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Labour sparks local tax row over soldiers

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Published Date: 20 July 2008
A FRESH row over the SNP's controversial local income tax plans broke out last night as the final days of campaigning in the Glasgow East by-election began.
Armed Forces Minister Bob Ainsworth claimed the plans to scrap council tax and replace it with a 3p in the pound local tax would hit soldiers hard as their bills were currently subsidised.

A Private currently charged £33 a year in council tax woul
d have to pay £600, Ainsworth said. A Navy commander currently paying just £113 would end up paying £2,294, he added.

But the SNP hit back, describing Ainsworth's claims as "inaccurate", "unfortunate" and "absurd".

The row is the latest to hit the SNP over its LIT proposals, which were also attacked last week by business leaders, union chiefs and local authorities.

In a letter to Scottish Finance Secretary John Swinney, Ainsworth said: "I have extremely serious concerns over the replacement of council tax with a local income tax and the damaging impact it would have on Service and Ministry of Defence civilian personnel, especially younger and lower paid personnel."

Servicemen and women currently have their council tax paid by the MoD, which takes a deduction from their pay by way of a contribution.

The MoD said if the income tax were introduced it would lead to Scottish soldiers having to pay higher amounts. Ainsworth also drew a comparison to the Poll Tax, saying the costs of administering the new tax would be huge, and claiming that the new tax was "more unfair".

"We have approximately 13,000 service personnel based in Scotland with approximately 4,500 moves into and out of Scotland in each year," Ainsworth added.

"We cannot quantify the cost of necessary changes to our payroll system without details of the system you are proposing to introduce. But it should be compared with the introduction of the Poll Tax, which required the establishment of a new administrative team.

"The money required to fund this new bureaucratic overhead would reduce the resources we can get to front line to support our armed forces," he said.

In his letter, he concluded: "It is hard to express how badly this would hit the morale of Scottish troops who would know that they are receiving a lower allowance because of the local income tax you proposed to take. They would undoubtedly feel undermined by the impact of your policy."

Ainsworth's comments met a blunt response last night.

A spokesman for Swinney said: "Given the many failures by the Ministry of Defence to look after the welfare of our soldiers and veterans, this inaccurate attack on our fair local income tax proposals is particularly unfortunate and absurd.

"The Scottish Government's absolute commitment to helping our armed forces personnel and their families and Scotland's veteran community was demonstrated by the measures we announced last week to boost their entitlement in health and social care, education and training, transport and housing.

"In a number of respects, these go further than provision south of the border. We will consider all the responses to our consultation, and bring forward our detailed proposals in due course for Scotland's Parliament to decide – not the MoD."

Scottish Government ministers also point to research which shows that the public are in favour of a local income tax.

The CBI, Institute of Directors, National Union of Students, STUC, Unison and Glasgow City Council are among those who responded negatively to a Scottish Government consultation.

Last week, the Federation of Small Businesses said the income-based charge would cripple its members and undermine Scotland's ability to compete with England.



The full article contains 605 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 23:50:52
The Armed Forces Minister is correct that the SNP’s Local Income Tax would be “more unfair”. Some examples of why:

1. Relatively wealthy people who derive a portion of their income from savings and investments would pay absolutely no local income tax on those.

2. A young professional couple (a police constable and a primary teacher, for example) living in a band D house could well pay more.

3. Families whose adult children still live with them (thereby using fewer council services than if they lived apart) would pay more.

4. Self-employed people would have their earnings taxed in such a way that the harder they work the more local tax they pay in a personal capacity.

5. Those same people could evade LIT by setting up limited companies and deriving much of their income through share dividends.

6. Up to 55,000 full-time students, primarily the poorest who have to work themselves through college or university, would be liable.

Obviously the SNP pours scorn on the Armed Forces Minister’s claims, but can we trust them on this, given contradictory statements they’ve made? Just two examples:

1. Alex Salmond’s spokesman said: “Let us be clear that the local income tax will be 3p, not any more or less”, but an SNP statement actually said: “We shall set a rate of 3p in the pound for all local authorities in the first instance. In the longer term we will move towards allowing local authorities greater flexibility in setting the local income tax rate.”

2. John Swinney claimed that “90 per cent of Scots would benefit from our proposals”. But later an SNP consultation document said: “Our analysis estimates that in 2007-08, under a LIT, 67% of Scottish households would have experienced an increase in net income.”

So despite being a superficially attractive idea, a LIT would actually be less fair than Council Tax. No wonder that over three-quarters of the responses to the SNP’s loaded “consultation” exercise actually rejected the proposal.
2

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/07/2008 00:02:16
The percentage population that would be better off under the so called 'Local Income Tax' seems to be shrinking every day.
3

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/07/2008 00:04:04
Labour odds for Glasgow East are getting shorter every day.

Labour 4/11
SNP 15/8

I wonder how much money gambler Salmond is going to lose on his predicted "Political Earthquake".
4

ThomasP,

20/07/2008 00:06:09
"Armed Forces Minister Bob Ainsworth claimed the plans to scrap council tax and replace it with a 3p in the pound local tax would hit soldiers hard as their bills were currently subsidised."

The London Government refusing to continue to subsidise her Armed Forces based within Scotland.

Shameful.
5

Rasco,

inverness 20/07/2008 00:11:10
As a penisoner who gets no benifits and not a rich person I would be far better off so AM2 anything that will save me money I'm for it as my fuel bills are going up all the time under your union cronies.
6

subrosa,

20/07/2008 00:19:37
'Servicemen and women currently have their council tax paid by the MoD, which takes a deduction from their pay by way of a contribution.'

The above statement is rubbish. Military personnel do not have their council tax paid BY the MOD but paid THROUGH the MOD.

My family member has to pay council tax twice. Once through the MOD for accommodation he uses 4 nights of the week and once by himself on his shared house.

I've said that shouldn't be and I'm right. He just doesn't have the time to be emailing/writing to those who won't listen.

UK Government departments are in such a mess I don't envy Cameron & co the job of sorting them out.

I'll be far better off under LIT so 'bring it on'.

7

ThomasP,

20/07/2008 00:22:48
6 Subrosa.

Yes. Correct. The MOD deducts the soldiers income with the subisides they receive. The amount of money the Army offers you, is the amount of money you will receive. Tax etc etc is always taken away for you.
8

Mik Wilso,

20/07/2008 00:34:48
As a former member of the Armed Forces who was wounded and decorated I can tell everyone reading this that I wouldn't trust one word that comes out of the mouth of the current Labour government or their followers.

This spin is beyond belief.
9

,

20/07/2008 00:44:12
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10

,

20/07/2008 00:51:48
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11

The Strategist,

20/07/2008 00:54:06
Hmmm... "The CBI, Institute of Directors, National Union of Students, STUC, Unison and Glasgow City Council are among those who responded negatively to a Scottish Government consultation."

Given that these organisations have all been complicit in the exceptionally poor level of economic growth in Scotland I'm sorry to say I take anything they say with a pinch of salt.

