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Pope: Millions are losing their religion and declaring God is dead



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Published Date: 06 October 2008
MODERN culture is so devoid of faith that some people are declaring God "dead" and entire nations are losing their identity, Pope Benedict XVI warned yesterday.
The 81-year-old pontiff said that God was being pushed out of people's lives under the "harmful and destructive influence" of today's society.

His comments, made during a Mass at the start of a month-long synod of Roman Catholic bishops from aro
und the world, come amid growing concern about the decline in church attendance and interest in religion in many Western nations.

Pope Benedict is particularly worried about a growing indifference to religion in Europe.

Speaking at the Basilica of St Paul Outside the Walls in Rome, the Pope said: "Today, nations once rich in faith and vocations are losing their own identity under the harmful and destructive influence of a certain modern culture.

"There are those who, after deciding that 'God is dead', declare themselves to be 'god' and the artisan of their own destiny, the absolute master of the world."

Pope Benedict said attempts to "brush God aside" lead to arrogance, selfishness, injustice, exploitation and violence.

"When men proclaim themselves to be absolute masters of themselves and sole masters of creation, can they truly build a society where freedom, justice and peace reign?" he asked.

In recent decades, the Catholic Church's influence has seen a decline in developed countries, although it is growing in the Third World.

Both the Church of Scotland and Scottish Catholic Church have seen a drop in worshippers in recent years – the Church of Scotland has seen numbers fall nearly 60 per cent since 1960, and between 1994 and 2003, Mass attendances fell from 250,000 to 194,728. Earlier this year the Vatican also reported a dramatic fall in the number of Roman Catholic monks and nuns.

Ronnie Convery, spokesman for the Scottish Catholic Church, said Pope Benedict's comments reflected the concerns religious leaders had been aware of for some time.

"What we are seeing is that our culture has changed, subtly but significantly," Mr Convery said. "Many people today, even though they wouldn't declare themselves atheist, behave as though God doesn't exist.

"One of the main challenges of the Catholic Church is to remind people of their Christian roots and the important role that the Church has played in the shaping of our culture."

Seven days of non-stop Bible reading

THE Pope was the first of more than 1,200 people to take part in a marathon non-stop reading of the Bible, expected to last a week. It will be broadcast on Italian state television, RAI.

The Pope read from Genesis yesterday. All 73 books of the Catholic edition of the Bible will be read. Each speaker will read for about five to eight minutes.

Giulio Andreotti, a former Italian prime minister, former presidents Francesco Cossiga, Oscar Luigi Scalfaro and Carlo Azeglio Ciampi and several ministers in the centre-right government of Silvio Berlusconi will also be among the readers.

The Oscar-winning actor Roberto Benigni will be joined by film-maker Michele Placido and tenor Andrea Bocelli; the Brazil and AC Milan football star Kaká will also read.

A number of Muslims and Jews will also take part, but Rome's chief rabbi, Riccardo di Segni, pulled out of the event last month, saying it had become "too Catholic" for him. The reading ends on Saturday night.



The full article contains 576 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 October 2008 10:15 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Roman Catholic church
 
1

2dogs in D.C.,

06/10/2008 00:02:59
This is really old news. I first heard this back around 1968.
2

Newman!,

06/10/2008 00:38:53
Dear Pope, people are waking up to your fairy tales and dogma and are learning to think for themselves and when they do there is every chance that they will reject all the nonsense that you preach. Do yourself a favour and throw off the robes and go enjoy those last few years you have without worrying about going to hell. It doesnt exist.
3

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 01:07:05


As governments become increasingly less democratic, freedom of religion is the first human right surrendered to an authority, freedom of speech is second.


It is in that manner of discovery that people realized religion held the morals and future of society
4

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 06/10/2008 01:14:26
Religion does not hold the 'morals and the future of society'.

Religious countries are not renowned for their freedom of religion. The best way to ensure freedom of religion and freedom from religion is to have a State that is neutral - a secular state.
5

SCULLION1,

Canada 06/10/2008 01:22:03
#3 that comment would be funny if it weren't so ludicrous.
Buchenwald, Auschwitz etc. were not liberated by some deity but by hard men from the West and Godless warriors from the East. God was nowhere to be seen.
Also, ask the people of Boston what they think about the morality of religion.
6

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 01:40:36
@5 SCULLION1, Canada

So you would have us believe that the people who died in Buchenwald, Auschwitz etc. were nonreligious.
That statement is truly ludicrous, but not funny.

Armies of people risked their lives, to rescue those in the camps, because they believed the aggression, oppression and killing was immoral.

As for the Boston comment, Consider it asked, and answered, I live in the 'burbs' of Bean town:
I hope you not suggesting your moral disapproval of the Gay Marriage laws we passed

7

openairpreacher at utube,

USA openairpreacher on Utube 06/10/2008 01:44:35
God will not let sinning people into His kingdom

warning repent/stop sinning

ask Jesus to forgive you
or you are on your way to Hell!

openairpreacher at utube
8

Jim Baxter RIP,

Sai Kung 06/10/2008 01:51:57
the popes a joke!
9

The Pict.,

06/10/2008 01:55:29
# 7 I'd rather shovel coal than spend, in your lingo, the rest of eternity with the like of you and the rest of the evangelistic airheads.
10

SCULLION1,

Canada 06/10/2008 02:02:38
#6 You completely misunderstood my answer-though I suspect you did on purpose. My point was the secular saved the religious when God was busy doing other things.
Canada, with my vote, was way ahead of the U.S. in legalizing gay marriage-despite the pope threatening our Catholic MP's (they politely told him to get stuffed).

11

,

06/10/2008 02:24:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 02:30:54
@10 Scullion
Your statement- The secular saved the religious- is a false, ludicrous and harsh comment. The United States was not a 'secular' country when it entered WWII, but, I'm sure you know that but refuse to admit it.

My original comment is correct that people realized religion holds the morals and future of society, not the government
13

Stereotypical Glaswegian,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 02:59:48
Nothing new in the report.

Has brought out the international nut jobs all the same.
14

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 06/10/2008 03:13:27
I think that Brother Nathanael is a very interesting street preacher. Here's a link to his web site.

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=288

Caution - he has a particular point of view.

regarding this 'god' stuff - I think people should consider that god made this world and did it as he pleased. and he is the one with the real power. He'll let us have our folly so that we can learn lessons and make choices. but we delude ourselves when we think that we can decide what is true with regard to these matters. We are not the ones who make the decisions. here's a bible verse.

"Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth."

I have no disrespect to catholics, on the contrary I like them. But this pope fellow is of little consequence.
15

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 03:22:15
@14 Wally, By The Rivers Of Babylon

What a truly low-crawling loathsome creature you are.
I hope you make the correct decision and delete the link you provided.
If you want to spout that trash please do in your own home.
16

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 06/10/2008 03:25:46
#11 Scullion (is it Mrs or Mr?)You went through a civil ceremony squire,wed you were not.Only in your dreams was it a wedding!
17

DunCraig,

Brisbane 06/10/2008 03:33:30
God? Dead? How can a figment of someone's imagination be dead? Religious mumbo-jumbo!
18

Stushie,

Glasgow 06/10/2008 03:34:01
Actually, Scullion, the Western liberating forces during World War 2 were initially known as the Allied Forces of Christian Nations - check the history books.

19

Big Stevie,

Sydneyside 06/10/2008 03:43:53
The head of the Catholic Church makes a pronouncement and Non-Catholics are lining up to crticise him. Yawn Yawn

If you dont believe in God then this statement has no relevance to you so why comment on it.

20

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 06/10/2008 03:53:15
Carolyn in 15:

I do seem to recall you speaking on this forum with a particular zeal telling me that christians would never be allowed to rule America. that seemed a little bit like hate-speech to me, given that America is a majority christian nation. On this forum you've revealed that you value christians as a voting block for your agenda, but that you dislike them and have contempt for their beliefs.

