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Police criticise under-21 drink ban



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Published Date: 08 October 2008
FRESH doubt was cast on ministerial plans to raise the age limit for off-sales to 21 last night when it emerged that the police do not believe the scheme is workable.
The Scottish Police Service has written to the Scottish Government, warning that its proposal to raise the age limit from 18 to 21 is wrong and will be ineffective.

Scotland's senior police officers have told ministers they believe that other parts of the Scottish Government's alcohol strategy will help in tackling Scotland's binge-drinking culture, but not the new age-limit scheme.

Opposition from the police follows similar criticism from students, retailers – some of whom demonstrated at Holyrood – and from all the opposition parties in the parliament, who came together last week to vote against the proposal.

Ministers insisted after last week's vote that they would continue to pursue the plans but the intervention of Scotland's police officers – in their official response to the Scottish Government's consultation – now makes it much harder for ministers to get their plans approved.

The idea of raising the age limit to 21 for off-sales is a central part of the SNP's alcohol strategy. Other parts include: separate aisles for alcohol sales in shops; curbs on advertising; bans on giveaway promotions; and a social-responsibility fee, charging retailers for some of the damage done by drinkers.

According to the results of the consultation process, published yesterday, the plans have attracted a mixed response.

Some organisations, notably health trusts, drug and alcohol campaigners and health experts, supported all the Scottish Government's proposals.

On the other side, however, the views were equally strident.

The Scottish Police Service was supportive of the plans to crack down on promotional deals for alcohol; cautious about minimum pricing – supporting it in principle but expressing concerns about its legality; but firmly against the new age-limit plans. The Scottish Police Service said that licensees could be as young as 18.

Its submission stated: "You could have someone running an off-sales premises, with all the concomitant responsibilities, but who could not himself purchase any alcohol for his, or any other, off-sales premises."

The police submission also warned that the proposal risked "demonising and alienating perfectly law-abiding 18 to 20-year-olds" and was the wrong approach.

In total, there were 530 responses submitted, 260 from individuals, 215 from organisations and 55 from MSPs and other sources.

Shona Robison, the public health minister, said ministers would take the responses into account – yet were committed to driving ahead with their plans.

She said: "We believe that raising the off-sales purchase age would cut the level of uncontrolled, open-air and home drinking which we know can result in anti-social behaviour.

"Meanwhile, our proposal for a minimum price for a unit of alcohol will target the high-strength products currently sold for 'pocket money prices' that cause the most damage in our communities and to our health as a nation.

"We must take action now to reverse the heavy toll excessive alcohol consumption is taking on our nation's health and wellbeing."

Who says what on SNP strategy

FOR

NHS TAYSIDE: "Fully supports" the Scottish Government's proposals to end giveaway promotions and the plan to introduce minimum pricing for alcohol. Although the health board expressed some concern that the change in the age limit to 21 for off-sales might not be the most effective course of action, it did not oppose the move.

ABERDEENSHIRE ALCOHOL AND DRUG ACTION TEAM: Called for an increase in the price of strong drink with a reduction in the price of low-alcohol drinks. It conceded that raising the age limit for off-sales to 21 would be "difficult to enforce" but backed plans for a "social responsibility fee".

ALCOHOL FOCUS SCOTLAND: Said there was "substantial" evidence that raising the price of alcohol helped reduce alcohol misuse. It also claimed that discounts encouraged people to drink more, so supported minimum pricing for alcohol.

AGAINST

VISITSCOTLAND: The tourism body warned that the plans to prevent off-licences from offering free drink might prevent distilleries offering complimentary drams at the end of visitor tours – which would harm Scotland's tourist industry.

LAW SOCIETY OF SCOTLAND: Raised concerns about the plans to introduce minimum pricing for alcohol. The society pointed out that the "regulation of goods and supply of services" was reserved to Westminster and that this could prevent the Scottish Government from taking action in this area.

