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Minister orders crisis summit after Scots pupils fall behind in maths and science

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Published Date: 10 December 2008
TEACHERS are to be called to a summit after Scotland's schoolchildren were found to be falling behind those in many other countries in maths and science.



On a range of measures, children in other countries, including England, fare better than those in Scotland in both subjects, according to a 59-country survey.

At primary five level, only 51 per cent of pupils have teachers who consider themselves very well prepared to teach science.

Fiona Hyslop, the education secretary, said the findings showed "unacceptable" failings and ordered a detailed analysis, to be considered at a summit next year.

The findings came in an international assessment, conducted every four years, of pupil attainment in maths and science.

Nearly 4,000 primary five pupils and the same number of secondary two pupils took part.

In primary five maths, 11 countries in the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), including England, did better than Scotland, which scored 494, compared with the average of 500.

The findings for maths at secondary two were similar: six OECD countries, including England, did better than Scotland's score of 487.

For science at the P5 level, Scotland's score was 500, matching the average. Thirteen OECD countries, including England, scored above Scotland. The findings were similar for science at S2, where Scotland scored 496. Eight OECD countries, including England, did better.

Ms Hyslop said the figures showed Scotland standing still while other nations "pushed by".

"This survey highlights unacceptable failings in maths and science in Scotland's schools and confirms the urgent need to act," she said. "During the last administration, the achievement of Scots pupils fell back between 2003 and 2007 compared to other countries. There is no doubt this government has inherited a great challenge and it is for us – now – to take action."

The minister has told officials to prepare an urgent analysis of the findings, to be considered by science teachers and business leaders at next year's summit.

"This survey also reveals that too many teachers lack confidence. This needs to be tackled if we want our young people to take science forward," she said.

Liz Smith, the Tory education spokeswoman, said the survey painted a "very disappointing picture". She said: "I am particularly concerned about the lack of basic skills in mathematics, which, together with the issues about basic literacy among too high a proportion of pupils, reinforces the need for far more focus to be put on the teaching of the three Rs at primary school."

Ken Macintosh, Labour's schools spokesman, said pupils in Scotland were not improving as fast as in other countries.

"It is clear that the particular difficulties with science and maths must be addressed by the Scottish Government," he said.

Ann Ballinger, president of the Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association, said:

"There are generic science classes, which means if you are, for example, a physicist you are not teaching your own subject."


The full article contains 495 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 December 2008 11:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

09/12/2008 22:56:37
"Fiona Hyslop, the education secretary, said the findings showed "unacceptable" failings and ordered a detailed analysis, to be considered at a "summit" next year."

It is good to see the SNP is taking this seriously.

They are going to order a detailed analysis, sometime, next year for consideration at some summit at some point in time.

What a pro-active government. What dynamism.

The SNP, the "might do something some day" party, unless of course it is something we can blame on Westminster and then its all hands to the pumps.
2

SkeptikScot,

10/12/2008 00:19:48
Why don't they just print the table, do they think we don't have the numacy skills to be able to read it?

"The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (Timss) is a major four-yearly comparison of standards in primary and secondary schools." Covers "more than 60 countries and regions."

-----------

"In Scotland, primary pupils were ranked 22nd for maths and 15th for science and secondary pupils were 23rd for science and 17th for maths."

Overall England seems to be 5th for science (behind Singapore, "Chinese Taipei", Japan & Korea) and 6th for maths (behind "Chinese Taipei", Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan and Hungary).

No need to panic (I'm always suspicious of league tables anyway) but clearly Scotland "must try harder".


3

The Strategist,

10/12/2008 00:34:26
It's a question of demand. If children see no demand in the economy for these types of skills then they won't bother with them. Fact is that we simply don't have the companies to create the demand and that of course is because Labour handed over control of industrial policy to the City and the financial institutions.
4

The Answer,

Glasgow 10/12/2008 00:55:16
8% is Scotlands share of the UK population

7% is Scotlands contribution of full time undergraduates to UK universities 2008 entry

12 new english undergraduates for every 1 new scottish undergraduate 2008 entry

7% of Scotland domiciled fulltime new undergraduates 2008 elected to study in England.

1% of England domiciled fulttime new undergraduates 2008 elected to study in Scotland



Salmond making the English dance a scotch jig , I presume.

UCAS WebSite link.
tinyurl.com/6kmkyz
5

Thrawn,

UK 10/12/2008 01:04:16
Aye, shall we sill see future generations of lads o' pairts who will emigrate and take good jobs in other countries?
6

SkeptikScot,

10/12/2008 01:06:04
I like to be given my information straight. I hate the fact there has to be a "positive spin" on this story by prefacing it with "Minister orders crisis summit ...". Clearly they think we might burst into tears otherwise.

I wait for "We need to fully analyse the statistics, then hold a conference, then commission an academic report and a review. By the time that lots over they can then say "But this is old news, there have been many changes, things are different now - and anyway don't be negative, you mustn't run down Scotland's children (they're our future)."

Excuse me for being cynical, it's my way! No tears. Grab the nettle and deal with it. Don't lets faff around!
7

Finlang,

France 10/12/2008 02:20:03
Who or what is this Bonstin #4 who has posted the same gobbledegook elsewhere? Maths and science it ain't.
8

Helene,

Burlington 10/12/2008 02:22:44
#7 Thrawn - I hope you meant to say "lads AND lasses o'pairts who will emigrate......" I'm one of those lasses who did indeed emigrate, with my very traditional Scottish education (it has always stood me in good stead) behind me and took a good job in another country.
I've been a teacher in Ontario for many years so I must make a point of checking Canada's standings in these assessments.
Here in Ontario too, one of the biggest problems is that teachers are not always teaching their specialties. As a French specialist teaching the equivalent of your S1/S2 I am sometimes timetabled to teach math - and math ain't my subject!!
9

drunken proffet,

Tassy 10/12/2008 05:15:03
Well one solution would be to offer all students who take maths and science and go onto university to get their degree that if they cannot find a job in Scotland, the government will organise and pay for you to travel to a country that can. Then you fire all the folk in high positions who could not meet the target. Well if the kids made the effort to succeed in their future career, there is no reason to pay those guys who could not ensure that their career was in Scotland. Could be done on an annual business, that would keep them on their toes.
10

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10/12/2008 06:03:08
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11

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 10/12/2008 06:43:59
If they want to know why standards are falling then I hope they look at classroom discipline.

The Herald reports that the summit meeting will be held "early in the new year".
12

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 07:14:28
The answer is simple. There are not enough professionally competant teachers. And why?
because hardly anybody can afford to live on a teachers salary. Its endemic in all of the public sectors. The NHS the Police force the armed forces the fire services etc all of them have recruitment problems because it doesnt pay.
Add that to the constant lies with regards to successive UK governments telling us they are investing in education and health and the results are obvious. We no longer have a competant nor effective health service nor education standards.
This problem didnt develope overnight it developed over decades. And as long as we continue to put parties pushing conservative policies and values it will continue into future decades.
The evidence is right in front of your faces. Conservative values and policies fail for the vast majority of people.
13

I can see for miles,

10/12/2008 07:25:03
Hearts.

The luckiest and unluckiest team in Scotland.

Their luck has run out


You heard it here first
14

,

10/12/2008 07:45:11
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:05:22
16

Salaries are perfectly reasonable? so what factor does an average teachers salary have to be multiplied by in order for him or her to buy a 1 bedroomed flat? a 2 bedroomed flat? a family house?
How long would it take them to pay off a car loan of 8000 to 10000 pounds? after paying income tax, national insurance, road tax, house insurance, contents insurance, TV licence, council tax, VAT on everything, extortionate utility bills, Food costs, transport costs etc etc etc etc not to mention the new burdens in the pipeline and increaces on all of the above.

These salaries compare very well with private industry where I have had no problem recruiting graduates on £2-4k less.

What a lying torag you are. The differences between the public sector and the private sector is one of money versus security. The private sector gets the money the public sector gets the security thats supposed to be the trade off.

A Scottish problem which has been brewing for decades due to "education reforms" and neglect long before we even had a Scottish parliament which was run from London anyway until the SNP took it over.

There it is again I dont know what I am talking about in spite of living with it for over 50 years.
Unlike you I dont belong to any political party I dont have my strings pulled to come on here and spout party poltical propaganda I post it as I see it and personally experiance it shame you cant as well troll.
16

Number 6,

Germany 10/12/2008 08:11:51
The SNP need to make improvements in these areas. Clearly the teaching staff in Scottish schools are second rate compared to Englandshire, assuming these figure are correct.

What intrigues me is that they are listed as seperate countries. Surely the unionistas are not going to stand for that ?.

Have to say though, I find it impossible to believe that standards in Englandshire are higher than Germany
in maths and science. Sorry.
17

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:16:23
18

They are not I believe this story is another made up sham.
18

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:17:41
19

Oh right English teachers talking up the success of English teachers coincidently at the same time this story comes out along with its table yes I like how its neatly all put together.
19

Fecker,

10/12/2008 08:19:43
and here's me thinking that we had the best teachers in the world, just like we have the best police, and the best legal system....yawn....load of tosh, they like the kids they are teaching (or not teaching) are a waste of space
20

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:24:02
22

We probably have the amongst the worst motivated teachers in the world who now see it as a job of work rather than a vocation. Its an Education system which seems to be designed specifically to wear them down.
21

brianmca3,

auld reekie 10/12/2008 08:27:07
scotland was once the envy of the world in education,but tinkering from westminster by both liebour and tory fixed it
liebour had 2 terms of office in scotland and their leader was a teacher,so how come the snp admin gets the blame for all the years of oinionist tinkering
i see rufis the dufis is back again as another groucho character
well as westminster has more than 3 stooges
scotland has its own eejit to spout his rubbish
why not be like harpo marx
he did,nt speek
22

Number 6,

Germany 10/12/2008 08:27:33
I see that it is being proposed, south of the border,
that primary schools will drop subjects like Geography and History for more "Life based" subjects.