12

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

TROLL FREE ZONE 20/07/2008 00:54:57
Union Barnesy at his old tricks again:O)

Wasn't the journalist who infiltrated the Labour campaign African?
13

Iainbroch,

Moray 20/07/2008 01:07:08
NEWSFLASH! NEWSPAPER OF THE YEAR!
DAILY RETARD HOOTERS EXCLUSIVE! SNP LIT DESTROYS TOURIST INDUSTRY

The author of above garbage forgot to add following – just helping him out!

It was revealed today that SNP has secret plans that will destroy Scottish tourist industry and MILLIONS of highly paid and highly skilled jobs. Also the LIT comes under attack from a venerable and reputable source!
After just one year of SNP government NESSIE is to emigrate. We have exclusive interview with Nessie! Margaret Curran as our readers will know is a close relative of said beastie. Nessie says that SNPs LIT will drive her abroad due to unreasonable tax demands of LIT.
Also revealed – SNP to destroy Edinbra Castle, Rosslyn Chapel and several other sites of significance to tourist industry. LIT will damage ability of sites to stay open!
LIT will result in several Universities closing down. Academics and students revolt at plans.
LIT will close down all Scottish airports irreparably damaging tourist industry and economic development!
The end of the Union will mean end of British Open and the end of Golf in Scotland. Trump will have only Golf course in Scotland! It is thought that SNP has agreed to sell St.Andrews the hallowed home of golf to him on the cheap after collapse of Golf and tourist Industry.
LIT will close and result in the demolition of MILLIONS of Holiday homes!
Hundreds of MILLIONS of tourists are already turning their back on Scotland in disgust at SNPs NAZI racist policies’. The DAILY RETARD has contacted several potential tourists who have said they cancelled holidays plans because of SNP and LIT!
LIT will result in destruction of Scottish Nation!

DON’T LET IT HAPPEN – VOTE LABOUR ON 24TH JULY!

GET YOUR FREE FLAVOURED CONDOMS HERE: IT MAKES VOTING LABOUR A MORE PALATABLE PROPOSITION! SPECIALLY LUBRICATED FOR THE CONSTIPATED!




14

Richardinho,

20/07/2008 01:10:10
Everyone is going to pay more under LIT, yet there's still going to be less tax take. So the poor excuses for journalists who work for The 'Scotsman' would have us believe. How this is possible is, of course, never explained.
15

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

TROLL FREE 20/07/2008 01:13:38
The Tartan Army are in uproar as it was revealed that the SNP's Local Income Tax will mean losing to Holland in March. This is a FURTHER BLOW to the SNP's plans for a local tax...
16

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20/07/2008 01:20:07
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17

Alan Reid,

NZ 20/07/2008 01:30:43
AM2 is a Tory, we knew that a long time ago.
18

Senga Jean,

20/07/2008 01:40:48
Simple really. The Local Income Tax is generally a fair tax. Where it is not the employer makes a slight adjustment. So MOD level it out . SORTED. (or is this just another example of Britnat BS)
19

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20/07/2008 01:42:18
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20

Wisnaeme,

Sent to Coventry 20/07/2008 01:44:10
.
Ainsworth eh? Aye, ah've had dealings wae yon knunt.

An ye thought yon four eyed weasel,Labour Chappie Brian Wilson wis sleekit and not to be trusted. Dearie me, yon peoples partei representitive in Coventry makes Wilson seem positively Saintly.

Take it from me, What Ainsworth bawjaws, ain't worth the repeating, or the digesting. Jist another privateering yes man, so he is.
.
21

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 20/07/2008 01:48:18
AM2 is a political troll placed here by Labour Tory or the Scotsman newspaper itself

I would love to know how someone can despise his country as much as he does
22

The Answer,

Glasgow 20/07/2008 01:49:11
How much exactly is raised from council tax including the £400 million CTB ?
23

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 20/07/2008 01:56:44

No18

Will I pay less than I do mow

If that is the case I am fine by that

24

Willie Macleod,

Wick 20/07/2008 02:06:32
If we paid our armred forces more for what we expect from them.

Then local taxation be it council tax or LIT would not be so much of a problem,




25

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

20/07/2008 02:12:17

MoD LIT Scare Story

The full details of LIT have not been announced yet and may well include a full exemption for all soldiers living in Barracks.....

Something however doesn't make sense in the figures that the MoD are using......

Bob Ainsworth, Defence Minister wrote the following

"An army warrant officer's payments would increase from £84 a year to £1,570 and a navy commander would have to pay £2,924 per annum instead of £113....He also claimed that the charges paid by privates would rise from £33 a year to £600......"

These are all based on soldiers who live in Barracks, Any Soldier/Fanmily privately renting or owning is paying full council tax.



To be paying the claimed £600, you'd need to be earning over £25k

Typical Private's pay is from £13000-18000
Typical Lance Corporal's Pay is around £20-39000
Typical Sergeant's Pay is around £42000

For the typical Private that would be between £180-450


As for the Officers, it's highly unlikely the two ranks above on that pay are living in squalid army barracks..... more likely in a very expensive houses attracting full council tax.

To be paying the claimed £1570, you 'd have to be earning well over £55k annually......
An Army Warrant Officer Level 4 actually gets paid £42,389.16

That would be £1090, equivalent to Band D Council Tax


To be paying the claimed £2,924 , you'd have to be earning well over £90k annually....

An RN Commander Level 6 actually gets paid £71,158.56

That would be £1968, equivalent to Band G Council Tax




Source for Salaries www.navycs.com
26

subrosa,

20/07/2008 02:26:11
# 31 As for the Officers, it's highly unlikely the two ranks above on that pay are living in squalid army barracks..... more likely in a very expensive houses attracting full council tax.

Officers do live in army barracks but in the officers mess which is of a better standard than the basic accommodation provision. Officers don't necessarily live in expensive houses. My family member in the army pays council tax twice - once through the MOD and then full council tax on the very small flat which he saved to buy. He is regularly moved around and is usually too far away from his home, so has to use officers mess facilities, where he is charged again - even though he's just there for part of a week. The system is dreadful.
27

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 20/07/2008 03:23:31
#1 AM2

Your posts get worse as the Union cause becomes more desperate.

"1. Relatively wealthy people who derive a portion of their income from savings and investments would pay absolutely no local income tax on those."

There is no reason why the 3% cannot be applied to unearned income as well as earned income.

"2. A young professional couple (a police constable and a primary teacher, for example) living in a band D house could well pay more."

Why dont you use the argument about the young professional couple ( a headhunter and a collections agent)? Playing to peoples feelings and not sense I guess.

"3. Families whose adult children still live with them (thereby using fewer council services than if they lived apart) would pay more."

They do not use less services, wether they live with their parents or on their own, they still produce rubbish, they still use the toilet, they still walk the streets. Before they got a free ride at everybody elses expense.

"4. Self-employed people would have their earnings taxed in such a way that the harder they work the more local tax they pay in a personal capacity."

So now you dont like taxes based on someones ability to pay. You think its better if the burden should fall disproportionately on the poor.

