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Published Date: 30 April 2008
BEIJING marks the 100-day countdown to the Olympic Games today with songs and even prayers, hoping to put behind it the tumultuous events of the past month which have taken much gloss off its preparations.
Unlike the run-ups to previous Olympics, Beijing's preparations for August have kept to plan, and some stadiums and infrastructure have even been completed ahead of schedule. All is now ready to go.

In all, the city has spent some £17.5 billion o
n improved infrastructure, including a new airport terminal and subway lines, as well as £1.05 billion to cover the cost of running the Games.

But the smooth preparations have been overshadowed by the torch relay's troubled journey, with protesters targeting China's human rights record, in particular its policy on Tibet.

One of the highlights of today's events will be a run around the Olympic Green by 10,000 Beijing residents, part of China's promise to make the Games a "People's Olympics".

There will also be songs celebrating the Games, and in officially atheist China, Catholic churches will hold masses to pray "for a successful Games".

Beijing will be desperate to prevent a repeat of the one-year countdown mark, when Free Tibet activists scaled the Great Wall, smog smothered the capital and torrential rain brought parts of the city to a standstill.

Security in Beijing has been noticeably stepped up in recent weeks following anti-Chinese protests in Tibet and during the torch relay, and China's claim that it has broken up terrorist plots to attack the Games.

Beijing's promise to ensure complete media freedom has also been called into question, especially following Chinese criticism of foreign reporters for perceived bias in their coverage of the protests in Tibet in March. The BBC and CNN were particular targets.

"If allowed to continue, the reporting interference and hate campaigns targeting international media may poison the pre-Games atmosphere for foreign journalists," said Melinda Liu, the president of the Foreign Correspondents Club of China.

China has also lashed out at human rights groups and some European and US politicians who have, in China's words, tried to politicise the Games, and raised the prospect of an Olympic boycott in light of the crackdown on protests in Tibet.

Earlier this week, 100 Chinese athletes and 2,000 Olympic volunteers made a public pledge to keep the event "pure" and uncorrupted by politics.

"We hope that the Olympics puts politics aside and returns to the true characteristics of sport," the gold medal gymnast Li Ning was quoted as saying.

THE TORCH

DISRUPTION of the Olympic torch relay, especially in London, Paris and San Francisco, and criticism of China's human rights policy in Tibet and elsewhere have angered many Chinese, who have dug in their heels.

Those in the West, with little knowledge of Tibet or Chinese history, have decided China is plain wrong. But many in China, proud of efforts to bring prosperity to Tibet and end centuries of serfdom, have decided that western media are biased and, in some cases, malicious.

On Tuesday, the overseas edition of the People's Daily, a Communist Party mouthpiece, rounded on western media, saying that only Chinese people could properly understand the situation.

"We are closer to the facts and we say that Chinese media's reporting is more objective than the western media," the newspaper said in a front page commentary.

Comments by the CNN presenter Jack Cafferty referring to Chinese as "goons and thugs" added insult to injury, triggering protests across the world, including the launch of an anti-CNN.com website.

"We want to let our voices be heard," the official Xinhua news agency quoted Wu Peng, who works for a financial firm in Atlanta, as saying at an anti-CNN protest. "We Chinese people are standing up to oppose anyone who wants to slander China with such racial remarks."

INTERNAL DISSENT

A FEW weeks ago in Beijing, the International Olympic Committee president, Jacques Rogge, said that outwith venues "there is absolutely no problem for an athlete to express his or her views".

He spoke just days after a dissident called Hu Jia was sent to prison for inciting "to subvert state power". The charges were not linked to the Olympics, but he had been critical of the Games and published an essay called The Real China and the Olympics.

It may well be that foreign athletes can express their views, but it's a different story for the Chinese.

Yesterday, Human Rights Watch released a report detailing the pressure Chinese lawyers come under.

The report said a group of lawyers who offered to defend Tibetans involved in riots that rocked Tibet's capital Lhasa last month were warned that doing so would jeopardise the renewal of their licences.

POLLUTION

WHEN the western media were allowed into China's showcase "Bird's Nest" stadium in Beijing earlier this month, many praised its breathtaking design and sense of scale.

They also observed that the giant structure could scarcely be seen from half a mile away because of the smog.

Bad air quality in Beijing is a risk to the health of competitors in endurance events like the marathon, the International Olympic Committee has said. Jacques Rogge, the IOC chief, has said some endurance races could be postponed due to pollution.

China says it has spent about £10 billion in the past decade cleaning up Beijing's air.

China had pledged that by 2008, measurements of carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide and sulphur dioxide would meet World Health Organisation standards. But the IOC said last month that Beijing had so far met only WHO's 2005 guidelines.

TALLEST TASK

CHINA has yet to deal with one of its trickiest Olympic stunts – taking the torch up Mount Everest.

Separate from the round-the-world relay, the Everest route would be tough enough without the threat of disruption from protestors.

All that was heard by journalists at Base Camp yesterday was the official mantra – "the torch will go up Mount Qomolangma (Everest) on a day in May when the weather conditions are most suitable".

Off the record, several of the large band of minders and interpreters accompanying the media admitted that there was an official silence because of security concerns.

A Japanese journalist who attempted to walk towards Base Camp proper yesterday afternoon was turned back by an armed security official.

No other expeditions have been allowed on the northern, Tibetan, side until the torch has reached the top of Everest. Climbers on the southern, Nepali, side have had most of their communication equipment removed and will not be able to go for the summit until mid-May, say various climbing websites.





The full article contains 1109 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 April 2008 10:46 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: 2008 Olympics
 
1

Mashimaro,

China 30/04/2008 09:00:02
Catholic churches? Wot? *Dials up the religious persecution team*...

Now, I would hardly call the western media "biased". Downright liars would be a better term.
And if Cafferty had made that remark about Jews or Blacks do you really imagine he would still have a job? I think not.
2

postmark54,

Chongqing, China 30/04/2008 09:38:49
Don't even get me started on the Catholic church. Look at their record when it comes to human rights and religious persecution, never mind all the child molestation cases.

Like the article mentions, "we are closer to the facts" but the west keeps on believing the blatant lies being told to them by their lying governments and media, all in the name of oppressing Communism, and by trying to bring down all of China.

If any of you would bother spending some money and time to come and visit China, you would clearly see how your governments and media have blatantly lied to you all of your lives. China is a great country, with a thriving econmy, and with its people living harmoniously and have little to complain about.
The west and its lies are uniting the Chinese to stand up to the west and defend our great country. Paris in particular tried to shame us and they will start to pay a price for that, especially with their Carrefour chain stores feeling the brunt of the Chinese shopper's anger. Reap what you sow.
3

Mashimaro,

China 30/04/2008 10:16:22
Hi Postmark. I went in to Carrefour the other day and all their staff are wearing these red clothes with logos saying they support the Olympics. Wierd
4

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 10:30:15
Lies..."People living harmoniously and have little to complain about"...

You have some nerve typing that...it is enough to provoke hysterical laughter in someone catatonic...

Neither of you speak for the Chinese people....you speak for the machine...

All those billions eh Mushymarrow....all those billions and the suffering it has caused the poor, the farmers, the displaced...

I do not know in which context the "Thugs and goons" comment was applied...but certainly those guys guarding the torch were "thugs and goons".........I am assuming you do know what a "goon" is and who it can be applied to eh?

"Run round the green by 10.000 Beijing residents"....aye..I can just see it...sign your name on the dotted line and if you dont turn up for your wee jog...........

Skidmark....China relies heavily on France buying its crap clothing....a huge amount of France's crap clothing is made in China...from Monoprix to designer...crap clothing....made in China......

Reap what you sow?...correct...and China could be cutting off its nose..to spite its face....
5

James Donald,

Newbridge 30/04/2008 10:39:25
Amazing what the workers' paradise can do; with a per capita GDP that is remarkably low for the second largest economy in the World, it can afford to spend money like a drunken sailor as far as the Olympics is concerned.
Yet the Chinese live harmoniously and have little to complain about. But we can't all go to live in the workers' paradise as it is already over-populated, polluted, has an energy defecit, a crap transport system, no democracy, a human rights record that would make Stalin blush and, if reports are to be believed, is now full of xenophobic, anti-Western nutters determined to boycot the western consumer goods.
Don't know about anyone else, but I think I will stay in good old Europa with all its faults.
6

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 30/04/2008 10:40:12
#3 Mashimaro,
I haven't set foot in a Carrefour store since a couple of days before a lady was murdered by her husband there about two or three weeks ago. I haven't got anything against them personally, they do after all employ many people, our own people, so it is sad that they will end up losing their jobs over an extended boycott. I never have condoned boycotts, the intended targets are usually rich, and the innocent people suffer. Boycotts, in my opinion, are just childish behaviours and hurt all the wrong people.
I can see the Carrefour staff showing support for the Olympics, after all, their national pride is shining through, and they had no say in what the store owners did about the Tibet situation. I hope that as of tomorrow, cooler heads prevail and we can let bygones be bygones. We need to keep our national pride intact and not let the west separate us by their foolish behaviour, we need to show the west that we are civilized. The west also needs to realize that Tibet is legally ours and that Tibet is indeed one of our provinces, and that the majority, a huge majority, is proud to be part of China. Tibet has seen great improvements, especially the last two decades, all because it's part of China, and the Chinese have helped Tibet become a success story. The Tibetans definitely are not complaining, no reason for them to complain.
7

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 10:43:57
http://www.newstatesman.com/200707310004

Interesting comments on this one..
8

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 10:48:32
http://ledux.blogspot.com/2006/10/chinese-soldiers-shoot-tibetan.html

Tibetan pilgrims being shot dead by chinese soldiers....
9

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 30/04/2008 11:10:03
Armchair critics who can't even find China on the map, let alone know how good life really is here.

Tough to take the uneducated and narrow minded commentators seriously, only we, the ones living here, know and love the great China, and are proud to call it our home. Best country in the world, by far. Pay us a visit and see how good life really is over here, you'll all be pleasantly surprised.

We don't comment on Scotland, for we don't live there, and therefore don't know what life there is all about, so please don't comment on our great country, you have no idea how good it is.

