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Salmond sets out demands for oil revenues to Brown



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Published Date: 02 June 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
ALEX Salmond has taken the first formal move to try to wrest control of at least some of the UK's oil revenues from the UK Treasury.
The First Minister has written to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, asking for a share of the estimated £4 billion to £5 billion in extra income which the UK government is due to make in tax from the rapidly escalating price of oil.

Mr Salmond has also called for the creation of a Scottish oil fund, putting money aside for the time when the oil runs out.

But Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, made it clear yesterday he has no intention of dividing the extra oil tax revenue from the rest of government income, stating that some tax increases were going up while others were going down and the whole lot had to be seen as one package.

In his letter, Mr Salmond said: "The UK government needs to concede the principle and the justice of Scotland having direct access to a share of the tax receipts from our own oil and gas resources so that we can start to build a capital fund to power forward the Scottish economy."





The full article contains 204 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 June 2008 9:41 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: North Sea Oil & Gas
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/06/2008 23:31:35

Apart from killing off the objectionable myth that England subsidises Scotland, Alex Salmond is talking a lot of horse sense here.

Putting some money away for a rainy day is what Gordon Brown should have been doing for over a decade. Instead Lord Ditheringham of Kirkcaldy has squandered billions of Scottish oil receipts, AND sold off the UK gold reserves at bottom dollar.

2

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 00:11:30
1. Anyone who has examined past accounts have seen that Scotland's high public spending budgets far outweigh tax receipts, oil included.

Only now that oil prices are so high is Scotland actually breaking even.

Salmond has had full access to public accounts for a year now and yet he has not managed to prove otherwise.

Can you, Angus Ogg? Do you have access to accounts that Salmond has missed?
3

Hmm ...,

02/06/2008 00:27:49
... sounds as though you would like us to think that you have seen them, Highland! Put up or shut up - give us details of this spending and tax receipts, then!
4

blueguru,

US 02/06/2008 00:56:07
How can a tax increase go down?
5

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 00:57:42
#2
You unwittingly bring up a matter that requires immediate attention: The oversized public sector. It is something which is known to be inefficient and is in need of serious reform, there are a lot of departments and layers of government which could be abolished/ slimmed down in order to bring Scotland's public sectors size into line with the rest of the UK.
6

,

02/06/2008 00:57:55
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7

,

02/06/2008 00:57:55
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8

truthsleuth,

02/06/2008 00:58:03
Mr Salmond is treading on dangerous ground he should take care when biting the hand that feeds him.

He hopes no doubt that Gordon the Gopher will not wish to raise this can of worms and repeatedly use it to distract the scottish populace when he feels threatened as he once did with devolution/independence.

Take care If Gordon is given the time to lick his wounds he will come looking for a victim.
9

,

02/06/2008 00:58:18
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10

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 00:59:47
4
Great Scott!
11

Sanny,

02/06/2008 01:01:37
#2 Highland Ejit:
Try reading Naill Aslens “The Great Deception”. He references all the figures he uses and they are in the main Government figures. Read and learn!!
12

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:02:14
3. They are on the net, look them up for yourself.

And notice how no-one in Holyrood has claimed these published accounts are wrong.

Yes, there have been periods when Scotland has paid more in tax than it has spent, but the last was during the early 80s.

Now, break the nationalist habit of making endless anti-UK/anti-English claims and then refusing to prove them, by actually showing how Scotland has always subsidised the trillion-pound-plus economy that is the rest of the UK.
13

,

02/06/2008 01:03:11
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14

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:08:27
17. 'The Great Deception' is a superbly ironic title!

This is the amateur blog that claims that Scotland is paying for the entire Trident programme citing that Scotland should only be paying 3.5% of the UK defence budget instead of the per capita 9%!

It is a (seriously!) flawed work which the author himself actually admits.
15

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:10:06
17. And see again how the nationalists resort to insults in a pathetic attmept to cover up their lies.
16

Castaway,

02/06/2008 01:10:53
#5 etc.Traquir - All interesting to read, Norway, has used its "accidental inheritance" to set up a Petroleum Fund.
The fund was valued at $387.3 billion in March 2008, Norway's central bank reported.15/04/2008
Oil 'would make independent Scotland rich'
A study by leading accountants shows 'black gold' would generate a £4 billion budget surplus
The surplus would allow Alex Salmond to maintain existing levels of public spending, while cutting corporation tax from 28% to 12.5%, reducing income tax by 5p in the pound and still having £2 billion every year to invest in a Norwegian-style oil fund to safeguard Scotland against a future decline in North Sea oil revenue.

