Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Labour implodes over independence vote

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 08 May 2008
A DAY of extraordinary disarray within Labour has left serious questions hanging over the party's leadership on both sides of the Border. Days after Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, called for a referendum on independence, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, directly contradicted her when put on the spot at Westminster yesterday.
His failure to support Ms Alexander left some critics suggesting her position was untenable and saying she should step down immediately.

But last night she refused to quit and insisted that she and the Prime Minister were in agreement.

Labour's implosion began just after midday in the Commons, where MPs had gathered for Prime Minister's Questions. Already facing a rough ride after the party's meltdown in local elections last week, Mr Brown was quizzed by David Cameron, the Tory leader, on Ms Alexander's call for an early referendum on Scottish independence.

But instead of backing her, Mr Brown said the situation should be reviewed when the Calman commission on devolution had reported. And, in an even more surprising sign of a party in chaos, he appeared to deny that she had even called for a referendum.

When the Tory leader asked Mr Brown if he agreed with Ms Alexander that a referendum should be held "now", the Prime Minister replied: "That is not what she has said."

Mr Cameron retorted: "I think you are losing touch with reality."

Mr Brown certainly appeared to reveal a lack of communication between his office and Ms Alexander's. Only a day earlier, when asked if Mr Brown supported her calls for a referendum, the Scottish Labour leader simply said: "Yes."

As news of Mr Brown's comments at PMQs spread, Ms Alexander went to ground.

She and her aides hid from the press for almost three hours while they tried to get their story straight. During this period, there was a desperate phone call to Mr Brown from Ms Alexander.

She issued a statement just after 3pm saying there was no disagreement. But it only added to the confusion, by failing to restate her position of earlier in the week.

Her spin doctor then faced the press pack. He claimed Mr Cameron's use of the word "now" meant the Tory leader was technically wrong over Ms Alexander's position on a referendum. But he went on to confirm that she and the Holyrood Labour group wanted a plebiscite as soon as possible.

However, a source close to Ms Alexander admitted to The Scotsman: "There is a difference between them (Ms Alexander and Mr Brown] on that bit (waiting for the Calman commission], but Wendy intends to stick to her guns."

Matters were made worse when it emerged that Labour could not, as Ms Alexander had said it might do, bring forward a bill to have a referendum and force the SNP's hand. This is because the SNP has already tabled a white paper and indicated that a bill will be brought forward before the election.

Meanwhile, the SNP sat back and rejoiced at the apparent implosion of the Labour Party on this crucial constitutional issue. They joined the Tories and the Liberal Democrats in saying Ms Alexander's position was untenable.

Mr Cameron twisted the knife further by writing to Mr Brown, pointing out that what he and Ms Alexander had said could not both be correct.

The saga follows three of the most remarkable days for post-devolution Scottish politics, which started with Ms Alexander stunning everyone, especially her Labour colleagues at Holyrood, with a U-turn on an independence referendum and saying she wanted one as soon as possible.

Suspicions about Mr Brown's private unhappiness over his close ally's stance were aroused on Tuesday, when he said the issue was a matter for Ms Alexander.

Labour MSPs are refusing to say Ms Alexander should quit as leader, but many were keeping their heads down yesterday. Many who did show their faces were far from happy and some were taking sides between the party's UK and Scottish leaders.

One joked, "I think I'm going to join the Lib Dems", while another said: "I think we are in a parallel universe."

But a third claimed: "I guess he (Gordon Brown] has lost control of the Scottish Labour Party, but I know which one is right, and that's Wendy.

"We've been fighting on public policy for a year and, let's be honest, we failed. We need to get the independence issue out of the way and then attack the SNP on their cuts.

"(Alex] Salmond now has to explain why he is not going to bring a bill for a referendum forward immediately."

Only one Labour MSP, Karen Gillon, has come out against a referendum, but she insists she is "loyal to her leader".

She also opposed a referendum on devolution.

The SNP's Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, was the first to go on the attack. "Wendy Alexander's position is now completely untenable," she said. "At a stroke, Gordon Brown has destroyed her leadership and placed serious questions over his own."

Mr Salmond described Labour's troubles as a "spectator sport" and said the SNP would stick to its pledge of producing a referendum bill in 2010. He added: "I'm not sure if Wendy Alexander is trying to get rid of Gordon Brown, or Gordon Brown is trying to get rid of Wendy Alexander."

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, who has always opposed an independence referendum and has accused Ms Alexander of treachery, also demanded that she go.

Last night, the Scottish Labour leader was left desperately defending her position.

Asked if she intended to quit, she replied: "Not at all."

When asked if her position was untenable, she said: "I have the support of the Prime Minister, the Labour group of MSPs, of many party members and the people of Scotland, who feel they have the right to have a say on this matter."

PM pulls a score bore out of fire as Cameron gives him a chance to make-up lost ground

Ross Lydal

LITTLE did he know it, but Gordon Brown had Boris Johnson to thank for the cheer that greeted his arrival in the Commons chamber yesterday.

Moments earlier, the new mayor of London had been greeted by mass approval on the Tory benches. Labour MPs may be down in the dumps, but they're not ready to be outdone in the pantomime stakes.

It was the Prime Minister's first Question Time since the local election drubbing. And David Cameron, the Tory leader, was only too keen to drive a wedge between Mr Brown and Wendy Alexander, Labour's leader in Scotland.

With a dutiful nod to the Speaker, Mr Cameron launched his six questions by asking about Ms Alexander's "bring it on" call for a referendum.

Did the Prime Minister agree with her view that there "should be a referendum now"?

"That is not what she said," returned the great clunking fist, leaving MPs scratching their heads in puzzlement.

Surely that was exactly what she said?

Oh, no. Mr Brown may have been splitting grey hairs, but he clung to Mr Cameron's use of the word "now" for protection.

Ms Alexander's comments were all about exposing the "hollowness" of the SNP's pledge on independence and lack of haste in holding a referendum, he said, a comment which later led to a point of order from the SNP.

Mr Cameron decided to get personal. "This is the Prime Minister who went on American Idol with more make-up on than Barbara Cartland," he jested.

But how it backfired. He could barely be heard – and had to swallow his own laughter – when Labour MPs fired back at maximum decibels that he was one to talk about make-up.

And so it continued: Cameron firing the jibes about No10 meetings with Shakira and George Clooney – "Why does he not give up the PR and start being a PM?" – and Mr Brown returning with his familiar claim of Tory "slick salesmanship" and boasts about rising employment and fewer children living in poverty.

A score draw descended into a bore draw as Mr Brown droned about 42-day detention. The Prime Minister had managed to escape the heat – and turned the fire back on Ms Alexander.

Diary of the shambles that made Labour a laughing stock

SUNDAY

ON the Politics Show, Wendy Alexander is asked if she will support a referendum. She first says she won't make policy in a television studio, but, when pressed, adds: "Bring it on."

Later in the day, one of the Scottish Labour leader's aides confirms to The Scotsman that she now supports a referendum.

MONDAY

AN aide for Ms Alexander tells The Scotsman that she would like to have a referendum in 12 months on a simple "yes or no" question on independence. He suggests Labour may bring forward its own bill to force the issue.

Ms Alexander goes back on television and radio to confirm the policy change from opposing a referendum to supporting one. The SNP welcomes the U-turn.

TUESDAY

THE Labour group in Holyrood meets and agrees to support Ms Alexander's new policy. Duncan McNeil, the group's spokesman, says that all the MSPs agreed with the new policy, some were relieved and that they would support a referendum whenever it was called. Gordon Brown's spokesman says the issue is "a matter for the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland".

Ms Alexander gives a press conference and asks what the SNP is afraid of in bringing forward a bill for a referendum now. She says a referendum should happen as soon as possible.

An aide to Ms Alexander later adds that, ideally, a referendum would take place in 2009.

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservatives' leader, accuses Ms Alexander of betraying Scotland. The SNP insists it will stick to its manifesto promise of bringing forward a referendum bill in 2010.

YESTERDAY

AT Prime Minister's Questions (PMQs), Gordon Brown says that there should be a review of the situation after the Calman commission on devolution reports, contradicting Ms Alexander's statement on Tuesday.

Labour promises a statement, but neither Ms Alexander nor her main press officer comes out to talk to the press. The statement is issued after almost three hours but fails to reconfirm Ms Alexander's position of the previous few days. Aides say she has not changed her mind.

Ms Alexander speaks to Mr Brown after PMQs and her aide says the two agree, but a source admits that there is a split. Opponents say Ms Alexander's position is now untenable.

Alexander's statement in full yesterday

The Prime Minister and I are agreed about exposing the hollowness of the SNP's position, claiming they favour independence, yet wanting to hold a referendum in only 2010 or 2011.

David Cameron is wrong. His question showed his continuing lack of understanding of the process. The Prime Minister was right to say no-one was proposing a referendum at Westminster. The procedures of the Scottish Parliament mean that even if the SNP or anyone else introduced a Bill at Holyrood it could take up to 12 months to be considered.

As the Prime Minister said, the Calman commission has been set up to review devolution and we will continue to review its progress.

COMMENTS ON A CRISIS

"I think I'm going to join the Lib Dems."

Joke by Labour MSP

"I guess he (Gordon Brown] has lost control of the Scottish Labour Party." – Labour MSP

"There is a difference between them on that bit, but Wendy intends to stick to her guns."

A source close to Wendy Alexander commenting on her wanting a referendum as soon as possible and Mr Brown saying there should be a review when the Calman commission reports.

"At a stroke, Gordon Brown has destroyed her (Wendy Alexander's] leadership – and placed serious questions over his own."

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

"Anyone who listened to Wendy Alexander's remarks could be in no doubt that she meant a referendum should be held – and it shouldn't be delayed. To pretend otherwise is once again treating people like fools."

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, in a letter to Gordon Brown

"You do not understand this important issue relating to Scotland and the Union."

Gordon Brown, in reply to Mr Cameron's letter

So what now? The seven paths party can choose

DAVID MADDOX
SCOTTISH POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT


What can Labour now do to heal the rift? Several options are possible.

• Gordon Brown orders Wendy Alexander to resign. Technically, he does not have the power to sack her, but Mr Brown, as the man who made her, could probably finish her. This is unlikely, given that she is a friend and key ally. It would also allow the SNP to portray Mr Brown as the man who thwarted democracy.

• Ms Alexander quits. Again unlikely since she has shown no sign of being willing to relinquish her job in the wake of donation scandals and ineptitude in parliament. She and her aides are spinning that there is no disagreement.

• Labour MSPs tell Wendy to go. There are some who would like her job, but there are question marks over whether Labour MSPs have the backbone to wield the knife. Also, the referendum policy is no longer just Ms Alexander's but is that of the whole Labour group.

• Mr Brown quits. He has waited his whole life to be prime minister and will not give up without a fight. He may go only if a stalking-horse leadership candidate inflicts damage on his authority in the party.

• Carry on regardless. Despite Ms Alexander's position appearing to be untenable and Mr Brown's very shaky, this is still the most likely option, possibly leading to electoral disaster for Labour in 2010 and 2011.

• Ms Alexander's position moves full circle. This would involve her coming out against a referendum and would destroy any lasting credibility she has left.

• Mr Brown does a U-turn – This may yet happen, where he or his spin doctors come out and say that he was misunderstood and that he had backed Wendy all the time on a referendum question. However, he has historically shown little willingness to compromise in this way.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Still Believing,

08/05/2008 00:07:25
Oh what a surprise. Wendy going off message from London. Or is that London going off message from Wendy?

When will Scotland wake up and realise that Labour have only their own interests at heart, not the voters.

WAKE UP SCOTLAND. There is a choice beyond Labour.


( ps its not the SNP )
2

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 08/05/2008 00:11:46
However, a source close to Ms Alexander admitted to The Scotsman: "There is a difference between them (Ms Alexander and Mr Brown] on that bit (waiting for the Calman commission], but Wendy intends to stick to her guns."

LOL THAT source is probably some fat chain smoking hack sitting there making it all up, the reporting in this paper beggars belief, oh well over to the herald where the real reporting takes place..........
3

Dileas,

08/05/2008 00:13:24
If ever there was a demonstration of Gordon Brown's lack of moral fibre or duplicity or sheer ineptness, this has to be it. As for Wendy ...

I used to think that Westminster labour was fag-end government but now understand that it is totally lacking in any kind of ability, morality or even just sense of reality.

Now We all realise that it is just totally discredited, good only for imposing fines, bans and taxes on the very people it was elected to look out for.

The best thing that Gordon can do now for the electorate is call a General Election before he looks even more inept. The question is, could he even make a decision to go to the country?
4

Angus Ogg,

08/05/2008 00:17:37

WOW,

Watching Wendy Alexander, Gordon Brown and Ian Gray twitching through a nervous tv interview is like watching a slow motion car crash. The Scotsman has it right on the money - Labour is imploding in front of our very eyes.

Then Alex Salmond is interviewed. Cool, calm and collected, whilst Gordon Brewer looked nervous and sweaty. Last question to Alex by Brewer.... "have Labour now moved the SNP closer to their goal of Independence?"

Alex Salmond replied: "straight answer, yes".

Damn straight.

Ever since May 2007 Scottish politics has become very interesting again.

By the way, did anyone see Jack McConnell at Holyrood? Looked well, tanned, rested and a big smile. Maybe he is getting his old job back as leader of SLAB.

5

Danny Mather,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 00:20:12
Wendy is foolish and inept. Is this news? Pity more people don't watch Newsnight. Eck p!ssed it.
6

Alfred E. Neuman,

08/05/2008 00:20:32
Wendy Alexander is a moron. She even lacks the intelligence to feel shame for championing herself as a future leader of a nation.
7

Mr A Roy,

08/05/2008 00:20:50
It's getting like coronation street with these muppets, stay tuned for tomorrows thrilling episode!
8

bumpkin,

08/05/2008 00:22:17
This is more fun than the goon show!
Wendy, is she or isnt she?
Gordon, does he or doesnt he?

After thursday, Wendy,s penny has finally dropped that she is going to be unemployed fairly soon, along with Gordon Brown.
She has hit the panic button as the SNP soar in the polls and labour go into meltdown.
Couldnt happen to nicer people.
Mr Salmond ribs must be hurting from laughter by now.
9

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 08/05/2008 00:22:39
1* oh yes it is

It it wasn't bad enough Wendy Alexander coming up with this in the first place, to find out now, that she, the LEADER of the main opposition party at Holyrood doesn't even know how the rules work and didn't even think to check them out first, speaks volumes.

Scotland I trust you are watching all this.


What's really chilling is the thought that if things had been a little different last May, folk like her would be running things now!

BTW, Am I the only one who gets the impression that much of the fury directed at Wendy and her crew from journalists & the media etc is because after all the support they have given her, she has shown them up too, and that is the one thing they cannot forgive!

10

Hmm ...,

08/05/2008 00:23:01
... well, this gives the lie to claims that Scottish Labour is run from London.

It's clear now that Scottish Labour, like its English parent, is not run from anywhere! It just richochets from one mishap to the next debacle.

Fag end government? Don't flatter them!

Labour is terminally discredited in England as it has been in Scotland since the 2007 elections - coincidence? Don't delude yourself!
11

Colkitto,

River Clyde 08/05/2008 00:24:11
There is no difference between Gordon or Wendy, they totally agree."

