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Pledge to reclaim Scottish history for our children

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Published Date: 21 January 2008
SCOTTISH history is to be restored to its position at the heart of the school curriculum to combat young people's "ignorance" of their nation's past, the education secretary promises today.
Fiona Hyslop maintains that making history relevant to the lives of children will "create a better understanding of how Scotland came to be, where it is now and the part the nation could play in shaping the future".

In a move likely to be greeted with suspicion by Unionist parties, the Nationalist education secretary makes it clear that Scottish history will be at the heart of teaching in schools.

Writing exclusively in The Scotsman, Ms Hyslop cites research showing pupils know little about pivotal events in Scotland's history such as the Act of Union and Battle of Culloden. She adds: "This is an unacceptable situation which must be reversed."

Ms Hyslop refers to a study of 3,000 16-year-old pupils from schools across Scotland in 1999. When offered alternatives as to why Scotland became part of the United Kingdom in 1707, 37 per cent chose "because English forces conquered it". The Battle of Culloden, meanwhile, was seen as a conflict between "wholly Scottish and wholly English armies" by 41 per cent of pupils.

Fifty per cent of pupils believed "there have always been Protestants and Catholics in Scotland", famous Scots such as Adam Smith were virtually unknown, while a handful of pupils attributed the invention of the hamburger to Ramsay MacDonald, the Scot who became Britain's first Labour prime minister.

Writing in The Scotsman in 2004, Sydney Wood, a teaching fellow in history at Dundee University, who carried out the research in 1999, stated: "There is no strong reason for thinking there has been a dramatic change since.

"The overwhelming conclusion displayed two dimensions – massive ignorance and a tendency to attribute Scottish woes to the English."

Ms Hyslop's announcement is likely to be welcomed by academics who have long argued Scottish history has been neglected in the curriculum north of the Border. This argument led to conflict with Peter Peacock, a former Labour education minister in the previous Scottish Executive, who said history did not have to be a "stand-alone" subject – a move that was seen as downgrading its importance in the curriculum.

Writing on the day new curriculum guidance for schools is published, Ms Hyslop claims that, in Scotland, "the average person's grasp of events from the nation's past are thin".

She adds: "For many, their only brush with history is when delivering the lyrics of a passionate song, usually with gusto at sporting events.

"Flower of Scotland is a wonderful combination: a stirring anthem and a history lesson. What a marvellous achievement it would be to arouse the same passion in people about the rest of this proud nation's history."

Ms Hyslop claims the new approach will ensure future generations of children do not miss out on discovering the nation's "proud" history.

She adds: "Scotland's young people must reclaim the past and understand this nation's history for what it really is – a story of immense achievement in industry, medicine, science and literature on a scale which belies the size of the population."

The draft outcomes outline what children will be expected to achieve in social sciences, including history, across their schooling. They demonstrate a marked shift away from teaching specific topics such as the Second World War to a certain age group towards ensuring youngsters understand how events of the past relate to their own lives and Scotland today.

The guidelines state children will be expected to gain understanding of how Scotland has developed as a nation.

The document states: "Children and young people learn about human achievements and how to make sense of the changes in society, conflicts and environmental issues. With greater understanding comes the opportunity to influence events by exercising informed and responsible citizenship."

Ms Hyslop is not the first minister to try to emphasise the position of Scottish history in the curriculum. In 1997, Michael Forsyth, the then Tory Scottish secretary, called for a new Standard Grade in Scottish history, but did not remain in office long enough to keep his promise.

However, Mr Peacock was criticised for suggesting in 2005 that history would disappear as a separate subject. He said: "Perhaps we will not be teaching it in the same way, in a timetabled slot marked 'history', but as a contributor to broader forms of learning."

His comments sparked anger among historians, one of whom, Professor Tom Devine, described them as "an educational disgrace".

The guidelines published today are the latest element of the forthcoming new curriculum, described as the biggest ever change to Scottish school education. They reveal that, in future, social sciences will be divided into three broad areas: people, past events and societies; people, place and environment and people in society, economy and business.

There will also be a new emphasis on making history relevant to children's own experiences, while the use of collaborative learning, technology and field trips will be encouraged. For example, the youngest children should be able to make a link to the past through people or events in their own lives and older children will have to investigate a Scottish historical theme to discover how the past or people from the past have shaped Scottish society.

Ms Hyslop claims the new curriculum will consist of more than just dates which "tie endless stories of kings, corpses and coronations together", but will make history relevant to shaping the future of Scotland's children.

She adds: "This is the key to bringing history and the school curriculum to life in Scotland. By making history relevant to children today, we can create a better understanding of how Scotland came to be, where it is now and the part the nation could play in shaping the future."

Peter Hillis, professor of history education at in Strathclyde University, said: "Many teachers will welcome the guidance because it is quite flexible and will probably allow them to do much of what is currently done.

"The guidelines are in fairly general terms and they have done their best to distill them down to key areas. There is more emphasis on Scottish history in the outcomes, not to the exclusion of British or international history."

However, Prof Hillis also voiced concerns that a lack of guidance on which historical topics children should learn about could lead to a lack of appropriate teaching materials.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 January 2008 12:00 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Royster,

21/01/2008 00:08:40
As a Unionist I have no problem with this.
2

druidh,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 00:44:53
I still recall our classroom having a freize showing all the Kings and Queens - from Norman the Conquerer onwards. As child, it was never explained to me that this wasn't MY history. And as the article points out, much of the anti-English sentiment is fuelled by half-truths and misunderstandings about Anglo-Scottish relations. Informing our children might (a) reduce that feeling and (b) restore some pride in our own achievements.
3

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 00:45:32
william wallace WAS anti english gasp! but its OK though. he wouldnt have been doing his job of standing up to foreign invasion avenging berwick restoring the rights of the nation generally without a teensy weensy bit of antipathy towards the english. its a shame we had to import him from australia though
4

Bridged and tunnelled,

21/01/2008 01:09:30
I recall reading (and reveling in) loads about Scottish history when I was at school - in primary particularly.

If its place has been lost over the last couple of decades, of course it should make a reappearance. But let's face it, history should never be at the heart of the curriculum. We really ought to be a bit more forward looking than that.
5

weeshooie1,

Australia 21/01/2008 01:17:37
"AT LAST".

It was always one of my favourite subjects at primary school and later. Why was it ever withdrawn from the curriculum in the first place?
6

John Blackley,

florida 21/01/2008 01:18:09
I think some people might have difficulty with the wording "at the heart of the curriculum". However, any move to restore history - particularly Scottish history - as one of a few core curriculum subjects has my whole-hearted support.

One of the bases of pride in citizenship is knowing the history of your country. Without that, you have less reason to be proud to be a Scot, less self-respect and less reason to be a part of the community of Scots worldwide.

In short, you are one step closer to being a yob.
7

Guga II,

Rockall 21/01/2008 01:23:45
It's a sad state of affairs when Scottish children are not only not taught Scottish history, but are abysmally ignorant of it. Even many adults are in a similar position. They know all about the English/German kings, but lack any knowledge of their own kings, especially before that sad day in 1603 when one of our kings was foolish enough to accept the English throne.

History is, and remains an important subject. We should know all about the origins of our society if for no other reason than to avoid repeating the same mistakes we have already made.

Like other subjects on the Scottish curriculum, children should be taught Scottish history, geography, languages and literature, instead of being force fed foreign stuff in lieu. Why should our children continue to be taught about some numpty that burned some cakes, but no mention is made of Nechtan the Great?
8

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 01:29:36
#5 yeah.history is rubbish now i preferred it back in olden days when it didnt have to impact on current affairs we should just get on with reconciling ourselves to our present position and strive to be better at being ignorant of all that nasty UGH!!STUFF
9

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/01/2008 01:34:04
They tried to airbrush our history and almost succeeded. The Unionists would have to say now they have no problem with this. "They were caught with their hand in the cookie jar". Last week one clown asserted that Scotland was never ever a country. Did anyone watch "Joan of Ark" In 1420 England was an island! Ignorance of the highest order.
10

Scullion,

Canada 21/01/2008 01:43:40
I'm not sure that even promoting Scottish history will make scholars of those who aren't interested in the first place. However, I fully encourage the attempt.
Mind you, I avoided Canadian history like the plague in high school and opted for the far more interesting courses in American history (mea culpa).
11

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 21/01/2008 02:00:21
Question is...Will our children be really interested.?

Answer.. NO.!
But maybe they will think, 'a-bit' about it.

According to the 'Health News' in this Paper, all they are interested in,
Is becoming 'Big Fatty's' by playing computer Games!
12

Em,

21/01/2008 02:01:46
#8 & 10 Nice one.

I remember history lessons when I was at school, they were thouroughly boring, uninspiring and lacking in passion. It wasn't until I left school that I began to develop an interest in our nations real history (not the stuff that appears in school text books)

History has been deemed as less important than other subjects on the curriculum allowing inadequate material to form the basis of lessons, but knowing your nations history plays a major role in shaping the attitudes and opinions of our country's future citizens, this fact is well known among those who decide what will, and more importantly what will not be taught in our schools.
The whole situation reminds me of that famous quote "History is written by the winners."
13

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 02:12:10
Don't think much will change.

Prof. Hills says:

"The guidelines are in fairly general terms and they have done their best to distill them down to key areas. There is more emphasis on Scottish history in the outcomes, not to the exclusion of British or international history."

More emphasis on Scottish history in the outcomes? What the hell does that mean? It's okay by me as long as the outcome is an independent Scotland. Is that what he means - dae ye think?
14

scotleag,

21/01/2008 02:18:45
"Ms Hyslop refers to a study of 3,000 16-year-old pupils from schools across Scotland in 1999. When offered alternatives as to why Scotland became part of the United Kingdom in 1707, 37 per cent chose "because English forces conquered it". The Battle of Culloden, meanwhile, was seen as a conflict between "wholly Scottish and wholly English armies" by 41 per cent of pupils."

Judging by the attitudes shown by most pro-SNP posters here I presume her intention is to drive those figures UP
15

James,

Dundee 21/01/2008 02:41:15
#16 Scotgael

There was a general consensus for once on this thread. Until an Amadán such as you couldnt resist a back-stab.

Surely it is better to be informed than ignorant, or is enlightenment the privelige of our 'betters' such as yourself?
16

Willie Macleod,

Wick 21/01/2008 02:56:07
I agree consnsus would be good but youwill not get it here there are to many like #16 stirrinng things up
17

Willie Macleod,

Wick 21/01/2008 02:58:37
Sorry that should have been!15My apologies #16
18

John Blackley,

Florida 21/01/2008 02:59:29
Further to my last post: Children require role models and heroes. Granted, the majority of children in Scotland's schools today will - no matter how much time we devote to teaching history - still adopt, as their heroes, some bowly-legged, spitting, professional-fowling fitba' player or other. Our task, as adults, is to increase the minority.

In African communities in the United States, many children have been rescued from the gang culture by focussing lessons on great Africans and on African history. Give kids someone to emulate and some will be saved.

If Scotland can teach its children that to be Scottish is to be the custodian of a proud history, that to be Scottish is to be one of a line that included great men and women, that to be Scottish means that greatness is not only possible but probable, then we will go some way to increasing the minority.
19

W Smith,

Middle East 21/01/2008 03:14:44
So Osama Saeed and the other muslim 'Scots' will be taking the Scottish history lessons then, eh?

1) Our patron saint, Andrew is jewish.

2) Scotland's flag represents the cross on which Andrew was martyred for his chistian faith.

3) The Declaration of Arbroath complains to the Pope that the English should spend more energy on the Crusades.

4) The Declaration of Arbroath refers to Jesus Christ as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

5) Lord Arthur James Balfour, as in the Balfour Declaration, was from East Lothian.

Will Kenny MacAskill rush down to Edinburgh Central Mosque to apologise for all this?
20

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 21/01/2008 03:21:10
With such a linear history, Scotland is fortunate. Teach it. It's fascinating. Canadian history by comparison is so convoluted and "spiral" that's it's hard to untangle all the strands. Everything Scottish is so much admired around the world that you should revel in it.
21

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

21/01/2008 03:21:30
I always found it rather strange, if not alarming, that Scottish history was not taught as part of the curriculum.

Given most nations teach their own history, would it be possible for previous administrations, to explain why this was not done under their watch?

22

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

21/01/2008 03:23:42
6

Why would anyone remove their own histroy from the curriculum I wonder? Seems very odd
23

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 03:23:54
honestly what are you all afraid of we have a great story ......it inspired me greatly but only after i left my 60s britstate dullfactory of a school and taught it to myself...the bairns need better now ...ITS TIME
24

roboypg4,

vancouver 21/01/2008 03:52:02
I am not a unionsit... I am for a Free and Independent Scotland...We need to know about our Nations History.
25

Graeme,

Guangzhou 21/01/2008 03:56:37
I’m all for this and goodness knows why this was ever dropped from the curriculum. I loved the Scottish history I was taught at school. One thing though that did strike me (as a Scot) and certainly made me sit up was that my primary six teacher, probably long dead now, was so incredibly anti English. That year I worked out many things. One was to start reading on my own!

When we teach history we must make sure it is balanced. Lets say without the Gaga tilt!


26

Aoda,

Pennslvania 21/01/2008 04:01:25
I was surprised when I first found out that Scottish history wasn't taught in Scotland. When I studied American history, we were taught the important role that Scottish ideas of democracy and of the many Scottish immigrants played an important role in framing our country.

Scotland has a proud history and should be taught.
27

viking nz,

new zealand 21/01/2008 04:05:39
40 YEARS TOO LATE .
28

Alex,

Ayr 21/01/2008 04:33:23
Another great wrong being put to right..well done Salmond,Hyslop and Co .
29

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 05:12:43
19Willie Macleod, Wick 21/01/2008 02:58:37
Sorry that should have been!15My apologies #16;

Stirring things up? I was in the Holyroodhouse book shop some years ago and they had a book about the Royal Families of Europe. The only one not mentioned was Scotland's. Didn't Lizzie the Twa show up for her Scottish Corination in her street clothes with a handbag draped over her arm? Stirring it up? You have no idea!

BTW (for everyone but this chiel) "The Rising Sun" by Douglas Galbraith - great book about the Darien Expedition and it's consequences re: union.
30

David MacVicar,

web 21/01/2008 05:28:36
Long overdue though I am wondering how many of the history teachers know the subject in detail already?

I would guess that a large minority do not currently have enough knowledge of Scottish history to teach this well.
31

LV Scot,

North Las Vegas 21/01/2008 05:30:45
I'm amazed that the teaching of Scotland's history would be allowed to lapse in Scotland.

I was raised and semi-educated in California. When I started school, Harry Truman was president of the US,
Joe Stalin was in charge in the USSR. Ancient history!

The state of California mandated that in grade 4 the history of California must be taught to all children.

As it was then taught California's history started in the 1760s when the Spanish moved in (very few of them),
annexed the land and began building the California missions. We were taught about the causes of Mexican independence from Spain, Mexican government of California, the Russian colonies in California, the Bear Flag revolt culminating in the California Republic and its eventual annexation by the United States.

Even in the brevity of the history given to us, the native people being pre-literate, we still saw the currents which had shaped our state first as Spanish conquest, then as a province of Mexico, then an independent republic (flush with gold) and finally as a component of the United States.

With its long and colorful history, I find it hard to believe that Scottish school-teachers will not be able to instill into most pupils an appreciation for the Scottish nation.

My grandfather who was 4 generations removed from Scotland still was proud to the end of his life of his connection to Scotland. And my children who are 7th generation Americans are still quite ready to let you know of their connection to Scotland.

I'm not anti-England, nor am I particularly knowledgeable of separation issues. I do believe that Scotland should preserve her heritage, whether as a part of the UK or as a separate nation is up to you Scots to determine.

Although I no longer live in California I'm only 45 miles away and, as a native, I can only grieve for what we now call "the people's republic of California".

Protect Scotland and your heritage by teaching your children who they are and why th
32

Hamish MacBeth,

Skye 21/01/2008 05:53:29
# 1 and 4: As a nationalist I don't gave a t@ss what you think.
33

Pete40,

Tassy 21/01/2008 05:57:18
Well it will certainly be an eye opener. Vikings, Irish, French, some Portugese, not a lot of English. Not forgetting the Scottish Aristocracy, now that is a can of worms. Are you sure you want to do this? How about Irish history, it is very interesting.
34

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 06:16:38
1 & 4 - well your fellow unionists did have a problem with Scottish history being taught at school, in particular Peter "Henry Ford" Peacock who tried to downgrade the subject in the previous administration.
35

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 06:17:33
5 - another Henry Ford
36

master mariner,

at sea 21/01/2008 06:19:10
34 love your comment shows the level of the average Nat from the western isles. I am pretty sure you enjoy living on the subsidies that 1 & 4 pay for in your Island idly

As for History, it will be good, I suspect I will be able to stop explaining that no when I say Floden I mean Floden, not Culloden.