The study, based on Treasury oil revenue forecasts and official spending figures, has calculated that, without money from the taxation of oil and gas, an independent Scotland would have an underlying deficit of £7.8billion. But when £12.2billion of oil and gas revenues are included, Scotland would have a surplus of more than £4billion.

The findings are likely to be seized on by Salmond to claim in a referendum campaign that an independent Scotland would be one of the wealthiest nations in Europe.

The calculations, by leading accountancy firm Grant Thornton, are in stark contrast to a UK government report in 2006 that indicated that an independent Scotland would have a deficit of £6billion, even if oil and gas revenues were taken into account. However, the price of oil has more than doubled since 2005 to $120 (£61) a barrel, leading economists to conclude that Scotland “is sitting on a gold mine”.
The Sunday Times May 18, 2008


17

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:16:04
22. And what is the annual spending bonus from the interest on this $387bn?

(Now, remember that at least half the interest would have to be reinvested to allow for inflation.)
18

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 01:19:17
What I fail to understand is why the argument over the North Sea oil? It is clearly Scotland's to take out. England should not be allowed to get it or use it. It isn't theirs. It is like stealing to me.
And Traqur, I agree with you.
19

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 01:20:00
Traquir...sorry I mispelled your name.
20

Marga,

Fife 02/06/2008 01:20:45
Have people seen this article in yesterday's Guardian (and elsewhere)?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jun/01/oil.france?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

Is Scotland represented?

"In a surprise visit to the Oil & Gas UK conference in Aberdeen last week, Gordon Brown met senior executives from the consortium - which includes US heavyweight Chevron, Italy's ENI and Denmark's Dong Energy - and some of their rivals to try to broker a deal.

The two sides are represented on an industry task force set up by the government to work out how best to develop the estimated 4 billion barrels of oil and gas equivalent lying beneath deep water west of the Shetland Islands." etc.

21

Sanny,

02/06/2008 01:27:02
14 Traquir
Calculating the oil reserves is not a simple thing. Some oils is difficult to get at therefore expensive to extract and until recently was not economically viable. This said improving techniques and the increasing price is shifting the economic bar.

The techniques used in the 70’s and 80’s meant we could only recover about a third of the oil in the fields being exploited at that time. I recall that during the last major oil problem in the early 80’s I was involved in an experimental enhanced oil recovery project in an exhausted field in the Far East (it had been in operation since the 1930’s). The technique proved to be successful but it cost about $38 per recovered barrel and oil prices were below $40 and dropping therefore the project was shelved. Today the cost would easily be recovereable!

I’ve been retired some 15 years and am now out of touch but no doubt the recovery techniques have improved immensely in that time. Nonetheless I would hazard a guess that at today’s production rates the North Sea will continue to produce for another 30 to 50 years.

Then there is the Deep Sea potential reserves that haven’t been worked yet. This is largely due to the tax regime imposed by Brown making the Exploration Risks not financially viable. In effect he is killing the golden goose!

22

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/06/2008 01:29:24
SCOTTISH INDEPENDECE is the only answer for our children and their children thereafter. To rely on anything british is a folly. They are MORALLY and Financially CORRUPT.
23

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:34:42
24. Scotland also gets access to the huge profits from the oil and gas wells in the rest of the North Sea, English Channel, Atlantic and on land.

Scotland also gets access to the billions in profits from the City of London that simply dwarfs oil income.

There seems to be a lot you fail to understand about the differences between the US and the UK.

For starters, all tax income is shared so we don't have the disparities in public spending you get in the US.
Scotland also gets the second highest per capita spending of all the countries/regions of the UK.
24

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 01:43:38
29
And who gets the first?
25

Sanny,

Upwey 02/06/2008 01:44:20
20 Highland Mighty
Stop lying and trying to mislead readers. “The Great Deception” was compiled by a forensic Accountant from governments own published figures. It was submitted to the Treasury for comment, the Treasury acknowledged the figures were correct but had some niggles at interpretation. Despite wide circulation to government and the press no-one has to date succeeded challenging the conclusions of Niall’s report.

