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New mum's shock at bus pram ban

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Published Date: 22 July 2008
BUS drivers in Edinburgh have been told not to allow prams on board to keep the space free for wheelchair users.
Lothian Buses drivers have been given the instruction as the company seeks to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act.

While parents with fold-up buggies are still allowed on – on the understanding the buggies will be folded if a disabled passenger boards the bus – traditional prams have been outlawed.

One young mum said she only discovered the new rules on a trip into town at the weekend.

Kirsti Mill and her newborn son Oakley waited for an hour in Princes Street on Saturday before a bus driver took pity on them. They had caught the bus earlier that day from Wester Hailes without any problems.

She and her mother Arlene, 41, from Hailesland Gardens, are angry that passengers were not informed of the change. They say that it is unfair on parents of young children, who may rely on the buses in order to get around the city.

Kirsti, 23, a mother-of-two, said: "It was the first time I'd taken Oakley out in his new pram. I couldn't believe it when ten went past and they wouldn't let us on."

Her mother added: "I think it's shocking. We only managed to get home because there was a nice bus driver. He had to call his manager and they said he could let us on this time.

"We had a new pram and it cost a lot of money. I think they're safer than fold-up buggies for young babies.

"I can understand their point about disabled access, but this feels like discrimination against parents. It's going to be really hard for Kirsti to get out and about if she can't take the pram on the bus.

"The thing that makes me really angry is there's no publicity about this. Every parent needs to know about it, but there are no signs on the buses or bus stops."

Lothian Buses said the move was a requirement of the Disability Discrimination Act and applied nationwide, but it had recently clarified the rules to its drivers.

A spokesman said: "In order to ensure that, as far as possible, wheelchairs can be accommodated on our vehicles, we are unable to carry prams as they cannot be folded. We can, however, carry one unfolded buggy if the wheelchair space is unoccupied."

He said the design of the buses only allowed one wheelchair or unfolded buggy. Drivers are required by law to ask passengers to move to allow space for a wheelchair user.

A spokesman for First in Scotland East said: "We allow prams and buggies on our low-floored buses, if there's space available."


The full article contains 459 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 July 2008 4:07 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Mallory,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 12:25:30
About time too. Some of the monster 8-wheel prams should be banned everywhere not just buses. What's wrong with carrying the child - like most peoples throughout the world?
2

Prin the Dissolving Donkey,

22/07/2008 12:27:50
These mums are never satisfied. First they have special "parent and toddler" parking spaces at the supermarket, then they expect public transport to part the red sea for them. Sooner or later they'll be asking for their own motorway lanes, doubtless so they can speed past us at 90mph while displaying their loathsome "Baby on Board!" signs.
3

B S,

22/07/2008 12:30:54
Why not just get off the bus if someone with a wheelchair gets on?
4

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 12:35:17
Yet another stupid idea.

How about the days when every bus was a Routemaster? Somehow things worked fine then and there were no stupid rules to obey.

This country is obsessed with stupid, petty rules and regulations and it's high time we just ignored them all. People do not seem to be able to think for themselves and make their own decisions and judgement calls any more. It's about time they grew up. Some of us are worse that kids at nursery school and the authorities encourage this with all their rubbish.
5

,

22/07/2008 12:37:30
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6

ST170,

22/07/2008 12:41:10
#2 great post, re the "baby on board" signs I thought I was the only one that noticed that! Only the other day I was on the A1 in my motor (a Clio Sport) and a mother forced me into the inside lane in her large 4X4 and low ad behold what was dangling in the rear window? What is the point in these signs anyway??
7

ST170,

22/07/2008 12:41:15
#2 great post, re the "baby on board" signs I thought I was the only one that noticed that! Only the other day I was on the A1 in my motor (a Clio Sport) and a mother forced me into the inside lane in her large 4X4 and low ad behold what was dangling in the rear window? What is the point in these signs anyway??
8

Gastric Antral Vascular Ectasia,

22/07/2008 12:49:45
I'm afraid there is no point to a "Baby on Board!" sign. You could have one that said "Grandparent on Board!" or "Lawn Clippings on Board!" and it would make just as much sense.
9

Matt there,

Somewhere 22/07/2008 12:52:20
"Lothian Buses said the move was a requirement of the Disability Discrimination Act and applied nationwide"

No it isn't. This is just some crackpot tinpot making the rules up as they go along.
10

A Leither,

22/07/2008 12:53:46
#5 I suspect he was named after a brand of designer sunglasses !!
11

Furious,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 12:54:31
I wondered when someone would bring up the DDA. Lothian buses MUST comply. They don't have a choice. ITS THE LAW.
I think the problem has arisen because when a pram/buggy is on the bus parents dont know or dont want to know that they MUST get off to allow a wheelchair on. It might not be fair to them but ITS THE LAW.
12

Brendan,

22/07/2008 12:55:23
Off Topic too - but I'm another who are sick to the teeth of seeing reckless drivers speeding past me at 80-90 with Baby on board - or better still "Precious Baby on Board" stickers.
13

Peedie Paws,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 12:58:09
The "Baby on Board" signs came from America. Parents put them in their cars so that if there was ever an accident, the emergency services saw the sign and could therefore check for a baby or small child in the back seat.
14

,

22/07/2008 13:01:12
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15

the dog,

edin 22/07/2008 13:01:40
no before time
16

,

22/07/2008 13:02:50
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17

,

22/07/2008 13:04:13
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18

,

22/07/2008 13:10:50
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19

Destroy the Planet,

22/07/2008 13:12:59
In my 40 years of travelling on LRT, i can honestly say i have never seen a wheelchair user get on the bus.