This Brother Nathanael fellow has many articles he's authored and available on his web site I linked to in #14. He's of a jewish background and New York City as well. But he preaches on the streets for Jesus and his favorite targets are jewish neighborhoods in NYC. You can see him on YouTube as well. He's quite a personality.

Remember also about Brother Nathanael, he has been attacked with physical violence just for preaching. he lives in poverty, carries a cross and speaks words. Yet he inspires death threats and physical violence against himself.
21

Ursus arctos horribilis,

06/10/2008 03:55:51
"people are declaring God "dead"


No Big Papa you still dont get it-he was never alive in the first place-just a myth perpetuated as a devious means of mind-control over the uneducated masses!
22

Harry "Dingy" Reid,

Las Vegas 06/10/2008 03:57:13
Look at all the intolerant idiots bashing religion.
23

donald,

glasgow 06/10/2008 05:22:07
I became and atheist at the age of eight, when I discovered that God was English.
24

Tarr,

Leath Mhas 06/10/2008 05:51:45
Unfortunately, when people don't believe in God,they don't believe in nothing they believe in anything (GKC), eg. Nazism, Communism, salvation through politics or their mindless exercises in anti-culture, Hollywood, celebrity, pop culture.
25

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA For more WAR VOTE McCain 06/10/2008 06:09:03
Listen up dudes

This geriatric Pope Benedict XVI , should purchase a new collar and lead to walk his DOG.

Hey Pope Dude, don't forget to carry a pooper scooper,.

like the DOG walkers in New York's parks.

GC
26

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA For more WAR VOTE McCain 06/10/2008 06:11:47
23
donald,
glasgow

Dude ,
I became a Shroom eater when I discovered that DOG had 4 legs and a tail.

And a bunch of people kept referring too DOG as GOD.

GC
27

JaE_in_Oz,

Oz 06/10/2008 06:29:14
The Pope is entitled to his imaginary friend but not to impose his views on the rest of us. The "death" of an imaginary friend is in the imagination of the imaginer and is not the concern of the rest of us (with the possible exception of Mental Health professionals).
The good news in this report is that in the expert opinion of the Pope the masses are getting over their opiate.
28

El Sabio,

Sibbertoft 06/10/2008 06:31:41
Where was God when

(1) the Nazis started their racial genocide?
German soldiers had the words GOTT MITT UNS on their bbbelt buckles.
(2) the Khmer Rouge murdered millions?
(3) the Inquisition burned people alive?
(4) Bloody Mary imposed her faith by burning people alive?

How many millions or billions live in dire poverty?
How many wars were fought in the name of religion?

One can go on like I have ad nauseam but I hope that the Holy Father will understand how many people think the same way as I do.

We live in an acquisitive age, an age in which only wealth is important and many make money as their god!


29

Tarr,

Lheath mhas 06/10/2008 07:13:35
Atheism is a bore. Made more of a bore by the likes of Chris Hitchens. Though for mass murderers like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and intellectual swindlers like Marx and Engels it was all the rage. The problem with atheism is you have to believe in Man and that is very thin gruel.
30

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 06/10/2008 07:51:55
Religion is fine as it encourages us to ask the big questions.

Organised religion is the problem as it believes it has the answers to these questions. Just ask any practising Christian, Muslim or Jew.

Atheism is also part of the problem as it denies the big questions exist.

The spiritual and the material are the two sides of the coin of being. Mutually inclusive, not exclusive.
31

Keith G,

Hull 06/10/2008 08:00:31
So the Pope is worried about how much control the church has lost is he? ... i think personally that the reason the church has lost so much influence is due to it still trying to control the world, when most of the western world is now educated enough to understand that the bible is contradictory, hypocritical and to be honest really not much more than a fairy tale.
I do not need a book nor an organisation that wish to control my thoughts and deeds to have faith. I have faith, more faith than many practicing "Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus" i follow my relgions tennets as i should , i do not steal i do not lie i do not kill ,i live as good a life as anyone can in this modern world. Benedict needs to modernise, update his faith and church if he wants to stop the heamoraging that is happening to the church , but as we see so often in the news, the church is still preaching its darkages mantra of guilt, hellfire and damnnation for those that don't obey its dictates.It's time your Holiness that you moved your practices forward 700 years to the modern age and stop bleating on about how people are losing faith, in the end you have no one else to blame but yourselves
32

Bigwull,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 08:15:07
surely this is a good thing, religion is the root of all evil
33

billengland,

06/10/2008 08:32:21
30 Rulesbutnotrulers

Wise words!
34

Boy Wonder,

06/10/2008 08:39:29
The Pope (and other religious leaders of the West) is really concerned that people are no longer superstitious and willing to pay him and his lot big bucks so they can swan around telling us what a lot of sinners we are!

"nations once rich in faith and vocations are losing their own identity under the harmful and destructive influence of a certain modern culture."

In other words ... wouldn't it be good to slip back 600 years and let US rule you again when you were all ignorant and we did what liked in the guise of religion!

Yeah ... and the Inquisition were the Nazis of their time too!!!
35

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 08:49:26
I think that if the Pope listens carefully throughout this marathon reading of the bible, he may get a better understanding of why so many reject religious teachings. I certainly hope so.

#30 "Atheism is also part of the problem as it denies the big questions exist."

That's a rather shallow view of atheism. You treat it as a single point of view, yet it encompasses probably as many opinions as do all the world's religions. I certainly don't deny that big questions remain. But it is the religious position that these questions have already been answered.
36

Ursus arctos horribilis,

06/10/2008 08:50:40
#30 #31 Dont disagree with what you say.

Moreover the other problem with the demise of organised religion is what do you put in its place-currently it appears to be football and soaps?

Although personally I believe that religion is indeed a fairy-tale I think many people need a religious belief to provide a moral compass and as a crutch to help them try and make sense of their very short existence on this planet.

Once that crutch is undermined or taken away you have chaos and that is what we can see all around us-the world and society is a total mess and we are in a moral sewer and to that extent I can appreciate the Pope's views.

37

Southern Cross,

06/10/2008 09:14:09
#36: "Once that crutch is undermined or taken away you have chaos."

So why does Sweden, the least religious country in the world, have such a contented, prosperous population?

And why does the USA, the most religious of the developed countries, have such high levels of murder, divorce, teenage preganancy etc...

38

,

06/10/2008 09:31:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

AJ Fife,

06/10/2008 09:44:41
It's all Dan Broon's fault!
40

Stop buy Scotsman,

06/10/2008 09:57:33
Religious is a good thing if it been used in right way. Sadly too many religious has been misused and abused by human, ie muslin, jew, christian etc.. Many people has been murdered by all the religious leaders.
It no wonder why people have turn away from their faiths. In britain it seem normal for queen who is richest woman on earth is the head of church and all her leaders leaders live in wealthy life-sytle and same for the pope lives in massive building in rome. If I remember right Jesus was born in stable and he doesn't have same bank account as the queen or any religious leaders. I believe God but don't to be part of any orgainations.
41

thinking,

Scotland 06/10/2008 09:58:14
Isn't it great that we live in a society where we can openly express our individual views.
Let's be nice about it though. We can have differing opinions and still be kind, considerate and polite to one another.
42

Number 6,

Germany 06/10/2008 10:03:44
Clearly, if there was a God, and at sometime he had it out with the "Devil", then it seems quite obvious, that the "Bad Guys" won. How would a loving God explain the horrors of history perpetrated in his name.

How would he explain the perversity of the Tsunami ?
and his refusal to do anything to stop it?.

