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Published Date: 18 May 2008
SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.

But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim community by hindering integration.

Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow. While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border, both private and state-supported, Scottish Muslims have so far failed to establish a faith school and some in the community question whether it is a good idea in an age of increased ethnic and religious tension.

Scotland has more than 400 publicly funded Roman Catholic schools as well as three state-supported Scottish Episcopalian schools and a publicly funded Jewish school.

A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the idea. The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools are a good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. The issue is whether there is a sustainable demand for them.

"We would expect a local authority to react positively where there is a sustainable case."

After failing in a previous campaign, a group of Muslim community leaders in Glasgow is preparing a case for at least one school, which they will present in about two months' time. They are gathering names of families who they think will want to send their children to an Islamic school.

A spokesman for the campaign said: "We're working on things right now so that we can present a strong case to the authority – to show that we are united behind this and that there are enough of us so that the case is obviously sustainable."

Glasgow City Council said it would consider any reasonable plan that parents could come up with. A spokeswoman for council leader Stephen Purcell said: "Basically, if the parents come forward with a sustainable plan, both financially and educationally, we will consult on that plan."

The full article contains 378 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Alfred E. Neuman,

18/05/2008 00:01:53
Salmond is a joke.
2

,

18/05/2008 00:08:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
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3

Conan the Librarian™,

18/05/2008 00:19:34
Not "comfortable" with this.
Schools should be secular.
4

subrosa,

18/05/2008 00:26:30
No, no, no. Don't do this. As Conan says schools should be secular. The SNP will lose thousands of votes if this goes ahead because the public don't support it.
5

Vivas,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 00:30:12
Agreed Conan. I don't like it one little bit either.

Surely to goodness ... Secular state = secular education.

Catholic education, islamic education, wee-free education ... whatever ... none of these should have a place in Scottish society. We just saw during the week past how old hatreds are perpetuated in this country. I don't want an education system that shores that up, either now or in a future independent Scotland.
6

whitegold,

Shire 18/05/2008 00:40:37
#5
I have to disagree. I don't accept the State should be dictating everything. In principle I think what happens in education should be in partnership with parents. I've no problem if there is sufficient demand from parents. My reservation is that would the religious element be an ethos or something domineering?
7

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 18/05/2008 00:43:31
Like I said once before...Glub, Glub, Glub..more political correctness, and more of you drowning in it.
If they want an Islamic school, the Islamic community should raise the money and pay for it; there should be a separation of church and state for any school. Yhr gov't should not support religious schools.
8

MtnKat,

On Holiday At The Grand Canyon, Breathtaking 18/05/2008 00:45:59
Based on the headline, I agree with the above comments. Unfortunately, I couldn't read the article. I'm getting the message "The article has been unable to display."
9

MtnKat,

On Holiday At The Grand Canyon, Breathtaking 18/05/2008 00:56:21
Ah, now it's showing.
I am receiving quite an education here. One of the foundations of their constitution is separation of church and state.
It has it's merits.
10

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 18/05/2008 00:56:35
Very bad idea.

I believe we should be working towards all schools being secular.

I don't remember this ever being supported by SNP National Conference. It would almost certainly get voted down if the leadership allowed a debate on it.
11

subrosa,

18/05/2008 00:58:55
# 9 Wardog when I mentioned votes it was my way of saying how much the public would be against this.

My opinion is that this is a Christian country first and foremost and the denominal schools which currently exist have been there for many years, although I don't necessarily agree we should have them in this country.

To ask taxpayers to pay for a non-Christian school is one step too far for me.

Is Muslims or any other non Christian faith wishes their own schools then let them finance them. I have no problem with that. Why is it necessary for Muslims to have their own schools? There are plenty schools in Glasgow with falling rolls I'm told.


12

subrosa,

18/05/2008 00:59:56
Is should read If, apologies
13

Alfred E. Neuman,

18/05/2008 01:16:30
13 Subrosa

Come, come silly child, Alex Salmond and the SNP do not give a flyer about principles, they are going to buy some more votes for independence.

It is well known many economic immigrants reject British values, and rejecting the union if you got your own we seperatist school would be worth it.

Salmond fears letting the Scots speak, so wants to get as many foreigners as possible domiciled here and on the electoral register so they can destroy something British for him.

Who cares if Scotland then becomes secular? He doesn't, he's a selfish, moraless swine.
14

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 18/05/2008 01:24:32
whitegold #7 said:

"I don't accept the State should be dictating everything." Yes, but that doesn't mean they should be paying to allow schools to be controlled by religions.

"In principle I think what happens in education should be in partnership with parents. I've no problem if there is sufficient demand from parents." It should be up to the parents to 'educate' their children in their religion (within limits).

"My reservation is that would the religious element be an ethos or something domineering?" Do you really think that in Catholic or Muslim schools religion isn't domineering?

15

Cincinnatus,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 01:24:56
It's a consistent policy commitment, deepens support for RC schools and starts to transform the agenda.

Zealous secularism is no more or less damaging than any kind of zealousness.
16

Conan the Librarian™,

18/05/2008 01:34:48
7
Islam? Domineering?

Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse...
17

Fraser MacDonald,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 02:32:26
Why does the Scottish government think it is acceptable do segregate children on the basis of their parents' religion, and then brainwash them by promoting one faith over another (or none)?

We should be eradicating all forms of religious and racial discrimination, not finding new ones.
18

karinxxx,

18/05/2008 03:26:13
i personally dont have a fixed religion of any kind in fact i dont think i am too sure that a god any god exists.
However some people do and i think we have to live and let live.

To argue that religion brainwashes children towards a particular religion misses the point that to advocate state control of religous education is also brainwashing children against a particular religion.

if i say that i belevie in the religion of faries does that mean that if the govenment declares that I should not be taught about faries that the faries will no longer exist.

Religiion does not lead to sectarianism people do. Surely therefore it is people who should be legislated agaisnt and not religion?

I think that the government should provide secular education and that the different religions ie. parents and preachers should provide the funding for relisgous education of any kind. that way all religions can be heard or if parents choose NONE.

19

W Smith,

Middle East 18/05/2008 04:01:27
"The Islamic faith is one of the world's great religions" said Alex Salmond just days after the WTC attack in September 2001.

After an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon our First Minister will jump up and shout "Judaism is one of the world's great religions" then, eh?

This is the same Alex Bin Salmond who can't support our Scottich troops in Afghanistan but he can support divisive Islamic education.

BTW
One muslim school in Dundee was closed down as it was run my militants who had no intention of giving the kids academic education - it was religious education.

The SNP in Dundee (Hosie and Fitzpatrick) said nothing and just looked the other way.

TYPICAL.
20

missing home,

la verne 18/05/2008 05:54:14
People of different faiths who come here, to a basically Christian country, should not expect any special benefits nor to make their new country their old, only different(maybe). It is mind boggling how bend over backwards western civilisation is, jeez oh!
Mr. Salmond, so far I have respected and been proud of most of your moves, not what I can say for the opposition, don't lose it now!
21

Pender Paul,

Pender Island 18/05/2008 06:17:11
Not a penny for any religious school, period. Schools are for the teaching of literacy, numeracy, physical education, vocational training and science. Period. Let those who want a religious experience go to the place of their choice at the weekend.
22

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 06:46:51
# 5
It sound as if you don't care to much for Chatholic education in Scotland Let me tell you something,it's sound's like to me as if you are a bigot, But I'm sure you don't know the definition of the word bigot,look in the mirror you will see what a bigot is.
I'm all for a free Scotland, you on the other hand need to open your eyes and see what's going on in your in the world today,THAT'S RIGHT,IT'S NOT WHAT YOU WANT IT WHAT'S GOOD FOR SCOTLAND,Education is a door opener, But I guess all your doors are closed.
EMPTY VESELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE,THINK ABOUT IT?
23

,

18/05/2008 06:47:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
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24

,

18/05/2008 06:52:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
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25

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 06:56:08
# 27
I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER,I GUESS WHEN I LEFT SCHOOL BACK IN 72 SHE WAS STILL THERE.
26

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 07:10:33
#30
I didn't realize my grammar & my punctuation was so important, I was replying to a comment made by someone else, and not you, I take it you are an EDITOR / ENGLISH TEACHER, or just someone that looks for minor faults in others,if any.
I suggest by judging me maybe makes you feel good about yourself,if that is so,all I can say,you must have a very sad life.
27

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 18/05/2008 07:17:48
When I was in school in Montrose there were two Roman Catholic pupils in my class. They went out when the rest of us were getting R.E. which was basically just reading the Bible (King James) and I don't remember any doctrine being taught. In High School we had a morning assembly when we sang a hymn or two. In those days Scotland was at least nominally a Christian country.
A country's strength is built on its foundations. Nowadays the foundations appear to be becoming fragmented by Multi-culturalism and I can't see that as being an improvement. Would someone like to try to persuade me otherwise?
28

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 07:18:12
# 33
Very well said,this is how it was for me also,the janitors where cool dudes,but at that time I didn't realize it.
29

subrosa,

18/05/2008 07:22:15
# 15

Don't patronise me. I'm old enough to be your grandmother and have been round the block quite a few times. Also you're wrong. This won't get Alex Salmond more support; quite the reverse.

# 26 Well said. I'm off to email my MSP as I feel strongly about this. We mustn't have any more division on religious grounds.
30

FritzRutland,

Nova Scotia 18/05/2008 07:25:36
This bloody fool of a first minister,truly believes himself to be clever. Scotland can and should do better.
Mac.
31

catgut,

pomona 18/05/2008 07:29:07
its time that all schools were free of religion. Soon they will be teaching kids that a man in a cloud made the planet in 7 days.
32

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 07:39:43
#35 Stewart
I like your train of thought,you are absolutely right everything should be built on a good foundation,this is why we are having so many problems today,the foundations are being destroyed,but their is knowone repairing them, O so easy to ignore them,and hope that someone else fixes the problem.
PS I hope my grammar and punctuation is okay with you.
33

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 07:49:08
I seem to remember being taught about all religions at RE lessons at school (admittedly, it was a long time ago, and I wasn't paying the slightest bit of attention). By all means teach childern about religion, but keep enforced prayers out of education.

However, if parents want to send their childern to a particular schoool, based on their religion, that's up to them, as long as the ciriculum is followed. I just think it is a bit misguided, aspecially on the 'integration' front, but then again, who wants a society where everyone is exactly the same?
34

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 07:49:22
Bring them on
I take it you are still in Scotland, I immigrated back in 98 to the good old U.S.A
But my heart is,and will always be with Scotland.
I get home sick sometimes even to this day,I guess it will always be this way.
35

The Tin Man,

Over teh Rainbow 18/05/2008 07:53:58
#35 Stewart

Ahhh... yes, you are right - in my school the catholics did get seperate RE lessons from the rest. Does that still go on?
36

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 08:13:21
#30
Before making comments about other peoples Grammar / Punctuation / Spelling.
I suggest you look at your own ( FIRST ) this is not a personal chat line,it is like an open book,I guess by your Grammar,Punctuation, Spelling it's been a while since you looked at on,I SUGGEST YOU GET OUT YOUR DICTIONARY.
PS Please have as we say here in the U.S hAve A wOnDerFUlL dAY?
37

,

18/05/2008 08:16:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
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38

big big fun,

18/05/2008 08:18:51
why has the scotsman stopped anyone from commenting on the sports section ?
39

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 08:23:03
Bring then on
I don't really know what to say to you that would mend your feelings for your football team.
Only time will tell,it will be another headline in the Daily Record for others to dwell on, you never know Liverpool, or Blachburn, Montrose, Aberdeen, or may be even Celtic next week, it will as you are aware go on for some time,just like anything else News something to talk about in the local bar/ pub.
40

Garry Otton,

SCOTTISH MEDIA MONITOR com 18/05/2008 08:31:42
NO! NO! NO!

Already in Salmond's divided Scotland we are promised more sectarian schools. Now what?

School inspectors have already been forced to close these schools down. Will Sunnis and Sh'ias be fighting to demand separate schools too? Religion should have an age of consent.
41

Alan B,

18/05/2008 08:36:47
I am against islamic schools and think the snp is wrong with this policy. However to be consistent u have to ban all faith schools. The problem at the moment is that it is simply wrong to allow some faiths religious schools and not others. It is discriminitory, sectarian and incourages the view that it is simply racist.

I am against all faith schools anyway. Catholic schools bread divide in our society. I am not saying that is their intension but simply by not allowing kids to grow up and mix with everyone else causes this divide.

