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More women jailed: but should they really be there?



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Published Date: 13 February 2008
THE soaring number of women being locked up in prison was branded Scotland's "national shame" last night, as campaigners called for a change in attitudes towards the use of jail for vulnerable females.
A female prisoner in a cell at Cornton Vale prison Scotland's only female prison, after figures revealed Scotland's prison population had hit a record high.
A female prisoner in a cell at Cornton Vale prison Scotland's only female prison, after figures revealed Scotland's prison population had hit a record high.
Ten years ago, Henry McLeish, then the Scottish home affairs minister, pledged to reduce the number of inmates at Cornton Vale, Scotland's only women's prison, by half.

Instead, the figure has more than doubled – a fact that has triggered a national debate not just on female prisoners but about the future of the whole penal system.

In 1998, there were about 180 women locked up at Cornton Vale. Yesterday, there were 393.

Clive Fairweather, then the chief inspector of prisons, called a decade ago for urgent action to tackle the problem of mental illness that had caused a spate of suicides at the jail.

Last night, he said the jail had become "a victim of its own success", as it was offering a better way out for the country's most vulnerable women than inadequate and insufficient support services in the community.

Meanwhile, Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, branded the escalating female prison population "shameful", while experts lined up to call for more treatment services and better community punishments.

They said that would mean many women – who, they claim, pose no danger to others – would not have to be locked up, in some cases resulting in their children being taken into care.

The Scotsman can reveal that more than one-third of prisoners at Cornton Vale have been locked up for committing lesser offences, including defaulting on fines and resisting arrest.

However, a significant number have committed more serious crimes, including assault, while a small percentage have carried out, or been accused of, the most serious offences, including murder and attempted murder.

One campaigner for penal reform claimed the doors of Cornton Vale could be "thrown open" and nobody would be placed in danger.

John Scott, the director of prison reform group the Howard League, said: "The bottom line is anyone with mental-health or addiction issues should be treated in a sensible, humane way. At the moment, we don't operate like that, either in relation to women offenders or men and young offenders."

The focus has been on women in prison because of the unusually high prevalence of serious personal problems that have been blamed for their lives going off the rails.

A recent study showed that four in five of them are mentally ill, with half self-harming common, while 98 per cent have addiction problems and 70 per cent have been abuse victims.

Mr Scott said: "Women offenders have a higher concentration of these problems, but it is probably because of the fact there were so many suicides in the past and the fact they are a minority group that so much attention has been placed on them."

He insisted: "You could probably throw open the doors of Cornton Vale without people in Scotland being put in any danger."

However, others have questioned why women offenders should be treated differently from men who commit crime – and argue that prison is the right place for them.

Yesterday, Mr MacAskill visited Cornton Vale and said the problems there reflected fundamental issues across the whole prison system, with too many non-dangerous offenders being locked up.

But Bill Aitken, MSP, the Scottish Conservatives' justice spokesman, said: "I, too, visited recently but found little evidence of women being there who could have been dealt with in the community. Certainly, mental health is an issue, but some of these women would have been a danger to themselves, never mind the public, were they not in custody."

Mr Fairweather wrote a damning report on Cornton Vale in 1998, calling for the number of women held there to be halved.

Mr McLeish, then in charge of the Scottish justice system, said the findings were a "watershed", adding: "We now have a very clear agenda for action." He went on: "We can learn, and we are determined to do that."

Meanwhile, Mr McLeish has been given a second chance to act, having been appointed chairman of the prisons commission, which was set up by the Scottish Government to review penal policy and practice.

Mr Fairweather said last night that a combination of escalating drink and drug abuse, and a failure to provide decent treatment and support facilities in the community, had caused the number of women in prison to spiral out of control.

"It's a disgrace, a shame against the nation, that only ten years ago all parties concerned were determined to see the number of women prisoners halved, when it has, in fact, doubled.

"When I was inspector, the voices inside were mainly from Glasgow, with a few from Edinburgh. This reflected where the main drugs problems were. But now you hear voices from all across the Scotland, as the problem of drug abuse among women has spread like a stain.

"But it also reflects the growing problem of alcohol abuse – and the violence that is connected to that.

"There is whole range of women in there who are not a danger to society – but some are."

He went on: "In response to the suicides, action was taken to improve mental-health services within the jail.

"It has now, in a sense, become the victim of its own success. Sheriffs are sending people there in their best interests, because it's seen as the best place to sort them out."

Bernadette Monaghan, the chief executive of Apex Scotland – an organisation set up to help offenders into employment – said women in Cornton Vale had "fallen through the net".

She said: "Cornton Vale is not the place it was ten years ago, but women going into prison have got all the same issues. Sheriffs might well be responding appropriately to their behaviour, but nobody is addressing their underlying problems and issues.

"It's left for the prison service to do that, but they're not best-placed to do that."

She called for better community-service orders so women could be punished and have their problems addressed at the same time, without ending up in prison.

But Dr Andrew McLellan, Scotland's current chief inspector of prisons, cautioned against being "sentimental".

He said: "A growing number of women prisoners have been convicted of crimes of violence.

"About 20 per cent of the prisoners in Cornton Vale are serving long sentences: they should certainly be in prison.

"For the rest, we need to recognise how much their imprisonment injures their families, and how little good it does to the women themselves."

There is no escape from boredom and a sense of hopelessness

THE anti-ligature room is a stark sight. Stripped of even the spartan comforts one might expect to find in a prison cell, the room contains just the barest of essentials – a sleeping mat, a blanket and pillow, a toilet without a seat.

This is where the most vulnerable inmates at Cornton Vale are imprisoned, denied access to objects of self-harm or worse.

A visit to Cornton Vale removes any suspicions that a women's prison is one step removed from a holiday camp.

The original 1970s accommodation blocks, while not being dilapidated or particularly dirty, are claustrophobic and unwelcoming, filled with a palpable atmosphere of boredom and resignation.

The place reeks of cigarette smoke – the blocks are considered habitation areas and are therefore exempt from the smoking ban.

Music blares out from the cells, a deafening mixture of hip hop and techno, over which inmates laughter can be heard.

Looking inside the cells, the first thing that strikes you is exactly how small they are: barely two metres wide, the space is curtailed sharply by the presence of a bunk bed.

In one room, three women, possibly in their teens or twenties, sit impassively in haze of cigarette smoke, chatting inaudibly below the music.

One of them asks who has come to visit the prison and when told that it is the criminal justice minister, Kenny MacAskill, she looks unimpressed, commenting that she would like to know why remand prisoners are being mixed with convicted criminals.

The inmates look ill, sallow and dull-skinned, their appearance betraying other problems. Some have mouths filled with black, rotting teeth, a sure sign of drug use, while others have physical scars, signs of mental illness.

In the remand section, a clean modern hall which, if it was not for the heavy cell doors could be mistaken for an office, those who are awaiting trial talk and laugh like any other group of young women.

Most look like old hands, unconcerned by their surroundings. Other frighteningly young girls wander around, petrified at where they have ended up.

One teenage girl is dressed in a yellow T-shirt revealing arms covered with self-harming scars. Such is the extent of her injuries that it is almost impossible to discern the normal texture of her skin.

One woman says: "There's three of us to a cell. At night you wake up because it's boiling hot and your sheets are sticking to you. It's bloody terrible," she adds, before turning and marching off.