If you are convinced it is a shoddy report compiled by an amateur then perhaps the mighty highlander can succeed where all others have failed! So Put-up or Shut-up!
Question: - Did you bother to read the document? If so tell me what Scotland’s shortfall or surplus was per Niall’s report.

26

,

02/06/2008 01:46:31
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27

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 02/06/2008 01:48:32
Ah yes Bean the "listening party" - I feel your pain lame duck PM hands out another union dividend.

You couldn't make this up.
28

Sanny,

02/06/2008 01:54:00
29 Highland Mighty
Obfuscation again I’m afraid. There are some SMALL gas fields off the coast of Norfolk and a small oil field in the Poole harbour Area. Main oil production is at Whitch Farm – where I was once invited to be the Senior Engineer. Shell thought there was oil in an area of the New Forrest but after years of trying to deal with the NIMBY’s they gave up. The whole lot is small beer when compared to Fortes or the Brents.

If you can’t tell the truth then just STFU!!!

29

Sanny,

02/06/2008 02:02:56
32 Traqui
No thanks Traqui. I prefer to enjoy my retirement living mostly in the Algarve. A lifetime of eating sand in the desert, or sweating buckets in a rain forests or even worse freezing my tackle off in the North Sea I earned my retirement. I leave the work to you young guys.
Good Night all.

30

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/06/2008 02:04:19
There are 6 Million SCOTS living at home. There are 65 Million english living at home. Do the Math we the SCOTS Produce more per capitae than the english!! We are done with SUBSIDISING the ENGLISH, we saved them once back in 1984 and we are not doing it again.
31

Castaway,

02/06/2008 02:06:41
The New Economics Foundation (NEF) said the UK should follow the example of Norway, which had used its "accidental inheritance" to set up a Petroleum Fund worth $210bn at the end of 2005.24/10/2006(equivalent to $45,000 for every person living in Norway.
Now the fund is $387.3 billion in March 2008,Norway's central bank reported.15/04/2008 ($82,000 for every person living in Norway)
This is after an initial investment of $285m in 1990.

I am pleased to note that very few people have any problems with how we invest the Norwegian sovereign fund – the Government Pension Fund – Global. The Fund is large – around 250 billion Euros – and is still growing rapidly on the back of high petroleum revenues. This is a fund to help us manage our petroleum wealth well, avoiding the dreaded “resource curse” that afflicts so many countries rich in natural resources. The fund is also a tool to set aside enough savings to meet the large financial obligations associated with our public pension system. The Fund is an integral part of the government budget framework, where all surplus financial savings are invested abroad, and with a high degree of transparency surrounding all aspects of the fund.
Norwegian Minister of Finance Kristin Halvorsen - 18 April 2008
32

Sanny,

02/06/2008 02:11:18

Traquir
Final word: are you aware that in the early days of the North Sea oil venture, Alex Salmond was working for the RBS as an economist specialising in oil ventures?
He’s probably the only one in either parliament who know what he’s talking about on the subject of oil!!

Now for the OFF button and bed
33

Jimmy the Pie,

02/06/2008 03:03:29
HIGHLAND MIGHTY - various rambling, incoherant and downright stupid posts.

Where have you been???

What monikers are you posting under these days???

Is British Pride now 'dead'???

Will there be an obituary in the Hootsmoan???

Can I come to the funeral and wake???
34

Royster,

02/06/2008 04:24:25
#8. Traquir, your paranoia knows no bounds. Perhaps the oil refinery was built on Teeside because it is a large petrochemical centre. You say Teeside is 'as near as you can get to Scotland'. Take another look at the map, Middlesbrough is in Yorkshire which puts Durham and the whole of Northumberland between Teeside and Scotland. #16. With regard to Rockall and the west, take a look at this week's Economist. Apart from saying that North Sea oil is definitely on the wane it says there is no pipeline infrastructure to the west which would be expensive to install. Also, Gordon has raised the tax on oil to 50%. Also, didn't Robin Cook some how loosen the UK claim over Rockall?
35

,

02/06/2008 05:55:09
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36

Guga II,

Rockall 02/06/2008 06:11:45
The posts by the so-called Highland Mighty, Royster and the like should be judged by the fact that they are not Scottish. Like their English government, they try and bluster and lie their way towards trying to justify the outright theft of Scottish oil revenues.