If u want to practice religion this can be done in churches, mosques and temples and should not be done in the school.

Having said that until politicians do the right thing and abolish all faith schooling then u cannot ban muslin schools only.
42

Garry Otton,

SCOTTISH MEDIA MONITOR com 18/05/2008 08:38:27
# 45 TinMan.

The Government has rejected a recommendation from the parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights (JCHR) that school pupils of "sufficient maturity and intelligence" should be able to opt out of religious education and collective worship. It is nothing short of the brainwashing of children is schools.

And it doesn't stop there! Have you wondered why there isn't some qualified comment following a news story, but instead, the BBC radio news has to be interrupted by religious proselytising? (They call it 'Thought for the Day')
43

Jimmy the Pie,

18/05/2008 08:45:48
I'm against ALL religious schools. Secular has to be the way ahead. There are no faith schools in Orkney and no religious intolerance (apart from that brought into the islands).
Think again Alex
44

thinking,

Scotland 18/05/2008 08:47:15
If the public are so against faith schools, as so many posters are saying, then why do so many non-Catholics try to get their children into Catholic schools?
Could it be the better discipline and generally higher standards that these schools have?
45

whitegold,

Shire 18/05/2008 08:49:27
Out of interest why are different types of schools 'divisive'?

Does diversity necesssarily mean division?

Perhaps we ought to ban independent schools since they are divisive? Or home schooling - it is different and so divisive.

Lets ban football teams and political parties. They are divisive. In fact people shouldn't really have their own opinions. Let the government tell us what is acceptable to think and jail everyone who differs.

You can justify anything under the umbrella of 'ban it it is divisive'.

I'm not a fan of Islam - but I'm even less of a fan of the State taking away any freedom of choice from people.

The calls of banning schools because they are 'divisive' just doesn't hold water. In fact those holding that POV seem every bit as bad as Islamic fundamentalists who go around trampling on personal freedoms at every opportunity.
46

expat in the sun,

La Oliva 18/05/2008 08:53:14
With all the problems in the world caused by religeous zealots and their adherants - governments should be getting rid of secular schools - not encouraging them - and cetainly not funding them from the public purse.

But only in UK, and Scotland is no better, would you find such PC nonsense even being considered.

Another of the reasons I don't live in Scotland anymore
47

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 08:53:29
#51
It's not as you have put it descriminated, education in Scotland has always as far as I can remember, had Catholic schools and none Catholic schools.
As a matter of fact,when I was at school on one side of the street was a Catholic school,and right across the street was a none Catholic school,most of my best friends where at differant schools,it was never a topic of what school you went to it was just a bunch of kids going to differant schools,but we all played afterwords ( together as kids do )
Sounds like you have a problem with R.C schools,let me let you in to something I have known for about 51 years now,it not going to change or go away.
Don't be so upset,get over it, I'm sure you have friends, or your children have friends that go to R.C school, or may be you will need a blood transfusion some day and the blood you got came from someone that was a,as you put it Roman Catholic, I take it that your anger may subside.
(((( good night )))
48

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 18/05/2008 08:57:41
Retrograde step. Segregation by definition segregates.

A recent report indicated that there was islamaphobia and moslems find it difficult to fully integrate due to it. Further segregation won't help!

Rather than succumb to pressure for more state sponsored religious schools he would be better to plan to eradicate them all and create a truly integrated education system free from indoctrination of any sort.

Child abuse is rightly condemned in all other areas of life and should also be with religious 'faith'. Teach our children to think for themselves first, present the honest comparative truth, and let them decide.

The alternative is, where there is parental pressure, let them finance the school themselves and not expect others to support their narrow and restricting world view.

Until, of course, there is no need for religion at all.
49

Navvy,

18/05/2008 09:05:35
Not good
Divisive we already have kids picking on other kids because they go to a catholic or non-catholic school

Review the policies on grant aided schools. If the Muslim community want muslim schools then they can have the percapita cost of providing school places to build and run their own schools subjuec to the core curriculum being provided and inspected
50

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 18/05/2008 09:08:55
Whitegold, you're right. The state should but out and not finance any religious schools rather than support more!

Parents SHOULD have the choice? And if they really want it, let them build their own schools and teach their own children.

We've seen the repercussions of that over the centuries with almost all conflicts, persecutions and the even the worst abuses of last century having their genesis in religious belief of some kind or other.

It's a wonderful example to give our children.
51

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 09:11:23
To most of you guys out there,the government has some of you arguing with one another,we are all Scottish here,if we all had to go fight for our country again,would it matter what religion you where if the guy next to you just saved your life, I AS YOU, I YOU EVEN CONSIDER SAYING YES, I SUGGEST THE NEXT TIME THE ROUND MAY JUST FIND IT'S TARGET!!!!
1.10 AM OVER HERE IN VEGAS. GOOD NIGHT
52

Alan B,

18/05/2008 09:15:17
#thinking

"Could it be the better discipline and generally higher standards that these schools have?"

i thought it was untrue that faith schools have higher academic achievement. i remember seeing a tv report a while ago that stated this was a falsehood said be supporters of religious schools that could not be substantiated.

The issue is not really whether a religious school is better run but whether it has damaging affects to society as a whole.

Growing up as a kid and meeting muslim kids and having muslim friends at school creates a positive environment. If they were kept separate and u did not have muslim friends at school it would encourage ignorance and allow views to be set by the media.

One thing i noticed, is that i did not think about a persons religion at school. I had friends from school who were muslim, hindu and sheikh. It was only when i started my degree, when catholic students were mixed that it because noticable that there was some sort of artificial divide.

One girl near the time of graduation, on talking about what it was like to come to glasgow (she was from the east), said the thing she found strange was being asked waht school u come from to find out someones religion.

53

Pomodora,

Gravesend 18/05/2008 09:18:47
Does Wee Eck got to bed drunk and rise still drunk? The whole world is moving towards secular schooling and he is back in the nineteenth century confusing education with religion. He must frustrate his followers who have to answer for his many hair-brained schemes. He should follow the lead of Australia and France and insist that the best place to continue the practice of diverse culture is back in the land where it ws first learned. Smarten up Alex...and that might take some time.
54

JT,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 09:19:32
If people want faith schools bloody well pay for it themselves. Not a penny from the public purse should got to a school that wants to segregate itself from society. Dont ban them just make them pay for it! This goes for all sectors that want faith schools, after all the catholic church is not short of a bob or too. Also this would hinder intergration within society and whats to say that a Islamic school would teach children how to live acording to the law of the land or our language.
55

Stevie. G,

Las Vegas 18/05/2008 09:32:36
# 69
What a bunch of sillyness,segregate it's self from society,what are you talking about boy,public schooling comes from the Government,and always has where do you get SEGREGATING IT'S SELF FROM SOCIETY.
The language would be Gaelic then I take it.
I take it you are of Scottish blood,and know NOTHING OF THE HISTORY OF SCOTLAND.
56

Garry Otton,

SCOTTISH MEDIA MONITOR com 18/05/2008 09:33:22
Trouble is JT, if you check out secular.org you'll see that religion DOES have the money to fund them. The Church has rather a lot of money.

As for sectarian schools being better for kids. Studies have disproved this. They cherry-pick and charge higher fees. Parents can be very gullible.
57

Dk,

Broxburn 18/05/2008 09:52:00
It’s about time all these bigots’ and so called Christians took there heads out of the sand and started to compare the similarities between Islam and Christianity not the differences and welcomed the Muslims to our country. These people are no different from the many other immigrants to Scotland/Britain and given a true welcome they will integrate and add richness to our lives.
58

Dk,

Broxburn 18/05/2008 09:56:23
Now I am more than ever convinced to vote for Salmond
59

subrosa,

18/05/2008 10:25:47
# 73

I welcome all law abiding immigrants to my country. I don't agree with schools base on religion. Schools are for the formal education of reading, writing and arithmetic plus other academic subjects.

People can make choices but not all choices should be funded by the taxpayer. This is one of them.
60

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 18/05/2008 10:37:16
This is very, very wrong. I was brought up a catholic and am an SNP supporter but object very strongly to this policy. The governmment should be moving Scotland towards secular education and pulling back on funnding separate catholic schools. If any group wants religious based education, they shold raise the funds themselves.

We should not be funding archaisc belief systems just because their adherents are voters (naive, I know) bubt a radical government should be sponsoring the study of the rational not irrational belief which does little to take forward our country or foster understanding
61

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 10:37:45
The SNP have just lost my vote. Shame I had thought Independence would be a good thing. The problem is who do I vote for now? Perhaps I should make plans to move to Australia or France. I'm fed-up feeling like a foreigner in what I thought was my home country. Would Muslim Schools in Scotland mean more Muslims moving here?
Buddist Schools would be a different matter, I would be all for that. I'm in favour of 'peace and love' and totally opposed to 'war and hate'.
Bye-Bye Alex Salmond you are not as wise as I thought you were.
62

Dk,

Broxburn 18/05/2008 10:47:55
#76 “Religion” is a subject and if we taught about all religions in school we would have a better understanding of each other. I was at a catholic school that taught tolerance for other religions.

The taxpayer funds war better to fund education of all kinds
63

Hamartia,

Islamisbad 18/05/2008 10:57:59
Islam needs to be reclassified as a cult. It is a dangerous construct for mind control. They get them at birth and bring them up on prayers five times a day. If that is not brainwashing, I don't know what is. They're either praying, coming back from praying, planning on going to pray next,getting washed and taking off their jewellery for the next round... Five times a day - out of, say 16 hours awake, praying and planning to pray and going to pray and coming back from prayer must take at least 2 1/2 - three hours out of that. That is mind control by any definition.
64

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 11:00:14
The fact that an otherwise remarkably astute politician such as Salmond can make such a glaring error of judgement is a testament to the intellectually debilitating influence of religion.

Step back from the brink, Alex! A modern, enlightened nation demands secular schools. Put religion back in the temples and asylums where it belongs! Keep the pedlars of ignorance and superstition away from our children!
65

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 11:03:32
#73
What happens when the immigrants out number the indigenous population? And these immigrants do not know the laws of the land and do not even speak the language. They all have different religious beliefs and cultures and want separate schools, churches, libraries, health centres etc etc etc. We're not far off that scenario! Would you still be as welcoming?

#76
Religion seems to be the root of most wars - so perhaps we should stop teaching religion then the taxpayers money that we currently spend on war could be spent on a providing children with a good basic education.
66

bluehead,

edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:24:53
stop being a smart Alex we know Alex salmond is a very fly guy,but sometimes he outsmarts himself
to gain independence Alex Salmond will need more than foxy gunning's, better to use some straight thinking
67

Hanz,

logtastica 18/05/2008 11:25:23
I am all for this hopefully by building these faith schools the SNP can get Scottish muslims on their side for a vote for independence. With further encouragement Salmond can encourage all the Muslims south of the border to move up to Scotland and he is guaranteed to win his referendum. But you never know the agenda can change so Scotland might become the first Islamic state in Europe.
68

bluehead,

edinburgh 18/05/2008 11:27:33
stop being a smart Alex we know Alex salmond is a very fly guy,but sometimes he outsmarts himself
to gain independence Alex Salmond will need more than foxy cunning's, better to use some straight thinking
69

Dk,

Broxburn 18/05/2008 11:31:15
#82 Yes most definitely. Your fears are completely founded on a lack of understanding. Symptomatic of the insularity and small mindedness of so many people in this country. The more diverse a society the more understanding will be the outcome.

War is a result of a lack of true religious practice
70

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 11:38:47
# 86 I don't believe you!!!
71

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 11:39:34
#82 DK Broxburn

I don't believe you!
72

Dk,

Broxburn 18/05/2008 11:57:09
I am not asking you to belive me just to look at the biger picture and open your mind
73

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 12:01:45
#82 MoiraMac

Calm down Moira! Governments can't stop religion.

P.S. Please expound on the bit about libraries. I am eagar to know...
74

Capn Andy,

Glasgow. 18/05/2008 12:02:02
Personally I'm for integration in edecation, not segregation.
Alex. This will lose you any election, and end our hopes of independence.
75

,

18/05/2008 12:02:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
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76

Capn Andy,

Glasgow. 18/05/2008 12:03:06
#91.
Ooops, Its 'education'.
77

John S,

18/05/2008 12:10:36
I disagree with Alex Salmond on this one, you are wrong so don't rock the boat.
Faith schools do create divisions within a country. Surely if Christians and non Christians attend the same schools they would foster a better tolerance and understanding between religions from an early age.
All state schools should be secular and religious schools privately funded.

