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Moderator says anti-English bigotry is 'like sectarianism'



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Published Date: 17 February 2008
ANTI-ENGLISH bigotry in Scotland is on a par with sectarianism and should not be tolerated as part of a "healthy society," according to the leader of the Kirk.
The Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland also claims in an Address for Lent on race relations in the UK that anti-English "banter" during sporting occasions could be harmful as it might lead to more sinister behaviour.

The Rt Rev Sheilagh Kesting warns that anti-English attitudes are stoking growing anti-Scottish resentment south of the Border. In perhaps the most controversial passage of her address, the Moderator urged people to think twice before making racially tinged remarks during sporting events.

"There is a thin line between banter and something which is more sinister," she said.

"In Scotland, we have got used to football as a context for perpetrating sectarianism so I don't think we can pass off lightly anti-English remarks which are made during matches. It is too easy to dismiss this as healthy rivalry. It is not.

"Caricatures that seek to diminish others that are barbed with prejudice and misinformation are not part of a healthy society. It is nobody's business to be disrespecting one another simply because they are English or Catholic, or whatever."

The Kirk leader made her comments after taking part in the Moderator's annual visit to London. She said: "The conversations I had with many of the people I met prompted reflection of whether the changed political situation will affect relations between our countries.

"It is time to reflect on attitudes: the things we accept, perhaps unthinkingly, that we use to strengthen our sense of identity; the caricatures that are underpinned by humour in thinly disguised prejudice. There is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence that there is anti-Englishness abroad in Scotland today.

"The principle behind sectarianism is the same one that feeds anti-English feeling. It is the principle which seeks to narrow our identity to only one feature, like religion, race or nationality, and which makes that one feature the totality of how we see one another."

The Moderator was surprised by the attitudes of some people she encountered during her visit to London.

She said: "There are anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed in England. I think the political climate is making it more likely. What compounded the thing for me was in London people were asking me, 'What is Scotland up to?' There was a sense of bewilderment about what was happening in Scotland."

Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."

The Moderator's views were backed by anti-sectarianism campaigner and Glasgow minister, Reverend Elisabeth Spence.

The Sense Over Sectarianism project member said: "If you say something which is sectarian, people will spot it and challenge it because of the high-profile campaigns which have raised awareness that it will no longer be tolerated.

"People still laugh off anti-English remarks as just a bit of fun, but they are nothing of the sort. They are racist and offensive."

But David Ward, the English-born convener of the Glasgow branch of the Saltire Society, which aims to protect and promote Scottish culture, believed that anti-Englishness was actually in decline.

Speaking personally, he said: "I think that since devolution there has been a change whereby, if people have grievances, they tend to blame the Government and Parliament in Scotland.

"Before devolution, problems were usually blamed on London. Resentment against the Westminster Government was often mistakenly expressed as anti-Englishness, but that is not the case now."

Tam Ferry, a spokesman for the Association of Tartan Army Clubs, felt it would be a sad day if banter between Scots and their southern neighbours was lost.

He said: "In football, you have got to be able to laugh at yourself and others.

"There are some aspects of anti-Englishness which go too far and we would never condone that. But good-natured banter and mickey-taking are part and parcel of the atmosphere at games."

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "There is no place for discrimination or extremism of any kind in 21st-century Scotland and the Scottish Government is determined to do everything it can to stamp it out. A modern Scotland should be all about acceptance and celebrating diversity."

COMMENT: The union jocks

The full article contains 768 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 February 2008 10:41 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Anti-English bullying
 
1

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:02:55
Well over to you SNP
2

An English Voice,

17/02/2008 00:14:59
A bunch of spotty billy-no-mates with a complex over a battle fought 700 years ago.

Truly a force for us to be concerned about.

3

subrosa,

17/02/2008 00:17:13
So us Scots are to blame for the English being anti-Scottish? Where's she been for the past 100s of years? It's always gone on and always will although I agree with the Saltire Society spokesman that it's more relevant to poltics than personal nowadays.
4

Steve,

Bo'ness 17/02/2008 00:20:42
Of course anti-English sentiment exists, and it is wrong. No denying it, but it has existed for hundreds of years. Trying to lump it upon the shoulders of an open democratic party (with many English members!) is typical of desperation of the unionist establishment. Because lets face it, this story is more about hurting the SNP than any apparent upsurge in anti-English sentiment. And it's all getting a bit boring now.

