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As it happened: John McCain v Barack Obama, US presidential debate



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Published Date: 16 October 2008
Our New York correspondent Chris Stephen was blogging live from the third and final presidential debate this morning.
With Barack Obama leading in the polls, John McCain needed to find a game-winner.

Both candidates, however, found themselves caught in detailed policy talk on tax and spending for much of the 90-minute televised debate.

This seemed to suit Mr Obama, who looked calm and collected, while Mr McCain appeared angry at times.

Click here to read Chris Stephen's real-time report


The full article contains 93 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 October 2008 4:04 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: US elections
 
1

Alan B,

15/10/2008 19:08:24
Thought McCain was far better than Obama in the last debate. However neither are actually very good.

Obama sounded scary wanting to invade Pakistan and Iran without UN approval.

Do not know why McCain chose that nutter Palin. She off her head and simply not the quality you would expect to be running on a presidential ticket.

Obama's running mate for vice president. Seems far better than all of them.

I also have a problem with Obama over slating NAFTA while secretly telling the Canadians that it was just for public consumption and he would keep NAFTA and the trade arrangement between the countries. McCain atleast was honest and backed NAFTA despite not being a populist position. The last thing the economy needs is protectionism.

Having said that it will be best for the world if Obama wins as a republican president will not really be accepted and will not be able to bring countries together to smooth over the past problems with Iraq etc.

Pity the the US will not stand up and deal with israel as it is a cancer at the centre of so many of the issues in the middle east. The US position of backing Israel right or wrong just simply alienates the rest of the world who want a just settlement between the waring parties.
2

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/10/2008 20:11:38
Alan B in #1:

Obama likes to boast that he will send troops into Pakistan to pursue alleged terrorists. Of course, there have been many incursions by US forces into Pakistan the last 2 months. And Pakistani troops have shot at US troops. Both Obama & McCain approve of this. Both support the idea that the US continue to finance the war in Somalia as well to prevent the Somalis from having their own government. Neither the Iraqis, Afghans, Somalis or Pakistanis attacked us Americans. But the US has arranged for war against all of them.

Regarding Obama’s running mate Biden – this man sponsored the bankruptcy legislation of 3-4 years ago that the credit card bankers wanted. He also is in the pocket of some oil companies and has been doing their bidding.

Obama did brag that he’d back off of some NAFTA terms and then he sent word to the Canadians that he wasn’t serious. Obama does that, he says different things to different people at different times.

But our country prospered mightily during the protectionist era of 1865-early 1900’s. The trade patterns we have now are harming us badly because the US dollar is over-valued, it results in a trade deficit which causes massive debt. This massive debt is the source of our current financial crisis that requires literally trillions of dollars to be taken from the people and given to rich corporations. You seem very intelligent Alan, but I ask you to try to learn about this subject as I’m telling you facts.

Here’s a link you might like.

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=838&Itemid=1
3

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/10/2008 20:39:54
McCain is pulling out of Wisconsin and giving up. He previously gave up & pulled out of Michigan. Wisconsin has a lot of small town or rural people who are pro-Republican. Kerry won Wisconsin in 2004. Shockingly, McCain is down by 15 points in Florida. Increasingly, McCain must focus his resources on the few states he might win to avoid embarassment.

If McCain mentions Ayers in tonight's debate, it is over. Nobody wants to hear about Ayers.

And in California some Republicans were saying publicly that Obama should be water-boarded.

http://www.sacbee.com/812/story/1314854.html

I guess that when Republicans don't get their way they revert to fascist impulses.
4

Virginian,

USA 15/10/2008 22:06:11
Article Quote:

"Our New York correspondent Chris Stephen will be blogging live from the third presidential debate at 2am on Thursday morning."

Answer: At least Chris Stephen's reporting is now termed "blogging" to differentiate it from impartial, factual reporting.

At least we will be able to correct Stephen's biased statements as opposed to only being able to mute the sound of the crazed liberal television news commentators as they try to tell us what we heard and how we reacted.

It is difficult to understand why "The Scotsman" would support a left-wing candidate for US President.

What vested interest does your newspaper have in the US election?

Did the ownership of "The Scotsman" change hands in the last year or so? I had noticed a difference in the quality of reporting and the subject matter.
5

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/10/2008 22:30:17
The fellow Nomad57 (King Nimrod) has persistently told us that in the end the Republicans will come storming back and win with Obama only able to win a few states. That is the old conventional wisdom based on past experiences. During the later stages of presidential elections the Republicans would persuade people and people would tilt that way. But I think a new conventional wisdom is being made this year. I think the new wisdom is that Americans hate Republicans. And while they don't like the Democrats so much, they're wanting a change. After this election Democrats will have White House and very strong control of both houses of congress. Then it will be time for us Americans to watch very closely and try to make the Democrats behave. As the Democrats overwhelmingly supported Bush's bailout of rich people recently and offerred no alternatives I am not optimistic. But I am glad to see the republicans get beaten badly.

6

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/10/2008 22:41:03
In Montana the Republicans tried to stop people from being able to vote. and the leader behind that effort has now resigned.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/montana_gop_chief_out_after_fa.php

and here is a very interesting link that quotes a Republican consultant about what he's seeing.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Voting_for_Obama_anyway.html?showall

How could we not hate Republicans given GW Bush's buffoonery, his arrogance, his insults and his crimes? Ten years ago a lot of people hated Clinton, including myself. We get whip-sawed back and forth like this between those 2 and yet all along both parties serve the same masters. Meanwhile our mass media tells us that real alternatives like Ron Paul don't exist and try their best to keep us ignorant.
7

Virginian,

USA 15/10/2008 22:48:56
#2 Wally

Quote: "But our country prospered mightily during the protectionist era of 1865-early 1900's"

Answer: The Northern states prospered mightily from 1865 because the South had been defeated militarily and was subjected to the economic, political and social destitution of Reconstruction.