The full article contains 1529 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 February 2008 11:28 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish prisons
 
1

TheTerminator,

13/02/2008 00:45:07
Let punishment fit the crime.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/02/2008 00:47:15
"More women jailed: but should they really be there?"

Yes.
3

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/02/2008 00:54:17
They're in jail. How come they get to lay about wearing fashionable clothes, listen to their own choice of music and smoke cigarettes? Get them into uniforms, and give them lots of exercise and time out of doors. The exercise will have a positive effect on their physical and mental health, and make the time pass faster.
4

Mike Giggler,

13/02/2008 01:00:12
#4,

"How come they get to lay about wearing fashionable clothes"

Quite right. I'd give them Gitmo shellsuits, mate. Ant colour they want as long as it's orange!
5

Jimmy the Pie,

13/02/2008 01:01:50
More women jailed: but should they really be there?
What do you suggest politics instead???
6

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/02/2008 01:02:37
"Looking inside the cells, the first thing that strikes you is exactly how small they are: barely two metres wide, the space is curtailed sharply by the presence of a bunk bed."

What more do you expect in a cell?
7

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 01:05:27
There are far too many prisoners of both genders in prison. If they reviewed the system of jailing people for minor, non-violent offences, and providing alternative, appropriate punishments, spaces could then be used to jail paedophiles and dangerous criminals for life - and mean life.

Fine defaulting - if a person cannot buy a television licence, they are fined £1,000. When they can't pay that fine (unsurprisingly!) they are jailed. There are far too many instances where financial penalties are inappropriate, where a stint on community service would better serve the public interest.

And before the, theyshouldpaytheirtvlicence brigade start chuntering, it is a very high tax to pay for crap, especially when large hotels pay only a single licence fee to cover all their hundreds of tvs.

And if it's crime and punishment the article is about, why is Tony Bliar still walking free?
8

Harry Hotair,

13/02/2008 01:12:41
Roberta Burns,

You are a Johnston Press seeder.

You are THE WEAKEST LINK

Do one. I will deal with Karinxx and splashy later.
9

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 01:15:09
Was it something I said, Hotair? (well named btw)
10

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 01:22:43
Wow, dragonhead by name, dragonbreath by nature.

Well, goody-two-shoes, it's hardly surprising that you missed the point of the article - try reading it.

It's blind support like yours that enables the powers that be to create more and more restrictive laws - I'll bet you support a police state too.
11

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 13/02/2008 01:23:11
It's very nice for the professional hand-wringers to go chuntering on about "more treatment" and "better community punishment" - and for our ever-retiring politicians to go running to that limelight like randy mongrels but.........

We don't have "more treatment" and "better community punishment" for those who have been convicted of crimes that carry a custodial sentence.

So, would the professional hand-wringers care to suggest, start, fund and run those "more treatments" and "better community punishment" or is it simply easier to point at something and say it's broken.

Plus, why are these "more treatments" and "better community punishment" wished-for options only for female prisoners?

As for the argument that these are largely "non-violent" prisoners and, therefore, they should be let loose on the public, if one of our professional hand-wringers cares to supply his or her address and national insurance number, I'll show him or her how many "non-violent" crimes can be committed against them in the space of two days. Then I'll ask them again about prison for "non-violent" offenders.
12

,

13/02/2008 01:27:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 01:30:45
14# Your comments, as a backward american, are unsurprising.
14

,

13/02/2008 01:35:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

,

13/02/2008 01:43:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 13/02/2008 01:46:21
But Roberta you are not in Scotland ......... I would guess west coast USA ..............
17

,

13/02/2008 01:54:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Toots - Sheila,

Canada 13/02/2008 02:15:24
Time to remind some of those commenting above that 97% of the prison population is MALE. And if they were to "modernise" the prostitution laws (that is make it a crime for BOTH parties involved) the figure would climb to 99%!
Frankly there would appear to be some advantage to declaring the male of the species "redundant". Lets replace them with "sp-rm banks"! We have the technology! That should save quite a lot of public money when we get to close down 97-99% of the prison beds in the community.
19

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 02:43:47
393 women in Scottish prison - hardly a crime wave, but enough to bring the mysogonist slugs out from under their stones.

22# Gonads? At least women keep their balls tucked up nice and neat where no man can kick them.

And when you speak in this way about NATURE - you are clearly talking about the animal kingdom, which you appear to know plenty about.

And as for the mad Fyffer, get yourself a real woman. It'll do you the world of good.
20

Encephalon,

13/02/2008 02:43:59
Should they be there-YES-women are every bit as capable as men of committing crime especially if they are junkies.

As for reducing prison numbers-sort out the alcohol abuse problem and a very simple solution BRING BACK HANGING-an eye for an eye!
21

Banoo20,

Glasgow 13/02/2008 02:50:00
I imagine that if you took the bunk beds away there may a lot more space - just an idea.
22

Banoo20,

13/02/2008 02:53:21
# 24 - I am almost certain that a well recognised fact is that women don't, never have and probably never will have balls - to tuck or otherwise!
23

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 02:53:47
25# Sure, bring back hanging, flogging, quartering, ducking-stools. Now, that's how to deal with violent crime. Typical male viewpoint.

Low level crime by females could easily be dealt with by community service in old folks and children's homes, schools etc. where as well as working on behalf of the community they might learn useful ways to live once they are back in their own world.

22# But, I wouldn't hold my breath. At least I know that the views expressed on this forum so far are not the majority male view.

Your violent, bullying language shows you up for what you are. And since you brought the subject up. Yes, I despise Zionist Israeli terrorism. Without the big boys in the US who get them to fire their bullets, they would not exist.
24

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 02:54:50
27# They don't have to swing between your legs to exist, you know.
25

Encephalon,

13/02/2008 02:55:43
#24 the increase in women prisoners is but a symptom of a deeper malaise in society. It is precisely because the powers in this country (UK) have adopted misguided liberal attitudes such as your own in the past generation that we now have this problem.

In order to restore sanity to our criminal justice system and help protect the innocent citizen we need to make the punishment fit the crime-and start seriously topping a few bad un's to serve as an example to the rest. As for drugs -legalise (and tax) cannabis and execute anyone caught in possession of anything stronger.
26

Banoo20,

13/02/2008 03:02:37
~29 They do not exist at all - what you are expressing is bravery/ bravado/ a willingness to stand up for you thoughts - there are no balls.
27

Banoo20,

13/02/2008 03:04:34
This will get me in trouble - they don't swing - just dangle.
28

,

13/02/2008 03:04:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 03:05:56
The main issue is not about liberal attitudes, it's about the definition of crime. Crimes committed by certain sections of society, such as warmongering prime ministers, corrupt politicians, child abusing clergy, thieving bankers, tax-evaders, high-class hookers and junkies do not attract the same approbation as lower class shoplifters, tv licence dodgers and socially inept junkies.

