Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Labour considers 'suicide' election

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 27 July 2008
PANICKING Labour ministers are considering a 'suicide election' to give the party a fresh start under a new leader, following their humiliating defeat at the hands of the SNP in the Glasgow East by-election.
Senior figures disillusioned with Gordon Brown want a senior Cabinet minister to take over the party leadership and head immediately to the polls either this autumn or next spring, even if defeat is the likely option.

They believe such a move would be better than Brown clinging on to office until 2010 when, they fear, the party would face a wipe-out on the scale of that inflicted on the Tories by Labour in 1997. Jack Straw, the Lord Chancellor, is being touted as the ideal stop-gap leader.

There were claims last night that MPs close to Straw were actively seeking support on behalf of the Justice Secretary.

One Labour MP is reported as claiming that backbencher George Howarth had told him Straw was "ready to tell Gordon that the game was up" so long as he had enough backing.

The Justice Secretary's spokesman insisted last night, however, that Straw had "not sanctioned this behaviour", adding that MPs needed to "calm down" over the crisis.

One minister said: "The worst case scenario for the Labour Party is that we carry on with Gordon as leader and then have an election at the time of his choosing.

"If we got rid of him and went for an immediate option, that would still be a better result for us than waiting for him. There is no one in the Labour Party who is capable of running the party worse than him."

"This isn't about Gordon any more," said another senior party figure. "This is about the Labour Party and the number of people who are looking at their jobs."

Other reports suggested one contender for the job, James Purnell, had formed a pact with Foreign Secretary David Miliband, promising not to stand in his way if Miliband stood following a Brown resignation.

One senior Scottish party figure said of the 'suicide' option: "We get it over now and we don't allow the Tories to build a swing like the one we had in 1997. The way things are going, we are heading for a Tory Party victory on the scale of 1997."

Last night, one Government source opposed to Brown said: "The Cabinet now has to do something. What is Alistair Darling going to do and what is Jack Straw going to do? We have to get rid of him. There is no support for him staying."

Those who back deposing Brown say that, even if they were to lose the snap election, it would be better than staying on in power. They say David Cameron's Conservatives would be forced into power without having prepared enough for the tough economic times ahead.

The panic move has gained credence after Labour's stunning slide was confirmed when the party lost Glasgow East, its 25th safest seat in Britain, to the SNP by 365 votes.

Labour MPs south of the border are thought to be demanding that the party effectively gives up on Scotland and sets about trying to win back middle England.

Sources close to the Prime Minister claimed that plotters were effectively throwing in the towel to the Tories.

Brown is coming under increasing pressure to provide an immediate package of economic relief. Union leaders who gathered at the party's national forum in Warwick yesterday declared their backing for a windfall tax on energy companies whose profits have increased as prices have risen.

More bad news for Brown came last night in an opinion poll which showed Labour trailing in third place among voters in the Tories' top 30 target constituencies. The survey, carried out by analysts CrosbyTextor, saw Labour slump to just 17% – 24 points behind the Tories and one worse off than the Lib Dems.

It is a disastrous turnaround for the governing party, which had a six point lead in the same poll a year ago, when Brown was enjoying a honeymoon period as a new PM.




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 July 2008 12:40 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

AJ Fife,

27/07/2008 00:20:18
The political earthquake continues!!

Another big well done to Mr Salmond and the team. The way the SNP are now shaping UK politics is a joy to behold!
2

karinxxx,

27/07/2008 00:28:08
here kenny farquarson said last week


43 Kenny Farquharson,20/07/2008 21:29:10
# 42 Jock

In almost 20 years of reporting Scottish politics I've been wrong about lots of things! If I'm wrong I'll be writing my mea culpa next Sunday.

could anyone point me in the direction of this mea culpa?
3

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 00:28:12
Would be nice to see the SNP bringing down a second labour government in a row!
4

,

27/07/2008 00:47:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

,

27/07/2008 00:48:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Jimmy Le Pie,

27/07/2008 00:49:23
My earlier posts disappeared.

I wonder who that could be????

A very sore loser perhaps????

Or an odious clown???

Will we ever find out???? :0)
7

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 00:49:58
#4 Well last time I checked Scotland was part of the UK (unfortunately) so they're perfectly able to do that.
8

Wee Pal Joe,

27/07/2008 00:50:46
If you think there'll soon be a "suicide election" you should get down the bookies and put money on it. Don't hold your breath waiting on a pay-out though.
9

,

27/07/2008 00:53:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

,

27/07/2008 00:56:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 00:56:45
#9 'You're wrong. Scotland doesn't hold the majority of seats of the UK when you last looked.'

Well since I didn't say that, I can't be wrong can about it, can I?
Perhaps your understanding of english is letting you down.
12

,

27/07/2008 01:05:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Eric D,

Scotland 27/07/2008 01:07:18
ZaNuLab are finished. They have wrecked society and betrayed the very people they were supposed to represent. The SNP can only offer the same repackaged failed policies, granted with a tartan twist . The Tories should disband and a new right of centre party should emerge to offer a proper alternative.
14

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 01:08:05
#12 I'd advise you against putting words into my mouth as anyone who wishes to can simply look at my posts above and see that you are lying.
If you wish to make yourself look ridiculous though, please go right ahead.
15

,

27/07/2008 01:10:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 27/07/2008 01:10:56
"This isn't about Gordon any more," said another senior party figure. "This is about the Labour Party and the number of people who are looking at their jobs."

I can only say that if Labour had looked after their voters they would not have any worries about their jobs.

If they continue to think Glasgow East was all about Bean , they may as well resign immediately.

17

Iainbroch,

Moray 27/07/2008 01:14:59
Barnes is an idiot! Liebour does not have the cash to fight an election!
We are looking at the last ever Liebaah govt in its death throes!
18

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 27/07/2008 01:15:05
BRING IT ON!!!! Oh please liebour, go for the election, for that result will bring on SCOTTISH INDEPENCE SOONER RATHER THAN LATER. BRING IT ON!!!!
19

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 01:15:57
#15 I'm bewildered why you're so bothered about this issue-even going so far to tell lies over it.
20

,

27/07/2008 01:17:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

indune1,

Canada 27/07/2008 01:19:53

Karin - you still up? Still pished?
22

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 01:23:06
#20 I just find it a bit sad that you felt it necessary to turn yourself into a liar over what is a fairly trivial issue.
23

Iainbroch,

Moray 27/07/2008 01:31:14
Next the Hootsman will be telling us that the Englsih want Salmond to come and save them? Edinburgh the new UK capital - about as believable as anything that I read in this Unionist rag or from any of its Cyber Pimps!
24

S'me,

Edinburgh 27/07/2008 01:34:31
Well, here comes 5 years of Tory Rule... well done SNP!
25

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 01:40:35
#24 Apparently it's not the SNP's fault!
26

,

27/07/2008 01:46:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 01:46:57
UM just fails to see it. The SNP has all but brought down the present Labour Government. It is only a matter of time before John Mason, one-time Glasgow Councillor and MP for Glasgow East has precipitated the Labour Party to ask their leader and PM to throw in the towel and bring about a 'suicide election' which may put Labour out of office for a decade. The SNP don't need to put up candidates in England or Wales or even hold the balance of power at Westminster. The Labour Party is now in such a state of headless paralysis that they will implode quite satisfactorily on its own.
28

,

27/07/2008 01:51:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

,

27/07/2008 01:52:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

Clydesdale,

Lanarkshire 27/07/2008 01:56:28
Um - the Tories cannot bring down a Labour govt unless they get an overall majority of seats at Westminster. They look very good in the polls just now because Labour are so shockingly bad but they have still to outline their own policies. In the event of a hung parliament then smaller parties would have considerable influence (look at the importance of the Ulster Unionists during the 42 day vote when Labour back benchers revolted). The SNP already have brought down a Labour government - in 1979. With the economy in a complete mess and with the betrayal over the 1979 referendum (due to the disgraceful imposition of the 40% rule) the SNP withdrew their support and Labour lost a no confidence vote.
31

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 01:58:24
UM You still fail to see it. The result in Glasgow East (The SNP win) is the precipitating factor that has finally sealed Gordon Brown's fate. Not the English local elections, not the London mayoral election, not Nantwich & Crewe, not Henley. The deciding factor has been the SNP success despite all that Labour and the Scottish media could throw at trying to retain Labour's 3rd safest Westminster seat in Scotland and 25th in the UK. The Tories and the Libdems were very poor also-rans in the contest.
32

Edward,

27/07/2008 02:00:21
'Labour MPs south of the border are thought to be demanding that the party effectively gives up on Scotland and sets about trying to win back middle England'
Havnt they done that already?
Or is this just now more official?
I would be very happy if Labour in London did cut loose the Labour Party in Scotland and let Scottish Labour evolve into a true party of Scotland for Scotland. The question is, will this happen just before Independence or after? If the Scottish Labour party want to survive they must evolve and that s not about paying lip service to the Scottish people, but start dealing with Scotland as a nation and back Independence, before the country does become Independent and not after, as if it only backs it after, it will be seen as cronies just paying lip service again!
33

,

27/07/2008 02:00:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

,

27/07/2008 02:03:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 02:11:04
I guess UM you are posting from England as your knowledge of the Scottish political scene is rather limited. To claim that Labour lost the election but that the SNP did not win it, is to fail to understand that the contest was a trial between two competing governments as to who was perceived to be the better. The SNP government at Holyrood was found to be more popular than the Labour one at Westminster, even in a constituency which hitherto been staunchly Labour. Indeed, in almost all the hustings debates which were televised nationally, two on the BBC and one on STV, it was largely devolved matters that occupied most discussion. Reserved matters such as Tax, Social Security, Defence and Foreign policy were hardly covered despite the fact that the successful candidate would have a say and vote only on those subjects. The SNP candidate, John Mason won on the record of the SNP government. Margaret Curran of Labour lost on the record of Gordon Brown's record in Government.
36

,

27/07/2008 02:17:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Huntly loon,

Abedeenshire 27/07/2008 02:37:50
UM You really are confused. I will keep things simple for you.
1) It was a UK byelection.
2) The SNP candidate won and he will go to Westminster.
3) Scottish electorates, politicians and media will discuss devolved and reserved matters without distinguishing that they are dealt with in either Holyrood or Westminster as appropriate. Matters such as Health, Education, Universities, Law & Order,Criminal and Civil Law, Local Government, Transport, Agriculture and Fishing, Housing, Economic Development, Business rates are all devolved matters. These tend to be matters which directly impinge on ordinary peoples lives in a way that defence and foreign policy does not. For over a year the SNP have been in power in Scotland and the voters have had a chance to compare an SNP Government with a Labour Government at Westminster and the previous Labour/Libdem coalition government at Holyrood. The SNP government policies have been popular and Alex Salmond and the SNP are still having their political honeymoon which for Gordon Brown lasted all of three months. The SNP has delivered a council tax freeze, reduction in precription charges with a view to abolition, increased police on the streets, abolition of student tuition fees, maintaining free personal care for the elderly, increased council housing etc. That is why the SNP won. They are the government. It was not a protest vote, as for the Libdems in England, who are not likely to be called to account. The SNP can be and are called to account and have to might on their record in government. That is why the SNP won and they will win many more seats at future elections. They have most MSPs, most councillors, and are ahead in polls for Holyrood and Westminster elections.
38

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 02:46:06


Um, at 02:17:10,

So the SNP admit that the Glasgow East vote had nothing to do with Independence eh? Wrong! The SNP turned the by-election into a popularity contest between the two Governments - Holyrood and Westminster.