During Reconstruction the white landowners that had survived the War Between the States were systematically stripped of all civil rights and most of their property.

Carpetbaggers and illiterate blacks were placed in all positions of authority as no former Confederate could hold public office.

Each Southern state was bankrupt at the end of Reconstruction due to the corruption and mismanagement of the Federal agents in power.

The Northern states "prospered mightily" and produced the most corrupt and out of control era in US history up until that time.

The late 1800's were the years that spawned the Robber Barons, the factory sweatshops and other economic crimes.

Wally, the harm done by protectionism applied incorrectly during the Great Depression is germane to this discussion.

Our present economic crisis is akin to that of 1929 until WW II ended the depression. When protectionist trade measures were put in place they actually deepened and prolonged the Depression and spread it to Europe as well.

It would be wonderful to reclaim our industry from being sent overseas, but that only occurred because the unions made selfish demands for exorbitant wages and benefits.

Job losses were due to the unions. Unions have never provided jobs for anyone. Only business owners and entrepreneurs can do that. Yet, the unions are supporting Obama with hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This entire economic meltdown was started by the Democrats' refusal to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Check out YouTube about the 2004 Fannie Mae debacle where Barney Frank (Democrat-Massachusetts) castigates regulators attempting to reform this private entity.

The econ
8

Wally,

By THe Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/10/2008 23:24:50
Virginian, you caught me that the southern states did not prosper so well in the post 1865 period, you're right about that. But US industry did prosper. US industry became dominant globally by 1900 and this was due to the protectionist policies. Protectionism in the past has benefited many nations. There is no track record of a nation building up its economy to be very powerful without protectionism. As I explained - Japan enjoyed protectionist policies after WW2 and benefited greatly from it. China has had protectionist policies since 1980 and has benefited greatly.

It is irresponsible for national leaders to allow a pattern of trade that harms their nation. and like I said it was Karl Marx in 1849 who first advocated your position that nations should trade without any protectionism provided by the governments at all. Trade should only be done between nations when it is mutually beneficial.

It would've been very beneficial for the southern states to trade with Britain & France after the civil war because this would've expanded their markets for their crops and propped up prices. Instead, they were forced to only trade within the US which drove their prices down and limited their market. They were the losers in the civil war and they were treated as losers. But the industries of the north benefited tremendously from stopping the Europeans exporting to our country. and without this protectionism we would not have been the great world power we became. The real reason for the civil war was so that the northern industries could impose protectionism.

National leaders should look at trade deals and ask themselves if it hurts or harms their nation before they agree. Unfortunately, with the WTO trade regime this is very difficult or impossible for national leaders to do.
9

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 15/10/2008 23:33:41
Virginian, isn't it ironic that they called it Reconstruction and yet it was abusive to the south. I believe that when Reconstruction policies ended (late 1870's I believe) those policies were strongly disliked by many and seen to be a failure.

when the north won that war, that is when the evil clique that rules us today was empowered.
10

American,

15/10/2008 23:45:52
We're only up sh$tscreek if obama and the dems win the other elections. As long as the republicans have a say in the votes and bills, obamas future socialist agenda wont pass. If the liberal left-winged nuts dems sweep everything then we are so scr$wed!!
11

Postmark-55,

China, 15/10/2008 23:46:31
SOLDIERS GIVEN IMMUNITY PROMISE IN IRAQI DEATH INQUIRY!

Why is it dear Scotchman that we can't comment on this?
This just proves how illegal this war and invasion of Iraq truly is.
No one should be given immunity if they are involved in any way, and the courts can't be protecting some of the guilty while trying to prosecute others. This war is sickening and cases like this make it even more sickening.
And then there are people like 57Nomad and Lynne who say that the war in Iraq has already been won, yet the mindless slaughter of the innocent continues.
12

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 00:42:52

Would someone PLEASE give McCain his slippers BEFORE the debate this time so he doesn't have to go searching all over the stage for them, as in the last debate ?

Thanks for your attention. . .
13

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 16/10/2008 02:12:09
I thought Obama won the debate hands down.
14

Rosie's Opinion,

USA 16/10/2008 04:33:32
#13

No you didn't. Polls have McCain winning 3-1.
15

Postmark-55,

China, 16/10/2008 05:07:28
14 Rosie's Opinion,
Now why are you arguing with Let's have the truth's opinion? He merely stated that he thought Obama had won, but you accuse him of not thinking that.
Has it ever occurred to you that we don't have access to your polls? And we can still express our own opinions despite what your polls say. We don't fall for your western brainwashing, we saw enough of that and learned to think and speak for ourselves.
16

Virginian,

USA 16/10/2008 05:19:36
In my opinion, McCain is the winner of this debate.

Obama appeared to be rattled throughout the debate and was unable to answer direct questions about what specific cuts he would make to balance the budget.

Obama seems to have had his confidence shaken by recent news about the large scale scandal of voter fraud by the ACORN voter registration group that supports Obama.

McCain, on the other hand, appeared back to his confident self and at times seemed amused at Obama's obvious discomfiture.