How can such appalling ideas come out of a system that is apparently leading the way in subjects like maths and science?.
23

Marian,

10/12/2008 08:28:02
This deterioration didn't just happen overnight under the new SNP led Scots Government - it is the unfortunate result of a decade of mismanagement of the Scots Education system by the previous New Labour led Scots "Executive" and its Liberal/Democrat allies.
24

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:29:57
If the education systems in the far east are getting much better results then shouldnt we be taking a leaf out of their books instead of plodding along with half baked and idiotic education reforms based on cutting costs rather than producing effective education programs?
25

Alikin,

Nr Hawick 10/12/2008 08:32:05
These league table results need to be treated with a large pinch of salt. They only take a sample of the children in each nation and that is not necessarily representative. England's huge leap forward is more likely to be a statistical fluke than anything meaningful.

I question whether we should be teaching science in primary schools at all. Here's why
1. Most primary teachers do not have science degrees.
2. Many do not have science qualifications above O level.
3. A significant number hate teaching science for the above reasons.
3. Most primary classes are too large for practical activities in science.
4. There are no dedicated science rooms in primary schools.
5. There are no technicians backing up the teaching staff.

My view is that what is taught in the seven years of primary could be taught in a month or two at secondary by specialist teachers with the right back up. As a new subject it would have a freshness of appeal which it loses by being introduced too soon.

I hope this spurious league table is not going to result in yet another curricular review. If these results mean anything they mean that years of tampering with the curriculum have resulted in failure.


26

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10/12/2008 08:33:32
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10/12/2008 08:34:15
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,

10/12/2008 08:34:40
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10/12/2008 08:35:16
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,

10/12/2008 08:36:02
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10/12/2008 08:36:55
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,

10/12/2008 08:37:28
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:41:00
31

Why cant the TIMSS report be a sham then?

33

You would support feeding kids school dinners based on horse sh.t if the policy came from Westminster.

34

How about just getting better quality government?

35

I am sure that means something to somebody somewhere.
34

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10/12/2008 08:45:13
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10/12/2008 08:46:43
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:48:35
29

OH blah blah blah not party political Blah blah.
How on earth you think you can convince anybody on here youre not another Scotsman/Labour troll account with youre obvious level and style of posting and sh.t stirring is beyond me.
Youre so transparent you dont even try to hide it anymore.

I particularly love this bit:

"In fact the guy 1sitting next to me is a highly experienced and capable technical expert, he's on £28k, he's 43 years old and has just adopted two kids, his wife works part time."

If his 28k salary is sufficient then why is his wife working part time when she has 2 extra kids to look after at home. you moron!!!!

You cant even lie effectively without making a total tool of yourself.
37

Calvinist,

10/12/2008 08:52:11
Whilst these figures are depressing they were entirely predictable. Science education has not been taken seriously in Scotland for at least a generation. Witness the present Scottish government’s attitude towards the Glasgow Science Centre and their cavalier attitude towards the funding of Higher Education in general which particularly damages science departments. Meanwhile in England (a country that hitherto had a rather low level of scientific literacy- remember C.P.Snow’s ‘Two Cultures’) this problem as been addressed admirably, so much so that in one of the categories English pupils have risen from 25th to 7th in the world rankings. As a matter of urgency, the present Scottish administration needs to consult with their English counterparts and find out how they achieved this remarkable turnaround. This issue is much more important that the future of HBOS to Scotland and if Scottish politicians and businesspeople were true patriots, they would be devoting ten times the energy they’ve put into saving HBOS to saving Scottish Science.
38

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10/12/2008 08:53:45
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39

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 08:56:17
43

Well that wasnt a standard troll post at all was it?
40

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10/12/2008 09:06:45
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The Tin Man,

10/12/2008 09:09:51
A. T. Scot claiming he is 50 now? That'll be shining bright in the night... or he somehow managed to forget all about the 1970's....

Anyway, nice wind-up, lad.

42

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10/12/2008 09:11:00
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:11:07
45

Profit eh? and now we have a direct link to the other troll names and the same sh.t stirring pattern.
Given up on the education topic already? hardly surprising youre obviously clueless unless the information is spoon fed to you in government rhetoric.
44

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10/12/2008 09:11:46
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ebilmoglin,

10/12/2008 09:11:47
Having just moved abroad with 2 kids - one P7 one S2 - I can only agree that Scottish school standards are behind the moon. Both kids have been straight A-Students and are now struggling with the same age group here as they are way advanced. There's things being taken for granted here my kids never even heard about. Let me just point out one incident from last week. P7 review European countries and capitals. No prob said the little one, we've covered that already last year. Well, turns out what they had done last year was core Europe without the Eastern part, without the Northern part. The other one had no idea how to use different tenses in English reported speech. How embarrassing.. Similar stories in every subject in both classes. And just before anyone asks, no, there is NO language barrier as they are fluent in both languages. But it's not only that the teaching is not up to standard, there is much more to school like handling your own paperwork, using your own notes filed neatly or in jotters, and bringing your own materials to school. We do have the cost of books taken over by the government here but I find it perfectly acceptable for everyone to bring their own pencils and rulers. Teaches them to take responsibility, teaches them to prepare themselves for their job at school. My kids haven't been taught any of this. As I said before, they used to be straight A-Students, both of them, and they struggle. Sad. So stop the watering down of standards and kick a few butts. Make the kids work and stop mollycuddling them for heaven's sake!
46

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:12:45
46

Whats to remember? I finished School and joined the army.
47

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10/12/2008 09:13:15
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:14:53
46

No I said I was over 50 do you feel a compulsive need to switch accounts or are you just getting embarassed as Vincent?
49

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 09:15:13
It makes good headlines but if you read the Boston report there is very little difference difference between the top and bottom 30 of the 59 countries,
and many are just a few points off the the mean average score.

The vast majority of these 59 countries, including Scotland, ALL have excellent educational attainment standards in maths and science!

This report, which comes out every 4 years, can only be judged against previous studies in which Scotland has always done favourably.

In the past, the Boston study has been criticised because much of its alleged research is "anecdotal". In other words: ask a head/teacher if he/she feels she is allowed enough preparation time in the classroom.

Like every armchair expert with a PhD in criticism, it is comical how all these amateur dominies are only too quick to criticise these results without either having read the report, or having a clue what form the research takes?

It is also laughable how the the Opposition supporters are attacking the Nationalist Government when the bulk of the alleged study took place when the Labour/Lib-Dem coalition was in power.

The Boston study was completed in June, 2007!
50

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:16:55
52

Look more like very much on topic rhetoric than original thought to me.
51

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10/12/2008 09:17:30
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:18:23
54

Yep is all spinning bullsh.t from a state run propaganda sheet posing as a free press newspaper.
53

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10/12/2008 09:18:26
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10/12/2008 09:20:29
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:20:36
56

Its not the data thats the problem its the interpretation of that data and the selective use of it that causes the distortion of its purpose.
All very Zanu Liebour and political.
56

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:21:31
59

Yes all copied from the same source and distributed on cue from the same political office no doubt.
57

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:22:32
58

Try posting original thoughts puppet.
58

django,

edinburgh 10/12/2008 09:26:34
I have been saying for the past ten years that the level of maths and english (most important subjects)being taught is horrendous they dont get any homework
especially in primary schools and to be honest I dont thing the teachers have the same qualifications they had 30 years ago
59

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10/12/2008 09:27:57
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:34:46
63

They dont the shortage is so cronic they employ many part time and student teachers to fill the gaps.
Its all about cost cutting. Its Tory policy to cut services everywhere and we have had 30 years of Tory government agenda and here is the result an almost total collapse of the public sector and more and more resources given over to the private sector where competition is supposed to keep costs down but does exactly the opposite. Our higher education institutes are now run as business ventures and not acedemic institutes. They teach for profit not acheivement and the quality of the courses is evident to anybody who has personal experiance of them.
61

Yes We Can,

Ayr 10/12/2008 09:35:10
In response to comment #6:

Have you done the Maths?

You quote the statistics that 8% of UK population is in Scotland. Agreed, this sounds about right.

You state "12 new english undergraduates for every 1 new scottish undergraduate 2008 entry". Well that is approcimately the balance that you would expect given that Scots account for less than 1 in 12 of the UK population and we have a higher percentage of elderly citizens.

You then say:
"7% of Scotland domiciled fulltime new undergraduates 2008 elected to study in England."

In other words 0.07 x 1/13 = 0.0054 (percentage of UK graduates who study in England but are Scottish domiciles)

"1% of England domiciled fulttime new undergraduates 2008 elected to study in Scotland"
In other words 0.01 x 12/13 = 0.0092 (percentage of UK graduates who study in Scotland but are English domiciles)

So by your own figures, more graduates come from England to study in Scotland, than Scots go to England.

What were you trying to prove.

And yes, I am a Scot with a degree in Physics!
62

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10/12/2008 09:35:32
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63

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:35:48
64

I must admit that looks like the kind of original thought I can relate to you well done.
64

Matt 54321,

10/12/2008 09:37:50
We already know the Scots are bad at maths. Look at the state of the Scottish banks. Or Alex Salmond's view of Scotland's economic wealth.
65

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:40:46
67

So? she doesnt say anywhere in that statement she agrees or disagrees with it she only points out it exists. Is there any doubt that it actually exists? has somebody challanged the existance of the report or were you trying so hard to make another point but failed again miserably because youre a bit dense and cant really cope without somebody handing over the latest piece of rhetoric or statistic to post?
66

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10/12/2008 09:43:33
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:47:22
71

Like I said we have had 30 years of public sector resources given over to the private sector so its hardly surprising if the private sector comes out on top is it? It has been all about the dismantalling of the public sector in favour of the private sector which you obviously agree with and why? because it Westminster policy and you have no original nor personal opinions on the matter.
Thank you for confirming everything I have posted on this subject to date.
68

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10/12/2008 09:47:47
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10/12/2008 09:50:24
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:51:31
73

Again all they are doing is pointing out what is in the report and not committing to supporting nor denying the conclusions. So again all you prove here is the report exists and folk are reading it so what?
Was there any other point to bringing this up or did somebody pull the wrong string?
71

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:54:17
74

Depends on whats acheived and the price thats paid.
72

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:56:11
Has anybody compared this report with previous reports to see if there is a trend?
73

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10/12/2008 09:56:29
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 09:58:24
79

Ok thats a reasonable point of view but how do you judge what is best in the private sector compared to what is best in the public sector? what criteria or comparison do you use?
75

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:01:10
79

You say you dont like dogma but we have had 30 years of dogma pushing privatisation at the expense of public services and it hasnt worked if it had I would support it myself.
76

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:04:38
79

Lets face it some services belong in the public domain such as health education and utilities the rest you can argue a case both ways but the essentials should not be given over for somebody to hold the nation to ransom with.
77

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10/12/2008 10:05:19
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10/12/2008 10:09:24
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:10:07
83

I didnt say it was a good idea I said it was a reasonable view.
I couldnt care less if you post abuse or not I am a big boy and gave up crying a long time ago. I suspect you only do it in order to provoke a similar response so you can have an excuse to delete my account anyway.

