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No need to purge Cabinet of Scots – Straw



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Published Date: 02 June 2008
JACK Straw, the Justice Secretary, hit back yesterday after calls from Labour MPs for Gordon Brown to replace the Scots in his Cabinet with English politicians.
Mr Straw, who has been named as a possible replacement for the beleaguered Prime Minister, said there were "plenty" of "English people – true-born Englishmen and women" in the Cabinet and there was no need for any changes.

The Justice Secretary was responding to suggestions from two back-benchers who have become worried that the number of Scots in Mr Brown's Cabinet is harming Labour's chances in England.

Stephen Ladyman, a former roads minister who is MP for the marginal constituency of Thanet South, said: "It is important to recognise that the election is won or lost in England. We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."

And Lindsay Hoyle, the MP for Chorley, said: "Voters are looking to see a better balance within the Cabinet to ensure that all the regions of England are represented."

Keith Vaz, a member of Labour's national executive committee and chairman of the Commons home affairs committee, also raised the issue of the vacant deputy prime minister's job and called for Mr Straw, an Englishman, to be given the role.

Labour MPs have become increasingly worried about their chances of political survival at the next election and some believe that Mr Brown's "Scottishness" does not play well with some English voters.

There has also been concern over what has been termed the "Scottish McMafia" around the Prime Minister, the number of Scottish Cabinet ministers and advisers around Mr Brown. But these complaints have been largely kept private, until now.

It is a sign of how worried some Labour MPs are, that such views have now been declared publicly.

One poll last week put Labour at its lowest level since polling began in 1943 with 23 per cent.

Caledonian connections

THERE are 23 members of the UK Cabinet, four of whom are Scottish and represent Scottish constituencies.

This represents 17.4 per cent of the total Cabinet when Scotland accounts for about 9 per cent of the UK population. They are:

1 Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister and MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

2 Alistair Darling, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and MP for Edinburgh South West.

3 Des Browne, Scottish Secretary and Defence Secretary, and the MP for Kilmarnock and Loudoun.

4 Douglas Alexander, International Develop-ment Secretary, MP for Paisley/Renfrewshire South.




The full article contains 421 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 June 2008 9:41 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/06/2008 23:48:26

Are there any lawyers on this thread ?

If so, please can I have some legal advise?

Is it legally possible to report Stephen Ladyman to the police for inciting racial hatred?

With all due respect to those from minorities where sexuality, disability or ethnic origin are legally protected from abuse, I suspect that if some idiot like Ladyman were to say there are too many gay people, or disabled people in the Cabinet he would be quite rightly hauled off in the awaiting police vehicle in Downing Street.

So why can Ladyman abuse Scots in such a way ?

The fact that they may not be the most competent Scots in the UK is neither here nor there. The fact that the majority of Scots would like to see many of the Scottish Cabinet Members out of office is also neither here nor there.

The issue is Stephen Ladyman is a racist biggot.
2

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 02/06/2008 00:04:14
Wow.

First rising fuel duty and tax.

And now MP's are being racist against Scots?

The Union has had its day.

Bring on Independence.
3

Arrow,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 00:07:04
And Lindsay Hoyle, the MP for Chorley, said: "Voters are looking to see a better balance within the Cabinet to ensure that all the regions of England are represented." by England one supposes this ignorant MP really means the whole of the UK?

swop "Scottish"for "black", "catholic", "muslim" "jewish" and you see how bloody racist some of the comments are.

if you were a left handed, black irish catholic who converted to judaism nae chance of becoming a labour MP
4

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 02/06/2008 00:19:02
Whether they are Scottish or English is irrelevant. All four are incompetent.

What is relevant is English MPs debating and voting on English issues, i.e. a separate parliament.

This is the Labour Party in meltdown. Once it starts, there's no stopping it. Brown will be humiliated at the next election, then Miliband will become the new Labour leader thereafter.

5

gerad,

greenock 02/06/2008 00:47:56
#Arrow,edinburgh
What the hell is with you that thinks us left handed, black Irish catholics who have converted to Judaism would want to be Liebour MPs. Don't you think we have it hard enough as it is.
6

Mercian,

UK 02/06/2008 00:52:35
These comments by Stephen Ladyman and Lindsay Hoyle are distasteful. They play right into the hands of seperatists in the UK. I also think they are wrong about the majority of English people's view; certainly, any Scottish reduction in the cabinet isn't going to change who the public will vote for - except may be for Brown himself, but that won't be because he is Scottish.