Many of McCain's rebuttals were outstanding.
17

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 05:32:05
Sorry Rosie but having watched the debate and seen the results of the opinion polls after it, McCain got his bottom kicked. He is such a bitter little man who seems to hate so much. Johnny needs to retire to his wifes 13 houses. He is past it and Obama is walking it all the way to the Whitehouse, and about time too.

The world has had enough of Neo fascist Presidents, who CREATE WARS BASED ON LIES. Enough young people have not come home to their mothers, and the ultra rich like Cheney have made their billions from the death of young men of the World.

If Israel attacks Iran before Obama takes over,then Israel should face the wrath of the World. It is a cancer on the World. They could make peace with the Palestinians tommorow if they chose to.
18

Joe the Plumber,

Joe Sixpack is my gay lover 16/10/2008 05:38:34
Total dross, if a winner had to be chosen it was Obama.

McCain is the sad angry old man who's time has been and gone, should have called it quits after being humped by Bush in 2000. I would suggest trundling off to a Veterans home but the republicans have cut back on veterans benefits so maybe he would have a problem with that one.

Sarah Palin has a baby with Downs Syndrome so she's now a world wide expert on autism, pathetic!!!!
19

r1niceboy,

Nebraska 16/10/2008 06:00:00
Mccain got angrier and more impatient as the debate progressed. he didn't hit home any point with the ayers issue, and said that the mothers health was less important than the baby that probably won't live even if spared a partial birth adoption.

he got one good line in by saying that "I am not George Bush." overall though, he looked restless, and tetchy and will lose next month because Obama looks like he'll be able to handle the crises that will face him. McCain can't govern via tantrums.
20

r1niceboy,

nebraska 16/10/2008 06:01:30
that should have read partial birth abortion.
21

Pilrig,

Livingston 16/10/2008 06:10:18
10 you'll be glad to be rid of your socialist prez, GW Bush ?
22

Virginian,

USA 16/10/2008 06:11:30
After switching to Chris Stephen's live blog it is hard to believe that we were watching the same debate.

Thank you "Scotsman" that you had the integrity to put Chris off on a blog to himself. He appears to be in a world all his own.

McCain was by far the better debater and was able to rattle Obama on several occasions.

McCain wisely brought up the subject of Ayers and his association with Obama. Obama tried to wiggle out of answering truthfully about Ayers launching Obama's career, but McCain came back and gave facts to the contrary that Obama could not refute.

Chris was watching CNN...a station rabidly biased in favor of Obama. Any comments made by CNN could have been written prior to the debate because whatever happened they would say that Obama won.

There was a definite difference in the flow of the debate away from Obama and in favor of McCain.

Obama must sense that the American voters want honest answers from him about many issues that he doesn't want to answer for.

Americans are realizing that the economic meltdown started because of the Democrats and Fannie Mae.

Voter fraud by Obama's supporters is a huge scandal.

Obama is seen as a true socialist who wants to redistribute the wealth by the government taking the money from working people and businesses and giving it to non-working and poor people.

Obama has expressed his opposition to a strong military and proposes cutting military spending and the US missile defense program.

McCain summed up his platform very nicely while Obama stumbled rather badly on his summation.

This all goes to prove once again that the news media would do far better if they just let the American voters watch these debates and let them make up their own minds without all of these annoying polls and irritating chatter by talking heads.

It is like two people having an argument and a third party decides to butt in and tell them what it is they meant to say and which of the two is in the right.
23

Richardinho,

16/10/2008 07:24:34
#7 Always interesting to see a poster revealing his true colours.
Virginian clearly laments the fact that slavery was brought to an end and resents black people being in positions in power.
I'll be reading his future utterances in the light of this one.
24

billengland,

16/10/2008 07:31:13
WORLD FINANCIAL AND COMMERCIAL CRISIS - DEPRESSION LOOMS!

Scotsman, I couldn't find this story in your newspaper yesterday or today.

The forthcoming US presidential election is trivial in comparison.
25

Boy Wonder,

16/10/2008 08:31:06
I don't think EITHER will serve a full term. Obama will be assassinated by some nutjob redneck racist scum ... and McCain will have a heart-attack in the Oval Office as soon his Veep can arrange it!

Interesting times indeed!
26

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 16/10/2008 08:55:26
#14 Rosie
"Polls have McCain winning 3-1"
Not sure what polls you're looking at but Obama won the 3rd debate by a country mile.

The republicans are getting their butts kicked really hard

Game Set and Match to Barack Obama

It's all over bar the shouting...

McCain summed it up nicely at the end though when he said to Obama "Well done, well done, well done"

Another nail hammered into McCain's coffin
27

Shaken,

16/10/2008 09:00:15
All the yanks who comment on this paper should ask themselves the question - why in this free world do you need to find a UK paper to post comments about your mockery of a democratic system. When the UK have an election I feel the need to get The New Yorker online and inflict my ignorance (Virginia, Rosie et al) on the popoulace.

Personally I have no faith in the US. I watched Bush stutter and mumble through all the other debates (2000, 2008) and the US still voted him in. McCain by comparison is a wonderful orator although an 8 year old fresh from debating society could outhing Bush.

If Obabma doesn't get in we're fuct!
28

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 16/10/2008 09:20:22
McCain lost final debate with Obama, polls say

A CBS poll found that 53 per cent of uncommitted voters saw Senator Obama as a winner against 22 per cent who thought Senator McCain won. Twenty-four per cent saw the debate as a draw

CNN also released snap polls following the debate and it indicated 58 per cent of voters saw the Democrat the winner over 31 per cent for Senator McCain.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24506160-5013948,00.html

All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put McCain back together again.

