livilion
Why have mentioned "paltry" - I have not used that word.
Oil revenues were not used to for Docklands and the City of London - this was all prvate investment
253

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:55:41
sm753#

Where is the Scottish oil fund?
254

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 11:55:54
305 Salem
They would do if they thought it was a good, appropriate invesment for a bank.
255

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 11:57:59
Norway £100 BILLION
Qatar £30 BILLION SPARE CASH
Scotland £0 + barnett formula
256

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 11:59:29
290

Your joking??? who came up with that wee gem?
257

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:00:35
299 Parcel
Which of these used the figure of 700,000 being 1/4 ot total oil production? And why does that paper then not point out that this blatantly contradicts official BERR figures - surely a good story for any paper. Why don't you contact them and get them to run it if you are so sure of its accuracy.
258

Heed thi baw,

28/09/2008 12:01:51
#303

The difference with Scotland to Russia is that this is a free nation, where everyone is free to express their views and beliefs. What bothers many about the SNP cause is arseholes like you. You don't respect other peoples views and you ridicule others who don't conform to your political views. Scotland should be a country free of racism and bigotry. Your posts on this website are corrosive and devisive. You breed contempt and you are an embarressment and a disgrace to this brilliant land.
259

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:02:20
307

What missing oil? its the revenue figures they doctor not the crude or the barrels numbnuts.
They also do it with unemployment immigration and inflation or havent you noticed? everybody else has.
What a pr*k.
260

livilion,

livingston 28/09/2008 12:02:26
305 Salem,
“The Scottish Government has too little surplus money in any year for major projects”

For most of its existence the Scottish parliament has underspent its annual allowance. Yet we still wait for the A82 at Pulpit Rock on the main Glasgow to Fort William trunk route to be restored to a lane in either direction since before Masggie Thatcher became leader of the Tories.
Still, looking forward to a shot on the tram, eh?
261

weh,

28/09/2008 12:04:53
McConnell is an MSP but has come under pressure to resign his seat before replacing Richard Wildash, who ends his term as our man in Lilongwe in January.

Speculation is rife that his resignation from Holyrood is imminent. A Labour source revealed the leadership is considering holding a snap poll in Motherwell and Wishaw on the same day as the Glenrothes by-election on November 6.

The insider said: "They're weighing up whether or not the SNP are likely to win Jack's seat. If they think defeat is on the cards, they will try to wrap up all the bad news on one day while the US elections are still hogging the headlines."
262

Ugly George,

edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:05:02
310 Nevsky
As I pointed out in post 287 Norway has an oil fund but has very high levels of taxtion to fund its public services. You seem to want it both ways - you want an oil fund like Norway's but are you prepared to pay the same level of taxation as Norway?
263

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:05:49
312

I gave you the list of papers I know reported it in fact it was probably reported in every single mainstream newspaper in the country as well as the broadcast media so dont pretend you cant find it and who gives a sh*t what the Government stats and lies are the figures reported by the press where no doubt also given by a govt sourse where else would they get it from unless it was from workers at the plant???
264

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 28/09/2008 12:08:37
Alex, by all means prostitute yourself but don't prostitute Scotland. You are behaving like a spiv/speculator.
265

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:10:46
What a pity Scotland didn't have Oil and Gas like Qatar. They have gone from a goat herding, desert economy to one of the richest states on the planet in around 70 years.

Qatar Air is one of the best and most modern airlines in the world which offers an excellent service with a fabulous modern airport.

The country has Buildings and Malls which would grace any modern city in the world.

How lucky they are to have Oil and Gas. I hope they do lend us some of their wealth. Good luck Alex Salmond.
266

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:12:53
sm753#

I am not a facist, ethnic-cleansing Nat..but as usual unionists like this tag when everything else fails and does nothing to further your argument such as it is haha.

My point is clear..people like you and ALL unionists are and have failed their country, sold Scotlands wealth and watched the country sink to some of the lowest poverty levels in the western world.

Yet you are still prepared to defend to the hilt the system that created it and always will because you are too subservient to do anything else...quite what you are i don't know (the word has not been invented) but what you look like to the rest of the world is a laughing stock which is exactly what you and all unionists are at the expense of your own country of course.



267

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 28/09/2008 12:12:57
Thought you had devolution? You were sold a pup!
268

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:17:36
319 George#

I am prepared to be in a situation like Norways as opposed to that of Scotland's yes; not many on the bread-line in Norway from what i understand unlike Scotland of course.

Am also personally prepared to pay more tax for the benefit of Scotland, yes.


269

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:19:24
sm753#

Never mind spanner wriggling..i have asked you three times now where Scotland's oil fund is?
270

vimto,

28/09/2008 12:23:02
Nevsky. Think you should read this before talking cr=p about Scottish oil.
# North Sea Oil has not funded the Scottish spending gap, despite Scottish Nationalist claims to the contrary. In only five of the last 23 years have North Sea Oil receipts exceeded the cost of higher funding paid to Scotland. Even with current high oil prices, the income from the Scottish share of North Sea Oil only just covers the spending gap, and North Sea Oil output is projected to fall by 50 per cent by 2020.
271

European Scot,

28/09/2008 12:25:30
316 sm753

" And even the most pro-Nat projections based on the most heroically favourable assumptions show only a tiny net budget surplus, which will inevitably vanish like snow off a dike as the North Sea declines."

'Whitehall estimates suggest there could be another 39bn barrels left in the North Sea, as much as has been produced over the past 40 years. Lobby group Oil & Gas UK is more conservative, putting remaining reserves at between 16bn and 25bn barrels.'

Daily Mail
13 August 2008

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=449719&in_page_id=3

'Over the past decades the North Sea has become one of the Government's biggest corporate tax cows, generating more than £230bn in revenue since 1968. The Treasury is expecting to make around £10bn this year from oil revenues, though experts at Grant Thornton think this could rise as high as £16bn due to higher oil prices.'

Telegraph 22 Sep 2008

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/2790735/Gordon-Br

North Sea declines ? You will note, both publications are not exactly pro SNP.
272

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:27:11
320 parcel
Now you are contradicting yourself as you have stated that the figures you quoted must also be false as they arose from the govt. As I have said, if the figures are falsified, as you claim, anybody can expose this. Why don't you contact some source in the media and inform them of this so that the govt's alleged falsification can be exposed.

This is strange - you throw out accusations of lying at loads of people/bodies but when given a suggestion on how you can expose the lies in such a way as to embarrass the UK govt you give the impression that you can't be bothered to do so.

