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Poverty: A shameful ghost of Christmas present

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Published Date: 18 December 2007
WITH a leather sofa, a widescreen television and a spread of Christmas decorations in the front room, Caroline Mockford might appear to have the life of a typical mother of three.
Christmas shoppers at Princes Street, Edinburgh Picture: Jayne Emsley
Christmas shoppers at Princes Street, Edinburgh Picture: Jayne Emsley
But behind the tinsel lies a story that is now played out in about one in five households across Scotland.

Look more closely and you learn that the presents for her 10-year-old daughter, Emma, were bought at a charity shop: two board games at £2 each. The small, artificial Christmas tree given pride of place in the living room of the housing association flat she shares with partner Willie has been donated by a charity.

Her one extravagance was a new copy of the Guinness Book of Records. It cost £18, a sum many will splash out on stocking fillers. To save for it, however, Caroline has often eaten only a slice of toast for dinner for the past two weeks.

This is the face of poverty in Scotland in 2007.

Caroline's story has been revealed on the day that an influential committee of MPs publishes a report showing that almost a million Scots are living in poverty.

A wide-ranging investigation by members of the Scottish Affairs Committee also estimates there are 250,000 children in Scotland caught in the poverty trap.

The report argues that while poverty rates have fallen, those reductions had not been evenly spread across society.

The largest falls have been in the areas of child poverty and pensioner poverty – both the subject of high-profile government campaigns – but poverty among working age adults has remained broadly unchanged.

MPs highlight the "considerable barriers" some people face when looking for work – inadequate childcare, geographical isolation and provision for disabilities.

The new report contains a catalogue of recommendations, including a call for the UK government to review the criteria for benefits aimed at combating fuel poverty and says there should be greater co-operation between Westminster, the Scottish Government, energy companies and others to tackle fuel poverty.

A number of recommendations have been made to tackle illegal money lending. In a strongly worded attack on financial institutions, the MPs claim a "thriving industry" is based on exploiting the poor. And some committee members go further and say the courts should have the power to impose an interest rate cap.

Mohammad Sarwar, chairman of the committee and MP for Glasgow Central, said it was "frightening" how people who borrowed modest sums could find their debt mounting by the combined effect of high interest rates, penalty charges and service charges.

"People who are borrowing a few thousand pounds end up losing their belongings and losing their home," he said. "We are not talking about illegal money lenders here, although that is a problem.

"For so-called legal money lending, how can someone justify that when the bank rate is less than 6 per cent, people will be paying 20 times more, and then end up losing everything?"

Caroline knows only too well the dangers of getting into debt. Last Christmas, eager to please her daughter, and in need of new clothes for the family, she took out a loan with a personal credit company which charged 183.2 per cent APR on loans of up to £500.

Though they borrowed just £1,000, they are having to pay back £3,700 in installments of nearly £200 a month. The loan was, she recalls, a desperate measure, and one she now regrets.

Every month, Caroline and her partner receive about £525 in benefits, made up of disability allowance, incapacity benefits, carer's allowance and child benefit.

Their rent is about £235 a month and telephone charges are £15. But this is small fare compared to the loan repayments.

The family's problems began shortly after Emma was born, when she was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, the chronic inflammatory condition, and osteoporosis. At the time she had three jobs but was forced to give these up, while her partner did the same to care for her full time. The family's budget was torn asunder. Instead of two incomes, they had to rely on the state, a set-up which continues today.

To help relieve her condition, Caroline seldom has her heating off, and her monthly gas and electricity bills amount to about £130. And that is before Emma's special diet is to be taken into account.

The MPs' report also calls for a review of the government's preferred measure of poverty – currently households with less than 60 per cent of the median income.

This relative measure means most of those in poverty no longer live in squalid, Dickensian conditions, but instead have to make difficult choices about basic subjects: feeding themselves and their children; heating their home; or buying Christmas presents for their children.

Caroline, 43, who also has two older daughters, faces stark choices every day. "I struggle to feed myself and keep warm. Mentally, it gets to me. Sometimes I dwell on that, and I think, 'What's the point of living?'" she says. "I often think Emma would be better off if I wasn't here, that she'd get a better standard of life in a home."

At the weekend, her Christmas shopping was done wearing a pair of bedraggled boots, the soles so badly worn away they are lined with plastic carrier bags.

The only presents will be for the children. Caroline and Willie cannot afford to buy one another gifts, while they have asked relatives not for iPods, but food.

Peter Kelly, director of the Poverty Alliance charity, said there should be a wider definition of poverty which shows exactly what a person can live on.

"The 60 per cent threshold doesn't say what is an adequate income to live on in Scotland. By saying what the adequate income is, you can set benefits accordingly.

"Poverty in Scotland is about not being able to afford to pay for school trips for your child... not being able to celebrate Christmas or birthdays without getting into debt. It's an enduring myth that we're all getting richer."

Caroline has no grand solutions to her predicament, but believes little gestures would make a difference – a one-off Christmas payment of about £30, or two school uniform grants instead of one.

She will try to ensure next Tuesday is a day to remember for the right reasons. "Emma will be really happy with the Guinness Book of Records," she said. "You should have seen her face when we got our second-hand tree and she asked to decorate it."

MEASURES OF DEPRIVATION

POVERTY in the UK is usually measured on a relative, rather than an absolute, scale. Absolute poverty is a term often used to refer to a person in the Third World who has insufficient food and shelter, and faces a daily struggle for survival.

Campaigners argue that relative poverty is a more realistic yardstick for the 21st century, comparing general standards of living that have become the norm.

The poverty measure favoured by the UK government, and used by many other bodies worldwide, classifies those with a household income under 60 per cent of median earnings as living in poverty.

This measure is disputed by some, who argue that those living on such an income in reality receive nothing like a "living wage".

Some leading charities believe the definition of poverty should be widened to demonstrate exactly how much a person can live on.

They claim that accurately identifying an adequate minimum level of income is an important step in the fight against poverty. However, this is difficult because the level of income required to meet a family's needs is likely to vary from region to region.

Those living in relative poverty are often excluded from activities such as buying Christmas presents or going on holiday. Once factors such as travel and clothing are taken into account, even low-cost activities, such as visiting the local swimming baths, may be out of reach for many living below the poverty line.



The full article contains 1338 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 December 2007 12:10 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish child poverty
 
1

The Strategist,

18/12/2007 00:18:25
But it's all OK... These people are doing really well.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/business/Financial-services-in-Scotland-still.3598446.jp

and allegedly whilst financial services is making lots of money the rest of us will benefit.

Doesn't seem to quite like that though does it.
2

TommyKaye,

UK 18/12/2007 00:34:27
Poverty 2007 = successive champagne socialist Labour administrations.
3

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 01:25:45
Why don't we shop all the benefit cheats that we know to help the genuine cases?

That works.
4

Kipling,

18/12/2007 01:34:03
One fifth of the scottish people in poverty! Can't the government set up its own 'lending' or 'credit' organisation for those below a certain income and keep the interest rates to an absolute minimum.
5

Don't run greetin to me when you break a leg!,

Falkirk 18/12/2007 01:51:00
#3 I'm with you, but it needs more than a fancy ad campaign , no ifs or buts.
6

Mike Dinsmore,

West o' Aberdeen 18/12/2007 01:51:49
If Donald Trump really wanted to do something for Scotland, he would help people like these. We don't need new golf courses - we need a decent standard of living for everyone.
7

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 02:06:22
Why bother about billions allegedly "cheated" out of the benefit system when we allow billions more to be removed from society by the fat cats of industry and the banking world, all paid salary, bonuses, and share options far in excess of any contribution they make to society?

Bring back supertax! 95% in the pound for all earnings over £100,000 a year.
8

Don't run greetin to me when you break a leg!,

High St Lithgae, in the bookies looking for Alex. 18/12/2007 02:21:51
The Scottish Government needs to stop messing about and get in about the mince of these benefit thiefs.

Yes it will be tough on genuine claimants but its the only way to get the cheats out of the system.