"5. Those same people could evade LIT by setting up limited companies and deriving much of their income through share dividends.

see response to number 1

"6. Up to 55,000 full-time students, primarily the poorest who have to work themselves through college or university, would be liable."

They are getting a free education, hardly any of them working part-time will be making more than 200 pounds a week. So these these poor students cant afford 6 quid? They will be forced to give up 1 pack of fags or 3 pints a week. Such a hardship.
28

terry osser,

morden 20/07/2008 03:32:05
all taxes are a con. lower taxes all round are needed. less bureaucracy is the way to save the money. then these arguments do not matter
29

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20/07/2008 03:44:29
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20/07/2008 03:45:18
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20/07/2008 03:46:12
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32

Hebb,

Scotia 20/07/2008 06:49:32
#15

In relation to criticism of LIT and the daily diet of laughably contrived "hammer-blow to Nats" type headlines in our utterly impartial media, I was intrigued to hear BBC Scotland reporter Kit Fraser describing Labour dominated Glasgow City Council, the STUC and the NUS as bodies from outside the world of politics.

33

Jimmy the Pie,

20/07/2008 07:39:38
Is this really the best you can do Eddie. This 'story' has been run everyday for the last month. Do you think anyone believes a word New Labour Sleaze tell you write??

As this is a Westminster election you would have thought the affairs of Westminster would have been to the fore???

But if we ran those stories your beloved Sleaze party would take a real beating.

Get out on Thursday and vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people
34

John S,

20/07/2008 07:52:50
#39:Jimmy the Pie, I agree when you wrote:- As this is a Westminster election you would have thought the affairs of Westminster would have been to the fore???
35

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20/07/2008 08:00:44
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20/07/2008 08:07:03
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20/07/2008 08:10:43
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38

Earman,

Dumfries 20/07/2008 08:14:17
....and, even as the water started lapping around his feet, Canute , comfortable in his conceit, denied that it was so, and proclaimed to all who, slave-like, remained that the irresistable tide was, in fact, receding. However........
39

Pink Sombrero,

20/07/2008 08:19:12
1. What a way to start the day, the whiff of Unionist panic at the Glasgow East by-election....

AM2 will now explain why a pensioner living alone should pay the same CT as 4 working adults living next door.

And the armed forces minister will probably tell us why he is sending servicemen and women into harms way lacking the proper equipment. Maybe he was too busy calculating fictitious LIT figures for an LIT scheme which is at the consultation stage.
40

The Tin Man,

20/07/2008 08:23:09
At the end of the day, if the proposed rise in income tax goes above 3% (and it will after the first year, just like the CT) people receiving the median income will, on the whole, end-up paying more than through CT.

Increases to PAYE income tax will not be so obvious, as we will no longer be getting an invoice through the letter-box.

This is because abolishing a property tax, and increasing income tax will take a lot of people out of the tax-base.

Although PAYE income tax is based on the ability to pay, it is based on the ability of many, but not all people's ability to pay. The continued inclusion of at least some revenue from a property-based tax is a better idea.

The plans for the cut-backs required for the proposed 280MM tax-cut appear to be non-existant.
41

donald,

glasgow 20/07/2008 08:33:06
How much does Trident pay Dumbarton Labour Party to bring their banner oot tae Faslane?
42

allan58,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 08:44:48
The Labour objections to the local income tax are as farcical as they are false. There is absolutely no reason as to why the military personnel cannot continue to have their local taxes subsidised via the MOD. This "objection" was nothing more than a cheap nasty threat.
Administration would be simplicity itself. The tax would be deducted at source through PAYE & administered by the Inland Revenue. PAYE records would only need to be updated with a check box marked SVR (Scottish Variable Rate). Once updated, tax would be deducted at source. If you are not liable to tax, you don't pay. Service personnel could be given an allowance to offset any "increase" in local income taxes.

As for me, I would be over £400 a year better off under the SNP proposals. Therefore, I am all for it!

The Scottish variable rate was included as part of the Devolution bill. Why is Westminster running scared now? Is it afraid of losing control?

43

The Tin Man,

20/07/2008 08:51:54
#51 Alan58

Agreed.
44

bluehead,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 08:59:15
so now the MOD are all concerned about the welfare of our Soldiers over the local income tax!
Who would ever have believed it?
could it be more, because, of the local electiom coming?
I think, that, the only people politicians are concerned about are themselves,
I would not give one old penny for the lot of them put to together.
45

Jimmy the Pie,

20/07/2008 09:00:23
Did Maggie Curran not used to stand on the lines at Faslane, protesting against Trident????

Bit of a hypocrite Mags????
46

Senga Jean,

20/07/2008 09:18:43
#54 AM2 knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. To me Scottish Independence does not have a price tag but it would be strange if Scotland with all its human and natural resources was unique in not being viable. The truth of course is that it would do very well when Independent and as an actor recently said ,it would have a renewed confidence.
47

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 20/07/2008 09:27:55
The principal reason for the hostility shown towards the proposal off introducing a local income tax by Blair and Brown's lying, corrupt, sleazy New Labour Party, has that it's always been recognised as the most fair way to raise the cash needed for local community requirements. In simple language,you would pay according to your financial ability to do so.
What could be fairer than that, in our "FREEDOM LOVING DEMOCRACY" with the 4th richest economy?
48

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20/07/2008 09:30:27
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49

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 20/07/2008 09:38:23
Let's be very clear, a property based tax is grossly unfair, but it is fairly simple to collect, which is why it is favoured by many Governments.

What the SNP are trying to do is base the tax on 'ability to pay'. It is of course more difficult to administer, but unlike New labour - it is principled.

Interestingly - reversing the situation; (AM2 please note....)

If someone lives in a 5 b/r house with an acre of grounds and is disabled or unemployed, then according to the Labour way of thinking they should get far more in benefits than someone in a one bed flat?

50

allan58,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 09:43:01
Will your IQ permit you to spell hypocrite #54? Well, here goes - H Y P O C R I T E . You berate the SNP supporters for attacking AM2 & then you proceed to do the same thing thing to SNP supporters that you attack THEM for!

You have thus far done nothing to produce any reasonable argument AGAINST the local income tax proposal.

At least an income tax is directly related to what you earn. If you can come up with an idea that is fairer than the council tax, then surely you should either enlighten us or, say nothing.


51

shivago8,

livingston 20/07/2008 09:46:07
You begin to understand why the Armed Forces and the MOD are in dire straits and are completely out of touch is because of Ainsworth.The man has no idea and should be put out to grass without pension
52

LEAL,

20/07/2008 09:51:38
Another nonsense anti SNP story.Why should any Scot pay any attention to what Ains worth has to say on Scottish matters.He is based in London,England and acts in accordance with their interests,not Scotlands.
53

shivago8,

livingston 20/07/2008 09:52:06
Why should my disabled wife and I living on a pension pay double on council tax what a household with four wage earners do.
Why should my disabled wife and I living on a pension pay double for water rates what a household with four adults do.
It,s crazy,unfair and flawed.
Income tax from source will catch all these non payers
54

inkster,

20/07/2008 10:01:15
The Scotsman was Conservative and Unionist for years
The Tories vanished
Now they are Labour and Unionist
Labour is vanishing
As they always back losers lets hope they become
Liberal and Unionist

As the Liberals are about to vanish why don't they just out themselves, call it 'The Unionist' and appoint AM2 as its Editor.



