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Pulling plug on water monopoly



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Published Date: 04 March 2008
Scots businesses will be first in the world to have choice of suppliers, writes MARTYN McLAUGHLIN
IT IS considered the most wide-reaching development ever in the Scottish water industry, and the most significant in the UK for a generation.

Whether it is a newsagents in the Shetland Islands, or a major housebuilding concern in Edinburgh, tens of thousands of Scottish businesses will have the right to choose their water and sewerage suppliers from the beginning of next month.

Some 94,000 commercial customers across 130,000 properties will have the option to abandon Scottish Water for one of a growing number of firms from England tapping into a market worth £330 million.

Competition, many believe, is long overdue in the water industry. Only last month, a government report ruled that businesses are being overcharged by almost £70 million a year by Scottish Water to subsidise household bills. MSPs have also condemned the organisation for its waste of treated water, estimated at one billion litres a day.

No-one can accuse the state-owned organisation of complacency, having spent more than £2 billion repairing its network, but the shake-up is being welcomed.

Addressing a conference entitled The Future of Scotland's Water, the man at the helm of the nation's water watchdog yesterday spoke enthusiastically of the transition ahead.

Alan Sutherland, the chief executive of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland (WICS), said: "It is probably the most significant change in the water industry in Great Britain for some 20 years. Perhaps it is the most significant change ever to affect the industry in Scotland.

"Real choice… competition… is coming to the water and sewerage industry in Scotland. Competition in the Scottish water industry will help ensure that customers see further significant improvements in value for money."

The changes, the WICS insists, will not mean business customers face extortionate bills, as is the case with electricity and gas. Significantly, the wholesale charges imposed by Scottish Water on licensed suppliers will be regulated, so as to rule out the volatility in retail prices in the energy markets.

That means providers will be required to offer a standard level of service for a standard tariff – a default tariff. With limits set on any increases in the tariff until 2010 – which are on average less than the rate of retail price inflation – businesses will not face exorbitant costs.

Iain McMillan, the director of CBI Scotland, which represents about 26,000 Scottish firms, said: "It is comforting for business that the default tariff is no more than the maximum charge customers would have paid to Scottish Water if competition had not been introduced."

However, as is to be expected with a scheme of such seismic change, difficulties are feared. Given the volume of non-household customers that will have the option to switch supplier, there are concerns of a backlog in the first months.

The Central Market Agency, a company owned by Scottish Water and all the other licensed providers, believes it will take six days to process a customer's switchover. Multiply the number of interested parties by a figure reaching into the thousands, however, and the CMA may have to revise its timescales.

The part-deregulation of the quango is one which Mr McMillan believes should pave the way for its full privatisation, a step he believes could free £180 million of public money a year. "The current nationalised business model of Scottish Water belongs in a bygone era – the era of the 1960s and 1970s when high and unnecessary public expenditure and taxes were needed to fund a whole raft of publicly owned utilities and other businesses – all with their inefficiencies, defects and high prices to the consumer," he said.

"The Scottish Government needs to throw off one of the last remnants of its 'public good – private bad' mentality and come into the 21st century."

A spokesman for the Scottish Government last night refused to rule out such a move, explaining: "This is the first time anywhere in the world, that non-domestic users will be able to choose their own water suppliers. We will monitor how the introduction of competition for non-domestic users develops over the coming months."

There are rumblings that the Scottish Government is intent on keeping a closer eye on Scottish Water's performance. Also present at yesterday's Holyrood conference was Stewart Stevenson, the infrastructure minister, who said household customers should get rebates if Scottish Water lets them down.

He said: "While the industry may be in good shape today, we must ensure it is in even better shape in the future. We must maintain the best aspects we have and improve on all the others."

He said Scottish Water deserved congratulation for its "great strides" on improving customer service, but warned it must offer value for money.

"When customers pay for a service, they rightly expect to receive good quality service. In most commercial areas this is a given, but it is not so in the water industry," he said.

"We should therefore also consider setting a guaranteed minimum service. Considering customer rebates when service fails is an example of how the industry could innovate."

The minister added: "Public bodies are often criticised for being unimaginative and innovation averse. We cannot let that happen with Scottish Water."

Unison's Dave Watson told the conference that Scottish Water needed "greater accountability" rather than privatisation.

"Unison, along with the STUC and the other unions involved in the water industry, have been engaged in the debate about the future of Scottish Water, and we all believe that there should be greater democratisation of the service, so we want any review to clearly address proposals to deliver that accountability," he said.

BATTLE FOR COMMERCIAL CUSTOMERS
UNDER the changes, Scottish Water will be split into two companies. The first will retain the Scottish Water name, and continue to provide services to over two million household customers and control the nation's pipes, sewers, and treatment works.

From next month, though, it will provide water at wholesale prices to commercial customers, among them its own newly-established arms-length retail offshoot, Scottish Water Business Stream (SWBS).

It will compete with two Berkshire-based firms. The first, Satec, is understood to be in negotiations with the likes of food producers and distilleries.

The second, Aquavitae, can count over 100 contracts for private concerns in England and Wales, among them the likes of Heinz and East Sussex NHS Trust. Owned by a ring of wealthy individuals, it is a subsidiary of Vitae, a private equity group based in Jersey.

Already, it has signed up Four Seasons Health Care, which operates 58 Scottish care homes.

"Scotland is a place where we can do business," said Michael Samorzewski, Aquavitae's managing director. "The regulatory system devised by the Water Industry Commission for Scotland encourages competition, and will enable us to offer choice and lower prices to Scottish business users."

Significantly, such English firms are limited in their home country to supplying water for customers using less than 50,000 litres a year. In Scotland, they can tender for a full range of services.

Others firms, both "big and small", will follow, according to Alan Sutherland, chief executive of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland (WICS).

The likeliest candidates are thought to be firms such as Thames Water.


The full article contains 1222 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 March 2008 9:22 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Water
 
1

,

04/03/2008 00:26:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

subrosa,

04/03/2008 00:31:50
Am I being thick here? This is the first I've heard of Scottish Water being privatised in this way. Thought the SNP government were against privatisation just the other week. Ok, ok I'm thick.
3

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 00:35:08
This is outrageous.

This is No.1 on the survival list and there has been no question asked as to privatising our water publicly.

This is the water of life and no one other than the government( An independent Scottish government) should run this.

To be able to enter in to a "competitive bargaining shop" mentality will ONLY result in commercial interests and deterioration of the service of piped water and all the related services down the sewer.

Madness.

Crown jewels on e-bay any one?

Write to your MP your MSP immediately.
4

I eat cookies wrapped in scotch tape,

04/03/2008 00:39:14
Same pipes, same taps, same sewers.

How the farking cr4p do you privatise a basic human need/ right?
5

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 00:40:37
"Scots businesses will be first in the world to have choice of suppliers"

What is the societal media fix with choice ?

Water is the ultimate necessity.

The only choice that should be exercised is by a Scottish Government as to which the most suitable Scots engineers should devise the most excellent methods for treatment and vitality of our sacred and beloved and essential resource water.
6

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:01:19
The Scottish Government needs to throw off one of the last remnants of its 'public good – private bad' mentality and come into the 21st century."

PFI ?

Royal Mail with 17 interdependent subcompanies wrecking the flow?

Rail track and the plethora of British wide locomitive companies that neglect the very rails they ride on.

UNBELIVABLE.

So divide and ruin tactics from the english again.

Scottish Water, SWBS ! Rot from the inside out.
7

Navvy,

04/03/2008 01:02:49
The cost of domestic water is already higher in Scotland than in countries like Singapore where much of the water is imported and a significant amount is from desalination.

How does Scottish water manage to achieve that price. Take Edinburgh, the reservoirs were paind for a generation ago. The cost is iniquitous and yet this article suggests that domestic water cost is subsidised - unbelievable

Moreover, and I have done the research, there is absolutely no incentive for me to have a metered supply so what I do is leave the mains tap on to keep my mini hydro scheme running which does at least keep the electricity bill down a smidgen
8

Navvy,

04/03/2008 01:04:22
Oh and bye the bye, Edinburgh's water was fine in both cost and quality until it was stolen and given to the useless Scottish Water

ASctually is it God's water and it is being mismanaged by inept Scottish .................
9

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:04:47
For Scotlands sake we NEED independence so soon, there won't be anything of Scotland left.