The problem is political therefore the solution has to be political as well like I said do you or do you not agree certain services belong in the public domain and should never have been handed over to the private domain to make profit at the expense of quality?
80

Peter20,

10/12/2008 10:13:36
A True Scot - the problem is not wages. Teachers do get paid adequately. However, following your argument through I assume you would encourage the government to increase the wages and once we have enough people of sufficient calibre we then sack all the current teachers for their incompetence? A real vote winner! There are great teachers and their are useless teachers - much the same as in any profession on any wages. Paying great wages does not always guarantee good quality staff - look at all the incompetent bankers! To me the differences between Scotland and England don't seem huge, and the reasons we are behind a number of countries may well be outwith the teacher's control. The reasons should be looked into but I don't think there is a need for a great panic and a search for an easy scapegoat (be it Westnminster, Holyrood, Teahchers themselves) achieves nothing.
81

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 10:14:14
The Rose Survey (14 - 15 year olds)

Reactions to science at school

* school science provides little motivational interest for pupils taking the less demanding courses
* only a small minority“like school science better than most other subjects”
* few agreed that school science has taught them to think more critically
* pupils rated primary school science as neither interesting nor a good preparation for secondary
* there was very strong support for the benefits of practical work

This survey was from 2006.
82

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:18:55
84

I cant subscribe to a two tier health service no matter how its dressed up. You only have to look at what happened to the dental practices to see what happens with two tier profit driven services.
The same applies to the utilities they have become money printing machines generating massive bonus based salaries for company directors at the expense of customers.
And as for education well the higher education institutes now charge extortionate fees to both domestic and foreign students which the government now forces students into heavy debt to pay for.
And transportation hasnt improved with public finance has it? so can you provide any examples where privatisation has actually worked for the public?
83

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:20:04
86

Why sack them anything wrong in training them properly and giving them full time employment instead at public expense of course?
84

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:21:54
87

Japanese students are actually motivated to compete with one another. They have something to look forward to when they leave school with the right academic acheivement which is certainly not the case here is it?
85

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:29:47
Professions such as teaching nursing engineering used to be vocational. People wanted to enter these professions because

1. they were secure and steady.
2. they had perks such as pensions, benefits, skills training.
3. A salary above the cost of living. not big but comfortable.
4. A sense of acheivement and social acceptability (i.e they were honourable professions)

So which of the above applies today?
86

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 10:30:05
90

Unfortunately "competition" is a bad word in education.
Everybody's to be a winner apparently.

(ps - you misunderstood my posts yesterday)
87

brianmca3,

auld reekie 10/12/2008 10:31:06
the timss was done april/may 07 the labour lot were in charge when that report was done,so all those cheep remarks aimed at salmon are not justified as he wasnt first minister then,it was jack mconnel and his fib dem cronies
so we see where the blame lies,but brown will no doubt paint it as an snp fault which it clearly is not
88

Alan B,

10/12/2008 10:31:42
To an extent it points to the failure of labour over the last decade in power in scotland. The whole mcrone educational reforms have not given the results for the investment made.

Labour to a large extent pumped mony into the system but did not ensure the end results.

In general terms scottish education is far to bureaucratic, far too unionised and far too complacent that it, had a good education system.

Discipline is also one of the main factors along with lack of parental support.

It is noticable labour in england was more reform driven that labour in scotland. It seems labour in england understood the situation and problems better and were not so blinded by ideology.



89

Alan B,

10/12/2008 10:33:58
"Ann Ballinger, president of the Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association, said:

"There are generic science classes, which means if you are, for example, a physicist you are not teaching your own subject.""

That attitude is one of the problems with scottish education.

Teaching is about being able to teach and the subject knowledge if less important particularly at that level. Anyway subject knowlegdge is less important in scotland than having a bit of paper. Real skills are undervalued.

90

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:35:20
92

No you mistakenly reacted to one of my posts directed at somebody else but I forgive you I was dealing with that idiot SM753 at the same time.
91

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 10:37:38
96

Aye well then - fair enough.
(Forgive is a bit strong though).
92

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:39:25
94

Nobody is motivated anymore Alan its because most of us are living below the cost of living standards. everything the average person earns is already earmarked to pay off debts and leaves very little if anything left over for luxuries and that is the problem with all the public sectors in a nutshell.
simplistic in the extreme I agree but nevertheless a fundamental problem that has to be dealt with before getting into detail regarding individual professions.
If you dont deal with the fundamentals then the you cant effectively deal with the rest.
93

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:39:55
97

Ok I was only pulling your chain a wee bit there.
94

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 10:42:18
94

In fact luxuries for most can only be obtained by getting into further debt with credit.
The evidence is plain to see.
95

Alan B,

10/12/2008 10:53:03
#98 A True Scot

"Nobody is motivated anymore "

While that is overstating it, i do agree with you to some extent.

With the 70s and 80s many people stopped believing that education mattered and could improve their lives. A culture of underachievement by some has grown up. The children of that generation have inherited the low expectations of their parents.

The thing is their are a lot of opportunities for people if they are educated and you can earn decent money as a result. May have to leave scotland though and go south like many graduates.

But the idea that there is nothing out there leads as you say to low motivation and that feeds from parent to child and to school discipline.

It also does not help that most teachers have little outside experience of the workplace in general. To an extent i think it would be better if we recruited teachers at 30 having had a decade of working in the outside environments and allow that experience to be brought to the classroom.
96

Alan B,

10/12/2008 10:57:36
#A True Scot

I do not think that there are the limited opportunities as you say. Yes you will have to be prepared to move to where the work is and work hard as skilling yourself.

The problem is a lack of believe that there is few opportunities and the lack of motivation and understanding how to achieve. A mentor type of thing can be very important. ie friends and family that achieve.

One thing that i notice with scotland is the number of non scots that can achieve good salaries in scotland but while some scots born and reared do not take these opportunities.
97

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:07:48
101

Oh come on 70s and 80s? not in my personal experiance. During the 70s it was all the rage to get into professional occupations even the armed forces was popular as was the Police and even the Post office. The big public institutes took on the bulk of school and college leavers by offering "jobs for life" benefits and pensions. Relatively few went for the private sector because as I stated somewhere earlier the private sector was only interested in taking on experianced personnel and rarely recruited directly from educational institutes unless they intended putting them through specific training courses and then they only took the academic cream of the crop.
The low motivational rot can easily be traced from the late 80s through the 90s with the boom and bust and the encouragement into high credit spending.
The 70s was no enlightened nor devine period but relative to what followed it was a time where people generally tried to acheive rather than tried to survive.
And lets face it the cost of living seriously soared during the 90s more so than any other decade I have experianced so far at least.
98

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:09:21
102

The majority of non Scots who have acheived higher salaries only came here because thats what they were offered to move.
99

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:12:03
101

The thing is their are a lot of opportunities for people if they are educated

Let me correct that for you and make it more acccurate

there are a lot of opportunities for people if they are educated "AND EXPERIANCED".
100

Phil the Flooter,

10/12/2008 11:13:40
#18

Where the F ECK is Englandshire? Is that next to Scotlandshire then?

101

Malc Dow,

10/12/2008 11:14:38
So many replies, so little sense.
Look at the hash the government have made over the basic financial system!
Is it not they who should be doing the maths?
why pick on the kids?
Aghast!

Malc
102

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 11:15:41
106

Englandshire, Scotlandshire, Irelandshire and Walesshire.
103

Malc Dow,

10/12/2008 11:15:46
"Minister orders crisis summit after Scots pupils fall behind in maths and science"

Should read:
Minister orders crisis summit after Ministers fall behind in maths and science
104

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 11:16:10
Acht - it was for 104.
105

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:17:21
104

I think its that little peninsular South of the devine nation of Scotland.
106

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:18:09
#103 A True Scot

I think the low motivation rot set in before the late 80s. The mass unemployment of the early 80s devasted many communities. There was a general hopelessness of the country in the 70s ie known as the sick man of europe.

Since about mid 90s there have been much more job opportunities but it take a while for that culturally to filter through. (the debt issue is something different).

People if they see no jobs see little point in sticking in at school. Or if they think all they can achieve is a dead end job.

I think you have to appreciate the sheer hopelessness that the early 80s shake out caused and the massive recession of the early 80s.
107

Malc Dow,

10/12/2008 11:20:04
#103
"101

Let me correct that for you and make it more acccurate

there are a lot of opportunities for people if they are educated "AND EXPERIANCED".
--------

Please use the built in spell checker!
No point making statements about "acccurate" and "EXPERIANCED" when you can't spell the words...
Think about it. Actually, better not. Brain damage ensues thinking about anything these days.

Malc
108

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:20:06
#102 A True Scot

"The majority of non Scots who have acheived higher salaries only came here because thats what they were offered to move."

People i know it is more there is a job advertised and they apply like everything else. They jump to the next job and next one on the same basis.