– Lord George Foulkes

Brill ! That gave me a laugh. Not as big a laugh as Iain Grey on Newsnight though !!

12

EPS,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 00:25:28
Regardless of my political affiliation, one thing is clear to me. The SNP have, in practice, an enormous advantage in Scottish politics. Namely, they are the only major party in Scottish politics who are not fettered by political masters in London.
13

,

08/05/2008 00:27:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 00:32:18
#1 Aye yer right there, there is a choice beyond Labour, and it ain't any of the Unionist parties!!!!

What a shambles, how can anyone ever believe anything this pair of clowns say ever again.

It increasingly looks like both the UUendy and Gordo are members of the 'Duck and Cover' school of politics!!

I see that Gorbals Mick has tried to close the door on charges of Gordo 'misleading the house' over the SNP's timing of any referendum on Scottish Independence. But he may not have the power to do that!

Such a Parcel of Rogues indeed.
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 00:34:06
12 EPS
Good comment, on the money.

Furthermore, it's precisely because they are not fettered by political masters in London that they are making a better job of governing Scotland. The only London distraction they have is the Labour Government's scandalous act of with-holding monies due to Scotland. Disgraceful.
16

Guga II,

Rockall 08/05/2008 00:35:23
If nothing else, this total farce proves the point that London controls the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch).

It also proves the point that they, and their political masters in London, are liars and charlatans, and are not fit to manage a kindergarten sweetie jar let alone run a government.

I notice that our Unionistas, like AM Squared and similar, are very noticeable by their absence over the past day or two. Even they can't lie their way out of this farce.
17

Highland Mighty,

08/05/2008 00:36:30
One thing they all have in common?

They are ALL Scots!

We're all dooooomed!!
18

Highland Mighty,

08/05/2008 00:38:48
19. We have jobs and lives, you know!

We really do have better things to do than blitz the Scotsman and Herald websites, all day, every day and under multiple usernames!

LOL!
19

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 00:40:06
14 A Friend of Alternative Mighty Mario Voltaire,08/05/2008 00:31:58

Like what?

Annabel may be the best 'leader' that the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party has had in the last few years, but she is still a Tory, and the people of Scotland have had it up to the back teeth with Torie governments, we have been ruled by the Tories for the last 90 years, and they haven't done us much good at all.

If Big Bella really wants to help Scotland she will back the SNP bill on a referendum on the future governance of Scotland, if she doesn't then she'll just be another 'also ran'.
20

Senga Jean,

08/05/2008 00:44:53
I cannot find it in me to see this as amusing. I once respected the Labour Party and believed that they defended the people of Scotland against the excesses of capitalism. They cannot do that if they have and continue to make fools of themselves. I think this fiasco will hasten the day of Independence for Scotland. Why? Because I actually do listen to what people are saying.
21

Senga Jean,

08/05/2008 00:46:58
Highland Mighty is NOT Scots then. HMMM
22

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 08/05/2008 00:47:18
It's not very often that I am stuck for something to say, but this labour party mess is really amazing, are these people really in power governing the Dis united Kingdom? What a shambles, anyone ever voting for that SHOWER OF IDIOTS in the future should be escorted off the premises in a white coat.
23

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 00:47:50
21
AM2 admitted he didn't have a job.Kimba has a part-time one.Niko goes shopping to Tescos a lot and babysits his grandbairn.
Looks like you must be the one with a job.
24

FrancesP,

08/05/2008 00:49:28
#21. Highland Mighty - "We have jobs and lives, you know!

We really do have better things to do than blitz the Scotsman and Herald websites, all day, every day and under multiple usernames!"

Well said. You just blitz the Scotsman website all day, every day under the same username. So that's totally different.

LOL!
25

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 00:51:41
27
You "scooped" my next post...
26

Yeti,

08/05/2008 00:54:29
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b00b97dk.shtml?q=newsnight&start=1&scope=iplayersearch&go=Find+Programmes&version_pid=b00b97cg

enjoy :)
27

ochone,

Sauchie,Clack's 08/05/2008 00:54:42
If anyone else has read the devastating article on Wendy's latest blunder over on the Times site by Lorraine Davidson, could they tell me, (if they know), if that is the same one who used to be the director of communications for the Labour party in Scotland?


If it is, then I think I am right in saying that she was also responsible for Jack McConnell’s biog'

I wonder if a few debts are being repaid in the grand old Labour style?

It’s well worth a read anyway?
28

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 08/05/2008 00:54:49
Newsnight was AMAZING tonight. Superb performance by Brewer - at one point Iain Gray was reduced to helpless stammering and looking around desperately in panic for an exit. I won't have any allegations of bias, he asked both sides the hard questions that you'd want asked, the difference is that Salmond's answers were direct, relevant and assured, while Labour were evasive, twitchy and just came across as plain dishonest. Brewer's exasperation by the end was obviously real.
29

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 08/05/2008 00:57:38
What is really chilling is to think that if things had been a bit different last May these clowns would have been running Scotland............right into the ground.

Night, night all.
30

Royster,

08/05/2008 00:57:56
Hooray! Gordon, please close Holyrood at the stroke of a pen. It's always been a dog's breakfast, cack-handed and ill-thought out. How can you have 2 parliaments in one country?
31

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/05/2008 00:59:29
Highland

Nothing to say of any substance again Mr Mighty?

What can you say I suppose? It's all a bit of a unionist mess.
32

karinxxx,

08/05/2008 01:00:42
35 yes i always thought england shouldnt have bothe the lords and westminster.
33

karinxxx,

08/05/2008 01:02:13
anyway just finished watching iain grey on newsnight i thougt he was going to start jerking his head to the side to go along with the eye twitching thing. comical really comical. brewer was totally exasperated.
34

,

08/05/2008 01:11:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Richard Lionheart,

08/05/2008 01:17:43
Well done Wendy. More of what we have come to expect of you.

Vote, Iain Gray for Leader of Scottish Labour.
36

,

08/05/2008 01:18:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

,

08/05/2008 01:18:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

karinxxx,

08/05/2008 01:24:01
Labour implodes

is this the hootsman?
39

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 01:27:40
47
Aye Karin.Great eh?
40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 01:30:43
She Looked,..'WELL EMBARRASSED' on her TV interview,..

'POOR SOUL'!
41

,

08/05/2008 01:31:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

Edward,

08/05/2008 01:33:52
What I find amazing apart from Labour going into complete meltdown. Is the languague used by Labour
Its not about talking up and puting forwarding a possitive arguement for retaining the union. Its all about putting the SNP down, attacking an basically telling lies on the way.
43

Edward,

08/05/2008 01:36:40
Watched Newsnight Scotland, thought Iain Gray was starting to panic as his composure changed and started to glance to the side looking for the exit, just classic
44

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 01:37:20
41
LOL Sweating, stuttering, swivel eyed circumvention.
45

Guga II,

Rockall 08/05/2008 01:43:21
#24 Senga Jean.

Highland Midgie, like Royster and AM Squared, is not Scottish, that is patently obvious. The fact that they try and disguise their actual origin is simple deception.
46

Conan the Librarian™,

08/05/2008 01:50:00
55
And does he have a job?
I have sometimes wondered, HM being so obnoxious, is either a SNP plant or a hootsman journo making sure the independence posts get plenty hits.

Or he's just a
47

Matt there,

somewhere 08/05/2008 01:52:25
Not very good. 0 out of 10, Wendy.

As for Gordon? He is into minus figures now...
48

bill inch,

EDINBURGH 08/05/2008 01:56:56
She should have gone after the jersey debacle. now a pathetic attemp to reengage while at the same time dumping Brown as i said pathetic
49

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 08/05/2008 02:11:53

Just watched the Labour spokesman on Newsnight Scotland.

Oh dear.
50

,

08/05/2008 02:17:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Canada,

southampton 08/05/2008 02:22:45
PLEASE COME BACK JACK, ALL IS FORGIVEN.
52

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/05/2008 04:02:05
Could this all be a cunning plot by Brown to sink the SNP's recruiting sergeant?

Did he tell Wendy he would back her, only to leave out in no mans land with no covering fire?

His minions would perplexed if he had openly tried to remove, who has always been a loyal henchman.

Is this actually Browns way of riding himself of Wendy in the hopes of getting someone more competent to lead Scottish Labour?

Scottish Politics is certainly a lot more interesting since Sunday.
53

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/05/2008 04:25:30
Wendy is finished.

Not only has she completely embarrased herself, but she has done it by embarking on a strategy that can be completed. Did nobody in her team realize that she can't submit a bill on a subject that has already been put to the house for study?

Her biggest mistake has been not consulting her Unionist allies. In a parliament whose very nature is coalition government, will any other party leader ever trust Wendy again?

Don't think Annabel Goldie will. Shes old school.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
54

Navvy,

08/05/2008 05:05:12
#23 Sad, Sad, Senga

I never respected the Labour Party though they have had some worthy members, very few of late

Broon and Wendy - both untenable as are their parties old Nu or whateffer
55

innesm,

Austin, Texas 08/05/2008 05:13:38
What would be Wendy's role in an independent Scotland? What would any of the Unionist party's role be? Campaigning to rejoin the Union?
56

terry osser,

morden 08/05/2008 05:28:12
the labor mob have run england right into the ground
57

democracy,

Scottish Borders 08/05/2008 05:43:54
#1 still believing, you said, WAKE UP SCOTLAND. There is a choice beyond Labour. ( ps its not the SNP )

So are you saying to us that it's one of the 16 seat parties? Yer havin a laff arent ye??
58

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/05/2008 05:47:54
Does anyone know if it is possible to watch First Ministers Questions over the Internet?

Today should be pure Dynamite. Almost worth the expence of flying back to Scotland just to watch.
59

Pilrig.,

Livingston 08/05/2008 06:15:22
dear oh dear oh dear
60

Ubi,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 06:33:49
The SNP surely doesn't want to drive Wendy Alexander out of her job? Ms Alexander is much more valuable left in there digging for as long as possible.

Nicola Sturgeon might want to reign back from all out attack and try a little public sympathy, Labour party obviously going through a period of difficulty, not for me to get involved in Labour party power struggles, wish Wendy well da da da...
61

Normal!,

Highland 08/05/2008 06:53:12
Motormouth strikes again!!!
62

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 08/05/2008 06:57:31
#1 SNP is the only party with Scots and Scotland at heart.
Thornhill allotments rule
63

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 07:04:29
Wendy Alexander couldn't run a fancy dress party, never mind any political party.

She is unemployable.

My God, Scotland needs to run its own affairs, Unionism has done nothing for the people of Scotland except hold them back in poverty.
64

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

08/05/2008 07:12:48
Salmond needs 3 years to have a national conversation on independence. 3 years? And he supposedly gets straight to the point!

What do we want? "Independence"
When do we want it?
"Am no really sure, but no too soon".
65

steve 1511,

aberdeen 08/05/2008 07:12:56
you cannot believe a word that comes out of broons mouth,you cannot believe a word that comes out of wendy the eejits mouth,the labour party corruption at every level
66

Phillip,

08/05/2008 07:23:29
Wow, I didn't think it was possible for a major political party that has run a nation for this many years to manage to destroy itself, it's positions, and it's credibility quite this fast. Yet Labour has manage to do it in under a week!

I'm beginning to wonder if Wendy & Broon aren't really SNP moles who infiltrated Labour and worked their way up the ranks for the sole purpose of wrecking the party just as the Scottish people are ready to move forward with independence.
67

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 07:24:43
#41 Wardog

Ha ha ha Iain Gray's chin must afford his toes plenty of shade. I like where this is goin'! Giggidy, giggidy, gig-gi-dy! Good to know he speaks Portuguese, I suspect he'll be spending a lot of time on the Algarve, when he's turfed out at the next Holyrood election.

I'm a bit like Scotindy, in that I'm stumped as to what daily scorn to pour on the WENDY and Broon this morning. It's as if I'm all spoffed out...They've done it all on their own. Not even the venerable Hootsman have been able to spin this DISASTER positively.

All that's left are the few remaining dribbling mentalists like Mighty to defend the indefensible.


Ah a day on the beach beckons. The joy of a sunny fresher, brighter, better Scotland.
68

Richardinho,

08/05/2008 07:27:24
The hapless Wendy Alexander is a very fitting metaphor for unionist Scotland. The fault for this is entirely her doing because she failed to consult Gordon Brown before expressing her own opinion. If you opt for subsevience, then you must be subservient. And that means if you show the slightest bit of indepedent thought which goes against the line from the centre, then you should expect to be slapped down and humiliated as Wendy has been.

69

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 07:31:47
Oh before I forget,

"You just handed Alex Salmond all the cards, the card table and the casino"

Gordon Brewer Newsnicht Scotland 7/5/2008 to Iain 'Quagmire' Gray

70

Richardinho,

08/05/2008 07:33:00
'The alternative to vote for is federalism, not nationalism.'

No, that is the weak, wishy-washy option.
71

brownlie,

08/05/2008 07:33:39
83 Rules

Yes, us unionists have considered federalism but we did not think a dozen or so votes would make any difference.
72

ClosetJambo,

08/05/2008 07:44:08
Labour are indeed imploding.

Wendy will cling on as long as she can but when Broon goes, so does that conniving little weasel Doogie Alexander. Once Bendy's brother isn't in the playground to look after her it's just a matter of time.

There is only one party capable and willing to defend the interests of people living in Scotland and that, without a doubt, is the SNP.
73

JimC,

Kilmarnock 08/05/2008 07:48:51
73
I think your on the wrong page mate, or is that planet??
74

conservative,

Fife 08/05/2008 07:55:18
Labour revealed for what it is - no leadership, no policies and no future. Once the older generation of die-hard card-carrying Labourites dies out so will this ineffective party. The only question is how long it will take the country to recover from their spendthrift bumbling.
75

brownlie,

08/05/2008 08:02:14
92 conservative

Sad but true - glad to see that we've still got one conservative left in Fife to uphold our unionist cause.
76

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 08:07:49
Did anyone see New Labour Sleaze and Corruption MP Jimmy Hood on SKY last night saying both Comrade Broon and Red Wendy were right. Came across as a complete idiot. Then started getting aggressive when pushed on the matter.
I'm glad I don't have to clean his cage oot!!!!
77

far enough away from skotland to feel safe...,

paris 08/05/2008 08:23:29
Watching the Labour party isn't just a spectator sport as Big Eck says, more like a blood sport (do you feel sorry for the vermin as they're chased into the undergrowth?)...
78

Phil C,

08/05/2008 08:24:26
I'm no fan of Labour or unionism, but I don't really see how Bendy's position is untenable. She's always been a bit dim and dishonest, and an asset to the SNP. She seemed to be discovering the art of honesty and democracy with her recent mouthings...and what a mouthing she's got!

The person who's position is untenable is Oor Gordy, sticking his big conk into affairs that should be left to his Scottish party. He is standing in the way of a completely democratic and transparent referendum as proposed by the SNP and seconded (with a twist) by Labour in Scotland. Unfortunately Brown is also a huge asset to Salmond, but go he must.