Malmø, Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmø, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish.
A state funded school in Malmo has decided to have arabic as first language! This must be unique in the western world.September 9, 2004
Ok this will never happen in Scotland but ............
78

He needs help!,

Angus 18/05/2008 12:42:23
This is a mistake - as with the majority of Posters, I am not in support of separate religious schools of any denomination. You cannot stop religion and we do need to educate our children but I don't see why the two have to be done under the same roof. Bringing young children together will help them learn that there are other religions in the world and to be tolerant of them.
79

,

18/05/2008 12:53:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
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80

RWHANKS,

Aberdeen 18/05/2008 13:00:00
Brilliant!!! Just lay the cornerstone down in let's say... Carlisle - New Castle, or better yet London! I hear it's a beautiful sight looking east over the Thames!
81

weewumman,

Glaswegian in Bristol 18/05/2008 13:07:23
When are SMP's going to get it?

Instill separatism in children at five years old and reap the crop of racism by the time they have reached their teens!

C'mon Salmond - I expect better from a fellow Scot!
82

RWHANKS,

Aberdeen 18/05/2008 13:07:43
Before you know it their will be a bleedin' "mosque" at the center of Edinburgh! GOD save us.
83

RWHANKS,

Aberdeen 18/05/2008 13:10:03
If it reaches as far as Angus, I'll have no problem going to Orkney, Skye or even Canada.
84

Lady inwaiting,

Glenrothes 18/05/2008 13:19:08
NO NO NO NO !!!!!!!!
85

Wee Beardie,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:35:56
No, Alex. I'm an SNP voter but you have got this wrong.

Scotland, with its shameful sectarianism, is the last place where children should be separated on grounds of religion.

This is not an occasion for political expediency. And I believe you are out of step with the majority of SNP supporters.

Let's have a referendum on this.


86

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 13:36:09
Tin Man

Is there something specific you want to know about libraries or are you just getting your rocks off by trying to be smart?
87

little scouse on the prarie,

Spring 18/05/2008 13:50:13
Are there any Moslem countries where the schools turn out students equipped for the modern world??
What technology has been developed in Moslem countries in the last eight hundred years??
Do you want your Scots Moslems to have expertise in the barbarity of the Middle Ages, but not be able compete with their peers in the twnty first century??
Good luck, another pitiful idea from the loony left.
88

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 18/05/2008 13:50:32
If no one from SNP HQ is reading this, they should. Salmond really needs to think this one through again and put rationality and non-sectarianism at the heart of his agenda, not pandering to the muslim vote - it's too important an issue to get wrong. I don't want an independent Scotland to retain all its old warts.
89

Alasdair Roy,

Aberdeen 18/05/2008 13:57:43
This is a foolish stance for Alex Salmond to take and is his first serious mistake as First Minister. I say this with some regret as a long standing member of his party. Islam (or Mohammedanism as it was more accurately known previously) is no more than a primitive totalitarian system with religious accretions. The number of cases involving its foot soldiers which are presently clogging up the British courts is sufficient testimony to its malevolence.

The state has no duty to sustain this pernicious doctrine and arguments on the basis of consistency with the treatment of other creeds do us no favours. For as Ralph Waldo Emerson famously said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

Come on SNP members and Scotsman readers --- write in to Alex Salmond and help exorcise this particular hobgoblin from his world view. Help save Scotland and the West from the encroachments of Mohammedanism.
90

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 18/05/2008 14:05:36
This will be a huge mistake from Alex Salmond.

After seeing the rampaging bigots in Manchester I am more convinced than ever that we have to get sectariansim out of Scotland.

That includes fazing out religious schools. It will be difficult but it has gone on too long.

There will be a huge political backlash against state funded Muslin schools and I agree with Osama Bin Liner. I hope HQ are reading these comments!
91

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 14:10:13
There are very sound rational arguments against Salmond's stance on faith schools. The hateful sectarianism of bigots such as Alasdair Roy only serves to undermine these arguments and bring into disrepute what should be a reasoned case for strictly secular schools.
92

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:20:28
If this School teaches true Islamic doctrine then surely it is a step in the right direction by taking away the element of Islamic fundamentalism being taught to youngsters by fundamentalist individuals??
If the school on the other hand is going to teach Islamic fundamentalism and extremist doctrine then it should be opposed.
Obviously the reaction to this shouldnt be knee jerk but details of its purpose and aims should be made available before a sensationalist press gives the story a provocative bias in order to sell papers or stir up anti Islamic rhetoric as seen above.
The reactions above are just typical reactionary biggotry so prevelant in this country to anything different.
93

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:33:38
108

The biggest Federations in the world are all multicultural how can you be a federalist and not support multiculturism??
94

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 18/05/2008 14:37:58
An absolutely disastrous idea. Close to home, N.I. will take decades to dismantle the legacy of segregated education, and that's just Catholic and Protestant. Elsewhere in the world, Islamic schools have led to disaster; Saudi Arabia has always had a system of religious education, which hardly mattered before globalisation but is now instrumental in stoking Wahabbi hatred not just for infidels, but for other Muslims too. Pakistan introduced 'madrassas' in the late 1970s and the legacy is being borne-out today in the form of religious fanaticism which is being exported world-wide
95

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 14:46:01
114 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
If this School teaches true Islamic doctrine then surely it is a step in the right direction...

------------

There is no such thing as good religious indoctrination of children.
96

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:46:44
116

Why disastrous?? the proof is in the pudding. I dont believe an Islamic school set up anywhere in the UK will be allowed to preach Islamic extremism or to recruit youngsters to terror groups in fact its more likely to be the exact opposite. A proper run school can wean youngsters away from potential extremism and terrorism. Like I said knee jerk biggoted responses without looking at the details or the facts.
97

Mary Ann Fraser, of Lovat, Sawant,

USA 18/05/2008 14:48:50
I hate to state that "I told You so", but here is a good example how Salmond will not only break up the U.K. but also break up Scotland.

Forget religion, just concentrate on getting along in your schools, and that will help society.
98

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:50:47
117

Yes I understand that argument but then you have to take it further and forbid parents from taking their kids to church or the Mosque or the Synogoge until they are old enough to make an informed choice on religious faith.
You have to stop Catholics from baptism until the age of consent. It goes a lot deaper than banning religious schools.
99

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 14:51:43
#107 Moira Mac

"They all have different religious beliefs and cultures and want separate schools, churches, libraries,"

I just wanted to know who is planning to segregate my library, that's all. Not trying to be clever - I will leave that to you. But I do like my library.
100

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:52:18
119

Break up Scotland?? doesnt the US have religious schools then?? Methodist, Baptist, Jewish etc etc
When did the US break up then??
101

Moder8,

EDINBURGH 18/05/2008 14:53:58
Wrong route Mr Salmond.
All schools should be non Religeous and non political.No indoctrination of any sort.
102

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:55:56
123

Like I said if you ban religious schools on those grounds you have to ban the entire religion on the same grounds and have no official religious faiths at all.
103

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 14:57:49
120 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
Yes I understand that argument but then you have to take it further and forbid parents from taking their kids to church or the Mosque or the Synogoge...

------------

Non sequitur. The state legislates what happens in schools. Not what happens in people's homes.
104

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 14:59:31
125

Wrong you are subject to the state laws even in yer ain hame you cannot preach religious hatred from the safety of your hoose now can ye??
105

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:01:03
124 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
...and have no official religious faiths at all.

------------

What constitutes an "official" religious faith?

Why should keeping religion out of schools necessarily imply "banning" religion?
106

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:04:33
126 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Wrong you are subject to the state laws even in yer ain hame you cannot preach religious hatred from the safety of your hoose now can ye??

---------

But that is not what you said. You said that making schools secular would mean that we would also have to "forbid parents from taking their kids to church or the Mosque or the Synogoge". You have yet to explain why the latter should follow from the former.
107

BA humbug,

Pollokshields... 18/05/2008 15:04:36
"Hindering integration"! WHAT integration?
108

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 15:06:31
#107 Moira Mac

People with different religous beliefs want seperate churches? And you have a problem with that?
109

Garry Otton,

SCOTTISH MEDIA MONITOR com 18/05/2008 15:07:00
#78 The Greens are the only major political Party promising NOT to award religion special privileges.

Alex Salmond has already promised in a lecture in the name of one of Scotland's most famous homophobes that not only will he encourage more sectarian and Islamic schools (so-called 'Faith' schools). He even chastised secularists - and presumably secular schools promoting reason over superstition - for not recognising the superiority of religionists' over secular values in education.
110

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:07:07
127

I thought the issue was about not indocrinating our young into any religion hence the problem with religious schools. I am saying you can still indocrinate our youngsters without religious schools by taking them to church, the mosque or the Synogogue so if you want to ban religious schools on the grounds of indocrination then you have to ban them from other religious influences as well at least until they are old enough to make an informed choice.
Official religious faiths are the mainstream faiths unofficial faiths are the splinter faiths that are derived from them ie Catholism Protestant Shia zionism etc.
111

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:08:19
128

"But that is not what you said. You said that making schools secular would mean that we would also have to "forbid parents from taking their kids to church or the Mosque or the Synogoge". You have yet to explain why the latter should follow from the former."

Why dont you cut and paste where I said that and we can take it from there.
112

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:10:32
Let me make this clear. I see cultural diversity as a strength in our society and not a flaw. While I utterly reject all forms of religious faith, I am content to that others should be free to pursue the folly of their choice.

SO LONG AS THAT FOLLY IS HARMLESS!

The folly of religion ceases to be harmless when it is imposed on impressionable young minds. The pedlars of superstitious fear must be turned out of our schools.
113

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:12:45
133 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Why dont you cut and paste where I said that and we can take it from there.

------------

I just did. Twice!
114

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:13:17
134

Any indocrination can be harmful and impressed onto youngsters not just religious.
Anti religious indocrination for example.
115

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:14:13
135

Are you trying to be a f*cking tube or what??
116

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:18:18
136 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Any indocrination can be harmful and impressed onto youngsters not just religious.

------------

If this is supposed to be a defence of religious teaching in schools then it is the weakest I have ever seen. If you know of any schools where these mysterious other forms of indoctrination are taking place please provide details. I, in turn, will publish a list of all the schools where religion intrudes on education. Guess whose list will be longest.
117

Jock Smith,

Waukesha 18/05/2008 15:18:51
Secular schools are the way to go, If you need religous education, GO TO CHURCH, they are badly in need of people.
As an SNP supporter for many years, if this goes through, I will not be voting SNP again.
118

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:20:22
137 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Are you trying to be a f*cking tube or what??

------------

This would be in contrast to the effortless ease of you own achievements in this area.
119

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:25:25
140

I do however have the honesty and integrity to bow to experiance.
120

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:26:09
139

Nothing to do with being a bigot though eh??
121

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:30:24
141 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
I do however have the honesty and integrity to bow to experiance.

------------

But not, it appears, the ability to defend your own arguments. Or even to remember what they were!

But perhaps it was my mistake. I briefly thought you might have a valid point to make.
122

Alfred E. Neuman,

18/05/2008 15:31:31
I went to Sunday School as a child.

But that is not good enough for many muslims and catholics. It is not just the faith, it is the complete and utter rejection of our society, they don't want atheists and their freedoms, including dress sense and dating anywhere near them or their offspring.

They utterly reject freedoms we instill in our youth, the right to challenge authority, be it government, teachers or parents.

The ethnic minority rejects the ethnic majorities rights to exist peacefully alongside them. The only difference, is that when a member of the ethnic majority comments negatively against the values of the minority it is racist, but when it is in reverse, it is understandable they can reject and denounce the ethnic majorities beliefs.

Salmond knows this, he wants to turn the rejection of Britain's ethnic majority values into a vote winner for independence.

When the BNP win white ethnic votes by playing to their segregation agenda it is racism, when Salmond wins muslim votes through preaching segregation and rejection of British values it is still racism, I hope someone has the balls to point this out to him in the mainstream media.
123

Evia,

18/05/2008 15:35:48
No, Alex Salmond, this is about the worst thing that can happen. Keep all religion out of schools.

Apart from anything else, I am fed up with politicians bending over backwards to please Muslims. I don't want to live in a multicultural Scotland. Scotland is Christian and others should be forced to integrate.