INDEPENDENCE NOW

IMMEDIATE REFERENDUM FOR MAY 2008

WAKE UP, YOUR COUNTRY IS DYING IN FRONT OF YOUR VERY EYES AND YOUR DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT.

WAKE UP

10

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:07:34
8 "Scottish Water" If it were our company it would n't have the "Scottish" bit. Numptie.

The Water Company HQ? Inverness? Edinburgh?
11

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:09:29
Pull the plug on the english system.
12

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:14:43
Loch lot laugh

Reservoir bunch corode
13

Charles Hand,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:20:41
Look Hard Right. Scottish Water is no good.

It is the worst performing water company in the United Kingdom, losing more water per day than anyone else, having a poorer quality of water with lots of bacteria in it, and run down sewerage infrastructure, like the plant that was leaking millions of tons of poo into the Firth of Forth last year. AND it costs more than anywhere else, and you have to pay a flat charge, no matter how little water you use. Talk about lose lose.

I want to be able to choose a water company that provides the best quality of water, and a sewerage company that reliably processes waste without impacting the environment, both of which with a competitive metered price.

I do think that pipes in major urban areas need to be maintained by a not-for profit company though, as you can't have competing companies spawning multiple pipe networks, the roads are already appalling enough in Edinburgh!
14

Charles Hand,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:22:33
And I want to be able to use the biggest reservoir in the Pentland hills to row / kayak on. There are too many bloody fishermen.
15

Charles Hand,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 01:25:49
And water is not a basic right at all. It is a service provided to you just like anything else. If you don't want to use the service, you can always build your own well in your garden.
16

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 04/03/2008 02:04:16
THE FIRST THING THAT GOT MY EYE WAS ENGLISH COMPANYS TO SELL YOU SCOTTISH WATER WHAT A JOKE PROBABLY LORD AND LADY TAP
17

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2008 02:10:05
I believe this is a clever ploy to allow private companies to pay for the upgrading of the water network, relieving the ordinary people of Scotland of the burden, whilst keeping water in public ownership.

Another Unionist Alliance attempt at privatisation gone wrong. They didn't factor in an SNP Government.

18

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 04/03/2008 02:10:58
WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS SCOTTISH GOVERMENT WHERE ARE THEY WHAT ARE THEY DOING
19

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 03:34:40
A couple of weeks ago it was mutualisation.
Now it's privatisation.
I smell rip off.

HANDS OFF OUR WATER!
20

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 03:36:35
Once you make water a commodity you can never change it back. Water is not a commodity - it is a necessity and a common goods.
21

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 04:16:06
Under GATT and WTO rules a government may have small "scale transfers of water" without it becoming a "good", but once you start "large-scale water transfers" it becomes a "good" - a commodity. It can only be to further this end then that this scheme is "BIG".

"Significantly, such English firms are limited in their home country to supplying water for customers using less than 50,000 litres a year. In Scotland, they can tender for a full range of services.

Others firms, both "big and small", will follow, according to Alan Sutherland, chief executive of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland (WICS)."

Once it becomes a commodity an open market is then considered to exist and corporations cannot then be denied access to that market. Climate change is likely to make water a scarce and valuable resource in many places. This will make water expensive and, as with oil, we will end up having to pay the "market rate".

Do not be fooled - this is a con job and not to be tolerated.

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/journals/gielr/toc_v15n2.html

http://www.afsc.org/newengland/nh/CAFTA-and-Water.pdf

http://dsp-psd.communication.gc.ca/Pilot/LoPBdP/BP/prb995-e.htm

http://www.awra.org/proceedings/dundee01/Documents/Matsuoka.pdf
22

The Master ™,,

04/03/2008 04:42:12
1
Nice one Ard Righ
23

The Master ™,,

04/03/2008 04:45:23
I just cant sleep tonight so i shall posy drivel until the soup kitchens open again.
I am high on poppers and feel extremely kookoo
24

Pilrig.,

Livingston 04/03/2008 06:09:41
8 - it is God's water even after the sheep pee in it !

15 - correction it is both a basic right and a service.
25

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 04/03/2008 06:14:54
Privatisation of water supply is the most dangerous idea yet. The water is owned by the people and must never be sold off to private interests. Is this why the water distribution infrastructure has been allowed to run down so that it is leaking like a sieve? Bottled water in Australia is dearer than petrol. A privatised system will ensure your reticulated water is to expensive to use for anything other than drinking. Go down to the river and do your washing on a rock. (For those who actually wash, I know some of those who post here don't). Industry will then be able to buy up all the water and you can buy their pollluted water at a discount rate. If you think this is far fetched, save this post and read it again in 10 years time.
26

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 04/03/2008 06:24:10
#13 do you think your water is going to come from a different source to Scottish Water and when you flush it is going to go to a different sewage treatment plant? Be real, it is the same infrastucture with a different marketing agent. The increased administration with no improvement in service MUST increase the cost of providing those services even if you get it at a reduced rate for the 1st 6 months. Make the govt bite the bullet & fix the existing infrastructure & tell the EU to bite their b#m.
27

livilion,

livingston 04/03/2008 06:42:22
Great, smashing, super, can't wait for my water meter to be installed.

I've always thought I don't pay nearly enough for my water.

A 'spokesman for the Scottish Government' last night refused to rule out such a move so it must be true, mustn't it?
28

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/03/2008 06:50:32
Independence will make no difference! Under EU rules foreign companies will still be able to own and run our assets.

Is ignorance/stupidity a necessary precondition of SNP support?

29

Greenheatman,

TAIN 04/03/2008 06:59:23
A few years ago I offered Scottish Water very cheap desalinated water from a renewable energy source - and was shown the door with "we do not do innovative thinking here, and besides, the politicians will not let us do so!"
30

ddmc,

04/03/2008 07:18:44
what was wrong with the 3 water companies created after council reorganisation in the 90's (north, east & west). Why did Labour create this massive white elephant ?
31

,

04/03/2008 07:24:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

Fabius Maximus,

04/03/2008 07:36:00
If there is no profit in it, what do shareholders get? The public subsidy still needed to make the private money pay?

For goodness sake, IT MATTERS who owns our Water, Gas and electricity. If the State is to unweildy and not able to delivery efficiency and local accountability, then we should look at a co-operative way of doing it, with all consumers owning one share, the local authorities, workers, and industry combined having say 55%. That way we could all participate, it would be a Quango, and water wouldn't be the latest on the list of things we really need which are owned by those whose principal aim is profit.

If there is profit to be made, let it be reinvested in Scottish water and its delivery. Not to banks, pension funds and small investors on the make.
33

AJM,

04/03/2008 07:41:37
#1 and #6 Get a grip on life, you are obsessed. Please repeat: SNP in power. Nothing to do with England, or the English. Or are the SNP an English party?
34

yockel,

04/03/2008 07:48:26
Outrageous. Stratigic assets need to remain inhouse. Wake up, profit for suits does not sit well with pupblic interest whichever centuary you are in.

If SW need shaken up then shake it up, fire half of them, divde the remainder and set them to compete against each other but do not sell the family silver, there is little enough of it left already.
35

,

04/03/2008 08:02:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
36

Huntlylad,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 08:04:24
What's wrong with you lot on these threads? Your food is manufactured and distributed by private companies, so is your drink, except water. Private organisations deliver best value, best sevice and best products. Water has needed to be brought out of State control for years. There is nothing the State is doing right now that can be considerd competent, effective or value for money, starting with Holyrood. Open your eyed to reality. Scotland will not succeed if Socialist dogma is going to be the way forward.
37

paulr,

edinburgh 04/03/2008 08:04:54
Once again our basic human needs are being turned into commercial properties, you cannot survive without water, it is a necessity for life.
We can now all look forward to paying dearly for this staple.
38

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2008 08:15:42
As I said at #17, I genuinely believe that this is a Unionist Alliance backdoor attempt at privatisation gone wrong.

I do not believe, for one minute, that an SNP Government would privatise water.
Water is an essential national interest.