As for the undemocratic shysters that go by the Tory/Fibdem labels, their position has been untenable for years. They could go some way to redeeming themselves by backing the SNP's referendum and forgetting about the wastrels that are Labour and their irresponsible squabbles.
79

North Enclosure ER,

HUNGERFORD 08/05/2008 08:26:14
#1 Must be the Liberal Democrats or The Greens it certianly isn't the Tories - Scotland will never elect a Conservative Government.
80

Boy Wonder,

08/05/2008 08:27:57
Nu Labour has been and continues to spontaneously combust and implode every day since they lost the election last May. Over the border, they just ain't up to the job!
81

inoui,

Fife 08/05/2008 08:30:43
I feel sorry for our neighbours in the south. The political choices are dire, full of confusion and bickering. At least Scotland has a party interested in Scotland and not jumping every time Westminster farts.
82

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 08:31:12
Watch FMQ, "the seal clubbing" today live at -
http://www.holyrood.tv/index.asp
You can also see last weeks duffing of Wendy by Nicola Sturgeon on -
http://www.holyrood.tv/library.asp?iPid=3§ion=30&title=First+Minister%27s+Questions
83

Ken S.,

Reading 08/05/2008 08:34:32
G.Broon:
"Which way did they go,? Where are they?
I must find them -- I am their leader"
84

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 08:35:18
It's very cruel to intrude on private grief.
85

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 08/05/2008 08:36:42
#81
"I'm beginning to wonder if Wendy & Broon aren't really SNP moles who infiltrated Labour and worked their way up the ranks for the sole purpose of wrecking the party just as the Scottish people are ready to move forward with independence."

Well you are half right on that one.

Gordon Brown was kidnapped in 1967 by a crack SNP snatch squad led by Sir Sean Connery. After playing the super spy James Bond in a number of films Sir Sean wanted a go at the real thing.

The other members of the team where the famous Stone of Scone snatch squad, Ian Hamilton, Gavin Vernon, Kay Matheson and Alan Stuart.

The cover story was that Brown was receiving treatment for a detached retina that was caused by being kicked in the head while playing rugby at Kircaldy High School.

He was in fact given experimental brain washing therapy by Doctor Timothy Leary.

He has since been known at SNP Headquarters as the Kircaldy Candidate.

Wendy Alexander and Her Brother are actually working for the other side.

They where recruited into the British-American Project, a secret CIA front organization designed to ensure that "the special relationship" is never broken.
The project has received its funding from far right oil baron J. Howard Pew. The project was launched by Ronald Reagen at the behest of Rupert Murdoch.

You see now that Wendy is in effect trying to bring about the collapse of Gordon Brown before he has the chance to bring about the total financial collapse of England and Scotlands subsequent departure.
86

Montford's Jaicket,

08/05/2008 08:39:30
#65 KampungHighlander said: "In a parliament whose very nature is coalition government, will any other party leader ever trust Wendy again?"

With you on that statement KH. In fact, it's stating the obvious that the Labour group in Holyrood have not yet cottoned on to the state of play in our Pariament. Whereas the SNP have their act together and are seeking consensus government for their policies - with any of the other parties - Wendy & co still have the notion that might is right and they can push and bully to get their way.

Guess which of the two methods is a) working and b) best meeting the needs of the nation? Consensus and contention - another 2 words that NewLab have got confused over the meaning of; like socialist and socialite.
87

Rickie,

08/05/2008 08:39:58
There's an oppertunity now for labour to be asked that if they want a referendum by 2009 will they have the courage of their convictions to let the people speak and hold a general election at the same time?

That may be taking a liberty with the words "courage" & "convictions". First one they don't have, and the second they've managed to escape for no, as yet, explained reason.
88

St Andrew,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 08:40:05
This has been a very bold move by Wendy and she should be applauded for it. She has called the SNPs bluff. The would like a while longer to encourage disputes with Westminster and breed discontent.
Its a shame that Gordon Brown is such a weak and over cautious man. This has exposed Gordons weakness and highlighted Wendy's boldness.
So lets get on with it. If the SNP believe that the majority of Scotland want independence then why delay.....unless they know that Scotland is not ready yet to fly solo. In which case be honest and say so instead of attacking Wendy for suggesting doing something that they have blustered about doing for too long.
89

Sparky,

Hamilton 08/05/2008 08:42:22
Says it all i think...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKdxprjVsnk
90

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging Around 08/05/2008 08:43:12
#103 KH - so you're saying that, as operatives of the British American Project, the Alexander sisters are a pair of BAP's?
91

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging on. 08/05/2008 08:44:34
#105 Ricky - it's well known that none of the Scottish Labour group have any ahem... convictions. Not yet anyway...
92

Montford's Jaicket,

08/05/2008 08:45:16
Sorry - that was Rickie, not Ricky. No offence meant.
93

Phil C,

08/05/2008 08:46:55
#83 Rules

You and your wee pal who used to be a NUN do seem a bit stuck on federalism. It's a bit tiresome and it's irrelevant. You're just hiding your unionism behind a federal mask, unless of course you're the NUN guy who's neither a unionist nor a nationalist like. I'd be happy to have Scotland run on federal lines, with more say for each of our very different regions. It's not an either/or situation.

First steps first though and we need to put Scotland back on the map as an independent country. Then we can do what the people want, for good or bad, richer or poorer...!! I personally think we can achieve so much more as our own proud country, instead of some poxy region of England.

94

cnoc nagers,

Heilans 08/05/2008 08:47:32
Not even the wendy fan club which is the Scotsman can spin this in a positive way. I really feel sorry for Gordon I always was a supporter of him and thought he would do very well. I don't feel sorry for Wendy, I never thought that she could be trusted as a politician. However in both cases,it is sad to see someone apparently promoted beyond their abilities. Time for both to do the right thing and 'retire'
95

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 08:49:23
Wendy took an illegal donation because she didn't understand the "complicated" legal position on political donations.
She said that she would introduce her own bill for an Independence Referendum but she can't as doesn't understand the procedure for private members bills in the Scottish Parliament.
What must the people who have taken advice from her in the past be thinking now ? Maybe they would have been better off reading the source information for themselves.
96

shivago8,

livingston 08/05/2008 08:49:40
Scotland the laughing stock of the world,the political circus wi aw the monkeys fighting and trying to stuff each other.
Scotland must break away from this labour circus before we become a BANANA REPUBLIC
97

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 08:50:38
As one Westminster political commentator explained: the question of a Referendum on Scottish Independence is rarely discussed Down South. The vast majority of English MP's are completely indifferent to the subject!

It only hit the headlines when David Cameron embarrassed Gordon Brown at PMQ about the lack of communication between him and Alexander about this proposal

Once again, the Nationalists win publicity at the expense of Labour!
98

thistle do,

Here n there 08/05/2008 08:51:16
You couldn't make it up. When you think it couldn't get any worse......it gets worse.
The brother flacked up the election, the sister just flacks up. The many unsung heroes of the once great party of equality must be so depressed by the whole mess. But they know the real damage that the Tories made to working people and we know they'll no doubt hit working people again. Gordon for the sake of the party get a grip. Getting A Campbell back might be a good idea even if you have to swallow pride. It's too important.
99

Buckfastleigh,

Trelawneys grave 08/05/2008 08:53:42
While they haver...Now is your chance go for it when it comes. You have waited 400 years for this! Make sure you do assert your Caledonian will.
100

capy,

edinburgh 08/05/2008 08:55:04
you could not make this up. always thought ian grey was a steady pair of hands,until last night.as a former labour party member i cannot belive my eyes. i think they are finished.john smith must be turning in his grave.alexander and brown are a disgrace to the labour movement. go and go now!! simon pia get bk to 107!!
101

Truely English,

08/05/2008 08:57:05
What a mess the Labour Party are in both in Scotland and England. Thankfully, the cultural bonds that tie both Scotland and England together, transcend politics and make us the strong nation we have been for more than 600 years.
102

Phil C,

08/05/2008 09:02:50
#120 Torilly English

That's a cracker!
103

NBJT,

North Berwick 08/05/2008 09:05:57
Every day more and more people are realising that independence IS the way forward for Scotland.

It is time to start making our own decisions in relation to the money produced by us and found in Scotland.

The Labour party has shown that it is an insular party without a leader either at Westminster or Holyrood.

To all those people who do not have confidence in themselves or their country.......WAKE UP WE CAN DO IT!
104

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/05/2008 09:06:10
#14 Friend

Annabel did have some credibility until she blindly signed up to the Wendy Commission. For any leader to put their trust and career in someone as shallow and duplicitous as Wendy Alexander shows extremely poor judgement.

I'm not sure Annabel will ever recover her reputation after this. I think she knows it too, judging by her barely concealed anger whilst being interviewed yesterday.
105

Gruithainn,

Arbroath 08/05/2008 09:06:35
The disarray among Labour = deep joy.
The disrespect & disdain towards Scots & Scotland = deeply depressing
106

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 08/05/2008 09:06:52
#73 "Wendy's wrong-footed both Brown and Salmond. Not difficult, granted; but neither has answers for her.
What do we want? Independence!
When do we want it? Er, um, och, well, yer see, Oh mah heids nippin'."


For some inexplicable reason you seem to be almost as deaf as Brown and Alexander. The answer that's been given clearly and repeatedly over the last few days, including by Alex Salmond on Newsnight last night, is

"When do we want it? Autumn 2010, exactly as we've been saying for the last two years, and as it says in the manifesto on which we were elected to power by the Scottish people."
107

Nikostratos,

08/05/2008 09:11:45
Its very simple

Referendum.yes no yes no yes no yes no Referendum.yes no yes no yes no yes no Referendum.yes no yes no yes no yes no Referendum.yes no yes no yes no yes no.

you said yes no i didn't..yes you did. i not did so
108

Dr. James Wilkie,

Pszczyna, Poland 08/05/2008 09:12:08
I am continually astonished at the inability of politicians, and Labour politicians in particular, to see the issue of Scotland's constitutional status in terms of long-term developments. Any businessman would restructure his firm in the light of changed conditions, so why should a country's governmental system not be subject to the same rules?

The fact is that the Union has served its day - well, badly or indifferently according to one's view - and now requires to be reconsidered in the light of vastly altered conditions. It has become redundant and a hindrance from the point of view of one of the partners. That trend has paralleled the decline of the British Empire, and can be traced as a rising graph line since the early 1800s (the 1820 banner in the National Museum in Edinburgh states "Scotland free or a desert"). With the last vestiges of Britishness disappearing, the graph line is now rising more steeply, the national movement is rampant in every sense, and the SNP is only the political expression of the trend, not its cause.

It is a measure of the intellectual inferiority of Ms. Alexander, Mr. Brown and the Labour Party in general that they have proved incapable of seeing the issue in the light of long-term strategic trends, and persistently regard the demand for change as an aberration from normality. However, this movement is not going to be put into reverse by any political chicanery. Scotland is going to be constitutionally independent in due course, and efforts should be more productively directed towards working out a suitable system of cooperation with its partner countries after that event. I am predicting this, and not advocating it, because I don't need to.

109

Liz,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 09:12:47
I just hope that the choice in Scotland is not simply between the Labour and SNP parties.

The Tories and Lib Dems have alot to offer and both are infinately superior to that current excuse of a Labour Party. How about a SNP and Tory coelition? (I wish I knew how to spell that!? :)) Take indepence off the agenda for a few years and allow them to work together for the good of the Country.
110

Dbxsteve,

West Kilbride 08/05/2008 09:14:41
As a life long labour supporter.....I feel as though I am watching an old friend lying on their death bed.....life slowly slipping away.....a shadow of their former self....and fading fast.

There is no hope for Labour now....let's hope the end comes as quickly and painlessly as possible....

....but as one chapter closes....another begins.....and I sense that the SNP have finally come of age.
111

scottish person,

paisley 08/05/2008 09:15:00
Labour have not imploded, they are just talking the same p**h as usual
112

Alberto.,

08/05/2008 09:15:38
Is it a freak of nature - or waht?

Every time I see a picture of Wendy Alexander 'performing' one of her rantings, I immediately also see the image of 'Vigelands' statue of 'Angry Boy' which is exhibited in Frogner Park im Oslo, Norway!

It is remarkably so like her in action, and clearly incicative of what can happen - if the warning 'Watch it!' is not carefully adhered to.
113

,

08/05/2008 09:18:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
114

Nikostratos,

08/05/2008 09:19:50
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/08/scotland.labour


"In today's Guardian interview, Alex Salmond is understandably cock-a-hoop. He talks confidently about his prospects in a referendum, reassuring voters who do not yet trust him by suggesting that independence need not mean separation from England. Scotland, he says, might even remain part of a wider, looser United Kingdoms"

Did Alex say that and what do the Drones say about that option?
115

Norman C.,

london 08/05/2008 09:21:03
Ode to Scotland's plight:

Och, wee loddie in yon cankerous muttie,

Yure plickett doon upon the glossie noddie.

Sure let ma blottie tak yure dune wi a narra trottie,

And smacket ure manlings upon their pallet bottie.

Oh for shame, for shame.
116

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 09:22:59
WENDY MUST STAY
WENDY MUST STAY
WENDY MUST STAY

It's a laugh a minute, especially seeing the Labour numpty getting stitched up like a kipper on Newsnight Scotland last night! LOL
117

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 09:24:09
His Lardship, Fatty Foolkes is unusually quiet just now. I would have thought he'd have been on every TV programme supporting Red Wendy and Comrade Broon - but no, nothing!!

Have the TV channels stopped paying appearance money and expenses????
118

Dooogie,

Highland 08/05/2008 09:25:23
Bring on Independence - it's time England stopped depending on Scotland to provide huge megabucks for them to squander on things like the millenium dome farce and trident - which if ever used, would spell the end of countless humans for decades.
119

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 09:27:01
137 AJ, i agree, i can't remeber the last time we got so many laughs from politics, this is priceless. give her her own talk show.
120

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 09:28:14
One thing for certain now is that there is no such thing as a "Scottish" Labour Party, whatever way they juggle the name.
Alex Salmond makes decisions and for them is answerable to the people of Scotland.
Wendy Alexander makes a decision without consulting her masters in London Labour and the roof falls in on her, irrespective of whether or not her decision is good for the people of Scotland.
121

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 09:31:04
If you want to see what is filling the papers in a small independent country this morning why don't you have a look at this site - http://www.norwaypost.no/
122

Alan B,

08/05/2008 09:31:06
where do labour find them: Ian Grey was a joke on newsnight.

Wendy has made the correct decision to back a referendum. Problem is she has gone about it in a dreadful way. Arguing against it for her whole time in office, and expecting the whole of labour to uturn with her.

In some ways i think she is getting her own back on brown. Brown embarrassed her over the calman commission by calling it a review and refusing members to that commission that would give it credibility. Browne and cairns tried to sideline her and ridiculed her constitutional discussion during her corruption charges.
123

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 09:35:17
Alan B#144,

I got the feeling Ian Gray picked the short straw last night!LOL He didnae look too pleased tae be there!