Wonder if they'll apply the same logic with tourists and there suitcases ?
20

thehitmaster,

Penicuik 22/07/2008 13:14:17
Where Lothian ever going to tell people or just wait until people try to travel? Whilst I agree that disabled should get priority I do thing think that some common sense should come into play on the part of the Lothian bosses its drivers and the public. It would be interesting to know the number of journeys made by disabled / pram pushers against the number of actual journeys that use low floor buses!
21

,

22/07/2008 13:16:20
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22

DementedDaughter,

22/07/2008 13:25:35
Might the reason wheelchair users aren't often seen on the buses be that they can never get on them because of the prams? The disabled also have 'special' parking places and stickers in their car windows but no-one's slagging them off here? The disabled also often qualify for taxi cards that mean they don't need to get public transport.

And really - does it matter what her baby was called? Would you rather she'd called him Hamish, Angus or Callum something really equally ridiculous sounding - but culturally more acceptable to the Edinburgh middle class?

23

,

22/07/2008 13:26:14
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24

alec splode,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 13:27:40
Who in their right mind thinks it's ok to get on a bus pushing a small bathtub on wheels ?

Buy a cheap fold-down buggy; problem solved.
25

,

22/07/2008 13:28:43
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26

john3,

22/07/2008 13:29:01
Article certainly raised a lot of response. The spaces always said for diabled and were built into buses for that purpose. Mum's need to put down mobile phones and
pick up their weans occasionally.
27

Edin,

22/07/2008 13:29:20
Why did she wait with her precious baby for an hour in the rain and cold. Why did she not just get a Taxi!!! Westerhailles eh.. Oakley eh... hmm

BUY A NEW PRAM THAT FOLDS....
28

stu pot,

22/07/2008 13:29:32
Prams are for pushing,get on with it !
29

the good doctor,

22/07/2008 13:29:46
the price of dog food today.
30

PaulB,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 13:34:15
Maybe Kirsti's husband could buy her a buggy which would fold up. LRT do need clear signs on their buses though - and wheelchair users should ALWAYS have priority over people with babies. And tourists with suitcases should be made to take taxis.
31

Henpen,

edinburgh... 22/07/2008 13:41:57
#28 Angus, Hamish & Callum are not brands of sunglasses & are therefore not on the same baby name book page as Oakley. I am sure he is a very lovely baby all the same...

As for the buses - would it be controversial to ask whether the wheelchair users can fold their chairs down when on the bus too (when able to of course)?

For the record I neither go on buses, have a wheelchair or a pram. Maybe I am then underqualified to post an opinion on this...

32

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 13:49:16
ok, as i have previously posted stating that i have been a bus driver in edinburgh i feel sorta qualified to make this statement. many many years have went past without access as such for buggies/prams, what did the responsible parents do? lifted their precious one out, folded and got on, buggy in rack provided or under seat. no problem eh? mothers/fathers do not have the divine right to dictate that the space is created for them. its a space for people less fortunate than most,unfortunately.#23. theres a very very nice man from dalkeith who regularly uses buses (wheelchair) and another lovely lady and her husband in the gilmerton road area (again wheelchair) and more, but thats neither here nor there, the space in reality is there for wheelchair user primarily, its really a sort of concession to allow a pram/buggy to use that space, maybe not law but common sense(ermmmmmm? that missing obviously in some cases) plus if the bus is really busy then there is nothing worse than----pram/buggy running into your legs,rucksack slapping your face,not standing in the proper places when full(ie door alleyway) and (now this is a good 1!) personal music players! surely they by the definition of the word personal should be that, not someone sitting about 5 seats behind you and you are listening to bum bum bum rap rap rap tssh tssh tssh. common sense eh? not a chance!
33

Citizen V,

People's Republic of Leith 22/07/2008 13:51:06
Get a folding buggy, and when you get on a bus - fold it up.

Better still; get a baby-sling or such.

I tell you what really peeves me. Parents getting on a bus at rush hour when the bus is already busy and not folding the pram up. I see it practically every day.

I'm with PaulB on making tourists with suitcases get taxis too.

Oh, and Oakley is a good name for a pair of sunglasses, but a daft name for a child.
34

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 13:52:04
#7:

I was going to crash into another car the other day, then I saw it had a sign saying that there was a baby on board and I steered round it instead.
35

celtic4,

USA 22/07/2008 13:55:08
Gee! What a person names their child is nobody's business. And why doesn't Scotland just ban breathing while they're at it. I read every day about ban this and ban that and this ban Etc. Good grief! I am very happy we do not have that sort of society here.
And yes 13, the sign does come from America so if there is an accident the rescue people can search for the child. Good idea. But I agree, people should have the fold down buggys for the bus if they must take one.
Also, I would like to say that as a tourist, I do not know why anyone would attempt to carry a suitcase on board a bus! I certainly won't.
Also, the handicapped need extra care, and the people that do not appreciate this need to spend one week in a wheelchair. Then maybe they would be more thoughtful.
36

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 14:01:56
#45:

"so if there is an accident the rescue people can search for the child."

Is it not a better idea not to have an "accident" in the first place?

Suitcases are nothing! I'm going to buy a double bass and carry that around on the bus with me. It appears that there is no legislation about doing that so I should be fine.
37

A.A.,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 14:02:55
27

Very Good!
38

A.A.,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 14:04:07
45

I agree.
39

,

22/07/2008 14:15:01
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40

,

22/07/2008 14:29:05
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41

Pocket Dictionary,

22/07/2008 14:37:59
Its actually a cunning plan to ensure easy identification of wanted war criminals who use public transport as a part of their elaborate disguises.
42

elayne,

22/07/2008 14:44:16
one can buy a fold up pram for about £25!or use a baby carrier for on buses etc,(ill bet it was a burburry pram lol)or better still,just walk(provided its not TOO far)the kid will benefit from fresh air,never done my kids any harm
43

I love to eat Sellotape,

22/07/2008 14:51:52
52.