If, however, this is a result of EU regulation, the sooner we have Independence and position ourselves like Norway, vis-a-vis the EU.
39

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/03/2008 08:17:15
#29 Greenheatman.

I hope you sold your idea to the Arabs!
40

Mcsnagpile,

04/03/2008 08:18:58
We nationalised the railways, the coal industry, even the National Health, because private industry failed, because free enterprise failed, because markets failed to be effective in the market place, because industry has a number of weaknesses –it does not see the big picture, it has no humanity. Profit and loss can never be the only criteria on deciding the needs of the people.
We try to put in political safe guards---but who trusts politicians, often the lackeys of the people we are trying to protect ourselves from. Example –need I gave any??

Why is it that certain people will keep pushing until we have had enough and we get out the pitchforks?
41

Ewan,

Middlewich 04/03/2008 08:21:24
Isn't it Glencorse reservoir....
42

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2008 08:24:33
#36, huntleylad.

It's not socialist dogma: it's common sense.

If there were no food manufactures humanity would survive: if the is no drinking water, it will perish.

A resource, that essential, must remain in the Common Good.
43

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/03/2008 08:38:05
#38 I love it. You simply can't accept that your beloved SNP would make a decision that you disagree with, so you declare that it must be a unionist plot. You people are astonishing. Deluded, naive daydreamers, but astonishing in the extent to which you will refuse to see any wrong done by your SNP heroes.

Here's a thought - maybe this is just another in a long line of bas decisions by the SNP.

Just a thought.
44

thinking,

Scotland 04/03/2008 08:45:16
#1
Why so quick to blame the English? From my reading this opening the water system up to other companies is a Scottish initiative. The Water Industry Commission for Scotland is Scottish I presume? Of course, English companies will apply, so will foreign ones I expect, the same as with other utilities.
The problem is not who runs it but that it is being run for the profit of shareholders. Having said that, although making a profit, they may be cheaper than State run industries which are notorious for overspending as they are never held accountable.
45

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2008 08:47:38
#43, Duncan.

Just a thought. How long do you think this process has been going on?
46

AJM,

04/03/2008 08:57:25
#38 #45 Frank I can understand that you wish to blame all ills on either the union or Labour, you choose. But just think for a second, the SNP could have kicked this into long grass, they have done that with the Borders train line, so why not with this? Answer they want money for one off give aways to make you feel that the SNP are great and Independence will be bring more give aways or they are Tartan Tories led by an economist.
47

ennerdale27,

sale cheshire 04/03/2008 09:09:48
THE PRIVATE SECTOR SHOULD AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED.
lOOK AT ENGLISH WATER COMPANIES, THE
POWER UTILITIES AND THE RAILWAYS.
fOR SOME REAL ENJOYMENT READ THE MEA CULPAE FROM MCKENZIE IN THE SCUM RE THAMES WATER.
THIS FATE SHALL BE YOURS IF YOU ALLOW YOURSELVES TO BE TAKEN IN.
48

Pomodora,

Gravesend 04/03/2008 09:11:40
Privatise your water supply and then leave the rrest of the wedge to be battered in and then goes any talk of Independence. When Coca Cola privatised Bolivia's water the people couldn't afford to buy it.Thank god that they had the balls to fight and the US monopoly was sent packing. Water is the heart of the nation, don't bleedit to death. You wont get Independence by sitting on your asses and bleatingin the Scotsman.
49

Ed_Izmir,

Turkey 04/03/2008 09:11:41
'The likeliest candidates are thought to be firms such as Thames Water.'

This would be the same Thames Water that caused a 100 million litre spillage of undiluted sewage into the Forth last year.

So they would be in the running because of their high quality and bench mark maintenance practices?

Little Scotland.


50

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2008 09:17:01
#46, AJM.

I do believe that this process was started by the Unionist Alliance to lead to Privatisation. However, I don't know how much, if any, EU regs. played a part.

I also know that no SNP Government will Privatise water. EU regs. or not. Can you say the same for the Unionist Parties?

I also think, as I wrote earlier, that this may be a very clever way of acquiring private finance to enhance the delivery of Scotland's Water, thus relieving the taxpayer of the burden whilst keeping water in the Common Good.
51

The Strategist,

04/03/2008 09:26:56
This is a plan that essentially reduces the number of Scottish Water's customers. That means less revenue which in turn means less investment.

Scotland is a nation of a mere 6m souls. How many times can you cut that small a size of cake.

This idea was obviously thought up by someone with an MBA and close connections to the financial services world.
52

AJM,

04/03/2008 09:27:01
#50 Frank Unfortunately for some they seem to continuing the process of privatisation. I think you are trying too hard to think of the silver lining if you believe that it should not be privatised. Companies involved in water delivery is start of privatisation. The point is they think that they can run it for profit, it probably is already profitable, so what part is the taxpayer being relieved of a burden.
53

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/03/2008 09:30:38
#50 So essentially your position is: if this is an SNP-supported change, then you think it's good; if it's a unionist-supported change, then you think it's bad.

Grow a spine.
54

Fabius Maximus,

04/03/2008 09:34:07
#32 I meant of course, it would NOT be a quango. None of the existing Water arrangements has worked. Welsh Water is supposed to be a mutual, but is in fact just another combine of interest groups, without the input of those with the biggest interest of all, the domestic consumer. The English privatised companies are a disgrace, still wasting, still not investing properlay, and divorced entirely form any democratic accountability. And yes, Scottish Water needs to be able to borrow money in order to be able to invest in its infrastructure and future. But that cannot, and must not, mean that it should be owned by companies, groups and individuals who sell water for profit. It should belong to the people, and I have outlined one possible Co-operative or mutual way of doing this at my earlier post.

Come on, what does anybody elese suggest, or are we again falling into the British - and I mean British - disease of opposing every option proposed, but not having the vision to come up with a solution which we migh be able to modify til it worked?
55

Highland Mighty,

04/03/2008 09:43:29
I'm surprised we haven't heard anything from Ard Righ on this.

53. The nats have no ability to think for themselves. Salmond is their day, their night, their light and their dark. He is their life, their soul and their greatest love. He is true perfection. Didn't you know that?

I'm surprised that they even tolerate people publishing photos of him.
56

SC,

Dundee 04/03/2008 09:51:28
40 Mcsnagpile,04/03/2008 08:18:58

You say you can't trust politicians to regulate private companies, yet call for nationalisation! Who do you think runs nationalised industries? You guessed it, politicians!

Private companies are under much greater public scrutiny than nationalised industries and politicians. They face a general election everyday, not every five years, as customer choose where to take their hard earned cash.

Some thinking please.

Good on the SNP for not trying to block this proposal. Even if Scottish Water remains in State-ownership, then it should still have to compete with private companies. We'll see who is best then and can make an informed, non-ideological, decision.
57

fiferjohn,

04/03/2008 09:54:23
under no circumstances should Scottish water be privatised.
it is a essential service and somthing people need to live .
also in the future with climate change it is the one thing scotland will have lots of is water and if it belongs to the scottish goverment it will make more money than the oil as we can charge every other counrty what we like for it.
privatise it and in the long run scotland will lose out just as we lost out on the oil form our counrty.
58

union member,

Glasgow 04/03/2008 09:54:44
Frank and AJM. can i suggest you come out of your respective bunkers for a minute. What last week showed was that the members and backbenchers in both the SNP and the Labour Party are clearly opposed to water privatisation. It also showed that there are (senior) siren voices in both parties that wouldn't mind slipping this through if they think they can get away with it. And with the Tories and LibDems supporting privatisation (mutualisation) it only needs one of them to change. Those of us opposed to this need to ensure that we stiffen the spine of the privatising fellow travellers in both parties.
59

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 04/03/2008 10:06:38
In a month where power companies are boasting profits up 500% yes it sounds like a great idea to allow our own water to be sold back to us by English based companies, this is about as mad as a box of frogs and is potentially worse than the North Sea Oil and Gas rip of and they think the people of Scotland are going to be happy with door to door salesmen "Hello madam I'm from Thames water I want to sell you your own water" take a fcuk and go throw yourself of the Forth Road Bridge you bunch of total muppets.