If anyone actually has evidence of anti-English sentiment in the SNP, let's see it. Otherwise, give it a bloody rest.
5

Leerie the Lamplighter,

17/02/2008 00:21:12
The average football chanter couldn't spell "sectarianism".

Posters of the "Scandinavian folklore character" tradition seem to suffer a similar educational disadvantage.

With sincere apologies to the poster, Eve, who is sydlexic.
6

,

17/02/2008 00:21:59
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7

,

17/02/2008 00:26:16
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8

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 00:26:29
subrosa.

"So us Scots are to blame for the English being anti-Scottish?"

Most English people don't know, or care, where Scotland is.
9

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:27:48
4#

Steve

I know you never no for sure who is posting on these sites but check these boards out tomorrow night
10

,

17/02/2008 00:31:05
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11

Senga Jean,

Scotland 17/02/2008 00:31:10
Anti-Scottish sentiment is to be accepted because we are "up to something". Sorry but what the Scots are up to is the realisation that they are not a pale shadow of another nation and wish to enter the real world. As for incomers in the Highlands and Islands many second generation friends readily admit that their parents mistook the traditional slow and cautious responses of the natives for dullardly and thus enmity was created. When Scottish Independence comes along these issues will not have importance because we will all be pulling together for Scotland.
12

Carlo,

Fort William 17/02/2008 00:32:59
Anyone who claims to be an SNP supporter and spouts anti-English sentiments is not welcome!! in, around or near the party.
Take your small minded bigotry elsewhere.....all true aspirants to Scottish independence welcome the dialogue and the future trade of our british cousins.
13

,

17/02/2008 00:34:59
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14

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:40:25
#11

Less of your stock in trade soundbites it really is boring for us readers
15

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 00:42:21
14#

Jim Cruickshank (the cat) was a great goalkeeper but I think you are on the wrong thread
16

Sue Grabbitand-Runne,

17/02/2008 00:42:47
Warriston Row 33
17

,

17/02/2008 00:46:25
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18

,

17/02/2008 00:52:36
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19

,

17/02/2008 01:00:10
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20

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 17/02/2008 01:12:03
#8 Jim Rockford,17/02/2008 00:26:29
"Most English people don't know, or care, where Scotland is."
Spot on. Historically there has always been more anti- Scottish, Irish, Welsh, French, Ozzie etc., name calling and put-down jokes coming from Southern England, especially the capital that was ever reciprocated. Aggressive 'racism' or/and sectarianism usually is the practice of the great unwashed who don't vote anyway and would certainly not be welcomed in the SNP or most political parties.
21

Scunner,

Ellon 17/02/2008 01:15:44
Nothing better than seeing England get beat at Football/Rugby etc. Does this make me a bigot or racist? Not at all. I have many English friends. One of the things about the UK is that we love to see others fail.
22

Merouane,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 01:18:41
#24. Nothing wrong at all. It's certainly not unique to the UK either, most football fans across the world like to see their closest rivals fail.
23

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:25:41
Robbie,

Cheers, mate!

I think it's a good thing to be able to laugh at yourself. If you can't take it, don't dish it out!

Engerlanders are not good at taking it.

I am a Unionist, for my sins.

In the words of the New Seekers song - I'd like to teach the world to sing. . .


And the English to farking grow up to understand there is intelligent life North of Watford Gap.
24

,

17/02/2008 01:28:35
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25

Jimmy the Pie,

17/02/2008 01:30:50
Thought AM2 would have been right onto this thread, spouting his anti-SNP bile.

26

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 01:32:42
I take it the Rt Rev Kesting has not been to a footbal match recently.
27

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:32:52
#24,

My niece is a Hibby. I'm a Jambo. My niece doesn't care who beats the Big Team in Edinburgh.