For once, just open your minds, and don't believe all the western lies, is that too much to ask for?
10

Mashimaro,

China 30/04/2008 11:12:02
I think there will be a big backlash tomorrow and then it will die down. I am not sure that it will be peaceful though. There are always elements that get over emotional and I hope the government is well prepared to deal with any spill over.
That Seoul was so peaceful is a good indication of how Chinese crowds can behave.
What I cannot understand about Tibet is the western idea of returning the reich to power. I mean, putting a marmot in charge would be better.
It's amazing that everyone is shouting about democracy and then insists that the superstitous old feudal lord be reinstated. What's with that?
11

,

30/04/2008 11:17:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Landman,

30/04/2008 12:10:58
#4 Horrible CyberDyke

The real thugs were the idiots trying to disrupt runers carrying the torch and the "troll" aka you that goes around leaving the same obscene comments under fake ID's about whangs.
13

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 30/04/2008 12:13:22
#10 Mashimaro,
Please don't ever forget that the western media and governments have lied to its citizens about the Communists and Communism.
Take a look at James Donald for instance, who proudly proclaims that "the only good Communist is a dead Communist", and he can't even come up with a good reason for his hatred. People like him have been spoon fed this anti Communist crap ever since they were born, and actually can't open their mind to alternatives. It doesn't matter how much Tibet has improved, and is improving as we speak, the fact that China is flying the Communist flag is the only excuse they need to knock everything that China does.
They also realize not being able to vote is indeed a blessing, for when given the chance to vote, you get disappointed every time the election is over. Either your choice didn't make it in or choice is just another crook or criminal. I won't comment on who is running Scotland and the UK, but a quick browse through the comment section concerning their politics and politicians will give you an idea as to what I'm talking about. So again, why is the right to vote so important?, it's not, it's just another way to make the people think that their government is so kind to let them vote. Voting is a waste of time and money, look at the price and time of any election campaign, but it is justified by the people who honestly can't see that they're having the wool pulled over their eyes yet again. We don't get to vote and don't have to waste our time and money on something that doesn't change a thing.
14

,

30/04/2008 12:21:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 30/04/2008 12:25:00
#12 Landman,
I whole heartedly agree with you on everything you said.
The real topic doesn't matter, that is just a way to get a foot in the door and start hijacking the whole comment section. Shame on the Scotsman for allowing all that filth. Just wondering if the Scotsman hates Communism and Communists by allowing that incredible filth, just wondering. Let's hope that they don't, and will ban the likes of the filthy comments we have witnessed far too many times.
The topic at hand is always interupted and soon not even mentioned any more, what a shame.
It could be said that those responsible for the filth and foul mouthed comments are also 'thugs and goons'.
16

Biker,

Ayr 30/04/2008 12:25:54
Cankers. Thanks for the link, and very enlightening it was too.
Mashimaro. Any comment?
Postcrap. Any common sense?
17

Biker,

Ayr 30/04/2008 12:28:07
Landmark. So you consider that demonstation makes you a thug eh? Dont be stupid. How can the integrity of the Olympic Torch be held up when most of the carriers were 2nd rate celebrities? Its a farce.
18

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 30/04/2008 12:37:33
#17 Biker,
You must really be concerned about human beings and human rights when you classify people as second rate, to me all people are the same, no need to put them in different classifications, that's the ultimate of hypocracy. Once again your true colours are brightly shining and showing for all to see.
So exactly what makes a first class celebrity?, and why aren't we all celebrities? Where does it all end eh?
19

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 12:47:13
16...Hi Biker...I was truly appalled watching this video....the desperation in those people is tangible...and to imprison them for complaining!!!!...in their 'black prisons'....beat them up, abuse and torture them!!!....

Bulldozing their homes and they are living like rats on the streets....that poor woman with her dead husband that they would not allow her to bury...

What kind of government can allow this to happen?...what kind of government cannot control its own employees and allows them to brutalise the poor, the less well off and the desperate???

Truly sickening..

BOYCOTT THE OLYMPICS!!

20

James Donald,

Newbridge 30/04/2008 12:49:52
The corpses of millions and the oppression of countless others is reason enough to despise Communism and Communists but nobody is beyond redemption and Communists can easily becaome ex-Communists when they see the error (or rather evil) of their ways as many have done.
The thinking that brings the wisdom of "Voting is a waste of time and money" is an insult to the memory of the many who have died for the right to "waste time and money" on the frivolity of democracy. The Chinese don't have to vote and any that suggest that they might like to have an alternative to the Comunist Party are likely to find themselves either dead, in prison or looking down the barrel of a T-54.
21

James Donald,

Newbridge 30/04/2008 13:02:14
From the Guardian:

"100 days until the Olympics - but one family awaits only bulldozers and eviction"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/30/china.olympicgames2008
22

Mashimaro,

China 30/04/2008 14:01:28
Biker - comment on what?
23

Stonefield,

30/04/2008 14:31:55
Trolls like Horrible Cankers are far worse than communists. I find it very funny an extreme socialist like he troll Horrible Cankers is not in bed with communism, they are very similar.
24

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 15:20:10
> "We hope that the Olympics puts politics aside and returns to the true characteristics of sport," the gold medal gymnast Li Ning was quoted as saying. <

There are many who hope that politics will not be put aside, and that there will be such a chorus of disgust and execration from the media that the Chinese regime will crumble and then fall, allowing freedom to come both to Tibet and to China itself.
25

Mashimaro,

China 30/04/2008 16:47:49
#24 Or it could explode, millions of people die, and the bamboo curtaiin drawn again.
26

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 17:06:18
#25, yes, it's a terrible place and its government can't be trusted not to kill millions. That's why it's our duty to keep protesting, and to keep exposing the horrors there.
27

Stefan,

NYC 30/04/2008 19:43:59
Is China really even communist anymore? Isn't it as much a capitalist society as the west? Let's see... A blistering pace of export and import, a huge entrepreneurial class, growing middle class, growing upper class, an increasingly business driven govt. If I were Tibeten, I'd be applying for full statehood. I'll be applauding their heavy handed policing of the games if they prevent violence in the name of 'freedom'. I don't like everything they do; Sudan, ZimBOBwe, crappy export items. But their finding a national identity and will invariably have SNAFU's while pursuing their agenda. Besides, when the combination of one child, one family and sonogram technology render a country with negative population growth... well, we'll all get along fine won't we?

As for Mashi and company's ultra paranoid, everyone hates China stance... That speaks more of their disgust for others than the inverse. I like China. They're great for business. Business pays people. People who are paid help other people. I am people.
28

,

30/04/2008 19:50:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 20:40:07
28...Nah...nae offence but yer awrite pal...ahd rather be kicked oot o' a plane naked ower China...wae nowt but a tatoo o' the Dalai Lama oan wan cheek and "BOYCOTT THE OLYMPICS" oan the ither....

.....thanks aw the same....
30

Stefan,

NYC 30/04/2008 20:50:29
#29. I wasn't going to drink tonight, but I don't know how else to scrub that from my brain.
31

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

30/04/2008 21:57:58
30...Bottoms up mate!...cheers!
32

,

30/04/2008 22:47:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

oder,

Scotland 30/04/2008 23:20:02
25 Mashimaro,China 30/04/2008 16:47:49
Or it could explode, millions of people die, and the bamboo curtaiin drawn again.


cant disagree with you on that point, the Beijing government are the only ones with the experience of killing in the millions! probably be easier second time round.
34

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 01:25:49
#33 Oder you're full of carp, seriously. China has not killeld millions, that is complete and utter nonsense. Millions of people died during natural disasters and famine from midguided policies during Mao's rule. That is all.
If you want to know who is killing millions, kindly tote up those killed by US invasions since the 1950s, thank you.

#26 So in other words you believe that millions of people SHOULD suffer for your imperialistic ideals. And you call US inhumane. You want to impose western ideals on an Asian country? F*ck off. China is not a British colony anymore. Your hysterical and lying tactics will not make China crumble. It's been around for 5,000 years. We will do things in our own time.
What you might do is cause any freedoms we do have in China to be pulled back. So you have two choices. Shut the fcuk up and let Hu Jintao do his work and carry on the reforms, or undermine him and let the radical conservatives have their way.
35

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 01:53:30
#27 "As for Mashi and company's ultra paranoid, everyone hates China stance... That speaks more of their disgust for others than the inverse. I like China. They're great for business. Business pays people. People who are paid help other people. I am people."

I know there are westerners out there who are quite okay with China, who can see the sense in what China is doing. I am not paranoid. I am outraged at the lies by the western press regarding what happened in Tibet. It was shocking. As a journalist we are always told that the western press is free and fair and the example we should follow. Well, it's not. It lies to you, blatantly and frequently. I realise that means that you do not always have a clear and unbiased view of what is going on in China, and you react accordingly.
Then there is the question of taking anything that the Dalai Lama says as fact or as even informed opinion when he is nothing more than a CIA mouthpiece, determined to wrench Tibet from China and destroy China - for that is what will happen.
The Dalai Lama is nothing more than a lying, Nazi inspired charlatan who owned serfs and slaves. He is not a democrat. He is not an elected leader and he does not speak for all Tibetans. Under his rule, 95% of Tibetans were serfs or slaves. Those who tried to change things were brutally tortured and murdered. The life expectancy of the average Tibetan was 35 years. It is now 65 years.
We are in a psyops war to keep our country in tact. Excuse me if I get a little passionate on it. I can see what will happen if the US wins. China will be knocked back a few centuries. Tibet will become a welfare state, China will face more drought and famine and millions more will die. Excuse me if I, as Chinese, do my best to prevent that from happening.

Tibet is the fastest growing economy in the western part of China, so you are right, it should be pleased to be part of China. Give it 10 more years and you'll have more educated people, more of a middle class a
36

Browards,

01/05/2008 02:47:45
29 Horrible Cankers

I hear those cheeks are very large.
37

57Nomad,

california 01/05/2008 06:16:19
#34 mash

mash said:

"#33 Oder you're full of carp, seriously. China has not killeld millions, that is complete and utter nonsense."

Great Leap Forward 15 to 40 million people dead.
Cultural Revolution at least one million people dead.



38

Mashimaro,

01/05/2008 07:12:12
#37 Did you read the second sentence or did your attention waver after the first... "Millions of people died during natural disasters and famine from midguided policies during Mao's rule. That is all."

There were not one million dead in the Cultural Revolution at the very most there were 500,000. Let's take a look at the UK/US alliance's work, shall we?
Korea, 2.8 million, Cambodia 1.6 million, Afghanistan 1.8 million, Vietnam 1.7 million, Laos 250 000, Lebanon 150 000, Gulf War 150 000, Somalia 400,000, Angola is not counted as are other wars created by the UKUS to further its empire. And still it continues, arming Ethiopians to invade Somalia.


39

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 07:58:04
#34 Mashimaro,China - "Millions of people died during natural disasters and famine from midguided policies during Mao's rule" - But especially by famine from midguided policies during Mao's rule i.e. caused by Mao. The Holodomor in the Ukraine was another example of millions being killed by "midguided policies" under Communism. Killing is killing, whether it is by a bullet through the back of the head or by famine caused by Communist policies.

40

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 08:21:32
#39 Rubbish... a bullet through the back of the head is active killing. Someone dying in a famine is accidental killing. Try to run that one past a lawyer sometime, Jimmy D.
And don't tell me that capitalism didn't kill people too.
"During the British rule in India there were approximately 25 major famines spread through states such as Tamil Nadu in South India, Bihar in the north, and Bengal in the east; altogether, between 30 and 40 million Indians were the victims of famines in the latter half of the 19th century"
Wow, you Brits beat Mao on that one.