What is the cunning plan? Or is it so cunning we aren't allowed to know what it is?
44

JAE1,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 15:02:34
We are always being encouraged to use public transport .... LRT take a hint at the word PUBLIC ... so why shouldn't families with small children also travel on buses? Can someone who lives in Westerhailes register the birth of their baby there? Can someone who lives in Silverknowes magic themselves to the ERI for a paediatric clinic appointment? Why should parents be expected to fork out for taxis if they want/need to travel in/around Edinburgh? And, finally, for info to all the smart a***s, baby carriers and cheap fold up buggies aren't always suitable for for the wee ones!
45

I love to eat Sellotape,

22/07/2008 15:06:23
I've just formed a new band.

It's called Pram Ban.
46

I love to eat Sellotape,

22/07/2008 15:14:05
Yes. They can.
47

PaulB,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 15:15:34
#55 - as one of the smart a**es above I want to ask - since when was a buggy not suitable for children - just stop having so many or at least save enough to buy a car and stop moaning - the world doensn't owe you and your weans a living! And remember, people in wheelchairs have no choice - you and your kids do.
48

JAE1,

22/07/2008 15:20:37
Reply to t**t #60 - there's already too many cars in the city, I don't want one; I said "cheap fold-up buggies" not all buggies; I work full-time and my children are all grown up; people in wheelchairs can also choose whether or not to use a taxi; don't make assumptions because it makes you look stoopid!
49

antz the angry wester hailes resident,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 16:07:39
why cant people just comment on the main focus of the story , instead of always trying to bash the "schemes" , also what does it matter what she named her baby(its nothing to do with anyone) or even what she is called herself , always the same small minded people on this site.
50

La5t_minit,

22/07/2008 16:18:26
Thats right. Chase the mums out of their 4x4's onto the buses then dont let them on the bus with the environmentally friendly alternative transport for their children.

1st price them out of their cars, then ban them from using the bus... whats next, car, bus, and CHILD FREE ZONES... Get a grip.

51

South West,

22/07/2008 16:18:49
#45, yeah the states is great isn't it ?!!!!!

You don't have those issues because you're all too fat to get on a bus and would require your own individual low loader...., that or the story wouldn't make the paper, you'd just sue instead (somebody farts and you guys sue).

52

Prin the Dissolving Donkey,

22/07/2008 16:23:04
Stop it, 65, or they'll start dropping their bombs on us.
53

FrankGallagher,

22/07/2008 16:28:00
NO 64

I think you will find that its generally schemies that make the news.

And their names are hilarious, so what if the posh people what to take the p155 out of them.

Go back to your stairwell
54

South West,

22/07/2008 16:28:25
#66, nah, our oil reserves are dwindling so we are not worth invading.....
55

,

22/07/2008 16:29:20
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56

SPG,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 16:30:49
Oakley Mill? Thats just outside Dunfermline.
57

,

22/07/2008 16:32:38
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58

FrankGallagher,

22/07/2008 16:32:55
Apologies NO 64, my comment was vented at NO 63
59

Look on the Bright side,

22/07/2008 16:39:18
Agree with #71. She wouldn't even stand a chance at the Glamourous Gran's contest at Butlin's and she's only 23. What does her mum look like, she's 41.
And Oakley, poor wee Oakley, what's it going to be shortened to as he gets older, Oakers, Ley neither of them sound right either.
60

,

22/07/2008 16:39:54
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61

antifa,

22/07/2008 16:46:08
74 - yes, they're poor, and therefore criminals. Hilarious. Get yourself a biscuit.
62

AD in sunny Livingston,

22/07/2008 16:53:50
To all those people saying "GET A FOLD DOWN BUGGY" - not practical in a lot of cases.

The majority of fold-down buggies are completely unsuitable for babies until the age of 6 months. Meanwhile, what are new mums supposed to do. It's also not always practical for women to carry their babies - various problems caused during pregnancy and childbirth can leave them unable to carry their children any distance.

Yes, there are wheelchair users that take the bus, but the vast majority either use taxis or have a car on Motability. There are many, many more mums around with babies and they should be catered for - AS WELL AS the disabled. Let's face it - we all want to see less traffic in Edinburgh so why leave mums unable to take the bus??

First Bus obviously have the right idea. Lothian are shooting themselves in the foot here. They are saying it's because of the Disability Discrimination Act but they're guilty of discrimination against mums.

63

South West,

22/07/2008 17:00:03
What next, the first step on the bus will actually be a set of scales and work out your BMI, "sorry but you are too fat and would take up too much space". Good plan actually, get rid of all the fatties and there's plenty space...
64

M33,

22/07/2008 17:03:05
Someone should invent a fold-down buggy that you can fold down with the child still in it. That would solve a lot of problems.
65

M33,

22/07/2008 17:04:21
By the way, has anyone tried saying 'Bus Pram Ban' really quickly over and over again...
66

jennifer skinner,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 17:07:46
hi i am a mother with a 1 year 5 months child who is registerd disabled and is tube fed through the day so what do i do if a bus driver asks me to fold my buggy what should i carry with me as prof that my child is disabled.but i think that would be improper to do as that would be branding her. i look forward to your comments on this matter.jennifer skinner
67

Big Smoke,

22/07/2008 17:20:20
Solution - Tow bar + Trailer + Wheelchair = Wheelchair access and the bus stops smelling of p*ss at the same time!
68

Incandescent,

22/07/2008 17:20:55
#41 I'm considering changing my name by deed poll to Rayban Fahrenheit.
69

antz the angry wester hailes resident,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 17:27:13
#83 the whole point of getting it in the paper was not to "make a difference" as you put it,they are not trying to get the rules changed, it was to alert other new parents that they cant take prams on the buses , as lothian buses dont seem to have advertised the fact very well
70

r1niceboy,

yankeeland 22/07/2008 17:52:56
If only wheelchair users had some kind of rolling apparatus with which to propel themselves around....
71