Also, if you wish to quote HMRC, look uo the oil/gas revenues for 2007/08. They show that total revenues were £8.05bn of which £1.6bn (less than 20%) came fom petroleum revenue tax (PRT charged at 75%) and the remaining £6.4bn came from corporation tax(normal rate + special rate totalling 50%). As I told you, only a minority of oil fields are charged AT 75% and the rest comes from corporation tax. Once again, you can see conclusively that the information I provided is accurate. That is why your repetitive, simplistic accusations of lying are false.
273

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:27:40
323

Where did I claim that? I claimed there were sources indicating that 700000 barrels of crude passed through Grangemouth every day and the sources said they handled 1/4 of all UK NS oil production and I gave you a list of those sources you did the sums yer sel.
So if the calculations come to 2.8 what are you shouting at me for? If you think its a lie then examine the source of the data it all leads back eventually to the UK government.

So you can squirm squeal and cry like a wee baby if you want but those are the facts so live with em everybody else does.
274

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:28:41
328#

Projected to fall by 50%, this is absolute garbage as only half of north sea oil reserves have been extracted as far as i am aware, never mind those awaiting development in deep-water west of Scotland.

Again the figures are based on Scotland WITHIN a failed union which has dragged Scotland to the level it is at the moment.

Scotland the only country in the world with a defecit on the balance sheet following their oil production...what utter utter utter garbage..even Qatar can disprove that, a country that started with nothing...

Vimpto..have you seem Scotland's oil fund..sm753 won't answer where it is.
275

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:30:03
326 Nevsky
So you are advocaating levels of VAT and Income Tax similar to those in Norway. Do the SNP agree with your policies?
276

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:32:03
332

Now you are contradicting yourself as you have stated that the figures you quoted must also be false as they arose from the govt

Thats always a possiblity Ugly but the contradiction isnt mine the contradiction is the source of the data.
If the your data sources and my data sources are the UK government then its obvious the UK government sources cant be trusted isnt it?
277

Hubert Farnsworth,

28/09/2008 12:32:31
Salmond should borrow one squillion dollars from the A-rabs.

If we default on the payments...The English will have to somehow *Nationalise* us!

We can't loose...Freedom...or a bumper spending spree paid for by our selfless benefactors from the south.
278

scottish person,

paisley 28/09/2008 12:34:16
Labour last night warned the plan could lead to Scottish assets falling into the hands of foreign owners, who stood to make huge profits out of any investment.
EDF, just another loebour initiative.

PFI springs to mind, glass houses. If it was not for maggie broon Scotland could pay its way quite easily.
279

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:35:15
sm753:

Ok so you will not answer where Scotland's oil fund is which is fair enough. I will tell you where it is, it isn't anywhere as the UNION has squandered it and mis-managed it...but you are fully aware of this, just choose not to answer as it would implicate your precious union as having failed Scotland.

Your next point:

'The past is mostly irrelevant'

Go tell it to Norway, i think they will disagree.
280

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:36:18
336

"You do understand that it's very much possible"

And you with your impeccable spelling too.

Stones and glass houses springs to mind.
281

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:36:24
334 Nevsky
You dismiss claims that North Sea oil production will fall by 50% by 2020 as "absolute garbage". As I said earlier the International Energy Authority predict it will fall by 10% per annum over the next few years. Compound this over 12 years and you get a much bigger fall. BERR, UK OIL and Gas, UK Offshore Oil Producers are all predicting a fall. They aso point out that production has fallen by roughly 50% in the past 8 years. These are the experts in the topic. Are they all talking "garbage".
282

beech hedge,

blairgowrie 28/09/2008 12:37:11
what is the union dividend answer we have been at war more or less for the last three hundred years to satisfy Englands lust for power. Also during that time the Scots have paid a terrible price in the death of our young and all our wealth being swallowed up in so called defence spending
283

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:38:25
335 George#

Norway and the Norwegians are wealthy George that is why they pay more tax-take and wht their country is vastly superior to Scotland.

I said i was personally prepared tp pay more tax for the benefit of Scotland i have no problem with that whatsoever.
284

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 28/09/2008 12:39:15
What a charlatan Salmond is. Who is going to replace him? They can't give the job to Swinney, Sturgeon doesn't want the responsibilty and MacAskill is round the twist.
285

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:39:29
336

OOOOH SM has just descibed how revenue fluctuates annually but of course it only fluctuates in Scotland no anywhere else in the world.
286

gee whizz,

Glasgow 28/09/2008 12:39:41
Independence ?? Your having a laugh - The economy in the hands of Qatar, the Queen still the head of State, pound sterling still in our pockets and in the meantime public services in Scotland are being cut with the savagery not seen since the days of Thatcher. I think the Scottish people are now waking up and beginning to smell the coffee. They've had enough of Salmond's deceit and are sick to the back teeth of school budget cuts. Is the Brigadoon bubble about to burst ???
287

European Scot,

28/09/2008 12:41:51
sm753

"You do understand that it's very much possible (even common) to have plenty of remaining reserves but reduced, and declining, production rates, as those reserves become more difficult and expensive to extract?

Yes, of course you do.

You do understand that it's very much possible (even common) to have plenty of remaining reserves but reduced, and declining, production rates, as those reserves physically have a reducing pressure, and so the flow rate decreases.

Yes, of course you do.
288

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:42:39
342

It is garbage George you may as well make predictions on the stock exchange regarding share prices.
Nobody knows whats going to happen if it was so easy to predict these global events we would all be billionaires.
In fact people speculate on whether oil prices will go up or down or oil production will go up or down over certain periods of time.

And thats all it is speculation and one mans guess is as good as anothers.
Christ your dumb.
289

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 12:43:17
340 Nevsky
So you want an oil fund - let me suggest the following. The Scottish govt approach the Chancellor and state that they are prepared to set levels of Income Tax at 28% (as in Norway), VAT at 24% (as in Norway) with VAT of 12% on food (as in Norway) In return the chancellor will hand over £5bn or £6bn per year to the Scottish Govt which can be invested in an oil fund. OK
290

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:44:00
348

Thats right so dont you feel a like a d*k right now?
291

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 12:44:47
The most frightening aspect surrounding the nationalist movement is the worship of the leader.

It is almost cult like. Salmond whether right or wrong will always be right in the eyes of the nationalist, which is frightening to say the least.

It is almost Derren Brown like hypnosis! Salmond speaks and the nationalists fall into a trance like state whilst nodding always in agreement with their saviour, king and liberator.

I am not sure whether this loan would be a bad thing or a good thing, it may well prove to be very successful, it may not. But one thing is for certain, had such a plan been proposed by labour or the tories, the nationalists would have been up in arms about it.

Salmond has become revered, he is god like to his followers. They cultivate, worhsip and adorn him with praise regardless of his actions.

Fanatical indeed!
292

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 12:45:17
342 parcel
So all the experts in the field are talking garbeage and you are right? Your usual method of debate.
293

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:48:23
352

What an idiotic post and comming from a maths grad with honours too you think that if the UK govt were to hand over the revenue from NS oil to the Scot govt Scotlands income tax would raise overnight to 28% VAT to 24% and food 12%?

And worse you think NS oil revenue is on 5 or 6 bn when Norway rakes in between 20 and 40 bn depending on the price of crude?