Religion is for the churches and the home. Keep it out of schools. Get rid of all faith schools now.
124

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:37:39
143

Ok ya sh*t stirring wee troll I will bite this once.
Why dont you point out the post where I wrote or implied:

133
"You said that making schools secular would mean that we would also have to "forbid parents from taking their kids to church or the Mosque or the Synogoge"."
125

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:39:58
144

And you are giving us the facts on the entire Islamic faith and everybody who worships within it eh??
Never mind the fact that you have been indocrinated into the faith of your parents choice.
126

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:40:41
145 Evia
Scotland is Christian and others should be forced to integrate.

---------

Religion is a human folly. People have religion. Countries do not.

The idea of "forced" integration will be anathema to most people outside the ranks of the rabid right.
127

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:42:00
145

You would rather they bent over backwards to please Christians and zionists instead??
128

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:43:46
145

I dont want to be force integrated into anything within Scotland and neither should you.
129

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:45:38
145

How can religion only be for churches and the home and not schools or anywhere else for that matter?? do you keep your faith in a box under the stairs in yer hoose take it out and carry it to church on Sundays??
130

Alfred E. Neuman,

18/05/2008 15:45:49
147 Foulkes

People who send their children to Muslim only schools ispo facto don't want their children around non-Muslims.

I am an atheist these days, I went to an ordinary school and learned about all religions and sciences, I found scientific method the most interesting and challenging in school and have continued study of the sciences as an adult.

Religious schools have no place in our society, children get lots of holidays for which their parents/church can pay for bible camp and so on.

Salmond is playing a dangerous game by playing to an audience who denounce the ethnic majority's rights to co-exist in the same schools.

Don't try and say it is me that is racist, I am not the one rejecting ethnicity, you are, Salmond is, the SNP are, they are rejecting the ethnic majority's right to use publicly funded services.

Disgusting.

Muslims/catholic only water fountains in religious family parks soon.

Pathetic.

The ethnic majority have rights too.
131

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 15:50:19
#130 Tin Man

Are you stalking me you radge?
132

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

18/05/2008 15:50:23
152
"People who send their children to Muslim only schools ispo facto don't want their children around non-Muslims"

Really?? and every Muslim on the planet has informed you of this fact?? How did you manage to get the question out to so many and who did yer translations??

Do the ethnic majority have the right to dictate policy to the ethnic minorities then?? as for example the English do for the Scots??
133

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 15:51:14
151 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
How can religion only be for churches and the home and not schools or anywhere else for that matter??

------

Because, as most people will readily accept, children require particular consideration and protection. And - brace yourself for this! - schools tend to be full of children!
134

Alfred E. Neuman,

18/05/2008 15:53:15
154 Foulkes

You are an idiot and a failure of a wannabe sohpist, your stupidity is simply astonishing.

Why don't you tell me how you reconcile denying someone access to publicly funded service on account of their ethnicity? (ie being christian)

Your talk of world wide plantery population and surveys is more that a little stupid you idiot.
135

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:53:32
155

So do most homes and streets and shops. should we ban any mention of religion everywhere kids could find themselves for any length of time??
136

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 15:55:03
156

If you say so

"Why don't you tell me how you reconcile denying someone access to publicly funded service on account of their ethnicity? (ie being christian)"

Why dont you tell me where I said, posted or implied that then??
137

,

18/05/2008 15:59:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
138

Alfred E. Neuman,

18/05/2008 15:59:29
158 Foulkes

Your an idiot and a racist.

Sphists should at least be able to form correct analogies and have some simple understanding of rhetoric.

Asking random questions with two question marks is just idiotic, please don't write to me again.
139

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 16:00:24
157 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
So do most homes and streets and shops...

------------

There can be little hope for a mind unable to make the distinction between a school and a street.
140

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:00:53
State support for religious schools is an outrage. If the government paid for quackery instead of evidence-based medicine, we would sack the cabinet and ridicule the politicians involved. Anyone who has studied religions properly concludes that they are all mere superstitions that have grown out of control; the human mind offers a garden to be cultivated, but religion is a rank weed that chokes the flowers of reason. The threat of supernatural punishment was designed to impose order upon backward, uneducated nations, and it is to such societies that religion must be consigned. As far as I am concerned, spending taxpayers’ money to indoctrinate children with superstition is immoral and criminal. From this moment forward I refuse to pay that portion of my tax that is spent upon supporting religious schools, even if I am to be sentenced to prison as a result. I will reduce my council tax payment accordingly, and I call on all thinking Scots to do the same until state support for religious schools is abolished.
141

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:03:46
161

I take it you never learned anything from playing outside as a child then?? I take it you were never influenced by anything outside of a Schoolyard then??
142

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:07:46
It is an abomination that tax is used by the government to support the brainwashing of children with superstitious mumbo-jumbo. If the SNP stands for such an obnoxious policy that is against the tide of secularism, then I refuse to support it. The time and money wasted on inculcating the wonderful, clean minds of children with supernatural filth would be much better spent on teaching personal and civil duties and rights.
143

,

18/05/2008 16:08:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
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144

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:08:10
159

Nope I would rather they bent over backwards to please me but thats just wishful thinking.

160

We are all rasicts and bigots we're judged on our abiltity and level of control over our racism and biggotry you have obviously lost yours altogether.
I will make a deal with you if you stop posting idiotic p*sh I wont comment on it anymore.
145

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 16:08:58
# 149
I think they will bend over backwards to get votes. Winning is the name of the game! However in this case I think they have shot themselves in the foot!

# 145 I agree with you whole heartedly. Pay no attention to the nit-picking muppets on this forum.
146

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 16:11:04
163 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
I take it you never learned anything from playing outside as a child then??

------------

Let me try to help you here. Schools are community institutions designated for the formal education of children. In contrast to "outside", which is... not.
147

Becket Saunders,

Texas, USA 18/05/2008 16:12:49
The suicide of the UK clearly described above:

"Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow. While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border, both private and state-supported . . .

A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the idea. The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools are a good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. "
148

MoiraMac,

18/05/2008 16:13:08
# 165

That's a seriously dopey question! Are you asking me if I am a lawyer or if I know enough about the law to keep me out of trouble on a daily basis?

I reckon you know exactly what I meant and you are just being another nit-picking muppet.
149

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:13:26
162

Religions are supposed to be non profit making organisations set up to give spiritual guidance and a focus for faith now how do you suggest a non profit making body should fund itself?? are you suggesting religions should seek to become businesses and profitable organisations in spite of their fundamental beliefs???
150

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 18/05/2008 16:13:34
Caora Dubh said: "If the government paid for quackery instead of evidence-based medicine, we would sack the cabinet and ridicule the politicians involved."

Too late! They already do. There are five NHS-funded homoeopathic hospitals, including one in Glasgow.

I do agree with much else of what you say, particularly your aim of getting rid of the state funding of segregating schools. However, I'm not sure of the idea of withholding taxes: it might be better to write to your MSP and councillors and campaign for a secular state and vote accordingly at the next election.

Although possibly not representative of the general population, it's good to see the majority of posts here are against the state funding of religious-controlled schools.
151

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:16:54
If the government has to support religious schools, then should it not also be forced to support businesses that cannot support themselves? And surely if one of these hare-brained cults, be it Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam or any other superstition (and yes, I have read MANY books about Christianity and Islam, and have concluded they are all ultimately trash for the brainwashed omega minuses incapable of thought) is to be supported by the state, then why not Paganism, Satanism, Sun-worship, the worship of Quetzicoatl, and the cult invented last week by Duffie McDuff?
152

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:17:11
168

Ok so how does that stop children being indocrinated into religion outside of school?? arent children indocrinated before they are old enough to attend school??.
153

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 18/05/2008 16:18:37
Foulkes Off the CyberNat said: "Religions are supposed to be non profit making organisations set up to give spiritual guidance and a focus for faith now how do you suggest a non profit making body should fund itself??"

Non sequitur. Just because an organisation is non-profit making, does not mean it makes no money to sustain itself. Religions get lots of money from their flocks and they get tax relief and other benefits from us taxpayers. In fact, religions can be extremely wealthy - it's just that they don't like to advertise the fact and like us to think they are poor.
154

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 16:18:55
172 zeno
...it might be better to write to your MSP...

------------

Alex Salmond's email address is in the public domain.

Alex.Salmond.msp@scottish.parliament.uk

I have already told him how much I deplore his stance on faith schools. And I will continue to do so.
155

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:20:14
173

Why not indeed. Dont governments spend our money in more strange and bizarre ways anyway??
And by not spending money on Religious institutions are they not then encouraging non religious cults and athiest and agnostic beliefs??
156

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 16:22:53
174 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Ok so how does that stop children being indocrinated into religion outside of school?? arent children indocrinated before they are old enough to attend school??

------------

The state does not and should not legislate what parents teach their children. It does, quite rightly, legislate what is taught in schools. That children might be infected with religious delusion anyway does not in any way justify permitting this to happen in schools.
157

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 16:25:32
"We must have more of them - not a handful here and there, but hundreds, ultimately perhaps thousands, more," the Tories' Tim Collins says."

All the more reason why Salmond should distance himself from this madness.
158

,

18/05/2008 16:25:45
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Reason:
159

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:26:37
175

You missed the point completely of course.
No religion is non profit making in reality but why should it be funded only by privatisation and not with public funding??
160

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 18/05/2008 16:28:06
Moira Mac

I would agree that affiliating themselves with a particular religion is not really a good thing. I don't think that state schools should be religiously affiliated. However, the reality is that they alway have been, whether Catcholic, Protestant, or whatever, with the vasy majority being Protestant.

But if you have knowledge about religiously-seperated library's, as you claim, I would like to know. That would be a stap too far.
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18/05/2008 16:29:55
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Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:32:02
I am sick of religion and all that it causes, including the puerile drivel that falls from the mouths of religious "leaders" with regard to science that they neither understand, nor have the ability to understand. I've had enough of these charlatans, and reiterate that from now on I refuse to pay so much as a pence to support the indoctrination of Scottish children with superstitious claptrap, of any brand whatsoever. Religion has had its day. If the feeble-minded require it, then let them pay for their own religious indoctrination. I won't. And I am shocked that this government pays for alternative medicine, although it does tend to keep hypochondriacs and the mentally deficient out of the way of the real medical service. (As Prof Edzard Ernst says in "New Scentist" 26 April, there is evidence supporting the use of only 5% of all the alternative remedies now on offer in the UK. These are herbal remedies for a handful of conditions. There is no sound peer-reviewed scientific evidence supporting homeopathy, although homeopaths invent their own publications to lend themselves support. A woman who lived around me when I was a child died because she took homeopathic medicine instead of proper medical treatment for cancer. The homeopathic quack responsible was her own father. I hope is still suffering as a result.)
163

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:33:24
178

Yet it allows it to happen in church the Mosque or the Synogogue and in the street. It allows publically owned libraries to lend out religious books should this also be banned??
You either allow indocrination or you dont you cannot ban indocrination from A and allow it at B what would be the point?? the indocrination will still happen.
164

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:35:05
185

Fair enough but many people live by religious beliefs rightly or wrongly and its no for the likes o you and me to say they cant.
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18/05/2008 16:40:13
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 16:47:29
186 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

I accept that you are totally unable to comprehend that children, and therefore schools, are a special case. And I also now accept that you are unable to make any kind of distinction between what the state can/should legislate on and what it can't/shouldn't.

Since I am fairly confident that this confusion is not widespread, I won't trouble myself too much about it.
167

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:47:45
#187 Foulkes Off the CyberNat:

Yes, it IS for me to say that I don't want MY tax money paid to brainwash Scottish minors with supernatural stuff-and-nonsense. If people want to fill their children's heads with superstition, and to tell them that their particular brand of spiritualist idiocy is right, while all other bweliefs condemn the adherents to eternal fire or some such other torture inflicted by a brutal, sadistic god, then they must do it privately and at their own expense. Not mine.