Scotland continues to be treated like former English imperialist colonies, in that it is being totally exploited. They will, of course, give us our independence when they can no longer steal any money from us to subsidise Enland.

We should take our independence while we still have some oil left.
37

Mikey,

02/06/2008 06:34:53
Guga, the High and Mighty Saxon and his cohorts only exist because people like you feed the troll! I know it's hard to ignore a liar, but believe me, it's better in the long run.

These anti Scots have nothing to add to the debate and are, at best, winding you all up and at worst, outright liars. Whatever they are, they are not worthy of a reply.
38

Royster,

02/06/2008 06:39:41
#47. So what? City of London profits are redistributed throughout the UK.
39

Royster,

02/06/2008 06:43:24
Why shouldn't oil profits be distributed throughout the UK? It's the same country. If you want independence then hold a referendum.
40

Royster,

02/06/2008 06:47:26
Alex Salmond seems to have the same economic thinking as Roderick Spode from Bertie Wooster.
41

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 07:13:44
#29 Highland Mighty

You are a great puryeyor of fiction.

Corporate taxes from the Oil and Gas sector dwarf those from the Financial Sector.

Oil and Gas Business tax rates are at 50% while the wounded Financial sector pays 28%.

Oil and Gas contributed 7.8 Billion in 2007 and this is expected to grow to 9.9 Billion in 2008.

If Scotland was Independent we would receive 90% of those taxes, as well as all the royalty revenue.

Time to give give up the Goebells school of propoganda. The Lie only works when people don't have access to the truth. (McCrone)

Wait till the Gers for 2006 and 2007 come out this summer. For the first time we have a Scottish Government that won't manipulate the figures.
42

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 07:16:50
#51

Corporate profits are distributed to the shareholders no matter where they live.
43

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 07:20:31
It's Shetland's oil. The Shetlanders should stage an independence from the union with Scotland referendum.

It's time the SNP based it's economic plans on something far less ephermeral than dubious claims to far away oil fields. Oil is capital and will soon be used up. Only morons live off capital. It's time for us to live off income (renewables).
44

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:25:36
#6. But they pay tax on profits.
45

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:26:06
Sorry should be #56 not #6
46

john z,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 07:37:55
Alex Salmond is doing the right thing for Scotland, unlike the labour turncoats.

If I had not seen the McCrone report itself (available here http://tinyurl.com/3sdrdg ), I too would not have believed the full extent of the deceit perpetrated by successive London Governments. All designed to stop the people of Scotland realising how much money they are sitting on with their North sea oil reserves.

As regards the oil fields themselves, it is estimated by most experts that the price of oil will not decrease significantly, and will likely continue to increase, due to demand exceeding supply in countries like India and China. It is widely beleived that oil and gas will continue being pumped from Scotland for another thirty years.

I cannot understand how anyone would want to stay part of the UK after reading the suppressed Mccrone report from the 1970's.

It is Scotlands oil, it worth lots of money, it would make Scotland wealthy, but successive English governments have quite deliberately lied repeatedly to the people of Scotland about it. What kind of a union is that????
47

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:42:58
#60. I disagree. There is only one nation - the UK.
48

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:48:30
#60. For the sake of argument, let's suppose that Scotland becomes independent and immensely wealthy for the next 80 years on oil wealth. How would that wealth be redistributed? Would English people be allowed north of the border to work and live of the oil revenue, for example?
49

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:54:59
#65 It's still possible to English, Scottish and Welsh and NI and be part of the UK. That's what we have been doing for years. I just wouldn't put the interest of a constituent part of the UK above the UK itself. Personaly, I would call that treason.
50

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:55:16
Typo, I mean personally.
51

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 07:59:37
#64

Since Scotland would most likely remain part of the EU there would be no difficulty in people from either country crossing the border to work and live.

52

Castaway,

02/06/2008 08:02:16
#57 - Rulesbutnotrulers:Oil is capital and will soon be used up.
Money week - An estimated 27 billion barrels of oil remain untapped in the North Sea,what remains of North Sea oil will be hot property for anyone who gets their hands on it.
Oil and gas firms could keep pumping plenty out of the UK North Sea for around 30-50 years, according to research by leading academics. August 27 2007
Norwegian Sovereign fund - the Government Pension Fund - Global is $387.3 billion in March 2008, Norway's central bank reported.15/04/2008 ($82,000 for every person living in Norway)
P.S.27 billion barrels of oil at between $100-200 a barrel over the next 30-50 years is a lot of money for a nation of 5 million people. Off course the dwindling supply of oil means the oil price per barrel will rise making the North Sea Oil more valuable with Scotland having Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves.
53

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 08:15:26
The fact that an Independent Scotland would be more wealthy than if she remained in the UK will become increasingly evident to people across Scotland as we approach the referendum.