109

Malc Dow,

10/12/2008 11:21:51
Sorry Rules but not Rulers (like the moniker btw!)
You beat me to it, not with a ruler I trust.
110

Phil the Flooter,

10/12/2008 11:22:56
104 A True Scot- what Andy Devine? :-)
111

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:25:34
#103 A True Scot

"there are a lot of opportunities for people if they are educated "AND EXPERIANCED"."

I think that is very true particulary at first. It is difficult to get the break. That is why so many of our graduates go south. In london it is much easier to get a job with little experience.

Once you are on the career ladder it is again easier to jump for one job to another without good knowledge as you have "experience" and companies will take you on on the basis that you will quickly pick up the new skills.

So you are right that getting the initial opportunities can be hard.

Also if you mess about at school and do not achieve, outside the trades you have made it very difficult to recover that position and will to a large extent be doomed to a lower wage.



112

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:27:28
110

The mass unemployment was due to specific areas of employment being devastated by Government dogma in short the once thriving Steel, ship building, and coal industries those not affected were in fact the large public sector employers such as the Post office which included todays British Telecomm the civil service the police force the NHS the utility companies etc.
These specialists employed within these industries werent given any help or training to more on to something else so very useful skilled workers where in fact badly let down.
The worse period for this was of course the second half of the 80s and early 90s was it not?
during the 70s these industries had very powerful unions who were very good at protecting jobs. If one industry was targetted they all came out in support. It wasnt until Thatcher destroyed the power of the unions that enabled her to force large scale redundancies. Come on Alan you know all this as well as I do so stop tip toeing around it.
113

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:30:42
116

It is no more easier to get a skilled job in London than anywhere else without the relevant experiance but there certainly are more vacancies understandably considering the population ratio.

Yes that is correct companies would rather headhunt or recruit existing workforces than take on somebody new and give them the training or job experiance which I believe has to change.
114

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:34:12
#A True Scot

I was not trying to move the discussion to why the economy was in a mess but more the fact that it was and my view that the economic hopelessness filtered into lack of motivation for education due to lack of jobs.

"The worse period for this was of course the second half of the 80s and early 90s was it not?"

The worst period was the early 80s. The uk started to recover by 86 boomed in 87 and 88 before the inflation caused by mishandling black monday caused the recession of the early 90s.

The 70s were more a period of hopelessness. The Heath tory government of the early 70s was a shambles. And then the labour government afterwards brought about 25% inflation, failed incomes policies, winter of discontent and imf banana republic type baile outs.

115

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:34:21
115

Done it again havent I? No Divine as in Holy, blessed, sacred.
116

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:37:38
120

It was a false boom though Alan and ultimatly only headed for bust it was based on borrowing and credit.
It was also the period when house prices shot through the roof and left the average house buyer no chance of getting on the property market without incurring crippling debt. In short the last 30 years have been an abject failure at society level for the vast majority. The dogma has not worked time for change.
117

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:38:05
#A True Scot

"It is no more easier to get a skilled job in London than anywhere else without the relevant experiance "

From personal experience i would have to disagree. It is largely a result of a booming southern economy while the north is much more slow growing.

Once you are on the career ladder then you can jump jobs with less relevent direct skills (that may/will reduce now the economy has downturned).

118

Phil the Flooter,

10/12/2008 11:42:50
119 Jane oh I see..

As an Englishman I just wanted clarification.
I was born in Suffolkshire by the way.

You mean there are actually Scots who make derogatory remarks about England?

New one on me..
119

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:43:44
119

I agree Scotland needs to encourage immigration but not migration I think England is full to capacity. There seems to be a massive imbalance in immigration numbers. Scotland should have its own immigration policy and control of its own borders rather than allowing the policy to be dictated by London.
for example what would happen if millions of immigrants granted access to the UK suddenly decided to move to Scotland en mass? what would stop them?
they are all ready entitled but we dont have the resources to accomodate them.
We certainly need some immigration but it has to be filtered and controlled.
120

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:44:38
124

derogatory remarks about England? where could we possibly find the material from?
121

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:44:47
#122 A True Scot

I am not trying to make this a conversation of the economy and economic policy. I am just saying for the people the result of mass unemployment of the 80s and the hopelessness of the 70s caused a serious decay in attitudes. This was understandable as many could not see the value of education due to dead end jobs or no jobs.

The attitude has fed into their children and causes low motivation and esteem.

Parental attitudes can be very limiting for their children.

Parental lack of achievement and knowledge can be very limiting for their children.

In some ways if your parent worked in say shipbuilding and you expected to leave and do the same school was irrelevent. Then their attitude to education will reflect on their children. As such it is about how to change cultural views to deal with the skilled economy.

122

Phil the Flooter,

10/12/2008 11:47:13
126 these forums perhaps?

You dont like me because I was born in Englandshire?
123

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:50:32
127

Hopelessness of the 70s? I rather enjoyed the 70s Alan and dont remember any outbreak of hopelessness and I lived on the wrong side of the tracks.
Folk were still living high from the 60s and for the first time the average blue collar worker felt more in control and secure which would last up to the early 80s. The unions ruled which did cause conflict and unrest but it also brought a sense of empowerment to the average worker not previously known and certainly not known since.
124

Phil the Flooter,

10/12/2008 11:50:47
Hi Jane

Im sure Ive passed through Middlesexshire, I now live in Perthshire, which is a lovely shire.
125

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:53:25
128

Derogatory remarks should be earned as should praise its a measure of something when you compare its praises with its critics.
126

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 11:57:34
133

Not with that drivel youre not.
127

Phil the Flooter,

10/12/2008 11:58:29
Hi Jane

Just a bit of BANTER (how often have I heard that )

Lighten up folks..
128

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 11:59:04
Hardly surprising is it? The only science we are fed now is junk science and most people's idea of doing maths is Start->Programs->Accessories->Calculator.
129

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 12:00:00
I'm living in Spainshire.
130

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 12:00:25
South of Franceshire.
131

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 12:01:20
136 Petrolhead (for it was he)

Regarding your "Start->Programs->Accessories->Calculator"

I've lost mine. Any idea where it is?
132

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:05:10
#A True Scot

I am not talking about whether you personally enjoyed the 70s. My points were more if you can only get dead end jobs, if there are no or few jobs then that lead to hopelessnes and lack of motivation. Also to some extend if your parents were not in jobs backed by education then your expectations of education were much more limited and hence in general would have a limiting factor on preparing for the new skills and knowledge economy.

As for the 70s the reason the heath tory government and the callahan labour government were kicked out after one term was the mess of the economy. Much of the economic shambles of the 70s was caused by short termist economic policies in the 60s.
133

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:09:03
113

If people move North to South for better oportunities and salaries then why are there people moving South to North if it isnt the same motivation? are they deliberately trying to downgrade?
134

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10/12/2008 12:09:13
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135

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:11:50
140

And I told you from my own personal experiance that during the 70s there was massive employment opertunities available within the large public sector companies and no more feelings of hopelessness than experianced at any other time.
People were certainly a hell of a lot more motivated back then than they are now because they were generally still living at or above the cost of living standards unlike today.
136

antifa,

10/12/2008 12:13:01
Why do some people say "Englandshire" instead of England and "unionistas" instead of unionists?

This it totally meaningless - I mean literally meaningless. It says nothing about England, nor about unionists, to inflect these words in this way.

Look: I can say "Scotlandshire" and "nationalistas" - but why the hell would I? I don't want to look like an idiot so I say Scotland and nationalists.

Can someone explain this to me? Is it just a teenage thing?

137

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:14:04
#A True Scot

Not sure what your point is.

Many scottish graduates go south due to the more job opportunities.

I did the same. Only intended to stay a yr at the begining but the vast number of opportunities relative to scotland meant I stayed longer. Came back to scotland after i had enough experience in the job market to make getting positions up here easier.

Many people i know did the same thing by going south.

In general people that move to scotland will have some decent experience under their belt first.

138

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:16:04
142

I certainly agree that the unions were too powerful at that time but we seem to have gone from one extreme to another. We need unions with teeth not with fangs or just gums.
A lot of good comes from having unions. Health and safety at work for one thing. Paid holidays for another. Regular breaks for lunch etc.
It doesnt work when they are too powerful nor does it work if they have no power at all. There has to be a balance which allows the unions to represent the workforce effectively but still allows management to manage and we cant seem to get the balance right in this country.
139

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:17:15
145

You can say the same about folk from the Highlands comming down to Edinburgh and Glasgow for the job oportunities its all relative.
140

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10/12/2008 12:18:05
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141

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 10/12/2008 12:18:05
If it is any consolation, Queensland is now rated behind Kazakhstan. I suppose that would be better than Antarctica in some subjects. Some of these Killer whales are pretty smart though.
142

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:20:16
148

Well I am happy for you pity youre the exception rather than the rule though.
143

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:21:29
#A True Scot

Do you seriously think kids in the 70s at school were more educationally motivated in general than now?

Do you seriously think kids of blue collar workers who thought they would go into the same jobs in say ship yards were educationally motivated?

I think in general terms there is a greater understanding of the importance of education now with the skilled economy but there is a section of the population who do not achieve their potential due to low expections and parental input etc. And to some extent feelings of hopelessness.
144

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10/12/2008 12:21:33
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145

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 12:22:29
Ah the 70s

Oil crisis, strikes, blackouts, rubbish piling in the streets, inflation 7%, wage increases 14% or more, speed limit cut to 50mph on motorways to save fuel, 3 day week, TV cut off at 10:30pm (no loss there) ... those were the days.
146

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:23:42
#147 A True Scot

Do not disagree.

