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Nato bows to US pressure for nuclear shield on new EU soil



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Published Date: 04 April 2008
NATO leaders endorsed a controversial US missile shield for Europe yesterday, and US and Czech officials agreed on deployment of the first element – an advanced radar, despite strong Russian opposition.
US officials have confirmed a final communique on the missile defence system, parts of which will be stationed in Poland and the Czech Republic, and said the deal would "recognise the substantive contribution to the protection of the allies".

But allies did not take procurement decisions on a possible Nato add-on system to cover those parts of south-east Europe not under its umbrella.

Washington says the shield will protect the United States and its allies from attack by what it calls "rogue" states, such as Iran and North Korea.

Russia has described US plans to install ten interceptor missiles in Poland and a tracking radar in the Czech Republic as "destabilising", and said ordinary people in many European countries were sceptical of the need for it.

Russia regards the system as a threat to its security and sees the construction of the shield on the territory of its former Warsaw Pact allies as an intrusion into its sphere of influence.

One senior US official at the summit in Bucharest, however, said the confidence-building measures that Washington had offered Moscow "really blunted Russia's argument that this was dangerous to Russia".

Nato's secretary-general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, said the alliance had decided in Bucharest that "there is a threat" from ballistic missiles and "allied security must be indivisible in the face of it".

He also said Nato would order a report for its summit next year on options to expand missile defence protection.





The full article contains 287 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 April 2008 11:31 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 00:43:17
This article has a splashy title that isn't supported by any facts in her report.

- What pressure?
- How was this pressure exerted?

Did she intentionally not include the fact that both the Czech Republic and Poland have taken active pro-NATO positions and the only 'pressure' that they have been under is by their own peoples to ensure that they never again fall under an

A good investigator includes all facts, not just facts that support her story. Until she can raise the level of her 'investigating', perhaps the most she can aspire to right now is just 'reporter'.
2

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 00:44:57
"under an.. oppressive communist regime"

Computer had a hiccup...
3

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/04/2008 00:48:30
http://news.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AuJlWvF8o57R0WZpvNHLDK1bbBAF
Back to Story - Help
NATO backs Bush's missile defense system

For a more umbiased point of view
4

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/04/2008 00:50:58
Dáithí,San Jose
Don't you just love this headline.. !! There was no pressure.
What is with these people?
5

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 01:55:58
When things happen (like this) there are only two reasons, Lynne:

1. It was accidental
2. It was intentional

If it was an accident, then it's poor reporting, as I was willing to attribute it to.

If it was intentional, then you have to ask 'why'?

The answer - because the editorial staff think that this is what their readers want.

Remember, the media will always supply what they believe their readers want - true or not.
6

Carolyn 1,

04/04/2008 03:00:04
Lynne, and Dáithí,

I agree, esp. with this paper, but-
I think what you are not considering, as you should, is the 'diplomacy'. Whether or not the headline intended it as such, diplomacy is of great importance. Right now with the continuing problems with Iraq and Iran, the many elections and government changes on the horizon, diplomacy really needs a chance to work.

I've got a good friend who works with the Attorney General's office, he says that all the deals are hammered out in the anterooms before he even gets to the court room. Let's assume the same is occurring in these NATO talks. I hope these behind the scene talks work to hold the region in balance.

Russia and the US collaborate on many projects. Science, space, tech, climate, etc.
Russia and the US are friends, and we understand each other.
This headline is necessary to save pride for Russia;
as to whether the missiles go in? IMO, they're going in not because of Russia, but because of Iran, and Russia understands that. Hence the headline.


NATO will become an international DEA.
7

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 03:20:45
Carolyn1 -

All good points, Carolyn. Correct, the deals are all worked out before the 'Officials' arrive to finalize them.

I also agree with the rest of your statements - US/Russian collaboration etc.

Who knows, we might even see the day when the US provides defensive missile technology to Russia if the 'Radical Islamic Revolution' forces them to reconsider who their friends are.
8

gus1940,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 03:24:46
The evil empire strikes again.

No wonder Putin is rattling sabres.

9

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 04:16:18
It must be a Leftist European thing - cry about China imprisoning Tibetan separatists, but love Putin who murders Chechnyan separatists.