Holyrood won!

And what's more, read this about the SNP canvassing of the Glasgow East constituency (from an interview in the Sunday Express) -


"Meanwhile, Mr Salmond also revealed that an independence poll in Glasgow East showed 46 per cent were in favour of breaking up the Union, with just 28 per cent against and 26 per cent undecided, although he admitted there was still a lot to do before that vote was repeated across the country.

He said: “Unbeknown to virtually every commentator we polled the whole of Glasgow East on independence and got very, very encouraging results. The fact the independence vote was higher than SNP vote and the SNP vote was pretty high! We’ve got work to do but its very encouraging, that in what was previously regarded as a heartland area there is so much support for independence.”


So actually the SNP vote would appear to understate the support there for Independence. Independence is coming Mr Um. You saying it is not wont halt it.

Scottish Independence - not IF but WHEN.
Answer - 2010!


39

,

27/07/2008 02:47:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Guga II,

Rockall 27/07/2008 02:47:36
Ignore that troll that calls himself Um. he is spouting garbage to try and muddy the waters.

As for the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, how can they afford to go for an election. Aren't they in debt to the tune of around £30 million? It's not as if they can sell off any more peerages at the moment to raise the money.

Obviously their MPs are panicking at the moment. They can see themselves having their snouts kicked out of the trough, and having to mix with the plebs again rather than lording it over them. No more lying, dodgy expenses claims, large salaries and innumerable freebies.

As for the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch), as long as they remain as puppets under London control, and continue to oppose independence for Scotland, they will also be doomed.

41

,

27/07/2008 02:48:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 02:55:10


Um, I name you AM2!

Suits me fine if you don't believe the canvassing returns from Glasgow East on Independence. Keep your head in that sand! I'm just trying to lessen the shock of Independence for you by getting you at least round to the possibility it MAY happen. Hope you don't have a weak heart!

43

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 02:55:37
UM you are still confused
I don't know whether you are thick or merely pretending to be.
IT WAS NOT A HOLYROOD BYELECTION
IT WAS A WESTMINSTER BYELECTION
Nevertheless the candidates discussed political issues which were within the scope of Holyrood.
The electorate compared the effectiveness of the two governments at Holyrood and Westminster, and despite the fact that what the SNP government had delivered was not technically relevant to the byelection, they sought to elect the Scottish Nationalist and not the Labour candidate. Have I explained myself better?
44

,

27/07/2008 03:05:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

,

27/07/2008 03:06:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Huntly loon,

27/07/2008 03:10:45
UM They were not voting for or against Holyrood at a Westminster election.
The Voters of Glasgow east liked what the SNP were doing at Holyrood
They did not like what Labour was doing at Westminster.
They prefered the SNP to Labour and wished to send the SNP man and not the Labour woman to represent them at Westminster.
47

,

27/07/2008 03:14:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

Alan B,

27/07/2008 03:16:55
Labour need to dump brown. While reid would be their best candidate for leader, they really need someone english and Alan Johnston is the only person i can see who could do the job. He should bring reid in as chancellor. Reid would take Osbourne apart.

Momentum is a funny thing and their is no real cameron appeal. Cameron is no Salmond.

What labour should do with a new leadership is ensure competence and admit mistakes of the past showing how these mistakes will be rectified. They also need to be quite brave in their approach.

1)economy - they should talk of their successes but admit brown should not have run up so much deficit. They should also state personal debt is too high and that the government failed to control house price inflation. They nned to show how they will address this. People need to understand the govermnet understands what it has done wrong.

2)introduce rules to clean up politics and westminter expenses and root out all their corrupt mps. From michale martin to all those with dodgy donations in the deputy leadership contest.

3)sort out the constitution. starting with stop picking fights with scottish parliament. Introducing fiscal autonomy would be an ideal change. possibly abolish house of lords and create english parliament.

4)stop all the 42 days dentention without trial nonsense and anyother policy that is going to pick a fight with their backbenchers.





49

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 03:18:26


Um, I'm hurt. My name is no joke. I'll have you know that I stayed up for the result of the by-election and then stayed up a bit more to listen to the pearls of wisdom from wee Dougie Alexander.

I'm a junkie for it - I can't help it.

You and I clearly have differing views on Scotlands furture. I am happy to accept your view exists eveif I don't agree with it. I hope you can accept that many Scots favour Independence and one day it MAY happen. Nothing is impossible, no?

50

Clydesdale,

Lanarkshire 27/07/2008 03:21:06
Margaret Curran largely focused on areas devolved to Holyrood - the great irony was that she already represented constituents in these areas as an MSP. She did this to deflect attention away from the disaster of the Westminster govt (Trident, Iraq, 10p tax, cost of living, the issues surrounding the previous Glasgow East MP etc). Curran attacked the SNP on devolved issues like policing and of course also focused on independence. The SNP did attack Labour on reserved matters and their record at Westminster but also played up their successes and popularity at Holyrood. Like it or not Um Holyrood was pitted against Westminster in this election.
51

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 03:22:15
UM I will explain more simply
It was a fight between the SNP and Labour
The SNP are in power in Holyrood, Labour are in power in Westminster
The electorate could judge between the SNP in government at Holyrood and Labour in government at Westminster.
As a result the majority considered that the SNP were better than Labour and accordingly elected the SNP candidate
It had everything to do with Holyrood vis-a-vis Westminster
52

,

27/07/2008 03:23:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

Alan B,

27/07/2008 03:24:22
#49 "It was nothing to do with Holyrood V Westminster as Alex Salmond pretended"

That is not what salmond did. He tried to make it choice between the government in holyrood and the government in westminster. ie vote snp if you think the snp are doing better in government than labour. It was an election tactic and it was no pretence. Many people will probably vote for just that reason.

ie they like what the snp have done so far during their term in office and are fed up with labours failures.
54

,

27/07/2008 03:25:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

Alan B,

27/07/2008 03:28:17
#54 U cannot be serious. Scotland is more likely to go independent if the tories get voted in.
56

,

27/07/2008 03:30:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 03:30:20
Um,

"There is only one way that independence will happen and that is Labour's repeated tax rises without anything being given back to the people taxed."

Like at the moment you mean? We Scots really feel the benefit of Trident.

Immoral and hideously expensive though Trident is, Independence will only happen when the people of Scotland VOTE for it at the Independence Referendum in 2010. They may not vote for it in 2010 of course, but I know what side my money is on.
58

,

27/07/2008 03:36:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 03:41:28
UM Ok, I'll make it simpler for you. The electorate considered the effectiveness and popularity of the governing parties in power at Holyrood and Westminster, and having compared the two governing parties and chose the candidate of the SNP over Labour.
I have treated your posts with respect and have tried to explain the reasons for the Glasgow East result as you seemed to have a limited understanding of the Scottish political scene.

It was uncalled for to call me a dolt and an unthinking follower of Alex Salmond. You have made it quite clear from your posts that you are merely a provocateur and there is no point in trying to discuss this matter with you.
60

Clydesdale,

27/07/2008 03:43:47
Um, you said - "The two institutions never oppose each other. Alex Salmond just wants to trick dolts like you by association."

Not quite - the SNP Govt is completely opposed to Trident and son of Trident. They have already stated that, as they control transport (devolved matter), they will use their powers over Scottish roads to block the movement of nuclear missiles in Scotland. Only the Tory MSPs would be a certainty to vote against this proposal at Holyrood as Scottish Labour are completely divided over Trident because it is a huge vote loser in Scotland. Holyrood therefore opposes Westminster over nuclear weapons.
61

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 03:44:57


Come on Um, debate. (I've got thick skin, insults wont work!)

Why is it irrelevant to talk about the Independence Referendum. If carried, this would usher in the biggest political change in this country since the signing of the Act of Union in 1707.

This MAY JUST happen! If I can accept that the Independence Movement MAY FAIL in 2010 - surely you can accept that they MAY WIN. I know you dont WANT them to win and wont vote for it, that's your vote to do with what you wish.

Do you, or you not accept that there MAY be a Referendum?

Do you, or do you not accept that in that Referendum one side will win? Are you a democrat?

62

,

27/07/2008 03:45:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
63

,

27/07/2008 03:47:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

,

27/07/2008 03:48:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

,

27/07/2008 03:49:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 03:51:29


Bzzz! Prevarication!

Go on answer the questions:

Do you, or you not accept that there MAY be a Referendum?

Do you, or do you not accept that in that Referendum one side will win?

Are you a democrat?


67

Nevsky,

Moscow 27/07/2008 03:55:12
So Labour are going to give up on Scotland (it's heartland snce the party's inception) and concentrate on winning the vote in middle England. More good news for the SNP and as i predicted hehe it's just the beginning of the end for the British Labour Party..shame that lol
68

Clydesdale,

27/07/2008 03:58:13
Um - It is the majority vote which controls Holyrood just as it is the majority which controls Westminster. In Holyood it has to be a consensus between more than one party to get a majority. Sometimes the govt at Westminster also needs the help of other parties to help it pass legislation due to backbench revolts (eg when Scottish Labour MPs rebelled over the renewal of Trident and the Conservatives supported the govt). If a majority of MSPs at Holyrood oppose Westminster policy does this not mean that Holyrood opposes Westminster over policy?
69

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 03:59:43


Mr Um, I'm waiting...

Go on answer the questions (you know you want to):

Do you, or you not accept that there MAY be a Referendum?

Do you, or do you not accept that in that Referendum one side will win?

Are you a democrat?
70

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 04:02:50
Be afraid be very afraid, it looks like
mad Baron Zebedee is going to sort everything out for Labour.

Baron Foulkes - "go in, all guns firing"

see - tinyurl.com/5vopba
71

,

27/07/2008 04:03:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 27/07/2008 04:04:09

Murdo Fraser was a young Tory when he said a Scottish parliament would put us on the slippery slope to Independece .

Well Murdo you were right the momentum is with us it is like a Rugby scrum you guys ( Unionists have no studs in your boots and you are getting pushed back inch by inch )

Alex Salmond is the most astute politician in the whole UK .

