Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Monday, 6th October 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Poverty: A shameful ghost of Christmas present



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 18 December 2007
WITH a leather sofa, a widescreen television and a spread of Christmas decorations in the front room, Caroline Mockford might appear to have the life of a typical mother of three.
Christmas shoppers at Princes Street, Edinburgh Picture: Jayne Emsley
Christmas shoppers at Princes Street, Edinburgh Picture: Jayne Emsley
But behind the tinsel lies a story that is now played out in about one in five households across Scotland.

Look more closely and you learn that the presents for her 10-year-old daughter, Emma, were bought at a charity shop: two board games at £2 each. The small, artificial Christmas tree given pride of place in the living room of the housing association flat she shares with partner Willie has been donated by a charity.

Her one extravagance was a new copy of the Guinness Book of Records. It cost £18, a sum many will splash out on stocking fillers. To save for it, however, Caroline has often eaten only a slice of toast for dinner for the past two weeks.

This is the face of poverty in Scotland in 2007.

Caroline's story has been revealed on the day that an influential committee of MPs publishes a report showing that almost a million Scots are living in poverty.

A wide-ranging investigation by members of the Scottish Affairs Committee also estimates there are 250,000 children in Scotland caught in the poverty trap.

The report argues that while poverty rates have fallen, those reductions had not been evenly spread across society.

The largest falls have been in the areas of child poverty and pensioner poverty – both the subject of high-profile government campaigns – but poverty among working age adults has remained broadly unchanged.

MPs highlight the "considerable barriers" some people face when looking for work – inadequate childcare, geographical isolation and provision for disabilities.

The new report contains a catalogue of recommendations, including a call for the UK government to review the criteria for benefits aimed at combating fuel poverty and says there should be greater co-operation between Westminster, the Scottish Government, energy companies and others to tackle fuel poverty.

A number of recommendations have been made to tackle illegal money lending. In a strongly worded attack on financial institutions, the MPs claim a "thriving industry" is based on exploiting the poor. And some committee members go further and say the courts should have the power to impose an interest rate cap.

Mohammad Sarwar, chairman of the committee and MP for Glasgow Central, said it was "frightening" how people who borrowed modest sums could find their debt mounting by the combined effect of high interest rates, penalty charges and service charges.

"People who are borrowing a few thousand pounds end up losing their belongings and losing their home," he said. "We are not talking about illegal money lenders here, although that is a problem.

"For so-called legal money lending, how can someone justify that when the bank rate is less than 6 per cent, people will be paying 20 times more, and then end up losing everything?"

Caroline knows only too well the dangers of getting into debt. Last Christmas, eager to please her daughter, and in need of new clothes for the family, she took out a loan with a personal credit company which charged 183.2 per cent APR on loans of up to £500.

Though they borrowed just £1,000, they are having to pay back £3,700 in installments of nearly £200 a month. The loan was, she recalls, a desperate measure, and one she now regrets.

Every month, Caroline and her partner receive about £525 in benefits, made up of disability allowance, incapacity benefits, carer's allowance and child benefit.

Their rent is about £235 a month and telephone charges are £15. But this is small fare compared to the loan repayments.

The family's problems began shortly after Emma was born, when she was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, the chronic inflammatory condition, and osteoporosis. At the time she had three jobs but was forced to give these up, while her partner did the same to care for her full time. The family's budget was torn asunder. Instead of two incomes, they had to rely on the state, a set-up which continues today.

To help relieve her condition, Caroline seldom has her heating off, and her monthly gas and electricity bills amount to about £130. And that is before Emma's special diet is to be taken into account.

The MPs' report also calls for a review of the government's preferred measure of poverty – currently households with less than 60 per cent of the median income.

This relative measure means most of those in poverty no longer live in squalid, Dickensian conditions, but instead have to make difficult choices about basic subjects: feeding themselves and their children; heating their home; or buying Christmas presents for their children.

Caroline, 43, who also has two older daughters, faces stark choices every day. "I struggle to feed myself and keep warm. Mentally, it gets to me. Sometimes I dwell on that, and I think, 'What's the point of living?'" she says. "I often think Emma would be better off if I wasn't here, that she'd get a better standard of life in a home."

At the weekend, her Christmas shopping was done wearing a pair of bedraggled boots, the soles so badly worn away they are lined with plastic carrier bags.

The only presents will be for the children. Caroline and Willie cannot afford to buy one another gifts, while they have asked relatives not for iPods, but food.

Peter Kelly, director of the Poverty Alliance charity, said there should be a wider definition of poverty which shows exactly what a person can live on.

"The 60 per cent threshold doesn't say what is an adequate income to live on in Scotland. By saying what the adequate income is, you can set benefits accordingly.

"Poverty in Scotland is about not being able to afford to pay for school trips for your child... not being able to celebrate Christmas or birthdays without getting into debt. It's an enduring myth that we're all getting richer."

