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Salmond: I'd have acted to save HBOS

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Published Date: 21 September 2008
ALEX Salmond last night triggered a bitter cross-border row over the HBOS crisis by suggesting that if he had been in charge of an independent nation, Scotland's oldest bank could have been saved from takeover.
The First Minister claimed Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling stood "idly by" as a deal was done to merge HBOS with Lloyds TSB, failing to give the Scottish institution the backing it needed.

Salmond said he would have advanced billions of pounds of credit to HBOS – which employs 17,000 people north of the border – in a bid to ensure its short-term survival while the financial storm raged.

The loan of public money – possibly as much as £100bn – would have helped quell market fears that the bank did not have the cash to meet its mortgage liabilities. Salmond's aides say that in an independent Scotland, a Scottish central bank would have lent the cash to ensure the company was safe.

Salmond said: "No country can insulate itself from mergers and takeovers, but very few countries would so idly stand by and allow their oldest, key financial institution to be left in the position that HBOS was left in last week."

Salmond also claimed that he would stand a better chance of convincing Lloyds TSB bosses to keep their headquarters in Scotland if the country was independent. With full powers, Salmond says he would cut corporation tax, giving such firms an incentive to stay north of the border.

But the First Minister's comments triggered an angry response from Downing Street insiders who accused Salmond of "economic illiteracy".

Bank of England sources also said that bailout funds were available if HBOS had wanted them, but they were not called for. Senior executives at Lloyds TSB said the takeover deal was done for "commercial reasons" and not out of panic.

Darling said: "There was no request for a line of credit and, frankly, things were way beyond that. They needed a permanent commercial resolution and that is what we achieved."

In another development yesterday, the US government revealed it is preparing to spend $700bn (£382bn) buying up "bad" mortgages as part of a massive financial bail-out to tackle the credit crisis.

The US Treasury is proposing the fund to buy back a large proportion of the bad debt in the US mortgage market. Business insiders fear the total cost of the bail-out could rise to as much as $1 trillion (£545bn) or $1,000,000,000,000.

The row over HBOS intensified yesterday as one MSP said she would contact police and ask them to investigate claims there had been an abuse of market rules as the merger was being discussed.

Keith Skeoch, chief executive of Standard Life Investments, said there had been a delay before the talks were formally announced, a possible breach of stock market rules which dictate that a formal announcement must be made. Had such an announcement been made before Wednesday morning, many believe that the sudden drop in HBOS's share price which triggered the takeover might have been averted.

Lothian MSP Margo MacDonald yesterday said she would be contacting the police. She said: "It has been alleged that the stock market rules have been broken. If the merger had been made public, HBOS's shares would never have fallen as they did. All we know for

sure is that now this company will make billions of pounds of cash from rationalising jobs at a time when people are really facing the pinch."

Last night, Salmond also said that the merger was still not a "fait accompli" until shareholders had given their approval. He said that the merger – which was only disclosed through the BBC on Wednesday as HBOS's shares fell through the floor – was "highly unusual".

However, Salmond said that after the Financial Services Authority had declared that HBOS was in good stead last week, the Government should have backed it up. "The expectation would be that it would be backed up… your financial institutions should stand behind that institution. That is what they are there to do."

He said the job of persuading Lloyds TSB to stay in Scotland "would be a lot easier" if Scotland were independent. "If I was able to go in and point out that corporation tax was significantly lower in Scotland than it was in London then I suspect the discussions would end in a handshake, and wouldn't take all that long."

Salmond's claims were attacked by Downing Street. One source said: "Alex Salmond is either economically illiterate or he knows he is being disingenuous. The facts of the matter are that there were fundamentals in the bank that had to be addressed. He knows that without the UK Government a great Scottish institution would have gone under."

Treasury officials say there was no alternative to the merger, insisting such was the condition of HBOS, it had to make a deal. But that was disputed last night by the Bank of England's former chief adviser, Sir Charles Goodhart, who said that if the Government had not been so slow to extend its special liquidity scheme – which offers emergency cash for stricken banks – HBOS might have refinanced its mortgages and avoided having to be taken over.

The focus will now shift to attempts to save HBOS jobs in Scotland, as Salmond chairs a summit with the Scottish Council for Development and Industry (SCDI). On Tuesday, Salmond will hold private talks with executives from Lloyds TSB. In what may be seen as a snub to Salmond, Scotland on Sunday understands that Lloyds TSB chairman Sir Victor Blank will not attend the talks.

Salmond is to call for key functions of the new super-bank, including its lucrative corporate and investment wings, to remain in Scotland. Writing in Scotland on Sunday today, Salmond says: "One of the reasons that the Scottish economy to date has been so much stronger in resisting financial downturn is precisely because of the successful companies supported by innovative investment from the Bank of Scotland."

Scottish Secretary Des Browne said that he, too, would be working this week to secure Scottish jobs. "I want to reassure the families of those who work at HBOS and Lloyds TSB who fear for their jobs that the Government is doing all we can to help," he said. "I am in discussions with colleagues and we can all take some comfort from the commitment to keep the Edinburgh headquarters and focus on preserving Scottish jobs. It is important that we all focus on that to focus on the global economy challenges as they are."

The full article contains 1104 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 00:05:15
And Nero fiddled whilst Rome Burned.

Alex Salmond would have presided over HBOS going bust.

We are lucky that Lloyds TSB was there to save it.
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 00:07:40
As the article says......

"Alex Salmond is either economically illiterate or he knows he is being disingenuous. The facts of the matter are that there were fundamentals in the bank that had to be addressed. He knows that without the UK Government a great Scottish institution would have gone under."
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 00:11:19
#4 I hope the Scotsman has tracked your IP address and reports you to the police.
4

Jock MacSprog,

21/09/2008 00:13:31
AS likes to deal in "ifs" in the imaginary world that he lives in. Well I suppose "if" I were the king of spain, I'd live in a nice palace, but alas I'm not and not likely to every be. AS would have done something "if" he was in charge of an independent nation, well he isnt and its not a devolved matter, so he has nothing real to say or do about it. Its like the mayor of Tillicoultry saying that if he was the PM he would do this or that. Its what sad people with no power do, they pretend. The powers that be in London running the real UK govt must just chuckle with bemusement when they here tripe like this. Makes one rather embarrassed to be Scottish with a troll like this in charge of the region.
5

Charles Linskaill,

Again! waiting for DYW me a taxi 21/09/2008 00:16:13



'Yeah Yeah'!,......

Broon would of saved the HBOS maybe, but more the case,.....

'Pigs might fly'
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 00:21:04


#4,

That was a very inapt comment.

7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 00:25:13


God! The Scotsman is on the ball tonight!

Sorry #4 that wasn't you anymore.
8

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21/09/2008 00:25:57
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9

,

21/09/2008 00:27:39
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10

,

21/09/2008 00:28:52
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11

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 21/09/2008 00:34:30
And all this time he has been telling us that he has created stability , that he has put an end to boom and bust, that the economy is better placed to weather the economic slowdown.

First sign of trouble and he is forced to nationalise Northern rock.

Next time he feeds HBOS to the vultures. AND rewrites his market competition rulebook to allow a "superbank".

If this is stability ,then I must be The Screaming Lord Sutch.

I am just dreading what is going to happen next.
12

Highland Property Bubble,

Inverness 21/09/2008 00:45:34
What a load of complete tosh from wee Eck.
HBOS was in effect facing bankruptcy due to its dire financial situation and was saved from going under by Lloyds.
Wee Eck has repeatedly claimed that the headquarters of the new organization should be situated in Edinburgh. Just who is he trying to kid?
It makes me feel ashamed to be Scottish when our so-called "first" minister is spouting such nonsense. He is an embarrassment to our country.
13

,

21/09/2008 00:50:54
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14

Senga Jean,

21/09/2008 00:52:01
Alex Salmond is not only correct he is also worthy of respect. Bank of Scotland was "taken over" by Halifax and that was a disaster. The BOS moved from responsible banking to barrow boy selling and "OUCH" Scotland deserves better. Scotland deserves INDEPENDENCE.
15

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21/09/2008 00:52:04
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16

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 21/09/2008 00:54:00
For three days now I've been saying it.
OK, you've done the rhetoric thing, Alex. Broon is covering in the corner like a wee mousie.
Now call in the cops. There are a lot of London suits who should be cleaning motorway merges on Kenny MacAskill's chain gang.
17

Highland Property Bubble,

Inverness 21/09/2008 00:54:59
Joe-kerr Are you on drugs?
18

Jock MacSprog,

Embra 21/09/2008 00:55:09
15, you can always tell when a Nat is flustered, they accuse everyone of not being Scottish, or in any case, not as Scottish as they are. But they can never actually define what is Scottish. What a joke this Northern Area of Britain has become. Very sad.
19

Nellie,

Liverpool 21/09/2008 00:56:39
Hmmm I wonder if Alex would care to bail out all the estate agents suffering greatly from the collapse of the housing market and the furniture and carpet sellers, and their manufacturers, because they are falling over since too few people are moving house and refurnishing? What's good for the goose ...
20

Willie,

21/09/2008 00:57:32
I view with concern MSPs and MPs constantly using the Police to further their political aims.
If and its a big if the rules have been broken Margo would be better referring any complaint to the FSA, but of course that doesn't have the same ring to it.
The Police are not there to do the bidding of MSPs they are there to apprehend criminals.
21

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21/09/2008 00:59:46
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21/09/2008 01:01:35
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23

subrosa,

21/09/2008 01:04:53
There must be some dodgy Scotch being poured in Manchester tonight with all these labourites appearing with their drivel.

Don't worry though comrades, things will only get worse.
24

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21/09/2008 01:06:56
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25

Richardinho,

21/09/2008 01:29:35
#20 And you can always tell a Unionist self-hater-they start off criticizing a single poster on a message board and quickly jump to denouncing the entire country in their usual defeatist manner.
26

Forward not Back,

21/09/2008 01:32:14
Even with the apparent economic might of an independent Scotland, the hedge funds would have triumphed. They knew they had a one way bet and would have poured trillions in to ensure they won.

What cost HBoS was the timing of the American bailout. If that had been in place earlier in the week, HBoS would still exist in its present shape, albeit a lot weaker.
27

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA for more WAR VOTE McCain 21/09/2008 01:37:59
Salmond: I'd have acted to save HBOS

Like Dudes.
How would Salmond have acted ?
He has no money and its all about money ...DUHHhhhhh

There are no deep pockets in Scotland to bail out anyone or anything.

But there is bunches of whinning and squawking usless rethoric.

Suck it up dudes and move on

HBOS...R.I.P.

GC
28

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21/09/2008 02:10:59
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29

S'me,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 02:12:52
Don't embarras yourself Alex.
30

Marky Bhoy,

Scotland 21/09/2008 02:26:16

All if's and but's

But no doubt a Scottish Government with full powers would have done more to save the bank

Brown and Darling are the Scottish version of Marshall Petain

No we wont shoot you but just F**k off quietley into the sunset

Both are guilty of treason
31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 02:26:39



GalacticCannibal ~32,


Got to admit, that 'IS' about the size of it!

"All's Done and Dusted"

NO Point in the 'crying over spilt milk'!,...

IT WONT CHANGE A THING NOW!!

'Like it or Lump it' Get Real and "move-on"!!
32

Guga II,

Rockall 21/09/2008 02:35:26
Once again Maggie Broon has sold Scotland and the Scottish people down the river. I hope all the people who are going to lose their jobs because of him will remember how he sold them out.

Vidkun Quisling was also a "son of the manse".

33

FORT RANSID,

21/09/2008 02:37:13
#33 McPravda blog,(perhaps)


Careful with the gratuitous insults Tommy

Paul Nicholas is not dead - just resting

Have you proofed your base against attack from rapidly uploaded cyclic data?

http://fiddlefuddle.blogspot.com/
34

a voice in the wilderness,

south america 21/09/2008 02:52:13
After suffering economic hardship "banana republic style",Bonnie Scotland really needs to take a real good look; at all of its institutions.
If it doesn't want to become a 3rd World economy.
Remember "a hoose divided by itself will fall"
Asylum seeker,criminal element,corrupt politicians and WHITE COLLARED DISHONESTY...will bring an otherwise civilised country to its bare archie.
Act now ,be tough and just or pay the consequences.

RBS BE WARNED...your staff are already incompetent;speaking from past dealings.
35

a voice in the wilderness,

south america 21/09/2008 02:52:16
After suffering economic hardship "banana republic style",Bonnie Scotland really needs to take a real good look; at all of its institutions.
If it doesn't want to become a 3rd World economy.
Remember "a hoose divided by itself will fall"
Asylum seeker,criminal element,corrupt politicians and WHITE COLLARED DISHONESTY...will bring an otherwise civilised country to its bare archie.
Act now ,be tough and just or pay the consequences.

RBS BE WARNED...your staff are already incompetent;speaking from past dealings.
36

Forward not Back,

21/09/2008 02:58:09
Oh, and BTW, if Salmond had had the power to 'save' HBoS (nationalise it), the sharks would have moved on to RBS.

Then, assuming Scottish taxpayers would have stomached this, they would have turned their guns on National Australia Bank, owners of Clydesdale. What would Mr Salmond have done in this situation?
37

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/09/2008 03:05:34
Oh yeah!! A wee bit late - Halifax took it over years ago!

Anyway should someone tell fatty king on the Gnats that the Bank of Scotland (my bank) was founded by an Englishmen. Hate to think what that'd do to his enthusiasm for HBOS.
38

Marky Bhoy,

Scotland 21/09/2008 03:11:55

43/

Stephen what is it like to despise your own country so much
39

FORT RANSID,

21/09/2008 03:20:31
#43

Qnionists are McThick

Gnats don't hate the Saxons

They hate YOU

And i can't say that i blame them

i would vote for them myself

but only if they advocatethnicleansng
40

FORT RANSID,

21/09/2008 03:26:58
hmm salmond did berate the gruesome twosome for "standing idly by"

mayhap there is hope for him yet

41

Guga II,

Rockall 21/09/2008 03:31:19
#43.

Why do you insist on spouting rubbish?

The Bank of Scotland was founded by an Act of the Scottish parliament in 1695.
42

Yankee girl,

USA 21/09/2008 03:38:50
Not too sure what Salmond could have really accomplished with his £100bn government loan, a mere band-aid in the face of an issue that is inter-connected at a global level. Our govt. and yours are trying all these temporary stop-gap measures, lets all hope at least some of it will work!!
43

,

21/09/2008 03:48:41
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44

Willie Macleod,

Wick 21/09/2008 03:50:49
#48 Yankee girl At last someone who understands and responds to the issue at hand.
45

Yankee girl,

USA 21/09/2008 04:00:38
#50 Thank you, Willie Macleod. All I really know is fear at this point!

I've been to Wick, by the way. Many years ago.
46

The Pict.,

Canada 21/09/2008 04:01:35
Once again the loosers, cap in hand, curry the favour of their English er British, masters. BIG Eck is the only leader standing up for Scotland while the 'canny dae that' unionists English Lackies laugh as they are happy that once again the English er British screwed Scotland.
Independence for Scotland will make sure that Scotland is for the people of Scotland. Good news for the unionists....You can go and live in England.
Slaite mhath.
47

Willie Macleod,

Wick 21/09/2008 04:26:26
#51There is nothing to fear but fear itself as someone said anyway When were you in Wick
48

Yankee girl,

USA 21/09/2008 04:34:43
#53 I was in Wick in 1994, I believe. Wasn't Caithness Glass there? I visited it and was completely fascinated.
49

Willie Macleod,

Wick 21/09/2008 04:56:13
#54 Yankee girl Sorry to say Caithness Glass closed down in Wick a few years ago.

I hope the you enjoyed your time in Wick and you will come back to Caithness sometime.

All the best Willie
50

Walter Ego,

Durness 21/09/2008 05:03:11
What a chancer. The people of Scotland now see the Blessed Alex for what he is - a party political opportunist who puts self and party before the national interest. I thought that the SNP were meant to be different.
51

donald,

glasgow 21/09/2008 05:14:14
The Bank of Scotland was a Williamite Unionist bank. The RBS was a Jacobite and anti Unionist bank.