I still love her.
28

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 01:33:24
Accusations from bigoted Britnats hardly needs any defence from SNP supporters. Being in favour of the rights of your ane kind to run their own affairs and make decisions is hardly anti english.

As you mouthpieces for Westminster would know the SNP has many members who have embraced our Nation, that originate from many other countries including England. That point is neither pro English or anti English because unlike Britnats we can accept others whatever their political,religous or colour of skin. Theres quite a few Britnats on these forums who have posted anti muslim crap on these sites.

As for the Church of Scotland, its time we faced the fact that it was them that supported the Scottish People in their fight to resist the traitors who were signing away Scotlands sovereignty, until they received assurances by the English Government that they were assured of the continued dominance of the Scottish church.

They were just one more part of the parcel of rogues who sold our rights to rule our own land.

Kosovo is about to be officially recognised by the UK Government after it declare UDI. That was never negotiated and agreed by the Serbians, therefore a precedent has been set where it will only take 40% of the Scottish People to vote for Independance before we can declare UDI. I would like to remind you Britnats the latest ICM poll states that is already achieved so we are closer than we have ever been before to our democratic goal. By the way a quick fact for you Britnats to choke on: The Scottish and English Parliaments were never ever disolved as was the requirement of the Act of Union. That basically means we can declare the real Scottish Parliament Open at anytime. Trust traitors to get it wrong again, hence that includes all britnats who post on these sites. That means we will soon have an exodus of perhaps as many as 100 Scots moving down South while quite a few Thousand will be returning HOME to their Mother Scotland. A fine trade I would say.
29

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:38:58
#30,

The tannoy announcements at any SPL game leave you in no doubt about what is unnacceptable behaviour.

Consequently, you can be indignant about the "patronising announcemnet", sit back and enjoy the game. Without being sworn at, spat on, stabbed, bottled . . . .

And your problem is?
30

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 01:40:49
32#

Is declaring UDI against the wishes of 60% not a bit undemocratic and leads to things like civil wars -
31

,

17/02/2008 01:41:55
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32

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 17/02/2008 01:42:03
#32 is surely an agent provocateur, or an absolute fruitcake,creepy!
33

,

17/02/2008 01:47:03
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34

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 01:48:00
#30

Dont think I have one Jim - football has moved on a bit, you say you are a Jambo, if you go to matches you will know things are not as bad as Rev Kesting perhaps thinks they are.
35

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:48:33
#35 is surely an absolute fruitcake.

The SNP does that to their devotees.

How much brainwashing can a person take?



(Lights blue touchpaper and retires a safe distance)
36

,

17/02/2008 01:51:59
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37

,

17/02/2008 01:53:23
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38

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 01:57:19
#38,

Scotland , even in the 70's, was never "hard" enough for Irish style sectarianism.

Most Rangers and Celtic fans don't know what the inside of a church/chapel looks like.

They just belong to a blue or green "tribe".
39

,

17/02/2008 02:00:27
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40

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 02:01:00
#39,

Please give us more of your wisdom?
41

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 02:02:45
Disputer,

Turn off the CAPS LOCK.

My eyes are bleeding!
42

,

17/02/2008 02:03:30
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43

Jim Rockford,

17/02/2008 02:08:07
The cloning trolls have surfaced at 39 and 47.

G'night, all.
44

brian mcc,

the arctic 17/02/2008 02:08:12
Want to hear some real anti-english phrases?

Come to Ireland
45

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 02:08:14
44#

We seem to be at cross purposes.
46

Insomniac,

17/02/2008 02:10:28
The comments from the SNP are worrying. That viewpoint is really silly.

I do agree that the problem is about racism and anti-English sentiment being handed down from parent to child.

Alex Salmond and the SNP do try to foster and encourage this sentiment of ill-will. Their snide comments are often thinly veiled racism.