And for the Anti English folk out their, yes we attempted to invade them and got the boot applied to our rump by a much smaller and less well equipped English army.
37

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 06:23:27
23 - The culprits were to be found at Keir Hardie House
38

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 06:24:47
38 - you mean FloDDen ?
39

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 21/01/2008 06:25:29
Pledge to reclaim Scottish history for our children
------------------------------------------
Is this blatant hypocrisy or what.

Priority No 1 for the Scots should be to stop beating and killing their women.
"Scotland's top policeman demands special courts for domestic violence"

I see no point in conditioning Scots children about history, when their mothers are murdered and beaten(48,000 in 2006).

Why are U posters not fired up about the continuing cruelty perpetrated on your women .

But get get fired up about dead and gone history, and want the beaten women's children, to know that history.

That blows my mind dudes.

GC
40

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 06:36:16
A great place to start reading about Scottish history and to get a feel for the culture would be -

By Arthur Herman

How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World and Everything in It

By Inving Welsh

Trainspotting
publisher: Vintage, released: 11 July, 1994

Porno
publisher: Vintage, released: 03 July, 2003

If You Liked School, You'll Love Work
publisher: Jonathan Cape, released: 05 July, 2007

Filth
publisher: Vintage, released: 05 August, 1999

Marabou Stork Nightmares
publisher: Vintage, released: 29 February, 1996

The Bedroom Secrets of the Master Chefs
publisher: Jonathan Cape, released: 03 August, 2006

Ecstasy: Three Tales of Chemical Romance
publisher: Vintage, released: 04 September, 1997

Babylon Heights
by: Irvine Welsh, Dean Cavanagh
publisher: Vintage, released: 01 June, 2006

Glue
publisher: Vintage, released: 04 April, 2002

By Alisdair Gray

Lanark: A Life in Four Books

By Ian Rankin

http://www.ianrankin.net/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=63

By Louis Grasick Gibbon

Sunset Song

By John Prebble:

Disaster at Dundee, Harcourt, Brace & Co., 1956 (also published as High Girders: The Tay Bridge Disaster, 1879, Secker and Warburg, 1975)
Culloden, Atheneum, 1962
The Highland Clearances, Secker & Warburg, 1963
Glencoe: The Story of the Massacre, Secker & Warburg, 1966
The Lion in the North: A Personal View of Scotland's History, Penguin
Darien: The Scottish Dream of Empire (also published as Darien: A Scots Colony in the New World, 1698-1700), 1968
Mutiny: Highland Regiments in Revolt, 1743-1804, 1975, ISBN 0-14-004328-4
The King's Jaunt: George IV in Scotland, August, 1822,, Birlinn Limited, Edinburgh, 2000, ISBN 1-84158-068-6 (originally published in 1988)

By Nigel Tranter:

The Fortalices.
Tresspass
Mammon's Daughter
Harsh Heritage
Eagle's Feathers
Watershed
The Gilded Fleece
Delayed Action
Tinker's Pride
Fli
41

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 06:39:53
By Nigel Tranter:cont:

The Fortalices.
Tresspass
Mammon's Daughter
Harsh Heritage
Eagle's Feathers
Watershed
The Gilded Fleece
Delayed Action
Tinker's Pride
Flight of Dutchmen
Man's Estate
Island Twilight
Root and Branch
Colours Flying
The Chosen Course
Fair Game
High Spirits
Thirsty Range
The Freebooters

Tidewrack
Fast and Loose
Heartbreak Valley
Big Corral
Bridal Path
Cheviot Chase
Trail Herd
Ducks and Drakes
Desert Doublecross
The Queen's Grace
Rum Week
The Night Riders
Cloven Hooves
There are Worse Jungles
Rio D'Oro
Dynamite Trail
The Long Coffin
Rancher Renegade
Trailing Trouble
MacGregor's Gathering
The Enduring Flame
Balefire
The Stone
Bloodstone Trail
Spaniard's Isle
Border Riding
The Man Behind the Curtain
The Clansman
Nestor the Monster
Spanish Galleon
The Flockmasters

42

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 06:41:09
Nigel Tranter cont:

Kettle of Fish
Lord and Master
Birds of a Feather
The Deer Poachers
Gold for Prince Charlie
Drug on the Market
The Fortified House Vol I
Something Very Fishy
The Courtesan
The Fortified House Vol 2
Give a Dog a Bad Name
Silver Island
Pegasus Book of Scotland
Chain of Destiny
Pursuit
The Fortified House Vol 3
Outlaw of the Highlands
Past Master
The Fortified House Vol 4
A Stake in the Kingdom
Lion Let Loose
Tinker Tess
Fire and High Water
Cable From Kabul
Land of the Scots
To the Rescue
Black Douglas
Robert The Bruce Vol 1
The Fortified House Vol 5
Robert the Bruce Vol II

The Heartland
Robert The Bruce Vol III
Portrait of the Border Country
The Eastern Counties
The Young Montrose Montrose
The North East
The Wisest Fool
The Wallace
Lords of Misrule
A Folly of Princes
The Captive Crown
Argyll and Bute
MacBeth the King
Portrait of the Lothians
Margaret the Queen
David the Prince
True Thomas
Nigel Tranter's Scotland
The Patriot
Scottish Castles
Lord of the Isles
Unicorn Rampant
The Riven Realm
James by the Grace of God
Scotland of Robert the Bruce
Rough Wooing
The Story of Scotland
Cache Down
Columba
Flowers of Chivalry
Mail Royal
Warden of the Queen's March
Kenneth

43

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 06:42:08
Nigel Tranter cont:

Crusader
Footbridge to Enchantment
Children of the Mist
Druid Sacrifice
Tapestry of the Boar
Price of a Princess
Lord in Waiting
Highness in Hiding
Honours Even
A Rage of Regents
Poetic Justice
The Marchman
The Lion's Whelp
High Kings and Vikings
A Flame for the Fire
Sword of State
Envoy Extraordinary
Courting Favour
The End of the Line
The Admiral
Triple Alliance
The Islesman
Right Royal Friend
Marie and Mary
Hope Endures


Just suggestions - you may have some too?
44

John S,

21/01/2008 06:42:38
#34 - Hamish MacBeth, I agree.
# 1 and 4: As a nationalist I also don't gave a t@ss what you think.
45

An Beal Bacht,

21/01/2008 06:53:10
41 - GC - Ah'm scared ae mah wife. She's goat such a temper ken. Ah'v tried tae talk tae her aboot it bu she wullnae listen an Ah end up gettin a leatherin. Any suggestions? Mind Ahm a Californian kind ae metro-sexual guy mahself!
46

MR.CYNICAL,

a happy place 21/01/2008 07:21:28
history people appear to be worried that modern studies is much more popular at secondary schools than history--boring people about bannockburn etc will not help.
47

Iain fae Elgin,

London 21/01/2008 07:28:57
"....led to conflict with Peter Peacock, a former Labour education minister in the previous Scottish Executive, who said history did not have to be a "stand-alone" subject..."

One of many reasons why these numpties are in opposition.
48

Grahamski,

Falkirk 21/01/2008 07:38:37
The problem in schools isn't specifically just Scottish history not being taught - it's history as a subject not being taught. There are secondary schools in this country without history departments. That should be a concern for us all.
If we have generations of kids leaving school without any kind of grasp of history be it world, British or Scottish then as a country we'll have a problem.
49

DonaldK,

Brussels 21/01/2008 07:55:17
Forcing secondary pupils to listen to dry as ditchwater history about ancient Scotland will simply turn them away from the subject in droves - all that kings/ queens/ battles/ dates rubbish...zzzzzzzzzzzz.

By all means focus on Scottish history - but don't go any further back than the industrial revolution if you want at least some of them to find an interest in the subject.
50

Erse,

Middle East 21/01/2008 08:31:25
#35, Irish history? Like Robert Bruce's wife Elizabeth DeBurgh (Irish-Norman Nobility) is a direct ancestor of Chris DeBurgh or that Robert Bruce's brother Edward was once High King of All Ireland?
51

Gone Native,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 08:43:11
Let's hope this new curriculum ends up more like "The Peoples' History of the United States" by Howard Zinn and less like "Why the world needs a British Empire" by John Bull
52

BIG EYE,

Paisley 21/01/2008 09:00:21
It was a disgrace that Scots kids could go through school and leave without being taught very much of their own country's history.

It would not happen in any other "free" country and it should never have been allowed to happen here. Given the Scottish enlightenment, the Scots role in the Industrial Revolution and in terms of invention there is plenty of great material.

Well done Fiona Hyslop and the SNP!
53

Dunaskin,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 09:05:34
I think the Nats might be disappointed, if Scottish history is taught warts and all. Culloden wasn't a glorious last stand against the foreign oppressor - it was a miserable massacre of half-starved serfs of an obsolete feudal society, and many of the 'English' army were Lowlanders and Campbells. How many modern Scots understand the pivotal role of the Covenanters in modern British society? Was Philiphaugh an act of a noble and dignified society? Did Robert the Bruce really watch the spider (no)? The Act of Union was seen as a way of improving the Scots economy, especially after the Darien disaster. Sure, there is much to be proud of, like the shipbuilders of the Clyde and the (red-coated) regiments of Empire, Adam Smith and James Watt, but we should be open and honest with ourselves.
54

iang,

21/01/2008 09:18:00
They should have asked them what the "Saltire" is...I am guessing they would not be surprised to hear that the number of school leavers who know that is unfogivably low as well
55

Mikey,

21/01/2008 09:36:12
#10, it's not just the half wit screen writers that came up with that one! The supposedly educated Simon Schama, in his 'History of Britain,' regerred QE1 as the queen of 'This island nation!'

And as for the unionistas, will they be so positive when the kids are taught about Daniel Defoe buying off the votes of the precursors to the Unionist parties in Scotland? Will they be happy about the kids learning about how the general population reacted to the union? Will they be happy when they learn of the Wolfe letter? Will they be happy to learn of how the oil was stolen by London politicians?
56

easyoasy,

21/01/2008 09:41:32
Ms Hyslop claims the new approach will ensure future generations of children do not miss out on discovering the nation's "proud" history.
Why the inverted commas? Is this part of The "Scotsman's" new editorial policy?
57

Geoff,

SA 21/01/2008 09:41:36
Scotland has a proud History worthy of passing on to the following generations. At the same time it would be nice if children throughout the United Kingdom could learn an objective history of the peoples of the British Isles. Much of our past history was romanticised glorification of the "converting the noble savage" variety, but the pendulum of political correctness has gone too far.Regardless of whether one is a Unionist or Nationalist, we have much to be proud of and need to remember that. Also, the influence of Robert the Bruce and William the (Norman) conquerer pervaded the whole island of Britain-artificial boundaries notwithstanding.
58

Colkitto,

River Clyde 21/01/2008 09:46:51
Teaching the history of Scotland will do more to combat sectarianism than all the initiatives so far.
Children will have a better insight to how our Country came to be in a union with England.
59

Lesley,

EDINBURGH 21/01/2008 09:47:38
What an informatative article - Really, Ramsay McDonald DIDN'T invent the hamburger??? Well, well, you live and learn :)
60

Islay Herald,

Hebrides 21/01/2008 09:49:50
56 – You’re right. We should be open and honest with ourselves. Judging from your comments, (everything Scottish = bad, everything British = good), you do not think very highly of my country and believe the best thing that ever happened to us was the Union. So maybe you are the one who should be asking yourself questions.

BTW - Is the Iraq War the act of a noble and dignified society?
61

malkster,

Scotland 21/01/2008 09:55:29
Surely it is a good thing to teach Scottish history as well as British European and world history. One of the most fascinating things about history is what was going on in different parts of the world at the same time.
62

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 21/01/2008 10:09:25
When politicians of ANY party start to meddle with the history curriculum you should be afraid, very afraid.
The ruling class in Scotland (and in England) has always pursued a policy of 'Divide and Rule' - and since they have controlled the Press and media for most of the last 200 years, the mythology of Scots against English has been planted very deep. It serves the interests of those who 'rule' Scotland to project all their failings onto their southern neighbours. The reality of the Wars of Independence are that there was no state called Scotland or state called England in the sense there is today. What did exist was a Norman aristocracy whose language was French. Edward Planta-Genet was as Frenchy as they come. Robert de Bruis was Norman. Willam Le Waleis was 'Welsh' (the name means Welsh). What we had was a hierarchy of Norman warlords - of whom the top dog was King. They fought, poisoned, murdered and assassinated each as a matter of course. Their motives were purely selfish power and greed. Wallace was little different; he and his men murdered, raped and pillaged Newcastle, York, Carlisle and a hundred other towns for over a decade. Gangsters and murderers all. The ordinary people were cannon fodder with no choice at all. They fought for their Norman lord or they were hanged, butchered, raped etc. The politicians 'interest' in history will not extend to telling the truth, but don't they just love the myths?
63

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/01/2008 10:17:06
Imagine trying to understand yourself without having access to any information about your childhood. History is the most important subject in a school curriculum.
64

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2008 10:23:11
66
Most children's history books tend to concentrate on the interaction of Scotland with England,i.e. The Wars of Independence,Mary Queen of Scots etc.
Note not "Queen Mary" but as how the English seen her.
There are whole reams of Scots history ignored, simply because it did not affect England.
65

Ian Campbell,

W Horsley & Tiree 21/01/2008 10:23:33
When I was at school - a few centuries ago - history was taught in schools. It was world history starting with the Babylonians and then later homed in on British history. Although I was born and brought up in England we knew quite a bit about Scottish history as we happened to have a charismatic Scots history teacher who made sure that we did. I knew that standards had slipped somewhat in Scotland in more recent years when at a St George's Day celebration in London a laughing Scots lad said to me, "Remember Bannockburn, 1344!" and I was able to correct him,"It was 1314, mate". Of course history should be taught in school and every child should grow up familiar at least in outline with the events that shaped his or her country. This must include events that go quite a long way back that shaped our liberties, and that should include the Declaration of Arbroath as well as the Acts of Union. The SNP deserves congratulation on this intiative. I wish it was going to happen in England too but we have fallen even further behind and now our Unionist Scots Prime Minister insists that Britishness (whatever that is) must be taught in English schools. There is no guarantee that children who leave school in England will know any English, Scottish or British history, either in outline or in depth. I have had to explain to young people that the whole of Britain was once Roman Catholic, that what is now the USA was once a British colony, who the Duke of Marlborough was, when the battle of Waterloo took place (and no, we were not fighting the Germans) and much more of the same - and this was to children who had emerged from what passes for education with decent AL grades. If we don't know how our ancestors fought for and established our liberties, social and political, we leave ourselves at the mercy of politicians like Tony Blair who think that 1997 was year zero and that they can ignore everything that happened before preceding the 18 years of Tory misrule.
66

Aesop,

TheScottishPatient .com 21/01/2008 10:27:46
At last!

As someone who managed the dubious distinction of being educated in Thurso High School (during the 1970s) located just ten miles from where some of the worst aspects of the Highland Clearances took place - but without ever hearing about them mentioned at school - this announcement is long overdue.

Scottish school children need to know where they've come from in order to help understand who they are. The colonisation of our education system has gone on for too long. Well done to Fiona Hyslop and the Scottish government.
67

andy sinclair,

forres 21/01/2008 10:34:09
my son and i do history reenactment on the times of sir william wallace and king robert bruce and with regard to some of the comments about kids not being interested , in my view and experience this is rubbish , every school that we have been to have enjoyed seeing and touching items from wallace's times , hearing the stories and learning skills that were commonplace in those times , they also enjoy the fighting side which my son and i do , and have often been asked by kids in the street who do do scottish history homework for help with it , bring back scottish history , so that foreign nationals dont think that england ends at thurso
68

Highland Mighty,

21/01/2008 10:35:19
Finally, school children will hear the TRUTH about Scotland and England and will no longer need to base their beliefs on the more excitable nationalists and their versions of history.

And I wonder what % of children are aware of the Darien Scheme and its connection to the Act of Union?

(To the author of 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30 - Get a life and stop posting under multiple usernames. People like you wreck these boards.)
69

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 10:43:01
Not before time, as the English have always viewed British History from a different perspective?

During his time as Secretary of State for Scotland, Willie Ross, a committed Unionist, and ex-Head Teacher,
instigated educational visits to see what could be learned from secondary moderns Down South to assist in the introduction of the new comprehensive system in Scotland.

A party of Scottish Head Teachers were shown around several East Midlands Secondary Moderns when their attention was immediately drawn to the maps of Great Britain on display in the classrooms?

Each detailed map only showed England and Wales,
ending at the Border? North of the Border only showed a white, blank, outline shape of Scotland?
Of course, the Scots teachers were too polite to
ask why these maps did not include Scotland?
70

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 10:52:25
75. Maps in English schools don't include Scotland? So English schools are using 300+ year old maps, are they?