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18/05/2008 16:48:29
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Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:52:22
#188 Ciderman: Roman Catholic schools are apartheid (apart-hate?!) schools. Anglican schools are apartheid schools. Presbyterian schools are apartheid schools. Islamic schools are apartheid schools. Jewish schools are apartheid schools.....They're all sectarian. They all brainwash innocent children with sectarianism. Disgusting.
170

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:52:29
190

Since when have you ever had a say in what your tax money is spent on??
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:54:17
189

A special case for what exactly?? by not giving religious instruction in school are you not pushing athiesm?? are you not therefore indocrinating children in non religious belief???
172

Fran,

USA 18/05/2008 16:55:32
We in the US have a strict seperation of church and state ,as we should have .We have private religious schools of every denomination .The state does not contribute any money to them . If parents wish their children to attend a religous school , they must pay for it .Christians are not allowed to have prayer in state supported schools here .I have heard of some northern schools that are making exceptions to this policy for their muslim students . I strongly disagree with this . The rules should apply across the board .If any other group does not like our rules , they should stay in their country of origin .
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18/05/2008 16:57:02
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Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/05/2008 16:57:25
#191 Ciderman: I can understand your point, which is that if everyone pays taxes, then people such as myself need not view our own taxes as paying for denominational schools. However, we pay into a common pool, so that it is also possible to view a portion of one's own taxes as being used to pay for denominational schools, i.e. to support a form of child indoctrination and apartheid. I cannot support a government that backs such a retrograde, backward policy.
175

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:57:28
195

Except when it comes to foreign policy and the invasion of Islamic countries it seems.
176

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 16:58:43
193

I am not a single issue voter.
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18/05/2008 16:58:57
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Becket Saunders,

Texas,USA 18/05/2008 16:59:51
I also see the vacuous, self-centered fools who have spewed idiocy here ( in re: should 'the govenrment' pay for religious schools ) to be perfectly equal to the fool who is paid to tax you into oblivion & destroy your schools.

Religion is NOT the issue. Islam is far from what we properly regard as a 'religion'.

It is a system of political agression-and will soon advance in all of the West, beyond mere attempts to control the education of children-it will soon openly subvert all cultural institutions, all legal systems, every social construct, and then it will ACT with open violence-against all who do not accept the new islamic controls.
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18/05/2008 17:00:52
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18/05/2008 17:01:48
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:02:13
202

Away and bile yer heid ya tube. You yersell have obviously been indocrinated to hate Islam a bit like the kettle calling the teapot black dont you think??
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:02:53
203

OOPs!
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18/05/2008 17:04:07
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:05:52
201

Isnt nominating the school the way you want it nondenominational or should schools be forced to be non denominational and therefore become nominational in that respect???
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18/05/2008 17:09:16
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:18:49
209

I am referring of course to those who make their own choices indocrination is another subject altogether.
And like I said if you ban faith schools on the basis of indocrination then you have to ban other places where a child can be indocrinated otherwise whats the point??
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18/05/2008 17:19:27
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tommy,

belfast uk 18/05/2008 17:22:35
At 113 the electric hermit accuses Alasdair Roy of hateful sectarianism for stating facts and at 114 Foulkes of the Cybernat states that its ok if it teaches true islamic doctrine (that will keep it out of the hands of fundamentalists)
Eh has attacked Alaistair Roy because he (EH) cannot face reality in his/her lib-left world and Foulkes has obviously no clue as to islamic doctrine -- pm erdogan of Turkey said The Term “Moderate Islam” Is Ugly And Offensive; There Is No Moderate Islam; Islam Is Islam

I would suggest that EH and Foulkes start learning about islam and its doctrines and keep their kafir dreams to themselves speaking of which
Kafir Dreams http://tinyurl.com/6kv4te .... this may give you both a thirst for true knowledge of islamic doctrine and not the twaddle like Mr Salmond believes and to even think that muslims can integrate into any society is delusion.
islamic faith schools-- NO NO NO
these guys keep telling us what they think of us but no one seems to hear
In the Hague on the ninth of april this year
With a view to developing understanding and respect for other cultures among children, primary school De Horizon regularly organises outings to various religious organisations. The chairman of the El Mouchidine mosque told the children from group 7 (aged 10) and their chaperones however that non-Muslims are dogs. http://tinyurl.com/6o4cnr
189

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 17:22:51
194 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
by not giving religious instruction in school are you not pushing athiesm??

------------

Complete nonsense, of course. Atheism is not an alternative to religion. It is the ABSENCE of religious belief. Atheism has no creed. So there is nothing to push.
190

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:27:51
214

You have been pushing athism all over this blog and so have quite a few others.

213

Why dont you explain to me what true Islamic doctrine is then??
And then maybe we will gain a clue as to your own indocrinated beliefs??
191

HolyRude,

18/05/2008 17:28:54
Foulkes Off the CyberNat #202

No need for indoctrination to make people feel ill at ease with Islam - you just need to watch the news and read the newspapers. I think you have to agree there is a problem. Calling us all racists and bigots will not make that go away. Not a good time to be discussing muslims schools. If we have the wrong impression of Muslims perhaps they should re-think their P.R. strategies.
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 17:29:46
213 tommy
The chairman of the El Mouchidine mosque told the children from group 7 (aged 10) and their chaperones however that non-Muslims are dogs.

---------

Which makes him as guilty of sectarian hate-mongering as yourself. Two of a kind. And neither should be allowed to taint rational discussion with their vile creed.
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18/05/2008 17:33:08
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 17:34:00
215 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
You have been pushing athism all over this blog and so have quite a few others.

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Reality check! I never so much as mentioned atheism. That was you. All I have been "pushing" is secular schools. In fact, I have quite explicitly stated that people should be free to embrace religious delusion if they so choose. Quite how that equates with your rather quaint notion of "pushing" atheism would be for you to explain.
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18/05/2008 17:36:19
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:36:34
216

We are all racists and biggots its a natural state of being like I said its how we control and direct our biggotry that defines us.
Watch what news and read what papers?? you are being indocrinated every single day by other peoples views and opinions presented as facts.
There is a serious problem in the world with truth and impartiality. All anybody can really go on is their own experiances and judgement and learn to take nothing for granted or as gospel without proof.
Safest way is to question absolutely everything especially if you want to believe it to be true.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:40:05
219

What is a secular school?? how does it become secular??
Dont all schools indocrinate??
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:44:36
223

If you force legislation to make all schools secular then they are no longer secular are they?? they have become state indocrinated and we become just another dictatorship.
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 17:45:49
222 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
What is a secular school??

-----------

It is difficult to see how you imagine you might have anything useful to say on this topic when you don't even know what "secular" means. Let me try to help you out yet again.

secular (adjective):
1. Of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations
2. Characteristic of or devoted to the temporal world as opposed to the spiritual world
3. Not concerned with or devoted to religion

[WordWeb]
200

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:46:25
Does anybody know if we have any publically funded Jewish schools in Scotland??
201

HolyRude,

18/05/2008 17:47:46
F. Off the CyberNuT #221

I certainly question everything you say!
You sound as if you want to indoctrinate me. Perhaps you would like to convince me that that there was no bombing at Glasgow Airport.
202

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:48:10
225

I didnt ask for the definition of secular I was asking for your definition of a secular school.
If I needed to find out the definition I could just as easily google it now stop avoiding the question.
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18/05/2008 17:50:52
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:51:24
228

Why would I want to convince you of that??
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:52:22
230

Why was the public funding of this School never discussed on these blogs??
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18/05/2008 17:53:21
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:53:29
232

Yep and that happens in or out of religious schools.
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zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 18/05/2008 17:54:17
Foulkes Off the CyberNat said: "What is a secular school?? how does it become secular??"

That's an easy one. A secular school is one that is neutral on religion: it neither favours nor disfavours any religion. It provides a religion-neutral environment that allows all children to be brought up in the religion their parents want for them without it either being supported or denigrated by schools.

This does NOT mean (as many religionists would like us to believe) that such a school and education would be devoid of values. Again, as many religionists would like us to believe, our shared values are not based on religion: they stand perfectly well on their own.

Religions need that favour and will fight to maintain the privileges they currently enjoy, but that is not the way forward for an open, fair, tolerant, democratic and diverse society.
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 17:54:41
229 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
I didnt ask for the definition of secular I was asking for your definition of a secular school.

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This is just plain silly. The definition of a secular school is "a school which is secular". If you know what a school is and you have a definition of the term "secular", as you now do, then you should have no need to be perplexed about what a secular school is.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 17:54:44
234

That question is open to everybody.
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David Nisbet,

Kirkintilloch 18/05/2008 17:59:48
I've been a supporter of the SNP for some time now but if this is the direction they're going in (supporting terrorism) they can kiss my ---- if they want me to vote for them again.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:00:40
238

So really the difference between a religious school and a secular school is that one teaches a specific religion within its curriculum and the other can teach all religions within its curriculum and people have a problem with this??
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18/05/2008 18:00:47
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:02:44
234 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
Why was the public funding of this School never discussed on these blogs??

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Probably because the public funding of faith schools has hitherto been generally accepted as a fact of life. As you will have noted from the vast majority of the posts here, there are a great many people who are now prepared to stand up and challenge this status quo.

Speaking personally, I look to the SNP to be a force for political and social reform. I neither expect nor appreciate the leader of the SNP announcing his support for a situation which harks back to primitive superstition and the mediaeval domination of society by cliques of priests.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:03:01
242

Supporting the funding of a religious school is supporting terrorism?? and you had no problem with state funding of catholic schools during the IRA terror campaign??
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:05:50
243 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
So really the difference between a religious school and a secular school is that one teaches a specific religion within its curriculum and the other can teach all religions within its curriculum...

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You still haven't grasped this. A secular school may teach ABOUT religion. It does NOT teach religion. It does not seek to inculcate religious doctrine of any kind.
217

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:06:19
245

Ah so now its a Islamic school looking for public funding it shouldnt be accepted as a fact of life??
And it becomes headline news.
I take it then you are against the public funding of the Jewish primary school in Glasgow??
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18/05/2008 18:06:34
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:08:40
247

I said CAN TEACH not DOES teach are you saying secular schools forbid the teaching of religions??
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:09:21
249

Most what happens??
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Joseph Bailey,

Maryville, Tennessee, USA 18/05/2008 18:11:26
I would think that this plan is not very wise. Islam may be a religion that Muslims need and tat should be respected but why would Scotland fund an Islamic school? Unwise and shortsighted.
222

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:12:56
252

Why not when it funds Christian and Jewish religious schools??
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18/05/2008 18:14:02
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tommy,

belfast uk 18/05/2008 18:15:19
To 217 ELECTRIC HERMIT
I wrote at213 The chairman of the El Mouchidine mosque told the children from group 7 (aged 10) and their chaperones however that non-Muslims are dogs.
.....................................................

you replied @217

Which makes him as guilty of sectarian hate-mongering as yourself. Two of a kind. And neither should be allowed to taint rational discussion with their vile creed.
........................................................
.......................................................
So sorry but he was quoting the koran -7:176. (Yusuf Ali)- are you saying that the koran is sectarian hatemongering and also a vile creed
You see it is you who are irrational and it is not my vile creed if you need any more of what islam thinks of you from respected sources-post again-personally I would spend my time actually reading the koran and hadiths freely available on the internet for the intelligent to study
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:15:21
254

It will be if Scotland is found to be full of religious bigots and zionist zealots.
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18/05/2008 18:15:49
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:18:30
255

Idiot boy all religious texts are full fire brimstone death destruction conflict bigotry incest doom and gloom ye cannae judge todays Muslim by whats written in a text hundreds of years old anymore than you can judge a Christian or Jew.
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:18:56
250 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
I said CAN TEACH not DOES teach are you saying secular schools forbid the teaching of religions??

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How difficult can this be? Faith schools are devoted to a particular religion. What they teach is defined by the tenets of that religion. Thus, Christian schools teach the pernicious nonsense of creationism. While Islamic and Jewish schools have their own particular brand of superstitious claptrap.

Secular schools do not use any religion as a basis for teaching. There is no "worship". They may tell students about various religions. But they do so strictly in terms of education.
229

tommy,

belfast uk 18/05/2008 18:18:57
Meanwhile I dont have an update on this
Slightly off topic but relevant to allowing islamic faith schools and the attitudes that may be taught
We the UK are sending aid to pakistan to the tune of millions (100 of them last year ) and it is hoped to double it in the next four years. Food has become so expensive that the poverty stricken cannot afford it so a scheme has been started by the pakistani government(contributed to by all taxpayers)to offer savings on five basic foods to over 6 million of pakistans poorest people It allows low income groups to get essential food items from specific,
government-backed stores for 25% to
40% less than the normal cost
but only muslims are elegible,Christians and others are ineligible
Lets hope this islamic discriminatory system can be changed
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18/05/2008 18:19:36
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18/05/2008 18:20:47
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:23:26
259

In other words they present THEIR OWN VIEW ON RELIGION as opposed to a religious view on religion and that isnt a form of religious indocrination then??
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18/05/2008 18:23:59
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:24:18
#255 tommy

As you have very amply demonstrated, you are far from qualified to tell anyone what I am saying. Despite your pathetically feeble attempt to twist things, I doubt that anyone is in any doubt about what I actually said.