Caroline has no grand solutions to her predicament, but believes little gestures would make a difference – a one-off Christmas payment of about £30, or two school uniform grants instead of one.

She will try to ensure next Tuesday is a day to remember for the right reasons. "Emma will be really happy with the Guinness Book of Records," she said. "You should have seen her face when we got our second-hand tree and she asked to decorate it."

MEASURES OF DEPRIVATION

POVERTY in the UK is usually measured on a relative, rather than an absolute, scale. Absolute poverty is a term often used to refer to a person in the Third World who has insufficient food and shelter, and faces a daily struggle for survival.

Campaigners argue that relative poverty is a more realistic yardstick for the 21st century, comparing general standards of living that have become the norm.

The poverty measure favoured by the UK government, and used by many other bodies worldwide, classifies those with a household income under 60 per cent of median earnings as living in poverty.

This measure is disputed by some, who argue that those living on such an income in reality receive nothing like a "living wage".

Some leading charities believe the definition of poverty should be widened to demonstrate exactly how much a person can live on.

They claim that accurately identifying an adequate minimum level of income is an important step in the fight against poverty. However, this is difficult because the level of income required to meet a family's needs is likely to vary from region to region.

Those living in relative poverty are often excluded from activities such as buying Christmas presents or going on holiday. Once factors such as travel and clothing are taken into account, even low-cost activities, such as visiting the local swimming baths, may be out of reach for many living below the poverty line.



The full article contains 1338 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 December 2007 12:10 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish child poverty
 
1

The Strategist,

18/12/2007 00:18:25
But it's all OK... These people are doing really well.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/business/Financial-services-in-Scotland-still.3598446.jp

and allegedly whilst financial services is making lots of money the rest of us will benefit.

Doesn't seem to quite like that though does it.
2

TommyKaye,

UK 18/12/2007 00:34:27
Poverty 2007 = successive champagne socialist Labour administrations.
3

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 01:25:45
Why don't we shop all the benefit cheats that we know to help the genuine cases?

That works.
4

Kipling,

18/12/2007 01:34:03
One fifth of the scottish people in poverty! Can't the government set up its own 'lending' or 'credit' organisation for those below a certain income and keep the interest rates to an absolute minimum.
5

Don't run greetin to me when you break a leg!,

Falkirk 18/12/2007 01:51:00
#3 I'm with you, but it needs more than a fancy ad campaign , no ifs or buts.
6

Mike Dinsmore,

West o' Aberdeen 18/12/2007 01:51:49
If Donald Trump really wanted to do something for Scotland, he would help people like these. We don't need new golf courses - we need a decent standard of living for everyone.
7

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 02:06:22
Why bother about billions allegedly "cheated" out of the benefit system when we allow billions more to be removed from society by the fat cats of industry and the banking world, all paid salary, bonuses, and share options far in excess of any contribution they make to society?

Bring back supertax! 95% in the pound for all earnings over £100,000 a year.
8

Don't run greetin to me when you break a leg!,

High St Lithgae, in the bookies looking for Alex. 18/12/2007 02:21:51
The Scottish Government needs to stop messing about and get in about the mince of these benefit thiefs.

Yes it will be tough on genuine claimants but its the only way to get the cheats out of the system.

Next time your out have a look at the number of people carrying "surgical" walking sticks, aka "Dole Poles".
Watch them carefully, you will see that most (Not All) have no need for the stick other that to support their fraudulent benefit claim.

So your not physically able to work. If your genuine you will put up with being assessed by a doctor employed by the benefits agency. Once approved you will get all the benefits you are entitled to and deserve. I have no axe to grind there.

However if you are a bit of a hypoCONdriac(sic)you are going to have to be assessed, not by your own comfortable mild mannered GP but by an independant Doctor whose job is to sniff out the cheats.

Not only are the cheats going to think twice about being assessed this way, if they do have the parts to try it on for size, they are going to have a hard time persuading anyone that they have a genuine condition that prevents them from working.

Will some genuine cases get caught in the crossfire, for sure yes. That is a sad fact. In the end though those that deserve will get.

Will this cost a lot of money, Yes, a huge big pile of the stuff, but, the savings in the long run will be far greater and allow those who have genuine need to be looked after properly.

Its time for some tough love.


9

Second Hand,

Malaysia 18/12/2007 02:44:21
I'm sorry. Poverty!!! Sitting on her leather suite watching her flat screen tv.
She took out a loan to please her family last xmas. Well, she knew the rates, she went looking for the loan. Why cant people live within their means. If you don't have it, don't spend it. Real poverty here in Malyasia is if you don't work, you don't eat. Turn the telly off and get a job.
10

TommyKaye,

UK 18/12/2007 02:56:36
Maybe there might be some money left over from these people to help the needy eh Wendy?

Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row
WENDY ALEXANDER, the Scottish Labour leader, faces a new crisis after it emerged that she and senior colleagues have given thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money to a company that helps with campaigns for the party.
Alexander is already under pressure to resign after she admitted receiving an illegal donation for her leadership campaign from Paul Green, a businessman based in Jersey who is not a UK voter.
Now it has emerged that she, along with eight senior colleagues, used parliamentary allowances to pay £5,000 to Computing for Labour (CfL), a company owned by the party and based at its London headquarters. It provides IT services that are offered free by the Scottish parliament.
CfL provides software which helps politicians to organise files on individual constituents.
It is used not only by 13 Labour members of the Scottish parliament (MSPs) but also by 260 Labour MPs and 16 Welsh assembly members. Between them, they pay the organisation an estimated £68,000 a year from their parliamentary allowances.
The money is paid even though similar software has been available free to MSPs of all parties through the Scottish parliament’s IT department since 2003. Westminster politicians said the only other systems available to them had to be paid for.
CfL helps Labour to campaign during elections, designing candidates’ websites and software that allows them to send text messages directly to voters. Its website states that it is “a membership organisation set up to encourage and support the use of computers so that they contribute to achieving the party’s aims”.
Parliamentary authorities prohibit the use of office equipment paid out of allowances to be used for party purposes but have permitted payments to CfL on the grounds that MSPs require support to help to deal with constituents’ problems.
However, a former CfL employee said that i
11

W Smith,

Middle East 18/12/2007 03:30:10
Of course life in Cuba and North Korea is so wonderful not like 'poor' Scotland.

Funny how some folks only want to talk about the salaries in the banking sector.

If Fred Goodwin played for the Old Firm my guess is his salary wouldn't be an issue.

What about the overpaid lazy gits in Scotland's public sector?

Starting with Mr 'two salaries' Salmond who drives to Aviemore in his hybrid Lexus.

What about Mr Connery and Mr Farmer's personal wealth?

Thats not 'obscene' then, eh?

If you think all the champagne socialists are in the Labour Party then you need to pay attention.
12

Pete40,

Tassy 18/12/2007 04:38:12
Well some guy two thousand years ago mentioned that the poor will be with you always. It would maybe help if you discouraged cheap easy credit and slot machines.
13

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 18/12/2007 05:17:07
Why are both of these adults not working? I understand one adult staying at home to look after a child with health problems (even though, if real 'poverty' were present, even that luxury wouldn't be affordable).

The answer is, of course, that both adults can afford to stay at home - courtesy of the working taxpayers of Scotland. Dine on toast she might but without the taxpayers' safety net she'd learn damned quickly that taking out loans when you have no sustainable income is irresponsible in the extreme.

And there you have the root of the whole 'poverty' squawk in Scotland. Our outrageous social security system promotes irresponsibility. Address this first, Mohammad, and you'll be doing more than just spouting off.
14

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 05:32:12
Lifes too easy here for the lazy. Here's an idea?

Why don't we get them working on some public works, like the Pyramids, Myan cities, Terracota warriors, etc etc etc. At least they would be learning a skill, developing a work ethic and we would all benefit from having another tourist site.

Cost - Labour free ( benefits paid fortnightly)
Materials - depends on plans.

We could completely regenerate Glasgow by using the very same people who are brining it down.
15

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 05:34:56
Change of heart.

We should be proud of our poverty.

I'm no working in a capitalist system
16

LaSagesse,

On my Dell. 18/12/2007 05:39:15
This front opening page is lousy. I won't bother reading any more. Do you readers like it?
17

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 18/12/2007 06:35:51
Some good points have been made above. If 20% of Scottish families are living in 'relative' (ie not absolute) poverty then what does this tell us about 20% of Scots? At the very least this family is author of many of its own problems. Many families have kids that need care, but somehow avoid debt, stay in work, make ends meet and cope. Why work when the state is so generous?
18

TimW,

Elgin 18/12/2007 06:58:14
Whilst the case of Caroline and her partner is sad - it appears to be written in the 'shock' style, and yet the whole article fails to point out the complete contradictions in the tale.
Leather Sofa, Flat screen telly - it seems to me that there are wrong priorities somewhere. I have neither of those things and certainly do not consider myself to be in poverty! Yes, the daughter does have a debilitating disease, but does that merit BOTH parents giving up their jobs to act as carers? Much as we would like to be able to devote all of our time to our sick offspring, our sense of responsibility to the rest of the family must play a part in the decision making process, and it certainly won't help the little one if her parents become destitute due to having no stable income other than benefits.
19

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 06:59:06
#13 and #17,

Good points. The reporter here definitely should have been more incisive with his questioning. Why exactly does it take 2 able-bodied adults to look after a child with an illness?

These people are obviously in a bad situation but this is partially of their own making. I mean a 280% loan to buy Xmas presents. Neither sensible or necessary.
20

Agent 99,

18/12/2007 06:59:27
[17] 20% of Scottish families are living in relative poverty because that's the way the measure is defined.