He has played Labour of Tory and Tory of Labour

Using Chess the SNP are starting the end game but still have a couple of moves before checkmate
73

Clydesdale,

27/07/2008 04:04:20
I don't accept that the SNP Govt = Holyrood either! In earlier posts I have alluded to consensus politics and I also mentioned that only the Tory MSPs would definately vote against the SNP over plans to block the transportation of nuclear weapons- this infers that the other parties would either support, abstain, or, in Labour's case, be split over the issue.
74

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 27/07/2008 04:09:56
72

Why does anyone the Labour party party suggests as leader make me snigger and think bring it on
75

Clydesdale,

27/07/2008 04:20:13
In terms of hierarchy - Westminster remains superior as it holds the purse strings and in theory it could revoke the Scotland Act which created the Scottish Parliament, but of course this cannot happen as the vast majority of people in Scotland not only support the Holyrood parliament but want to either extend its powers or see it become independent from Westminster control. There is also no clear line between devolved and reserved issues - there are many grey areas - it wasn't so bad between both parliaments when the Lib/Lab coalition were in power because they slavishly followed Westminster instructions. But in the last year this has clearly started to change over many issues from Al-Megrahi to Nuclear Power Stations.
76

Clydesdale,

27/07/2008 04:41:45
If standing up for Scotland means, in the words of Foulkes, 'picking fights with Westminster' then to quote another failed Labour politician 'Bring it On'! It seems inevitable that increasingly Scottish interests will conflict with wider UK interests. Thank God we now have a party in power which does not takes its line from Westminster. The old scare stories of being too small and too poor to seek independence no longer works - people are turning away from the negative politics of Labour in their thousands.
77

LEAL,

27/07/2008 05:28:55
Labour are boring.They have nothing new or different to offer.They want to stop Scotland doing anything new or different,despite the will of the Scottish people.Dull,boring,negative,unelectable.
78

terry osser,

morden 27/07/2008 05:38:37
if reid and johnson are the best nulab have to offer then tories are home and dry
79

Birnamo,

Edinburgh 27/07/2008 06:08:03
How about Westminster committing suicide, Alex Salmond becoming Prime Minister at Holyrood and Scotland giving England a devolved assembly in London ?

Seems only fair that we should rule England for the next 300 years !
80

Pocket Dictionary,

27/07/2008 06:11:23
As a clergyman's son, Gordon is surely familiar with the Biblical stories. Maybe then he sees himself as a new Moses figure. Not so much as taking us to a promised land, but spending 40 years leading Labour in the wilderness!
81

Wisnaeme,

wisnae there 27/07/2008 06:35:18

It's all falling apart for them.

...and in truth, if this so called people's party and members of it therein had retained a modicum of respect for competency, transparency, accountability and codes of conduct befitting public office duties, whether it be moral values or whatever; they would not have found themselves in this position of public distrust and dislike. The use of "it's within Westmidden rules" as an excuse for dismissal of fiscal malpractice or irregularities perpetrated by New Labour or any other public office holder would not be tolerated or condoned by any other employer outwith Westmidden. Why should we bear the cost to ourselves? Why should we tolerate it.New Labour were given a position of trust. They have abused that trust without end. It's time for the public to bring them to account for themselves and for the country to decide whether new Labour are fit for the purpose of governance or not.

I have no confidence in this UK government.
I have no trust in this New Labour administration.
I do not deem them by their actions to be competent
or truthful.
Nor do I consider them to be fit for purpose or best value.

Time they were gone.
.
82

Teamdroid,

27/07/2008 06:51:50
5 - Gordon McMaster's suicide was truly one of Scottish politics biggest tragedies. Not for the man himself, sad as that was, but because it allowed the thoroughly vile Douglas Alexander to enter Parliament in the subsequent by-election.
83

bluehead,

edinburgh 27/07/2008 07:05:32
nothing can save labour now,and quite rightly so,
what they have done to this country will be unforgiven
for ever,they have made a dreadful mess of Britain,
who would ever have thought we would be taking orders from people we do not know,never voted for,and don't even speak their language
even with the so-called human rights which only operates by giving one person their rights means taking another's away,they churn out laws in such
a conveyor belt stile,that they even have the poor old cops running about in a daze,
they will lose the next election,and let us hope they are kept out of power for ever.
84

Faux Cu,

Palais Bourbon 27/07/2008 07:50:08
I keep looking up into the sky expecting to see the Hale Bob comet making a return visit.

Labour have become a suicide cult.

an I'm lovin it!
85

donald,

glasgow 27/07/2008 08:05:43
ANYTHING LABOUR DOES FROM NOW ON WILL BE SUICIDAL.
THEY'LL BE DAMNED IF THEY DO AND DOOMED IF THEY DON'T.
86

donald,

glasgow 27/07/2008 08:07:12
Best retire now and salt away their personal ill gotten gains
87

Reject London,

DUNDEE 27/07/2008 08:14:06
Suicide seems too kind - how about a long painful death - they are about half way through in any case!
88

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 27/07/2008 08:22:05
No matter what they do, Liebore are finished. Not a moment too soon.

Hard luck UM...or is that AM2? :-)
89

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 27/07/2008 08:22:48
Blaming the SNP for NEW Labour losing the next election must mean it was the SNP's fault for not winning enough seats the last time, thereby allowing a bunch of incompetent, greedy fools into power.
90

donald,

glasgow 27/07/2008 08:25:15
This is where I get to, when I try to click on the Hoots online poll.
91

open,

west coast 27/07/2008 08:35:21
The obsession of both major political parties Labour and Tory with what can only be described as a fascist intolerance of the weakest and poorest sections of British society is reminiscent of TYRANT THATCHER.

The vast bulk of the UK should have leaders in power who do not constantly use the poor as victims for their whipping boys.The UK is by the day becoming one of the most intolerant and spied on societies across the globe.
We have those seeking power obsessed with a "1984" agenda and all UK citizens being treated like enemies of the state.

Unless the national media can accommodate a wider spectrum of political parties, that are NOT in that mould, and continue to give platforms only to TWO major political parties with a history of sleaze and corruption the UK is doomed.
How can we see political change for the better when daily we have two agendas rammed down our throats that show very little difference in policy that sees the proliferation of warmongering ,surveillance, vast inequality and constants attacks on the poorest and weakest sections of British society.

We should be ashamed, NOT giving platforms to parties that are headed by bully boys who constantly require to impose their fascism on those least able to protect themselves from draconian and tyrannical abuse of powers .

A GREAT leader, which is a rarity in the UK, is one who gains power without abusing it. Which Prime Minister in the last 100 years has achieved anything close to that goal?

LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
92

allan58,

edinburgh 27/07/2008 08:41:10
It were probably for the best if an election was to be called this year. It would be kinder than letting New "Labour" die a long, lingering & painful death. Besides, we'd only be replacing one party leader with another. Theres practically no difference between New "Labour " and the Tories anyway.

Oh, by the way, since when did the Tories give Taxes back to the taxed? I seem to recall VAT doubled to 17.5%, abolition of MIRAS, the
cutting of the married couples ( and other) allowances, increases in national insaurance contribitions?

No, as an individual, I saw little benefit from so-called Tory "tax cuts". I didn't believe it then & I don't believe it now. Even Ken Clarke admitted that his 1992 budget INCREASED taxes by the equivalent of 7p in the pound. I actually ended up being £300 a year WORSE off as a result of the tax increases!

The fact that the New Tories increased the tax burden further is irrelevant. We won't see any of it back.
93

africanj,

Yokohama, Japan 27/07/2008 08:47:40
extended greetings, but Mexican Oil Price rigging situation is more crucial than "Mr. Gordon the Great" tampering his constituency towards his private suicide election mission. Indeed, "those" were the "bygone" days.
94

BK,

Cyberspace 27/07/2008 08:50:09
Great . The Labour Party committing suicide in what could be the last ever UK election!
95

StopTheNumpties,

the real world 27/07/2008 09:14:06
The Scottish Numpty Party had less to do with winning the election than Labor losing it. As long as it restricts its candidates to Scotland, it can't bring down the government of someplace else. As the story points out, it's Labor, not the numpties that are talking about bringing down the Scot, Gordon Brown, in a "suicide" election. Glad to see that the antiBlairites are so happy with the results of their efforts. Be careful what you wish for and for heaven's sake remember that Salmond doesn't have a vision - he's just seeing things. Scotland deserves better.
96

,

27/07/2008 09:19:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Calgacas,

27/07/2008 09:40:17
90
Definitely AM2, no two people could spout the same drivel. Affectionately known as the "Ranter, and the "Twitterer. Public opinion is divided as to whether it Rants as it Twitters, or Twitters as it Rants.
98

open,

west coast 27/07/2008 09:51:14
http://www.educate-yourself.org/nwo/

The New World Order (NWO)
Browns New World Order speech at
http://www.youtube.com/v/Uv5cqh26CC0

“There is a worldwide conspiracy being orchestrated by an elite group of genetically related individuals which include many of the very wealthy, politically powerful, and corporate elite of the world, as well as members of the so-called Black Nobility [nothing to do with the color of one's skin] of Europe whose goal is to create a One World (fascist) Government, stripped of nationalistic and regional boundaries, that is obedient to their agenda.

Events are moving at a frightening pace toward the total implementation of that agenda which includes utilizing mass Mind Control of an unprecedented scale and scope. You need to inform yourself of this diabolical scheme and take steps to thwart their agenda. Their intention is to affect complete and total control over every human being on the planet and to dramatically reduce the world's population by 5.5 Billion people.
99

Herne the Hunter,

All of Scotland 27/07/2008 09:57:32
What was their song again,when Blair was elected....
"Things can only get better!"

I think the words of the Gambler are more appropriate
"Know when to hold them ,know when to fold them, and know when to walk away" and that was how Blair handed over the poisoned chalice.
100

,

27/07/2008 10:04:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/07/2008 10:10:27
#105 Another great prediction. How did your last one work out?
102

snoozyowl,

Wales 27/07/2008 10:13:33
Panic is caused by internal review of upcoming economic problems. The would rather lose and let Cameron take the blame.Are you prepared for the gas and electricity prices this winter? With food and car fuel also rocketing, what are you going to give up?
103

ehlndh,

London 27/07/2008 10:15:17
The postorrhoeal Um seems aptly named.
The traditional indicator of the non-incisive mind precedes every utterance of tramline thinking. Arguments advanced on either side of the track cannot be addressed. Responses can only be repetitions of thoughts previously evolved, no doubt after strugglesome cogitation.
Just like many in the UK government, and likely to be equally successful.
104

Faux Cu,

Palais Bourbon 27/07/2008 10:16:35
#104

Can I suggest

The Urban Spaceman by The Bonzo Dog Band

wrt To Gordon Brown and Mags Curran

I’m the urban spaceman, baby; I’ve got speed
I’ve got everything I need
I’m the urban spaceman, baby; I can fly
I’m a supersonic guy

I don’t need pleasure
I don’t feel pain
If you were to knock me down I’d just get up again
I’m the urban spaceman, baby; I’m makin’ out
I’m all about

(instrumental)

I wake up every morning with a smile upon my face
My natural exuberance spills out all over the place

I’m the urban spaceman, I’m intelligent and clean
Know what I mean?
I’m the urban spaceman, as a lover second to none
It’s a lot of fun

I never let my friends down
I’ve never made a boob
I’m a glossy magazine, an advert in the tube

I’m the urban spaceman, baby; here comes the twist--
I don’t exist



Especially good is the last line
105

,

27/07/2008 10:22:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
106

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 10:27:39
#110 - dame brammage - Another reason why page down was invented.