This is an unbeleivable act, I cannot beleive that the Scottish Government are going along with this, this is totally illogical. Come that day laddie you can come and cut me of from the water main nae I will bl**dy dig it up myself,put and axe through it and stick a cork in the pipe, I will then go out and get myself some charcoal and a load of old baths and start collecting my own bloody supply free from the sky as for the sewage I beleive the French call "Gardeleu" when they throw it out the window into the street.
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/03/2008 10:09:21
#59 Another one managing to find an anti-English angle to this. Do you have no capacity for any other train of thought? Is every problem one of English making?

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

Quite, quite bizarre.
61

frank mcbride,

lusitania 04/03/2008 10:11:20
#58, union member.

I hope what you are saying, is support those MSPs who are oppsed to privatisation.

#53, Duncan.

Why have you chosen to post insults rather than try to make your case?

#52, AJM.

Hopefully, the current £180m subsidy.
62

 Ayrshire Scot™,

04/03/2008 10:45:10
53, Duncan

given that this deregulation wsa announed in 2006, why are you and others blaming the SNP for this?
63

The Strategist,

04/03/2008 10:55:03
#56

Why should Scottish Water have to compete with privatised companies? You may take this as a given but I'm afraid I don't. What's the logic?
64

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 10:55:58
60
Duncan in Edinburgh,
04/03/2008 10:09:21

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

Highly skilled use of a hammer results in a roof over you head. When you need to reach for a saw you grab a saw.
65

 Ayrshire Scot™,

04/03/2008 10:56:25
33,43, etc AJM, Duncan

given that this deregulation was set out in a Bill passed in 2005 by the Labour/ Lib Dem administration, I am still unclear why you are attacking the SNP?
---------------------------------------
Water Services ( Scotland) Bill - published 2004, passed 2005

The main provisions of the Bill are:
to replace the Water Industry Commissioner with a body corporate, the Scottish Water Commission;

.........................

to establish a licensing regime for retail competition for non-household premises only ie, the new entrant to the market will offer billing and other customer services in competition with the incumbent. This regime will be managed by the Water Industry Commission................

66

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 11:00:44
28
Rulesbutnotrulers,

"Independence will make no difference!"

Is ignorance/stupidity a necessary precondition of unionist ideology?

Independence from the UK EU and USA is my stance, as well you know and this stance would yield the control necessary for the zen management of our wealth of resources.

Its called a change for the better independence.

67

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 11:03:13
31
Scott Webb....,
04/03/2008 07:24:10
This is whats called....The Reach Around.....WAKE UP :)

Please expand that one.
68

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 04/03/2008 11:05:19
48
Quite.
69

AlecJ,

Aberdeen 04/03/2008 11:07:34
Yet another raving stupidity from Big Government (regardless of Party). The basic structures were put in by local councils paid out of rates/Poll Tax/Council Tax and taken away from them by Big Government. I hope no one imagines that if he changes "supplier" he will then see a big water tanker parked outside his house with a pipe going in because the "water comes from England"! Yes, most of the original structure has deteriorated due to passage of time and needs to be replaced - and paid for. But giving this to big companies owned mostly by foreigners is not the way to do it.
I remember reading in "Mother Jones" (www.motherjones.com) of the experience in South Africa, how even the townships under apartheid had reasonable water supplies; later on they were privatised, water was withdrawn because the peoples of the townships could not afford to pay the bills, result misery.
Please return the water system back to local (regional) control. You would get far more benefit if the suppliers are affected by their own actions.
70

subrosa,

04/03/2008 11:08:17
I've just emailed my MSP and MP. Not a cheep about this was mentioned the other week. When was this idea debated?
71

SC,

Dundee 04/03/2008 11:08:58
63 The Strategist,04/03/2008 10:55:03
#56

"Why should Scottish Water have to compete with privatised companies? You may take this as a given but I'm afraid I don't. What's the logic? "

It will encourage them to be more efficient and stop us having to subsidise them. We can then spend that money on something more useful - like tax cuts, or a kiddie hospital. Take your pick.

Surely as a strategist you know this. Or are you a Labour strategist? Public sector workers tend to vote Labour (who keep things sweet for them), so Labour are always intent on increasing the public sector population (and dependency in general). If that is your strategy, I salute you.

72

SC,

Dundee 04/03/2008 11:09:13
63 The Strategist,04/03/2008 10:55:03
#56

"Why should Scottish Water have to compete with privatised companies? You may take this as a given but I'm afraid I don't. What's the logic? "

It will encourage them to be more efficient and stop us having to subsidise them. We can then spend that money on something more useful - like tax cuts, or a kiddie hospital. Take your pick.

Surely as a strategist you know this. Or are you a Labour strategist? Public sector workers tend to vote Labour (who keep things sweet for them), so Labour are always intent on increasing the public sector population (and dependency in general). If that is your strategy, I salute you.

73

SC,

Dundee 04/03/2008 11:09:34
63 The Strategist,04/03/2008 10:55:03
#56

"Why should Scottish Water have to compete with privatised companies? You may take this as a given but I'm afraid I don't. What's the logic? "

It will encourage them to be more efficient and stop us having to subsidise them. We can then spend that money on something more useful - like tax cuts, or a kiddie hospital. Take your pick.

Surely as a strategist you know this. Or are you a Labour strategist? Public sector workers tend to vote Labour (who keep things sweet for them), so Labour are always intent on increasing the public sector population (and dependency in general). If that is your strategy, I salute you.

74

bruce borland,

oshawa 04/03/2008 11:24:49
Migod, don't let the fools do it...privatization of utilities has tripled our bills here, not water yet but gas, electric and phone...oh, all the big lobbyist promises and stories about over charging will become your nightmare...does Britrail come to mind and how many can afford a train to London without signing in blood 10 years in advance...no, rethink this one...
75

,

04/03/2008 11:28:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/03/2008 11:35:16
#66 Ardrigh.

I too am a dreamer and schemer, but within the world of possibility only!
77

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 11:37:31
It is twenty to 12.

Its Side show bob

So it must be show time.

I walk into Farmfoods and i see an apple strudel and then just sink my teeth into it.
3 days later i receive the dental bill.
78

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/03/2008 11:46:59
#61 I made a very clear point, which is obviously so uncomfortable for you you prefer to hide behind "you're insulting me" complaints. Why not address that point.

The SNP have been in government for nearly a year. They have been happy to change all manner of policies set out by the previous administration. They have cancelled huge projects, and put in place huge other ones.

It may be uncomfortable for you to accept, but the SNP has clearly decided not to make any change to this process. That is an SNP decision. Another bad one, in my view.
79

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 11:48:51
What is the best way forward for Scottish water?
If the company is privatised does that not save the tax payers around 75 million a year? or if it goes mutual that means the company can borrow from banks etc and will not be a burden on the tax payer and borrow from the Scottish Gov?!! some water for thought but what ever happens to the company it has to plug them leaks.

It may be Scotlands water, but it needs to be managed properly regardles of who runs the company.
80

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 11:50:57
Sorry is it £180 million subsidy the company receives? this money could be diverted into other areas if the company was privatised would it not?
81

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 11:53:15
frank mcbride all posts........whirring like a dervish..........Oh dear are the snp just another party following the capitalist road.......No Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, among them frank...Straw in the water this issue see which way the snp flow then we will see what kind of 'Construct' the snp follow.






#42 Franky the idealist
"If there were no food manufactures humanity would survive: if the is no drinking water, it will perish.

A resource, that essential, must remain in the Common Good."

p.s Frank you are right in what you say......I think you are going to be disappointed over the next few years....

snp and £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££
82

Miss H,

04/03/2008 12:04:59
This is really nothing to do with the ownership of Scottish Water which remains publicly owned. It seems as though it is about allowing other companies to compete for business customers.

I don't really get parts of this story because Scottish Water Business Stream has existed as the commercial arm of Scottish Water for quite some time. The key problem - which the story does refer to - is that the commercial side has been over charging business users in order to subsidise household users. At least that is what is widely believed.