I guess that as long as Putin rattles anti-American sabers, he's cool, eh?
10

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 04/04/2008 05:09:55


Hey dudes,

Explain to me Dudes, w

What the evil Pres Bush would do, if Putin said we will install anti ballistic missile in CUBA and Venezuela to protect them from USA threats of attack.

no bull sh*t just give me a logical answer.

GC
11

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/04/2008 05:13:36
Dáithí,San Jose
Carolyn1
Both of you have good points. I just don't trust the Russians. Having visited that country when they still had an active KGB..I saw what they were capable of when it came to the Jewish population.
But, like you both said, all this is probably ironed out before the diplomats get there and sit around the old round table.
12

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 05:28:36
#10 - GC

That has already happened and a settlement was reached.

The difference here (IMHO) is that Russia will not resist to the point that the US did with Cuba, because Russia realizes that there is a genuine concern with Islamic Republics on behalf of both NATO and Russia and NATO defensive missile systems can be used in Russian defense against Islamic Republics too.

In fact GC, if you look at my earlier post I stated that someday we may well be sharing that same technology with Russia (see post #7).

Russia is posturing now, but I think that Putin is astute enough to leave the option of a Russian/NATO anti-Islamic partnership open.
13

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 05:33:57
#10 - CG

Not sure that I answered your question in a way you expected, let me put it this way:

The US would prevent it, just as they did in 1962.

Since the US navy is much stronger, and the Russian navy much weaker, than they were then, the Russian's don't have much of a hand to hold.

Besides, the Cubans would stop it - they are much more interested in the Yankee tourist dollar than they are in Russian missiles - as articles and discussion here on 'The Scotsman' have pointed out during the last week.

Missiles don't fill up vacant hotel rooms or pay the kitchen staff.
14

Maksim,

04/04/2008 08:32:20
Dear Lynne:

Thank you very much for writing “I just don't trust the Russians.” This statement clarifies things and makes me trusting less some of the Americans. Also in regard of your comment many Russians and other nationals would argue that after nineties Khodorkovski, Smolensky, Abramovich and etc. robed the country’s population by stealing all industries (built by hard and unpaid work of previous generations) and mineral resources of Russia.
15

Maksim,

04/04/2008 08:40:45
13 Dáithí,San Jose Please don't worry we will be able to find the way to withstand your navy. We saw these kids called US army...
16

Selgovae,

04/04/2008 09:13:04
Dáithí

"This article has a splashy title that isn't supported by any facts in her report."

That's true, but in this case the headline may be more accurate than the content. The report says little about the "possible Nato add-on system". Behind this phrase is the issue that the US proposed system doesn't go all the way to meeting NATO requirements.

Carolyn 1 "This headline is necessary to save pride for Russia;"

I don't think it's necessary. Instead they could have reported that entry of Ukraine and Georgia to NATO has been delayed, and which other newspapers have headlined as "Setback for Bush". Would "NATO bows to Russian pressure" have saved pride for the US?
17

Carolyn 1,

04/04/2008 13:09:59
In my opinion, NATO should welcome Georgia and the Ukraine with open arms, and the sooner the better; Croatia, Macedonia, and Albania asked to join and were accepted.

It doesn't stand to reason to reject the Ukraine- I think they'll be an excellent member, and a desired friend and ally on our side -but I am biased to any country who cut itself from communist control, was able to develop a democracy and a good economy after Soviet corruption and domination.

We can learn from these countries who succeeded and acknowledge their determination to better themselves.
Above all, the EU should not penalize them for it. France and Germany need to get over themselves- they do not dictate these small countries' future anymore than Russia does. They are independent.

The problem of the talks is the bad timing of the Ukraine's request to join a military alliance against Russia. It coincides with the Pakistani 'uncertainty' of whether or not they will aid in the hunt for binLadin, the kerfluffle of Kosovo, and the talks with Poland and the Czechs for the missile defense- Poland is getting some military goodies in exchange.

Does the reshuffle of economic and military allliance p-ss off Russia? yea- and that's probably not a good thing because they have more military money for build-up than we do. But that's the way it is when people or countries take sides in the natural evolution of progress and change.-
Russia needs to recognize it does not control these countries, NATO, or the EU.

Somehow, with the illusion that he is in control and doing us a favor, Putin will chose (is choosing) the western economy, not because he likes us or the EU, but because he likes the money.