An Obama victory is nigh....
29

Michael Stuart,

Stellenbosch 16/10/2008 09:31:48
Skimming through Chris Stephen's report I came upon an interesting item which stated that "unacknowledged racism" may reduce Obama's lead in the presidential campaign by about 4%.This remark makes a very interesting assumption that if a voter who originally intends to vote Democrat changes his or her mind and votes Republican, this is a result of racism and not for example as a result of misgivings about Obama's inexperience, or lack of a consistent economic policy. The corollary to this is that to avoid casting a "racist" vote for the Republicans the uncertain and anguished US voter must vote for Obama. And this probably will happen, at least in sufficient numbers of votes to ensure the Barack Obama becomes president. Political Correctness will carry him to the White House and after that the US voter can say "Been there, done that. Tick that box" and relax
30

Yane,

16/10/2008 10:13:26
#32 Och the race stuff is an ugly game. If you think about it, according to you, if he wins it's cos he's black & people are being "Politically Correct". Presumably, if he loses some will say it's because he's black.
Mibbee he'll win cos he's the better candidate.
Roll on November, this is such an interesting time.
31

,

16/10/2008 10:23:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 10:35:59
58 percent of those polled who watched the debate say Obama is the winner

Poll: Obama's favorable rating up to 66 percent, McCain's down to 49 percent
CNN 16 October 2008.
33

Red Tower,

Dunoon 16/10/2008 10:50:20
I am sad to say it but I think that Obama will lose. The Bradley effect will see to that. Red Neck America will see to that in the secrecy of the polling booths. In America rascism wins even at a subtle level. If you want proof of this why do they call Obama an Afro-American? He is after all as white as he is black.
34

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 10:56:26

McCain appeared to me as an absolute raving lunatic.

He could not contain his snarling attempts at a smile, which seemed to dominate his facial expressions all evening. Like an insane person who "gets the joke" - BUT NO ONE ELSE DOES- he sat there for 90 minutes like a complete looney awaiting the straight jacket.

While he made several good points, his disturbed presence was enough to convince me that the man is
dangerously close to being considered a complete nut case. The split-image coverage of ABC news showing both candidates was very revealing and exposed so much more about each person than simply their words.

McCain is a very angry, very damaged man who should never be allowed the presidency.

35

Red Tower,

Dunoon 16/10/2008 11:08:01
#34

"Obama Bin Laden" !!!!! Boy-oh-boy, have you chosen a misnomer for your moniker.
36

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 16/10/2008 11:21:55
#14 Rosie's opinion

"No you didn't. Polls have McCain winning 3-1"

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24506160-5013948,00.html

I think a 53% to Obama and 22% to McCain is a fairly convincing victory.
37

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 16/10/2008 11:24:37
Rob Bennett

Sorry, I didn't see your post above showing Obama won 53% to 22%. Maybe it doesn't hurt to rub it in.
38

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 16/10/2008 11:42:29
What will that Palin woman do when the election is over?

It's fairly evident Alaska isn't missing her and it seems the majority of the US public hasn't a great deal of time for her.

Maybe she could host one of those late night shows advertising new developments in cutlery.
39

Malc.F,

france 16/10/2008 11:48:26
It amazes me that ANYONE could consider voting for a man who chose someone as obviously ill equiped as Sarah Palin for such an important job. She makes GWB look like a towering intellectual and has definitely and cynically been picked to win the lowest common denominator votes of the red-neck,bible thumping,liberal hating brain dead of USA.
But don't be too worried just watch Saturday Night Live to see what REAL Americans think of the Republicans.
The breathtakingly rascist and sub-human comments of the likes of Virginian do not represent the views of most Americans and they will see to it that Obama is the next President of the USA.
40

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 16/10/2008 12:13:48
#41 Let's have the truth
"Sorry, I didn't see your post above showing Obama won 53% to 22%. Maybe it doesn't hurt to rub it in"

Yeah! Let's all keep rubbing!

Palin is angling for a shot at the republican leadership in 2012, President Sarah 'Valley Trash' Palin. She registered a business name called 'Rouge Cou' which means 'redneck' in French.
41

Vivian,

USA 16/10/2008 13:13:56
I only watched the debate for less than 30 minutes due to utter frustration with the bickering and smirking between the two candidates. Personally, I wanted to hear their answers/plans to each question asked, I wasn't interested in the Obama said this, McCain did that foolishness The average American is never sure what each candidate's truth is due to all the mudslinging.

This country is going to hell in a handbasket fast!
42

SouthernGent,

16/10/2008 13:38:25
It seems many here are in Obama's corner based on the perception of Republicans and their foreign policy "blunders". Right or wrong, I see your point.

But, although the foreign policy affects you directly, the US economy also affects you directly being in the "new" global economy. The US and many other countries (if not all) are currently in or heading toward a recession. The democratic platform is "tax and spend". Ask your local economist if raising taxes has ever helped end a recession (it hasn't).

With Obama, you will get your eloquent head of state for foreign policy, but then you will be blindsided by the burden of the economy for quite some time.