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 22/07/2008 17:57:47
#80 I've suffered your problem Jennifer. When my lad was a lot younger he was able to fit into a disabled buggy which was actually much larger than a kiddy one. I was pushing him in the gardens of one of the beautiful Cambridge colleges when a bowler-hatted bully came blustering up and demanded to know what I thought I was doing pushing a buggy around the sacred grounds. His face was a picture when he discovered that my son was severely disabled and he slunk off with his tail between his legs. Thank your lucky stars that there is access for wheelchairs on Edinburgh buses. They're a rare sight down here.
72

Loubie,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 17:58:10
Rather than spend loads of money on a 'designer' pram, why not spend it wisely.............there are 3in1 prams out there.
1 part is a carrying chair for the newborn, another part a carrycot and finally a buggy.......all can be used on the same frame that can be folded easily.
NO EXCUSE
73

April79,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 18:03:16
Aww boo-hoo!! Access for prams wasnt available when my son was born so you either walked or got a fold down buggy. No point in phoning up the papers to complain about it...unless you just want to get your picture in it to show your mates
74

Mad Meg,

22/07/2008 18:06:01
Every day, we are becoming more and more "child unfriendly".

It's a sad reflection, when the only adults taking an interest in our city's children are paedos.



75

pinksarah,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 18:12:59
i think it is a disgrace that you cannot board a lothian buses with a pram. Im due my second baby in a weeks time and still have the pram from when i had my daughter, which i could take on the bus and on the one occassion when a wheelchair wanted on i was asked to fold up or get off. Although i have a pram i wont be allowed to take my daughter and new baby on trips like the zoo as i dont drive, which would make it harder for me to get about.!!!! my pram actually folds down as well but as its a pram i still wont get on. The amount of buses i see everyday its rare to see a wheel chair user on a bus anyway so why not let the prams on us mums have to get around just the same and we can fold down or get off for wheelchair users. Its all dicrimination no matter what way you look at it so why not use your common sense!!!!
76

Jed Smith,

Moscow 22/07/2008 18:15:28

Only an eejit would try to take a pram on a bus.

When I was a kid my little brother, Ray-Ban Wayfarer, wouldn't ever have been taken onto the bus in a pram, it's just daft.

The cyclists will be trying to get their bikes onto the bus next.

77

Emma mum of 3.,

Tranent, East Lothian 22/07/2008 18:32:19
Here here #76.

Not allowing prams on buses is ridiculous. I have 3 children ages 6, 3 and 6 months. Even if I had a "fold down" buggy, how would that be possible. Where exactly do I put my 6 month old while I am doing so?

I chose my pram for my babies comfort, and not all "fold down" buggies are suitable for younger babies. And as far as I am aware, ALL buggies/prams fold up/down one way or another, so which ones aren't to be allowed on and which ones are??

It's not just young mothers this is discriminating again, its mother/father/grandparents/carers of all ages.

People in wheelchairs get mobility allowance, to be used for taxi's. They should be using it properly.

I for one will be using First Bus.
78

LB bus driver,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 18:41:26

This is not a new policy, it is just being enforced more due to a recent spate of publicity after disabled passengers have been unable to get on a bus as the space is occupied by a buggy or pram.

Personally I will still allow a pram on board as there are far more parents with prams / buggies that use the routes that I drive than wheelchair bound passengers. I see no logic in allowing the space to be empty for the entire journey "just in case" when a perfectly legitimate passenger could be utilising the space.

I and probably most other drivers have been told that we cannot tell a passenger with a pram / buggy to fold it we can only ask them. We are certainly not allowed to ask them to leave the bus if they refuse, the notice simply says apologise to the wheelchair user on behalf of the space user.

I have had more abuse from passengers in wheelchairs not being able to board the bus than I have had from passengers with a buggy or pram not being able to board the bus, so please tell me who is being more unreasonable here?
79

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 22/07/2008 18:44:09
Not before time but; not completely unsympathetic!
In my neck of the woods, it is amazing the amount off young mothers - mostly unmarried - who barge on to buses wih huge prams - probably provided - and block the narrow passage way for other passengers going to and fro from their jobs.
Elderly people, especially those disabled - also find it a real hazard at times when attempting to board and leave public transport. Probably a sure sign of the typical present deterioration off public decency standards in Blair and Brown's sleazy, lying,
corrupt New Labour Party's disunited UK!
80

You people annoy me!,

Groathill 22/07/2008 18:44:56
aaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Ok so why should a mother with a small baby need to get of the bus to let a wheelchair uses on?? Why shouldnt they have to wait in the scottish weather untill there is a space for them to get on??? If anyone with a small child or newborn baby has been asked to fold your normally heavy duty buggy or pram up to get on the bus you must understand!! Imagine how difficult to hold a small baby, fold up the buggy, and normally carry 1/2bags of baby essentials on to a bus!!!!!!!!! Can you???? Yes its very difficult and stressfull, and no i dont want to pass my baby on to a stranger thanks!!!

Yes if a mother and toddler are getting on a bus and they toddler can quite easily walk on to the bus themself, sure fold it up, make space, fantastic idea, im all for that!!

Clearly you people who are against the idea of wheelchair users waiting in the cold for the next bus havent tried using public transport with a small baby, no, didnt think so!!

FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED!!

So then, for the people who think they are so clever and still wonder what "baby on board" signs are used for?? I tell you! So the stupid drivers who drive up your butt, yes you get them, may think twice because if we crash you straight into my child!!!

Honesly I now know why at the age of 23 I so desparately want to get out this country!! To be a far away from your middle class snoots who only care what school you child goes to, what street you live on, and your salary!! Open your eyes, its sad and we pitty you!

Yours, Claire xxxx
81

Asil,

musselburgh 22/07/2008 19:02:55
yipeee, no more screaming kids on my bus and I am a mum! I had a big pram, but if was going to take bus i would take a foldable buggy,
82

Who let the dogs out?,

22/07/2008 19:04:21
IS SHE A NEW MUM ?!?!?

new grandma more like.........
83

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:05:07

I agree with AD ~76 and Claire ~99,

And we 'Mamby Pamby' after the disabled all too much!