Next time your out have a look at the number of people carrying "surgical" walking sticks, aka "Dole Poles".
Watch them carefully, you will see that most (Not All) have no need for the stick other that to support their fraudulent benefit claim.

So your not physically able to work. If your genuine you will put up with being assessed by a doctor employed by the benefits agency. Once approved you will get all the benefits you are entitled to and deserve. I have no axe to grind there.

However if you are a bit of a hypoCONdriac(sic)you are going to have to be assessed, not by your own comfortable mild mannered GP but by an independant Doctor whose job is to sniff out the cheats.

Not only are the cheats going to think twice about being assessed this way, if they do have the parts to try it on for size, they are going to have a hard time persuading anyone that they have a genuine condition that prevents them from working.

Will some genuine cases get caught in the crossfire, for sure yes. That is a sad fact. In the end though those that deserve will get.

Will this cost a lot of money, Yes, a huge big pile of the stuff, but, the savings in the long run will be far greater and allow those who have genuine need to be looked after properly.

Its time for some tough love.


9

Second Hand,

Malaysia 18/12/2007 02:44:21
I'm sorry. Poverty!!! Sitting on her leather suite watching her flat screen tv.
She took out a loan to please her family last xmas. Well, she knew the rates, she went looking for the loan. Why cant people live within their means. If you don't have it, don't spend it. Real poverty here in Malyasia is if you don't work, you don't eat. Turn the telly off and get a job.
10

TommyKaye,

UK 18/12/2007 02:56:36
Maybe there might be some money left over from these people to help the needy eh Wendy?

Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row
WENDY ALEXANDER, the Scottish Labour leader, faces a new crisis after it emerged that she and senior colleagues have given thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money to a company that helps with campaigns for the party.
Alexander is already under pressure to resign after she admitted receiving an illegal donation for her leadership campaign from Paul Green, a businessman based in Jersey who is not a UK voter.
Now it has emerged that she, along with eight senior colleagues, used parliamentary allowances to pay £5,000 to Computing for Labour (CfL), a company owned by the party and based at its London headquarters. It provides IT services that are offered free by the Scottish parliament.
CfL provides software which helps politicians to organise files on individual constituents.
It is used not only by 13 Labour members of the Scottish parliament (MSPs) but also by 260 Labour MPs and 16 Welsh assembly members. Between them, they pay the organisation an estimated £68,000 a year from their parliamentary allowances.
The money is paid even though similar software has been available free to MSPs of all parties through the Scottish parliament’s IT department since 2003. Westminster politicians said the only other systems available to them had to be paid for.
CfL helps Labour to campaign during elections, designing candidates’ websites and software that allows them to send text messages directly to voters. Its website states that it is “a membership organisation set up to encourage and support the use of computers so that they contribute to achieving the party’s aims”.
Parliamentary authorities prohibit the use of office equipment paid out of allowances to be used for party purposes but have permitted payments to CfL on the grounds that MSPs require support to help to deal with constituents’ problems.
However, a former CfL employee said that i
11

W Smith,

Middle East 18/12/2007 03:30:10
Of course life in Cuba and North Korea is so wonderful not like 'poor' Scotland.

Funny how some folks only want to talk about the salaries in the banking sector.

If Fred Goodwin played for the Old Firm my guess is his salary wouldn't be an issue.

What about the overpaid lazy gits in Scotland's public sector?

Starting with Mr 'two salaries' Salmond who drives to Aviemore in his hybrid Lexus.

What about Mr Connery and Mr Farmer's personal wealth?

Thats not 'obscene' then, eh?

If you think all the champagne socialists are in the Labour Party then you need to pay attention.
12

Pete40,

Tassy 18/12/2007 04:38:12
Well some guy two thousand years ago mentioned that the poor will be with you always. It would maybe help if you discouraged cheap easy credit and slot machines.
13

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 18/12/2007 05:17:07
Why are both of these adults not working? I understand one adult staying at home to look after a child with health problems (even though, if real 'poverty' were present, even that luxury wouldn't be affordable).

The answer is, of course, that both adults can afford to stay at home - courtesy of the working taxpayers of Scotland. Dine on toast she might but without the taxpayers' safety net she'd learn damned quickly that taking out loans when you have no sustainable income is irresponsible in the extreme.

And there you have the root of the whole 'poverty' squawk in Scotland. Our outrageous social security system promotes irresponsibility. Address this first, Mohammad, and you'll be doing more than just spouting off.
14

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 05:32:12
Lifes too easy here for the lazy. Here's an idea?

Why don't we get them working on some public works, like the Pyramids, Myan cities, Terracota warriors, etc etc etc. At least they would be learning a skill, developing a work ethic and we would all benefit from having another tourist site.

Cost - Labour free ( benefits paid fortnightly)
Materials - depends on plans.

We could completely regenerate Glasgow by using the very same people who are brining it down.
15

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 05:34:56
Change of heart.

We should be proud of our poverty.

I'm no working in a capitalist system
16

LaSagesse,

On my Dell. 18/12/2007 05:39:15
This front opening page is lousy. I won't bother reading any more. Do you readers like it?
17

TimW,

Elgin 18/12/2007 06:58:14
Whilst the case of Caroline and her partner is sad - it appears to be written in the 'shock' style, and yet the whole article fails to point out the complete contradictions in the tale.
Leather Sofa, Flat screen telly - it seems to me that there are wrong priorities somewhere. I have neither of those things and certainly do not consider myself to be in poverty! Yes, the daughter does have a debilitating disease, but does that merit BOTH parents giving up their jobs to act as carers? Much as we would like to be able to devote all of our time to our sick offspring, our sense of responsibility to the rest of the family must play a part in the decision making process, and it certainly won't help the little one if her parents become destitute due to having no stable income other than benefits.
18

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 06:59:06
#13 and #17,

Good points. The reporter here definitely should have been more incisive with his questioning. Why exactly does it take 2 able-bodied adults to look after a child with an illness?

These people are obviously in a bad situation but this is partially of their own making. I mean a 280% loan to buy Xmas presents. Neither sensible or necessary.
19

Agent 99,

18/12/2007 06:59:27
[17] 20% of Scottish families are living in relative poverty because that's the way the measure is defined.

If you define a point where poverty starts as being X, then by definition all those below X will be classed as poor. Because of inflation absolute measures of X are meaningless, therefore it's a relative measure; relative to the spread of incomes.

With this banding you are certain of one thing: there will always be the poor. The journalist is either being economical with the truth or just plain cynical.

[16] Yeah, it sucks. And the page hierarchy is rubbish too.
20

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 07:07:54
You can hardly expect those on benefits to watch their wide screen TV from anything other than a leather sofa.

It may be that both of these were bought when they were working, but both of them giving uo their jobs to look after one child, is a bit excessive.

But there you go. If you make giving up work attractive, then they will do it. Why not become a master of benefits and claim substantially more than that.

If you know the system, you can remain pissed in a bar all week, courtesy of yours truly.

Shop a benefit cheat - they are stopping pensioners who have worked their whole life getting heating.

21

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 07:12:40
Gregorf,

Exactly, you would have thought the reporters could have come up with a more deserving case for sympathy than this one. I mean, couldn't they have found a single mother with a disabled child who had to go to a loan shark to borrow money to pay her heating bill?
22

somerferg,

oz 18/12/2007 07:17:08

Memo to W Smith - not too sure why you are slagging off Sir Sean Connery or Tom Farmer or Alex Salmond for that matter all of whom have worked their buts off to improve the lives of all Scots unlike the Layabout Party which over the last 50 years has presided over Scotland reducing a huge number of its people to abject poverty whilst of course lining their own pockets. And to everyone else please remmeber when you are reading this story that these people are living in a country with the largest oil reserves in Europe. Bet you won't find too many stories like this if you look at other European oil producing nations e.g. Norway. Think on, 30 odd years of oil revenue being leached away to float the south east and the great unwashed who live there whilst Scots are treated like second class citizens.
23

Pocket Dictionary,

18/12/2007 07:21:07
#12 He also said be content with what you have and don't chase after materialism.