BRIDGEND STORES, ISLE OF ISLAY: The owner of this small shop selling food, newspapers and alcohol warned of the difficulties in the government's plans to introduce separate aisles for alcohol and other products. "Separate checkouts would be a major problem for small, independent


The full article contains 790 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 October 2008 9:44 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 00:05:32
Unfortunately the police wouldn't back anything that didn't raise them extra money - it doesn't fit into their cost/crime analysis.

Motorists = great cash for plod

'Real' crime = not profitable enough for them

Not that I agree with the 21 proposal but how on earth is it feasible to police the 18 rule and not a 21 rule -- surely you just change the numbers on the bits of paper ??!!

Then again everything has to be very complicated and expensive these days according to government sources even when it is not !
2

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 08/10/2008 00:10:02

The police are supposed to be enforcing the law.

If they enforced the laws on underage drinking effectively there would be little need to even think about raising the age limit.
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

08/10/2008 00:24:51
Nevsky what are the age limits for drinking in Norway?

Everyone loves your Norway Stories.
4

,

08/10/2008 00:35:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Conan the Librarian™,

08/10/2008 00:35:35
3
Have you any Freedonia stories Rufus?

6

,

08/10/2008 00:39:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

,

08/10/2008 00:47:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 01:03:19

The Police are quite correct on this issue!

It IS The most stupidest proposal ever, beyond,...

...'Beggars Believe'!

At 20years old, you can be married with 2.2 Children, have a respectable Job, have mortgage, vote, fight for you Country!

And They Have the,...'Dammed out Cheek' To Say!,...

Ye 'Canny Purchase Booze'!


..'STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DONT SHINE'! Is what I say!

AND Sooo Will our 18-21year Olds!

And BTW!!! They, Whatever you Propose, will have their Booze!

..Muppet's!,, Absolute,, Muppet's! The Lot of them, that think banning sales of "booze" to the under 21s will make a miniscule difference!

LISTEN AND LEARN!!!

Charles Speaks the Truth!!!
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 01:12:09


bring them on ~9,

Saw our Mr Salmond, on Live Parliament yesterday,...

....'blabbering' and Laughing as Usual!

Quite the 'Commedien',...

'Whisky Flask' tucked in 'Pocket',...HUH,? :D
10

Guga II,

Rockall 08/10/2008 04:02:25
Kenny MacAskill is a total waste of space, and has brought his former New Labour Stalinist ideas to his present position. Wee Eck should get rid of him before he does any more damage to the SNP.

11

Finnzz,

Offshore 08/10/2008 06:24:52
"Police officials involved in the trials have been cautiously positive regarding their outcome. Chief Inspector Bob Beaton, who led the crackdowns in Stenhousemuir and Larbert, argued that the anecdotal evidence was encouraging."

I wonder what Beaton is saying now. Is the vested interests in the drinks trade now flexing its muscles.

#11 You really want to do something about your halitosis.

12

Grahamski,

Falkirk 08/10/2008 07:14:09
The SNP have stumbled very badly on this issue. Pride comes before a fall and the nats have obviously convinced themselves that they are fire-proof. The idea of restricting off-sales to over 21s is impractical and quite frankly bonkers. And everybody knows it.
This should be of concern to supporters of the SNP, Mr Salmond's administration have been damaged by this. When he was elected Mr Salmond bragged that the SNP would need to be 'fleet of foot' in government. With this issue and the catastrophic 'free meals' debacle they have been more slack of jaw.
13

Rufus T. Firefly,

08/10/2008 07:14:29
This would never have happened in Norway.
14

Nevsky,

Moscow 08/10/2008 07:31:07
15 Rufus#

You would never have happened in Norway!
15

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 07:32:54
8 Charles
Apparently, if the proposal becomes law, a 20 year old would be able to own and run an off-license but would not be able to buy the goods in his own shop.
16

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 08/10/2008 07:50:24
"separate aisles for alcohol sales in shops"

Of all the proposals, this one makes the most sense to me. It would remind us that buying a bottle of vodka is a bit different from buying the cornflakes.
17