Take a look at your policies in Africa, how you divided the Nile, leaving those up stream to starve.

I might also point out that China is prone to famines and has had them consistently for centuries.
The official number of dead in that particular famine is 20 million.
41

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 01/05/2008 08:31:49
#19 - Malignant canker

You post:-

"Bulldozing their homes and they are living like rats on the streets....that poor woman with her dead husband that they would not allow her to bury..."

You ask:-

"What kind of government can allow this to happen?...what kind of government cannot control its own employees and allows them to brutalise the poor, the less well off and the desperate???"

....What kind of government? The kind of government in the Whitehouse and Tel Aviv!

You know, your close allies.
42

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 09:04:16
#41 I love the hysterical lying that goes on in these forums. Those people are not living like rats on the street. They have been rehoused and compensated. How anyone can imagine otherwise is beyond comprehension. Do they seriously think Beijing would leave people living like rats in the city with western journalists crawling all over the place like cockroaches? Get real.
43

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 01/05/2008 09:28:45
#41, Let's have the truth,
It is always refreshing for me to see you post here, you, and there aren't many like you, can see past all the lying crap the west keeps producing, and you clearly have your thinking cap on, and I for one, appreciate you sticking your neck out for China. Is China perfect? of course not, but we are trying to overcome a difficult past and are continuing to make great improvements for our citizens, and that includes Tibet. It is a daunting task to say the least, with such a large population and with such varying geography. We have an unrelenting desert, or deserts, in the north and northwest, forever approaching closer and swallowing everything up in its path. We have harsh winters in the north, and we have the sub- tropics in the south, breeding all kinds of bacteria and viruses. Transportation of any kind is difficult, for with such a large population, there needs to be a massive infrastucture in place to be able to successfully and safely move people around to whatever destinations.
None of this has anything to do with Communism or politics, these are just natural challenges we are trying to overcome, and are slowly getting closer to reaching acceptible levels.
The western world is also knocking our doors down for our products, creating a lot of extra pressure on our environment trying to meet their demands, but for some reason they can't grasp that, and we are accused of being the worlds worst polluters. Maybe one day the west can see that we're not so bad, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that.
44

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 09:34:29
#40 Mashimaro,Red China - Holocaust deniers try these tactics too. Minimise the numbers, attribute the cause of death to disease and other causes and point the finger at others for their atrocities to draw attention away from those of their own. Death caused by famine caused by the deliberate (and flawed policies of Mao) is hardly an "accident" but in any case, Communists everywhere have always been involved in more than their fair share of "active killings".
I am not an apologist for the failings of the British Empire (which at the moment consists of Gibraltar, Tristan da Chuna, Ascension Island, the Falklands and a few other dots on the map). You in contrast are an apologist for the crimes of your regime past and present.
45

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 01/05/2008 09:48:35
#44 James Donald,
You are indeed an apologist for your government, for you voted them in, and have not managed to have them thrown out, despite their ongoing criminal war in Iraq, where who knows how many innocent people have died and are suffering beyond what we will ever know. So much for your Democratic system of allowing you to vote. It means absolutely nothing, and by you continuing to deny that fact, you're not showing any wisdom. By claiming that your vote is so important and such a privilege, why is it that nothing ever changes? The UK has a terrible history of atrocities it has inflicted all over the world, and is still guilty of that now. Show us your voting power, and have that government thrown out today. It can't and won't happen, and you know that as much as I do.
46

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 09:52:01
#44 Jimmy Dee... I really grow tired of your empty rehtoric. I am not an apologist for anyone, just a realist. I don't care if it was one million or fifty million, people died because Mao made a mistake. That was bad for the country. He's dead now, what would you like us to do, dig him up and hang him?
It is strange that you can say Britain has moved on, and yet you don't understand that China, too, has "moved on". Just recently China became a contributer to the world food fund, so it must be doing something right.
Perhaps you need to start reading about Deng Xiaoping and open your eyes, dude.
47

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 09:53:24
*High five* S'truth. You're brilliant, man.
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01/05/2008 10:22:54
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 11:32:24
#42, > Do they seriously think Beijing would leave people living like rats in the city with western journalists crawling all over the place like cockroaches? <

In other words, you're saying that it's only the presence of western journalists that makes the Chinese authorities behave at all decently?

Thanks for your honesty, anyway!
50

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 01/05/2008 11:35:23
HELLO JAMES DONALD,
Still with us buddy? Suddenly the cat seems to have gotten your tongue.
When put to the task of defending your useless voting power, you grow eerily silent. Why is that James Donald? Could it be that you know that your vote means sweet nothing? Why is it that your voting power allows to keep your present criminal government in power? Again, could it be that your vote means sweet nothing? Previously you claimed that it was an insult to the memory of the many who had died for this voting power. How many died James Donald? And you justify their deaths so that now your vote means sweet nothing? They died for nothing and you learned nothing from it. Can you see why I question if you have any intelligence? Just keep believing in your Democratic BS and all the privileges it affords you. You keep showing to all how naive and narrow minded you are, you Communist hater.
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01/05/2008 11:40:09
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Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 12:17:44
#49 Urban Guerrila "In other words, you're saying that it's only the presence of western journalists that makes the Chinese authorities behave at all decently?"

This is a government sponsored project. When the government overseas things it usually does thing decently. The central government would not let anything slip ahead of the Olympics. People who come into conflict with private contractors often fare a lot worse.

By the way, could you at least admit that you don't mind causing millions of deaths in China while you try to impose your imperliastic ideals on a foreign country - again.
53

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 12:38:41
#46 Mashimaro,Red China - "I really grow tired of your empty rehtoric" - If you are tired, have a lie down (constantly spouting the "party line" must be exhausting).
"I don't care if it was one million or fifty million, people died because Mao made a mistake. That was bad for the country" - This will be the caring face of Communism; millions of people die because Mao and his Communist cohorts made a "mistake". Yes indeed, that was bad for the country.
"He's dead now, what would you like us to do, dig him up and hang him?" - You would have to bury him first. It might be an idea if you did bury him (or cremate him) and turn his "hero worship" shrine on Tiananmen Square into a museum showing the past crimes/mistakes of the Communists and the "Great Helmsman"(there are superb museums of this type in Prague and Budapest if guidance is needed.
Deng Xiaoping? Wasn't he the charmer that sent PLA tanks into Tiananmen Square back in 1989? What a guy.
54

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 13:01:03
#50 postmark54,Chongqing,Red China - News for you "buddy", I don't spend all day, every day in the hope that some Red Quisling will post rubbish.
Parliamentary systems do not have "voting on demand" as well you know, but at set elections. Since you do not know how I vote (that is part of the deal that the ballot is secret), only an idiot would term me an apoligist for the government for having voted.
"Just keep believing in your Democratic BS and all the privileges it affords you" - and you keep believing in your fantasy workers' paradise where everything gets better day after day blah, blah, blah.....
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01/05/2008 13:02:05
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Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 13:44:06
#53 Yes Deng did send tanks into Tiananmen. Thank God he had the cahones to stand up to the cat pawing of the west and hold the country together. Can you imagine what would have happened if there were actualy riots.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 13:53:42
#56 Mashimaro,China - "Can you imagine what would have happened if there were actualy riots" - There might have been some material damage and some people might have been injured even killed. It was much better to send in the Army and massacre the problem. Well done Deng Xiaoping, brave defender of the Peoples' Republic.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 01/05/2008 14:15:15
#57 James Donald,
Thanks for admitting that you indeed voted for the current government, if you hadn't, you'd be standing on the rooftop screaming to everybody that you didn't vote for the current government. That, by the way, is also nice about your 'privilege' to vote, you all do it secretly, just in case your chosen leader turns out to be someone like Tony Blair, and now you can say, it wasn't me. Cowards, the works of you. At least when I voted in Canada, the 2 times I was naive to believe that it would mean anything, I proudly told people who I voted for, since it is suposed to be such a 'privilege'. It soon dawned on me, I was in my early twenties then, that voting was just a farce, and many of my aquaintances agreed with me, but not publicly the way I did. For some reason they were still afraid that they would lose the 'right' to vote.
Keep living in your little dream world James Donald, you have no idea what reality is all about. Every one of your comments is filled with hatred, and stupidity, and it sounds as if you actually believe yourself. The next time the circus rolls through town, you better sign up, they're always looking for more clowns, and the only thing bigger than your feet is your mouth.
59

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 15:03:16
#58 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - "Thanks for admitting that you indeed voted for the current government" - I don't think I admitted anything of the sort so guess again. I am not obliged to tell anyone who I did or did not vote for, least of all some Communist guttersnipe on the internet.
So you can continue your jibes at Tony Blair or whatever decadent western leader you like, I give not a jot. Similarly I care nothing for your rantings, nor do I care for the "reality" of a Communist "Mitty". The circus might work for you though, sign on and they may be able to get you out of the workers paradise. Once you are in the back in the west, it should be easy enough for you to defect.
60

Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 15:38:12
#57 Jimmy D "There might have been some material damage and some people might have been injured even killed."

This is like groundhog day. Everyone thinks it's like a hollywood movie - a few brave souls stand up for democracy and everything is okay after that. Rubbish. The country would have been torn apart and the death toll would have been in the hundreds of thousands. Leadership would have collapsed and with it services and insfrastructure. Tibet would have been severed from China and China would have been knocked back into poverty and famine.
The students were warned.
They saw the tanks coming in.
One way not to get hit by a tank is not to be anywhere near where it's going to fire
61

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 15:50:40
#52, > By the way, could you at least admit that you don't mind causing millions of deaths in China while you try to impose your imperliastic ideals on a foreign country - again. <

You don't need outsiders to cause millions of deaths in China. Your own leaders in the recent past have made something of a speciality of it!
62

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 15:52:56
> Can you imagine what would have happened if there were actualy riots. <

Yes. The tyrannical Chinese government might have fallen and the people of China might have been able to take a step towards freedom.
63

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 16:24:03
#60 Mashimaro,Red China - Things did not develop this way in the Soviet Union and satellite states so why would your apocalyptic scenario happen in China? I don't think your crystal ball works any better than mine so this is mere speculation on your part.
"One way not to get hit by a tank is not to be anywhere near where it's going to fire" - yet another way is not to deploy armoured vehicles on a crowded square at night. Perhaps the students could not quite believe that their own government would send the army to attack an unarmed crowd.
Here is an account by one of the students, no longer subsect to the censorship of the Communist moloch:

"Witnessing Tiananmen: Night of bloodshed"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3769371.stm
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Mashimaro,

China 01/05/2008 16:42:09
The USSR did not fall apart because of protests. And the decade after it fell was hell on its people. Now it's back. So what good did all that do?
I don't understand why students would not think the government would not send in the army to fire on them. Where would they have got that idea. Oh, I know... America, the CIA - you die we cry.
It was a great tragedy, but what did they expect?
And since that day Deng achieved great things in China.
65

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 17:04:07
#64, > I don't understand why students would not think the government would not send in the army to fire on them.