47

baffies away,

17/02/2008 02:15:50
#53

Total and utter nonsense. Back up your rediculous statement with facts.
48

Insomniac,

17/02/2008 02:25:11
Oh come off it baffies away the SNP are very adept at stirring up anti-English feeling. A lot of their members openly hate the English.
49

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 17/02/2008 02:27:03
57#
no
50

baffies away,

17/02/2008 02:27:04
#56

Back up your statement with facts, quotes, anything, can you do that? Are you capable of constructing an argument?
51

democrate,

central Scotland 17/02/2008 02:27:49
Get back to the thread please. The good lady asked "what is Scotland up to?" Whoops; have we Nationalists rocked somebody's boat? I do not believe that Scots naturally hate English or any other ethnic breed. The problem seems really to be that we Scots forgot to stay in our rightful lowly place and had the gall to question why our neighbours have the right to determine how we live, and felt that we might like the chance to make decisions for ourselves - they don't like it up them, do they?
52

Richardinho,

17/02/2008 02:32:26
I believe you should generally be nice to people. However I note this quote from the article;
'Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."'

Is that not understandable? If rich incomers are buying up housing, forcing prices up and locals out, is that not a good reason for feeling a sense of resentment?

People are constantly being told 'not to be racist', but how are they supposed to deal with what are often real feelings of being swamped and alienated by foreigners?
53

,

17/02/2008 02:44:12
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54

rawhide ,

Glasgow. not anti english 17/02/2008 02:46:25
53 Insomniac= idiot
If you ONLY had a brain?????
55

TommyKaye,

UK 17/02/2008 02:59:13
SO THIS WILL BE THE OPINION OF A LADY WHO:

BELIEVES A MAN FED 5000 PEOPLE WITH TWO MACKEREL AND TWO BOTTLES OF WATER.

BELIEVES THAT A MAN WALKED ACROSS THE SEA AS IT WAS HELD UP BY A GOD

THAT SOMEONE CREATED ALL LIVING THINGS BUT NEVER MENTIONS DINASOURS WHICH WERE AROUND A WEE BIT EARLIER.

YES SHE LIVES IN THE REAL WORLD DOESNT SHE!
56

thewitness,

17/02/2008 03:04:10
I wonder if The Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland has any comments on 1 million dead Iraqi's, Inflation (Usury) running wild and a host of other REAL issue that Christians SHOULD be very concerned about. No, thought not, Zionist!
57

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 17/02/2008 03:12:04
Hello All and Pict,

I must say that Elisabeth Spence shows a great deal of ignorance, when she used the term 'racist' in the context of anti-English sentiment.

Unless we're all back in the 19th century again, it is NOT possible for a white Scot to be 'racist' against a white Englisman/woman: both are white and so of the same 'race'.

She should have said that anti-English sentiments are ethnic bigotry, or Ethno-racism, but to say it's racist is plainly wrong and very silly.

On a more sour note, the Pict illustrates why a great many Canadians have been let down by their public education system: the anti-semitism which the Pict displays, is something one might here from a member of Hamas, Hezbollah, KKK, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, or the John Birch Society.

Such hatred of Jews is nothing new of course, but one would hope that given the overwhelming evidence of just who the real terrorists are; Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, et al, Pict would have at least a desire to couch his/her anti-semitic and bigoted words in a more subtle phrasing.

Ah, I see my mistake!

More subtle phrasing would actually require and education, study, research, and a LOT of reading multi-syllabic words, in stack after stack of BOOKS!!!

Tsk, tsk, tsk, I should know better than to require such common sense, excellence, and forethought, from an anti-Semite.

Cheers from the Rockies
58

thewitness,

17/02/2008 03:24:12
#66 Zionist
You say..."overwhelming evidence of just who the real terrorists are; Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran's Revolutionary Guard"

Maybe you can share the "overwhelming evidence" with me?
You sound a tad racist yourself, in the bomb,bomb,Iran group of Zionazi fascists are we?
59

,

17/02/2008 03:26:41
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60

Roberta Burns,

17/02/2008 03:32:01
She said: "There are anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed in England. I think the political climate is making it more likely. What compounded the thing for me was in London people were asking me, 'What is Scotland up to?' There was a sense of bewilderment about what was happening in Scotland."