I think it's in Buddhism that it says, careful for what you wish for, as it will only bring you heartache.
24

enmuffins,

carlsbad 18/12/2007 07:31:13
Who is the sick one, Emma or Caroline? I cant imagine that the child has osteoporosis but maybe I'm wrong.
25

Iain fae Elgin,

London 18/12/2007 07:42:26
Leather sofa, flat screen telly?

The did have jobs before. People who are poor are allowed to have posessions. If you must crtisise, do it in the right areas.
26

Itchy,

18/12/2007 07:46:04
#7 "Bring back supertax! 95% in the pound for all earnings over £100,000 a year."

This socialist drivel is precisely what is wrong with Scotland and is why so many are trapped in poverty.

Message to you: Socialism failed many times throughout the 20th century and is still failing today.
27

malhombre,

Spain 18/12/2007 07:48:54
Poverty? I really wish that people would stop using that word when talking about poor people. There is no poverty in the UK! Desperately poor people yes,people who cannot cope yes.But they are not poverty stricken in the true sense of the word.
If you want to see poverty you need to travel the world. I could list so many countries where there is true poverty and Scotland and the UK as whole are not on that list.
I have seen poverty and it is not pretty, Darfur is poverty, Zimbabwe is poverty, half of Africa is poverty, two thirds of the Indian sub continent are poverty. I have seen poverty in the oil rich Gulf states.
A sense of perspective needs to come in here I think.
28

Ed_Izmir,

Bostanli 18/12/2007 07:53:13
So it's not poverty at all is it? It is significant spread in income levels. That's not a surprise. For me this article is more revealing about how those earning at 60% or less of the average choose to spend their money.
29

mina,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 07:53:19
I have every sympathy with families who are struggling with finances, especially at this time of year.
Unfortunately desperate people accept appalling rates of interest on loans, because they cannot obtain credit any were else.
I will not judge this family, it is stated that they both worked until their 3rd child was born, who was diagnosed with Chrohn's and Osteoporosis, both difficult to deal with.
I feel certain more could have been said by the couple to allow us to understand their plight.
What ever some people think, there are families out there who are having a miserable time.
#22
I find your remark a perfect example of ignorance to the very real miserable, frightening existence of many.
30

enmuffins,

carlsbad 18/12/2007 07:58:05
Who is the sick one, the mother or child? I didnt think children had osteoporosis.
31

mina,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 08:04:18
#30
Sorry,I meant to write about the mother developing those diseases.
32

Mrs Mills,

Livingston 18/12/2007 08:11:20
Very interesting, but was an advertisement for Diamonds in the middle of an article on poverty warranted?
33

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 18/12/2007 08:23:31
There are several Polish girls cleaning and ironing around here for £8 per hour and their male friends are cleaning windows @ £15 per house.
Get off yer butts and stop whingeing!
PS, what are the odds on the poor 20% smoking and drinking, which would be, what £10 per day-£300 per month?
34

Scotish Exile,

Far away from home 18/12/2007 08:30:05
Poverty is relative, there will always be the "rich" and the "poor", its a fact of life. Get up off your lazy behinds and work and earn money and live within your means, why should the state subsidise you??
35

Boswall,

18/12/2007 08:30:52
#1

What's your point? There's a quarter million skint folk in Scotland therefore no one should be allowed to be successful of the back of their own hard work?

Hows about we just shut down the loan sharks and you lay off one of the few successful elements of the Scottish economy.
36

SimonW,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 08:36:50
#21 Gregorf
#13 John Blackley

The mother is sick, not the child. That's why she gave up work and the father gave up work to look after her.

Jeez, there are some horrible mean spirited souls around this place.

Makes you proud to be Scots.............not.
37

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 08:40:20
Get a freaking job you lazy buggers!
38

sceptic,

18/12/2007 08:44:12
"For so-called legal money lending, how can someone justify that when the bank rate is less than 6 per cent, people will be paying 20 times more, and then end up losing everything?"
Easily justified because nobody else would be daft enough to give them a loan on any terms.
39

Logie Almond,

18/12/2007 08:58:12
Pure arithmetic dictates that you will never eradicate poverty as long as it is defined as "those with a household income under 60per cent of median earnings as living in poverty."
40

subrosa,

18/12/2007 09:02:25
I've had Crohn's disease for years and worked. There is a lot of support out there and her doctor should have given her the relevant information.

Also something wrong with the maths here. A benefits income of £525 for two adults, one young child and two older children should qualify for a total rent and community charge rebate.

Whilst I sympathise with anyone without money I have to say I'm sure many of my generation have often done without to ensure our children are looked after. It was the 'done' thing in days gone by and we just had to live within our means as there were no safety nets then.

41

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:07:16
38

We could get our banks to create a subprime market for people unfortunate as this. Then again, given the number of people in this unfortunate position, it would in all liklihood bring down the loans market.

I think 21 and 13 made a genuine mistake, although the mean spirited people are those who take the benefits without being entitled to them, and develop the benefits lifestyle at the expense of genuine cases such as above.

Shop a benefits cheat today and give genuine cases, especially the old who have contributed their whole lives to the system, the money they need.

On a lighter note, nice to see we have plenty of knives on the streets.

Not looking forward to coming back to Scotland this Christmas because:

1 The poverty
2. The violence
3. The political corruption
4. The diet

So Iam going to stay in Sierra Leone
3.
42

Anne,

18/12/2007 09:10:51
Daughter's acquaintance, unmarried mother of a five year old, manages very nicely, thank you.
In order to get as much money through working as she gets sitting on her backside, a job would need to pay £16000 a year.
Her qualifications are ziltch - any guesses as to when she will join the workforce/
43

inoui,

Bordeaux 18/12/2007 09:15:55
Hardly news, exists every year and every day, but nothing has changed regardless of politics.
44

Red Tower,

Dunoon 18/12/2007 09:16:56
Whilst I agree with some of the criticism of this family I think it avoids a concomitant point. That is that the gap between rich and poor has widened considerably under Labour administrations both here and at Westminster. This suggests that the issue of spreading wealth, a policy that historically has been a raison d'etre for the party's existence, has not only not been addressed but that the reverse has been allowed to happen.
Labour should of course be condemned and it should be hounded from office. However does anyone honestly believe that a Tory government would spread wealth more evenly.
If we want a government that matches action with expressions of concern on issues such as this then you start by reforming the electoral system.
45

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:17:23
22 or

the pensioner who worked their whole life paying into the system, only to get nothing out of it to the extent that they freeze over the winter because all the cash is going to benefit cheats.

The above case is terrible and I think many people misread the article in that they thought the child was ill. There are worse and lots of them.

Its the old that can't heat their homes that really gets my goat. Having watched OAP's get turned down for central heating because they come from an age of honesty, and then watched a lifestyle benefits guru get another check for his household goods that were 'stolen' again, makes me sick.

Shop a benefits cheat today and save the life of a OAP today
46

thinking,

Scotland 18/12/2007 09:18:14
'a leather sofa, a widescreen television'
It depends what you call poverty.
I don't have either of the above but I have food to eat and a roof over my head (rented) and, more importantly family and friends.
My grandchildren have a few small presents often bought at charity shops or in sales.
Lavish presents don't make Christmas.
Ask most people about their favourite Christmases and they usually remember doing things together with family and friends, most don't remember the presents they had.
47

Ken,

18/12/2007 09:23:23
This is NOT poverty. Go to Africa to see that!
This woman is not uncommon, to me she is a sponger. I bet she never paid for the sofa and wide screen tv, and if she did then she should be ashamed. There is very little difference between a single mums handouts and an average wage earner. What do these people want. A life of leisure! Go and get a job!
48

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:25:45
43

The answer is never. Thats because we encourage this sort of thing. Get laid at 16 = free house and 16k a year.

The career adviser probably got paid by the last administration for dishing out the advice.
49

Stevec010,

ayrshire 18/12/2007 09:30:23
Partial solution to this persons high fuel bill. go to work. cut down on daytime rumpy pumpy. make a effort to put money into the pot, rather that take take take.
50

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 09:33:39
Thats the problem though when you live in a poverty laced country.