This is something that my partner goes completely mental about. He has a small business which is charged according to the rateable value of the premises, despite the fact that it is basically a machine shop - they have one tap and one loo and that's all the water they use. They do have a meter installed but the meter is not read. Why I don't know but they have been told that they will have to continue to pay unmeasured charges for the next year at least - even though there is a water meter installed which could give an accurate measurement of use if switched on. I suspect that if that experience is typical there will be some interest from business users in alternative providers.

83

Boggle fey the Bog,

04/03/2008 12:09:03
#75 WynnKerr Glasgow,
Do you honestly think that Tory Bliar and Gordo Braun, would go against the WTO (Better know as Corporate USA Inc.), the only answer is Independence for Scotland and an Alliance of the 'Small Nations' on the periphery of Europe, those nations are probably the most resource rich Nations in what is regarded as 'Europe'.
The EU,US and Russian Federation are all our enemies. They are only working toward dominating smaller nations.

As for 'competition' in the water supply area, bit of a misnomer, where are these companies going to get their water, England? France? no from Scottish Water!!

But will Scottish Water be able to charge them the 'going rate'?

I doubt it.

I point you in the direction of the Post Office, where Royal Mail can only charge TNT, DHL et al, 13p per letter, when the 'going rate' is 24p for 2nd class and 34p for 1st class.

So it will be a case of the public subsidising 'Private Enterprise' yet again!!!, with Herr Braun's cronies lining their pockets at our expense, once again!!!!

WTO OUT!!
EU OUT!!!
Nu Labour/Owld Torie OUT!!!

Northern Alliance of Europe IN!!!

Lest we Forget!!!

It is TIME!!!
84

Miss H,

04/03/2008 12:11:25
78 Duncan. Is regulation of markets devolved then?

When did that happen?
85

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 04/03/2008 12:12:05
#61 wrote:
"Why have you chosen to post insults rather than try to make your case?"

Duncan replied:
"I made a very clear point, which is obviously so uncomfortable for you you prefer to hide behind "you're insulting me" complaints."

Errr.. Duncan,
Calling people "Deluded, naive daydreamers," and telling them to "grow a spine" is more about posting to be insulting rather than making 'clear points'.

You might think posting in an insulting manner because you happen to disagree with what others are saying is somehow 'clever', but it isn't really.
86

AJM,

04/03/2008 12:12:22
#65 AS are you saying that there is nothing the SNP can have done in the last year.

#82 Miss H, it seemed to me that the list of organisations that might change were larger units which use a lot of water, I am afraid that there is no money in it for a company for a useage the likes of your partners.
87

Miss H,

04/03/2008 12:15:33
86 Yes I suspect that is the case. I suspect that is why they are taking so long to meter small businesses, because they know that they will end up paying less, not more, once they are paying measured charges.
88

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/03/2008 12:17:47
#85 I consider myself duly admonished. But why are you and others focused on whether or not something was insulting, when the central point of what I said is being ignored? Frank? Ayrshire?

There are people posting here who essentially maintain the stance that the value of something depends on who has done it, not what is being done. Frank is a case in point. He basically said that if the SNP has made this decisions then it is a good one, but if Labour has made it it is a bad one.

That is the issue I am trying to illustrate. It is hypocrisy. Do you have any view on that?
89

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 12:21:05
#82 Miss H

What no bath....Phew...Pity the girl who gets close to him
90

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 12:23:52
#89 Nikostratos

Shut up or i will set my kimba moniker on you or if you realy upset me then i will log on as The Master.!
91

AJM,

04/03/2008 12:25:41
#88 Duncan add to that privatisation might be ok as long as no English company gets its hands on supply ok for anyone else.
It is as if they believe that independence will give Scotland the geological ability to float around western europe, tagging onto Ireland one month then Scandinavia the next all the time seeing England slowly disappear over the horizon.
92

Miss H,

04/03/2008 12:28:01
88 Duncan Frank said that he did not believe for one minute that the SNP would privatise Scottish Water and he was dead right. The SNP has not and will not privatise Scottish Water.

So what was your point?

93

Miss H,

04/03/2008 12:28:35
91 What are you going on about?
94

David MacVicar,

web 04/03/2008 12:37:20
Complete madness!

What happens when pipes burst and your service provider has no responsibility for the infrastructure that is run by another company. Lets see, I pick up the phone and call someone in an office in Berkshire and hope for the best? NO CHANCE.

I can also forsee prices rising where each year different utilities offer the "Bestest" deal on a rotating deal. Followed several years later with a certain investigation into a price fixing scandal.

Also the private companies will reduce maintainance etc to show a reduction of costs and keep spare parts etc in some central warehouse in the middle of England. Anytime something brakes it would take about 2 days for parts to get where they are needed. The cost cutting will make the service ripe for a buy out from some foreign company, passing the profit to Directors and shareholders etc etc.

We have seen this all before.

What are the motivations of Alan Sutherland and Co. What is in his bonus plan, will he make Zero pounds and zero pence or is there (as is certain)a confict of financial interest?

I have not seen any business plan showing a clear guaranteed benefit to the public and businesses.
A guarantee to 2010? Hilarious.

"Competition in the Scottish water industry will help ensure that customers see further significant improvements in value for money." Prove it you disingenuous B. Will any reduction in quality of service or increase in costs be paid out of your salary?

Scottish Water has been run badly and Water needs to be run much better but privatisation of this resource is lunacy.

95

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 12:37:32
#90 Side show bob

With that fearsome threat ringing in my ears I'm off for the day

Sideshow Bob:" You want the truth! You can't handle the truth! No truth handler you! Bah! I deride your truth handling abilities!"


LAWYER: "Robert, if you were released, would you pose any threat to one Bart Simpson?"
SIDESHOW BOB: "Bart Simpson? The spirited little scamp who twice foiled my evil schemes and sent me to this dank, urine-soaked hell-hole?"
PAROLE PANEL: "We object to the term 'urine-soaked hell-hole' when you could have said, 'pee-pee soaked heck-hole'."
SIDESHOW BOB: "Cheerfully withdrawn!"

PAROLE PANEL LADY: "What about that tatoo on your chest, doesn't it say 'Die Bart, die'?"
SIDESHOW BOB: "No, that's German for, 'The Bart, the.'"
PAROLE PANEL LADY: "Oh! No one who speaks German could be an evil man!"

96

fiferjohn,

04/03/2008 12:38:29
the reason the government is trying to privatise Scottish water is so England will always have water.
just look at the last few years in England they have had droughts and had to pay for water if they get in to Scotland they can take all the water they want and Scotland loses out on revenue it is as simple as that.
water is going to become more precious than oil in the future and we control that westminister knows that and is trying to change it .
97

Nikostratos,

last post today 04/03/2008 12:47:08
All day I've faced the barren Scottish waste,
Without the taste of water:
Cool water. (Water.)
Old Alex and I, with throats burned dry,
An' souls that cry for water: (Water.)
Cool, (Water.)
Clear, (Water.)
Water. (Water.)

Keep a-movin,Alex ,
Don't you listen to him, Alex,
He's the devil, not a man:
Spreads the burning sand with water. (Water.)
Alex, can you see that big, green tree, (Water.)
Where the water's runnin' free? (Water.)
It's waitin' there for me and you? (Water.)

The nights are cool, I'm a fool.
Each star's a pool of water.
Cool water. (Water.)
But with the dawn I'll wake and yawn,
And carry on to water. (Water.)
Water, (Water.)
Water, (Water.)
Water, (Water.)

Keep a-movin, Alex,
Don't you listen to
Alan Sutherland, ,
He's the devil, not a man:
Spreads the burning sand with water. (Water.)
Alex, can you see that big, green tree, (Water.)
Where the water's runnin' free? (Water.)
Waitin' there for me and you?

Cool, (Water.)
Clear, (Water.)
Water. (Water.)

Cool, (Water.)
Clear, (Water.)
Water. (Cool, clear, water.)
98

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 12:51:14
Nikostratos,04/03/2008 12:37:32
#90 Side show bob

With that fearsome threat ringing in my ears I'm off for the day

Sideshow Bob:" You want the truth! You can't handle the truth! No truth handler you! Bah! I deride your truth handling abilities!"