What a w*nker.
294

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:49:39
342

What experts Ugly there is only you and that other idiot SM Rufus 6 months.
Hardly a consensus of experts.
295

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 12:50:51
Incidentally i have been posting that Norways fund was £100 billion when it is nearer £180 billion...that is £180 billion reserve fund for a country the same size as Scotland, it is almost incredible...

Not quite as incredible as unionists still telling us that we would not be rich but hey-ho..we might just have made it into the black by a fiver eh?
296

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:53:16
354

Just when you think we have peaked the trollometer along comes another prat to floor the needle.
God I really hope this is the same prat I dont even want to think about there being a few of em out there.
297

TWC,

Ayrshire 28/09/2008 12:54:03
#354.
Our problem is we don't have anyone good enough to take him on, but worse than that he has all the policies which should be ours.
298

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 28/09/2008 12:59:01
The road tax fund should finance all road bridges, including the Forth road bridge.
299

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 12:59:38
354

" But one thing is for certain, had such a plan been proposed by labour or the tories, the nationalists would have been up in arms about it."

And the unionist trolls are not out in force with their party political hats on giving this idea a mauling simply because it originated from the SNP?

You get dumber by the day and I thought you had bottomed weeks ago.
300

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 13:00:07
362

We certainly pay enough to cover it.
301

Davie from Irvine,

28/09/2008 13:01:17
Media 1 @ 354, at your usual self i see.
302

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 28/09/2008 13:04:46
It would be interesting to find out where the bulk of the road tax money really goes and how much we are getting ripped off, this is an issue which should be challenged by nationolists and unionists aloike.
303

Davie from Irvine,

28/09/2008 13:05:56
excuse the typing errors.
304

vimto,

28/09/2008 13:09:53
271. And you are a billious,racist cretin,who blames everything and anything on someone else,you picked a great place to run to comrade!
305

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 13:11:15
368 Step#

One thing is for sure when it comes they will all dissapear like smoke and re-invent themselves as nationalists claiming they were all along of course, just like the Tories post-devolution.

306

vimto,

28/09/2008 13:12:12
368. Cretin!
307

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 13:15:53
371 vimpto#

Neither billious, racist nor a cretin but i guess it hurts you a lot when the truth is pointed out and especially the point regarding how the 'precious' union has been nothing more than a leech for Scotland.

Comrade is a word never used here i am afrad..it's 'tavarish' in Russian (just to help your education, but quaint that you revert to stereotypes in your unionist, imperial way.
308

vimto,

28/09/2008 13:17:32
376. How original! Totally nat like.
309

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 28/09/2008 13:21:04
Anyone, wherever they come from who has payed road bridge tolls anywhere in the UK has been ripped off and should like bank charges, demand a refund, road bridges should be funded from the road tax fund.
310

vimto,

28/09/2008 13:26:01
377. I'm afraid you wouldn't know the truth if it kick you up the backside,that is because you shut your eyes and ears and only see what suits you and only hears the chants of snp rhetoric,you are a sad, pathetic individual with a huge chip on your shoulder,please stay in moscow,we don't need your sort here.
311

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 13:26:40
The reason that most Scottish people want to remain within the union stems from the fact that Scotland doesnt need to be independent.

The nationalist approach to independence is simply that it needs to be done. If that is the case then why doesnt California just leave the United States and go solo? Why dont the EU nations just steer away from the Union? The reason is because mature partnerships exist to ensure that all parties concerned obtain far more together than they could ever obtain alone.

There is absolutely no logical reason why Scotland should leave the partnership! None at all.

And that is why the basis for the nationalist approach concerning this issue must be seen for what it is. Petty antipathy toward England!
312

vimto,

28/09/2008 13:28:02
380. Work it out for yourself!
313

vimto,

28/09/2008 13:30:41
382. And yet half the nationalists earn their living courtesy of England.
314

brownlie,

28/09/2008 13:33:32
224 Publius 228 Pax

Would you extend the "beneficiary should pay" to hospitals?

How refreshing an idea that would be?
315

TWC,

Ayrshire 28/09/2008 13:34:56
I would prefer that Scottish Labour controlled Scotland Finances and moved to the left but I would rather have Independence than continue with New Labour or the Tories without Financial Control.
What we have found is that living off an allowance is not good for Scotland.
I would hope that all Scots were mature enough to debate in reasonable tones.
I have no problem with most of what SNP have proposed, they are what I would hope to hear from Scottish Labour. I remain hopeful that we will wake up.
316

TWC,

Ayrshire 28/09/2008 13:37:35
BTW I thought vimto was a wummin
317

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 13:39:08
vimto

All of Britian earns their living courtesy of everyone else in the union. Sure they could probably all go it alone, but why bother when the benefit as a united kingdom offers far more reward? England dont need to worry about going it alone, there is industry norht to south, east to west and 55 million people with a capital city that is one of the wealthiest on the planet. Not much would change for them, but life in Wales, N.Ireland and Scotland would be different and no more liberating. Things would probably be darn expensive, taxes would be double and employment would be harder to find. It may eventually all come right but the risk is so great it isnt worth taking the chance. Especially when the only reason for going it alone is based on some ancient and rather silly belief that Scotland MUST be seperated from the auld enemy.
318

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 13:46:22
And when the oil runs out, or now that we are entering the GREEN world and are moving rapidly toward new and healthier technologies, what does Scotland offer then as an independent nation?

Wake up and think a little. The marriage between the four members in our union is a long one. Hard times will fall on all of us within this set up, but thankfully we will find support from the others at these times and vice versa.
The union has only been questioned since the discovery of oil in the north sea, something only made possible using British technology and money to begin with. It seems almost sickening that Scotland should now be pushing for independence based on this recent find. How shallow and short sighted the oil clan have become. Shame on them! But you reap what you sow, and if Scotland sows the independence seed she must live with it and forget looking for help in the future.
319

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 13:50:16
Salem

You are 100% correct! I have been asking for a referendum on the issue for ages.

I WISH Scotland could have a referendum tomorrow and the people could speak once and for all.

But I ask you this. If the people of Scotland voted against independence, would the SNP give up the war cry for freedom?
I very much doubt they would respect the will of the people! What do you think?
320

Publius,

Girvan 28/09/2008 13:53:47
#387 brownlie

I've already replied to this question. See my #293.

I don't see what hospitals have to with subsidised bridges for commuters from Fife to Edinburgh.
321

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 13:55:18
394 sm753#

The point is that it is not irellivant as it quite clearly demonstrates that Scotland would have been a vastly more prosperous country had we not been part of the union for the past 30 years.

That is irrelevant to you only because you are a unionist and to cite that Scotland would in any way have benefitted being outwith the union is just too much for you to contemplate, even though you as well as everyone else if sully aware as to the answer.