If you define a point where poverty starts as being X, then by definition all those below X will be classed as poor. Because of inflation absolute measures of X are meaningless, therefore it's a relative measure; relative to the spread of incomes.

With this banding you are certain of one thing: there will always be the poor. The journalist is either being economical with the truth or just plain cynical.

[16] Yeah, it sucks. And the page hierarchy is rubbish too.
21

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 07:07:54
You can hardly expect those on benefits to watch their wide screen TV from anything other than a leather sofa.

It may be that both of these were bought when they were working, but both of them giving uo their jobs to look after one child, is a bit excessive.

But there you go. If you make giving up work attractive, then they will do it. Why not become a master of benefits and claim substantially more than that.

If you know the system, you can remain pissed in a bar all week, courtesy of yours truly.

Shop a benefit cheat - they are stopping pensioners who have worked their whole life getting heating.

22

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 07:12:40
Gregorf,

Exactly, you would have thought the reporters could have come up with a more deserving case for sympathy than this one. I mean, couldn't they have found a single mother with a disabled child who had to go to a loan shark to borrow money to pay her heating bill?
23

somerferg,

oz 18/12/2007 07:17:08

Memo to W Smith - not too sure why you are slagging off Sir Sean Connery or Tom Farmer or Alex Salmond for that matter all of whom have worked their buts off to improve the lives of all Scots unlike the Layabout Party which over the last 50 years has presided over Scotland reducing a huge number of its people to abject poverty whilst of course lining their own pockets. And to everyone else please remmeber when you are reading this story that these people are living in a country with the largest oil reserves in Europe. Bet you won't find too many stories like this if you look at other European oil producing nations e.g. Norway. Think on, 30 odd years of oil revenue being leached away to float the south east and the great unwashed who live there whilst Scots are treated like second class citizens.
24

Pocket Dictionary,

18/12/2007 07:21:07
#12 He also said be content with what you have and don't chase after materialism.

I think it's in Buddhism that it says, careful for what you wish for, as it will only bring you heartache.
25

enmuffins,

carlsbad 18/12/2007 07:31:13
Who is the sick one, Emma or Caroline? I cant imagine that the child has osteoporosis but maybe I'm wrong.
26

Iain fae Elgin,

London 18/12/2007 07:42:26
Leather sofa, flat screen telly?

The did have jobs before. People who are poor are allowed to have posessions. If you must crtisise, do it in the right areas.
27

Itchy,

18/12/2007 07:46:04
#7 "Bring back supertax! 95% in the pound for all earnings over £100,000 a year."

This socialist drivel is precisely what is wrong with Scotland and is why so many are trapped in poverty.

Message to you: Socialism failed many times throughout the 20th century and is still failing today.
28

malhombre,

Spain 18/12/2007 07:48:54
Poverty? I really wish that people would stop using that word when talking about poor people. There is no poverty in the UK! Desperately poor people yes,people who cannot cope yes.But they are not poverty stricken in the true sense of the word.
If you want to see poverty you need to travel the world. I could list so many countries where there is true poverty and Scotland and the UK as whole are not on that list.
I have seen poverty and it is not pretty, Darfur is poverty, Zimbabwe is poverty, half of Africa is poverty, two thirds of the Indian sub continent are poverty. I have seen poverty in the oil rich Gulf states.
A sense of perspective needs to come in here I think.
29

Ed_Izmir,

Bostanli 18/12/2007 07:53:13
So it's not poverty at all is it? It is significant spread in income levels. That's not a surprise. For me this article is more revealing about how those earning at 60% or less of the average choose to spend their money.
30

mina,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 07:53:19
I have every sympathy with families who are struggling with finances, especially at this time of year.
Unfortunately desperate people accept appalling rates of interest on loans, because they cannot obtain credit any were else.
I will not judge this family, it is stated that they both worked until their 3rd child was born, who was diagnosed with Chrohn's and Osteoporosis, both difficult to deal with.
I feel certain more could have been said by the couple to allow us to understand their plight.
What ever some people think, there are families out there who are having a miserable time.
#22
I find your remark a perfect example of ignorance to the very real miserable, frightening existence of many.
31

enmuffins,

carlsbad 18/12/2007 07:58:05
Who is the sick one, the mother or child? I didnt think children had osteoporosis.
32

mina,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 08:04:18
#30
Sorry,I meant to write about the mother developing those diseases.
33

Mrs Mills,

Livingston 18/12/2007 08:11:20
Very interesting, but was an advertisement for Diamonds in the middle of an article on poverty warranted?
34

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 18/12/2007 08:23:31
There are several Polish girls cleaning and ironing around here for £8 per hour and their male friends are cleaning windows @ £15 per house.
Get off yer butts and stop whingeing!
PS, what are the odds on the poor 20% smoking and drinking, which would be, what £10 per day-£300 per month?
35

Scotish Exile,

Far away from home 18/12/2007 08:30:05
Poverty is relative, there will always be the "rich" and the "poor", its a fact of life. Get up off your lazy behinds and work and earn money and live within your means, why should the state subsidise you??
36

Boswall,

18/12/2007 08:30:52
#1

What's your point? There's a quarter million skint folk in Scotland therefore no one should be allowed to be successful of the back of their own hard work?