The Scottish Trustee Savings Bank was nationalised from London and came backs a privatised English bank. Halifax ripped out the marble and oak fittings from the BoS and replaced it with tatty chipboard spiv counters in the fewer branches remaining. No more could you contact the local branch manager for trusted advice. Instead you had to phone a call centre person in Yorkshire who hadn't a clue about anything and was more concerned with trying to sell you dodgy Arfur Daly deals. Their cold calling was about as useful as a Clegg on the phone.
52

camster,

E Kilbride 21/09/2008 05:22:39
The UK property market party is over and it is time to move on. Scotland has one global bank RBS and there is no room for two. It would be much better if Alex spent his time worrying about cutting business rates. It is now over a year since the SNP came to power and I still don't see a clear strategy to get the economy moving.

53

somerferg,

perth 21/09/2008 05:32:33

Losing the will to live when this thread is full of clowns yapping on about visiting Wick and slagging off Alex Salmond for doing what exactly - oh yes standing up for Scotland and critising the blessed Ma Broon and her wee lapdug Darling. Just as well I understand that the majority are wee monkeys with red rosettes.
54

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21/09/2008 05:36:24
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55

W Smith,

Middle East 21/09/2008 05:51:11
Oil-less Singapore, like other asian countries, got hit with the financial crisis around '97/'98 thanks to the devaluation of the Thai bhat.

Oil-less Singapore came out of the financial crisis faster than the surrounding countries thanks to the huge financial reserves, which stand today at around 300 billion pounds.

Some of this money was ploughed into large construction projects that helped the economy through the bad times.

Pretty simple strategy based on granny-type financial advice that says you have to save for a 'rainy day'.

Unfortuanetly this type of thinking isn't big amongst Scottish politicians or Scottish journalists who always become experts after the event.

Singapore's projected economic growth for 2008 has been downgraded to 'only' 4.0% due to the current economic crisis.

Kind of says it all about how Scotland and the UK is managed.
56

terry osser,

morden 21/09/2008 05:56:17
boycott rowling
57

winzip12,

Klein Meckelsen 21/09/2008 06:10:29
Hope all of you with advance orders for The Tales of Beedle the Bard will be cancelling them now......
58

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 06:25:16
64

So what? what does it matter what Scotlands GDP is while its in the union? Scotland exists on the money its gets from the Barnett formula the rest goes to the treasury doesnt it?
Singapore doesnt have to hand over its entire national income to another country in order to get some of it back to exist on so who's better off?
59

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 06:50:32
67

Thats right numbnuts 100% of our income tax goes to the treasury where else does it go?
Who collects our income tax?
Our VAT?
Our inheritance tax?
Our TV licence?
Our N S resourse tax?
Our Road Tax?
Our capital gains tax?
Our Corporation tax?

Where does it all go? let me give you a clue it begins with L and ends in ondon.

And as for the rest is this more government derived data and stats?
The same sourse that gives us our honest unemployment figures our honest inflation figures and our honest immigration figures?

GTF ya party political clown.

60

Kenny A,

21/09/2008 07:05:49
47 Guga

The bank was founded by an Englishman and The bank of England by a Scotsman.

However your comments about son of the manse ring true, was Wendy Alexander also a son or daughter (I am confused about that creature), also not one.

Salmond could have done nothing and would have been better saying nothing.
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:08:40
70

Meaningless waffle you just cant get around the fact that Scotland exists on the Barnett formula while handing over its national income to the treasury and all the lies bullsh*t and made up stats isnt going to be able to hide THAT FACT.
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:10:24
70

And by the way AM2 why dont you come out from behind yer multi logons?
63

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:12:16
72

Been doon this road at least twice now ya wee troll.
The LSE is legislated partly by Scotland as well as England unless Scotland gives up that right willingly.
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:13:34
74

Lies and bullsh*t should make any reasonable person feel uncomfortable you however seem to revel in them.
65

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 07:13:48
Can we get Salmond over to Switzerland quickly?

We need someone to fix the Hadron Collider.

Salmond can do anything. Can't he?
66

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:14:16
75

Yes of course a troll by any other name.
67

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 07:17:37
If Salmond has a spare £100m to bail out a bank which operates predominantly in England and Wales, can he use some of the cash to provide the promised 1000 police officers?
68

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21/09/2008 07:19:52
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69

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:21:35
70

I do hope your not including NS oil in those figures for Englands exports and leaving them out of Scotland are you?
70

Kenny A,

21/09/2008 07:24:08
67 Richard

Interesting comments, looked in the mirror and saw no problem, Good looking type that I am. Scotland is not the crime capital of the EU, parts of Scotland in the central belt are as you mentioned Glasgow. Statistics can be made to look like what you wish them to. The North of Scotland is about the most crime free area on Earth which you failed to mention.

As for the fantastic wealth of Scotland thats simple it has all gone to Westminister and London. The statistics that cropped up now and again showed London was doing well but it was all finance not manufacturing related. Now that greed and reality are coming home to roost and the dole ques are filling up with bankers I wonder what will be said next.

As for Scotland being the oldest part of the UK very true both Geographicaly and from the human point. Old people get old because they have tended to live a long time, cant think of anyother way to get old. In order to live a long time you are usualy healthy. So what are you on about. Mabey the English would get older if they were not stabbing teenagers to death on a regular basis.

Scotland can exist without England, I doubt if the opposit can be said. England is very dependant on Scotland and Wales for power and water not to even mention oil.

As to figures mentioned by other posters smake and bloo-dy mirrors.
71

Kenny A,

21/09/2008 07:27:28
81 Richard

time to sink you for good, yes Scotland is small by population, but you have been run by scotts, the army is heavily scottish as is the navy, most english dont even like the english. england is a mess and i dont like messes.
72

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 07:28:57
Salmond is a bit like the Lib Dems.

He will never be in a position of power (apart from a 1 seat majority in a Mickey Mouse Talking Shop) so he can promise anything he likes.

It will never be put to the test.
73

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:32:40
81

"You just can't argue facts,you say Scotland has all this wealth,what wealth?"

Point to the post where I made that statement or implication even?

Scotland has its own income which it hands over to the Westminster government in exchange for some of it back derived from a formula based on the UK population ratio
Thats all I have claimed today so stop yer lying and yer waffling if you have any conviction about what you are posting and are not really here as a wind up troll.

If you believe in anything you post why do you have to hide behind lies and waffle?

"Your SNP own figures say,without something called oil found in the North Sea you get £10bn back more than you pay in."

Really show me?
Without NS oil Scotland only generates 20 billion in income is that right? must be as our last barnett formula derived gift from London was 30bn.

So Scotland only generates 20bn per annum from all of its taxation including business and corporation VAT etc less NS revenue? while similar sized countries without oil can generate hundreds of billions?
And on top of all that havent you already claimed on another blog today that Scotlands GDP increaces by 4% per annum?

Your starting to trip over your own lies this early in the blog.

74

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:34:54
85

Dont see any real details or proof either just a number plucked from your imagination.
75

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA: for more WAR VOTE McCain 21/09/2008 07:36:07
Hey dudes .

We attacked IRAQ who did not attack us. But the evil Bush had his way.
And so far, the US taxpayer has been ripped off to the tune of 700 billion dollars prosecuting the WAR in IRAQ.

This week the US tax payer will be ripped off again , for another 700 billion dollars to bail out Wall Street criminals , who wallow in greed up to their lying eyeballs.

The saddest part of my country is, that possibly 150 million + Americans are poorly educated . never read a book , can not spell English, and are so complacent they are stupid.

They want everything for nothing and rely on staged sound bites on TV to tell them the earth is not flat.

All this financial corruption on Wall Street is way over their empty redneck heads.

But wait dudes, the NFL is just round the corner, and Hannah Montana age 15, made $76 million dollars in 2007, and she has a 20 year old boyfriend. Very important stuff..... And Britney Spears sister Jamie (16) had her first baby.

Not forgetting Miss Barbie Doll Flim Flam Sarah Palin, who could be the Pres of the USA , if McCain is elected but croaks during his inauguration, while he is holding the Bible.

Happy hour is a chilled Margarita with rimmed sea salt.

Don't panic dudes

We dumb American taxpayers are easily ripped off by the evil pols. in Washington. But maybe one day we will revolt and enough is enough,

GC (still smiling)
76

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 07:37:06
Did anybody see the Gaelic channel on Friday Night?

BBC 2 still showed 2 hours of Gaelic Programs at the same time.

What a joke.

All the crofters and sheep farmers now have their own channel, but they are still forcing this nonsense on everybody else via one of the main channels.
77

John S,

21/09/2008 07:39:09
Why is the UK (English)dominated Parliament desperate to keep Scotland within the UK ? Why this fixation with Scotland why not just tell us to p*** off and let us decide our own future ?
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
78

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 07:39:13
Salmond didn't have the fight or bottle to stop the other parties clubbing together and voting for trams and him to use his executive powers (as he could have) and overturned the vote.

Easy to say has the fight to take on banks but his record in adversity doesn't suggest he does.
79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:41:25
93

So what is Scotlands present GDP figure? and how does it tie in with it only being able to generate 20bn withour NS oil revenue?
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:42:16
95

Got tired of being ignored as Rufus already?
81

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:47:26
98

"The LSE us under the authority of the UK parliament. So your sentence only make sense in the context of "our" 59 MPs in that parliament"

Really find that in a constitutional law book did you or did you just make that up yet again?
82

Calgacas,

21/09/2008 07:49:59
73

Definately the drivel spouting ranter AM2.

83

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:51:07
99

Oh thats right just ignore the 20 year bloody conflict in Northern Ireland and the continuing fight for independence by political means within Stormont.
And of course Plaid Cymru is just a figmant of the imagination.
Now yer just being a prat.
84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:52:02
101

What gives it away?
85

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:53:22
104

When has he ever had the political power to close the door before or after the horse bolted? that only exists with full independence and certainly wouldnt exist under any fake federation set up.
86

John S,

21/09/2008 07:56:14
#99 In the EU an independent Scotland would have a veto plus more seats in the EU Parliament.
87

Queen D,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 07:58:31
I'm just sooo impressed by all you clever people who appear to be sooo informed about investments ,share buying/selling and banking in general that you can criticisize the FM and the boss of RBS , giving them advice on what they should be doing and saying.

I take it you are all in high positions within the banking sector and make mega bucks at the expense of the client base?
I'm even more impressed that as such you can spend time as bloggers on newspaper site spreading your wit and wisdom before the stupid and clueless like myself.

It's really kind of you all to let the enfeebled in on banking history and banking future.

However, I do hope I offend no-one by saying I think I'll let Mr Salmond be the final arbiter on this one , along with his pal from RBS.
88

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 07:59:44
103

Idiot boy constitutionally we are in a union of equals not in reality of course but in this case it matters.
Scotland and England constitutionally share legislation over parliament and its responsibilties thats the act of union for you now stop being a dick get a hold of some real facts before you play with the big boys.
When the UK Parliament disolves and reforms as 2 seperate parliaments the legislation over the UK assets will have to be thrashed out in an agreement between the two parties including the LSE.
Some including the LSE may even have to be shared.
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:00:56
108

How about answering some outstanding questions before asking for answers to new ones?
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:03:47
108

Thats right and to prove it every bank on the planet within countries with populations of 5 million and less have all been taken over by bigger banks.
91

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:07:07
113

Southern Ireland as they prefer to be called didnt get their share of the UK national debt.
And if Scotland did would it be calculated using something similar to the barnett formula? ie on population ratio?
92

Kenny A,

21/09/2008 08:07:54
108 Richard

Good point. Why was the boss of the RBS in the USA invited to meet with the regulators after the Lehmans collapse. After all the RBS is only one of the biggest banks in America, oops Scotland and we dont even have a population of 5 million. To put a drop of oil on the troubled waters of your soul RBS was founded by an Englishman.

Now to answer your question in point 108 it is as big as it is. Go forth young man and have your actimel. Dont think its Scottish so thee should be safe from the foul contamination that eminate from North of the Border.
93

John S,

21/09/2008 08:08:49
Norway is an independent country and it has used its oil to create the Norwegian Petroleum Fund:
The initial investment of $300 million was made in the spring of 1996.
The fund was valued at $387.3 billion in March 2008, Norway's central bank reported.15/04/2008
Estimated worth US$563.7 billion by the end of 2009 which equates to $119,936 for every person living in Norway.
In the present financial storm, economic analysts describe Norway as a safe haven.
Aftenposten- 17 Sep 2008
Haven't they done well for a country with a population of 4.7 million.
94

Calgacas,

21/09/2008 08:18:47
105

Rather obvious to those of superior intellectual disposition, idiot boy.

The big boys say if you do not understand , no point explaining.
95

Mikey,

21/09/2008 08:34:57
Like the proverbial ostrich with it's head in the sand, the onionists still spout drivel and refuse to see the facts!

The problem with the Thatcherites is that they have no contingency plans for when Scots vote for thirty Natinal party Mps at the next Brit election! Like the aforesaid ostriches, they just refuse to believe it!

Now English people like Richard1, I can understand. He's an English nationalist with and English education, so we can't expect any sense from him, but the so called Scots who are Lieboors drivelmeisters?

What will you all do when independence comes? Will you stay in Scotland and work to make it a great 21st century state or will you, like the robber barons of 1707, take the high road to London, like rats JOINING a sinking ship?

The Scots onionists on this board remind me of the senior crew on the Titanic who, even after she was down by the head, REFUSED to believe their ship was sinking!
96

thinking,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:36:10
Four points
1.'Keith Skeoch, chief executive of Standard Life Investments, said there had been a delay before the talks were formally announced, ... Had such an announcement been made before Wednesday morning, many believe that the sudden drop in HBOS's share price which triggered the takeover might have been averted.'
If they were already in talks how come it was the drop in shares that triggered the takeover?
2. 'the loan of public money – possibly as much as £100bn'
For 17000 jobs. How much is that per person?
3. BOS was already tied up with the Halifax, a much bigger English institution
4. IF BOS's young, inexperienced, 'Boss' hadn't changed the bank's direction they would have ridden this economic crisis.
97

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 21/09/2008 08:36:40
Oh dear!

http://www.scottishmediamonitor.com/features.cfm
98

Nikostratos,

21/09/2008 08:37:18
There goes Alex all delusional again and again. Nobody goes bust in a Independent scotland......no unemployment, no ill health. fully funded care for elderly, no crime etc etc .

just one question what business did Alex actually start up and run?
99

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:37:36
121

Raising alarms and taking action aint the same thing besides everybody knew it was happening or going to happen but most folk expected the UK government to act which they didnt instead the got involved in secret negociations with Lloyds and HBOS and there is a question of a delay in their announcement of the take over while shares dived.
Dont you read the papers? or listen to the news?
100

Nikostratos,

21/09/2008 08:41:20
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2450053.0.0.php



ALEX SALMOND'S ATTACK on the "short-selling spivs" who forced the merger of Scotland's oldest bank has backfired after it emerged that his chief economic adviser's firm profits from the controversial trading practice.


you have to laugh remind me what did Alex say? eh snp drones
101

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:42:39
117

Dont be a tool the act of union is a union between the Parliaments of Scotland and Westminster.
If either Parliament disolves the union then the union no longer exists and the parliament seperates to its constituent parts.
Changing yer logon doesnt hide the same stupidity or waffling bullsh*t.
102

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:45:14
118

Constitutional law and political agreement not to mention legal precedent.
You really should go over to the beano forum or something lets face it this isnt your thing at all.
103

suchaparcelofrogues,

21/09/2008 08:46:40
120

I was being sarcastic.
104

John S,

21/09/2008 08:50:09
The only time Scotland and the UK will be equal is when both are full members of the EU when they will each have a veto.
105

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 08:51:07
#121 Rules

A good point. I'm maybe wrong but I don't recall any public utterances by The Semi-divine Eck on HBoS' dodgy business model. Can he tell us, even, if he warned them privately I wonder.

And I don't hear much comment from the Nats about the current state of one of their beloved small Nordic countries, Iceland. A couple of the banks their have been as rash and greedy in their expansion and assumption of debt and are also in a pretty perilous state. And Iceland, we are reminded ad nauseum, is one of the richest countries in the world. Maybe not for long.
106

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 21/09/2008 08:54:34
Good for you Alex, I'd trust you more than those snake oil salesmen that are the Liebore Party.