It reaches the point where there is no point working, you claim benefits and things get worse socially. The workers leave because they are fed up paying for others who choose not to work, the population falls and we lose the people who could make a difference and then we have to recruit people from other places to do the jobs that own won't do - because its better paid doing nothing.

Thankfully we can attract people to Scotland to work, because lets face it, the indigenous population is not only soft in the head, they are also weak on the work front.

I used to vote for independence but lets face it, there are too many oiks in Scotland who think the world owes them a living.

I ain't going to pay for them to sit in their houses, smoke dope, drink and watch TV.

Shop a benefits cheat today

51

Ken,

18/12/2007 09:48:48
Ian Paisley, 'used to vote for independence'!Dont recollect ever having a referendum on that one :-)
I wonder if people vote for the tories, labour or the liberals they are really only voting not to be independent. Anyhow, apart from that , I sadly agree with most of your comments, however england/wales etc also have many spongers too, and people who earn far too much.
There is not a rich poor divide, there is 'an average wage earner' and 'rich' devide. The real workers like nurses, ambulance staff earn around the national average, and they are doing more and more, while GP's for example are doing less and less, but (I'll not use the term earn) are given far, far too much.
52

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 10:03:36
54 :-)

Your right Ken, it was a dream I had. I looked out of my Gulag window and wondered what democracy was like.

I got a letter from a penpal, Wendy Alexander, who often dreamed of a 'socialist ideal', people in poverty, knife crime, largesse civil base, who said that letting people decide their own destiny was against all political norms - it was against the 'party'.

My mother suggested to the Gulag commandant, that he change the menu as we were getting bored eating cabbage and milk, and that everyone agreed with her. We needed change and she wanted to put this to the vote.

It was a quick death by firing squad and we all remained poor with other people making decisions for us. We believed they knew better, but they didn't. Our opinions did not exist in the Gulag.
53

AbandonAllHope,

18/12/2007 10:05:06
Well thats it, i'm sick of this paper and sick of the snobbish mindless comments delivered by the commentators. 'get a job' 'lazy b8stards' etc etc, it truly reflects Edinburgh, a nasty, bitter city.
54

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

18/12/2007 10:08:40
Off to catch that China Glasgow flight. Back in time for that famous Wednesday Glasgow crack.

Any tips on staying alive when I touch down?

I know to avoid the food, shellsuit wearing types, those with bigoted tattoos and those high on the 'welfare dope smoking life watching plasma screens' drunk types.

But apart from the obvious?

Oh yeah forgot one. Don't visit your granny as you may find her dead due to the cold and her inability to afford heating because the dolies are scamming the workers contributions to the welfare state.
55

Flash67,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 10:18:37
#58.... um, in case you hadn't noticed, the Scotsman is a NATIONAL paper, not a local one.
Mindless comments like 'Edinburgh is a nasty, bitter city' ??
I'm an ex-weegie, and I saw a heck of a lot more 'bitterness' in the West of Scotland than I do in Edinburgh... and most of the reactionary, racist, sectarian comments I hear these days come from - you've guessed it - west coast 'schemies' .... (I grew up in an Inverclyde council house scheme myself, but escaped my 'poverty', and more importantly, the bigotry, xenophobia, and the 'it's society's fault' culture that many people have there....
56

Maurice,

Fife 18/12/2007 10:20:50
Leather sofa, Xmas decorations , wide screen TV, £4 for games and £18 for a book??? Poverty?
Who calls this poverty. Anyone that does needs to open thier eyes to the world a bit. Statistically this lady described falls within the richest 20% of the worlds population. When I left Africa just over 3 years ago i could have pointed out hundreds of people living nearby to me that earned less in a year (literally) than just the £24 mentioned. Time to wake up and smell the cof.... Sorry couldnt affoerd it. Acorn tea instead
57

Ken,

18/12/2007 10:37:29
#58,
Judging by the usual comments 'we' are all sick of this paper. Still this forum is just fine!
I do not live in Edinburgh. I live in Aberfeldy where the gulf between average income and far too large is very obvious. I have not seen any poverty, however.
I think it is all about priorities. This female and her family have the best of furniture and tv's, yet claims to only be able to afford cheap presents for her kids. Maybe she should not have spent all that money on the tv etc, if indeed she did, and it was not 'us' who paid for it.
Why do I say this! I have two jobs, my wife one. We have two young children, we have a really large mortgage. We do not have a huge tv, go on expensive holidays, have a leather sofa etc.... We prioritise our income to cover 1. The mortgage, 2. the bills 3. food, 4. keeping my car on the road (very bad bus service here), 5.clothes, 6. others things etc...
Not much left after that. I sometime think that I could have just gone on the council housing list years ago. I would not have a nice house, low rent, no worries!! Still, not complaining, it is just these sort of winging stories really gets me annoyed.
58

Mcsnagpile,

18/12/2007 10:52:16
The psychology of this article and the comments are old enough to be in Maw Broon’s Cookbook. So many political criminals have used the word socialism over the years that it has become a joke word, Examples, (Stalin, Hitler, Mao.) The word usually means you are going to suffer for the common good. Long marches, concentration camps, class cleansing. Social benefits are an expensive sop. All human beings want to belong,have dignity, and should have the opportunity to contribute to society.

After a year of lying, stealing, cheating, standing on fingers,, making everyone’s life a misery, are you now going to cry for a few days over a wee lassie that froze to death because she ran out of matches?
59

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 11:12:02
This really is rubbish reporting and Alan the Editor should have scrawled "Do Again" on it and made these two idle hacks miss the Scotsman Christmas Party.

Not at all clear which person from the household is suffering from what. In any case, daughter Emma at aged 10 will be at school most of the time so that really means that Willie has decided to be a full time carer for Caroline - someone who is not actually housebound since she manages to go Christmas shopping in the boots with plastic bags inside. The list of benefits they are receiving excludes Housing Benefit for some reason (the rent would appear to be about average for Edinburgh council housing) so maybe they don't qualify or just forgot to mention it.

If they are currently making loan repayments of just under £200 towards last year's stupidly taken out loan then presumably they could have easily put around £100 per month away towards Christmas/clothes/holidays/whatever instead of getting a loan in the first place. The more you look at this story, the more you see that they are where they are because of bad decisions they have made and not because the welfare state has let them down.

I wonder if Martyn and Tanya noticed Tiny Tim's crutches leaning against the wide screen telly ?


60

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 11:13:20
The family Christmas described for Caroline, Willie and Emma sounds just like the ones I enjoyed as a child - modest presents, carefully bought. Caroline and Willie have to watch the pennies and make choices. So did we. But what is described is not poverty, or anything like it.
61

subrosa,

18/12/2007 11:25:53
#59
62

sahsa,

18/12/2007 11:33:34
I totally agree with you no.4. this is someone who is talking sense for a change.
63

,

18/12/2007 11:41:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

subrosa,

18/12/2007 11:49:45
#59
65

subrosa,

18/12/2007 11:50:29
#59 Ooops I meant to say Happy Trip and watch out for the 'Welcome to Scotland' sign at the airport :)
66

Ken,

18/12/2007 12:09:59
Caroline should sell her wide screen tv (must be at least £500 worth) could get enough from that, maybe £200 to get a small second hand CRT TV (£50) and still have enough for £150 worth of gifts! and maybe a pair of new boots.
67

The Pragmatist,

18/12/2007 12:10:35
What a disgrace. Why don't they sell their tv and buy a cheap black and white? why don't they sell their leather sofa and buy a couple of cheaper chairs? do they smoke and drink? bet they never eat fruit and vegetables. bet they have laminate flooring. The tax payer pays for these illiterate scroungers.
68

Darren, Edinburgh,

18/12/2007 12:30:27
I am genuinely sorry for those that find themselves in this position through no fault of their own, however, people have to help themselves too. £18 for the Guiness Book of Records? Unless this is the reporter making up some of the story, a number of stores were selling the book for half that price.
69

Meep,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 12:37:02
What a load of old rubbish. This article omits several of the additional benefits that the family will be receiving (including housing benefit which SHOULD pay their rent, but which, because it is not always paid direct to landlords, many claimants choose to spend on alcohol and Nintendo games).

