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Salmond attacks 'Downing St downturn'



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Published Date: 17 October 2008
By Hamish Macdonell and David Maddox
ALEX Salmond launched a coruscating attack on the "Downing Street downturn" yesterday, blaming Gordon Brown for taking Scotland to the "brink of recession".
The First Minister used his opening speech to the SNP conference in Perth to lambast the Labour government in London for the economic crisis gripping the country.

Arguing that the Scottish Government was already taking action to help Scots get through the downturn, Mr Salmond claimed much more could, and should, be done by the UK government to prevent the worst effects of recession.

The First Minister called for a further substantial cut in interest rates, the release of £1 billion in government funding for Scotland – which he claimed was being held in London – and a major reflationary package to lift the economy.

He also wants to see a reduction in VAT on fuel and increases in the winter fuel payments, measures the SNP claim it would implement if it had the power.

Mr Salmond said: "It is time for a major programme of reflation in the real UK economy to boost demand and confidence in the economy to give help to hard-pressed households and businesses. (The government] can start with a further and deep cut in interest rates, which is necessary now for the real economy.

"Gordon Brown and his age of irresponsibility have taken this country to the very brink of recession. It is (the] SNP which will force the measures Scotland needs to escape the Downing Street downturn."

Mr Salmond will make his main address to his party conference on Sunday, but he spoke yesterday to launch the conference and tackle, briefly, the economic crisis gripping the world.

The new Perth Royal Concert Hall, which can hold 1,200 people, was barely a third full for Mr Salmond's opening address, because many delegates do not arrive until today or tomorrow.

Some activists had been told to continue campaigning in the Glenrothes by-election, rather than come to conference yesterday, such is the SNP's determination to win the seat from Labour. All this made for a rather muted start to the conference.

Mr Salmond strode to the podium to applause, but no ovation, and neither did the delegates stand to cheer him after he finished.


The full article contains 376 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 00:07:09
The Bone Collector has just been remastered and released on DVD.

It stars, Denzel Washington, Angelina Jolie, Queen Latifah and Alex Salmond.
2

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 00:23:36
I wouldn't have described myself as a religious man, but I'd worship Satan himself if only it'd mean we'd get rid of the incompetent clown Brown in no 10...
3

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 17/10/2008 00:33:01
Well said Alex, I hope Brown does not chicken out of the chance to anwser some of your questions to your face when he comes up to Glenrothes.

Unfortunately I don't think he has the guts to meet you for a public debate.
4

,

17/10/2008 00:43:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

MickyFinn,

Livingston 17/10/2008 00:47:15
silk purse from a sows ear, at this moment in time the whole world in economic crisis and Mr Salmond spouts forth, it wasn't that long ago he wanted to make Scotland into Iceland and Ireland, look what happened there.
6

,

17/10/2008 00:56:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

MickyFinn,

Livingston 17/10/2008 01:01:16
#6
How far do you wish to go back re Scottish demise what about the Thatcher years certainly put Scotland to the sword.
8

Marky Bhoy,

Dinfermline 17/10/2008 01:25:25

7 Mickey I will go back to the 16th of October 2008 rhen we had a more anti Scottish government than anything Thatcher achieved
9

Mandy Jones,

Scotland 17/10/2008 01:50:47
Salmond's probably right. Lets face it, Brown enjoyed 10 years of cheap imports from china and even started to believe his own hype about how he'd abolished boom and bust.

As a nation, the UK owes more per person than anyone other than the US and Iceland.

Trying to borrow your way out of a recession is like digging out of a hole.... yet brown wants to spend, spend & spend more!
10

TommyKaye,

UK 17/10/2008 02:09:30
No Flash just Gordon - no how about your new name

CRASH GORDON - 11 YEARS OF TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK WHILE THE CREDIT IN THE UK EXPLODED RECORD STAMP DUTY REVENUES RECORD OIL TAX REVENUES WHERE IS IT ALL NOW GORDON ON THE UK VISA CARD - SOLD GOLD AT THE WORST TIME EVER SUCH A WISE OLD HEAD LOST MORE THAN 9 BILLION OF YOUR ENGLISH POUNDS ON THAT ONE DEAL - MAYBE HE SHOULD USE THE NAME MIDAS


"I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the recovery."
Gordon Brown's 1997 Budget Statement

"Under this Government, Britain will not return to the boom and bust of the past."
Pre-Budget Report, 9th November 1999

"Britain does not want a return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 21 March 2000

"So our approach is to reject the old vicious circle of the...the old boom and bust."
Pre-Budget Report, 8 November 2000

"Mr Deputy Speaker we will not return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 7 March 2001

"As I have said before Mr Deputy Speaker: No return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 22 March 2006

"And we will never return to the old boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 21 March 2007
11

Royster,

17/10/2008 02:38:50
Oh that's so clever. Both 'downturn' and 'Downing Street' begin with the word 'down'. SNP looking increasingly desperate.
12

TommyKaye,

UK 17/10/2008 02:49:45
Desperate oh do you mean like this pal;

However, two sections would later become the centre of fierce debate: the allegation that Iraq had sought "significant quantities of uranium from Africa", and the claim in the foreword to the document written by Tony Blair that "The document discloses that his military planning allows for some of the WMD to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them."

13

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 17/10/2008 03:05:43
'Bring them on' - Have you thought of starting a career on the stand-up comedy circuit? Your insights on life are really wasted on these sites.
14

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 17/10/2008 03:44:25
Bring them on on making afool of himself again - keep it up mate - your doing a great job - playing the man not the ball as always.

The facts of the matter are there for all to see - this mess was caused by Gordon Brown's mismanagement, it simply can't be spun any other way.

Also, what has happened to all reference to the four Scandic countries - esp Norway? they are not in strife, or are they? - can a unionist maybe try and shine some light on this?

Iceland has a population of 1/20th of Scotland's so any comparisons between it and an Independent Scotland tied to the eurozone are misleading to say the very least.
15

Andrew D,

bne 17/10/2008 04:48:11
Yeah this isn't a return to "boom and bust", Brown is right about that.

It's boom and crash.
16

Eyesrolledindespair,

Floatin' 17/10/2008 05:11:33
#18: Resorting to insults seem to be the normal tactic of those with no reasoned arguments to offer.

Brown has no plan other than to fill his and his wealthy cronies pockets'. He doesn't give a monkey's d*mn about elderly living in energy poverty.

His "brain" has been utelised over the last decade to devise plans and schemes in the filling of his and his cronies pockets.

As for balls? The size of melons.
To even pretend that none of his previous actions as chancellor has had any influence and have brought the country to this very low point.

This is well beyond bust.... and it's only just begun.. Sadly.
17

Eyesrolledindespair,

17/10/2008 05:18:20
No I'm referring to your insulting post. I have no why so many on these boards can only be rude without actually posting anything useful or informative.
As for poster #17... they appear to be in Australia. I'm in the US.... so hardly "mates"
18

Guga II,

Rockall 17/10/2008 05:20:56
Bring them on/Roofarse Firefly.

Why don't you reserve you banal comments for the Guardian, where they belong.


19

Eyesrolledindespair,

17/10/2008 05:27:08
No, your post was rude #26.

As for my political affiliation? Certainly NOT useless Labour... that's for sure.
However, having been watching it from this side the Pond... my negative feelings for Labour - which I never had much trust in before - are certainly increasing.
As to what I'll vote in the next elections? Well I'll need to get registered for ex-pat vote first.
20

Eyesrolledindespair,

17/10/2008 05:35:42
#28: Oh, dear... now you have to be rude to me. Well, I suppose you're leaving some one else alone.....
21

Aussie Jack,

Brisbane 17/10/2008 05:46:36
I am SO pleased that Alex the Salmon made a coruscating attack on the mob down south.
Anything less that coruscating would have been entirely ineffective.
Out Prime Minister KRUDD has defied the global downturn by giving all single aged pensioners a one-off
$1400.00 bonus for Christmas ($2.100.00 for married) to be paid to us on 15th December.
I shall put whisky on my porridge instead of milk. Wonderful.
Gotta go and look up coruscating in the dictionary.
22

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 05:48:18
#21 It's New Labour who are the British Isles' equivalent of the Republican party.
23

TommyKaye,

UK 17/10/2008 05:53:23
If you are going to comment on Gordon Browns body as in his brains and balls how about his nose.

His nose is growing with all the lies he is spinning and stocks are going down again today so more HUGE LOSSES for the taxpayers again
24

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 06:03:39
#34 Sure Gordon would have us believe that when the economy was doing well that was his doing, but the subsequent downturn is none of his fault. The world bailout plan is his idea, but if this fails to halt a recession (which looks increasingly likely) I fully expect him to disown any responsibility for that.
25

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 06:04:24
Scotland has taken an unimaginable battering in recent weeks. Yes, I don't mind admitting it ; my head was down. So was yours, no doubt. But we must link arms in adversity and go to Glenrothes to fight the good fight, and return victorious with a stinging reminder to Gordon Brown that the SNP remains the authentic voice of Scotland. Yes, it could be argued, Mr Brown has done well amidst the financial chaos although he seems to relish its awfulness which I personally find rather alarming. But had the Bank of England still been accountable to HM Government, surely the part-mismanagement of our banks would have been monitored many months ago and the severity of the crisis could have been cushioned. Because it wasn't, two of our great institutions have effectively been stolen from under our very eyes by the Scots Labour Mafia in London.
26

izzie,

dundee 17/10/2008 06:30:59
I suspect when the dust settles Brown will be held more culpable of the financial debacle than he would like us to believe at present. He was responsible for giving the banks their head by allowing them to set interest rates thereby removing rigor. He also managed to sell our gold at a time when that commodity was at rock bottom. Now he and his colleagues want us to believe he has saved us all!
Incidentally why if Brown us so vital to the recovery of the world economy has Bush not invited him to a summit?
27

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/10/2008 06:32:02
So is "Downing Street" responsible for the "downturn" in other countries?!

The nationalists' continued recourse to soundbitism (arc of prosperity, historic concordat, London Labour, unfair council tax) further entrenches them as the most cynical and manipulative operators in British politics.
28

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 06:34:32
#38 So just to confirm, Gordon Brown isn't at fault for this country's current financial problems?
29

izzie,

dundee 17/10/2008 06:43:27
# 38 I suspect you are being disingenuous Browns actions have left us vulnerable to the vagaries of the world financial chaos.
30

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/10/2008 06:46:13
#39 Richardinho

Just to confirm: Gordon Brown isn't at fault for the U.S. subprime crisis.
31

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 06:49:05
#39 Correct.

But everybody knows that.
32

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 06:51:32
#41 I knew you wouldn't be able to answer my question.
33

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 06:52:08
Richardinho, how is the Bumble Bee economy doing?

That world famous phrase, used by one person.

Whats your favourite airline?

Flybee?
34

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 06:53:19
#42 but will the public be as easily fooled by Brown's spin as you are?
35

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 06:53:58
Richardinho, got your tickets for the new Bobby Sands film yet? You could take idee with you.
36

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 06:54:28
#44 The whole of the world has been running a bumble-bee economy. Unfortunately what seemed too good to be true has turned out not to be.
37

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 06:57:03
#45 Gordon Brown is known as the 'economic saviour' all over the world.

Whereas Salmond is known as 'El Gordo' in Spain.
38

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 06:59:10
#47 Our economy will be buzzing once Gordon turns it around.
39

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 06:59:36
#48 yes, well we all know what happens to 'saviours'.
40

Breezy,

Argyll 17/10/2008 07:00:43
The public are not being fooled at all folks.

Tinyurl.com/4frxng
41

Jung,

17/10/2008 07:09:14
#48
Wrong (as usual)

Brown caused it. Sarkozy provided the solution but has been hijacked in the UK by Liebour.
42

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 07:11:41
#53 Do you ever say anything that isn't gibberish?
43

Jung,

17/10/2008 07:12:49
#53:- " You need to look at the bigger picture."