The English are very use to Scottish people in their communites. There are plenty of popular Scottish celebrities. The the government is unpopular everywhere in the UK, for several other reasons....
7

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 00:53:17
Unfortunately these men give us all a bad name......
8

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 01:06:47
I think the term Scottish Mafia is detrimental and discriminating. Too much. And I do not think the cabinet need be 100% English. I believe the Scots on the cabinet would be more balancing.
9

,

02/06/2008 01:09:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
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10

,

02/06/2008 01:10:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

Senga Jean,

02/06/2008 01:20:58
I am ashamed to be British!..........Oh no I'm not.....I am Scottish And the British (sub text "English") can manage well enough without my clever little compatriots. lets quickly move on ....to INDEPENDENCE.
12

Mercian,

UK 02/06/2008 01:24:17
#9 Donald Mc Google

I wouldn't think my argument is on "shakey ground" due to anti-Scottish comments made in cyberspace. Haven't you noticed how the web is full of nutters hiding behind keyboards?
13

Jwil,

02/06/2008 01:25:33

The English MPs are correct. There are too many Scots in the government. You wouldn't expect see France being run by Americans or English people would you? I believe Scotland would get a fairer hearing from Westminster if Brown, Darling and Browne went, along with their Scottish cronies. At the moment they are treating Scots with contempt, as if they had some god given right to do so!


One good thing that may have come of this is that Darling gets kicked out of office.
14

,

02/06/2008 01:46:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

ChinaBear,

Hong Kong 02/06/2008 02:06:42
I love the shouts of racist coming from this thread, most of whom have been abusing the English on a daily basis for years. If the cap fits......

For one minute lets just imagine that two seperate groups of people can get together, be happy with their nationality and work as a team and use their respective strengths in both sets of interests. The fact is that Britain was at it's most successful when that was happening.
16

Royster,

02/06/2008 02:13:24
It's racism pure and simple. The fault lies with devolution which is a failed policy. We should only have one parliament.
17

Royster,

02/06/2008 02:13:31
It's racism pure and simple. The fault lies with devolution which is a failed policy. We should only have one parliament.
18

Royster,

02/06/2008 02:13:52
It's racism pure and simple. The fault lies with devolution which is a failed policy. We should only have one parliament.
19

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 02:21:33
14
Up to 12 now?
There's dedication.
20

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 02:23:36
16, 17, 18

Totally right Royster.And we soon will have:-)
21

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 02:25:59
Royster, if you get the error page just go back,then refresh.
22

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/06/2008 02:31:30
There are no groups, there are however 2 Different Countries, in a relationship whitch has gone passed it's sell by date. SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE is the only answer to these TROUBLED ISLANDS. There will be no arguements thereafter.
23

Singlepoint,

Fife 02/06/2008 02:45:06
Now, let’s see; the parliament is the UK parliament but Scots are not allowed to be ministers. If that were carried out it would be to dissolve the Union. I could easily live with that not least because by Scots law Scotland would then own 95% of the North Sea oil revenue which in effect would give us a rock solid currency: likely the hardest in the world; at a time when the US dollar is weakening as would the English pound weaken in those circumstances. We’d of course need rational, prudent leaders and an honest, non-affiliated judiciary, which is to sadly say, every silver lining has a cloud. Ah well, it was a nice thought while it lasted.
24

Saltire,

Thailand 02/06/2008 02:47:14
#15 ChinaBear
Of course what you say is right and it is nothing to be proud of.
But what we see now is what has been concealed in the past by an English based media - the English are exactly the same as the Scots in their attitudes to each other. They are imbued with the same ignorance about each other.
The more this situation develops the more we will see the balance changing in England. In the past Labour has relied on Scottish votes to win elections. Now they can have no confidence about that happening again and they need to chase English votes. With continuing anti-Scottish sentiment in England it does seem crazy to have a predominantly Scottish government.
When the 2 groups of people worked together in the past it was because the Scots had no alternative and had to put up with being treated as second class citizens in their own country.
Now things have changed and the Scots have an alternative future where they can, for better or for worse, be in control of their own lives.
25

Jimmy the Pie,

02/06/2008 02:57:48
Scotland being independent would solve all this at a stroke.