Hows about we just shut down the loan sharks and you lay off one of the few successful elements of the Scottish economy.
37

SimonW,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 08:36:50
#21 Gregorf
#13 John Blackley

The mother is sick, not the child. That's why she gave up work and the father gave up work to look after her.

Jeez, there are some horrible mean spirited souls around this place.

Makes you proud to be Scots.............not.
38

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 08:40:20
Get a freaking job you lazy buggers!
39

sceptic,

18/12/2007 08:44:12
"For so-called legal money lending, how can someone justify that when the bank rate is less than 6 per cent, people will be paying 20 times more, and then end up losing everything?"
Easily justified because nobody else would be daft enough to give them a loan on any terms.
40

Logie Almond,

18/12/2007 08:58:12
Pure arithmetic dictates that you will never eradicate poverty as long as it is defined as "those with a household income under 60per cent of median earnings as living in poverty."
41

subrosa,

18/12/2007 09:02:25
I've had Crohn's disease for years and worked. There is a lot of support out there and her doctor should have given her the relevant information.

Also something wrong with the maths here. A benefits income of £525 for two adults, one young child and two older children should qualify for a total rent and community charge rebate.

Whilst I sympathise with anyone without money I have to say I'm sure many of my generation have often done without to ensure our children are looked after. It was the 'done' thing in days gone by and we just had to live within our means as there were no safety nets then.

42

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:07:16
38

We could get our banks to create a subprime market for people unfortunate as this. Then again, given the number of people in this unfortunate position, it would in all liklihood bring down the loans market.

I think 21 and 13 made a genuine mistake, although the mean spirited people are those who take the benefits without being entitled to them, and develop the benefits lifestyle at the expense of genuine cases such as above.

Shop a benefits cheat today and give genuine cases, especially the old who have contributed their whole lives to the system, the money they need.

On a lighter note, nice to see we have plenty of knives on the streets.

Not looking forward to coming back to Scotland this Christmas because:

1 The poverty
2. The violence
3. The political corruption
4. The diet

So Iam going to stay in Sierra Leone
3.
43

Anne,

18/12/2007 09:10:51
Daughter's acquaintance, unmarried mother of a five year old, manages very nicely, thank you.
In order to get as much money through working as she gets sitting on her backside, a job would need to pay £16000 a year.
Her qualifications are ziltch - any guesses as to when she will join the workforce/
44

inoui,

Bordeaux 18/12/2007 09:15:55
Hardly news, exists every year and every day, but nothing has changed regardless of politics.
45

Red Tower,

Dunoon 18/12/2007 09:16:56
Whilst I agree with some of the criticism of this family I think it avoids a concomitant point. That is that the gap between rich and poor has widened considerably under Labour administrations both here and at Westminster. This suggests that the issue of spreading wealth, a policy that historically has been a raison d'etre for the party's existence, has not only not been addressed but that the reverse has been allowed to happen.
Labour should of course be condemned and it should be hounded from office. However does anyone honestly believe that a Tory government would spread wealth more evenly.
If we want a government that matches action with expressions of concern on issues such as this then you start by reforming the electoral system.
46

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:17:23
22 or

the pensioner who worked their whole life paying into the system, only to get nothing out of it to the extent that they freeze over the winter because all the cash is going to benefit cheats.

The above case is terrible and I think many people misread the article in that they thought the child was ill. There are worse and lots of them.

Its the old that can't heat their homes that really gets my goat. Having watched OAP's get turned down for central heating because they come from an age of honesty, and then watched a lifestyle benefits guru get another check for his household goods that were 'stolen' again, makes me sick.

Shop a benefits cheat today and save the life of a OAP today
47

thinking,

Scotland 18/12/2007 09:18:14
'a leather sofa, a widescreen television'
It depends what you call poverty.
I don't have either of the above but I have food to eat and a roof over my head (rented) and, more importantly family and friends.
My grandchildren have a few small presents often bought at charity shops or in sales.
Lavish presents don't make Christmas.
Ask most people about their favourite Christmases and they usually remember doing things together with family and friends, most don't remember the presents they had.
48

Ken,

18/12/2007 09:23:23
This is NOT poverty. Go to Africa to see that!
This woman is not uncommon, to me she is a sponger. I bet she never paid for the sofa and wide screen tv, and if she did then she should be ashamed. There is very little difference between a single mums handouts and an average wage earner. What do these people want. A life of leisure! Go and get a job!
49

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:25:45
43

The answer is never. Thats because we encourage this sort of thing. Get laid at 16 = free house and 16k a year.