55

inkster,

20/07/2008 10:03:48
Then Vanish
56

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20/07/2008 10:06:11
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20/07/2008 10:06:32
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58

allan58,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 10:07:28
Very eloquently put #64. Well said sir.

The real issue here is NOT a local income tax but Westmister having no control over the taxes raised! I can understand why. Despite all the anti-Scottish ranting about the Barnett formula & how "London subsidises the Scots, Scotland actually returns MORE to the Exchequer in taxes than is paid in government grant.

The only "difficulties" in administering a local income tax wil be those that are put there by Westminster DESPITE the Scottish parliament having been granted tax raising powers in the devolution bill.

Of course, this is tied into the independence issue isn't it? Even as a Nationalist supporter, I remain somewhat ambivalent to the idea of independence.

However, I think I am entitled to choose. Independence may turn out to be a mistake but, it is our mistake to make. We have to live with consequences of that choice.

It does however stink slightly when politicians (and "unionists")rightly berate dictators like Mugabe, Saddam Hussein et al for denying basic democratic rights when at the same time, they seek to deny part of their own population the freedom to choose their own future.
59

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/07/2008 10:10:08
#44 Earman, so that is the King Canute story?

Sounds like more disinformation from the Natz.
60

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/07/2008 10:12:38
The Johnstone press share price is shooting up again.

The Scotsman must be doing something right.
61

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20/07/2008 10:15:03
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62

LEAL,

20/07/2008 10:18:01
70 rufus t firefly
The London based parties cannot hold back the tide of Independence.The Scottish people no longer believe their lies.
63

Jimmy the Pie,

20/07/2008 10:29:56
Another legacy that Comrade Broon will leave.

Due to his total incompetence in handling the economy, by the end of the Sleaze Party's reign, in 2010, there won't be a bank left that is UK owned except Northern Rock. The A & L is already gone, Barclay's is now 40% foreign owned.

Prudence my a**e
64

Linda,

Edinburgh 20/07/2008 10:39:27
More Labour scaremongering given uncritical reporting by Unionist newspapers. Just last year when they claimed like every Scottish family being £5000 worse off under an SNP government.

In fact the vast majority in Glasgow East including service personnel would be better off under the much fairer Local Income Tax.
65

Publius,

Girvan 20/07/2008 10:41:34
#61 allan58

Allan You write

"You have thus far done nothing to produce any reasonable argument AGAINST the local income tax proposal. At least an income tax is directly related to what you earn. If you can come up with an idea that is fairer than the council tax, then surely you should either enlighten us or, say nothing."

I have no brief for AM2 but here are some arguments against replacing council tax by LIT.

(1) Tax systems work best when there is a mixed bag of taxes - income tax, corporation tax, excises, property tax, VAT etc. Abolishing property tax (council tax) and putting all the weight on to income tax weakens the mix. Those who can minimise, avoid or evade income tax will do so. The rich will avoid paying their full share. The black economy will grow. So the correlation between income tax and earnings, already weak, will get weaker.
(2) The main beneficiaries will not be the working poor. They will be pensioners in large houses. It is no bad thing that the tax system incentivises pensioners to move to smaller houses while selling their houses on to larger families.
(3) As proposed by Swinney LIT is not a local tax at all. It is a Scotland wide tax of 3p in the £ - a 'tartan tax'.
(4) There is a clear alternative. The Scottish government should assume total responsibility for Scotland-wide services such as education. This would reduce the demands on council budgets and so rein in council tax. (And a single Scottish Education Department would be more efficient than 32 local education departments.)
(5) The argument that council tax has risen disproportionately is false. Council tax has risen by approx 80 percent in the last ten years, but so has income tax for a person on average income.



66

LEAL,

20/07/2008 10:49:19
LIT is fairer.
67

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 10:52:12
As a member of the armed forces I agree we will be worse off under the LIT at the moment I pay 150 per month for Band D council Tax under the new proposals I will have to pay 305 Pounds. on a salerie of 25000 a year.
for information it is not just soldiers this will effect it is the Navy and Airforce as well, I know all the armed forces in Scotland arepreparing to move out
and close all the Barracks and Bases in Scotland and move to england and germany and elsewhere, this includes the scottish regiment who wants to stay and be with the rest of its British Collegues, so basically scotland will lose all that spending revenue
and the local ecomonies will suffer as well. I have said many times before support your armed forces or lose them and unfortunately your going to lose them.
The SNP amongst others have never supported the armed forces and in the 60's cheered on the IRA when we there
68

weh,

20/07/2008 10:54:34
I cant access my the Scottish blog
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/

It has been instrumental in publishing the truth about what is actually going on here-unlike the other "Scots" papers which HIDE the truth!

Am I being paranoid in suspecting the British State having a hand in this?
69

frank mcbride,

lusitania 20/07/2008 11:05:32
#78, Col.

Thanks for the info. Didn't work this time, but I'll remember if it happens again.
70

Iain Ban,

20/07/2008 11:06:04
Is Eddie Barnes really Douglas Fraser in drag?
71

allan58,

Edinburgh 20/07/2008 11:08:57
Thank you #80

It makes a refreshing change to see a reasonable & well balanced argument appearing on this site. I must admit your point #4 had not occurred to me. Interesting idea. Personally, I would have no problem with that.

As for your first point, I make assumption that (an Independent?) Scotland would of course have full autonomy on taxation matters and, this would surely address your concern here as, income tax would presumably be only part of the package?


We can certainly agree on AM2!! a NATURAL COMEDIAN!
I think this is clearly a case of "watch this space".
72

the reporter,

Godalming, Surrey 20/07/2008 11:12:58
Lot of comments removed today, must be serious !
73

brownlie,

20/07/2008 11:13:07
82 Dave

I am surprised that the news that military bases in Scotland are to close down did not make headline news. Do that include Faslane?
74

the reporter,

Godalming, Surrey 20/07/2008 11:13:49
Lot of comments removed today, must be serious !
75

brownlie,

20/07/2008 11:13:50
90 should read "Does that include Faslane".
76

John S,

20/07/2008 11:20:56
#84:Col. Blimp­IV - Have a look at this comment:Down to the wire-
3:44am today.Herald 20 July 2008-http://tinyurl.com/67byyo
77

Jimmy the Pie,

20/07/2008 11:24:07
#82 daveserviceman,
You said
"The SNP amongst others have never supported the armed forces and in the 60's cheered on the IRA when we there"


Is this what your masters told you to say???

I don't know of any SNP member cheering on the IRA, anytime never mind the 60's.

And another puzzle. If you were there in the 60's and you're still in you must be the longest serving soldier ever??? Or are you just deluded???