The Unionist fear mongering is being believed by less people every day.

People by and large vote based on enlightened self interest. As it becomes evident that an Independant Scotland could afford even better public services while at the same time reducing the tax burden, people will naturally support Independence.
54

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 02/06/2008 08:19:15
Highlandmighty
Royster
Rulesbutnorulers

union apologists all.
55

Royster,

02/06/2008 08:29:10
#70. Then let's have a vote and sort it out. Close Holyrood and have a referendum on independence for Scotland.
56

Royster,

02/06/2008 08:32:30
#70 I don't object to self determination. I object to the irrational undermining of the UK and the possibiity of 'neverendums'. Scotland should either be fully in the UK or fully out. I'm, obviously, for the former but if the democratic wish is otherwise then so be it.
57

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 02/06/2008 08:41:57
The question has to be asked..

What is/has Gordon Brown done with all the money?

A pile of cash was raised in the name of 'the enviromment - global warning', etc and was supposed to have been ringfenced. On closer inspection it seems that much of it was used to prop up unsavoury dictators, finance various wars and of course prepare for the worlds biggest drugsfest in London in just over 4 years time. Oops, nearly forgot the cromies, special advisers, and extra quangos....


58

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 02/06/2008 08:45:18
#51, #58

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Yes, the City Of London is legendary for its diligent payment of taxes and even-handed redistribution of wealth.

I commend most genuinely your apparent ability to make those comments with a straight face.
59

Marian,

02/06/2008 08:51:25
Over the past decades the North Sea has become one of the UK Government's biggest corporate tax cows, generating more than £230bn in revenue since 1968. It was multinational corporations who paid for the infrastructure as part of their investment in the North Sea, with no public funding from Her Majesty's Treasury. The Treasury is expecting to make around £10bn this year from oil revenues, though experts at Grant Thornton think this could rise as high as £16bn due to higher oil prices.

The UK Government, not the EU or the UN have already deliniated the boundaries of the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS) in the North Sea as "Scots" or "English" territory, by using international law and precedent. This is enshrined in legislation - the Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968. This was done because of the existence of different legal systems between Scotland and England within the UK. These precedents and international law put over 90% of the UK oil resource in the Scots sector. The vast majority of UK oil resources lie in the CENTRAL North Sea. If you look at an oil fields map and cast your eyes eastwards anywhere from John O'Groats down past Aberdeen, to as far south as Fife you will find that there are large numbers of oil fields in this area - and all are delineated in the Scots sector. There are also oil fields to the far north east of Shetland in a second sector of the North Sea, lying on the UK Continental Shelf (Scots sector) with the boundary with the Norwegian Sector. They are also placed in the Scots Jurisdiction area of the UK Continental Shelf.

Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced
60

Marian,

02/06/2008 08:52:24
continued............

Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced by Freedom of Information law to release it. The report advised the then Labour Government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. The report is at http://www.snpyouth.

It appears that Unionists do not believe the above report and prefer their claims that Scotland is an “economic basket case”.The supreme irony is that their claims completely destroys the case for the Union on the Scottish front AND on the English front.
61

thinking,

Scotland 02/06/2008 08:57:58
Before devolution there were a MPs representing Scotland at the seat of UK government.
After devolution there are MPs representing Scotland at the seat of UK government. Plus, many, many MSPs representing Scotland in Edinburgh, in a hugely expensive building, plus many quangos and others, spending a huge amount of taxpayers money to do what the MPs used to do
!!!!!!!!!!
62

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:00:03
#71 Castaway.

1. It's either Britain's oil or it's Shetlands. Scotland has no superior claim. Oil is a finite, so it must and will soon run out. Even 70 years soon passes (ask any old man). Oil is a valuable feed stock for other industries so to burn it is an utter waste. Especially when renewabl energy abounds. An economy thirled to oil must fail.