SCROLL PAST THE TROLL!
107

Publius,

Girvan 27/07/2008 10:28:12
Brown is history. Only remaining question for Labour is whether they have catastrophe with Brown in 2010 or a disaster with somebody else.
The interesting questions are (1) how will a Tory government at Westminster get on with an SNP government in Edinburgh? (2) will the Tories pull back some votes and seats in Scotland in 2010? My guess is that they will pull back some votes and will finish up with 4 or 5 seats.
108

,

27/07/2008 10:31:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
109

brusque,

27/07/2008 10:36:29
The overt abuse of the power of Government started with Thatcher........supported by the media.

It continued unabated with Blair, and now poor downtrodden, and inept, Gordon Brown is left to shoulder the blame.

He is a numpty, but I don't think he had any malicious intent, unlike his two predecessors.

The call to the trough is just too strong for any Politician to withstand. Ask David Marshall!!
110

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 27/07/2008 10:40:39
It sounds like separation will be very painful..... i.e. the removing of snouts from troughs!

Goodbye Gordon Brown - and don't come back to Fife!

"This isn't about Gordon any more," said another senior party figure. "This is about the Labour Party and the number of people who are looking at their jobs."
111

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 10:44:54
#116 - Just llike when they contrived new Labour.
112

,

27/07/2008 10:45:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
113

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 10:46:20
#113 - Dame Brammage - If I thought your question was a genuine one I would answer, however as it's you i just

SCROLL THE TROLL!
114

,

27/07/2008 10:47:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
115

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 10:48:10
122- SCROLL!
116

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 10:51:34
"Labour MPs south of the border are thought to be demanding that the party effectively gives up on Scotland and sets about trying to win back middle England."

Gordon Brown could be the last Scottish leader of the British Labour Party since the Scottish dimension seems to be regarded as an electoral liability (in part because of devolution and the West Lothian Question). Other senior British Government posts could also be 'off-limits' to Scots. Once this takes effect the game's up. Unionist politicians in Scotland will turn to Holyrood for their ambitions and will, in turn, want Holyrood to have power and status worthy of those ambitions.
117

GM,

27/07/2008 10:52:29
Trollometer Score - (1 to 10)
===============================

UM
Originality - 2
Replies to troll - 5
Frustration level generated - 1
Stealth score - 0

Overall - 2/10

not a bad effort in terms of the number of replies you generated, but poorly let down by the 'obvious' nature of the troll. Do try in future to be a bit more stealthy i.e. dont make it so obvious you are trolling and you will increase score in all other areas.
118

GM,

27/07/2008 10:54:16
@122

Ah, so you have come back out your shell and let me see...

oh yes, just posting abusive dross about the SNP with nothing either original or positive to say. Keep it up, it works wonders as has been proven time and again over the last 18 months to 2 years.

thanks for your contribution. The more negative unionists get, the more they lose!
119

,

27/07/2008 10:56:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
120

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 10:57:20
#110
"Tell me about the post independence policies that Salmond and his cabinet of six have worked out. Or, have they so little confidence in their own predictions that they have not bothered to work on that? Or, maybe they are too coy to tell us, or, more likely it is that Brain Souter hasn't told them what to say yet? You can't accuse Salmond of being coy when it suits him, why so coy now?"

If Mr. Salmond and the Cabinet not only devised such policies but publicised them I suspect the response from unionists would be that he, and they, are megalomaniacs!

"Remind me, how did that "Free by '93" thing work out!"

Very well, it raised aspirations and expectations, without that we would not have a Scottish Parliament back in existence or be so close to actually acheiving independence.
121

,

27/07/2008 10:59:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
122

GM,

27/07/2008 11:01:25
@113

I'll help answer it for you -


The SNP plan is to simply take the tolls of sefl-government and apply them the same as every other (independent) country in the world.

Simple really.



One of the things you unionists and labour/tory/liberal folks seem to have forgotten is that in an independent scotland, your favoured party will have a huge chance to democratically be part of the success story.

Once labour/tory/liberal have adapted to the situation, then they run for parliament as normal in scotland. Labour surely must feel they would have a reasonable chance (in time) to reclaim some of their power in scotland?

Independence does not mean a one party state. It simply means scotland gets on with governing itself and electing whatever party seems right to the people at the time.

If *I* was labour right now, I'd be grabbing independence with both hands.
123

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 11:02:40
'In any case, David Cameron will never negotiate away the Union, never and the SNP will be impotent to make him.'

How nice to see your fervent democratic ideals on display! If the Scottish people vote for independence then they will get it. It's as simple as that.
124

GM,

27/07/2008 11:03:51
correction
"The SNP plan is to simply take the tools of self-government..."


tolls! now that was freudian.
125

,

27/07/2008 11:04:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 11:04:53
'If *I* was labour right now, I'd be grabbing independence with both hands.'

There is known support for independence within the labour party and amongst labour voters. Labour is likely to be out of power for a long time at Westminster after the next general election. I wouldn't be suprised to hear more of these voices heard within the party.
127

GM,

27/07/2008 11:05:01
@139

yes, even David Cameron knows there are more than a few torys who would cut scotland loose in a heartbeat...
128

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 11:06:24
'The SNP will not hold the balance of power at Westminster and they will no get 20 Westminster seats eaither. They will also lose Salmond's independence referendum.'

Really, and on what authority are you telling us this?
129

GM,

27/07/2008 11:07:12
@141
and as predictions go, I'd have to ask, how do you feel your own track record looks?
130

,

27/07/2008 11:10:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
131

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 11:10:59
#137
Spook
Great in 2008?
Divine in 2009?
132

Denis,

27/07/2008 11:12:35
With or without Brown, there won't be an early general election while there's still a chance that the Irish will vote "yes" in a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

The Tories have promised that they would hold a referendum, but only if the treaty had not come into force (why?), and a British referendum would definitively kill it.

So Labour must block the Tories from office for as long as possible, which could mean until Thursday April 29th 2010.

Those Labour MPs who co-operate will be looked after by the party and by the EU; those who show disloyalty and cause trouble will regret it.
133

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 11:13:16
#148 Well you'd be wrong. If the Scottish people vote for independence then they will get it. I haven't heard David Cameron say that he'd deny the result of any such referendum, perhaps you know differently.
134

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 11:14:07
Interesting post and technique for digital democracy and smiting the untruthful ones.Found it on the her lad , authored by the Scotsman journos most hated poster.

http://tinyurl/stickitupthehootsmon/

save too
c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc
135

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 11:15:26
#152 Spook
Heaven in 2010?
2011?

136

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 11:16:13
tinyurl.com/stickitupthehootsmon

sorry url typo
137

,

27/07/2008 11:18:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
138

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 11:18:46
#158
Spook
I'll settle for that!
139

brownlie,

27/07/2008 11:19:03
110 Paisley Pete

Before you lecture anyone on violence perhaps you can tell us why you had to twice change your moniker to the vomit-inducing present one?

Do you not realise that every decent reader and poster regards as despicable and vile the suggestion implicit in your moniker that only brain-damaged individuals would support the SNP?

Do you further realise that every time you post your sick moniker that it is offensive and insulting to individuals who, through no fault of their own, have the misfortune to suffer from this appalling disability?

140

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 11:19:39
#158 - first team in the olympics 2012 , in London :-)
141

Utterly Ashamed,

27/07/2008 11:20:50
#162 - Just call him dame Brammage - He dusnae like it up him!
142

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 11:22:53
Just think, if Gordon Brown had come to Glasgow East and led from the front (okay, pigs might fly) he might have won. If he had voted against the 'John Lewis List' and insisted his MPs did like wise he and they wouldn't look quite so sleazy. I could go on. Much of Mr. Brown's, and Labour's, problems are self-inflicted but sice they have looked after themselves very generously but failed to give the same consideration to the voters I have no sympathy.
143

,

27/07/2008 11:26:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
144

brownlie,

27/07/2008 11:26:41
157 Spook

Greetings, Spooky, don't tell me you prefer green to pink. What a disappointment to those of us of the "ooh err" brigade!

Furthermore, I thought I saw you outside at the poll count wearing an Armani suit. Was it really you? I thought the Waitrose head-dress was a bit of a giveaway!
145

,

27/07/2008 11:26:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
146

,

27/07/2008 11:27:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
147

,

27/07/2008 11:30:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
148

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 27/07/2008 11:31:27
Suicide yes, election no..
149

,

27/07/2008 11:32:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
150

GM,

27/07/2008 11:32:48
@171

I assume you mean AM2 in another thread.

He doesn't do that mate - he takes his orders directly from 'The Scotsman' who tip him off to when the stories go live.
151

,

27/07/2008 11:34:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
152

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 11:34:26
#170 'He is hardly likely to say that is he. Besides, when did anything any politician said have any meaning. They say what people like you want to hear.'

I'm surprised to read you saying that given that you previously said 'In any case, David Cameron will never negotiate away the Union, never and the SNP will be impotent to make him.'

Odd that you can be so certain about that when you don't trust anything he says!

153

brownlie,

27/07/2008 11:41:48
174 Paisley Pete

In future do not address any posts to me under your present moniker. They will be ignored and, hopefully, this will be contagious!!
154

Graham Barnes,

Gravesend 27/07/2008 11:42:00
It's all very well the rest of the Labour party blaming Gordon Brown just because he's a bad leader, but he doesn't make all the decisions. He is being used as a scapegoat for all that is wrong with the party; a party that, through bad decisions and bad policies, has brought the country to its knees. Down here, unfortunately, we don't have the SNP to take over, and it looks as if we're going to be saddled again with the tories. I don't know if that is reason to welcome an election or want it postponed. OUt of the frying pan into the fire.
155

,

27/07/2008 11:44:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
156

,

27/07/2008 11:47:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

,

27/07/2008 11:50:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
158

Richardinho,

27/07/2008 11:52:22
#187 One moment you display complete faith in Cameron's supposed desire to defy the democratic will of the people, the next you're saying we shouldn't believe a word he says!

You're in a terrible muddle my friend!
159

Buckfastleigh,

Buckfastleigh 27/07/2008 11:53:37
Why labour the point? The media needs "political" news (makes a change from the usual regurgitation of Government press releases and initiatives or kite flying) and this particular item will run and run for the next two years at least.

Last year Gordon could do no wrong: now the failure to join the Euro and the pressure on the Pound sterling, its consequent devaluation against the Euro of 20% is compounding the financial crisis. The inevitable build up of inflation on food, manufactures and all we import from the rest of the EEA is yet to come. No wonder Brown is blamed! Perhaps this is a justified reaction by the public as it was he who insisted in applying his five tests against joining the Euro...Poetic justice Gordon; as the public might not have realized the connexion. They know whom to blame and the how, if not the why!

But you are the PM and you will continue in office and insist (as it's your duty) to run England how you best see fit and it clearly deserves to be run. BUT please leave Scotland to us. And by the way if you want more money please raise taxes on the rich and don't be tempted to underpay those poor local government workers who really fund your party (if you have really spent it all then who can one blame?)