For your own edification I will reiterate. There is no difference whatever between your own sectarian hate-mongering and that of the other religious nutter you choose to quote.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:27:32
Does anybody else agree that the only issue and reason why this subject is under discussion is because the school in question is Islamic and would never have made headlines if it had been any other religion involved??
236

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:28:10
263 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
In other words they present THEIR OWN VIEW ON RELIGION as opposed to a religious view on religion and that isnt a form of religious indocrination then??

------------

Now I know that you are a troll. Although it is still difficult to see what anyone would gain by pretending to be so dense.

As has been made abundantly clear, in terms accessible to the average nine-year old, secular schools do not seek to impart any "view on religion". What they teach, they teach in a strictly objective manner.
237

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:28:13
261

Exactly you have lost the plot.
238

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 18/05/2008 18:28:33
Ciderman

You infer that those who want secular shooling are in some way attached to the mobs in Manchester and are sectarian and anti-catholic. I think your attitude reveals a lot about your own prejudices.

I said that I would like to see a move towards all secular schools. That means merging schools and joint-campuses - something that has started happening already.

Catholic schools were fine in the past and meant non-denominational schools were kept essentailly protestant.

Those days are past and we should accept that there is now no need to divide our children. To say that division of schooling doesn't help fuel sectarianism is niaive.

Alex Salmond will be taking Scotland in the wrong direction if he backs Muslin schools. He's no daft though and I hope this stupid idea will be quietly forgotten.
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18/05/2008 18:29:56
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:30:53
267

So I ask you again do secular schools FORBID the teaching of religion and if so isnt that a form of religious indocrination and if they dont then what is the problem with having Schools which teach a specific religions setting up next to schools able to teach all religions???
241

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:33:11
266 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
Does anybody else agree that the only issue and reason why this subject is under discussion is because the school in question is Islamic and would never have made headlines if it had been any other religion involved??

----------

Wrong again! If you look around the web you will find numerous discussions relating to Christian fundamentalist faith schools in England. There are no such schools in Scotland at the moment. Sane people want to keep it that way.
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18/05/2008 18:33:43
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18/05/2008 18:34:59
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:36:34
272

I am not on about what you can find on the web I am questioning why this is Media news and a topic of discussion on a newspaper forum when it never made headlines with the introduction of a Jewish state funded school nor even Catholic state funded school.
Like you pointed out until now it was taken for granted.
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18/05/2008 18:38:27
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:40:59
273

Who said the Ranger supporters causing the trouble where Scots?? the one hundred thousand supporters in Manchester didnt all come from Scotland.
It would be nice to get the full details of all the radges charged with offences.
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18/05/2008 18:41:53
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:42:09
276

Very shallow and transparent get back on track or move on I really dont care which.
249

tommy,

belfast uk 18/05/2008 18:50:00
to 258 Foulkes
Quote..ye cannae judge todays Muslim by whats written in a text hundreds of years old..Unquote

As this text governs their actions I am afraid we must--even osama is guided by them and I have yet to see any valid denunciation of osama's quotations --
That is why an islamic faith school is a dangerous beast

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18/05/2008 18:51:34
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18/05/2008 18:52:20
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 18:52:45
275 Foulkes Off the CyberNat

I'm going to take a wild guess and say it might be something to do with the fact that Alex Salmond is First Minister of the Scottish government.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:52:53
269

"Alex Salmond will be taking Scotland in the wrong direction if he backs Muslin schools. He's no daft though and I hope this stupid idea will be quietly forgotten."

He wont be taking Scotland in the wrong direction by this but he will however expose Scotlands underbelly of religious bigotry and anti Islamic media indocrination. The SNP may pay a penalty for this if most Scots have been indocrinated into this Islamaphobia sweeping through the West on the propaganda trying to justify illegal invasions of sovereign territories.
It will be a wake up call on the state of Scotlands conscience.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:54:23
283

And if it had been another FM it wouldnt be news??
This wouldnt have been news before the last election??
255

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 18:56:40
281

You have made no sense in you arguement under discussion I am looking for clarity and you cant provide it ergo you have lost the plot now clarify or move on like I said I really dont care which.
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Publius,

Girvan 18/05/2008 18:57:44
Couple of points.
(1) I think Scotland already has at least one independent Moslem school - Imam Muhammad Zakariya School - in Dundee...but perhaps I'm mistaken.
(2) If it's OK to have state-funded RC schools (or any other denomination), then it's OK to have a state-funded school. Alex is right to grasp this nettle.
257

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:00:01
285 Foulkes Off the CyberNat
This wouldnt have been news before the last election??

----------

It was.
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:01:03
287

He is certainly morally right but it may be a political miscalculation or at least a gamble.
The media have stirred up a hell of a lot of anti islamic feeling which is why the union press and parties are trying to link the SNP to as much Islamic stories as they can.
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18/05/2008 19:01:07
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:02:15
288

Then it has b*gger all to do with AS being FM then so it must be the Islamic angle dont you think??
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18/05/2008 19:04:25
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:07:38
291 Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
Then it has b*gger all to do with AS being FM then so it must be the Islamic angle dont you think??

------------

How can it possibly have "b*gger all to do with AS being FM"? His being FM obviously makes him more newsworthy. And the fact that it is an Islamic school is of significance only to sectarian bigots. For the rest of us, it is the fact that it is a faith school which is the only relevant fact.
263

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:08:32
280

Rubbish Islamic political leaders use Islam as their means of control in the same way as our leaders use capitalism in place of the religion they used in the past.
Whether the form of control is religious doctrine or political doctrine makes absolutely no difference at all its all control of the many by the few.
I bet youre one of the indocrinated who believes the use of our armed forces abroad is a righteous thing and not a political thing.
264

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18/05/2008 19:09:48
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:10:19
293

Cr*p and you know it when was the last discussion or news worthy story on the funding of religious schools in the media??
266

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18/05/2008 19:11:10
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18/05/2008 19:13:33
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Publius,

Girvan 18/05/2008 19:13:54
Last thought before I drive down to London for the week.
The quality of education in some state-schools is poor. There are two possible ways to address this. One way is through extendng parental choice in the hope that parents will choose good schools and bad ones will go the wall. This is the approach of the English. Major experimented with city technology schools; Blair backpedalled for a while and then went for city academies and specialised technology colleges. Denominational schools fit well into this model. The Tories propose to extend the principle of choice.
The other way is through the hands-on promotion of excellence by the state. This was the way which gave Scotland a head start over England and other European countries - a start that last for a couple of hundred years. This way has no place for denominational schools. It suggests they should be phased out.
Scotland should choose one way or the other. Alex is being honest to himself, but, as a product of traditional Scottish Academy, I inclined to the second way.
269

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:14:04
292

There is supposed to be a UK wide organisation of football thugs.
This is exactly the venue they would thrive on and it would be hard for the UK police forces to keep the known thugs under observation within the UK.
There is more to this than meets the eye or what the media prints.
Its funny how Rangers managed to get through all of their other Euro games both home and away without trouble.
270

HolyRude,

18/05/2008 19:14:56
F Off the CynerNut

You've certainly go them all going, I'll give you that.
271

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:15:19
298

Yet I dont ever remember hearing or seeing a news story about the funding of the Jewish school in Glasgow. Funny that isnt that news worthy then or contentious??
272

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:16:28
301

Just taking a point of view I am actually agnostic myself.
273

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18/05/2008 19:16:37
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:18:32
297

I still need you to clarify what it is you printed above cos it dont make sense in its present form now quit harping on about it clarify it or move on.
275

tommy,

belfast uk 18/05/2008 19:20:06
To 265 ELECTRIC HERMIT
I do object to being called sectarian and hate-mongering-

When I see a reply like that you are obviously in denial but dont feel too bad there are many idiots in this once great country that share your ignorance - this is probably due to labours failed educational policy

I have always wondered just what type of person is at the rear of the pantomime horse ..... you know the type that blindly goes where it is lead------ Thankyou
276

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 18/05/2008 19:21:16
Scotland has more than its fair share of problems with denominational schools at a time when integration should be paramount. I find this development for a state funded school of this type a retrograde step. If people desire to have segration in the school for their children to attend then they should self fund it.
277

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18/05/2008 19:23:02
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:24:34
307

Dodgy ground when you discriminate with public funding on the grounds of religion both ways.
Its dodgy to give it and its dodgy to deny it.
279

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:25:40
308

We never got the full story then either at least not a version everybody could agree on.
280

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18/05/2008 19:28:15
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18/05/2008 19:28:36
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:30:14
296
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
...when was the last discussion or news worthy story on the funding of religious schools in the media??

-----------

What the hell does it matter? This is a newspaper site. We deal with what is in the news today. The fact that Salmond's support for faith schools has previously been reported wouldn't be of any great significance even if you were aware of it.
283

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18/05/2008 19:31:46
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:32:40
To 265 ELECTRIC HERMIT
I do object to being called sectarian and hate-mongering

------------

Then stop.
285

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:35:36
313

It matters to the points under discussion ergo the fact that the story is only news worthy because it is an Islamic school and it can be linked to the SNP.
The concerns are not about the public funding of religious schools the concerns are about AS supporting the public funding of an Islamic school. Nearly
every post up there proves that.
286

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18/05/2008 19:36:55
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:39:02
311

I didnt even know there was a publically funded Jewish school in Scotland now we all know there is going to be and Islamic one and its supported by Alex Salmond.
288

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18/05/2008 19:40:37
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18/05/2008 19:42:47
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:42:52
319

Hardly mainstream media coverage is it??
291

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:43:57
320

I dont know.
292

zeno,

GLASGOW 18/05/2008 19:47:19
Foulkes Off the CyberNat said (271): "So I ask you again do secular schools FORBID the teaching of religion and if so isnt that a form of religious indocrination and if they dont then what is the problem with having Schools which teach a specific religions setting up next to schools able to teach all religions???"

State-funded schools in a secular state would not 'teach' religion: they would educate pupils about how religion has played a part (good and bad) in history and society in a neutral way. You cannot not mention religion, but you don't have to teach it or indoctrinate children.

Isn't that a form of indoctrination, you asked? No more than being bald is a hairstyle and not collecting stamps is a hobby. Seriously, it's about being neutral on religion, plain and simple.

There is no problem with schools being set up to teach specific religions (with some limitations): it's just that they should not be state-funded.
293

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:49:40
316
It matters to the points under discussion ergo the fact that the story is only news worthy because it is an Islamic school and it can be linked to the SNP.

-----------

As you have been told but apparently failed to comprehend, this is not a new story. SNP support for faith schools was reported in this newspaper as far back as April 2005 -

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/SNP-backs-Muslim-schools.2621266.jp

And again last year -

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/SNP-is-open-to-idea.3303173.jp

That it is an Islamic school under discussion is only a matter of importance to sectarian bigots. For the rest of us it is faith schools...

But wait!

You've had all this explained to you as well.
294

zeno,

GLASGOW 18/05/2008 19:51:58
Ciderman 542000 said (320): "How can Scotland be an equitable society if there is one group telling another that they cannot educate their families in the way they want to?"

No one is prohibiting parents teaching their children about their religion. But what is being said is that the state should not fund schools that teach religion: the parents can teach their children whatever they like (with some limitations) at home or in their church, etc.
295

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:53:30
323

Sorry are you having problems with dislexia by any chance??

I asked if secular schools specifically FORBID the teaching of religion and if so isnt that a form of religious docrination and if not then what is the problem with having religious schools teaching a specific religion as opposed to being ABLE TO TEACH ALL RELIGIONS.
296

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:54:32
325

Why not?? by not funding religious schools are you not discriminating on grounds of religion??
297

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18/05/2008 19:55:36
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:55:42
320
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
How can Scotland be an equitable society if there is one group telling another that they cannot educate their families in the way they want to?

------------

If you imagine that is what anyone has been saying then the depth of your incomprehension exceeds what had previously been evident.

Those of us who favour an enlightened, inclusive, secular society do not seek state intervention to prevent parents passing on their own religious delusions to their children. We merely insist that the state should not be helping to fund this pernicious project.
299

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 19:56:21
325

The media linking the SNP to a badly publicised religion is the news story today as it is in 2005 and no it isnt a new tactic.
300

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 19:58:51
326
Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
Sorry are you having problems with dislexia by any chance??

