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Non-believers should not receive Christian funeral says minister



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Published Date:
10 February 2008
A LEADING Kirk minister has said conducting funerals for non-believers is a time-wasting burden on the church and that non-religious services should be provided by the state.
Rev Johnston McKay, BBC Scotland's former editor of religious broadcasting, said ministers were conducting more than 70 funerals a year and at many of them there was "no interest whatsoever" in the Christian faith.

McKay said one funeral he conduc
ted was marred by constant noise from the congregation, one of whom shouted a stream of swear words before rushing behind the curtain with the coffin.

The minister, writing in the Church of Scotland magazine Life and Work, said state-run funerals would be welcomed by many mourners, who feel their presence in church is "at best inappropriate and at worst hypocritical".

McKay, a minister for 40 years and clerk to the Presbytery of Ardrossan, stressed he would not refuse to conduct a funeral service for a non-believer, but his comments drew criticism from fellow clerics who pointed out it was "not for human beings to decide who is worthy of God's grace".

As the recognised national church, the Church of Scotland routinely conducts parish funerals for all, regardless of their religious beliefs.

McKay wrote: "Families ask for a minister because they know of no other way of marking a life that has ended.

"Very often there is no interest whatsoever in what may be said about what Christian faith believes about death and life after death.

"Funerals are, of course, pastoral opportunities, but I question whether the parish minister is always best placed to provide the sort of genuine care which people need.

"Why do we do it? Most of us because there is no choice. But should there not be choice? The state now provides ways for couples to be married without benefit of clergy. Why should the state not provide the means by which funerals can be conducted without benefit of religion also? My suspicion is that it would be welcomed by many who are all too aware of what is at best inappropriate and at worst hypocritical in their appearing to assent to convictions they do not share and a faith they do not believe."

McKay said one of the ministers in his presbytery conducted as many as 129 funerals services in one year, and elsewhere an average of 60 or 70 was common. He said: "There are lots of other churches of different denominations in Ardrossan.

"None of the ministers at these churches is obliged to host a funeral for someone who is not a member of their congregation. I am. Why in the name of Heaven in this ecumenical age should we not all be involved in this?"

He recalled one funeral in particular as an example of the futility of holding a Christian service for those who did not want to hear the word of God.

He said: "There was a constant hubbub of conversation, nobody listened to what I was saying and when we got to the funeral the underlying noise was greater. When I came to the words of committal during a prayer one of the mourners stood up, shouted a stream of expletives and then rushed behind the curtains as they closed the coffin."

He concluded: "Later that day I saw no reason whatsoever, other than my obligation as a minister in the parish, to have been involved with that, or, I have to say, many other funerals I have had to take."

Kirk minister Rev Fiona Mathieson said McKay's views went against the church's guiding tenets. The minister of Edinburgh's Carrick Knowe Church said: "If we take the view that we will not work with some people then are we not going against the articles declaratory?

"They state that it is the church's call and duty to bring the ordinances of religion to the people in every parish of Scotland through a territorial ministry. It is part of the mystery of the Christian faith that it is not for human beings to decide who is worthy of God's grace and who is not."

A Church of Scotland said: "As the national church part of our mission is to serve the whole territory of Scotland and the people within it. Everyone who lives here lives within a particular parish and is entitled to approach their local church in connection with the funeral of their nearest and dearest."

Ron McLaren, the national secretary for the Humanist Society of Scotland, said: "In the past year we have overseen more than 2,000 services in Scotland which is a huge rise from a couple of hundred just a few years ago."

Modern ways of saying goodbye

INCREASING numbers of people are deciding that traditional church funerals are not for them.

The growing demand for alternative send-offs has led one British businesswoman to launch Natural Endings, a company that specialises in unusual funerals.

The Manchester-based firm offers a service that turns ashes into diamonds or blasts them into the heavens inside fireworks.

It also offers environmentally friendly coffins made from bamboo, willow, paper or cardboard. Natural Endings offers bikers the chance to ride to their funeral in a specially converted motorbike and sidecar hearse.

Funeral director Rosie Grant said: "We believe funeral choices should be led by families' beliefs, values, tastes and lifestyle.

"Alternative funerals can help with the grieving process and be more comforting."

But turning your loved one into a diamond doesn't come cheap – it costs about £12,000.





The full article contains 928 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 February 2008 7:42 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Church of Scotland
 
1

Roberta Burns,

10/02/2008 00:34:08
Nice one, meenister. Last year I attended a humanist funeral service and it was great. Everyone agreed, especially those who had never attended one before. It's the way forward
2

,

10/02/2008 00:42:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Dennis Skinner,

Ball's Over 10/02/2008 01:37:43
#2,Ross Fyffe,Scotland 10/02/2008 00:42:14

"non believers should be dumped in the sea or the nearest big hole with no ceremony when they die. The sooner the better ............."