Look to countries like the new members of the EU to see actual poverty in action.
70

Publius,

London 18/12/2007 12:40:50
Interest of 183.2 per cent. This is difficult to believe. Is this legal? Is it a misprint? If it legal, it should be made illegal.
#56 The Genuine Mario Antoinette and some others. You are wrong. Of course self-reliance is a good thing, but individuals do fall by the wayside. We do not have enough information in the article to tell whether Caroline Mockford's problems are self-inflicted. And even if they are society (the state) ought to care for the children.
Perhaps we need 'tough love' or automatic ending of benefits after so many months or years. But we do not have information to know whether tough love would help in this instance.
71

Allan(handofgod137),

18/12/2007 12:48:27
Ah,the bleeding hearts and hand wringers are out in force today. This is the consequence of the socialist policys that Scotland has followed for so many years, despite seeing their failure elsewhere.
72

Kipling,

18/12/2007 12:57:20
It's true. It does look a faked story or at least not the best example for a story on poverty. There is no history line. At one point Caroline has had 3 jobs. But if things went wrong after Emma was born, that was some 9 years ago. Perhaps they had savings. The leather settee might be an old one. The widescreen tv might have been a gift. Like many members of the population she is not able to make the right financial decisions. The focus of the story I thought was on the fact that they were forced to make decisions which allowed a sufferable life, with money to spend on small luxuries at Christmas, but only by foregoing necessities that many people take for granted (ie, getting a new pair of boots, having a properly nutritious meal, etc.). Maybe they're trying not to access all the benefits they are allowed ? Who knows? There should have been a table of incomings/outgoings to enable readers properly to evaluate their circumstances.

It seems more a story to do with falling on hard times and how people cope with that.
73

Meep,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:03:23
Nope, Kipling. I reckon it's a lobbying peace about how insufficient the ridiculously generous benefits system is.
74

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:26:25
Here's a link to an article in the chicago tribune by a guy called John Scalzi. It references a lot of American things, but by god it applies to life here as well. maybe something to think about for those posters who appear to believe poor people are poor on purpose and that punishing them for being poor will force them to become wealthy.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0509150091sep15,1,3209937.story?page=3&ctrack=1&cset=true&coll=chi-news-hed
75

clark_scot1313,

MI.u.s.a. 18/12/2007 13:27:29
I grew up in poverty in the kirkgate back in the 40 to 50's, my mother worked every day of here life,dad was never around, if it was not for the free school lunches at DK. i would have been hungry, i see not much has changed in 40yrs
76

Neil, Texas,

Austin 18/12/2007 13:27:40
This article is very badly researched and written (the author needs to learn how to write a paragraph). I have re read it and I am still unclear who is ill, the mother or the child?

With regard to having sympathy for the financial predicament they are in, I have none. Why for example is it necessary to have the latest in technology with regard to thei television. They could have aquired a decent second hand TV very cheaply and not taken out the loan in the first place.

As previous posters have stated the conduct of the interview was poor and the questions that should have been asked were not. The Scotsman, yet again, maintains the standard of journalism that we have all come to expect.
77

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:29:05
Oops, I'll try posting that link again with appropriate linefeeds.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion
/chi-0509150091sep15,1,3209937.story?
page=3&ctrack=1&cset=true&coll=chi-news-hed


78

clark_scot1313,

caro 18/12/2007 13:30:35
*Please enter your comment*
79

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:37:17
86, IainA, I can't get anywhere with your link. But Caroline, Willie and Emma, the people in the article, don't seem to me to be poor in any meaningful sense. They have to watch the pennies and make choices, that's all.
80

Memyself&I,

18/12/2007 13:49:46
#85 (and others.
You claim it was very badly researched. Quite a contradiction coming from you - judging by your post alone.

Has anyone actually read this article? I suggest people read over it again before posting.

Its a widescreen TV, not a plasma screen or LCD. Do you know the difference? Its not the latest technology!! Its old.
As one poster has already pointed out, both parents did work, its entirely feasible that they bought the tv/sofa years ago. Besides that, there is no mention as to the condition of the sofa. Could be tatty as hell. I dunno,..but neither do you.
What I do know is that its ubnlikely that someone walking around with plastic bags in their shoes to stop their feet getting wet has not just splashed out on a fancy tv and sofa.
The loan was for clothes / food for the family.


Not poverty? Then please tell me what is, or perhpas read the article again for the definition (in the UK).

If you want to complain about the standard of journalism then take that to another thread. Or email the ed.
81

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 13:56:05
91, poverty is not having adequate basic food, clothing, heating and shelter.

Would you really call a net income of £525 a month "poverty"?
82

Memyself&I,

18/12/2007 13:57:24
#92.
Clearly you didn't read the article, I'll help you:

POVERTY in the UK is usually measured on a relative, rather than an absolute, scale. Absolute poverty is a term often used to refer to a person in the Third World who has insufficient food and shelter, and faces a daily struggle for survival.

Campaigners argue that relative poverty is a more realistic yardstick for the 21st century, comparing general standards of living that have become the norm.
83

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 14:00:50
93, that's a ridiculous definition. As I say, poverty is not having adequate basic food, clothing, heating and shelter. By no stretch of the imagination are the family described in the article in "poverty" in any meaningful sense that would be understood by those who are *really* in poverty - in other words, cold, hungry and homeless.
84

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 14:04:57
93, just to make it plain, would you say that the Queen is in relative poverty compared to Bill Gates?

If you take "relative" poverty as your definition, you'd have to.

The family described live a life that sounds rather like the one my own family had. We had to be careful, we didn't have much to spare, but we weren't "in poverty".
85

Whats the script?,

The Grotto 18/12/2007 14:05:47
sorry no sympathy here, she eats toast for dinner but splashes £18 on a book?! Priorities a bit skewed?
86

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 14:17:19
#88 Urban Guerrila

try this link, it's Scalzi's own website

http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003704.html

87

Ken,

18/12/2007 14:18:08
#94, I agree. Some nutty social worker type came up with a definition earlier this year. Cant remember word perfect but actually stated that if you could not afford a family holiday abroad every year, Geeze, that must be me then!
As said, the term is RELATIVE POVERTY. Not to be confuseed with 'REAL POVERTY'. Maybe it should be renamed 'HAVE TO MAKE PRIORITES WITH ADEQUATE INCOME LEVELS.
88

Ken,

18/12/2007 14:20:00
#96,
Really, have you seen the price of bread recently! She could have got 4 mars bars instead and given all the family one, AND had a spare one for later.
89

Memyself&I,

18/12/2007 14:31:05
#94, Clearly there are exceptions to the rules.
However, we do agree in part. I don't like that way of measuring poverty either. The only reason I posted that quote was to put the article into context.
This woman and her family are being measured against what is the norm in Scotland. It is not the norm to eat a slice of toast for your dinner for two weeks and neither is it to wear plastic bags on your feet to keep the rain out.
In the UK, that is poverty. (I'll repeat it,..in the UK).

Its certainly not how I'd want to live my life. Must be a pretty miserable existence to say the very least.

Most of the negative comments on here are loosely based on the assumptions that the woman and her husband are workshy scroungers despite the article clearly telling us they gave up work to become carers (for whom exactly is debateable!).

90

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 14:36:01
#95 urban guerilla

If you compare a poor person in the Uk to a poor person in a third world country then they aren't poor. If however you compare things in the way, for example, you might compare your salary to your bosses or even his boss. Then they are poor. They aren't starving, but they aren't able to, for example, smoke, or go out for a drink any time they feel like it and as for going out for a meal or a family visit to the movies, forget it.

I magine designer labels don't make an appearance in the house either - and you know what kids are like for the latest expensive trainers/clothes/toys whatever. And it's unlikely that a Personal Computer will make an appearance in the family home any time soon either.

You may say that these things are trivial, but they're only trivial because we've not had to do without them.The things that we, as relatively prosperous people take for granted as staples, people in poverty regard as expensive luxuries.