Roll on the day.
26

Scottish not British,

Awaiting Independence 02/06/2008 03:57:17
So in a nutshell we can pay UK taxes and have all the responsibilities and even vote but we can't be in power? That is pretty messed up, but its nothing compared with what the press in England want. I am in no doubt that these will be the same people who will complain long and loud when they get the Tories and there are a bunch of Old Etonians in power. These racists should shut up and be glad that in the next couple of years we'll be independent and they won't have Scots in their parliament because we'll be running our own nation free of outside interference. They all banged on about getting Maggie Broon into power before the last election, now he's there they aren't happy with that either. This proves that the Union is not united and is basically a joke, which stopped being funny a long time ago.
Perhaps they are beginning to realise that this is the situation we have had to endure for 300 years and that it's not so much fun to be ruled by people not from your own country.
27

Arthur C,

singapore 02/06/2008 04:28:24
well said #15. There is a lot more anti-english sentiment in scotland than there is anti-scottish sentiment in england.
I lived in london for 6 years and made and still have have a lot of good english friends. The problem now is that, with the creation of the scottish parliament the english feel aggreived that scottish MPs at westminster decide english policy, policy in areas that in scotland is covered by the scottish parliament. This anomaly is obviously highlighted by scottish cabinet ministers and in light of this, Middle England would probably prefer to hear policy initiatives from an english MP rather a Scottish MP.
This is what Ladyman is trying to say.
I voted for the scottish parliament but now wish that I hadn't, the relationship between scotland and england seems to be degenerating. People mention oil as the reason why we are being taken advantage of by the english. Give me a choice between a couple of decades more in oil revenues or the london financial services industry and I take the london financial services industry any time !
28

Royster,

02/06/2008 04:39:42
Shut Holyrood and hold a referendum on independence.
29

izzie,

dundee 02/06/2008 05:38:45
as the former colonials said 'no taxation without representation' could it be that get the jocks out campaign will finally open our eyes to the contempt with which we are viewed by our so called partner in this union?
30

Guga II,

Rockall 02/06/2008 06:01:18
"We need to have English voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in English communities."

Well we need Scottish voices speaking and giving messages that make sense in Scottish communities.

"Voters are looking to see a better balance within the Cabinet to ensure that all the regions of England are represented."

Well we are looking to see a better balance within the Cabinet to ensure that all the regions of Scotland are represented.

The only way to ensure that the English can represent their people, as per the above quotations, and that the Scots can represent their people is by the break up of this archaic and defunct Union.

If the English want the Westminster parliament to be run by Englishmen, that's fine, but we want to be independent from them. We do not want to remain as a colony being exploited by the English, nor do we wish to continue to subsidise the English.

It is also time that the craven and deluded Scots who continue to support the English government and its treatment of Scotland and the Scots as some sort of inferior colony, to be exploited and used to subsidise the English, woke up to themselves. Their attitude towards allowing, even encouraging the exploitation of their own country is closely akin to treason.

Scotland awake. Freedom now.
31

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 02/06/2008 06:20:28
27 Arthur- The problem is a British/English parliament. If the Union is to continue there must be an English parliament and a British parliament. This should have been recognised before Ireland broke away. How slow is the thinking in Westminister?
32

An Beal Bacht,

02/06/2008 06:29:47
The world is at a crossroads. Change, in one form or another, is coming. Today Scotland is at the confluence of events of historical importance. Are we a nation?
33

Colin Wilson,

02/06/2008 06:57:59
"And Lindsay Hoyle, the MP for Chorley, said: "Voters are looking to see a better balance within the Cabinet to ensure that all the regions of England are represented."

That isn't a bad idea. But it would need to be done by having secretaries of state for these places, not by excluding particular categories of people from the Cabinet.
34

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 02/06/2008 07:06:52
What needs to be said!
35

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 07:10:46
The Federal option will solve such problems. GB will then consist of a dozen States based upon ancient kingdoms, each with equal Federal rights and representation, and with huge State autonomy. Think USA/Canada/Australia and other successful federations.
36

Louis Catorze,

02/06/2008 07:36:28
"..You wouldn't expect see France being run by Americans or English people would you?"

Well no #13, but as these Scots are British, sitting in the British parliament, it's hardly a very clever comparison, is it?
37

Itchy,

02/06/2008 07:45:38
Reduce the number of Scottish MPs at Westminster to zero.

That will solve the problem.
38

Itchy,

02/06/2008 07:47:33
"This anomaly is obviously highlighted by scottish cabinet ministers and in light of this, Middle England would probably prefer to hear policy initiatives from an english MP rather a Scottish MP.
This is what Ladyman is trying to say."