A study of religion shows how they are primarily a way to control society. Even Mohammed first saw himself as a Jewish leader. it was not until the jews rejected him that he got his followers to face Mecca to pray. before that the followers of Mohammed faced towards Jerusalem.

America is a prime example with their hundreds of different churches and Cults, which all seem to be nothing to do with worship and EVERYTHING to do with control.
43

Alan B,

06/10/2008 10:07:02
#40 "Religious is a good thing if it been used in right way. "

How exactly. Lets suppose for a minute the religions are wrong. (lets remember they cannot all be right). What you are suggesting is we a society believe in something false, and collectively if we all sign up for a false myth then that will benefit us all. ie the truth does not matter and we are meant to have blind faith to something unlikely to be true.

In many ways religion have been used by the leaders of countries to control people. ie it is a form of social control.

The more educated a society, that encourages the freedom of thought, the more likely religious belief will decrease over time.

44

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 06/10/2008 10:24:21
Does it not occur to this tiresome bigot that nigh on 2000 years of his organisation's particular brand of self deluding, dishonest bigotry, oppression, intolerance, institutionalised criminalisation of Jewry, lying and hypocrisy has aleeted people to the fact that God, if God exists, would never become manifest in that form?

No platform for spiritual terrorists.
45

Ursus arctos horribilis,

06/10/2008 10:36:39
#37 dont know about Sweden being the least religious country -but unfortunately they do have twice the suicide rate of the UK-so the Swedes are not all the contented fun-loving people you portray.

Scandanavian countries all score highly in the lack of corruption surveys and seem to have a very good sense of social welfare and a more equally distributed wealth structure. They have much to commend them.

Although perhaps not now a deeply religious country their Lutheran past must have played a large part in forming these attitudes-much as Scotland's indigenous Presbyterian history shaped our own culture.
46

Thistledhu,

06/10/2008 11:23:52
I beleive in every persons right to follow The faith of there choice without harrasement. But along with that i also beleive the right not follow any faith as the same sentiment.

I do not need the dictate of clergy to know the diffrence between right and wrong.

One of the strangleholds the variouse churches has had is the act of buriel but with humanist offering a clear dignified and tastefull alternative this too will gradualy elude the churches too.

Churches in scotland have taken there position in society for granted for some time now. they are getting the just reward for this.
47

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 06/10/2008 12:00:07
GC in CA

Your feeble attempts at humour are definitely not funny.

Are you on "wacky tabacky" YET again?

It would be interesting to have access to Italian television since the ENTIRE Bible - RC Douai version - will be read there, starting with Benny reading from Genesis.

Boy Wonder is an anti-relionist and an anti-monarchist.

What else is he "anti"?

2 dogs in D.C.

Brisk morning in Ottawa but the sun will be brillian today and the leaves on our trees are turning red and yellow and purple and orange and etc. and the Autumn spectacle here is SPECTACULAR!

By the way, and for everyone's information, we have such BREATHTAKING displays of Fall colours here because of our high iron content in the soil which is a leftover from the formation of the great Canadian Shield.

Just thought you may want to know this.

48

paulr,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 12:28:31
God is not dead,
God never existed, he/she is a construct of manipulative power hungry control freaks, a con on a globally historical scale.
So how could a creature that never existed die?
49

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 12:29:24
@20
Wally, By The Rivers Of Babylon

I am spewing hate speech?
That coming from a wacko who probably doesn't say three sentences in public for fear of hospitalization.
It seems to me that on this forum I have said many times that the US has a separation of church and state, and no religion can ever rule the government or the people. That is not hate speech- and I point to the rule of law- if it were hate speech the framers of the Constitution would have been executed for writing it.

I suggest you get an authentic copy of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and not the fuzzy stuff you find under a slimy rock.

I also seem to recall that on this forum you, Wally, have many times called for the removal of Jews.
Please explain from your slimy sense of morality why that is that NOT hate speech?
And then when you're done expressing your opinion with the free speech guaranteed you under the Constitution you just tore up, explain why it is hate speech when I express the Constitution foundation that no religion will rule the country.

SO I see that your hate link is still there. Proof that you really do loathe anyone who is not your 'standard of Christian.' Pitiful.
50

Jay Kay,

06/10/2008 12:50:02
#20 Wally, do you honestly beleive that there is a god and that he made this world in seven days neh! six days because on the seventh he rested and got p*ssed?

If thats the case he had one sick sense of humour don't you think, just look at Scotland the beautiful scenery plentiful streams, oil, gas, gold, whiskey and then he puts those b*stard English right next door???

Oh what about the moon then oh or mars, Mercury, Venus, Saturn, Neptune, the huge gas ball of gigantic proportions Jupiter, Uranus or your a*us which ever you pronounce and Pluto, what about the rest of the milky way, Andomeda, Presius, lyra need I go on, surely you cant think that there is one big bloke behind all this ??

If there is I take my hat of to him because well he gave us Jordan didnt he. Nice work there mate but you left out the brain, must have been a sunday when he got to that bit.

Kylie, not to bad a job either but better second attempt though.
51

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 13:26:04
@42
Number Six
I think you may have a point about good and evil. After all, if there was a righteous and loving God, he wouldn't have made you. Is that what you're saying?

Or, could it be, that as a righteous and loving God, he made you and gave you free will to do with your life as you pleased?

Or, if you don't think that's the case, are you suggesting that
a) God was foolish and wasted a life on you
b) you are foolish and have wasted your life or
c) there is no such thing as free will for God to do as he pleases, or for you to do you please



52

Number 6,

Germany 06/10/2008 13:56:26
#51 Only you know what your wittering on about .

Let me try and make it clear, I DONT BELIEVE IN ANY SUPREME BEING. Got that ?
53

Nancy "Stretch" Pelosi,

San Francisco 06/10/2008 14:00:23
#51 Carolyn 1

You make a valid point about poster "IQ of 6"
54

Carolyn 1,

06/10/2008 14:08:00
@52 Number 6

SO that would be answer b.
To answer any other way would confirm you never existed

55

tfstand,

Chorley 06/10/2008 14:11:03
Keith G (31) - I fully agree with your views about the Bible. Unless I have misinterpreted your comments you still appear to believe in God, so where does your belief stem from if it is not the Bible?

Perhaps you are actually a humanist, who treat all with equal respect and have better morals and ethics than many adherents to major religions, because they know it is the impact in this life that counts, not some imaginery reward in a life to come.

As for the Pope bringing Catholicism forward 700 years to the present, forget it - he would have to admit that what had gone before was hocus pocus, which is what, of course, it was!

56

Number 6,

Germany 06/10/2008 14:41:27
#54 It's answer B only in your trailer. I am a product of evolution, I owe nothing to some "God", only to a collection of chemicals nutured at agreeable tempratures to form and sustain life.
57

,

06/10/2008 15:00:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
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58

Tarr,

Leath Mhas 06/10/2008 15:05:39
If we draw up the death lists religion vs scientistic materialism, it's not even close. The scientistic materialists Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler (we'll just factor in the 20th century representatives, so we don't have to engage a super computer to calculate the bloodletting) with a conservative 100 million deaths in their ledger leave the lads in the robes far, far behind. That's including the 10,000 or so deaths from the various Inquisitions, some of which were state sponsored. There's nothing like a crackpot belief in worldly progress to get the blood spilling.
59

,

06/10/2008 15:18:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
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60

bluehead,

edinburgh 06/10/2008 15:26:28
God was made redundant when Bush and Blair starting running things,and the results are there for all to see!
Total Mayhem!!
61

danbob,

06/10/2008 15:40:16
She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the anger of her fornication!” (Revelation 14 verse 8)
To those who have never studied the bible, (clearly many) Babylon is where all the false religions of the world are thought to have originated. In revelation it is foretold that all the false religions will fall to the amazement of many.