Grahamski,

Falkirk 08/10/2008 07:51:12
So, a real problem for the nats on Saturday. Who to support, Scotland or the country we aspire to, the glorious Norway? Maybe those clever vikings could find a way that we both win...oh yes, Norway, it's lovely and clever!
18

drunken proffet,

Tassy 08/10/2008 07:53:28
Raise the price. Back in the sixties beer was cheap, whisky and spirits were dear and the alcoholics drank meths. Mind you it is only sour grapes, I am paying occassionally eighteen pounds a bottle for Ballantynes and being a pensioner I can affirm that it does cut down your consumption.
19

Kyle N Carrick,

08/10/2008 08:02:16
26 Trolling fuddster
20

Grahamski,

Falkirk 08/10/2008 08:04:10
27
Sorry, is that gaelic?
21

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 08/10/2008 08:10:39
Health trusts, drug and alcohol campaigners and health experts all support the Scottish Government's proposals.

VisitScotland, Bridgend Stores of Islay, Iain Gray, Annabel Goldie and the booze business are against them. The Police and the Law Society of Scotland make a couple of techical objections.

There you have the arguments, and I know whose opinions I trust - the people who have to deal daily with the appalling cost to Scotland and its children of its addiction to, and abuse of alcohol, not politicians trying for short-term political advantage, and those with a personal interest in selling it to all comers.

The auld, auld Roman question must be asked - "Cui bono?" when considering those against the proposals. Cui bono is normally used in the context of who benefits from a proposal, but its literal meaning is "Who dies?". We know who benefits from the irresponsible sale of alcohol and we also know who dies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
22

Snowy Bottles,

08/10/2008 08:17:47
"VISITSCOTLAND: The tourism body warned that the plans to prevent off-licences from offering free drink might prevent distilleries offering complimentary drams at the end of visitor tours – which would harm Scotland's tourist industry."


Surely the "Free Complimentary Dram" isalready included in the price of the tour ticket?

Mountains and mole hills!
23

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 08/10/2008 08:20:28
Why, oh why don't the police enforce current legislation? If an 18 age limit sees 10 year olds hospitalised because of drink - what impact will a 21 limit have on that?

A failure on a test purchase should result in a charge, not a warning. Repeated failures should result in a loss of licence.
24

drunken proffet,

Tassy 08/10/2008 08:22:59
There is the rumour that the Norwegians distill their own and remove the impurities that commercial distillers include to improve the flavour.
25

Ugly George,

edinburgh 08/10/2008 08:28:17
18 Dave
"Raise the age of getting a license then"

But this is where you run into further legal problems. 18 year olds are allowed to hold shares in companies. So if an 18 year old has shares in Tescos then the 18 year old has part ownership of Tesco's licence to sell alcohol. Even if an 18 year old does not have shares in Tesco directly, he/she may well have them as part of an ISA investment.
26

Snowy Bottles,

Norway 08/10/2008 08:28:26
I will tell you . In Norway you can only buy beer (or Cider of a similar strength) in Supermarkets. Anything stronger /invluding wine) has to be bought in a Government shop, which are few and far between at a price set by the Government! These Government shops close at 3pm on Saturday Closed on Sunday. Not open on National holidays nor election days. There are some Kommunes (or districts) where you can only buy beer. But people here seem to have better things to do than gettin' blootered!

Oh.. I will be supporting Scotland!
27

BIG EYE,

Paisley 08/10/2008 08:28:35
43% of young offenders had been drinking buckfast before the offences took place.

Solution seems simple enough to me!
28

Rufus T. Firefly,

08/10/2008 08:29:17
Note to the editor: Can we get this newspaper renamed to "The Norwegian Man"?

It would keep all the Nats happy.
29

Grahamski,

Falkirk 08/10/2008 08:34:23
32
You seem to share the same skills of inaccurate precis as Jeffrey Archer. Most of the Scottish Executive's proposals have been accepted and indeed supported by parliament.
The SNP have become unstuck when they attempted supeficially attractive and populist policies - no change there then.
30

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 08/10/2008 08:39:29
Of course it's not workable - everybody apart from MacAskill and Robison knows this.
31

Mikey,

08/10/2008 09:05:00
Rufus and bring them on....same person! Living in the fantasy land of Freedonia where the monarch rules by divine right and stupidity is elevated.