The time is quickly approaching for Putin. He needs to choose between being friends with Iran to the point of selling Iran nuclear components, or being friends with the west and the western economy.

Putin wants Russia to be a recognized as the world power that it is; looking to the future, he
18

Carolyn 1,

04/04/2008 13:18:28
@16Selgovae,
The headline could have said, "Entry of Ukraine and Georgia into NATO is stopped by selfish and manipulative France and Germany"

If you don't like NATO, I assume you prefer the step back to imperialist fascism. Good luck on that, wear a helmet and vest because you'll be surrounded by friends and enemies who will kill just because they can.
19

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 04/04/2008 15:15:06
#18 Carolyn

"If you don't like NATO, I assume you"

I take it that was directed at me. I make a comment on your views on the headline being intended to save Russian pride, and you conclude I don't like NATO. Brief lesson in reasoning: just because someone thinks you're stupid, it doesn't mean they are against whatever it is you support.
20

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/04/2008 16:49:09
Maksim,
"The Russians" means the Gov't. I saw what was going on. I saw educated people not allowed to work at their professions because of their religion. I saw people who were denied visas because of their religion. I saw people who had very little, but who had doctorates.
I saw marriages break up, so the spouses could marry foreigners and finally get a visa to get out, and divorce and remarry their spouses. (most of the time). some decided to get divorced and go it alone in a new country.
Often we (Americans) have been told on these posts...it's not the Americans we dislike...it's their gov't. I feel the same about the Russian gov't.
Especially now, while people vanish mysteriously, and people are murdered by the Russian gov't.
21

Maksim,

Siberia 04/04/2008 18:30:42
Lynne:

Your message is some relief and I am glad that you distinguish ordinary people and the gov’t (I also hate cleptocracy and nepotism of modern regime) although I don’t understand why your attention is so much skewed to jewish, ukranian, Georgian population of the former Soviet Union. And other Americans often repeat this. According to you Russians lived always well but all other nations sufferred. But may I remind you who was Stalin? He was Georgian. Khruschov or Brezhnev who also were no good for Russia originated from Ukraine. When some commentators across the pond write about Lithuanians, ukranians, Georgians or any others they forget that ordinary Russians suffered even harder. (Please read Solzhenitsin’s recent article about this. I refer to him as someone respected in the west.) By this you alienate us against you. After reading comments in The Times and other similar papers I seriously started to think about what was my friendly attitude to Americans. Was it really a childish passion.
22

Maksim,

04/04/2008 18:50:55
Furthermore your gov’t supports this bad attitude to Russian nationals expressed in similar comments by distributing different crumbs among Poles, Estonians and others in the form of Nato / EU memberships and allowing non-visa travelling but making ordinary Russians as outcasts forbidding everything.
23

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 20:41:53
#15 - Maksim

>"We saw these kids called US army..."

Really?

- when they were airlifting supplies to West Berlin, ending a botched Soviet attempt to starve free people?

- when they were cheering as your 'Iron Curtain' came toppling down?

You're not in a position to look down your nose at anybody.
24

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 20:48:09
#16 - Selgovae

>"That's true, but in this case the headline may be more accurate than the content."

So her defense is that the content isn't accurate so she didn't bother to include it:

- and that she went ahead and forwarded an unsupported headline because she believed that this is what some people what to hear, even though the 'content' wasn't accurate?

You know, I believe you may be right.
25

Selgovae,

04/04/2008 21:16:21
#24 Dáithí

"You know, I believe you may be right."

I'm always right. :-)

But I didn't say she wrote what people wanted to hear. She may well have. But you said it, not me. I'd guess she wrote what her boss wanted to hear. Isn't that the way?
26

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 22:21:15
#25 - Selogvae

>"I'd guess she wrote what her boss wanted to hear. Isn't that the way?"