Scotland has no oil fund because of the union. Norway was not part of ANY union, it's assets are protected and have been invetsred for the good of the country which is now the third richest in Europe.

This is not an irrelevance, it shown that the union has continued to the detriment of YOUR country, a country that still every day you are prepared to commit to a union that will continue to do exactly the same time and time again as long as you support it.

You won't find poverty like that of Glasgow in Norway, perhaps they too are an irrelevance?
322

European Scot,

28/09/2008 14:01:19
382 Media 1

" The nationalist approach to independence is simply that it needs to be done. If that is the case then why doesnt California just leave the United States and go solo?"

Current position

California is a State of America, as viewed by the rest of the World.
Scotland is a 'region' of the 'UK', as viewed by the rest of the World.
The above might also help to explain why some Unionists confuse States with Nations.

Post Independence

Scotland, a Country, and a Nation, representing itself at all levels like any other in the Free World, and as it will be viewed by the rest of that World.

"There is absolutely no logical reason why Scotland should leave the partnership"

Of course Media 1, anything you say.
323

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:03:38
398 Nevsky
You still talk about Norway's oil fund but I still cannot find a reply from you which deals with the other part of the situation regarding Norway. Would people in Scotland have been willing or are they willing to pay similar levels of taxation to those which apply in Norway thus allowing revenue to be put ionto an oil fund. You cannot make a comparison with another country by just looking at one aspect - you have to consider the whole position.

Recent research from CPPR at Glasgow has shown that oil and gas revenues over the last 5 years would not even have met current expenditure so where would the money for the oil fund have come from?
324

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 14:03:46
Nevsky

So what you are saying is the partnership must only be viewed for its benefits in the last 30 years, thus failing to acknowledge the benefits for the 150 years prior and the probable needs that will stem in the next 100 years after the oil is gone?

That is a good way of looking at it. Get married, but only acknowledge your partner when times are good...

Can you see how shortsighted and utterly pathetic that approach to life is?
325

GM,

28/09/2008 14:07:46
I see Kimba is back telling everyone they are bilious racist cretins...

lol

How many usernames has the old dear been through now?
326

Chum of Boris,

Henley of Thames 28/09/2008 14:12:37
402 GM

Some of you Jocks have no sense of humour. I use about a dozen different names on the Scotman's board. I've used three names today already. Chum of Boris is my fourth.
327

Chum of Boris,

Henley on Thames 28/09/2008 14:14:01
Some of my chums in the city have Qataris as clients. I'd be glad to arrange an introduction for a moderate fee.
328

suchaparcelofrogues,

28/09/2008 14:15:16
388

What a phuqing tool its no as if the whole thing isnae up there for all to see.

We are seeing whole new depths to trolling today.

329

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:16:08
401

Name one benefit in the last 300 150 or 30 years?
330

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:18:04
405 parcel
Which aspects of the contradictory information you have given are "there for all to see"
331

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:22:18
407

Well Ugly all of it. not some of it or a little of it or even a lot of it but all of it.
Did you buy yer degree?
332

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:24:43
406 parcel
So many posts have complained about lack of infrastructure in Scotland. What about this :
Then the Tay Road Bridge was completed in 1966, Scotland had 4 of the 10 longest bridges in the world.

Also, do a comparison for yourself and work out the number of miles of motorway per head, the number of miles of road per head, the number of miles of railway per head, the number of schools per head, the number of hospitals per head etc etc.

If you do that you will find that :
1 Scotland has, on all these counts, a higher level per head than England
2 The figures for Scotland are amongst the highest in the world.

Of course you will probably just accuse me of lying again so check the details for yourself. That's all that is required.
333

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 14:25:34
Media#

You post the weakest drivel of any unionist here.

I do not view the union in the way you do and it is as simple as that.

I believe Scotland should do what is best for the country and that the interests of Scots are not nor have they ever been looked after by Westminster, in a foreign city in a foreign country.

The union is a false construct that people like you have bought into wholeheartedly. Scotland's natural state is free and independent, like every other country in the world.

The union is not a marriage so even to talk of it in such terms is a joke. Scotland has been ruthlessly exploited by a foreign parliament with tokenism as the only reward for being compliant.

Oil is just one instance.


334

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:26:38
408 parcel
Indeed it is there for all to see. What I should have asked is which parts of your contradictory information should we accept and which part should we reject.
335

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:28:26
409

So how does this equate to a union benefit?
Do countries have to be within a political union in order to build bridges roads and hospitals then?

Can you only find roads bridges and hospitals within countries affiliated to unions?

Is this really all you have to present as a union benefit over a 300 year period and you wonder why we want independence?
336

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:29:25
411

Well in my opinion you should accept all of it I believe it to be true.
337

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:30:33
410 Nevsky
You make blanket assertions with no back up. you talk about "free and independent like every country in the world"

How is this? The world is full of countries which have been formed by the joining in a Union/Federation of smaller countries. This applies to Germany, Italy Greece, France, USA and many more.
338

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 14:32:14
413#

Without the union Scotland would have had no bridges or hospitals, certainly no roads of course.

George#

Scotland shoud stay in the union and as proof of that in 1966 it had 4 big bridges?
339

IainGlasgow,

28/09/2008 14:32:51
"Labour last night warned the plan could lead to Scottish assets falling into the hands of foreign owners, who stood to make huge profits out of any investment."

Foreign owners as opposed to good Scottish companies like Iberdrola?
340

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:34:04
414

Which countries formed a union to become Germany? Italy? Greece? France? and the USA?
341

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:34:46
412 parcel
You asked for some benefits and I gave you some. Are bridges, roads railways etc not benefits. Who paid for them? Is an independent Scotland going to knock all the bridges down and dig up all the roads. They surely must if they are not benfits - what would be the point in keeping them.
342

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 14:35:13
suchaparcelofrogues

You not only insult the intelligence of all the people on this forum with such a question, but worse, you insult your own intelligence with such imprudent utterances.

Independence is not necessary in Scotland! It will not deliver better economic growth, it will not deliver a more liberating society, it will not take Edinburgh from the 5th largest European financial hub to the 3rd or even the 4th. It will not deliver more jobs and will not present a better standard of living for all Scots.

And when it comes to protecting our borders, we will be required to invest billions in a new army, navy and air force. It will not stop there!

I could understand the cry for independence if Scotland was oppressed, subjagated and exploited by an enemy who removed our civil liberties and freedoms, but that is not the case. Scotland is a free society, a wealhty society, a relatively safe society and people have work and a good life.

So any call for independence can only stem from antipathy toward England, because there is no suffering or any other reason to feel so strongly about this topic.
343

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 14:37:59
420#

Surprised that Britian ever called it a day with Rome..they built heaps of bridges.
344

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:38:26
418

Yes I did and no you didnt and you have 300 years to play with and an honours in maths.
You sad sad sad little troll.