This is the type of moronic behaviour we will have to put up with if we don't get independence soon.

As to the subject of the story, uphold the laws we have and don't introduce laws that aren't needed! Perhaps if we stopped granting liquor licences to every wee corner shop that asks for one, we'd succeed!
32

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 08/10/2008 09:07:35
45

Mikey, what about the supermarkets?
33

drunken proffet,

Tassy 08/10/2008 09:12:49
#41 Everything is relative, if you remove the first and third distillation, ie up to 78C and over 82C you tend to remove methyl alcohol and the fusel oils. I believe Glen Morangie only uses the middle cut so you should be able to drink that without a hangover. If you drink your distillate at 37.5% in moderation you will not have a hangover. If you drink over 600mls at 75% proof you should get a discount on your cremation. This all rumours of course, nobody is allowed to distill their own booze now a days.
34

Snowy Bottles,

08/10/2008 09:26:26
# 49

The Norway equation will be delt with on Saturday! Don't know why you have a bee in your bonnet about it!
m
35

yolanda,

08/10/2008 09:36:33
I'm not sure that raising the age limit to purchase alcohol in off sales is a good move. However, given that the government seem determined to press ahead with it, believing that legislation is the answer, I don't understand why they have no intention of raising the legal age of alcohol consumption from 5 years old, which is simply ridiculous.

Many parents nowadays are allowing their young teenagers (particularly females) to drink alcohol at home. Such parents may be doing this in an attempt to be able to supervise their daughter/son's consumption in the safety of their own home, and the law allows them to do this. Surely a sensible move by the government would be to make the giving of alcohol to minors illegal. They don't seem keen to touch this side of things though, despite the increase in young womens' drinking. Surely nobody could dispute the fact that giving a young child alcohol should be illegal, yet the government aren't bringing in legislation to deal with it. Why not?
36

Destroy the Planet,

08/10/2008 09:37:25
Ha ha, SNP, the Tartan Talaban.
37

Grahamski,

Falkirk 08/10/2008 09:42:59
53
Or good looks.
38

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 08/10/2008 10:21:18
42 Grahamski
I am well aware of the status of the other proposals - the article is about the under-21 drinks purchase ban, and so are my comments.

This sensible measure is opposed because it poses a real threat to the ability of unscrupulous traders to sell alcohol to young people. It is supported by the NHS professionals and those who work with the young people and the communities damaged by cheap alcohol because it will have a real effect of the problem.

No amount of nitpicking about it being inconsistent with age limits in other areas and problems of implementation will obscure these facts, nor will the cynical expediency of the unionist parties in opposing it to score cheap political points.

I worked in the alcohol industry for 14 years in the northwest and the north east of England and in Scotland. That was twenty years ago, and the company I worked for, and the industry in general, still had some sense of their responsibilities to young people and the community. Since then, some alcohol retailers have displayed the same amoral expediency in pursuit of profit as the financial industry, damaging the fabric of our lives in the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
39

The Tin Man,

08/10/2008 10:50:40
Scotland also has a problem with teenage pregnancy. Next, our elected betters will want to raise the age of consent to 19 in order to 'do something' about the problem.
40

Embra Don,

08/10/2008 11:20:23
#10 Charles Linskaill
#11 bring them on

Thank you for these considered contributions. They sound like the giggled gossip from a playground huddle - lets call someone names and maybe the others will like us......

Reading them reminds me how glad I am not to be a unionist any more.
41

Embra Don,

08/10/2008 11:24:28
#57 The Tin Man

Possibly reducing mid teen drinking would help the pregnancy issue too ..... not to mention foetal alcohol syndrome which is rife.
42

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 11:31:10
The best solution is to leave the laws as they stand and deal with the law-breakers using existing laws.

Only yesterday, in the this very paper, it was reported that having police on the beat was a very effective deterrent to trouble makers. Need I say more?

You have to look at the reason why kids as young as 12 are getting drunk in parks. The reason here is clear---over-zealous enforcement of pub age limits. This drives the 16-17 year-olds out of the protective and safe environment of a pub and forces them to drink illicitly wherever they can.