That's what the totally discredited Tony Bliar used to tell us. You obviously have been totally taken in by the scumbag Liebour Party.

44

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 07:21:21
#53 BTO, correct everybody does need to look at the bigger picture.

Unfortunately however the Snp supporters cannot do that.

They are driven by an overriding hatred of the English. Everything else is secondary to this.

If an independent Scotland went bust, in there eyes it would not matter as at least we would be free of the hated English.

There are more racists in the SNP than there are in the BNP.
45

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 07:23:45
53 bring them#

1770s West German model to ride out the storm..what a load of garbabge, so funny i had to put down my coffee; clown!

Brown has employed the 'boom and bust' model and we are now entetring the 'bust' stage. The recession is kicking in now (the one Brown employed the West German model in order to ride out lol) and he has nearly bankpupted the country already.


Even without the crisis the UK was looking at tax increases and reduction in public spending; now he has managed to reduce the banks to 'premium bond status', hocked the UK on world money markets to bail his mess out (the UK has NO cash) and what is left for the recession? Nothing!

Roll on Glenrothes!
46

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/10/2008 07:23:53
#52 Jung

Brown caused what, exactly? The global downturn? So tell me: was oil falling from $147 to $67 a barrel all part of his dastardly plan to deprive you of your "independence"?
47

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 07:27:36
Nothing is ever Gordon's fault. Of course when things go right, that's all down to him.
48

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 07:29:21
58 AM2#

Brown was in charge of every faiancial decision in thsi country for 10 years. He was at the epicentre of banking and finance and was personal frinds with just about every mover and shaker in the city.

Are you so naive that you think the chancellor did not know the risks that he and the banks were taking with everyone in the treasury, economists, bankers and the civil service behind him?

Time for your tablets AM2!

49

Colkitto,

River Clyde 17/10/2008 07:32:59
Love the negative spin against Salmond right at the end of the article.
Gordon will be so proud of you boys at the Scotsman....
50

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/10/2008 07:33:34
#59 Richardinho

Iceland is effectively bankrupt. Ireland is in recession already, with lower per capita government debt than the UK but far higher personal debt levels (190% of GDP). Spain is in big trouble. UK institutions have been under serious pressure. Pakistan came close to bankruptcy earlier this week. Norway needs to bailout its commercial banks. And so on, and so forth.

So for Salmond to try to portray such a situation as stemming from a "Downing Street downturn" is opportunism of such a blatantly obvious kind that it's difficult to see how it won't further backfire on him.
51

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 07:33:37
Nevsky, has someone swapped the keys around on your keyboard?
52

AM2,

Scotland,UK 17/10/2008 07:35:31
#60 Nevsky

I'm not going to spend any longer here. Post #62 sets out the true position.
53

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 07:35:59
#62 Yes, you've said, none of this is Gordon's fault.
54

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 07:39:09
AM2#

Wrong!

The UK is one of the worst performing countries next to Iceland and the USA; in case you had not noticed..two banks have been fully nationalised with three having been part-nationalised.

Care to total up what this has cost and you will find the UK is the worst performing ecomony in Europe and forecast to get even worse.

Ireland is going into recession, so what? So is the UK but unlike the UK, Ireland were astute enough not to use 1 penny of taxpayers money to secure their entire banking system!

How many banks has Ireland lost so far AM2? How many has Norway lost? Denmark? Sweden?

You are really struggling here to put forward any defense of your UK if this is the best you can do!
55

Richardinho,

17/10/2008 07:45:28
'It's global time boys and girls.'

Think that's supposed to mean "it's not Gordon's fault". Perhaps the poster would like to clarify.
56

John S,

17/10/2008 07:55:37
"Please can I join the Eurozone leaders" begs Brown.
Luxembourg Finance Minister Jean-Claude Juncker told a German newspaper that "The British prime minister had to beg to be let into the room in which the euro group was meeting" Oct. 15 (Bloomberg)
57

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:13:25
No wonder RBS went t*ts up if Eck was ever an economist there. Its time to stop the politics and face reality. Whoever's fault it is (that'll be Broon and irresponsible borrowers)we're now bust and in a lot of debt as a nation. Eck can't keep promising cuts in taxes and increased public spending. It just ain't possible.
58

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:13:40
"Mr Salmond said: "It is time for a major programme of reflation in the real UK economy to boost demand and confidence in the economy to give help to hard-pressed households and businesses"

How is this to be done? The MPC has already cut interest rates and may reduce them further. The only other way the govt can reflate the economy is by spending more. But this would increase debt further and high debt is one of the major problems.
59

Jung,

17/10/2008 08:18:02
#64
Back to your very own xenophobic website?
60

Proximaking,

Stonehaven 17/10/2008 08:20:53
Is it only me that thinks Alex Salmond plucks his eyebrows? How can you vote for a party lead by a man that plucks his eyebrows and by the look dyes them as well. I think the point that has been missed here is that capitalism has given us great benefits, look at the world we live in with all the great things. The problem with this analysis is it is myopic, engineered products have made life easier not capitalism, engineering is the elephant in this room and it doen't need capitalism any more, we need engineered products and now we can ditch the pretence that capitalism ie the rich, had any part to play whatsoever except to act as dupes. In other words we are where we are so who cares about WMD or who shot Kennedy (Johnson) or did they really land on the moon (of course not) what matters is where we go from here and like it or not one world government is on the way but the rich won't be running it as they had been playing for, they were duped, by the geeks. As Bill Gates famously says in his speeches, "Be nice to the geek because one day you'll be working for him" and didn't someone very very famous, even more famous than the Beatles, once say "Blessed are the geeks for they shall inherit the earth", ..... at least I think that's what he said, I was at the back with Michael Palin. In other words stop thinking short term, oil is a temporary blip, capitalism is a temporary blip and I wish we had a Hume or a Burns today to give us something long term and worthwhile rather than someone who slags off other people all the time while sticking his begging bowl out crying "I want more because its mine mine mine" like a spoilt brat. Maybe Salmond can run rings around the losers in Holyrood but he makes me cringe with his playground political jibes every time I see him now, he has become a national embarrassment as have his abusive supporters on this post. God help us if people like that ever get their hands on Scotland. They never will of course, the "arc of prosperity" has se
61

Proximaking,

Stonehaven 17/10/2008 08:21:24
IsGod help us if people like that ever get their hands on Scotland. They never will of course, the "arc of prosperity" has seen to that, ....... "the crop is over-ripe thrust in your sickle". Funny how all the old stuff comes back to haunt us.
62

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 08:23:06
Anyone who is in the mistaken belief that Gordon was not warned and was not aware of what he was doing to the economy should read the following from the FT:

'IMF staff might also point out that, despite repeated attempts by Mr Brown’s Treasury to influence their public pronouncements on the UK economy, they did repeatedly warn him about the threats from the build-up of credit and the housing boom – and were ignored'

Brown as chancellor knew exactly what the risks were and he gambled on it despite being repeatedly warned by the IMF.

63

Rufus T. Firefly,

17/10/2008 08:23:30
#75 BTO

I need to research this 1970s German Model. Is it a hybrid like the current Danish one?
64

inkster,

17/10/2008 08:29:34
ZER0 to HERO - THE PLAN
====================

PAUL KRUGER (Mid September turned down by Hank Poulson)
|
NICOLAS SARKOZY (Turned down by Carla Bruni)
|
GORDON BROWN (suggested by Campbell/Mandelson)
65

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 08:30:27
#75 Bring them on

Unfortunately, we will undoubtedly be getting the same deal as the people of Ireland - income-tax and VAT increases and less government spending.

Salmond is perfectly entitled to speak about tax cuts, combined with free school meals, free this, free that, and free the next thing.

The CT freeze will be the first thing out of the window, next year, and Salmond has relinquished control over policy implementation.
66

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:33:46
#78 Nevsky

You're quite right about Broon but your criticism would be more credible of you'd lose the rose-tinted specs viz the Republic of Ireland. Just because it was an SNP icon doesn't make it's current economic mess any less real. The fact is, the Irish followed pretty much Broon's disastrous model. A 'boom' based on an overinflated housing market, huge inward investment from foreign companies that are now withdrawing and, previously, EU subsidy. Yes, they've got posher houses, nice roads and glitzy restaurants now. But Lenihan has just had to introduce a killer of an austerity Budget and their Health Service has never improved beyond Second World. Watch this space and get real.
67

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:36:06
78 Nevski
Yes there have been warnings. But hich politicians have been critical of these aspects in the past. Alex Salmond and David Cameron are coming out today and blaming Brown for the crisis but did either of them complain a year ago about the high level of govt spending? Did either of them call for tighter regulation of banks or more credit controls at that time?

So much of the current rhetoric is merely being wise after the event.
68

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 17/10/2008 08:38:31
Just a real quick question for all the Brown apologists here.

You're quick to tell us Gordon Brown isn't responsible for the world recession. Who is?
69

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 17/10/2008 08:38:59
'Sir' Alex is a chancer. Being attacked by him is the same as being harrassed by a dead sheep.

If he is so astute AFTER the recent events then why wasn't he as smart BEFORE them?

The only reason he wants to debate with Brown is to gain some credibility. Brown would be an even bigger fool not to see that.
70

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:40:19
#75 bring them on

Are you joking? Broon is the CAUSE of the mess, why should he be allowed any more time at the helm. This 'Saviour' Broon thing is nauseating. It's like me driving my car like a maniac round a blind corner, crashing head-on into an oncoming vehicle then giving the other driver the kiss of life and expecting some credit for it. Only a moron would trust Broon ever again although their were plenty of morons believed his p*sh in the first place I suppose.
71

TommyKaye,

UK 17/10/2008 08:41:12
#62

So David Cameron has just joined Alex Salmond and just told it as it is Brown is CULPABLE in the collapse of the UK thanks to his blind credit binge his selling of OUR GOLD RESERVES LOSING 9 BILLION in the process, watch as the truth starts to come home to roost the blame lies totally at number 10 and number 11 Downing Street
72

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:44:20
83 draco
I don't want to get into all of this arc of whatever business. It is usually quite facile to quote other countries as people only tend to quote the aspects that suit their argument without looking at the whole picture. You mention of the Irish Health Service ilustrates that. When the Irish economy was strong people commented on its model of low taxtaion as a stimuus. That was true but people did not look at the other aspects.

Only 30% of the population of Ireland can visit a GP without having to pay. The charge for going to accident and emergency has just been raised to 100 euros. Would policies like that be politically acceptable here? Somehow I doubt it. That is why comparisons with other countries can be facile and we should stop all this arc of whatever rhetoric.
73

A Crofter,

Western Isles 17/10/2008 08:45:34
Proximaking - Interesting theory.

I still think "Eyebrow-plucker" moonlights as the Churchill Insurance dog. The resemblance is uncanny.
74

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 08:50:31
83 Draco#

Not sure where in any post i look at Ireland with rose-tinted glasses. I am fully aware that Ireland has huge problems and that the boom was funded by cheap credit and the housing market..much like that of the UK.

Where i do praise Ireland is that they have dealt with their banking crisis. Europe has now come in and guaranteed that no institution will fail, effectively securing all of the Irish banks.

They have not (as yet) spent a bean and have secured their banks, that is not rose-tinted, that is the reality and it is not the situation in Scotland who are totally at the mercy of Westminster dic-tats!

Ireland is in recession but so is the UK and i personally feel Ireland will come out of a recession much faster than the UK.