Look at the disabled car-park spaces at some of the new supermarkets built, Sainsbury's in Gorgie!
God! you would think their was an 'Army' of the disabled coming to park their 'zimmers and only a handful of 'Baby and Tots' spaces, for Parents.
I notice its all the Men making, 'derogatory comments' towards this Mother, maybe they should be given Baby for a couple of weeks, and see how they get on a "Bus"

God! they wouldn't last 5minutes!
84

Conan the Librarian™,

22/07/2008 19:11:41
99
It's been a wee while Claire, but I used to carry my bairns in a papoose child carrier.
Much better for the bairn...

...And public transport.

Charles, you are posting early tonight.
85

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:22:59

Conan ~104,

Yes, but then quite a few story changes here today,

Someone mentioned this paper like the "Women's Weekly", compared to the Daily Mail, it is!, but you would be lucky to get 'comment catch' in the Mail,

'Horses for Courses and all that'!
86

Conan the Librarian™,

22/07/2008 19:26:54
105
I have no idea what "comment catch" is Charles.

Thankfully.
87

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:28:33

OckStreetBlues ~106,

Our,..'Boy Wonder' thinks of us as 'Old Codgers' anyhow, soo you are getting,'Two for the Price of One'.
88

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:30:17

Conan ~107,

No instant commenting and you are lucky if your comment goes 'on line'.
89

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:31:07

Times on Line pretty good and Posh!
90

You people annoy me!,

22/07/2008 19:41:27
Thanks for the supporters!

I did have a fold down buggy, but it was still heavy and still difficult to carry a newborn and baby bag onto the bus, then not forgetting getting it into the luggage space!!

And as for the baby carrier things. They just arent for everyone! Could go on but cant be bothered as my amazing bundle of joy needs a bath.

Sort of feel like im wasting my time here anyhoo, but yes i agree give these randoms a baby, buggy and let them try!!

So thank-goodness for my car and my "baby on board" sign, by the way its also a hi-bees one! Yous will love that!!

xxxxxxxxxxxx

91

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:44:23

OckStreetBlues ~111,

" giving the number of people who openly hate kids."

Not in this household, and if we are lucky, we may have 'Twins'

Now There's a "Bus" Problem!

Maybe the 'Trams' are a 'God Send' afterall!
92

Conan the Librarian™,

22/07/2008 19:46:10
109
I thought it was something in "Women's Weekly" Charles, lol.
93

Conan the Librarian™,

22/07/2008 19:48:58
113
Twins Charles?...Good luck...
94

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:50:23

Conan ~114,

It Is! that's why I'm here. :)

(joking)
95

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 19:53:30

Conan ~115,

Thanks Conan but its all 'Ifs'

1st one; 'If' they survive the defrost!

Its 'stressing' me out with worry!
96

Labradoodle,

22/07/2008 19:59:42
#99

Why should a mother get of a bus with a baby for a disabled person?? Eh the disability act? the fact the space is for a disabled user? common courtesy? respect for others? to name a few reasons. You choose to have a baby, you choose to take a small baby on a bus journey, you choose to use a pram instead of a folding buggie or papoose. People with disabilites do not choose to be diabled.

Get a taxi if you are as laiden down as you say you are, if you can afford to have a child you should be factoring in all extra expenses.

The space on the bus clearly states it is for wheelchair users so that is why people in wheelchairs are 'entitled' to the space, not the likes of you - "First come first serve" - your selfishness astounds me. With an attitude like yours, I pity you.








97

stuartyboy,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:11:50
My,my what a lot of anti- children people we have
today,speeding cars with child on board signs dangling
about,the rights of disabled people,so on and so on,
what about childrens rights,don't they have any?There
are some funny looking buggies around today,not in any
way designed for buses,but there again neither were
wheelchairs,it should be at the discretion of the
driver whether or not a buggy is allowed on board,not
some faceless rulemakers,who no little of real life.
Any way this arguement will go on and on.
98

dougie fi shandon,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:14:45
I heard of a Yehudi McEwan................
99

tomias,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:18:11
isnt sexual intercourse rewarding!
Being disabled of course is no fun.
100

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:18:40
Labradoodle ~118,

BABIES! TAKE A VERY IMPORTANT PART IN OUR COMMUNITY!

AND Soo are Their Mothers!

BABIES! ARE Vulnerable, great care is needed looking after them!

NO BABIES, NO-ONE Would be here, an we Wouldn't need any "Buses"!

They Deserve our utmost respect, so lets not 'Bully' Mummy!
101

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

22/07/2008 20:41:08
I blame the parents
102

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

22/07/2008 20:42:44
is it kirsty mill from oakley or is oakley the bairns name ?
103

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

22/07/2008 20:43:55
oh I get it, the bairn was named after the town she was concieved in, just like the superstars do
104

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

22/07/2008 20:48:46
your not allowed to take paint on the bus either
105

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:50:41

Mario ~various,

Good Evening Mario, getting prepared for a 'stir' :)

BTW, see you got your name in print in the EEN today, in the comments-on-line section.
106

,

22/07/2008 20:57:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:57:35

Is that you 'rushing' out to purchase a copy Mario,?
108

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 20:59:58

Cankers ~129,

Thank God! you joined the Rank!