She should have asked the anti-Scottish englands 'whitsamatason urufeart?' Why did she feel she had to come back up here and spew forth about anti-englishness? Ye just canny help some folks.
61

Roberta Burns,

17/02/2008 03:34:09
Even Berwick would rather be Scottish. Take note, hen.
62

Robert Dunn,

Edinburgh 17/02/2008 03:45:23
What about the AntiScotish bias of the Royal Mint.
Recent Examples:-
a) Advert for coins dated 1930s described as part of a series of Kings of England(not U.K.)
b) Stating , in advert for £5 Trafalgar coin, that "all British coins had been produced at the Royal Mint for 1,100 years." No mention of Scottish or Irish mints.
Does one wonder at AntiEnglish feelings aroused by such blatant bias?
63

Roberta Burns,

17/02/2008 03:47:20
...then there's the BBC and Londoners
64

,

17/02/2008 03:50:59
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65

Yane,

17/02/2008 03:51:57
#64 Jings - was it mackeral?
66

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 03:52:58
O Fhlu\ir na h-Albann,
cuin a chi\ sinn
an seo\rsa laoich
a sheas gu ba\s 'son
am bileag feo\ir is fraoich,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin?
Na cnuic tha lomnochd
's tha duilleach Foghair
mar bhrat air la\r,
am fearann caillte
dan tug na seo\id ud gra\dh,
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaigh
air chaochladh smaoin.
Tha 'n eachdraidh du\inte
ach air di\ochuimhne
chan fheum i bhith,
is faodaidh sinn e\irigh
gu bhith nar Ri\oghachd a-ri\s
a sheas an aghaidh
feachd uailleil Iomhair
's a ruaig e dhachaidh
air chaochladh smaoin.
67

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 03:53:48
77 - Naw - kippers
68

Yane,

17/02/2008 03:53:53
#64 Jings - was it mackeral?
69

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:03:39
'Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."'

She'll be pleased to know that attitudes have not changed, in the slightest; nor will they as long as Scotland is denied its independence and is continually treated as a colony.
70

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:03:48
Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led
Welcome to your gory bed
Or to victory!
Now's the day an' now's the hour
See the front of battle lour
See approach proud Edward's pow'r
Chains and slavery!
Wha would be a traitor knave?
Wha would fill a coward's grave?
Wha sae base as be a slave?
Let him turn and flee!
Wha for Scotland's king an' law
Freedom's sword would strongly draw
Freeman stand and freeman fa'
Let him on wi' me!

By oppression's woes and pains
By your sons in servile chains
We will drain our dearest veins
But they shall be free.
Lay the proud userpers low!
Tyrants fall in ev'ry foe
Liberty's in every blow
Let us do or dee!
71

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:16:25

66 - Neanderthal 75 - just wait a minute there chum. The Pict is a f**king idiot.

Every nation has their fair share.

And please don't blame it on our educational system.

For all we know the f**king idiot could hail from the US or Scotland.

Let us take comfort in believing that his parentage is unknown and he is posting from a well-guarded lunatic asylum.

Fair enough?
72

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 04:17:49
This would be the same Rt Rev Kesting who supported the Archfruitcake of Canterbury's "inevitability of Sharia law in this country"? Shoot-themselves-in-the-foot Religionistas ... don't ya just love them?

#21 Non Person
Neatly put!
73

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:18:16

78 - An Beal Bacht - how esoteric. No what would the point have been?
74

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:18:20
This was how I broke the best
Indifference, overblown with confidence and ignorance
It all made sense
And then I watched them take the test
I believe it’s better to inflict than to attempt relief
You ask me what you need
Hate is all you need

Hate is all around find it in your heart in every waking sound
On your way to school, work or church you’ll find that it’s the only rule
Build a different world, hate will help you find what you’ve been looking for
Hate is everywhere, inside your mother’s heart and you will find it there
You ask me what you need hate is all you need


This was how I won the west
Charity, a joke that friendly cities think that we believe
Or so it seems
We kicked and punched and stabbed to death
And everyone applauded my fine actions I was overcome
You ask me what I’ve seen
Hate is all I’ve seen

Hate is in the air
Come on people feel it like you just don’t care
Everlasting hate feel it in the people where it’s warm and great
Come on hate yourself everyone here does so just enjoy yourself
Hate is everywhere, look inside your heart and you will find it there
You ask me what I mean
Hate is all I mean
75

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:20:10
86 - Speak up -Ah cannae hear ye!
76

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:21:22


85 - Fanling - visit these boards more often and you will see that there is very little virtue.