Ladyman is an idiot and so are you.

The problem is not the number of Scots in the cabinet but the idiotic policies produced by the party.
39

BIG EYE,

Paisley 02/06/2008 07:52:58
Even better send 59 SNP's down there after the next general election and start moving ou the furniture!
40

LEAL,

02/06/2008 07:59:26
Its doubtful if any of the "Scottish" cabinet members will be able to hang onto their seats at the next general election.The labour party are so hard up now that they may not even be in existence come the next election.Do the unions actually have the money to bail them out?
41

eric,

lothian 02/06/2008 08:16:01
Those oppinons arent isolated down south.they know if they vote tory they have someone to fight englands corner against scots.
42

brownlie,

02/06/2008 08:20:01
35 Rules

There is one significant draw-back to your idea of federalism - no-one is interested in it.

If you ever read other postings on here you will note that, apart from your good self and one other - your alter ego, perhaps - no posters show any enthusiasm for the idea.

You, also, pontificate on LVT, which again has generated no interest whatsoever.

Perhaps it is time you had a re-think and looked for a realistic alternative to the status quo.
43

cabrach loon,

inverness 02/06/2008 08:21:43
Funny though I had always been led to believe that Westminster would be Tory if it were not for the Labour Scots MP's!
On the other hand the comments quoted as such were pure racism of a nasty sort. Where has Britain gone?
44

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 02/06/2008 08:23:24
There is no way we want that dross back up here, they should be left 'down the well' to poison New labour, and allow a competent party to relieve the whole of the UK from this apology for a government. Bring on the election Gordon!
45

,

02/06/2008 08:27:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

salmond spray,

Livingston 02/06/2008 08:29:10
the quicker we get independence the better,as it will be the english who will decide the date, probably around the time the oil has run out
47

,

02/06/2008 08:33:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

Hugo of Garven,

02/06/2008 08:39:33
The sensible solution is for England to have its own parliament.

BTW one poster referred to a 'true born Englishman, can anyone tell me what a 'true born Englishman' is?
49

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 08:47:01
#49 McMadman.

You ask, I reply

1. You already are legally both Scottish and British.

2. Most of the then Britain was NOT inder an ice sheet 30k years ago, or later. As explained, ice lowered the sea level vy at least 100 feet. That left an inhabitable area about twice the size of GB today. That's where my ancestors prospered.

3. At no time evr has Scotland been a nation as now understood. Check this for yourself by listing ALL the requirements for a nation, and then try ticking them off. For starters, until Union even the borders weren't agreed on (and Orkney/Shetland are very reluctant Scots still, and may well bail out after independence).

4. List valid faults with LVT, please. I suspect you haven't grasped it. Try Wiki for help.


#43 Brownlie. A prophet is often without honour in his own land! Smart guys said Galileo was mad and that iron ships couldn't float. Dwell on it!
50

BK,

Cyberspace 02/06/2008 08:56:40
Remove the Londoner Alistair Darling from your list. He is not Scottish.
51

Publius,

London 02/06/2008 08:58:42
Scots are more influential than 4 cabinet posts would suggest. What about Speaker - 'let's hide the expenses' Martin. And what about Steve - 'let's get the toff and lose the by-election - McCabe?
52

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/06/2008 09:04:04
Its known as the "English backlash" and should surprise no one who knows how corrosive an influence nationalism can be. The SNP continue to stir the proverbial s**t whenever it suits them and the continual taunting of the rest of the UK, excepting of course the Welsh and Irish, is a national disgrace. Salmond continually derides the union within the peoples of the British Isles yet he's quick to cosy up to the Irish and Welsh politicians which just goes to show he simply wants to be a bigger fish in a smaller pool (call it a Celtic Union or whatever). The mans an imposter and the sooner Scots waken up to the reality of it all the sooner we can get on with making decisions that affect peoples day to day lives instead of the pie in the sky promises from the nationalists.
53

brownlie,

02/06/2008 09:04:51
51 Rules

"A prophet is often without honour in his own land"

No false modesty there then? I'm not sure about your gifts of prophecy but I would query your powers of reasoning.

In your posting at 35 you state "GB will then consist of different states based on ancient kingdoms ...". You then go on to say at 51 that "Scotland has never been a nation". What happened to the ancient "kingdom"?