Scullion1 59# Heres one for you.
‘And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing (leviticus 18 verse 22)
62

tfstand,

Chorley 06/10/2008 15:58:02
Tarr (58) - very, very weak arguments, as always with those who throw up the usual suspects. Firstly, Hitler was not an atheist.

Stalin & Mao were but their actions were not inspired by atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, and there is nothing about atheism that inherently leads to genocide etc. Atheism has no dogma.

The Inquisition (in a world with a tiny population compared to now)killed people because of a doctrine and Christianity was to blame, as it was for the countless number of people killed by the Romans. The Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 was the first international recognition that centuries of war amongst nations had been caused by religion.

63

,

06/10/2008 16:00:43
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64

,

06/10/2008 16:09:49
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65

JCA REID,

Annan 06/10/2008 16:17:24
He never existed. Look at the wars/slavery/inhumanity blatantly waged by churches, of whatever religious persuasion in the name of "God" & the Catholic Church is well to the fore!
If he does exist why not the vengeful thunderbolts & booming voice raining down on us to change our ways, or the wiping of peoples for their "sins"??
All the bible is, is a Soap Opera set mostly 2,000-4004years a go!!
66

presto,

06/10/2008 16:54:29
#65 - And so what you say about the muslim book, Qu'ran (Koran)? Isn't it also fairy tale story and soap opera?
67

Owusu,

Richmond,Va 06/10/2008 17:04:02
The proves once again the validity of the scriptures as it clearly states that in the last day many will abandon the faith.

I pray that all of you unbelievers will come to the knowledge of truth in the deity of Jesus Christ Our Lord.
68

,

06/10/2008 17:04:04
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69

Mcsnagpile,

06/10/2008 17:26:42
You cannot trust Gods. The latest one has just crashed through the floor and everybody is hangiing on to it's hem
It is true about the Third world- you have to look after your body parts, before the Witch Doctor does.
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tfstand,

Chorley 06/10/2008 17:57:46
Owusu (67) - please don't pray for me. Pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster instead, it will have a better chance of working.

You may have faith but you do not know the 'truth'. Truth is testable and observable, and has evidence. Enough said!
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SNP hypocrisy,

06/10/2008 18:10:08
It is easy for the Pope to use words like Athiesm - but no he is wrong it is 'Agnostic Theism' that has taken root. Since people began to use their own minds - Christianity has become quite dead, and why not because frankly it is bunkum, based loosely on a mish-mash of characters and corrupted Jewish history.

It's more than bunkum - since it has caused wars, invasion & enslavement, treachery and tortures unfit for any religion or any cause.

If you are Christian - take heart from the 'Sermon on the Mount' and tell the churches to push off, since it is clear from that sermon - that Jesus was advising that we do exactly that. This particular Pope is far from being infallible - if he was that he'd never have followed Adolf Hitler.
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SNP hypocrisy,

06/10/2008 18:18:07
75. The Earth and Solar System was the result of a rotating gas cloud called a solar nebula consisting of Hydrogen and Helium gases about 4.6 billion years ago, which flattened and became the proto-star and proto-planets. The planets were built up by accretion as the material collided and stuck together. Similarly when the star was massive enough and the core temperature was hot enough the Sun ignited to its main sequence.
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danbob,

06/10/2008 18:24:19
73# No he dosn't know the truth. And like the majority who have posted on here his knowledge of the bible is based on what most churches teach. Thats Part bible, part paganism, part lies, and part wishfull thinking.

76# Which book, chapter, and verses refer to the sermon of the mount?
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SNP hypocrisy,

06/10/2008 18:25:01
56 Number 6, Indeed all commonly found chemicals. As Science progresses we realise that the basic conditions for the simplest 'life' are common everywhere in the Universe. Evolution and an environment which stimulates change and adaptation does the rest over a long period of time. It now seems considerably more straight forward than it once did. I put my faith in Darwin. ;-)
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SNP hypocrisy,

06/10/2008 18:26:02
78. Don't you know?
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Aiken Head,

Dumbarton 06/10/2008 18:35:16
Personality cult ideologies share 99% of their DNA with religious cult ideologies and are almost indistinguishable.

The 20th century saw both types commit mass murder but the 19th century Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - Christians - still holds the record.

Scotland has long been to the fore in evolving out of the medieval mindset, although a significant minority may make that hard to believe.
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danbob,

06/10/2008 18:37:16
80# Clearly you don't but yet feel qualified to preach about it. Let me ask you a few questions
1) Where did the earths water come from
2) Why do a lot of astronoughts who view the earth from the emptiness of space become very religious.
3) Why do a lot of prominant brain surgeons admit that they feel the brain is such a complex organ that they cannot see how it just evolved?
4) If creatures evolved why have we not found creatures that were in the process of evolving in fosilised form.
5) If we evolved from monkeys why can we not mate with monkeys? Why can animals only mate within that species?
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danbob,

06/10/2008 18:40:57
81# What scientific study have you got that rubbish from?

: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. (Matthew 11 verse 25) Spoken by Jesus
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SNP hypocrisy,

06/10/2008 18:47:40
82. I assure you that I do. If I did not I could easily google and come back with what you asked. However I am not that sad. I suggest you go google the sermon on the mount, if that is within your capabilities and if you have a mind of your own.
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danbob,

06/10/2008 18:53:53
84# I don't need to google anything because I know it well. Have you tried googling my 5 questions. They will keep you googling for a few year.
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SNP hypocrisy,

06/10/2008 18:54:26
1. Earth's water? Duh H20. Are you just stupid, or completely lacking in all basic Scientific knowledge education. Hydrogen for your information is the root of all chemicals. I can't be bothered explaining basic Chemistry to you, suggest you try reading a book other than the bible.

2. Ridiculous question. I could likewise ask why it is that Sagan, Hawking, Dawkins, countless others have embraced Agnosticism. The more they know the less credible religion seems - it's a sliding scale.

3. Riducolous. It's simply down to evolution.

4. Considering that Evolution can take countless generations and countless millions of years - and not overnight - it would be ridiculous to imagine we could find somehing in the process of evolving. All fossils are showing the creatures state of evolution at that moment.

5. We did not 'evolve from monkeys' as you put it, we do however share a common ancestor with apes, with some we share 95% of DNA. Further we are not only related to the apes, but to all living things including plants.
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Ian Hendry,

Boston USA 06/10/2008 18:59:16
If only God would come down to earth from his Ivory tower, ban religion (superstition) so that the men in the nightdresses and funny hats can get a real job, then disappear up his own ass and stay there.....
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danbob,

06/10/2008 19:04:07
86# Go on explain about the chemistry of how water got on the earth. No didn't think so. Because there is not a scientist who lives or lived who can. I have heard it all, and the latest daft explanation is asteroids brought it. Beats santa I suppose.

Why has the human brain evolved to such a complex state then.

If the scientific view is correct that the human is relativly new to the earth compared to other creatures. Why has the human evolved to a more complex state than everything else.
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tfstand,

Chorley 06/10/2008 19:13:03
Pax Vobiscum (73) - No I don't claim to. All I maintain is that no one can produce verifiable evidence that God exists, they can't prove that the Bible is true. There have been no verifiable miracles. Look around the world now, and at its history and tell me where the hand of god is? 65% of the world is not Christian. Show me evidence and I will believe.

Danbob (82) - To pick just one questiion.Man is judged to have evolved from monkeys, or apes, but the path to being a human was not a straight one.There were sidetracks down cul-de-sacs, involvement from other variants of the species that eventually led to man. In this process the DNA changed and that is why man can't mate with monkeys.

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A McBay,

Edinburgh 06/10/2008 19:15:05
danbob

Are you saying that the universe and everything we know about it - its sheer scale, its diversity, its complexity (everything from the human brain to the fact that there are billions of galaxies with billions of stars in each one) is so awesome that it mandates a creator, some supernatural entity that must have had to create it?