75

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 08:55:24
#88 Tommy Kaye

You are quite right to blame Brown. Unfortunately, I don't recall any of the other parties proposing anything particularly different, though.
76

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 08:57:36
#89 Ugly George

Exactly. The SNP's obsession with the ROI as some sort of role model for Scotland was always annoying. Yes, there has been vast changes and improvements in Irish society since Independence. A lot of those have been due to the growing influence of the EU not particularly the decline in influence of the UK. Because the SNP have been so blindly positive about Ireland, like a saddo I like to check out the Irish papers on line (I recommend it to the Nats, it's a revelation) Many of the problems there remain the same as Scotland's. Crime, errant youth, drugs, greedy politicians. And like we've pointed out, their Health Service in no way compares. I don't hear the Nats talking about the people in the ROI who go to Northern Ireland to get life saving cancer care because they'd die before getting it south of the border. It's better there now but not the Nirvanah the SNP would like us to believe.
77

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 17/10/2008 08:59:51
Thank goodness we Scots will not have to put up with Salmond's bleatings for much longer.
78

Ugly George,

17/10/2008 09:00:37
91 Nevski
"They have not (as yet) spent a bean and have secured their banks"

I've pointed out to you before that that is not really the case. The Irish guarantee hit the the price of their bonds as these were perceived to be more risky now. This will make issues of their gilts more expensive for them.

There is another aspect to consider. We do not know how this will play out. If UK banks recover the govt may be able to sell their shareholdings in the banks at a profit. Even if they don't, they are receiving a dividend income from them. So in the long run the UK govt may come out of this better than the Irish govt.

Also, as I pointed out, if the Irish govt's move was so smart why did only 3 of 27 EU countries follow suit.
79

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:01:23
Salmond's plan for saving the economy: reduce VAT on fuel and give pensioners a bit more towards their heating costs. Errm...

80

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:02:26
#91 Nevsky

Perhaps. But I suspect they're also very much at the mercy of events elsewhere. Like how deep and how long the US recession becomes. The Irish economic 'miracle' was, to a significant extent, due to the attractiveness of their low taxation to foreign investment. When those companies are having a hard time at home, they'll start to cut back abroad. The Irish are already seeing that,as are we unfortunately.
81

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:06:31
To Bring them on, Tin Man, and all the other Unionist drones.

What have you been promised by New Labour Sleaze??

Safe council seats??
Job with a favoured charity (large salary + unlimited expenses)??
Well paid jobs in Sleaze councils??

How much does it cost to buy your dignity and self respect??

Do tell us!
82

,

17/10/2008 09:11:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:12:24
#99 Jimmy

Labour are a load of rubbish. Your mate Salmond hasn't proposed doing anything particularly different.
84

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:12:43
And a few more!

48. Refuse to create an Independent Scottish Labour Party
49. Catch Phrases/Spin e.g.” Whiter than white, Purer than pure”, "McChattering Classes", "CyberNat" and "Ranting Bloggers"
50. 20% Scots in relative poverty and increasing- tinyurl.com/2klhdm
51. Massive election frauds in Birmingham and other places (judge described as being like "banana republic" corruption)
52. The £400 million over-run on the parliament building.
53. Tony Blair comparing the Scottish parliament to a parish council.
54. Dressing taxes up as Green taxes and not spending the proceeds on the environment
55. Hammering high profit oil companies with high corporation tax but not his friends in the higher profit financial sector

85

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:14:12
#101 Tin Man

Don't you want your self respect back or are you content to continue begging London for the crumbs from the top table??
86

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:15:31
#100 Le Pie

Tha fact that you list Labour's shambolic immigration policies and the use of Dungavel on the same list shows just what a silly SNP drone you are.
87

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:17:21
#103

Who cares? What were those SNP policies to steer the economy in the right direction, reduce personal debt, and avoid the banking collapse?
88

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:20:43
#104 Draco Was a Wimp

So you think locking up kids, who have done nothing wrong is acceptable, in a so called civilised society??
89

jdships,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:20:46
92 The Tin Man,

Problem with what you say is that for Salmond, Cameron , Clegg et al ,in opposition, it is easy to pontificate .
I prefer to be told what the opposition ideas/policy's are closer to a general elction when they will have more impact.
This is where Cameron may score .
When you are in power you have to prove you are the person to lead , have the policy's to suit the situations etc.
As it stands Brown, as did Bliar before, has failed on all counts .
Who is the best for me is the problem !!
90

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:20:58
#102 Le Pie

An impressive list. I presume you have it written down in 'Le Pie's Little Yellow and Purple Book of Labour Failures and Betrayals'. I also suspect you may be the sort of person who writes to the Prime Minister using incredibly small, close-packed script. Using green ink.
91

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 17/10/2008 09:21:57
#100

Genuis you contradict yourself about 10 times, together with about another 10 that are just made up.
92

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:22:56
#109 Wimp

It's a big book!!
93

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:23:02
#107 Jimmy

Yup. Then please remove the shambolic immigration policies from your wondrous list. The two are not compatible.
94

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:27:26
#110

The Iraqi War was legal and right???
The gold fire sale didn't happen???

Do enlighten us
95

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:27:44
In April 2007, the SNP leader was quoted as saying: "We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in gold-plated' regulation".

Oh dear...
96

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:29:03
Wimp

Do you know the difference between asylum seekers and economic migrants??

Thought not.
97

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:31:18
#114 The Tin Man

Did Eck really say that? You and him have a lot in common. You're made of tin, he has a neck made of brass.
98

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:32:27
#113 Jimmy

I do congratulate the SNP on their stance against the invasion of Iraq, which they maintained when the other parties acted like a herd of sheep.
99

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:35:04
#115 Le Pie

How many times have FAILED (i.e. bogus) asylum seekers and their children been given the opportunity to leave the country, at taxpayers expense, with dignity and of their own volition before being put in Dungavel (for a few days only? Can you tell me that? Thought not. AR*E.
100

Tom R,

17/10/2008 09:35:14
#62 AM2
You say "So for Salmond to try to portray such a situation as stemming from a "Downing Street downturn" is opportunism of such a blatantly obvious kind that it's difficult to see how it won't further backfire on him."

It seems to me that is exactly what David Cameron was saying in a live speech on TV this morning and I recollect you claiming to be generally a Tory supporter and not a Labour one.

I also noted that Cameron said that a lot of Brown's manoevering and spinning was an attempt to win the Glenrothes by-election.

101

,

17/10/2008 09:39:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
102

Alan B,

17/10/2008 09:40:52
Interesting to see Portillio on the politics show saying that Browns claims scotland could not protect its banks are just labour spin.

And he was surprised that scotland were not more angry by labour bankrupting 2 scottish banks, with the obvious knock on effect to the scottish economy.
103

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 09:42:20
#118 wimp

There is still no reason to lock up kids.

You really are a sad apology for a human being.
104

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 17/10/2008 09:45:22
#85 "Just a real quick question for all the Brown apologists here.

You're quick to tell us Gordon Brown isn't responsible for the world recession. Who is?"

Hello? Hello? Unionists? Anyone there?
105

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:45:52
#121 AlanB

I would agree that that was spin, although I am shure that most people would buy into it. He should have highlighted Salmond's wish to relax banking regulations, last year.
106

New Town Resident,

17/10/2008 09:48:46
I agree with Mr. Salmond that VAT on fuel should be cut. Its good to see he now seems less concerned to promote a high energy tax policy on the basis of the somewhat spurious carbon agenda.

This is one of the many reasons I would like to leave the EU, because, as I am sure we all know, VAT on fuel is set by the EU, and so cannot be changed by the UK government.

However I also understood Mr. Salmond is very supportive of the EU. So I have some difficulty reconciling the logic of his position when he reportedly claims that VAT on fuel would be in the power of independent Scotland led by the SNP?

Perhaps one the SNP members on this Board could kindly clarify?
107

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 09:49:07
#106 Dim Man.

I have a list as well but I wont expect you to read so many words, so I will just ask one.

What happened to London New Labours commitment to the People from the three Nations, that there would be a referendum on the EU Constitution.

Now I dont want diversions or New Labour Spin that is not the EU Constitution. That doesnt wash anymore.

Just tell us all why he refused and why did he skulk along to sign up the UK without putting it to the People?.
108

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 09:53:49
#122 Le Pie

What is the SNP policy for removing families of failed asylum seekers who refuse to leave Scotland? Labour are useless but you, Salmond and the SNP are worse. You make cheap politics out of serious issues, whether it be the economy or asylum seekers. As long as you can make Labour look bad or have an opportunity to take the moral high ground, without offering a realistic, thought-through, non-soundbite alternative. Grow up.
109

Alan B,

17/10/2008 09:53:58
#62 AM2

Even for you that is ridiculous. Yes there are global problems but the UK has been so badly economically mananged by Brown that we are not in a position to withstand any global problems. in fact the economic mismanagement of the uk economy has been so bad by Brown that the uk is going to and is suffering far worse than it should.

Brown has allowed massive house price inflation so that their is now huge personal debt. The fact that ireland also has allwed huge personal debt does not in anyway excuse Browns incompetence. Your argument that because Ireland (and the US) allowed silly mortgage lending then that excuse Brown for his sheer incompetence is disgusting considering the number of people whose real lives are going to be trampled on in this mess. What Brown has done is bordering on criminal negligence.

We now either have the bad choice of inflating the economy to deal with massive overpriced and overvalued property. With the detrimental economic consequences. Or allowing a recorrection with the pain of negative equity and mass repossessions that will entail.

Add on to that Brown has been negligently running up huge public sector deficits, which means that it is much more difficult to deal with economic issues and problems when they occur. for instance when their is huge increases in oil prices the sensible option when so much of the cost is tax and he is getting a windfall from the high prices was to compensate and reduce petrol taxes. High transport cost pushed up inflation (and food prices) etc. Which feed into the general economy and forced interests higher than the general economy needed, until the enforsed interest rate cut when inflation is flying at 5%.

We then had the dithering over NR and general dithering about coming up with a bail out plan. Followed by the ego manic speach where he compares himself to churchill as he plunged the country into unprecedented debt that the tax payer not him will have to fund, to bail out his mess.
110

Joe,

Nile Grove 17/10/2008 09:54:09
#7..But Salmond admires Thatcher's policies..now the fool is blaming a worldwide recession on the UK
government..Scotland is fortunate indeed not to have Salmond's SNP in full control. Get them out before they wreak havoc.
111

Alan B,

17/10/2008 09:56:44
#The Tin Man

Was not saying i agree with Portillio but as an ex tory shadow chancellor as someone who is abit of an English nationalist it was an interesting response.
112

Hey,

17/10/2008 09:57:11
Surely the SNP should be concentrating on more important things than bringing back Mary Queen of Scots' bones and trying to get Kris Boyd to return to the Scotland team?

In this time of economic crisis policies such as those are seen as even more trivial than they actually are.
113

Mrs. Trellis,

Dartmouth 17/10/2008 09:57:34
Poor old Mr Tellis.. he's getting very concerned that Alex is missing the chance to make a real name for himself.. "Laird of Everything"
As an economist,(Alex that is!),Mr Trellis says, "just has to give the world the most economical solution" to what is possible financial armagedon!!
Just peg the US dollar's value to gold again, and then revalue gold..Simple!
But then surely it's time to give the keys of Fort Knox to the UN. What do recon' Alex.. is it no a wee beauty!
Mrs. T
114

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 09:58:46
#126

I would agree that that was very disrespectful. And the SNP want to enter the EU without a referendum, with membership probably including the EU constitution.
115

Joe,

Nile Grove 17/10/2008 09:59:24
#123..Your 'sermon' is seriously
flawed.. The UK government is hardly responsible for the USA
sub-prime mortgage market that started it all? They are however responsible for 'curing' it..
116

Joe,

Nile Grove 17/10/2008 10:01:50
#132..They might be useful in SNP soup kitchens?
117

Alan B,

17/10/2008 10:01:55
#The Tin Man

"Salmond's wish to relax banking regulations, last year."

Exactly what was Salmond proposing to relax.

I am personally not particularly supportive of Salmonds call for a keynesian type government bailout of the economy. Largely becuase of the huge amounts of public sector debt Brown has run up. If we had run a tight fiscal ship i would have been more supportive of a keynesian demand mgt approach. But think the appalling fiscal position makes that much more diffcult.