Too true! Shame though, that editors don't give people the credit for having the brains to review the facts for themselves.
27

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 04/04/2008 22:23:37
AmerUSAns are well meaning, but have a way of dragging us into their own foreign policy that I find obnoxious. The USA supported the horrifically oppressive regime of the Shah of Iran, working hand-in-hand with the notorious Savak secret police. Read Robert Fisk's book: "The Great War for Civilisation/The Conquest of the Middle East" for first hand evidence. The USA had no problem with the torture chambers of the Shah, and supplied huge quantities of advanced weapons to his ruthless dictatorship. When the Islamic Revolution occurred the USA was caught off guard. Among the shredded US Embassy documents painstakingly assembled by Iranian students were documents that proved that members of the US Embassy were indeed spies, and were indeed subverting members of the new Iranian revolutionary leadership, who were subsequently executed. The USA backed the murderous Saddam Hussein in the subsequent Iran-Iraq war on a massive scale, knowing full well that Saddam used chemical weapons and committed grotesque human rights violations. If I were an Iranian, I would loathe the USA, absolutely loathe it. But AmerUSAns do not know their history. All AmerUSAns ever receive in their colleges and universities is a carefully sifted diet, pulp fiction designed to cultivate unthinking, unquestioning, robotic patriotism of a kind that Europeans find moronic. AmerUSAns have no idea that their government denied a free and fair election to the people of Algeria and subsequently supported an Algerian regime that committed atrocities on a huge scale. AmerUSAns are entirely ignorant of what has happened to the Palestinian people over the years - the gradual manner in which Israel has stolen Palestinian land, driving them back, back, back into the ghettoes of Gaza and the West Bank, deliberately and utterly dehumanising them. AmerUSAns don't realise that poverty-stricken Palestinians have been robbed of their land so that rich AmerUSAn Jews can colonise it. The behaviour of the USA with regard t
28

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 04/04/2008 22:32:05
Part 2: The behaviour of the USA with regard to Israel's disgusting transgressions of international agreements and human rights has been shocking. The USA supported a 100% AmerUSAn Jewish committee to umpire the 1993 Oslo Peace Accord between Israel and Palestine. President Clinton must be clinically retarded to have agreed to this. The USA has cooperated fully with Ariel Sharon, a man who is internationally recognised as having been knowingly responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacres of Palestinian women and children, and who should have been facing charges like Milosevic. But AmerUSAns and the AmerUSAn media are absolutely hopelessly, irretrievably brainwashed. They understand nothing, nothing whatsoever of Arabs and the Middle East. They engaged in the wholesale, unnecessary slaughter of young Iraqi conscripts during the invasion, and din't even bother to note the names and details of those they had killed, discarding their bodies as if they had been stray dogs. Gen Norman Schwarzkopf doesn't even have a clue as to how many Iraqis he killed: maybe 100 000, maybe 200 000. To him they are not real human beings who had families and loved ones. For a hundred years the Iraqis carefully looked after Western Christian war graves, and the Coalition treated their own dead like road kill. I have no hesitation in saying that NATO should expel the USA. For extraordinary insensitivity and stupidity.
29

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 04/04/2008 22:45:51
And I also find the UK government's own subservient, obsequious relationship with the USA to be disgusting. As long as we are allied with a country which is led by such thick twerps, we are inviting terrorist attacks. If the UK government had any spine whatsoever it would tell the USA to stop its overt and covert unconditional support of Israel, and demand that Israel withdraw instantly from all occupied territories. That would be a good step towards normalising relationships with Islamic states and cooling temperatures a bit. Then the UK should demand that it and the USA establish two very large safe zones in Iraq, away from the cities, in order to receive refugees. One in the north, and one in the south. And then they should withdraw all their troops to guard the perimeters of these safe zones. But guess what? the UK too, is led by an inchoate, bumbling wretch, committed to deep knee bends to his liege lord in the USA, and eternal urban warfare in foreign countries. Mark these words: Iraq is today's Vietnam. The UK and USA cannot win this war, they can only save lives by protecting refugees.
30

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 22:58:04
27, 28 - Caora Dubh

>"AmerUSAns are well meaning, but have a way of dragging us into their own foreign policy that I find obnoxious..."

Oh, wahhh. I have no idea what country you are from, but the countries that are there with the US are because of their choice. France has just promised to increase their troop levels.

>"To him they are not real human beings who had families and loved ones..."

You have no idea how he felt, this is merely your 'straw man' - create a false caricature to your liking, then attack it and claim a 'moral' victory.

Then you post verbose tirades, hoping that the volume of words hides the lack of fact behind them.