If so, then who created the creator? After all, if something so jaw-droppingly complex as the universe required a creator, then that creator also itself required a creator, surely?

But then again, if this creator didn't require its own creator for whatever reason, then it's just as valid to say that neither did the universe require a creator to create it......
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danbob,

06/10/2008 19:17:00
Well I have enjoyed our little joust SNP Hypocrisy. Nothing personal, I belive, and you dont but now I must go. Hope to join you again sometime soon to attack the other devil. Alex the first of Scotland.
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Alan B,

06/10/2008 19:19:32
#danbob

You ask a poster to explain evolution. But you are asking someone to have a blind believe in religion ie the bible despite next to no evidence that it is true.

Your implication is if mankind does not fully understand evolution, science and world and then we should dumb down and believe in a fairytale, with no evidence of god existence.

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Aiken Head,

Dumbarton 06/10/2008 19:26:10
That was a joust?
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FTH22inarow,

06/10/2008 19:46:50
danbob away and sh*g a monkey and find out, perhaps you are the missing link?
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FTH22inarow,

06/10/2008 19:48:29
94 the fairies at the bottom of the garden, or an old f*rt
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tfstand,

chorley 06/10/2008 19:56:19
Aiken Head - well, if it was joust Danbob got knocked off his horse every round.
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FTH22inarow,

06/10/2008 20:08:22
98 there speaks the voice of religious doctrineism. I'm tolerant, I dont care what anbody believes, that's their personal right and as long as its not foisted or forced on others thats fine, but its small minded idiots I'm intolerant of which kind of people all religions are full of.
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FTH22inarow,

06/10/2008 20:11:06
102 light waves are a kind of radio(electromagnetic) wave but we can see that!
103 its called biology, I learned that in school, instead of reading that ripping yarn the bible
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FTH22inarow,

06/10/2008 20:12:32
105 go to jail, that'll make yer whole weak
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 20:20:20
I can understand the Popes response, he is the business of selling god. Some people sell food, others sell stocks and bonds, some sell washing machines or photo copiers, cameras or alcohol. But the pope sells god! Unlike the above mentioned, when someone sells you a camera, you actually get the camera. When the Pope sells you god, you get to offer the church money, if youre lucky you get to fall on your knees in front of the robe wearing demi god and kiss his ring! But you dont get what you paid for, which is probably why people are moving away from god.

The Earth is billions upon billions of years old, but the god hypothesis is only a few thousand years old. In that time we have had war and utter destruction in the name of this god, so perhaps its time for a wee change...

God is irrelivant nowadays, what we need is peace and humility, something only possible in a godless world.

Personally, a ban on all religious schooling would be a great start. Thus instead of children being forced to adopt their parents religious beliefs, they are left to develop their own opinions - its called respect! Lets start showing it to our children
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cape town 06/10/2008 20:32:49
I once spoke to a very humble and spiritual man in Hong Kong..He was saddended that mankind looked to a man made book for answers to difficult questions, when the answers they were seeking were within them! He could not understand why billions would fall to their knees and worhip the Pope, to him this was more blasphemous than praying to an idol or visiting a church. He never came to terms with the millions of people walking round the centre piece at the Haj and he could not believe that others would stand in front of a wall and rock their heads back and forth like robots. All programmed by their respective elders to do as they were taught..

I had to agree with him! He was after all the most peaceful man I had ever met.
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Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 20:34:05
#88 "Go on explain about the chemistry of how water got on the earth. "

I can't explain. But how I react to my ignorance and how you react mark the huge difference between agnostic and faith-based thinking. Ignorance is the foundation of scientific knowledge. A true agnostic, as defined by TH Huxley, is willing to believe anything, as long as it is supported by sound reason and evidence. Judging by your own posts, ignorance makes you uncomfortable and demands a supernatural explanation Why is that?
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 20:42:39
PAX #116

Correction - SCIENCE has NOT YET provided all the answers. But it has delivered us more sanity, clarity and reasonsing than religion.

If not for science, the earth would still be regarded the centre of the universe. I mean after all, religion told us so.
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Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 20:43:14
#116 Pax

But it keeps providing more and more answers.
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cape town 06/10/2008 20:49:56
PAX 117

Sorry, you do not get off that lightly - shouting ignorance simply wont cut it.

People do fall to their knees and kiss the ring on the Popes hand, it happens! Worldy goods, remind me about that again? The church is wealthy beyond belief, yet pleads poverty, it happens!

Our television channels are littered with the pro god movements of the world all asking you to purchase this or that with your credit card..It is sickening!

I am a man of peace, I am also a friendly and respectful person to those who I encounter in everyday life. I obey the law and the by-laws and I pay my taxes on time. I believe in peace, I believe in love and I believe in helping my fellow man when I can - but I dont believe in god and I detest those who sell the myth to people who need the myth to be real...

Cry igorance if you like, but it does not explain your position. Just as religion forgot to explain the position of the earth...Funny how the RCC only recognised Galileo's claim in 2004 was it?
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 20:55:38
PAX

I wouldnt impose my beliefs on anyone! I dont discuss religion in real life. But on an informal message board somewhere in cyber space its ok.

Speaking of imposing!

I dont know of any schools who teach atheism, but I know of most who teach the bible. I dont come across many athiest structures, but I see churches a plenty. I dont see television athiest preachers asking for money for the latest book on godlessness.

I dont believe in Santa Claus and he is more real to me than god has ever been. In fact if truth be told, Santa has more in common with any kid than god does! And better yet, kids arent scared of Santa either...
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cape town 06/10/2008 21:03:00
PAX 126

So now you are accusing me of lies.

Let me ask you the questions to the alledged lies then.

1. Do people kneel down and kiss the popes ring?
2. Would you say the RCC is free from worldy goods?
3. Are you denying that our TV channels are littered with evangelic money grabbing liars?
4. Are you openly suggesting that the RCC officially accepted Galileo's science prior to 1990?
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 21:07:58
Ribbonman #130

So you are saying that people believe the pope is a direct descendent of St Peter?

Grown men and women are certain that this pope is a direct descendent of Peter, as was Pope John Paul and the pontiffs before him. Hmmmm, so this is a direct line is it? All of them related in some way? lol

It gets funnier as it becomes more absurd...

PS: Forget the lessons, I was born to a catholic mother, my granny was a devout catholic. I loved her dearly, but man was she off the mark!
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Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 21:08:51
#121 Pax

"Who or what created the earth, Selgrove?" [sic]

Why are you asking me?

I've been told it was created from matter that resulted from the condensing (I think there's a better word) of the sun out of interstellar dust. The bible tells me that God did it in six days. I neither have the time nor inclination to prove or disprove either theory. My observations, reasoning and experience lead me to prefer the former explanation. I've seen photos of similar things happening elsewhere. I've read explanations of how it happened. It sounds believable. I accept the possibility of a supernatural being being involved. But I can't say whether this being has a grey beard or is some kind of enormous jelly that lines the universe like a kind of wallpaper. As I have no evidence for supernatural involvement, I tend to disbelieve it.

Why are you concerned about my ignorance? I enjoy it. I suggest you read the essays of TH Huxley on Agnosticism, and also some of the musings of Richard Feynman on ignorance. Here's a foretaste of Huxley, commenting on the shrinking of the realms of Christian belief as it is overtaken by scientific discovery:

"School-children may be told that the world was by no means made in six days, and that implicit belief in the story of Noah's Ark is permissible only, as a matter of business, to their toy-makers; but they are to hold for the certainest of truths, to be doubted only at peril of their salvation, that their Galilean fellow-child Jesus, nineteen centuries ago, had no human father."