We need that Womens 'scorn'

You Tell Them!
109

The happy lass!,

gorebridge, midlothian 22/07/2008 21:01:46
HURRAY!!!!!
I am so pleased that lothian buses have HAD to comply with the disability discrimination act.
As a wheel chair user, i can now have my independance and board a bus instead of having to wait for the next one when theres a buggy already on.
110

super mum,

edinburgh central 22/07/2008 21:04:48
i have 4 kids of my own 2 under age of 5 i do fold down my buggy when going on the bus but not always as easy getting home a bit of a long walk and expensive taxi fare i agree with the disable access but there is a cut off point when you have unpteen bags and running for a bus to get home in the rain,when i had my older kids there was no buggy points never mind disabled access you had to walk everywhere i feel sometimes myself as a parent that buggys can be folded down but mothers or fathers cant be botherd to do so a little courstey goes a long way but the lrt should have put on bus stops the new rules before bartering to everyone what is it coming too?? if asked i would fold down as i belive in manners and good will
111

super mum,

edinburgh central 22/07/2008 21:06:14
i have 4 kids of my own 2 under age of 5 i do fold down my buggy when going on the bus but not always as easy getting home a bit of a long walk and expensive taxi fare i agree with the disable access but there is a cut off point when you have unpteen bags and running for a bus to get home in the rain,when i had my older kids there was no buggy points never mind disabled access you had to walk everywhere i feel sometimes myself as a parent that buggys can be folded down but mothers or fathers cant be botherd to do so a little courstey goes a long way but the lrt should have put on bus stops the new rules before bartering to everyone what is it coming too?? if asked i would fold down as i belive in manners and good will
112

Boy Wonder,

22/07/2008 21:10:47
On Oakley Mill baht 'at
On Oakley Mill baht 'at
On Oakley Mill baht 'at ...

And keep him off the buses too!
113

A few things to say...,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 21:11:55
Fold down buggies are not suitable for newborns as they don't allow the baby to lie flat which is recommended for the first few months of life - ask any midwife/health visitor.

Baby carriers often aren't suitable for new mothers who have had a caesarean section or back problems.

Taxi's can't and won't carry young children unless the child is in a suitable car seat due to H&S laws. This is fine if the trip is planned but no good if you are caught in a downpour and want to get home.

I'm sure that most reasonable would not take issue with having to vacate the bus/fold down their buggy if the driver makes them aware that someone in a wheelchair is getting on.

The majority of prams will fold down to some degree for storage.

I'm sure there are lots of selfish, ignorant parents out there who don't pay any attention to those around them but there are lots of childless people out there who are just as bad. I don't think that becoming a parent makes people that way.

Its fine to suggest that parents should walk more with their children but that's not always practical during the winter months in Edinburgh - should those parents who can't/don't want to drive simply stay at home 24 hrs a day going quietly mad?

Edinburgh is a city full of judgmental snobs who enjoy stories such as these as it gives them a chance to feel superior to those featured in some way - its a shame.
114

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 21:12:50
Dont you start Boy Wonder!
115

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 21:17:37

A few things to say ~136'

Its all the Men Moaning, they wouldent know a,

'Baby Wipe' from a Newspaper!
116

Conan the Librarian™,

22/07/2008 21:28:18
138
Shall you wear papooses?

Parents can carry their bairns: A wheelchair bound person does not have that option.
117

Matt there,

somewhere 22/07/2008 21:34:06
Why on earth not use the following scheme adopted by Ariva?

Two spaces. One for buggies/prams, the other for wheelchairs. Simple, isn't it?
118

You people annoy me!,

22/07/2008 21:36:22
#118

Ok so firsty no need to pitty me, trust me on that one!

So disability act, what about discriminating against mothers and babies! Respect for others, well im proberly one of the most respecfull, pleasent people you will come across, who would never not give a disabled person or any other needed person a help should they need one.

Yes i did choose to have a baby thanks, best thing that could happen to a person, and yes I calculated most of my exspences for having a baby. We do brilliantly thanks!

However, let me give you this. 2 years ago on one very cold February evening I had to let 3 buses pass by with babies and buggies on (just the ways it goes i say, life). I got on the 4th bus to then be asked 2 stops down the road to get back of the bus to let a carer and wheelchair user on the bus. I refused as I alone could not fold down a heavy duty buggy (suitable for newborns by the way, H&S now) carry a 12 week old newborn and large bag! Could you huh!! Proberly eh?! So you will now tell me that i should have got off that bus back into the freezing with my newborn, to allow the wheelchair on??

It just makes me mad, that when folding a buggy down is not an option I would have to get off a bus.

I WOULD NEVER DREAM OF ASKING A WHEELCHAIR USER OR ANY OTHER PERSON TO GET OFF A BUS TO LET ME ON, SO WHEN I DONT HAVE ANOTHER OPTION SHOULD SOMEONE ASK ME??



119

You people annoy me!,

22/07/2008 21:37:14
#140

Terrific idea!!
120

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 21:49:46

You people annoy me! ~141,

And all the Men just stand by and watch a New Mum Struggle to fold down her Babies Buggy!

NOT ME! I always give a help to any Mum and Baby, and if we are blessed with a Baby/Babies I would hope the same, sadly the UK is not very 'Baby Friendly' unlike Cyprus.

Its a sorrowful state of affairs!
121

You people annoy me!,

22/07/2008 21:58:20

Thank-you Charles, made me smile, woo hoo!

Its true tho, im the same always get up to help other people but ive seen myself struggled and think "cheers"!!

In this last year ive had conversations with people through my work and cannot belevie how anti baby some people are!! Freaky! Im all for career and comfort but c-mon, they are wonderfull!!! Laughing to myself now!

anyhoo, goodluck. x
122

far enough away from skotland to feel safe...,

paris 22/07/2008 22:06:23
It never fails to surprise me what a bunch of fascists comment in this paper. Thank goodness I will never live in this bigoted land again... au revoir
123

craig7653,

Port Seton 22/07/2008 22:08:01
About time too. All these young mothers come across with a terrible attitude. They expect every one to jump when they get on the bus with these prams/buggies etc. BAN ALL PRAMS AND BUGGIES WHEELCHAIRS ONLY. When a disabled person wants to get on the bus when a pram is onboard they are very reluctant to fold down the buggy. If they know how to fold it.
124

You people annoy me!,

22/07/2008 22:17:09
#146

So i was 22 when i became a mother, so does that make me have a terrible attitude!?!? Honeslty what a stupid thing to say!!