To some degree when you have made a mess you have to ride out the storm and their is little politicians can do ones you are in a mess. Much easier to prevent it in the first place.
118

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 10:02:02
#135 Joe

The reverend should perhaps stick to less earthly matters.
119

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 17/10/2008 10:02:26
#135 I don't see you answering my question. Who IS responsible?

Take all the time you need.
120

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 10:02:48
#128 wimp

Until we get our independence the SNP can only affect devolved matters.

Or is that too difficult for you to understand??

And Comrade Broon needs no help to make himself look a self serving buffoon. He does it really well himself.

#130 As I said to you yesterday who had Maggie round for tea and scones??

Oh yes it was the saviour of the world, Comrade Broon.
121

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 10:05:31
#137 AlanB

ex-Glasgow Herald:

In April 2007, the SNP leader was quoted as saying: "We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in gold-plated' regulation".

Make of it what you will.
122

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 10:07:43
#140 Jimmy

The SNP are an opposition party at Westminster. As such they need an economic policy (as do the Conservatives).
123

Alan B,

17/10/2008 10:08:30
#New Town Resident

"VAT on fuel is set by the EU, and so cannot be changed by the UK government."

You are half right half wrong. The EU does not and did not set the VAT on energy. That was a choice by the then tory government.

However having added VAT to enegry the EU do not let you remove it again.

The UK should never have agreed to the EU controlling VAT on energy. There is a good argument for VAT harmonisation within the EU single market. Without it the single market might collapse as VAT competition would distort the market.

However as energy (electricty) goes to your house and is not mobile their simply would not be a distortion of trade and should be excluded.
124

Joe,

Livingston 17/10/2008 10:08:51
#100..The SNP kept the last Tory
government in power thus prolonging the Thatcher agony..
Your list - pathetic - pales into
insignificance in comparison..
People of Glenrothes beware the SNP Tartan Tories...
125

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:09:14
#140 Le Pie

LOL Your hypocrisy is truly breathtaking. Since when has something being a reserved matter stopped the SNP having an opinion, a policy or an ersatz-policy. It seems immigration and asylum is the exception. You can feel morally superior to Labour (and me), make tawdry political capital out of people's unfortunate circumstances, yet offer no serious, realsitic alternative to the status quo. You're a true follower of your party there Pie. Eck would be proud.
126

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:10:12
Many of our current economic problems have resulted from the divorce of Gordon and Prudence some years ago. We are, to an extent, the victims of this failed marriage.

If they had stayed together, we might still have had some problems but it would have been possible to reflate the economy with tax cuts or more public spending. Unfortunately the level of debt won't really allow this.

The sad thing is that we can now see that, even when he professed to be in love with her, Gordon was never really faithful to Prudence.
127

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 10:10:20
142 Tin

Another rather pointless posting from yourself, again.
128

Joe,

Nile Grove 17/10/2008 10:12:07
#139..The rapacious banking 'religion' in the USA...
129

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:14:19
#146 Ugly George

I suspect that Prudence was another of Broon's beards!
130

Alan B,

17/10/2008 10:14:19
#141 The Tin Man

But that says nothing. What i asking is what regulation was he talking about specifically.

I for instance would support a light touch regulation aslong as house price inflation was controlled. To do that it is about supply of housing and regulation round lending for mortages.

To me this crisis is largely due to banks having to fund excessive mortgage lending due to massive house price inflation. Not being able to do that from deposits as they simply did not have enough and then using the credit markets.

There is nothing wrong with using the credit markets also it is the amount of exposure. And even their if the US has been prudent in its mortgage lending then we would not have the drying up of the credit markets.
131

Alan B,

17/10/2008 10:15:34
#146 Ugly George

Very well put.
132

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 10:20:03
#145 Wimp

Having an opinion is a wee bit different to having power to implement it.
Should no one criticise the Sleaze Party??
Even some Sleaze MP's oppose the Dear Leader on rare occasions.

For breathtaking hypocrisy you only need to look at the 42 day detention vote when the late Glenrothes MP was shipped to the Commons to follow the party line yet was having to sue them to get the compensation he was rightly entitled to, for his disease contracted at the naval base at Rosyth.

Vote SNP
Vote for Independence

133

Alan B,

17/10/2008 10:20:53
#134 The Tin Man

"I would agree that that was very disrespectful. And the SNP want to enter the EU without a referendum, with membership probably including the EU constitution."

The big difference is that labour promised a referendum on the EU constitution as a manifesto commitment.

I think it would be best for if scotland was to go to independence to remain in the EU initially. Then if their is any groundswell of opinion to leave a referendum on scotland future membership of the eu could be held. There is a difference between transition and long term aim.

Personally i am very supportive of remaining with the EU and also joining the euro.
134

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:24:52
#152 Jimmy Le Pie

No, don't give me your diversions, your cliches and your worthless slogans.. You said I was an excuse for a human being. The SNP has policies-in-waiting for just about everything else. It has an active energy policy which is a totally reserved matter. So what is the realistic, humane SNP alternative to Dungavel? What is yours? Put up or apologise.
135

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 10:27:32
Wimp

One lasting memory of New Labour Sleaze hypocrisy was the day Comrade Broon announced his last budget.
All the Comrades were cheering loudly and waving their order papers when Broon announced the 10p tax rate was to go.

Remember??
136

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 10:29:58
Wimp

It does not intend locking up kids.
137

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 10:32:17
#153 AlanB

Agreed, especially about the Euro. If there still is a Euro - I suspect that the current Euro-dismemberment scare stories are just that.

Presumably if we received automatic membership on the back of having existing MEP's, we would automatically get a poportionate share of the UK EU settlement and automatically be signatories to the EU constitution.
138

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:35:45
#156 Jimmy Le Pie

As I suspected. No answer. You're all mouth and slogans, like your party. You live in LA LA Land. The panacea for everything is Independence but you never answer the specifics. Well that's why the majority of sensible thinking Scots will not follow you and the rest of your Braveheart numpties into the void.
139

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 17/10/2008 10:39:45
#85 "Just a real quick question for all the Brown apologists here. You're quick to tell us Gordon Brown isn't responsible for the world recession. So who is?"

Hello? Hello? Unionists? Anyone there? Anyone?
140

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 10:40:09
#12 royster

Only an @nal retentive like yourself would have spotted that !
141

The Tin Man,

17/10/2008 10:43:04
#155 Jimmy

Would the SNP have introduced minimum wage legislation?

Would they have introduced the 10% rate in the first place?

What are the SNP policies on these issues, out of intrest?
142

Edwardg,

17/10/2008 10:43:20
Interest rates are set by the Bank of England which is obviously independent of the government. He can't blame Brown for that (although Brown is entirely responsible for the poor state of the treasury's bank balance!).

Personally I want to see interest rates kept above 5% until inflation is down to 2%. As for house prices, they were at ridiculous levels and have to fall.
143

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 10:43:28
#94 WUM

Are you emigrating?

Great result for the rest of us !

eejit !
144

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 10:48:54
#95 George.

The effect on Ireland may also be relatively short term, in which case the costs might be low.

The banks are already trying to re-negotiate the deal relating to no dividends to the other shareholders and it is possible that the Govt will concede them this point. The Govt shareholding in the banks may yet turn out to be extremely costly.

My post, like yours, is simply speculation on a number of possible scenarios. In reality, no-one really knows, yet !
145

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:49:56
153 Alan B
"also joining the euro".
But herein lies the problem with the UK economy in general and the Scottish economy in paricular. High levels of govt spending may preclude this. To join the euro Scotland would have to adhere to the stability pact of no more than 3% of annual GDP as an annual deficit.

The latest figures for Scotland give a deficit of 10.2bn without oil revenues and 2.7bn with a geographical share of oil revenues. The 2.7bn is pretty close to the 3% of GDP and the 10.2 is over 10%. So entry,in the current economic climate would be heavily dependent on oil revenues. But what will they be in 5/10 years time? It is hard to tell. If the rate of production continues to decline and there is not a strong, sustained recovery in the price of oil, revenues will be well down on their current level.

This would require either big cuts in govt spending, higher taxation or a an economy which grows very strongly in the next few years. that is the problem. The economy of Scotland would be too dependent on oil which is a dangerous, vulnerable position. Other aspects of the economy need to be strengthened.
146

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 10:52:09
164 Connaughtboy
"In reality, no-one really knows, yet !"

Absolutely. That is why it is a mistake that the Irish option was better than the UK one or vice versa. Time will tell.
147

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 10:53:42
Salmond blaming Westminster for something, nothing new there then. I wonder if he'll mention Iceland in his speech.

Jimmy Le Pie - All you do is cut and paste the same rubbish each day.
148

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 10:53:47
#95 George:

"Also, as I pointed out, if the Irish govt's move was so smart why did only 3 of 27 EU countries follow suit"

Be careful with this type of logic. There are numerous examples in this crisis (and in every walk of life) where the majority way of doing things was not necessarily the best way.

Many countries and financial institutions behaved like sheep, pressurised to compete in a crazy, risky market. Some banks, HSBC, were in a minority and chose a different path. We can all see the result.

I'm sure you could come up with some examples yourself to back up my point.
149

New Town Resident,

17/10/2008 10:58:18
~134 and 153.

The SNP promised a referendum on the Constitution in teir manifesto too, and to be fair Salmond voted against Lisbon (he's still a part time Westmisnter MP remember!).

Interesting that you both assume the SNP will break this promise, given the chance. I do too.

Nothing of course to stop Mr. Salmond calling for a Scottish referendum on Lisbon - it would probably pass in Holyrood. Why doesn't he if he's so concerned about reflecting the views of the Scottish people?
150

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 10:58:53
#161 Wimp

The minimum wage was a good idea, probably the only piece of good legislation to come from New Labour Sleaze.

The 10p tax rate was a good policy, unfortunately scrapped. If Comrade Broon hadn't backed the illegal war in Iraq he might have been able to hold onto the 10p tax rate.

The Non dom tax rate is obscene.

Scotland would have a much fairer tax and LIT system than that we have at present.

But then you know that already.


151

Mikey,

17/10/2008 10:59:12
In response to those who reckon Broon isn't responsible for the US subprime crisis.

If Broon had stopped the Brit banks from taking on the US toxic debt, there would've been no subprime scandal as the US bamks would have been unable to lay off the debts.

The subprime deficit is not new and when it first raised it's head, Broon should've been straight onto the banks, instructing them to divest of their toxic debt!

Prudent? He hadn't a clue!
152

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 11:00:38
Ewan M

So what have you been promised for selling out your dignity and self respect??
153

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 11:01:35
#165 George

"The latest figures for Scotland give a deficit of 10.2bn without oil revenues and 2.7bn with a geographical share of oil revenues. The 2.7bn is pretty close to the 3% of GDP and the 10.2 is over 10%"

There are some economic observers who argue/complain that, the economic data for Scotland is very hard to unpick from the UK in order to accurately compute the true surplus/deficit.

I have read analyses that are considerably more optimistic than the ones quoted in your post.
154

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 11:02:50
Tinman,

Alex Salmond and any other political party will not be deciding anything about the EU. Theres the small problem that they have to go through before a decision on Scottish Sovereignty would be permissable.

The Scottish Constitution forbids any political party to do any thing other than the overall will of the Scottish People. The Scottish People are the Sovereign power. Thats a fact even now. The Scottish Parliament was never formally disolved.

Now for all the unionists on this forum, one question. Name me one Politician in the UK who would gladly uphold a constitution of the people?. certainly not Brown. Thr Irish People have a very similar constitution, hence their ability to tell their prime minister to get stuffed on the EU. Its called democracy, for those of you who havent seen it before.

Alex Salmond knows the SNP will No longer exist as an entity after a period of construction of our democracy. Each member or member of any political parties will set up political parties that are bound by the Constitution.