Good to see the Unionist numpties with their knickers in a twist.
107

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:56:10
133

Wasnt a good point at all he was originally asking why AS didnt do something now its watered down to why he didnt say something as if that would have made any difference.
I dont see the Icelandic governement trying hard to sell them off though do you?
108

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 08:57:27
131

So you have finally decided to stop even pretending to be troll now good for you you were terrible at it.
109

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 09:04:56
#135 Mr. Rogues

No, the point I agree with is that AS is, as usual, making cheap Nationalist points, it would appear with the benefit of hindsight but really, not at all. I can't believe a man as well-connected as the First Minister doesn't and didn't know the state of HBOS' finances, yet I don't recall him saying anything about it in public.

And my point about Iceland was to highlight the stupidity of the Nats' mantra that being a small country is inherently a good thing.
110

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 09:08:48
131# So, the Italians "are pretty poor compared to a lot of EU countries...."?

Why don't you log onto the Italian Government website and you will learn that our fellow members of the E.U. are doing very nicely, thank you!

Italy may not be a German powerhouse but it has fine public services, especially in health and education,
and amongst the highest State Pension and child and family benefits in the E.U. Unlike here, Italy is a family-orientated nation and looks after its citizens well from the cradle to the grave.

It may have had more governments than failing banks in the past 50 years but it doesn't faze ordinary Italians who just get on with their high quality standard of:
la dolce Vita!
111

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 09:10:52
#137 sm753

You really should get your facts right before going into lecture mode. Your so-called United Kingdom of Great Britain was created in 1603, not 1707, and that was just GB, not the UK of GB. The UK didn't come into existence until the Union with Ireland.
112

danbob,

21/09/2008 09:16:25
So Alex would have loaned a bank £100s of billions of scotish taxpayers money. And where would this money have come from? Good god he and his coherts get all excited about the possibility of there being just £5 billion a year that could be saved in some kind of oil wealth saving fund. The man is of the Nick Clegg mold, he can promise the world because he knows he will never have to deliver. This particular emperor has no clothes.
113

Heed thi baw,

21/09/2008 09:20:11
Oh Alex - what a clown and charleton you are.

You can't even find £400 million to plug the hole in your LIT proposal but all of a sudden you have £100's billions to bail out out HBOS.

You are a joke and an embarrassment.

Salmond is clambering over the HBOS debacle purely to find some form of political capital. The truth is, Salmond has done sod all to save HBOS. He's a disgrace.
114

boudica,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 09:20:18
Wee Eck would`ve ? could`ve? Once again Wee Eck shows us what he is ..a " Chanty Rasstler" of the first order..who would he have asked for Financial Aid for his imaginary " Rescue Package? ...Would it have been his Pen Pals in Iran or Zimbawe, maybe Mr Saeed could`ve got him some backers to save the HSOB ..Wee Eck would sell Scotland to anyone who as a disagreement with the UK and I mean anyone ...
115

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 09:21:02
Salmond is right of course a usual. Even the former head of the Bank of England agrees.

As usual the gleeful sneering and sniping from the unionists when anything constructive is said OR any alternative is mentioned other than that of the Unionist line.

So who is lying, the Bank of England saying that HBOS was secure with unlimited credit or Darling who disputes this and states the Bank would have gone under?

Someone is lying
116

,

21/09/2008 09:35:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
117

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 09:36:46
#144 Nevsky

I totally agree - there is a very large smelly fish about here somewhere, it just dosent stack up.

What is clear is that what Brown or Darling says cannot be trusted.

AS on the other hand is actually a senior economist and has the Scotland's economic interests at heart.

Darling and Brown are prepared to rum Scotland's economy down for their own narrow political agenda.

Someone is lying
118

,

21/09/2008 09:42:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
119

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 09:42:52
#145

You are ignorantly wrong.

This problem has been caused by poor regulation because of incompetence by Brown and Co. Just because the largest economy in the world (the US) has similarly poor regulation does not excuse the incompetence of Brown and Co.

It's quite bizarre that you be-moan the lot of mom and pop investors whilst excusing the conduct of the regulator.

In an independent Scottih government would recognise the primacy of this sector to our economy and regulated accordingly.


120

Heed thi baw,

21/09/2008 09:45:14
#144 Nevsky and #146 Dougie Douglas

You're a pair of clowns, hence the reason you reside outside Scotland. You love this wonderful nation so much, you decided to leave it.

The Lloyds TSB takeover cost the UK taxpayer nothing, it saved the bank from collapse and will secure jobs (not all granted). Salmonds proposal is that the Lloyds deal is wrong and that the Scottish (not UK taxpayer) would have invested £100's of billions to prop this bank up. Can you explain why that is better for HBOS and the Scottish taxpayer?
121

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 09:47:11
# Dougie

Still lecturing us about the benefits of leaving the Union from Australia, I see. Still no plans to come back and contribute I take it?
122

Clive Hamblin,

21/09/2008 09:49:27
Another example of AS working for the greater glory of AS rather than the greater glory of Scotland?
123

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 09:49:34
#149 Heed

Obviously the stench of Connery-like hypocrisy struck us both t the same time!!
124

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 09:57:44
137

What an utter tool rewriting history doesnt change it.
As you said the merger of the Scottish and Westminster parliaments were joined in 1707 so when Ireland was annexed into the union against its will in 1801 in other words no act of union for them they were annexed into both the Scottish and Westminster joint parliaments as stated in the act of union of 1707 not just the English parliament as that no longer existed as a seperate body did it?
So when either Scotland or England decide to recind the act of union the entity calling itself the United Kingdoms of greater britain and NI recinds with it.
There is no UK without Scotland or England numbnuts that is the act of union and Irelands name isnt even on the document.
125

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:01:18
137

And Ireland didnt "leave" you f*ckwit it fought a war of independence and forced its way out of the UK and the UK still existed because Ireland wasnt part of the act of union.
Muppet!
126

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:03:02
138

The point wasnt cheap it cost us a financial institution.
127

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 10:04:23
Read all about it. Jenny Hjul, gloating over the fall of HBOS and disrespecting the shareholders, Alex Salmond and a large proportion of Scots.

An odious woman!

http://tinyurl.com/4m5cu8
128

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:04:38
137

The clue is in the United Kingdoms of greater Britain AND AND AND AND AND Ireland or NI.
129

Me, myself and I,

Livingston 21/09/2008 10:04:39
"Salmond: I'd have acted to save HBOS" ...

Then ...

I'd put a Scotsman on the moon, what the hell Mars.
Cure cancer.
End poverty.
Paint the Forth Road bridge at the weekend.
Make Dundee a desirable place to live.
Give you the numbers for Fridays Euromillions jackpot.
Clone Sir Sean for the nation.
Help Hearts to the Champions League title.
Make Edinburgh an easy place to drive.
A second home for all in Barbados.

Nurse. Bring my medication.
130

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:05:46
149 Heed:

Because that is what the Bank of England is there to do as stated in the article by the former Head of the Bank of England, resulting in NO job losses, simple.

Instead Scotland loses yet again and the dutiful unionists are more than willing to offer the keys to the city.

Despicable, detesable and servile!
131

morris,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:05:48
149
HBOS was declared financially sound less than one week ago by the FSA.You are an idiot.

The Bank of Englands former Chief Advisor has also confirmed unequivocally that it was so, and this did not need to happen.It was allowed to happen!

Are you suggesting he does not know about Banking but you do?
Government incompetence and delay/inaction (intentionally probably) caused this.
Salmond worked as a senior economist in The Royal Bank of Scotland.
If there is one area he knows about then THIS IS IT.
Brown had meetings with Lloyds TSB senior executives ,one only last week, and this take over would take months to organise.It cannot surface after 24 hours.

The POLICE may investigate this !

What part of its there in black and white do you not understand ?
132

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:06:39
158

I would settle for just getting us out of this so called union.
133

Calum10,

21/09/2008 10:07:57
The fact remains that the Bank of Scotland could have, and should have been saved. Instead, it was eaten up by Lloyds in a very dodgy deal which Gordon Brown helped put together.

Lets make no mistake Gordon Brown acted like an insider dealer in this takeover. He knew before-hand that the central banks were to pump money into the financial markets. Brown knew too that the US government was takeover the toxic mortgage debts.

So why did Gordon Brown force though a takeover when he must have known that given another 24 hours the Bank of Scotland would have been saved?

This takeover stinks.
134

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:10:03
138

Being a small country with massive resoures is a very very good thing though isnt it?
Its even better than being a large country with none.
135

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 10:12:16
#14 Highland Property Bubble:

Quote:

"HBOS was in effect facing bankruptcy due to its dire financial situation and was saved from going under by Lloyds."

And where did you get this specious nonsense from?
136

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:13:07
162 Calum#

The simpple fact is that the hammering Brown took over Northern Rock could not be seen to happen again (not that it would regarding HBOS).

Brown acted quickly, waived legislative procedure to avoid having another dithering situation on his hands especially before a Labour conference.

He has acted to quickly this time, possible illegally and not in the interests of not just Scots but anyone associated with HBOS.
137

Edwardg,

21/09/2008 10:13:26
Just to address Salmonds statements:

1. An Independent Scotland would have prevented such a situation occurring by making up to £100 billion of public money available to the stricken bank.

While such a move would be feasible, one has to take into account that the vast bulk of HBOS business is south of the border. Therefore what Salmond is proposing is essentially that billions of Scots tax payers money is put at risk in order to ensure the survival of a bank which maybe making the majority of its loses in London. Such a move would in effect be a subsidy for the banks English operations. This leaves Salmond with three options. He can either allow the business to go bust, which he has obviously ruled out. Secondly he could do as he stated above, thereby placing all the risk (including that from the banks English operations) on the Scottish tax payer. Thirdly he could seek co-operation from the government south of border with the hope of a joint initiative. In the event that the rump UK government (probably Tory) does not agree on such a course of action, Salmond could make the money available only to the banks Scottish Operations. Such a move would probably lead to the break up of HBOS, with the rump UK business sold to another bank such as Lloyds. The Bank of Scotland would be preserved. It would however be increasingly vulnerable to takeover by a foreign predator such as Banco Santander.

2.Were Scotland Independent it would have a lower rate of corporation tax than that south of the border. Lloyds would therefore move its HQ to Scotland.

This is a hypothetical situation based on the assumption that England would keep its corporation tax rate above that of Scotland. There is no reason to assume however that a Tory government would not move to slash CT to the EU lower limit of 12.5%. Such a move would of course lead to drastic spending cuts, but as we all know, the Tories are not adverse to this.

I invite debate.

138

Heed thi baw,

21/09/2008 10:13:58
#160

HBOS had £100 billion of debt that needed to be refinanced in the next 2 months, from a debt market that has evaporated. It's share was heading to £0 at an alarming rate - I believe it went dowm 40% in one day last week. There is a huge amount of other toxic debt and deals sitting in the bank. Look how quickly the other bank failures happened - within days.

Get real people - Salmond and the Scottish taxpayer couldn't have salvaged HBOS. At least Brown did something to stop the bank going under.
139

John S,

21/09/2008 10:16:04
#138 In economist Schumacher’s book, ’Small Is Beautiful’ he observes,“…if we make a list of all the most prosperous countries in the world, we find most of them are very small [UN figures substantiates this] whereas a list of all the biggest countries in the world show most to be very poor indeed”.
140

Media 1,

cape town 21/09/2008 10:18:08
When the Freedom fighting movement stands up and suggests it would have saved the day; you really need to shake your head in astonishment at the adolescence in their utterances.

Salmond like Mbeki is a freedom fighter, the only difference. Mbeki was fighting an undemocratic system within a society that was only free for some. Salmond is fighting a personal battle that consists of deep rooted anguish and ancient memories against a neighbour he believes to be the enemy.

THE SNP: It is like cowboys and indians adults who forgot to grow up.
141

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/09/2008 10:18:09
Where was Salmond during the XL Airways crisis?

All these thousands of people who were either stranded or lost their money.

How come Salmond could not help them out? After all he can do anything. Can't he?
142

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:19:58
168

Its shares were heading for 0 yes exactly one of the questions being asked is why?
Why was there suddenly a run on it?
and just before the US announced a package to save the market.
Again we are going over old ground repeatedly.
And all banks are in debt because of their boom and bust mortgage policies. HBOS was in no worse shape than most of them until the sudden run on their shares.

Do we really have to go through all of this again?
You were there yesterday why dont you just go look up yesterdays blogs for your answers
143

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:20:03
Seems like the unionists have some treasury economists on this morning. Experts in nothing apart from abuse as normal.

I think you really have to give Salmond a bit more credit, he is an economist so i presume he knows more of what he is talking about than the drivel on here this morning.

What is the Lib Dem, Conservative line on this? Where are they? Are they in hiding again?

144

morris,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:23:23
163

Salmond was an economist with what is as far as I am aware one of the worlds largest financial services groups.(Royal Bank of Scotland and part of RBS Group)

What expertise do you have in this field pray tell?
You claim a lot,so what do you have to back it up with?
145

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:25:19
170 Cape Town#

Don't know anyone who considers England or the English as an enemy, do you?

I know plenty who consider the political system as not working in Scotlands interests...like the Scottish electorate for example.

Predictions for Glenrothes anyone?
146

drew 33,

duddingston 21/09/2008 10:27:06
110 suchaparcelofrogues,
"When the UK Parliament disolves and reforms as 2 seperate parliaments the legislation over the UK assets will have to be thrashed out in an agreement between the two parties including the LSE."

Just for the sake of us lesser types unable to "play with the big boys" could you kindly explain what is meant by the above drivel.
147

John S,

21/09/2008 10:28:57
Goldman Sachs has pinpointed HBOS as the only UK bank share worthy of a buy recommendation in a major review of the European banking sector.
Of eight UK banks reviewed, only HBOS is rated a buy. HSBC, Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Chartered are labelled neutral while Alliance & Leicester, Barclays, Bradford & Bingley and Lloyds TSB are all sells.17 April 2008
148

Heed thi baw,

21/09/2008 10:29:41
#172, #173

HBOS was owned by an English bank before this. That bank obviously had an unsound business model that nearly resulted in HBOS going bust. HBOS is now still owned by an English bank.

As someone said earlier this week - 'it's business as usual'

#174

In Salmond's capacity as ex Chief Economist of RBS, why did he not use his financial contacts within the Scottish banking industry to save HBOS?

I don't see any of the SNP fundamentalist's with any answers here. Nothing new though. Is that why so many of them leave Scotland?
149

j fortitude ,

21/09/2008 10:30:06
Quick question - since when would the SNP set up a scottish central bank -i thouht they wanted to join the Eurozone
150

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 10:30:18
#95 Graham

Troll !
151

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 10:32:39
#149 & #150

You critise me my viewpoint because my wife is Australian and I reside in her country, you suggest that as I live oversea I should have no view on Scottish matters, the land of my birth and history until a few years ago.

Time and time again the unionists show for all to see their glorious insularity. If you don't live in Scotland your not a 'real scot'.

Unionists - insular, parochial and backward looking.

Nationalists - internationalist, free thinking and looking to the future.

Draco - your just too small minded and fearty to stop sucking that nipple aren't you?
152

Media 1,

cape town 21/09/2008 10:33:15
Nevsky

Are you attempting to suggest that the hoards of English hating scum that frequent many Scottish pubs when England are playing are merely venting some NORMAL frustrations?? hahahahahaha

Aye right! Dont talk to me about neighbourly rivalry - it doesnt exist between England and Scotland! Even the adopted anthem is a reminder of the hate - sent them home to thinnk again..hahahahah 700 year old wars as opposed to a song celebrating Scotland!!
The English reserve their rivalry for the French and the GERMANS, as well as the Argentinians! Not the Scots

Move aside SNP! We dont need your short sighted drivel and insular views.
153

Heed thi baw,

21/09/2008 10:34:17
#181

Better than being a racist and a bigot. Put another shrimp on the barbie...
154

morris,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:35:44

It might be of interest to some to read the current Wikipedia entry as regards Royal Bank of Scotland:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_(banks)


The Big Four commercial banks of the United Kingdom, HSBC Bank (formerly the Midland Bank), Royal Bank of Scotland (which also acquired Nat West), Barclays and Lloyds TSB. In 2001, they were joined by HBOS to make the Big Five. With the agreed 2008 acquisition of HBOS by Lloyds TSB, they will revert to the Big Four.

When was this included,does anybody know?
What has been agreed and by whom? I thought the shareholders have to vote on this before anything is agreed? Comments please.
I am obviously missing something here.