I expect they did. But they still wanted to stand up against evil. They were brave. All honour to them. Next time, I hope they'll succeed.
66

James Donald,

Newbridge 01/05/2008 17:07:16
#64 Mashimaro,Red China - "The USSR did not fall apart because of protests" - Why then would Communist China fall apart because of the protest of the students?
"And the decade after it fell was hell on its people. Now it's back. So what good did all that do?" - Hell for some, but not for all and it achieved freedom not only for the USSR but, more importantly, Eastern Europe.
"It was a great tragedy" - if you can still read through your crocodile tears here are some more witness stories:

"One of the much talked about achievements attributed to Mao was that it was he who had made it possible that "the Chinese people had finally stood up" - a sentence first used by Mao upon the city wall at Tiananmen Square on the first National Day [1 October] of New China in 1949.

But to me what he said at that time was not really true. Actually on 1 October 1949 Mao Zedong was the only person who had stood up. Millions of Chinese had since been stooping down and cowering low, and that included people like Zhou Enlai, the prime minister of the State Council.

Even Zhou had become only an obsequious "yes man" in front of Mao, let alone the ordinary Chinese people"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3749869.stm
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Mashimaro,

01/05/2008 17:21:29
#62 Lets take a look at the a few key cases of what people call a vacuum of power...
Germany post WW1 - Adolf Hitler
Cambodia - Pol Pot
Afghanistan - Taleban
Iraq - insurgency
Somalia - decades of war

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01/05/2008 17:54:53
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 18:47:15
#67, what's your point? Chairman Mao was worse than all of them put together.
70

Biker,

Ayr 01/05/2008 20:04:38
Mashimaro. Comment on the link supplied by cankers.
Amazing really that things have not improved since the cultural revolution when people are still starving in your country.
Postcrap. You realy aint clever enough to bandy words like this. Read the post again my myopic stupid friend.
Wanna talk about 2nd class in your adopted country? What about the Falun Gong and the disspossesed people within Bejing? I suppose its a figment of my imagination of course. Idiot
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01/05/2008 22:19:18
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01/05/2008 23:36:34
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01/05/2008 23:38:46
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Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 00:43:42
Biker I never read what the street filth writes. She is blocked from my screen. If you want me to comment on something you supply the link.

"Amazing really that things have not improved since the cultural revolution when people are still starving in your country."

You don't really know what happened during the cultural revolution, do you. It's patently obvious when you come out with such lap sap.

We have discussed the Falun Gong until we are blue in the face. They are inconsequential nutcases who like to make a spectacle of themselves when they know what will happen to them. They are also lying nutcases who believe that some wacko who thinks he is an alien is god. They are charlatans and dangerous ones at that because they tell people things like "if your pee is fizzy then that is the life force that is working through you" when the real reason you pee is fizzy is because you have diabetes and you need medical attention. It's interesting to note that they own the Epoch Times which people use to quote as if it's a real, unabiased newspaper. No, it's not. It lies. And it puts into question every single thing that they publish.
If these people were serious about religion they would be doing what the underground Catholic church is doing. Meet in groups in people's home and do their worshipping. But no, they insist on making a spectacle of themselves and being martyrs.
When they detonate toxic gas in an underground station and hundred of people die, they'll all want to know why the "government" didn't do more to stop them. Li is in bed with the US government and led an illegal protest of 10,000 people in China.
Hmmm let's plot this one out...a grain clerk decides he's an alien god - goes to the US where he is feted as if the is the Dalai Lama - he comes back to China and gathers 10,000 people to try to unseat the government - where have I heard that one before?
75

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 00:51:39
#70 Biker,
Where do you come up with the crap about people starving in China?
I don't know about Scotland, but Canada has numerous food banks to catch the people falling through the cracks, people that the Canadian government has turned a blind eye to for decades. And Canada is a Democratic country, so much for the great freedoms and protection of the Democratic system.

Nobody here in China is starving, more lies from your western media, lies that you happily believe.

You call the celebrities second rate,as I pointed out to you at #18, and I questioned you on why you classify people in any class? Thanks so much for ducking the questions.
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02/05/2008 02:07:46
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 02:33:38
#59 James Donald,
Time and time again I notice that most of your comments come from quoting myself or Mashimaro, showing your laziness and lack of things to say. You've been programmed all of your life by your lying government and media not to think for yourself, and it is clear in every comment you make that they have brainwashed you with total and complete success. You have no imagination, therefore all your quotes, and anything in print condemning China brings you wet dreams. Pathetic little life you have there James Donald, too bad you can't enjoy all the freedom offered here in the great country of China. I can see why you hate us so much, it's all envy, for we do have freedom and don't have to pay through the nose for the so called freedom the west offers.
By the way, Dragonhead made it to your shores as of yesterday, please say hello to him if you happen to bump into him. Thanks buddy, much appreciated.
78

Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 04:50:39
Reporting live from Hong Kong *grin*.
Drizzle failed to dampen the Olympic spirit of this former British colony as the historical journey of the sacred flame began. In fact the cooler weather seemed to enliven the runners and the crowds who had travelled to see the spectacle.
Torch bearers made their way through streets jammed with cheering supporters, most of whom wore red T-shirts to show their patriotic spirit.
On the banks of the Shung Ming River, school students were as excited as spring crickets as they awaited the Olympic symbol to make its river crossing on a traditional dragon boat. They had been practicing their cheering all week, holding their own mock relays to get into the spirit. They waved Chinese flags and yellow pompoms to represnt China's colours on this auspicious day.
Meanwhile Hong Kong's movers and shakers, chosen to bear the torch brought out their own fans to line the streets. San Lai-lai, Hong Kong's only gold medalist was first to touch the torch, starting her run with fans cheering themselves hoarse.
In Macau police braced for any protests, even though the chances of this happening in China's casino city were extremely low...
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James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 08:08:10
#77 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - "Time and time again I notice that most of your comments come from quoting myself or Mashimaro, showing your laziness and lack of things to say" - Pot calling the kettle black there I feel. This is the way I post (as do others), quoting the particular part of another post I am commenting on. You certainly have a lack of things to say as most of your post is recycled crap about brainwashing etc....
"Pathetic little life you have there James Donald, too bad you can't enjoy all the freedom offered here in the great country of China" - Since you know nothing of my life it is rather "lazy" of you to resort to such piffle. As for freedom, I will just have to pass on the freedom "enjoyed" in Communist China and remain in Europe envious of the workers' paradise.
I do not think Dragonhead (aka Dick Head) would appreciate me saying hello - he does not like me much as i have punctured a few of his "Mitty" fantasies in the past. If he returns to the Red China with any strange western ideas, you'll be sure that he is sent for "re-education" won't you.
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Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 08:31:59
*stifles a yawn*
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James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 08:50:01
#80 Mashimaro,Red China - Tired again? Time for another lie down perhaps.
82

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 08:51:49
#70 James Donald,
So James Donald, exactly what is it that you know about China firsthand? Have you ever visited here? have you ever lived here? Can you back up all the negative and hateful things that you so frequently accuse China of? Has any Communist actually threatened you with your life, right to your face? Or indirectly for that matter? Why is it that you have such a deep and spiteful hatred towards people and their system that you've never actually experienced personally? Why is it that you only believe what you want to believe? And not the truth? Can you see why I label you narrow minded and brainwashed? Is it beginning to sink in to your head why you can't be taken seriously? Do you think that you can answer the questions I just asked you to answer? And answer them honestly? Without going into your hateful little remarks? And do you think that you could answer my questions without quoting someone else for a change? Is it indeed possible for you to answer my questions by strictly stating your own thoughts? or is that asking too much from you? Have you bumped into Dragonhead yet? And have you said hello to him from me yet? Should I thank you now or later?
83

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 09:16:32
#82 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - The point of these superfluous questions is what exactly? This is a comments page of a western newspaper (the ones you despise so much). It is for commenting on news stories and I am not obliged to answer questions from some numpty on the internet. I can choose whether or not I want to tell you of my personal experiences with Communist dross in the past if I want to but, as I suspect your "thirst for knowledge" of my experiences is insincere, I choose not to. No secret police here to "oblige" me to answer anything. Do you get me now? I've already told you that I don't do request for Secret Police wanabees.
I wouldn't say hello to Dragonhead on a lonely day; I was always warned never to talk to strange old men.
84

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 09:34:52
#83 James Donald,
Thank you James Donald, by not answering any of my questions, you've answered all that I needed to know about you, types the like of you always respond the same way, not being able to think for themselves, and quickly turtling and going into a defensive position, or else just choosing to run.
By the way, is that any way to treat a guest to your country? by not even giving a fine chap like Dragonhead the time of day? How sad the west has become, you don't even know how to express hospitality. Sad indeed.
I imagine if I were to pay you a visit, you would be much more hospitable to me though, wouldn't you? After all, it is me that is giving you a free education about life. You're welcome.
85

Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 09:56:25
#81 So boring watching the torch in dignified Hong Kong. No violence like western cavemen, lah. What to do?
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02/05/2008 10:07:49
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James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 11:12:23
#84 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - No thanks required or desired; Please answer my questions. What is your real name and address? Where were you born? What relations do you still have in the west? What was the decisive event in your life that turned you into a Red Quisling? Was it the prospect of a young Chinese bride that led you to emigrate to Communist China or ideological conviction? Do you work for the Chinese government and, if so, what department? Of course you are under no obligation to answer these questions for me. You will only have to answer questions if the day dawns that you find yourself in a police cell in the workers' paradise with a "gestapo lamp" shining in your face. Now, what was the rest of the guff you were on about? Turtling, defensive position, choosing to run, free education about life? Oh yes, just so much drivel.
Your fine chap and fellow "Mitty" Dragonhead once threatened to "deck me on the spot" for accusing him of smoking tea bags. Best for me to avoid him then as it will make me look bad if I have to pummel an old man. However, you let me know when you are coming to Scotland and I will pass your details on to Special Branch (as well as whatever Tibetan exile groups I can find). Hope this doesn't put you off.
88

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 11:49:26
#87 James Donald,
First things first, your Scottish 'Special Branch', would that the be the one that will be competing in the 2008 'Special Olympics'? Guaranteed to clean up on all the gold, I'm sure of that.