Enlighten us - show us what you base your charge against Schwarzkopf?
31

Carolyn 1,

04/04/2008 23:00:18
Caora
Wow.
This wins a prize for foolishness.

I'll be kind and not blame you, your parents, your teachers or school system, -should I assume there are no history textbooks where you attended school, and the only books you do read are written by Hamas??
You poor poor thing.
32

SouthernGent,

04/04/2008 23:03:01
27-29

You might want to look inward before posting. It is unwise to assume and paint an entire population with a broad brush. Your generalizations remove all credibility from your posts.
33

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/04/2008 23:12:10
Maksim, I don't know where you get the idea I said Russians lived well. When I went to Russia, I went to show my children where their grandparents came from. We happen to be Jewish, and on that trip, we met "refusniks"..and others...sheerly by accident in the hotel.
Through them we met many more, and came to learn of their plight...to get out and settle in other countries and Israel.
So, to help out my family left all their clothes behind to people who had very little...we, along with some others on that trip, formed a foundation to help get them out...even if it meant divorcing the couples and marrying them off to others. I am sure things have changed since then..but at the time it took over a year to get those people out....and others. No where have I mentioned how they lived. In cramped apartments, sharing kitchens with neighbors...but a happy lot indeed. Who, when we went to visit them, offered us everything in their cupboards to eat. And believe me, if it wasn't going to be an insult to them we would not have taken whatever little they had to eat.
On subsequent trips there we we bring appliances and clothes.
I found the country to be be beautiful in many places. We were in St. Petersburg and Moscow..toured many places. We loved the train stations, and have never been to a greater circus than the Moscow Circus. With all this, we hope we made an impression on our children..to help others, and never take for granted what we have, or don't have...and always help where they can.
34

Carolyn 1,

04/04/2008 23:24:26
As I said previously, The US and Russia are friends, we understand each other, and there is an ‘unprecedented level’ of cooperation. Russia is choosing the west.

Proof: Former Russian military sites are being integrated into an anti-missile system.

This infers that the power seeking Ahmadinejad will be further isolated. This is good news in notching down the beat of the war drums.

I'm glad to have Russia on 'our' side and with the west, while at the same time Russia keeps its national identity.

No doubt, all this has something to do with the upcoming prediction/ announcement that Iran has missiles that can reach Russia???
35

Carolyn 1,

04/04/2008 23:33:29
I forgot to add that as proof of the mutual cooperation between countries, Russia designed and built the hull for the Sea-based X-band radar - which is part of the US Ballistic Missile Defense System.
36

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 23:41:41
#27 - Caora Dubh

>"All AmerUSAns ever receive in their colleges and universities is a carefully sifted diet, pulp fiction designed to cultivate unthinking..."

Fact - "Worlds 50 Best Universities"

"American institutions occupied seven of the top ten places, with Oxbridge the highest-ranked outside the United States."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article502784.ece

This is from 'The Times' of London. Being a positive kind of guy, instead of focusing on your negative, bitter rant against your own impotence and ingnorance, I'd like to congratulate Britain on getting 2 of the top 10 places, leaving the US with 7 (three of which were in California).

Even though British institutions didn't do as well as our California ones (Cal - #2, Cal Tec #4, Stanford #7), much less the top American ones, most Californians know that if you must go outside California, you might be able to get an adequate education in Britain.

Not in France (#27 and #30) and certainly not Germany (Heidelberg $37, less than Hong Kong).

Once Again, since you really have no facts but merely vent your spleen here on 'The Scotsman', any cursory sampling of your statements prove them mere bigoted, uninformed emotional drivel.
37

Dáithí,

San Jose 04/04/2008 23:44:33
That should be 'Heidelberg #37', not $37. I'm certainly not alluding that $37 is what the typical continental education is worth!

Sorry! ;)
38

Dáithí,

San Jose 05/04/2008 03:09:00
#28, #29 - Caora Dubh

Caora - Perhaps the reason that the continental European universities are recognized around the world as being inferior to American, Asian and Australian universities is because they have replaced education with bigoted and snotty Leftists.

Since you appear to be one of those, I'm guessing that you would ignore my link because it would prove you a fool - so here are the actual rankings:

Here are the top 10:

1. Harvard University
2. University of California-Berkeley
3. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
4. California Institute of Technology
5. Oxford University
6. Cambridge University
7. Stanford University
8. Yale University
9. Princeton University
10. ETH Zurich

Note the dominance of American institutions, which occupy seven of the 10 spots. The next 10, however, include institutions from six countries (four are American).