You say "Think USA/Canada/Australia". Which ancient kingdoms do they base their different states on?
54

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/06/2008 09:08:52
~43 - Re Federalism - you are so wrong. Just because the regular contributors to this column don't want to debate the benefits a federal solution to the UK would bring doesn't mean the benefits will not be fully understood when explained properly. There are very many good examples and in time the UK will become another - why, because the alternatives are destructive whereas federalism is constructive in that it recognises regional differences and needs.
55

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:09:29
All these arguments about a 'Scotia Nostra' running the U.K. State only serves to weaken the Union!

Many hardline Unionists want to abolish the Scotland and Wales Acts and return to a centralised British State? Yet they forget that the FIRST devolved government in the U.K. was at Stormont!

After Partition, the Imperial British Government for military, political and then geographic reasons had no hesitation in creating the original gerry-mandered Northern Ireland Parliament along Westminster lines with an Upper House, the Senate, and a Lower House, the Commons.

Like every other undemocratic legislature in history it eventually came tumbling down and after a 30 year violent interregnum has been replaced with ANOTHER Devolved Assembly for ALL the people of Northern Ireland.

Many want to return to a 20th Century centralised British State but do not realise that it is long Gone With The Wind!

This unitary state is only acceptable to the English as long as they are governing it! IF, the English still cannot come to terms with a few Scots (Welsh or Irish) running the government then what hope is there for the future of the U.K.?

IF, any attempt is ever made to amend, restrict or abolish the powers of the Scottish Parliament all these arguments will count for nothing becAuse there can only be one inevitable outcome!
56

brownlie,

02/06/2008 09:11:33
54 Liberal

Perhaps Salmond should go against personal and political principles and "cosy up" to New Labour in the same way as the Libs did to be "big fish in a smaller pool" - call it the Lib/Lab pact.

Despite their opposition to the Iraqi invasion they chose to put privileges ahead of principles by propping up New Labour, the instigators of the invasion, in their governance of Scotland.
57

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:12:29
#56 Liberal for Life.

Thank you for your comment!
58

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 02/06/2008 09:13:20
I joined the SNP in 1953 and have been waiting ever since to see an independent Scotland. The problem isn't Scots in Westminster; it's the bedwetters in Scotland who dithered and fiddled whenever they had the chance to do something. So, long ago, I gave up and left, and at my age it's unlikely that I'll ever set foot in Scotland again. I now live in British Columbia, where the second biggest national group is the Scots, very few of whom would give up their comfortable homes and lives to return to live in Scotland.

So I guess my request is, "Waken me if anything happens", because after reading the daily posts about independence, I am constantly reminded of a Gaelic proverb: "Is ladarna gach cù air a shitig fhèin - Every dog is bold on his own midden" amd I am fed up listening to the barking. As they say in Canada, *hit or get off the pot!
59

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 09:15:27
51 Rulesbutnotrulers,
What a load of flaming tosh.
How can I be legally Scottish if Scotland never existed as a nation?
Scotland's international borders were recognised by the international Treaty Of Edinburgh-Northampton 1328.
Prior to 1707 the nation had its own languages, legal system, currency, national flag, monarchy, aristocracy, armed forces and football team(courtesy of Mary Queen of Scots).
It admittedly was not a member of the League of Nations, the UN, NATO or the EU. Prior to World War I neither could anyone else. It became a member by recognised international treaty of the United Kingdom of Great Britain the forerunner to all of those organisations.

The keyword here being inter-national.

Ice ages? The last one was the Devensian glaciation around 10,000 years ago years ago. Doggerland linking Britain to mainland europe was inundated between 5k5-8k years ago resulting in what are now recognised as the British isles.
By its very nature glaciation removes all trace of previous human activity including your ancestors'.
60

Mcsnagpile,

02/06/2008 09:17:20
Quite right, what we need is a few English --Africans, Pakistanis, Chinese in the cabinet. I thing Maharajah Broon would suit a turban.A Scot by any other name.
61

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:18:11
#55 Brownlie.

Now you are being silly! There were various kingdoms in 'Scotland'. Said kings were more like war lords and did battle. 'England' also had several rival kingdoms long before England existed. These local loyalties still apply and form the basis for the several federated States that we now envisage. The USGB is a viable alternative to Union. Let's consider it seriously.
62

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 09:19:55
What I don't understand is all these dopes going on about a Scot minister for a Scottish nation and a English minister for the English nation.

When the incontrovertible truth is anyone from any nation within the E.U can be an elected politician (minister) in any nation within the E.U.