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cape town 06/10/2008 21:16:40
PAX 134

"Your feigned indignation will impress few here, Media1. Your latest post - 123 - is also littered with ignorance and lies"

DOH! lmao

Look Pax, you believe in god and that is great. When I say I dont discuss religion in real life it is because it is pointless. Why should I ruin a perfectly good day or evening arguing about a topic that cannot be solved with words? And why would I purposely try and offend another person with my views?
Ofcourse every situation is different, there will be times when I may need to indulge in the topic, but even then I will not go to deep. All that matters is that I know I dont need god. I prefer to live life without the greed for an after life! Thats just me though and billions of others.
I may be wrong, who knows, but I cannot believe in the bible, it is to evil for me to accept as a friend! And I dont feel the urge to welcome some unknown and invisible entity into my heart, thats just the way it is.

But that does not mean that I disrespect your position - I just dont get it!
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cape town 06/10/2008 21:24:26
PAX

I will try and answer your question about the creation of the earth.

One day billions upon billions of years ago, there was this man in the void. He was a real man with arms, legs and a brain, just like you and I. Thats right, his image was the same as yours and he was suspended in the void that was space - he wasnt sure how he got there, but he was there and decided he needed to do stuff.
He was running out of breath and created oxygen, after all he had lungs like you and I, we are after all the same image.

He then sat about in the dark for 6.9 billion years and one day decided to make a dude just like himself. But before he did that he made lots of other stuff like light (sun) dark (moon) wait dark was always around. Anyway, then he made a gazillion insects, a gazillion birds and a gazillion fish. Then he made lots of animals and grass and sand and water. Then he made a man and a woman and even gave them names. Then he decided to write a book through man so that man knew who he was - a simple introduction would be suffice!
And then he probably went to another dimension and made some more planets and people and dogs and cats. I dunno, do you?

Is the bible here on Earth the same as the bible on other planets?
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cape town 06/10/2008 21:27:59
PAX

So if we look at every single family tree of every single pope, we will always come back to St Peter?

No questions, its an absolute certainty that EVERY pope will go back to St Peter? Even the ones who murdered and raped during the RCC's glorious years of Hitleresque type treatment of the non believer.

At least I can have this debate without being killed these days - phew thank goodness for science and reasonsing eh.
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Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 21:29:11
#142 Pax

I'm sure I'm saddened more by your response. You talk of intolerant secularists. Search out the tolerant kind.

Explanations - like the one your provided - that are as credible as shares in Bradford & Bingley.

Yet such scientific explanations provide the TVs, internet, internal combustion engines and cash registers that make the world go round. I've tried to explain how the earth was made. Now it's your turn. What is God made of?
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chugalong,

god's nipple 06/10/2008 21:35:12
Pax Vobiscum

If you were humble, then before demanding from innocent sweeties, to tell you where Earth came from and how it was created,

Perhaps you might explain to us where your God came from, and how it was created?

No-one has ever explained this to me before and I confess I cannot myself think of the answer.

Please don't insult me, I ask only to find out the truth and I am sure you seem so confident that you have a very sound and solid explanation that is neither incredible, ubelievable or tautological.

Yours most humbly

Chugalong (agnostic, i.e. don't know yet)
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cape town 06/10/2008 21:37:26
Oh PAX

Shame, have you hit a brick wall?

I was sure I was close to explaining the creation of the earth. Did I also get it wrong? hahahahahaha

Was god not made of skin and bone and sitting in the void? I thought he was our image?

Maybe what happened was that space men came here one day and cloned us, then they messed about with the longevity cell in the DNA structure and made us live for 900 years. Then whilst they flew their chariots in and out of the sky and fought eachother the clones wrote books and called them gods.
Then maybe they changed the DNA longevity cell back to a standard issue 70 to 120...Kinda like what we are going to do in the next 100 years!
Or maybe not......
Who is this god by the way?
Does he do tsunami's or just murder Egyptian babies?
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chugalong,

Woden's nappy 06/10/2008 21:38:02
Pleas also explain why everyone here talks about "God" as if there were only one? Have you never heard of Woden, Thor, Jove, Hermes, Qetzacoatl, Cernunnos, Nodens, Elron?
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chugalong,

Noden's Todger 06/10/2008 21:39:25
Sorry Pax (to be chummy for a second)

153 does not even begin to explain where your God came from or how it was created. I am eager to hear your comprehensive explanation.

Chuggy
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chugalong,

Sitting on a serpents knee 06/10/2008 21:46:51
I would hate to start imagining you didnt know who created Yaweh. Please disabuse me of this naive fantasy
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cape town 06/10/2008 21:47:06
PAX

Oh no, now you are resorting to name calling and jibes about education. And all this from an alledged man of science equipped with enough intellect to offer all of us precise enlightenment concerning the creation of the Earth.

I may not be equipped with unrivalled intellect, but I am able to think on a level that exceeds the boundaries to which your mind is shackled.

Say your prayers if you must, fall to your knees and worhsip, cultivate and honour your deity if need be. But do not sell this mythical holy entity for more than he or she is worth - it just isnt cricket
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chugalong,

going to bed with Athena... night nighty!!! 06/10/2008 21:47:35
160, they are all gods.
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 21:48:52
Ribbonman, merely because lots of people believe a thing dosn't make it true.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you with his noodley appendage.
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Tarr,

Lheath Mhas 06/10/2008 21:50:48
#62 tfstand---- My argument is more nuanced. I didn't say Hitler was an atheist. I stated he was a scientistic materialist, which often accompanies atheism but isn't necessarily identical. An imperialistic personality like Teddy Roosevelt and many of the elite in the Victorian and Edwardian periods shared the trait, though a less virulent strain. The fact that pre-moderns slaughtered under the banner of religion is hardly suprising. Mankind has always twisted the quest for the ground of reality into deformed ideologies. Religion can be readily twisted into such a deformation. However, the history of the twentieth century, has shown that the greatest destruction has been caused by the deformation of science into ideologies of scientistic materialism.
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cape town 06/10/2008 21:52:35
So when the church tells us that all the popes are direct descendents of this St Peter. Is this the same church who told us that the Earth was the centre of the universe?
And when Galileo ptoved otherwise, did the Pope allow him to share the glorious news with the masses? Was the truth and the glory of the universe allowed a voice?
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Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 06/10/2008 21:54:04
#153 Pax

"In fact, the various "scientific explanations" I've heard make the Jesus story sound quite plausible!"

So don't believe them. But I think you also missed my earlier point about ignorance. If you find the offered explanations unconvincing, why is faith in God a preferable alternative to remaining unknowing?
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Media 1,

06/10/2008 21:56:58
PAX

You mentioned lies in 126...

Shame has this debate become to tough for you to keep up with that you must now back track?

You have a bit of reading to do...Or tune into god and get a direct voice recording! Bet you cant.

Infact, I bet you cant shake his hand tonight. I bet you cant get him to appear in front of you - go on try it, cmon do it PAX!

Cmon Pax we are behind you, go for it - call on Yaweh, go on, I bet he doesnt speak back. But prove me wrong, go on.
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 21:58:58
The son - god
The father - god
The holy spirit - god

Thats three god's.....

What happened to Thor by the way? Did he gap it with all the other gods to some god heaven?
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06/10/2008 22:00:51
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:01:06
168
Perhaps the Ice Giants, the Jotunn.

Or in another pantheon the Titans.

Ganesha may of course be quite big having the head of an elephant, but since I have never seen a god, who knows?
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:05:49
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Of course Pax.

But I think my view has just as much relevance as an old ex-Nazi.

Pax tecum.
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 22:09:28
Ribbonman #182

So one Shamrock, three leaves one plant!

Hmm - is that like three Abrahamic religions, one understanding? hahahahahaha
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:11:12
180
Ribbonman, Media 1 is a unionist.