They are then joined by even younger kids and being inexperienced in the ways of the world, they are easily pursuaded to let them join in as well.

If 16-17 year-olds could get served in pubs (under suffrance) then the even younger kids would simply go home when it got dark as there would be no-one around to give them drink.

Instead of introducing new laws that would hit the innocent, we should be looking at relaxing the draconian enforcement that has been a hallmark of stupid labour and has actually led to this situation in the first place. Law-making and enforcement are very delicate issues. Applying laws with a rod of iron and indiscriminately enforcing them using sledgehammer tactics does not work and never will do.

We need to scrap the law that demands recognised ID and start applying some intelligence to who, under 18, we turn a blind eye to in pubs. Then, and only then, will the situation improve.
43

bluehead,

edinburgh 08/10/2008 11:39:33
the SNP should stop being stupid,trying to pass a law
that will not work, it is a waste of time and money,just enforce the laws that are already in existence there are a million other things need addressed first,I voted for SNP thinking the would bring a new approach but they seem just as dismal as the rest of political parties.
44

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 11:39:37
And what Peter Curran says backs up what I say.

"...the industry in general, still had some sense of their responsibilities to young people and the community. Since then, some alcohol retailers have displayed the same amoral expediency in pursuit of profit as the financial industry, damaging the fabric of our lives in the process."

It works both ways. 20 years ago, those in the alcohol industry (by which I take it to mean pubs and bars) were reasonably free to make their own decisions as to who they served. They had responsibility for their own actions and as such felt that they were contributing to the community in general.

The landlord could make a call as to whether to serve someone he suspected to be under-age on the basis of personal experience, amongst other things. This has now been taken away due to the law stipuating that he MUST only accept approved ID.

As a result, is it surprising that the trade has turned to merely thinking about profit? They are no longer free to contribute to the community due to the raft of laws and regulations that have been imposed upon them.
45

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 11:47:01
"VISITSCOTLAND: The tourism body warned that the plans to prevent off-licences from offering free drink might prevent distilleries offering complimentary drams at the end of visitor tours which would harm Scotland's tourist industry."

What a stupid comment from Visit Scotland !
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 11:48:54
"BRIDGEND STORES, ISLE OF ISLAY: The owner of this small shop selling food, newspapers and alcohol warned of the difficulties in the government's plans to introduce separate aisles for alcohol and other products. "Separate checkouts would be a major problem for small, independent"

This one brought a smile to my face. McHamish was obviously tasked to get 3 "fors" and 3 "againsts". It strikes me he failed on the latter.
47

Vincent-W,

08/10/2008 11:48:56
Apply existing laws!

Recently I witnessed a smart, bright young couple, buying their food shopping at the supermarket. They seemed around 20 - 23 years old. They wanted to to buy one bottle of beer and one bottle of breezer. A very modest acquisition, likely to be consumed at home highly unlikely to fuel a spate of violence or vandalism.

Yet, ten minutes later, I walked over a bridge where four sixteen to eighteen year olds were drinking wine and vodka from bottles, although clearly already drunk. These kids are already known to the police, courts and local harassed populace. I would predict a high likelihood of these kids upsetting someone during the course of the evening.



48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 11:55:32
#18 Dave

I must admit I was surprised to learn that an 18 year old could hold an off-sale licence. 21 (or over) would seem a more appropriate age.
49

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 11:58:55
#37 george

Was that meant to be a serious point? You are losing it my friend !
50

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 12:18:43
#3 Age limits in Norway.
Sorry to take so long but had to conact our friend over there.
Seems that you can buy and drink beer and wine at 18 and spirits at 20.
You also have to take into consideration that you have to buy wine and spirits from the "vinmonopol" shops which are few and far between. There is no comparison with the off sales system which exists in Scotland.
51

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 08/10/2008 12:21:08
In the local Co-Op here, they have had the "if you look under 21 you will be asked for ID" signs up for a long time. A local pub has the same but for people that look "under 25".

Result? No kids attempting to buy drink in either said pub or Co-Op. I think the SNP idea is a good one. I certainly dont hear alternatives from the other parties just criticiasm of the SNP.