So even though posting your flawed dribble here on 'The Scotsman' may give you a chance to 'rage against your inadequacy', remember that people will examine your facts and happily point out your failings.

Your welcome. ;)

PS - Feel free to look further down the list to see where the rest of your 'haughty', but lesser, institutions ended up.
39

Maksim,

05/04/2008 03:26:30
23 Dáithí, San Jose

Personally I saw ‘em in Magas base, Kyrgyz. You know I'd say unimpressive! Absolutely unmotivated kids even did not know where they came to. An american friend working in Afghanistan is saying that the same is there. So please don’t threat us you, your navy or whatever are not as mighty as you show off.


You recalled Eastern Germany, well, should I remind “feats” in Vietnam?
40

Maksim,

05/04/2008 03:33:38
Lynne:

"I don't know where you get the idea I said Russians lived well."

I got it from your stressed attention to one particular group of the population.
41

Maksim,

05/04/2008 03:53:40
"But AmerUSAns and the AmerUSAn media are absolutely hopelessly, irretrievably brainwashed."

Good thing is that some Americans understand it. Although usually those who travel the world. I remember the reaction from my former US colleague who visited the US at the beginning of Iraq campaign and was stunned by mass support of it by ordinary citizens. He is indeed a very clever person and at that time was able to realise that this war would be huge mistake.
42

Dáithí,

San Jose 05/04/2008 04:00:28
#39 - Maskim

>"You know I'd say unimpressive!

1. They weren't there to impress you.
2. Your credibility is doubtful.

Sorry about that, but this is the internet and there are so many folks that make up stories that credibility is a joke.

Here's one:

A friend of mine was a news reporter in Afghanistan monitoring the Russian retreat on May 15th, 1988.

He told me that the defeated and retreating Russian soldiers were shooting themselves because they wanted to die painlessly before the Afghani's shot them.

Prove me wrong.
43

Maksim,

05/04/2008 05:49:11
Lynne:

Yet you depicted Russia as a country where living conditions were so poor that noone wanted to live. Partly it is true but I personally know many people and also jewish people who returned from the US. What they say is that clothes, furniture, fancy cars and even the fact that everything (incl. gov’t officials) works there more efficiently is not all what makes them to feel happy. Please don’t consider it as insult but they were unimpressed by the culture and mentioned they started to appreciate that Russians (of course general term meaning all nationalities which lived in the FSU) were not phoney.

Dáithí, Caora Dubh


I regard of university rankings I wish I was not so stupid to believe that my remuneration would be close to the average figure quoted in one of those FT rankings I saw before choosing MBA program. Comparing Russian/Soviet, British and US tertiary education systems sometime I recall a joke of my US professor who said something like US universities are good in terms of facilities, publicity and etc. but in their best they are the places where Russians (also Ukranians Jewish and others) teach mathematics and physics Chinese students…

42 Dáithí,San Jose

I am not trying to prove or disapprove something. I am just trying to express humble opinion that some people overestimate the power if their armies.
44

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/04/2008 06:03:15
Maksim..
Of all the people we helped get out of Russia at that time, not one has returned. They were "stressed" at seeing so much in our grocery stores..and it took a while for them to acclimate themselves.

I had gone into a regular department store in Moscow...not a state store..asking directions to a specific place..Red Square. The store looked like a scene out of the 30s and 40s...dimly lit and sparse in goods.

I am not knocking the country.. I learned a lot. We spoke to many students. I was even taken to the space center, and to schools.. The black market on jeans was huge..the biggest kick we got out of it, was when shopping, or eating, we would pay, and our change was in the form of gum..never money.
It was an education for us...but that was the whole point of the trip. Not to look at one part of the population.

45

Maksim,

05/04/2008 06:31:32
Lynne:

Indeed your experience is old. I know what you are writing about. Many of us were naive to believe that full grocery shelves would make us happy... (Now many think that those old soviet products scarcely available at that time in retail outlets were of much better quality and more natural or "organic" as they label it in TESCO.) But already in 2002 I and my friend from Novosibirsk being in the US could not find many reasons why groceries, malls, or any other retail outlets in Washington DC or Houston were better than those here and none why they could motivate anyone to emigrate.
46

Maksim,

05/04/2008 06:35:41
I think this formulation of the last sentence is better. Sorry.