The roads and bridges are not union benefits they are structural benefits which benefit nations in and out of unions you silly little phuq wit.
345

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:39:17
417 parcel
Germany was formed in 1870/1871 from a group of smaller countries Saxony, Bavaria, Prussia etc.

Italy was formed in a similar way at a similar time. Up till thhen it had consisted of many small countries (Lombardy, Sicily etc) with a large city.

Crete was independent but formed a Union withy greece in 1913.

Corsica formed a Union with France.

Texas was independent but joined the USA in the 18thy C as did California.

There are loads of examples.
346

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:40:29
419

You not only insult the intelligence of all the people on this forum

Thats a bald face lie there is no evidence of intelligence in anybody I have insulted today.
347

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:42:20
419

Independence is not necessary in Scotland! It will not deliver better economic growth, it will not deliver a more liberating society, it will not take Edinburgh from the 5th largest European financial hub to the 3rd or even the 4th. It will not deliver more jobs and will not present a better standard of living for all Sc

Fine you have expressed your personal opinion it has been noted given the credence it deserves and now we will ignore it.
unless of course you care to back it all up with a shred of evidence in order to make it all factual??
348

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 14:42:23
415 Nevsky
You are making false extrapolations from the points I made to try and make it look as though I said something else.

I did not, nor did I imply either of the comments you have assigned to me. I merely stated the situation as it is - any extrapolation from that is your conjecture - not mine.
349

Alan B,

28/09/2008 14:43:10
#Ugly George

You talk of income tax in Norway being 28%. While I am not aware of the details of the Norwegian tax system remember tax on income here is over 30% (NI is not an insurance in any meaningful way and just another secondary income tax). Both Thatcher cut income tax and increased National Insurance (which is now 11/12%).

The cut to 31/32% tax on income in the UK was also funded by cutting the starting 10% band which allowed income tax to be cut in the last budget by 2%. Meaning the previous tax rate was effectively 33/34%.

Also when comparing income tax rates between the 2 countries you have to look at allowance levels. This government have kept the income tax allowance low in order to fund cutting the headline tax rate.

As such you cannot simply view the headline tax rate of one country and compare it to another with out taking these things into account.


350

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 14:43:56
420 Uncle Tom

see post 426
351

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 14:44:57
Nevsky

You said "The union is a false construct that people like you have bought into wholeheartedly"

I beg to differ, there was nothing false in Britains defending itself against Hitler. There is nothing false about being British and how dare anyone suggest otherwide.

You say - "Scotland's natural state is free and independent, like every other country in the world" I agree with you, but unlike other nations in the world, we are part of a beneficial union that serves us better than independence would. Price Waterhous and Coopers Lybrand were also free and independent, but they formed to join pricewaterhousecoopers because it made sense to do. You see, sometimes partnerships are better, hence why the 52 states in America make a far more formidable force than the independent nations in Europe.

You cannot win this argument, SCOTLANDS warcry for freedom is not based on any sound economic or socially beneficial necessity. It is all personal and historical.

The union is not a marriage so even to talk of it in such terms is a joke. Scotland has been ruthlessly exploited by a foreign parliament with tokenism as the only reward for being compliant.
352

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 14:46:11
423 George#


Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ireland..bettre examples of independenct countries that Crete and Texas i feel.
353

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 14:47:28
Superogue

Evidence! Scotland IS wealthy, Edinburgh IS the 5th largest economic hub in Europe, Scottish people DO enjoy good quality of life - that is the evidence!

What you are saying is that independence will forever deliver even more than this...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA - AYE RIGHT!
354

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:49:05
423

Ugly and stupid is no way to go through life Georgie boy Bavaria and Saxony were and still are states not countries Prussia used to be a kingdom and is in fact a central state of the now FEDERATION OF STATES GERMANY.
Scotland is NOT A STATE it is a nation just the same as the FEDERATION OF GERMANY AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA I dont even want to know what you plan to dig up for France.
355

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:50:43
427

In fact its 50% for higher wage earners. I think we are arguing with an imbecile.
356

Alan B,

28/09/2008 14:51:25
#Media 1

"It will not deliver better economic growth"

Given that our economic growth has been poor over the last 30yrs. Less than 2% on avg. And 2.2% over the last decade, trailing the uk with 2.8% growth who in turn has trailed the group of smaller european countries which have avg growth of 3.6%.

That means that you think we will inevitably have poor growth in the uk and poor growth outside. Dammed if we do and dammed if we do not. As such you view Scotland through the eyes of inevitable failure.

Seriously how long and how many failure economically does Scotland have to endure before we should say lets try something different.

The way I see it. In the late 80s the prevailing economic view in Scotland was we needed to attach ourselves to England as we were to small to suceed. What has happened over the last 20yrs is the small northern western european countries have done far better than the big ones. ie the economic basis for us remaining within the uk was wrong. What frustrates me is given that was wrong and identifiably so, is that we cannot admit collectively that we got it wrong. Labour coming out and admitting it got it wrong and allow scotland to try to model herself on the successful economies.
357

Media 1,

Cape Town 28/09/2008 14:53:30
hahahahaha - Scotland has been exploited they say! lmfao

hahahahaha - yeah I see the Scottish people suffering on the news everyday. CNN brings us daily stories about the plight of the Scots at the hands of the shockingly dictator like English.

How long will this terrible and disgusting oppression continue. How long until Scottish people are permitted to work, use the public transport systems and eat?

hahahaha! Oh you gotta laugh at these people eh.
358

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 14:54:29
Alan B
I'v just looked up onfo on Norway again. They also have National Insurance (7.8% + 3% pension insurance)
I think they also have to pay medical insurance though I am not entirely certain.

The threshold at which they start to pay tax is very low - much lower than here with the result that someone earning only 18000 euros pa pays about 26/27% of it in tax.

I don't think that you will find a way of concluding that rates of taxation in Norway are not very much higher than here they most certainly are as they appear to follow the so called "Scandanavian Model" in this respect.

That is why I am asking for those who talk about Norway's oil fund to look at the whole picture not just the oil fund.
359

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 14:54:44
432

So where is the evidence that says it wont?
Scotlands wealth goes to the Westminster treasury phuqwit we get a little bit back with the Barnett formula phuqwit.
So where is the benefit of being wealthy phuqwit when we have to hand over the lot less the barnet formula to somebody else?

360

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 14:55:53
Alan B

But Scotland is not in an economically dire position ,thus there is no need to try anything different.

Scotland is not under any threat, the people are not in danger, the employment figures are good and the quality of life is better than it has ever been.

So I dont get the need for change.
361

Alan B,

28/09/2008 14:56:15
#Media 1

"Scottish people DO enjoy good quality of life "

Many do. But collectively if we had grown faster economically then we would have a far higher quality of life in monetary terms.