The career adviser probably got paid by the last administration for dishing out the advice.
50

Stevec010,

ayrshire 18/12/2007 09:30:23
Partial solution to this persons high fuel bill. go to work. cut down on daytime rumpy pumpy. make a effort to put money into the pot, rather that take take take.
51

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 09:32:55
Well , first of all I would be very suprised if this person actually exists.

Caroline Mockford is a childrens book illustrator , or a solicitor.

http://www.mmwin.co.uk/about_us.html

The above reads like something by Charles Dickens , I'm pretty ur it's just been made up to rattle us.

Anyway , too many people in Scotland are on Benefits. Go out and get a job ! If people are stupid enough to take loans from loan sharks be it on thei own heads.

We cant have a two tier society, with "affordable housing" and benefits and preferential loans and such for some - and the real world for the others.

I know i'm sounding a bit right wing here but the world does not owe these people a living and capitalism is the system we live under. Either they try to change it or join in.
52

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:33:39
Thats the problem though when you live in a poverty laced country.

It reaches the point where there is no point working, you claim benefits and things get worse socially. The workers leave because they are fed up paying for others who choose not to work, the population falls and we lose the people who could make a difference and then we have to recruit people from other places to do the jobs that own won't do - because its better paid doing nothing.

Thankfully we can attract people to Scotland to work, because lets face it, the indigenous population is not only soft in the head, they are also weak on the work front.

I used to vote for independence but lets face it, there are too many oiks in Scotland who think the world owes them a living.

I ain't going to pay for them to sit in their houses, smoke dope, drink and watch TV.

Shop a benefits cheat today

53

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 09:44:21
I just love the "small artificial christmas tree" reference. I wonder how embellished it is.

I have one of them. Now i feel dirty and poor.
54

Ken,

18/12/2007 09:48:48
Ian Paisley, 'used to vote for independence'!Dont recollect ever having a referendum on that one :-)
I wonder if people vote for the tories, labour or the liberals they are really only voting not to be independent. Anyhow, apart from that , I sadly agree with most of your comments, however england/wales etc also have many spongers too, and people who earn far too much.
There is not a rich poor divide, there is 'an average wage earner' and 'rich' devide. The real workers like nurses, ambulance staff earn around the national average, and they are doing more and more, while GP's for example are doing less and less, but (I'll not use the term earn) are given far, far too much.
55

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 09:51:15
I agree with you Ian Paisley.

Donald Trumps development is not the best example but what kind of message does it send out when we would rather have our undeveloped but beautiful and wild countryside (great for looking at but not much more) rather than some inward development in our country. Life can be tough and being poor is awful. At the end of the day though you really DO have to just get off your ass and do some work though. If you can get yourself together to get a TV , you can do a job.


56

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 09:55:42
TO those of you that blame this on politics - every single one of us in the UK has been given the personal power to do whatever we like with our lives, with a little imagination required.

I believe in the power of the individual within a free market.

Theres a huge dependancy culture in scotland and too much of a willingness to blame your own ills on society, or on government or on whatever.

It has to change.
57

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 10:03:36
54 :-)

Your right Ken, it was a dream I had. I looked out of my Gulag window and wondered what democracy was like.

I got a letter from a penpal, Wendy Alexander, who often dreamed of a 'socialist ideal', people in poverty, knife crime, largesse civil base, who said that letting people decide their own destiny was against all political norms - it was against the 'party'.

My mother suggested to the Gulag commandant, that he change the menu as we were getting bored eating cabbage and milk, and that everyone agreed with her. We needed change and she wanted to put this to the vote.

It was a quick death by firing squad and we all remained poor with other people making decisions for us. We believed they knew better, but they didn't. Our opinions did not exist in the Gulag.
58

AbandonAllHope,

18/12/2007 10:05:06
Well thats it, i'm sick of this paper and sick of the snobbish mindless comments delivered by the commentators. 'get a job' 'lazy b8stards' etc etc, it truly reflects Edinburgh, a nasty, bitter city.
59

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 10:08:40
Off to catch that China Glasgow flight. Back in time for that famous Wednesday Glasgow crack.

Any tips on staying alive when I touch down?

I know to avoid the food, shellsuit wearing types, those with bigoted tattoos and those high on the 'welfare dope smoking life watching plasma screens' drunk types.

But apart from the obvious?