It begs a number of questions:
Is it always this "up to date"?
155

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:35:59
#169 John S

Yes, it does appear that small TENDS to be beautiful but I do worry about the tendency amongst the Nats to assume that, just because Scotland is a small country, it necessarily WILL be successful like their icon, Norway. It all depends on who is running the country. As I point out, Iceland is a small country, yet could be facing some hard times. Being small and successful isn't a given.
156

,

21/09/2008 10:36:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:41:03
182 Cape Town#

Clearly a long time since you have been in Scotland, long may that remain the case.

Personally i have been in pubs in both Scotland and England when the national teams are playing and i know where i would rather sit.

The only hate i can see is the type displayed by people like you...unionists who seem to despise their own country.
158

morris,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:41:14
182

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

What would you call that then?

A compliment?

159

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:41:39
#181 Dougie

You never answer the question though, do you? What's your plans for coming back to contribute to the country you purport to love so much? Any vague timescale yet? Or just content to live over there on the visa given you courtesy of wifey? It seems I'm not the one with the dependency.
160

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/09/2008 10:43:10
Salmond is a disgrace. Again, he puts self before Scotland - and, for once, the Scottish people see him for what he is - a chancer.
161

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:43:26
176

Well in a nut shell all UK assets and institutions dont belong to England and will not automatically belong to England when the UK disolves into its constituent parts.

Is that plain enough?
162

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 10:45:20
186

Is being an ignorant troll any way to go through life?
Being small with large resourses as stated above when you first brought this little gem up is a very very healthy state of affairs to be in though.
163

brownlie,

21/09/2008 10:46:16
127 Nikos

Quite right, Nikos, if it's in the paper it must be true. I remember once a paper reporting that a comedian ate a hamster and it was proven to be true. The same paper, you are quoting from, said Labour would win the election in Glasgow East - and it turned out to be true again.

I think it's time your dog took you for a walk!
164

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:46:43
182 cape Town#

I would not mind if unionists were to discuss what it was they were reticent about regarding independence. Everyone, inclusing Nationalists, have the same fears about the economy, running of the country, wealth creation etc

But look at these boards today, pure hatred and abuse and ridicule at even the mention that Scotland could do something in an independent country..from people with absolutely NO economic background.



165

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 10:47:01
#178

Heed thi baw ( yeah, nice touch trying to give your postings some Scottish authenticity by Scottishising up your posting name - dosen't fool anyone ya numptie)

1/ Would you suggest the an RBS senior economist's views are not valid in this circumstance? I would, to suggest not smacks of ignorance and political mischief-making.

2/ Have you ever considered that post that have a wider view of Scottish affairs than your pathetic ramblings may come from Scots who work overseas on a career path. I.e succesful people who's skills and talents are valued, people who have an international perspective, people who may return enriching Scotland with their experience, naw?, thought not , were all traitors aren't we (and which side of politics is inward looking?)

Not to worry I'm sure your a 'Real Scot' and you have a Daily Record sticker on the back of your 1982 Escort 'I'm a REAL SCOT from Lanark' to prove it.

Pathetic navel gazing inward looking banana
166

worried in Scotland,

Dunkeld 21/09/2008 10:47:58
"Downing Street insiders who accused Salmond of "economic illiteracy".

Was Alex Salmond not an economist, Gordon Brown a historian and Alastair Darling a lawyer?

My main worry in all this is moving money out of B. of Scotland to make sure I am covered.

How was Gordon Brown able to "tip the wink" to Lloyds TSB at a function about this takeover, why did they not stop the short trading before that happened. We wouldn't be in this situation if he had.

Did the cabinet have anything to do with this decision?

I thought Tony Blair was the one who made decisions and told people about it afterwards.

I hope Bank of Scotland can be saved anyway possible.
167

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 10:48:26
#108 Richard.

Quote:

"i have a question,how big would RBS,HBOS be if Scotland had never been in the Union,and therefore it only had to survive almost totally of it's own 5m population."

Richard, Switzerland has a population of 7.5 million.

"The World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report currently ranks Switzerland's economy as the second most competitive in the world."

Norway has a population of 4.7 million.

"Norwegians enjoy the second highest GDP per-capita and third highest GDP (PPP) per-capita in the world"

Lesson number one, Richard, there is no correlation between population size and economic prosperity.

Lesson number two, engage your brain before posting to avoid looking like a complete eejit.

168

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 10:48:26
So who will emerge as the Ernest Saunders of Lloyds TSB?
Remember the promises made by the Guiness bosses in 1986 when they 'saved' Distillers(remember them?) by injecting £2.7bn into that company?

And how is Bells' HQ in Perth getting on these days?
169

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 10:49:00
LOL Head the ball

I bow to your the weight of your arguments @183.

Perhaps you could humilate me a little more by giving some examples of my racism? or indeen wider SNP racism?

Hmmmm - I thought not
170

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 10:49:32
If Salmond really wants to underwrite bank's morgage liabilities with my taxes, I will eat my shorts. I believe he is a bit wiser than that. Even trams are a better use of my money.

New schools? Hospitals? Nah.... I think I'll underwrite a bank's morgage liabilities... Honestly, get real.
171

brownlie,

21/09/2008 10:51:11
147 Madame Ecosse

The UK Government could not find money to give the firemen the rise they were promised but shortly after found money to fund an illegal invasion.

As for the Conservatives are you trying to claim that they paid public servants in line with inflation?
172

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 10:52:07
Geez Draco, game set and match to you sir.

I have no plans to seperate from my wife and leave my three children to come to Scotland and fight the good fight.

What a disengenious, treacherious piece I must be.

Not a REAL SCOT like youself eh?

Are you and Head the ball Labours new weapon???

LOL
173

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:52:21
202 Tin Man#

Forgetting that Brown NATIONALISED Northern Rock are we?

Enjoy your breakfast.
174

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 10:54:06
#125 Niko

Just one question for you.

Who went bust?
175

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 10:54:11
Draco:

I think you will find that Scots working abroad are generally higher earners (also some of the brightest i have found) and also consquently pay higher taxes and contribute MORE to the country than you..so give it a break.
176

brownlie,

21/09/2008 10:55:35
158 me myself

All these would appear to be possible - apart from Hearts winning the Champions League - that is stretching creduility a bit far.
177

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 10:56:18
#205 Nevsky

Do you think that Salmond would have done the same? If so, he would drop like a lead balloon in my estimation.
178

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 10:56:51
Nevsky - it's like banging your head against a wall talking to Media one and he's not a REAL SCOT.

Media One - you are banned from comment - your not a REAL SCOT
179

morris,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 10:59:01
186

Being small does not guarantee wealth or success but being large does not guarantee anything either.
Just as being a virgin does not guarantee that you wont ever be pregnant,there are no guarantees for any nations!

Of course there are wealthy small nations and much less wealthy small nations in exactly the same way as this is true of any size of nation.What is different however is a small economy is much more manageable,since anything injected amplifies in effect as a component part of that economy.

The estimate is that Oil Revenues multiply by around 12 times in their effectiveness simply by the fact that they represent a significantly larger slice of that smaller independent economy.
Surely that must be obvious No? If its not so I would like to know why!

Small can be beautiful.
It is unlikely that a country with Scotland's resources would fail,and significantly less so than the UK, but its possible.
We may be guilty of presuming success but you are presuming failure when the facts suggest otherwise.
There is a place for caution certainly but staying living in caves is what your version of ca canny would have achieved!
180

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:00:10
#197 Dougie

And your timescale for returning with all those much needed skills is.......? How's the application for permanent residency going? Or got to the citizenship stage yet? Away down the Brisbane Caledonian Club and join all the other Plastic Jocks lamenting about how great Scotland could be if it wasn't for the dastardly Union holding her back.
181

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:01:06
#210 Dougie

Out of interest, let's hear your definition of a 'REAL SCOT'.
182

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 11:01:18
209 Tin Man#

I don't know as i am not an economist (plenty onhere who think they are though).

Certainly plauible that an independent government could offer surety for any bank, why not? If the Bank of England can offer it for ALL banks as has been promised they i see no reason why the Scottish state bank could not do the same.

The Irish have done it.
183

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:03:28
213

My definition would be anybody who qualifies for a Scottish passport within an Independent Scotland
what would yours be?
184

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:03:40
#207 Nevsky

You're in Moscow to make money for YOU, not to benefit Scotland in any way. There's nothing wrong with that but don't give me your p*sh.
185

,

21/09/2008 11:04:05
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186

brownlie,

21/09/2008 11:04:35
179 j fortitude

Quite right, too, there are no central banks in the EU.
187

brownlie,

21/09/2008 11:06:32
192 Media

Do you realise that more Scots, and others, sing Auld Lang Syne - with all its ramifications - than sing Flower of Scotland?
188

morris,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:08:38
194

I have no quibble with the Germans or with any nationality for that matter.

I was replying to a remark made by a Unionist attacking the adopted anthem FLOWER of SCOTLAND and its content and pointing out that the UK anthem is just as guilty .
Maybe you should read before you speak!
Better still think!
189

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:09:18
#215 Nevsky

If you want to underwrite banks with my taxes, then i have a big problem with that.
190

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 11:10:16
#182 Medical 1

In the interests of balance, you should point out the hatred in the verses of the national anthem. Shouldn't you?
191

,

21/09/2008 11:11:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
192

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:12:00
#215 Nevsky

But then again... maybe you are not liable for UK taxes if you are out of the country for 181 days a year...?
193

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 21/09/2008 11:12:16
AS "I'd have acted..." Aye, right.
194

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 11:12:21
#187 Spectator

And what have you contributed to this debate. I think your name sums you up.
195

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 11:13:34
Draco - you are a complete and utter fandan, you just can't help yourself can you?

In almost every town and city in Australia you will find an Italian Club, Greek Club, Irish Club, Serbian Club,'British' Club etc etc.

I know of no Scottish or Caledonian club anywhere in Australia. The bare facts are that wherever Scots emigrate to they assimilate with the local population whilst retaining a fondness for Scotland that does not have to be bolstered by creating such clubs or engaging in hollow shows of Scottishness given their circumstances.

Let me just repeat this - my wife is Australian and so are my young family. What sort of complete ar$e would push away those ties? I love Scotland and view her in a broad international perspective , I see that she is getting a poor deal. I have no dislike for others in the UK but feel strongly that Scotland is ill-served by being tied to a neighbour 10 times her size and with her own goals that do match Scotlands.

Your dribblings are inward looking nonsense, I have no idea why I feel the need to explain myself to you as you are obviously a complate and utter tool.

Begone ar$e
196

brownlie,

21/09/2008 11:13:49
186 Draco

I rather think that Nats think Scotland would be MORE successful as an independent country rather than being a small and impotent part of a union which drags it into illegal invasions of countries that pose no threat to Scotland and spends billions on weapons that will never be used.
197

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 11:15:34
#210 Tin Man

There is no such thing as a 'REAL SCOT' I am parodying your fellow unionists and the Daily Record.

DUH
198

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:16:00
#215 Nevsky

Let me rephrase that: If you want to underwrite increased government borrowing with my taxes, in order to underwrite a bank's borrowing, then i have a big problem with that.
199

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 11:16:21
#213 Easy. The exact opposite of Media 1 !
200

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:16:36
#224 The Spectator

Be fair to Eck. That's his JOB as head of the SNP and his raison d'etre as a believer in Independence. He wouldn't be doing it right if he didn't use every opportunity to try and de-stabilise the Union. I would doubt he believes his own hyperbole. He's a brilliant politician and, compared to the previous numpties who held his post, pretty competent.
201

whomthegodswishtodestroytheyfirstmakemad,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 11:16:41
"New World, New Solutions"

Gordon Brown on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. Well folks there you have it in a nutshell the core idea of his speech on Tuesday. This snazy little soundbite is simply a rehash of "Time to draw a line under this and move on" as used by politicians who have been caught out and find themselves in a bit of a pickle. This will be a blatant attempt to pretend that the last ten years didn't happen, that Labour were not in power during this time, that Brown had no influence on decision making. Its time to start again, begin afresh blah blah blah. Remember folks repeat after me

"New World ,New Solutions.....New World, New Solutions....New World, New Solutions.....assimilate...resistance is futile !

ps

I see Harriet Harman has taken to wearing a jacket that has the appearance of being made from some sort of reptilian skin
202

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:17:23
#230 Dougie

My apologies - thanks for that.

DUH!
203

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 11:17:56
186 Draco Was a Wimp
Countries being small and successful is not a given, but it is the norm.

Here are some examples:

Denmark 5,489,022
Slovakia 5,402,273
Finland 5,320,291
Norway 4,783,250
Singapore 4,588,600
Croatia 4,435,400
Costa Rica 4,468,000
Ireland 4,422,100
United Arab Emirates 4,380,000
Central African Republic 4,343,000
New Zealand 4,278,650
Kuwait 2,851,000
Jamaica 2,714,000
Luxembourg 483,800
Malta 410,600
Iceland 319,355
Barbados 294,000
Bahamas 331,000
Jersey 89,300
Isle of Man 80,058
Guernsey 65,726
Bermuda 65,000
Monaco 33,000
Falkland Islands 3,000
Vatican City 800

Of the over 200 countries listed by the UN, GBR is the 22nd largest, with 3/4 having less than 10million inhabitants, and with half about the same size population as Scotland, or smaller.
204

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:18:56
234

Ah she went topless then?
205

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 11:20:13
225 Tin Man#

I pay tax in BOTH countries and it's not quite as simple as you make out, i wish it was!
206

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/09/2008 11:20:36
#224 Spectator

I think Glenrothes will demonstrate exactly how popular the SNP are within Scotland.

And you will be as sick as a parrot judging by your anti-SNP hatred.

Scotland has moved on and you are being left behind.
207

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:23:32
#236 livilion

Nationalist movements have very little to do with whether a country is viable, or not. It is a patriotic movement.

Lists of countries are meaningless, but i hope you are not going to use Vatican City as a role model :-)
208

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:24:02
#236 Livi

I agree with you. It's just that the usual SNP suspects on here ASSUME we're going to be successful BECAUSE we're small. Given Scotland's obsession with State socialism as an economic model, I suspect we're more likely to end up like Cuba for a while before coming to our senses. It's that wee period between leaving the Union and, hopefully, that change of political mindset that I'm not looking forward to.
209

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:24:49
230

I am a Scot and I am real.
210

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:25:01
#238 Nevsky

My commiserations.
211

,

21/09/2008 11:26:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
212

Anne, Glasgow,

21/09/2008 11:26:21
What tosh and nonsense from Downing Street that Alex Salmond was not an economist with the Royal Bank of Scotland. If he was not we would have heard a long long time ago. Downing Street haven't a bloody clue what they are talking about. Or is the person who put this on the blog being mischievous. We will see.
213

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:27:01
241

Being small and rich in resourses makes assuming we will be well off a lot more believable than assuming we wont be doesnt stop you dishonest trolls from telling us we would be a basket case though eh?
214

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:29:25
#228 Dougie

I'll take that as an admission that you have no plans to return here; obviously, you will want what's best for your family and fair play to you as I believe they say in your new country. It's time you realised you're not in a position to criticise those Scots who hold differing views on what's best for the future of the country. By leaving, you've abdicated the right to do that, not the right to hold an opinion.
215

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 11:29:29
243 Tin Man#

Spaseebo bolshoi!
216

subrosa,

21/09/2008 11:29:32
# 81

'is it not about time you took that chip off your shoulder and realised your place within the UK.'

How's Manchester looking today? Got your grovelling to Gordon organised?



217

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 11:29:41
Ignore the trolls!!!!
218

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/09/2008 11:31:01
#247 - ignored
219

JG,

Fife 21/09/2008 11:31:01
It's all just sentiment and manipulative patriotism. It would be nice to think that HBOS could have been saved but this was the result of the sharp players in the global market. What could Salmond realistically have done about that?

#223 connaughtboy
I take it you're harping back to the "rebellious Scots to crush" thing? A verse that was inserted when General Wade was sent to Scotland to sort things out but dropped (I think around 1750) when he was sacked. Nice to see you're keeping up to date with things!
220

,

21/09/2008 11:31:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
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221

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:34:18
#247 Draco

.... Criticism is an expression of an opinion.
222

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:34:40
# 246 Rogues

I've never said we would be a basker case. I just suspect that, for a while, we won't live up to our potential. I certainly don't believe that we could have been run successfully whilst any party in the mould of Labour held political sway. My fear is that the SNP is too much like Labour Lite to run a successful economy. My faith in the Scottish people is never in doubt for one second, just their political judgement.
223

Rob,

21/09/2008 11:35:01
Even for Alex, this is a stellar performance. Never has he uttered more rubbish per sentence.
224

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:36:03
250

There would be nobody left to argue with theyre all pretending to be unionists or vice versa its hard to tell sometimes.
225

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 11:37:35
241 Draco Was a Wimp

Kuwait for example produces less oil than Scotland and has less resources, human or natural, to call upon than we do, but does just fine for all that.