For me a summer of solace with Buckfast wine is better than watching your grim antics with the media. Good luck Gordon!
160

Rif,

Wales 27/07/2008 11:55:33
The implication in the article is that Labour now fears a further meltdown in its support if Gordon Brown continues to lead them until 2010. Until now all their comments have been based on the assumption that Labour support has hit rock bottom, and that a loss of 200 seats is now unavoidable, but survivable. Some in Labour now are waking up to the possibility that, far from rock bottom, Labour still has far to fall.

A precedent that they might consider is the experience of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, whose Prime Minister Kim Campbell took them as a majority party of government into the 1993 Canadian General Election. They emerged with just TWO SEATS left in Parliament, a catastrophe from which they never recovered.

I'm not saying that this WILL happen to Labour; but with a first-past-the-post electoral system (here for Westminster elections, as in Canada), it remains a possibility that a similar debacle could occur. All the posturing in the world does not eliminate the possibility of something like this happening, even though the probability remains low.
161

,

27/07/2008 12:14:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
162

Denis,

27/07/2008 12:17:01
This is why Labour must hang on in office, and keep out the Tories, quite likely right up to the bitter end on Thursday April 29th 2010:

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=34760-qqqx=1.asp

"A second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty would be heavily defeated if it were held immediately, according to a new opinion poll carried out by research firm RedC."

"Just over half of all Irish voters (52 per cent) said they would vote against the treaty if a second referendum were held immediately. Only 32 per cent said they would vote in favour of the treaty."

"When asked if ‘‘the Irish government should do as the French president has reportedly said and organise a second referendum on the treaty’’, just a quarter of voters agreed, while 71 per cent disagreed."

There may still be a chance that the Irish could be persuaded to vote "yes" in a second referendum, but probably not until the autumn of 2009 at the earliest.

In fact the Labour party might quite fancy the idea of it being delayed until March 2010, say six weeks before the UK general election. That way during the preceding six months the Tories could tear themselves to pieces over what to put in their manifesto.

Of course the Tories could easily forestall that by deciding, now, that whatever happens in Ireland a Tory government would hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and publicly warning the other EU countries that they should proceed on the basis that the recent British ratification is no more than a provisional ratification.
163

Nikostratos,

27/07/2008 12:17:43
#198 The Spook in Leith,

"if Celtic offered you a contract tomorrow and you accepted, can I argue that makes you a Celtic fan?"

"if Celtic offered you a contract tomorrow "

flights of fancy or what spooky "if Celtic offered you a contract tomorrow "

i believe i believe.

#197 rif

the question for labour is not how to win the next election but how to survive as a significant opposition and political party.Some are starting to realise
164

Nikostratos,

27/07/2008 12:25:42
#193

"but i gather the tories can not be as bad as broons shower of crooks "

you are young with much to learn to be saying things such as that my only wish is that your eyes are not opened by the experience of living under a conservative government.

Even i accept an Independent scotland is preferable to a union led by the conservatives with vengeance in their heart and both eyes on scottish oil...
165

Russell M,

Stirling 27/07/2008 12:38:05
Seems like an overreaction, but then "New" Labour started with an immoral overreaction: the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997. So here we are over a decade later and they still haven't learned anything fundamental.
166

European Scot,

27/07/2008 12:43:03
202 Nikostratos

" Even i accept an Independent scotland is preferable to a union led by the conservatives with vengeance in their heart and both eyes on scottish oil... "

There seem to be signs of improvement in the most unlikely places ! !
167

Nellie,

Liverpool 27/07/2008 12:56:37
LOL! When the commentators on the TV eventually analyse the fall of the Labour Government, Glasgow East will be listed as just another bullet in the body of Labour - it certainly won't be the one shot that killed them. Rather Labour is bleeding to death, and mostly from self-inflicted shots. The Glasgow result isn't any more significant than that. Labour rebels are only using it to justify their plot to hammer Brown out of his job as Labour Leader. But Brown and his allies aren't ready to surrender just because of Glasgow East. It's going to take a lot more political bullets than Glasgow to finish them off.
168

Brian Hill,

27/07/2008 12:57:30
If Labour could afford it, sidelining GB and running for the polls would make perfect sense.

1. If they are going to lose in 2010 and be out of office for between 5 and 10 years at least, better that time starts now rather than in two years time where things are more likely to get worse than better...in other words go now, lose less seats and possibly get back in 5 rather than 10 years.

2. The Tories will be prevented from building momentum in the way Salmond is doing between now and the Independence Referendum in November 2010.

3. The Tories will have far less in depth policies available now than in June 2010.

169

,

27/07/2008 13:02:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
170

First Rule of Anarchy,

27/07/2008 13:06:28
Just surfaced from a two day bender.

What was I celebrating again?
171

,

27/07/2008 13:09:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
172

Border Scot,

27/07/2008 13:09:33
Just a quick point of order. The referendum the SNP is proposing in 2010 is not on indepenence, it is about asking whether the Scottish people authorise the Scottish Parliament/Government (I can't remember which) to negotiate independence with Westminster. That, of course, is completely different. The Scottish people would surely have to vote again on the results of the negotiation, as would the people's the rest of the UK.

This is what it says on the SNP website:

"If a majority of those who vote in the referendum vote for independence, representatives of the Scottish government will then begin negotiations with Westminster to agree an independence settlement. While negotiations are under way, a written constitution for an independent Scotland will be drafted, which will guarantee rights for Scotland’s citizens and set out how Scotland will be governed."

This begs a few questions:

1. What is meant by "Westminster"?
2. What if "Westminster" refuses to recognise the legitmacy of the referendum?
3. What if "Westminster" decides it is not mandated to negotiate the dissolution of the UK?
4. What happens if there is a negotiation and it does not deliver what the Scottish people had been told that it would deliver?
5. At what stage will we be told categorically whether we will be allowed into the EU?
6. If we are allowed into the EU, upon what terms will this be?
7. What happens if the Scots vote in favour of the agreement enshrining the dissoluton of the UK, but one of the other constituent parts votes against?
8. Who gets to write the Scottish constitution we are promised?
9. Do the Scots get a vote on whether to accept it or reject it?

173

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 13:11:11
Here is a nice little article in the Sunday Times

"Glasgow spells the end of 300-year union"

"A new spirit of Scottish identity has emerged into which the Scottish National party has tapped"

"An autonomous Scotland, a country as big as Denmark, should liberate the English parliament to enjoy a politics freed of the alien encumbrance of Scottish seats. It should liberate English politics, and especially the Labour party, from the distortion of 50 Scottish socialists, most of them indelibly linked to old-fashioned concepts of public spending. It should also liberate England to consider its localism, its neglected Anglo-Saxon history and culture, without having to “take into account” the Scottish (or Irish or Welsh) ingredients of that curious vacuity, Britishness."


see - tinyurl.com/682pbm

I'm sure the last bit "that curious vacuity, Britishness.", which I particularly enjoyed will
have the Unionistas storming the Times in
protest :)

Saor Alba
174

Nellie,

Liverpool 27/07/2008 13:18:56
#211 LOL! But I think you mean another hole in the Kevlar jacket!!

Barcelona? Hey, I'm Real Madrid!
175

Border Scot,

27/07/2008 13:35:06
I am not sure that the SNP should rely too much on the Tories to produce the final push for independence. A lot has changed since Thatcher's time, including the entire economic base of the country and the fact we have a Scottish Parliament.

In fact, we could find that while the Tories do not have a chance of ever being the majority party here again, some of the policies they introduce - like, say, reductions in both personal and business taxation - could prove quite popular. It will be interesting to see if the SNP would oppose such moves.

Labour made a huge mistake last year when they promised the world would come to an end if the SNP took over in Holyrood, the SNP could be making an equally bad mistake in saying that Scotland will suffer if the Tories come into power in Westminster. What if we don't?
176

,

27/07/2008 13:37:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
177

,

27/07/2008 13:38:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
178

,

27/07/2008 13:43:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

Arthur G,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 13:49:22
The belief of the Labour supporters on here that everything will be all right come the next Scottish parliamentary elections, is touching. The same attitude prevails in the Labour hierarchy:

"But the mob always vote for us...".

Well the times have changed and New Labour has not. I chucked Labour, when Labour chucked all of its own principles and replaced them with Thatcherite ones.
As for a ‘Scottish’ Labour strategy designed to whip the faithful into line…
Think of this, Labour in the East End, possessed of a large Roman Catholic, Irish leaning, Celtic supporting electorate chooses to try to wrap itself in the Flag of the Union and force through embryo experimentation legislation.. This following on from Wee Jack's ruse of 'Scotland's Secret Shame', a policy designed to deflect from Scotland's real social; problems that Labour was unable or unwilling to address.
By accident or design this policy ended up as a free-for-all against one-side of the religious divide. Denominational schools were exempt from criticism and blame was laid wholly upon so-called Protestant 'bigots', preferably those who also followed Rangers FC.
As a result a lot of Labour voting Protestant Rangers fans (of which there are an awful lot, despite the media’s narrow stereotyping - if there were not, by sheer numbers, the Tories would have a lot more success in Scotland - have decided to move their votes elsewhere. So, then that’s both the Protestants and the Roman Catholics alienated
Meanwhile back in Glasgow East, a constituency full of the sick and the poor of all creeds and none, hears the news, designed to play well in the Home Counties, that low earners are to be taxed more and the sick are to be thrown off benefits. New Tory Labour has stolen another Thatcherite stratagem: when the economy is in trouble blame the sick and unemployed. As I said a policy designed to popularise “Britishness” Brown. It won’t, of course work, the Home Counties doesn’t like Brown, “the
180

Arthur G,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 13:51:49
(cont)...the 'Home Counties' doesn’t like Brown, “the dour Scot”. Despite this Scottish Labour’s London masters decree the suicidal policy be maintained in an attempt to regain Glasgow East. Utter madness.

If the Scottish labour party wishes to regain any ground in this land (independent or not) it must throw off London Labour and become its own master. Of course, the hogs would have to realise that there would be less room around a smaller trough for them to stick their snouts in.
181

Tarchin,

Lothian 27/07/2008 13:52:44
When interviewed on "Newsnight" by Jeremy Paxman Alex Salmond was asked what the SNP government had achieved in its first year, he answered that Forth Road Bridge tolls had been scrapped and that Council Tax bills had been frozen. Today on the Andrew Marr Show Nicola Sturgeon was asked a similar question by Huw Edwards and she replied that Council Tax had been frozen, prescription charges reduced and small rates reduced. Hardly an impressive list. When questioned about concessionary transport costs by Wendy Alexander Alex Salmond failed to give an unequivocal assurance that the present entitlement was secure. I suspect it will be modified i.e. cut, in the near future.
Before someone accuses me of being a New Labourite the last time I voted Labour was in 1964 when Harold Wilson was PM.
The dammnation of Gordon Brown is not entirely justified certain events are without the power of any UK government, the Credit Crunch. Increase in food prices and increases in oil prices are not within any one goverment's control. What has not helped anybody in the "Feeding Frenzy" being conducted aginst Brown by all branches of the media.
Do you think Scotland will fair better under a Tory goverment?
182

,

27/07/2008 13:54:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

,

27/07/2008 13:56:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
184

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 14:05:01
Lest we forget here are some wise words from
the previous leader of the "Scottish"
Labour Party - her Wendieness :

"perhaps the last time the Labour movement in Scotland had made "a real intellectual contribution" to the party nationally was in 1906."

see - tinyurl.com/6mboay

Given we were told she has the brain the size
of a planet, I think it only fair to assume
this to be a true statement. I fail to
see of any of the prospective candidates
for leadership making any "real intellectual contribution" so all in all no change then
no matter which one is elected :)
185

,

27/07/2008 14:09:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
186

subrosa,

27/07/2008 14:12:32
# 64 said: How can you vote for (or against) Holyrood in a Westminster election? Can't be done, by the very foact thereof.