But the point we were discussing was the point you made regarding not just being education but experienced. I agreed with that and related that to myself and others who went down to london to gain that experience to open doors.
147

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:24:40
151

Yes actually I do. For one thing higher education was free to anybody who could gain the academic qualifications at O and H level.
Where is the motivation in having School leavers incur massive debt before they even have a chance to earn a penny?
148

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:27:12
154

I was lucky I gained my first experiance in Edinburgh taken on by a publically owned company with only my qualifications although I was the second choice the first choice got a better offer somewhere else and moved on before he even started.
149

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10/12/2008 12:34:50
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150

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:35:31
#155 A True Scot

Well then we fundamentally disagree. Education was free in the 80s but there was sheer hopelessness due to mass unemployment and that reduced education motivation as the why bother there will be not jobs attitude prevailed.

Why do you think if you are going to leave school and work in a ship yard or a mine etc would you be motivated to study hard a school particularly if your parents had little educational achievement?

"Where is the motivation in having School leavers incur massive debt before they even have a chance to earn a penny?"

I do not support fees for higher education. But the motivation for incurring the debt of fees would be the fact that you will generally ensure that you get a better job with more money. If you leave school and are not skilled and go into the workplace in a skilled economy with no path to skill yourself you will end up in a dead end job with considerably less pay.

Lets face it while the economy is in a mess due to brown bad management in general over the past 15 yrs there has been tonnes of good highly paid jobs for anybody that wants them. And by want i means sticks in at school and achieves and then works hard and skills themselves. Yes non achievement educationally you can still do well if you get a trade under your belt or have the aptitude to open your own business.





151

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:40:16
#Vincent-W

Hopefully your kid will get a decent opportunity to be a teacher when he qualifies.

I remember talking to a student teacher (around 1992) who was told it would take 5 yrs to get a permanent teaching post in scotland.

A few others i know headed to london to teach as scotland was just a pain to get a teaching job. ie they trained more than the number of posts available. The bureacratic rules means that there is little flexibility over subject areas.
152

Alan B,

10/12/2008 12:44:06
#157 Vincent-W

I do think you have a good point about the motivation that parents give to their kids and the expectations they will then have.

There is no point in being person with "True Scot" but the feelings of hopelessness he feels is bound to effect the views of his children and effect their motivation and level of expectations.

It is not meant to be critism of him but it a problem we have with a section of society whose expectations are low when there are actually alot of opportunities.


153

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10/12/2008 12:51:51
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154

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:52:05
157

Yes of course proof positive and would be accepted by all standards of scientific experimental measurement.
Youre case is unassailable how can I possibly argue with such definitive evidence?
155

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 12:58:35
158

Oh please I am getting that AM2 feel about you again.
Didnt I already state the rot started in the 80s?
and the hopelessness a direct result of social upheaval due to the cost of living rising faster than the means to live within it?

"I do not support fees for higher education. But the motivation for incurring the debt of fees would be the fact that you will generally ensure that you get a better job with more money"

But that most definitly is not the case today is it? there no longer is a public sector massively recruiting school leavers and students.
There is debt with the possiblity of not having a chance to pay it off for decades. Going over old ground again very AM2ish.
156

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10/12/2008 13:00:42
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157

,

10/12/2008 13:02:32
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158

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 13:02:49
160

There is no point in being person with "True Scot" but the feelings of hopelessness he feels is bound to effect the views of his children and effect their motivation and level of expectations.

It is not meant to be critism of him but it a problem we have with a section of society whose expectations are low when there are actually alot of opportunities

That is just a pathetic statement and only reinforces what I believe that youre just another troll account as I stated the other day.

The oportunities you refer to are for the experianced and qualified not for the newly qualified. going over old ground again.
159

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 13:05:13
165

You on the other hand only have to know the information originated from Westminster to take it as gospel or pretend to.
160

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 13:06:05
Vincent

"years ago I considered teaching in Scotland, but the inbuilt rigidity meant that I could only teach Chemistry. Now I've tutored kids successfully in Physics, Biology and Mathematics up to higher but in Scotland I wouldn't be allowed to teach them in Scottish schools even at S1 and S2 levels"

Teachers with a degree in any of the single sciences are allowed to teach general science, but your point is correct. Here's a crazy one for you.

A few years ago we had a physics teacher off ill. We had on the staff a chemistry teacher who studied physics at university but wasn't "qualified" to teach it. With a bit of jiggery-pokery, I could have altered the timetables (short-term) to allow the physics students to be taught in the run up to the Highers and Standard Grades by the chemistry teacher.

I was told by the education department that I wasn't to do this. We were then sent a supply teacher to cover the classes. He was a history specialist.

161

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 13:07:35
164

BTW the collective noun for a group of trolls is a flange of trolls.
162

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 13:10:32
152

Its government policy which is dragging the vast majority of people down including you. Only youre not allowed to complain or even acknowledge it in your propaganda trolling capacity.
163

Alan B,

10/12/2008 13:12:16
#Vincent-W

I found the same rigidity. I taught for a short time. One yr. Went down to London and taught computers. In scotland I was qualified to teach accounting and economics. A few years ago I considered maybe moving back into teaching. However you can only teach your specific area .

As such having worked in the IT industry for the last 15yrs working for alot of blue chip companies with vast experience, I could not teach computing/IT in scotland but could teach subjects which I only know from a textbook and whose subject area my knowledge would be a lot less.

164

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10/12/2008 13:16:33
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165

Alan B,

10/12/2008 13:20:06
#A True Scot

I have already agreed with you experience matters and it can be difficult getting the first job and opening. However the vast majority manage it, but it can be a difficult time.

Question: given that you were working in the 70s how do you know how easy or difficult it is now to get into the vast number of opportunities that are available within the uk today.
166

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10/12/2008 13:20:42
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167

Alan B,

10/12/2008 13:24:45
#True Scot

Do you not think parental input and expectations are important regarding the performance of their children educationally?

168

Darien,

Panama 10/12/2008 13:34:36
Far too many Scots are beyond help - just look at all the turkeys in Glenrothes who voted for Xmas, and will continue to do so in future. These folks believe anything Propaganda Minister Mandelson tells them, or whatever (Sir) Lurch Murphy scribbles on his daily press releases. These people probably still think Scotland would be worse off on its own, even though Britain led by Gordon Brownshirt has obviously failed Scotland already. Its not education they need, the turkeys ailment is a lot more serious than that.
169

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10/12/2008 13:45:07
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,

10/12/2008 14:00:30
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Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

10/12/2008 14:02:59
Hey Vincent W, do you not realise you are making a complete idiot of A True Scot?

He really does not need any help.



172

Fairfax,

10/12/2008 14:03:20
Darien (175): "Far too many Scots are beyond help"

I think you're worrying needlessly, as are the SNP. Scotland, together with all Western European nations included, fell into a fairly narrow band of roughly +/-5% on either side of the mean; see the original report for details:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2009001

It's not clear to me that these small differences are significant, particularly since the variation from year to year is unknown. It is, however, significant that the Chinese are doing so much better.

173

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 10/12/2008 14:06:11
I don't want to be accused of sexism, but the teaching profession has, particularly in primaries, become a largely female career. There are many able woman teachers but I doubt if their aptitudes were in science rather than in the fields of English, languages or other arts subjects.

Anyone, who has a degree in the sciences is more likely to have gone into industry and commerce, such as the oil industry, where salaries and opportunities are greater, than into the teaching profession.

This does not explain why Scotland has fallen behind England as both countries would have similar backgrounds for their teachers. It must be something in the way the subjects are being taught. It might be sensible that Scotland use the English teaching sylabuses in this instance, as it seems to me to be better than what is currently available in Scotland. I welcome Fiona Hyslop's taking the matter seriously as the education of our children is more important than party politicking.
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10/12/2008 14:07:15
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Andra, Dundee,

10/12/2008 14:35:03
Is this not a story about not a lot? Obviously we can't have the best results in Maths, Science, Arts, Literature, Sport, Etc, Etc. Is it possibly a sign of a more developed economy that there is more demand for Art type subjects - so if this is the demand then this is where schools should focus. I'm not suggesting that I know anything - just attempting to put the story in perspective. I suspect that somebody is trying to make sensation to sell papers and that this somebody is not well enough educated to properly analyse the situation.
176

SkeptikScot,

10/12/2008 14:46:51
#12, #16, #19, #22 (and many others).

There are lots here who are saying "It's a made up sham", Can't be right!", and "I had a great Scottish education" and "Union dividend". I'm worried that there is a lot of denial when we should be grasping the thistle, for the sake of our kids.

I had a very solid Scottish education but my impression is that things have slipped a great deal since (yes, including discipline). Many of the apprentices my firm has taken on have had to be taught certain basic numeracy skills that I'd have expected them to acquire about aged 13/14. That's just not good enough.
177

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 14:56:12
175

I am sure it would help if they didnt abuse nor beat them up everyday and also help with the homework or at least ensure its done but apart from that I dont see how any other input would make that much of a difference if any. I doubt a child seeing his or her parents sitting about the house with a torn or happy face would make any difference to their academic acheivements.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 14:59:43
174

Yes they rocketed up from 1st to 5th right enough.
What an idiot you really do remind me of SM753.
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10/12/2008 15:14:59
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10/12/2008 15:18:07
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:18:39
#A True Scot

I think you are under-valuing the important influence parents will have on their children and how that translates to academic achievement.

It is not about having a happy face but can manifest itself in many ways. Lack of parental support and guidance is probably the biggest reason for under achievement.

In general kids from educated parents will do better as school than those whose parents left school with few or no qualifications.

It can be very basic from having disciplined kids through to support and influence both directly and indirectly and then to the expectations of the kid and parents from education.

I would say parents who value education are more likely to have kids who will value it and that will translate into achievement.

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10/12/2008 15:21:56
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:23:00
#Vincent-W

Why do you think england has transformed itself while scotland has seemed have declined relatively?
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10/12/2008 15:23:32
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:25:02
#194 Vincent-W

:)
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Faux Cul,

10/12/2008 15:25:04
111
Rulesbutnotrulers,
Federation, not separation 10/12/2008 11:19:33

Try not to be so supercilious please, no spellchecker used.