What a load of nationalist rubbish.
71

Steve Evans,

Malta 21/01/2008 11:05:48
Given the large array of great books on Scottish History it seems amazing that most books seen to be read by visitors to a wonderful rich, colourful and at many times bloody past.Magnu Magnassons, Story of a Nation is a great introduction for anyone.
72

,

21/01/2008 11:11:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

Yr Awel,

HTE 21/01/2008 11:16:56
Two things in passing :

History is not the past, it is a discourse upon the past.

More crucially, how about some European history ... for the future?
74

An English Voice™,

UK 21/01/2008 11:19:41
75 annoyed me so a quick reminder to the nationalists of 'reality':

YouGov poll 8 Jan 08:

Headline Voting Intention
Labour 36% (+4%)
SNP 30% (-2%)
Con 18% (-1%)
Lib Dem 12% (n/c)
Other 5% (+1%)

Constituency vote
CON 14% (+2%)
LAB 29% (n/c)
LDEM 14% (+1&)
SNP 38% (-2%)

Regional vote
CON 13% (n/c)
LAB 27% (+1%)
LDEM 12% (-1%)
SNP 30% (-4%)

In favour of Scottish independence - 27% (UNCHANGED ON MAR 07)
In favour of retaining the present Parliament - 57%
(Note just the two options)

The SNP’s success in last year’s election was mainly due to the unpopularity of the Labour Party in Scotland - 70% (58% among SNP voters only)
The SNP’s success in last year’s election was mainly due to the SNP’s popularity - 16% (36% among SNP voters only)

"Britain should continue to have its own nuclear weapons."
Agree 44%
Disagree 40%

"It is right that Scotland pays its fair share towards Britain’s nuclear weapons."
Agree 55%
Disagree 31%
75

wayne bijlyeerheid,

21/01/2008 11:21:32
Not only is it a disgrace Scottish children growing up with no knowledge of history, it is also a disgrace that Scottish historians stand back while English and Irish historians write the nation out of history altogether.
How many Scottish children know that the "Celtic" early Christians, now referred to as Irish, are in all primary sources called Scottish?
How many Scottish children, aware of the Armada, are unaware of the Battle of Largs where the largest fleet ever to sail out of Scandinavia was defeated by the Scots thus ending the Viking threat to Europe?
76

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 11:22:41
Highland Mighty, there is nothing in Scotland’s history that any Nat need be frightened about.

It was when Scottish education was under unionist control that Scottish history was down played almost to the point of extinction.

It should surely be possible in this day and age to make history something, which comes alive.

I do hope though that when it is now taught, that they will not leave out the entire 19th century as they did when I was at school.
77

kimba,

21/01/2008 11:24:25
80. Well put,but wait for the "AH BUT" THEY ALWAYS HAVE A ANGLE ON IT.
78

Lock,

21/01/2008 11:24:54
How many 11-14 year olds do you think could care less? I was taught Scottish history at that age and to be honest I couldn't have given two hoots. At that age the subject matter is not as important as introducing independent thinking and research. Unfortunately this may involve teaching both sides of the story (and in history there is almost ALWAYS two sides) which going by some of the comments I have seen on this website over the years would not suit many.
79

buidhe,

21/01/2008 11:26:30
Good to see the SNP doing its bit for Scottish history and Gaelic.
80

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 11:27:09
80. I have to correct one of the stats in this post...my apologies.

In favour of Scottish independence - 27% (-1% on Mar 07)
In favour of retaining the present Parliament - 57% (+6% on Mar 07)
81

Em,

21/01/2008 11:31:01
#72 Andy

I am currently reading a book which may interest you as you said you do reenactments of the times of Wallace and Bruce. The book is called "William Wallace - Robin Hood Revealed" the book covers two key areas, firstly a translation of Henry the Minstrel's epic poem on the life of Wallace giving details of events that happened throughout Wallace's life, and secondly an investigation into the claim that Wallace was the original Robin Hood explaining why the true identity of Robin Hood has remained so elusive.

Just thought you might find it handy
82

Rob7,

England 21/01/2008 11:34:20
What about teaching about the Slave trade and the fact that Scots made more money out of it then both England and Wales combined
83

Prof,

21/01/2008 11:34:23
I wonder if the history curriculm will include the election of the fisrt nationalist government after 300 years of unionist rule and its subsequent betrayal of the nationalist cause. Where are the great new stategies aimed at developing Scottish indusrty, culture and social infrastructure? Instead we have had a succesion of politically correct nonsense.
Salmond's SNP has done more harm to the nationalist cause than 300 years of unionist misrule.
84

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 11:35:15
Fantastic news! In the next 10 years we could have thousands of wee aspiring William Wallaces and Winnie Ewings, and our independence from the evil English imperialists will be assured!!

Perhaps archery and sword fencing could be included in PE too!
85

bumpkin,

outer space 21/01/2008 11:35:27
the disgraceful conduct of scottish lairds is not well known.their short term leases to the cottars pre 1700 led to the degradation of land, which led to the many famines afflicting 17th cent scotland. With the rural people kept in this transient state, they were unable to build proper houses, plant trees or farm properly.
These lairds then sold out the english in 1707 in return for gold or land eg fletcher or hamilton.
Then the lowland clearances began, the biggest ever forced population movement in history.
The net result was misery for millions and untold wealth for the lairds.
86

Prof,

21/01/2008 11:37:44
#88 Are you for real? Given the forcible depopulation of Scotland and the English inspired destruction of Scottish culture, to say Scots benefited from the slave trade, is manifestly ignorant.
87

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 11:42:41
87. For the love of God!

Now Robin Hood was Scottish?!

What's next? Shakespeare was a Shetlander?

(I think the further away the nationalists are kept from the history curriculum, the better.)
88

kimba,

21/01/2008 11:45:08
90 wILLIAM wALLACE ONLY WON ONE BATTLE AND THEN HE WAS EXECUTED,GOOD EXAMPLE TO TEACH YOUR KIDS.
89

kimba,

21/01/2008 11:47:28
87. iF THAT IS TRUE HE WAS IN JERUSALEM FIGHTING FOR THE KING OF England!
90

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 11:49:22
English voice, quite right, we know that Robin hood was just a myth anyway.

Kimba , your grasp on history is sadly lacking, it all depemds on what you clas as a battle and the effect your deeds might have had on others.
91

ochone,

21/01/2008 11:50:05
sorry, meant depends and class
92

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 11:50:26
Hopefully there is some place in the curriculum for a proper analysis of Cromwall's war criminal activities.

http://www.dunbarmartyrs.com/
93

Rob7,

England 21/01/2008 11:50:53
#92 I'm so sorry, my mistake that should have read no Scot has ever hurt anyone in History, Wallace went into England with flowers, and the battle of Flodden was a minor disagreement where Scots accidently got lost and their sat nat was not working - they apologised and went back smiling. Tony Blair did not invade Iraq – Sadam asked Bust and Scottish Born Blair to depose him and kill 1000 of innocent people
94

kimba,

21/01/2008 11:53:20
96. your spelling is to say the least "cack" and why is my history lacking!
95

kimba,

21/01/2008 11:59:21
100. English sarcasm,you can't beat it!
96

Liz,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 12:00:17
#93
Well as we all know if we saw the dreadful item on Scotland Today a while back that even Elvis was a Scot (or at least his Great-grandfather about 20 generations ago was)

But mention on this board that Mr Blair is a Scot (born in Edinburgh) everyone seems to go into denial...

It can only be a good think that Scottish history is to be taught, the amount of ignorant comments made on the Scotsman boards sometimes are embarressing for all concerned.

97

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 12:06:03
#102

Kimba sadly you are suffering from sarchasm.
98

pwd,

Hawick 21/01/2008 12:07:23
This can only be good news for the Union, always assuming of course that history is to be taught and not the romantic and mythological nonsense of the pipe, haggis and tartan brigade, or the 'doctrinal' history of the separatist which, I suspect, is what some nationalists have in mind. When the teaching of the general narrative of Scottish, British and European history was stopped in schools I don't know but it can only be described as breathtaking foolishness. My generation was taught Scottish history from the earliest times through to the development of a nation and into the Union. This was very sensibly accompanied along the line with the history of major developments elsewhere in the UK and in Europe. The result was a generation with the tools to go deeper if required and an undertanding of the contribution made to the flowering of all parts of the UK brought about by the Union. The result was a majority of very proud Scots without the hint of a chip on their shoulder who were very proud to be British.

Yes, let Scottish, British, European and maybe a bit of world history be essential parts of the curriculum, but make sure politicians don't set the agenda.

As for *34 and *46, they and their like must never be allowed near anything that requires reason or the application of intellect.
99

kimba,

21/01/2008 12:07:45
103,Liz. Get real pet,scottish history is nothing to be proud of,YOUR FOR FATHERS MAD SURE OF THAT.
100

Ffion,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 12:09:05
Fine to teach history but not ram it down kids throats especially if it's going to be how wonderful were we-based on long dead kings & queens & hollywood heroes-as a small country on a small island how about learning more about other parts of the world-anyone know much about Estonia, Czech Rep, Turkey etc? A curriculum with histoy at its heart does not augur well for the future.
101

Abel Magwitch,

21/01/2008 12:09:27
Lots of good ideas here. For what it is worth, I'd like to see the Scottish history focussed mainly on the last 3 generations, say from 1900 onwards. Scots could try to understand and deal with the continuing effects of World War I, the depression, the leftwards move in 1945 and the collapse of manufacturing and mining in 1950-1990. One of the most powerful teaching tools would be back-numbers of Scottish newspapers over the 20th century. Another would be a closer study of great Scottish social novels by A.J.Cronin, George Blake and Lewis Grassic Gibbon. If we don't know where we've been, how can we decide where we're going?

The trouble is, those last 100 years were very political! (dearie me). Maybe it would be safer to stick to factoids such as the invention of the hamburger by Ramsay McDonald, and pennicillin by Ian Fleming.

102

kimba,

21/01/2008 12:10:05
104. NOT AT ALL, you are looking at scottish history through rose tinted glasses.
103

Liz,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 12:12:28
#106
I love the way you presume to know who my "FOR FATHERS" are?



104

BMeister,

21/01/2008 12:13:59
#110
And why is your father mad (hopping or loony) and how does she know this?
105

kimba,

21/01/2008 12:17:50
110 Well, I did my history at school, William Wallece, son of Richard the welshman,LOL.
106

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 12:17:56
#110 Liz, avoid Kimba, she's the boards special resident dribbling mentalist. Disagreement tends to bring out threats of lawsuits and mismatched upper and lower case ramblings.


107

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 12:24:05
#97,

Where do you get the idea I'm anti Scottish independence?
108

FreeLand,

The New World 21/01/2008 12:25:03
Hmmm...

"The overwhelming conclusion displayed two dimensions – massive ignorance and a tendency to attribute Scottish woes to the English."

Pretty much sums up the discussion on these boards.

You folks might like to note that the question of what to teach to Scottish kiddies might become academic in a few generations -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/01/24/do2402.xml

Readers planning on living in Scotland for the rest of their days might like to ponder where their pensions will come from.
109

Doh,

21/01/2008 12:30:13


Hopefully they will stress that history is very subjective.

Personally I doubt there will be much emphasis that we as "Scots" have colonised other "nations" all over the world displacing the less "developed" natives or buying their land for next to nothing.

But hey we are Scotland. We are the people. We are a nation.
110

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 12:30:17
Kimba#94,

Didn't the English dominated Westminster invent concentration camps during the Boer War? Do they teach bairns that in English schools?

Have you heard from Magic recently?
111

Dunaskin,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 12:32:34
#65 - where do I say that Scotland = bad, British = good? Where were Adam Smith and James Watt from? Were the Red Clydesiders English? Or did you not learn even that at school? I wouldn't disagree with you about Iraq, though.
#91 - spot on - you obviously know Scotland's history, though I would suggest that the clearances were the biggest in British history, not the world.
112

Em,

21/01/2008 12:32:46
#93

Don't take my word for it, Professor Steven Knight, a recognised Robin Hood expert, concedes that the tales of Robin Hood were based on William Wallace.

But if you care to do any research on the subject for yourself you will find that the only person to embody all of the characteristics of the legendary Robin Hood but to partaking in events that are echoed in the tales of Robin Hood, which do not emerge in any literary form until after his death,is William Wallace.

But hey, you probably wont bother to check it out anyway.
113

wayne bijlyeerheid,

21/01/2008 12:33:06
#112
I also did my history at school and while I have never seen a reference to Wallace's father, it was no secret that he, Wallace, was a Strathclyde Briton with family ties to Wales.
The very name "Wallace", or "Wallis", means "Welsh" so there is no surprise that his father was Welsh, in fact it would be a bigger surprise if he wasn't.
114

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 12:33:32
The objective discussion about the proposal for the introduction of more Scottish History in schools has degenerated into another squabble between Unionists and Nationalist, Scots and English!

One of the greatest experts on Scottish History is an Englishman!

Professor T.C. Smout, retired Emeritus Professor of History at St. Andrews Universtity, and the author of two of the greatest tomes on Scottish History: a History of the Scottish People,and A Century of the Scottish People, was always complaining that Scottish schoolchildren were not taught enough about their own history!

Chris Smout was appalled at the general lack of knowledge on the part of many Scots about their own
pre and post-Union history. What is subversive about teaching more Scottish History IF Chris Smout was in favour of it?

Chris Smout is a world renowned expert on Scottish History and was invited as a visiting Professor to many colleges and universities throughout the world to give talks about his subject!

115

p rayner,

london 21/01/2008 12:36:01
It rather depends on who writes the history . However assuming Scottish history is taught objectively and reasonably accurately , always difficult , I think it to be marvellous project . I believe for a Scottish child it is important to know to whom they belong , just as its important for an English child to know to whom they belong . As a Unionist I believe it ultimately can only be good for the Union in that the discovery of the free and shared contribution of each nation of these islands to the country of Great Britain will arouse , perhaps dormant , perhaps not , feelings that they belong to it too . Don´t be fooled , there are those whose wish is the demise not only of Britain but of England and Scotland too . So I only hope all history is approached with a degree of truth .
116

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 12:46:41
When nationalists get carried away:

http://www.uwenowak.de/bilder/holiday_with_mechthild/stirling/wallace_monument_002_full.jpg

http://www.stanford.edu/~bmcgrew/album/scotland/2005_03_23/slides/IMG_0202.html

What the hell were you nats thinking? People the world over know of this statue!
117

p rayner,

London. 21/01/2008 12:50:31
PWD 105 . I´ve just read your article which I found mirrors my own view . I do HOPE the increased teaching of Scottish history will allow Scottish children to become more aware of the FANTASTIC contribution of Scotland and Scottish people on our rich and successful British history . Lets away with the spitefil nonsense that permeates the pages of this newspaper and others .
118

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 21/01/2008 13:11:41
Appropriate to comment this week that Robert Burns was desperate for Scotland to produce a playwrite of Shakespeare's standard to bring the glorious history of Scotland to the stage. Knowledge of your history is always going to be of benefit. The comments about Scotland's profit from slavery is true as two thirds of Jamaica was once owned by Scots, but Scots were also shipped to the colonies as tied servants and lived in slave quarters. Why do you think so many Afro-Caribbean people have Mac in their names? How many youngsters know that the name McGregor was banned by JamesV1 and how they were hunted by the Campbells for sport, or that MacDonalds were the most powerful family in the British Isles with huge armies at their disposal. Listen and learn.........It's fantastic!!
119

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 13:13:20
119. Just been reading up on a couple of interviews he did and he concedes no such thing! He merely suggests it as a possibility along with several other potential inspirations such as Fulk Fitz Warin, Eustace the Monk and Hereward the Wake.

His basis for saying William Wallace is a possibility?: "The resemblance between Robin Hood and William Wallace is striking: both are provoked to outlawry by legal violence, both go disguised as a potter, and both command substantial numbers of well-disciplined men."

Well, that's it then. Case closed!

Get a grip of yourself, y'muppet!
120

Masque,

21/01/2008 13:16:29
"Why aks me about wars and stuff? I didn't do geography at School!" quote from a reality-show winner on The Weakest Link on Saturday!
121

HIS,

Tranent 21/01/2008 13:18:35
#122 #124

The reason Scots haven't been taught their history is because the unionist establishment knows it will encourage national freedom for Scotland. Pupils would discover both Scotland's true place in the world and the use and abuse of Scotland's land and people by England.

#123 Where is your proof that the vandalism concerned was committed by nationalists, why do you think nationalists would want to vandalise a monument to our national hero?
122

,

21/01/2008 13:28:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

,

21/01/2008 13:28:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
124

An English Voice™,

“Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-dece 21/01/2008 13:29:31
119 has just confirmed my suspicions that the nats are losing all grip on reality, including those that think the England of 700 years ago has any resemblance to today and those that are now trying to hijack English legends.