78

brownlie,

20/07/2008 11:27:10
80 Publius

Morning,

Well thought out post. However, the fact that income tax has risen proportionately to council tax does not justify the 80% increase without any appreciable improvement in services.

79

allan58,

edinburgh 20/07/2008 11:43:24
Well #82.
If I had to pay only £305 a year council tax out of a £25000 salary, I'd be delighted. AS it is, I pay £948 a year out of a salary less than £19000. I hope you will therefore forgive me if I sound unsympathetic. I would save over £400 annually under L I T proposals. Therefore, I make no apology for supporting it.

As for base closures in Scotland, when were these announced? Do you think the Government gave a damn to local economies when closing bases in England & Wales? Of course it didn't. In the last few years we have seen major bases at Finningley,Coltishall,Honington & St Mawgan closed or mothballed. we have seen Rosyth sacrificed in the name of political expediency. The RAF's base at Lyneham is under threat despite it's essential role as a base for the entire Hercules fleet.

No, the sad reality is that despite the sacrifices they make on our behalf, the armed forces are simply regarded as 5-minute heroes by governments. That is to say, they are very handy when votes are to be won but, an expensive inconvenience at all other times.. Never forget how quickly the Chancellor found £2.8 billion to buy the government out of trouble but, he can't find the money to provide basic equipment such as body armour or spare parts for the Forces!
80

Phil1,

Edinburgh 20/07/2008 11:53:41
What's the betting that most of the posts removed for being abusive were written by SNP supporters - they like abusing people who disagree with them.

The article is accurate in the sense that all those living in Military accommodation whether married or single, officers or private soldiers would pay much much more under a local income tax scheme (about 75-80% of service personnel live in service accommodation in Scotland).

Why be surprised by that fact? Local Income tax systems can only work if everyone pays. If this group or that group get exemptions for good reasons maybe then the fewer people paying suddenly have to pay much more. The tax would be progressive which means if you earn more you pay more.

If people don't like the idea of this local Income tax then of course they can use their votes and elect politicians who oppose the idea of a Local Income Tax.

So we'll see at Glasgow East By-Election- Labour Oppose Local Income Tax and SNP support Local Income Tax - I think Labour will win the By -Election but I might be wrong and if so well we live in a democracy and some political augments you win and some you lose.
81

brownlie,

20/07/2008 11:58:15
99 Phil

The sweeping generalisation in your first paragraph do you no credit whatsoever. No posters on here, whether unionist or nationalist, have a monopoly on abusing other posters. Indeed, the implication in your first paragraph can be classed as abusive to nationalists who never post abuse.
82

LEAL,

20/07/2008 12:01:28
LIT is a much fairer way to raise money to pay for local services.The more you earn,the more you pay.
83

Publius,

Girvan 20/07/2008 12:16:20
#87 allan58

Allan. Thank you for your civilised reply.

Scottish independence may or may not be desirable, but the maths and the politics don't make it likely in the near future. A majority in the Scottish Parliament for a referendum isn't likely. An electoral majority for 'yes' isn't likely either.
What is more immediate is the need for good government at Holyrood. I think that SNP is doing a lot better than Labour did, but LIT is a mistake.
84

Publius,

Girvan 20/07/2008 12:22:32
#96 brownlie

Good afternoon Brownlie.

Agree your post 100 per cent. The UK government has wasted an enormous amount of money since 2000, when Brown moved away from the expenditure pattern set by Clarke, his Tory predecessor as chancellor.
Not just income tax and council tax, but oil revenues, corporation tax, buoyant tax revenues created by a boom in western economies generally and the City in particular and stealth taxes of every kind have all been squandered. So little to show for it all and now the state is in debt up to its eyeballs - or our eyeballs. History will be very hard the Blair/Brown years.
85

Iain's,

Barcelona 20/07/2008 12:32:28
Just another New Labour lie!

All existing allowances and subsidies would, of course, be taken into account with a local income tax.

It sounds like New Labour is planning to stop the soldiers' subsidiy. Otherwise, how would they know about it.

Why do these people have to stir up so much trouble and worrry people with their lies?

Of course Scotland voted New Labour so you all deserve what you are getting! Remember you voted for higher taxes and you are getting the highest taxes in the world. Serves you right!







86

Andy Stewart,

Kirkaldy 20/07/2008 12:51:16
“LABOUR’S lead in Glasgow East has been cut to just four per cent, the SNP claimed last night.

Party officials now believe the result could depend on the turnout on Thursday.

And the winner of the by-election could even depend on the weather.”

http://www.sundaypost.com/news2.htm

87

weh,

20/07/2008 12:53:44
THIS WAS WRITTEN 4 YEARS AGO ABOUT SHETTLESTON-IT BEGGARS BELIEF THAT THIS IS SCOTLAND-AFTER 50 YEARS OF VOTING LABOUR-AND STILL FOLKS SEEM TO VOTE FOR THEM!

Scots-for heavens sake-wake up and smell the coffee! Your "politicians" are a joke !


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/mar/14/medicineandhealth.lifeandhealth
88

,

20/07/2008 13:11:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

Publius,

Girvan 20/07/2008 14:22:19
Today's ComRes poll on voting intentions for Westminster (though with small sanple from Scotland):
Con 18
Lab 29
Lib`12
Green 2
SNP 35
Other 4

No comment from me!
90

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 20/07/2008 14:23:00
Thank you Mr Ainsworth, that should be worth a few more
votes..........to the SNP.
91

frank mcbride,

lusitania 20/07/2008 14:24:37
#110, Jwil.

Your assessment of the situation is spot on.

You will also note, if you check the RSS feed, that the hand of the head monitor, AM2, has been at work.

No critism of the "hallowed" one, nor his dissembling, is to be tolerated.

If I am, in any way, guilty of miscalling AM2, I am confident that the Moderator will explain publically why my posts have been deleted.

Anyone can check my deleted posts on the RSS feed.
92

,

20/07/2008 15:00:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

Phil1,

Edinburgh 20/07/2008 15:03:55
Serial 100 brownlie,20/07/2008 11:58:15
99 Phil The sweeping generalisation in your first paragraph etc


Brownlie 100 -
Please see posts at 73, 71, 59, 48, 46, 45, 43, 42, 41 - I could go on but they prove my point so I am being specific not just general. If the cap fits a particular party it needs to be worn.
94

Jimmy the Pie,

20/07/2008 15:14:36
Saturday's Headline: Lard Foolkes found in gutter.
Red Wendy joins SNP. Mike Dailly joins SNP. Lard Foolkes joins SNP - I've always been a nationalist, slurs His Lardship
95

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/07/2008 15:26:53
#114 Solis. . . The johnstone press shareholders will be shaking in their shoes when they hear that one.

The share price will surely crash tomorrow.
96

Jimmy the Pie,

20/07/2008 15:33:33
On the subject of Lard Foolkes I was having a look at his expense claims for his attendance at The House of Lords.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/HoLallowances0607.pdf

For 129 Days attendance he claimed the meagre sum of £77,152!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Utterly unbelievable, £77,152 for what????