My name is postmark54, as you can clearly read.
My address is Chongqing, China, as you can clearly read..
I was born in the west, as I've mentioned many times before.
The prospect of a young bride wasn't part of my decision, but having a very kind, loving and beautiful girlfriend, deepens my love for China even more.
I have siblings and children in the west, plus a vast collection of aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces and nephews.
I came to China by invitation.
I don't directly work for the government, but I'm sure my taxes go to them, so if you consider that as working for them, then by all means I work for them.
As far as a Red Quisling goes, I have told you before that I have no idea what that is, so I'm sorry to say that I am not able to answer you on that one, as much as I would like to.
And finally, the Tibetan exile groups are cowards, just like their so called leader, The Dalai Lama, so they by no means would deter me from visiting your country.
In closing, I sincerely hope that I have answered all your questions to your satisfaction, so that you can have a pleasant lunch and a good afternoon nap.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 12:03:31
#88 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - Special Branch is part of the Metropolitan Police tasked with dealing with subversives amongst its other tasks.
I was not really looking for any answers to my questions, especially not the evasive ones you have posted here - turtling, defensive position, choosing to run. See, just as easy for me to post nonsense as for you.
My offer still stands though; let me know your real name, passport number as well as the date and place of your arrival in Scotland and I will endevour to ensure that you have the opportunity to meet some cowardly Tibetans as well as some others who would like to make your trip a memorable experience.
90

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 02/05/2008 12:15:55
International scientific community pays tribute to Chinese factory hand for his contribution to medicine.

Dr Jian Zhou who began his working life as a factory hand during China's Cultural Revolution in the 70's was honoured today at a special memorial service in Brisbane Australia.

Dr Zhou, co-developer of the cervical cancer vaccine, who was was once ridiculed in western scientific journals for his radical ideas, died suddenly a decade ago.

He is now regarded as a giant of the scientific world for his work that will contribute to saving the lives of millions of women around the world.

Cervical cancer generally affects women who have borne children and as such, it would be understood if "Malignant Canker" will never be a beneficiary of Dr Zhou's work.

Those who mistakenly believe the Chinese are un-original thinkers should pit their creativity against the millions of other Chinese who are just as determined to prove you people wrong.

They will not have to try hard.

91

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 12:38:44
#89 James Donald,
That 'Special Branch' of the Metropolitan Police sound like they're much worse than what you've accused the Chinese government of. Thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to steer clear of them.
Your cowardly exiled Tibetans will just go deeper into hiding if they know someone from China is paying your country a visit, so that means they will steer well clear of me.
I answered your questions because I'm polite, so again, you can learn a lesson from me. I see that you still like to quote me, since I'm much more original in my thinking than you are, but again, you're welcome. See how polite I am?
My answers may have seemed evasive to you, but I did answer your questions, again, because I am so polite.
And last, but definitely not least, thank you so much for your warm invitation to visit your country, I will appreciate your warm gesture for a lifetime. Thanks buddy, now you can have a well deserved nap.
92

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 13:05:02
#91 postmark54,Chongqing,Red China - Special Branch won't torture or kill you, nor will they imprison you without trial. In fact, you won't even notice them unless you engage in subversive activities.
"Your cowardly exiled Tibetans will just go deeper into hiding if they know someone from China is paying your country a visit, so that means they will steer well clear of me" - I'll take that as a "no" to my offer.
What lessons are there to learn from an idiot with a big ego? Not much if you think your "trumpet blowing" is original thinking. If you think of any more idiotic questions to ask, be sure to keep them to yourself (wouldn't want to be impolite).
93

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

02/05/2008 13:09:41
90....

No one here is saying that the Chinese are unoriginal thinkers..take Confucious for example, who said...

"An oppressive government is to be more feared than a tiger"...pretty apt dont you think?..

You are a bit loopy are you not?...I mean face it mate, I am delighted not to have to 'benefit' from the Doc's work!!

You reveal yourself troll

....nutjob....
94

Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 13:26:19
S'truth! Who told you the Chinese are unoriginal thinkers? Did the not notice things like paper, gunpowder, the pony express, the compass, printing, toilet paper, the bristle toothbrush, canal locks, the recurved bow, the canon, scissor, Pythagora's therom, the vaccine, holy cow they had tamed the heavens why you people were still ... well you get the picture, how about chopsticks eh?
Have you ever walked in a Chinese garden? I would wager not because no one who has walked in a Chinese garden could ever ever say Chinese are unoriginal thinkers.
How about the siesmometer, the umbrella, the suspension bridge.
Chinese had explored and inhabited most of the world before westerners.
Ever tasted the perfection of Peking Duck?

Cavemen
95

Mashimaro,

02/05/2008 13:28:56
#92 "Special Branch won't torture or kill you, nor will they imprison you without trial. In fact, you won't even notice them unless you engage in subversive activities."
But MI6 will... mu ha ha ha ha ha.

96

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 13:38:51
#95 Mashimaro - MI6 is in charge of external security. MI5 will take care of internal subversives who are a threat to national security. Get it right.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 14:07:35
#92 James Donald,
Hey old buddy, old pal and most trusted comrade, why haven't you gone for your nap. you almost seem cranky or grouchy, and I hate to see you pop a vein in your head, please take that nap. and you'll feel much better.
I realized that you called yourself an idiot with a big ego, surely you couldn't have been referring to me, remember, you're far too polite for that.
I also realize that if I ask you ANY questions, your thought process isn't there to come up with an answer, so I will kindly spare you the inevitable headaches such questions would bring.
Damn, I'm so considerate of your feelings, see how good and kind Communists really are? There's really no need to hate us, we're kind and considerate, and are here to give you a better life, and total freedom. So if you are 'dropping some coin' to come and pay me a visit, remember to look me up in the phone book, last time I told you that you'll find me on page 87,473,152 and I also told you that you can't miss it.
Looking forward to seeing you buddy, have a safe trip.
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02/05/2008 14:59:53
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Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 15:10:03
#96 Sorry Jimmy, I find it really hard to keep track of which of your organisations are allowed to torture captives and beat them to death, and which aren't.
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 15:51:24
#99, don't be silly. This isn't China, you know.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 02/05/2008 16:08:40
#99 Mashimaro,
Now you've gone and done it, you drove Jimmy D. into his room by being too harsh. When will he come out and play again? I find him to be such a good playmate. Oh well, I see that you have the Urban Guerilla to play with, but please don't send him packing like you did with my pal James Donald, for then you too will get bored, just like me.
Dragonhead has landed safely he informed me, I'm sure he has contacted you as well.
As far as the UK authorities go, they're all allowed to do as they please, remember the innocent young Brazilian engineer they gunned down in cold blood for no reason? They don't answer to anybody, for they don't have to. Democracy is sounding better all the time isn't it?
102

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 16:25:19
#97 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - Even in the land of milk and honey that is Europe, we have to work occaisionally so I can't be on 24 hour stand by for every Tom, Dick and Nutbar on the internet.
"I realized that you called yourself an idiot with a big ego, surely you couldn't have been referring to me, remember, you're far too polite for that" - You have the wrong end of the stick again. It is one thing to be polite, but sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, eh Mitty boy?
Communists are indeed considerate. They dig nice pit for their victime to fall into once they have been shot and keep their slave labour camps well away from prying eyes.
Unfortunately, I do not visit Communist slave states until their oppressive regimes have been overthrown, so I have a few states in Eastern Europe I have to visit for the time being. In the meantime, perhaps you and a few of your fellow prolitarian toilers will see the light and try to throw off the shackles of the CCP. Once you have disposed of the current regime, I will be happy to visit. You'll still have your Canadian passport, I presume, if it all goes pear shaped.
103

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 16:30:40
#99 Mashimaro,Red China - You have it wrong again as MI6 does not engage in this sort of activity, especially not on British soil. You shouldn't listen to the lunitic rantings of "Walter Mitty" types who will tell you all sorts of stories about the evil Imperialist West.
Any time you want to defect, there is plenty of room here in Scotland for you.
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02/05/2008 16:37:24
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Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

02/05/2008 16:38:50
You boys really do not like that film.....keep having it removed....now why is that?
106

Biker,

Ayr 02/05/2008 16:50:26
Mashimaro. IIt kinda reflects your idea of a free speech site if one of the main participants is constantly blocked.
The site is,http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1357069DKZqmaty.
Postcrap, try to keep up will you? There have been several report from the north of your adopted country of starvation in rural areas, this is not to mention the Nomads in Tibet. Remember, the ones who were taken from the land to camps and animals removed?
Go back to sleep idiot. You are a disgrace!!!
107

Dragonhead - London's East End,

02/05/2008 17:00:06
Where are you stupid boys??...hurry hurry hurry...you take too long replying to western devils!!!....oh trust me to send in boys to do a man's job...knew I should never have gone on and left you...bunch of wimps!
108

Mashimaro,

China 02/05/2008 18:11:27
#103 Oh Jimmy dee eeee...
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/tort-m08.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/iraq-m10.shtml

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/army-faces-new-torture-claims-over-arrest-of-shia-leader-805237.html

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200804301521.htm

109

James Donald,

Newbridge 02/05/2008 19:21:03
#108 Mashimaro, Red China - Is this the best you can do? Torture and murder are not state policy in Britain and most countries in Europe even by the Security Services. Contrast this with the workers' paradise:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/dec/03/china.jonathanwatts

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/UK/Amnesty_report_says_China_leads_the_world_in_executions/articleshow/2952063.cms
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02/05/2008 20:20:00
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02/05/2008 22:30:35
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Mashimaro,

03/05/2008 02:23:17
Ah but Jimmy Dee, it is policy of the British. Remember the recent story of a man captured in his own country tortured and beaten to death by your wonderful security forces? I need to track down the story but I will when I have the time.
That proves the instituionalisation of torture and killing in your society and in your government.
What about those renditon flights taking people kidnapped in sovreign countries and flown on to be tortured, killer or imprisoned without trial. That is complicity with torture.
So do not try to take the moral high ground with me, lap sap.
113

James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 08:23:02
#112 Mashimaro - I do not excuse everything that my government and its agencies do, your the apologist remember.
You track down the story but I think you will find that this and rendition flights does not mean that torture and execution is government policy.
I don't expect to see any Communists scum up on the "moral high ground", they are down with the rest of the trash.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 03/05/2008 08:52:55
#109 James Donald,
You asked Mashimaro if that was the best that he could do when he provided you with links that your government indeed condones and commits torture, that sure makes YOU an apoligist for your corrupt government. Your corrupt government, along with the Bush adminisration, an administration that is a close ally to your government, both condone and commit torture, and you can deny that all you want, but it is the truth. So better head back to the drawing board and start from scratch, and leave China out of the picture you draw, and get your ELECTED government to stop their blatant abuse of human rights. You and your childish and biased opinions carry no weight, nobody is buying your apologist crap for a second.
Your European 'milk and honey' has been come by through theft and murder, so quit your stupid apologistic behaviour, and confess to the truth.
Remember, you and your 'privilege to vote' put those criminals in power, now put your vote to work and show us how much weight your vote carries. Prove to us that Democracy is better than Communism, we both know that you will fail miserably, because we both know your vote means JACK SH!T.
115