LAWYER: "Robert, if you were released, would you pose any threat to one Bart Simpson?"
SIDESHOW BOB: "Bart Simpson? The spirited little scamp who twice foiled my evil schemes and sent me to this dank, urine-soaked hell-hole?"
PAROLE PANEL: "We object to the term 'urine-soaked hell-hole' when you could have said, 'pee-pee soaked heck-hole'."
SIDESHOW BOB: "Cheerfully withdrawn!"

PAROLE PANEL LADY: "What about that tatoo on your chest, doesn't it say 'Die Bart, die'?"
SIDESHOW BOB: "No, that's German for, 'The Bart, the.'"
PAROLE PANEL LADY: "Oh! No one who speaks German could be an evil man!"

Thank's, you have summed me up to a tea.
99

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 13:02:12
100
100

`Side show bob,

04/03/2008 13:03:41
okay now that i got the 100 im of for some lunch and will spend my Farmfoods tokens.
101

AJM,

04/03/2008 13:05:02
Miss H #1 #6 #16 #59 #96 #69 Those that see this as (a), it is some sort of English conspiracy and (b), that an English company is a foreign company and that any one else is preferable.
102

fiferjohn,

04/03/2008 13:18:06
ajm - no company should be allowed to buy it. it should stay where it is as in the future it will make a lot of money for the scotland and it shuld be invested in scotland and no where else.
103

AJM,

04/03/2008 13:47:56
#103 Fiferjohn I tend to agree but I do have reservations as nationilised industries are not as lean as the could be. If some way could be found to make them more efficient and raise capital without political interference then I would be for it. That goes for the Post Office as well. It is not these companies have to make a profit they also have to pay shareholders. Plus it seems to me that over again these companies trim the workforce and they pay the directors a nice fat bonus. Then the business is sold again.
104

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 13:52:05
Em, how will Scottish Water pay for infrustructure upgrades if a chunk of its revenue is taken away and given to English companies?!!!!
105

Miss H,

04/03/2008 13:54:43
102 I wouldn't be keen on any foreign companies getting their hands on what is a public asset, be they English, Irish or Scandinavian. I think you will find about 99% of people would agree. However since the Scottish Government is not going to sell off Scottish Water to any foreign company it is not an issue is it?



106

Miss H,

04/03/2008 14:01:21
105 This is the way it is set out on the Water Commission website:

How the market works
The Water Services etc (Scotland) Act 2005 established a framework for competition. It required the separation of Scottish Water’s wholesale services from its retail function. It also allowed new licensed suppliers to compete in a retail market for business customers.






Who's who in the market

WICS are responsible for implementing this framework. We are also the licensing authority for the market. In order to compete in the market, suppliers must be awarded licences by us.

Customers are the focus of the market. There are over 130,000 business customers in Scotland (all customers who are not households) eligible to choose their supplier.

Suppliers (licensed providers) are able to compete for the custom of all business customers in Scotland. Suppliers buy services at wholesale from Scottish Water.

Scottish Water operates Scotland’s publicly owned network of pipes, mains, and treatment works. It acts as the wholesaler in the market, selling water and sewerage services to suppliers.

The Central Market Agency ensures the market functions in a simple and efficient way. The CMA facilitates the transfer of customer information between suppliers. It also calculates the money owned by each supplier to Scottish Water for wholesale services.

http://www.watercommissioner.co.uk/view_Whos_who_in_the_market.aspx

I don't see it as actually being quite the revolutionary change it is being marketed as by the Scotsman actually.

107

The Strategist,

04/03/2008 14:07:40
#73

Wrong assumption. As with the unbundling of the so called local loop a bunch of johnny come lately telecomms and internet providers took advantage by offering cheaper calls/internet access.

This has led to the UK now having some of the slowest broadband access in Europe because whilst taking away BT's revenue these johnny come latelies weren't actually prepared to invest in infrastructure. So we're now loosing a once competitive advantage on the back of so called competition.

The same will happen with Scottish water. From a strategic standpoint it's utterly ridiculous.

108

Joanna,

Cambs, England 04/03/2008 14:21:01
"just look at the last few years in England they have had droughts"


I wish I'd known where the drought was in England last year - I could have spent the summer there instead. Must be a different England to the one I live in that the poster is on about.

Still - it gives some of you something to moan about - heavens to betsy the English are moving in! Wonder what will set the paranoid ones off tomorrow.
109

AJM,

04/03/2008 14:31:16
#106 Miss H last time I looked and for the foreseeable future is part of the UK no UK company is foreign within the UK. Although your party is full of little Scotlanders not many are proposing to get out of Europe and therefore no company in Europe is effectively foreign. You cannot have your cake and eat it, if you are in Europe it comes with the territory.
110

,

04/03/2008 14:56:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
111

The Master,

04/03/2008 15:20:11
Water privatisation for domestic customers was fiercely resisted in Scotland, leading to gross underinvestment in the infrastructure as compared to England. However, I doubt if the deregulation of water for commercial users will prove anything like as controversial: much needed competition is the only way forward for this leviathan of state control and this is a sensible compromise which has apparently attracted cross party support, because the SNP have made no move to reverse the policy.
112

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 15:20:34
This issue is far too important to use as a vehicle to insult each other. For me, this is a red line issue - don't care who does it - they will have my everlasting enmity. Can I point out once more that once we start selling water in bulk we have under EU, GATT, and WTO rules made it a commodity and must allow free market forces to prevail.

What this is about is future bulk water exports to places that are going to see shortages in the near future. Once that happens we can't unilaterally stop exports and will have to pay the going market rate for our own water.. What will water cost in a southern England or France suffering a drought? That's what we will have to pay - just like with oil - the market rate.

This is a disgusting exercise of theft on a grand scale. These folks - McMillan and Sutherland ... are waxing lyrical not because it's a great deal for the consumer but because of all the profits they see for their corp[orate buddies in the near future.

113

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 04/03/2008 15:21:32
Keep the sassenachs awa frae oor Aqua. They will destroy whats left of our shabby economy and start mismanaging the very stuff which makes Scotland unique in the world. Scottish water is run by halfwits and amateur charlatans but better the devil you know is what I say when it comes to such an important commodity.
114

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 15:33:06
Banana Heid - the point is to stop it becoming a commodity.
115

The Strategist,

04/03/2008 15:33:59
#112

Wasn't it Thames Water that despite making large profits was heavily criticised for failing to invest in their infrastructure?

The argument that public ownership is bad and private is good doesn't always wash I'm afraid. In the UK in particular actually providing a decent service tends to take second place behind returns to shareholders and management bonuses.
116

Ayrshire Scot™,

04/03/2008 15:38:42
Did McCrone have anything to say about water in his report? Its oor water just as much as oor oil! I can’t believe Alex is behind this, it must be all down to the previous unionist quislings.
117

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 15:46:51
This can't be allowed to go forward. Everyone who opposes this should email anyone and everyone with influence - and those who don't. This is a national tragedy in the making.
118

Banana Heid,

ayrshire 04/03/2008 15:53:05
115 OK Wrong choice of words. Hair splitter!
119

,

04/03/2008 15:55:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
120

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 15:59:15
I am incensed - I am livid - I am outraged. How dare they do this. How dare they think we are stupid enough to believe privatising our water is a good idea. This goes beyond party. This speaks to sovereignty.
121

subrosa,

04/03/2008 16:06:11
# 121

I've emailed my MP and MSP for an explanation. Have you?
122

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 16:07:42
122 - yes.
123

 Ayrshire Scot™,

04/03/2008 16:08:01
117. awright there fakey? yawn
124

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 16:11:22
122 - This has been presented as a fait accomplice - a done deal. This is sleaze of the highest order and if true the SNP can't escape culpability as it was completed under their watch. This will see members leave the party - me for one.
125

The Maste­r­,

04/03/2008 16:12:05
why should u scots get off scot free paying for your water when the rest of us have to,this is why we need an english parliament,wed have cheap water like u if we did,why shouldnt you buy from companies in england?
126

Miss H,

04/03/2008 16:14:06
110 You are conflating two sepatate issues here - ownership of water and competition.