Remember, the US Congress actually makes the laws and controls the money in the US, not the President. Pelosi and Reed will be running this country with Obama's blessing, and those 2 currently have a lower approval rating than the devil himself (Bush). Wonder why.
43

EMJC,

Michigan, USA 16/10/2008 14:09:26
I have been as independent as it gets throughout this never-freaking-ending campaign for the White House which began (what feels like) 20 years ago. Went so far that during the last election, I openly voted for Ralph Nader. Why? Because I wanted someone other than Bush or Kerry in the oval office.

Fact: the President can't do anything which is not approved by Congress. It's called checks and balances. So, yes, the person who stated that it's about the most convincing public speaker--that is correct. Although they stated that it's about the most convincing liar.

Opinion: Palin was chosen by McCain for no other purpose than trying to garner women voters. For some reason, no one thought ahead to realize that a lot of women read and write books which Mrs. Palin would prefer to have banned. Many women have children with difficulties of either physical or mental nature, and few would identify with her alleged 'maverick' nature. We don't want to live in the days of 'barefoot and pregnant', and we don't want someone shoving those values at us.

Opinion: McCain was down-right rude and unprofessional in the debate last night. He did everything we try to teach our children NOT to do. He was disrespectful, accusatory, and over-zealous.

Opinion: Obama presented himself as the 'bigger man'. He addressed the questions which were asked, and he gave 'mostly' realistic answers.

Fact: I did not watch the entire debate. I got insanely sick and tired of McCain constantly saying "Joe the Plumber".

Opinion: If Joe the Plumber wants to buy a business with a net taxable profit of over $250,000, then, hey, if that's your net profit, what are you worried about? If that's your gross revenue, as stated by the accountant earlier in the posts, what are you worried about? Once you apply your deductions, you're below that taxable range, and you still have little to be concerned with.

Fact: Taxing health care benefits? ... Maybe I should change that to say opinion again...
44

EMJC,

Michigan, USA 16/10/2008 14:11:11
...I'm wordy...my post was cut off. Here is the rest.

*** *** ***

Fact: Taxing health care benefits? ... Maybe I should change that to say opinion again... Hubby and I combined barely clear the $50k mark. I'm in the process of being tested for autoimmune diseases. So, this tax issue could see me being dropped by not just my own insurance, but my husband's, too, which I need to pay for these insanely priced, yet necessary tests, in order to get the right treatment to avoid further damage to my heart.

If 95% of Americans are in that group who make less than $250k/year, then why is McCain more concerned with protecting 5% of the population, instead of that 95%?

The whole campaign, as is usual for American politics, has been handled poorly by both major parties. And neither candidate stayed on topic when asked if they would be willing to state in person all those accusations made through their commercials. Still, with that point being made on national television so strongly (thank you Bob for doing that!!!), I can only hope to see the candidates do what they should have been doing all along--address the issues like grown men who possess at least some modicum of intelligence and compassion, instead of this mudslinging.

Enough rambling out of me. I have work to do.
45

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 14:33:04
Have a look at the photo... Doesn't McCain look very much like William Haig?
46

georgia,

outside chicago, home of gangsters and gun molls a 16/10/2008 14:45:04
#47 If Sarah "Palin' by Comparison to Joe Biden" really did set up a business called "Rouge Cou" (Redneck), she shows she doesn't even know enough to check out the French language.

Like Baton Rouge ("Red Stick") (capital of Louisiana), the color goes after the object. If Mrs. Palin (who has now been deemed an expert on birth defects by John McCain - which, to be fair, she probably is) doesn't know this simple fact, she is indeed someone ignorant disguising as someone witty. Fatal combination....

Anyone who saw the performance last night saw McCain getting all shirty with Obama about "wanting to spread the wealth." I find it awfully white of McCain to be feeling that much indignation on his rich friends' behalf...as his wife is worth $100 million....well, do we need to go there??

Most really rich people in the US (millionaires and on up) do a really fine job of finding accountants who know all the loopholes in our very circuitous tax system, so much so that very few of them even end up paying the highest rate of taxation, which is 35 percent. Bush supposedly made only a little over a million last year, and we all know that's not true, but that was just his TAXABLE income, and so it is a lot less than what he actually hauled in and, thus, a lot less he was held accountable for. I have the feeling that although Bush can say things like "It looks like a budget - it has a lot of numbers in it..." when it comes to the government's expenditures, he is one line-by-line fanatic when it comes to his own tax liability.

47

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 15:25:45

"Joe the Plumber" is a fantasy - he laughed at the prospect of EVER making $250,000 per year, in his interview this morning.

I'm puzzled why few news sources failed to point out that the COST of the business was the $250,000. NOT that it was Joe's annual income. Joe should be so lucky ! He simply won't pay a dime in extra taxes.

Which means. . . . Joe is now free to be used by the anti-Christian "keep-it-all-for-myself" right wing
folks as their poster-boy, while NEVER having to cough up any additional cash ! SUCH A DEAL !

Remember what Christ taught us:

YOU MADE IT - YOU KEEP IT !" F**k Everyone Else!

Lord save us from the "Joes" of this world and those who emulate him.
48

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 15:41:45

"Let's spread the wealth around a little. . . "

(Attributed to: J. Christ / Sermon on the Mount )
49

Laurette,

16/10/2008 15:48:48
#16 You mean when he was grimacing?

Re ACORN: In 2006 Several Governors and McCain praised them for the "Good Work" they did, McCain attended a rally for them.
Of course what they did was illegal, but when it comes to November 4, only those people who can present their ID will be given a ballot. So the ACORN idiot who wrote up a registration for "Elmer Fudd" did nothing to affect the outcome of the election. What he did is to defraud a non-profit organization by getting paid for turning in false registrations. And what he did was to give fodder to the hate mongers of the republican party who are looking for reasons to disenfranchise democratic voters--especially African American democratic voters, again.