I bet wee wendy is right aff his Xmas card list too!!:)
124

Melly,

Sussex 08/05/2008 09:38:09
#66 Traquir
Thanks for the link.
`scuse me while I puke !!!!!
125

Senga Jean,

08/05/2008 09:40:55
#135 He means we do not go further than Canada .Australia or New Zealand. We may still have the Queen as head of state because in constitutional terms it solves the issues an Executive President might create. It is a cogent policy and the power remains with the FREE people of Scotland. We choose the EC or the Euro etc if we wish. You do not make your path difficult. Scotland will be so much better Independent and so will England and Wales.
126

Miss H,

08/05/2008 09:41:01
Much as I appreciate how screamingly funny all of this it does illustrate a serious problem. The major Opposition party in Scotland is failing miserably in its duty. Even as an SNP member, not to say a diehard cybernat, I do think it is important that any government is held to account and their actions scrutinised. The only party that is actually doing that is the Tory Party.

Labour has gone into total meltdown and the Lib Dems, having made fools of themselves over the whole Trumptown farce, now seem to be lying low.

Both parties need to get their act together fast. New leadership is required.
127

Buckfastleigh,

Venny Bridges 08/05/2008 09:41:29
While they haver...and haver. Now is your chance to rise and go for it. You have waited 400 years for that referendum; so be sure you don't hesitate and have to wait as long as the Britanni have had to for King Arthur to return south of Hadrian's Wall.
128

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

Royal Mile Girvan 08/05/2008 09:47:28
For once Wendy has got it right, this is Scotland, we dont have conversations that last 10 minutes never mind go on and on saying the same things for years, lets cut to the chase and lance the SNP governments plook, lets have a referendum this year with a straight Yes or No for independance, thats what the people want, is the Salmond feart to take the worm? Or if the people dont want independance and the issue is dropped he would only have horse racing to talk about the king of bore.
129

Senga Jean,

08/05/2008 09:48:08
#143 Thanks for the link . Norway is doing what Scotland should be doing and would feel better about itself. I think some of the social problems in Scotland occur because we are subservient and lack belief in ourselves. We should be all we could be and that starts with INDEPENDENCE.
130

Senga Jean,

08/05/2008 09:49:35
#150 I agree. ITS TIME.
131

James.com,

Clifton 08/05/2008 09:51:37
What is happening in Scotland is not about independence but about the future dominant political party.The SNP will be seen as competent and better able to represent the interests of Scotland both as MSPs and MPs. Independence is possible, but becoming the natural Party of Govt. is certain. They will start to attract the votes of Unionists too. Salmon understands this.
132

Rickie,

08/05/2008 09:55:04
#111 - Montford's Jaicket, no worries :D

Glad someone got the play on words with convictions.

Pity it's still covered up, especially Browns, what was it again about £680,000, all covered up as should they all be. Then buried in peat.
133

Union is Best,

08/05/2008 09:55:14
150. At last! The Unionist fight back! I have been sitting here all night passing Highland Mighty tissues and he sobbed hysterically.

We Unionists may be looking swivel-eyed and shell shocked today, having conceded the referendum argument to Salmond, and then botched it by having Gordon slap us down from London, but we will, erm, sniff sniff, sob, rally.... Backward the Union!
134

Alec M,

Falkirk 08/05/2008 09:55:27
#94 Jimmy the Pie : I too watched Jimmie the Hoodie on Sky TV in horror. A tirade of lies delivered at full (fool?) volume. I think it passes as democracy in Labour's ranks.
135

Thistledhu,

Fife 08/05/2008 10:00:04
just goes to prove how much freedom of action a Labour administration in holyrood had/would have.
The moment the sopposed leader of scotish labour decides on a course of action gordon brown of (whatever nationality he claims to be this week) slaps it down
and wendy goes into hideing.
the whole point of devolution is for scotish politicians take desisions based on the will of the scotish electorate not labour party westminster manderins
136

Arfur,

08/05/2008 10:02:57
A Labour member said - "(Alex] Salmond now has to explain why he is not going to bring a bill for a referendum forward immediately."

He doesn't have to do a chuffing thing. The date has always been 2010. Why should he bring it forward cos Labour says so. These guys still think they can call the shots.

By the way, how did this get past the editor?
137

Angus McChatterer,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 10:03:35
I've long believed that, back in the 1970s, the SNP encouraged its brightest and best to join the Labour party and bring it down from within. It's clear now that Bendy Wendy was one of these moles. I hope that in the future independent Scotland, our children learn about this brave woman who put nation before self and self-respect by acting the role of complete inept daftie so convincingly and so consistently in order to bring down the evil union.
138

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 10:05:28
143# Auld Twa

Thanks for the link. Interesting that the state owned Statoil are involved in new exploration offshore Angola, and the Ekofisk field in the North Sea being further developed. Not even a hint of anyone saying "Why bother, it's all going to run out anyway."
What's the value of Norway's sovereign wealth fund now?
£500 billion and rising? Eat your heart out Scotland.
Go take a look at what you could have won.
139

Dbxsteve,

West Kilbride 08/05/2008 10:05:53
Why don't we have a mini ballot here....

All those in favour of independence say AYE!
140

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 10:08:09
Caption for the photo:

"Who put that damn plate glass window in my way?"

Any more?
141

Thistledhu,

08/05/2008 10:10:21
Caption for the photo:

Help!!!!
142

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 10:10:56
"...the Prime Minister, directly contradicted her..."

"...insisted that she and the Prime Minister were in agreement..."

Yep! That sounds about right for labour!

Spin, lies, more spin, more lies. Then assume everyone is an idiot.
143

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 10:11:36
Is there ever a picture of the Wendy that looks other than like a bulldog licking vinegar (sic: tae pass the censor) off a nettle?

Worry not dubya, not all spirals end in oblivion. Keep up the good work and we should see this generation bring the Union to its proper, timely conclusion.
144

Doh,

08/05/2008 10:12:44
Reminds me of the old joke ...

Voter, "I have got half a mind to vote Labour."

Canvasser, "That is all you will need."
145

John PM,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 10:14:07
"Matters were made worse when it emerged that Labour could not, as Ms Alexander had said it might do, bring forward a bill to have a referendum and force the SNP's hand. This is because the SNP has already tabled a white paper and indicated that a bill will be brought forward before the election."

How did it emerge? It emerged when Alex Salmond told John Snow on C4 news that Wendy was so utterly incompetent that she didn't understand the Standing Orders of the parliament! Ha ha ha!
146

Dbxsteve,

West Kilbride 08/05/2008 10:14:13
#162 Caption for the photo

".... do you think these lips look good on me or should I give them back to Sylvester Stallone's mum?".
147

Awake,

North Lanarkshire 08/05/2008 10:23:41
Another omnipresent manufactured media myth currently doing the rounds broken record style is there is insufficient support for independence in Scotland. Quite clever stuff by the deviously manipulating Establishment and its tethered simpleton media. A referendum right now would result in a landslide YES to independence for Scotland. A fair and free referendum mind, free from any MI5 or MI6 entanglements. We all know it would be yes! SLAB are already whinging about how the question would be worded? What are ‘they’ afraid of? A yes/no vote is simplicity itself. 2010 isn’t soon enough to remove the parasitic criminal self-serving self-promoting and self-important vile SLAB entities attempting to masquerade as humans.
148

JEA,

Montrose 08/05/2008 10:31:46
Wendy Alexander has for once outfoxed Alex Salmond – yes, a new first. Let’s have a straight yes or no vote ASAP, and not have the SNP gain independence via the back door; as they would prefer, rather than a straight contest.
The UK is currently embroiled in a back door treaty for the European Union and one would have thought what Wendy Alexander is suggesting at least moves us away from and shenanigans of this sort; albeit her boss has agreed the Lisbon Treaty!
The Tories in Scotland have a great chance, for once, to align with the Labour on the vote for independence and they should take the opportunity to put Alex Salmond and the SNP in their place.
149

Anointed,

Aberdeen 08/05/2008 10:33:04
How can we expect a Scottish referendum when we have been denied a European one? If Scotland wanted to be free of Europe I might listen until then it is clear Salmond is pursuing Europe's agenda of divide and conquer.
150

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 10:38:03
On topic, this is disgraceful. I can take no pleasure from this. Wendy is a liability and an embarassment for Scottish politics.
So many times we're told of her superior intellect. So many times I find myself watching what she does and think, this is going to be interesting. She must have a trick up her sleeve, and I can't foresee it. Every time it turns out to be cack handed, irrational, and inept.
She's like Baldrick to Brown's Blackadder. She states she has a cunning plan, He sends her on a secret mission that no one else must know about. She ends up with keech on her face, he distances himself from all the flack.
She's a desperate loose canon. A waste of parliamentary time, space, and energy. Her unhinged ego seems to know no bounds. For goodness sake Labour party grass roots,....do something about this. This is a national embarassment and taints all of Scottish politics. We need a credible opposition, and Scottish Labour are dead in the water.
Reform or just simply fade away!
151

Alan B,

08/05/2008 10:40:00
#JEA

That simply does not makes sense.

How are the snp trying to get independence by the back door? They have a long standing commitment to a referendum. A referendum is clearly not through the back door (unlike the eu treaty as u pointed out). The snp have said all along they will introduce legislation in 2010 for a referendum in the same yr. Why should they jump now that wendy has done a uturn.

As for the tories aligning themselve with labour. While i am sure if a referendum takes place the tories will campaign for the union, given that wendy has acted in such a dishonerable way towards her calman partners why would the tories want anything to do with labour.

Also given ur probably anti eu stance. Why should scotland remain in a failing union with england rather than the much more decentralised confederal structure that is the eu. Intellectually i could understand if u were against unions per se.

152

Alan B,

08/05/2008 10:43:06
#Anointed

Never heard such a daft argument in my life.
153

Thistledhu,

08/05/2008 10:43:45
JEA WHAT WORLD ARE YOU IN?
Brown has said that she is not considering a referendum as an option, there is allready a white paper been tabeld for a referendum in 2010 so it is simply not possible for Holyrood to move for one sooner.

a tory/labour coalition jeez how the mighty fall
154

acanthus,

08/05/2008 10:45:37
170:

'Wendy Alexander has for once outfoxed Alex Salmond'

Really? You consider that an astute move by Alexander who is now a laughing stock and will most probably have to resign?
I don't follow your logic as Brown has thrown the referendum out and exactly who else is for it? Auntie Annabel and the FlpFlops aren't!

Yes Salmond is on the run alright!
155

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 10:47:19
Ref. wee wendy's photie

Are her lips stuck to a window? :)
156

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 10:48:40
143# Auld Twa

I was in Norway in the 80's, when a planned televised debate between the PM and leader of the opposition was cancelled. They couldn't find enough to disagree on.
Imagine that for a moment.
157

Ecce,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 10:49:47
120 "Truely English"

By what strange English logic have Scotland and England been one nation for more than six hundred years?
158

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 10:51:19
Meths and AJ

Caption. Wendy sucks.....the will to live out of Scottish Labour!
159

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 08/05/2008 10:53:27
Highland mighty @20, very negative anti Scottish comment, yet over the past few days you and other unionist posters were maintining that SNP were on the ropes with Wendy calling our bluff, now Wee Wendy has come unstuck.
160

MrMusic,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 10:53:38
Wendy amazes me. Gordon amazes me. I thought George Bush said some amazing (read stupid) things - but this has taken politics to a whole new level.
161

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 10:54:18
178 Acanthus#

Salmond's on the run alright, and he's just getting into his stride.
162

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 10:55:57
83 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 08/05/2008 07:25:00
'The alternative to vote for is federalism, not nationalism.'

Didn't seem to work in Jugoslavia or Czechoslovakia, and the Belgian Federation is falling apart.
But then again what would one excpect from a LibDem, they just can't seem to get down of the fence, ditherers one and all.
163

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 11:00:03
Caption.

Wendy offers to kiss and make up with Gordon.
164

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 08/05/2008 11:01:27
120 The union of the crowns took place in 1603, the union of parlaiments 1707. I respect English folks to call themselves English like us to call ourselves Scots. Until the recent constitutional debate it was very common for English folk to call this island England, and comments even on films as England being a stubborn little island,like Scotland didnt exist.
165

John S,

08/05/2008 11:01:49
#170 Wendy Alexander has for once outfoxed Alex Salmond.I agree Wendy is clever: If the SNP brought forward a bill for a referendum from 2010 then she would accuse the SNP of breaking a manifesto promise.
But she was too clever. Ms Alexander said Labour would consider bringing forward its own Bill for a referendum, but the party now seems to have concluded such a move would not be allowed by the rules since a government Bill on the same issue is already planned for this session.
Now she a choice either to support or abstain from opposing a government Bill on the referendum issue in 2010 or whenever because she is now advocating for a referendum.
166

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 11:02:53
Caption

Wendy attempts to "sup fae a lang spoon".
167

Nikostratos,

08/05/2008 11:04:58
#185 Ananurhing,

Alex doesnt do 'Run' more a slow walk...

168

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 08/05/2008 11:05:37
John @ 189 I agre Wendy is clever but like a lot of clever folk lacks common sense.
169

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 11:05:51
What has happened to Jackie ?
The last spot of bother for Wendy was cleared up on TV when Jackie told the others that all the emails had been published, as they were unaware of this it killed the discussion stone dead. The fact that the emails had (and have) not been published didn't bother Jackie.
She should have been there last night instead of the bumbling Ian Gray.
170

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 11:06:06
191# Niko

I think you'll find it's called a swagger!
171

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 11:07:43
Talk of a lack of Unionist coordination is rubbish. Behold:

http://www.jibjab.com/sendables/view/YUSq86SWe2mWNyngL4pCHUHV
172

Los Angeles,

08/05/2008 11:08:09
It is measure of the breathtaking ineptitude and pig ignorance of Ms. Alexander that she did not know she needs a minimum of 18 MSPs to create an opposition bill, and they MUST NOT be from the same party.

Where will she gather that support?

It simply is not there.

The SNP's manifesto stated blunty a referendum is to be placed before parliament and the people in 2010.

There is no uncertainty about that. The only uncertainty is when Ms Alexander will resign, or be told to resign, for gross ineptitude.

173

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 11:08:22
181 Ecce, truly english is obvioulsy a product of the english education system, where britania still rules the waves, the sun never sets on thier empire and every year is 1966, yawn.
174

acanthus,

08/05/2008 11:12:48
189: John,

Funny, she does not seem to clever to the public and the media. I gues she is just too clever for us all, including Gordon Brown as he failed to notice how clever she was as well until it was too late.

Silly post as the SNP were never going to bring a bill before 2010..so how does that make her clever?

175

acanthus,

08/05/2008 11:13:44
She is so clever she did not even know of the parliamentary procedure!
176

kirk 1,

08/05/2008 11:14:53
Listen up folks, don't be surprised if Salmond gives Wendy an easy time at FMQ'S today.
He did it after her donations debacle,when he could have gone for the jugular.

He knows the longer she survives the more he can hit Labour with in the future. Sturgeons comment on Wendy's position being untenable, will force the Slab MSP'S to back her, as they can't be seen doing the nat's work by ditching her.
177

acanthus,

08/05/2008 11:21:00
What happened in 66? I wasn't born then?
178

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 11:21:39
Peter Baleares,

How are you?