James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 09:16:38
#114 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - "You asked Mashimaro if that was the best that he could do when he provided you with links that your government indeed condones and commits torture, that sure makes YOU an apoligist for your corrupt government" - maybe in the la la land you inhabit but not in my book. If I disagree with what my government does and the company it keeps them I can and do protest against them without fear of imprisonment or worse for doing so. I don't know anyone that has been tortured by the security services and have never heard of any such abuse. You could try visiting the Amnesty Internation site for details of human rights abuses in the West but be sure to visit the section on Communist China whilst you are at it. Compare and contrast.
If you want to know if Democracy is better than Communism, try asking people that have lived under both systems in the Czech Republic, Eastern Germany, Poland, Romania, Hungary. I have and I have drawn my own conclusions. I regret to inform you that the bigoted rantings of a self confessed Communist and apologist for an oppresive one-part state have done nothing to change my opinions (in fact, quite the reverse).
So run along now, nobody is buying you pro-Communist guff.
116

postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 03/05/2008 09:21:40
#106 Biker,
And yet you've shoved your head furthe up your @ss, how is that even possible?
Nobody is starving in China, unless they've got themselves lost in the desert or some mountain range somewhere, these things happen, nobody can prevent that. The reports you quote that come out of China about starvation are blatant lies yet again, that's why you believe them, because they tell lies about China, a country you so blatantly hate.
And speaking about your head being up your @ss, you refer to the Tibetan Nomads, 'Nomad' meaning you have no home, and wander around trying to carve a living out for yourself, your family and livestock. Hard to keep track of these people, they don't stay in the same place very long, and if they happen to starve, that is a natural thing, no government can be held accountable for the actions of Nomads, they choose to move around, nobody forces them to.
Biker, one good thing, if you manage to stick your head any further up your @ss, it will soon pop back out through your neck, so not all hope is lost for you.
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Mashimaro,

03/05/2008 09:24:35
113 James, when British soldiers can torture a man to death, I think you will find it is indeed government policy. Just as kidnapping people in other sovreign states and outsourcing torture is government policy.

Now, I'm interested to know what you think happened at Tiananmen. You know, just a brief rundown of events as they happened. And I would also like to know why you should think someone like Deng Xiaopeng - who had been tossed out of the party several times for being a liberal - would crush a student demonstration on democracy. hmmm?
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 03/05/2008 09:40:01
#115 James Donald,
Having the 'right' to protest is a far cry from having the 'privilege' to vote. We have many protests here in China, concerning a wide variety of reasons, and any peaceful protest is condoned. If we have the violent ones like the ones held by those lunatic Dalai Lama supporters, the same supporters who indiscriminately butchered any one getting in their way, well, then we have a different story with a different outcome. That was dealt with by our government in a responsible manner, with the actions of our government putting an end to an extremely dangerous situation. I'm sure that any responsible government would have responded in the same manner.
You also accuse Mashimaro and myself for being government apologists, but you keep forgetting one very important thing, we don't vote, so we are not responsible and have nothing to apologize for. Besides, our modern day government is doing great things for us, I can not speak for past governments, I wasn't here and couldn't witness anything by them, but being here now, I witness daily the progress made in the name of bettering the lives for our citizens. If we have 'milk and honey', it's because we've earned it, and not stolen it, and our government helps us earn it, by not taxing us to death.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 09:46:27
#117 Mashimaro,03/05/2008 - "when British soldiers can torture a man to death, I think you will find it is indeed government policy" - Maybe in the workers' paradise but things are different here. I did not support the attack on Iraq nor the continuing US-led occupation but the comments on that are usually in the Middle East section (have a look through the old threads and you will find that I even criticise the government and yet I am not in prison and haven't been tortured).
Tiananmen - here is a brief summary for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
I read about it in greater depth in "The Black Book of Communism" but since you are not really interested in what I think happened, I don't care to waste time and effort quoting from that book here (you will not be able to read the book yourself as it is likely banned in your country). Liberal is a relative term when it comes to Communism; maybe Trotsky was more "liberal" than Stalin but they were both murdering scum. So yes, I think Deng Xiaopeng was more than capable of crushing a staudent demonstration if he thought it was a threat to his authority. Is Deng the new "hero worship" figure in China after Mao?
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 09:48:03
#118 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - Go for a lie down, sober up then try to post something more substantial than this honk.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 03/05/2008 09:54:03
#120 James Donald,
So I'll interpret that as you throwing in the towel, You never were much of a challenge. NEXT.
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Mashimaro,

03/05/2008 11:42:05
#119 Deng is just one of the men I admire. He is the man who reformed a lot of the system. I really am interested in what you think to be the truth re Tiananmen because having seen your media reports on Tibet... I can imagine the bull carp that has been fed into your minds.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 03/05/2008 12:08:45
#122 Mashimaro,
I believe our great comrade James Donald is yet stuck again in the corner, where he ends up painting himself time and again. Remember, he has no facts, spews out all the crap the west has spoonfed him all of his Communist hating life, so words can't come quickly enough to his one track, and filled with hatred, little mind. You have pushed and tested him, as have I, and he's at a loss for words, that's what happens when he doesn't know the facts. He'll come roaring back, but still without facts, and will once again make a fool out of himself, kinda like Biker keeps doing to himself. The almighty vote can't save them this time, and actually can't in their country either.
Aaah, the life of luxury we lead here in China. And we never have to waste our time to go and cast a useful vote.
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03/05/2008 14:47:37
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03/05/2008 14:52:55
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 14:57:34
#121 postmark54,Chongqing, Red China - Interpret it any way you like. When you have something original and sensible to say instead of this clap trap, let me know.
In the mean time, enjoy your life of luxury in the workers' paradise (a life of luxury that seems to be short of luxury except for the few with enough money), free from the burden of democracy and freedom.
Looks like your putrid government is renewing its attacks on the Dalai Lama - nice man. I met him in Glasgow a few years back and he was very different from the monster the scum who run your country portray him as.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7381672.stm
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03/05/2008 14:59:49
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Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

03/05/2008 15:04:32
126...Just read that...they really are guilty of crass stupidity...this is just an exercise in political tip-toeing for the CCP....they will not allow themselves to lose face...if so their people will realise that the whole thing is a lie and then you might just see another bliddy revolution allright...

....hypocrites...
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Mashimaro,

03/05/2008 16:08:33
#126 Looks like your putrid government is renewing its attacks on the Dalai Lama - nice man. I met him in Glasgow a few years back and he was very different from the monster the scum who run your country portray him as.

Oh really... tell me did he give you a souvenier of the skin he flayed off living people?
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 16:57:01
#129 Mashimaro - No he gave me a shrunken head of a dead Communist. Didn't he eat babies roasted on a spit as well?
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Mashimaro,

China 03/05/2008 17:19:16
If you ever go to Tibet, head to the museum in Lhasa where you can see his signature on the order to skin two serf children for the leather for musical instruments for his birthday.
Wake up and smell the putrid flesh Jimmy D.
Have you never seen the Tiben drums skinned with human skin? Where d'you think the Nazis got their ideas from? Have you not seen the limbs chopped off? The muliple manacles used to hold four slaves at a time. Have you not seen a cangue?
HOw about the pictures of Tibetan serfs fighting off dogs for a scrap of food.
Mmm I wouldn't think your masters would like you to see such things, eh Jimmy.
Oh...PS...they didn't shrink the heads...they used skulls as cups, bowls and religious artefacts.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 17:40:04
#131 Mashimaro,Red China - Ho hum, I don't believe your propaganda so why would I believe anything in a Communist museum?
The Nazis got there ideas from the Tibetans. That's a good one. You'll be telling me next that the Dalai Lama visited Auschwitz and took part in the final solution.
Unlike you and your fellow Communist slaves I don't have a "master" or "masters", so I can't think whou you mean by this. Save your Tibetan scare stories for the kids.
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Mashimaro,

China 03/05/2008 18:23:35
Dude, you can get this sh1t off Ripleys if you want to.
Take a tour of your nearest Ripleys show and see it first hand.
Um...Jimmy... where d'you think the Nazis got their swastika, dude?
You don't want to take China's word for it, take the NY times
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E5DB133EF932A15755C0A961958260

this one is a bit emotive

http://www.cloakanddagger.de/home%20page%20items/Hitler%20and%20the%20Dalai%20Lama.htm

So you do have masters after all hmm, controlling what you see and read and hear and think.
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Mashimaro,

China 03/05/2008 18:26:01
Oh...and about Tiananmen...come on. You KNOW what happened. Dish it up and let's take a closer look.
Be sure you include the US's involvement, please.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 19:12:37
#133 Mashimaro,Red China - "Dude", you can "prove" anything on the internet. There are sites that will tell you the world is flat, that Mao wasn't a mass murderer and the George Bush is a great President. However, I have yet to find a site that proves that the Nazis used the swastika because they were inspired by Tibet. The Swastika or Fylfot was used in Europe (and elsewhere) hundreds of years before anyone here had even heard of Tibet. You might as well claim that the nazis were inspired to use the symbol by the Swastika stone on Ilkley Moor.
I saw the film "Seven Years in Tibet" which is probably more than you have, so the Dalai Lama had a friend that was in the SS. One of my neighbours was in the Waffen-SS but what does that prove?
"this one is a bit emotive", not to mention ridiculous. I am surprised at you posting a link to the drivel of a religious fanatic who is clearly a sandwich or two short of a picnic. Shame on you, but when you try to smear someone anything goes, right?
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 19:14:41
#134 Mashimaro,Red China - I posted you a link and I gave you the name of the book that you should read. If your government won't let you read the book then that is not my fault.
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03/05/2008 19:19:10
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Mashimaro,

China 03/05/2008 19:54:56
It's a simple question jimmy dee the artful dodger... man on man...what do you believe happened at Tiananmen.

Oh, BTW, I have seen seven years in tibet. You would be surprised as to what you can get in China if you want to. It was a joke, an disgusting attempt to repackage two monsters into a more acceptable form, sponsored by the zionist media bosses.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 20:37:46
#138 Mashimaro,Red China - Boiled down, the Communist Party suppressed dissent with its traditional brutality.
For the "wordy" version you could try the book "Voices from Tiananmen Square: Beijing Spring and the Democracy Movement" by Mok Chiu Yu and J.Frank Harrison. Also "The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression" by C Courtois (and others). If you can get western films then these books should be no problem for you to obtain.
I didn't say I liked "Seven Years in Tibet", actually I found it rather dull. Of course as a mouth piece for the Chinese Communist government you despise the Dalai Lama as a "monster" by why exactly was Heinrich Harrer a "monster"?