Speaking of virtue - how is the legal system in China these days?
77

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:21:39
Come charge up your glasses and lets drink a toast,
To the bold Scottish heroes and the proud Scottish host,
To the battles we've won and the few that we've lost
Here's a health tae the back o' Schiehallion.

Chorus :
Schiehallion, Schiehallion, I hear your voice calling,
Across the Great Glen to the coast of Argyll.
The Lowlands, The Highlands, The Borders, The Islands,
I'll drink tae the back o' Schiehallion.

The bluebell of Scotland is hanging her head,
And the lion once rampant is lying like dead.
They grieve for their country whose courage has fled
Far awa' tae the back o' Schiehallion.

God speed the day when the Scots shall awake,
The fetters of England to crack and to break.
And stand by that freedom their birthright to take
Here's a health tae the back o' Schiehallion
78

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:30:11

90 - GTF!

Pls no more tartan twilight twitter!

If Scotland keeps looking to her past then she will stay on a meandering and confused course.

Look to the future. Be confident. The past is just full of division, hatred and defeat.
79

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 04:30:43
#89 Dunnie, Canada
"Speaking of virtue - how is the legal system in China these days"

The first part of your sentence makes as little sense to the content of my post #85 as the nonsense of the second part. Looking for a spurious argument unrelated to the topic of this page is deliberately provocative and pointless. Grow up.
80

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:35:21
90 - Guga writes a guid yin -Whahae!!!
81

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:37:23
Dunnie's in the dunnie!
82

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:38:55
Dunnie belongs in the dunny.
83

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:40:21
HISTORY? WHO NEEDS HISTORY?
84

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:40:32
92 - LOL!

First - if you were a regular visitor to these boards you would understand the meaning of the first sentence of my posting.

Secondly, you avoided my question - which I didn't find immature - which was posed since you saw fit to pass comment on both religious and legal matters of a foreign country.

I will not be so offensive as to say "Grow Up". Rather, I would say: Wake Up".
85

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 17/02/2008 04:41:26
since thsat beatch became an apologist for Islam as far as I am concerned she is not worth listening to.
86

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:41:46
94 and 95 - LOL!
87

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:48:08
To Scotland's ancient realm,
Proud Edward's armies came;
To sap our freedom and overwhelm
Our martial forces in shame.
"It shall not be" brave Wallace cried!
"It shall not be" his chiefs relied!
By the name our fathers gave her,
Our steel shall drink the crimson stream,
We'll all her dearest right redeem,
Our own broadswords shall save her.
With hopes of triumph flush'd,
The squadrons hurried o'er
Thy Bridge Kildean, and heaving rush'd
Like wild waves to the shore.
"They come, they come" was the gallant cry,
"They come, they come" was the loud reply.
O strength thou gracious giver,
By love and freedoms stainless faith,
We'll dare the darkest night of death,
We'll drive them back forever.

All o'er the waving broom,
In chivalry and grace,
Shone England's radiant spear and plume
By Stirling's rocky base.
And stretching far beneath the view,
Proud Cressingham, thy banners flew.
When like a torrent rushing,
O God! from right and left the flame,
Of Scottish swords like lightning came,
Great Edward's legions crushing.

High praise, ye gallant band,
Who in the face of day,
With daring hearts and fearless hands
Have cast your chains away.
The foemen fell on ev'ry side,
In crimson hues the Forth was dyed.
Bedew'd with blood the heather,
While cries triumphant shook the air,
Thus shall we do, shall we dare,
Wherever Scotsmen gather.
88

,

17/02/2008 04:48:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:48:49

95 - Guga

"The bluebell of Scotland is hanging her head,
And the lion once rampant is lying like dead."