There could never be a Brown, Blair or Thatcher in Scotland. They wouldnt have the authority to declare any wars without the Scottish People giving their permission.
155

scottish person,

paisley 17/10/2008 11:03:38
AM2 and Bring them on are Hamish Macdonnell and David Maddox on the boards.
They are a pair of useless journo's trying to mix trouble whilst knowing nothing.
156

Ugly George,

17/10/2008 11:04:50
168 connaughtboy
I agree - the majority opinion is not always the correct one. The point though is that the Irish moved seemed to be perceived as a high risk strategy. It might work but the consequences of it not working could be horrendous. A journalist in the Irish Independent describe it as "a very high stakes game of poker" I think that many govts did not want to take this type of risk.
157

Alan B,

17/10/2008 11:05:14
#Rev. S. Campbell

"You're quick to tell us Gordon Brown isn't responsible for the world recession. So who is?"

While i am not a unionist i will answer anyway. The US is responsible for the world recession due to their silly lending practices which cause the credit markets to dry up.

The other countries were partially responsible for allowing their banks to buy the poor quality mortgage debt from the US banks. This means that poor economic mgt from the US has become a global problem.

Also given the US's importance to the world economy if it sneezes many others will catch a cold.

Having said that the argument against Brown is not that he caused the world recession and collapse of the world financial markets. But that his economic incompetence has made the uk economy was build on poor foundations and the house of cards is now falling. He allowed massive house price inflation, massive personal debt, massive public sector deficits. It was his regulatory framework that failed.

As such i would blame brown for the uks mess but not the global issues.
158

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 11:06:40
#175 BTO

"Narrowed minded thinking from the likes of Salmond will lead to us all missing the boat."

It's a bit rich for you to accuse anyone of being "narrow minded" !
159

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 11:09:40
173 connaughtboy
"There are some economic observers who argue/complain that, the economic data for Scotland is very hard to unpick from the UK in order to accurately compute the true surplus/deficit."

Possibly so but the reality is that govt expenditure is very high in Scotland and the public sector tends to be dominant. I don't think that many dispute that. Some have even pointed out that the level of public sector employment as a percentage of the total resembles the old east Germany in some parts (e.g Ayrshire)

The question is can this be sustained and does sustaining it depend on a punt on the future price of oil.
160

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 11:13:48
#172 that's the thing Jimmy you lost respect and dignty with your posts a long time ago. If only you you were not a coward and give me your full name and address I'll write to the SNP with some of your post here and even they'll be ashamed of you. What a sad bitter person you are.
161

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 11:14:59
Wimp & BTO

I take it you were both unaffected by Comrade Broon's pension fund raids??

I take it you both approved of Comrade Broon's gold fire sale??
162

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 11:16:14
#Rev. S. Campbell if you need to Alan B to explain the reason for the global problems what's the point even posting here? Or are you just keen to assign everyone else for the problems like for example Alex Salmond.
163

Alan B,

17/10/2008 11:16:15
#New Town Resident

I think you have misread my post. My post regards what i think should happen not necessarily snp policy or what they would do. Also if you read my post I have not commented much on the lisbon treaty but on a referendum on EU membership.

My view on lisbon is that it will have been passed (or not) long before the snp get an independent scotland. As such scotland will be left in a position to accept all eu treaties or not.

Personally i do not have a big problem with much of the Lisbon treaty, but it is difficult to really understand what the implications are, becuase the debate in the uk is at such a dumbed down level.

I also think the EU were stupid to embark on the constitution as it was the wrong treaty at the wrong time.

I like the single market of the EU. Like the single currency (although countries should be free to join up only if they want to). Like the freedon of movement of people. Like common safety and environmental standards (on global environemntal issues). Would like foreign and defence policies to be common and developed. Dislike the employment regulations from the EU ie the social chapter. And would not want tax harmonisation.

164

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 11:18:29
181

I'll meet you outside 20 High Street, Markinch KY7 6DQ. and we can have a wee chat. What time would suit you??
165

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 11:20:35
#177 George

Risk is an interesting subject. In my business we never talk about risk in isolation. We look at the two components of "risk" ie "impact" and "probability".

My company frequently take on risks which have extremely high impact but only if we assess the probability of the event occurring as negligible. We always look at both factors.

On the face of it, I agree with you that Ireland adopted a "high risk strategy". We can fairly easily quantify the impact for Ireland if all of its guarantees were called in. What we cannot assess, however, is the probability of this horror scenario actually happening.

The Irish Government must have judged that, on balance, the impact/probability ratio was acceptable, given the unique circumstances that it found itself in.
166

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/10/2008 11:22:06
#187

Thought you might have approved.

Says it all - Sleaze Party before ALL else.
167

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 11:27:32
188 connaughtboy
"The Irish Government must have judged that, on balance, the impact/probability ratio was acceptable, given the unique circumstances that it found itself in."

It would be interesting to learn if they did attempt to quantify the probability. If so, I wonder what it was.
168

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 11:30:54
Ah Jimmy I don't want anything to do with you. I would just like to highlight to the SNP they have a bigot in their ranks.
169

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 11:34:44
188 connaaughtboy
PS I did read somewhere (unfortunately I can't remember where) that a real meltdown in the world's markets a la 1929 could well lead to the horror scenario for any country adopting the Irish approach.
170

arc of insolvency,

17/10/2008 11:40:49
To try and blame Westminster for a global recession is desperate from the Pie Man.

I'm sure he would have congratulated him when most of the worlds largest ecconomies went into recession after Sept 11th.....didn't think so.

If Salmond thinks he can somehow motivate people to vote for him by blaming everyone else he is very wrong. Try focussing on student loans, nursery care and his 1000 new police oh I mean RETAIN, RECRUIT and REDPLOY, because that was made perfectly clear in their manifesto. I hope none of the under 21 SNP supporters are drinking at the conference!
171

A Better Way,

ScottishRepublic 17/10/2008 11:43:54
Ugly George is absolutely right in his analysis of Government being to big and to expensive here in Scotland.

But lets be fair to the Scottish Parliament. It was set up by politicians who learned from a Westminster System that big government was the only way to go.

Personally I believe that an independent Scotland, will have to be brave enough to combine a strong entrepeneural system with a fair social democratic philosophy. A few countries have done a very good job doing just that. Business and Social conscience do actually combine quite well, if people know and agree in its early development. Joe the Plumber was a tos*er. He believed in Joe, and couldnt give a rats about the community he lived in. The whole US system is ethically broken. The whole British System has been hijacked by the same system, and to be very honest, it stinks. Not because it is called England, the English in many cases are as frustrated as Scotland. No its because the Westminster setup is full of very scared and incompetant halfwits, who are controlled by the mammoth Civil Service that views them as a mere inconvenience. It is a kingdom within a kingdom, and cannot be changed.

If your house is flattened by a huge tree, it cant be fixed, so you have to build a house yourself that could have a complete forest fall ontop of it.

Thats why I want Scotland to leave the UK. I know that for all its many faults, that Scotland could become one of the great countries of the world. It will take time and hard work, but its the best show in town for the Scottish People.
172

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 11:44:10
#191 George

Having read some of your previous posts, you have knowledge in this area, so a question for you (I don't know the answer). Would Ireland be able to lay off some of the risk of those guarantees?
173

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 11:54:46
#180 george

Agreed, as it currently stands, public sector employment is far too high in Scotland and steps must be taken to reverse this.

Equally, Scotland cannot depend upon oil alone. We have all seen how volatile the price of oil has been over the last few months (and the last week !).

I am still a strong believer in independence for Scotland for two reasons. First, on so many indicators we are "worst in class" (crime, health etc) and for me this is absolute proof that the Union has not and cannot deliver what's best for Scotland. For whatever reason. Second, I have faith in the Scottish people to flourish when left to manage their own affairs. History bears this out to be true.

To me the biggest obstacle to renewing Scotland is to overcome the particular problems associated with Glasgow and the West of Scotland. Health, generational unemployment and crime all need to be addressed. At the moment, Glasgow drags down the economy of Scotland and this needs to change.

I say this as a native Glaswegian.

Who do I blame for much of these problems? Those who have governed us, nationally and locally for the past 60 years.
174

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 12:01:47
Lunch beckons !
175

Alan B,

17/10/2008 12:13:33
#180 Ugly George

Much of your analysis is accurate. The underlying problem for scotland is poor economic growth. Why have we performed poorly.

Part of the problme with the union is political and that it stops scotland reformed herself.

If you look at the last 30yrs. Scotland got the tories when it rejected them at the polls. The tories became unelectable. People then bought into labours anti business and anti capitalist retoric while labour were in opposition.

If scotland had been independent you would have found labour emptied out the door after a couple of terms in office. Similar to the situation now. Scotland despite all the retoric of being left wing has voted for a party that has cut business rates, wants a cut in local government taxation, and has a policy to slash the rate of corporation tax. The lib dems under Scott are proposing big cuts in tax (800 million).

As such the problem for scotland is you are pushed at uk level into the arms of labour if you dislike the tories who anti eu and anti euro and have a section of the party that are english nationalists.

The best way to succeed is the kick out the parties that fail.

Even before that. Scotland has only voted once for a party in majority. That was the unionist party in the 50s later to become the tories. As such scotland voted overwhelmingly for a right of centre party rejecting the leftish party until that party merged and lost its own identity and distinct scottishness within the union.

Finally people like me have no problem with scotland having a union with england but want it as a equal member within the European Union.
176

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 12:18:13
197 connaughtboy
I don't know for sure but there might be some kind of default swap/insurance that would allow them to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if there is. It might be difficult though to cover 400bn euros in this way though.

Or maybe they went to Paddy Power the bookies!
177

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 12:18:44
ARC of Insolvency,

Alex Salmond is just doing what any other Leader of a Party that wants to make a better life for their own people. He is using the limited powers he has to get more of a following, and therefore more authority to go further. I dont think you would find a single pollie who doesnt do the same.

The question is why does he want to do it?. He knows very well that it is the only way to achieve the goals he is setting himself. He is merely trying to create a better Scottish Society for his people. All the chidish name calling wont change that fact, the man actually believes in his quest.

I believe he is on the right track, not because of willie wallace or robert the bruce, they are dead and gone. No I support him because he will get me the Scotland I want for my People. I believe GB has been dying since the end of the first world war. Its merely treading water and being kept going in spite of itself. Rejuvenation is never a bad thing, just have a look around the world at nations who have been rejuvenated in the last 60 years. Their the ones that are doing very well. Korea has a very stable economy, because it has a population who are fanatically dedicated to their Nation. They have built a shipyard that turns out millions of tons of the finest ships in the world. Their employess recieve an annual salary of 100,000 us dollars per annum. They dont work faster, they work smarter and do the job as near to perfect everytime. They work for their families and for their Country. I was in Korea 9 weeks ago. Amazing place with a can do attitude. Their Working class dont walk about like scruffs. They wear very good clothes and drive very good cars. Their offices are busy and efficient, and their manufacturing facilities are that clean you could eat your dinner off the floor. They dont lift big heavy engineered parts, they have more than enough people with machines to do that. They dont wait for their boss to ask them to do something, they do it because t
178

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 12:22:22
they do it because they have pride.

It will take a generation or two before Scotland gets to that level. But with the examples they get from incompetant London Governments, that see their people as the enemy, there to serve the government. It was lost along the way, time to start making things better.

As I said earlier, if the countries that were bombed into dust can do it, so can we. My choice would be out of the EU, but I dont mind compromising, at least me and 5 million others will get the chance to decide.
179

Alan B,

17/10/2008 12:25:54
#connaughtboy

Do think Glasgow has done quite well in transforming itself. Glasgow stats look worse as unusually the rich areas of Glasgow are not included within the Glasgow boundaries ie suburbs. This in unlike other cities.

Do think part of scotland problem is outside glasgow in the west coast. As UG mentions Ayrshire. And trying to prop up old heavy industrial areas. Scotland needs to look seriously as at its demographics.

The concept of council housing is wrong. It should be more a national social housing policy. Social housing should be round areas of employment etc. We should be encouraging the migration of people to areas of employment. Ensuring transporations is good and affordable to give people access to the job markets.