Besides it is is, or my one is, americanis(z)ed.
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:30:16
#A True Scot

Confidence plays a large part aswell and parents among others play a role in developing confidence.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:30:53
191

People are generally self motivating if they want something badly enough they will concentrate their efforts in getting it if they dont they wont.
What gets in the way of self motivation however is barriers constructed by society. The kind of society it is determines what those barriers are and who is affected most by them.
I think there are too many barriers in the wrong places forcing underachievment on too many people and right now one of the biggest barriers is cost and affordability.
190

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:32:47
188

So its impossible for orphans to acheive anything is it?
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10/12/2008 15:33:48
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:34:29
189

Ah I see your problem you like to use time frames in order to fit a statement of fact pertinant within that time frame for all time frames they generally refer to that as spin.
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:36:17
#A True Scot

But this is school and school is free. Why are primary kids underperforming? Why do people underperform at school in secondary.

I do not agree children are self motivating in the way you describe. Kids will be motivated with confidence and with expectations and achievement.

Parents that take an interest in their childs education, that ensure their kid is disciplined, within a well disciplined school with other kids achieving and motivated will tend to achieve.

Indian kids do better at school that white scottish kids and that I believe is largely down to the parents.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:37:07
200

Its really amazing how every aspect of your argument fits in nicely with UK Government rhetoric.
I would go so far as to say it actually mirrors it.
I wonder how many other folk are so in tuned with the UK government as to form their own opinions in such a clonish way?
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:40:29
202

There is a saying that there is no such thing as a bad student only a bad teacher. I think that is too simplistic myself but if you have a single bad student then only that student is affected but if you have a single bad teacher then a whole class or classes of students are affected.
Best to ensure the teachers are up to scratch rather than the pupils dont you think?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:40:52
#A True Scot

After school I agree people are self motivating but much comes from the formative yrs ie school. But opportunity motivates. Higher expectations motivate.

Over the last 15yrs their has been alot of opportunity for people and the question is why can some people grasp the nettle and others not. What are the real barriers and what can government do to address these issues.
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10/12/2008 15:44:03
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:44:11
#204 A True Scot

Yes good teachers are important.

But my point is good parents and higher expectations from parents giving support to their kid is probably more important.

Class room discipline is also very important and that comes from good teachers with kids who bring good discipline from the home.

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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:45:09
205

But oportunity motivates? are you referring to formative years in school or after? where is the motivation in school when most kids have no idea what they want to do after they leave? Most of them dream of being rock stars or firemen or pilots they dont have realistic expectations at that point so really the only motivation they have then is day dreams.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:48:09
207

No good teachers at vital not important.

What difference does it make to a child who has full parental support excellent teachers and a superb education if society turns around and kicks him in the teeth from day one on their own?
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:49:41
206

Oh youre obviously an orphan then. Or is it possible you actually under achieved with parents?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:50:59
#A True Scot

#202 was regarding school and #205 afterwards.

At school some pupils achieve others do not why? Is it just intelligence or is under performance. To me there is alot of underperformance.

Much of that comes from the parent, and the associated lack of expectations and support a parent can give. Good teachers, that make the class interesting and good discipline along with having friends who also achieve all play their part.

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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:52:23
206

Kind of defeats the purpose of putting them into care then doesnt it? and doesnt that fact alone not reinforce my argument regarding societies role in determining the acheivement levels of youngsters?
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10/12/2008 15:52:35
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:53:39
211

And what part is society playing in all of this Trumpton based scenario?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:54:55
#209

"What difference does it make to a child who has full parental support excellent teachers and a superb education if society turns around and kicks him in the teeth from day one on their own?"

Not sure specifically what you are trying to say and how that relates to educational performance of kids at school.

At the end of the day you achieve at school and then take lifes opportunities you will do well for yourself. If you under perform at school, have low expections, limited knowledge of the job market then it is much harder to recover and do well for yourself later on. Off course with a trade you can earn decent money without strong academic abilities. Or if you run your own business but it is more difficult.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:55:21
213

All kids have ambitions most of them are thwarted by society though or more accurately government dogma.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:56:13
215

Come off it its as clear as day what Im asking you always say that when you have no answer.
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10/12/2008 15:56:42
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 15:58:33
215

Yes Alan thats the theory but in practice you have to take into consideration the cost of living with regards to your means of living within it irrespective of what your personal ambitions are and deal with the reality of where you find yourself once you awake from the fairy tale you seem to have created.
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10/12/2008 15:58:53
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 15:59:08
#213 Vincent-W

Saw a santa job advertised in the job centre window last yr. But he is probably too young :)
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:00:13
218

Exactly they are ambitions not acheivements. I will never meet your kids or billions of other so what I do and say is not going to influence their dreams and ambitions one way or the other pity you cant say the same for the UK government though eh?
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10/12/2008 16:04:13
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 16:05:38
#A True Scot

I am not talking about fairy tales. I am talking about reality.

In the past 15 yrs unlike the decades before it there have been alot of high paying jobs. To be brutally honest if you have not positioned yourself into a decent paying job during the past 15 yrs that is largely down to the person. It could be ill health. It could be lack of educational achievement. Not skilled yourself. It could be lack of motivation and expectations. Or that you have been unwilling or unable to move to where the decent jobs are.

The issue is how to get those with ability but have not achieved and are therefore unmotivated to fulfill their potential.

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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:05:39
Alan

Orphans take the parents out of the equation altogether and according to SM753/Vincent they underachieve so not only does that take good parenting out of the equation but also bad and puts society in the spotlight for the responsiblity for the under achievement does it no?
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:06:25
223

Yes and it would be a lovely story if it had a shred of reality about it.
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10/12/2008 16:06:34
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:07:03
223

I actually dont believe you are older than 24 judging by your posting.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:07:48
227

I could be wrong you may even be a teenager.
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10/12/2008 16:08:58
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 16:09:14
#A True Scot

Unless you have ambitions you will unlike achieve in life. (yes amitition is not a motivating factor at primary but in later school and life it is).

If you do not have ambition and or expectatations to pass exams then you will not. If you do not have ambition or expectation to go and do a degree you will not.



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10/12/2008 16:09:59
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:11:22
224

What utter garbage and so very very Tory in its dogmatic rhetoric. All opinionated bullsh.t of course but unfortunatly even rabid right wing tories are entitled to their opinions.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:12:06
232

If you say so.
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10/12/2008 16:12:12
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:16:48
231

Ah so you do agree that most folk are self motivated then?
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:20:26
235

1. No it may be a sham
2. They may have contributed or are being selective with it to spin a certain false result.
3. Obviously not as in the case of Orphans.
4 God I hope so the sooner we are Independent the better. Plenty of jobs with no skills and some jobs for those with skills experiance and qualifications but most of them are already in work.
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 16:20:38
#A True Scot

Yes I am sure the tories will say their has been alot of opportunities under labour. I support independence due to believe scotland would have alot more opportunities if the economy was run better and believe like ireland we should not have to go to london for opportunities. But that is a side issue.

I do not support labour economic management over the past 6yrs due to having an understanding of how the economy works and knowing that it would all end in tears.

Why do you always have to insult rather than dealing with an issue?

Why is it garbage?

It is my experience after graduating in 1990 with a business type degree. Most of the people i know have done pretty well for themselves both those at school and those that did my degree.

I have agreed that getting in the door in the first place and getting that initial experience is the hardest part. But after that for most the last 15yrs getting decent jobs was very easy. And for most of those I know their experience has been the same.

But it will depend on your social groups and who you hung about with at school.
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 16:24:53
#A True Scot

Primary kids obviously are different but as kids get older and particularly after school motivation plays a large part. That is part of what i have been saying.

Within school motivation for a kids is influenced by the school, teachers, parents and friends. Parents play a huge role in influencing their kids from expectations, support to motivation and ambition.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:28:23
238

There is no difference in Labour or Conservative dogma anymore Alan they might as well join up and form a single party.

"Why do you always have to insult rather than dealing with an issue?"

I am doing both why are you complaining youre obviously provoking it deliberately?
I know you dont actually believe any of this garbage youre posting its all rhetorical and dogmatic. Youre defending a system which has failed and failed miserably for the vast majority. So many people are not under acheiving because they lack ambition they lack motivation and the means to surmount societies barriers put in place by government specifially to curb their ambition. There has to be folk at the bottom of the heap to do the work those "ambitious" folk wont do. We cant afterall be Prime Minister can we?
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:29:11
240

That should say at the end "We cant all be Prime Minsters can we?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 16:40:41
#A True Scot

I do not know how you can seriously say it is dogmatic to suggest that parents play a big role in their childrens educational achievements.

But rather that just say it is garbage actually think about it.

We have about half of kids doing degrees nowadays. How many graduates serious do not do very well for themselves?

If i look around see how people I hung about at school with, or people i did my degree with or other people i hang about with over the yrs all of them have done pretty well.

Those i know that went into trades like joiners and electricians have also done well and while i know no plumbers the rates of pay are very good over the past decade or so.

So how is it garbage? Why do i know now a lot of indian guys that can come over here and earn very good money?

In seriousness i think you are limited by your own circumstances and the people you have probably hung about with.

I will give you an example from my own exerience in the mid 90s. Got a poor pay rise so decided to leave. Set up 3 interviews pretty well immediately. Asked for significantly more money than i was on and was offered all 3 jobs. In 2 out the 3 was offered more than I asked for. (i had roughly 9 months experience of the job area i was applying for).

On another ocassion i was made redundant and got a job the next day with almost a 1/3 increase on the daily rate of pay.

It was all london off course. But shows that with minimal experience over the past 15yrs you could do pretty well if you had a degree and skilled yourself for the workplace.