Come now, Guga ( or is that gagga?) you must admit that such doggerel would not invite praise?
90

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:53:22
101 - WELL SAID!
91

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:54:40


100 - stop it! It's worse than chinese water torture. Uh, sorry, that was race specific. It's worse than re-runs of Andy Stewart.

" Jacobites can recite so well.

Of stirring words and victories so nearly had,

Yet they they would be more glad,

Not to have heard of loyal Clan Campbell".
92

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 17/02/2008 04:56:03
Hello Dunnie,

I'll subscribe to your notation on that fact: I was presumptive in my assumption.

Did you catch those acts by Disputer and TheWitness?

Talk about clueless: they're right up with there with Ahmadinejad's mindset about the Holocaust!!

No doubt they've got signed copies of Mein Kampf tucked under their beddies.

I've noted that anarchists, Marxists, Social Progressives, the Politically Correct, Great Russian Nationalists, and other similar loons, tend to live in fantasy worlds, are usually worked up to the point of bursting blood vessels, and generally can't hold a rational debate based on facts, empirical evidence, and logic, to save their lives!

Oh well, sharks, worms, Grizz, and the buzzards, still have to eat.

Cheers from the Rockies
93

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:57:30
#101 Couldn't agree more.
94

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 04:58:45


105 - Roger that.
95

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 04:59:21
Who let the POPINJAYS onto this thread?
96

Guga II,

Rockall 17/02/2008 04:59:30
#102 In the Dunny.

Shows what you know. You obviously don't know whaere it came from.
97

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 05:05:29
#97 Dunnie

Your moniker is as new to me as mine clearly is to you. I stumbled across these forums two years ago and visit and revisit when time allows, so you can put that to bed. It is enough to say that I have neither time nor inclination for your tit-for-tat shoolboy antics.

You allege that I "saw fit to pass comment on both religious and legal matters of a foreign country." Um, which foreign country would that be then? In case it had escaped your eagle eye this topic is in relation to the statement of a religious representative. I therefore certainly "see fit to comment", as other posters legitimately do, without fear of intimidation from you or like minds.

Off for lunch and decent stimulating conversation.
98

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:06:43

101 - Virginian - let me guess: is your favourite television show Ernest Angeley re-runs?

By the way, do you burn crosses and run around in a bed sheet with a pointy hat?

I don't have a clue who this woman is but to be quoting scripture to deny women an equal place in today's society - religion aside - is well, f**king stupid.

Virginian, sleep cozy next to your warm gun, NASCAR Weekly - and, oh, make sure the wife doesn't find the copy of Playboy in the outhouse.
99

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:07:58
tinyurl.com/5aql3

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.

100

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:09:48

Hope you are not in China teaching English.


This is a forum.


The plural of forum is fora.
101

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:13:29

109 - who cares. It is still pathetic prose - and I don't mean it terms of its basic message, but rather its syrupy and romantic tone.

102

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:19:05
Is the plural for dunnie dunce or dense?
103

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:21:41
O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North, strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free !
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Now that is syrupy!
104

Fanling,

China 17/02/2008 05:22:29
#113 Lavvieman
"Forums" is the entirely acceptable modern spelling. "Fora" is mere Latin pedantry. Look it up in a real dictionary after your constipation eases up.
105

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:22:48
Another Version:

O Canada, our heritage, our love
Thy worth we praise all other lands above.
From sea to see throughout their length
From Pole to borderland,
At Britain's side, whate'er betide
Unflinchingly we'll stand
With hearts we sing, "God save the King",
Guide then one Empire wide, do we implore,
And prosper Canada from shore to shore.
106

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:23:13
And Another:

O Canada! in praise of thee we sing;
From echoing hills our anthems proudly ring.
With fertile plains and mountains grand
With lakes and rivers clear,
Eternal beauty, thos dost stand
Throughout the changing year.
Lord God of Hosts! We now implore
Bless our dear land this day and evermore,
Bless our dear land this day and evermore.
107

An Beal Bacht,

17/02/2008 05:24:30
Aye - these Canadians know how tae write a national anthem dae they no?
108

Dunnie,

Canada 17/02/2008 05:28:48

115 -

That is rather rich coming from someone who states suppor