When that is sorted out I might just support it.
30

,

13/02/2008 03:27:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 04:54:28
There is one very effective way to sort out the rising prison population - and that's to bring back the death penalty. It will prove very cost effective too - look at the money we will save. In fact I am sure that there will be so many getting hung, that we could probably shut down some jails, saving even more money. Instead we have the SNP solution "keep them in the community" - which will cause more misery to the likes of me - who suffer enough from the abuse of the feral youth of today. Roll on the next election and lets get the SNP out - they haven't a clue what the people of this country want.
32

somerferg,

oz 13/02/2008 05:07:14

Interesting story and I'm sure as usual the SNP government will work diligently to work out a solution in Scotland's best interests not as the previous lot would and did do i.e. lining their own and their mates pockets whilst never providing anything but a banaid solution.
As for the posters Dragonhead and Ross Fyffe - nasty potty mouths and huge generalisations seem to be the order of the day for you two. Please remember RF that these women do not spontaneously produce offspring their is male involvement though I note with interest that your venom is particularly aimed at the women - seem to me there may be some underlying issues with you that you need to deal with!
33

Conan,

Los Vilos, Chile 13/02/2008 05:19:53
I'm all in favour of hammering the ingorigables - the truly wicked, evil, mean and nasty - let them go to jail and die there - the sooner the better.

For the majority who end up in jail - they are truly victims of the social, ethical and cultural choises and standards our Scottish/British/European society has adopted as 'normal' for the past fifty years - getting so much worse as each year goes by.

For these, a Startan work-camp, demanding a 12-hour day of hard labour at least six days a week would soon reform them and make then unlikely returnees.

A wholesale cleanout of the likes of the housing scheme hell holes I saw again throughout Scotland over the past three months would also go a long way to getting people's minds straight.

I'm not holding my breath.
34

Trade-wind,

USA 13/02/2008 06:22:43
The problems faced by Scotland and America concerning women in prison are to be expected. Why? Well first its because prisons aren't bad enough. A prison should be a place you would do anything to stay out of, including obey the law. The liberals would have them do no punishment and that only make the problem worse. Why? Because the offending women aren't afraid of jail/prison. Its not a nice place! Big deal it isn't supposed to be. Jail was never meant to be the punishment anyway. The punishment was hard labor not laying around being bored. Jail was only the means by which the system could be sure the offender was there at six in the morning to start their day of hard labor.
Liberals like Roberta are afraid that if they punish people for committing crimes then when they (the liberals like Roberta) get caught red handed they would have to do hard labor as well. Kind of a self interest outlook. The justice system is broken alright! The liberals did it. But then they always screw up what ever they touch. You law abiding citizens might as well save your breath as to talk to her or her ilk. Throw then out of any job where they can make policy and the world will soon correct itself.
Do I here an Amen. Amen!
35

Jim A,

13/02/2008 06:44:24
#28 Roberta Burns, you said "Low level crime by females could easily be dealt with by community service in old folks and children's homes, schools etc."

Ok maybe it could but the thing is a lot of these women are repeated offenders and that's why they are in prison. Also giving them community service doesn't work as most of them don't turn up for it and aren't brought to account for missing the community service until the next time they are caught offending. I tell you this from experience of dealing with Corton Vale and I tell you Roberta most of the women in there (not all of them ) are as bad and nasty as the guys in male prisons.

You also said "Yes, I despise Zionist Israeli terrorism. Without the big boys in the US who get them to fire their bullets, they would not exist".

Hey maybe so, but long before the US was supporting Israel to the extent they are now, Israel the did a pretty good job looking out for themselves against Egypt, Syria and Jordan back in 1967 when all three countries attacked Israel at the same time. Only took six days for Israel to kick the crap out of those three bad boys.

36

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

13/02/2008 06:52:34
Jailing females? Called equality luv. Be careful what you ask for.
37

Gilmartin,

Philippines 13/02/2008 07:05:37
Sterilise them while they're in there then they won't come out and breed the next generation of neds.
38

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 13/02/2008 07:27:07
Jail them if society needs to be protected from them, or if other remedies have failed.
39

Done and dusted,

Musselburgh 13/02/2008 07:32:21
Perhaps community service could be asking offenders to comment on these Scotsman notice boards? At least it would bring a more balanced and informed view to the proceedings.
40

conservative,

Fife 13/02/2008 07:49:29
Of course they should be in prison. It's the only place where they can't continue their criminal activities. Remember that to get there they have to be seen as a threat to 'decent' citizens at large so why would anyone want them at large?

The big problem isn't the number in prison, it's the number that get soft sentences - fines they don't pay, community work they never do - for crimes which would see any man sent down straightaway.

There is little equality in our justice system, but it isn't biased against women..
41

Unimpressed one,

13/02/2008 07:57:31
Are we still locking women up in there for nonpayment of TV license (tax)?
42

K McDonald,

glasgow 13/02/2008 07:58:01
"More women jailed: but should they really be there?"

Of coarse not.....Female criminals are victims of "society". Women have no self-control, unlike their male counterparts (unless they act when drunk, then it is also the fault of society). Society made them do it. It is "shameful" to incarcerate drug addicted shoplifting mothers. Shameful! Mothers who commit such crimes are responsible parents and should not suffer the double whammy of losing their liberty and their children. Think of the children.

Tax the real perpetrators. Tax "society"! Build hotel prisons with the money raised. Problem solved.


Next subject up in the nutty government policy season: Why Paedophiles are misunderstood.....Why do law abiding citizens always rush to judgement.


43

The Super Woofer,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 08:00:00
Why feel sorry for these people? There is always some do-gooder out there bleating on about "the pain and suffering of these poor females having to endure incarceration". Meanwhile, Social Services are picking up the tab for looking after their 3 bairns whilst us dafties, the taxpayer, are picking up endless other tabs for prison (NOT rehabilitation it appears) comforts.

Do the crime, do the time. I don't care if you are male, female, in-between, black, white, purple. Get off my streets and make me feel safe.

Tougher sentances are an absolute must. Judges are even saying that they are sorry that they cannot offer greater penalties at times due to 'maximum term guidelines'. For the sake of the Big Man Upstairs, if a Judge can't bang you up for a maximum shift in the interest of the public, let's pack up and go home!
44

The Super Woofer,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 08:01:18
#49 - PLEASE TELL ME THAT YOU ARE ON THE WIND-UP? (I make no apologies for the blatent use of my CAPS LOCK!)
45

Scottie,

South Africa 13/02/2008 08:02:29
38 - Women aren't 'equal to men', they're a lot better than them! Which gender does most of the crime, which gender does most of the raping?
46

Louis Catorze,

13/02/2008 08:08:13
"And before the, theyshouldpaytheirtvlicence brigade start chuntering, it is a very high tax to pay for crap, especially when large hotels pay only a single licence fee to cover all their hundreds of tvs."
Well #8, if you can't afford your TV licence, sell your TV. It's that simple.
47

The Super Woofer,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 08:12:35
#52 - That doesn't however mean that Wummin-folk can run amok in our streets.

The 2001/02 British Crime Survey found 19 per cent of domestic violence incidents were reported to be male victims. Something that never seems gets reported on. This figure is of course understated as Men are extremely reluctant to report this sort of crime as they feel weak reporting that they have been duffed up by their missus.
48

K McDonald,

13/02/2008 08:13:28
#51 The Super Woofer,

#49 - PLEASE TELL ME THAT YOU ARE ON THE WIND-UP? (I make no apologies for the blatent use of my CAPS LOCK!)


I am. We have been "Dianified" to the extent that us Scots are being told that criminals are victims. I do not understand criminals nor do I want to. I want people to take responsibility for their actions and to stop turning the finger of blame on to others.
49

The Super Woofer,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 08:19:22
#55 - Phew! Obviously a bit early in the day to notice the satire! "Dianified" - I like it.