Good idea, Ross. In what are YOU a non-believer?
4

Punta Prima,

BALERNO 10/02/2008 01:38:19
#2 Ross, What a muppet you are. It makes no difference whether you are atheist, christian or muslim where you bury or dump the body. Most beliefs believe that the body is only a shell to carry the soul.
5

Senga Jean,

Scotland 10/02/2008 02:01:55
To coin a phrase I hope to hell I do not receive a Christian funeral. I think they lack love and charity (see all above) The Humanist Association however are much more caring and considerate.
6

Willie Macleod,

Wick 10/02/2008 02:41:47
#5 Well said Senga Jean. #2 Ross Fyffe A big hole will do me fine.
7

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 10/02/2008 02:56:13
Exactly my point, its just a shell, as far as I am concerned after any usuful organs are harvested my shell could be made into dog food for all I care.

PS do any of you know which family in the world profits most from "western" "Christian" funerals and cremations :-)
8

Sinead,

Tanunda 10/02/2008 05:24:31
typical "wee free" attitude.
9

rawhide ,

Glasgow 10/02/2008 05:48:45
A bin liner and into the clyde will do me .
Funerals are a rip off anyway.
10

jaxxin,

baku 10/02/2008 07:17:03
what sad people you, now we have a minister telling us he is wasting his time burying people. if so then he should quit . we do not need a Kirk minister telling the good people what we should or should not believe in. im saddened by the way things are in scotland these days after living abroad for 10 years
11

Media 1,

cape town 10/02/2008 07:42:38
I agree with the minister! If you pray, cultivate and worship the entity who murdered Egyptian babies, sent plagues and asked or human sacrifice, then surely you must be buried by his people!
But if youre a person who views murder and violence with contempt, if youre a person who is more inclined to respect your kids and raise your children without indoctrinating their minds with religious bile, then you should be entitled to avoid a church funeral. I have always thought that a government funeral system should be put in place, thus removing the church's monopoly on death and their promise of some heavenly nirvana with some big man in the sky! In fact, if the state was involved in burial and there no ceremony, just a few words by the people who mattered, then the church services would dwindle to almost none! People are moving away from the god myth and its about time.
12

Jock's Away,

Victoria Africa 10/02/2008 08:02:11
Looks like the good minister has a conflict, 70 funerals versus a nice little BBC earner. More money in christening and weddings. If he and his church buddies are caring less for the living it is no surprise it is difficult to care for the dead. The competition for the souls of modern man is hotting up, with videos, Cable TV, Sports, holidays, and all thing material. The here and now is taking priority over the here after. Funerals are primarily for the benefit of the living, Disposal of human remains is a social hygiene and health issue. Right or wrong age old norms are being eroded, this the minister will see in his congregation or lack there of, and the sale of church premises. Get working on it or get use to it, or another job.
13

Media 1,

cape town 10/02/2008 08:06:58
I would like to see a state grave yard seperate from a church grave yard! That way we could have on grave yard for those who did not follow the god entity and one for those people who did..It be better to visit a grave yard that had no silly corsses and religious symbolism scattered all over the place.
14

Pocket Dictionary,

10/02/2008 08:13:39
Take away the hype and the sensationalism of this article and the minister actually has a point.
Exchange Christian for Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist etc. No one would expect a funeral from those faiths if they didn't follow them.
What would be the point of a Muslim cleric saying that the deceased is now in paradise if s/he wasn't a Muslim?
Same goes for the Christian faith. It's no big deal and it has already been pointed out there are other options.
15

Boy Wonder,

10/02/2008 09:16:05
He's right of course ... and less work for the ministers and priests will help consign the whole edifice of religious nonsense into the dustbin of history where it belongs!
My death ceremony has been planned for a long time and not one clerical collar will be in sight! I'me putting the FUN back into funeral! All Charlie Drake's old hits will be played, along with Bernard Cribbens, Lance Percival and Alvin and the Chipmunks! Then there will be an open mic section, for those who want to praise or persecute me, then as my coffin goes to the incinerator, They're Coming To Take Me Away Ha-Ha will be played, and then everyone will bu&&er off to the pub to raise a glass in my memory. And the more swearing the better! :D Now THAT'S the way to do it!!!
16

Boy Wonder,

10/02/2008 09:18:40
#13l Media1 ... Cemeteries will become a thing of the past as the land will soon be required for office space, a mall or housing!