One day when you grow old and your mind opens, you could have a child, and id love to hear you say BAN ALL PRAMS AND BUGGIES again??
125

,

22/07/2008 22:23:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

,

22/07/2008 22:24:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
127

Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 22/07/2008 22:32:52
tell granny that those huge prams are no safer than a well made "stroller" as the fold ups are called here. Myadaughter has one in her car and one in her husbands. I'm not referring to those "buggys" that look like kumbrellas. Unless made by a well known company the cheap and flimsy ones are a hazard. However, there's lots of good and safe srollers out there so there there's no excuse for notr using one rather than an over sized pram that the kid will outgrow in a few months. the stroller is good for a few years. Granny needs to research this. Yes, they should be kept off the bus if using that huge pram.
128

Conan the Librarian™,

22/07/2008 22:33:57
149
The Scotsman hates camels...?

Or naughty words. P r i c k s.
129

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 22:40:52
#147, You people annoy me,

This is not discrimination against mothers and babies, it's discrimination against those with prams.

And for a very good reason. Your story about refusing to get off the bus to let a wheelchair user on demonstrates why this is a good idea. This rule will avoid the inevitable situations like that one. And when you go on about discrimination, what's the big deal...that you have to use a buggy insead of a pram? Maybe you should enlist the services of Nelson Mandela to take up your cause.
130

Gemma Swain,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 22:49:24
I have 3 children under 5 and i use buses on a daily basis.I have a pram for my baby and my toddler is on a buggy board.Even if i had a stroller that i woz able 2 fold i wouldnt beable 2 to do it myself.I will also say that i have been asked by 1 bus driver 2 pay a child fare for my 4 year old even though under 5s travel free,I woz told by the driver that if u have 3 or more kids u have 2 pay for 1 but where does it state that i have never seen a notice about this on a bus or bus stop!!!!!Mothers that cant drive rely on these buses 2 get around.
131

You people annoy me!,

22/07/2008 22:53:21
#152 Julian

Ok so lets just say i have my small baby im on the bus with buggy up, wheelchair is getting on. I cannot possibly fold down buggy with small baby in my hands, no-one helps. Is mother and baby to get of the bus?

Mabe someone must be employed on each bus for that very reason. To help mother when shes told to fold down buggy and store it away with a baby in one hand??
132

Plantagenet,

22/07/2008 23:03:08
Never mind babies, prams and wheelchair users, will I still be able to take my bicycle on board a tram just like I did on the old trams in the 1950's when I couldn't be bothered cycling up Leith Walk?
133

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 23:23:56

OckStreetBlues ~153,

Just say it #146ref 'Victor Meldrew' (one foot in the grave)

God! I am glad not to be a 'Train Spotter' or him out of corrie, 'Norris'!

And anyone making reference to a 22year old Woman having Baby, is just 'NUTS'! 22years is a 'Perfect' any healthy age for Motherhood!
My previous was 21years when we had our first Girl, and she has grown just fine, now a Dentist.

And 'YES' I am hopefully gonna do it all over again, but this time, I will be the 'House Daddy', and I am looking forward to all them, 'Spukes' and 'shi*ty Nappies' at 3am when the UK sleeps!

I furthermore, do NOT INTEND to be trapped in the house all day on a Summers day, if we have luck and our embryos survive, even if we have 'Tripplets' all three will be using public transport, why should I use a car you cant park anywhere now?

If this is LRT's Policy, and if they are running the Trams, they better get it sorted PDQ!

Babies! as I said are a asset to us all, one should respect this.

When one is 'Old and Decrepit', it might just be that Baby you once 'Snubbed' that you rely on in old age!!
134

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 23:26:36

LONG LIVE THE BABIES ARMY!!
135

Vic,

Edinburgh 22/07/2008 23:44:51
We had a buggy that folded down for our wee one. It was suitable from birth, and was less than £100. Sorted.

A side issue, though: why do the newer buses all have luggage racks with rounded edges and sides, so that stuff falls out every time they go around a corner? That's if you can get anything in, as half the space is taken up by the 'Metro' bin.
136

Shaz,

edinburgh 22/07/2008 23:57:42
Does nobody actually have any concideration for the baby/child whom may be, for eg. asleep/just fell asleep, and have to be abrubtly be taken out the buggy...(can't walk? same as a disabled person) mum/dad/career etc trying to hold the wee one,(possibly look after other kids aswell) and maybe sort all the bags that have been carefully placed after a shop....????

Yet they expect and want people to use public transport,(park and ride etc) and are creating roadworks EVERYWHERE it seems, for the trams....... then a majority of the people (parents/carers) etc, whom would use it, are then getting put off the idea of public transport... FULL STOP! JUST WALK, they say**(uncaring postings here)**...... WHY then bother digging up everywhere for the bloody trams????
137

B.Stevens,

newhaven 23/07/2008 00:09:05
i think the comment by liz barron to be disgusting after all the person in the wheelchair would love to have the opportunity to be able to walk on a bus weighed down by shopping,but sadly for them this has been denied due to there disability why doesn't she try sitting in a wheelchair for one day to see what its like.
138

Julian.,

edinburgh 23/07/2008 00:37:06
#155 You people annoy me,

Most buggies can be folded down while holding baby. Failing that, try laying your baby on a seat right next to you for 5 seconds while you fold the buggy.

Probably a slightly better idea than LRT spending £5m a year to employ people on every bus to do this for you.
139

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 00:44:23
"You people annoy me"

Not have as much as you annoy me. Your spelling is of such a decent general standard that I suspect you deliberately use "proberly" instead of "probably".

Gemma Swain

GTF with your text-speak.
140

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 00:50:08
Charles

Is there more than one of you, or do you simply doze with a wireless keyboard in your hands? Do you work in the same "office" as Duncan from Edinburgh? You both seem to spend an astonishing part of the day maintaining multiple opinions on this site.
141

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 00:52:37
Damn! Of course 163 should read,"not half as much..."
142

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 01:12:04

Incandescent ~164,

Its a 'NO' to all your questions!