If ever a reason was needed to get rid of The House Of Lords it's Fatty Foolkes at the trough - £77,152!!!!!!!
97

,

20/07/2008 15:37:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
98

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 15:47:58
Come on SNP - Also Thanks for the support
from Clydesider Jimmy Reid. If staunch Labour
support like Jimmy Reid can now fully
endorse the SNP their is not a single
voter in Glasgow East that cannot
be persuaded. From a personal letter
from Jimmy Reid :

" I am urging you to support the SNP on Thursday " – Jimmy Reid

I know many people in the East End have voted Labour all their lives and that after years of loyalty to Labour, deciding to vote for another party is not easy.

I understand that because it's a journey I've made myself. I was a member of the Labour party for years, until I came to realise that voting Labour wasn't in Scotland's interests anymore.

It wasn't so much that I left Labour. I felt that they left me. And any doubt I had about that was cast aside forever when I watched Gordon Brown cosying up to Margaret Thatcher in Downing Street last year.

I am proud to support John Mason, the SNP candidate in this week's important by-election, and would urge you to do the same.

The vote on Thursday is a chance to send a message to Labour - telling them we believe they've lost touch with their roots and that we're not happy with rising prices.

The only way to send that message is to vote for the SNP and John Mason.

Don't let it be business as usual for Labour after Thursday. Make your voice heard and make Labour listen. "

see - tinyurl.com/55y47k

"The letter is being sent to 10,000 homes in the constituency as the SNP campaign moves into its final days. "

The SNP Campaigners on the ground are doing
a fantastic job, keep up the great
job and pull this one off.

Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic.
99

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 15:48:27
More support for the SNP -

Martin Compston (Actor - Sweet Sixteen)

"A victory for the SNP candidate John Mason will send a message from the people of the East End of Glasgow that they have had enough and want change for the better.

"This by-election is a real opportunity for the people of Glasgow East to send a message direct to the UK Government that it time for a candidate that will stand up for their interests. Good luck John!"

Peter Howson (Artist - New Glasgow Boys) :
"I give John Mason and the SNP all my support. The Scottish Government has been working really hard since they came into office and have made a real difference in Scotland, which has left me really impressed, strengthening my support for the SNP and the vision of Scottish independence."

David Hayman (Actor - Trial & Retribution)
"The SNP victory last year has brought an enormous sense of optimism and hope to the people of Scotland. In their first year of office the SNP has already made enormous improvements to the quality of life in our country.

“At last we have a party that truly represents the people of Scotland. A vote for the SNP is a vote for a better future."

see - tinyurl.com/5lrs7z

True heart felt support which is in extreme
contrast to the farce that Labour puts
on by coercing actors like John Michie to
feign support when only about a year
ago he to was speaking from the heart
when he stated :


"he said the union was "the last vestige of an empire on which the sun has well and truly set".

"Mr Michie said an independent Scotland would never have participated in the war in Iraq and described independence as a "constructive process" which would also benefit England.

"An independent Scotland would find a new confidence,"

"It would slow down the brain-drain that causes this country to lose so many of its most brightest and most skilled."

"he felt the UK was emotionally and politically redundant."

see tinyurl.com/67pbgh

Saor Alba
100

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 16:05:01

From the Sunday Express

"LABOUR IS FACING ‘OBLIVION’"

"LABOUR is facing “political oblivion” even if it scrapes a victory in the crucial Glasgow East by-election, it was claimed last night.

Commentators insist the party is set to suffer a generation in the wilderness, starting with a disastrous showing in Thursday’s crunch vote. "

"With 1,000 SNP activists on the streets yesterday, political experts pointed to a narrow victory for the Nationalists. "

"Dr Peter Lynch, politics professor at Stirling University, predicted the contest would be decided by just 400 or 500 votes – but said the SNP would win."

see - tinyurl.com/5r3vhn

The SNP Activists on the ground are making a
very material difference.
Hopefully some of the Unionista bloggers
from these forums will also show up
as activists for Labour which will be
incredibly beneficial for the SNP. I can
just imagine them preaching their gloom
and doom whilst trying to follow to the letter
their guide on How To Preserve The Union.

see - tinyurl.com/5ncw8z

Yep the Unionista cabal will be in
Glasgow East wrapped
in their Union Flags singing God Save The Queen
defending the Scottish nation from the nationalist
hoards. I wonder if their first choice candidate
George Ryan will be there to help them -

"But some councillors in Glasgow claim the union flag has sectarian connotations in the west of Scotland, while the national anthem, God Save the Queen, is offensive to Scots."

"They want Glasgow ceremonies to feature the saltire and use the song Flower of Scotland instead."

"Councillor George Ryan is among those backing the alternative plan."

see - tinyurl.com/5hd5ec

Perhaps the Unionistas will have the same
cunning ploy as George Ryan and wrap themselves up
in the Saltire whilst singing Flower of Scotland :)

Saor Alba

101

brownlie,

20/07/2008 16:15:45
116 Phil

No, what you are pointing out is that some so-called Nat supporters are posting abuse. From that you deduce that the cap fits the nationalist party and all nationists should wear it???

It would be too tedious to point out the unionist abuse that individuals like Ciderman, British Pride, Grahamski etc post. Despite these examples I do not consider that all unionists are abusive. This would be just as easy but equally wrong.

102

The Strategist,

20/07/2008 16:31:43
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7515786.stm

103

westview,

in the poor house 20/07/2008 16:36:54
Down with council tax!
104

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 16:37:10

More support for SNP -

Sandi Thom (singer-songwriter)

"Since winning the election in May 2007 I really believe Scotland has changed for the better and there is a really positive vibe in the country.

"With election fever in Scotland again with the by-election I know that the SNP will continue to work hard standing up for Scotland with their Glasgow East candidate John Mason.

"I haven't met John Mason yet but he sounds like a good guy who really cares about helping the good people of Glasgow East and I think he will do a great job in standing up for their interests.

"I wish him the best of luck for July 24th. So good luck John!"

see - tinyurl.com/5qeyhb

I wonder why the Scottish press appears not have
given as much press time to the celebrities that
have declared for the SNP as opposed to the
significant coverage given the Ms Curran's
walk about with faux Unionist Taggart actor
John Michie.
105

Russell M,

Stirling 20/07/2008 16:40:28
The reigning oligarchy, "New" Labour, will do and say anything to stay in power. Only exceeded by Tories when they had their turn. The Scots greatest strength is also our greatest flaw, our loyalty. It has been used against use by the nobility, government and business for generations if not centuries. If we could be just a wee bit more selective in who and for how long we bless with this gift you would see Scotland rise up to its full stature and lead humanity into the future.
106

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 16:41:51
From the New York Times

"Rule, Britannia, but Maybe Not Over Scotland"

"But lately, the English have displayed a newfound resentment that has mirrored a growing confidence and sense of nationalistic entitlement — a general flexing of the biceps — in Scotland. With relations at their uneasiest point in decades, there is even talk that unless the balance of power can somehow be renegotiated, the union is in danger of unraveling."