So eventually you could have a polish first minister and a Romanian prime minister............have you lot got that and being an Independent Scotland within the E.U will not change that......have you lot got that

you wanna be an truly Independent nation leave the E.U you lot got that?
63

Sile,

02/06/2008 09:21:35
LaBore Mps are writhing in death trying to get what they see as the English vote to keep their jobs, they think that suddenly becoming English MPs instead of Lobby Robots they will be seen in a better light.

devolution was badly devised and put through by bliar and gordychov, the only complaint I have about it is not that they are Scottish but the system imposed is undemocratic, the English watch this govt impose laws from top up fees/care for the elderly to lack of health care in the NHS, and they have no power to vote out the people who hold the most powerful jobs, the others are lobby robots and only do what they think will keep them in power.

As an aside I never see Jim Murphy mentioned, Minister of Europe now hes the one I cannot stand for what he is doing with the Lisbon treaty but it has nowt to do with his nationality, I don't like snakes or traitors..and I class him as both, if thats racist so be it.
64

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 09:23:09
56 Liberal for life
A federation dominated by one body with 85% of the population? N.Ireland with only 1% what kind of representation would they have when we have less than 9%?
Such an asymetrical federation would be little better than the current set up that's why , as you have been repeatedly told, federation is a non-starter for the UK.
65

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:25:59
#61 Livilion.

I agree absolutely with your part two, except that with inindation my acestors retreated to higher ground. Yours may have drowned of course! (This is irony)

Your part one is tosh. One is a Shetlander even though Shetland doesn't (yet) exist as a nation. Being Scottish is as much cultural as legal, but you will find that today anyone born here is legally both Scottish and British. Facts are chiels, I'm afraid.

As to Scotland being a nation with settled borders, then Berwick didn't change hands a dozen times during the years you mention? BPC didn't march on London? etc
66

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:30:22
#66 The proposed Fed of GB will not be so asymmetrical as you suggest. England will break down into States and that will help the balance far better than at present. But Orkney and Shetland will have the same grievance against Holyrood (in fact they already have). The US has tiny States and huge ones, but have worked out a modus vivendi OK. Cheer up!
67

famie,

australia 02/06/2008 09:31:43
When a country has been colonized as Scotland has been for over three hundred years it can never rise above mediocrity. The colonizers make sure that anyone who is progressive is quickly relegated to oblivion so the seed is set for posterity and continues unabbated. Just look at all the former British colonies to see the examples of this and until the old regime is well and truly extinguished there will be no change for the better. Scotland needs independence to fulfil its potential as a small progressive nation and become an exempler of what can be achieved when there is a real democracy embedded in its political system.
68

James.com,

02/06/2008 09:32:32
It is not Scots that are the problem but Labour MPs. Also Labours Multicultural project forgot to include the residents!
69

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 09:34:24
Rules is nothing more than a troll. His idiotic posing on Federalism and LVT is not real nor is his commitment to it. We have been down this road several times already. Best to let it rant on its own.
70

megz,

glasgow 02/06/2008 09:34:36
i think it is quite obvious that the english don't want scots running their country (though to be fair to them i wouldn't want those 4 running mine either but unfortunately they do). Its a pity we can't get the english to vote on independence, there would be more chance of getting it. As it is (even though i hope otherwise) i think we will be given our independence when the oil runs out and we are more of a burden.
71

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 09:34:51
64 Nikostratos,
Tell us something we don't know!
The Holyrood parliament has continental europeans, an asian born on the sub-continent and a sprinkling of non and part-Scots UK nationals.
Take some time to think about this, ethnicity has got no part in the politics of Scotland.
Try reading up on civil/civic nationalism to get the idea.
If you were born here or choose to make your life here so long as you are prepared to pull your weight and contribute positively to your community there will always be a welcome for you as a Scot.

Get this, there are no 'truely independent' nations anymore even North Korea, Albania and Red China depend on the outside for their continued survival.
All that Scotland requires is to be able to choose whose help we give and recieve.
72

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 09:36:42
69 famie,australia
>>When a country has been colonized as Scotland has been for over three hundred years it can never rise above mediocrity<<

From an Ausie, priceless.
73

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 09:37:11
I cant understand Labour at all these days. They tell us they are a staunch unionist party yet do everything they can to undermine the union at every oportunity do they have a hidden agenda for a post Independent Scotland? Have they secretly reverted back to their home rule doctrine?
74

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 09:41:09
#71 Committed.
Arguments fail you? Resorting to rudeness again?
75

Calum10,

02/06/2008 09:45:14
A purge of all Scottish Labour ministers will take place. Jack Straw, the mis-spoken man of politics, knows that and is to take advantage of that by becoming the de-facto Prime Minister of England as Gordon Brown's deputy.