Yes, you are spot on - Our Blame culture (copyright New Labour) is a disgrace.
50

carrottop,

Dumfries 13/02/2008 08:25:09
Equal opportunities, enjoy.
If you cant do the time, dont do the crime.
51

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

13/02/2008 08:29:06
Of course you should be jailed for not paying your tv license.

If they didn't jail you, here is what would happen... The middle classes would start behaving like the smegs on the estates. Do you think you can find time to take 60,000,000 citizens who've had it up to the back teeth of being taxed, taxed, taxed and getting back nothing? Of course not.

What we need to do is jail more people, not less. Jail them for minor assaults that way in 20 years two things have happened.

1) The Gene is back in the bottle (right now we don't have the resources to try every ned and this creates more crime.)

2) The stinking criminal has lost the child. Good. One less ned for me to have pay brew money to. (50% of children raised in benefit only households in weegieland)
52

thinking,

Scotland 13/02/2008 08:49:28
#7
Sounds about the size many elderly have to put up with in Care Homes, and they haven't committed any crime!!
53

Mikey,

13/02/2008 08:50:24
Hmm, the misogynists and gene pool rejects are out in force today!

I believe in the punishment fitting the crime. Jail men and women equally. If you can't do the time etc...

As for Dragonbreath, just try criticising you beloved Chinese government in public and see where that takes you.

As for the hang em and flog em brigade, I can think of ten reasons why hanging should never be brought back. The Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six. There are loads of others as well. Perhaps if the proponents of hanging were fitted up because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, they would all of a sudden change their tune?

Make prison hard. Make it a place that you DON'T want to go back to! Even then, there will still be criminals who will think that they can get away with it.

We have a societal problem in Scotland and until we tackle that, the prison numbers will keep rising. My mother used to tell me about a boy who was in her swimming club when she was a kid. He was convicted twice of theft and the secong time was sentence to ten strokes of the birch. According to her, he never stole again and eventually ended up as a councillor in Embra.

Now I don't know whether corporal punsihement would work or if the old German solution of army penal batallions would work, but we do need some fresh thinking!

I do know that misogyny and 'kill em all' will not work. That is just the ravings of the crazy!
54

Media 1,

cape town 13/02/2008 08:52:12
I dont think the problem is the lesser offenders! I think the problem is the fact that rapists, murderers and armed robbers are being freed....
55

conservative,

13/02/2008 08:59:33
#6 Mikey

Do you honestly truly believe that the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six are/were innocent. You are easily taken in.
56

K McDonald,

13/02/2008 09:04:17
Super Woofer

>>>Our Blame culture (copyright New Labour) is a disgrace.<<<

This is a cross party issue. Sadly the reverse culpability meme has infected all the mainstream political parties - NuLab, NuTory, SNP, Libdem. No matter who we vote for we will get the same cop-out solutions: Too many criminals, too few prison places, too difficult to solve...Solution is blame "society", release the criminal to commit more crimes.

Kenny's department should be renamed The Scottish Ministry of Justice for Criminals
57

Slasher McGurk,

Corton Vale Cafe 13/02/2008 09:11:43
if you make the choice to dance with the devil, prepare to get burnt feet. These women broke the law, they made the choice to take drugs, they were stupid enough take that fork in the road, let them pay and pay hard. Prison should not be a holiday camp, it should be tough, it should be a punishment.
58

Loki - The Scourge of the Schemies,

EH1 13/02/2008 09:16:57
String 'em up, guv! It's the only language they understand. (Copyright: The SUN).
59

A B Bluewell,

UK 13/02/2008 09:27:53
#60 Mikey - at last the voice of reason. Thank you for a more intelligent and reasoned response to the article.

I believe:
We all have choices in life and must answer for our actions.
Equality is good - and cuts both ways.
There is a more reasonable middle ground than 'string'em up' or 'let them get away with it'. This is just the same continuum taken too far to its extremes.
60

M.T.,

13/02/2008 09:31:37
Any truth to this situation?

On Friday, a prostitute is sentenced to 7 days in Corton Vale for working. Arrives at Corton Vale where the sentence is automatically reduced by half to 3.5 days. Prisoners are not kept in jail for half a day so the sentence is reduced to 3 days. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. A prisoner is not released from jail on a Sunday so she is sent home on the Friday and given £40.00 expenses.
61

M.T.,

13/02/2008 09:34:02
Any truth to this situation?

On Friday, a prostitute is sentenced to 7 days in Corton Vale for working. Arrives at Corton Vale where the sentence is automatically reduced by half to 3.5 days. Prisoners are not kept in jail for half a day so the sentence is reduced to 3 days. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. A prisoner is not released from jail on a Saturday or Sunday so she is sent home on the Friday and given £40.00 expenses.

(Omitted Saturday)
62

Mr H 2u,

Embra 13/02/2008 09:34:05
It's thirty years of "more treatment" and "better community punishment" that has brought this country to the despicable state it's in. If you crack down on lawbreakers early enough, they get the message. Treating them with kid gloves and telling them it's not their fault just encourages them to think that breaking the law is perfectly acceptable. A Scandal & A Disgrace.
63

Mac007,

Kinross 13/02/2008 09:51:52
A fairly gender-biased report. If the position that women are generally sent to prison as victims of circumstance, then is this not equally true for men and boys? The male prison population in Scotland is pushing 20 times the female population - how is this not a national scandal? Men are bad: Women are poor souls??

The Howard League for Penal Reform has a similar stance in respect of all offenders - not just women; ie there are far too many imprisoned. This was not reported.

Prison tends to be counter-productive in reducing crime no matter what regime is employed. Politicians know this but pander to society's "punitive obsession" to secure votes. At 30k+ per prisoner place per year (and considerably more for women) there needs to be a national debate on imprisonment as a punishment - for women and men.

64

Number 6,

Germany 13/02/2008 10:02:52
Punishment for criminal activity must not be gender specific. These women have committed crimes that carry a custodial sentence. The mothers amongst them should be disgusted with themselves for what they are doing to their children. many are unfit to be mothers and the kids should be remove from these households all together. We must stop treating criminals as victims of society. It's the people they prey on that are the victims,oh and of course, the poor kids they leave behind.
65

morris,

edinburgh 13/02/2008 10:10:39
Whilst we are obviously always going to look at prison populations (numerically),and thats usually the only information we have available,it is surely the case that whether some one should, or should not, be in prison, is an individual assessment. I have no idea how many are in there, nor do I care really. Individually, is slightly different in my opinion.

If its for shoplifting in an attempt to feed your kids,I have some sympathy.(1st offence)
If its your third offence,I have LESS.If its drug related I have the perfect cure.Solitary cold turkey.It's hell probably but it works by virtue of you having no choice in the matter.
If you were violent,I really don't care.They can stay there forever as far as I am concerned, in the public interest.Sod assessing their suitabilty for release.They already demonsrated their suitabilty for locking up!
We hear a lot of complaints about conditions in prison.
You should consider yourselves lucky that you can complain!
Personally I really don't care that much,with very minor exceptions.
In fact instead of robbing the public purse,have graded prisons.The run down ones we dont need to spend money on WE WANT SOME WHICH ARE REAL NASTY PLACES.I would not have slopping out though,That is someting which I think should be ended if it has not already been.