Specifically that would mean-
-more higher paid jobs (and thus our graduates not having to abandon scotland for london etc)
-would have a healthier nation. Much of the ill health is down to poverty and directly associated to the economy. Even diet tends to be linked to job etc.
362

Ugly George,

28/09/2008 14:56:56
433 parcel
Tell me what is the effective differnce between an independent state and an independent country and an independent nation
363

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 14:59:07
Media#

Scotland inependence is absolutely based on financial arguments. Norway and Ireland are two examples so you are talking absolute, really absolute rubbish.

Scottish soldiers dying in Iraq and Afgahnistan is a real consequence of the union but are they better dying because they are in a union? I think not Media!!!!

The union has changed dramatically over the past 20 years and i sincerely believe that the interests of Scotland are not being served by Westminster, how can they be? How can London possibly run Scotland better than Scotland....are you bloody serious?

We are now enetering a situation where perhaps five Scottish Conservatibve MPs will represent 5.5 million people in a right-wing party based in London and you think Scotland will be served equally well?

Wake up Media, pull your breeks up and have a bit of dignity.
364

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 15:00:10
The problem is that the nationalists see Scotland giving to the UK, but they chose to foget that everyone else in the partnership does the same..

It is called a partbership because all the parties contribute to the overall kitty for the benefit of all concerned. At different stages, one of the members will become stronger than the others but in the long run it will level itself out.

Please take off the blinkers and leave the hatred behind.
365

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 15:02:24
444

So what was wrong with the UKs partnership with South Africa then?
366

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 15:03:22
Nevsky

Take off the blinkers, your arguements are short on substance and rich on fantasy!
367

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 15:04:50
444

"At different stages, one of the members will become stronger than the others but in the long run it will level itself out."

There is only ever going to be one member perpetually stronger than the others you dumb f*k.


Do you even know what the Barnett formula is?
368

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:05:43
#Ugly George

I am not necessarily disagreeing. that is why i said that I do not know the Norwegian tax system in enough detail to make any serious comment.

Norway however have moved away some what from the old Scandanavian model. For instance corporation taxes were less than the uk. (28%). The UK just lowered from 30% to 28% this year.

Also if you look at your own figures. 28%+7.8% = 36% taxes on income compared to our own of 22%+11/12% = 33/34% (until the recent 10% debacle which took it down by 2%) they are quite similar.

The uk has now the biggest deficit in the western world (according to Cameron this morning). So it is more than just the tax rate but you have to take the deficit into account.

369

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 15:06:12
#445 Superparcelofrogues

It was the same as the one with India! Racially motivated.
Scotland is a different case entirely!

And please remember, The British empire included Scotland and ALL Scots....It still does.

The English, The Welsh, The Scots and The Irish share a truly fantastic partnership based on respect, understanding and integrity.
370

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 15:08:57
449

Well that confirms you were on the same 6 month course as rufus/SM troll no doubt you even used the same PC in fact you are still using the same PC.
What a way for a grown man to spend his time.
371

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:09:30
#440 Media 1

"Scotland is not in an economically dire position "

I do not think anyone is saying Scotland is in a dire position. What we are saying is Scotland has been underperformed economically by the rest of the uk and most small western northern european countries.

That relates directly to our long term standard of living.

If scotland continues to under perform over a prolonged period of time like we have done for the last 30yrs or more then we will become more and more dependent on England. Oil will not last forever and when it has gone our window of opportunity to transform ourselves will be much reduced.
372

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 15:11:20
Alan b
Can't agreet aht UK and Norway Income Taxes are similaR
UK - 20% basic rate + 11.5% NI + Pension = 31.5%
Norway - 28% basic rate + 10.8% NI + Pension = 38.8%
373

Nevsky,

Moscow 28/09/2008 15:12:15
Media 1#

Think you will find the Irish do not share your golden view of the Union and they are richer for leaving, fiscally and culturally Why not go to the Irish Times and ask them to re-join and see what response you will get.

374

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:12:29
sorry should have been:

What we are saying is Scotland has underperformed economically. Being outperformed by the rest of the uk and most/many small western northern european countries.
375

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:12:31
sorry should have been:

What we are saying is Scotland has underperformed economically. Being outperformed by the rest of the uk and most/many small western northern european countries.
376

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:12:33
sorry should have been:

What we are saying is Scotland has underperformed economically. Being outperformed by the rest of the uk and most/many small western northern european countries.
377

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 15:12:39
Superparcelofrogues

You must attempt to reduce the crassness of your responses. Try and embrace others as opposed to shunning them with your pro nationalist and anti anything else attitude.

If you are attempting to suggest that England receives more than the rest of the founding members, you need to pull yourself toward yourself.

378

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 15:12:41
423

No they phuqing werent. They were states not nations.
379

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 28/09/2008 15:15:51
458

Phuq off troll your not worthy of respect or consideration. Come on here and debate argue or raise a genuine point and nobody will abuse you
Dont come on here with mulitple accounts and lie bullsh*t sh*t stir and expect to be treated with curtesy.
I doubt you even give a sh*t but all that wasnt for your benefit anyway.
380

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:16:32
#Ugly George

I would not include pensions are effectively the uk pensions are private.

As such you have to contribute your own or if you have a decent company pension which you oftern have to make a contribution.

Do they also have the 10% roughly employer NI like we do that effectively takes tax on income up to over 40%. I am sure they will have something.

Anyway getting away from my original point was that you cannot just look at a headline income tax in isolation.



381

Alan B,

28/09/2008 15:31:14
For a glance at the performance of the Norwegian economy.

Including oil revenues which the uk also does. Norway are running a surplus. The UK is running a huge deficit.

#UG how high would income tax have to be raised in the UK to cover our deficit this yr. Given that it is about 3/4billion for 1p and the deficit is estimated to be nearly 100billion. You get my drift.



"The forecast for growth in Mainland-GDP is now 3.2% in 2008. Employment growth is estimated at 2.4% in 2008 and the unemployment rate is expected to flatten out at 2.4%."

http://www.tax-news.com/archive/story/Norway_Unveils_2008_Budget_xxxx31074.html

They are expecting 3.2% this yr we are expecting a recession. Our avg is 2.2% over the last decade.

"The government further observed that in general, growth in the Norwegian mainland economy has been strong for the past four years, with an annual GDP growth of close to 5%. "
382

Independent Mind,

Oxford, Glasgow, Buckie 28/09/2008 15:39:28
As the dust settles on this current financial crisis, it will quickly become apparent that there are 2 groups of countries in the world:

Those with resources, whether in be oil, gas, gold, manufacturing capabilities etc.

And those that without.

In the light of the huge problems that have arisen from the levels of debt that governments took on over the last 20 years (something some of the posters mock the SNP for proposing, despite it being what EVERY Western country does) I was initially dubious about this.

But having thought about it though it does make sense for both parties involved.