Oh yeah forgot one. Don't visit your granny as you may find her dead due to the cold and her inability to afford heating because the dolies are scamming the workers contributions to the welfare state.
60

Flash67,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 10:18:37
#58.... um, in case you hadn't noticed, the Scotsman is a NATIONAL paper, not a local one.
Mindless comments like 'Edinburgh is a nasty, bitter city' ??
I'm an ex-weegie, and I saw a heck of a lot more 'bitterness' in the West of Scotland than I do in Edinburgh... and most of the reactionary, racist, sectarian comments I hear these days come from - you've guessed it - west coast 'schemies' .... (I grew up in an Inverclyde council house scheme myself, but escaped my 'poverty', and more importantly, the bigotry, xenophobia, and the 'it's society's fault' culture that many people have there....
61

Maurice,

Fife 18/12/2007 10:20:50
Leather sofa, Xmas decorations , wide screen TV, £4 for games and £18 for a book??? Poverty?
Who calls this poverty. Anyone that does needs to open thier eyes to the world a bit. Statistically this lady described falls within the richest 20% of the worlds population. When I left Africa just over 3 years ago i could have pointed out hundreds of people living nearby to me that earned less in a year (literally) than just the £24 mentioned. Time to wake up and smell the cof.... Sorry couldnt affoerd it. Acorn tea instead
62

Ken,

18/12/2007 10:37:29
#58,
Judging by the usual comments 'we' are all sick of this paper. Still this forum is just fine!
I do not live in Edinburgh. I live in Aberfeldy where the gulf between average income and far too large is very obvious. I have not seen any poverty, however.
I think it is all about priorities. This female and her family have the best of furniture and tv's, yet claims to only be able to afford cheap presents for her kids. Maybe she should not have spent all that money on the tv etc, if indeed she did, and it was not 'us' who paid for it.
Why do I say this! I have two jobs, my wife one. We have two young children, we have a really large mortgage. We do not have a huge tv, go on expensive holidays, have a leather sofa etc.... We prioritise our income to cover 1. The mortgage, 2. the bills 3. food, 4. keeping my car on the road (very bad bus service here), 5.clothes, 6. others things etc...
Not much left after that. I sometime think that I could have just gone on the council housing list years ago. I would not have a nice house, low rent, no worries!! Still, not complaining, it is just these sort of winging stories really gets me annoyed.
63

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 10:40:50
58 . Grow up. Get a job. The rest of us have to.
64

Mcsnagpile,

18/12/2007 10:52:16
The psychology of this article and the comments are old enough to be in Maw Broon’s Cookbook. So many political criminals have used the word socialism over the years that it has become a joke word, Examples, (Stalin, Hitler, Mao.) The word usually means you are going to suffer for the common good. Long marches, concentration camps, class cleansing. Social benefits are an expensive sop. All human beings want to belong,have dignity, and should have the opportunity to contribute to society.

After a year of lying, stealing, cheating, standing on fingers,, making everyone’s life a misery, are you now going to cry for a few days over a wee lassie that froze to death because she ran out of matches?
65

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 11:12:02
This really is rubbish reporting and Alan the Editor should have scrawled "Do Again" on it and made these two idle hacks miss the Scotsman Christmas Party.

Not at all clear which person from the household is suffering from what. In any case, daughter Emma at aged 10 will be at school most of the time so that really means that Willie has decided to be a full time carer for Caroline - someone who is not actually housebound since she manages to go Christmas shopping in the boots with plastic bags inside. The list of benefits they are receiving excludes Housing Benefit for some reason (the rent would appear to be about average for Edinburgh council housing) so maybe they don't qualify or just forgot to mention it.

If they are currently making loan repayments of just under £200 towards last year's stupidly taken out loan then presumably they could have easily put around £100 per month away towards Christmas/clothes/holidays/whatever instead of getting a loan in the first place. The more you look at this story, the more you see that they are where they are because of bad decisions they have made and not because the welfare state has let them down.

I wonder if Martyn and Tanya noticed Tiny Tim's crutches leaning against the wide screen telly ?


66

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 11:13:20
The family Christmas described for Caroline, Willie and Emma sounds just like the ones I enjoyed as a child - modest presents, carefully bought. Caroline and Willie have to watch the pennies and make choices. So did we. But what is described is not poverty, or anything like it.
67

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 11:21:58
Anyway ... this might cheer you up (its clean).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk7IYE1EnEY&feature=related
68

subrosa,

18/12/2007 11:25:53
#59
69

sahsa,

18/12/2007 11:33:34
I totally agree with you no.4. this is someone who is talking sense for a change.
70

Ayrshire Scot™ ,

18/12/2007 11:41:38
Why doesnt one of them work????

Or they could both work part time and still care for their children.

I bet they both smoke and drink as well.
71

subrosa,

18/12/2007 11:49:45
#59
72

subrosa,

18/12/2007 11:50:29
#59 Ooops I meant to say Happy Trip and watch out for the 'Welcome to Scotland' sign at the airport :)
73

Ken,

18/12/2007 12:09:59
Caroline should sell her wide screen tv (must be at least £500 worth) could get enough from that, maybe £200 to get a small second hand CRT TV (£50) and still have enough for £150 worth of gifts! and maybe a pair of new boots.
74

The Pragmatist,

18/12/2007 12:10:35
What a disgrace. Why don't they sell their tv and buy a cheap black and white? why don't they sell their leather sofa and buy a couple of cheaper chairs? do they smoke and drink? bet they never eat fruit and vegetables. bet they have laminate flooring. The tax payer pays for these illiterate scroungers.
75

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 18/12/2007 12:29:09
Ten years of New Labour and one million Scots still live in Poverty.