Plant a tree with a small plaque for your loved one. That'll be a good living memorial!
17

Max Born,

10/02/2008 09:22:04
Speaking as a lapsed agnostic.......blah ........blah.......blah
18

Mikey,

10/02/2008 09:33:44
Errr, why would non believers WANT a Xtian funeral?
19

Roy,

10/02/2008 09:49:18
I've been at too many funerals of non-believers that have been hi-jacked by ministers. Ministers shouldn't be allowed at the funerals of non-believers.
20

agatha,

10/02/2008 09:55:38
Roy, you have been at much more exciting funerals than I have - ministers actually came in and hi-jacked the funerals! Did they have explosives strapped to them?

Or were they invited by the family to take the funeral by any chance?
21

albanman,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 10:02:53
Folks: just ignore No.2 (RossFyffe). He regularly makes ignorant - and often insensitive - comments. I think he has only 2 brain cells, both of which are fighting with each other.

As for the issue at hand, why would a non-believer's family want a relgious funeral? It's hypocritical. Yet, many non-believers want church weddings because they "look pretty", so maybe for some folk a church funeral adds dignity. I totally empathise with the minister who's annoyed at the lack of respect from some of the congregation; if you're going to have a church service, respect the environment or go somewhere else. Having said that, a religious service is a good opportunity for a priest/minister to reach out to those in attendance, relgious or otherwise. It's a tough call especially in our society where many people are quite anti-religious.

Regarding fees: a fee is normally levied through the funeral home; in Edinburgh it's 60 pounds, but in the Falkirk area it's only 40. I've no idea as to why this is the case. The fee is the same regardless of whether the sevice is Christian, Humanist or otherwise and is not set by the member of clergy.

No.13, our man from S.A.: church graveyards in Scotland are few and far between; most cemeteries are owned by muncipalities or private companies which set their own rules as to what is permitted. Why should religious symbols be banned? Don't you believe in freedom in S.A.?
22

Unimpressed one,

10/02/2008 10:05:51
Should the church not be more appreciative that at least they might be perceived by more people as doing something useful rather than spouting the usual drivel. Perhaps they should consider their position re weddings as well. Then within a decade or two church attendance will be even further reduced.
23

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 10:24:02
I would have thought that a decision like that would be made by God or Jesus no one of their mail room staff.
24

Encephalon,

10/02/2008 10:49:04
I would like the Viking longship burning at sea.....to get me ready for the heat!
25

Dragonlord,

10/02/2008 10:55:33
9# You can afford a bin liner??? Wow I am impressed.:-)
26

Mcsnagpile,

10/02/2008 10:57:57
Funerals are for the living. The dead do not attend.
I do enjoy a good traditional Buddhist –Chinese funeral with the processions and drums, sometimes a brass band. The spirit of the old should continue in the living as we struggle to make sense of this continuing, meaningless cyclic existence. The only thing that means anything in life is feelings. The rest is an empty metal box.

Do we leave a carbon footprint in the sky if we are cremated?
27

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 10/02/2008 11:13:56
What the Rev Johnson Mckay doesnie seem to understand is that just because somebody doesnie see the church as representative of God or Jesus doesnie mean they are non believers. You can believe in God and Jesus but no the Church. In fact I think that is a sensible view on religion.
Since when has the so called Christian church ever represented the teachings of Christ? they certainly ignored the bit aboot surrounding themselves with the trappings of material wealth and loving thy neighbour.
28

tattie bogle,

home 10/02/2008 11:18:41
i knew that certificate from the beer church(internet) would come in handy
29

Gothic Rose,

10/02/2008 11:22:17
No comment from Pilrig, with his,"Jesus wants me for a sunbeam"?
30

Neil,

Glasgow 10/02/2008 14:42:30
Don't overwork the poor dears. One day a week is enough. Zero might be better.
31

Maria,

www.thinkhumanism.com 10/02/2008 14:43:22
Aren't funeral ceremonies really for the bereaved rather than the deceased? It may not make a difference to a non-believer what happens after they're dead but funeral ceremonies serve an important function in helping people come to terms with the loss of their loved one. What isn't widely realised is that there is no need to have a minister or celebrant of any kind conduct a funeral ceremony. If family members or friends feel able to plan and conduct the ceremony themselves, they should do so because it results in a ceremony that is more special and meaningful. The book 'Funerals without God' available from the British Humanist Association was written specifically for this purpose. By the way, the author of this book points out that non-religious funerals should be called ceremonies not 'services' (as the Scottish humanist bloke called them). The word service in this context traditionally means 'service to God'!
32

Humanist Celebrant,

Aberdeenshire 10/02/2008 15:19:01
Although a Humanist, I have attended many funerals in churches and treated the proceedings with respect. I wish I could say that all ceremonies I have conducted as a celebrant have been treated in the same manner.

One such was for a much loved man who, along with his adult children, had requested a secular ceremony. His brother spoke movingly during the ceremony about his brother, but then proceeded to do what he said he felt was 'appropriate' - he prayed. Aloud and at length.