2. Richard Taylor. You are wrong about me. I dislike this Union as much as most. It's just that I don't want to risk independence before we first try federation and that also fails. Federation can and do succeed: USA/Switzerland/Canada/Australia. Let's see what we can learn from these (and also from the federations which have failed-{nearly all compelled ones, I see}).
63

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/06/2008 09:14:49
Salmond is a trouble maker supreme. He never gives a straight answer in Holyrood, is evasive, deceitful, and ultimately dishonest and all this will eventually be revealed. The oil crisis is a global issue and other areas of the economy are being affected that reduce income to the government of the day, any day. If people choose to ignore this fact then they are being deceitful, hence my comments re Salmond and crew can be justified yet again.
64

kimba,

02/06/2008 09:15:34
The UK Government is simply that,a government for the whole of the UK,as the oil in the north sea is British oil,(and you scots can argue the point 'til hell freezes over) salmond needs to take his arrogant and bigoted rhetoric and stuff it where the sun don't shine!
65

Mcsnagpile,

02/06/2008 09:23:33
We do not need Scottish oil. We need Scotsmen stout and true.
66

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 09:24:39
#82 Rules

So you can see the merits of independence, but would rather see a federal option explored first.
So why do you continue to berate and insult those who believe in independence? Would you support an oil fund for Scotland within this federation? Like Alaska within the US federation.

You're sounding like a stuck record on the Shetland thingie. No one's listening. We're obviously not clever enough to get whatever vision it is that you have.
67

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 09:35:59
This is great stuff from Salmond. This what I voted SNP for. Darling is up to his neck in financial quicksand, and is digging his heels in! Not clever!

As Ian McWhirter said in his very good article in the Herald yesterday, " We wont be fooled again".

I was explaining this story to my 11 yr old this morning, and she said, " If Gordon Brown can't deal with David Cameron, what makes him think he can deal with a man like Alex Salmond? If he thinks he can he's kidding himself."

I can't add anything to that.
68

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:38:24
Rules again shows the desperation of his arguement when he has to introduce the Shetland rubbish. Even he knows that the Act of Union acknowledges that Scotland as a Nation signed the accord based on its sovereign terratories of that time. That is exactly the same terms we will invoke to end this Union of Misery for so many Scottish Folk.

What I do find puzzling is that the Unionists like Rules drag the bottom of the barrel when it comes to justifying why we should remain in the UK. There is never a practical, sensible or logical reason put forward by these type.

They consistantly omit the facts, because the fact of the matter are that Scotland a Nation in its own right,will in fact cease to exist as a country in the EU, and indeed the same will apply to England and Wales. We will be recognised purely as a region of the British Islands. We will never again have the voting rights, to sway an English dominated population of 50 million people versus 5 million Scots.

Norway has an Oil Fund Reserve approaching half a Trillion Dollars. China with all its population and massive investment now has 1.79 Trillion Dollars in surplus. Thats cash in hand. Scotland has NO Surplus. Years and Years of feeble weak Government in a Foreign Country who still havent recognised that they are still living in the past, and demonstrate it on a daily basis by spending our future through massive debts, to keep up the facade of greatness.

We dont make anything, or have a tangible industry base. Indeed we have all just witnessed that our entire wealth other than oil is based on some futures traders perception. Our Paper Money is valued on an opinion, with nothing of substance to actually back it up. We export weapons of war and very little else except half a million Brits a Year.

And Rules want the Scottish People to remain part of this sinking ship. No Thanks Its Time.
69

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 09:44:06
#84 Kimba

Oh stop it Kimba! What bigoted rhetoric would that be?
Which aspect of Scottish territorial waters do you not understand?
70

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:49:03
#88 A better way. You are wrong!

1. I don't support the UK/Union 2. SNP has already said (or so I'm told) it will allow Shetland to have referendum on remaining Scottish, so matters are far from being as settled as you suggest. 3. A Federal GB is far better than jumping from frying pan to fire. Nats realise this and so hate and ridicule anyone who dares point it out.
71

Castaway,

02/06/2008 09:59:21
#82:Rulesbutnotrulers: If Sheland wanted independence then the best of luck to them, it is upto The Shetlanders without interference from the rest of Scotland/UK to decide, same goes for the Isle of Wight etc
I cannot see any benifit of Scotland being part of a UK federation.
Oil is a finate resource that is why Norway has set up its the Norwegian Sovereign fund - the Government Pension Fund - Global which is worth £196 billion after an initial investment of £174m in 1990 and this is for a nation of nearly 4.7 people.
Now what has happened to the UK's £350 billion in royalties taken over last 30 years from the North Sea into London ?
72

Melly,

Sussex 02/06/2008 10:03:12
"some tax increases are going up while others are going down" how does a tax increase go down ? only the liebour louts could come away with that one !!
73

Tom R,

02/06/2008 10:10:52
#90 Rulesbutnotrulers

On the Shetland issue, as has been said by others, good luck to them if they do want independence-but I would not bet on it.