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James Donald,

Newbridge 03/05/2008 20:41:52
#138 Mashimaro,Red China - Have you stopped beating your wife? A simple question but you are not obliged to answer and I promise I won't call you "chicken", or "artful dodger" or "zipper head".
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03/05/2008 23:31:42
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Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

03/05/2008 23:33:51
131...Mushymarrow baby...prove it...what a load of nonsense...you commie trolls are desperate in your attempts to discredit the Dalai Lama....times change mate...this aint just about the Dalai Lama...or hadnt you noticed?
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03/05/2008 23:48:34
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03/05/2008 23:58:20
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Mashimaro,

China Guangdong 04/05/2008 03:44:51
#139 Mashimaro,Red China - Boiled down, the Communist Party suppressed dissent with its traditional brutality.
For the "wordy" version you could try the book "Voices from Tiananmen Square: Beijing Spring and the Democracy Movement" by Mok Chiu Yu and J.Frank Harrison. Also "The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression" by C Courtois (and others). If you can get western films then these books should be no problem for you to obtain.
I didn't say I liked "Seven Years in Tibet", actually I found it rather dull. Of course as a mouth piece for the Chinese Communist government you despise the Dalai Lama as a "monster" by why exactly was Heinrich Harrer a "monster"?

Oh come now Jimmy Dee. You can do better that that. What is it, are you desperately trying to look things up on the net and finding that you are being corrected all the time?
What happened July 3/4? It's not a hard questions. You don't need to throw books at me. I want to know what YOU think - if indeed you do think at all.

Thank you for your efforts of trying to think.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 04/05/2008 08:11:26
#145 Mashimaro,China Guangdong - "What is it, are you desperately trying to look things up on the net and finding that you are being corrected all the time?" - Perhaps the internet (or rather the internet sites that your government allows you to view) is your exclusive source of research but I still read books, newspapers and magazines.
What exactly is the point of this "what happened on July 3/4" nonsense? I am not a performing seal that you can order about for your own amusement. If this is some sort of lead up to spouting the CCP line on the events, spare yourself the trouble.

147

Mashimaro,

China 04/05/2008 08:54:25
Well Jimmy, let's just say that over a couple of maotais the other night, me and my mates were discussing the western obsession with Tiananmen. I know most of it is just for show, like we tease you about wiping out native Americans and such. But the general conclusion was, given the lies the western media has printed about the unrest in Tibet, that it is entirely possible a great many westerners have been misled into believing certain things about the run up to and the evens of June 4.
So, I was just wondering which version you were anchored in.
That is why I want to hear it from you, not books or other websites.
Now I realise, however, that you have no clue as to what you know or believe about Tiananmen. Just like most westerners you have a vague idea that something bad happened and tanks and soldiers and students ... must have been the army and a massacre of people wanting democracy...yeah...that was it...
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James Donald,

Newbridge 04/05/2008 09:39:13
#147 Mashimaro,Red China - " I know most of it is just for show, like we tease you about wiping out native Americans" - "We" didn't wipe out the native Americans (they were not entirely wiped out in any case), but perhaps this is part of a tendency (no doubt encouraged by the government) to see the "West" as a single entity inhabited by "Western Devils".
The events in Tiananmen Square were widely reported in the "western media" but, as a European, I was more concerned with what was happening in Eastern Europe with the collapse of Communism there.
"So, I was just wondering which version you were anchored in.
That is why I want to hear it from you, not books or other websites" - sure you did. As I stated, I am not a performing seal to carry out tasks at your behest. Safe to say that I do not think that the brutal repression of the protestors by the PLA was unjustified and an indication of the nature of the so-called Peoples' Republic. A dictatorship of the worst kind.
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Mashimaro,

China 04/05/2008 09:53:22
Wow Jimmy, all I'm doing is asking for your view. Isn't that what these fora are for?
Surely you've had enough time to flip through a good number of websites on Tiananmen by now. What's the matter, are they not concise or clear?
So you, like many other westerners, think it's a good stick with which to beat Chinese but in actual fact you have no idea as to what happened.
I guess postmark is right about you.
FROG...WELL...
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04/05/2008 11:09:18
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04/05/2008 11:18:42
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James Donald,

Newbridge 04/05/2008 11:27:31
#149 Mashimaro,Red China - This is supposed to be a place to post comments on the story and as you will agree we have strayed pretty far from that. Some, of course, use this and other newspaper sites as a vehicle for their propaganda, one of these reasons that Middle East conflict stories seldom permit comments.
Flip through your own websites if you must (or if you can) - you will no doubt inform me of the "real" truth in response to anything that I post. The glorious PLA suppressed a dangerous attempt at counter revolution by misled students led by CIA agent provocateurs etc....ect....
"So you, like many other westerners, think it's a good stick with which to beat Chinese but in actual fact you have no idea as to what happened" - If you say so. Were you actually present at the time of the protests and subsequent massacre or do you just believe what the Party machine tells you?
Keep bashing those "Western Devils", but don't let it get too out of control.
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Mashimaro,

China 04/05/2008 12:15:41
James...give it up dude. You got nothing. What if I was there. It would make no difference to you.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 04/05/2008 12:58:41
#153 Mashimaro,Red China - "James...give it up dude. You got nothing" - After you, sonny. You got nothing except what the Party lets you believe.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 04/05/2008 13:08:22
#152 James Donald,
Not many people know everything that went on at Tiananmen Square, I know I don't, that's why I don't comment on what happened there. I wasn't there, neither were you, so everything you and I heard came from the lying west.
I am here in China now though, and you're not, so when I tell you that things here are good indeed, you still don't believe me.
Other than your western media, who has told you that things in China are as horrendous as you claim they are? Nobody James Donald, nobody. The reports you hear, see and read are lying, to keep up the hatred for the Communists and Communism. It has worked well with you, for you openly admit that you hate us and our system, a system that you have never witnessed for yourself, but I witness daily.
So, until you come over here for a spell, and see for yourself what is happening here, you are what's known as an unreliable witness.
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 04/05/2008 13:16:22
#155, > Not many people know everything that went on at Tiananmen Square, I know I don't, that's why I don't comment on what happened there.

Not many people know everything that went on at Auschwitz, either. Should that stop us commenting on it?
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04/05/2008 13:18:16
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Polly Ann,

04/05/2008 13:20:12
57 Horrible Cankers

You sick Troll, show us the ovens and camps.
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04/05/2008 13:23:40
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04/05/2008 13:30:29
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James Donald,

Newbridge 04/05/2008 13:38:57
#155 postmark54,Chongqing,Red China - You are a self-confessed Communist, sycophantic admirer and apologist for your government so that makes you a very unreliable witness in my book.
Everyone is lying to me about the workers' paradise except you and all those who praise your adopted country. Ho, hum...same old, same old.....
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Landman,

04/05/2008 13:39:07
159 Horrible Troll

There is a big difference from taking skin to graft onto burn victims from dead prisoners than what the Nazis did. Only a Troll like you would say they are the same.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 04/05/2008 14:29:23
#156 Urban Guerrilla,
Please try to stay with me here, if you can.
Do you think for even one minute that if there was a trial as to what happened at Tiananmen Square, or Auschwitz for that matter, that you would be called upon as a witness, despite the fact that you were never a witness? We both know that would never happen, if you believe it would, then you are indeed a fool.
Your comments are just that, only comments, and won't change a thing, and carry no weight when it comes to justice. You are most definitely entitled to your opinion[s], but again, those opinions can't and won't change a thing as to what happened.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 04/05/2008 14:32:31
#161 James Donald,
For awhile, even though you were misinformed, you tried to bring something to the table, now you just babble.
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Mashimaro,

China 04/05/2008 14:58:46
So the talks between Beijing and the Duhh Lie Lama's "representatives" are going on in Shenzhen. Anyone who's ever been there will know exactly what they'll be doing afterwards - a bit of a massage, a bagful of pirated movies and a few LV knockoffs before heading home, I'll wager.
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 04/05/2008 15:04:45
> You are most definitely entitled to your opinion[s], but again, those opinions can't and won't change a thing as to what happened.<

Alas, no, although I would hope that a gradually mounting worldwide condemnation of the Chinese regime and an increasing global isolation of China along the lines we saw with apartheid South Africa might help the Chinese people to rise and overthrow their masters, withdraw from occupied Tibet and establish a free, just and open government.

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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 04/05/2008 15:34:32
#166 Urban Guerrilla,
I clearly referred to the past, by saying that it can't and won't change what 'happened'. That would be past tense.
As for what is happening now, I live here, I see what is happening, on a daily basis, I am a witness to that, where as you are not, you just go by lying reports. And what I witness daily, is a government doing the best that it can to try to improve the quality oflife for its 1.3 billion citizens, a daunting task to say the least, especially when the west just keeps lying about the conditions here in China.
I am trying to be patient with you here Urban Guerrilla, I sincerely hope that you're not another Communist hater and Communism hater, like James Donald. If that's the case, you would also agree with him that the only good Communist is a dead Communist, and I don't want to lose respect for you. We are after all part of the human race, and if the only good Communist is a dead Communist, so much for your human rights concerns. We both know that James Donald has no concerns for human rights, otherwise he would have never made that comment, and he is standing by that comment, it wasn't made as an off the cuff remark.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 04/05/2008 16:37:01
#164 postmark54,Chongqing,Red China - Funny I have always thought you an odious toad spouting Communist propaganda with a nasty chip on your shoulder. Guess what....I still do.
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Biker,

Ayr 04/05/2008 16:48:21
Postcrap. You make me laugh, you really do. Nothing of any consiquence eminates from your posts and you just keep repeating the same old bull.
Nomads in Tibet, yeah lets talk some more about that. Deaths from being a nomad are rare but do indeed happen. They tend to move ingroups and are generaly self sufficient. Steal their animals and put them in camps and they generaly dont survive. Especially if the camps are too far from medical centres. HAve a look at even National Geographic for the information my stupid mouthpiece. The evidence is there in abundance. Even better, just lean over the table and ask Mahimaro, he'll keep you right AGAIN. Wally Kanuk
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Mashimaro,

04/05/2008 17:36:31
#166 Urban Gorrila
If you think for one second the boycotts against SA did anything to help the blacks you're sadly sadly mistaken.
But thanks for rallying to the call of communism.
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Browards,

04/05/2008 18:59:08
168 Horrible Cankers

Troll
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Mashimaro,

05/05/2008 03:26:22
Postmark. Dude, I really admire your tenacity in trying to bring some balance and thought to this bunch. I realise now that they have such an extremely narrow view of the world and of course their views and knowledge of the great People's Republic and the Chinese as a nation is severly limited to skewed and often lying western propaganda.
Their reasoning skills are non existant as obviously they have beeb fed a steady diet of BBC home building programmes and American idol. It makes me realise just how far the west has actually fallen, which in a way is quite sad. On the other hand it is good for my people.
You have great energy and I admire that.
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postmark54,