Scotland has a great potential as a provider of resources, certain products and services to the world, whether that be renewable energy, oil, education, whisky, tourism etc. The problem is we don't have the infrastructure to export it. A loan from abroad to cover this, if spent wisely, would open up our resources and allow us to move forward as one of those (few) countries in the Western world with actual worth. The loan could then be paid off over a period of time as our economy grows.

From the investors point of view it looks a very safe investment on one condition... the investment is made in EUROS! Salmond must convince them that independence will happen and that within a very short period of time we would move to the Euro. Otherwise they would have to be stupid to invest in Sterling. If that stipulation is met then it would be a very sound investment due to our assets as a nation.

It would be great to hear some real, well thought out arguments for and against...
383

Ken Doig,

Bass Lake, California 28/09/2008 15:43:12
My wife Linda says Scotland looks just fine, and she can drive your roads. I would add repaving the country with Arab money will spread an oil slick you will never clean up. We will join you for The Gathering 2009. I hope we are not delayed by signs reading ??????, ??????? (Detour).
PS Please, no comments that we don't have to commute between the hedgerows that will be removed.
384

Ken Doig,

Bass Lake, California 28/09/2008 15:45:37
PSS to my last comment. The ?????? were the Arabic spelling which the Scotsman softwaret did not recognize. It's time to reprogram.
385

Independent Mind,

Oxford, Glasgow, Buckie 28/09/2008 16:04:28
468 Uncle Tom

Is that a serious retort?? Sorry, I can't tell but I will answer as if it is...

We (Nats) are constantly asked to justify why Scotland can go it alone and what we have to give to the world. Well we have oil for a start, which although it may or may not be running out has a good 25 years left. In that time we can create an infrastructure to become a world leader in clean, renewable energy production. No?

A question I hear far less often is what does England give to our partnership? The answer over the last 20 years has been London and the vast financial services industry... but that has been shown to be worth... NOTHING. So what does England give to our Union? ie What are the reasons for staying IN the Union?

Your answer appears to be that the world "fears" England?? I'm sorry but for me that is no reason to be linked with another country.

Apologies for diverting the thread.

So like I said, any intelligent reasons for or against the idea of loaning money to create Scotland's infrastructure of the future?
386

subrosa,

28/09/2008 16:14:24
# 440: Scotland is not under any threat, the people are not in danger, the employment figures are good and the quality of life is better than it has ever been.

People not in any danger? Won't be long before thousands of pensioners are once their little bit of savings have gone on paying gas and electricity bills. Don't say that pension credit is there either because so many pensioners are just a couple of £s above it.

I expected my quality of life as a pensioner would be good in Scotland, better than Germany or Italy. It's not the case. My pension has diminished so much because of Gordon Brown and his raids that I receive less than 50% of what I paid for many years. Because my endowment policies lost me over £15000 I still have a mortgage to pay.

Don't tell me I've never had it so good because you're a liar.

387

Independent Mind,

Oxford, Glasgow, Buckie 28/09/2008 16:16:41
468 Uncle Tom

Just a quick point.

I find your allusion that an "Independent Mind" is a "Dangerous Mind" very disturbing. That implies you would rather be under a totalitarian regime where we are not allowed to think for ourselves??
388

insidersituation,

Dubai 28/09/2008 16:53:05
This is a farce. Scotland borrowing from the Middle East is no different from PFI or the budget relationship with Westminster.

As a Scottish expat lving in the UAE for many investment from Arabs is only to make a profit and a substantial one at that. Islamic funding does not allow interest to service charges are paid which tends to be at a higher rate than market interest rates.

As the old saying goes if it aint broke dont fix it. The Union of Great Britian and Northern Ireland is not broken so lets be sensible and stop Alex Salmond and other non objective politicians messing with a system that works.

389

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 16:58:03
SM753 your are spot on.

Spanners/Lara/Jackie is a complete and utter idiot mith multiple ids as you say.

He has the temerity to accuse me of having multiple signons almost on a daily basis (which incidently I don't).

Why he wants to post under multiple ids escapes me. Maybe he enjoys talking to himself.

The guy/lady/hemaphrodite/tranny (delete as appropriate) obviously has issues that need addressed away from this forum. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
390

brownlie,

28/09/2008 17:01:32
Would who-ever is posting under my name please stop. There was a posting using my moniker earlier today when I was at the football. Checking back I find that this has been going on, on occasions, all week.

How is this done? What is that all about and what does this person hope to achieve?

If I want to post my usual pro-unionist nonsense I do not need any help to do so.

There are millions of monikers you can adopt - please do so.
391

JG,

Fife 28/09/2008 17:03:49
Is this another of Salmonds 'visions'? Heaven preserve us from people with vivid imaginations and no common sense!
392

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 17:06:13
Brownlie, which posting was the one from the imposter?

I will have a look.
393

noswod,

Honestus 28/09/2008 17:06:25
Why doesne oor Eckeey gang o'er to see that nice Mr Putin and ask for some cash. He can already put the lights oot, why not left him be able to put the trains, bridges, ports, schools and hospitals oot as weel. I dinny ken its a guid idea tae depend on foreigners fer infrastructural capital investment as they have a'ways proved totally unreliable and at best my friends at Lehman Bros thay charge twice as much as HBOS . Wit we should do is keep maxinising oor take from the United Knigdom budget after aw we hae got it above £1615 mair than the southern britions Ecckys aim should be tae git that up tae £2,500 mair than them doon soooth weel be able tae build bridges oor the North Sea wi that cash.
394

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 17:10:17
Hey Noswod, This is the Scotsman forum, not the Swahili Times website.
395

brownlie,

28/09/2008 17:13:08
479 Rufus

It's at 387 - it's identical to my moniker i.e. there's no commas or any other punctuation.

396

Western Gael,

28/09/2008 17:14:43
When the Chancellor is already bandying about the need to borrow £100B, what middle eastern potentate in his right mind would lend Scotland's (last I heard, it was still part of the UK) government a penny, based solely on a promise to pay? Salmond's daft.
397

Eric D,

Alba 28/09/2008 17:18:26
"Scotland on Sunday can reveal that Salmond has personally requested that the Islamic Finance Council – a Scottish-based body which represents Islamic financial interests – to explore "the possibility of using Islamic financing structures to address the infrastructure needs of Scotland". - This will be the demise of Salmond, even natural Nats like myself are repulsed by moves such as this. Jack MacConnel seems a safe and trustworthy FT compared this guy. As for the Islamic Finance council ; the next UK Government will close it down. A new damascene has occured; multi-culturalism out, integration in and Salamond is years behind the curve on this.
398

brownlie,

28/09/2008 17:20:43
486 Uncle Tom

Is that 500 the miles you're prepared to walk?
399

Rufus T. Firefly,

28/09/2008 17:22:23
Brownlie, that has me stumped.

I have no idea how they have managed that.