Which of those countries I listed @ #236 are naturally gifted with a more intellegent population than Scotland that they can run their own affairs where we couldn't?

How many of those countries actually had to shed their blood to become or retain independent, and how many do you imagine would now willingly vote to cede independence to a larger neighbour?
226

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:38:26
256

Which is fair enough but the point of having independence is we get to choose our governments we dont have them forced upon us. If the country doesnt want an SNP government then the country can vote them out at the next election at least we will get another Scottish government in its place with a very minisule chance of it being conservative.
227

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:40:30
# 255 Tin Man

I can hold opinions about American politics and be critical of Bush. It most certainly isn't my place to be critical of those Americans who agree with Bush. It's their country. In my OPINION, by leaving Scotland and, it would appear having no plans to return, Dougie and his ilk have given up their right to criticise those who have elected to stay.
228

vimto,

21/09/2008 11:43:51
Here we go again,salmond stirring up the locals again,causing the anti-English racism Salmond could of done f==k all to save HBOS,he hasn't got the finances.
229

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 11:45:14
264# Spook:

The country would always have a balance of power and at least in Scotland there would be no huge majority ever as far as i can see; therefore no-one riding roughshod over the country aka Westminster.
230

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:46:02
264

We wont gain independence by voting for anybody else so the SNP will form the first Scottish independent government after that its down to the Scottish electorate and not thankfully the S E of Englands electorate.
231

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:46:41
#263 Draco

So you may think, but I would disagree. Personally, I believe that anyone is perfectly entitled to express their opinions.
232

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:47:33
266

We could even have proportional representation or even our own constitution or both or a peoples charter anything is possible its a new start.
233

bluehead,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:48:31
I am glad to read that Alex Salmond would have intervened to save the Scottish bank,although I wish even more so that he would have intervened to save the
the people from the maniacal tram system that nobody wants, bar for a few people,then all that millions could have been used in a sensible way,and not wasted as it is, at this moment,
234

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:49:05
#259 Livilion

Thankfully, we aren't, as a nation, in a position where we'll have to shed blood in an effort to be a seperate country again. The only risky guerilla tactics we Scots have had, and will continue to have, to deploy is toddling down to the polling place and picking up a wee blunt pencil. I agree with you wholeheartedly, the Scots are perfectly able to run a seperate country of their own. Just accept that the majority of your countrymen have used their just-as good-as-any-other-country brains and chosen not to.

235

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 21/09/2008 11:50:01
A short selling spiv and proud of it. Salmond and the SNP just lost my vote this week. Good luck Scotland in your socialist republic.
236

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:50:52
271

If Scotland had been independent we wouldnt have the trams that was a unionist policy pushed through by the other major parties against the governments will.
237

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 11:51:48
#269 Tin Man

There, then, we will have to agree to disagree.
238

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 11:54:02
240 The Tin Man
>>Nationalist movements have very little to do with whether a country is viable, or not. It is a patriotic movement.<<


Scotland has always been viable, inspite of Anglocentic propaganda to the contrary.( Too wee, too poor, too stupid to look after yourselves)

Scotland's nationalist movement is quite different in character from most nationalist movements in that in other places the nationalist tendency has been to be right-wing and ethnic, but here in Scotland mainstream nationalism is centre-left and favours the civic natioalist models of France and the USA.

Show me a nation on earth that is not patriotic.
239

John S,

21/09/2008 11:54:47
#186:If you wish I can quote GDP per capita for each country and if this is a measure on how prosperous a country is then you will find in the top 20 all are smaller countries except for the USA who is 9 with Iceland 16 and the UK at 28 with smaller countries at the top and bottom and a mixture in between.
I feel that in a smaller country the Government is held more directly accountable by its citizens for that Governments actions and a smaller country can react more quickly to the needs of its citizens, they have the finger of the pulse so to speak.
If we take devoution as an example the people can related directly to their local MSP and to the Scottish Government rather than to their MP and the Westmister Government who seem distant.

240

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 21/09/2008 11:55:02
That confirms my suspicions, the Scottish are no longer any use with other people's finances, if they ever were!
241

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:56:02
#271 bluehhead

I believe Salmond is making it up.

I very much doubt really he thinks that by using our taxes to underwrite the increasing of a State's debt in order to underwrite a bank's borrowing is a sensible course of action - that would make trams look like an infinitely better decision.
242

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 11:57:35
272 Draco#

So far. Amazing that you admit that we could run the country but yet that we are better not doing that, unlike every other country.

Don't be under any illusion that Scotland IS heading towards independence though.

It amazes me that even a glance at what has happened and what is predicted to happen has not sunk in yet.

A Scottish parliament, with the SNP in power was not credible 10 years ago.
The SNP taking seats in Labours heartlands and keeping the was not credible.
The SNP with a huge electoral (current polls) majority over Labour was not credible.
The conservatives supporting devolution (and done so very well) was not credible.
All parties agreeing that the Parliament should take nearly full fiscal control was not credible.
Alex Salmond being the highest rated political leader ever in Scotland was not credible.
The Scottish electorate prepared to consider independence as a real alternative was not credible.
Intention for Scots to vote YES in a referendum if the conservatives come to power??

ALL these things have happened an what will happen is inevitable!
243

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 11:59:23
280

Aye right enough we should just auction off all of our resourses and financial institutions to the highest bidders. I mean it really worked for our utility companies eh?
244

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 11:59:46
#270 livilion

I never said that Scotland was unviable, mere said that whether or not it is seen as economically advantageous is rather irrelevant. It is a matter for the heart, not the wallet.
245

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:00:25
Let me get this right. UK has a population of 60 million and many people (including many posters on Scotsman threads) have complained about the UK taking over Northern Rock for £50bn (less than 5% of GDP) saying that this leaves the govt with a dodgy £50bn investment in a financial company.

According to this article Alex salmond is claiming that Scotland, with a population of 5 million could have put as much as £100bn (roughly equivalent to a 100% of GDP) into a dodgy financial investment.

Is this a credible scenario?

The US bailout also amounts to approx. 5% of GDP
246

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:02:40
#278 John S

In theory, you're totally correct of course. I'm just basing my projections into the future on the voting habits of Scots in the past. A very unhealthy attachment to Labour and its nanny-state, big government, dependency culture which has held Scotland back. And the alternative, the SNP, Labour-Lite with worrying tendencies towards the same. Mind you, hopefully the undoubted period of harsh economic and political reality will pass quite quickly....
247

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 12:03:05
#284 superparcel

????

Scotland's, and the UK's, financial institutions, and natural resources are already in private hands.

I take it you are a re-distributive socialist who favours wide-spread nationalisation?
248

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:04:11
286

Your using GDP figures of Scotland within the union to compare what Scotland can do under Independence and I bet you thought nobody would notice.
249

Ewan M,

21/09/2008 12:05:14
#191 i couldn't agree more. Salmond puts his interest before Scotland every time. I sick of his tiring us versus the rest of the UK rants in everything he does.
250

brownlie,

21/09/2008 12:05:49
276 Spook

What ho, Spooky,

I thought you'd disappeared - one of your team-mates was saying you do that every Saturday round about 3pm. Hope you're OK!

Sadly, us unionists are depressed this morning. The only one who could save us, my darling Cathy, has been side-lined. The other part of my ideal threesome -Jackie - has also been side-lined.

We are getting slaughtered in the polls - and on this site. AM2 and HM have taken up director-ships with Lloyds and Paisley pete has now got a new disguise - he's pretending, or confessing, that he's English.

Is there no-one out there who can save us???
251

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:07:49
292 Ewan#

So presumably you are not in favour of his giving up his wee trip to the Ryder Cup to meet instead with bank bosses to try and do what he can to secure jobs...is that putting his interest first.

Incidentally Brown will be at the conference pleading for his neck while the other Labour MPs are scrabbling for shadow cabinet posts. No meeting with Brown or Darling on the cards.

Who is putting who first again?
252

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:08:12
290

Well yes actually I do as a consumer I have not experianced any benefit from privatisation in any sector and neither have you.
All of that bullsh*t about competition keeping prices down has really proven itself hasnt it?
BT, British rail, Electricity, gas, banking, insurance, dental treatment and a 2 tier health service.
Privatisation is nothing more than a public rip off.
253

Braes of Glenmiller,

21/09/2008 12:08:12
One bright light amidst the gloom.

We won't be seeing annoying Howard, the fat singing girl, and the thousands of Halifax employees doing Busby Berkeley numbers on the telly again. Perhaps we'll see a "Full Monty" group forming in the dole queues in Yorkshire as they reassess their "job options".

Maybe if they'd stayed in their branches and properly assessed mortgage applications they might still be dancing.

BOS will probably continue as a brand North of the border.

That lovely big building at the top of the Mound will make the world's biggest Weatherspoons.

BOS was solvent because it concentrated on retail banking which it was rather good at. Halifax went b**lls out to get market share in the mortgage arena and both paid the price.

Much as I admire what Eck has done for Scotland in his short tenure I feel that this is his first shot in the Glenrothes campaign. Good to see him rile up the English/British establishment yet again with a few choice comments.
254

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 12:10:18
#294 Nevsky

Nothing wrong with that - but it is a bit like Brown asking OPEC to reduce the price of oil.
255

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:11:15
#282 Nevsky

If we're in the forecasting game, here's my prediction. I suspect you're right, Scotland will leave the UK, probably sooner than many hope or suspect. But when she does, she will adhere to the same State-knows-best mindset that the majority of the population have voted for since the 1950s. We will stagnate and fail to reach our full potential. Just like the much-vaunted Irish Republic did until it gave up its love-affair with big-governent Socialism in the late '80s.
256

roughrider,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 12:13:02
A new poll by you gov has revealed that the SNP has double the support of the liebour scum party in Glenrothes.
Broon is crapping himself.
Bwing it on.
257

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 12:13:48
272 Draco Was a Wimp

If the rest of our countrymen had just accepted their lot you would not have a colour telly and the right to lock your front door, or exercise your democratic mandate.

I have watched the development of the SNP since the early 70's when we were told in reponse to the SNP claim that: it was Scotland's oil, that an independent Scotland would be an economic basket case, when goverment officials were contemplating sending in the army if we found out the truth and voted to go our own way.

Every generation since between the two world wars when the general population was given the vote has seen support for Scottish independence grow, until today where it would appear that the unionist position is looking more and more vulnerable.

I'd even go as far as to suggest that the next UK general election could well be the last, given the likelyhood of a Tory landslide in England, an anathema in Scotland, and the busted flush that is the Labour party's 'New Labour' Thatcherite agenda.

But cheer up, in an independent Scotland all bets are off and you can form any new political party to suit the mood of the restored nation and yourself.
258

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:14:09
291 suchaparcelofrogues
OK then. To make the figures comparable to the UK and US bailouts the Scottish GDP would have to be 2000bn - or £400,000 ($720,000) per capita - approx 10 times as much as any other country in the world.

Is that a credible scenario?
259

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 12:14:13
#295 superparcel

Brotherly salutations, tavoreesh!
260

Publius,

London 21/09/2008 12:15:06
'I would have' says Alex. 'A Scottish central bank would have lent the cash...'

How? The SNP does not envisage a Scottish central bank. The party says it will stay with the pound sterling (central bank - the Bank of England) until Scotland joins the Euro (central bank - European Central Bank).
261

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 12:17:48
#295 superparcel

I take it you don't remember the 1970's?
262

Publius,

21/09/2008 12:18:25
#296 Braes of Glenmiller

It's sad you have no sympathy for the people of Halifax, a town totally dependent on Halifax. Even its Labour MP feels betrayed by Brown, Darling and test rest who have contrived a deal which apparently saves jobs in Scotland at their expense.
263

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:18:45
#300 Livilion

It's not easy being completely out of step with the political thinking of your countrymen you know. An in some ways liberal Conservative, not necessarily Unionist. We're few and far between....
264

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:20:55
303 Publius
You are correct. There is therefore a contradiction between Alex Salmond's rhetoric and his policies.

Also HBOS does approx 80-90% of its business in the rest of the UK. Is Alex Salmond saying that Scotland would lend up to £100bn to operations which are mainly carried out in what would be foreign countries.
265

brownlie,

21/09/2008 12:22:03
294 Nevsky

Salmond still has not cottoned on has he? He should take a lesson from us unionists and take advantage of all the perks that go with the job.

Much better to be in Kentucky sipping a mint julep that drinking tepid tea with a load of bankers. Who cares about a load of wingeing constituents losing their jobs.
266

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:23:59
301#

Not so simple and well you know it. Can you name me ANY country that has been bankrupted in bailing out a bank? NO you can't.

Even the Swedes when their ENTIRE banking sector collapsed recovered through the careful management and government securities.
267

The Tin Man,

21/09/2008 12:25:45
#311 Nevsky

Russia?

Argentina?
268

,

21/09/2008 12:25:54
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269

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:26:21
311 Nevsky
It is not a question of the nation becoming bankrupted and I never said that it was. It is a question of how much the country loses if the investment does not perform well.
270

,

21/09/2008 12:27:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
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271

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:28:37
Tin Man#

Argentina no. The economy collapsed as it was vervalued for decades and tied to the dollar. Nothing to do with this situation.
272

Braes of Glenmiller,

21/09/2008 12:29:20
#307

I've been to Halifax and the science museum there. It's really good.

I feel for anyone, anywhere who loses their job. I worked in the City of London for 20 years and met many good people who worked very hard for their bonuses and didn't drive Ferraris or Bentleys. They were the huge majority. Only a few folk had the status symbols, the enormous houses, and a truly loathsome attitude to blowing peoples savings on reckless gambles in the market. They will still have millions ofshore, but the IT and support people I worked with will be out on their ears looking for work.

Unfortunatley they were in the top jobs.

Luckily I got out and live in the real world once more.

I have no sympathy for an organisation blowing millions on advertising super high savings rates whilst at the same time blowing the capital accrued on reckless mortgage gambles.

I'm sure Howard and the singing girl are very nice people in ordinary life but they annoyed the h*ll out of me on the slick, tropical yacht themed ads.

273

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:31:05
301

Ugly and stupid is no way to go through life George.
AS wasnt proposing to bail out the NYSE or even the LSE just HBOS.
274

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:32:42
315 George#

Don't have an answer to that but it seems that even the ex-chief of the Bank of England was advocating supporting HBOS through the central bank.
275

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:34:04
298

Even with that gloomy doom ridden prophesy is true we would still be infinitely better off than we are stagnating as a region of the UK.
276

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:35:31
303

Well obviously he does.
277

John S,

21/09/2008 12:35:51
#288 Draco Was a Wimp:Scotland has always been a socialist leaning country but so is Sweden and there will be a middle ground somewhere.
Devolution has brought the Scottish Government closer and accountable to the people in away that Westminster cannot achieve,wether we go further down the road depends on the Scottish people and how much they can be convinced that independence is the way to go.
Let the political parties within Scotland take sides and present the arguments without interference from Westminster this would be the mature thing to do.
Should the UK have adopted a Federal system of Government before devolution is another matter it would have been an alternative.Have a nice day.
278

noswod,

Honestus 21/09/2008 12:36:02
Aye twa Labour Edinburgh men, Broon (Univ of Edin) and Darling (EDin Sooth) lose bank to the London Britions and in the process stuff the Darien Banks ex economist ideas of going independant. Just like 1707 when Edinburgh economic wipe oot caused the Union thing tae start. At the heart of this is the fact that HBOS has a funding gap of £128bn, yes £128bn to fill over the next 5 years, who is going to fund this, you and me with higher taxes. The management of HBOS should be sacked, including its head grocer, it is financial ineptitude worthly of a Banana republic. The dream of independence has gone doon the pan with ta share price of HBOS.
279

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:36:53
303

And the UK is in Europe and still retains the Bank of England so what difference would it make to Scotland within Europe to retaining a national bank?
Making it up again as you go along?
280

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:39:58
319 suchaparcelofrogues
If you understood the points you would realise that I was not suggesting thet Alex Salmond was proposing to bail out NYSE and LSE. I was illustaring comparisons as is obvious.