Do you think wee wendy could cut the mustard as a go go dancer in your club in Majorci? She might be looking for a career change!
179

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 11:21:44
203. I think 202 is referring to a road in the USA? Who or what are the "scotch" btw?
180

brownlie,

08/05/2008 11:22:50
170 JEA

Sadly for us unionists the Scottish electorate have already put Alex Salmond and the SNP in their place.
181

Thistledhu,

Fife 08/05/2008 11:25:46
wendy hasent been clever she is panicking
the snp administration is soaring in popularity
Labour are being trounced down south in local elections
national/westminster elections over the horizon,
labour on the verge of implodeing.
this is all very hard to bear for a generation of labour nepotists who veiwed elections in scotland as a mere formality.
182

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 08/05/2008 11:26:24
Ayrshire scot, its a hot day here in Ayrshire, as for Wendy, a political novelist couldnt make it up what she comes away with, Wendy please stay.
183

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 11:27:53
109 Montford's Jaicket,Hanging on. 08/05/2008 08:44:34

In England a Bap, is a soft round piece of bread, with a soft crust, similar to our great Scottish Morning Rolls, except, as I have already said it ain't Krusty,it's more like the wishey-washey American Hamburger roll, but withou the 'seeds', so, yeah I suppose the Alexander Sisters are just a couple o' 'baps', very saft oan tap ;-)
184

brownlie,

08/05/2008 11:29:08
197 Saoghal beag

Rubbish, truly is unionism's best asset and without him and Highland mighty/Alfred E. these threads would be bankrupt of sensible unionist postings.

Highland will be along after he's taken care of the caora bheag!
185

acanthus,

08/05/2008 11:29:08
207:

Just who has any interest in federalism?

There is more support for 'ferretism' than federalism in Scotland.
186

Dooogie,

08/05/2008 11:29:54
INDEPENDENCE - not being dependent.
In what way are we in Scotland dependent on Westminster?
A bunch of ya-boo-sucks egotistical politicians - more interested in keeping themselves in a very well paid job, than looking after the real interests of the people who unfortunately elected them.
Who is dependent on whom?
187

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 11:30:13
#203:

1966 was the year before the "Summer of Love" when Jimi Hendrix set fire to his guitar and smashed it up at the Monterey rock Festival.
188

Lochinvar,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 11:31:46
Top marks to Gordon Brewer on Newsnight Scotland!! He had Iain Grey sweating bullets. Available on BBC i-player. Labour/SNP/Tory/other I urge you all to watch it. It's The Day Today; Alan Partridge and The Office rolled into one. Truth is truly stranger than fiction.

I was almost sorry for the chap..almost..but he is a slimy politician after all. Salmond came across well again. It's not his fault (and it may be Labour tactic) but he's in danger of looking too smug entirely due to Labour's monumental incompetance. That's what 40 years of rule in Scotland without a serious examination does for you.
189

acanthus,

08/05/2008 11:37:37
I just checked on Wikipedia..is it true that England won the world cup?
There was only 6 teams in the tournament then though so not exactly a 'world cup'.
Sort of like the Americans have the 'world series'.

In a proper world cup with lots of teams England would have no chance.
190

Alan B,

08/05/2008 11:40:12
#Rulesbutnotrulers

First of all we currenly have a form of federalisation in the uk. So by advocating federalism u are advocating what we have at the moment.

If u mean a different form of federalism ie more decentralised u should really specify that as it is unclear what u are really advocating. Federalism can take many forms, but essentially u have centralised parliament and devolved parliaments. (Yes england needs to work out what it wants).

But lets say u are calling for dev max. ie fiscal autonomy and devolution of other things like all law and order, energy, transport, social security etc.

What exactly would u have for the central parliament. Currency, foreign policy, defence and eu membership. Anything else?

Looking at the 4 powers specified above u have to ask what the point would be. Those advocating federalism on these boards which seems to really mean dev max, do not actually seem to put forward what areas should be pulled and for what purpose.

Of the 4 i mentioned
1) currency: it would be in our economic interests to join the euro. (sterling interest rates are not beneficial to our economy)
2)eu membership: we would be better representing ourselves. see the deal the spanish have for fishing compared to us. yes work with england as a partner in the eu for mutual benefit.
3)rightly or wrongly scotlands view of defence issues is different from englands.
4)foreign policy: for relations with other countries we are better persuing them ourselves. with the sp even labour opened sudo scotttish embassies to represent our interests as uk ones were not. global foreign policy issues are better worked on at an eu level.

So what power do u think it would be better to share with england for our benefit?
191

brownlie,

08/05/2008 11:45:02
218 Acanthus

Yes England won the world cup. They beat Germany 4-2 (Scorers: Hurst 2, Peters 1, Russian Linesman 1).
192

Alan B,

08/05/2008 11:46:43
#brownlie

if that is true why have we never heard about it on the tellie
193

brownlie,

08/05/2008 11:47:41
220 Rules

At the risk of sounding rude, it appears that you are rather isolated in your thoughtfulness.
194

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 08/05/2008 11:49:18
50 Charles Linskaill

From the pictures they publish of her she looks like a proper b*tchy, screeching fishwife.

She make Hillary Clinton look positively angelic.

Is there not one pleasing photo in the archives of this woman or is she just profoundly unphotogenic?
195

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 11:50:02
207 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 08/05/2008 11:23:42

I was unaware that Czechoslovakia was an 'enforced federation'. If I recall my history, correctly, it was founded in 1918 after they declared Independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire., and as for Jugoslavia was it not founded as The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes on 1st Dec 1918, by the unification of The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs and The Kingdom of Serbia? not 'enforced federation', but mutual federation on both counts.
As is the current Belgian Federation, a mutual federation, not an 'enforced federation'.

As for Rhodesia & Nyasaland, was not that just an 'Administrative Area' in British Imperial Africa, Not a Federal State. As it was classed as a 'Federal Realm' of the British Crown, and wasn't an Independent State, but a 'semi-independent state', much like Scotland could be considered today, with the present 'devolution' settlement.

Is it really your wish that Scotland should become a Federal Realm of the British Crown, still ruled from Westminster?

As for your pointed point about 'eligible Scots' voting for the Union, what utter hogwash, it is historical fact that the English Army were encamped at Berwick and Carlisle, to facilitate the 'Union' in case the Scottish People objected, which they did and have been since that day of infamy over 300 years ago.

So all I can say is be gone with you you mealy mouthed ne'er do well.

"If you know your history then, you know where your going to"

Robert Nesta Marley.
196

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 11:50:46
202 Peter, teh Scots only mention '66 in the secure knowledge that we at least know what one of your hands are doing for a short while.
197

Guga II,

Rockall 08/05/2008 11:50:49
When you think about Wendy kowtowing to her political masters in London, maybe she should really be called Toom Tabard.
198

AJ Fife,

08/05/2008 11:50:54
It's indeed true, England won the World Cup in 1966. However, what was really sad, was the way success turned a proud and inspirational Captain (Bobby Moore), into a filthy common shoplifter only four years later!

Ah, the perils of fame and fortune!
199

Truely English,

08/05/2008 11:55:13
How fortunate for us all that we share the English language thus making us a prosperous nation on many levels.
200

Alan B,

08/05/2008 11:57:04
#230 ur right. otherwise ian gray would have been speaking portugese. might have more sense though.
201

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 11:58:58
220 Rules#

It must be frustrating that no one gets this but you.
How can we all be so misguided and thoughtless? Why is the folly of independence not staring us in the face?

Anyway, got to go. It's a perfect day to hang a few things out to dry......Career prospects, reputations, principles etc.
202

Rodster,

Glasgow 08/05/2008 12:00:48
watching FMQ it is hilarious pmwl
203

Steve McGregor,

Dundee 08/05/2008 12:01:40
Can't Scottish labour be independent of London Labour? I think the holyrood labour's credibility would be much higher if they engineer their own policies regardless what Westminster labour think or want. The should apply to the scottish tories and lib-dem.
204

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 08/05/2008 12:03:26
Wendy's outburst is irrational and just plain dumb. Labour have been seriously weakened in all of this.

Wendy has been a liability for some time now, and this reinforces it. I suppose Labour people are now saying to themselves 'when is the next gaffe going to occur'. That's no position for any kind of leadership.

A bit like Hillary, everyone realises its over - its just a matter of when. Labour's heading for a big meltdown when everything will be changing - Labour will probably wait until then. Wendy is now just a lame duck.
205

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 12:04:51
211 Methalions,08/05/2008 11:28:24

Aye Meths 1966

Started my apprenticeship with Singer Manf. Co Ltd at Clydebank

Started my first rock n roll band 'Sons of Shame'

Was going out with a 'Red Headed Woman',
"Well I don't know how many girls you've dated, man
But you ain't lived til you've had your tyres rotated
By a red headed woman"

Discovered politics

And the year before got drunk with Keith Moon in Morecambe (oops underage drinking...naughty boy that I am ;-) )

Pity we had to wait til 20th April 1967 to see the Real World Champions in action at Wembley, led by John Grieg, totally outclass the England world cup team and beat them 3-2, with Jim Baxter taking the 'Micheal' havin a wee game o' keepy uppy'
206

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 12:16:54
Most of us down here wish you would stop quarrelling among yourselves and get on with the independence process.
Without Scotland, English taxes will be spent in England rather than helping to subsidise you lot; we'd get the Tory government we want; English issues would be decided by English people not those elected in Scotland and we wouldn't have to put up with all the constant whingeing from north of the border.
More and more of us English thoroughly support Scottish independence. England yearns to be free as well but while England is ruled by pretend Brits like G Brown and all the other Scots we'll never be given the chance to vote for our own independence so we need you to do it for us. Don't let us down.
207

Findlay Thompson,

08/05/2008 12:30:49
Once again posters, it appears Goggs & Wendy's clandestine operation to tilt public opinion in favour of the SNP is working faultlessly!

Its seamless efficiency defies belief but you have to hand it to them, they are still intent on ruthlessly destroying the union!
208

brownlie,

08/05/2008 12:34:46
Do any of you "thoughtful" political analysts know if the brief for the Calman Review is going to be changed as a result of Wendy's conversion to a "Kwik-fit" referendum.

Calman said that they would not be considering a referendum and certainly not independence. Given that most, if not all, were unionists, will they have to co-opt members who are pro-referendum to give a degree of balance to their deliberations?
209

Brother Walfrid,

08/05/2008 12:35:00
239

I don't want Scottish independance.

For me, the financial implications of a split are of little concern. Your average joe will still be working his/her butt off trying to keep body and soul together.

What worries me most about a split is the narrow parochialism of the body politic in Scotland.
Maintaining a link with the blood thirsty cut and thrust of Westminster keeps things reasonably sane, but once Scotland is left to its own devices, all the crumby toon-coonsil attitudes will prevail.

Mediocrity will reign supreme.
210

Thistledhu,

08/05/2008 12:35:08
what channel is fmq,s on?
211

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 12:36:10
232 danielrober,08/05/2008 11:58:44

Perhaps before putting fingers to keyboard you should engage brain, or are you just another UUendy clone?

Or at the very least read the associated posts.

I doubt, however, that even if you did read them you would be capable of digesting the information and making reasoned and rational comments.

As for the suggestion that 'I' intend to introduce "racial rules of voting", I thought we already had them, but obviously you know better.

It is my belief that the only qualification to vote in this country is that you must be resident, over the age of 18 years and be a citizen of one of the EU countries for local elections, and a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Eire to vote in National (General) Elections, regardless of Race, Colour, Sex, Sexual Orientation or Creed.

However maybe you have a hidden agenda to change that.

I am deeply flattered that you think that 'I' have such influence within any political party that 'I' could set the 'manifesto'.


But I'm just an ordinary guy and don't have that capacity. But I do take umbrage to your underlying innuendo that 'I' and the SNP are 'racists'.

Again you prove that Onionist are Politically and morally bankrupt.

212

Calum Crubag,

08/05/2008 12:37:37
#1 - finally it seems that Brit Nats understand that independence and an SNP govt. are not necessarily the same. Though why anyone would vote Labour either in or out of 'Great' Britain, i don't know.

Maybe the Brit Nats are off thinking up excuses. Just weeks ago, a referendum was both not possible legally, according to Labour and not needed. Now it's both??!!
213

IndigenousCabbage,

Downtown UK 08/05/2008 12:37:51
Have just watched your first Ministers question time live. Thanks for the live link.

It was a breath of fresh air...to say the least.

You are really lucky. We only have Mr Bean and his troop of clowns and of course flash Dave south of the wall. Wish Scotland the best of luck in your bid for self determination.
214

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 08/05/2008 12:38:23
#239 LondonCalling
"Most of us down here wish you would stop quarrelling among yourselves and get on with the independence process."

So do most of us up here too .

"Without Scotland, English taxes will be spent in England rather than helping to subsidise you lot"

Without England ,Scottish taxes and OIL will be spent in Scotland rather than subsidise you lot ,100 BILLION POUNDS PLUS just to stop your financial markets from collapsing ,for now, for example!!!

"English issues would be decided by English people not those elected in Scotland and we wouldn't have to put up with all the constant whingeing from north of the border."

Scottish issues would be decided by Scottish people not those elected in england and we wouldn't have to put up with constant whinging from south of the border,you know subsidy junkies etc...


"More and more of us English thoroughly support Scottish independence."

More and more of us Scots thoroughly support English independence too!

England yearns to be free as well but while England is ruled by pretend Brits like G Brown and all the other Scots we'll never be given the chance to vote for our own independence so we need you to do it for us. Don't let us down.

I agree and No worries mate, I promise we'll let you have your country back in 2010. BUT now you know how WE felt for the last 300years !


215

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 12:40:34
245 Brother Walfrid,08/05/2008 12:35:00

A strange Psuedonym for an Onionist, Independence is ok for Eire but not for Scotland then?

or are you AM2 in drag?
216

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 12:43:33
FMQs
Interesting to see Wendy's first few teetering independent steps, after being cut loose by Brown.
Independence doesn't sit well with her. She looked miserable, and untenable.

She's deeply entrenched, and still digging. She should maybe take up waitressing. She keeps handing it to Salmond on a plate.

Give it a rest hen. Go home. See the bairns.
217

Brother Walfrid,

08/05/2008 12:52:01
251

Comparisons with Eire are invalid.

Scotland willingly joined the UK and its indigenous population were not oppressed.

England took Ireland by force, held onto it by force and would only let go (in part) by use of force.
218

kirk 1,

08/05/2008 13:04:26
#244 Calman is dead in the water.
Tories/Lib Dems wont prop her up.
They even managed to do Salmond's job for him today,by
getting tore into Wendy today.
219

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 13:05:22
#Cuthuluan

The city of London contributes many more times to UK GDP than Scottish oil. But I am glad otherwise that we agree that Scotland leaving the UK cannot come soon enough.

In that respect, with the Labour Scots particularly Brown & Darling making such a mess ofthings, the commies in kilts surely have a great chance of getting Scottish independence.

I therefore think Wendy Alexander is absolutely right to ask for the referendum to be brought forward.

220

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:08:26
Bendy wendy is totally correct,salmond should "put up or shut up",as for the "critics" anything to cause disharmomy and they are there!
221

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 13:11:42
254 Brother Walfrid,08/05/2008 12:52:01

What planet was this on? or have you been watching Simon Shcama?

Scotland did not willingly join the UK it was 'sold into' it by a few rogues, and the indigenous population were oppressed, even as recently as 1918, when Churchill put Armed Welsh and English Troops on the streets of Glasgow and confined the Scottish regiments to their barracks.