"In looking at the role of the union in the 21st century, Mr. Lodge drew a comparison to Czechoslovakia.

“When the Czechs and the Slovaks split, it wasn’t because of a massive fight — it was because no one would put forward a good case for keeping them together,” Mr. Lodge said. “In the 21st century in Great Britain, no one’s put forward a clear, compelling case for why the union matters.” "

see - tinyurl.com/5ko8d4

There is no compelling case why the Union matters it's
time has passed, and hopefully Glasgow East will
speed up it's inevitable demise.

Saor Alba
107

,

20/07/2008 16:45:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
108

,

20/07/2008 16:46:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
109

Boggle fey the Bog,

20/07/2008 17:00:36
If the Wastemonster government is so concerned about the cost of collecting the proposed LIT and it's effect on service personnel and MOD civilians, perhaps they should show the same concern for the 'ordinary citizen' who pays their taxes through HMRC!

This overmanned and top heavy Leviathan costs the 'ordinary citizens' 49 pence in every pound sterling collected in taxation and NI contributions, just to administer itself.
That is, for every £100 of revenue collected it costs £49 to collect it, hardly 'Value for Money'.

Lets put it another way, if they operated within acceptable business restraints, i.e. between 12 and 15% of the monies collected are used in administration, that would leave an extra £34 pounds per £100 for the use of the exchequer, either to increase pensions for our beleaguered seniors, actually help disabled people, or buy the necessary equipment for the very brave and courageous members of our Armed Services, or if they didn't want to do that they could just cut income tax, VAT and corporation tax by quite a substantial amount.

So let's have no more crocodile tears from these gross incompetents, and let them actually apply themselves to the job that they have been elected to do.

Which, in case they have forgotten, is not 'towing the party line' but representing their constituents, and ensuring that their constituents, get best value for money on every 'tax pound' collected!!!

Least we forget, it was Gordo who set up HMRC, supposedly as a 'cost cutting' exercise, well if they HAVE cut costs, one shudders to think how much they were before it was set up.

Perhaps the Rt Hon John McFall MP Labour and Cooperative Party, Chairman of the Finance Select Committee, could summons Gordo to explain his actions and why the costs associated with his 'brain child' have spiralled totally out of control?

But then again, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one!!!
110

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 17:08:48
The London Times now has prove positive that
with Labour In Scotland a red rosette on a
monkey is the norm. From the heart of
Labour HQ Glasgow East :

"They would have employed a monkey"

"There’s an oft-repeated dictum that if you were to pin a red rosette to a monkey, it would get elected in Glasgow. I suspect that, had I been a monkey, I’d have been handed a pile of leaflets and pressed into action."

"Walking through the door, I met with a sea of rickety tables, dirty plastic cups and piles of promotional leaflets covering every available surface.
On one wall a supposedly motivational plea penned by Curran smacks of desperation. It is flanked by two more posters, reminding activists that “Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents P-iss Poor Performance” and “Team Work Makes Dream Work.” Some chance!"

"I learn that canvassing now all has to be done manually after it was discovered that the English computer system, which produces printouts of constituents who have voted Labour in the past, doesn’t work in Scottish constituencies"

"The mood among my fellow, largely inexperienced canvassers, dressed in hoodies and grubby jumpers — most of whom have been drafted from constituencies south of the border — was defeatist and downbeat."

"Back at campaign HQ, the team was totting up the canvass returns. With just over a week to go until polling day, 42% of the vote were weak-to-medium Labour supporters with a few die-hards. But with 30% of voters still undecided, there was everything to play for. Nerves were tight, and Martin Rhodes, one of the campaign organisers, was predicting that the result would be “scarily close”.

see - tinyurl.com/62swzs

So a handful of activists from England and
even, an workable, computer system from England
and of course every red rosette monkey is
Labour's current cunning ploy. At this point
the battle for Glasgow East appears to be in
the hands of the activists. The SNP hue
are primarily volunteers who
have a fi
111

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 17:09:42
cont.

So a handful of activists from England and
even, an workable, computer system from England
and of course every red rosette monkey is
Labour's current cunning ploy. At this point
the battle for Glasgow East appears to be in
the hands of the activists. The SNP hue
are primarily volunteers who
have a fire in their bellies with a passion
for what Scotland can be whilst the Labour
Activists appear to be a bunch of mercanary
conscripts who are downbeat and defeatist -
apparently Labour have indeed recruited their
activists from the ranks of
the Scotsman and Herald Unionista
bloggers :) Come on SNP activists win this fight
for us.

Saor Alba
112

Traquir , Alba,

20/07/2008 17:27:27
136 The Spook in Leith

Can you imagine - talk about a sight for sore eyes :)

This could all start to turn very dirty especially
given the inbred habit where monkeys
throw their own poop.
113

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 20/07/2008 17:30:15
Income tax is expensive to collect and open to all manner of avoidance and evasion.

A local VAT or Sales tax by comparison is cheap to collect and very hard to cheat. It's high time all taxation was based on what we spend and not on what we earn. It also encourages savings and investment as a beneficial alternative to taxed expenditure and the benefits system would require very little tweaking to ensure that the less well-off aren't penalised.
114

brownlie,

20/07/2008 17:34:57
136 Spook

Greetings, Spooky, my favourite "pink" nat

What about my illustrious unionist colleagues Elizabeth the First and, of course, Alfred E.!!
115

brownlie,

20/07/2008 17:46:45
141 Spook

Re monkey's backsides I believe they have ceremonial burnings of them in Majorca.

I'm on holidays but my pals tells me canvassing is going well in Glasgow.

Talking about canvas they are letting Alfred out of his jacket soon.

Toodle pip!!
116

Eve,

20/07/2008 17:49:07
#1 AM2: You forget that that you only get tax on what you earn above a certain amount.

Student will NOT pay more, if they are then they are NOT concentrating on their studies!! It's recomened that a student should work more than 16hours. For a student to pay more tax then they'd have to be working over the recomend. Currently students who work over 16 hours often drop out of their studies so you have little or no point there.

I belive they are plans to give grants to poorer student so they don't have to work over the recomend 16 hours.

I think unfortently these days went yer student you have scrimb and scape and budget what little money you do have.

I did, as a result I didn't go out as often as I would have like to and basicaly lived on pasta and soup during my uni days. And before you say I had more money then your wrong cause their were students fom poorer familyes who had more money because they got a busery on top of their student loan. Mind you they tended also to go out alot more than me. BUT hey you do want you've got to do.
117

Eve,

Scotland (What I ment to say #143 20/07/2008 17:52:50
Opps I have no idea what happened there I have appear to have type NOT instead of ONLY. Comment #143 should have read:

#1 AM2: You forget that that you only get tax on what you earn above a certain amount.

Student will ONLY pay more, if they are then they are NOT concentrating on their studies!! It's recomened that a student should work more than 16hours. For a student to pay more tax then they'd have to be working over the recomend. Currently students who work over 16 hours often drop out of their studies so you have little or no point there.

I belive they are plans to give grants to poorer student so they don't have to work over the recomend 16 hours.