It doesn't even have to be at that high a level of expenditure, who would buy fabric conditioner for when they're washing their clothes when that might mean being able to buy extra food?
91

okanaganguy,

kelowna,b.c. canada 18/12/2007 14:41:42
#53. Don't feel badly. I have one also but i just feel cheap.But i don't have a Guinees Book of Records though. Government should pass laws, if they do not exist already, to limit the amount of interest a lender can charge on a loan. I think that it is criminal to lend someone 1000 when their income can't even cover their normal living expenses.Perhaps {partner} should be made to go out and get a job or show just cause why He can't work. regards
92

Ken,

18/12/2007 14:58:12
#103,
You comments are exactly what this social worker type stated this year. I don't think that I have ever wore a designer label, I do not feel poor!
My whole childhood I never wore the latest trendy things (a collared shirt, cords! and shoes that were leather imitation. Did I like it - no not really, but my parents, who were not poor, but average had priorities. That is why I am a frugal 42 year old, who has tried to save all his life, managed to get jobs a mortgage a wife and two kids. Anything that I have is because I worked for it.
If this story is real, I hope that the 10 year old does not read this article (I know, unlikely) as even the little she gets will be ruined.
93

joppa jock,

18/12/2007 14:59:26
What a load of smart alecs we have today. Not much sympathy in their miserable hearts. I have an adult son who has learning difficulties and who has lived his entire life in a wheelchair. My wife had a stroke a couple of years ago, brought on with the stress and strain of years of caring, but because we are both pensioners no carer's allowance is payable to us. By all means shop the benefit cheats as well as the ones who use their granny's blue disabled badge. Perhaps benefits might then find their way to the genuinely disabled.
94

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 15:03:47
103, I was going to reply, but really Ken (106) has said it all for me. Life is all about priorities and choices, and often we can't do the things we'd like to do. I'm not saying that I don't have sympathy for Caroline, Willie and Emma, but - as I say - they don't seem much different from my own family, and we didn't think of ourselves as poor. We just had to be careful.
95

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 15:03:58
103, I was going to reply, but really Ken (106) has said it all for me. Life is all about priorities and choices, and often we can't do the things we'd like to do. I'm not saying that I don't have sympathy for Caroline, Willie and Emma, but - as I say - they don't seem much different from my own family, and we didn't think of ourselves as poor. We just had to be careful.
96

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 15:07:15
#106

Neither did I - In fact I still don't, I think they're a ludicrously overpriced scam. The point is, that I could if I wanted.

We are roughly the same age, which means we grew up before trendy gear became a social necessity for children . A lot of us were skint but not poor. Poor is when you're skint and everybody else isn't.
97

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 18/12/2007 15:09:36
Why doesn't the lady Patent her Poly Bag shoe liner idea and take it to the Dragons den, I'm sure they would help finance her enterprising idea and one day soon we could all be walking around in poly bag shoes.

God i wish i'd thought of that!!!
98

IainA,

Edinburgh 18/12/2007 15:15:16
#109 Urban Guerrila

It's interesting that I find myself on the side of sociologists, not to mention rather frightening, it isn't a place I find myself often.

I do think that the perception of poverty is a major contributor to poverty. In my reply to #106 Ken, I made the point that when nobody has any money then nobody is poor, but when you haven't any money and everybody else has, you're poor.
99

Kipling,

@'caresoftie'advicecentre 18/12/2007 15:27:09
Surely it's unlikely if the lady has talked about her case that she's a benefit cheat. And as to selling her television, they obviously don't have the money or perhaps talent to indulge in other leisure-time activities, like learning to play the bagpipes. I see no mention of a computer. Kids don't always value 2nd-hand goods, and kids at school who don't have anything are psychologically bullied by other 'haves' (esp. with clothes like trainers of a specific model). Instead of questioning their integrity, why not suggest ways of overcoming their situation.

If Caroline had three jobs, what were they? physical? office? Is there a type of job both of them can do from home? (Although much home work for women is slave wages). Why doesn't the government think big about work for home-bound individuals? Can there not be something which allows people to get a step on the ladder again, much like the function a first year tax allowance for small businesses would have? So there's a weening off benefit period once work is found and an advice system which 'takes over' the budgeting until a specific 'you can now manage on your own' level is reached. I have read about people phoning debt help lines and finding these of great help in learning how to pay back & restrict future debt likelihood again.
100

Kipling,

18/12/2007 15:28:14
#111. The opposite of galoshes, eh?
101

Kipling,

@'caresoftie'advicecentre 18/12/2007 15:33:08
--continuing--
Debt help lines are voluntary-aided though. In this case it would be a government service which, fair enough, would cost the taxpayer but with a view to future benefit. Perhaps even any 'extra' balancing benefit the household/individual or family has in getting them back into work can be paid back at no interest once they have a reasonable income. Like student loans down south.
102

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 18/12/2007 15:34:01
#114. It just keeps getting better! You Genius! A whole range of poly bag clothing is now on the drawing board. not only is it a recyclers dream come true it's a fantastic advertising opportunity for some major supermarket chains.I can see riches beyond my wildest dreams. I'd better keep this quiet...
103

TSynicto the core,

Bellshill 18/12/2007 15:34:04
Grandparent's heating allowances pay for many a child's Christmas present. If we really were 'the world's fourth richest economy'this situation wouldn't arise.
104

joppa jock,

18/12/2007 15:34:42
I always knew Scotland had her fair share of eejits but I hadn't realised they all wrote in the Scotsman.
105

TSynicto the core,

Bellshill 18/12/2007 15:43:05
Many a child's Christmas present has been paid for out of their grandparent's heating allowance. If we really were the world's fourth richest economy this situation wouldn't arise.
106

TSynicto the core,

Bellshill 18/12/2007 15:43:17
Many a child's Christmas present has been paid for out of their grandparent's heating allowance. If we really were the world's fourth richest economy this situation wouldn't arise.
107

Kipling,

18/12/2007 15:43:57
#117. ChopperChock. Release the chock and away you fly! There's a new exciting function for these forums on the horizon, of dreaming up new business ideas! revising & revitalising government policies! If you wanna sta' in a poll station, whirl your rotors & off you go!
108

golf nut.,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 15:59:41
WOULD THE CREDIT COMPANY BY ANY CHANCE BE THE PROVIDENT WHO PLAY ON PEOPLES IGNORANCE OF WHAT EXACTLY APR MEANS IN RE-PAYMENT TERMS. A COMPANY WHOSE RESPECTABILITY HAS BEEN REPLACED BY TARGETS AND PROFITS.
109

Memyself&I,

18/12/2007 16:04:59
#117, they were always here Jock, the hardest part is ignoring them.
110

Memyself&I,

18/12/2007 16:11:16
#119 WHAT? WHY THE CAPS LOCK? WHATS ALL THE SHOUTING?

There now, thats better. Most of these companies never had any respectability. All this rubbish advertising on daytime tv. New businesses appear to spring up every week.
Still 182%, that must be a record.
111

Kipling,

18/12/2007 16:26:33
#121. Not by Joan Arm&trading, by any chance? Solved by Dropping the Pilot, away with these fat cats?
112

mina,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 16:57:20
#119
I have just been on the Provident website, the APR is 183.2%
113

Sambo,

The deep south 18/12/2007 18:42:20
The way I read the article it was Caroline who had the illnesses.
In any case it is tragic that so many Scots are living in poverty, I believe that many are sponging off the system. Until people realize that they must educate themselves, poverty will exist and their offspring will run wild in the streets.
114

Country Lass,

Rural PH 18/12/2007 18:45:53
I'm confused - one paragraph states

"Caroline seldom has her heating off"

Then we get
"I struggle to feed myself and keep warm" Eh?!

Also agree with others who have asked why both adults needed to give up work...

PLUS a grand for Christmas Pressies??!!! Why do folk spend waaay beyond their means? Or am I just stingy spending max of 30 quid (and that is also from my hubby!) per person!