Keeping it at 18 in pubs means that all drinkers are ID'ed first. Increasing it in shops makes it harder for kids to get their hands on drink.

Surely thats better than 15 year old swigging 20/20 and buckie in the local park and falling over sick?
52

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 08/10/2008 12:22:07
Don't agree with the police but I also do not agree with this policy.

Instead of spending a fortune changing the system, complicating the system and criminalising normal 18 year olds. Try this RADICAL IDEA.

Get police out of the Car/Van/Police Station. and Walking about the streets.

Divide them up based on need. Bad area's = lots of police. Good Area's = less police.

Give them a dedicated area and get on with it.

If the kids can buy Smack/Crack from Asia and South America. I am quite confident there will be a viable market for someone to sell them drink too.

Total nanny state nonsense. SNP are wrong on this policy.

The problem is the way we drink and where. Ban Buckfast. That would be a good start.
53

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 08/10/2008 12:26:26
Prohibition has never worked in human history on any commodity. It just increases the price of the goods and more demands on criminal justice system.
Creates criminal gangs makes lots of illegal black market money, violence and trouble. Wastes police time, court time, prison spaces, prison staff costs.

Like the next nanny state idea. banning smoking in a car!


54

An Greumach Mor,

Scotland 08/10/2008 12:32:49
#63 Connaughtboy - Visit Scotland

Totally agree. Stupid comment by visit scotland. I have never seen many 18 year old on the Whiskey Trail. Anyway the legislation is about selling alchohol not giving it away. Surely Hamish could have made up something a little better.

eg. It will affect the Stag party tourism
55

Lock,

08/10/2008 12:51:00
'Ban Buckfast. That would be a good start.'

What would banning Buckfast help with exactly?

I know - increase sales and market share in substitute products. Great idea! Less money for the Christians. How it will improve society I don't know, though.
56

Rambo.the.Jambo,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 12:58:57
FFS what's it got to do with the police?????

Parliament passes legislation, and the police uphold the law. Crown office prosecutes, not the police, so why all the fuss.

'The police submission also warned that the proposal risked "demonising and alienating perfectly law-abiding 18 to 20-year-olds" and was the wrong approach.'

My @rse. If 18 to 20 year olds don't try and break the law by buying alcohol then they will not be committing a criminal offence and therefore will not demonised and alienated.

Commonsense prevails.


57

The French Girl,

Lyon, France 08/10/2008 12:59:19
Hello, I'm a french student so please forget my mistakes !

I read this article, and I really don't understand why the police does not agree with the raising age limit !
58

Scotsman in Dublin,

08/10/2008 12:59:45
The SNP should be applauded in bringing the debate and the problem of alchohol to the fore but I dont think raising the age to 21 is the answer. Considering that a lot of the problems are coming from kids who are not even 18, i dont see how raising the ago to 21 will make a difference. Massive fines or jail sentences should be in place for shops who supply alchohol to minors, if they do this alone and enforce it, that would have to have an effect.
59

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 08/10/2008 13:08:45
Let's nail the prohibition parallel that is being argued by the opponents of this legislation. No one is proposing prohibition or anything like it - what is proposed is legislative control. If there is no control of the sale of alcohol, especially to young people, we return to the scenes of Hogarth's 'Gin Lane'.

The responsible, regulated alcohol industry is a fundamental part of the economy of Scotland, and of the social life of the country. It must be supported and encouraged, but only within a legislative control framework. The present abuses, if unchecked, will lead to an inevitable backlash, and like all backlashes, it will be extreme.

We don't have to look very far for the parallel - the banking and finance industries for decades have been running riot, with all criticism being silenced by those who profited by it, including politicians. Now the piper must be paid, and the industry faces a regulatory regime that will resemble their worst nightmares. And who will pay the piper? Not the rich, privileged villains who caused the chaos, but ordinary people - those who have suffered and can least afford to pay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
60

The_Reiver,

08/10/2008 13:19:21
Perhaps the SNP should reintroduce the 'Pledge'. All SNP members and supporters should sign it and renounce the devil drink and let the rest of us get on with our lives in peace without being told what to do by a load of authoritarian proto-fascists. Anyhow if the police don't support this stupid law how is it going to be er.. policed?