In the spirit of the union, here is a dose of aforementioned "reality" for their benefit:

YouGov poll 8 Jan 08:

Headline Voting Intention
Labour 36% (+4%)
SNP 30% (-2%)
Con 18% (-1%)
Lib Dem 12% (n/c)
Other 5% (+1%)

Constituency vote
CON 14% (+2%)
LAB 29% (n/c)
LDEM 14% (+1&)
SNP 38% (-2%)

Regional vote
CON 13% (n/c)
LAB 27% (+1%)
LDEM 12% (-1%)
SNP 30% (-4%)

In favour of Scottish independence - 27% (-1% on Mar 07)
In favour of retaining the present Parliament - 57% (+6% since Mar 07)
(And note just the two options)

The SNP’s success in last year’s election was mainly due to the unpopularity of the Labour Party in Scotland - 70% (58% of SNP voters agree)
The SNP’s success in last year’s election was mainly due to the SNP’s popularity - 16% (36% of SNP voters agree)

"Britain should continue to have its own nuclear weapons."
Agree 44%
Disagree 40%

"It is right that Scotland pays its fair share towards Britain’s nuclear weapons."
Agree 55%
Disagree 31%

Where are the nationalist comments on:
a) the declining SNP vote on all polls,
b) the declining support for independence in both two- and three-option questions,
c) that the majority of all voters (and also SNP supporters) agree that it was Labour's unpopularity and NOT the SNP's popularity that won the election and
d) that the majority disagree with the SNP's anti Trident policy.

Anything? Anyone?
125

Royster,

21/01/2008 13:31:47
#129. You're just plain wrong. I went to school just outside Hull in England. We studied great Scots such as James Watt and the Stuarts; Bonnie Prince Charlie. The curriculum was hardly unionist and pro-establishment as it included the American Revolution and the Tolpuddle martyrs. Good old fashioned history teaching examined by the Joint Matriculation Board of red-brick northern universities.
126

,

21/01/2008 13:36:09
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127

Dunaskin,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 13:36:34
Other weird snippets of history that you won't learn at school... QE1 spent more money fighting (pretty unsuccessfully) O'Neill of Ulster than she did against the Spanish. The Elector of Hanover, later George 1, wasn't picked out of the blue to become King of England (and Scotland, etc) - he was related to the sister of Charles 1 - a Stuart. (Fairly sure this is right - she was the widow of the Elector Frederick of Heidelberg (the Rhineland Palatinate) who got his *rse Imperially kicked at the start of the 30 Years War). So, Scots don't have a monopoly on getting a raw deal from London, and our history is more bound up with the English than we think.
128

,

21/01/2008 13:38:27
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129

Royster,

21/01/2008 13:39:26
We also did the Corn laws, Thomas Coke of Hokeham, George III's model farm, the railways and canals, labour legislation (child labour and dockers - 'Not a penny off the pay; not an hour on the day'). It's all flooding back to me now. I'm in a 'Life on Mars' 1970's time-warp!
130

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 13:40:09
131. It was the SNP mob's unceasing abuse of all that diagreed with them that got the Herald boards closed down.

And going by the above opinion polls, I am not the loser here.

I suggest you grow up. Fast.

Just before I get back to work, some comments about nationalism:

“Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.”

“Nationalism is a set of beliefs taught to each generation in which the Motherland or the Fatherland is an object of veneration and becomes a burning cause for which one becomes willing to kill the children of other Motherlands or Fatherlands”

And my particular favourite:

“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”

Quite apt, isn't it!
131

kimba,

21/01/2008 13:44:13
113, Pity you are so full of sh-t, if you think it's ok to post someones photo without consent, you and the rest of your haggis twonks are in for a big shock!
132

kimba,

21/01/2008 13:45:33
AJ. WE TEACH OUR KIDS THE TRUTH,THE BAD AS WELL AS THE GOOD
133

Liz,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 13:52:05
#141
kimba, I am inclined to agree with #113. What on earth are you dribbling on about?
As for calling someone a "haggis twonk" I am half Scottish, a quarter English and a quarter Welsh (but born south of the Border). What does that make me?
(it was you who felt the need to be rude to my FOR FATHERS before, so you are obviously an expert on such matters)

134

,

21/01/2008 13:52:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
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135

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 13:53:17
About time Scottish History was taught in Scottish schools. I remember asking one of my history masters (A Yorkshireman) why we were not taught any Scottish History his reply 'eeh is there such a thing?' Fair enough the educational establishment in question was the very same attended by one T Blair so that probably explains a lot. I find myself now,many years later at Edinburgh University studying the very history I was excluded from as a matter of policy as a boy. (Fettes in those days was still trying to produce loyal little soldiers for the empire, god knows why it was long gone). The one thing that saddens me about this thread is some of the woefully ignorant contributions on the subject of Scottish history. I strongly suggest that some peole here should read a few history books that are not published by Ladybird and that kimba and english voice should just learn to read.
136

kimba,

21/01/2008 13:59:58
141. RUDE,LOL. IS IT NOT A LITTLE MORE THAN RUDE,TO HAVE EVERYTHING YOU SAY DISRESPECTED, MAYBE THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE ARE SO FULL OF HATE THEY WILL SELF DISTRUCT, THIS GUY ASKED FOR A PIC OF ME,HE THEN PROCEEDED TO POST IT ON THE INTERNET, HE AND ALL HIS CHUMS WHO THOUGHT IT A GREAT LAUGH,WILL BE LAUGHING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THEIR FACES SOON.
137

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 14:00:41
ihave just had a zionist on another thread try to catch me out on scottish history so he could justify the theft of palestine its OK iknew so little when i left the dull factory in 60s i educated myself if your going to counter BS merchants you have to be historically aware a good reason to teach the bairns their roots btw....ITS TIME
138

Queen D,

Glasgow 21/01/2008 14:05:44
Multiple postings of poll results do nothing for me.
The only poll I will accept is a referendum on independence,then and only then,will we know the settled will of the people of Scotland.
It is in the interests of unionists and nationalists alike to have this referendum,however only the unionists appear to want to block it.
One can only assume they live in fear of the result.
As for the subject in hand,I can only remember a smattering of Scottish history being taught in my school,all those years ago.The rest was about the British Empire and how great that was,obviously NOT for all.
Now that I have improved my knowledge,I am absolutely horrified by our actions in many and various parts of the world.The British Empire has so much of which to be ashamed.
I would have liked to learn more Scottish history in school and can imagine the young of today being enthralled by the bloodthirsty bits and appalled by the money grubbing betrayals.
139

wayne bijlyeerheid,

21/01/2008 14:08:05
Just what is it that the English are so afraid of, that they are so hostile to Scottish children learning Scottish history? Where exactly do they think they get the right to deny our children access to information regarding their own nation and culture. Or even an opinion on it.
Scots are not taken into account and have no input into what is taught in English schools where they learn "England is an island", "the English army won the war", "the monarchy is in direct line from Alfred the Great", "England has always dominated Britain because of moral right" etc. etc.
#144 "self righteous twits", hahahaha did you go to the same school as "William", "Jennings" or "Billy Bunter"?
Mind you, you only seem to have had a "Bash St" education.
You're a first class tube, old chap/chappette, top hole what?
140

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 21/01/2008 14:11:24
All yee Southerners will be quakin in yer boots
141

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:14:48
151. At least I had a education,not like some of you scots,seems your all "BAWHEIDS"
142

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:15:36
152. why?
143

Royster,

21/01/2008 14:15:39
#99. Oliver Cromwell? Wasn't he the great English social worker?
144

Royster,

21/01/2008 14:17:41
#151. Since when has Scottish education had anything to do with the English? It's a separate system with different exams right up to university. You're not that familiar with Scotland are you?
145

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 14:19:17
Kimba 101, you always know when somebody’s loosing it, when they have digs at somebody else’s spelling, especially when it’s already been corrected.

As for ‘ why is my history lacking,’ here’s a clue, (94) ‘Wallace only won one battle and then he was executed’.

Your grasp of history is about as good as your grasp of reality.
146

Royster,

21/01/2008 14:21:08
#150. So you would have no problem with cattle raiding across the English border, wholesale slaughter of innocents. Scottish history is the same as all history. It's very grubby and brutal.
147

p rayner,

London. 21/01/2008 14:21:09
129 . As I said , I believe the objective teaching of Scottish history to be an antidote of moves to separate Scotland from the UK , not that such desire to separate is anything other than tenuous if my visits to our northern tribes is anything to go by . You seem to equate Britain with the Soviet Union or China , failing to recognise that if there was validity in what you say the Scottish people could , if they chose , simply vote for their separation at every election , which they have conspicuously failed to do . Or could it be you are just an ignorant fellow in need of a few history lessons yourself ?
148

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 14:26:13
Sadly royster the Scottish education system has never really taught Scottish history. The whig construct of history of the late 18th century and indeed much later Scottish historiography arguably up until the late sixties worked on the assumption that Scottish history ended in 1707 and it was heceforth British History. This assumption has long been discarded in academic circles but the light has. alas not shoune any further and certianly not into the schools. It amazes me how an obvious cretin like Peacock could have been allowed anywhere near the educational sysyem.
149

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 14:27:38
about time to im fed up having to tell my son and daughter that they are scottish not british or multicultural that is forced down their throats every day at school WE ARE SCOTTISH WE WILL NOT BE FORCED TO ACCEPT A CULTURE RELIGON THAT IS NOT OUR OWN WE WELCOME ANY ONE TO OUR SHORES WHO WANT TO INTEGRATE BUT SADLY THE MASS MEDIA GOVERMENT QUEEN THAT ARE NOT OUR OWN SEEM TO THINK WE SHOULD ROLL OVER AND BE TAKEN OVER BY ANY MIGRANT THAT COMES HERE
150

,

21/01/2008 14:28:05
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151

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 14:28:11
160 Deary me typos all over the place. Sorry about that
152

Davie08,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 14:29:02
Meant 162. Time for Lunch I think.
153

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/01/2008 14:30:10
Charles Linskaill

Good morning - it is about 9:30 a.m. here and the temperature is -24C WITHOUT windchill factor. BRRRRR!

It is about time that Scots students were taught their illustrious and bloody history. This would appeal to the boys and some of the girls since the clan wars were truly gruesome.

But, for God's sake, don't refer the students to Mel Gibson's "Braveheart". What a piece of misconstrued, mininformed rubbish. It would almost be better to have them watch "Trainspotting".

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Have a GREAT day!
154

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:33:24
159, AS YOU WISH.On the 23rd August 1305,wallace was stripped naked and dragged through the city of London,he was hanged,drawn,and quartered,his preserved head was put on a pike on top of London bridge.
155

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 14:34:48
151. You made this up, didn't you? Own up now...

"Scots are not taken into account and have no input into what is taught in English schools where they learn "England is an island", "the English army won the war", "the monarchy is in direct line from Alfred the Great", "England has always dominated Britain because of moral right" etc. etc."

Once again, the SNP contingent (real and virtual, home and abroad) are asked if there is any chance they can try to win an argument without making such ridiculous crap up??
156

,

21/01/2008 14:36:27
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157

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:38:44
164. Never ever think you and the Tartan Raj have the better of England,you don't,as time will tell.
158

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 14:45:17
NUTCASE ALERT!!!!

Kimba's on the loose....get yer gas masks on!
159

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 14:45:31
Kimba read this very carefully, you wrote that Wallace only won one battle, check your history books.

English voice, why do you assume that all nationalistic posts are members of the SNP
160

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:48:12
174,snp activist,does that mean you speak a lot of cr-p,and bully those who disagree with the party line!
161

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:49:49
175,AJ.Guess you didnae like what happened to the wallace then. tough.
162

BMeister,

21/01/2008 14:52:01
154.
'At least I had a education,not like some of you scots,seems your all "BAWHEIDS"'

If you're going to try and be superior and claim a higher standard of education, you should really avoid basic grammatical errors such as your when you mean you're.

Ah, the benefits of a good Scottish education.
163

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 14:53:14
You could almost, but not quite, feel sorry for some unionists. If it wasn’t enough that they couldn’t come to terms with the fact that they had lost control of Scotland’s present, were losing control of Scotland’s future, they are now showing the same kind of desperation about losing control of Scotland’s past.
164

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 14:53:59
Kimba honey calm down. Who rattled your cage today? You get any more exited you'll be marching on Dunbar and its no very nice at this time of year. Away and have a glass of whatever they drink in your part of the world and have a good lie down and all these nasty jocks will go away.
165

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:54:21
179. Please! it that the best you can do.
166

Enigma,

21/01/2008 14:56:00
151

`Scots have no input into what is taught in English schools`. Maybe not but they sure as hell had input into the funding of English higher education.

`Just what is it that the English are so afraid of,that they are so hostile to Scottish children learning Scottish history?` What on earth gives you that idea?
167

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:56:47
188. what a deluded little scot you are,we are not losing anything,well not unless we want too.
168

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 14:57:06
Strange people, some of these unionist, if a scot comments from abroad they are attacked for doing so, yet when some one who is English does it, there Scottish brethern utter not a peep.

Me, I don't care who comments from where, but some of these unionists.

Maybe it's time we all got back to the article, remember it?
169

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 14:57:16
Kimba,

A thocht it wiz a real shame, especially when the puir boy got his heid chapped aff!

Still, when you compare Wallace's murder with Edward II's, it's a real measure of the difference between England and Scotland! On one hand you have an brave freedom fighter taking the pain of a nation broadly on his shoulders, and on the other, you have a King who was probably enjoying the whole experience, until the last wee bit!!!!

170

wayne bijlyeerheid,

21/01/2008 14:57:20
#s 158 170
What are you on about re.151?
You want to tell us what Scottish children should be taught while you are teaching your children either Scots are so insignificant they don't matter, or they don't exist at all, as in "England is an island".
You want your cake and eat it.
171

kimba,

21/01/2008 14:59:58
183. we just want to protect the wee bairns,wouldn't want them to know how wallace was dragged through London naked then hung,drawn,and quartered,now would we.
172

ochone,

Sauchie Clack's 21/01/2008 15:00:13
Kimba 188, my page is only up to 185 so far!!!
173

wayne bijlyeerheid,

21/01/2008 15:01:10
183, the troll kimba's posts for one.
174

Em,

21/01/2008 15:01:24
#126 & 133 An English voice

There has existed some others who have emulated Robin Hood but these are candidates whose links are tenuous to say the least whilst Wallace possessed every trait of Robin Hood.

There are the numerous tales of Robin Hood that echo so precisley and in such detail events in Wallace's life that it leaves no other explanation as to who the elusive character really was.

Apart from this there is also the same geographical location for the activities of Robin and Wallace Inglewood and Bernisdale to name a couple, but there is a much more significant location, the edge of a forest named Axscherwood, part of the Clyde wood was less than half a mile distant from Paisley Abbey in Renfrewshire. The Wallace family owned land at the nearby village of Elderslie which is spelled differently today but was named after the original Wallace family seat of Ellerslie in Ayrshire.
The Sherwood parish church, Paisley, presently occupies a location on the edge of the former forest.

Also Wallace married the daughter of Sir Hew Braidfute, the heiress of Lamington. Traditionally she had been called Marion Braidfute, and described as 'the fair maid of Lamington'

I could go on all day with the similarities that are just too striking to be a coincidence but I don't have the time to tutor you on this topic.

Think of the embaressment the English establishment would feel if it became common knowldge that their celebrated folk hero was in actual fact an old enemy then perhaps you will understand why the origins of Robin Hood has remained so elusive.
175

BMeister,

21/01/2008 15:01:43
182, No, but you appear exercised enough already by this thread.
176

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 15:02:04
#80 An English Voice™: Playing the poll game are we!!!!!

Sunday Hearld yeasterday (p15) only 3% of Scots see them selfs as Birittish purely or mostly. A massive 73% see them selfs as purely Scottish.


Oh and theres more only 13% of English see them self as Birittish purely or mostly and a more modest 37% see them selfs as purely English.
177

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 15:02:15
Wallace's murder, shamefull indeed kimba.
178

An English Voice™,

Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the me 21/01/2008 15:05:49
164. Is that you, Ayrshire Scot?

Mmm? Is it?

163 is certainly you. No doubt about that!

192. It's a story. A myth. A legend. Fight that sad desperation of yours to get one over the English and trying having a life instead. Yeah?
179

kimba,

21/01/2008 15:08:17
195.It wasn't murder,he was hung for treason.
180

Number 6,

Germany 21/01/2008 15:09:58
At long last. Is this the new scottish enlightenment,
whatever it is it is ten times better than the unionist darkness that has prevailed in the classroom for way too long.The unionist 3 must be terrified of the prospects of Scots finding out how we got into this hopeless mess in the first place.Once we find out where we come from it's easier to realise who we are and where we want to go, not just lead by the leash like the other parties would have it. A great day for our children and something that would never ever happen
under labour or any of the other member of the unionist cabal. Again, the SNP put scotland first.
181

An English Voice™,

Nationalism is the measles of the human race. 21/01/2008 15:12:38
149. RE: "...sneering and slagging off anything Scottish"

Once again, I am against this psychotic and desperate nationalism NOT the Scottish in general.