Chongqing, China, 05/05/2008 05:34:52
#173 Mashimaro,
Thanks for the compliment Mashimaro, I've learned a thing or two from you, actually, many things. I will fight for our great country, it has welcomed me with open arms, and it is truly my beloved home. I can see our government doing all that it can to improve life for our citizens, and I greatly admire that.
You're so right when you say that the west is going backwards, it lives for these so called reality shows, which are anything but real. Family values have all but disappeared, street drugs are everywhere, and there's no more respect from the youth towards the adults. It has become a cesspool of problems, and I highly doubt that anyone within this comments section is going to argue those points. The western governments, in the name of Democracy, is walking all over its citizens, but keeps them 'happy' because they have the 'right ' to vote.
I can't help but admire the Chinese government doing the best it can to keep 1.3 billion people living in harmony, where if you dumped this many people in any western country, there would be a 'ree for all' and murders would be taking up every headline in every paper. I will keep up the fight to defend our great country, and we'll fight side by side.
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05/05/2008 13:57:41
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Mashimaro,

China 05/05/2008 15:26:44
It's been very quiet on the Tiananmen question. Jimmy Dee got all upset because I asked him for his opinion. Biker mumbled somethen and peddled off. Anyone? Anyone at all?
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Mashimaro,

China 05/05/2008 17:04:03
#178 Yeah I source all my research stuff from youtube. *eejit*. That is nothing more than pretty badly put together western propaganda. It cleverly uses emotive words and images to paint a picture that doesn't exist. A few carefully placed lies help to complete the image. You know what it doesn't show?
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06/05/2008 01:16:16
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06/05/2008 01:20:39
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Mashimaro,

China 06/05/2008 03:43:47
#181 Deuchars Yeah, I sort of worked that out. But I thought, well, she's not using it to post obscene and racist remarks, maybe I'll throw her a bone.
No one else was willing to show their complete lack of knowledge on Tiananmen, so I have to give her some kudos for that, even though it was not her own idea just something she snagged off youtube.
Pretty sad when everyone wants to use Tiananmen as a big stick to beat China but they don't really know what went on.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 06/05/2008 06:28:33
#182 Mashimaro,Red China - "Pretty sad when everyone wants to use Tiananmen as a big stick to beat China but they don't really know what went on" - But you don't know what went on either because you were not there (you have to be there to know what happened right?).
Nobody is playing your little propaganda game so best you give up - there is no real interest in reading the party line of how the govenment massacred its own citizens.
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Mashimaro,

06/05/2008 07:06:56
#183 Jimmy Dee - the man who doesn't know his own opinion on anything - firstly you don't know whether I was there or not. Second, no you don't you have to have been there to know what happened. You could get reliable witnesses - ask for photographs, use common sense, like "Why would Deng Xiaopeng, who had been offering the students concessions and negotiating with them, trying to resolve the issue - why would he suddenly send in troops to massacre the students." that sort of stuff. It's not rocket science.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 06/05/2008 08:12:05
#184 Mashimaro - This from the man who trots out Communist propaganda. No I do not know if you were there or not but I am guessing not. Right?
The only reliable witnesses are the ones outside the workers' paradise and I have read witness statements on the BBC but then that is just anti-China western imperialist rubbish. Who do I ask for photographs? The Communist Chinese?
""Why would Deng Xiaopeng, who had been offering the students concessions and negotiating with them, trying to resolve the issue - why would he suddenly send in troops to massacre the students." that sort of stuff" -Just because he is your current hero (suppose hero-worshipping Mao gets a bit boring after a while), does not mean he was not capable of brutality (he was a life-long Communist after all). Its not rocket science, its politics and the vicious Communist brand of politics. Politicians the World over say one thing, offer lots of things and then do something else. China is no different but few politicians in the West would send the Army in against their own people using tracked armoured vehicles. As a weapon of "urban pacification", it is something of a sledgehammer.
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Mashimaro,

China 06/05/2008 09:15:40
While I agree with you that the armoured tracked vehicles were a sledgehammer (and really ruined the nice smooth roads) I think you need to realise that China did not have anything else to send. they were not prepared for anything this magnitude.

Regarding Deng, he was a liberal, a visionary who wanted to lead China forward with various reforms. He had fallen foul of the party three times. He was offering the students concessions, which they were unable to decide on. He was negotiating with them. I think you need to look at what else was going on at the time to come to your answer.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 06/05/2008 11:44:28
#186 Mashimaro,Red China - Armoured vehicles ruin the nice smooth roads, to say nothing of the people they crushed (makes such a mess all that blood and it also ruins the tracks). So what you are saying is that China had no choice but to use armoured vehicles (in the dark) because there was no alternative (no riot police and no other agency capable of using non-lethal force to clear the square). They weren't prepared (even though the protests had been going on for weeks).
If you can access this site (and I very much suspect you can't), here is a source of information from the West on the protests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
which in turn has interesting links to other stories such as this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSHKG14616220070606
Deng xiaoping is only a liberal when compared to other hard-line Communist brutes, so "liberal" is a relative term. Khrushchev was more liberal than Stalin but nobody in the West considers him a liberal as such (liberals by and large don't murder thousands as Khrushchev did in the Ukraine). He is your hero but to me just another dead Communist to be mourned only to the extent that he did not see the error of his ways.
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Mashimaro,

China 06/05/2008 13:54:36
#188 from the Reuters article you refer to...
"Hundreds, perhaps thousands, were killed when the army crushed the pro-democracy protests on June 4, 1989."

Not even Reuters dares to claim the lap sap that you guys spout.

Jimmy Dee - Wiki is written by anyone. It is not a clean source. So while you claim students were caught in the tracks of the armoured vehicles, can you provide a single photograph of this? any proof?
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James Donald,

Newbridge 06/05/2008 15:14:18
#191 Mashimaro,Red China - Wikipedia is not exactly "written by anyone" as few if any in the workers paradise can read it let alone contribute.
I could tell you that the proof you require complete with photograps lies on the Wikipedia site but you won't be able to look so no point.
Try this from the US National Security archives:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/index.html
Damn those Yankees and their Freedom of Information Act.
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Mashimaro,

06/05/2008 15:49:57
Jimmy Dee... I don't see any PLA in Tiananmen Square in that lot. You can see them parading down the road, could be any day. No students in sight. Definitly not actually IN Tiananmen.
Oh come on Jimmy Dee, you can do better than that.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 06/05/2008 16:38:13
#193 Mashimaro - You have to read it for the evidence you seek. If you want photos try asking Reuters or better still ask your own government. Remember to send a postcard from your cell.
There are lots of links on the Wikipedia site; why don't you have a look at them?
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06/05/2008 19:31:23
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TSW at the Cyber Shebeen,

06/05/2008 21:18:32
195 & 196 Horrible Cankers the Troll

Do you ever post credible liks?
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06/05/2008 21:47:30
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06/05/2008 21:57:18
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Mashimaro,

China 07/05/2008 07:09:23
Jimmy... your opinion... come on.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 07/05/2008 09:27:13
#200 Mashimaro,Red China - I told you, I don't do requests.
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Mashimaro,

China 07/05/2008 09:32:15
Yeah I understand, Jimmy Dee... you have no opinion except that fed to you by your masters. Hah. Ironic, neh?
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07/05/2008 09:35:26
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James Donald,

Newbridge 07/05/2008 10:08:49
#202 Mashimaro, Red China - Indeed ironic since all your "opinions" seem to be those "fed to you by your masters".
But wait.....Wikipedia is written by anyone, so why don't you edit the story about Tiananmen and give us a more "balanced" view? Come on, bring the glorious truth of the workers' paradise to a desperate World.
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07/05/2008 12:10:03
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Mashimaro,

China 07/05/2008 14:48:05
Dude, I'm a pro. I only write for money.
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TSW at the Cyber Shebeen,

07/05/2008 15:16:56
#197 Should read "Horrible Cankers the Troll, Do you ever post credible links?"

I had a typo should have been "links" not liks

I'm shocked the Horrible Troll has not pounced on me for the typo.
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07/05/2008 15:33:27
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James Donald,

Newbridge 07/05/2008 16:36:49
#206 Mashimaro,Red China - That and that fact that your government will not allow you access to the site. The CCP does not trust its own people not even loyal Communist "trumpet blowers" like you.
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07/05/2008 23:10:52
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Let's have the truth,

Queensland 08/05/2008 02:48:36
Whether or not internet access is allowed in China or the UK for accessing information on long past indiscretions by either country, it does nothing to reduce the guilt of the perpetrators.

Arguing about who can and can't access details about historical savagery either perperated by the UK in its dominions throughout the world or by eg China, that has improved its human rights record far quicker than the UK ever did, is a complete waste of time.

It does nothing to change the past.

Maybe you UK citizens who supposedly hold equality and justice so high should look at not shunning or putting your noses up at some of your own citizens who have different colour skin to you.
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Mashimaro,

China 08/05/2008 05:50:27
#209 Jimmy Dee, I read it. It's quite comprehensive and there are some discrepancies. But it was not the question was it. I didn't ask you if you could find me a link to what someone else thought went on in Tiananmen. I asked you what YOU thought went on in Tiananmen. But I can see that you don't actually know and don't have an opinion unless it is those passed down to you by the zionist owned media. God forbid you should think on your own. Neh?
So much for us not having access here in China.
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Mashimaro,

China 08/05/2008 05:53:21
#211 These dudes still call Myanmar Burma. "I say old chap we got those Burmese blighters under control now eh? Not calling them Myanmar, that'll show them!"
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 11:26:19
#213, yes, Burma, Peking, Ceylon, etc. Those are the English names for such places.

Similarly, we don't call Rome "Roma" or Vienna "Wien".
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Mashimaro,

08/05/2008 12:54:35
#214 so then why can't we call it Rondon eh?
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 14:01:30
#216, of course you can call it Rondon if that's the Chinese pronunciation. We keep our spellings, and you keep yours.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 08/05/2008 16:53:10
#212 Mashimaro,Red China - "I read it" - Sure you did as, like everyone in the workers' paradise, you have unrestricted internet access uncensored by the government. That's right isn't it? That's your story?
Just as you only write for money, I don't do requests for Communist apologists but, as you were not there, you only know about what happened at Tiananmen Square what your government allows you to know.
"God forbid you should think on your own" - I thought all Communists were Godless atheists; better report to your Commissar for some "re-education" through labour.
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08/05/2008 22:50:58
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Mashimaro,

China 09/05/2008 03:44:09
#217 Gee, thanks

#218 Gees, Jimmy, I just said I read it. I'm sorry you have no opinion and nothing to offer this discussion. Just move along now.
Seriously, how old are you - like... four?
Just admit you haven't got a clue as to what happened but you think Tiananmen is a good stick to beat China with.
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James Donald,

Newbridge 09/05/2008 08:08:56
#221 Mashimaro,Red China - "I just said I read it. I'm sorry you have no opinion and nothing to offer this discussion. Just move along now" - Of course you did and I told you, I don't do requests.
"Seriously, how old are you - like... four?" - Old enough to recognise Communist BS when I see it.
"Just admit you haven't got a clue as to what happened" - You first. It is not difficult to find "sticks" to beat Communist China with - evil and oppresive dictatorships just provide so many sticks.
Perhaps you will consider taking your own advice "Just move along now"......
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