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Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 16:54:31
Could the three of you not meet up and stop clogging the board? Sum up. Is it nature, nurture or a combination?
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Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 16:55:11
243

Howdydoody sm753.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:55:53
242

Its dogmatic to suggest that only people who lack ambition under acheive and all under acheivers lack ambition. Its also dogmatic to suggest that good parenting is the answer to good grades at school because it encourages ambition and the will to do well etc etc blah blah blah.
You wont acknowledge that there is a serious flaw at society level caused mainly by government policy and dogma which lies at the root of many underacheiving and lacking motivation and not just with education.
You give single examples which are frankly worthless to the overall argument and cant be verified anyway. I have a neighbour who blah blah I have a friend who blah blah blah.
Alan youre personal experiance youre highlighting is exactly what I argued about above. Most people who find work are already in work and experianced and its basically companies changing staff between them and leaving very little for new starts with only qualifications. The biggest growing employment market just now is temp work paid at minimum wage with false promises of being taken on full time if you do a good job but at least it gets them out of the unemployment statistics and allows the government to lie about the level of employment in the country.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 16:56:19
243

No of course not Vincent.
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10/12/2008 17:04:16
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Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 17:05:38
248

No need to shout Vince!
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:07:03
248

49 years old eh? what is this your fourth childhood?
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10/12/2008 17:08:47
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:11:22
248

Was that 49 or 4.9?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:11:59
#Vincent-W

"quality of many 'local' people was abysmally poor."

I think there is alot of truth in that. Put a different way there is a skills gap along with motivational issues with some of the locals.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:12:13
253

I havent read it I was commenting on the spin put on the report not the report itself.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:13:31
251

Recruiting rocket scientists and brain surgeons were you?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:16:30
#A True Scot

It would helped if you did not try to avoid any questions posed.

How may graduates (which are about 50% of school leavers now) do not get good jobs and are not in a good job within 3yrs of graduating?

Do you not agree plumbers, electricians and joiners get decent money? Why is it so hard to get tradesman that will turn up?

I was using personal experience as i believe you are. But my personal experience is most people who are skilled have done pretty well for themselves.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:17:38
258

Unlike you you mean? would you like me to list all of the questions not answered I have posted to you today?
250

Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:19:48
#257 A True Scot

The advantage of temp positions is it can give people experience. As you have pointed out yourself someone with educational qualifications can still struggle at first as they have no experience.

From a recruiters point of view you want to see if they turn up on time and put in a decent shift. If it is a job they lack experience in then are they willing and able to learn.
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:22:01
#A True Scot

What questions would you like me to answer that I have not answered regarding educational achievement at school?

That does not mean areas where we disagree.
252

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:23:33
258

"How may graduates (which are about 50% of school leavers now) do not get good jobs and are not in a good job within 3yrs of graduating?"

Foreign or domestic? and are we counting the graduats employed within the industries relevant to their qualifications or just employment in general including for example burger king burger flipping?

"Do you not agree plumbers, electricians and joiners get decent money? Why is it so hard to get tradesman that will turn up?"

The ones who are self employed can do very well as they can charge what they like for an emergency service no longer catered for by the public services.

"I was using personal experience as i believe you are. But my personal experience is most people who are skilled have done pretty well for themselves"

Skilled shipbuilders? Coalminers? Steel workers? Factory workers? car manufacturers? Fishermen? Merchant Sailors?
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:23:54
#259 A True Scot

So can you answer the questions I posed then in #258.
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A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:25:17
261

Does not mean areas where we disagree????

You dont want to answer the questions you disagree with? I didnt realise you had a sense of humour I must admit that really made me laugh out loud for the first time today.
255

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:26:23
263

Bit quick off the mark there now how about returning the the gesture and answer my questions above?
256

Eric D,

Renfrewshire 10/12/2008 17:26:28
We can blame the social engineers. Just in-case anyone doubts the validity of the OECD tests, below is an example of a Chinese vs English university entrance exam question ;( we can safely assume the Scottish one is just as simple ).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6589301.stm#chinese

"Do not imagine that mathematics is hard and crabbed, and repulsive to common sense. It is merely the etherealisation of common sense." - Lord Kelvin


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Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:32:44
#A True Scot

I am talking about domestic graduates. How many do not get decent jobs within a few yrs of graduating. (I do not call flipping burgers a good graduate job.)

I cannot think of any graduate I know that has not done well and did not earn decent money. Off course you may not be able to work in any industry of your choosing and certain skilled industries are harder to get employment than others.

How much money a gradate can earn depends on their career choice. If you choose areas that are lower paid and with more competition then you will find it harder than if you choose areas with skills shortages and there is greater job demand.

""Do you not agree plumbers, electricians and joiners get decent money? Why is it so hard to get tradesman that will turn up?"

The ones who are self employed can do very well as they can charge what they like for an emergency service no longer catered for by the public services."

You get a plumber or an electrician if you can get them to turn up to the house they will charge a decent amount of money.

I am talking about skills where there is a current demand for jobs. But a youngester coming out is not going to try to get skilled up in ship building as there are no jobs in that area. Obviously there was a very difficult time in the 80s with the decline of these industries and left skilled workers with skills that were not useful the the newer workplace that emerged in the 90s.




258

Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:35:35
#A True Scot

What question do you want me to answer?

I do not know whether you deliberately try to misunderstand posts. My comment regarding not what we disagreed in was to say not questions i have already answered and you just do not like the answer.

Your replies when you do not like the answer is either to insult or to say you know that is not true as if your opinion must be correct and others cannot have an alternative opinion.
259

Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:38:07
#A True Scot

Why do you think that so many poles and indian guys can come across and get good and well paid jobs but the a section of the locals are unable or unwilling to take up these opportunities.

260

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:41:35
267

Well what do you count as a decent job? why dont we count the graduates who end up working within their planned subject of study? I.e Marketing students who fall straight into marketting jobs or aeronautical engineers who fall straight into the aeronautical industry etc?

"cannot think of any graduate I know that has not done well and did not earn decent money. Off course you may not be able to work in any industry of your choosing and certain skilled industries are harder to get employment than others."

And this is not determined nor influenced in any way by Government policy and rhetoric then?

"I am talking about skills where there is a current demand for jobs. But a youngester coming out is not going to try to get skilled up in ship building as there are no jobs in that area. Obviously there was a very difficult time in the 80s with the decline of these industries and left skilled workers with skills that were not useful the the newer workplace that emerged in the 90s."

No what you said was

"But my personal experience is most people who are skilled have done pretty well for themselves"

Not the same thing at all is it?

261

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:43:56
268

225 will do for a start.
262

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:44:54
268

Your answers to some of my questions is to pretend you didnt understand it which of course is garbage they are plain and simple questions.
263

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:47:08
269

Because they are willing to work for peanuts. twenty pound a day goes a lot further in Poland and India than it does in the UK and when they have made their fortunes because they can make relevant fortunes here they go home and enjoy the wealth they have made at our expense.
Its all to do with the cost and standards of living.
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Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:47:48
#270 A True Scot

I have never said that someone that does say a degree in a specific area then they will necessarily be able to get a job in that area.

What I have said is if you say have a degree the vast majority will get a decent job within a few years.

If you want to work in a specific area where there are fewer opportnities then it will be more difficult to get a job in that area.

I get the feeling you are trying to reposition your argument and are not answer the questions directly becuase you know the answers will not fit your argument.



265

Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:52:52
#271 A True Scot

"Orphans take the parents out of the equation altogether and according to SM753/Vincent they underachieve so not only does that take good parenting out of the equation but also bad and puts society in the spotlight for the responsiblity for the under achievement does it no?"

The question is not particularly understandable as it is not correct english for a start.

But I agree orphans will most likely underperform those from more stable backgrounds. It is far better to have good parents for a child to achieve.

As such i have answered that question ofter above as you know fully my views relating to parents and the success of the child in general terms.

My experience of kids in care they can be pretty damaged and it is really quite sad the prediciment they are put in. Seen it pretty close up yrs ago and it was an eye opener.

266

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:53:07
274

" have never said that someone that does say a degree in a specific area then they will necessarily be able to get a job in that area."

No you asked about percentages of graduates getting good jobs on leaving uni or college I am only looking for specifics in order to get to an accurate picture of the point your trying to make so now your avoiding your own questions.

"What I have said is if you say have a degree the vast majority will get a decent job within a few years."

But you wont specify what a decent job is. To somebody unemployed and not qualifying for doll or benefits flipping burgers can be a decent job. So specify or are you afraid of your own point?

what is the point of going to uni to study a specific skill if you cant get employment within the industry your skill is relevant for?

I get the feeling you are trying to reposition your argument and are not answer the questions directly becuase you know the answers will not fit your argument.

Which of course is exactly what youre trying to do as AM2 often did.

267

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 17:53:53
275

yes of course the answer as always is I dont understand the question. why dont you just cut and paste that response?
268

Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:55:09
#273 A True Scot

I said decent money. Please read what i say rather than answering a question you would rather i have asked.

Take the Indian guys i know that have come to the uk over the past decade most will earn atleast 40G a yr. I call that reasonable. Some will be on between 70-100G depending on the specific choices they have made.

269

Alan B,

10/12/2008 17:57:22
#277 A True Scot

I never said I did not understand the question. I said your statement was not in proper english. Being blunt if you cannot even write grammatically correct english what do you expect. I am not talking about typos which we all will have multiple off when posting like this.


But I have now answered your question.
270

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:01:18
278

This average Indian worker earning 40g a year just exactly what will he be doing?
and the 70G to 100g a year? Doctors? consultant surgeons? are these the average Indian workers who come over here temporarily to make fast money and go home?
271

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:02:05
279

So its not going to be answered then?
272

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:03:42
#276 A True Scot

A decent job for a graduate is a graduate type of salary for a job. Obviously that will go up as the person gets more experience.

Someone of graduate level has to choose what is important money or the type of job and enjoyment. Alot of factors come into it.

If you choose teaching you are never going to earn as good money as you could in other areas. But that is a choice to be made.

When choosing what to study and what areas you go into you have to be aware of the demand for that skill type and how much competition there will be.