Margaret Curran's talk was all about Holyrood. She said so little about Westminster that I must have missed it.

Fact.
187

subrosa,

27/07/2008 14:15:17
# 226 said :'When questioned about concessionary transport costs by Wendy Alexander Alex Salmond failed to give an unequivocal assurance that the present entitlement was secure. I suspect it will be modified i.e. cut, in the near future.'

Don't you read the papers? Well obviously you come onto newspaper websites but you don't read the articles.

The SNP are EXTENDING concessionary transport to include disabled ex-service personnel. At last someone somewhere in the UK is showing a little respect for our military.
188

Arthur G,

Glasgow 27/07/2008 14:20:19
Red Etin #229 I apologise if my garbled style of writing (straight off the top of my head without editing,) obscures my intended meaning that I was trying to convey and which is precisely your point. There is no Scottish Labour and therefore for the Labour Party in Scotland to claim that it is fighting for Scottish rather than 'British' interests is disingenuous.
Again, If Labour wants to do something in Scotland it must recreate itself as an independent and autonomous body designed to work in Scotland’s interest. This is something I do not believe labour in Scotland attempt until after independence, when all parties apart from the SNP will have to redesign themselves using a Scottish mould.
189

Tarchin,

Lothian 27/07/2008 14:28:25
# 227 & 230 Spam 2 You are pushing at an open door, I am no fan of New Labour and as I said, have not voted Labour since 1964.
190

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 14:30:43
217 Traquir-the Times articleis interesting although your interpretation of it adds a little spin. Few would deny that the UK as presently constituted,is evolving. And few, myself included can fail to admire what Alex Salmond has achieved with the SNP. The victory in Glasgow East was well deserved. But one has to admit, without detracting from this performance, that New Labour are an utter disaster and even the Mad Hatters Party if offered as the only alternative,may have come close to achieving a similar result!! To what extent the SNP's victory mirrors a growing desire for FULL Independence or just a "fed-up" rejection of Labour ,is difficult to interpret. My gut feel is that the SNP would still lose a referendum on outright independence. A Federation of the four Home Nations is to my mind the best alternative for the UK. Whatever happens,Westminster can not continue in its present form. England will definitely have its own Parliament soon either as neighbour of an Independent Scotland or first prize, as an equal partner in a new Great britain and northern ireland.
191

westview,

outer Paisley 27/07/2008 14:32:22
Suicide Election? If wee Douglas Alexander organises it then ,going by past performances , it will be lost! Come home Dougie and stand for the Scottish parliament. At least you would be of some use there ,supporting your sister and taking some of the blame for Labours demise.
192

brownlie,

27/07/2008 14:33:58
216 Meths

I think you were half-right.

What about the Pink Panther - sorry Spook!
193

Gordie McRobert,

Glasgoe 27/07/2008 14:36:26
Um,

errrrmmmmarrrrghmm...YAWN
194

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 14:36:38
UM spent most of the early hours of the morning tryuing to provoke SNP supporters into a reaction by insisting that the Glasgow East result had nothing to do with Holyrood and became increasingly abusive in his pretended lack of unnderstanding of Scottish politics.

I have just watched the Nicola Sturgeon interview from the Andrew Marr programme and I could see nothing that she said merited the post no. 214 from UM. She did not deny that Gordon Brown was deeply unpopular but merely pointed out that the SNP government in Holyrood has a record which her party is content to defend and on which the electorate are able to pass judgement. There are many reasons why voters vote the way they do. In Glasgow East the SNP won for a variey of reasons; the unpopularity of Labour and Gordon Brown; the polularity of the SNP; the personal vote of John Mason as a popular local councillor built up over 10 years and worth about 3000 votes; external economic factors affecting food & fuel prices. I could go on.

UM is not a neutral poster, but one with an entrenched hostility to the SNP amd who is now so annoyed at the SNP's present success and popularity that his comments are hardly worthy of reply.
195

Border Scot,

27/07/2008 14:36:46
#235 - If independence comes I cannot see how the SNP can continue in its present form. What else unites SNP members apart from independence?
196

Border Scot,

27/07/2008 14:37:47
#241 - In other words, you do not agree with him/her. Why not just say that?
197

willyam7,

lanarkshire 27/07/2008 14:40:24
hen broon,
and his band of blue slab rogues are a bunch of greedy corrupt lying trash that are now despised the length and bredth of the brittish isles they must realise that the glasgow result was less corruption and self greed was a bigger factor than the raising cost of living as the voters hate greedy liars and traitor,s.
198

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:41:21
#234 Subrosa

And what of the bus re-regulation voted for by the SNP conference?
199

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 14:41:28
On the subject, I can make no sense of a "Suicide Election" policy. If Labour go to the polls soon-no matter who leads them, they will be wiped out! Rather elect a new leader and hang in for the remainder of their term. At least they then have a chance of turning things around. As for jack straw as leader-another grey little man will never work for them .It took The Tories three grey liitle men-Major,Haig and Duncan Smith, to learn that you need a leader with some presence.
200

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:42:53
#234 Subverted

An answer would be MOST INTERESTING.


201

John Edgar,

Cupar, fife 27/07/2008 14:44:06
So Labour MPs south of the Tweed are demanding that Labour gives up Scotland and concentrates on the middle English vote! We always knew that Labour was an English political party. However, their English MPs need not have to worry. The SNP will wipe out Labour north of the border after the next general election to Westminster and Labour will be an English party. After all, that is what has happened to the Tories after the Thatcher/Major regimes. Two unionist/westminsterite parties will sent "home" never to return.
202

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:45:27
#234 Submit to CASH

If I have £500,000 to give away from my tax-free trust fund, can I change political party policy to my benefit, as well?
203

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 14:49:17
237 Geoff,sa

Good afternoon Geoff nice to hear from you again.
Now you must admit I did not actually spin there, but
merely quoted verbatim from the article which
was by an ex-editor of the Times. I also happen
to agree with what was stated - again not spin.

In any case I am fine exploring federation if somebody
wants to detail what that means - although of
course for me it would just be a step closer
to independence. I would rather not have to take
that extra step but if it makes the transition
to full nationhood more comfortable for some
I could be persuaded.

So how about outlining what powers would be
left in charge of such a Federation i.e.
which of the current 24 reserved powers would
stay and which would go. Also would it be
a federation of equals - four partners - four
equal votes in all matters remaining such
as I assume foreign policy ? Assuming such
a federation would only have a proportion
( I assume a small proportion) of the current 24
reserved powers then I would assume that
the size and scale of House of Commons
and the House of Lords would be complete
overkill and grossly inefficient - so what would
happen there.

Many people bandy around the word "federation" but
none actually define what this means - so IF
it is a realistic option it needs to be fleshed
out very quickly rather than just used as some
excuse to deny full nationhood to Scotland.


204

brownlie,

27/07/2008 14:50:34
249 Tin Man

I can put you in touch with a few Labour politicians.
205

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:51:00
Traquir,

you are a good guy. Will you answer my question?
206

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:52:07
#251 brownlie

I am sure that you know that two wrongs make two wrongs.
207

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 14:54:27
252 The Tin Man

What was you question ?

Also by the way I did notice your congratulations
on John Mason's victory which was very much
appreciated.
208

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:56:42
#251 brownlie

Were you foaming at the mouth when Wendy accepted £1000 from someone who lived in the Channel Islands instead of the Isle of White?
209

Border Scot,

27/07/2008 14:59:21
250 - No-one is denying Scotland anything. The Scots have the politcal settlement we voted for. If we want to change that settlement we will vote accordingly and our leaders will seek to negotiate such a change.

I agree, though, that there are a lot of questions surrounding Scotland's constitutional future. Most notably, as far as I am concerned are those that I outlined previously at #215 and which no independence supporter has been able to provide me with any answers to. I would suggest that before Scots are asked to take such a momentous decision about their country's future, we will need answers to those questions.

210

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 14:59:23
#253 Traquir

My question was why the SNP's policy of bus re-regulation, voted for at their conference, was dropped after Stagecoatch's £500,000 donation.
211

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:02:09
#253 Traquir

I do vote SNP for the right candidate, by the way. But I am just amazed by the silence on the issue.
212

,

27/07/2008 15:04:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
213

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 15:06:05
Hi Traquir-nice to hear from you too. A Federation might indeed end up as a stepping stone to full Independence but I would like to see it as an end product giving a best of both worlds solution. the federal government would control Defence and foreign affairs and the many other areas where there is a congruence of interest and where there would be an economy of scale in preveting the unnecessary duplication of institutions. Whilst I am a Unionist I accept that the old order has to change.However I realise that many Nationalists would not be happy with the combined Armed forces/Diplomatic Service for example. However the key to all of this lies in your closing sentence"...excuse to deny full nationhood to Scotland." If Scotland wants Independence then it should have it without let or hindrance however it may well be that a majority of Scots would find a looser Union as an acceptable "end" result. There would not nor should not be any impediment to this developing into something else. The key is that there is a democratic tradition in the British Isles that would always in my opinion , prevail. There will never be a China-Taiwan scenario.
Lovely day here in Durban-28 degrees and wintertime! Hope u are seeing some sun!
214

,

27/07/2008 15:06:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
215

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:11:46
Silence is deafening.

I do hope that the SNP is not a political party who's agenda can be manipulated by bribery.
216

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:13:16
#261

And again.... two wrongs really do make two wrongs.
217

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:15:07
#260 Geoff

I hope it has stopped snowing on the cape. Is the weather usually better 'round the corner?
218

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 15:15:08
257 The Tin Man

Well I would have to go with the SNP stance on this

"The resolution stands as a statement of conference policy. The SNP manifesto expresses our costed priorities for the next fouryear term."

Basically it is not seen as a priority at this point,
are you suggesting some more sinister reason ?
219

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:20:51
#265 Traquir

Oh yes I am.

The party policy, on a matter such as this, must be slated for a vote on legislation within the party's term of office. Or are you saying that EU potato nomenclature is of more importance?
220

brownlie,

27/07/2008 15:22:20
253 Tin Man

You are certainly not wrong there. Was Souter's gift to the SNP not openly declared and did it not have a lot to do out of his declared disgust at the Labour Party?