You really should read more of this country's history under the so called Union, Annexation is perhaps a more correct term.
222

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:11:45
258.BUT THEY WERE SCOTTISH POLITICIANS,AND THEY STOPPED SCOTLAND BECOMING A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY!
223

Busymale,

08/05/2008 13:12:36
I almost feel sorry for Wendy. She looks like a hurt animal on TV looking for shelter. Maybe we should find her sanctuary - in another gob the size of her own!
224

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:14:06
262. YOU SEEM THE IDEAL CANDIDATE!
225

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:17:00
264 The trouble with "chip on the shoulder jackie" is she refuses to leave the past in the past.
226

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 13:17:08
More than two thirds of English people support Scottish Independence, so why don't we get a say?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1263284,00.html
227

Busymale,

08/05/2008 13:17:53
Oh look Kimba, the slayer of Scots is back!

Can someone not put a sock in this bad mouther who racially abuses the Scots while living off the wealth created by them?

If she referred to coloured people in the same way she refers to Scotland she'd be permanently banned. Nothing but biggoted hatred, nothing positive, nothing pleasant about this half-wit at all. Debate is constructive, vitriol destructive.

Kimba, look yourself in the mirror. What do you see? A balanced pleasant person people would wish to spend time with or a sad individual consumed by your own foul thoughts?

Get some sleep!
228

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 13:22:02
253 Peter, you go blind from punching your hand in the air in celebration?

266 First step, go get your own parliment and stop whinging.
229

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:22:25
267.I see someone who is getting to you nats,aw,didums,did nasty kimba upset the little cry baby,WELL TOUGH!
230

Edward,

08/05/2008 13:22:26
#254 Brother Walfrid
Ah so the mass riots in Edinburgh and Glasgow were actually crowds cheering that Scotland was sold out to England then in 1707
You really need to get a grip on the facts
231

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 13:23:01
England stuck in an unhappy marriage but only Scotland can call for a divorce. How fair is that?
232

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 13:23:33
254 Brother Walfrid,08/05/2008 12:52:01

As for Eire, the Irish Free State, established on the 6th Dec 1922 included all of Ireland, but the six counties used their prerogative, under Article 12 of the Articles of Agreement set forth in the Schedule to the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act, 1922, and of Section 5 of the Irish Free State Constitution Act, 1922 to beg the Kings' Indulgence to allow them to return to the United Kingdom, this they done on 7th Dec 1922 and were re-admitted to the United Kingdom on 13th Dec 1922.

They only area ever to be given Independence from the UK and returned to it voluntarily.

'If you know your history, then you know where youe going to'
233

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:24:04
268. And you really need to learn to spell"PARLIAMENT"!
234

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 08/05/2008 13:25:13
#251 Bro Walfrid

"Scotland willingly joined the UK and its indigenous population were not oppressed"

You do half talk b*ll*cks.

Some of the (english) money was used to hire spies, such as Daniel Defoe; his first reports were of vivid descriptions of violent demonstrations against the Union. "A Scots rabble is the worst of its kind," he reported, "for every Scot in favour there is 99 against". Years later John Clerk of Penicuik, originally a leading Unionist, wrote in his memoirs that,

(Defoe) was a spy among us, but not known as such, otherwise the Mob of Edinburgh would pull him to pieces.

Sir John Clerk of Penicuik, an ardent pro-unionist and Union negotiator, observed that the treaty was `contrary to the inclinations of at least three-fourths of the Kingdom'.

Anti-union petitions were received from shires, burghs, presbyteries and parishes. The Convention of Royal Burghs also petitioned against the Union and not one petition in favour of an incorporating union was received by Parliament. On the day the treaty was signed, the carilloner in St Giles Cathedral, Edinburgh, rang the bells in the tune Why should I be so sad on my wedding day?

Add to this the massed army on the border ,the bribes to the nobles ,"eligible voters" someone called them ,aye right.

Ireland , our celtic brothers and sisters ,have thier own problems which they seem to be making great progress on . Let's just stick to sorting Scotland's problems and let the Irish solve Irelands problems.

#257 LondonCalling
"The city of London contributes many more times to UK GDP than Scottish oil."
?!?!?!?! I do not remember Scottish Oil NEEDING 100 BILLION POUNDS PLUS just to keep the business going? I think you will find there is a lot worse to come as well. I think you will also find London gets a lot MORE SUDSIDY than Scotland.

But yes we can agree that Scotland leaving the UK can not happen quickly enough. I wish the independent nation of England all the best as I hope
235

Edward,

08/05/2008 13:26:38
Watched FMQ's and was not dissapointed. Best days entertainment as Wendy the witch of the West made herself a complete idiot. Why is it that her supporters keep saying she is very intelligent, or is it compared to them?
Even the other opposition parties had a pop at Wendy
Alex Salmond once again wiped the floor with Wendy, at once stage Im sure she was having problems holding it together it got that bad. Anabelle was on her usual surcastic form and Nicol had a go
236

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 13:26:38
269# Kimba

THAR SHE BLOWS.........SOU' BY SOU' EAST 'N' BREAK OUT THE HARPOONS!


PLEASE STOP SHOUTING!
237

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 08/05/2008 13:26:46
Good greif. Wendy Alexander is the leader of the main opposition party in Edinburgh. Quite hilarious, but sad, really. Thre are far too many insane and/or balloon-headed Scottish politicians about. I hope we don't all get tarred with the same brush.
238

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 13:27:35
My cards on the table would have me an avowed nationalist, liberal on social matters, right of centre on fiscal matters, atheist, freedom of information radical, supporter of nuclear power, man-made climate change denier, supporter of the regulated free market, quango-hater, anti-monarchist.....

Like most folk, I vote in my interests but some of these are altruistic, some rational, some emotional. You'll find it hard to pigeon-hole my views or align me to any party. Some SNP policies I strongly oppose but Alex has the loan of my vote for now.

After independence it is a sobering thought that the same bunch of labour numpties in power here for so long may form the largest cohesive party and actually be in government, possibly the first elected in the renewed sovereign nation. I hope not.

You have to hand it to Alex. This is setting the agenda and seizing the high ground with an aplomb bordering on the masterful. Aim high my friend, for should you fail, independence will be off the agenda for a political generation.

Maybe a pro Union blogger can explain to me, why would a nation subvert its interests in a Union whose raisons d'etre have expired and which is itself subsumed in a larger union that guarantees the economic benefits of free trade that the UK purported to deliver for Scotland but never quite did?

The larger union respects cultures, regions and nations, encourages diversity and would give Scotland an autonomous say in its own interests such as fishing, oil, whisky etc.

There is no need to fall out with England over such matters, they remain our island neighbours, monoglots like most of us with considerable cultural overlap but not the same, whether they like it or not.

I agree with Wendy, "bring it on", with Alex,"aye, in 2010 like we said" and whith Gordon, "what?" "She never said that!" "Did she?" "Oh Sh!t"
239

Cuthulan,

approx. 12,000 miles from Earth's core 08/05/2008 13:27:46
But yes we can agree that Scotland leaving the UK can not happen quickly enough. I wish the independent nation of England all the best as I hope you wish the independent nation of Scotland . Independence did not do any harm in the relations between the Republic of Ireland and England ,so why should it effect Scotland and England.

Anyway its a beautiful day i'm off to enjoy it.
240

THE BPRENTICE,

08/05/2008 13:28:49
the best thing you can say about Wendy is that she's 'original'.
241

brownlie,

08/05/2008 13:29:41
Kimba

Your frequent and incoherent rants are a major asset to the nationalist cause.
242

zigzag,

Canada 08/05/2008 13:34:12
You dont tug on SNPs Cape

Bad bad Gordo Broon

Stupidist d*#k in the
whole damn world

You get the idea.
243

Busymale,

08/05/2008 13:34:52
#283

The lass should get herself a job and contribute towards the national economy rather than live off state benefits. She's just worried that should we go independent her alms are cut!
244

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 13:36:02
kimba various posts, I see your still running aff at the mooth, ah wid stay aff thon broon ale if ah wis ye, ye ken there's a big hoose in Nyacassel fur people whit drink thob stuff, mibbe ye should stick tae thon Camerons' Best Bitter or a pint o' Ex, or maybe even a we boatel o' Amber ale. As a think thats aboot aw ye can haunel.

In the words o' delboy 'What a plonker'
245

IndigenousCabbage,

Downtown UK 08/05/2008 13:36:19
You will have to forgive my fellow countryman 'LondonCalling' he cant help it, he's a damn Suverner.

He has just had a deep shock - They have turned London into a circus. Boris the Tory clown is now ringmaster!!
246

LondonCalling,

London 08/05/2008 13:37:02
Cuthulan

Of course I hope Scotland does well outside the UK. I love Scotland with a passion - I'd just prefer it wasn't running my country, stealing my taxes and moaning at me all at the same time.
Undoubtedly we in England and Wales will be both wealthier because of tax cuts of as much as 5p in the £, and happier because we will be running our own country again and won't have you lot whingeing at us all the time.
Anyway, like you say, it's a beautiful day.
247

kimba,

08/05/2008 13:37:51
283. Only a desperate fool would post such a stupid comment.
248

Busymale,

08/05/2008 13:41:28
# 289

You won't be wanting our oil and gas then?
249

LondonCalling,

08/05/2008 13:44:02
~288 IC

Nothing to do with being a "Suverner". 68% of English people want independence for Scotland. It is bound to come, so not having a referendum is delaying the inevitable. Wendy Alexander is right.
250

megz,

Glasgow 08/05/2008 13:44:29
289, to be fair Scotland isn't running your country. I wouldn't even go as far as to say Scots are running it because they consider themselves british, so as long as there is a UK then there is a chance you will be run by someone that is born in Scotland just need to accept that i'm afraid. Now if there is independence you won't have any Scottish MPs voting on things that will affect you but not Scotland. I can see where that is really unfair and i really do sympathise there.
251

KWC,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 13:44:38
Interested to note that many of the regular commenters who still support Labour have nothing to say on this story. They can obviously see no positive spin that can be put on this.

The word 'lie' is perhaps too strong to use in politics but two people from the same side espousing quite opposite views? Can't both be right.

Wonderful. Keep it up, Wendy. In my eyes you're the best thing that has happened to the Scottish Labour Party.
252

IndigenousCabbage,

08/05/2008 13:47:33
Think you should deal with your own problems, believe you have trouble with bendy-busses not bendy wendy!
253

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 13:48:35
A favourite topic now.

What will the rump UK call itself after independence?

The thrones will be separate as they are now and still on a single head but the Kingdoms will no longer be united, so UK is out for sovereign lower Britain.

Britain is nae use either for that would remain the name of the major island of these isles.

England - well maybe but I know a few boyos who would demur.

England & Wales. Yes; factually correct - but sort of ignores the six counties and we don't want to annoy the Irish now they've settled down a bit.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Bit of a mouthful and plenty of room for dissent over the order.

England FC - for Engerland and former colonies perhaps?

Greater England? possibly.

Most likely given the heritage is just England. After all 1.2 million citizens in an occupied territory can be safely ignored now the Ginger Jocks have baggahed awf...
254

Busymale,

08/05/2008 13:48:49
#292

So there you have it....the Scots want independnce from England and the English want independence from Scotland. All we need now is for Kimba to come online and tell us how much her benefits are subsidising oil exploration!

255

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 13:50:21
295 and that is where you have been getting it wrong since the union of parliments. as the scottish parliment ceased to be so did the english and the new established parliment was put in place to govern the whole UK. then scotland regained some control of its own affairs and left england bemused and confused. you need your own parliment, go make it so.
256

Ken S.,

Reading 08/05/2008 13:54:15
#293 megz,
"...as long as there is a UK then there is a chance you will be run by someone that is born in Scotland.."

Where the person is born is immaterial; it is where their constituency is. Thus there would be absolutely no problem (in constitutional principle anyway!) if, say,English MP George Galloway were to be in charge of a major government department responsible for predominantly English services.


Federation,Independence or revert to proper Union. Anything but the present mess!
257

IndigenousCabbage,

08/05/2008 13:54:17
LondonCalling

Do you seriously think that Scotland going independent will make any difference to your pocket. Dream on - our government have their hands stuck that far into your wallet that you wont notice the difference.
258

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 13:58:20
274 danielrober,08/05/2008 13:24:21
247 Boggle fey the Bog

'So you have read another comment that i trade with the Islamic community. Shock, me and another 5-10 million Brits. I doubt my customer are easily pesuaded by your simply taunts. In fact they'll find them amusing.
I'm guessing that your remortgage company is catching you up. When you take out loans, you need to pay them back. Trying blame other people for your problems in Africa (assuming your a white colonial), is just getting sad now.
Just out of interest, why do you colonials constantly try comparing youself with Scotland'
_______________________________________

Hey man time you stopped smokin that Class B drug, you really have lost the plot, and are talkin compleat keech.

Personally I couldn't give a monkeys tail who you trade with, that being your business.

As for 'remortgage' what is that? I don't have one, mine was paid off years ago, by the sweat of my brow and the assistance of good management principles!!!

Colonial, whit, I'm a Scotsman born and bred, I have served under the Queens Colours, around the world, ran my own businesses, employed people, created wealth for the country, contributed to society and have lived in England, Europe and Scotland and I have been back in Scotland for the last umpteen years.

I'm also a proud Nationalist who believes in Scotland and her people, I have nothing to defend but my family, my country, my love of my country and all of it's people, if that makes me a 'Colonial' then I hold up my hands and say 'Guilty'.

But I think by my admission even Uncle Joe wouldn't even call me a 'Colonial'!!

You really are a such a prize plonker, did this come naturally or have you had to work really hard to attain this pinnacle of achievement?
259

Brother Walfrid,

08/05/2008 13:59:01
Scotland did willingly join the UK.

The union of the parliaments was ratified by the scottish parliament.

It may not have been a very popular move amongst the population. Nevertheless, the union was lawfully entered into by the scottish parliament which effectively voted itself out of existence.

So, it is simply nonsense compare the situation between Eire and Scotland...the former was taken by military force, Scotland's parliament agreed to a union with England's. End of story.

Get over it.
260

Davie08,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 14:00:43
297
Ewanistan?
261

megz,

glasgow 08/05/2008 14:00:56
#300 i can completely understand that, I know i wouldn't be happy in with a situation that has people legislating laws etc that affect me but doesn't affect their constituents.
262

megz,

glasgow 08/05/2008 14:02:44
#303 i am going to go out on a limb here and assume you support irish independence and that you don't support scottish independence, (please correct me if i'm wrong on that) if that is the case can you explain why.
263

Edward,

08/05/2008 14:03:58
#303
Deaf, blind or just plain stupid?
Just to reiterate, the population DID NOT have the vote, they were NOT represented in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament of 1707 was only noble lords and earls and they sold there lt for parcels of land and money
264

Ken S.,

Reading 08/05/2008 14:05:17
#297voltaire's janny,

"...What will the rump UK call itself after independence?
..Most likely given the heritage is just England."

And why not? After all, Wales was never a single self-governing nation and many centuries ago it was a Welshman, the first of the Tudor dynasty, who merged our two territories. Thus it was a reverse takeover, so yer Taffs ain't got no cause for complaint!

Northern Ireland would remain a special case and in that instance would have to like it or lump it.