He has no soul;-)
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 22:15:39
Santa Claus vs God

1. Santa makes kids happy - God scares them
2. Santa claus has reindeers - God made reindeers
3. Santa doesnt kill Egyptian babies
4. Santa brings presents without asking you to sacrifice your oldest son only tell you its a sick joke
5. Santa Claus isnt 7 billion years
6. Santa Claus is cool - god is so uncool
7. Santa Claus is invisible - God is kinda like a silent speaking, supportive gasseous element(or so we are told)

KIDS LOVE SANTA - They could careless about their dad's benevolent and omnipotent deity
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 22:20:23
You know what I love more than the close relationship that exists between the athiests and the believers?

Its the relationship between the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims - see how they embrace each other, see how they pray together and believe in their one god. See how they avoid conflict by embracing one another, no matter whether gay, women or abortionists...

See how the people of these religious back grounds care for each other - Yes people, see the Muslims love the Jews and the Christians and vice versa. See them sharing their bibles with each other as if ONE!

Yes this religious relationship is more true than the one that exists between the non believer and the believer....
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:23:44
186
Forced? Perhaps. But he wore the Swastika.

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And Stockbridge.

Apparently.
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:31:21
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Pax
Did he not try and put money in young girls underwear?

Seems a bit pervy to me.
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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 22:33:50
I love how the catholics and the protestants embrace one another - not like those fighting athiests.

See those believers strap their bombs around their wastes to kill other believers - wow! You would think they would be after the non-believer but oh no.

I love how the pope sells off all the RCC valuables to support all the hungry kids of the world. I love the warmth that is felt between the faiths -

Hhaahahahahahaaha! the bible bashing armies of the world and their wars of terror on each other prevails!

Us poor peace loving athiests are forced to sit and watch all this mayhem unfold..Quite shocking really
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:37:38
199
Are there laces on jackboots?

You, of course, are missing my point.

Wriggle about all you want, but your pope wore a Swastika.

And of course after the war there were "soooo" many Germans who were forced to become Nazis.

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Media 1,

cape town 06/10/2008 22:40:13
Yes Ribbonman you are correct - time for departing!

Maybe I will say a prayer to the athiest god of the cosmos tonight - he's a god of support and peace! He also doesnt speak back, not ever. He also looks after us athiests and keeps us warm and sound. And he promised us life after life because this life isnt actually life at all - he made this life as life, but then made another life after this life so that we could all enjoy life after this life following death in this life.
The athiest god is nice, he also looks after all the athiest kids of the world - well some he starves to death, but we invent reasons to forgive him for that - you kmow how it goes.

Ok gnite.
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:45:48
210
Remarkable.

Can you tell more about me?

My religious upbringing perhaps, or the football team I support?

Or, indeed my education.
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2dogs in D.C.,

06/10/2008 22:57:45
"Why can't we mate with monkeys?" Well as always, I can only speak for myself. Maybe,like me, most people don't find them sexually attractive?
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:57:51
214
So you keep saying.

Ok then. Did your pope join an organization that had a big bendy cross as it's main symbol?

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tfstand,

Chorley 06/10/2008 22:58:56
Pax Vobiscum - rarely have I met such arrogance and ignorance from someone on a thread such as this. You refute any attempts at logical explanations by casting scorn on them, but you cannot come up with any reply that remotely makes sense.

You obviously have this blind faith in your god. What makes me laugh, well no, have pity more like, is your repeated attempts to say secularism tries to impose itself on religion. The RC church has been responsible for more unhappiness in the world than secularism ever could. From the terrors of the confession box, to the responsibility for Aids in Africa, from the sodomy of hundreds of young boys by priests (allowed to continue by Rome for fear of being found out).Perhaps it would be a good thing if secularism were able too impose itself. The RC church has done nothing but make itself rich from the fears of others and the power it has acquired.

I have been round the Vatican. The wealth is obsene, corridor after corridor of gold artifacts and valuable art work. The Pope could solve a lot poverty by selling these items. Why doesn't he?

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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 22:59:48
215
Shave one 2dogs.

They could then become President of the USA.
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 06/10/2008 23:01:23
-- Who or what created the earth?

The nebular theory was mooted. Which doesn't explain all we can observe nearby in out solar system such as the mighty rotational energy of Jupiter and the counter-rotation of Venus. This suggests the solar system has altered and changed - even during human-kind existence. Present astronomical observations show we're approaching another turbulant period (in galactic terms) but being ignorant we're doing our damnest to destabalise the climate and ecology of our home planet at point critical

It seems to me that higher intelligence exists - it designs ships for me (and obviously more intelligence has gone into designing and building a car than is usually possesed by the driver) so more intelligent galactic species seem quite reasonable and (to me) likely.

Scripture benefits from scientific scrutiny, but it primarely throughs the question of morality at us. That there are forces of light and darkness. The native peoples who encountered "western man" have sadly realised that we are neither "gods" nor "brothers" but merely barbarians with technology.

Who are destroying life on Earth. Take me to your leaders? of USUK? Get real. It's onto a new scottish enlightenment or to the gory beds we deserve.
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 23:11:10
219
Pax, you seem a reasonable person.

I, unlike you, do not worship the earth that this person walks on.

Anyone who participated in the Nazi holocaust "must" be suspect.

There are many...many, people who said they were forced "to become Nazis".

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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 23:18:47
223
I take my first sentence at 222 back.

You would vote for Palin, wouldn't you?
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2dogs in D.C.,

06/10/2008 23:22:07
"It was the most earnest ambition I ever had-Not that I ever really wanted to be a preacher,but because it never occurred to me that a preacher could be damned. It looked like a safe job." M.Twain. And I might add, involves no heavy lifting.
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 23:26:47
225
I have made no attempts to "justify" myself, I have tried merely to try and talk to a deranged person.

Who believes in fairies.And Popes.

Your Pope "IS" a fascist in all but name.

But that's their job, I suppose.



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JohnBowes,

06/10/2008 23:40:05
The Pope ought talk about the fact that many Catholic priests and monks abused children and his church covered it up.
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JohnBowes,

06/10/2008 23:41:22
The Pope ought talk about the fact that many Catholic priests and monks abused children and his church covered it up.

AND it was only in the late 1960s that the Catholic Church accepted that the earth moved around the sun. Beyond belief.
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JohnBowes,

06/10/2008 23:42:52
Book of Revelations; call no one father but your father in heaven.

How many pedophile priests were on school boards?
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2dogs in D.C.,

06/10/2008 23:45:26
*218-Conan-I believe that's already been done?
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 23:45:29
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Not much chance of that John.
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Apparently not of ardent supporters like Pax Vobiscum.
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 23:46:49
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Heh. Dubyah by any chance?
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Conan the Librarian™,

06/10/2008 23:49:18
232
Anyhow, how are the dugs?

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2dogs in D.C.,

07/10/2008 00:00:08
Conan-Yep, the Dub. Dugs are great,nosing me as we chat. (Slobber,too,but thats life.) Ever notice hoe "We are all god critters" But dogs NEVER argue religion or politics? Although, myself, I could do w/out that whole Butt sniffing thing. Be well, 2Dogs.
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2dogs in D.C.,

07/10/2008 00:03:32
Though-that is-dyslecsic fingers in the dark. (Can't spell, either.)
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Conan the Librarian™,

07/10/2008 00:06:35
Mine are sleeping, lined up on the couch.

Aw.

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Conan the Librarian™,

07/10/2008 00:12:40
237
Twadugs
There has to be an X there somewhere...
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2dogs in D.C.,

07/10/2008 01:13:08
Oh,Yeah.Sorry.Stupid fingers. Your dogs rule the furniture too? Glad to know.I'm not alone in my servitude.
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Pilrig,

Livingston 07/10/2008 06:08:46
Jesus saves.... but Riordan scores the rebound !
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El Sabio,

Sibbertoft 07/10/2008 06:11:53
What about the attitude of the Vatican to contraception?