50

Sandi,

San Diego 16/10/2008 15:50:19
I watched the debate and thank goodness it was the last one for a few years.

I thought McCain started out slowly, but was ultimately the better debater.

Obama, as usual, smirked and even laughed his desrespectful way through it. He is so arrogant and full of himself. What a pity he has done nothing in his entire life to merit his high opinion of himself. Last night, also as usual, he lied repeatedly - about his realtionship with Ayers, about not voting for the save the baby bill in Illinois. As is his longstanding habit, he just adopts other people's bills and accomplishments as his own. He misleads about his tax plan every time he mentions it. His health plan is not "universal" and there is a fine involved, but not for small businesses, for individuals. The sorry fact is that neither of them is going to be able to do much of anything given the sad state of the economy. McCain seems to be much more aware of this, whereas Obama is still trying to buy votes with his bag of goodies.
51

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 15:55:14
#53

"He is so arrogant and full of himself"

This guy is downright UPPETY!"
52

Bennie,

Greenville 16/10/2008 15:59:36

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,
16/10/2008 15:25:45
Clearly you have no idea how small business's/S Corporations file taxes. Poor old Joe will hit $250K as a one man operation in about 8 months.
I myself have a small business with another three friends. Analysis by a tax expert based on last years returns (2007) means that we will have to lay off a couple of guys if Obama gets his way. I haven't had a new car since 2003 and the trucks we have are a few years old. We have a comfortable life but are no millionaires. Sometimes we don't pay ourselves so our employees get paid. This OBAMA tax plan and the way he is going to handle the healthcare will kill us (we pay our guys to get their own H/C if they want it - some prefer just to take catastrophic cover and pocket the money.)
With the McCain plan we could have hired more guys.
Batten down the hatches guys - unionized small business and compulsory healthcare is just round the corner. I'll close up shop and retire - after all I am 65..... What happened to choices and people being repsonsible for their own families.
53

mike - across the pond,

EMJC 16/10/2008 16:05:59
here's the problem...

how many people do you think BO's 95% hire?

the answer is DARN FEW.. one, two, maybe up to 3 or 4... but then they run out of money... or they get up there into that range where BO starts jacking up their taxes.... AND... what do you think "Joe" does to PAY those taxes? he raises the rate he charges YOU to come snake your drain....

DO THE MATH...

"joe" buys his business for 250k... he has to turn close to that much each year just to keep gas in his truck... add a few employees... and he's right there paying BUSINESS taxes that BO is talking about raising... or "spreading the wealth" as BO so euphamistacally puts it...

how about THIS... we DROP the business tax rate from 38% to 20% and Joe now has the $'s to hire another employee... or maybe offer health care to the employees he has... giving his employees a few more coins in their pockets? or maybe even a pay increase for his employees...

BO acts like if these small businesses make more money that those extra $'s somehow just disappear.... WRONG... they get spent... on new equipment... more benefits... higher wages... even if "joe" squirrells it away in a 401k... THEY invest it....
54

Bennie,

16/10/2008 16:07:52
52
Laurette,
16/10/2008 15:48:48
You nailed the issue. For years I have had to double check ID's as most Mexicans have forged drivers licenses or fake SSN's. Now when we employ people we use the government E-check program so we can complete I-9's with confidence. (I-9 is the certificate that employers have to fill out that states this is not an illegal, undocumented worker.)

If you can register Joe Blow to vote then an ID for Joe Blow is available in any Mexican community for about fifty bucks. Not too many Republicans in the illegal Hispanic community. Match that to an Acorn quota system voter registration and you have voter fraud.
55

mike - across the pond,

and.... 16/10/2008 16:09:49
please remember what WJC ran on in 1992...

middle class tax cuts...

AND HE RAISED THEM across the board...

you REALLY think BO is any different?
56

Bennie,

16/10/2008 16:13:56
Well said Mike - Obama will try yo make the likes of us to "spread the wealth". I take the risks. I created the jobs - what am I going to do - fire myself? I just will charge more. If I don't get as much work I'll fire one of the guys. As I said I am no millionaire but I have worked for over 40 years and and no lazy son of bitch is going to "share my wealth - no matter how small it is".
I earned this for my family to give them a better start than I had.
57

Bennie,

16/10/2008 16:15:18
I suffered Carter - the worst President in History. Obama will surpass him.
58

georgia,

waukegan 16/10/2008 16:15:58
#55 Maybe a businessman will "hit 250K as a one man operation in about 8 months," but he will have enough loopholes so that his TAXABLE income will not be that great, even making that much. As a small businessman, he can write off practically everything but his tooth fillings to bring his TAXABLE income down to very little. Business lunches, equipment, stationery, office space - these and more are available to our small business (and big business) communities as tax write-offs - what's not to like????

Oh, Bennie from Greenville, I feel sorry that you haven't had a new car since 2003. Well, neither have I, and now the whole world knows I am a pauper!!! (LOL)

Bush and his ilk (McCain) believe SO MUCH in the free market (that's why we had to bail out the banks, dontcha know!) If you have to lay off a couple of guys, maybe it's because the huge conglomerates are making it harder for the little guy, not because Mr. Obama is making his proposals. We have been mired in doublespeak and outright lies for the last eight years, and we have had the Bush Administration publicly champion the lil' guy while privately screwing him for eight long years....NOT AGAIN AND NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!!
59

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 16:21:07
#53 Sandi - "I thought McCain started out slowly, but was ultimately the better debater."