255 Tin Man

I don't foam at the mouth but I'm sure Wendy's Campaign Team were salivating as they counted the cash for the election that did not take place. Incidentally, is it true that someone decided that donations had to be under £1000 for some reason?
221

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 15:23:02
264 Tin man-Hi TM. The Cape is a thousand miles from Durban and much further south so its winters are much harsher. Also they get there precipitation in winter whilst we get ours in summer! "Winter" in Durban is one of the worlds best climates-dry and warm! Rgrds
222

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:24:18
#265 Traquir

I must admit to finding your posts unusually impenetrable, looking too much like amateur poetics. However, I do hope that you are not fully tethered to that party line - at least not so much as it obstructs your airway.
223

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:26:14
#267 brownlie

Unfortunately, not an answer.
224

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 15:26:27
Hi Brownlie.
Poor old gordon brown!
225

,

27/07/2008 15:28:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
226

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:28:37
#268 Geoff

So, when would be a good time to drive up the east coast? i guess that summer must be around the corner in ZA. Do you know if Zimbers is still worth a visit?
227

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 27/07/2008 15:28:37
Perhaps everybody is getting a bit too excited by all of this. Glasgow East has a lot of implications for Broon, but is not definitive in terms of the independence debate. The facts are this

1. Everybody throughout the UK has had enough of Labour, at Westmninster, in Holyrood and in Wales - partly as a result of their policies, but also they've simply been around too long

2. Whereas much of so-called 'Middle England' has drifted back to the Tories, the Tories are still light-years away from having any credibility in Scotland

3. Lib Dems are tainted by their association with Labour

4. That leaves the SNP. Whatever the public's view on the independence issue, they are at least showing some dynamism and standing up for Scotland. That said much of the SNP's support would be Tory voters down south

What happens next is too early to tell. It could mean the tide flows towards independence, especially if the Tories get back in at Westminster. But equally voters may tire of the SNP eventually and give them the same kick in the pants
228

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 15:29:50
260 Geoff, sa

Hi Geoff-nice to hear from you, bit jealous
of your weather though :)

In terms of a federation I personally doubt
there is much synergy even in the
areas which might be proposed for such
a federal government e.g. Defence and foreign affairs.
England and/or Britain appears to still
have a strong almost obsessive desire
to have to be at the top table and
have to pay the piper to stay artificially
at that level (e.g. align with US for
catastrophic war in Iraq, spending billions
on defence such as £76 billion on a New Trident system. see - tinyurl.com/3kub7t ). Scotland can not
afford to pay this price especially given
the opportunity cost of spending the money
on other key areas such as health, education,
investing for the future, social care, ...

If there were an equal partnership of all
four members of such a federation then it
would be almost tolerable, but would
England ever tolerate that type of arrangement ?
If there was such an equal partnership would
wars like Iraq be supported or so many
billions be spend on defence - I seriously
doubt it.

So first question for any potential federal
solution would it be partnership of equals ?
If not then I think it is non-starter.
229

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 15:36:45
273 Tin Man-summer starts in september with increasing rain and humidity. Best time to drive up the coast-North East April to august,South East-Cape-probably december-March. NE in Dec-March is very humid but still ok. Zim is still an awesome country-with great flyin value to Kariba,Vic Falls,Hwange-hopefully Mugabe will be soon gone!
Ta ed for indulging.
230

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:38:15
#275 Traquir

I think you should try to do something with your line spacing. I always fall into regarding your postings as something from Wordsworth, and then it becomes a bit disappointing..
231

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 15:38:41
269 The Tin Man,

"#265 Traquir

I must admit to finding your posts unusually impenetrable, looking too much like amateur poetics. However, I do hope that you are not fully tethered to that party line - at least not so much as it obstructs your airway. "

Oh, well there was me trying to be civil :)
I will leave you to your
"curious vacuity, Britishness" and your
conspiracy theories.

Slainte Mhor
232

brownlie,

27/07/2008 15:38:58
270 Tin Man

No, not an answer. The question-marks indicate that it may be questions for you to answer - do they not?
233

brownlie,

27/07/2008 15:42:07
271 Geoff

Hi Geoff, weather in the Hebrides is great, shame about the midgies.

When you suggest that Gordon Brown is poor do you mean personally or professionally?
234

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:42:09
#276 Geoff

Thanks - it's been a while since I was down in that part of the world, but it would be nice to visit friends and take the family to see some ellies, mountains, and beaches.
235

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:44:11
#280 brownlie

Indeed - I am scared to go outside - not nearly windy enough - can I get to the canoe alive?


236

,

27/07/2008 15:44:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
237

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 15:50:04
275 Traquir-yes Englands size is a prob in relation to the others. Maybe england could be split with regional assemblies and/or a requirement for unanimity on critical decisions such as going to war with each partner having a veto. the iraqwar was a disaster that I think even a majority in england would have liked to avoid if they had access to the full facts or if there had been further safeguards to avoid precipitous decisions. I think our friend "Federation not seperation" could articulate the case for a Federal UK better than I can. Although the comparison is not entirely valid i am continually fascinated by the USA model where the individual states have very consideable powers including over, for example, the death penalty. America is such a diverse nation-ethnically and now even linguistically yet it has such a strong sense of nationhood that seems to stretch across race and political persuasion. As I have said previously-I am a Unionist of the heart-the economic arguments can probably be debated convincingly on both sides of the divide in britain. I just feel it would be enormously sad to give up on the UK in some form or t'other!
238

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 15:51:54
#278 Traquir

Sorry, I was not trying to be uncivil - I was only criritising your line spacing and hoping to stiemie unswerving devotion to something that you do not love.
239

Tarchin,

Lothian 27/07/2008 15:52:15
#234 subrosa.
No I do not read the papers every day perhaps 2-3 times per week and mostly "The Herald".
I do watch PMQs and Holyrood Live when I can. Alex Salmond was very uncomfortable with Wendy Alexander's question about concessionary travel. I am pleased that disabled ex-servicemen are to enjoy free travel. I was asking for how much longer? Will we see time limits imposed on concessionary travel again.? Will the age of elegibility for free travel be raised.? Will a flat fare of say 40p be introduced on all concessionary travellers' journeys? These are questions I would like answered.
240

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 16:00:32
280 Brownlie-we use a rubon wax agin the mozzies-maybe it wud work for midges?
Gordon Brown-:) feel a little sad for the man-his timing was unfortunate as Labour were well on the wane, and he likes the necessary showbiz personality for the top job.Otherwise i think he is a sincere and hardworking individual who perhaps deserves better from life>
241

brownlie,

27/07/2008 16:01:38
282 The Tin Man

Canoe on the Sabbath!!!? - the Lord will rain fire and brim-stone on your head - and you think the midgies are bad!!
242

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 27/07/2008 16:02:46
UM comes on to a Scottish Newspaper site and moans that supporters of Scotland's largest political party the SNP are commenting on the impact of a byelection which that party won. If UM wishes to discuss the plight of Labour with relevance only to the Conservative and Liberal Democratic parties, perhaps the Times or Telegraph sites might be a more appropriate forum for the airing of his opinions and he will not have to be bothered reading the Scottish perspective on events.
243

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 16:03:38
284 Geoff,sa

"I think our friend "Federation not seperation" could articulate the case for a Federal UK better than I can"

Well sadly no - I did go down that route
see - tinyurl.com/6qo5gt - I think this
may put you off the possibility of Federation for
good :)

Your arguments are much more cohesive and intelligent.

I do respect your position as
a "Unionist of the heart",
but most of that is I think to do with the past
(a lot of which I can see why you would proud),
but I do not think has much to do with the
present or future. In fact if anything the current
and the future is, I would have thought,
tainting the memory of a once great nation/empire,
better just to end it now before the memory
is totally gone.

Slàinte mhor
244

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:05:53
#288 brownlie

Also, I am not wearing a hat, and the kids are playing, so I guess the fires of damnation will be even hotter.
245

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 16:09:09
Hey, hairsplitter Tin Man, stymie.
246

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:09:25
#288

I forgot! I play a musical instrument - that's me done-for for all eternity!
247

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:11:13
#291 Tamson

Thanks, I was struggling with that one. Best not to go to borstal.
248

brownlie,

27/07/2008 16:13:10
293 Tin Man

I'll bet its a trumpet and you blow your own.

Feasgar math!!
249

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:15:08
#295 brownlie

Plenty wind from my seated-regions. I will stick to the big fiddle.
250

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 16:15:50
Tin Man, left a message for you on the Broon thread. You said that Westminster set up the Scottish Parliament. I said that the EU forced the Scottish parliament on Wenstminster.

Suppose we'll have to wait for freedom of information before we see how much of the funding came from Brussels.
251

Joanna,

Cambs, England 27/07/2008 16:16:01
Farewell Mr Brown, the day you fall upon your sword will be a cause of celebration in England as well as Scotland.

It was not part of their blood,
It came to them very late,
With long arrears to make good,
When the English began to hate

They were not easily moved,
They were icy willing to wait
Till every count should be proved,
Ere the English began to hate.

Their voices were even and low,
Their eyes were level and straight.
There was neither sign nor show,
When the English began to hate.

It was not preached to the crowd,
It was not taught by the State.
No man spoke it aloud,
When the English began to hate.

It was not suddenly bred,
It will not swiftly abate,
Through the chill years ahead,
When shall count from the date
That the English began to hate

Rudyard Kipling
252

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 16:20:30
On the subject of relating vowels to spelling, I find it interesting that Tin Man uses ie to pronounce Y. Very Germanic. In Scotland it is usually the other way round (apart from Heid).
253

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 16:20:53
On the subject of relating vowels to spelling, I find it interesting that Tin Man uses ie to pronounce Y. Very Germanic. In Scotland it is usually the other way round (apart from Heid).
254

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 16:22:49
May as well be immature. Got 200 on one thread and 300 on this one.

Must be a closet unionist.

Please, Lord, do not do this to me.
255

Itchy,

27/07/2008 16:23:51
"Union leaders who gathered at the party's national forum in Warwick yesterday declared their backing for a windfall tax on energy companies whose profits have increased as prices have risen.
"

Pig ignorance which will wreck the economy.
256

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:24:25
#297 jock

An interesting concept.... Do you think that the EU could fund my pariament? we have a problem with mooring rights and I think the EU should be involved, for a price.
257

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:27:23
#299 Jock

I'll say this once, and i'll say it again...


I'll say this once, and i'll say it again...
258

brownlie,

27/07/2008 16:29:46
287 Geoff

I would have, at one time, agreed with your comments about Gordon Brown.

However, Geoff, he was in a unique position to stop the Iraq invasion. The fact that he did not do so negates the respect I held him in when I worked for the Labour party.
259

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 16:31:04
#250
"would it be
a federation of equals - four partners - four
equal votes in all matters remaining such
as I assume foreign policy ?"

Traquir - There's the rub, treating Scotland as an equal to England is not acceptable to the English body politic, treating Scotland as inferior is not acceptable to Scots body politic - the dynamic of constitutional change in the Union and one that can only end in dissolution of the Union.
260

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 16:31:37
Just in case you guys miss it AM2 and Kimba
are having a falling out on another Scotsman
thread.

see - tinyurl.com/64rnrj

Very good entertainment value, bring the popcorn :)
261

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 16:33:04
303, Tin Man. I am surprised that you did not know that.