I think unfortently these days went yer student you have scrimb and scape and budget what little money you do have.

I did, as a result I didn't go out as often as I would have like to and basicaly lived on pasta and soup during my uni days. And before you say I had more money then your wrong cause their were students fom poorer familyes who had more money because they got a busery on top of their student loan. Mind you they tended also to go out alot more than me. BUT hey you do want you've got to do.
118

Eve,

Scotland 20/07/2008 17:59:38
#136 The Spook in Leith: I'd watch what ye say you may get banned!!! Then the place will become more borind SoS and Scotsman are bias toward the side!
119

snoozyowl,

Wales 20/07/2008 18:00:09
The whole point of LIT is that it replaces a narrow property-based tax with one that taxes all those with declared incomes, including co-habiters with multiple incomes, adult offspring living at home, and so on. The problem is that it is just as prone to fiddling as normal income tax is. The self-employed and partnerships in particular will have a field day with LIT and Salmond should look very carefully at the amounts he has allowed for avoidance in setting the 3%. Maybe he should consider an alternative minimum LIT for those inclined towards fiscal cunning. Council tax is an awful tax, it bears no relation to ability to pay, but at least it is easy to define and very hard to avoid. Also, Scots, you and the Welsh share the privilege of having very low council tax. The 3% might be 4% in England!
120

Conan the Librarian™,

20/07/2008 18:02:20
Evening Spook

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2403345.0.The_front_runner_behaving_like_an_underdog.php

Is Alan HM or what?
121

Boggle fey the Bog,

20/07/2008 18:06:25
138 Jacqueline Hyde ,On the shelf 20/07/2008 17:30:15

Income tax doesn't have to be expensive to collect, it only gets expensive when you don't clamp down on 'loop holes' which allow 'evasion and avoidance'.

Taxing spending, will never help poor people as they will always be taxed disproportionately on their incomes, with an expenditure based tax, because they have less but are forced to pay the same rate of purchase tax/VAT/Sales tax whatever fraudulent name you wish to give it. Taxes on expenditure are an attack on the poor.

A basic example 5% VAT on domestic fuel, not much 5p in the pound, is it?
Well if you earn £400/week and your weekly domestic fuel bill is £42 inc VAT that's only £2/week in VAT or 0.5% if your income.

If, however you are earning 60% or less of the National Median Wage, it is a different story, take someone on £250 per week with a £42/wk domestic fuel bill, that £2 of VAT has now transformed itself into 0.8% of the subjects income or 60% more in proportion to someone on £400/wk, therefore if you rely solely on taxing expenditure, then you increase the %age tax burden on the poor, leaving the poor with less disposable income and fewer opportunities to save money,which runs contrary to your stated outcome.

Further on the cost of collection of taxes by HMRC, they don't just collect 'income tax', they are also responsible for the collections of VAT, NICs, Excise Duty, Corporation Tax etc;etc;,.

So the question still is, why does it cost so much to collect?
Most of the revenue collected by them are not income based, so that sort of blows apart your hypothesis on it being less expensive to collect expenditure based taxes.

You are also getting Fortescues mixed up with your Farquharsons ;-)
122

Eve,

Scotland 20/07/2008 18:16:20
#139 The Spook in Leith: Have you seen this wan it so true!!! And funny!! Sonds a wee bit out of date too.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zO5leiwEiTM&feature=related
123

Eve,

Scotland 20/07/2008 18:25:23
#147 The Spook in Leith: Doing the temp thing tell I can find something in my feild. It's really boreing!! Hows you?

Is that because the 5% live with workers?

During my Uni days I tried to stay away from shareing with workers, because of the concil tax situation. Though NOT really fare I admit because you have people who make very little money in flat shares too.
124

Eve,

Scotland 20/07/2008 18:45:12
#155 The Spook in Leith: Thats braw!!

I thought their was a lot more Part time students than that!!! Giving the apparent popularity of open universty and night classes.

Where on earth does that happen living in Tescos car park. They would never allow it. Cause I heard they wan give a fine to a heavily pregnant women who parked in a parent and child space. The poor woman was massive and was days/ hours away from giving birth and wouldn't have been able to get out the car in a normal car parking space.
125

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

20/07/2008 19:15:43


1 AM2, Scotland,UK 19/07/2008 23:50:52


1. Relatively wealthy people who derive a portion of their income from savings and investments would pay absolutely no local income tax on those.

I note your sue of the word 'portion' of their income from savings and investments, pray tell AM2, where do they get the rest? - Earnings?

How many people live solely from savings or investment dividends?



2. A young professional couple (a police constable and a primary teacher, for example) living in a band D house could well pay more.

Unlikely, Band D is approximately £1213 annual

Policeman earning £25k and his Wife a Primary School Teacher who earns £20k
Combined Income £45k

Current Council Tax £1,213

LIT 3.5% = £1195
SAVING £18


3. Families whose adult children still live with them (thereby using fewer council services than if they lived apart) would pay more.

Eh? - Your argument shows up the flaw with Council TAX, houses don't use council services, PEOPLE do.

Anyone working and earning above the tax allowance has an ability to pay and should do.



4. Self-employed people would have their earnings taxed in such a way that the harder they work the more local tax they pay in a personal capacity.

Again, this argument is non-sensical, you could flip and say the bigger the house the more you pay too.....



5. Those same people could evade LIT by setting up limited companies and deriving much of their income through share dividends.

Dividends are classed as income and would be taxed within the current LIT Proposals, incorporated companies require to submit accounts and self-employed people require to submit end of year self assessment accounts confirming earnings. Anomalies would soon become apparent.


6. Up to 55,000 full-time students, primarily the poorest who have to work themselves through college or university, would be liable.

A student in FULL TIME Education earning around say £5400 annually from a part time bar
126

Andy Stewart,

20/07/2008 19:49:34
Excellent posts about the forthcoming Glasgow East by election on the website politicalbetting.com and most informative.
The SNP appear to have more than just a fighting chance of getting a result
127

,

20/07/2008 20:16:38
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128

mac1888,

20/07/2008 20:37:39
The nats will win this bi election its a dead cert :)
129

mac1888,

20/07/2008 20:38:39
unionism is history!
130

,

20/07/2008 21:26:29
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131

,

20/07/2008 21:30:38
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132

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/07/2008 22:46:23
#165

A low turnout then. Everybody will be lying about on the grass drinking Buckfast.
133

Tris,

21/07/2008 00:17:45
Another set of lies from a disreputable set of skunks in London.

The armed forces minister would do well to stop prattling about the situation in Scotland and worry about how things are in Afghanistan, Iraq, and, if he has time left over, he might just like to take into consideration the mess that the military houses are in, thanks to years of neglect from Westminster.

Oh and AM2... I see your arguments were torn up for toilet paper. It's a swine when you're up against someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

134

Tris,

21/07/2008 00:39:31

BTW I note from The Times that because of rising fuel costs the training schedules for military are to be cut to save money. Maybe the Armed Forces idiot Minister would like to comment on that.......
135

,

19/10/2008 12:31:34
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