We should be seriously asking whether glasgow should be increased in population to say double it to compete with other big global cities. Rather than paying people to live in remoter towns with few job opportunities.
180

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 12:26:08
Come off it Bring,

It ceases to be amusing anymore. You can actually do a pretty good job of debating. Convince with moderation and it wins more than loses.
181

G,

dundy 17/10/2008 12:26:44
Salmond back to usual form...anything bad it's their fault, anything good it's our credit

Funny how he has been so quiet over the last few weeks - working on this masterpiece....

And how long will it be before he takes credit for someone else's ideas or hard work...
182

Alan B,

17/10/2008 12:32:45
#G

He has been quite quiet recently as he agreed with Darling to a cease fire during this crisis. In a similar to Cameron who has tried to put recriminations of till after we see our way out the mess.

However Browns interview broke any speech the other day broke the unwritten agreement between the parties to play it low key during the crisis, as he made it overtly political.

As we can see Salmond and Cameron are now piling in, trying to hold Brown to account for his mess and sheer incompetence.

Quite simply if other parties are not going to make a big deal of your mess and failures to allow the country to deal with the situation, you simply do not start comparing your plans as being like Churchill.

This is just another demonstration in the psychological problems Brown exhibits.
183

Alan B,

17/10/2008 12:34:58
oops - should have been

However Browns speech the other day broke the unwritten agreement between the parties to play it low key during the crisis, as he made it overtly political.
184

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 12:35:00
201 Alan B
"Scotland despite all the retoric of being left wing has voted for a party that has cut business rates, wants a cut in local government taxation, and has a policy to slash the rate of corporation tax"

The cut in business rates is to be welcomed. As far as the cut in local govt tax is concerned we will have to see how LIT plays out will it be an overall cut or a redistribution. There are though other aspects which cause me concern. The SNP govt still has an agenda of more spending - cutting class sizes, free school meals, abolishing prescription charges etc. In this sense they appear to be adhering to the standard policies of Scottish politics over the years. They also (according to John Swinney) want to spend £35bn on infrastucture projects over the next 10 years.

Can all this be achieved within a reasonable level of public spending? I dont know. That brings us back to the issue of corporation tax. It seems everybody wants to reduce corporation tax nowadays - there is something of a Dutch auction of EU countries doing this. But how is it funded in the initial stage. I reckon that cutting corpoation tax to 20% will cost about £1bn pa in the Scottish budget. I know the argument is that this should lead to a stronger economy in the long run and hence more revenue but it does have to be funded in the initial stage.

The Tories also have a policy of cutting corporation tax but they have spelt out how they would do this.

185

westview,

17/10/2008 12:38:44
What is happening to all the poor "sub-prime" home owners in the US? Are they just flung out onto the street along with their children? Why did Brown allow our British Banking system to get in so deep in this mess? It now looks like folk here will now be flung out on the streets. The sums of money being flung at failure could probably buy each sub prime person a home.
Brown is calling for world wide action ,good ,perhaps its the start of a world government? Oh no ! Brown will not even join the Euro system in case it upsets his Tory friends. His bonus (big pension) shude be cut along with the greedy bank bosses and he shude loose his job at the next election for swiping my pension money.
186

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 12:38:59
AlanB,

So who exactly do we let live in the rest of Scotland. You cant keep piling sheite on sheite, and a progamme of redevelopment on the scale you are taking about isnt practical or affordable. A project of that magnetude would be a twenty year project that would depend on a gradual growth in investment. To me the creation of a Tax Free Zone combined with housing that was designed to be exceptional and attractive would be the only way for your idea to get the huge investment it needs. Perhaps this fabled Bridge between Ireland and Scotland, with a first class rail system running down to England and beyond would be the go. What a stopping off port that would be, and the growth in jobs could be very good indeed.
187

Alan B,

17/10/2008 12:47:48
#Ugly George

If a cut in corporation tax to 20% would cost 1 billion remember the lib dems plans to cut income tax would cost 800 million.

Personally I would have taken the 500 million that goes to scottish enterprise and used it to cut corporation tax.

Also like Ireland i would have been tempted to have higher VAT (20%) and lower business tax. VAT is a tax on comsumption on all goods and services sold no matter what company produced them while rates and corporation tax hit scottish companies specifically. As such sometimes it is about niching your tax regime to areas important and necessary for the scottish economy.

Also given that we want to encourage business activity and investment it is better to tax consumption.

I do agree with you that the snp also have a got this dual personality. One that want to improve the economy and the other than wants to just spend more money. This is in itself a problme with the union as the snp want to attract as wide a base as possible. And the 2 are not really compatible.







188

Ugly George,

Edeinburgh 17/10/2008 12:59:18
198 Connaughtboy
"To me the biggest obstacle to renewing Scotland is to overcome the particular problems associated with Glasgow and the West of Scotland. Health, generational unemployment and crime all need to be addressed. At the moment, Glasgow drags down the economy of Scotland and this needs to change"

I think that that raises the question over whether Scotland's problems are political or cultural and to what extent the political impinges on the cultural and vice versa. One does have to ask why Edinburgh can have a relatively successful economy and Glasgow such a poor one. The problem I have with the SNP is that I don't really see a determined approach to tackling Scotland's big govt (central or local) culture. They have some policies which can be helpful but in other areas, as I said in post 212, they just seem to be adhering to standard Scottish political orthodoxy.
189

Alan B,

17/10/2008 13:00:08
#A Better Way

I think there is a problem in scotland were we throw money at failing areas rather than building on successful ones. In some ways that is also what happened in the 70s with industry by propping up obsolete industry rather than investing in the newer ones.

What i am also suggesting is when we build social housing we do it were it is more practical to get employment. When we pay housing benefit it is paid to people not to live in areas where it is too difficult to get access to jobs.

Strategically Edinburgh and Glasgow must be the 2 main job markets in the central belt. As such we should be trying to ensure their success. When we build a new town like Irvine you have the problem of how do you get jobs and decent jobs to locate their. How many jobs can we really expect to get to port glasgow and greenock. would economically it not be better to enlarge glasgow to the size that people could migrate to places where they can get access to job markets.

One thing that is noticable about england is it does it more rural out of city small towns much better than scotland. We tend to ruin the tourist potential of these areas by having mass council housing. Take places like Alexandria which given its location should be a St Andrews or North Berwick of the west type of thing.

It is a very difficult matter but the question really is how should the demographic layout be to successfully have people in high paid, high skilled employment.

One of the things I noticed is the poor train links for our central belt towns between glasgow and edinburgh into these big city job markets.
190

Keef Richards,

17/10/2008 13:02:53
Salmond's mad dream of independence is over, the shares collapse proved that beyond doubt. God Bless The Union !
191

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 13:04:57
Ugly,

It could be funded if it was applied to tax fee zones. There are other issues that dictate how and when it could be done.

Scotland needs to balance its economy a bit better than it has been to date. The Service Industries have been very successful until recently, strong regulation could take care of that. Lets not forget about HBOS and RBS buyouts around the world. I read that a bank they own in Western Australia has received an offer of 1.45 billion. Not all of these two banks operations were a failure. Not keeping the sub prime loans at arms length was the biggest and dumbest mistakes.

We need to develop zones that encourage manufacturing. Combine Tax Free with Rail Systems and better housing within the Zones. There are many other ways to make a decent income for the Government of Scotland, within a tax free zone. A decent container wharf for a start would allow us to collect customs charges and the ancillary services would produce quite a bit of income for the well being of the nation. The whiskey companies would have to relocate from London, and could export direct from a West of Scotland Trade Zone to the world. Duty would be applicable but Company Corporate taxes could be waived. The only thing that could stop us was being a full member of the EU. To me the EU tax regulations stifle aggressive business models. Selective participation would let Scotland pick the structures that best suited them.
192

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 13:07:38
Aye Keef whatever you say son. Now away and play.
193

Alan B,

17/10/2008 13:09:19
#A Better Way

One of the biggest problems the scottish economy has suffered is too high interest rates from sterling. higher interest rates have traditionally been needed in the uk due to the housing market in the south and to dampen inflation due to excessive south east economic growth. This has suffocated scotland (and north of englands economic growth).

The euro with its long time lower interest rates would be a far better match for scotlands economy.
194

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:11:26
#206 alan

Your point about the affluent areas being outside the boundaries is well made. There is surely a case for redrawing the city boundary to include area such as Bearsden and Milngavie. The people who live there certainly benefit from Glasgow's amenities.
195

Alan B,

17/10/2008 13:12:28
#connaughtboy

Eastwood aswell.
196

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 17/10/2008 13:13:06
According to one of the homeless charities Northern Rock is repossessing for properties than any of their rivals, going to court at 3 months arrears and not trying to negotiate a reasonable settlement with their borrowers. NR is after all nationalised and owned by the government.

Is this to be the fate of unfortunate mortgage holders of the other financial instiution receiving financial support - B&B, RBS, HBOS etc.?

Many of those in difficulty will be working class, but New Labour abandoned interest in helping their traditional supporters when they ceased to vote for them. Labours only ambition now is to preserve Labour in power.
197

Geoff,

sa 17/10/2008 13:17:46
the reality is that is dead easy to be wise after the fact. Neither cameron nor Salmond can claim that things would have been any different if they 'd have been in charge. I am no particular fan of Gordon Brown but he is an easy target for opportunistic attacks at this time. Ironically South Africa might fare considerably better than the US and Europe. Our economy has been well(and conservatively) run by Mboweni and Manuel. Credit screening is much stricter here and mortgages always tend to be pitched to leave some equity behind for owner and bondholder in the event of collapsing property values.
221 keef richards-God Bless the Union!
Hear hear!!
198

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:21:21
#218 george

As you allude, the problems are both political and cultural. Yes, the big Govt culture is a mill-stone round our neck. The problem is trying to reduce its size is notoriously difficult. If we could start from scratch undoubtedely we could create a smaller, more efficient Government. Unfortunately, we inherit a behemoth and trying to downsize an existing entity is so much harder. But is is possible.

This is one of the great challenges for the SNP Government, but not for this term. There are some easier hits to be sorted out first.
199

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 17/10/2008 13:29:17
Salmond? All wind and p___.
200

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 13:40:37
Fair enough Alan, but things are relevant. Chicken and egg applies here. The SNP are spending the dough needed to improve at least the main line between Glasgow and Edinburgh, by electrifying it. They are fixing our biggest road, but years of lack of funding and all that.

Thats why I mentioned the Bridge with Ireland eventually combining through Glasgow and then direct line all the way south. It might take ten years but at least the project would be on its way. The Zone I am talking about wouldnt just be a container facility. I am talking about something on the scale of the whole of the Mull of Kintyre (doesnt need to that far south). Housing would grow progressively.

Have a look at the middle east. The smaller nations there are trying their knackers off to start the same concept. Aye they have loads of dosh, but its still something that they will prigressively succeed in. Their developments are based on small service specialist in new technolgy. Engineering is a large part of that as well.

Theres a company I know about in OZ, that builds yachts up to 70 feet. They employ 1200 people and have just hit a brick wall because of the US Dollar versus the OZ Dollar. Their market is big in the US but they dont manufacture there. They will need to adapt and should move their operation to a better Dollar location. Thats the type of business that would provide a great manufacturing base, to build on. They wouldnt have to ship their Yachts from OZ to Europe and the States. West of Scotland is ideally suited. We have to get our imaginations going and get out there as a nation telling people what we could do for them. Yachts made in the EU dont have the restrictions. a few days on a transport ship gets them to Texas and Florida.

As I say, think outside the square, and sell our benefits to companies.
201

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:41:56
#219 salem

Being positive is always better than being negative.

Contrast Alex Salmond with Iain Gray.