Can you name me one single country in Europe whose water is owned by another country?
127

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 16:14:17
126 - Meths - under GATT, WTO, and EU rules it is.
128

The Master,

04/03/2008 16:40:20
#127: go flush yourself away with the soon to be semi privatised water, fakey! Bet you'd float!
129

The Master ™,,

04/03/2008 16:45:33
Oh now dear chaps, where have i put kimba?
130

The Master ™,,

04/03/2008 16:46:21
130

Hey you are a fake, hoi hoi hoi
131

The Maste­r­,

04/03/2008 16:46:57
130. Very clever fakey! 131, Farmfood probably
132

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 04/03/2008 16:49:44
Direct complaints here.

http://www.watercommissioner.co.uk/view_Complaints.aspx

Seems to me this is a bit like the privatisation of British Telecom, which still retains control of the market by dint of owning the cables, poles, exchanges etcetera.

I have this horrible image of The Central Market Agency stopping your water for six working days whilst they switch water provider, then not providing you with a code when you want to switch user a year down the line...

It'll be interesting to see how Scottish business copes with this changeover.
133

The Master ™,,

04/03/2008 16:51:18
Farmfoods farmfoods farmfoods, what has this to do with the debate?

Hoos poos? club des hoos poos is it?
134

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 04/03/2008 16:52:28
Wotcher Meths, nail on the head.
135

The Master ™,,

04/03/2008 16:53:18
Hey hey hey am gona go to sunshine
hey hey hey am gona go to malta
hey hey hey am a sexy boy
hey hey hey am a kimba man
136

The Maste­r­,

04/03/2008 16:56:11
137. Nothing. But Waitrose has everything to with it
137

Resolutions,

04/03/2008 16:56:11
This article sent me to check the calendar FAST! It does not seem to be 1st April!

Is this Hootsman stirring?
138

The Dark side™,

04/03/2008 16:56:20
I just see a thread and then i go "GRRRRR" and sink my teeth into it.
139

The Dark side™,

04/03/2008 16:57:20
Good lord my monikers are running riot, help i can not control my monikers.
140

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 04/03/2008 16:58:22
Kimba's anthem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8&feature=related
141

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 16:59:09
#144 Oscar

You called??
142

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:00:20
#143

The Master says thay yooooooos urs to get back in before it gets dark GOT IT SHUT IT
143

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:01:59
I AM THE MASTER BYS THIS WAYS AND ACT SILY SO YOU LOT DONT THINK I AM THE MASTER. I FOOLED YOU ALL HA HA HA AND IM NOT FROM ENGULAND AM FROM ICELAND SO HA
144

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:02:49
OH SILLY KIMBA ICELAND=FARMFOODS=FROZEN
145

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 04/03/2008 17:02:50
Hello fakey Kimba, you seem a reasonable sort of chap. How fares the day?
146

The Maste­r­,

04/03/2008 17:04:08
I AM THE MASTER BYS THIS WAYS AND ACT SILY SO YOU LOT DONT THINK I AM THE MASTER. I FOOLED YOU ALL HA HA HA AND IM NOT FROM ENGULAND AM FROM ICELAND SO HA
147

Canadian Scot,

Kincardine Ontario 04/03/2008 17:05:46
Now please explain this to me. Same water, same reservoirs, same pumping stations, same pipes but different "supplier". Lets us all forget this anti English reatoric and focus on the facts. It doesn't matter what nationality the "suppliers" is it is the fact that the water becomes "owned " by a private company but the maintenance of the system will still fall on the "unreliable" Scottish Water! What changes? other than the profits leaving Scotland.
148

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:06:17
149 OSCARMACPHIL

I KNOWS AM THE FAKE KIMBA BUT DONT TELL ANYONE, IS IT BECOSE I AM MORE INTELIGENT THAN THE REEL KIMBA THUT YOU NOTICED I WAS THE FAKE. COUNCIL HOUSE=DOOR=NEED OF PAINT
149

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:07:55
I LIKE THIS MONIKER AND HAVE JUST SUNK MA YELLOW TEETH INTO IT.
150

Miss H,

04/03/2008 17:09:17
151 The water isn't owned by anyone other than Scottish Water.
151

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:09:25
S IS FOR SUGER
T IS FOR TOILET
M IS FOR MINCE

THAT IS WHAT I GOT TOUGHT TODAY AT SILLY FARM=IQ=-23
152

Kimba™,

04/03/2008 17:10:45
Miss H,04/03/2008 17:09:17
151 The water isn't owned by anyone other than Scottish Water


THE MASTER SAYS ENGULAND WILL OWN THE WATER IN HIS BLADER AND IS THIS TRUE
153

The Master,

04/03/2008 17:15:35
#150 Fakey: why don’t you revert to tormening poor old Ayrshire? He’s a veritable institution on the threads, whereas I only post occasionally!
154

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 04/03/2008 17:15:36
#152 Spooky old bean, positively spooky.
155

The Maste­r­,

04/03/2008 17:17:36
150. Well I only post occassionally as the Master!!!
156

The Maste­r­,

04/03/2008 17:18:52
I post alot as Kimba though!! She is a great member of the Stirrer team, and creates more havoc than her prototype, the unlamented AntiFascist! Mind you, competition is hot for lead poster role in the Stirrer team!
157

An Beal Bacht,

04/03/2008 17:36:18
154 - Miss H, 04/03/2008 17:09:17

The door has been opened.
158

Mallard,

Borders 04/03/2008 18:10:23
Scvottish Water will still be providing and maintaining the system so what are the competitors actually doing? This is political nonsense. Out-sourcing the finance and other ancillary departments of SW would cut costs for all customers.

Martyn McLaughlin needs to improve his research - Cruachan has nothing to do with water supply, it is a hydro electric station.
159

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 04/03/2008 18:15:42
Here's the headline for tomorrow


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7277886.stm
160

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 19:14:29
Good bye Ian paisley First Minister
Good bye Rhodri Morgan First minister
Good bye Alex Salmond First minister(all in good time)

Well his team of first Minister's didn't last long did it

Goodbye-ee, goodbye-ee,
Wipe the tear, baby dear, from your eye-ee,
Tho' it's hard to part I know,
I'll be tickled to death to go.
Don't cry-ee, dont sigh-ee,
there's a silver lining in the sky-ee,
Bonsoir, old thing, cheer-i-o, chin, chin,
Nah-poo, toodle-oo, Goodbye-ee.

161

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 19:29:34
#175 niko

That's a good one should have waited for the story tomorrow and posted it then...more fun..eh
162

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 19:30:48
#176 niko

Good idea me...Tell you what I'll save it and post it again anyway...even more fun...Bye me
163

Fabius Maximus,

04/03/2008 19:37:21
I'm a strong supporter of Co-ops and mutuals in general, and I think that Quangos like Scottish Water would be better with a CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE SYSTEM. bUT THE wELSH MODEL DOES NOT DELIVER THE KIND OF DEMOCRATIC OWNERSHIP AND ACCOUNTABILITY sorry, hit the caps key - which is the hallmark of a proper co-operative.I agree with An Beal Bacht that this is much too important to play party politics with. Having established a Scottish Co-operative Development Agency, why don't we now task it with devising Scttish models for former Quangos which would keep the resources in public ownership, strengthen governance and accountability, and allow the Co-operatives to borrow money to invest in our services.
164

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 19:42:46
#178

about as inspiring your namesake.....Delayer( Cunctator ) Oeer looks a bit rude in latin
165

barbour,

northumberland 04/03/2008 19:44:37
The company that will aquire the commercial customers supply contracts will be Vieolia Water,once called Thames Water and now a German company.
The result will be the reduction of revenue to the SW domestic kitty which can only be replaced by raising the public sector water charges.The maintenance of the "plant" will be outsourced as will the commercial arm of the business with the obvious reduction in labour overhead.
The domestic water charge has been estimated to raise by at least 10% year on year until 2020.
Once the initial purchase monies paid to the exectutive has been assimulated into the exchequer and "spread about"the financial loser will be the domestic consumer,just look at the water companies performance in England where this exercise took place some years ago.
Short term gain,long term pain for the domestic consumers,the reverse for business users.
166