The worst situation would be to finish up with a federal solution whilst still trying to keep UK in the title.

Federated Countries [of the] United Kingdom wouldn't do, as it seems that set of initials is already trademarked.
265

Arfur,

08/05/2008 14:08:00
VARIOUS IDIOTS...like Kimba and London Calling.

(1) Scotland was taken by force, an amry was stationed ready to attack if the union was not signed.

(2) Some Landowning Scots that appossed the thought of a union were killed not long before it was signed.

(3) Scottish Landowners were bribed with estates in England, some were threatened.

If you are going to come on this site and spout your guff. At least try and get LITTLE things like history right.

Oh and by the London Calling. Scottish oil brings in just about as much to the UK as is given to the Scottish goverment. Add up everything else and you will find that we actually subsidise you.

Heres a little idea you little gimboid - dont just type the first thing that comes into your shrapnel cluttered brain of yours, do this little thing called research.
266

Edward,

08/05/2008 14:08:48
#297 voltaire's janny
Post Independence, its likely to be
Kingdom of Scotland
Kingdom of England
Sorry Wales , as Wales is a Princepallity of England, it still doesnt get a mention
The more interesting question is what to do with Northern Ireland
Will they also make a move and go for some kind of quasi independence or will they through there lot in with England. In which case it would become the Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland
267

Ken S.,

Reading 08/05/2008 14:09:00
#304 Davie08,

"Ewanistan?"

Nah; the "Ewan" bit sounds too Scottish
268

Edward,

08/05/2008 14:10:41
#297
Then again what do outher Kingdoms call themselves
such as The Netherlands
269

kimba,

08/05/2008 14:11:11
309. And there speaks a man full of billious bile,if you wish to be a little fish in a big pond be my guest.
270

Busymale,

08/05/2008 14:11:17
#303

You left outthe fact that the Scottish people didnt have a right to vote for the Scottish Parliament - only the wealthy who still rule the world!
271

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 14:12:35
298 Busymale,08/05/2008 13:48:49

LOL
272

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 14:13:54
303

Some truth in what you say, but it's not the end of the story. Keep watching; it's time!

Even its architects were wistful about the purchase of Scotland's sovereignty referring to it thus, "There's ane end to ane auld sang..."

It was a simple bribe. Westminster made good some of the losses of Darien wherein Scotland's ruling classes squandered a quarter of her GNP, and they soon flipped to a promising treaty, almost immediately reneged on by England and, some would say, have ever since.

Union has been good, despite that, for Scotland, the Enlightenment and the world. And it's usefulness is over time to move on.

Get over it.
273

Doh,

08/05/2008 14:14:21
297

Lesser Britain ?
274

Miss H,

08/05/2008 14:16:18
All those replying to Brother Walfrid don't bother. He prefers the 'bloody cut and thrust' of Westminster to Scottish parochialism.

Perhaps the bloody cut and thrust of Westminster politics could be even better appreciated in Basra - but whatever any case someone who prefers bloody cut and thrusting to enlightened self government is not worthy of responding to in the first place.

275

megz,

Glasgow 08/05/2008 14:18:28
they should just call it England and Wales, isn't that pretty much the way of things just now??
276

john z,

edinburgh 08/05/2008 14:19:25
Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy. Time to go.
277

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 14:20:11
308 Ken

Nice one. I like FCUK

However twas Eddy 1st who annexed Wales and derogatively made his son Eddy the catamite its first Prince.

And they were Plantagenets, no? Not Tudors, though I am prepared to stand corrected on Southron historical matters nor pertaining to the beloved country.
278

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 08/05/2008 14:23:49
Please people, leave Kimba alone, next to Wendy and Gordon, she is the most compelling argument for independence that there is!

As for our friends South of the border having a referendum on independence, who is stopping them, they should go ahead, provided of course it's a referendum on English independence and that the people of Wales have their own say about the future of their country, it is only fair after all.

I wonder if the English one will include a 40% rule?

BTW, for those unionists who are STILL saying that Wendy has been really clever, (members of her family.....it must be), try thinking this over nice and slow.

Wendy's cunning plan was to make the SNP look bad, that is why she kept droning on about Alex Salmond having a referendum, she already knew there was no way that the other unionist partys at Holyrood would go for it, never mind the SNP, so it wasn't going to happen, therfor, the SNP would look scared, the other unionist partys would look weak and she and her lot would look like winners, well that was the idea.

She never mentioned of course that Westminster, where Labour already have a majority, could do this, they could set the questions, the time-table, they could even rig it again if they wanted, she didn't mention it because she knew that for several reasons Gordon wouldn't do it, but she wasn't going to change the habits of a political lifetime and tell the people the truth now.

So Holyrood it was, trouble was when her bluff was called it all fell to bits, especially when it all came out that Gordon didn't back her, even though she said publicly that he had, for the hard of thinking thats called lying, an art, which to be fair unionist leaders are past masters at, but not this time, she was caught out as her lips were seen to move.

So from plan a to plan b, which was even worse, she was going to do it herself, problem here was/is she didn't know the rules and worse hadn't even bothered to check them out, so she then discov
279

brownlie,

08/05/2008 14:25:11
283 kimba

Perhaps I was trying to illustrate that you don't have the monopoly on stupid comments. We expect them from you and you never let us down.
280

Arfur,

08/05/2008 14:25:16
313 kimba - do you dispute anything in my post? If so specifically what? And what would be your version of it.

You have the 3 points on force etc and who subsidises who.

Make it clear and concise if you can.

Ready for laugh guys??????????
281

Ken S.,

Reading 08/05/2008 14:25:37
#314 Busymale,

"..You left out the fact that the Scottish people didn't have a right to vote for the Scottish Parliament "

Nor did the ordinary folk of England in respect of the English parliament.

However, overall it's a bit anachronistic to argue the constitutional rights & wrongs of events 300 years ago by reference to present-day standards.



#312 Edward,

"..Then again what do other Kingdoms call themselves,
such as The Netherlands"

'Kingdom of the Netherlands' apparently (Koninkrijk der Nederlanden). Ditto Norway (KONGERIKET NORGE)

On that basis presumably you're suggesting something straightforward like Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland
282

kimba,

08/05/2008 14:25:50
298. point 1 I have never claimed any form of benefit,unlike some I studied at Durham uni and now have a well paid job.
point two. Scotland wouldn't have stood a cat in hells chance of getting the oil out of the north sea without help from England and the yanks.
283

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 14:26:17
Without taking the P, 320 is correct. It will be just so. Pro Republic communities in N.I. are out-breeding the Planters (sorry 'bout that term) and if R.O.I. would only rid its constitution of the baleful influence of Rome, the Emerald Isle as one would offend no-one. Unlike me, who offends all without favour.

Scotland, Ireland, England & Wales

sounds familiar don't it?
284

Ananurhing,

08/05/2008 14:27:14
322 Voltaire's Janny

Why not combine the names England and Wales?

Wingerland?
285

Teamdroid,

08/05/2008 14:27:25
#297 - the Herald Diary once ran a piece on this. Someone suggested the new name should contain the commonly understood abbreviations for Wales (WA) and Northern Ireland (NI), as they make up only small parts of the new state. The name should also contain most of, but not all, the letters from "England".

That gives you "Waningland".
286

The Sprucer,

08/05/2008 14:30:33
"I'd just prefer it [Scotland] wasn't running my country, stealing my taxes and moaning at me all at the same time" - LondonCalling

The problem with this comment is that it isn't Scotland that's running your country, it's some Scottish people who consider themselves more British than Scottish. In anycase, it's still London and Westminster that's trying to run Scotland and has been for 300 years. I get your point but if you think you're being hard done by, ask the majority of Scots what they think of Margaret Thatcher.

One last point, this mis-conception that you have about us taking more than we put in is really nothing other than a mis-conception. There is no truth in it. And it's unfortunate that the treasury insists on refusing to publish how much Scotland contributes. We know that the Barnett Formula is pretty much a joke, if not then why need to reform it? I suppose they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
287

kimba,

08/05/2008 14:31:33
325. If the act of union had not happened scotland would of been bankrupt,you know it,the whole world knows it, so if you want to be a third world country go ahead.
288

Ken S.,

Reading 08/05/2008 14:37:33
#322
voltaire's janny,
"..However twas Eddy 1st who annexed Wales.."

I'm not too hot on history but my understanding was that Ed1 conquered Wales militarily but Taffy Tudor (subsequently becoming Hen7 of England) oversaw the formal absorption into one nation.
289

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 14:41:43
327 kimba,08/05/2008 14:25:50

You obviously didn't 'major' in English then, did you. Perhaps you took a BA in Sport or perhaps Politics.

Both extremely useful for 'spamming'.
290

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 14:42:41
Why do I sense alumni of Durham, reaching for their quills to pen their resignations?

Kimba, what on earth can you mean by your oil comments?

On every rig, barge, platform, seismic boat supply ship and standby vessel I have ever been on the myriad nationalities, mutinational oil companies and countless subcontractors needed no help but investment cash.

Are you seriously suggesting that poor little Scotland, engineering centre of excellence throughout Empire could not have drilled for oil without "help"?

What patronising pi$h.
291

Scimiter,

uk 08/05/2008 14:44:27
Scots please vote for independence. Then we the English and Welsh can send Brown and the rest of the Scottish mafia politicians back to where they belong. We have enough idiotic politicians of our own with out having to be ruled by your lot.
292

Mr Custard,

Ediinburgh 08/05/2008 14:47:07
#243 Peter

You seem to speak as though RBS and oil are the only contributors to the UK economy. Have you not considered the majority of the FTSE 100 companies reside in England and all contributing their fair share of taxes. RBS's 3.3billion is pittance. Don't forget as well, that should independence happen (and no reason to suspect why not) that RBS is based in England as well, and that taxes raised will be retained there too.

I don't why you all skew the argument so much and ignore other basic facts.





293

kimba,

08/05/2008 14:47:17
335. really! then wikipe
dia are totally wrong then! The Scottish perspective

In Scotland, it was claimed that union would enable Scotland to recover from the financial disaster
294

kimba,

08/05/2008 14:50:22
337.So scotland had billion of pounds to spare,get real,without the money pumped in by the yanks the oil would still be in the oceans.
295

kimba,

08/05/2008 14:52:21
343.He hasn't got the b-lls!
296

IndigenousCabbage,

08/05/2008 14:52:37
Yeah, flash Dave, wee Nick Clegg.......wow I cant wait!

Whatever happens in Scotland the future in England looks bleak. All are theives, liars and vagabonds
297

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 14:52:58
331 Peter, if and when Scotland chooses to follow its own indenpendent path it will still leave england without its own parliment. The remaining entities within the UK will continue to form aprt of the westminster government.

As for the name surely it would be Little England? that's got quite a nice ironic ring to it.
298

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 14:55:53
333

Stop Press. Kimba utters something NOT congruent with garbage.

Scotland was not bankrupt, but many of her ruling classes were. As I said above 1/4 of GNP went down the toilet in Darien (Panama).

That the failure of the colony was actively sought by England, nor that the Union of Parliaments was a financial transaction, nor the subsequent violation in practise and principle of the Treaty's provisions, by England, are not seriously disputed - being a matter of record.

The benefits of Union came about almost by accident. Defeat of the Jacobites ended armed conflict in mainland britain forever. This allowed the Enlightenment and the rest is modern history.

To suggest that England had a benign role in any of this or that dissolution of Union would (in the absence of English hegemony) pitch Scotland into the 3rd world is breathtaking inanity, Kimba dear.

Many independent estimates place Independent Scotland around 18th wealthiest nation on the planet, in the company of those other third world failures, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

Go back to talking complete garbage - it's so you.

299

Mr Custard,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 14:57:17
#346

What a fair and magnanimous judgement, worthy of any true Scot. Makes me proud.
300

JayJay,

Right here 08/05/2008 14:57:58
London Calling
Your many posts convince me you have spent too long in the sun, with the Pimms, reading the Evening Standard.
On a good day, the balance of payments looks grim for Scotland when you have a system that quite deliberately rules out projects that are deemed to be of national importance (most London capital projects, including the Olympics, attract such a tag), as well as the significant cost of maintaining so many government departments in one of the most expensive cities on planet earth.
But you fall on your behind when you resort to that last refuge of the (English) scoundrel, the City of London, repeating the by now busted flush that is "the economic powerhouse of the UK". We are living through a horrendous credit crunch that has all but destroyed the UK economy and banking system. At the core of this, is a bunch of 28 year old pinstriped hedge fund managers, faffing around like grossly overpaid bookies with someone else's money. We, via the Bank of England, are paying a very heavy price for a decade of greed and stupidity in the City of London.
Ask yourself this my friend. If Scotland was such a drain on your livelihood, don't you think we'd have been dumped by now, or are we retained as some sort of expensive trophy or "pet".
Its not just here. The North East of England is probably just as fed up with London sucking the life (and dosh) out of the rest of the UK, then pockling the figures to make it look as though we'd all persish without the power of the City.
Away and raffle yourself.
301

Donald Norway,

Norway 08/05/2008 14:59:45
Any country with oil has no problems getting it out with the help multinational oil companies. If Scotland had been independent it would still have been produced. If you want to see how it could have benefited Scotland fully, just look to Norway. A small fully independent country, which have managed their resource (with out any direct help from England) better than the UK and are now one of the wealthiest countries in the World, where as Scotland has missed out on the revenue tax wise, So far. Time to do something about that I’d say Scotland.
302

kimba,

08/05/2008 15:02:53
348. Oh how quaint, your insults are of a latter generation!
303

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 15:09:59
In 1707 the pro-Unionists, Burns' "Parcel of Rogues" were indisputably gagging for their losses to be redressed and were more than willing to sell out Scotland to achieve that.

The only real historical doubt is whether the 4th Duke of Hamilton, leading opponent of Union, and rich enough himself not to be beggared by Darien was won over by argument or the lowest scum of them all.

Sir James Douglas' line stretches unbroken to the forging of Independence under the hammer of Edward(s) and his pedigree is impeccable.

Was he the hireling traitor, whose wages we still pay, or a visionary who foresaw the benefits of Union that even as an ardent supporter of modern Independence, I cannot deny?
304

kimba,

08/05/2008 15:11:27
351. Not all was so rosy as you make out. from "Norway,an oil nation" In order to prevent petroleum revenues from having a negative impact on Norway’s economy, and to protect the country against future budget deficits caused by the demographic trend of an ageing population
305

Arfur,

08/05/2008 15:14:29
Kimba - you never fail to make a fool of yourself. I gave you the chance to say fairly that nothing in my post was wrong yet you came back with that garbage.

#340 Mr Custard - RBS do have offices in England, but not many and not very big except Waterhouse Sq in London - even that is not that big. Most of them shouldn't even be called offices, they are collections centres actually.

There is alot more than RBS as well. HBOS, Standard Life, Scottish Life, Baillie Gifford, Morgan Stanley. Barclays are talking about moving HQ to Scotland also.

Edinburgh is the 5th largest financial city in Europe and Glasgow is 20th.

Scottish Wiskey also contributes £800M to the Scottish Economy as well as as well as adding £2 billion to the balance of trade making it one of the UK’s top five manufacturing export earners. The Whisky industry also generates a substantial income for the government with around £1.6bn raised in duty each year.