You earn the right to serve your time in one of the more acceptable ones.You start off there on your first offence also. Second offence and its to the absolute pits,and unless you demonstrate a desire to deserve better,effectively competing for a place , if you like,then you stay there.We need to start punishing and rewarding prisoners,not sending them for a wee holiday .Most people reckon the reasons prisons don't work is because they are far too soft and comfortable.I tend to agree. These people don't deserve anything more than basic rights.They forfeited them when they offended.WE already pay for their keep. Personally I would convert prisons into prison-factories,where th
66

D PATERSON AKA ERIC LOTHIANS,

13/02/2008 10:11:10
roberta burns is exactly, The type of tree hugging, Left winger, Spare the rod and all that type, That has brought this country to its knees
67

Iain's,

13/02/2008 10:13:03
The UK is notorious for locking up people who would not be put in prison a in any other European country.
We lock up the mentally ill, drug addicts, 'sub normal' people, blacks, and so on, on trivial and false offences.

There is also a massive criminal justice system to help steal the children, and 'treat' such people. This system is staffed by self-seeking people who are above the law and exist only to live off the tax payers.

We all know of target driven police.

I know of a guy who had a nervious breakdown after being attacked for a second time by the same individual. His wife called for medical help. As it was the weekend, no professional help was available. The police arrived to find the poor guy in the midst of a full-blown breakdown and panic attack. He was arrested, refused proper medical care, thrown in a cell.
He pleaded guilty ( on medical advice) of threatening a policeman who entered his home uninvited and received a criminal record and 2 years probation.
Three years later, he still is too frightened to go to work.

Great stuff.

We get the police and criminal justice system we deserve.

Filth!

68

morris,

edinburgh 13/02/2008 10:14:47
73 Continued
Personally I would convert prisons into prison-factories,where they earn their keep by manufacture.If they don't work,they don't eat.Cruel? ITS WHAT YOU AND I HAVE TO DO.If its good enough for a law abiding citizen I'm BL**DY SURE its good enough for a law breaker.It also could provide some training for when they do get out, and maybe they can try their hand at being an asset to society,rather than just an ass.

We have always been held back by finance according to successive administrations.Who said we should pay anything ?Make them self financing or as near as possible.The money they earn can subsidise the cost of keeping them there,and expenditure on prisons should be minimal.At one time we jailed people for being poor! I'm not suggesting we ever return to doing that,but surely we can punish people for being a drain on society!

It reminds me of a threatened strike by Prison Officers.
A spokesman for the Prisoners promised that if they did walk out, they could rest assured that the prisoners would be right behind them to a man!
69

Mikey,

13/02/2008 10:15:04
AB Bluewell, thanks for that.

conservative, do you doubt your own law? Or do you believe that only laws that you're comfortable with should be obeyed? Just what grounds do you have to believe the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four were guilty?
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Mikey,

13/02/2008 10:16:46
74, what has brought the country to it's knees is lack of education, ably pointed out by your submission!
71

Fabius Maximus,

13/02/2008 10:17:14
Too many people are sent to prison because neither the justice system, the health service, or the social service systems have come up with any other way of dealing with them. There are men an women in jail who are there because they feel safer and more at home in jail than they do in their dysfunctional families and fractured communities. People given long sentences say that the first two years are hell, but then you begin to adjust, and derive a sense of security and community from prison.

If your liberty is intolerable, how on earth can depriving you of it be a punishment?

In Germany, people who are weekend offenders - like football hooligans and binge drinkers - are detained at weekends, but do their normal jobs and contribute to sociaet thhrough the week. They even have to contribute to the cost of their weekend incarceration. That is real punishment, and it is effective deterrence.

And I agree that there should be no smoking, or drugs, or alcohol, or sex, in jail. The food should be better than it is, so that prisoners look forward to it when inside, and can learn how to make it for when they're outside.
And for those not suitable for day relese to work in their normal jobs, there should be work programmes with training and development opportunities for inmates, and useful outputs for society too.

72

Jed Zeppelin,

my cloud 13/02/2008 10:23:45
...well, they did bleat on and on and on about EQUALITY - so whats the frickin problem here? Get 'em jailed quicksmart - a crim is a crim - no matter their gender.

For the record a close relative of mine worked in Cornton Vale until recently and he said it is, by far, the worst of all scottish prisons to work in, mainly because the inmates are female and more sadistic and vicious than any he has encountered elsewhere - and bearing in mind he has worked in Shotts, Bar L and Perth, that is some claim...

I don't care about what gender you are - commit a serious crime, then it's off to the chokey for you.

The irony here is Jail is NO deterent to these pond life. It's just another branch of their social life.

It is only a deterent for decent, honest hardworking folk.

Time to make imprisonment something to be FEARED by the criminal community, then they might not be in such a hurry to get back there...
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13/02/2008 10:27:17
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13/02/2008 10:30:56
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13/02/2008 10:32:38
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Paddi,

13/02/2008 10:40:59
Another liberal handwringing "initiative" there are 1.5 million adult women in Scotland. Is it "shameful" that there are fewer than 400 in prison? If they’ve broken the law then they have to pay the price. We have seen crime explode in the last 10 years in the UK. What out elected representatives should be doing is building more prisons and employing more hard working prison officers. Instead we get bleeding hearts when really we know there isnt the money.
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morris,

edinburgh 13/02/2008 10:41:12
82

Look up IF in the dictionary please.I agree that most shoplifters do so to feed their drugs habit or just to get some money for drink or just for profit.
From the rest of my post it should be obvious that I made an exception there,and do not suggest that every offence of shoplifting is so.I started by saying each one offender must be treated individually. Comment by all means but READ WHAT I SAID FIRST!
Where there is habitual offending I agree with you.

I was demonstrating that there may be individual
exceptions.Most people would understand that since thats what I said .In general however I agree with you.
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13/02/2008 11:02:57
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13/02/2008 11:12:50
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13/02/2008 11:14:14
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Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/02/2008 11:19:19
Isn't it sexist to demand special treatment for women found guilty by the courts?
82

Destroy the Planet,

13/02/2008 11:27:41
Jeezuz, help ma boab, theres some seriously deranged individuals commenting on these boards. Its getting very scary, hateful and spiteful indeed (#35 and #38 are unbeleivable in there nastiness). Does the Scotsman attract these people like flies roond the proverbial these days, never seen it in the Herald, more akin to some far right extremist board than a Scottish daily now. Or do they spill this vitriole do cover up for there own inadequacies, anyway regards the subject, yes they should be there, i suppose, its the law.
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yolanda,

13/02/2008 11:27:51
The point really isn't about gender. It's about whether those in prison are in any way being rehabilitated. If they are left to sit around, bored, listening to music and smoking fags, it's unlikely that there is any benefit to either society or to the prisoners themselves. If prison is deemed to be the appropriate method of punishment for an individual (which in my opinion should mean they are a danger to society), it should involve some sort of education and rehabilitation. It appears that many of those who have been locked up learn nothing from it.
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truthsleuth,

13/02/2008 11:30:14
#89 Urban Guerrilla,

God Man don't say things like that.
The truth is what really narks the sexist pc lot.

What surprises me is that the female Equal Rights lot don't write saying they demand Equal rights to a jail sentence as male offenders get.
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SILVANA,

glasgow 13/02/2008 11:32:13
DRAGONHEAD: 3 cheers, It is the likes of Roberta, who, I am convinced, is deranged and definitely a candidate for the Nazi party that contribute nothing but bile to the debates online. She has stopped me from posting for quite a while as I usually felt sick after reading her verbal diaroeah. With regards to your comments re the article, I am again, in agreement.
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13/02/2008 11:46:21
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The Master,

13/02/2008 11:57:42
“One campaigner for penal reform claimed the doors of Cornton Vale could be "thrown open" and nobody would be placed in danger.”