This is just the start of the 'English Backlash'. Both Labour and the Tories are committed to cut the Scottish block grant. The Tories will also cut the number of Scottish MPs. Labour and the Tories are now in a dog-fight over who is more Little Englander.

There will no more talk of a Union Of Equals. Scots will no longer command high office at Westminster. The UK will in the future be governed by quota. You forget meritocracy and competence. Your nationality and your class will now determine how far you get up the political grease-pole in London.

76

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 09:45:30
68 Rulesbutnotrulers
You appear to be forgetting the results of Two Jags' referendum on setting up an elected assembly for the North East. The Geordies etc blew it well into the weeds, splitting up England is not even close to being a non-starter.
77

brownlie,

02/06/2008 09:46:20
63 Rules

Like most of your postings completely non-consequential and without any relevance to the subject.

It must be more than just co-incidence that as soon as I mentioned your alter ego and the paucity of support for your point of view then up pops "Liberal" to congratulate you on your postings!!
78

Gael,

SE England 02/06/2008 09:48:09
David Cameron has 13 Etonian Front Benchers and a number of Etonians in the back office of the Conservative Party, yet nobody has raised this as an issue.

Westminster Parliament is a British Parliament for the United Kingdom.
79

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:48:29
I have a slightly different slant on the perceived bias towards Scots. Lets take our Country Back and then there is no need to lie awake at night wondering what is to happen to the Traitors to Scotland who will lose their careers down South in the Money Pit called London. You know the place where every penny we pay in taxes and Oil surplus is paid too, only to receive a feeble pocketmoney of less than 10 billion a year. Yes thats right the place where all our money goes to pay for all their grandoise schemes like Olympics and Quangos.

Its surely Time Now.

Keep up the good work Alex and the SNP Scottish Government
80

Hamish Scott,

02/06/2008 09:51:38
Ethnic cleansing of Scots from the Cabinet. This is the state we're in.
81

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England. 02/06/2008 10:06:44
The answer is simple. A parliament for England, with real powers, plus a First Minister, elected in England - responsible to the people who elected him (it's called democracy, folks!) - then Gordon can go back to Kircaldy and become life president of Raith Rovers.

I find it insulting that Brown waxes lyrical about building 3 million houses, new nuclear power stations and 'eco-towns' "across the country" when he knows he is only talking about building them in England.

If the other home countries have a national representation then it is time England has one - whether Jack Straw thinks it's a good idea or not.
ENGLISH PARLIAMENT NOW!!!!!!
82

Calum10,

02/06/2008 10:07:38
#82 Your are right this is ethnic cleansing.

What we will see is Labour, the Tories and the BNP fighting over the same political ground. Scots better be prepared for the 'English Backlash'.

"Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!"
83

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 10:12:35
There's no need to purge the cabinet of Scots. Purging it of Labour politicians would be quite sufficient.
84

Sile,

02/06/2008 10:13:24
Divide and rule indepenence from the English, while Jim Murphy slurps on the gravy train, this argument really will be of no consequence once the Lisbon Constitution is ratified, Your/British oil will belong to Europe try looking beyond these chat boxes and read the Lisbon.
85

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 10:24:32
I dont mind if they clear Westminster of Scots and Scottish representation but it has to come with Independence. They cannot deny elected Scottish representation and hang onto the union at the same time. They cannot form governments based on who lives where within the constituency of the UK. We have had English dominated Government cabinets many times without complaint but now we see the English dont like to have foreigners dictating national policy to them how surprising. Maybe now they understand our need for Independence from their domination and dictation of national policy on us.
86

langtonian,

scotus 02/06/2008 10:26:33
BBC Politics show Sunday past-John Sopel grilling Labour party M.P.regarding the cabinet.Who is an MP for Wolverhampton,and spoke with a very pronounced Glasgow Scottish accent,Sopel at the end of the interview asked him,what he thought about the growing comments about to many Scots in Gordon Browns cabinet as he was obviously of Scottish origin.

Replied -well I was actually born in N.Ireland,taken by parents to Glasgow as a baby,mostly educated in Glasgow(hence the accent),parents moved to Wolverhampton,has spent All his working life in England,but never lost his Scots voice.