His unwanted and inappropriate contribution upset some mouners and traumatised the celebrant! Impossible, for decorum's sake, to interrupt or object.

Single-handed, this prayerful gentleman disrupted the entire timetable at the crematorium. Families were left waiting in the cold for access to the chapel in which we were vastly over-running our allotted time. Meanwhile the time-table of the second chapel ran as planned but now out of kilter with the first. Consequently at least one other celebrant then found herself due to be speaking in two chapels at the same time...... Funeral directors, crematorium staff and mourners of several families were all in various stages of trauma.

Why should the wishes of the deceased be given such short shrift, especially by a loving brother?

Why do 'believers' feel that they have the right to ride roughshod over the feelings of those who do not share their beliefs?



33

saneatheist,

Shetland 10/02/2008 16:18:59
Very good posts Maria (31)
And Humanist Celebrant (32)

The only thing I fear following my death is that I am inadvertantly given a religious send off, {{shudders}}
34

Augusta,

Perthshire 10/02/2008 16:43:19
The Church of Scotland should conduct all funerals -
it's theologically sound to have the dead burying the
dead.
35

Media 1,

cape town 10/02/2008 16:46:14
It would be great if those who worship and cultivate the god entity had their own grave yards, and the rest of us had our own!
36

,

10/02/2008 16:48:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Bella Donna,

10/02/2008 16:58:45
#36 I have no idea what point you were trying to make in your post - was there one?

I think the minister's quite right - if Christians want a Christian funeral then let them have one. And those who don't want one, have a humanist one - what's the big deal?

I've been to a couple of humanist funerals which were personal, sensitive and were more about the person deceased than anything else. It was clear that the family and their wishes were the primary focus.

The Christian funerals I've been to have been more about God than the deceased, quite what the comfort for the family burying their loved one was, I could never fathom. The services were impersonal and anonymous.

I'll have a funeral based on MY beliefs thanks.
38

Gina Gibson,

Wales 10/02/2008 17:29:25
#2 Ross Fyffe If you want dead bodies to be dumped in a big empty hole then perhaps you should stick them in the space between your ears!!
39

,

10/02/2008 17:30:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Bella Donna,

10/02/2008 17:47:34
#39, you're right, your capitalising IS "Grate"-ing.

And I still have no idea what point you're trying to make. No, don't try and explain, I doubt I'd fathom that post out either.
41

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow. 10/02/2008 19:28:20
Rev Mckay is quite right.So why do ministers do it?
I have attended Humanist funeral services and found them to be more in keeping with the situation than the usual religious claptrap which means nothing to most people nowadays.
42

Pilrig.,

Livingston 10/02/2008 19:37:59
29 - Jesus luvs ya baby !

seriously, it wont trouble me I was christened in the Kirk, married in the Kirk and my funeral service will be according to the forms of the Kirk.
Only prob the wife wants burial, so I'll have to go along with that, but prefer my ashes were scattered on the Gala Water.
43

Geminate,

Here 10/02/2008 22:09:59

If one desires that someone should be buried as would be a Christian, then the price for the service, not including coffin, plot or marker - just a service and/or viewing with some words said, should be $5,000.00 USD per funeral, paid by the friends and/or relatives to the church in advance. Being buried as a Christian or not, does not make any difference whatsoever. If you are a Christian and you are buried in a non-religious ceremony, you are still a child of God. If you are not a Christian and you are buried as a Christian you are still not a child of God and you are going to Hell. Let's say in the last minutes of your life you see the light and then believe on God for your salvation, it still doesn't matter how you are disposed of, ceremony or not, God knows who are the sheep and who are the goats and will judge accordingly.
44

,

10/02/2008 22:30:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

Amparo de Glasgow,

10/02/2008 22:43:25
#15
Boy Wonder ...

Glad there is another card-carrying Atheist like you here ...!!!

I thought I was the only person to genuinely loath and detest this religious b*llsh*t ...!!

Good post mate ...

Though yer choice of comedians ...
Excuse me ??

...hmmmm !!!
46

Branko,

Alloa 11/02/2008 17:48:24
I won't have a funeral at all. As a graduate of Glasgow Uni I shall leave my corpse to the Anatomy Dept for the medical students to use.

I have also been to 2 humanist funerals in the last couple of years and I didn't know beforehand that the deceased were humanists. I can honestly say that they were the most uplifting funerals I have ever been to. There was no claptrap about the life to come, no drivelling about how much god luvs ya baby and both ceremonies were marked by tears ... of laughter. Also the celebrant, although having never met the families before, demonstrated a much greater understanding of the person being remembered and celebrated.

Religious funerals - forget it ; they belong to history as does religion itself... and don't get me started on the Ayatollah of Westminster, although I have to say he is doing a very fine job of destroying the church of England, so maybe it's better that he stays.

 

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