Here we go again: the old chestnut that women’s crime isn’t real crime! Sorry, but haven’t we just be reading that there are some who are guilty of assault and murder among them? I know myself that I’ve come across several women (my ex girlfriend among them) who are far more vicious and unbalanced than many men! Why is Kenny MacAskill perpetuating the myth that women are the gentler sex? I’m with Bill Aitken, the Tory spokesman, on this one!
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13/02/2008 12:03:10
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Memyself&I,

13/02/2008 12:06:12
Yes, they should be in there - don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Build more prisons if the current ones are capeable.
Why the hell does is matter if its women or men? Why as a society do we always treat the sexes so differently? Its bizarre.

This is not Scotlands shame.
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redfergus,

Primrose Hill 13/02/2008 12:12:51
Why is it, pray, that the hang-'em, flog'em, lock-'em-up-forever, make-'em-wear-costly-uniforms brigade posting here are, almost to a man (yes, man), functionally illiterate? Is lack of decent schooling something to do with their ill-considered attitudes? Does their inability to spell, punctuate and reason effectively have any connection with their inability to present a rational argument?

And do those things have anything to do with their total lack of compassion for the unfortunates among us?

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Destroy the Planet,

13/02/2008 12:14:56
Theres also something very strange going on here re Dragonhead. Have a look in future, he's allowed his comments however mad they may be, and notice how theres always a comment later on (this time #93) that is always 'wholly in agreement with his comments', but every time Dragonhead comments ? Somethings up
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SILVANA,

glasgow 13/02/2008 12:21:37
>99 I am a female and I live in glasgow and I WAS agreeing with DragonHead.
There is nothing up except your own mistrust and paranoia.
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Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 12:24:20
Well, well, well, this is certainly separating the men from boys. I know Scotland is a 'man's a man for a' that' type of place, but please gentlemen, your mysogony is primitive. My friend Rabbie would never have supported your views on women. Shame on you.

Dragonbreath, Fyffe and others - would you like your mother or your granny to see the bile that you have written? They'd probably slipper you for your being nasty little runts. Go get an education and come back when you know how to have a debate.

As for my comments on female criminality, I was commenting on the article - I thought that was what this forum was for. And, my point remains, there are far too many women AND MEN, in the prison system while the likes the bliar and 'superior class' cronies get away with, not a slap on the wrist, but a knighthood!
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SILVANA,

glasgow 13/02/2008 12:31:50
ROBERTA> WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM.......WHY ARE YOU SO ACIDIC???

THIS IS A GENUINE QUESTION
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Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 12:48:26
102# Acidic? Pray explain, Dragonbreath
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Mac007,

Kinross 13/02/2008 12:57:33
These news articles always attract the more punitive "hang-em-and-flog-em" comments. There are prisoners in the system today who went through Glenochil's Detention Centre "brisk regime" (now that was hardcore!!)and claim to have enjoyed it - 20 years on they're still with us. Harsh prisons do not deter any more than progressive ones: we've been there.

We need to think out of the box on this one. Prisons are like roads and cars - the more you build ...

The staff of the Scottish Prison Service have to keep those sent by the courts. The more that arrive, the less opportunity they have to deal with the minority who present a real danger to society.
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Nellie,

Liverpool 13/02/2008 12:59:54
Bill Aitken...said: "Certainly, mental health is an issue, but some of these women would have been a danger to themselves, never mind the public, were they not in custody."
Quite so, but PRISON is not the sort of custody these ill women (and equally similar men) need! They require hospitalisation, in secure psychiatrict hospitals/units, not prison where they will receive little or no treatment at all!
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 13:01:00
So you can smoke in prison, but not in the pub.
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13/02/2008 13:04:44
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Mac007,

Kinross 13/02/2008 13:04:53
#107

No - you can smoke in your own cell and in the exercise yard. Staff can't smoke on duty.
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13/02/2008 13:05:15
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Darren, Edinburgh,

13/02/2008 13:06:48
Roberta Burns - I have read a number of your comments. I respect your opinion - Your comments are all well and good in an ideal world. The trouble is that a number of people are in the prison system because they do not pay their fines or do their community service. How else do you tackle those that persistently fail to attend community service or pay their fines (but can afford to smoke, drink, take drugs) Its about the freddom of choice. A number of people are also in the prison system because they have committed numerous offences over many years. Prison should be about a combination of punishment, education and rehabilitation. Unfortunately prison doesn't address any of these at the moment. Woman should not be treated any differently to men. All know the consequences of committing crime and people should not be treated differently dependant on their sex.
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Nod,

13/02/2008 13:09:39
107- prisons not a public place, you can smoke in your living room cant you? or does yer wife threaten you with a hammer?

back to the article.....equal opportunities !!
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 13:11:19
109
Mac007,
Kinross 13/02/2008 13:04:53
#107

"No - you can smoke in your own cell and in the exercise yard. Staff can't smoke on duty."

Thanks Mac007. I've decided not to go to jail after all.
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 13:13:18
112 Nod

So a prison's not a public place? Bumfluff. Members of the public go there. Warders enter cells where people smoke. But as you said, back to the article.
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 13:14:03
Back to the article Nod. Equal ops.....we want to smoke where we please.
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Allan(handofgod137),

13/02/2008 13:40:13
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
PS, We definately need at least one more female prisoner, Wendy Alexander.
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13/02/2008 13:44:11
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13/02/2008 13:47:02
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The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 13/02/2008 14:06:43
Presumably having been through the courts and gone through the legal process, yes they should be there. If they are mentally ill to the extent that they are a danger to community or themselves they may have to be somewhere else, but it would have to be secure and probably a locked psychiatric ward would it not? Not sure if this is what the appeasers want really, maybe just to throw open the gates and let everyone out.

The dangerous assumption being made is that since they are women, these prisoners must be pretty harmless really - a threat to no one. But it would be worthwhile for completeness to carry out an audit of what their victims' points of view were.
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13/02/2008 14:06:58
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:07:28
WeeBerty

I don't think it's a female. Eunuch maybe, but female no.
(He's also doing this to get folk riled...he can't possibly mean it can he?)
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13/02/2008 14:09:25
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:10:13
117
WeeBerty

There is a poster on the threads who steals Ayrshire Scot & Nova's IDs - if that's what you mean.
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13/02/2008 14:12:31
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13/02/2008 14:13:57
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:18:55
125 & 126 (WeeBerty)

What got YOU all worked up? Yeah sure..I'm Tim..what a laugh. Any time Tim comes on and I have a go at him he gets all argumentative. Get real.

Maybe YOU are Tim......
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:19:18
...and it's a troll - not a trawl.
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Mirrorman,

In the Night Garden 13/02/2008 14:20:37
What's gender got to do with it? You commit the crime you pay the price.

I don't see any mention of calls for change in the way vulnerable males sent to prison, and yes there are plenty, are treated.

Given that women have fought so tenaciously for 'equality' over the last few decades I don't see why an elected Government should now deny them their citizens right to go to prison or is there a self service menu of women's rights?
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walter,

13/02/2008 14:21:55
They are in prison because they have committed a crime, if they obeyed the laws of society that the majority does then they would not be removed from society.