New Labour are the party of "big business" and simply don't care about the Peasants like us who vote them into power.
76

Darren, Edinburgh,

18/12/2007 12:30:27
I am genuinely sorry for those that find themselves in this position through no fault of their own, however, people have to help themselves too. £18 for the Guiness Book of Records? Unless this is the reporter making up some of the story, a number of stores were selling the book for half that price.
77

Meep,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 12:37:02
What a load of old rubbish. This article omits several of the additional benefits that the family will be receiving (including housing benefit which SHOULD pay their rent, but which, because it is not always paid direct to landlords, many claimants choose to spend on alcohol and Nintendo games).

Look to countries like the new members of the EU to see actual poverty in action.
78

Publius,

London 18/12/2007 12:40:50
Interest of 183.2 per cent. This is difficult to believe. Is this legal? Is it a misprint? If it legal, it should be made illegal.
#56 The Genuine Mario Antoinette and some others. You are wrong. Of course self-reliance is a good thing, but individuals do fall by the wayside. We do not have enough information in the article to tell whether Caroline Mockford's problems are self-inflicted. And even if they are society (the state) ought to care for the children.
Perhaps we need 'tough love' or automatic ending of benefits after so many months or years. But we do not have information to know whether tough love would help in this instance.
79

Allan(handofgod137),

18/12/2007 12:48:27
Ah,the bleeding hearts and hand wringers are out in force today. This is the consequence of the socialist policys that Scotland has followed for so many years, despite seeing their failure elsewhere.
80

Kipling,

18/12/2007 12:57:20
It's true. It does look a faked story or at least not the best example for a story on poverty. There is no history line. At one point Caroline has had 3 jobs. But if things went wrong after Emma was born, that was some 9 years ago. Perhaps they had savings. The leather settee might be an old one. The widescreen tv might have been a gift. Like many members of the population she is not able to make the right financial decisions. The focus of the story I thought was on the fact that they were forced to make decisions which allowed a sufferable life, with money to spend on small luxuries at Christmas, but only by foregoing necessities that many people take for granted (ie, getting a new pair of boots, having a properly nutritious meal, etc.). Maybe they're trying not to access all the benefits they are allowed ? Who knows? There should have been a table of incomings/outgoings to enable readers properly to evaluate their circumstances.

It seems more a story to do with falling on hard times and how people cope with that.
81

Meep,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:03:23
Nope, Kipling. I reckon it's a lobbying peace about how insufficient the ridiculously generous benefits system is.
82

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:26:25
Here's a link to an article in the chicago tribune by a guy called John Scalzi. It references a lot of American things, but by god it applies to life here as well. maybe something to think about for those posters who appear to believe poor people are poor on purpose and that punishing them for being poor will force them to become wealthy.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0509150091sep15,1,3209937.story?page=3&ctrack=1&cset=true&coll=chi-news-hed
83

clark_scot1313,

MI.u.s.a. 18/12/2007 13:27:29
I grew up in poverty in the kirkgate back in the 40 to 50's, my mother worked every day of here life,dad was never around, if it was not for the free school lunches at DK. i would have been hungry, i see not much has changed in 40yrs
84

Neil, Texas,

Austin 18/12/2007 13:27:40
This article is very badly researched and written (the author needs to learn how to write a paragraph). I have re read it and I am still unclear who is ill, the mother or the child?

With regard to having sympathy for the financial predicament they are in, I have none. Why for example is it necessary to have the latest in technology with regard to thei television. They could have aquired a decent second hand TV very cheaply and not taken out the loan in the first place.

As previous posters have stated the conduct of the interview was poor and the questions that should have been asked were not. The Scotsman, yet again, maintains the standard of journalism that we have all come to expect.
85

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:29:05
Oops, I'll try posting that link again with appropriate linefeeds.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion
/chi-0509150091sep15,1,3209937.story?
page=3&ctrack=1&cset=true&coll=chi-news-hed


86

clark_scot1313,

caro 18/12/2007 13:30:35
*Please enter your comment*
87

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:37:17
86, IainA, I can't get anywhere with your link. But Caroline, Willie and Emma, the people in the article, don't seem to me to be poor in any meaningful sense. They have to watch the pennies and make choices, that's all.
88

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

18/12/2007 13:41:45
It's a terribl article and very hard to know

A) if its totally made up

or

B) what the actual facts are and what they are doing themselves to get out of "poverty".

As others have said , 500 a week - wherever it comes from - is NOT poverty.

May i suggest poverty of spirit is the real problem here.