Of course you are right, we need to sort out our own problems. Imagine a Scotland where Glasgow was performing as well as Edinburgh or (dare I say) Aberdeen. I wonder how much that would boost our economy? I have never heard anyone trying to quantify the benefits.
202

Geoff,

sa 17/10/2008 13:43:10
231 Accelerator-we're on the same page.We can but conjecture-maybe u are right,maybe not. The point though is that all we can give are reasoned opinions-not concrete facts.
God Bless the Independence of Scotland/the Union. You say potato,I say etc.
203

Geoff,

sa 17/10/2008 13:45:56
Also accelerator,Scotland is often compared to Ireland in this regard. ireland aint looking too good at present despite huge largesse from the EU over the last decades which might equate to Scotlands oil income by way of comparison.
Anyway for me its not about the economic arguments.
204

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:46:58
#220 Alan

Can I please add Ardrossan to your first list. Oh that it were a St Andrews. And so close to the beautiful Isle of Arran too !
205

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:49:11
#221 KR

An excellent contribution to the debate thank you.

Care to expand on your "theory"?
206

Geoff,

sa 17/10/2008 13:50:02
Does anyone know (without Googling it) what "coruscating" means??!
207

Keef Richards,

17/10/2008 13:54:21
The simple facts are could an independent Scotland have raised the money and saved the banks concerned from going under as Brown did.? No. End of discussion regarding independence for Scotland.
208

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:54:33
#236 Geoff

I beg to differ. As has been pointed out by better people than me, Ireland's growth over the last decade will still be far ahead of ours, even after this latest shake-down.
209

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 13:55:39
229 connaughtboy
This is perhaps where you and I differ. I don't think indepence is necessary to tackle the problems. In fact it could well be a distraction. If it does occur then we may get bogged down in issues such as who is going to be Director General of the SBC, who is going to be ambassador to Paraguay, when do we get our own entry into the Eurovision song contest etc. rather than tackling real problems. These may appear to be facetious points but I think there would be a lot of attention on these issues. Then there would be the time, effort and cost of setting up a Foreign Office with Embassies, who is going to sit at the UN and more. This, in my estimation woukd lead to more govt not less and much of this extra govt would go on fairly meaningless trappings of nationhood.

I was talking the other day about San Francisco and California. San Francisco has (the last time I checked) the highest per capita GDP of any city in the world and California is the richest state in the USA to an extent that if it were a separate country, it would have the 7th biggest economy in the world. But California is in a Union of 300 million people and is thousands of miles from the centre of govt. (Washington DC) and the centre of finance (New York). The reason for its success (as far as I can gather) appears to be the cultural aspect. It appears to be a place where success and enterprise can thrive. Moreover they can get on with things without being concerned about all the trappings of nationhood. Do many people care who sits at the UN?
210

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 13:58:02
Geoff,

I am not going to attack you, because you seem genuine and put a good case, BUT.

Dont you think that its a bit rich that you are sitting in a country that used to be run by the British against the will of the People of South Africa. You stated that Brown isnt entirely responsible for the state of the three nations economies, and then go on to praise your government ministers who did things better and didnt allow the breakdown of sensible regulations.

Firstly why was it okay for South Africa to take their Nation back from the British, yet you cheer the Union of Scotland and the other two Nations, and deny Scotlands People right to self determination.

You then go on and concede that the South Africans are doing a great job. Why isnt it okay for Scottish People to prove they can do a great job for their own kind.

Your view of things is very strange indeed. Could it be that you are a former resident of one of the three nations?. And if so, if it was so great why arent you still living here, instead of South Africa. You have made your choice and I dont criticise you. Why do you dare criticise Me and my Nation.

Please dont mate. If you live here and contribute you can say whatever you like. You should accept the fact that it is a Scottish issue, and stay out of it.

All the best Geoff.
211

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 13:58:56
#240 KR

"The simple facts are could an independent Scotland have raised the money and saved the banks concerned from going under as Brown did.?

Now Keef, that is a question not a fact.

Please explain why Brown borrowing £37bn is a reason to stop discussing independence for Scotland.

I await with interest.
212

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/10/2008 14:03:02
242 George

There is a culture in Silicon Valley that celebrates peoples' success (business, wealth).

In Scotland, it is the exact opposite.

I think we do differ on the independence issue, but hope we both agree that things cannot carry on as they are. Full fiscal autonomy would be a good first step, with independence after that.
213

Ewan M,

17/10/2008 14:13:27
Have you read anyting to day about Salmond's 'light touch' regualtion speech for the finacial sector in an Independent Scotland from 2007!!!!Up there with the Iceland speech.

He's a laughig stock and the SNP don't know what to do!!!
214

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 17/10/2008 14:14:03
Ugly, as someone who has lived in the USA, I think you are being a bit silly with your comments mate.

Firstly California is asking the federal government for 70 billion dollars to get it out of trouble. Secondly if you told the average American that they didnt need to run their own country themselves, they would either attack you or shoot you.

They care very very much who represents them, especially in the United Nations. They actually are that consumed by their own interests, they dont even know half of the countries of the World, let alone care. And they do all this out of patriotism that verges on fanatism. They wont here a bad thing about their country from anyone outside it.

Thats all Scotland wants and needs. Apathy results in lack of caring. Everybody is entitled to be aware and proud of where they come from. People work better together when they have a common cause. That cause is always their Nation and Heritage. If you doubt what I am saying have a look at the decline of subjugated aboriginals of the World mate. Most of them show the same symptoms that so many Scots display everyday of their short lifes.

Check it out mate, you might be very surprised at how something you take for granted is so important to many.
215

British Military Vet Veritas,

Glenrothes Scotia 17/10/2008 14:17:30
Wee Alex wants to blame Gordie for Scotland's financial woes! The wee bairn needs to lift his eyes from his own navel and take a look at the world outside his domain.

The man is plain daft. It's the economy, stupid.

216

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 14:29:10
249 A better Way
"They care very very much who represents them, especially in the United Nations. They actually are that consumed by their own interests, they dont even know half of the countries of the World, let alone care."

Your two comments appear to be contradictory. If they don't know about half the countries in the world, why should they give a t*ss about the UN. What percentage of the US population know who their ambassador to the UN is. I'll bet you £100 it will be less than 10%.


"Secondly if you told the average American that they didnt need to run their own country themselves, they would either attack you or shoot you"

Possibly so but I didnt say that.

"Thats all Scotland wants and needs".
You are merely projecting your own feelings onto to everybody else and assuming that they are the same as you. Do you speak for everbody in Scotland or does everybody in Scotland have to agree with you.
217

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 14:29:54
250#

Think you will find everyone is blaming Brown because he is to blame!

Just wait until the media start with him, he will run and hide like the coward he is.

218

Nevsky,

Moscow 17/10/2008 14:35:08
254 Hoots#

Slightly ironic that Broon states that the banking crisis proves that Scotland needs the union bearing in ming he is culpable.

'My failure as chancellor proves Scotland needs the UK' would be more like what he should have said...i am sure he finds it all very funny!

What is does prove is that the union is the last thing Scotland needs now and that Westminster will never look after Scotland's interests!
219

Alan B,

17/10/2008 14:38:28
#240 Keef

"The simple facts are could an independent Scotland have raised the money and saved the banks concerned from going under as Brown did.? No. End of discussion regarding independence for Scotland."

There are a number of different senarios

1. the banks would have been bailed out by joined english and scottish effort similar to that which we have just seen with France, Luxemourg and Belgium acting together to save a bank.

2. the massive scottish oil fund would bail out the banks. With PM of england Cameron writing a thankyou letter to PM Salmond for saving a UK wide bank which happens to be headquarter in scotland and also asking if the oil fund could be used to underpin the guarantee to engish depositors in english banks. With PM salmond agreeing only on a comercial basis to help our friends in the south. Graham would want some bones back as part of the deal and maybe a chess set.

3)the scottish banks being regualated would not have merged and BOS would not have to deal with the mortage debt of Halifax

4)althernatively if it has taken over halifax it would imply have bankrupted the english bank which would have been owned by BOS and not fully merged

5)the scottish banks being in the euro would have merged and bought european banks and not english ones and would be more secure due to the level of mortage debts in many of these banks.

When the english banks struggled they would have come in and bought english banks over with their low share value like Santandar. PM Cameron would have thanked PM Salmond for his help bailing our english banks. Margo would have made it a condition that she was on the board.

6)PM Brown of scotland wuold have used the anti terror laws to seize the assets of english companies to ensure scotland did not lose out. PM Mandelson would have attacked Brown for making out the english as terrorist. Salmond would have attacked brown for not being nice to our friends in the south in their hr of need.

7)PM Brown o
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Alan B,

17/10/2008 14:38:46
cont..

7)PM Brown of scotland would have tried to use the massive scottish oil fund to buy out the bankrupt english economy after the imf turned them down. Saying that he always wanted to be PM of england. Boyd is reported to have said he would consider playing for a British olympic team if Burely was not manager.
221

Mrs. Trellis,

Dartmouth 17/10/2008 14:54:20
Lots of interesting posts.. BUT it seems that almost everyone misses the point?? That the ONLY solution now HAS to address the U.S. debt situation, ( because the US dollar underwrites the world!!), The dollar, which was removed from the gold standard over 30 years ago, has finally hit the buffers.
WHY? Because the US goverment owes about 60 TRILLION DOLLARS!! and is not worth the paper it is written on at the moment. So everything in the worlds banking system has recently been a matter of faith..bit like religion really.(LOL!)

We all have to go back to basics and the Gold Standard! The value of money then has some substance that everyone can see. As apposed to the U.S. just printing the stuff.

Mrs T
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Ugly George,

Edinburgh 17/10/2008 15:01:50
258 Mrs Trellis
The dollar has strengthened agains both the euro an sterling over the past year. It may be down against othr currencies but it can hardly be described as "not worth the paper is written on"

I would be delighted if I could excange a ream of paper for 500 one dollar bills?
223

Matt there,

Somewhere 17/10/2008 15:10:58
With friends like Bring them on, Brown needs no enemas. sorry! Enemies, of course!

Though with the contents of Bring them on's posts, perhaps the word enema is more apposite?
224

Shredder,

17/10/2008 15:25:24
Good luck to the Tories (of both varieties) in their somewhat desperate attempts to convince the public that Brown's the architect of their problems rather than the failures of the global financial system.

Why didn't we hear about the failure to regulate public and private debt at the time? In the case of the nationalists, all we heard was covetous gloating about how it was time for Scotland to realise the full potential of its soundly based economy by taking its place amongst such economic titans as Ireland…and Iceland.
225

Alan B,

17/10/2008 15:44:34
#Shredder

"Why didn't we hear about the failure to regulate public and private debt at the time? "

We did. Did you never hear all the fuss about Brown breaking and fudging his own golden rule on public sector deficits. About only borrowing to invest and not consume. Are you not aware of the EU openly critising the UK for its irresponsible deficits breaking the 3% deficits rules.

"Britain is the only EU country to face censure this year"

"Eurocrats blamed the Prime Minister's plans to finance income tax cuts through extra borrowing. "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1025766/EU-warns-Prudence-Brown-Britains-budget-deficit-breaks-rules.html

"The Commission is set to send a strong political message to the UK Government on its deficit: according to the Commission’s spring economic forecast, the UK is not setting a good example of budgetary discipline. "

http://europeanfoundation.blogspot.com/2008/05/uk-to-face-european-commission.html

"The European Commission will next week open a chink in the armour of Britain’s ‘iron chancellor’ Gordon Brown over his failure to keep borrowing under control.

Brussels is expected to call for the start of excessive deficit proceedings against the UK for failing to keep public borrowing below 3 per cent of GDP.

Brussels estimates that UK borrowing reached 3.2 per cent of GDP in 2004 and 2005, and is likely to reach 3.6 per cent in the current financial year, which ends in March.