It looks identical.
400

brownlie,

28/09/2008 17:23:33
488 Rufus

Looks as if I'll have to use my maiden name!!!
401

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling. aka Highland Mighty, Ayrshire Scot, Engl 28/09/2008 17:26:18
Do some of the posters not realise that so called Scottish Oil will run out shortly. There is no point in pretending that it will contribute to repaying loans from Quatar or anywhere else. It is time the Scottish Executive realise that they will have to be self financing in future, and that the best way forward is commercial and economic partnership with England. Forget independence. It's doomed !!
402

,

28/09/2008 17:52:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
403

Hubert Farnsworth,

28/09/2008 18:46:51
This is crazy, I signed in as Duncan In Edinburgh.

and I now have a sign in box that says - Hubert Farnsworth.

the welcome e-mail address is unchanged.
404

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 28/09/2008 18:51:43
You couldn't make this up, could you? Alex the Great off to beg in the Middle East. Heavens above. What titbit can he offer them -a golf resort on the north east coast?
405

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 28/09/2008 19:08:50
Labour have bankrupted the state by employing hundreds of thousands of civil servants who do nothing but suck up cash. When it hits the fans they do not sack these parasites but keep them on to keep the unions sweet and they cut funding to frontline services instead.

Very soon we will have a the largest civil service in the world which achieves nothing.

Britain raises around £800 Billion in tax every year - only about 10% of that ever sees frontline services - the rest is eaten by administration and ''support''.

We have plenty of money to have one of the best infrastructures in the world .... it is just being hopelessly, and in my view, criminally, mismanaged.

Some labour (and Lib dem) politicians and councillors should be going to jail for their neglect ... now Mr Salmond is having to sort it all out for them ....

Imagine us having to go out with our begging bowl to the Arabs ... disgraceful.
406

Texasloon,

Austin, TX 28/09/2008 19:10:58
When I was in Sydney they had a tunnel under the harbour that was built for free by a Japanese company. The catch was that the Japanese company got all the toll revenue for 25 or 30 years, forget which. At that point it returned back to Sydney City Council control, free and clear. Why can't Scotland look at similar schemes, it would cost them nothing and they would eventually get ownership of it.
407

Kiltie74,

Fife 28/09/2008 19:12:35
HE'S FINALLY LOST HIS MIND!

Salmond is not just 'selling the family silver' he is so desperate to hold onto power he is condeming future generation of Scots to middle east strangulation :-(

In any other country such a nutter would face a military coup!
408

The Strategist,

28/09/2008 19:18:20
#476

According to an SNP Cllr friend who know's Salmond well this bit of the report is utter nonsense.
409

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 19:22:18
530 odd posts on this issue as well as the topic of independence tells you that people feel passionately about these difficult questions.

I wonder what it is that makes me and many millions embrace the union, whilst others are completely opposed to it? There are many cheap responses to such a question, but I wonder what the actual truth would be?

I have carried out a small study of my own in relation to the nationalist vs unionist dilema and I can safely say that nationalists are more prone to feelings of enmity when it comes to England.

I am a unionist, but I am also a passionate Scotsman who believes that my country of birth is the most pristine and beautiful on the planet. My city, Edinburgh, is unmatched when it comes to city centre splendour. Scotland is a famous little nation, people the world over love us for our humour and our bravery and we are well liked. But within our little country and within the hearts of our people at home and around the world, one is either a unionst or a nationalist.

I love the fact that I can call myself British and I warm to those who can do the same, regardless of their Welsh, Irish, English or Scottish background. In SA and in AUS the British people stick together because we are ONE people. Our culture is almost identical, we watch the same TV, like the same things and eat the same food. I cannot say the same about Germans or Argentinians, which is why I could NEVER support Germany or Argentina against England. I will always support England unless they are playing Scotland because to me they are British just as I am. But if they lose I dont feel saddened. When Scotland loses it hurts!
But to the nationalist, such support would be impossible. To the nationalist, an England loss is better than a Scottish victory and I cannot help but think that this sort of sentiment is the reason that nationalists crave independence.
It doesnt really have anything to do with better economics or a better way of life. Independence is
410

Media 1,

28/09/2008 19:24:40
essentially two fingers up to the English!
411

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 19:24:43
#514
Kiltie74

You have no family silver left to sell and only pocket money for day to day expenditure on deep fried Mars bars and Buckfast.

Salmond can go to the Arabs if he likes, for he will not be getting any handouts from us.
412

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 19:30:19
#517
Media 1

Look Matey!

You are a Jock...a Sweaty Sock you have as much chance of becoming an Englishman as Gunga Din has.

Who, by the way...is a much better man than you could ever hope to be.

Away with you! You Pikey toe-rag.
413

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 19:34:55
Saxon Yolk

You are 100% correct, I am a Scot and will never be English. Thankfully I dont wish to be English, I only wish to be British and proud of my Scottish heritage.
414

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 19:38:33
Slice pimple

Welsh is a good choice!
415

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 19:42:44
I am happy to be British -
416

Caitlin Thenew,

Traprain 28/09/2008 19:46:31
#5.
It seems a proposal to promote foreign suzerainty...what's happened to the SNP ideal of an independent Scotland? Up for auction?

Agree that heads need examining....
417

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 19:50:18
#521
Media 1

You may pretend to be British if you wish... but few will believe you when you open your mouth and speak in that incomprehensible Germanesque gibberish.
418

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 19:52:27
#528
Caitlin Thenew

Scotland is English.

Always has been.

Get used to it.
419

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 19:53:27
Saxon

But that is the beauty about it. It doesnt matter what anyone else thinks, it only matters that I am happy being British!
I wonder if there is legal course for me to follow in relation to my Britishness being placed at risk by the SNP?
Can I take them to court do you think?
420

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 20:03:41
Media 1,
cape town

We could use a man like you.

If you work for us, we can guarantee your Britishness for ever.

If the Nats try steal Scotland from us...we need some Partitionists to limit the damage.
421

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 20:05:42
520

Carrot Cruncher..ha ha ha!

That is a bit rich coming from a ginger-topped Pikey.
422

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 20:12:22
536 Buzz lightyears behind

It is not too late to replace the rest of you with sheep.

It is not as if you serve any useful purpose.
423

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 20:13:37
A law suit against the SNP for placing my British status at risk may be the way to go...
424

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 20:13:56
537

Ba'ah Ba'ah Ba'ah!
425

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 20:15:29
539
Media 1

Not at much risk really.

You Sweaties will never be able to look after yourselves.
426

Media 1,

cape town 28/09/2008 20:25:41
Saxon Yolk

The fact that Salmond is shouting for independence is enough for me to seek legal counsel.
Surley the most obvious thing would be for him to run the country without speaking about independence. I can accept him shouting for a referendum!
But that is not what is happening.
427

brownlie,

28/09/2008 20:26:32
When I heard that the Labour party intended to invade sites such as this with "party activists" to put postings favourable to the union across I thought that they would use individuals with a modicum of intelligence.
428

Saxon Yolk,

28/09/2008 20:30:33