If I was against everything Scottish, I wouldn't want them in the UK, would I. Can you grasp that yet? I have told you and the other ranting and raving SNP types several times. Get it to sink in....

I am against this psychotic and desperate nationalism NOT the Scottish in general.
182

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 15:12:49
Em#192,

Interestingly, the Robin Hood character in Shrek has a French accent! This clouds the Robin Hood issue even further! Perhaps it was Mike Myers emphasising the fact that the English were soundly thrashed and conquered by the Normans and perhaps the Gallic lingo was the norm.





183

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 15:15:28
Just to change the subject anyone notice on the Joan of Arc programme the other night that one of the 'English' defenders had a Scots accent. Funny that seeing as we were on the other side at the time and the Scots soldiers were in fact the last to remain with the maid of Orleans. Just thought we might discuss some real history while we are here.
184

kimba,

21/01/2008 15:18:13
177,only because they couldn't hack it in Englands education system.
185

kimba,

21/01/2008 15:20:00
203,like I SAID,HE WAS HUNG,JUST LIKE A SIDE OF BEEF.
186

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 15:25:06
Kimba, I'm still waiting on you getting back to me about Wallace only winning the one battle before he was executed, seems it slipped your mind.

I am interested to hear what you might have to say, you being such an expert on all things Scottish.

Now, how many battles was it again?
187

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 15:25:13
Davie08#207,

They simply ran oot of English actors who were hard enough to depict tough Medieval Knights!

You'll notice they have a endless supply of Hugh Grant types and various other light footed Sebastians, but never enough examples of proper masculinity!
188

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 15:30:14
#106 kimba: Why do you bother writing such k**ch!!!!

There's a lot to prod about in Scottish history, though you properly wouldn't understand.

Personally I'm uninesly prod of my ancestors in 1706 holding demonstrations in numerous towns and city across Scotland against the union and burning written copies of the proposed Union. (That's just wan thing though, there is numerous others)

You can't tell someone what they can and can't feel!!!
Try as us might you can't control someone else feelings and pride is a feel, in case you've forgotten.
189

David Ban,

04620 Vera 21/01/2008 15:33:14
Scottish History is fascinating: think of Queen Margaret in the 11th.century with her powerful and romantic association with Malcolm Kenmore the 3rd. (Calum Ceann Mor)What a woman, beautiful, strong and pivotal in changing Scotland for the better including the introduction of tartan.
Instead of these dreadful remakes of Elizabeth the first what a story we have in the "Blessed Margaret".

Coming to the 20th.century a gaelic speaking youth from the Isle of Skye never knew anything about the clearances until he left school. There is a lot of history to be taught
190

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/01/2008 15:36:24
Why IS 171 posting in Latin?

Is he or she trying to show off or what? I can read Latin and understand what was written but what percentage of people posting to this site would comprehend what was written in a DEAD language - "dead" except to scholars and students of languages.

He or she has a valid point to make but I wonder if it was "cribbed" from some book or pamphlet. I hope it is not a case of plagiarism.
191

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/01/2008 15:36:27
Why IS 171 posting in Latin?

Is he or she trying to show off or what? I can read Latin and understand what was written but what percentage of people posting to this site would comprehend what was written in a DEAD language - "dead" except to scholars and students of languages.

He or she has a valid point to make but I wonder if it was "cribbed" from some book or pamphlet. I hope it is not a case of plagiarism.
192

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 15:39:35
#199 kimba: Aye, BUT wrongfully because he wasnae English and he had nae took an oath to say that he would server the English king. Which is what he would have need to have done have comited treason, by fighting against the English rule.
193

Janis *,

21/01/2008 15:39:47

Kimba I would have said hung & not hanged. But like you I'm English & it's our language so who are we to be lectured to!

Methalion instead of slagging off Kimba's figure why not keep to subject of thread, just as you patronisingly suggested EV should.

Royster, yep I was taught British History too, nothing parochial about my Scottish history teacher.

Some historians have claimed that King Arthur was a Scot as well as Robin Hood....ho hum.
194

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 15:41:39
211. Ah, let them get on with it. I want to see how far back they will go to find reasons to complain!

215. So, how many battles (that's 'battles', not small-scale skirmishes) did he win? You are clearly an expert on this.

Go for it, blow our ****ing socks off!
195

pwd,

Hawick 21/01/2008 15:48:45
*133 English Voice
Well said as always, and there are more with you than voted SNP.
196

Enigma,

21/01/2008 15:49:37
221

But sold for a crock of gold by his own side.
197

Number 6,

Germany 21/01/2008 15:52:08
#223 "How many battles did he win ?." There will be little need to dwell on battles. Scottish history is full of much much more. When Scottish children learn what SCOTLAND has given the world, from the US to China,From Russia to Japan then they will swell with genuine pride in their country and their nationality.

Few countries of merit define their history by the amount of sabre rattiling it indulges in. The contributions to the world from such a small nation, are collosal and should be celebrated.
198

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 15:52:12
222. I wondered when King Arthur would pop up!

It is interesting than the nats are working harder to denigrate England than to celebrate all things Scottish...
199

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 15:54:48
#216 AJ thanks for that it clears up an issue or two. There was me getting all Scottish and chippy with the thought that some lazy and ignorant screenwriter had assumed that the Hundred Years War was the 'Britsh' against the French. I shall remember the next time I see one of the Beeb's travesties, sorry period dramas, that RADA only teaches louche. BTW loved 'light footed Sebastians' can I pinch it for future use.
200

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 15:54:59
English Voice, no, we will let Kimba answer, there's your expert and how like a unionist to try and qualify things to make it easier for a pal.

Kimba, lets be hearing from you, don't your pal English Voice waiting.

BTW, English voice, good of you to take such an interst in Scottish Education.
201

,

21/01/2008 15:55:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
202

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 15:57:24
231. Just answer the question.
203

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 15:58:09
232,

oops, how did that happen!?
204

Enigma,

21/01/2008 15:59:10
229

I dont think there is any question but that the mythical Arthur, had he existed would not have been English. What description he would be given is up for grabs, a Celt, an Iron Age chieftan, who knows but probably even less Scots than those Chessmen! We don`t even know where he came from.
205

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 16:03:34
English Voice, just to makes things nice and clear, here is the definition of Battle from Webster's English Dictionary.

a combat or fight between two opposing individuals or armies:a contest, tofight, to struggle.

206

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 16:03:34
Dave#230,

Be my guest! They like the period dramas, don't they! Every month a new adaption of Pride and Prejudice gets shown on EBC1! The English male acting fraternity sure like dressing up in big poofy blouses. Perhaps it was this 'lightfootedness' that cost them dear in 1066!
207

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 16:03:42
@218 we do need to better learn scots history davy my love most especially if we are going claim st margret introduce tartan to scotland. reference to party coloured ie checkered cloth abound in classical sources when describing celts i really dont think an aethelinga could claim that however civilising you might find her
208

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 16:05:59
Why, where is your expert Kimba?
209

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 16:06:00
Why, where is your expert Kimba?
210

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:08:17
237

So much better to follow the Scots example, get an anti-semitic Aussie to play our macho heroes:)
211

GP,

21/01/2008 16:15:25
I agree with the sentiment of teaching more localised history. But usually history or at least the writings are left by victors not the downtrodden and defeated.
I got Scottish history at primary school and it was explained to us how these people called Scots from another island of our coast first took control of the western side of what we now call Scotland before eventually taking control of it all. I don't think these people called the island they came from Ireland but the Irish did live there as well. Anyway they wrote the history of Scotland as they saw fit and those tribes who did not retain their history were stage manaaged out of the scene.
Coming from the east side of this land sometimes we have a different perspective on the invaders of allsorts.
212

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 16:16:05
#237 AJ Fife: They don't halth speak funny!!

Was trying to watch an episode of that period drama, yesterday, BUT I just dinnae ken what they were on about halth of the time. BUT then again I was reading the Sunday Herald at the same time and that made a lot of sense and had some interesting stories in it to the bargain.
213

pwd,

Hawick 21/01/2008 16:17:25
Very interesting - the quality of a debate seems to degenerate in direct proportion to the number of Nationlists taking part.
214

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 16:17:57
name wallace almost surely from welsh marches but others wish to see gwal as in pen gwal modern ceann gwal (kinneil) i blame skene
215

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:19:10
244

Poor old Jane Austen must be turning in her grave then, pearls before swine!
216

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 16:19:57
241 Actually enigma I think you will find that the film to which you refer was written and cast in the US. One might as well sneer at Roman slaves for Kirk Douglas's performance in Spartacus. BTW in what way are you enigmatic or do you think the name makes you sound all wimdswept and interesting? If so it's not working.
217

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 16:22:33
English Voice, look I can't wait around here any longer, if Kimba gets back you could mention the likes of Loudon Hill, (not to be confused with the battle Bruce fought there), Ayr, Ardrossan Castle etc, that should keep the expert busy for now.

pwd, and we have had really quality input from the likes of Kimba or don't unionist posts count
218

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:24:14
250

Sensitive little chap aren`t you. Thought you of all people would enjoy a wind-up, seems I was right.
219

Janis *,

21/01/2008 16:28:32

DaveSubsea......251......No need to bother with that link, just read the tea-towel. Most English persons have one, brought back by compatriots travelling north of the border...oh how we larf!!
220

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 16:30:14
SORRY 247 gwal =wall.........ceann =head (end)like wallsend in geordieland
221

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 16:31:41
Janis,

Jealousy will get you nowhere Honey! Next time you're drying the dishes for your man, have a wee look at that tea towel in detail and weep!:)
222

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:31:59
255

Great Scots? Look no further than our own dear PM!
223

Miss H,

21/01/2008 16:32:55
134 Royster - it's good to hear that you studied Scottish history at a school in England.

The problem is that too many schools in Scotland did not offer that facility.

This is a complete no-brainer really. Every schoolchild should learn about the history of their own country. Does anybody think that is a bad idea?

224

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 16:33:45
254
Not sensitive in the slightest old boy just ever so slightly bored at the lack of originality. It would seem that there are those who have never heard of the fine old Scots tradition of flyting, or if they have are unaware that it requires a certain amount of wit to take part.
225

kimba,

21/01/2008 16:34:50
231 WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO ANSWER.
226

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:35:27
A stirring assembelage of Scots ingenuity I don`t doubt, but as Johnson observed `The finest site any Scotsman can behold is the road to ......d:)
227

Janis *,

21/01/2008 16:35:53

Got a dishwasher AJ ..257.. No the tea towel does very nicely cleaning the BMW (or the Audi or the Merc) So our gardener tells me:-)
228

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:36:23
261
And there are those who take themselves rather too seriously.
229

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 16:42:35
Janis,

You really are posh....interestingly, the modern dish washer was invented by a Scot - Hugh McDishwasher (hence the name).
230

Enigma,

21/01/2008 16:42:54
266

I`ll remember that next time I`m in West Smithfield!
231

Joanna,

Cambs, England 21/01/2008 16:43:24
AJ

Re: the 'light-footed Sebastian' you originally mentioned. Hugh John Mungo Grant is a descendant of the Grants of Glenmoriston from a long line of Scots military men, doctors and explorers, including William Drummond and Dr. James Stewart.

His mother was a McClean ..... I think that makes him more Scottish than English. Perhaps he could play 'the Wallace' next time.

232

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 16:46:44
As long as what is taught is factually correct, and therefore history,and not doctored to suit either the retention or equally the dissolution of the Union,then no one can have any objections. Our true history ,is the only one which happened ,and is therefore the only version which should be taught. I have known a few history teachers over the years who would remind us that what was taught was not a problem in so much as,its what was ommitted( when clearly in their opinion it should have been included),or at least thats the reponse I was given.
This is their individual opinion of course and there are as many opinions as their are teachers presumably!
For me the real question is ...........................
Who can we agree should decide this?Can we agree?

I neither want to teach children falsehood nor selective emphasis,since "innacuracies" do not support anyones case long term, and there is no longer term than history which must be by its inclusiveness, as near to infinity as we can ever hope to strive for!

As an example I would offer the folk song "Haughs o Cromdale".It suggests a Jacobite victory. In fact the song conveniently marries two battles Cromdale and Auldearn which were 45 years apart and resulted in the Jacobites fleeing for their lives,(the opposite of what the song describes).Clearly the temptation to romanticise our past is always present.
233

AJ Fife,

21/01/2008 16:47:25
Joanna,

I knew that, and that's why I seperated Hugh from the light-footed Sebastians in my earlier post. At least Mr Grant has an eye for the ladies!
234

GorgieCorby,

Northants 21/01/2008 16:48:05
Jolly good idea. Do you think the curriculum will mention the biggest wave of Scottish Emigration in its history? Namely, those Lowland Scots Presbyterians who emigrated to Ulster in the seventeenth century - tens of thousands, who to this day constitute that largest Protestant denomination in Northern Ireland. No, probably not - mustn't upset anyone.
235

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 16:48:47
Teaching the youth about Scottish history is a good thing. When I was at Primary school the only history we got about Scotland was purely about Glasgow and started in the 1920's.

Then in high school, we talked a wee bit about the middle ages in Scotland, which considen in us learning that Edinburgh Castle like many other castles in Scotland was built on an exstited Volcano.

Then a whole 5minutes was spent explaining all about the wars of independence. Aparntly the story of the battle of Banockburn and battle of Striling bridge are so similair they can be both sumed up in a few sentences.

Both wars envovled water and making the English who wore expesive heavy clothing (armer) atempt to cross the water. The Scots who wore cheaper clothing (with no heavy armer) fond it easy to cross the water without sniking BUT the English armys armer was to heavy so they droned. (can't belive they feel for the same thing twice)

It's hard to belive that was all that there was to both the story of the Battel of Banockburn and Battel of Striling Bridge.

Oh yea and I was told by a high school teacher who was English that pre the union all the Scots did was paint there faces blue (I remeber thinking Aye, right, you've been watching to much Braveheart)

I personaly had to learn about Scottish history through my family and through other medium.
236

Davie08,

a basement at Edinburgh uni 21/01/2008 16:49:02
265
And you have no idea what I'm talking about. Or is this you being enigmatic. If so you could have said so several posts ago it would have saved a lot of bother.
237

Border Scot,

21/01/2008 16:49:08
There is no one history of Scotland, there are many histories of Scotland. It will be interesting to see what the new curriculum comes up with. My guess is that it will be pretty balanced and that many of the more ludicrous SNP supporters on here will be pretty disappointed. Fiona Hyslop seems to be talking to sense. A pity a few of her supporters are not.

In another note, British or English history is pretty absent from English schools as far as I can tell. Friends who live down south say that their kids are taught mostly about 20th century European history. I would be surprised if many English kids could tell you the names of the monarchs of the last 100 years, let alone fromm 1066 onwards.
238

CANUCK,

TORONTO 21/01/2008 16:50:16
Thank goodness that Scottish History is going back to the heart of Scottish Schools -as a school child of the fifties in Scotland we were taught it all and we loved it - Knowing ones own history intimately gives one a great identity plus it allows one to understand and appreciate the history of others
239

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 21/01/2008 16:53:57
#267 I'll try. The true Scots, irrespective of politics or religion are in favour of Scottish history being returned to the clasroom. Unfortunately the discussion was hijacked by the usual bunch of clowns and morons who are sadly lacking in the brain cell department and who would struggle to tell what day of the week it is let alone what happened a few centuries ago.
240

Janis *,

london 21/01/2008 16:56:30

Hi Joanna..270..... LOL..... & Hi Spook..... 259..... no I'm not something else (got censored)how's your 6 pack? I'm off to cook supper so not too many meaty details please.
241

Joanna,

Cambs, England 21/01/2008 16:58:49
AJ Fife 272

Aye... and this lady has an eye for him!! ;)
242

BMeister,

21/01/2008 17:02:19
#282 joanna

Is it not, I was worried, I thought she was looking a little off-colour.
243

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:04:02
#267 The Genuine Mario Antoinette:
Scotland is braw and it's braw to be Scottish!!
Allways has been always will be!!!
Our history is more important to us than English history! So Scottish history should be taught in our schools.

244

EJN,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 17:08:22
#219 - TimW1234

No he's not showing off. I think you'll find that it is an abstract from the Declaration of Arbroath.

"yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the king of england or the english, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our king; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under english rule. it is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."



245

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 17:08:54
#146 KIMBA,

"THIS GUY ASKED FOR A PIC OF ME,HE THEN PROCEEDED TO POST IT ON THE INTERNET, HE AND ALL HIS CHUMS WHO THOUGHT IT A GREAT LAUGH,WILL BE LAUGHING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THEIR FACES SOON."