-------------

Given the repeated and comprehensive explanations provided, you really should be addressing this to the mirror.
301

thinking,

Scotland 18/05/2008 20:00:00
#67
I used to visit Primary schools regularly and always found the faith based schools much better disciplined and their standards seemed much higher. Because they were faith based did not mean all the pupils were of that faith, just that they were based on that faith's standards.
302

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:01:57
328

Exactly obviously the media doesnt want to link the SNP to the Jewish faith because they havent been getting bad press or been linked to terrorism since the 40s. And the UK is supposed to be allied to Israel in our so called war on terror.
No propaganda value.
303

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18/05/2008 20:02:06
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:05:00
332 thinking,Scotland

You have to realise that the nature of faith schools is changing with fundamentalism becoming increasingly prevalent.

I make no apology for saying this yet again. We should not allow the pedlars of fear, ignorance and superstition free access to impressionable young minds.
305

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/05/2008 20:05:53
Why is this article being attributed to Alex Salmond and what does the picture send out as a subliminal message?

The decision is for Glasgow City Council.

Apart from that, I think any faith school should be privately funded and have to conform to the national curriculum, with a national curriculum in religious education requiring an examination based on the theory of all the world's religions.

State funded schools should be secular with the same exam.
306

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:06:37
331

Failed arguement and excuses are not explanations or facts. You still havent answered the fundamental question of whether secular schools specifically FORBID the teaching of religion and why this wouldnt be a form of religious indocrination simply because you cant and instead we get the all too ofton used excuse of you dont understand what I am saying.
Yer just a waste of posting space.

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18/05/2008 20:06:52
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:07:30
336

That is religious discrimination.
309

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:09:20
338

Well it should shut up his Islamaphobe critics but it doesnt. Same when the Iranian PM was invited to the Scottish Parliament a week after the Israelli ambassador.
310

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:11:25
335

By not allowing it you are promoting the same type of narrow minded thinking you see in religion.
Inclusive not exclusive makes for a better society.
311

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18/05/2008 20:11:51
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:12:10
337
Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
Failed arguement and excuses are not explanations or facts. You still havent answered the fundamental question of whether secular schools specifically FORBID the teaching of religion...

-------------

The question is nonsensical to the point of idiocy. By definition a secular school would not "teach religion". So why would anyone need to "FORBID" it?
313

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:15:03
341
Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
By not allowing it you are promoting the same type of narrow minded thinking you see in religion.

-----------

Utter nonsense that betrays a complete failure to comprehend the nature of secularism.
314

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/05/2008 20:15:29
336 should read,

....based on the theory and practice of all the world's religions.

Papers to be marked by the secular state's examiners.

Scotland separated religion from the state a long time ago. Best thing they ever did.
315

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:16:52
343

Yer a f*cking prat are you arguing just for the sake of it now?? why wont a secular school teach religion is it because its forbidden or is it because it may choose not to do so? either way the question is still valid as is the point I made.
Just because you are incapable of admitting yer wrong and would rather fill this blog with yer worthless idiotic meaningless avoidance of the issue.
316

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:17:53
345
Jock Tamson
Scotland separated religion from the state a long time ago. Best thing they ever did.

------------

The next step is to get it out of the schools. And the sooner the better.
317

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:19:53
344

Oh f*ck off you absolute prat. Who are you or I to forbid complete strangers access to anything??
318

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:24:04
346
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
why wont a secular school teach religion is it because its forbidden or is it because it may choose not to do so?

------------

I'm afraid there is no hope for you. You simply cannot grasp the very simple fact that a secular school, by definition, does not "teach religion". That is what secular means. Only a complete idiot would imagine it necessary to "FORBID" something that is categorically excluded.
319

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:24:17
347

Thats what they did in the Soviet Union and the Chinese republic not to mention North Korea.
It went just before freedom of speech.
320

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/05/2008 20:25:09
347, Electric Hermit. Have to disagree with you there.

Teach children about all religions and let them think for a change.

Explain to them the different philosophies. The similarities. The fact that it is the same God.

Some will agree, some will disagree. That's debate.

But at least the subject would open for debate to children for a couple of hours a week during their schooling years.
321

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:25:56
349

If it is catagorically excluded then its forbidden is it not??
The more you post the bigger the prat you sound.
Very suspiciously similar to AM2 in yer manner of posting.
322

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:26:35
348
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Oh f*ck off you absolute prat. Who are you or I to forbid complete strangers access to anything??

------------

Yet another monumental failure of comprehension. Nobody but you has so much as hinted at such a thing. Must be the voices in your head.
323

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:28:40
353

Yep familiar tactic lose the arguement and start to troll. Like I said yer a waste of posting space.
324

Displaced Scot,

UK 18/05/2008 20:33:43
Bending over backwards there will be a price to pay. Is the SNP so desperate for Muslim votes, now that it looks they should not be in power, with the mistakes that were made in the last election.
Scotland is a Christain country with an established Protestant Church, if you dont like it move.
325

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:37:21
355

Why?? judging by this blog I bet the majority of folk in Scotland are non religious. Prods are just another minority go look up the stats.
326

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:38:48
352
Foulkes Off the CyberNat,
If it is catagorically excluded then its forbidden is it not??

------------

I have to assume that English is not your first language. That would go some way to explaining your abject failure to understand even the simplest proposition.

But I refuse to be defeated by your ignorance. I will have at least one more go at this.

The phrase "categorically excluded" is not, as you so foolishly imagine, synonymous with the word "forbidden". For something to be forbidden in any logical sense then it must be at least theoretically possible. For a secular school to "teach religion" would be a contradiction in terms.

As previously pointed out, a secular school may teach ABOUT religion as a cultural phenomenon. But it could not both be secular and include in its teaching anything based on religious creed or scripture.

A secular school could not, for example, teach any creationist myth as if it were a scientific theory - in the way that many faith schools do. Not because if is "FORBIDDEN". But because it would not be a secular school if it did.

I sincerely hope this helps, as your petulant obtuseness has grown very tiresome.
327

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:39:44
342

Religious education.
328

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:40:26
355
Displaced Scot
Scotland is a Christain country with an established Protestant Church, if you dont like it move.

------------

Scotland is a secular state. There is no established religion. And that is how I would like it to stay.
329

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:42:46
357 AM2/troll now that we have identified you again.

Therefore it is not forbidden to teach religion in secular schools so the question still stands what is the problem with teaching specific religions in religious schools as compared to teaching any or all religions in secular schools if they so choose to do so??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
330

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:44:03
358
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Religious education.

------------

A denial of reality. We have had "religious education" in schools as long as there have been schools. In case you hadn't noticed, sectarian bigotry of various kinds still persists.
331

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:44:19
359

But it has religious schools and worship in specific religions.
332

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:45:31
361

I dont ever remember any religious instruction on Islam when I was at school do you??
333

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 20:48:18
360
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
Therefore it is not forbidden to teach religion in secular schools...

------------

Nobody can say I didn't try. But it is clear that you simply are not capable of understanding these very simple matters. And now you have drifted off into some imbecilic delusion about me being someone else.

I'm afraid you are beyond any help I might be able to offer.
334

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:50:11
364

There you go again with the not understanding excuse.
Why dont you just admit youve no got a f*cking leg to stand on and yer just arguing for the sake of it now.
335

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:52:38
364 AM2

No you are definately you its just a different logon.
336

Canadian Jambo,

18/05/2008 20:58:43
Oh dear-not a good road to go down. I hope he reconsiders his 'sympathy' for faith schools -of any type.
337

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 20:59:56
367

Which says more about the state of Scotlands morale compass than it does about the FM's.
338

Scunner,

Scotland 18/05/2008 21:01:03
This encourages religous divides in my opinion. I am against this and also against Catholic schools. The last thing we need is more religious fanatics.
339

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 21:01:52
369

thats a very divisive stance to take.
340

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 21:07:01
365
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
There you go again with the not understanding excuse.
Why dont you just admit youve no got a f*cking leg to stand on and yer just arguing for the sake of it now.

----------

Why would I lie just to save you the embarrassment you have worked so hard to earn?

My position now remains the same as it was when I first posted in this thread. Namely, that I oppose all faith schools on principle and seek a the kind of secular education system that is appropriate for an enlightened democratic society in the 21st century.

To that end, I want a rapid phasing out of all state funding for faith schools. I do not seek to "ban faith schools". Far less do I seek to "ban religion". But I would like to see a form of licensing system in which only schools which meet the criteria of a secular curriculum would qualify for state funding with all children being required to attend licensed schools under the terms of existing legislation relating to compulsory education.

If people want to indoctrinate their children into some delusional cult, I may not like it but I acknowledge that I have no power to prevent it and I would certainly not be willing to concede such power to the state. But I can insist that this abuse of young minds is not subsidised by the state which represents me.

It is a perfectly valid and very straightforward proposition. Quite why some here are having such difficulty with it I leave to readers to speculate.
341

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 21:13:57
371 AM2/troll

No you dont the only ambition you have is to troll as many news blogs as possible for as long as possible especially those with stories on the SNP or Islam.
You must really get yer jollies when theyre combined into one story the only question folk have is whether you do it for a living or yer just no right in the heid.
342

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 21:22:14
372
Foulkes Off the CyberNat
371 AM2/troll
No you dont the only ambition you have is to troll as many news blogs as possible for as long as possible especially those with stories on the SNP or Islam.
You must really get yer jollies when theyre combined into one story the only question folk have is whether you do it for a living or yer just no right in the heid.

------------

You are as seriously deluded as the religious nutters with whom you sympathise. In the first place, I have been posting in this and many other places as Electric Hermit for more than ten years.

And if this AM2 you are so obsessed with is the individual I have in mind, then I think I am correct in saying that he/she is a unionist of the most rabid and unthinking variety. Whereas I have been an active nationalist for more than half a century.

There are many ways of being wrong. You appear to be going for the full set.
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18/05/2008 21:24:21
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18/05/2008 21:25:10
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18/05/2008 21:26:01
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Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 21:31:12
I would say you'd be missed but I suspect yer going nowhere while you still have all yer other accounts and no doubt a few new ones to introduce like Electric Hermit above.
347

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 18/05/2008 21:34:01
Funnily enough I dont believe AM2 is AM2 but electric hermit is definately 100% the real deal.
348

Winston,

France 18/05/2008 21:34:57
I'm a scot living in France. Here the schools are secular and its fine that way. And theres plenty of churchs and mosques and whatever for the different faiths.It would be better for Scotland to phase out existing religeous schools.
349

Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 21:37:09
380
Methalions,
Really? Ten years? Post a link.

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I don't take orders from you. little one. I have not been so active on message boards of late due to other commitments. But Electric Hermit is still not difficult to find on the web.
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18/05/2008 21:39:08
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18/05/2008 21:39:09
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Electric Hermit,

18/05/2008 21:42:29
384
Winston
I'm a scot living in France. Here the schools are secular and its fine that way. And theres plenty of churchs and mosques and whatever for the different faiths.It would be better for Scotland to phase out existing religeous schools.

------------

I think France - and Turkey, for that matter - take things too far by prohibiting the wearing of head-scarves etc. on the grounds that this somehow threatens the secular nature of the institution. Such things are symbols of personal belief and reflect on the individual only.

But you are, of course, perfectly correct about the need for Scotland to phase out faith schools rather than encourage new ones.
353

Astarte,

Giffnock 18/05/2008 22:56:44
#389 Electric Hermit.....I understand that GOVAN has adopted part of the French and Turkish model. They do allow Islamic a Sihk head-coverings but it is strictly taboo to wear a Celtic jersey.
354

indune1,

Canada 18/05/2008 23:10:38

392 - Hello Col. - old chum! Well said.
355

Friar Tuck,

Port Perry, Ontario, Canada 18/05/2008 23:54:56
It's about time that schools were totally integrated.

I grew up in Edinburgh and for years thought that Roman Catholics were people that I should not associate with because they went to "different" schools. When I emigrated to Canada in 1967, my views changed because some of the people who became my best friends were Catholics.

Religion should be totally separate from schooling. There should be one school system for everyone. Leave religion for the churches. Ban ALL religious schools!

While on my rant, for those of you who do not know, Canada is heading the same way; we alrady have "faith based" schools but only the Roman Catholic ones are funded by the taxpayers. Now, Toronto wants to have an "All Black" school and has the approval of the Ontario Government to do it! Talk about segregation!