As Winnie Ewing pointed out in her autobiography, she took the majority of the vote in the Euro elections in every direct Euro election since 1984. Hardly a sign that the there is root and branch opposition to the SNP is it? :-)
74

kimba,

02/06/2008 10:34:41
89. Indeed,and have you never heard of BRITISH OIL,it's the same as British Gas and British coal,but there again scotlands attitude is "whats mine is mine,and whats yours is mine"!
75

boudica,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 10:39:01
Alec using this as a smoke screen for all his Lalaland Policies that are failing to please ....
76

Melly,

Sussex 02/06/2008 10:50:53
It`s quite mind boggling how these unionist apologists delight in denying Scotland the right to be in control of it`s own resources even denying it the right to claims on it`s inernationally agreed geographical territory on land and sea. Scottish Oil ? - no it`s Shetland`s Oil ( an internationally agreed part of the Scottish nation ) Rockall ? ah! well that`s not proven and the UK government have already agreed to deny ownership to Scotland, build a oil refinery in Scotland? no better to build it in England then we can`t send even further tax revenues to the UK treasury and increase our GDP. What other country has such treacherous nationals purporting to speak on behalf of the Scottish Nation.
77

kimba,

02/06/2008 11:01:42
boudica. you said it! not only failing to please,but slightly illegal!
78

Alan B,

02/06/2008 11:17:32
Good for Salmond. But i do not expect Brown to give in, as he fights englands corner.

U wait decades for a scottish pm and when one does get in he sets about being an english wannabe.
79

Alan B,

02/06/2008 11:19:20
The idea of scotland being part of the union is becuase it benefits scotland. But scottish unionists see it more as a way to sell out scotland rather than get a good deal for scotland.
80

kimba,

02/06/2008 11:43:32
99. maybe you should learn to spell "BECAUSE" CORRECTLY FIRST!
81

kimba,

02/06/2008 11:47:34
SALMOND IS A "WANNA" BE,maybe we should just abolish Hollyrood!
82

CLX,

ABZ 02/06/2008 12:02:06
Here's a couple of beauties from the mouth of Broon's Darling:

Chancellor Alistair Darling yesterday rejected the argument that the Treasury has been given an unexpected £4billion tax bonanza on the back of rocketing oil prices. "BLATANT LIE"

And Mr Darling said: “You can’t look at any one tax in isolation. If oil prices go up, that has a knock-on effect on activity in other parts of the economy.”

Re the second quote...no sh!t Sherlock...

83

LEAL,

02/06/2008 12:03:27
Another example of the Holyrood govt trying to act in Scotlands best interests but being denied what is rightfuly ours by London.
84

danielrober,

02/06/2008 12:11:14
Give us a break Alex.S, find another tune this one is getting boring. Do you know any other songs or are are you just a one hit wonder?
85

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 12:16:21
101 Kimba

"maybe we should just abolish Hollyrood!"

What makes you think it's any of your business? You'll get the tory govt. that you want, free from any Scots interference, and we'll sort ourselves out in the way that we see fit.
You're right that Salmond's a 'wanabe'. Wanabe in control of our own finances, resources, and future. Free from outside interference and exploitation. Isn't that what you want for your own country? Isn't that what most nations want?

Oh, and " Pot, kettle, and black" to the spelling lessons Kimba.
86

CLX,

ABZ 02/06/2008 12:17:08
Here's one for the likes of Kimba to explain:

"Mr Salmond also wants the UK Government to scrap the planned October rise in fuel duty and introduce a fuel duty regulator so that the extra money raised from higher oil prices can be used to cut the amount of tax paid."

Now, without any reference to independence in there, why was this dismissed out of hand by Westminster?

"But the prime minister’s spokeswoman said the UK Government did not accept there was a windfall from oil taxes, as any extra revenues were offset by other areas of the economy in which tax receipts were falling."