Madame/Sir desist with these lies, I have never seen a photograph of you, unless of course the photo that Methalions posted was actually you and your sister returning from your work at the local pantomime. Was it really you?


Dear Unionist brethren can I just say how wonderful it is for us supporters of Scottish Independence to have the fragrant KIMBA on your side of the political divide. She truly lights up all but the most miserable days with her well thought out, carefully considered ripostes to us insolent scamps. Please do defend her as she is your most precious asset.




246

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:09:04
Oh dear , has anyone else noticed if you don't post a comment or click refresh button you get cut off every 10-20mins and have to go through the bother of signing in again. It's really irritating!!!!
247

BMeister,

21/01/2008 17:12:19
#279 joppa Jock

Agree with you that to me it makes sense to have Scottish history taught to Scots as part of the history curriculum.

Looking at the first 30 or so posts it would appear that most agree. Unfortunately there's folk on both sides who seem to think that it's no fun unless fighting and biching with 'the other side' and so when there's a general consensus going on the fallback seems to be the unionist/nat yah-boo stuff.
248

p rayner,

London 21/01/2008 17:15:27
AJ FIFE . I´ve been searching my history books for hours and can find no reference to the Scot Hugh Macdishwasher ! You sure ? Spookily though my dishwasher is called a dishwasher .
249

Allan(handofgod137),

21/01/2008 17:19:19
Nice one, I think that snp support will drop however when people start learning about how all of britain has benifited from the union.
250

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 21/01/2008 17:21:39
Kimba, 262, spare me the unionist ploy of 'not knowing what the question was,' don't be so lazy, go back up the posts and you will find it!
251

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:24:13
#287 OscarMacApfel: Aye!!! Thats the power of telling people what to belive, what to feel and then call them names cause their opinion is diffrent!!! It's a real gift!!!!
252

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:25:52
Aong with the good stuff let us not forget that the Scots were paramount to the success of the slave trade, they actually had tables of death rates on slave ships that permitted them to take enough food assuming that death rate during the journey
253

Ananurhing,

21/01/2008 17:29:39
This can only be a good thing. Following on from the St. Andrews day celebrations, when Scottish primary schools learned all about Andrew, Scottish flag, Athelstaneford etc. All very positive and assertive.
I remember primary school history, being taught all about 1066, The Magna Carta, Tudors etc.
Not even a mention of the Declaration of Arbroath, The Disruption, or British tanks on Clydeside.
Thankfully my kids who are of primary age, will not have the same ignorance thrust upon them. They already give their Dragoness blatantly unionist teacher a run for her money.
This seems to have degenerated into another sectarian bunfight. Given that English culture seems to have turned in on itself, maybe they should be doing something similar to revisit the many things English that they should rightfully be proud of. Like the most expressive language the world has ever known. Na' wha' ah mayne!
See,...if only they had their own parliament! Come on England! Rise now and be a nation again! ( You could incorporate that into a new anthem.)
254

buidhe,

Domhnall Eachainn 21/01/2008 17:29:52
It is good to read that the SNP are so strongly in support of Scottish History on the school curriculum, and hope that Gaelic History will also be taught to all Scottish children. After all their is nothing more Scottish than the Gaelic language and various facets of its culture. Good on you SNP.
255

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA..captured from Mexico 1845 21/01/2008 17:30:18
Pledge to reclaim Scottish history for our children
---------------------------------------------

To you "all knowing" Dudes. You should know that,

History and Flags are akin to Religions.

The former two, are catalysts for the latter, which is a disease of the mind.

Known as 'Cancer of the MIND'

Save you children from destruction of their innocent minds.

GC
256

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:33:57
and along with slavery expertise we also gave the world the work "BLACKMAIL" as the highlanders also organised it even beating the mafia!!!
257

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 17:38:26
#300

GC we pray you don't procreate.
258

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:41:12
#294 Allan(handofgod137): Benefit!!!! You reading a diffrent history book. Parhaps it's the sameone that one of my teachers had read when they decide to say that Scotland past consited of Scots painting their faces Blue!!! While at the sametime other countries where enventing exsiting new things!!!! (I had a good laugh to myself when they spoke that kind of nonsence)
259

Edward,

21/01/2008 17:43:21
I think having more about Scottish history in Schools is an excellent idea.
When I was at schooll many many years ago (60's/70's) History consisted of the Tudors, Clive of India and Mary Queen of Scots.
Scotland has a vast wealth of History stretching back to the 8th and 9th century. If children were taught history of Scotland before William Wallace so at least they would understand why things happened. The same can be said about other important parts of Scottish History such as the Darien project, which will help to understand the run up to the act of union. Then how Scots were involved and participated in other countries histories
260

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:45:44
Edward what date in your history book was Scotland an entity??
261

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:49:38
305, and also Edinburgh is the kiddie porn capital of the world, 707 perps about to be arrested.

I disagree about Aberdeen, it is a very generous city and its folks very kind, remeber ARI?? or was that before your time.

We do have high knife crime in Glasgow but not the worst in the world, Scotland does however lead in teen pregnancies in EU.
262

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 17:50:05
300; GC - the love grandchild of Henry Ford

302; it was the Border Reivers who turned blackmail (aka protection racket) into a fine (black) art.

Anyway, why should kids have to rely on school for their history education ? Go to a library that hasn't been dumbed-doon !
263

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 17:50:05
300; GC - the love grandchild of Henry Ford

302; it was the Border Reivers who turned blackmail (aka protection racket) into a fine (black) art.

Anyway, why should kids have to rely on school for their history education ? Go to a library that hasn't been dumbed-doon !
264

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 17:50:06
300; GC - the love grandchild of Henry Ford

302; it was the Border Reivers who turned blackmail (aka protection racket) into a fine (black) art.

Anyway, why should kids have to rely on school for their history education ? Go to a library that hasn't been dumbed-doon !
265

Eve,

21/01/2008 17:51:19
#301 Ross Fyffe: wise up all nations have Pisces of history which are negative!!!! Why are you choosing to dwell in it!!! No other country choices to dwell in what they did that was wrong they expect it and celebrate what they did that was right.

It's important to note what we did that was wrong and NOT to repeat it, BUT it's important that we celebrate what we did that was right. Also the fact that we were an independent nation and have the ability to be an independent nation again.
266

buidhe,

Domhnall Eachainn 21/01/2008 17:51:22
I was taught both Scottish Lowland History and Highland, North East Highlands and East Perthshire and Stirlingshire Gaelic History. Much of which is very different from what you get in the history books in Scotland today.

One would think that the Gaelic language was never a part of these areas with what I read on some sites.
How can a population be so lacking in knowledge and so wilfull in trying to deny what was around them until very recently.

I can never thank the people involved in An Comunn Gaidhealach and other organisations and individuals enough. Who were and are from as far apart as Glenshee, Braemar, Blairgowrie, Kilinn and Balmaha for their knowledge and enthuasiasm for all things connected with their Gaelic language and culture locally. They really have been an inspiration to me.
267

Ananurhing,

21/01/2008 17:52:40
304# Edward
Perhaps children should also be taught how influential Scots have been in helping many other countries achieve their independence. Such as, India, Norway, Denmark, Chile, Peru, Brazil, Greece, USA etc.
268

ancient mariner alx,

aberfoyle 21/01/2008 17:54:38
many interesting and 'duff' comments so far - here is mine -
regardless of religion, politics, or any other category - our history should be first and foremost in history subjects.
269

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 21/01/2008 17:57:37
Eve you make my point elequently, thank you, how can we not repeat it if it is not taught in the first place.

look at the film braveheart and the bruce, would you class them as history?

My point about the slavery is that is is part of Scottish history, and we cannot pick and choose what we teach.
270

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 21/01/2008 18:00:41
Gaelic was nver used to any great extent in the lowlands or on the east coast, don't go re-writing history to show anything else .........
271

Sam,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 18:01:36
Just the other day I reread a modern translation of the English report of the Battle of Falkirk. The battle was fought on a hill side just west of Linlithgow, within the sight of the Linlithgow market cross. After all the centuries the spot is still green field. There is history everywhere in Scotland and it is just under foot. Consider, the blood of Wallis's army flows today in the veins of Scots. And you, gentle reader, are but 20 handshakes distant from Robert the Bruce.
272

henrymanchester,

UK 21/01/2008 18:04:16
You are not supposed to have a history. it'll upset and offend all those poor delicate asylum seekers.
273

Publius,

London 21/01/2008 18:05:08
Many children leave school after years of English and Maths without being able to read, write or count. No matter how much History is drummed into them, they wont't succeed in learning History either.

What the SNP has in mind is propaganda...but it won't work. In Russia three generations of people learned nothing about history except that the October revolution was a good thing and Communism was inevitable. And this message was reinforced by the entire press, radio and TV. But even after 70 odd years hardly anyone believed it and Communism collapsed overnight.

P.S. Where does Irish immigration in the 19th century and religious conflict fit into the history curriculum?


274

Publius,

London 21/01/2008 18:07:36
P.P.S.
What about Bruuce's spider?
275

sofiatemplar,

Canada 21/01/2008 18:09:16
Being from Canada and having Scottish roots is important to, not only myself, but my children. When I teach them of Scotlands history and past, they always ask about our clans involvement. This to me is important fedback, for one, it tells me that they have a good grasp of their roots,and exactly where they come from. Other children wouldn't understand they even belong to a clan.

I'm glad Scotland will teach its youth of their past, good on all who brought this topic to light.

Best,
Shawn Sinclair
276

Kyle,

Granton 21/01/2008 18:09:45
Long overdue.

Why did we have to learn about The Tudors, the Norman Conquest et al at the expense of the history of our own nation?

Might I suggest that this was another subtle Unionist tactic to play Scotland down and undermine the confidence of the Scottish people(s) to move forward to full independence. Scotland's youth is Scotland's future.

Well done Fiona Hyslop and the SNP - at last a government that has one loyalty - to Scotland.
277

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/01/2008 18:12:17
320 - why should it upset asylum seekers ? More likely it'll upset the North Brits and the Labour Party up here.
278

missssh,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 18:12:57
i think this is fantastic.i am someone who did six years of secondry school history, right through to advanced higher, and was always keen to do scottish history when i could, but the opportunity was scarce. i evantually applied to university to study scottish history, but things came up, and i now study nursing.
from my point of view, more scottish history is definately needed, and from my experience, the teachers would be more than willing if the curriculum and resources permitted.
279

Sambo,

The deep south 21/01/2008 18:14:15
I believe the kids don't want to know about history cause there's no future in it. After all it's just one thing after another.
280

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:14:39
More Gaelic medium schools would ensure children had a sound knowledge of their past and present. Gaelic is instrinsic to our history and identity and is our oldest spoken language - still used not only on Highland crofts but in schools and colleges north and south. It also gives our kids 'another window on the world' and an ideal springboard to learn another tongue.

Pity there's still some whingers who can't see the advantages GME brings kids. Maybe they're too scared to find out too? The name 'Gordon' comes to mind here!
281

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 18:15:14
#316 Ross Fyffe: You've got teach the positive first!!!
Make the youngster feel good about their ansestors!

One thing I rember form round about the time Braveheart was relaist (it was actaly before BUT near, may be a a year before) that alot of my classmates had some national pride.

Most of the film have so called stars with doggy acsents!!!!

This was NOT because of the film BUT which had very little truth in it what so ever BUT was because with the contrast of the film there was some sort of documentry shown on the telly before the film was realsed about the truth and talking about the mistakes that Mel and co made.

"the bruce"!!!! Never heard of it!!!! Let alone watched it.

Saw a wee bit of Rob Roy once!!!!


I understand that Scotland had traitors through out our history. After all a bunch of them did sell us to the union!!!
282

walter,

21/01/2008 18:15:15
I have read the article but not the post as I will presume by now that they are going on about people different slants of history.
I do not see why the unionist would view the move with suspicion it is an excellent idea.
As long as history is being taught as it is known to have happened and not with a slant to push an agenda one way or another then there is nothing wrong with teaching Scottish history.
We Scots have a lot to be proud of, the exploits of our ancestors both before and after the act of union should be taught in schools rather than our kids growing up believing what they see in the movies and accepting that as history.
283

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 18:16:01
276

The problem with your offering is you assume that the history you were taught was correct.We have no way of knowing this and neither do you!
You will presumably have been taught what was in the nationally agreed course.How do you know if that is in fact correct, when you were still learning history?You need to have studied history to know if what you are being taught is correct!

I have spent most of my life learning history which was either not included in my school history, or I simply did not learn any! I suspect a combination of the two is probably correct.
284

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 18:19:05
#318 Ross Fyffe: Who do you know!!

I heard that up in till the 1920's the languge mostly heard in Glasgow closes was Gaelic.
285

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 21/01/2008 18:23:08
I quote one well-known half English and half American former PM: "Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Having said that, we should strive to uncover every last bit of ALL our history and heritage, whether we enjoy or despise it - it is ALL part of our history. I applaud any effort to promote history, it is not boring and dull, it is learning. As much a part of education as the arts, mathematics, and the sciences, history should be taught by people passionate about history, not just droning on about dates, places and names. Whether some agree or not, history, ALL of it, is very relevant to today's world - for history is a succession of life from "away back then" until now, and ALL history impacts today in some form or fashion. It should be re-researched, every scrap of it, to rid it of political bias and attempted covering up of facts, and then, in it's pure form, presented to all of us, not just school children. From there we can then truly learn. Give up on political posturing about this particular news article, and focus instead on how we ALL might contribute to the matter at hand: research, present, teach, and be aware of Scottish history. Then and then only might we break the centuries old habit of history being re-written by the conquerer. And whilst we are at it, perhaps this way of preserving heritage could be applied to ALL countries and nationalities - we may just come away learning more about each other globally instead of retreating into our respective "corners" being ignorantly content of the half-truths and outright false information we now seem to focus and debate on.
286

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:27:25
Ross Fyfee - why not go to the School of Scottish Studies and listen to their recordings of native Lowland and East Coast Gaelic. In fact, you'll still find some speakers in East Sutherland.

Why do you bigots just open your gobs and let rip with your ignorance? You're certainly a good advert for more education.
287

morris,

Edinburgh 21/01/2008 18:31:24
330

Just for the record Scots Gaelic is considered to be the undiluted mother tongue of the European Celts, from thousands of years ago. It currently has around 50,000 speakers here ,and there are now more in Canada!
It spread as far south as Dun Eidean (Edinburgh) at its most popular,but quickly receded again . I think a single generation was the length of its stay in the current capital, but I would say to those who deny Gaelic,anyone who would allow a language to die,allows a culture and literature to die with it, and that cannot be to anyones advantage. Many nations are multilingual. WE should be also.

The Gaelic tongue is very similar to some other Celtic languages ,notably Erse of course (spoken in Ireland) which derived from Gaelic (as still spoken here)and became the dominant language and culture in preference to that of the Picts.

There is a place for Gaelic. NO man has the right to deny a cultures existence except perhaps for himself.

It should be taught in our schools.Its as much part of our history and culture as much as being anglicised is.
288

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA..captured from Mexico 1845 21/01/2008 18:32:24
30
Calum Crubag,
21/01/2008 18:14:39
More Gaelic medium schools would ensure children had a sound knowledge of their past and present. Gaelic is instrinsic to our history and identity and is our ldest spoken language
------------------------------------------

Dude,

Gaelic is a DEAD language , just like LATIN is.

Should the Italians force their children to learn LATIN ??

Hey Dude
Google , IBM, Microsoft, Sun Systems Intel , AMD,
DELL, don't hire LATIN speaking engineers nor do they hire Gaelic speaking engineers (if they exist).

Get real Dudes,

And crawl out from under ur dark historical caves into the sunlight of CPU soon to be a molecular CPU ,

The M CPU will allow HomoSapiens who are educated to look at the the "googol second" after the Universe came into existence.

What can Gaelic do for you pay check. ZILCH...

GC

289

Richardinho,

21/01/2008 18:32:26
I learnt all the medieval stuff in primary school and then in secondary school I learnt about the industrial revolution, the enlightenment, world war 1 etc.

That seems the obvious way to do it. Teach the younger kids the exciting history that will catch their imagination, and give older children the more analytical stuff.
290

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 18:35:19
It's a braw bricht moon licht nicht the nicht!!!

(don't we all wish!!)
291

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 18:39:56
342

Hey Galactic Canonball
Why dont you climb inside Mons Meg and we can find out if it still works ?
292

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 18:41:10
#318

"Gaelic was nver used to any great extent in the lowlands or on the east coast, don't go re-writing history to show anything else ........."

Michty someone's showing there ignorance.

Mmm Gaelic placenames throughout Galloway, the written references in the poem 'The Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy' from the early 1500's wherein William Dunbar (representing Lothian, and Anglian Scotland) and Walter Kennedy (representing Carrick and Gaelic Scotland) argue.