Put the price up by all means; that has been shown to work to some extent in other very boring countries like Sweden although is apparently not necessary in more civilized countries like Italy and Greece but stop victimizing honest law-abiding working people and arrest the real trouble makers.
61

The_Reiver,

08/10/2008 13:22:38
#77
especially to young people, we return to the scenes of Hogarth's 'Gin Lane'. WHY?

Most of the drunks I see in the terminal stages of chirrhosis are middle-aged, middle-class people who can afford to drink like hell
62

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 08/10/2008 13:30:32
79 The Reiver
The middle aged, middle class drunks dying of cirrhosis are not, by and large, rioting in our city and town centres, and posing a problem of public order. They pose a different kind of problem, not one that a ban on under-21 purchase will solve.

Don't slide away from the current problem.
63

The_Reiver,

08/10/2008 13:34:26
#11

You're quite correct now that you've mentioned it. The said FM is showing early symptoms of Korsakoff's disease.
64

The_Reiver,

08/10/2008 13:35:13
#80 No they only cost the NHS millions of pounds.
65

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 13:41:21
#75:

"...I really don't understand why the police does not agree with the raising age limit!"

Because they can see that it will only target those who have done no wrong and will therefore make the job of the Police even harder... And they'll STILL have to deal with the young drunks in the park.
66

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 13:50:56
#71 This is not "prohibition" though.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 13:53:12
#78 Your posts are becoming more trite. Keep it sensible !
68

Snowy Bottles,

08/10/2008 14:38:15
81
The_Reiver

Cirrhosis of the liver is a cumulative disease, so the effects of excessive drinking at a young age only become apparent in middle aged people. So by discouraging young whose livers are still growing from drinking stands them in better stead in the future.
69

The_Reiver,

08/10/2008 15:32:46
#86

Yes but it's predominant amongst spirit drinkers of moderate to high income. The incidence cirrhosis in Scotland rose by 106% from 1980 t0 2002, the figures for England were and increase of 86% in ALL other European countries it decreased regardless of licensing laws and age restrictions. The principal factor according to the most extensive study ever conduced into the epidemiology of cirrhosis is as follows and I quote: "Autopsy series published
after 1945 indicate that roughly 50-90% of all cases
of cirrhosis are due to excessive alcohol consumption
in regions where the production of alcoholic
beverages is important economically". In other words, it is direly related to the Scotch Whisky industry. If the Scottish government really cared about this problem they would not target the young, they should target the Whisky Industry. It may well be that people fist acquire drinking habits at a young age but there is absolutely no evidence that the proposal to bar 18-21 year olds will alleviate this problem. On the contrary, the weak evidence that exists suggests that it may exacerbate it.

Obviously this is not the sort of evidence that the Scottish government want to hear. Whisky Production is probably the last manufacturing industry of any significance that we possess.


Autopsy series published
after 1945 indicate that roughly 50-90% of all cases
of cirrhosis are due to excessive alcohol consumption
in regions where the production of alcoholic
beverages is important economically
70

Alan B,

08/10/2008 15:38:33
It seems like a silly critism of the police to say it is unworkable. There may be alot of critisms of the proposals but being workable does not seem like one.

It is simple. An offlicence cannot sell to someone who is under 21. Simple. They would ask for ID to ensure the age of the purchaser in a similar manner to asking for age identification of someone that is meant to be 18 at the moment.
71

The_Reiver,

08/10/2008 15:38:56
#85

I'm deadly serious. What are you?
72

bill-alba,

fife 08/10/2008 15:45:53
the police are saying its unworkable as they haven't got to grips with the law as it currently stands.
73

Who?,

08/10/2008 15:49:35
On an average friday/ saturday evening i regulary see off licences sell alcahol to kids that are under age. The shop owners don't really care as it brings them in business and the kids generally leave them alone.