In the minority again Sandi, never mind.

"HEMPSTEAD, New York (CNN) -- A majority of debate watchers think Sen. Barack Obama won the third and final presidential debate, according to a national poll conducted right afterward.


Sens. Barack Obama and John McCain debate face to face Wednesday night.

Fifty-eight percent of debate watchers questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll said Democratic candidate Obama did the best job in the debate, with 31 percent saying Republican Sen. John McCain performed best."
60

georgia,

outside chicago 16/10/2008 16:24:02
By the way, that would be "President BO" to you, #56 and all the rest of you out there who can't see the handwriting on the wall....

Just thought I'd let you know so you don't go out planning any victory celebrations for "McCain in the Membrane" and "Palin' by Comparison."
61

SouthernGent,

16/10/2008 16:24:24
#55,56
The problem is, most voting for Obama are only able to grasp short term. The understand short term gratification, but don't look at the big picture.

The want to tax the evil corporations, then wonder why they lost their job or why they are now paying more at the grocery store.

I would like any of them to explain to me why Congress has a lower approval rating than Bush, yet somehow believe letting that very same Congress have all the power will be good for this country.
62

SouthernGent,

16/10/2008 16:31:34
#61
"Bush and his ilk (McCain) believe SO MUCH in the free market (that's why we had to bail out the banks, dontcha know!) "

No, don't know that. Without the dems relaxing the rules on Fannie/Freddie, the banks wouldn't be saddled with the toxic debt that has caused this crisis, as that debt wouldn't exist.

"maybe it's because the huge conglomerates are making it harder for the little guy"

You mean like giving them jobs. We want conglomerates to make boat loads of money, not the other way around. Companies making money is a GOOD thing. Ask the employees at any defunct company how well they are doing. The world economy NEEDS companies to make money.
63

Bennie,

16/10/2008 16:37:31
georgia,
waukegan 16/10/2008 16:15:58
Don't be such and idiot. You obviously have not read his proposal. Tax regs have changed a lot over the years. Obama is going after the gross income - this before the much reduced ALLOWABLE business expenses can be considered and that's not much these days.
KEEP IT REAL AND STICK TO THE FACTS.
64

adsullata,

pdx 16/10/2008 16:37:34
I agree that John McCain was nasty and desperate. If he acts that way under the pressure of a debate can you imagine his decorum under the pressure of the white house? He looked rather rabid at times. He interrupted Obama on many occasion and mislead the voters on a number of issues. (factcheck.org)

Obama held himself within a professional standard and was very calm and thoughtful about his remarks. You could see that he was annoyed at times but for the most part he really held his composure. One would need that ability to keep ones composure and think at the same time in the white house. He mislead on a few issues also but not as many and not to the extent of McCain.

I don’t like that taxes are going to have to be raised but they are going to have to be raised. The government just threw us to the wolves at the cost of $750 billion. Where do people think that money is going to come from? Us.

I do like how Obama stated flat out that this will not be easy at first but investing now will ensure the future generations. I completely agree with this. I would rather put up and shut up now so that our children have some sort of stability, some sort of future to at all.

People of the US have not had to sacrifice since the great wars and due to that fact it has become an “all about me” society. Past presidents have been all talk about investing in our future. At least Obama has the foresight to look to the future and has a plan on what needs to be done now to insure the best possible future outcome.

You don’t put 5 bucks into your 401k and expect to be able to retire on that investment. A person puts as much money into a 401k as they can. A person who really wants to retire and be able to support his or herself will make sacrifices at a young age. They will put more money in the account so the money will be available in the future. A personal tax imposed on oneself really. Why shouldn’t we as citizens understand and support the governm
65

adsullata,

pdx 16/10/2008 16:38:27
cont...

Why shouldn’t we as citizens understand and support the government in that train of thought.

#29 Shaken
To answer your question, “why in this free world do you need to find a UK paper to post comments about your mockery of a democratic system.”

My personal answer to that is I find most persons on this site to have common sense. (Not all and some think they are the be all, end all.) But one can get an honest opinion and (for the most part) an engaged discussion. People in the states don’t think of anyone but themselves and their opinion.
66

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 16/10/2008 16:38:38
alan b and others
sarah is a kick ass american. alaska is less interested in being politically correct. it's gotten so bad guys here say poop instead of sh*t.
her heart is in the rite place and is long overdue in washington. she'll take care of the PEOPLE. not much of that going on today.
casey purvis
ps her ex brother in law(trooper x)hit his kid with a tazer(50,000 volts) besides protecting her sisters kid she figured he probably was not a good cop!!
67

,

16/10/2008 16:38:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
68

georgia,

outside chicago 16/10/2008 16:39:16
#64 (by the way, I predict that is the number of electoral votes by which Barack Obama will win...)

The "evil corporations" need to get taxed in an appropriate manner, certainly not at the paltry rate at which they are ultimately taxed.