Went on to say to Sopel as far as he was concerned it was who is fitted best for whatever Cabinet post is on offer,no matter what their background is.

John Sopel looked somewhat cretfallen at posing his conudrum to the very impressive Wolverhampton M.P,

There would be little point in having any Humpty Dumpties in the cabinet,best to have intellectual awareness and contribute accordingly.

While the top echelon of the SNP cabinet mafia are capable of putting over most of their flawed concordat manifesto,do be aware they have a goodly share of Humpty Dumpties(tartan of course)who could easil fall from the Idependance wall at any election.

From-Independant minded Scot wishing to remain within the UK parameters.
87

Peter Baleares,

Palma 02/06/2008 10:32:04
82 Ethnic cleansing ! What... you mean like in the former Jugoslavia and Rawanda! me thinks some proportion needed.
He suggests, more English in the cabinet as the Scottish contingency is out of proportion to the number of MPs from Scotland, and as labour are performing badly, with Scots running the show, he may well have a point.

Is it time yet?
88

Dooogie,

Highland 02/06/2008 10:36:29
Let's do away with having any of the Scottish members in the cabinet. After all we could do away with Des Browne the Scottish Secretary (Governor General)and replace him with an English MP - for all the good he is! Now that would be democracy for you!
If there are 23 members in the UK (Unequal Kingdom) cabinet and only 4 of them are Scots, then simple arithmetic means that there are 19 other NON Scottish noddies left to chose from - SOME CHOICE!
89

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 10:40:38
89

So if the arguement is based on proportionality
where does it stop? Should we have 55% of the cabinet made up of Women? irrespective of talent?
How about every cabinet must have Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Buddist, representation not to mention
representation from every constituency in the UK.
How big does our cabinet have to be to include everybody qualified within the proportionality argument?
90

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 02/06/2008 10:44:17
LOL! Accusations of racism abound! What a joke. One thing that is obvious to the world is that the Scots love to dish it out but just can't take it.

The Scots have done nothing, but bicker, moan and put down the English while vaingloriously bolstering their own achivements - for the past 301 miserable years.

Now the realisation has dawned that you are nowhere as good as you think you are and you are generally unwanted the best you can do is bleat "racist".

What was that song The Proclaimers sang about others ruling their land? And you have the nerve to call the English arrogant.

Vote SNP and in God's name go!
91

Radical Mac,

Kirkcaldy 02/06/2008 10:47:20
A simple tactic by the overly ambitious Jack Straw to become PM, after all it might be his last chance. Given what we financially contribute to the UK economy oil,gas & whisky revenue half the cabinet should be from Scotland. Since the union of the crowns we have heard ignorant english people refer to England when they mean Britain. After all Scots built the empire once ruled by Great Britain. More importantly we sacrifced our lives to go down and run England for them. Mind you the SNP Government is not helping. We can only stop all this by having an English Parliament or Parliaments to balance things out. I hope G Brown ceases to be PM then I might be able to meet my MP.
92

John Ronaldson,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 10:48:34
This could quite justifiably be viewed as racism
93

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 10:50:41
92

What a very rascist comment. Obviously a Britnat.
94

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 11:02:09
#67 "As to Scotland being a nation with settled borders, then Berwick didn't change hands a dozen times during the years you mention?"

Berwick last changed hands in 1482 when it was captured by Richard Duke of Gloucester. Scotland's borders have therefore been established for the last 526 years. Its borders have been longer established than many European countries including Germany (1871), Italy (1870), Ireland (1922), Finland (1917), and so on.

95

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

02/06/2008 11:04:27
#78 The referendum for an Assembly for the North-East failed because what was being offered was little more than a talking shop.
96

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 11:05:45
#73 livilion,livingston

It aint me saying a persons ethnicity should be the determining factor on entitlement to take part in civil society of any nation. Best look closely at your pals in the 'Nationalist' movement..you got that


And as for no 'truely independent' nations you just repeat the point i was making Again speak to the nationalists i already know that fact..you got that

and finally "All that Scotland requires is to be able to choose whose help we give and recieve" no. no .no

When you sign up to the E.U you give up that right scotland's sovereignty is given..given to the E.U..you got that...good
97

Peter Baleares,

Palma 02/06/2008 11:07:22
92 Stephen, The English are Racist and arrogant, but the Scots proud and patriotic.

Isnt it time yet Commited?
98

livilion,

livingston 02/06/2008 11:09:33
92 Stephen_Gash

Cap in Hand: The Proclaimers
A