The only good thing coming from this article is that it highlights the fact that money does not grow on trees and if folk are daft enough to take out a loan that they will find hard to re-pay, OF COURSE they will have to scrimp to make the re-payments - that applies if the loan is from a bank or a loan shark!
115

snoozyowl,

Wales 18/12/2007 18:58:58
The trouble with defining poverty as 60% of median income is that there will always be poverty as long as there are any differences in income. For once I agree with the proponents of a fixed amount for each family configuration below which people would be deemed to be poor. Maybe then that amount could be compared with the minimum wage, and the likely huge difference paid automatically to bring up everyone below the median to median level (before the adjustment, obviously). A minimum wage of about £8.50 per hour would seem to be about right for a single person with a child. Just imagine the howls of protest if employers were stuck with having to pay people enough to live on!! Poor things would lose soem of their profits. So of course we will all pay via vastly more generous tax credits. We do need to take this matter seriously and stop worrying about leather settees and flat screens. It would only cost another 5p on income tax to resolve this matter once and for all. What's more, by increasing taxes, the income curve would get flatter and move the median downwards, also reducing poverty - as currently defined.
116

Itchy,

Lochgelly 18/12/2007 19:00:11
#45 "Labour administrations both here and at Westminster. This suggests that the issue of spreading wealth"

Labour has done nothing but tax and spend since they came to power. Socialism is not the answer to poverty and never will be.
117

LiamP,

18/12/2007 19:15:02
Good point
118

Bluey,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 19:50:13
I was shocked at the low level of benefits payable to a disabled woman and her partner on incapacity benefit(cited at £525 per month). Now that I've tallied it up on a benefits calculator, I don't believe it and side with those who are critical about the research that went into this article and the veracity of the information.

If both adults are on the lowest rates available in the categories of benefit they are claiming and the age related and length of claiming top-ups are ignored, the lowest figure I could identify is £560 for a 4 week period so the absolute minimum they are eligible for is higher and realistically, it is likely to be higher.

carer's allowance (lower rate) £29.05, disability allowance (lower rate) £17.10, incapacity benefit (lowest short-term rate excluding any age related top-ups) (37.90 x2), child benefit £18.10 = £560.

Have a look at the benefits calculator on the Glasgow council website - I struggled to get a figure for a couple with 1 child that paid out less than £156.68 per week (£679 per calendar month) and that was excluding all disability and carer allowances.

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/GettingAdvice/WelfareRights/Benefits/Calculators/BenefitsCalculator.htm
119

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/12/2007 20:01:58
Shocking. Absolutely shocking. This is Scotland, 2007?!
There is a gulf between a mere country and a society. The dominance of hero-worshipping males who desperately seek alpha males to which to kowtow, has led to an appallingly shallow country in which cardboard celebrities propped up by equally brainless media moguls, earn vast sums, confident in their ability to maintain the brainwashed state of a gullible, poorly educated public. A country in which caring and sharing is scorned and scoffed at. Furthermore if Scotland is going to be independent it will have an expanded state sector, with the need for many new civil servants to be paid. A huge civil service + one fifth of the population living in poverty = disaster.
120

Miss H,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 20:12:47
I have to say I am really struggling to understand the vicousness of some of these comments.

The story is not all that clearly written but having gone over it a couple of times the situation is that both these parents worked until their daughter Emma was diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease and osteoparosis. That means that as well as suffering from inflammation she has brittle bones, so we are talking about a very fragile little girl.

That is why her mother struggles to keep the home warm, which is essential for a child in a frail state of health - if she got pneumonia she could die - and buy the calcium-rich food her daughter needs.

For those who say that the parents should not have given up work to care for their child – well that’s easier said than done. In a situation like that the parents will come under a great deal of pressure to take responsibility for their child’s care. The reason for that is quite simple – money. It would cost a great deal more for the local authority to provide a care package for Emma than it does in benefits which allow her parents to stay at home and provide the care. Of course the consequence of that is the family has a greatly reduced income.

What this story highlights very well I think is the dreadful position of carers in our society and it also highlights the reason for that – the fact that too many people don’t care. In fact some of you actually blame them for their situation.

I just hope none of you people who are slagging off this couple have family members who become seriously ill, for their sakes.
121

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 18/12/2007 20:15:14
Unhappily there are now many Brits who ape the many AmerUSAn twerps to whom all socialism = centrally planned communism. No doubt a symptom of centrally planned capitalist media. If our country is to become a society we must care about each other. Is this difficult? No! Supporting local products is a good start. However, beyond this, religion has collapsed and with it the charitable donations that flowed through the churches to the poor. We need to start a humanist support network/organisation that will allow us as Scots to help each other at the grassroots level - i.e. we need to be able lend help to those in need who are living just round the corner. A society that pulls together is a strong society, and a strong society builds a strong creative country, because its children receive adequate shelter, clothing, nutrition, education, and stimulation. If you have already bought expensive presents for your own family this Christmas, why not buy one really good present for a needy child? In fact, each Scots family should make this a tradition at Christmas: giving a really first class present to someone who truly needs it.
122

Mary Jane Pike,

Arlington, TN 18/12/2007 20:30:45
Instead of feeling sorry for themselves, sell the t.v. and the leather couch, then get off their behinds and get jobs (at least one of them needs to get a job). The good Lord helps those who help themselves and most people are willing to help someone if they see that person is trying to help themself.
123

DesertRatNM,

NM USA 18/12/2007 20:38:38
If you magically divided up all of the money evenly between people this minute, in a year those who are rich would be rich again and those who are poor would be poor again. Poor education, dysfunctional families, and plain laziness would redistribute the wealth pretty much as it is today.
124

Miss H,

18/12/2007 20:54:27
This is actually quite interesting.

I wonder if I could ask our American visitors to tell us what kind of system operates in the States.

What happens if a child or other family member requires care? In the UK their carers - usually other family members - will be paid benefits for caring as well as the benefits that the diabled or sick person is entitled to.

What happens in the States? Do sick and disabled people just get put in an institution?

Don't you realise that is actually more expensive than supporting people to care for them at home, even if we greatly increased the benefits available to carers?
125

Kipling,

18/12/2007 21:44:26
testing
126

Kipling,

18/12/2007 21:46:30
The problem lies in paragraphs 20/21:
127

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:06:04
testing again
128

beckypumps1,

fife 18/12/2007 22:21:08
When times are good you save and give yourself a wee safety net. When you have a bit behind you then you buy the TV cash or 0%apr. Please dont listen to Carol Vorderman and if you cant affort that 3rd kid keep your pants on.
129

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:22:10
Testing, testing
130

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:22:38
What's wrong with this site it keeps jumping to the error page.
131

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 22:25:35
#36 SimonW.

Yes, you are right. The mother is sick but the people commenting are not being mean-spirited. Go back and read the article again. They are confused at the poor grammar of the article which leads you to believe that it's the child that is sick.
132

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 22:28:44
#29 Mina,

Actually, the article impies that the child is the sick one as you and many other posters have pointed out. So, my comment was valid. It is actually the mother that is sick and I apologolise on behalf of the writer of this article for his/her bad grammar which implied that it was the child who was sick.
133

Julian,

EDINBURGH 18/12/2007 22:34:06
#36 simonW

Actually, I have read the article for the fouth time and am still not totally sure who is the sick one. I think it's the child now. Could anyone shed some light on this?
134

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:49:31
Trying to, but it won't let me post properly
135

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:51:12
Someone else had the same problem yesterday.
136

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:53:12
"The family's problems began shortly after Emma was born, when she {Emma or Caroline??}} was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, the chronic inflammatory condition, and osteoporosis. At the time she {obviously Caroline} had three jobs but was forced to give these up, while her partner did the same to care for her {Emma or Caroline??} full time. ...

To relieve her {Emma or Caroline's} condition, Caroline seldom has her heating off, and her monthly gas bills... And that is before Emma's special diet is to be taken into account."

So we have Emma on a special diet, suggesting at the end that Emma is the one who is ill. But at the beginning all indications are that it is Caroline who is ill, therefore her partner cares for her (Caroline). Otherwise why is it not the partner caring for Emma, with Caroline continuing on with her 3 jobs? My feeling is that the last line has an error. That it is Caroline who has the special diet? or that the story omits something critical about Emma with both of the women ill.