Glasgow is Scotland's leading seaport and is the fourth largest manufacturing centre in the UK, accounting for well over 60% of Scotland's manufactured exports.

Glasgow has the UK's largest and most economically important commerce and retail district after London's West End.

In 2005 Scotland ranked second only to London in the European league of headquarters locations of the 30 largest banks in Europe as measured by market value.

Scotland is one of the world's biggest fund management centres with over £300bn worth of assets directly serviced or managed in the country.

Business rates have been cut in Scotland under SNP and so more companies will come to Scotland.

As for you idiotic comment about RBS having offices in England and so tax will be raised that way also. Woppediedo....HSBC, Lloyds, Nationwide, PWC, KPMG and on and on.....have offices in Scotland also.
306

kimba,

08/05/2008 15:15:31
356. It doesn't really matter, scotland IS part of the union and so it will remain for the forseeable future.
307

Mr Custard,

08/05/2008 15:25:50
#359 All very interesting, yet entirely irrelevant to my original point.

My point wasn't to state that Scotland doesn't contribute, but to put down Peter's statement that RBS and oil are the lynchpins of the UK economy. He seems to ignore the contribution of companies based in England quite conveniently.

Thanks for the idiotic comment though nonetheless. Insults will get you far in life, as oppose to polite discussion.
308

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 15:37:36
366 Traquir

Thanks for the link. I particularly liked this bit


"Earlier, Labour MSP Malcolm Chisholm came to Ms Alexander's defence, insisting her call was the right one, adding: "She has widespread support not only within the Labour Party but I believe throughout Scotland."

Mr Brown, he added, held the Scottish Labour leader in the highest regard and trusted her political judgement."


Deluded or what??

Did Fatty Foolkes have anything to say today other than 'where's my expenses'???
309

Arfur,

08/05/2008 15:39:49
And my point #365 Mr Custard is the Scottish goverment recieve almost the same amount as made by North Sea Oil. So where does the rest off ALL that I posted go (plus others, got bored of typing)....answer Down South. Scotland subsidises England heavily.
310

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 15:44:41
313. Kimbaya - what type if bile is not bilious?

367 - George Foulkes did day, in the Times recently "Labour will oppose the SNP referendum plans at every turn". But as Weny said (BBC news) "a referendum is not a question for any serious thinking politician" so no one took any noice of Foulkes.

Now, any clarity on Brown saying there will be no decision on a referendum until after the Calman commission, and that Wendy wasn't calling for one, and Wendy demanding one today (before dinner time she is now demanding) so she can vote in it before she is sacked?
311

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 15:50:12
meths, she's been sooking yir goats, how do you protectm yourself from goatsuckers?
312

Saoghal Beag,

08/05/2008 16:07:20
373 watch yir soor plooms then
313

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 16:09:53
I am so tired of the mud-slinging "we-saved-you-Jocks- from-abject-poverty" rubbish.

Also the "whaur's England stashed wur oil cash?" drivel.

Independence is our right, claim it. It is not for incremental financial gain nor should we fear any concommitant loss at the margin. The world recognises Scotland as a nation, on a par with any other. The European Union gurantees no 18th century economic skulduggery by our soon to be nearest neighbour, so what are we waiting for?

Independence is simply about not being dependent - not having the keeper of the books telling us the balance is not in our favour. We know that's a fiddle.

Ditch the cringe, dump the union, the future is then ours and our pols can take the credit or criticism for whatever happens then.

314

kimba,

08/05/2008 16:29:05
375.If only it were that simple,we have 300years of marriage,and the majority wan't to keep the marriage afloat.
315

Jimmy the Pie,

08/05/2008 16:31:21
#375 Very good posting.

Lets stand up for ourselves
316

Scimiter,

uk 08/05/2008 16:36:17
Voltaire, surely Scotland will want to leave the EU if it wants full independece? Otherwise she will still be complient to Brussels and will have to abide by the rules and laws of another assembly, that is not true independence is it?
317

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 16:38:20
379. That will be up to the Scottish people - that is true sovereignty and independence.
318

kimba,

08/05/2008 16:38:23
So you think Norway is so great!Oil-rich Norway is taxing on cars
By Simon Romero
Published: SATURDAY, APRIL 30, 2005

OSLO: Norway, the world's third-largest oil exporter, is home to perhaps the world's most expensive gasoline.

But drivers here greet high pump prices of almost 11 kroner a liter, or $6.60 a gallon, with little more than a shrug.
319

kimba,

08/05/2008 16:40:24
continue from 381.Gasoline, of course, is not the only expensive commodity in Norway, a traditionally frugal and highly taxed nation. At a pub in Oslo, for instance, a pint of beer might cost the equivalent of $12 and an individual frozen pizza $16. But expensive gasoline is rare among large oil-producing countries that often subsidize fuel for their citizens. Gasoline prices in Norway have climbed 30 percent since 1998, outpacing a 15 percent increase in the consumer price index over that period, the national statistics bureau said.
320

kimba,

08/05/2008 16:43:08
And this is the nats idea of progress!
321

Scimiter,

08/05/2008 16:50:47
380 The point I was trying to make is you want to leave one union, where you have a big say in the running of the UK, to join the EU where Scotlands voice will mean next to nothing. Hardly independence, especially when Brussels is becoming more powerful.
322

voltaire's janny,

08/05/2008 16:54:04
379 There is a difference between autonomous representation in the EU and the dependent, frequently subordinated Scottish interest in the UK position.

This is normal. Fifty+ millions speak louder than 5.5

380 has the right of this. If Independent Scotland (or England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Burgh of Berwick and other sundry bits) wants an extraction from the EU (as did Iceland) so be it. That's a new subject. The likely status of Scotland indpendent of the UK and in the EU is an initial pro-rata contribution and indpendent negotiation afterwards.

For me, the EU demonstrably provides today what 18th century England perfidiously witheld, namely free trade, access to markets, stable economic zone and freedom from internal war. (OK the UK did end war within Britain).

Two unions is one too many and the one with the most asymmetry is the one that should end.
323

Resolutions,

08/05/2008 17:01:29
Kimba
Has it not occurred to you that Norway is entitled to run their own affairs as they see fit? They may not want a pint of beer( they are metric anyway) nor do they want a frozen pizza, neither of which can be categorised as a high standard of living anyway. They have a higher standard of living than we do, but they achieved that by their own efforts.
Now Scotland is entitled to decide how it will develop without reference to you and it has no intention of waiting 900 years as Norway had to. 300 is more than enough, but there is a lot of work to be done before the referendum in 2010 as planned.
As for Wendy and co - is anyone sure there is a suitable parallel universe for them? Perhaps you should join them there?
324

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:02:01
386. Can you tell me what inlfuence Scotland currently has in the EU. UK government papers state that the UK wanted to "sacrifice" the Scottish fisihng industry to further UK EU negotiation.

At present Scotland has no voice, and often the UK actively damages Scotland's interests in the EU - by sacrificng fishing, or when the UK opposed objective 1 funding for the Highlands of Scotland.

325

Scimiter,

08/05/2008 17:02:38
387 Fine, I have no problem with Scotland becoming an independant nation, if that is the wish of her people so be it.
As an Englishman though I to want independece, and would like England to leave the EU.
326

Scimiter,

uk 08/05/2008 17:06:46
392 You would have to ask a Scotsman that question namely Gordon Brown! I agree about the fishing industry in the UK, it was sold down the river to Brussels.
327

kimba,

08/05/2008 17:12:29
391. Norway can run however it wishes,my point is, that salmond and co wish to emulate them,guess that would include the high cost of living too.
328

kimba,

08/05/2008 17:15:37
390. That meths was nearly funny,keep working on it!
329

westview,

north of the border 08/05/2008 17:22:48
Kimba ,it is only a political "divorce" to use your emotive phrase. The friends and family that I have in England will still be just a few hours travel away after Scotland has full autonomy. I can travel to Ireland with no bother and it left the UK to stand on its own feet a wee while ago. It may be that the rule that is usual in UK politics ,that foreign cash should not be used to fund UK politics ,like Wendy's illegal funding fiasco, will be applied in a Scottish context ,so that Trade Unions in Scotland will not be allowed legaly to use English donations to sway the Scottish political process. That is what is comming and is the way it should be. The same goes for all the unionist parties in Scotland. They will have to fend for themselves. Scottish Conservatives with out the Unionist tag millstone round their necks would do far better in Scots elections. Lib dems could rise high in a free Scotland. Kimba, you could even visit north of the border and maybe even stay when you see what political freedom can do to improve Scotland.
330

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:24:37
.
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:24:38
.
332

kimba,

08/05/2008 17:27:46
399.I visit "north of the border" on a regular basis,my gran lives in Dundee,you nats all seem to have a "grass is greener" mentallity and it very rarely is.
333

kimba,

08/05/2008 17:29:13
403. chav!
334

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:34:13
404. Say please
335

allan58,

edinburgh 08/05/2008 17:37:21
So, Norway has a high cost of living? So what? We should be used to that. The New Tories economic miracle has seen to that here!! Is that a reason for denying a referendum?

I think not. As far as Scotland is concerned, independence may either be the greatest thing since the invention of sex or, the biggest disaster since Thatcher and the Old Tories reduced the country to an economic wasteland.

I haven't decided either way. However, I think I'd like to be given the freedom to choose for myself. If, as the "unionist" supporters say, there is little stomach for independence, then they can surely have little to fear from a referendum?

That's what really annoys me. With the arrogant presumption endemic to the breed , the "unionist" politicians imply that they "speak for the vast majority" and use that excuse to justify their refusal to allow us a say in the matter.

They are not "speaking for the vast majority". They are speaking in accordance with the official party line. This issue is nothing to with "threatening the union" and everything to do with loss of control & influence over 5 milion people!!

In any case, Gordon Brown tells us he is going to "listen" to what people are saying. Listen Gordon, give us a say!

As for poor old Hot Lips, I think she has done more to aid the cause of Independence tha anything the Nats could dream up. Perhaps Mr Salmond could offer her a job?
336

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:43:54
409. Sock sniffing Kimba-muncher, thanks for saying please, how cute..... hehehe
337

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 17:57:59
411. Jeez, that is one enormous pie, Spook - you must have been munching for days? And as for moist, those who were not washed out to sea when they tried (after were not crushed by a wobbly fat roll) say if you put your head up it you can hear the ocean, never mind smell it.
338

mike3,

Midlands 08/05/2008 18:00:56
So not all Scots Lab d--- heads have been sent to London.
339

 Ayrshire Scot™,

08/05/2008 18:16:41
414. Crab hunting with Kimba or crab nunting on Mount Kimba?

340

Trade-wind,

USA 08/05/2008 18:34:20
Tell you what lads and lassies. We will send you Hilliray and her husband. She wants to be leader
of something. Anything will do! This so she won't
be out done by Bill. Bill can handle Wee Windy
while Hilliray runs labor for Scotland. You won't
know the difference I promise. Hilly will want to
tax you to death though. They the dems believe the people are not smart enough to spend their money,so
they believe it is the duty of government to relieve you of your money. Then they will give it back in goods and services they feel you should have. You know like shoes or bread. We can't win, but then neither can you it seems.
341

Boggle fey the Bog,

08/05/2008 19:59:00
398 danielrober,08/05/2008 17:17:51

Plonker!!! just keep smokin the weed putty brain.

End of.
342

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 08/05/2008 20:56:29
Over 400 inane postings on this issue !! When Ayrshire Scot comes on the scene we really are scraping the barrel. If Scotland does achieve so called independence I would doubt if the EU would admit Scotland into membership anymore that it would admit the Channel Islands. We are inextricably linked as the British Isles.
343

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 22:03:41
#420 Stirling you want his babies don't you?
344

Independence? Bring it On!,

08/05/2008 22:54:53
Keech on a stick, what's up with Wee Dougie Alexander? He seems to have developed Iain Gray's facial tick.
345

C U Jimmy,

East Ayrshire 09/05/2008 02:36:04
Could Scotland survive on it's own..The British empire was built on the exploitation of it's colonies, and Scotland is one of the last, the loss of our previous colonies was the greed of Westminster, and to keep all the powdered wigs and the Royal elite in luxury, the people of the USA finally had enough and had to resort to force to get free.
Scotland will get home rule when the North Sea oil runs out, if it was not for the oil in Scottish waters England would have been bankrupt years ago.
346

charles stuart,

09/05/2008 03:22:03
it is time that the people of scotland stopped being so dependant on england the rest of the world has started to look outward it is time for scotland to again stand onits own two feet it must again look to its self for its future and its inner strenth it has in the past given the world so much the old people have become to dependent on the state but the future of the country is with the young you cant look to the past look forward be bright be faithfull to yourself and above all be free
347

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 09/05/2008 08:11:27
Wendy stay with us, you are a jewel in the SNP's manifesto, worth a 3 goal start, and I forgot we, the Scots, are playing at home.
348

Fairfax,

09/05/2008 09:57:50
Voltaire's Janny (387): "what 18th century England perfidiously witheld, namely free trade, access to markets,"

In what ways were free trade and access to English markets impeded after 1707?
349

voltaire's janny,

09/05/2008 12:46:33
The impediments, which I have no time to dig out for now all followed from a prejudicial interpretation of the following article in the treaty.

Access to English and foreign markets for Scots' produce were restricted. From memory, wool was one such, but I'd need to look it up.



Article 18 (common trade laws)
That the Laws concerning Regulation of Trade, Customs, and such Excises, to which Scotland is by virtue of this Treaty to be liable, be the same in Scotland, from and after the Union as in England; and that all other Laws, in use within the Kingdom of Scotland do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in the same force as before (except such as are contrary to or inconsistent with this Treaty) but alterable by the Parliament of Great Britain, With this difference betwixt the Laws concerning publick right Policy, and Civil Government, and those which concern private right and the Laws which concern publick right Policy and Civil Government may be made the same throughout the whole United Kingdom; but that no alteration be made in Laws which concern private Right, except for the evident utility of the subjects within Scotland.

350

westview,

09/05/2008 15:21:18
405--kimba. Sorry to disapoint you kimba, but I am not a "nat". I am not a member of any political party, just an ordinary person who lives north of the border. I am scunnerd though by the parcel of rouges that inhabit Westminster and are hanging on grimmly to the last vestiges of Empire and holding Scotland down with lies and deceits. Many of the folk who live north of the border, no matter where they were born must wonder at the waste of their hard earned tax money on ill thought out wars and millenium dome/ olympic money pits, by the Westminster expenses champions.
351

IndigenousCabbage,

UpAGumTree 09/05/2008 15:26:29
I have just come across a link. You may have read it but for those that have'nt here it is.

The truth buried by Westminster for thirty years:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

That will realy p**sh them of that call Scots freeloaders.
352

IndigenousCabbage,

FurtherUpTheGumTree 09/05/2008 15:31:36
By the way I was born in England, not my fault, with Scottish parents. My ancestors were one of the cleared clans. The English thought that sheep were worth more than human beings.

353

IndigenousCabbage,

09/05/2008 17:33:27
Just been doing more digging. The following link is very interesting!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7P3Zvunjms
354

bluehead,

edinburgh 10/05/2008 11:43:08
the SNP should show great gratitude to Wendy for her
great support

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.