I only post comments, close to my heart, and ones on articles that are,..'utter nonsense'.

As you will see, many a thread, I never comment on!
143

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 01:15:56
16

Charles - I only ask because you appear to be "ON CALL" 24/7. And I confess I'm still curious about your seemingly random use of commas quotation marks - what's the story there?
144

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 02:39:21

Incandescent ~167,

oops!, its only 'Highlighting' certain important use of words, this is accepted by many institutions now, in the use of the English Language.

I did a check in 'Google' when soo many brought this to my attention, its NOT deliberate, just Style!
145

WGH Worker,

23/07/2008 04:44:57
#132 - What if there's already a wheelchair user on board!?
146

Gonna Nae,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 06:57:17
This is a ridiculous move by Lothian buses. There was a perfectly sensible sharing of the wheelchair space, now that common sense has been destroyed. Mums have a tough time getting around with kids. Its not just the kid and pushchair but shopping which makes folding the chair or carrying hard. Another toddler makes it harder.If a wheelchair gets on you have to go thats the deal. Whats the odds of that though 1-50? Many will now be stranded or have to take the car. A great social transport policy.
147

Brian M,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 07:53:28
maybe they should build a pramway instead of the tramway
148

You people annoy me!,

23/07/2008 09:54:27
#163 Gemma Swain

Oh, who's trying to be a clever little girl!! So what if my spellings rubbish!! Do you really care?! I cant be blessed in every department!

And it should be "not half as much" not "have" by the way! GTF that was rude, that hurt!!

You seem to be losing the point of discussion! Are you ok??

Thanks also for the correct spelling of probably,I have been wondering about that one, but ill stick with my version just now to annoy you!! xxxxxxx
149

Tobias,

Moredun 23/07/2008 11:29:12
Prams should only be allowed on buses if they pay the £1.10 fare
150

D Fiasco,

Borders 23/07/2008 12:07:00
Note to self: Don't use Lothian buses every again.
151

D Fiasco,

Borders 23/07/2008 12:08:46
Note to self: 'ever' should have been used instead of 'every'
152

Sue Taylor,

23/07/2008 14:34:06
There are two arguments here, that of the disabled and that of parents with babies. Disabled people with wheelchairs have wheelchairs because they need a wheelchair to get around. New born babies need prams as buggies are bad for the developing spine. Sadly, they too need their prams. What we have is Lothian Buses causing this whereby they are causing two groups to conflict against each other. People reading this either take the side of the disabled or side of parents. I take both sides and we should launch out full scathed attack at Lothian buses. Disabled people should have the right to get on a bus and parents with babies also should have the right. Get bigger spaces for both groups of people in society Lothian Buses? Personally it shows us all its far better to use our cars (if we have them). I would hate to be sitting with a baby if there was a crash. Funny that, no safety harness on buses for children but those with children are forced to use them for children in the car. Who would be to blame if the bus does the emergency stop and the baby goes flying?

Dangerous places buses, having to walk along the aisle while the bus is moving, no seat belts. You can catch all types of germs, how often are the pole handles cleaned, always clean your hands after being on the bus? I have known a few friends to be assaulted on buses and while waiting on the bus at bus shelters.

Lothian Buses you need to get a better plan, you claim to be there for all the people in society but you still discriminate.

153

You people annoy me!,

23/07/2008 15:05:46

#176

Amazing Sue! Thats exactly whats happening, and 2 spaces is exactly what we need!

Lothian buses, are you listening!!
154

Shooting from the lip,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 18:58:49
Ok lets get one or two things straight.

1. Buggies are allowed, Prams are NOT.

2. Buggies only have to be folded where a suitable space is NOT available. A space is deemed unavailable when it is occupied. If anything else is in space be it a dog, suitcase or pensioner then it is occupied.

3. The LAW, not Lothian Buses policy, the LAW says , when a space is occupied, the driver must ask the person to vacate it but cannot make them do so, and if they refuse then the driver should apologise to the wheelchair user and advised them to try the next bus.

4. It is the LAW which says public transport should be WHEELCHAIR accessible by the year 2012 . Please note it is a WHEELCHAIR space not a buggy /pram space.

5. Difference between a buggy and pram ? a pram has a seperate chassis and needs to be dismantled to be folded, a buggy doesn't . Lothian Buses has never allowed prams.

6. Finally ask your mum or dad how they got you from A to B in the days when very few people had cars and no buses where Wheelchair accessible. We only have to go back 7 years or so when Lothian Buses did NOT have such vehicles and people got about no problem then.
155

Shooting from the lip,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 19:09:28
Let me clarify point 2.

Its doesnt need to be a dog, suitcase or pensioner, but any Tom , Dick or Harry . Even Frank Bruno can sit there and the driver MUST ask him to move if another seat is available (though im not too sure the driver would be too keen to do so). I must emphasise though they can only be asked and no one can be made to move.
156

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 23/07/2008 19:29:23
So, what a lot of this correspondence shows is that far from being convenient, public transport is still decades behind in offering a flexible, timely and cost-effective service for all, including mums with buggies/prams etc.

Is it any wonder that the mums who can afford it drive their personal tanks?
157

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 28/07/2008 16:05:07
Ban mother and child spaces at supermarkets . Ban mothers from driving kids to school in 4*4s . Ban " baby on board 2 signs . and tell these mothers to lose weight .
158

SynchPedro86,

Leith. 18/09/2008 23:22:54
Pay no attention to Liz Barron, people. She is nuts. I used to work with her at a place called Instore. After I lost my job, she started a hate group on Bebo and denied me access to the shop, rendering me unable to see my two former friends, Ayanna and Craig. Her daughter called my house as well and got the police on my back.

 

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