Dunbar ridicules Kennedy's 'Heland' accent and Erische language, whilst Kennedy defends it, saying "all trew Scottismennis leid" and telling Dunbar "in Ingland sowld be thy habitation."

The meaning being that from a Lothian perspective in the early sixteenth century, Carrick and Galloway still represented Gaelic Scotland, just as Lothian did Anglian Scotland.

See Lorimer, W.L. "The Persistence of Gaelic in Galloway and Carrick", in Scottish Gaelic Studies, VI.2 (1949), pp. 114-36
293

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:56:38
342 - really? Come here and find out. I use it every day in conversation and ICT.

I wish the Scotsman could stop those with an IQ of less than 50 posting here.
294

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:56:38
342 - really? Come here and find out. I use it every day in conversation and ICT.

I wish the Scotsman could stop those with an IQ of less than 50 posting here.
295

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:57:44
Galactic could do with some Gaelic - it would at least improve his English skills.
296

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:57:44
Galactic could do with some Gaelic - it would at least improve his English skills.
297

Calum Crubag,

21/01/2008 18:57:44
Galactic could do with some Gaelic - it would at least improve his English skills.
298

buidhe,

Domhnall Eachainn 21/01/2008 19:03:28
The Gaelic Bible was translated by both Perthshire and Stirlingshire Gaelic speakers, Rob Roy was a Gaelic speaker before he could speak English and John Brown of Queen Victoria's time was a Gaelic speaker from the North East.

What is it that terrifies so many in Scotland about their Gaelic Heritage.
299

not-Hamish,

fife 21/01/2008 19:14:16
It's great that scottish history is to make a comeback but spare us all the total nonsense about Garlic - a totally useless, pointless language which is simply a history piece and should be preserved in the literary museum. It was only a tiny, trivial part of scotland's story and doesn't deserve the over-the-top hype it gets never mind being forced on school children by peter peacock to win a few votes in the heelans and by heart-rules-the-head parents who should be encouraging their children to learn modern languages to help the country's economy. Traders abroad don't want to have to speak our national language, english, to please us - they want us to show respect and deal with them in their own languages!! Garlic has no value whatsoever as a means of communication other than as a secret language among Garlic speakers!! It hardly merits a mention in scotland's history.
300

Enigma,

21/01/2008 19:30:59
347

`The English Government banned the wearing of the kilt`

I can quite see why more teaching of Scots history is required, asap.
301

Enigma,

21/01/2008 19:41:37
370

That was my point, `the British Government banned wearing of the kilt`.

You wrote `English Government`. If an Englishman wrote that he would quite rightly be taken to task.
302

MichScot,

USA 21/01/2008 19:49:59
Well, it's about time! Wish they'd do that here.

My children are history majors, and they had to make it to college to have anything to speak of in history. The local HS curriculum spends well over half the time after 1945 and it includes baseball, of all things! The classes they took in the university were slanted and weighted toward various minorities. My daughter went to Alma (US open for the pipes held there),a private college, and got a far less slanted view of things, but I guess the cool details I got in school--when they were not discussing battle tactics--are for far more advanced students these days.
303

Enigma,

21/01/2008 19:53:32
375

Where it is still based, the fact remains it is not and was not an `English Government`. The Hanoverians enjoyed widespread support in Scotland, more than did the Stuarts.
304

MichScot,

USA 21/01/2008 19:55:45
#341 Morris

You get 'em, Tiger!
I don't speak Gaelic, but am for it 100 per cent.
305

Officer Crabtree.,

Cafe Renee gay Paree 21/01/2008 20:08:57
http://www.freewebs.com/craaaaazi/fat%20woman.jpg

Zees kemba it was cot of gird by ze pepperhatsee?

All Eenglish are cupboards even got wuppped by Normans what a sed bunch.

Viva ze ald aleeance Scots are unconquered hairos brev und true.
306

An English Voice™,

"Nationalism is the measles of the human race." 21/01/2008 20:13:00
352. The Battle of Loudon Hill was Bruce, the Battle of Ayr was also Bruce and there was no 'Battle of Ardrossan Castle'.

Are you confusing a brief running contact (aka a skirmish) between a small number of troops. with a 'Battle' (a prolonged fight between large formations in pursuit of a defined objective) as in the Battles of Waterloo, Trafalgar, The Somme etc? I really don't think you can put Ardrossen Castle in the same category as those.

I genuinely didn't realise that Wallace only won one 'proper' battle. Bruce was a far more successful military commander in the fight against the English, so where is the hero-worship for him?
307

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 20:14:14
#348 DaveSubsea: Cool!! Do you think they would/could teach me it?
308

An English Voice™,

"Nationalism is the measles of the human race." 21/01/2008 20:14:31
381. [contd] This really is another excellent example why nationalists must never be allowed near the education of our children!
309

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 20:21:26
#350 Calum Crubag: Don't think anyone with an IQ below 50 could use a PC never mind the internet.

On Average folk have an IQ between 90-120, (I think that what the on-line IQ test said, any way it was something like that!)

If there people on this site with an IQ of 50 then there must also be people with an IQ of about 160 here as well to even up the balance.
Unless they go else where to talk!!!!
310

weh,

21/01/2008 20:21:52
The "history" problem is simply this. Since circa 1914 scotland did not exist-it simply part of GB. This was not challenged then as WW1 was on, and the enemy was external to GB.
After WW1 the Scots, who suffered(as a nation) more than any other race on the planet were too shell shocked to resist domination of all aspects of its culture by London. They emigrated in their droves-more than any other nation on the planet.

Result-Total domination by London of a nation totally drained of its resources.

EnterWW2-similar scenario.

Now, for the first time in a century, we are becoming prosperous enough to look further than getting a loaf for the table and we have found-WE ARE, INDEED, A NATION!

That, my friends, is where we have come from!

(dON'T LET IT SLIP AWAY THIS TIME!)
311

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 20:25:00
#383

"This really is another excellent example why nationalists must never be allowed near the education of our children!"

Ah so you're Scottish then?
312

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 20:25:41
#381 An English Voice™, An excellent example why English Voice™ must never be allowed near the education of our children!
313

Enigma,

21/01/2008 20:32:44
`After WW1 the Scots, who suffered( as a nation) more than any other race on the planet were too shell shocked to resist domination by London¬

Go for independence by all means but don`t over egg the omlette, you undermine your cause.
314

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 20:32:50
#387 OscarMacApfel: May be they have weans or gran weans who are Scottish and are finding it hard to deal with the fact that 73% of the folk born in Scotland see them self as Scottish, while only 3% see them self as Birittish.
315

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 20:37:30
#391 clarry: Was that (King) Robert the Bruce's brother!!!! I heard that Robert had a brother who was killed in Ireland!
316

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 20:44:39
#397 DaveSubsea: I hope so!!!! It would appear logical!

AND I do find it amusing when Wendy says "allow Scots to walk taller within the union" The statment has nae logic in it what so ever!!!!
317

Steve Evans,

Malta 21/01/2008 20:51:04
How many Scottish children know Flower of Scotland without the aid of a lyric sheet. pride should at least start from there in the countries history.
318

Shamus,

Glasgow 21/01/2008 21:02:42
Most of the clever Scots have left the country voluntarily. Mostly the lazy, layabouts and ponsing students left with a few exceptions. And if you talk to the exceptions they would leave given the chance. Fiona Hyslop is typical of the decline of Scotland. Nae joab Scotland is just around the corner.
319

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:06:28
#399 DaveSubsea: Thanks looks like a good site. Every clearly written!!
320

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:06:29
#399 DaveSubsea: Thanks looks like a good site. Every clearly written!!
321

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 21:07:56
357

Just for the record, during the last war ,the Germans spent years trying to decode messages ,which were sometimes sent in Code,but also to help disguise the fact that some were in fact a completely seperate language(Gaelic), spoken only by a handful of the population ,and the value of this was immeasurable.

A langugae does not cease to have value, simply because few can speak it, or are limited in imagination.It becomes more valuable!
No one is proposing replacing universally used English, and the truth is even our European partners France and Germany are perfectly happy to use English equally as are air traffic control universally, and many of Italian technical books are in fact American, and in USA version English, not to mention half the films available on their TV stations.It makes no difference whatsoever if our children can read and speak from their own nations culture,other than better some, and disadvantage no one.We can still learn French German Russian Portuguese etc and in Holland you will be hard pushed to find anybody who does not speak English!I know because I have friends there. Switzerland speaks French German Italian regionally and often all three plus English!

Inclusion of Gaelic cannot harm anyone !
322

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:09:59
Oops double posting!!!

This site is mad it won't post a post and then it post 2 at wance.
323

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 21:14:39
403

Nae job Scotland has been here ,under Labour, my entire life!
eg Ravenscraig Clydebank Linwood just to name a few .
When will the Scots understand that if Labour are the only party that has been elected in Scotland in living memory,its IMPOSSIBLE for it to be anybody elses fault,since there is nobody else!

A far bigger worry is NAE BRAINS SCOTLAND !
324

Himself,

Aberdeen 21/01/2008 21:16:22
Can we handle independence? Look at website "Edinburghsucks" & "martinfrost.ws"
Why does this paper claim Wilmut to be a Scot when he is an embarrassment to decent folk. Our history should be buried with the double dealing crooks from the time of Wallace to date
325

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 21:22:23
The most positive aspect of teaching Scottish history in Scottish schools is the teaching of the laws of human dynamics.

We are we. Therefore we must be. We did this and that. We did this right and we did that wrong but we are we and we will be.
326

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 21:25:49
Do you nationalists realise just how ridiculous you are making yourselves look with this obsession with events several centuries ago?

Do you think sensible and intelligent people read your posts about 700+ year old events and suddenly convert to the nationalist cause?

Does today's Scotland, or England or the UK as a whole, bear ANY resemblance to how things were in the the 1300's? Or the 1700's?

No, of course they don't!

This is the core problem with the independence campaign, and the reason why support for both the campaign and the SNP in general, is now starting to fall.

You have no reasonable argument to offer for independence. All you can do is wrap yourselves in the flag and appeal to people's hearts by portraying the English as destroyers of all things Scottish...even if you have to resort to partisan versions of ancient history to do so.

Unfortunately, people tend to think with their heads and not their hearts and the SNP's lack of a serious, pragmatic and RELEVANT case for independence is highly unlikely to win people over.

Anyway, I'm off to do something interesting. The SNP mob can now get back to ranting about events 700 years ago as a reason for Scotland to break from the UK.

My favourite quote again:
Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first. Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

'Nationalist', and not 'patriot', is truly the correct description for certain posters on here.

(27% and dropping? Oh dear!)
327

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 21:26:20
At least you can still post.
"The Weegie Herlad" will not allow any posting.They claim it was because of arguments/debates getting out of hand,and in no way political,so they closed down the political pages but left the news pages open (where political comments started to appear ,now theres a surprise)and have since closed those also!
Now they have closed down completely it would appear, but I expect normal servcice to resume ,just as soon as Wendy the Cartographer, has been exhonerated of being guilty,even though she admitted it, tried to change the origin of the donation,wrote a personal Thank You letter,and is responsible under a law her party introduced.But we dont want accusations of any wrong doing just because she is guilty do we ?
328

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 21:28:22
414

"Do you think sensible and intelligent people read your posts about 700+ year old events"

You do ,so I guess that means it is no then .
329

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 21/01/2008 21:29:22
English Voice tm, I told you that The loudon hill concerning Wallace was not the same one as the one that Bruce was at,(check it yourself), same with Ayr, there are more than a few places in Scotland that had one battle in or near it, re Battle, check the dictionary definition that I gave you earlier, i started this with Kimba who disapeared so there is no reason why I should just accept your definition.
330

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 21:31:14
410, Clarry. You appear to be contradicting yourself a tad.

If there had been relative peace between 1100 and 1286, with only the Scots invading England over south Cumbria, how do you account for your statement that the Normans had given Robert Bruce 1 lands in Scotland?
331

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:34:30
#412 ­­: What is yer name!!! (the wan thats been misplaced, I mean!!)
332

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 21:35:05
 ,419. No. But at least the debate would available at an early age and we would be more confident (imo).
333

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 21:35:49
424 took 3 attempts to post.
334

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:39:12
What is with this site, it appear to be frezzing in between refreshing!!

#410 clarry: Well he came good in the end!!

Just like am sure the majourity of Scots will when the time comes!!!
335

France,

Bromley 21/01/2008 21:39:51
I am interested in the area of postage stamps. They send a message to people all over the world about the country of posting as well as 'educating' children in the country of posting. In this regard the difficulty Scotland has is that becomes lost in the United Kingdom, most of which has no relevance to it. Imagine how life would be without a Scottish football team to support, well believe it or not, it is the same with postage stamps. It would be easy for Scotland to set up it's own Commemorative Stamp Programme. each issue could be rolled out as a schools programme, teaching Scottish children about their past, as well as wealth of the here-and-now topics that Scotland has reason to be proud of. It is easy, but don't ask Royal Mail, and certainly don't ask Westminster, JUST DO IT!!
336

Steve Evans,

Malta 21/01/2008 21:41:26
Any Welshmen reading these great postings should remember a certain date in Welsh History 23rd January 1879, Rorke's Drift and twelve Victoria Crosses. Sadly not many in Wales will recognise this date as history has moved on, and no doubt not taught in schools.
337

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:41:57
#414 An English Voice™,: 73% of the folk born in Scotland say they are Scottish compared with 3% who say they are Birittish.
338

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 21:43:14
418. Nationalist spin is no substitute for historical accuracy!

Two blokes having a punch-up in the street also fits your definition - but it certainly is not a 'battle', is it!
339

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:45:58
#425 Jock Tamson: Yer lucky I've had post that won't post at all. Try putting another sentence 1st worked for me.
340

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 21:46:12
432. How interesting and relevant.

What's your point?
341

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 21:47:59
Only someone like English Voice would argue about Scottish history all day and then accuse others of being obsess with events of 700 years ago.

Unionists like English Voice are very predictable in their control freakery, nothing must alter the status quo or they get nervous that the very thing they love most of all will disappear.

They even try and control the rules for posts.

English Voice went so far as to take over a ‘debate’ between Kimba and I today, for no better reason that I could see than kimba couldn’t answer a question and as such was in turn making English Voice look stupid because he was arguing from the same point of view.

This kind of control is routed in a feeling of inferiority; they need someone to control so as to project the right image, not only to the world at large but also to themselves.

He is not alone of course, this fear has been evident, for all who cared to look for it, in many of those who for years have been running our country, and the difference nowadays is that they now have reason for their fear.

First the empire next Scotland.!
342

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2008 21:48:01
429
ppink
I think it's just this particulary awful website to blame.
343

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 21:48:06
The Border Reivers were around from the 13th to the 17th century,so many of the "invasions" or "raids" by Scots during around 1250 onwards had little to do with national idenitity,and were simply the locals indulging in their chosen sport of nicking sheep!I wonder if these are what are referred to as invasions?

Armstrong and Elliot were noted for this,and I always have a wee chuckle when I see the butchers shop in Newcastlton (ELLIOT) which they boast was established hundreds of years go .I can believe it!

This is hardly the same as an invading army led by a claimant to the throne.The Armstrongs and Elliots laid claim only to other peoples livestock.
344

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 21:48:14
Anyone complaining about the website should try www,scotsman.com/gonatexpress

Remember the great promotion they ran last week.

All you get is an error message when you try to move on from the register page.

(just double-clicked and nothing happened) How much are they paying these clowns?
345

ochone,

Sauchie, Clacks 21/01/2008 21:52:47
English Voice, thank's for the proof, so we have to accept your definintion just because you say so, you related to am2 by any chance?

346

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:55:04
#433 An English Voice™: History accurate!!!!!

It's never a 100% accurate and sometime depends on whos telling the story (so to speack).

Well lets face it nothing is a 100% accurate!!!

BUT as accurate as someone can resite history, I'm sure that most Scottish history will come across positive and show what a grate nation we were before the union. Hey we have no been in the union even half the amount of the time that Scotland was an idependent nation for and thats an important thing for a young Scot to know.
347

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 21:55:07
430, France. Fear not. The area of a postage stamp is not much more than 1 cm². This can vary in size seasonally and commemoratively.
348

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 21:55:58
437. Thank you so very much for proving the point I made in 414!

You have nothing but accusations, insults and baseless rhetoric to offer. Nothing.

This is why you have always been, and will always be, a marginalised minority.
349

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 21:56:22
#436 An English Voice™: YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!
Have a geuss!!!!
350

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 21:57:43
430

Of course postage stamps are Scottish.

An Arbroath man called James Chalmers who was a weaver in Dundee,suggested the postage stamp in 1834 and then to parliament in 1839 and the Penny Post was saved from collapse in 1840 thanks to his foresight .He was kinighted I believe.
We should definitely put him on our first issue!
351

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2008 21:57:55
English Voice,it's not necessarily the amount of troops involved in a battle,but the political outcome of it.The Somme was certainly a huge battle,but it was just one of many bloody standoffs in the Great War.
352

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 22:01:07
443, Clarry. Peace, yes. But you still do not explain how Edward 1 came about the lands in Scotland he gave to Robert Bruce !. Did he buy them? Was he up on holiday?