In fountain bridge there is an old dear who i see most days buying going in and buying kids cigarettes and alcahol. The kids stand outside the shop giving her their money, she goes in and gets them then she hands over the goods outside the door- the shop owner does nothing. The police regulary have to deal with these kids so they will know how they get the stuff yet do nothing.

If the police actually did their job then the problem wouldn't exist.
74

Vincent-W,

08/10/2008 16:41:03
The_Reiver,

Partly right, but Scotland has a drinking culture biased towards spirits compared to most other European countries. Whisky is a factor, but Vodka is a bigger issue by far. The comparison between the per capita quantities of Spirits consumed between Scotland and our nearest neighbour are startling - we are talking 5 - 10 times more spirits consumed!

While the domestic market is important to the Scotch Whisky industry - don't forget that the vast majority is exported. (Also don't forget that much of the UK's vodka and gin production is distilled in Scotland - Smirnoff and Gordons to name but two).


I believe the biggest underlying issue is the culture of boozing in this country - it's embedded in the psyche - taught to successive generations by their parents, that you can't have fun unless you're partially or wholly drunk. Scotland was binge drinking years before the term was coined - just check out head injury statistics on Friday and Saturdays for the past 50 years at your local infirmary!

Break the cycle and stop the connection between alcohol and fun.

Draconian bans are not the way - they deal with the symptom not the cause. As I said in my post above (#65) two decent law abiding 20 year olds denied a single bottle of 5% alcohol each to enjoy at the end of a days work and round the corner a bunch of 16 year olds getting wellied on vodka and cheap wine.
75

Peterb74447,

Okmulgee 08/10/2008 18:30:19
Im an ex-scot living in the states. but here in Oklahoma at the "liquer stores" everybody has to present their ID (drivers licience). No i know this is a touch subject, but why not have a national ID card that is required for buying beer and spirits. No proof, no sale.
76

Itchy,

08/10/2008 18:44:49
#93 No to flaming ID Cards.

"FRESH doubt was cast on ministerial plans to raise the age limit for off-sales to 21 last night when it emerged that the police do not believe the scheme is workable"

Not only is not workable, it is straight out of the Soviet Union in its' totalitarianism and its' blatant power-grabbing nature.
77

cataibh,

Over the Struie 08/10/2008 20:57:25
Lower the age when people can buy booze to 16, why not?
Come on all you posters give a good reason.
78

hertscot,

08/10/2008 21:14:40
#95,

Cos they would all be ratarsed at school.
79

cataibh,

Over the Struie 08/10/2008 21:48:11
#96 No they will have left school married with 1.1 of a family, which the 29 year old granny will look after.
80

john z,

edinburgh 08/10/2008 22:54:50
The complaints against this proposal to raise the age to 21 for offsales, are just utter garbage. At present, tesco, morissons etc... and most other large supermarkets require ID to prove age above 21 or EVEN 25!! It strikes me, that people complaining about this new idea have no understanding of the problems alcohol creates. Go to Glasgow or Edinburgh royal infirmary any weekend, and you will find it full of p*ss heads, who are drunk violent and abusive, all bearing injuries from excess alcohol fuelled violence.

Scotland has a serious alcohol problem, and it needs firm action. The Scottish Government are doing the right thing.

As to people posting about human rights etc... don't talk sh*te. Many countries have much stricter rules on alcohol than Scotland, even in Europe. In some areas of the USA you cannot buy spirits at ANY AGE. Period.

As for students, shouldn't they be studying??? Besides they get cheap drink in Student unions.

This plan is a long overdue very good start in dealing with the monumental problem of excess alcohol consumption in Scotland. Lying London Labour who oppose this will find this will come back to bite them - sooner than they expect.
81

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 08/10/2008 23:05:02
16-21 year olds should be making babies. As nature intended. Keep the population of Scotland going.

Who knows, that might even make economic sense too.
82

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 09/10/2008 08:28:07
Sad comment from the police,they don't even bother to enforce the law as it stands now.Another of the "it il no work brigade".With not a Clue of how to make it work,
83

Vincent-W,

09/10/2008 08:43:57
93 Jock Tamson,

While under the influence?

 

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