Once again you demonstrate your lack of understanding of these issues and you merely resort to abuse and insults.
281

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:40:23
302

As opposed to sieg heil you mean?
282

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:42:18
326

No you werent you were being a tool as usual.
A GDP of 2000bn required to bail out HBOS?
Where is the comparrison?
283

Publius,

London 21/09/2008 12:43:11
#318 Braes of Glenmiller

Thank you for your sympathetic post. We are agreed about one thing: HBOS was wrecked by its own senior management, but the people at the bottom will pay the price in lost jobs.
284

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:43:40
Having looked through the board i have yet to find one comment directed at the former head of the Bank of England who is advocating EXACTLY what Salmond has said.

Sums up the unionist frenzy, attack anyhting the SNP says while forgetting about any of the facts even when leaders in the industry agree...
285

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:44:01
309

Also HBOS does approx 80-90% of its business in the rest of the UK.

Really? show us the proof.
286

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:44:32
320 Nevsky
We have to look at the details of the present situation. HBOS does the majority of its business in mortgage lending in the UK - mostly in England. Alex Salmond is saying that, in effect, he would the lend the majority of up to £100bn to the English property market. Would that be a sensible thing to do - lending such huge amounts to what would be a foreign property market.
287

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:44:58
329

Amongst others hence the clamour for answers and enquiries.
288

Ugly George,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:45:51
331 suchaparcelofrogues
Look up HBOS annual accounts and reports.
289

Exasperated,

Guildford 21/09/2008 12:47:27
Sad to see so many lily-livered unionists cowering under the might of the London barrow boys, what a bunch of wimps! No wonder they're ashamed of being Scottish. Go on Alex, stand up for Scotland, too many Scots won't, they're too scared. I wonder if our American friends who post on here would feel if Canadian wide boys short sold their major US bank down the river and used it as an argument that the USA should be governed by Canada? Likely to happen, huh dudes?? Yeah right dudes.....
290

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:47:45
305

What was wrong with the 70s?
291

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:48:20
332 George#

Property always goes up doesn't it, eventually? You suggesting that no government or companies make any foreign investments?
292

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:48:25
334

Ok can you email me a copy?
293

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:48:42
328 Suchaparcelofrogues
Get somebody to explain the posts to you if you do not undersatnd them.
294

Publius,

London 21/09/2008 12:49:20
#325 suchaparcelofrogues

The point is that the SNP does not envisage a Scottish Central Bank with its own currency and reserves.
The UK (rightly or wrongly) is not in the Eurozone and the Bank of England can bail out banks if it has the reserves and chooses to do so.
States in the Eurozone still have central banks in name - Bank of France, Bundesbank etc - but these banks cannot bail out ccommercial banks. This power now belongs to the European Central Bank. Non-one can say what the ECB would have done.
295

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:50:50
338
When I asked you for information the other day you asked if I was too lazy to look it up myself with no indication of which countries I should look up. I have at least done you the courtesy of informing you of what you should look up.
296

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:50:52
332

the Halifax side of the business does most of its mortgage business in England but the BOS side of the business concentrates on the business banking mostly in Scotland. Twisting the facts again to fit in with yer bile.
297

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 12:52:20
341

Well I am trying to look it up from your sourse where is it?
298

Publius,

London 21/09/2008 12:53:13
#335 Exasperated

HBOS wasn't slain by barrowboys (or spivs and speculators). It died at its own hand. The barrowboys and other vultures gathered round as HBOS died to see what they could peck from the carcase.
299

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 12:55:16
334 Publius:

Not according to the ex chief of the bank of England and the FSA but you obviousle know better.
300

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 12:55:21
342
You have illustrated the point yourself. what is the population of Scotland relative to England? That is why Halifax is the much bigger part of the business.
QED
No twisting of facts on no bile just more inaccurate insults from yourself. As I told you the other day your attempts to wind me up into using insults and abuse as you do are not going to work.
301

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 21/09/2008 13:01:52
This article is the biggest load of tosh this young woman has had printed yet.
The fact that the FSA did not do its job requires an enquiry; the fact that Brown and his cohorts were already speaking to the bunch of spivs in Lloyds for two weeks beforehand and whose track record goes back some 30 years to my knowledge (GEC) really says it all.
The fact that Brown has stood on the Monopolies’ Commission, to say that they will turn a blind eye to this merger also requires a full enquiry.
As for the crisis I ask what crisis? The fact that all UK banks were under pressure was not a reason for the massive run on HBOS no that was contrived and the spivs are about to be found out, as it will appear on their balance sheets as well as their salaries.


302

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 21/09/2008 13:02:37
oops!!
The fact that the FSA did not do its job requires an enquiry; the fact that Brown and his cohorts were already speaking to the bunch of spivs in Lloyds for two weeks beforehand and whose track record goes back some 30 years to my knowledge (GEC) really says it all.
The fact that Brown has stood on the Monopolies’ Commission, to say that they will turn a blind eye to this merger also requires a full enquiry.
As for the crisis I ask what crisis? The fact that all UK banks were under pressure was not a reason for the massive run on HBOS no that was contrived and the spivs are about to be found out, as it will appear on their balance sheets as well as their salaries.


303

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 13:03:16
340

"The point is that the SNP does not envisage a Scottish Central Bank with its own currency and reserves."

Is there a written statement anywhere confirming this?

"Salmond's aides say that in an independent Scotland, a Scottish central bank would have lent the cash to ensure the company was safe."

this is according to the Scotsman of course but its seems pretty clear that if its true then the SNP do envisiage a Central Scottish bank within an Independent country and that you are wrong on this count.
304

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 13:05:45
347

Thats right ugly I have so to turn your garbage into fact the detail is HBOS does most of its mortgage business in England and most of its other business in Scotland not 80 to 90% of its overall business outside of Scotland.
Which was the whole point behind the merger in the first place.
305

Long time reader, first time poster,

edinburgh 21/09/2008 13:05:47
well, it is easy to have 20:20 hindsight isn't it, and to engage in counter-factual revisionism. Tell us the truth Mr Salmond - did you cost your proposed get out clause before opening your mouth and spouting off about how great you are and how you alone could have saved the bank, scotland and therefore independence. ya fool ya.

As I see it, the issue is one of global capitalism forcing a potential run on HBOS until LloydsTSB stepped in (after a quiet word from the PM) to save the day. One bank (private industry) saved by another bank (private industry) without the massive expense to taxpayers which Salmond's plans would have incurred.

Yes, it's sad. Yes it will lead to job losses in both Scotland and England and Wales - indeed across the whole Union. It is however better than either the bank going to the wall, or indeed the bank being nationalised (which is essentially what the FM was stating should have happened).

But to state that you could have saved the bank mr salmond - phew - thems some big balls you've got to say that.
306

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 13:07:43
339

I am asking somebody I am asking you.
307

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 13:17:12
347

I mean lets face it what was in it for the Halifax to merge with the BOS if all it was going to get was 10% added onto its own business why didnt it go after something more profitable?
And how was it possible for the BOS to last for centuries if all it was worth was 10% of the Halifax?

Do you even think before making up this garbage?
308

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 13:30:10
356 Ronaldo#

Along with the ex-boss of the Bank of England who agrees with the idea.

No worries, Scotland can have Brigadoon and England can have Coventry.
309

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 13:41:35
#355 suchaparcelofrogues

You got it wrong, didn't you check before printing your garbage?
The Bank of Scotland aquired the Halifax, not the other way round.
One key sticking point was that Halifax wanted to retain its name for the English market hence the Halifax Bank of Scotland, HBOS.

To help you with a wee bit of background: The BoS was the only commercial institution created by the Parliament of Scotland to remain in existence. It was also the first bank in Europe to print its own banknotes.

The Governor and Company of the Bank of Scotland was established by an Act of the Parliament of Scotland on 17 July 1695, the Act for erecting a Bank in Scotland, opening for business in February 1696.

Although established soon after the Bank of England (1694), the Bank of Scotland was a very different institution. Where the Bank of England was established specifically to finance defence spending by the English government, the Bank of Scotland was established by the Scottish government to support Scottish business.
Ironically in today's financial climate it was prohibited from lending to the government without parliamentary approval.

310

Publius,

London 21/09/2008 13:42:26
#350 suchaparcelofrogues

If you want to know how a state inside the Eurozone saves a falling bank, watch the news from Ireland over the next few days. The Bank of Ireland, which, like HBOS, goes in for mortgages in a big way both in Ireland and the UK may be sinking. The Irish government seems to be supporting a takeover by Santander, the Spanish bank.
(The Bank of Ireland has a lot of mortgages in the UK, because it took over the Bristol & West Building Society.)
Also in Ireland there may be a merger between Anglo-Irish Bank and the Irish Nationwide Building Society. And the government seems to be supporting that too.
311

,

21/09/2008 13:42:30
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Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 13:42:42
355 suchaparcelofrogues
In your usual abusive fashion you say that my statement of HBOS conducting 80-90% of its business is "garbage"

Are you goingto say that HBOS annual report and accounts are "garbage" as well

The report states that it has "23 million" customers.
This means that even 90% of all the people in Scotland (including babies)were HBOS customers the total number of UK customers that were Scottish would be less than 20% ie within the range I mentioned. Are you going to assert that over 90% of people in Scotland are HBOS customers - that hardly anybody in Scotland uses RBS or Clydesdale? If not you will see that,once again, my statements are true and accurate and your abuse and insults are inaccurate.
313

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 13:45:22
355
PS
That is 23 million UK customers when the total population of Scotland is just over 5 million. Are you telling me that everybody in Scotland is an HBOS customer?
314

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 13:48:14
360 tizer
If you are to avoid making a dick of yourself I'd suggest you learn to spell before slaging off a company brand name.

Ha! you 'losse'.
315

Publius,

London 21/09/2008 13:48:29
#346 Nevsky

I don't believe them.

Mortgage banks have been a disaster. The only one left as a freestanding bank is Bradford and Bingley, and that'll be gone soon.

The danger now is that HBOS will poison LloydsTSB in the way that the Halifax poisoned the Bank of Scotland. Lloyds sold some new shares on Friday 19 September. I wonder how much more money it will need.
316

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 13:48:48
slagging
317

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 13:53:37
361

Nice try Ugly but how many customers constitutes a business? no doubt the report is referring to 23 million mortgages and personal accounts but no reference at all to its business income or business loans which incidently is what the BOS specialises in.
You keep twisting and turning like a wee twisty turny thing trying so hard to fit yer garbage into your made up bile.
318

livilion,

livingston 21/09/2008 13:55:18
#347 Ugly George

The Bank of Scotland aquired the Halifax, not the other way round.
One key sticking point was that Halifax wanted to retain its name for the English market hence the Halifax Bank of Scotland, HBOS.

Sizes of population or location of markets doesn't come into it. eg Nokia doesn't just sell mobile phones in Finland, it is quite common to sell in other countries than your own and do well from it.

319

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 13:56:30
361

And dont forget Ugly mortgage business is intitial cash outlet which only brings the cash back in gradually with interest over a period of normally 25 years which is why its so dodgy. A bank has to sustain itself until the mortgage profits kick in.
Thats where the other business banking comes in.
320

,

21/09/2008 14:01:27
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321

K McDonald,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 14:02:32
£100bn to bail out Salmond's banker buddies! To put this figure in context, one that SNP supporters will understand, £100bn is approximately half the current value of the Norwegian oil fund....a fund that has been built up over a period of 30 years.

Master of the universe Salmond would gamble away £100bn attempting bail out a bunch of economically illiterate bankers operating a failed business that had not been "Scottish" for over 6 years.

Salmond is by far most grotesque populist opportunist currently operating in world democratic politics. He is a disgrace.


322

,

21/09/2008 14:02:37
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,

21/09/2008 14:04:30
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 14:04:38
361

The point being of course George is that 1 business can generate more cash for a bank than a 1000 mortgages and as the population ratio is only about 10 to 1 well you get the idea.
Simplistic maybe but the point is valid.
325

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:09:52
370 McDonald#

How much is Scotlands oil fund worth to date? You mean Norway could afford to fund this with cash? Wow. Good for them.
326

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:10:56
370 McDonald#

Found out the figure for you, Scotland has £0! How did that happen?
327

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:13:21
370#

I have an idea for you not sure if you will go for it though.

Why don't we stay part of the union and in 30 years Norways fund will be worth 1/2 a trillion say and Scotland's can have risen from £0 to mmmm £0...sound a good deal?

Want to talk about finance..then answer the above!
328

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:15:11
Sorry up that figure in 30 years to maybe 1 trillion at least and let's update Scotland's..yes still at £0.
329

,

21/09/2008 14:16:47
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330

E300,

21/09/2008 14:19:05
362 Ugly George
You can ignore population and GDP(similarly the thread's resident comedian suchaparcelofrogues) the sum at risk would be £100bn and there are 2.3mn households in Scotland ie £43,478 per household to prop up one PLC.
331

,

21/09/2008 14:20:11
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 14:22:48
379

The PLC's working in the North sea pass more cash through a bank in a single year than a million mortgages over a 25 year period.
And stop posting to yourself ugly its pathetic.
333

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21/09/2008 14:23:27
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334

K McDonald,

21/09/2008 14:25:16
374 Nevsky,Moscow 21/09/2008 14:09:52

Dear leader salmond Salmond said: "No country can insulate itself from mergers and takeovers, but very few countries would so idly stand by and allow their oldest, key financial institution to be left in the position that HBOS was left in last week."

If Salmond had control of a hypothetical future scottish oil fund (the basis of furure SNP economic policy) then he would indulge in some casino banking with public cash. Public funds would be used to bail out his Edinburgh banking buddy elite.

A bit like Putin propping up the Russian boarse last week by spending the Russian peoples forex cash buying up shares in companies owned by his Sivoliki buddies.
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21/09/2008 14:25:24
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 14:29:48
383

Not every day nor even every month or year or decade only when its necessary to save a financial institute.
In fact its only ever happened once in my lifetime to my knowledge and that was with Northern rock.
Not such a big problem as you try to portrait is it?
A once in a lifetime quick fix compared to a lifetime of national income.
Kind of puts it all into perspective.
337

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:31:52
383 McDonald#

Of cousre you are right, the SNP would use publlic money just like a gambler at a casino..how can anyone argue against your logic.

Oil is part of economic policy because it would be part of the economic income..what is your point regarding this..should they negate it like Norway has done?

But we don't have an oil fund do we?

Not here to discuss Russia so don't know hy you bring that up. Equating Putin with Salmond just puts you in the bracket with other Unionist nutters and idiots on here.
338

E300,

21/09/2008 14:32:15
suchaparcelofrogues,
Scotland 21/09/2008 14:22:48
379

"The PLC's working in the North sea pass more cash through a bank in a single year than a million mortgages over a 25 year period."

Your point being, what?
339

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 14:33:25
387

Read the blog and follow the thread of the arguement.
340

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21/09/2008 14:35:56
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341

brownlie,

21/09/2008 14:36:59
380 Tizer

You are getting mixed up. Chris Hoy is the racerist - Salmond is the politician.
342

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 14:38:56
Hey Rufus and all you defenders of the Union, perhaps you could explain the conents of this docuement. Pay special attention to the following facts:

The result of this merger will result in an increase of 1 billion in annual taxes.

Have a good look at the list of names involved in this takeover, then tell me that this business plan was only just formulated.

Please explain the actions of Brown and Darling, who seem to have totally disregarded British and Scottish Law. Please remember that the Prime Minister and Treasurer of the UK are subject to the same laws as any other citizen.

Please Read Below for some very interesting facts.


Regulatory Announcement

Go to market news section

Company Lloyds TSB Group PLC
TIDM LLOY
Headline Acquisition
Released 07:00 18-Sep-08
Number 7212D07



RNS Number : 7212D
Lloyds TSB Group PLC
18 September 2008

?