Everyone should be allowed to take part in the banquet of life - what if there is not enough food to go around on these banqueting tables?
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tfstand,

Chorley 07/10/2008 07:39:23
Pax Vobiscum - your replies rely purely on evasion. You ridicule anyone who attempts to give some reasoned scientific response as to how the world was formed. Its obvious that science can only speculate at the present, but tiny pieces of of a huge jigsaw are being put into place. It may be the CERN project will advance our knowledge a few more notches.

What do you say about the formation of the universe, countless billions of planets stretching almost to infinity? Some god created it in seven days, no doubt. Now thats really logical compared to scientific proposals isn't it!

Science works on the basis of investigation, testing, experiment, acknowledging when something doesn't work, looking for alternatives. Not dogma or blind belief.

I repeat, give me some evidence to back up your beliefs, because you think you know 'the truth' but your posts show you don't.

Fortunately, very slowly, Western Europeans are realising the spuriousness of religion and are rejecting it. I don't think anything you have said on this forum will stop that.

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bwriter,

Kirkcaldy 07/10/2008 11:14:05
I prefer Father Christmas myself. He is a jolly chap with a big white beard, a red suit and a happy laugh. He zooms around the world every year handing out gifts to everyone, spreading good will and happiness.
Yes...I know he's a mythical figure, but so is God and he's a non-runner in my book.
Anyone ever thought about starting up a Church of Santa? I'm sure it would take off.
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Ayewhitever,

Arse 07/10/2008 12:01:43
If God exists then may he strike YOU all down now with great power and flashes of lighting!!!!
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Ayewhitever,

Robina 07/10/2008 12:02:23
hellllo? anyone there?
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Ayewhitever,

Robina 07/10/2008 12:08:44
anyone?
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Mr. Richard C. Normuss,

07/10/2008 13:00:42
#13

Good point,

As soon as “religion’s” mentioned in the press all the nutter's come out of the woodwork.

Many moons ago the Roman Catholic Church commanded huge power in the western world primarily because of the peoples lack of education & fear of the unknown, this power was not always put to good use, often resulting in war & death.

That doesn’t happen so much nowadays, with exception to certain Muslim fundamentalists’ who appear to use religion as an excuse to kill ‘other people’ because the ‘other people’ don’t do what they want.

People located in the free world have been taught to think for themselves and question the unknown resulting in a sceptism arising. When you see Priest’s, Rabbi’s et al, dressed in strange outfits proclaiming the ‘end is nigh’…’you’ll all go to hell’ you can only shake your head in disbelief.

Religion, various God’s, miraculous entities are all created by man primarily for control of man. If you wish to practise a religion do it in your own home but don’t inflict it on your neighbour.
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Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 07/10/2008 14:37:31
What has god got to do with organised religion? Don't the Zealots realise you can't take ownership of consciousness?
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Keith G,

Hull 07/10/2008 17:06:40
@55 , actually a humanist yes :) but also a follower of the Fsm , may his noodley appendage touch you when you need most , Faith is personal , for those that need it , then good for you :) as for me personally , i believe that there is something to faith , i have my belief in what i believe , but that good manner and respect for your fellow Humans should be behaviour that we all follow and teach future generations
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tfstand,

Chorley 07/10/2008 18:19:41
Ribbonman (250, 250 & 251) - the Queen pays taxes on her income. She is not in the top ten richest women in the world.

The Vatican refuses to pay taxes in Italy, despite its use of all the infrastructure in that country.

If you think Pax V won his arguments you are one seriously deluded person - he constantly made a fool of himself and showed himself for what he is - a blind religious fanatic.

It appears you are the same as you automatically think that because someone disagrees with you they must be Protestant. I am an atheist and humanist. Protestantism means nothing to me, although it doesn't appear to have a leader who tries to shove religion down people's throats!

You call me a bigot - tell me what part of 217 is incorrect - Aids in Africa? Young boys? The wealth of the Vatican?

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cape town 07/10/2008 19:13:38
There cant be a god, because if there was a god there would be a god...But there is no god, nowhere!
Just lots of empty space out there in the void..
Heaven eh! lol
You gotta laugh, cmon you really need to chuckle about the claim that there is a heaven - out there in the void there is a place called heaven for people to go live after they have lived.
So you live, then after you lived you live again, because the life you lived was not life but death, which comes after life and leads to more life after life with the guy who created life..It makes perfect sense.
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Media 1,

cape town 07/10/2008 20:41:59
How was the Earth created?
I would say one of two things.

1. There was this creature called god floating in the void. It was of the same image as man, arms and legs etc. I doubt it knew how it got to the void but at some stage it decided to make an Earth and a Mars and a Jupiter etc...It wrote a bible for all these planets and then made man, animals and other creatures!

Then he made man not to believe in god, but some men to believe in god. He made some men believe in a place called heaven and made others not to believe in a place called heaven - he made life, but then created more life after that life because life is not enough I guess.

OR

There need be no explanation - nothing at all! Kinda like the cosmos owes us nothing....not so difficult to accept if you are capable of accepting this life without the wanting and greed for another when this one is done.
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cape town 07/10/2008 20:47:36
And what is a bigot?

Could a bigot be a person or an organisation who will murder you if you dont accept their religion as the one true religion?

Could a bigot be a person or organisation that only permits people of ONE religion to lead them?

Could a bigot be a person or organisation that lies to its own in order to protect its secrets?

Maybe a bigot is a protestant who dislikes a catholic or vice versa - or maybe its a muslim who hates a christian or a jew! whatever the reason, religion is at the centre of the hatred known as bigotry.
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tfstand,

Chorley 07/10/2008 22:47:25
Pax V - with every comment you make you dig a deeper hole for yourself. Look back at your posts and tell me if you have answered one question you have been asked. All you do is deflect the responsibility of having to come up with some evidence for your views by replying with inane questions and calling people idiots and bigots.

A perfect example is your reply (256) to my questions in 254. Answer the damn questions why don't you? the 'truth' is that you dare not because it would expose the Pope for what he is. I repeat ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!!

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Mr. Richard C. Normuss,

08/10/2008 12:16:35
# 258...

Tam,

What exactly do you mean, "’Adolf’ would have been proud of me”. Is it not the right of every man to have the choice of having religious claptrap fired at him from all angles, groups of people who insist he change & follow their religious doctrine, to say no?

Are you not advocating denying the freedom of choice?

“The lunatics have taken over the asylum!”

Hoping the above has cheered you up a bit.

Dixy.

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Mr. Richard C. Normuss,

08/10/2008 12:37:20
#255

Media person,

You mustn’t have seen the film "A matter of life & Death". That film had “Big J” giving a monologue at the start, culminating in David Nivens’ trial located in heaven.

NB. Heaven appeared to be somewhere in the void alongside the stars & planets!
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Bemused and above it all,

08/10/2008 14:48:27
Surely 'god' died of shame when they elected this Waffen SS Youth Captain as his appointend representative on earth?
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/10/2008 23:12:33
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Ribbonman
Wiped the floor? Oh ye of too much faith;-)

266
Or you merely ignore the whole basis of scientific theory, for the big bearded gent in the sky that created stuff and ran away.

Since nobody has seen him since.
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tfstand,

Chorley 09/10/2008 07:30:14
PV (266) Amazing ignorance again. Being secular is not connected to belief - it simply means someone or something not connected, not controlled, by religion. Atheism means a lack of belief in gods.

Again you evade the issue of answering questions. You have asked posters several times about the origin of the world and they have attempted answers. Have you answered any questions - not on your nelly!



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