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 20:22:45
#180 Boring

One Big Enormous Extra Gynormous Mega-F#cking....Yawn to you....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
167

barbour,

northumberland 04/03/2008 20:46:40
#181
You are indeed a complete and utter waste of space.
I was always taught that if people supected that one was stupid,don't open ones mouth and confirm their suspicions.
In your case not the mouth but the keys,if you can't use the English language without resorting to the uncouth,then just don't bother please.
168

grannie,

Glasgow 04/03/2008 21:25:49
If they could sell off the air we breathe I'm sure they'd try it. Railways, Gas, Electric and now water. When Railways were publicy owned. The Thacher Government would not invest money to bring them up to date. They were sold off and now government money is paid to private companies in subsides. Gas is piped through the same pipes to all consumers yet we are all paying different prices same goes for electricity and now it seems the same is to happen to water. Nothing that has been privatised has provided any benefit to the consumer. The main interest in private companies is PROFIT.LEAVE OUR WATER ALONE1!!!!!! aT LEAST WHEN THESE COMMODITIES WERE PUBLIC tHE GOVERNMENT COULD FORCE SOME FORM OF PRICE CONTROL. thEY NO LONGER SEEM ABLE TO DO THIS
169

Nikostratos,

04/03/2008 21:52:59
#181 barber

Well...Uncouth..Oh yeah from somone who quotes Dennis Thatcher.......

Dear bill

That fellow Nikostratos is so 'Uncouth' do believe we will have to blackball him from the Golf Club.
Just off for a snortorino.
170

barbour,

northumberland 04/03/2008 21:57:40
#183
Well said sir.
Please learn by the "English" water companies headlong rush into privatisation,the consumer was the loser with the shareholders being the only winners.
The time scale to implement this exercise is I believe to commence 2010,but when I read some of the earlier posts eg 181 showing total ignorance or at least total apathy,then I'm afraid Scotland will get what it deserves by default.
171

barbour,

northumberland 04/03/2008 22:02:29
#184
you are only reinforcing my point,if ignorance was bliss,then you would be the happiest person in the world.
The name is Barbour,dimwit.
172

barbour,

northumberland 04/03/2008 22:03:03
#184
you are only reinforcing my point,if ignorance was bliss,then you would be the happiest person in the world.
The name is Barbour,dimwit.
173

,

04/03/2008 22:37:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

,

04/03/2008 22:45:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
175

Phil1,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 23:20:02
When you are going to make Scotland the new Ireland , the new business centre of Europe you can hardly complain about bringing some competetition intpo the useless Scottish water industry.

Maybe Scottish water will fix the leaks all round Edinburgh this year if they know they can lose business and money if they don't buck up?

At the moment they can do what they like because they are a monopoly - what monopoly looks after its customers as a top priority? - none
176

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 04/03/2008 23:51:08
Gives a new meaning to "If you don't pay, I'll cut your water off". Old aged pensioners on the street with a cup begging for water should bring the tourists. Wake up this is the last resource you allow to be privatised unless you are selling the glen to immigrate.
177

Navvy,

05/03/2008 01:17:14
The cost of domestic water is already higher in Scotland than in countries like Singapore where much of the water is imported and a significant amount is from desalination.

How does Scottish water manage to achieve that price. Take Edinburgh, the reservoirs were paind for a generation ago. The cost is iniquitous and yet this article suggests that domestic water cost is subsidised - unbelievable

Moreover, and I have done the research, there is absolutely no incentive for me to have a metered supply so what I do is leave the mains tap on to keep my mini hydro scheme running which does at least keep the electricity bill down a smidgen

Oh and bye the bye, Edinburgh's water was fine in both cost and quality until it was stolen and given to the useless Scottish Water

ASctually is it God's water and it is being mismanaged by inept Scottish .................

and as Charles Hand said
It is the worst performing water company in the United Kingdom, losing more water per day than anyone else, having a poorer quality of water with lots of bacteria in it, and run down sewerage infrastructure, like the plant that was leaking millions of tons of poo into the Firth of Forth last year. AND it costs more than anywhere else, and you have to pay a flat charge, no matter how little water you use. Talk about lose lose.

I want to be able to choose a water company that provides the best quality of water, and a sewerage company that reliably processes waste without impacting the environment, both of which with a competitive metered price.

I do think that pipes in major urban areas need to be maintained by a not-for profit company though, as you can't have competing companies spawning multiple pipe networks, the roads are already appalling enough in Edinburgh!
178

Tearlich,

Lanark 05/03/2008 01:28:53

Thought you folks would have plenty of water since you aren't fond of bathing/showering that often.

Anyway, all the water you need is the drap tae bring the heart oot of your wee dram.
179

An Beal Bacht,

05/03/2008 05:07:46
I am totally disgusted with the level of discussion on this thread. This is a crucial development in the the future integrity of our water supply. This is not something to be glib or stupid about. This isn't a topic for trollish nonsense - this is an irreversible step and it is being presented as a fait accomplice. Wake up.
180

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 05/03/2008 10:57:19
Navvy #192 and elsewhere. There are some, but fortunately few, selfish money grabbing individuals from Edinburgh who post on these boards. You, sir are in the "some" category. You espouse a "ME,ME,ME attitude to water and its consequence not only in Scotland but the whole planet. What a selfish, narrow minded capitalist you are! The privatisation of Scotland's water would be the ultimate betrayal of everything we hold dear for the benefit of all. This would indeed be a step too far. And if any contributor can name one single SNP MSP who advocates a privatised Scottish Water, name him/her and I will make it my business to name and shame him/her at the next meeting or conference. In England, could anyone tell me if there are ANY English companies who now own the resources and assets of the privatised water boards down there? I am told that few if any are, and most are owned by French/German or international concerns. Earlier one post referred to the horror story of Bolivia's water resources. It was nothing short of terrorism to the indigenous Bolivians who were held hostage by a water company (French) who would only supply the water supply to Coca Cola (Americaa).There is no morality in a £note, $dollar or any other currency. Keep Scotland's water safe in the hands of public jurisdiction no matter the cost. What is more important to HUMAN survival, a pint of oil or a pint of water? There is no choice and that choice should never br in the domain of greedy money fiends like Navvy or the C.B.I. and their ilk!
181

indune1,

05/03/2008 13:41:18
Aren't we taking the huff!!

Rather ironic considering how glib and satirical you have been on other subjects.
182

indune1,

05/03/2008 13:41:43
196 meant for 194.
183

An Beal Bacht,

05/03/2008 15:23:42
Dunnie - you should be well aware of corporate threats to national ownership and control of water resources under NAFTA.

There are times when satire and slagging are appropriate - this isn't one.
184

An Beal Bacht,

05/03/2008 15:24:15
195 - good post.
185

foofighter44,

KDY 05/03/2008 17:39:40
Scottish Water is NOT being privatised. The Water Industry Commission deemed that Scottish Water should be subject to competition in the selling of water to business customers in 2002 with the signing of the Water Industry (Scotland) Act. These changes do not affect the treatment and supply of water, merely who sells the end product as it comes out of a businesses tap. this does not affect the household market. Water is a necessity for life as has already been pointed out and will not be subject to the same restrictions as gas and electricity supplies.

These changes began a number of years ago and all businesses should have been contacted at some point explaining the changes over the last year or so.

Read the legislation before making unfounded comments. This was all passed through Holyrood by the previous Labour Government and marked the increase in investment in our water supplies to bring us up to the level of other countries throughout the UK and Europe.
186

indune1,

Canada 05/03/2008 18:29:59
198 - An Beal Bacht -

Fair enough.

I also share your concern.

However, I can assure you that the majority of Canadians would never, ever stand for a massive commercialisation of our most precious resource.

Successive Canadian governments have said that water is not a commodity for inclusion under any trade agreement.

187

An Beal Bacht,

05/03/2008 19:57:54
200 - foofighter44, KDY 05/03/2008 17:39:40

foofighter - I did read the legislation and what a boring chore that was. I t seems basically quite benign. Companies get a license to provide water to commercial customers - so what - right? The implications of that move go way beyond Scottish legislation and trigger EU, GATT, and WTO trade rules. Perhaps you should read those as they relate to water.

 

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