This woman had THREE jobs in order to provide for her family before things went wrong. It was a FOUR job family, including the male partner. Hardly the type of family that can be grouped together with dole cheats.
137

Kipling,

18/12/2007 22:54:01
ah ha!! I put in a double less than sign "<<" as an alternative to a quote mark. This stopped it.
138

,

18/12/2007 23:08:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
139

scotsdoc,

NANAIMO BC CANADA 18/12/2007 23:14:52
Well why has Scotland not got a reasonable standard of living for it's citizens?

Well for one, the Unions killed a lot of industry! As a kid of around 17 I had a job on the Moat (coal) Pit at Roslin.
Those were the days when food was rationed and a pail full of mussels from Port Seton boiled in the fires that produced the steam for the hoists, was a feast!!

I was taught "Don't work too hard or you'll work yourself out of a job"
"This pit belongs to the Government and the government can't go bust"
"Don't work too hard because it's hard for us to keep up"
"We're in a class war - the bosses versus the workers, you can't be on both sides"
"Better we all starve tonight than we pool our food and let one man survive till morning"

And there were 'fiddles' too, that saw the Coal Board losing money. Coal lorries coming in over the scales with the co-driver tarpaulin and weights on board - going out loaded but with the help out of the cab standing on the ground with the tarpaulin and weights, on the far side from the scales. Each trip went out with about 5 extra bags.....and so on it went!

And now the pit is gone and it's associated brickworks, without a single trace left, and all the good jobs gone too!
140

Shamus,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 23:49:39
Poverty of the brain seems to be the biggest problem in Scotland. Live within your means, do not try and keep up with the JONES. GET OFF THE BEVVY AND DRUGS. BEND YOUR CREDIT CARD, STOP WATCHING WESTENDERS AND SOAP TRASH, LOOK AFTER YOUR CHILDREN, FORGET ABOUT THE SOCIAL WORKERS.CHRISTMAS IS NOT ABOUT GETTING SKINT AND INTO DEBT. Poverty does not exist in this country, but it does in Africa. OBESITY IS NOT A PROBLEM IN AFRICA.
141

loafer,

glasgow 19/12/2007 00:00:43
sorry for the childs illness but both carers can work full time outside the house;how about working different shifts; my husband and i have 7 kids;he worked ay shift and i worked evening shift; we did this for 25 years;yes,it was difficult but we did what needed to be done,never used babysitters and had no family to pitch in either; when the going gets tough,sell the telly and get off your duff
142

Julian,

EDINBURGH 19/12/2007 00:55:22
Kipling,

I'm still not enlightened any further. I think it's time for "MARTYN MCLAUGHLIN AND TANYA THOMPSON", the writers of this article, to shed some light on this. I notice we do not have the option of e-mailing them to ask. Wonder if this is a design of the new website or, as someone from the EEN once told me, part of the old design which means single writers could be e-mailed but joint writers couldn't.

I think in summary we can say that if the mother is ill, their position is understandable. If it's the daughter then I can't see why both parents have to live at home.
143

Richard McGill,

Serra, Talhada, Pernambuco, Brazil 19/12/2007 02:25:21
Yes, I believe No.9 Second Hand, Malaysia 18/12/2007 02:44:21 is right.

True poverty is in fact very difficult to define. Observations can be useful though.

Looking around the poorest people in the town where I live I see a lot of poor families. These people don't beg but quietly try to ask you for a little job to do.

You can spot the really hungry children at a glance. They are proud and don't say anything but they usually sit quietly to conserve energy and look up to you with sunken eyes, spotty faces and they have thin ribs and swollen stomachs.

Another observation is the poorest people here have the largest smiles. That is what keeps them going. They ask for nothing and expect nothing, but if you pass by a poor person who was eating something and you say "That looks good," they would offer it to you.

What I am describing is a different type of poverty as these people I'm describing have very basic mud, or hand-made brick houses, with no plaster finish or floor covering. Water will be collected from a well and it will have to be boiled before it is drinkable.

But please think about these very poor people who are probably less able to make choices about what happens to them this Christmas. There are no birthday cards or Christmas presents for these families.
144

Bad Science,

Pueblo 19/12/2007 07:35:55
Nobody should blame the poor because it is the rich that invented poverty to keep everyone else busy supporting the rich. What strategy, how marvelous.

Now I know that is reverse psychology, but when you're rich you can have the time to figure out that you are in control of the masses and understand the logic because it rakes in the big money. Now if the poor didn't buy anything from the rich, the poor would die. Now that wouldn't make sense, but the rich know that. At this point there is no way around that. It's like a chess game and the rich win. Or do they, the poor at this point have to check their strategy, just as if the money in their pockets actually belongs to them. Duh!

Now who are the poor going to give their money to? If the poor uses their strategy right, the rich will also become the poor, and those rich idiots can quit playing strategy games with poverty stricken people's money. So what do you say, that rich people are the best at, is it coveting the poor's funds.

Secondly, what are the rich wanting most this season. Oh, did the rich invent seasonal spending? I bet that's what they want.

I can just here them at the dinner table. 'Yippee, Daddy please have all the people buy lots and lots of cell phones and cameras this year because I would like to visit the South of France this year, Grand mama has asked us to travel to see her in her chalet, besides this year the wine is probably the best in years'

Now this year, what rich famous people are you going to honor? I suggest paying homage to your favorite rich strategist because it will make you look up to someone special, and smarter than you, and you can try real hard to be just like them. Now isn't that what everyone teaches their children to do? That's sick, sick, sick.
145

an old aquaintance,

peterhead 20/12/2007 01:14:59
The story is very contrived. Caroline fails to tell that, she threw her oldest daughter out at 16 to fend for herself. The fact that from the date she married first time round she has taken drugs and drank heavily and smoked at least 20 a day may have a lot to do with her state of poverty. Having 3 children with different fathers and the fact really is that she did not work much, instead she realied on benefits. She should not be pitied, but its time she faced up to her responsibilities as a praent and stopped whining and got a job.
146

an old aquaintance,

Peterhead 20/12/2007 01:19:17
Caroline may have 3 children but she is not responsible for them all, as she threw her oldest daughter out at 16 to fend for herself, because ahe wanted to stay in education and improve herself. Most of Carolines problems stem from her love of smoking, drinking and taking drugs.,
147

myworthlessopinion,

EDINBURGH 21/12/2007 00:22:44
blah blah blah. why do people bother commenting on this sort of evening news story. cleverly pretending to be sympathetic, while casually throwing in the info about her sofa and big telly.

yeah, she's probably real, yeah she could probably do more to sort her situation out for herself and yeah, there are other people in britain exploiting the system to a greater degree.

some people have no compassion, no understanding and are supremely arrogant about how easy it is to 'succeed' in life
148

Kipling,

23/12/2007 00:11:35
#158. Sorry, I didn't think I was trying to enlighten you as to the real situation, just where the ambiguities arose in the journalists' writing. #161 & #162 blame her present financial distress on her expensive habits (drugs, smoking, etc.) but doesn't solve the issue about who is ill. If it's Caroline who is ill, maybe she couldn't cope with three children? Who knows....

I've seen old ladies in supermarket queues with only pennies to spend. Those old people who are cripples (oops! disabled!) have to pay full price for their taxis (free bus tickets don't help everyone). The real poor in Britain are the old.
149

Tara-Boom,

Aberdeen 27/12/2007 09:19:12
Can i just say that your reporters should get their facts straight before they print a story. While I know Caroline Mockford and no she hasnt had an easy life things are not as bad as the article makes out. If she can only afford to eat toast in order to buy a book how come she and her partner can afford to smoke 80 cigarettes a day between then and how can he afford to spend all day in the pub? As for her daughter Emma only getting board games for xmas that is absolute rubbish amongst the toys, clothes, money, she also got a ticket for High School Musical On Ice - hardly from a charity shop. Also they do not pay any rent - because they are on benefits, Caroline never worked three jobs and the fact that she put carrier bags in her boots is absolute lies. And as for Emmas special diet.... doesnt exist. I feel so sick that people can make up lies to make people feel sorry for them. If you knew what Caroline was really like - you wouldnt feel sorry for her.

 

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