But you are obviously moving your line of discussion. If your line is everyone cannot choose to work in job sectors they want as there is more demand in some areas that others then you are correct. But that does not mean that graduates will not in general earn decent money.
273

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:04:09
#281 A True Scot

I have answered your question. Read.
274

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:07:06
Alan/AM2 you have managed to bullsh.t your way through the blog all day in exactly the same manner and style as AM2 I have no doubt at all that you are the same troll and now everybody else reading this will know it too.
Your pretence at being a NAT is over you have now fully and comprehensively exposed your account and name as just another troll account.
So which is it do you work for the Scotsman or a political party? I have to go with the Scotsman it would be too bizarre for a party political troll to pose as somebody from another party.
275

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:11:32
#280 A True Scot

No I am not talking about doctors. Talking about the Indian guys I have worked with (IT) in scotland. In general the guys/friends I know have been here about 5-10 yrs now.

Lets 3 guys i worked with about 7 yrs ago were on about 36-38G then. And will obviously progressed. One of the 2 was about 100G the last time i spoke to him. I know another 2 guys who will be between 70-100G.

Again it is just guys i have worked with and been friends with.


276

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:15:13
#A True Scot

I noticed you still avoid the questions. How many graduates of the past 20rys do you know say 5yrs later are not doing well earning what you would call reasonable money?

277

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:31:44
285

So they are not typical then? what is it they do to earn such high salaries you havent said. Did they move here permanantly with their families?
Did they take jobs that couldnt be done by Local talent? would that be because the highly skilled talent moved abroad for a better salary?
What a troll you are going to be really difficult for you now to convince anybody of your nationalist credentials after this.
278

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:33:41
286

You havent specified the question enough to allow an answer relavant to the point under question.
In fact you have studiously avoided doing so because you dont want your own question answered with any degree of accuracy.
279

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 10/12/2008 18:37:24
Andre Ampère and J C Maxwell didn't attend primary school so their childhood abilities weren't officially tested. Is this important?

How much do we value our teachers and schools? Be honest, did you learn very much yourself at primary? We could bring in knowledgable people with ENTHUSIASM (outside of the teacher training system) to start youngsters in maths and science. If that's what we want to do in Scotland. We could pioneer engineering projects in secondary schools. It needs local initiative and backing (eg money) rather than vague directives meandering from Whitehall and the Government of the day.

Asian countries have pupils that'll sit in class and learn things, actually by old-fashioned traditional methods. Where do we find MOTIVATION?
280

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:39:33
286

Do you want the percentage of graduates able to find any kind of work after graduation or do you want a percentage of graduates who found relevant work to their courses?

Do you want a percentage of graduates who earned above a specific sum after graduation irrespective of their job?
or do you want a percentage of graduates who earned above a specific sum after graduation relative to their employment within their chosen field?
281

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:41:38
Alan or whoever

I would appreciate an answer to 287 first I am genuinly curious to know what these friends of yours from India work at and where able to find jobs so easily when the criteria is supposed to be only skilled work that cant be filled locally.
282

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:43:01
I will let the relevant posters on here judge the identities on here not the dross.
283

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:43:55
291

Yes as they do in professional wrestling matches no doubt.
284

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:44:32
#A True Scot

I am just talking about guys I have worked with.

"Did they take jobs that couldnt be done by Local talent? "

My point is the skills gap with local talent. It is silly the uk does not address this skill gap. These jobs are not exactly difficult. There has been alot of opportunities over the last 15yrs.

It is not difficult to go on to a job web site for these types of jobs and view the income available.





285

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:48:02
#A True Scot

the market is dead at the moment but go on to job web sites like

http://www.jobserve.com/

For role put in:

- project manager
- java

and see the rates you can get try both permanent and contract.

As i say the market is dead and there are few roles compared to normal market times.

Try also http://www.theitjobboard.co.uk

That will give you an idea.
286

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:51:12
295

Alan national immigration policy is very clear on this point you cannot bring in a skilled worker if the position can be filled locally so what do these specialists do that cant be filled locally?
287

,

10/12/2008 18:53:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
288

Alan B,

10/12/2008 18:54:46
#A True Scot

Go to the jobs site links i am talking about and you will see roughtly what you can get. Yes rates have been slashed recently with economic mess.

UK policy is there are skill shortages so if you have a skill you can come here. After 4yrs i think you can get permanent residency. After 5 you can apply for uk citizenship.

It was very easy to get into the UK if you are skilled. Not sure about what it is like at the moment but do not think it will have changed that much.
289

,

10/12/2008 18:56:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
290

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 18:57:05
299

Yes Alan if you have a skill you can come here but you cant take any jobs which can be filled locally first so again what is it these Indian friends of yours do that cant be filled locally? Is it a job which requires somebody who speaks fluently in an Indian dialect perhaps?
291

Alan B,

10/12/2008 19:00:35
#A True Scot

No all jobs are just normal english speaking jobs. Jobs that anyone with the IT skills can do.

Did you look at the sites i posted and did you like some of the rates you can get between £400-500 a day? OK that is the top end.
292

,

10/12/2008 19:04:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
293

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 19:05:14
302

So its all bullsh.t then you are such a fraud.
Well if nothing else at least you have been well and trully exposed. Enjoy the rest of your trolling fake.
294

Alan B,

10/12/2008 19:07:42
#A True Scot

Did you even look at the job web sites i posted. You call me a fraud but if you can read then you can see the rates available. And as i have said you can imagine with the current economic problems rates have been cut.

Do you know anyone who works in that industry. Ask them the going rates of pay and what is available.

I am hardly making it up if i post general it job web sites to prove my point.

295

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 19:11:49
302

Thats limited company rates and again if the jobs are specifically within the UK then the immigration rules apply you first have to qualify to be able to work in the UK and that means you cant do the job if there is somebody in the UK who can do it also.
Like I said youre full of sh.t you made all of this garbage up. Times up fraud. Time to change to a new account this ones busted.
296

,

10/12/2008 19:12:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
297

Alan B,

10/12/2008 19:15:53
#306 A True Scot

You are unbelievable. Even when it is written down in black and white you still will not believe it. ie the job web sites.

I have shown you job web sites that demonstrate both the rates of pay for permanent and contractors that are available.

Even you cannot have noticed the boom in that job market over the last 15yrs.


298

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 19:22:04
308

Everyone of them are skilled jobs who will only recruit experianced and qualified professionals through recruitment agencies in fact the adverts are from recruitment agencies and not from companies at all.
They wont touch graduates with no experiance in a million years and certainly wont pay them 500 a day.
And none of this answered the question as to your non existing Indian professional freinds who managed to bypass the immigration system and find work nobody locally could do.
You are AM2 no doubts about it. Posting both sides of the fence and arguing for hours with yourself you are completely bizarre and not a little disturbing.
A word of advice get help soon very soon.
299

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 19:23:49
Alan is not AM2. This is obvious.

What was the question again?
Is this the euro thread? (1.13494)
Trams?
Anybody?
Help!

sm753 - help?
300

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 19:24:35
307

Why should it? consecutive government have been dismanteling the NHS for years. We export our Doctors and skilled medical staff all over the world because it pays better and they get better benefits and facilities to work with.
301

Alan B,

10/12/2008 19:27:21
#A True Scot

Where did I say graduates could go and contract without working up and first and gaining experience? Where did i say that the job sites i posted were for people just graduating?

I said that these show the rates of pay available within that job market.

As i said the hardest part as a graduate is getting the first job and wrung on the ladder. Boom times within the industry made it easier.

I have never said anyone bypassed immigration rules or laws. Everyone i know that works here does so legally. The government has welcomed alot of immigration for skilled IT workers. That you seem oblivious to this suggests you move in small circles if you actually get out the house.

302

,

10/12/2008 19:29:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
303

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 19:30:31
"Figures derived from the latest 2007/08 issue of Prospects Directory revealed that the average starting salary offered to 2008 graduates is £24,048 and the median salary is £23,500."

304

Faux Cul,

10/12/2008 19:30:44
This has been a bun fight all day and the thread has been completely lost.

Thanks

I'm off to open a bottle of red biddy.

night all

Night Meths
305

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 19:32:49
Cheers Faux.
306

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 19:33:41
312

Where have you said anything that is relevant to anything your just filling the blog with lies and waffle as usual but now your doing it under your Alan account as opposed to any of your others.
An Alan account you pretend is a NAT WTF is that all about? Is this rag so desperate for posters it has to force its staff onto the blogs to keep them going?
307

A True Scot.,

10/12/2008 19:34:43
314

They should be able to pay off their loan within 20 years then.
308

,

10/12/2008 19:34:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
309

Alan B,

10/12/2008 19:36:07
#Hugh

"What was the question again?"

Who knows we have gone off at a massive tangient.

310

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 19:41:28
tinyurl.com/5u4mcy

Shows the earnings of graduates - sub degree and A level or equivalent.

Salaries of graduates start the same or lower for the first couple of years. Earnings start to climb and at the age of 33-34, stay ahead.

2004-2005 figures for weekly earnings show (at age 33-34):-

Graduate:----------------654
Sub degree:--------------503
A level (or equivalent):-466

All ages (21-34)
507
403
372

Doesn't mention job satisfaction though

:-(
311

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 19:42:42
Fake prof

"315. Fake"

Who cares?
312

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 19:43:11
322

No fake ....
313

Alan B,

10/12/2008 19:43:29
#Hugh

"Doesn't mention job satisfaction though"

I agree.
314

,

10/12/2008 20:13:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
315

,

10/12/2008 20:27:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

Faux Cul,

10/12/2008 21:29:14
#319
Professor-Q­uincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,
10/12/2008 19:34:46


Y

or were U trying to be funny?
317

Faux Cul,

Gordon drops one 10/12/2008 22:16:11
http://tinyurl.com/5raveo
318

Deborah,

Missoula 10/12/2008 22:30:38
I am a High School Science and Maths teacher, and I have said it once, and I will say it a thousand times: You need smaller class sizes to adequately give each student the proper attention and time that is required. When one lone adult is trying to maintain discipline and order over 47 unruley pupils, and then you throw scapels and bunson burners in the mix, it just can not be done without a lack in safety or content. I have found over the 10 + years I have been teaching the best class size for Maths or Science is 13 to 17 students per teacher, anything more than that and there are serious safety and learning issues.

 

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