How many more lies can the UK (not just Scotland) put up with before the squatters in Downing street are evicted???????

87

kimba,

02/06/2008 12:20:57
105. sour grapes, you are a bigoted fool, I truly hope cameron does what he promised the people of England, then and only then will salmond be put in his place!
88

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 12:27:28
#38

"There are 6 Million SCOTS living at home. There are 65 Million english living at home. Do the Math we the SCOTS Produce more per capitae than the english!! We are done with SUBSIDISING the ENGLISH, we saved them once back in 1984 and we are not doing it again."

I think if anyone needs to 'do the math' it is you:

The population of Scotland is 5.1m, not 6m, the population of England is 50m - nowhere near the 65m you say.

I also fail to understand why you feel qualified to comment on an article that has nothing whatsoever to do with you. You apparently live in LA and appear to be American (calling maths 'math') so I have no idea why you think you are Scottish - just because your great-great-great grandparent may have emigrated to America doesn't make you Scottish.

Also saying 'we are done with subsiding the English' seems very strange, I didn't realise America contributed in any way to English subsidies.
89

kimba,

02/06/2008 12:28:25
106. Are you stupid! Darling has just spent an extra 2.5 million pounds compensating those who suffered under abolishing the 10% tax rate,he can't do everything!
90

CLX,

ABZ 02/06/2008 12:35:31
Kimba,
Not stupid but you obviously are!!
Spending 2.5 million on their own f*ck up hardly explains anything. Basically, they're using the extra money to cover up their mistakes.

Missing you already ye puddin.........
91

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 12:38:11
#107 Kimba

Sour grapes? Over what? And in what way am I bigoted?
Come on Kimba. Let's not go down the silly name calling route again.

I bear you and your fellow countrymen no ill will at all, and I wish you all the best in sorting yourselves out. We all get the government we deserve. I hope the Scottish example will prove to be inspirational to your once great nation. I hope you demand more from westminster than the bankrupt incompetents that have been foisted on you at the moment. Raise your sights a bit. Try a bit of optimism. It's working wonders on the Scottish national psyche. But above all,........keep it real hen!
92

John S,

02/06/2008 12:48:33
The Scottish Government and Parliament have the unquestionable right, and indeed duty, to express themselves on any issue that concerns the welfare of the people and land of Scotland, and to make representations where such are required.
93

Niadh,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 12:50:43
#63 Royster.
Can i invite you to take a close look at the FULL title of this nation in which you apparently live??
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Great Britain being...
"Great Britain" describes the combination of England, Scotland, and Wales, and therefore also includes a number of outlying islands such as the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Isles of Scilly, the Hebrides, and the island groups of Orkney and Shetland, but does not include other outlying islands such as the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands
94

snoozyowl,

Wales 02/06/2008 12:50:57
Poor old Gordon Brown! Now his own countrymen are sticking in the knife... Of course the oil belongs to Scotland (and I might add the water to Wales, a somewhat more renewable resource), but he can't even think of admitting that or his whole financial plans will fall completely to bits. Good to have such friends!
95

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 12:53:10
Why does the SNP want the Queen to remain as head of state of an independent Scotland?

Surely if Scotland becomes independent it would be far more cost-effective to abolish the Royal Family's role as head of state and thereby save on the millions of pounds that Scotland's taxpayers would still have to contribute towards the upkeep of Balmoral and Holyrood Palace.
96

Alan B,

02/06/2008 13:07:17
#Tellen1

I think they see it as an issue to be discussed after independence and should not be seen as some distraction from the main issue. Taking control of our own resources and using them for the benefit of the country.
97

Angus Ogg,

02/06/2008 13:37:18
#2 Highland,

I have read a few of your posts, and was pretty much turned off by you. It is a bit like being in a pub and being approached by someone you really cannot warm to.

Please don't reply to my posts and I wont reply to yours.

Having seen what you write and the abusive way you treat people I would prefer to have nothing to do with you.

Thankyou.
98

Jock MacSprog,

02/06/2008 13:46:53
A.S. has become a characture of himself.

Question to all the NAT coolaide drinkers, will all the companies who own the oilfields, explore, produce, transport, refine, etc just step aside and hand over ownership to this entity "Scotland" under your master plan ? The point being, the oil isnt really the UK Gvt's to give away to Scotland is it ?????