NOT FOR RELEASE, PUBLICATION OR DISTRIBUTION, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, IN OR INTO OR FROM CANADA, AUSTRALIA OR JAPAN OR ANY OTHER JURISDICTION WHERE TO DO SO WOULD CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF THE RELEVANT LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE




Recommended acquisition

of

HBOS plc

by

Lloyds TSB Group plc

to be implemented by means of a scheme of arrangement
under sections 895 to 899 of the Companies Act 2006

18 September 2008

Summary

Lloyds TSB and HBOS announce that they have reached agreement on the terms of a recommended acquisition by Lloyds TSB of HBOS. Under the terms of the Acquisition, HBOS Shareholders will receive 0.83 Lloyds TSB Shares for every 1 HBOS Share. The offer values HBOS at £12.2 billion (based on Lloyds TSB's closing price on 17 September 2008 of 279.75 pence). Existing Lloyds TSB Shareholders will own approximately 56 per cent. of the issued share capital of Lloyds TSB as enlarged by the Acquisition and existing HBOS Shareholders approximately 44 per cent.

The Boards of HBOS and Lloyds TSB believe that t
343

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:39:21
McDonald..eedjit:

Tell you what. You hand me your income for the next 30 years ok and i will manage it for you. You will get your Scottish fags and booze and when you moan a bit maybe something to keep you quiet.

After 30 years i will give you nothing back...sound ok to you?

Meanwhile your mate who is in the same job has bought his house, has great healthcare and education for his kids and plenty saings in the bank.

BARGAIN HUH? Yet the real joke is that Scots are still defending it, it's unbelieveable that people like you even exist today to be honest.
344

K McDonald,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 14:41:52
Nevsky,Moscow 21/09/2008 14:31:52
>>Of cousre you are right, the SNP would use publlic money just like a gambler at a casino..how can anyone argue against your logic.>>>

Salmond said in the article above that he would have used £100bn of public cash to bail out HBOS. A bank which had been operating a now defunct business model. He said it. Get over it.


I referred to Putin as it is a perfect example of such folly.

Over to you comrade.
345

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:42:17
McDonald:

Then a third party suggests that you look after your own finances...your answer..i can't do it..i'm useless..i'm a joke..better the position i am in..look what has been done for me...what if what if what if....
346

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 14:42:48
Continued/

The Boards of HBOS and Lloyds TSB believe that the Acquisition is a compelling business combination which offers substantial benefits for shareholders and customers. The Acquisition accelerates Lloyds TSB's stated strategic aim to build the UK's leading financial services company by focusing on growing sustainable earnings streams, based on deep customer relationships.

Lloyds TSB's intention is that the combination will strengthen its ability to serve UK customers in these difficult markets. Specifically Lloyds TSB intends that new lending by the new combined bank for both UK mortgages and SMEs will continue at least at current levels and will expand as market conditions improve. In addition, Lloyds TSB intends to increase the range of products on offer on competitive terms to First Time Buyers ("FTBs"), building on the current shared equity and shared ownership offers.

The Enlarged Group will continue to use The Mound as its Scottish headquarters, will continue to hold its Annual General Meeting in Scotland and will continue to print Bank of Scotland bank notes. In addition the management focus is to keep jobs in Scotland.

Sir Victor Blank will be Chairman and Eric Daniels will be Chief Executive of the Enlarged Group.

The Enlarged Group intends to operate a dividend policy which is consistent with attaining its desired capital ratios and financing the growth of the business. In implementation of these objectives, the Enlarged Group intends to pay the final dividend for the 2008 financial year in shares. Thereafter the Group intends to pay a 2009 dividend based on a payout ratio of 40 per cent. of underlying earnings and a progressive dividend policy thereafter.

Lloyds TSB estimates that a combination with HBOS will lead to an additional contribution to earnings before tax from cost synergies significantly in excess of £1 billion per year by 2011.

It is expected that the Acquisition will lead to accretion in Lloyds TSB's earnings
347

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21/09/2008 14:43:13
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348

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:44:42
393 McDonald:

Why you referring to 'comrade' better try that in the Labour party..that langauge died out here years ago?

Better a 'comrade' than a 'servile dependent junkie' i guess.
349

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 14:46:02
370

Where did the 100bn come from I thought the bail out price was 12.2bn? Oh of course it came from the Scotsman.
Unimpeachable.
350

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:46:30
McDonald:

Incidentally the word is 'tavarish' in Russian, just to help your education along.
351

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 14:48:50
Continued/

It is expected that the Acquisition will lead to accretion in Lloyds TSB's earnings per share of over 20 per cent. per annum including cost synergies (before exceptional items) from 2011. This statement as to financial accretion is not intended to mean that Lloyds TSB's future earnings per share will necessarily exceed or match those of any prior year. These figures are not based on HBOS estimates and have not been approved by HBOS.

The combined group will benefit from a portfolio of strong and trusted brands including Bank of Scotland, Halifax, C&G and Scottish Widows.

It is intended that the Acquisition will be implemented by means of a scheme of arrangement under sections 895 to 899 of the Companies Act. It is expected that the Scheme Document will be posted by November 2008 and that, subject to the satisfaction, or where relevant waiver, of all relevant conditions, the Scheme will become effective and the Acquisition completed at the end of 2008 or early 2009.

The Board of HBOS, in reviewing the Lloyds TSB offer, has given careful consideration to the current market uncertainties and to their potential impact on HBOS. The directors of HBOS, who have been so advised by Morgan Stanley and Dresdner Kleinwort, consider the terms of the Acquisition to be fair and reasonable. In providing their advice, Morgan Stanley and Dresdner Kleinwort have taken into account the commercial assessments of the directors of HBOS. Accordingly, the HBOS Board intends unanimously to recommend that HBOS Shareholders vote in favour of the Scheme.

The Acquisition is conditional on, among other things, certain approvals by Lloyds TSB Shareholders and HBOS Shareholders and the sanction of the Scheme by the Court. Merger control approvals and regulatory clearances from, inter alia, the Financial Services Authority will also need to be obtained. In order to become effective, the Scheme must be approved by a majority in number of HBOS shareholders voting, represent
352

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21/09/2008 14:49:49
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Media 1,

cape town 21/09/2008 14:49:54
Nevsky

Craving independence within a society like North Korea or the former Soviet Union is understandable. But within a country that enjoys civil liberty, that has good employment levels and freedom of movement as well as freedom of speech and an abundance of opportunity, seems odd.

I get the feeling that the call for independence in Scotland is not based on any long term economic segacity, but rather on the immature belief that Scotland would be better off alone because the English treat us with contempt.

Such belief systems are born through the systematic brainwashing of entire generations who actually believe that "Braveheart" was based on fact. The small dog syndrome becomes part and parcel of the national psyche to the point that disturbing levels of pettiness will arise in almost all walks of life. Whether it is the BBC calling Andy Murray British or the London olympics, some Scots will find reason to feel threatened or insulted. Such resentment is not healthy and when men like Salmond tap into that sort of disturbing belief system you are heading toward a very slippery slope - not that he cares, he is after all a politician and cannot be trusted!

The United States thrives as the most powerful nation on the planet because they are ONE NATION as opposed to 52 independent countries. Their union or united states works and whilst one state will produce more of one thing, it will produce less of another, thus in the end the entire systems works to the benefit of all involved.
Mature people who love Scotland are not tarnished with the same brush as the immature Scots who worry, panic and dislike England to the point they forget to love Scotland.
SNP = short sighted historical brainwashing and a tendency to be anti English as opposed to Pro Scottish!
DENIAL = The SNP
354

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:50:14
McDaonald:

Seem to remember Broon bailing out Norther Rock as nationalising it...presumably this is even greater folly..orare you the last one left supporting Brown..what's it like...being the last defender of Bron in the uk...well you and Des that is..makes 2...possible resurgence even.
355

K McDonald,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 14:51:35
Nevsky,Moscow 21/09/2008 14:39:21
McDonald..eedjit:

>>>Tell you what. You hand me your income for the next 30 years ok and i will manage it for you. You will get your Scottish fags and booze and when you moan a bit maybe something to keep you quiet.

After 30 years i will give you nothing back...sound ok to you?>>>

Salmond would blow £100bn of Scottish peoples cash to trying to bail out an utterly failed business. Get over it.

Another thing that needs answering. How many high value SNP supporters began moving their cash out of HBOS last week - while the run on the share price was in full flight and before the takeover was announced?

Run on bank + run on share price = doomed



356

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 14:55:41
404 Cape Town:

In response to your long winded drivel:

No-one is anti-English though you seem obsessed with this idea.

Independence is EXACTLY because in controlling our own affairs i and a lot of other people believe we would be better of and not only in financial terms.

Scotland is not a state, it is a country.

Seem to remember South Africa had a little war to gain it's independence. Will you argue that they should give it up and become part of empire again? If not, why not?
357

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 14:57:54
Coninued/

representing three-fourths in value of the HBOS Shares that are voted, at the Court Meeting. In addition, a special resolution implementing the Scheme and sanctioning the related reduction of capital must be passed by HBOS Shareholders representing 75 per cent. of the votes cast at the HBOS Extraordinary General Meeting.

Commenting on the Acquisition, Sir Victor Blank, Chairman of Lloyds TSB said:

"This will be a unique opportunity to accelerate and extend our strategy and create the UK's leading financial services group.

Lloyds TSB/HBOS's outstanding franchise will enable it to service more of its customers needs with the balance sheet strength to prosper in challenging markets. This is a good deal for customers and shareholders."

Commenting on the Acquisition, Dennis Stevenson, Chairman of HBOS, said:

"This is the right transaction for HBOS and its shareholders. Against the backdrop of the very high levels of volatility our industry is experiencing, the combined group will be one of the strongest players in the UK financial services sector. In addition, the combined group will have excellent brands and a very powerful franchise. We are recommending our shareholders vote for this transaction."

This summary should be read in conjunction with, and is subject to, the full text of this announcement and the appendices hereto. Appendix I to this announcement contains the conditions to, and certain further terms of, the Acquisition. Appendix II to this announcement contains further details of the bases and sources of information contained in this announcement. Appendix III contains definitions of certain expressions used in this summary and in this announcement.

Lloyds TSB is being advised by Merrill Lynch who is also providing corporate broking advice. Citi is corporate broker and is also providing financial advice to Lloyds TSB. Lazard is also providing financial advice to Lloyds TSB. HBOS is being advised by Morgan Stanley who is l
358

E300,

21/09/2008 14:58:07
"Thereafter the Group intends to pay a 2009 dividend based on a payout ratio of 40 per cent. of underlying earnings and a progressive dividend policy thereafter."

That should please the Lloyd TSB shareholders. 40% of earnings ravaged by the mis-managed HBOS losses and a final dividend diluting their shareholdings instead of a cash dividend and 60% of earnings as at present. Looks like future dividends of c.20p instead of 35P per share, marvellous!
359

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 15:01:03
continued/

who is lead financial adviser and joint corporate broker to HBOS. Dresdner Kleinwort is financial adviser and joint corporate broker to HBOS.

Enquiries:



Lloyds TSB



Michael Oliver (Director of Investor Relations)
+44 (0) 207 356 2167

Amy Mankelow (Media Relations)
+44 (0) 207 356 1497

Merrill Lynch - Financial Adviser to Lloyds TSB
+44 (0) 207 628 1000

Matthew Greenburgh



Henrietta Baldock



Citi - Corporate Broker to Lloyds TSB
+44 (0) 207 986 0000

David James



Andrew Thompson



Merrill Lynch - Joint Corporate Broker on the Transaction
+44 (0) 207 628 1000

Michael Findlay



Mark Astaire



Finsbury - PR advisor to Lloyds TSB
+44 (0) 207 251 3801

Roland Rudd



Mike Smith



HBOS



Charles Wycks - Director of Investor Relations
+44 207 905 9600

Shane O'Riordain - General Manager, Group Communications
+44 131 243 7195
+44 7770 544 585 (mobile)

Morgan Stanley - Lead Financial Advisor to HBOS
+44 207 425 8000

Investment Banking



Simon Robey



William Chalmers



Corporate Broking - Joint Corporate Broker



Paul Baker



Mark Brooker



Dresdner Kleinwort - Financial Adviser to HBOS
+44 (0) 207 623 8000

David Hutchison



Stewart Bennett



Corporate Broking - Joint Corporate Broker



Jim Hamilton



Alex Reynolds







THIS ANNOUNCEMENT DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN OFFER TO SELL, OR AN INVITATION TO SUBSCRIBE FOR OR PURCHASE, ANY SECURITIES OR THE SOLICITATION OF ANY APPROVAL IN ANY JURISDICTION, NOR SHALL THERE BE ANY SALE, ISSUANCE OR TRANSFER OF THE SECURITIES REFERRED TO IN THIS ANNOUNCEMENT IN ANY JURISDICTION IN CONTRAVENTION OF APPLICABLE LAW.

The distribution of this announcement in jurisdictions other than the United Kingdom and the United States may be restricted by law and therefore persons into whose possession this announcement
360

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 15:03:07
404 McDonald:

How do you know are you an economist? How can you say he is gambling anything, you have no knowledge on the subject of governement bonds and securities..any more than i do i am guessing.

Still have not answered if you agree with Brown nationalising Northern Rock..this was nationalisation and not securities..so you agree or not?

Latly the union has probably blown £1 trillion of Scottish revenue in mis-managing the oil fund..but a price worth paying for the union for you...for me it's a disgrace that people like you have and will continue to affect the prosperity of this country because you can't think for yourself.
361

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 15:04:25
Continued/

comes should inform themselves about, and observe, such restrictions. Any failure to comply with the restrictions may constitute a violation of the securities laws of any such jurisdiction.

This announcement has been prepared for the purposes of complying with Scottish law, the Listing Rules, the rules of the London Stock Exchange and the City Code and the information disclosed may not be the same as that which would have been disclosed if this announcement had been prepared in accordance with the laws and regulations of any jurisdiction outside of the United Kingdom.

The New Lloyds TSB Shares and New Lloyds TSB ADRs to be received by HBOS Shareholders and holders of HBOS ADRs, respectively under the Scheme have not been, and will not be, registered under the Securities Act or under the securities laws of any state, district or other jurisdiction of the United States, or of Canada, Australia or Japan and no regulatory clearances in respect of the registration of New Lloyds TSB Shares have been, or will be, applied for in any such jurisdiction. It is expected that the New Lloyds TSB Shares and New Lloyds TSB ADRs will be issued in reliance upon the exemption from the registration requirements of the Securities Act provided by Section 3(a)(10) thereof. This transaction has not been and will not be approved or disapproved by the SEC, nor has the SEC or any US state securities commission passed upon the merits or fairness of the transaction nor upon the adequacy or accuracy of the information contained in this document. Any representation to the contrary is a criminal offence in the United States. Under applicable US securities laws, HBOS Shareholders holders of HBOS ADRs who are or will be "affiliates" of Lloyds TSB prior to or after the Effective Date will be subject to certain transfer restrictions relating to the New Lloyds TSB Shares and New Lloyds TSB ADRs received in connection with the Scheme.

Lloyds TSB and HBOS strongly advise
362

vimto,

21/09/2008 15:05:15
403. Funny that,seeing he got a standing ovation at the labour conference yesterday!
363

Media 1,

Cape Town 21/09/2008 15:06:05
Nevsky

You are speaking absolute nonsense.
And your take on South Africa is so short sighted it exposes you for the fool you are. Apartheid was supported by the West on the basis that the Russian funded ANC could not be permitted to gain power of Africa's southern most tip during the cold war.

But in keeping with that history, let us remember that the many people who were fighting for their freedom in SA were not aware of the cold war politics. To them, it was all about civil liberties and the right to human dignity -things that Scots have enjoyed for centuries under the union.

And another thing, your attempts to disguise the anti English rhetoric that exists in Scotland is either sheer denial or blatant lies - it exists and exists with venom! And men like Salmond tap into it...brainwashed adults and ill informed adolescents buy into it!
364

vimto,

21/09/2008 15:07:29
JKs next book is going to be,"Alex Salmond and the land of make believe".
365

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21/09/2008 15:08:03
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,

21/09/2008 15:08:54
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A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 15:10:01
Continued/

strongly advise Lloyds TSB Shareholders and HBOS Shareholders to read the formal documentation relating to the Acquisition when it becomes available because it will contain important information relating to the Acquisition. Any response in relation to the Acquisition should be made only on the basis of the information contained in the formal documentation relating to the Acquisition. This announcement does not constitute a prospectus or prospectus equivalent document.

Merrill Lynch is acting as sole financial adviser and is also providing corporate broking advice to Lloyds TSB and no one else in connection with the Acquisition and will not be responsible to anyone other than Lloyds TSB for providing advice in relation to the transaction or any other matter referred to herein.