#107
Did you not know that if you have a plumber working in your house then you cannot smoke as that becomes his/her place of work.
That means you cannot smoke anywhere in the house while they are there, you cannot smoke in your sitting room while they are in your bathroom or kitchen.
But prison officers do not have the protection of the law that other workers have, criminals are allowed to smoke in the work place of the prison officer.
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:24:56
BYW Wee Berty

You are the same poster who bombarded the Herald about Argowan school...remember? You also took a flakie on a Scotsman thread in March last year about the same issue.

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3355848&bad=461772
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/02/2008 14:25:02
To all doubters.

Yes, I am a REAL male - with all the right equipment - and it is put to good use with my many lovers.

I DID do it to get posters "wound up". I was a BAD boy!

Of course I do not believe what I posted and most of my best friends are women.

I am not a drag artiste, have not had "sexual reassignment" and am a feminist - men CAN be feminists and stick up for the inalienable rights of women.

Are we all now clear on ALL matters pertaining to me? Certainly do hope so.
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:26:32
130

Yes I know this.....and if a gardener comes round from the council, you can't smoke in your garden either.
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:27:21
132 Tim

WeeBerty thought I was you. LOL
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 14:58:29
Fags go soggy in a sauna Dark Side.
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Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 15:08:52
On my way back from Coldstream last night to my Letterfinly estate outside Fortwilliam, i thought i would take a shortcut and fly over Leiths Salamander street to check out the talent.

Well hell sweet holly Mary of Nazareth!! What a shock this bird of prey got, hell yes ...This was real Corton Vale stuff strutting along the kerbs. As i fluttered down to have a closer look at my fright i asked my self, "who or what would touch that?"

This horrendous thing looked okay from the back but when it turned round, bloody hell it was 67 years old and was donning a mini skirt and Nike pro baseball cap.

She asked if i was interested in a quickie, i said to her very politely that i only had 10p on me and i needed that for some twigs....This is the sort of stuff that should be locked up, i spewed all the way back up to my very Substantial estate and i will never fly over Leith again....Aberdeen docks???
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Disputer,

13/02/2008 15:14:26
137

Bitter & twisted? What's your excuse Id-pincher?
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Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 15:19:01
#137 Ayrshire Scot..Come now come now, The Master is a good friend of mine and always leaves plenty of raw meet and nuts in his garden for me to munch on.

The Master is a very generous individual and i am very grateful to his generosity in feeding me when im fluttering to and through from my estate to my cousins in Coldstream in the borders. The Master..X
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Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 15:22:51
#140 The Darkside...Ah now, you tell the truth. I have a birds eye view of that wee sauna next to the spar shop in Raeburn and i have seen your twinkle little feet nipping in their..hmmm, i thought so...!!
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The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

13/02/2008 15:31:06
It is virtually impossible to get jailed for an offence these days.

So we can only assume those in jail REALLY DID A LOT of nasty/unacceptable things.

The shock, the horror, the depravity of our society that we lose patience in the end and cage people who have had multiple warning for what is normally a fraction of their wrong-doing.

What do we think? A criminal gets caught red-handed for 1/10 of their crimes? Gets legal-aid worth £00,000s for the first ten or twenty to ensure they can carry out more free on our streets. Then does another 100 or so crimes and gets caught for a few. Then we spend more 00,000s in legal aid because they face jail. We pay £0,000s this time to give them support, we give them £000s in benefits... but they keep going.

And after all that what does the wicked public do? The say you are worth no more, we are dying and not enjoying our lives because we give all the cash to you. And so we jail them.

What utter inconsideration from us. Don't you know these prisons aren't air consitioned? I was horrified to read it is so hot you wake up once a week before rolling over to go back to sleep.

What's more the hardened serial criminal doesn;t enjoy life in prison. When will the SNP end this madness?!
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Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 15:34:24
#142 Some good points in your post, but what about t r a n s v e s t i e t s? male or female prisons?
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13/02/2008 15:36:02
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Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 15:36:10
138 Bird of Prey: I know you, you auld craw. You were in Aberdeen the other day, weren't, shiting on the decent inhabitants.

I just came out of the hairdressers and was heading back to work. I passed some of your relatives - aged 65 if they were a day, slavering tongues and fat bellies hanging out, rubbing their smelly crotches and, actually believing, that I, the gorgeous young Roberta would blush and flutter her eyelids at receiving such attention.

You, ya auld craw, aimed a big sh8te right at my new hair-do, but I dodged it and had the satisfaction of watching it splatter the street pervs. Thank you. But stay out of Leith and Aberdeen, you lower the tone.

From the Moderator
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13/02/2008 15:48:26
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13/02/2008 15:51:05
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Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 15:54:09
#145 The Darkside..Well okay live and let live and don't fill our prisons with those who's only crime is to lower the tone, i will go along with that. I think my post was substantiating the huge fright i got when i was propositioned by a 67 year old trend setter in Leith.

BTW i use that little spar shop as well and they always keep me a copy of Cage and Aviary but that spotty little boy with the dark hair needs a dam good wash.

I shall steer clear of your balcony over looking the water of leith..

#147 Roberta Burns....I dropped a big one right on top of the statue of Robert Burns in Leiths Bernard street, you know the statue..the one that was erected to remember his time in leith but makes no mention of his illegitimate child that he fathered...hmm is that you??
139

Roberta Burns,

13/02/2008 15:56:03
WeeBerti, the woman in the article you linked should be serving a very long prison sentence. I don't think any sane person would argue with this, and it annoys me that her lawyer saw fit to use violence and childhood abuse as an excuse. There are many, many damaged adults out there who suffered childhood abuse and do not attack strangers in the street.

The fact remains that there are far too many low level criminals taking up space in prisons when that space could be used to house dangerous long-term prisoners.
140

Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 15:59:09
#149 weeBerty..What are you on about??? All the posters on this thread as far as i can see are individuals but you do seem to know a lot about the drivel that you are on about. Hmm i just wander if you are someone else with a chip on his right ?
141

Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 16:00:34
#151 All jokes aside...good post..Substantiated..
142

Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 16:04:46
#152 The Darkside...OH do shut up old boy or i will tell Linda and Helza in that little sauna not to give you any extra strokes on your ?/!"££%%^&**&^
143

Bird of Prey, Substansiate what you say,

13/02/2008 16:21:43
#156 The Darkside...What is weeberty all about..? hmm medication nut working me thinks..

Now now The Darkside..Hmm well okay you don't use that little sauna but i want some peanuts on your balcony for me to feast on because of my loyalty to you.
144

,

13/02/2008 16:28:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
145

Allan(handofgod137),

13/02/2008 16:41:01
"Mr McLeish has been given a second chance to act, having been appointed chairman of the prisons commission"

The only chance this thief should have to comment on the prison system is as an inmate!
146

,

13/02/2008 16:42:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
147

I'mallymax,

OUCH. 13/02/2008 17:03:39
As far as the article title goes 'more females in prison- should they be there', is very misleading, and a bit of a rhetorical question if you actually read the article. The Scotsman has made up its mind that the most of the females in prison in Scotland should not be there. I think I agree; going to prison for non-payment of fines/minor crimes like assault(a push is seen as assault by cops now), is ridiculous. The penal system in Scotland is crazy, far too punitive. The justice minister Mr MacAskill is doing the right thing ordering a commission of inquiry into this Bliarite led fashion of locking people up for minor crimes.