But already in 2002 I and my friend from Novosibirsk being in the US could not find many evidences that groceries, malls, or any other retail outlets in Washington DC or Houston were better than those here and no reasons why they could motivate anyone to emigrate.
47

Carolyn 1,

05/04/2008 12:58:31
Lynne and Maksim

In the 1980's and 1990's when Russia first allowed a few individuals to leave, because of religion, is the period of time that Lynne is talking about. Her and I both worked with the organizations that helped Russians relocate and find jobs and settle in.
I lived north of Boston,- what I could do to help was provide a temporary job while they adjusted, I also donated money as I could. I'm not sure what Lynne's involvement was, or where but I think she worked much the same.

15 years ago, is not that long ago. Obviously Makism, you are young and part of the new generation of Russians who did not suffocate under Communism- you were free to travel- they did not have this freedom. Be respectful of what they endured and learn from it- do not take your freedom for granted.

I agree with you that times have changed, much for the better in Russia in the past ten years as Russia became more entrepreneurial,( open market capitalists some would say)- and I hope they continue.


I also agree with Lynne. One women I hired was a scientist who eventually became a professor at a local college,but first had to improve her English. So I gave her a job at my retail store. What Lynne said is very true- when she arrived she was overwhelmed by the amount of goods to buy and the choices of food most of all. She also had to adjust to the everyday kindness, and easy and trusting manner of people. In my retail store she was amazed by all the shoppers and nothing was ever stolen,- I think that was the most shocking to her at various levels.

Speaking for myself,(and Lynne probably agrees), I feel good that we helped others who asked, and we would do it again, regardless of the public opinion of us or our motives.
48

Maksim,

05/04/2008 15:05:28
Carolyn

Thank you very much. I talked to a really good friend of mine here Leonid about the evolution of our message exchange today and he is saying that we indeed should be grateful to you and Lynne for what you were doing. This is not because of the age between me and him (he is older than me) but because of his deeper understanding of what you are writing about. I join him.
49

Dáithí,

San Jose 05/04/2008 17:06:17
#45 - Maksim

>"But already in 2002 I and my friend from Novosibirsk being in the US could not find many reasons..."

Maksim, I don't think that you understand.

I'm happy for the Russian people and I think that most Americans are too. We're glad things have changed for the better for them, and as my posts state I think that their future lies with the EU and the West both financially and strategically.

My concern is that Putin's still appealing to a 'Russia vs THEM' mentality to build a nationalistic spirit - when I don't believe that the Russians need to see things that way.

Also, I dislike the 'disparage others to make you feel better about yourselves' mentality, anyone can find 'unmotivated' kids in any military if that is what you want to see.
50

Maksim,

05/04/2008 17:26:44
Daithi

Maybe you are right and I did get you right but

I find AGGRESSIVENESS in

Bush and his state secretary’s efforts to move nato eastwards indulged by their new satellites/vassals efforts to be sold at a low price (against the will of majority of their own population)

your comments in regard of weakness of Rossiiski Morskoi Flot and superiority of us navy AND SOME OTHER COMMENTS OF us commentators expressed not only here.

I don’t like Puttin and his corrupted co but I don’t like anyone diminishing to role and significance of my country.
51

Dáithí,

San Jose 05/04/2008 17:40:47
#50 - Maksim

>"your comments in regard of weakness of Rossiiski Morskoi Flot and superiority of us navy AND SOME OTHER COMMENTS OF us commentators expressed not only here."

Actually, my statement, in response to Russian missiles going to Cuba was:

>"The US would prevent it, just as they did in 1962.

Since the US navy is much stronger, and the Russian navy much weaker, than they were then, the Russian's don't have much of a hand to hold."

I don't think that this statement is wrong - that they US is stronger, and the Russian navy weaker, in comparison with each other, than they were in 1962.

My comments were in response to 1962 military positions.

My other positions, above, were to point to more (hopefully) US/EU/Russian cooperation.