The commission had ignored Britain’s earlier deficits on the grounds that they were considered temporary, but it is now expected to call on Brown to bring borrowing back below 3 per cent by 2007. Censure by the commission would be highly embarrassing for the chancellor "

http://www.eupolitix.com/latestnews/news-article/newsarticle/brown-faces-blushes-over-eu-borrowing-rules/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/apr/29/economics.eu?gusrc=rss&feed=business

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Alan B,

17/10/2008 15:50:11
#Shredder

Date 2004:
"Chancellor Gordon Brown is in danger of breaking his economic "golden rule" because forecasts for tax revenues are too optimistic, a report has said.
Revenues will be £6bn below estimates by the end of the tax year despite the economy growing in line with forecasts, accountancy firm Ernst & Young said.

That will lead to tax increases after the next elections, the firm said.

The golden rule states that the government may only borrow to invest over the course of an economic cycle. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3752176.stm

Date 2007:
"Chancellor to break Golden Rule again"

"Economists have warned that a dismal double whammy of rising debt and slowing growth will force Chancellor Alistair Darling to ditch or fudge his predecessor's "Golden Rule", amid fears that taxes will have to rise to pay for public spending."

"To comply with the rule, the Chancellor's spending must not excede revenues over the whole of the economic cycle. Before becoming Prime Minister, Mr Brown infamously altered the starting date of the cycle, a move that enabled adherence with the self-imposed directive."

"David Kern, economic adviser to the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC), said that Tuesday's figures would eventually make further fudging necessary."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/chancellor-to-break-golden-rule-again-396170.html


Date 2004:
"The predictions follow official figures last week and a warning from Mervyn King, the Bank of England governor, who said recent budget deficits were “higher than is consistent with a sustainable position”.

The chancellor insists that the golden rule — only borrowing to fund public investment over the economic cycle — will be met. But the Ernst & Young Item club, which uses the Treasury’s model of the economy, said he was wrong. "

Professor Peter Spencer, its economic adviser, said: “Borrowing is back up and it’s very clear to me that they’re going to break the go
227

guenevere,

17/10/2008 15:50:26
If the nat's think brown's made a mess,just think what would have happened if salmond had been able to put his seperation policy into effect,he'd probably have wound up about as popular in scotland as his hero Maggie Thatcher,although she never quite succeeded in completely bankrupting the country LOL.
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17/10/2008 15:51:55
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17/10/2008 15:53:47
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Shredder,

17/10/2008 15:56:58
#269 Alan B: the "golden rule" had to be broken in the fact of unprecedented global financial turmoil. Anyone who can't recognise this as a suitable mitigating circumstance is giving new meaning to the term "blame culture".
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17/10/2008 16:03:39
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guenevere,

17/10/2008 16:03:47
272.What exactly has convinced you that its not greater forces to blame,I know bird dropping facial's are the same time,but…

273.i think what you said
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17/10/2008 16:12:02
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17/10/2008 16:15:26
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guenevere,

17/10/2008 16:15:44
276.what link? If its to AM2 then i'm sure he'll welcome your defection to the dark side as much as that cat the master named me after LMAO
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guenevere,

17/10/2008 16:18:11
correction,the cat he named my daughter after,evil g-t that he is
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danielrober,

17/10/2008 16:23:01
ALEX Salmond launched a coruscating attack on the "Downing Street downturn" yesterday, blaming Gordon Brown for taking Scotland to the "brink of recession"



Instead of accusing TV presenters of been prejudice maybe Alex.S should ask the question at Westminster. After all he is drawing down two wages. One of the wages is as a Member of the House of Commons. He can just walk in there and ask the Prime Minister any question he wants a Question time. Everyone will be there and it will on TVe.

If important questions are too be asked of the Prime Minister by Alec.S then just ask him. Whats the problem, just get on with it.
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17/10/2008 16:23:19
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guenevere,

17/10/2008 16:23:43
278.so the tory's and nats are united on this one,just know salmond will get on better with cameron than with brown,2 peas in the pod.

280.hiya,ghost of meths
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Alan B,

17/10/2008 16:25:33
#273 Shredder

The quotes i showed you and the links are from before this crisis. Try to re-read my 2 posts on the subject.

You quoted that no one was mentioning the public sector deficits. I have shown you links that the EU and media outlets were pointing this out back from 2004 onwards. That is well before the crisis.

Also the point of the golden rule was to "The golden rule states that the government may only borrow to invest over the course of an economic cycle."

That means you run up surpluses in the good times and deficits in the bad. Brown ran up the huge deficits in the good times. The concept applies for the eu 3% rule.
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17/10/2008 16:25:40
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Alan B,

17/10/2008 16:27:11
#danielrober

That is desparate. Salmond is not accepting 2 salaries. He has to draw it as that is the rules and then is donating it away.
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17/10/2008 16:27:47
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17/10/2008 16:33:45
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lulach mac gille coemgain,

17/10/2008 16:36:29
Gordon Broon - saves the pennies - shafts the people !
246

Shredder,

17/10/2008 16:40:35
#284 Alan B: I do recall hearing about this on "the World Tonight" back in 2004, but I'd be interested if you can provide evidence that either the Tories (or your precious Nats) were creating much noise calling for action back then (or, indeed, putting forward constructive suggestions).
247

guenevere,

17/10/2008 16:44:58
288.it's salmond and co who are talkikng the drivel,do they really think people are stupid enough to blame it all on brown when the same thing's happening all over the world. There again,you nat's think scot's are stupid enough to swallow your seperation policy,so maybe you do LMAO

296.you seem to know rather a lot about the sauna in roseburn,trying to copy wayne with his granny's are you
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17/10/2008 16:47:44
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17/10/2008 16:49:41
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Alan B,

17/10/2008 16:54:49
#Shredder

Do not think the nats did critise it much or if they did it was not reported too much. Salmond does seen to into public sector debt for my liking. Note his recent calls for keynesian type economic stimulus at a time when the deficits are enormous.

The tories slagged of breaking the golden rule much more but have not really been coherent as they changed leaders so regularly. During Hagues and Portillios leadership and shadow chancellor time Brown was good. During IDS time the spending spree was just starting and noone was listerning to the tories. IDS was running round glasgow housing estates trying to look at social problems and has little coherent economic policy. I think IDS by dint of what he believed would have run a tighter fiscal ship but were so quiet about it. Howard was a joke but did slag of breaking the golden rule. But they were not offering much themselves. Cameron and Osbournehave talked about only tax cuts when prudent and that with the huge deficits that would not be possible. But they have not concertedly campaigned against the deficits.

Part of the problem was the tories were in such a mess that they did not really provide much of an opposition.

I think both parties have been scared of critising labours debts due to the fact that labour would just turn round and say ok you want to cut some public expenditure.
253

Richard Lionheart,

17/10/2008 16:59:22
Gordon Brown responds by saying that he is giving the economy and getting Britain out of this mess his full attention.

Why was he not giving it his full attention for the past 11 years?

Or was it because He was giving it His full attention that we are in this mess now?

How can someone claim that the problem is Global, when the same person claims that the Boom was his own personal creation?

He is the greatest at one thing, Political opportunism. Not good at taking responsibility, as far as he is concerned when it goes wrong it always appears to be somebody else’s fault.
254

danielrober,

17/10/2008 16:59:32
# 287 Alan.B


I just thought it would be quicker and cheaper for the FM to pop on a train down to London and just ask his questions. He is still an MP after all.

By the way is there some control over donations made by MP's (all MP's), to ensure they really are making donations and not just buying political support.
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17/10/2008 17:02:08
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Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 17/10/2008 18:35:35
Of course Gordon Brown is to blame. However, equally at fault are all the political heavyweights, and the blustering lightweights, Alex, not to mention top management of any number of financial institutions. Witness the ridiculous bonuses paid out on countless dodgy deals. Anyone with a walnut for a brain could see that the situation could not be sustained, and what was done? SFA!
257

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 17/10/2008 18:41:25
More SNP bla bla bla now they are going to freeze council tax next year! But wait didnt they tell us that last year that they had done a deal with COSLA to freeze the tax for three years. But then again that was a year ago and we should have all forgotten what was said then so this will be new news.
258

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 19:16:29
Oh dear, spent so much time reading the comments that I forgot what the story is all about.

Bit like the football forums, eh?
259

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 19:19:46
Ah yes. Salmond blames Broon. That's bound to get 300 comments.

See you unionists? Don't you realise that Broon blames Salmond gets 100 comments?

Well, that just about sums up the "debate" on here.
260

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA for more WAR VOTE McCain 17/10/2008 19:19:56
Dudes .

Ur independence dream lives on, and will stay only a dream.

If the people of Scotland wish to become the paupers of Europe , then "have at it" go for Independence.

And when U are out of work and on the dole in masses . Who will U turn too . Don't waste Ur time looking towards Westminster , they are not going to give U a dime after u split form the union.

Get real Dudes . Abandon Ur pipe dream . its doomed to failure .

Relax dudes .

GC
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 19:27:47
Posted by British Cannibal shortly before the Boston Tea Party:

Dudes .

Ur independence dream lives on, and will stay only a dream.

If the people of America wish to become the paupers of Europe , then "have at it" go for Independence.

And when U are out of work and on the dole in masses . Who will U turn too . Don't waste Ur time looking towards Westminster , they are not going to give U a dime after u split form the union.

Get real Dudes . Abandon Ur pipe dream . its doomed to failure .

Relax dudes .

BC
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17/10/2008 19:39:44
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Boab,

Glasgow 17/10/2008 19:46:21
#131: GC, promise you'll keep showing up and saying, 'don't vote for independence, you're all screwed without England' every day? It helps focus the mind. Imagine Paul Revere had gone around on his horse yelling out that nonsense.
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 19:52:42
316, Boab. Do you know what Paul Revere's first words were when he got to Lexington?
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 19:57:25
Note that any reference to Americans who fought against the British are referred to as patriots - not separatists. Perhaps that is because the word "separatist" was invented for the Scots.
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17/10/2008 19:59:05
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ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 17/10/2008 20:56:18
Brown the clown drives the scottish economy down, without a frown from London Town, the traitorous clown, step down, Brown.

An Independent Scotland MAY not have been able to stop a recession (we cant know for sure), BUT, its fair to say that weve faired worse after the confetti-gate money throwing of recent times and inept financial planning and an economy based on what is a giant casino.

Deeper Recession. Part of the Union Dividend.
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17/10/2008 21:15:12
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/10/2008 22:44:49
OK, Boab, you don't know what Paul Revere's first words were when he got to Lexington. Well I shall tell you.

His first words were "Whoa, there".

272

Vaward,

Perth 18/10/2008 09:49:35
Why does Nevsky keep going on about Ireland? The Celtic tiger is a myth. Foreign multinationals control the Irish economy, they go then what? For example, just look at Irish GNP,as opposed to GDP, it tells you what a joke the Irish economy really is. Ireland has no industry whatsoever. It has no 'niche' industries, it has no prospect of any 'niche' industries as it has one of the lowest levels of R&D investment in the EU. Ireland's living standards are amongst the lowest in Western Europe, it has the highest rate of relative poverty in Western Europe.
It's no surprise at all that Ireland is the first European economy to go into recession.

Delusional!
273

democracy,

Scottish Borders 20/10/2008 03:06:58
#86 Rulesbutnotrulers,

He WAS as astute before the event as he was after, which was well documented when in the Banking sector!!

Its something YOU will NEVER be, you little hater of REAL clever people, because you struggle to even be a pseudo-intellectual, YES??????
274

democracy,

Scottish Borders 20/10/2008 03:14:17
#325 Vaward,Perth, who in gods name do you think you are rubbishing a nation as if you knew what you were talking about, what a total Richard Cranium you are!!!
275

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 20/10/2008 06:19:01
I don't get it - how come the Gnats hate Labour so much? Aren't they both socialists, both full of dull patronizing know-it-alls?

Ohhhh... I see, THAT's why!
276

Vaward,

Perth 20/10/2008 10:58:46
#327 Democracy, I may or may not know what I'm talking about, but the Irish economist, Michael J O’Sullivan, whose book I read, seemed to know what he was talking about when he raised the points I made in my post. It's all true.

 

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