George Carlin got it right when he said religion should be banned. All wars are based on religion. I think God is just waiting for us all to massacre each other in the name of religion so he can start again!
356

Cyril,

New Zealand 19/05/2008 01:33:11
I am glad that I live in New Zealand and not in the land of bigots like Scotland. Schools here are supported by the government whatever they are. People in Scotland forget that millions of Muslims helped to give them the freedom they now enjoy as well as the large number of Catholics especially from the USA, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand. As a WW2 Veteran I think anyone who pays taxes should also receive the education they want. How many of the contributors have had the courage to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan for their country. oo many gutless people like to have their say today.
357

Colac,

Brisbane 19/05/2008 01:44:31
"Religion should be totally separate from schooling. There should be one school system for everyone. Leave religion for the churches. Ban ALL religious schools!"I agree with this comment from a previous post,If these people want an Islamic school let them pay for it or go back to wherever they came from. The same is happening in Australia with politicians kow towing to the Islamic faith and fawning over them. Islam is intent upon world domination, and it starts with brainwashing at school. Stop pussyfooting around, stand up for yourselves and say NO!!

358

Mary Bell,

OK, USA 19/05/2008 01:53:06
This education project smells like the 'New World Order' to me.

Alex Salmond is a former Banking and Oil Economist for the Royal Bank of Scottland.

I don't know who really 'owns' this bank, but the Federal Reserve Banking Corporation in the USA is a private group of Jewish bankers who are contracted by our Congress to 'manage' the US economy. All 'Central Banks' in every country, are managed by factions of these same families.

In the USA we can see that their mission is to pillage and plunder the taxpayers, and create sufficient instability to further their plan for total world domination and slavery.

I think these films concerning the world 'planners', are viewing.

http://www.hi5pics.com/tags/Bilderberg.html

Fore-warned is fore-armed.
359

Mary Bell,

OK USA 19/05/2008 01:56:19
Correction: ...Films ...are 'worth' viewing.
360

mrweetoes,

glasgow 19/05/2008 01:58:00
terrible idea absolutely terrible what are you doing alex?!?! we should be getting rid of faith-based schools not creating more!
361

P.K,

19/05/2008 03:56:20
Silly posters and Islamic apologists running out of valid arguments to debate in so much that they have to resort to acting like clairvoyants with their stupid imagination of who is trolling with another identity!!! That's what losers do after losing the plot. On top of all, bringing up unrelated topic. What have Israel and Jewish schools got to do with the article above? What next? Conspiracy theories in the making by the envious Islamist hawks.
362

P.K,

19/05/2008 03:59:33
Electric Hermit

Bravo, very good posts. Please keep on posting.

363

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:14:00
I am sure that an Islamic scholl was shut down just a couple of years ago in or around glasgow ..but I`ll do some research on it ...and here we go Wee Eck showing who really pulls the strings of the SNP and that is the Asians for Independence sector of said Party ..You know the ones that Wee Eck has been running around shouting that Scotland Economy will collapse if we dont have more " Curry Cooks " as we Scots and anyone Else not from India , Pakistan or Bangladesh cannot cook or even serve a Curry properly so therefore the Curry Cafes will die out ....and this is about the one and only time Wee Eck went to London ..so shows you were is loyalty lies and it aint with us ..

364

boudica,

Glasgow ... 19/05/2008 10:15:20
School not scholl ...education is a Wunnerful Thang aint it ..
365

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:17:29
398...Mary when your milk turns sour ..do you blame the Jews for that too ...
366

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:19:43
Cyril ..Doesnt NZ have a very stringent and selective immigration policy ...
367

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:23:25
Cyril as their was also a Desert War those Muslims were fighting alongside us to save their own asses as well and not too forget how many kept changing sides as did the Italians depending on who was winning ...or do you forget the Muphti of Jerusalem and his Mulsim SS ( whom Himmler gave special dispensation so has they could qualify as "Aryians" )
368

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:24:34
Sorry for spelling errors but the Likes of Cyril with selective memories get right on my nerves..
369

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:26:14
And as for NZ and Racism ..what about the Moaris are you intending to give them back their land Cyril ..anytime soon ..
370

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 10:31:30
We banned the balaclava as it was seen as a Symbol of Terrorism ..The Scarf has been seen worn by Terrorist all over the World as has the Veil in tour Culture the only ones to cover their faces were and are Criminals it is a Cultural thing for us not to trust anyone who hides there faces remember Beslan ...Covered faces and Headscarfes worn by both the men and Women who went on to slaughter children in their School ..
371

,

19/05/2008 10:46:30
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372

,

19/05/2008 10:48:34
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373

Billious43,

glasgow 19/05/2008 13:50:56
I hope Alex reads these responses.
I couldn't vote SNP at the last election, even although I would dearly love to support greater independence for Scotland, because of the way in which Mr Salmond toadied up to the church in his bid for votes. Well, you lost mine, Alex, and a hell of a lot of others to boot. I and many other Scots who believe in this country cannot sell-out to the poisonous, backward-looking, totalitarian institutions that have plagued it for a thousand years. Decide once and for all, are you for Scotland's future or its past? Our children are our future. Lumbering them with a medieval and superstition-based world-view from the start would strangle any opportunity this country has to progress. Schools are for learning not indoctrination. There is nothing to be gained by teaching religion (which is patently absurd and false) and everything to be lost.
374

Billious43,

glasgow 19/05/2008 13:55:40
cyril, new zealand.
Charming language and of course there are no bigots or racists in new zealand are there? Ask a Maouri, then 'cast your stone' or, better still, add something constructive to the debate.
375

Billious43,

glasgow 19/05/2008 13:56:06
Boudica, the Islamic school was near Dundee.
376

John PM,

Edinburgh 19/05/2008 15:17:06
I can't help noticing that the true bigotry of Britishness is coming out on this story while the SNP are again proving their open welcoming attitude towards other cultures. If there is sufficient demand why not? We already have a Jewish school so why not a Muslin one, they will all be required to teach the national curriculum.

Personally I'm an atheist but being exposed to the fairy tales of religion at a young age didn't do me any harm and there is little difference between the brands.
377

John PM,

Edinburgh 19/05/2008 15:17:34
Sorry, Muslim.
378

P.K,

19/05/2008 16:50:45
#416

Quote: "We already have a Jewish school so why not a Muslin one," Unquote

What nonsense are you talking about? We've already have Muslim schools. There's one near Dundee according to Billious43 and at #169, Becket pointed out there are over 100 Islamic schools!! Muslim schools have long established on British soil and so are the mosques. What else do you want?
379

boudica,

Glasgow 19/05/2008 19:43:42
415 ..Thanks for clarifying that for me ..why was it closed ..do you know ..I remember something iffy was going on ? I wonder if they teach the kids to honoyr your father or you`ll end up buried in a suitcase in a garden and of course the Community will help cover this up ..
380

Mary Bell,

OK USA 20/05/2008 00:23:32
No, boudica, I don' blame the Jews is tne 'milk goes sour'. I have many Jewish friends, and the world would be a sadder place without their 'good sides'.

Their leaders like to work in secret, and I think the world would be a better place if the greed-mongers could evolve to a higher spiritual level.

The Jewish PEOPLE are the most frightened persons on earth because of the continual actions of the FEW on the goyem (non-Jews), also called 'gentiles'.

The Jewish LEADERS have absolutely no respect for the 10 commandments... especially thou shalt not lie, steal, or kill. This is an easily proven fact, but does not mean that ALL Jews practice Ignorance, hatred and greed.

In the USA, we were not permitted to say the word 'JEW' for many, many decades, because Jewish leaders would scream 'anti-semitism'! This gave the dark-hearted ones a lot of freedom to proceed un-checked in underhanded dealings.

I do not think that there is any THEORY to the Zionist conspiracy to enslave the planet.

Undermining local economies, education, customs and religion(s) is an important aspect of their plan.

Peace and prsperity to you, dear
Scotts
381

The Pict.,

20/05/2008 00:48:40
The point is 413. Let's get 100% independent and then we can have our own labour etc. parties who can fight it out. Your reasoning doesn't make sense. The only party that will lead you to independence is the SNP. So while you say you want independence you are as bad as the supporters of the English parties. So vote for Wendy and see how far that will take you.
382

The Pict.,

20/05/2008 01:18:28
# 420 Mary Bell. How many of your zionist friends have Israeli citizenship? Like 100 %. So where does their loyalty lie? Easy one.......Israel. Oh you might check with Hollywood for the hate films against any Non-Jew. Funny you never see one about the way your jewish friends keep the Palestinians..living in filth like pigs because they resist the Israeli theft of their lands and the expulsion of over 200 thousand Palestinians from their land so that your friends can own it. Perhaps you could mention what their 'good side' is. I'm a secular humanist who believes in the right of all people to live. Let's get rid of ALL ancient superstitions and lies. The real truth is that the Jewish bible fairy tales were stolen from the Egpytians. Yaweh the jewish god was actually Ra and Christ the son was of course Huros the son of Ra. This Egyptian fairy tale is documented in the Alexandria museum and is over 2.000 years prior to the R.C church's 'invention' of Christ.
383

truthsleuth,

20/05/2008 01:20:47
How can faith schools possibly be beneficial to race relations or in modern parlance community cohesion.

The biggest two faced premier we ever had prostituted his premiership to gain the favour of the Pope as we all now know.

So clearly Salmond has his eyes on Rome and beyond ...
384

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 20/05/2008 12:27:34
Complaints about building a state funded Mohammedan School on the ground that it will be devisive.
Too late folks.
Thin end of the wedge was in years and years ago and nobody noticed.
385

P.K,

20/05/2008 13:25:55
The most frightened persons on earth are the religious fanatics who use religion to dominate the world and undermine freedom of speech and worship. Greed-mongers involved people of all races and colour, not just one race of people.

There are many Pakistanis making their permanent home in London and their children born there are all taking up British citizenship. So where does their loyalty lie? Easy one......Pakistan and religion, Islam and not Christianity.

No such thing as thiefs of lands! Most nations are built on conquest of other people lands while some others too have ancestors as occupants and thus have as much right to claim the region also as their homeland.
386

P.K,

20/05/2008 13:37:19
boudica

Quote: "...why was it closed..." Unquote

According to W Smith (#22)- "One muslim school in Dundee was closed down as it was run my militants who had no intention of giving the kids academic education - it was religious education."

Remember, Pakistan set up religious schools called Madrasses in the late 1970. Later, it was found out these schools turned out students to become terrorists and religious extremists, exporting fanaticism!!

387

Iftikhar,

Forest Gate London 20/05/2008 19:12:22
Salaam

Muslim schools are not only faith schools but they are more or less
bilingual schools.

Bilingual Muslim children need to learn standard English to follow the
National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve
humanity. They need to be well versed in Arabic to recite and understand
the
Holy Quran. They need to be well versed in Urdu and other community
languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty
of
their literature and poetry.

Bilingualism is an asset but the British schooling regards it as a
problem.
A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want
to
become notoriously monolingual Brit. Pakistan is only seven hours from
London and majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan.

More than third of British Muslim have no qualifications. British school
system has been failing large number of Muslims children for the last 60
years. Muslim scholars see the pursuit of knowledge as a duty, with the
Quran containing several verses to the rewards of learning. 33% of
British
Muslims of working age have no qualifications and Muslims are also the
least
likely to have degrees or equivalent qualifications. Most of estimated
500,000 Muslim school-aged pupils in England and Wales are educated in
the
state system with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. Majority of them are
underachievers because they are at a wrong place at a wrong time.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual
Muslim teachers during their developmental periods. There is no place for
a
non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. As far as higher
education
is concerned, Muslim students can be educated with others. Let
Muslim community educate its own children so that they can develop their
own
Islamic, cultural and linguistic identities and become usefull members of
the British society rather
388

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22/05/2008 00:51:28
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389

,

22/05/2008 01:01:45
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390

Calum Crubag,

22/05/2008 12:44:34
NO! Close all faith schools. We need children who think, debate and experiement. Not just plebes who are brainwashed from an early age.
391

john z,

edinburgh 23/05/2008 16:55:55
As a taxpayer, I object to one penny of my money being used to fund the hatred, bigotry and dogma that spouts from Islamic scheools.

This is Scotland, not Saudi Arabia.
I hardly think if I lived in Saudi Arabia or Iran the gornment would fund a secular school for me. No, in reality they'd probably kill me for being 'anti - islamic'. Lovely religion Islam.

Do we really want to have state funded Islam???
392

john z,

edinburgh 23/05/2008 16:58:12
We need educated kids in Scotland, not brainwashed fanatics.

393

john z,

edinburgh 23/05/2008 16:59:26
If this goes ahead, I will vote for ANYBODY who opposes it
394

Links Green,

03/08/2008 13:22:56
Well done Alex Salmond! One in the eye for the religiophobes.

 

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