Citi is acting as corporate broker to Lloyds TSB and is also providing financial advice to Lloyds TSB. It is acting for no one else in connection with the Transaction and will not be responsible to anyone other than Lloyds TSB for providing protections afforded to the clients of Citi, nor for providing advice in relation to the Acquisition or any other matters referred to herein.

Lazard also provided financial advice to Lloyds TSB.

Morgan Stanley is acting for HBOS as financial adviser and no one else in connection with the Acquisition and will not be responsible to anyone other than HBOS for providing the protections afforded to customers of Morgan Stanley nor for providing advice in relation to the Acquisition, or any matter referred to herein.

Dresdner Kleinwort Limited, which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority, is acting for HBOS and for no one else in connection with the Offer and will not be responsible to anyone other than HBOS for providing the protections afforded to clients of Dresdner Kleinwort Limited or for affording advice in relation to the Offer or any other matters referred to in this announcement.

Dealing Disclos
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21/09/2008 15:10:51
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369

vimto,

21/09/2008 15:12:27
412.Salmond thrives on anti English rhetoric,without such hatred towards anything English,salnond and the snp would be nothing.
370

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 15:14:20
Continued/




Dealing Disclosure Requirements

Under the provisions of Rule 8.3 of the City Code, if any person is, or becomes, "interested" (directly or indirectly) in one per cent. or more of any class of "relevant securities" of Lloyds TSB or HBOS, all "dealings" in any " relevant securities" of that company (including by means of an option in respect of, or a derivative referenced to, any such "relevant securities") must be publicly disclosed by no later than 3.30 pm (London time) on the London business day following the date of the relevant transaction. This requirement will continue until the date on which the Scheme becomes effective, or on which the "offer period" for the purposes of the City Code otherwise ends. If two or more persons act together pursuant to an agreement or understanding, whether formal or informal, to acquire an "interest" in "relevant securities" of Lloyds TSB or HBOS, they will be deemed to be a single person for the purpose of Rule 8.3.

Under the provisions of Rule 8.1 of the City Code, all "dealings" in "relevant securities" of Lloyds TSB or HBOS by Lloyds TSB or HBOS, or by any of their respective "associates", must be disclosed by no later than 12.00 noon (London time) on the London business day following the date of the relevant transaction.

A disclosure table, giving details of the companies in whose "relevant securities" "dealings" should be disclosed, and the number of such securities in issue, can be found on the Panel's website at www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk.

"Interests in securities" arise, in summary, when a person has long economic exposure, whether conditional or absolute, to changes in the price of securities. In particular, a person will be treated as having an "interest" by virtue of the ownership or control of securities, or by virtue of any option in respect of, or derivative referenced to, securities.

Terms in quotation marks are defined in the Code, which can also be found on the Panel's website.
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21/09/2008 15:14:43
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vimto,

21/09/2008 15:15:02
417. Just to let you know before you make an even bigger fool of yourself,i don't have a sister!
373

,

21/09/2008 15:16:00
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374

K McDonald,

21/09/2008 15:16:10
409 Nevsky,Moscow 21/09/2008 15:03:07
How can you say he is gambling anything, you have no knowledge on the subject of governement bonds and securities..any more than i do i am guessing.>>

Salmond would extend a £100bn credit line to a totally doomed business. That is gambling.




375

E300,

21/09/2008 15:16:12
398 suchaparcelofrogues,
Stop being a prat. The £12bn was not a bail out, it was for LLOYDS to take over the insolvent HBOS. Also it was not cash it was ju st each HBOS share being exchanged for 0.83 of a LLOYDS share. As for the £100bn that is the value of HBOS loans up for renewal within the next 2 months, which could notbe renewed because buyers considered probably rightly that HBOS would be insolvent.
376

vimto,

21/09/2008 15:16:24
420. Why would anyone in their right mind vote for a facist party!
377

Martyk,

21/09/2008 15:16:47
Has Alex lost the run of himself completely? £100 Billion is just short of Scotlands entire GDP for a year. It would be like the Bank of England giving one and a half trillion pounds to Northern Rock or the yanks giving $11 Trillion to Lehman Bros. Complete insanity. I understand he is upset at one of his 3 pillars being lost but this is laughable. And rather sad.
378

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 15:17:14
412.Africans Nutter:

I was referring to the Boer war so try and sharpen your perception a bit.

Again you are keen to stress anti-Englshness..even to the point of obsession...you do it in just about every post..so i will say again there is NO anti-Englishness in the SNP...this is Tory stuff from 1982 for God's sake... so you really are an ill-informed idiot to take that route.

Lastly the spurious agrument that Scotland should stay in the union because of no human rights breaches is just laughable...so what?

We are talking about the future prosperity of the country...that is the debate...try and get up to date..you are a prise bore and are out of touch.
379

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 21/09/2008 15:17:27
Continued/

If you are in any doubt as to whether or not you are required to disclose a "dealing" under Rule 8, you should consult the Panel.

Forward Looking Statements

This document includes certain "forward looking statements" with respect to the business, strategy and plans of Lloyds TSB Group and HBOS and their respective expectations relating to the Acquisition and their future financial condition and performance. Statements that are not historical facts, including statements about Lloyds TSB Group's or HBOS's or their respective management's beliefs and expectations, are forward looking statements. Words such as "believes", "anticipates", "estimates", "expects", "intends", "aims", "potential", "will", "would", "could", "considered", "likely", "estimate" and variations of these words and similar future or conditional expressions are intended to identify forward looking statements but are not the exclusive means of identifying such statements. By their nature, forward looking statements involve risk and uncertainty because they relate to events and depend upon future circumstances that may or may not occur.

Examples of such forward looking statements include, but are not limited to, statements about expected benefits and risks associated with the Acquisition, projections or expectations of profit attributable to shareholders, anticipated provisions or write-downs, economic profit, dividends, capital structure or any other financial items or ratios; statements of plans, objectives or goals of Lloyds TSB, HBOS or the combined business following the Acquisition; statements about the future trends in interest rates, liquidity, foreign exchange rates, stock market levels and demographic trends and any impact that those matters may have on Lloyds TSB, HBOS or the combined company following the Acquisition; statements concerning any future UK, US or other economic environment or performance; statements about strategic goals, competition, regulation, regulat
380

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 15:18:30
423 McDaonald:


For the third time were you in favour or Brown nationalising Northern Rock????
381

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21/09/2008 15:19:19
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382

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 15:19:38
366/371 suchaparcelof rogues
One of HBOS reports (2004)mentioned 79% of corporate banking being in the rest of the UK.

Add on to that their high level of exposure in the English property market and you gat a combined figure of easily over 80% ot total operations.

You just will not accept facts will you?
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regulation, regulatory approvals, dispositions and consolidation or technological developments in the financial services industry; and statements of assumptions underlying such statements.

Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from the plans, objectives, expectations, estimates and intentions expressed in such forward looking statements made by Lloyds TSB or HBOS or on their behalf include, but are not limited to, general economic conditions in the United Kingdom, the United States or elsewhere; regulatory scrutiny, legal proceedings or complaints; changes in competition and pricing environments; the inability to hedge certain risks economically; the adequacy of loss reserves; the ability to secure new customers and develop more business from existing customers; the Acquisition not being completed or not being completed as currently envisaged; additional unanticipated costs associated with the Acquisition or the operating of the combined company; or an inability to implement the strategy of the combined company or achieve the Acquisition benefits set out herein. Additional factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from forward looking statements are set out in the most recent annual reports and accounts of the Lloyds TSB Group and HBOS, including Lloyds TSB Group's most recent annual report on Form 20-F filed with the SEC.

Forward-looking statements only speak as of the date on which they are made, and the events discussed herein may not occur. Subject to compliance with applicable law and regulation, neither Lloyds TSB nor HBOS undertakes any obligation to update publicly or revise forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.

No statement in this announcement is intended to constitute a profit forecast for any period, nor should any statements be interpreted to mean that earnings or earnings per share will necessarily be greater or lesser than tho
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lesser than those for the relevant preceding financial periods for either Lloyds TSB or HBOS as appropriate.



NOT FOR RELEASE, PUBLICATION OR DISTRIBUTION, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, IN OR INTO OR FROM CANADA, AUSTRALIA OR JAPAN OR ANY OTHER JURISDICTION WHERE TO DO SO WOULD CONSTITUTE A VIOLATION OF THE RELEVANT LAWS OF SUCH JURISDICTION.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Recommended acquisition

of

HBOS plc

by

Lloyds TSB Group plc

to be implemented by means of a scheme of arrangement
under sections 895 to 899 of the Companies Act 2006

Introduction

Lloyds TSB and HBOS announce that they have reached agreement on the terms of a recommended acquisition by Lloyds TSB of HBOS, which is to be effected by means of a scheme of arrangement under sections 895 to 899 of the Companies Act.

The Board of HBOS, in reviewing the Lloyds TSB offer, has given careful consideration to the current market uncertainties and to their potential impact on HBOS. The directors of HBOS, who have been so advised by Morgan Stanley and Dresdner Kleinwort, consider the terms of the Acquisition to be fair and reasonable. In providing their advice, Morgan Stanley and Dresdner Kleinwort have taken into account the commercial assessments of the directors of HBOS. Accordingly, the HBOS Board intends unanimously to recommend that HBOS Shareholders vote in favour of the Scheme.

The sources and bases of information contained in this announcement are set out in Appendix II. The definitions of certain expressions used in this announcement are contained in Appendix III.

The Acquisition

Under the Scheme, and subject to the Conditions and further terms set out in Appendix I and the full terms and conditions that will be set out in the Scheme Document, Lloyds TSB will issue New Lloyds TSB Shares to HBOS Shareholders on the following basis:

for every 1 HBOS Share 0.83 New Lloyds TSB Share

Holders of HBOS ADRs will be entitled to receive 0.2075 Llo
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Media 1,

cape town 21/09/2008 15:26:53
Nevsky

So you are suggesting that Scotland would be a wealthier, more efficient, more suitable and more desirable place to reside under an independent government?

And you come to this conclusion based on?

Prior to even contemplating the abundance of wealth, jobs and industry that is going to pop up all over the place and turn Scotland into the world's most amazing little country, please tell me what NEW systems in this independent Scotland are going to open up all these doors that are apparently closed to us at the moment?

Anti Englishness is at the VERY HEART of all SNP ideology.. To deny it is nothing more than sheer refutation.
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Lloyds TSB ADRs for each HBOS ADR cancelled pursuant to the Scheme.

Based on the Closing Price of 279.75 per Lloyds TSB Share on 17 September 2008, being the last Business Day prior to this announcement, the Acquisition values each HBOS Share at 232 pence and the existing issued share capital of HBOS at approximately £12.2 billion.

Existing Lloyds TSB Shareholders will own approximately 56 per cent. of the issued share capital of Lloyds TSB as enlarged by the Acquisition and existing HBOS Shareholders approximately 44 per cent.

Background to and reasons for the Acquisition

The Boards of HBOS and Lloyds TSB believe that the acquisition is a compelling business combination which offers substantial benefits for shareholders and customers.

The enlarged group will have excellent breadth and balance with strong positions in Retail, Corporate Banking, SME Business Banking and Long Term Savings. The enlarged group will have a substantial direct personal customer base and the means to unlock the significant commercial opportunities offered by Lloyds TSB's and HBOS's partnerships and alliances.

The acquisition of HBOS accelerates Lloyds TSB's stated strategic aim to build the UK's leading financial services company by focusing on growing sustainable earnings streams, based on deep customer relationships.

Going forward, successful banks will need to have excellent customer reach backed up by robust capital and liquidity positions, with liability growth coming principally from retail and commercial deposits and with asset growth founded on the strongest possible credit risk management. And they will need class leading cost and capital efficiency to be economically profitable in a world where capital requirements are likely to be higher. The new Group is very well positioned for this environment.

Both banks have been extremely successful at growing their retail savings business. The Groups substantial customer base will give it the best po
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K McDonald,

Glasgow 21/09/2008 15:32:08
429 Nevsky,Moscow 21/09/2008 15:18:30
For the third time were you in favour or Brown nationalising Northern Rock????

Thread is about Salmond and his proposal to throw £100bn of public cash into the pockets of global "spivs and speculators" (surfing a one-way-bet) in a vain attempt to save a doomed business.

How many SNP supporters, who have more than £35k in savings in HBOS & RBS, shifted their cash out last week?

Hands up.....
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cape town 21/09/2008 15:32:12
I need to get going, the 12 apostles at this time of the day is quite stunning! High tea and a couple of scones overlooking the very beautiful Atlantic Ocean reminds me of why life is tremendously good.

The SNP reminds of me of why the lives of so many will become so awful..

But as we know, Scotland is still a member of a truly wonderful partnership and until that changes her fortunes are good.

Totsiens julle
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Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 15:32:36
366/371
Suchaparcelofrogues

PS If you check back to the details of the merger between Halifax and Bank of Scotland in 2001, the Halifax shareholders received 63% of the the equity in the new company and BoS shareholderers only 37%. As you can see - Halifax was the much bigger partner. Since then HBOS which (as you said specialises in business banking) used the Halifax outlet to expand rapidly its business banking operations to the rest of the UK - that was one of the main reasons for the merger. So you had a situation where a substantial majority of the new company's operations were in the reswt of the UK from day 1. Since then the company has sought to expand rapidly other (business banking) operations into the rest of the UK. That is why the vast majority of HBOS business is in the rest of the UK. It's a fact - accept it and move on.
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vimto,

21/09/2008 15:34:02
433. At 53 years old,with a mother who is 82,and a father that has been dead for 17 years,think it's a little late for a sibling!
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Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 15:34:40
436 Nutter:

So you are suggesting that Scotland would be a wealthier, more efficient, more suitable and more desirable place to reside under an independent government?

Answer: Yes

'please tell me what NEW systems in this independent Scotland are going to open up all these doors that are apparently closed to us at the moment?'

Answer: lowering corporation tax (just to start)


'Anti Englishness is at the VERY HEART of all SNP ideology.. To deny it is nothing more than sheer refutation'

Answer: rubbish but again you bring it up. I suggest you report this to the police and make you case, let us know how you get on won't you!



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vimto,

21/09/2008 15:38:33
438. Go and play your nasty little games some place else,you may not like my opinion of salmond and the snp,but it's my opinion,so as my daghter would say TOUGH NUTS!
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Nevsky,

Moscow 21/09/2008 15:40:30
439 McDonald:

Totally clear now that your argument is hypocritical so why bother making it in the first place?

You suport Brown nationalising Northern Rock but yet are scathing when a states a less risky alternative?

See now wy Labour are losing in Scotland, you are all liars, hypocrites and troglydites.
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 21/09/2008 15:41:42
I'll never understand my fellow Scots. Just about every other nation on earth thinks it's the right, natural and obvious thing for a nation to rule itself. Only the Scots seem to think they're too stupid, feckless and inadequate to do so. It's sad we have such a low opinion of ourselves.
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vimto,

21/09/2008 15:42:18
446.That my stupid friend is my husbands mother and she is 86. Now we are here to discuss how salmond could of possibly saved HBOS,so take your childish pranks and bog off.
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suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 21/09/2008 15:45:48
441

No Ugly that only proves it had more shareholders or that some of their shareholders got a bigger piece of the pie than others. It doesnt prove it takes in a proportional slice of business or capital.
Halifax was the UKs largest mortgage retailer but as I said before, mortgages only make money over long periods and even that isnt guaranteed income and only after intitial capital output.
BOS was a business bank specialising in business loans and customers. The interest charged on business loans is much higher than the interest charged on mortgages and the amounts are usually much much higher in some extreme cases billions but with business loans you dont have to wait 25 years for repayment the loan is usually only over a few year period.
Its actually apples and oranges and comparring the income from both sectors at any given time would be pointless as both profit over different stages in time.
You generally require a hell of a lot of mortgage business to compare with a single large business interest. And in the case of large PLCs millions of mortgages.
Give it a rest.
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vimto,

21/09/2008 15:52:59
tizer. you are obviouly some kind of nutter,who for some reason known only to yourself,seems to get your kicks out of disturbing my posts,well,sorry my sad sicko eejit,your time is up!
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Braes of Glenmiller,

21/09/2008 16:00:04
Care in the Community obviously doesn't work.
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Braes of Glenmiller,

21/09/2008 16:12:28
To take a more constructive view......us Scots have always been divided, from the mists of history right up to the present day.

Formidable fighters who served as feared mercenaries in the armies of the Swedish and