353

An English Voice™,

21/01/2008 22:05:19
448. I've suddenly been reminded of a character in 'Goodness Gracious Me' who claims everyone famous is really Indian and every major invention was really made in India.

I really don't know where that came from...
354

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 21/01/2008 22:05:58
Oh, good! does that also mean that our country in all those i.t. sites, will read Scotland, not the YUK, oops sorry I think that should be the uk. ( or is it england?)Does it also mean that all those Scottish inventions from the past, which play such big parts of to-days daily life, will revert to being Scottish inventions?
I remember reading a school book from an english grammar school, entitled twelve englishmen and their inventions, seven were Scots!It would be good to get them back again!
355

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 22:08:46
432

What defines a nation ? Most would agree that only the people inside that nation can decide what they are.
What defines whether one belongs to a paricular nation ?Again the people must decide what nationality they are.
The only qualification I can accept to being Scottish is DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE SO? If the answer is yes then YOU ARE!

If 73% say they feel Scottish,then not only should Scotland be independent,she inevitably will be !

See you at the party Eve !
356

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 22:08:47
432

What defines a nation ? Most would agree that only the people inside that nation can decide what they are.
What defines whether one belongs to a paricular nation ?Again the people must decide what nationality they are.
The only qualification I can accept to being Scottish is DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE SO? If the answer is yes then YOU ARE!

If 73% say they feel Scottish,then not only should Scotland be independent,she inevitably will be !

See you at the party Eve !
357

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 22:09:48
English voice, you've done it again, supplied the proof I mean and not just now, you were the first person to (deliberatly?) vear off topic today at post 80, for some reason you couldn't handle the fact that others both Nat's and unionists were saying basicly that they had no problem with this idea, you had to comment, but as you knew you couldn't control what was under discussion you changed it.

See control.

I mean why should it bother you what a seperate Scottish educational system does, unless of course it reavels the truth which in turn might bring about change.

To people like you change is dangerous.

You'll find that when it comes to something like this I am not in a minority, but then even if i were I am still entitled to my opinion, it being every bit as valid as yours.

A great thing democracy, you should give it a try, but first you should perhaps look up the definition in a dictionary!

But thanks for the laughs.
358

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 22:12:31
#448 morris: Thats intersting, the only history of an object we got in School was about it's useage in Africa of all place, to this day I'm still puzzled by my history leasons at hight School.

History in school appeared to over lap a lot with morden studies, we spend a leason or two on what Martin Luther King stood for. When it appear to belong in history. And in some ocasions over laped with georgraphy.

History is complexed and is constendly happening (or writting it's self)!!!

What I find amasing is that in Sosiolgy there appears to be no Scots who are looked up to in this subject area. More amasingly most of the people who are mention as haveing some signifacnce are dead so this must be part of history also.
359

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 21/01/2008 22:12:39
Liverpool and Villa finished now.
The headline reads:
'Pledge to reclaim Scottish history for our children'
The initial posts were, for the most part reasoned and valid. The thread started to degenerate at #100ish, and, with obvious exceptions, have been at a pretty low level since. This raises two, maybe more, interesting questions:
1. If many of the comments are indicative of a surplus of single celled creatures in our society, then could it be that teaching history, or any other subject for that matter, in our schools is a complete waste of time, and resources?
2. On the other hand, will the reintroduction of Scottish History in a fair and balanced way into schools actually help put to bed many of the prejudices witnessed here?
360

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2008 22:12:54
457
Evening Ochone,good thread eh?
361

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 22:14:56
#453 Enster Buddy: Aye and then some!!!
362

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 22:16:17
452

Conisidering that the article is about teaching history,I thought maybe some history should also be included.
363

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 22:18:03
#453 Enster Buddy: Where any of them really Welsh!!!
364

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 22:19:11
Conan, aye when it works, by the way am i the only one that gets their paper from the Scotsman at 5:30PM?
365

Winters,

Glasgow 21/01/2008 22:22:09
I've always wondered what would Scotland be like if Mary Queen of Scots' husband, the Dauphin of France had lived on. Also, how did William Wallace execute his enemies. Would these questions be allowed in the proposed curriculum.
366

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 22:23:51
464

If you save this page to favourites you can log on anytime and you should get an up to date access to stories which are still enroute in your email.Hence the postings at midnight and you join later, when hundreds have beaten you to it as it were.It works here anyway (well it did but who knows lately)!
367

not-Hamish,

fife 21/01/2008 22:25:30
406
So we'll keep wasting millions on Garlic in case there's another world war - surprising the germans were so easily fooled! Think you'll find that many foreign businessmen resent having to use english becos we're too lazy to learn their language when we're dealing with them. The use of Garlic is pointless in any circs. Weird logic that it becomes more 'valuable' if no-one is interested in it!
368

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/01/2008 22:28:05
Winters, why not, no one wants SNP approved history lessons.

It was likely pretty barbaric.

speaking of barbaric endings playmates, I am leaving now as my dear wife has asked (I use the word advisedly) to use the computer and whilst I will argue with the likes of English voice and other unionists, I know when I am beat, so to avoid my own barbaric end.

Good night all.
369

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 22:31:34
454, Clarry. The Norman way of doing things was for the eldest son to inherit the family seat and the other sons to set furth in search of their own lands. They would have had to have done this by conquest or marraige.

Given that Bruce Castle is in White Hart Lane between Wood Green and Tottenham, London, how long do you think it would have taken the Norman dynasty to reach Scotland? And why is there no recorded history of fighting between the Normans and the Scots which shows that the Bruce's lands were taken by conquest? Annandale, I seem to remember.
370

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2008 22:33:07
465
I assume its the baldric made from Hugh de Cressingham you are thinking about,and was he alive when it was made?
371

Eve,

Scotlanbd 21/01/2008 22:35:35
#467 not-Hamish: You remind me of poster from the past (can't quite remeber the name) BUT they more or less claimed that if they found something borring then most people did. Smilare to you are the now. It was also Gaelic programmes.

I know fine well yer in the minority when you say these thing cause, I rember when I was at High school it was considered cool to watch Patric Post and Dotiman. (Amasing this trend lasted from S1-S6) It didn't matter that we did understand everything that was said, or the fact we only new what they were on about because of the visals.

372

Eve,

Scotland 21/01/2008 22:39:19
Night all, I'm sleep and needing ................

Good night, sweet dreams. May tomorrow be a bricht day!!!
373

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 22:42:34
454, Clarry. The Norman way of doing things was for the eldest son to inherit the family seat and the other sons to set furth in search of their own lands. They would have had to have done this by conquest or marraige.

Given that Bruce Castle is in White Hart Lane between Wood Green and Tottenham, London, how long do you think it would have taken the Norman dynasty to reach Scotland? And why is there no recorded history of fighting between the Normans and the Scots which shows that the Bruce's lands were taken by conquest? Annandale, I seem to remember.
374

HMFC,

21/01/2008 22:46:32
This will help eh?

Tell the neds about Robert the Bruce.

Fantastic - Job done. All our woes fixed.

375

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 22:54:00
474, HMFC, should we not be taught about Robert the Bruce? Should we teach the history of HMFC instead?
376

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 21/01/2008 23:00:36
463 Yes two were!
377

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 23:08:47
467

I said it can increase in value if less people understand it, and gave an example from recent history which proves my point. Fife does not speak English only!
What difference could it possibly make to you anyway?If you dont want to learn it fair enough,but I fail to see how that entitles you to be disprespectful to that language.

How many languages are you fluent in, just for the record ?

At no time did I suggest that no one was interested in it,and you have schools in Glasgow teaching it again,so clearly there is interest in the language and culture and its the choice of the individual to make whether he or she participates.
378

buidhe,

Domhnall Eachainn 21/01/2008 23:11:03
How can one define what a nation is without knowing what the word means in English.
What is the difference between a people and a nation? Are they one and the same?
379

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2008 23:11:30
477
Clarry
His son was Edward II,the guy who was defeated at Bannockburn.
He died in a horrific way,murdered by his nobles who disapproved of his lifestyle.
A horn was jammed in a rather painful place to protect the flesh from the red hot poker thrust through it right up into his abdomen.Therefore he died without a mark of violence on him.
380

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 23:12:47
But Clarry, you said there was peace between 1100 and 1286 unless the Scots were invading England.
381

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne 21/01/2008 23:16:30
H'mmm well they can talk to Doomsday about battles won and lost but will they have the honesty to tell of the degradation imposed on good working people, of urban poverty and misery of tubercular disease rampant throughout the community, of starving adults and rickety children, of public executions as late as the 19th century in Glasgow Green for what... FREE SPEECH. That was sedition against the monarchy! [read chinless wonders]
Only those with living memory remember the 1919 Battle of George Square, also known as Bloody Friday and Black Friday, was one of the worst riots on the streets of Glasgow, Scotland, which took place on Friday, 31 January 1919. The dispute revolved around a campaign for shorter working hours, backed by widespread strike action. Clashes between police and protesters broke out, and led to the Government sending soldiers to the city to prevent any further gatherings due to their fear of a left-wing workers revolution, described as a 'Bolshevist uprising' by the then Secretary of State for Scotland, as had happened the previous year in the 1917 Russian Revolution and was occurring in Germany whilst the 'Forty Hours' strike unfolded. Scottish troops were confined to barracks and not too hard to work out why!
Lenin wrote in his pre-revolution writings that he fully expected the European revolution to start where?
Indeed in Scotland!!!
Then who was ever taught about the Weaver Rebellion in Scotland, damn few for sure.
I would not deny past historical achievements but there is all too much recent history of Auld Scotia that should make us hang our head in shame.

382

buidhe,

Domhnall Eachainn 21/01/2008 23:20:14
Why is the Gaelic word Bard used in English for a poet. Is it not time another more appropriate word was found in English?
383

Murray in Canada,

Salt Spring Island 21/01/2008 23:22:48
75 Lachie: FFS and for the love of God please use an exclamation mark and not a query!!??? It makes your comments, however well put, quite ridiculous. Or do you intend to call your statements into question??!!
384

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/01/2008 23:25:36
485. There was a Purlie in my class at school who once grabbed a teacher and said, "If you were't such an old man I'd hit you".

Are you that Purlie?
385

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/01/2008 23:30:21
Of course HISTORY will record that tonight on Newsnicht, Jackie the Hutt decreed that Paul Green's donation to the WENDY campaign, wasn't illegal...it was merely 'impermissible'.
386

Em,

21/01/2008 23:38:38
#465 Winters

Wallace used numerous means to slay his enemies, usually with his sword he would behead them or slice through armour and sometimes when Wallace and his men were hiding out in the forest they would use their longbows to attack the english soldiers who were pursuing them, however, regardless of what means were employed it was usually a swift excecution.

One fact about Wallace many people surprisingly don't know is that he had previously been captured by English soldiers while at Ayr market, the soldiers were about to excecute him there and then when their commanding officer told them to halt preferring to see Wallace taken prisoner to die a drawn out unpleasant death from starvation in their dungeon, after weeks in the dungeon affected with dysentery fever and suffering from infected open wounds the jailers complained of the foul odour coming from his cell and decided to fetch him for excecution but on entering his cell they found that he was already dead.
They decided to hurl his body over the castle wall into the rubbish tip.

A woman who had been Wallace's nurse from infancy came to beg for Wallace's body so that she may give him a proper burial, she took the body with help from others back to her house. It was while she was washing him in preparation for burial that she became aware of the faint flutter of his heartbeat and he eventually opened his eyes. Wallace stayed there while he was nursed back to health.
387

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 23:43:01
482

They presumably are not always the same,but in a democracy, presumably where people declare identity with a nation,then either that nation already exists, or shall exist ,since apart from being their declared preference ,it is now enforceable under United Nations agreements.That is what will happen should a majority declare their wish for independence in an unambiguous manner, which means a referendum.What Westminster thinks is even less important than what she says.
The right to self determination by a former self governing nation ,is one claim recognised without question.Scotland is one of the oldest nations in existence today.

You cannot dispute International Law,United nations was created after the last war for this (and others) very purpose.ie To give a ruling where a dispute might otherwise exist over a claim of sovereignty.

The United Kingdom ,whilst treated as a nation for all intents and purposes is in fact a multi-national state which comprises of nations England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland. I presume that Wales Northern Ireland and England could also secede from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but the Irish position is one I am less certain about, since she was part of a seperate nation called Eire,but her position as a seperate nation is more complicated presumably.
388

HEN BROON 5,

21/01/2008 23:43:59
452 An English Voice™,21/01/2008 22:05:19
448. "I've suddenly been reminded of a character in 'Goodness Gracious Me' who claims everyone famous is really Indian and every major invention was really made in India.

I really don't know where that came from..."



























Really? Well please allow me to offer some assistance on the matter.

I really don't know where that came from..."PROBABLY YOUR ANAL ORIFICE WHERE THE REST OF THE SH!T YOU INFECT THESE FORUMS WITH COMES FROM.


ALBA GU BRATH.
389

morris,

edinburgh 21/01/2008 23:45:50
489

She will probably get a pat on the back for that piece of genius!

She might get a kick out on her plentiful landing area of course at the next Scottish election.
I must watch NEWSNIGHT tomorrow on line !
390

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 22/01/2008 00:07:43
#403 Morris it was a thing of beauty to watch. You see they only solicited small donations, because they didn't want to be seen as the pawns of a wealthy evil former bus driver and accept half a million quid...So really it's not the WENDYs fault it's the SNP's. Genius.

Remember not 'illegal' but 'impermissible'!
391

morris,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 00:18:08
488

Im sure you already know of course,but perhaps it might be worth mentioning for others benefit, that James "Purlie" Wilson made improvements to the weaving machines and how they could operate seemlessly,using a modified purl stitch ,(or something like that)although he is sometimes credited with having invented this stitch,it is in fact incorrect,the stich having been used for many years prior to this.HE was one of the Strathaven radicals who opposed the Corn Laws and marched on Glasgow to protest if I recall accurately and was subsequently arrested and put to death.
The episode is often referred to as the Weavers Uprising,but it was never taught in any school in Scotland that I recall. There was a similar event in Tranent not so many years ago which also is NOT included in any history taught in Scotland.
392

Drum Major,

Australia 22/01/2008 00:20:36
Boy hasn't this subject brought some posts. I was taught British history which I always found interesting until we got to the industrial revolution. This was probably the subject teacher in that grade and the actual classroom facilities. Scottish history was only lightly touched on and I learned as much from my Dandy, Beano, Our Wullie & the Broons. I have since taught myself Scottish history and am still learning. I am often amazed by Scots who know very little of their own history. In Australia a big part of the interest in history was lost with decimal currency. Now all coins only have the Queens head on them when previously coins had many previous monarchs. Todays kids and many of their parents do not even know who the Queen Mothers husband was. How will they have any understanding of history. There must be a concentrated effort to give a balanced education that shows where we came from. In Australia republicans have tried (and many times successfully) to rewrite history. England as a wealthy powerful nation has bullied neighbouring nations. In turn those nations have given England a bl00dy nose on different occassions. None are saints. History must be taught warts and all to be of use to shape the future. As is often said "those who do not learn frm history are condemned to repeat it again.

Kimba there are forefathers or in your case four fathers did your mother tell you about them all.
393

Dunnie,

Canada 22/01/2008 00:56:54
492 - Hen Broon - plural for forum is fora.

496 Drum Major - well said. For instance, take the film Gallipoli. Wonderfully filmed and directed except for the cheap Brit bashing that occurs at the end.

The final scene where the 12th Light Horse are decimated in suicidal charges are made to look like they the result of stupid and insensitve Brit commanders.

Truth is that the attack was agreed to and supported by Aussie commanders; the f**kup with the artillery was the fault of the Aussie Arty Officers and the refusal to cancel the attacks after the failure of the first wave was the decision of the Ausssie Brigade Major.

All this to say, you Aussies have been just as guilty of bloodying Pommie noses for the sake of political expediency.

By the way, one of your venerable officers at Gallipoli - Blamey - was the same chap who cut and ran at Singapore leaving his troops behind and got out on one of the last ships to leave. He also found oh so easy to blame the Poms.



394

,

22/01/2008 01:26:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
395

Dunnie,

Canada 22/01/2008 01:45:38
MacAlba -

Your understanding of military history - at least the North African campaign is seriously deficient - to a point that is absolutely frightening.

There were no Canadian troops deployed in the North African campaign. At the time of Tobruk, there were no American troops in North Africa. Their first engagement was in the disastrous battle of Kasserine Pass - long after the fall of Tobruk.

As to English soldiers dropping their rifles and running - well, that might have happened - but I would wager you a year's supply of beer that such an incident has happened in every army in every major