I paid almost $4,500 in income tax last year, small potatoes to be sure, but then I found out that Bush's income tax was $80,000. I guess that would be dandy, except that due to loopholes only available to the ultra-rich, he was able to say he had earned $1.4 million. Now, I made in the 40 thousands, while a man who made $1.4 million after deductions paid $80,000. Let's say he made only $2 million, which is of course really the low end of possibility, considering all his holdings. So a woman making less than $50,000 gets charged 10% after her basic deductions (no house, so no house payment interest deductions, for instance)...and Bush gets to pay the tax of someone who brought home $800,00 (only he took home lots more, because he claims he only "earned" $1.4 million, but that's a fallacy). Underpaying tax by our upper class and sending it overseas to hide it from our taxation is one of things I find reprehensible about those who say they are for America and its dreams....

Bush's and McCain's and Palin's dream is to wake up in an America where they can just keep rolling their money into bigger and bigger annuities without penalty, without taxation, without any interference by us poor schnooks who carry the country's debt on our bent backs. Since they have stocks in most of the corporations who want the same, we need someone like Obama who will at least draw attention to what is being visited upon the middle and lower classes and who will give us recourse in our time of financial crisis!!!
69

mike - across the pond,

bernie 16/10/2008 16:46:25
take that and the Ohio problem where the state atty-general decided to try and prevent the 88 counties from pre-verifying voter registration rolls with state records, and you have NO controls over who comes into the polling place to vote...

match that up with Ohio's instant absentee ballot and all it takes is somebody accepting the "validation" form and fraudulent ballots will be counted...
70

georgia,

outside chicago 16/10/2008 16:49:20
Obama is going to carry the State of Virginia, which has not gone Democrat in over 40 years....

Get used to the title "PRESIDENT OBAMA" because that's just the facts. Even Bill Kristol has denounced McCain's campaign as a sham(e). Bill Kristol, whose face screws up in disgust at the very mention of the Democratic Party, calling McCain a loser is one of the many death knells we have heard lately here in the States about the viability of a McCain-Palin ticket. And at the point McCain said he doesn't care about the mother's health in the case of late-term abortion, I stood up and said "Hello, President Obama."
71

georgia,

outside chi-town 16/10/2008 16:53:07
#54 Yes, indeed, HOW DARE our future president smile and chortle? (Was #53 even watching the same debate?) McCain rolled his eyes and made so much noise taking notes I thought there were rats rustling about (that's when he wasn't interrupting Mr. Obama). I do believe Mr. Obama was smiling a bit indulgently at McCain because he was just so pathetic, and it was just plain courtesy to simply smile and let it pass.
72

SouthernGent,

16/10/2008 16:54:12
#71

"The "evil corporations" need to get taxed in an appropriate manner, certainly not at the paltry rate at which they are ultimately taxed."

Obviously, you don't know that corporations don't pay tax. "Corporate taxes" are an expense on the books. When corporations incure expenses, they have to offset them somewhere else. They do this by either lowering other expenses or generating more profit. That usually equates to cutting employees or raising prices of their product/service. The employees that tend to go are the ones at the bottom, not the ones at the top.

So, when you vote to "screw the corporations", you are in essence voting to screw yourself and those in the same boat as you. YOU pay those taxes either with your job loss or by paying higher prices.

The little guy suffers, not the "big" guy. His salary rarely changes. Again, if corporations make more money, less people suffer.
73

,

16/10/2008 16:54:38
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Reason:
74

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 16:55:47
#55

(Your statement - )

"Poor old Joe will hit $250K as a one man operation in about 8 months."

Lucky Joe indeed !

The fact that he might have to pay an additional 3% does not seem like too much of a penalty for an excessive personal income.

How many folks out there make $250,000.- $300,000.
NET INCOME per year ?

By the way, I've owned a business for 35 years and clearly understand the perils and sacrifices of small business. Frequently business owners get stuck in a mind-set that they are "self-made" individuals, no longer part of the rest of society. I suspect that is where your thoughts are coming from.

We should all be as successful as "poor Joe!"
75

dlady,

FL 16/10/2008 16:58:54
Hmmmm. By polls you mean cnn polls? They are pro nobama, of course he is leading if you go by way of cnn...everybody knows that.
76

SouthernGent,

16/10/2008 17:05:47
And if the democrats take control of the WH and Congress, here is a quote from Nancy Pelosi indicating that she plans to redistribute the wealth to 12 million illegals as well.

"We need to raise the standard of living of our poor, unemployed and minorities. For example, we have an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in our country who need our help along with millions of unemployed minorities. Windfall profits taxes could go a long ways to guarantee these people the standard of living they would like to have as 'Americans'."

Be careful what you wish for.
77

SouthernGent,

16/10/2008 17:07:03
78

CNN Communist or Clinton News Network
78

dlady,

FL 16/10/2008 17:14:51
LOL SouthernGent you hit it right on. I agree with you too on be careful what you wish for. It's already happening.
79

georgia,

outside that toddlin' town 16/10/2008 17:18:12
OK, it's time for my nap...the tedium of the Republican fat cat drumbeat is starting to give me a headache.

President Obama....and that's all she wrote....
80

georgia,

outside chicago 16/10/2008 17:20:21
....and no, McCain will not be asked into the cabinet. He needs to take care of his health. It looks like his skin problems have recurred, all kidding and joking and politics aside. Stage makeup can only do so much to hide it.
81

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

16/10/2008 17:48:13

I would suggest the following epitaph for several posters, to be carved into your tombstones :

'HE LOVED HIS COUNTRY, BUT HATED HIS FELLOW MAN."

What have you got, another 10, 15, maybe 20 years ?

That will go by in a flash. . . and then. . . who knows ?

You may have some serious answerin' to do !