I retain my contempt for communism, and I think that the countries ruled by the former Soviet Block have justifiable concerns about its return - do you think that they are wrong?
52

Maksim,

05/04/2008 17:51:59
Let me write about my appreciation of your hopes on further development of US / Russia cooperation. As a person who worked for a long time in different USG technical assistance projects I also do hope however in the light of Bush and co's behavior feel some concerns.

I am sure the countries of the former Estern Block have no grounds for any concerns as Abramovich and Co who possess the distribution of Russian natural resources have no interest to continue Soviet Union type of relations when the countires were more like a burden being freely suppliesd w/ oil and gas.
53

,

05/04/2008 18:01:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/04/2008 18:03:12
Carolyn...thank you for explaining it for me..you seem to have done a much better job.
The foundation I we established, believer it or not was under the name of St. John's. We arranged for divorces, marriages, and letters to go back and forth into Russia, proclaiming their love for each other, and eventual engagement, and marriage. Numerous trips for them into Russia..."to make it look good" and bring clothes, appliances and other things..odds and ends..like toothpastes and toilet tissue..some food etc.
We arranged for interviews for jobs here, and medical treatment for some..Most of them already could speak English, and one even got a job as a translater for a firm. Most were highly educated people, scientists and some doctors..but, we also managed to get out the "mere housewife" and husband..(if you remember..that is what JD likes to say)..
I feel really happy that we don't have to do this anymore, and they are free to travel where they want. I'm just a small stone on a big river bank in the help department..but it was a priliedge to do so.
I know you must feel the same way.
55

Maksim,

05/04/2008 18:21:07
The last sentence in my comment #53 is formulated in wrong way and does not seem to mean what was intended. Pls. disregard it.
56

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/04/2008 18:51:35
ok..I tqake you at your word.
57

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/04/2008 18:51:48
take
58

Maksim,

05/04/2008 19:51:41
yeah, "will NOT repeat" is meant
59

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/04/2008 20:56:25
Carolyn1
I remember in the 70's "Freedom for Soviet Jewry" billboards.. My youngest son twinned his Bar Mitzvoh for a boy in Russia, that we had tried to meet when we were there. But, that was not to be because of the KGB, and being followed and phone calls going to a central station. Instead, everything we got for that child was left with someone else who promised to bring it to him and his family. It was certainly an experience being there...and I would not have traded it for anything..(or the 2 weeks we were supposed to be on a cruise)..instead we did the Russian trip.
60

57Nomad,

californiad 05/04/2008 23:48:23
#10 CG

CG said:

"What the evil Pres Bush would do, if Putin said we will install anti ballistic missile in CUBA and Venezuela to protect them from USA threats of attack."

I imagine that we would be thinking, 'geeze, dont't these guys ever learn? We bankrupted and destroyed the Soviet Union with Star Wars, now we're going to bankrupt that moron Putin by having him spend billions of rubles to protect Cuba and Venezuela from missiles launched from where?"

Ecuador? Bermuda? Ah, ha! Canada's evil dream of hemisphere-wide hegemony thwarted by Putin! Take that, icicleheads! You thought you were going to get away with showering these two brave little countries with hockey pucks and moose droppings from outer space. Well, your not. Russian ABM's specially modified to tell the difference between real hockey pucks and moose dropping from decoy hockey pucks and moose droppings will shoot them out of the sky before your missiles clear the tundra!!

CG, if Putin wanted to put an ABM system is either of those countries we would send them a note of encouragement. Maybe an offer to just burn their rubles in an American power plant so they could skip the lengthy waiting process involved in wasting those rubles so inefficiently down in Latin America.


61

Audrey,

New Zealand 06/04/2008 04:09:27
Lynne

Wow, you were too generous and helpful. Well done, helping people to get out of Russia under the dreadful and fearful eyes of KGB! You really did risking your life there in so doing. Bless you.
62

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 06/04/2008 14:21:13
Audrey.. I never did anything so worthwhile. It changed my family completely... for the better.
The kids learned what "giving back" meant, and as old as they are today, they still do. If my husband and I did anything right, it was to take them with us.. We had a great time, had a true education, and became better for it. I have stories to tell my grandchildren, hopefully to make them better people!!
Propaganda piped into the headboards, rooms that were bugged, splitting up to take different modes of transportation..it was like living in a novel!! We had a great time!

 

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