I believe what we have on the forum here is a mixture of people that feel disenfranchised by the female groups in scotland that are continually bleeting on about rape, domestic violence, and other crap like equality, glass ceilings and subordination by men. I don't see it! Rather, I see Scottish women getting far too much their own way, just because they are women; and this may well lead to Scots men in Scots society feeling disenfranchised from society as an equal citizen, and moreover, subordinated by sex-type. I do feel a big proportion of the posts here are in this category, and we have the usual hang-em, flog-em brigade.

To the hang-em, flog-em brigade, i say it is exactly the very harsh punitive system we have had to endure for the last ten years that has turned our society into harsher peoples. Part of the mind-set held, and promulgated by prisoners, is one of no surrender to harsh, unfair, and over punitive laws and the totalitarian law officers we have in Scotland. To protect the self the person is committed to protect this ideal, which means they do have the attitude they are 'not bovvered', and they do appear that they can do 6 months standing on their head. But as the Law officers of the land, we should be bigger than just perpetuating the very damaging staus-quo. We really need to have this commission inquiry by McLeish, and
148

Esther. Mexico.,

Mexico. 13/02/2008 17:41:49
This is a serious subject, I know, but you guys are more interesting than the actual article.
I'm not supposed to laugh, but how can anyone read these comments without dissolving into a fit of the giggles. Makes me realize how much I miss you cheeky, articulate sods.
149

Screw loose,

Falkirk 13/02/2008 18:00:53
Should they? No. At least not all. I continue to be a fair supporter of a minister who is trying to do the right thing.
However look to the reports commissioned by your predecessors Kenny, what do they all say? Exactly the same thing as the one you will waste more public money on.
Females with mental health issues ,with drug and alcohol issues, prostitutes etc , can all be labelled as “ shouldn’t be in prison” but who is ever going to simply commit the necessary budget and how many are we talking about. Then how many buck the system to fit one of these labels. Where then does that population peak? It is the same
Then what if we do remove them from prison and it’s a success, are the ones left justifiable criminals.
Remember petrol at £1.00 A Gallon? How many litres of prisoners to the pound in a few years from now?
Start the debate Punishment v Rehabilitation victims of crime need not apply.
150

rancid brown,

Gulag 13/02/2008 18:48:13
1)Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy. Attacks on the people,other controlling acts, told we're in a ‘global war, the scare of vague ‘terrorist attacks to knock us off-balance and (run to the government)for protection.

2)Create a Gulag. Now that we're all scared so a prison system is made outside the ‘rule of Law.We support it because it's for “Them” but soon it becomes for “us”. Many are secret. Special ‘Court's develop and many of us could be caught without bail, lawyers or even trials)

3)Develop scary thugs.(have paramilitary scary men/contractors to intimidate people. Today these are to create fear. It's so-called ‘security to restore public order)

4)Set up an internal surveillance system.(spying on regular people. High visibility wiretaps, reading emails, tax intimidation and all for fabricated ‘national security)

5)Harass citizens groups.(Infiltrate normal citizens groups.Call them suspicious incidents and accuse them of potential terrorist's events which scares the hell out of regular people)

6)Engage in detention and release.(This is to scare ordinary people. You become a target for security searches without cause. If you support the constitution you're a potential terrorist. You're harassed over and over. Picked up and released. Picked up and released until you break and isolate. They win)

7)Target Key individuals (Threaten people with job loss that supports them. Launch attacks on university teachers if they don't support current ideological demands. This paves the way for the brutal ways that will follow soon and they are caught in a trap)

8)Control the press.(threats against life and limb if you don't toe the line… often wounded or killed. Real news is supplanted by fake news and you must report what is given you or suffer consequences. It gets so crazy you soon can't sort out the real from unreal.Citizens can't tell either so give up in stages since it reaches a point when nothing is credible.

9)Dissent equals treaso
151

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 13/02/2008 19:30:07
If people have no social support outside prison, and are not able to work (usually for several reasons), then they are going to commit crime. Release such people, and crime will increase. Custodial sentences have two roles: punishment and rehabilitation. These should NEVER be confused. Ideally there would three grades of institution for all prisoners, not just men: high security punishment facilities for long term, serious offenders, intermediate facilities with some rehabilitation, and finally facilties designed for custodial rehabilitation. In general prisoners with more than 5 years to serve should be in the most secure facilities, those with 2-5 years in intermediate facilities, and those with less than two years to serve should be in custodial rehabilitation, learning vital social and work skills. Minor offences should result in community service alone.
152

Paul Voltiare,

13/02/2008 19:33:24
There should be no gender discrimination or bias shown by the justiciary in the sentencing of criminals.
153

Ghost Of Scotland Past,

13/02/2008 21:52:32
136) To the best of my knowledge I have never been in a sauna with a fag, so how come you know this earth shattering information? A tart yes, a fag No.
154

Ghost Of Scotland Past,

13/02/2008 22:04:40
36) He's off again, hang em high, birch em.
There are 13 female murderers in that establishment
so even if they were all worthy of hanging it would hardly empty the place would it.
By the way pictures are hung, people are hanged.
Recent research has proved that it costs society far more to execute than even a full life term so knock that nonsense out your nearly empty head.
If prostitutes, drug addicts, and fine defaulters wer not jailed there would be more room in jails for theives, rapists, murderers, peadophiles, pimps, and drug pushers, the very people who should be off our streets.
Why should we pay £35000 per annum to keep the former types incarcerated when community service of some kind would return something to society, and help in their rehabilitation. Lastly those with mental problems should be appropriately treated not jailed where they
are driven to suicide by the real hard nuts who have as much understanding of the human condition as you.
155

Astarte,

Giffnock 14/02/2008 00:37:42
To use a Hegelianism "We will never cure crime until we cure the society which engenders crime!". And the society which allows people to live in squalor and in rat infested hovels in Scotland's cities engenders crime. The governments at all levels who are avoiding the debate on social issues are engendering crime.The submerged two thirds of Scotland's population who lack the education of a third world country are the vulnerable, the most likely constituents of a life in and out of jail are the dregs of a society which engenders crime. The remainder who know nothing of real life, real compassion, parochialism, the wearers of blinders who continue to stumble in an illusionary bubble in a stagnant society are the real criminals.
156

famie,

australia 14/02/2008 01:06:30
I see the tenor of commentary is as enlightened as ever. The Christain compassion still prevails. Punishment to fit the crime while ignoring the real criminals in the corrupt political system that is modern capitalism. As far the fear mongers who see woman as the enemy it will be a great day when their ilk is bred out.
157

Yane,

14/02/2008 06:15:13
#!63 Aint it the truth?
158

Drum Major,

Australia 14/02/2008 06:15:30
393 Women is a small number and I am sure there are more women than that in Scotland who should be locked up. The % of female to male criminals is higher than the % inside. The military system starts with a mattress on the floor. Be good and you will earn a bed. Be bad and watch your mattress leave the cell. This generally inspires the occupant to buck their ideas up.

Of course if you get to many you may have to transport them. I'm not sure where. I believe the American colonies have stopped taking them and so have we. Gee you can't even send them to Hong Kong. I know off to Barra with them. There won't be many looking for that type of holiday.
159

Yane,

14/02/2008 09:45:22
Hey Dave! The Drum Major is suggesting a munter (your lovely word!) festival on Barra.
160

Thorne,

Bridge of Allan 03/03/2008 13:15:24
If they do the crime they should do the time. their sex should not come in to it or be used as a get out clause.
What do they say about equal rights in all things.

 

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