304, Tin Man, es tut mir wirklich leid. It was just a wind up - or was it?
262

,

27/07/2008 16:35:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
263

brownlie,

27/07/2008 16:39:03
304 Tin Man

Incidentally, and off topic, if there's a peat bank near you splash peaty water - the browner the better - on your skin and it repels midges.

I understand blue woad is equally effective to repel unionists.
264

,

27/07/2008 16:45:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
265

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:46:52
#308 Jock T

Ya gavoreet pa ruski ochen horoshow. No ya ne nravitsa prison.
266

Buckfastleigh,

not London 27/07/2008 16:48:10
#280 Its just Brown all over; until the midgees got to him too. Great to live FAR away from Wastemiser Place
267

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 16:51:25
305 Brownlie-yes on that issue i would have thought he would have aligned himself with Robin Cook-maybe the lure of the premiership was too tempting a prize to put at risk!

288 Brownlie-canoe on the Sabbath-am guilty myself including on the chilly waters off the Mull of kintyre on my last visit to scotland!Will b back next year to paddle across to Cushendall-19 miles-care to join us?!!
268

,

27/07/2008 16:53:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
269

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 16:53:34
"Labour considers 'suicide' election"

Considers? They're getting one regardless.
270

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 16:55:11
#304 brownlie

i believe that the full mud-body-mask is the only answer, although I think they would get through the dried crackles. My wife is the expert, and I will consult her...
271

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 16:56:14
Or is it Cushendun-I always confuse the two.
272

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 16:58:53
315 SPAM2-sorry spam-Kimba and AM2 are coming with me!
273

,

27/07/2008 17:00:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
274

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 17:06:57
320 Spam2-you're a cruel man spam. On that note I'm off to the couch with a beer. Cheers all-ta for the wrap.
275

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 17:11:53
Tin Man, what does 312 have to do with ie and ei, eh?
276

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 17:12:54
#321 Bye Geoff - I am off to excavate the cider supply.
277

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 17:14:12
#322 Jock

Ya ne z'nayu. Te?
278

Geoff,

sa 27/07/2008 17:15:42
323 Tin man-thats big headache stuff-take it easy-work tomorrow!
279

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 17:19:47
Keep going, Tin Man, you have been talking the same sense all day. Nicht wahr?
280

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 17:20:29
#325 Geoff

All things in moderation at my age, of course! Although I do think I should go to Tesco's instead of attempting Scottish not quite ripe cider....
281

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 17:22:17
#326 Jock

Nicht more warrs for me, thanks.
282

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/07/2008 17:27:39
Not only are Labour considering a suicide election on this thread, they are also considering a suicide selection on the story about a leader for Labour (Scotland).
283

brownlie,

27/07/2008 17:33:08
314 Geoff

No thanks - too much energy required and too near civilisation for me. I'll stick with my dram and watch the dolphins expend their energy!!

If any wee Free ministers are reading this I was only kidding about the dram. Hic!

Slainte mhor!!
284

The Tin Man,

27/07/2008 17:46:51
#330 brownlie

See you downstairs....
285

Western Gael,

27/07/2008 18:11:27
Three lost by elections politically are equivalent to three broken legs. Brown has only two, and a horse is put down after the first. It's time for the three gentlemen in gray suits to bring him the bottle of whisky and the revolver.
286

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 27/07/2008 18:35:47
I've always thought that many of the rank and file of Scottish Labour were reluctant in supporting their local leaders in opposing either independence or increased devolution (gradualism) because they had Scots prime ministers and therefore the illusion of power. It does not seem reasonable that so many Scots would be opposed to independence for their own country and Scottish Labour leadership made the tragic mistake of misreading the the deep seated emotional and rational need of the Scottish people to be a nation once again.

Consequently they have suffered massive defections from voters who for years stayed loyal to the principles of Keir Hardie... a truly Scotttish hero. Added to this was the moral decay within the party and a cavalier attitude towards democratic values. The 42 day detention without trial, peerages for sale, Iraq and its lies, dishonest behaviour around campaign donations.... are among the prime examples.

The SNP saw the future and the writing on the wall and have formed a very well organised national front to successfully secure power in Scotland and eventually independence. The SNP has breached the walls of the the last fortress of power in Scotland of the British government i.e. Labour's heartland and and British labour is finished in Scotland... paving the way for a triumphant independence. The UK directed Tories and LIbDems will have no significant role to play in Scotland.

It may well be that sufficient of the Scottish Labour rump may now see the light and adopt independence, or at a minimum, continuous devolution as a core principle within a newly formed, autonomous party of the left completely detached from British Labour. Indeed it is their only chance or otherwise they will go the way of the dodo.

This will be healthy for Scotland since political competition will keep everyone on their toes and and produce a wealth of innovative and pragmatic dialogue exclusively concerned with Scotland's new future.




287

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 27/07/2008 18:46:42
Sleazy New Labour and all its sycophants are heading for political disaster and an equally justified deserved oblivion!

Without the Scottish and Welsh MPs there NEVER would have been such a Government,in the past, present or future; our English (Not British) neighbours will make sure off that!
288

Lesley McDade,

Edinburgh 27/07/2008 19:00:46
I had a wee bit of a concern last week. Brown is to support Israel. Can the Scotsman clarify what is being supported and why concerning Israel? Also, this kind of representation from the Government "implies" that there was more than one option on the table, ie that we could have had the choice to support someone else for instance - what are we not substantively getting. Also the article above is suggesting / giving the impression that Lord Straw my stand against Brown for Prime Minister, failing him, David Milliband. Again, am I missing something - I am not stupid. If we support Israel we get in return .... as reciprocity ...? Lord Straw - Home Office, Foreign Office, Ministry of Justice looks like a triple crown to me (NP) then you get to see my blog www.lesleymcdade.blogspot.com - why can I not have a right to a fair trial????? I am not hiding anything???? Then their is now the issue what is Lord Straw going to do about it - appeal review bundle is in - settle or justice! Besides I think I might have an inkling what is going on and if I am right .... then you might have to remove the entire cabinet - why can Israel not stand on their own two feet, what reason do we(UK)/Brown have to give support - suspicious of reason -good/bad. I did not catch much of Obama Barack's visit nor caught the Sunday papers, however, I did catch the statement about "rule of law" - yes, and he will be blessed if he complies with it: to my mind he appears to be doing ok so far - "United" States of America, now what is my blog all about!!!.
289

morris,

edinburgh 27/07/2008 19:48:38
9 Um,27/07/2008 00:53:51

The popular misconception was that Labour were brought down by the SNP,when the opposite was in fact the case,and the SNP could not possibly have done what Labour claimed, since its almost permanently arithmetically impossibleaS YOU RIGHTLY EXPLAIN.
What happened of course is the UNPOPULAR LABOUR government was sustained in power by the SNP !
They reneged on promises and that'S when the SNP stopped supporting the Labour governmentAND TOOK IT TO THE PEOPLE and democratic accountability , with the resultant defeat of Labour who were dismissed in the General Election which ensued.

That means that the SNP were in fact propping up a Labour administration which the PEOPLE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM did not want, clearly,or they would have VOTED FOR IT.
The SNP did not remove that Labour government!

Those Labour supporters who claimed the SNP brought LABOUR down declared to the world that they were too THICK to understand what should be obvious to even the village idiot!WE VOTED THEM OUT .Thats the only way we remove governmnents in the UK.

Scotland had 72 seats then I think (and only 59 now),so its even more true NOW than ever that how Scotland votes does not matter. England has 10 times as many seats and they decide who runs the UK.
Scotland could vote 100% Labour and there would still be a Tory government in Westmonster.
Thats precisely how we got the Tory governmnent for 18 or so years and that included Thatcher.

LABOUR voters elected Thatcher into Scotland. FACT

WELL DONE LABOUR VOTERS!
I trust we have stopped listening to these slavering numpties for good!
290

morris,

edinburgh 27/07/2008 19:56:42
329

Irrespective of when the election is held Labour will get humped off the planet into oblivion and a Tory government will be elected by England.That happens no matter what Scotland does unless she declares indpendence .

The choice is clear VOTE SNP and get out,or Vote Labour Lib Dem or Tory and get a TOry government which will have no mandate to govern Scotland and we will then become ungovernable and soon afterwards
independent anyway.
It makes no difference now.
The UK is dead.

Bury it!
291

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 20:00:14
#335
"Without the Scottish and Welsh MPs there NEVER would have been such a Government,in the past, present or future; our English (Not British) neighbours will make sure off that!"

No. The Labour party have an absolute majority at Westminster with their English MPs alone.
292

John B Dick,

27/07/2008 20:36:31
"Scotland will be independent when people vote for it."

Donald Dewar

Father of the Nation
293

morris,

Edinburgh 27/07/2008 20:52:07
Graham Simpson,Vancouver 27/07/2008 18:35:47

Whilst I recognise what you are saying I'm intrigued by the use of the term gradualism,which conjures up an orderly process of devolution as if by design or intention.

What Scotland has is a party of Independence and numerous Unionist parties who try to halt or delay any further progression as much as possible.Devolution is their variable solution except that it solves nothing,and we should just leave END OF DEBATE.
Get it over and done with as it were!

Nobody actually wants devolution Mk I II or III or anything remotely like devolution for itself.Some see it as a step in the right direction toward their goal of independence, so cannot oppose it, and others see it as the only way to slow down the inevitable, and get as much money out of Scotland before she wakens up and realises what she has done!

Gradualism ? I suppose it is in a way but its very much a default value and not a solution to anything and certainly not a meaningful choice. Labour told us we wanted devolution! We told them we were divided between Independence and Status Quo . We both lost out!We got this half way house which is a start on a slippery slope but thats all it can ever be.
We have gone beyond the point of recall now.

Even a federal solution would have made more sense,but London does not want sensible solutions .They just want our taxes and oil.

I don't blame them .They are paid to get the best deal for their electors.The problem is Broon and Darling are paid to get the best deal for SCOTLAND where they were elected ,and will shortly be removed!

Devolution is just an admission that the UK does not work.
294

morris,

edinburgh 27/07/2008 20:55:47
John B Dick,27/07/2008 20:36:31

Absolutely.
In a democracy the wishes of the people are paramount or they are NOT in a democracy.

Scotland will get what she votes for.
It will be a Tory government legitimately elected as the majority party of the United Kingdom.
Labour will complain they have no mandate in Scotland.Im sorry but they do!
Labour Tory and Lib Dem give them legitimacy.
295

snecked,

Argyll 27/07/2008 21:06:18
Funny thing. The old Labour line of the SNP bringing down Callaghan's floundering Labour government is about all the Labour unionists can think of to attack the SNP.
I actual fact the much larger group of Liberals also withdrew their support from Labour and did much more to bring Callaghan down.
But I never hear the Labour spinners mentioning that. The Libs were were partners with the Labour in the last Scottish Government!
Hypocrites!
296

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 27/07/2008 21:41:23
I still can't over the fact that some people actually still vote for the steaming pile labour party - it is quite beyond me that people can be that thick ....
297

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 27/07/2008 22:03:41
#341 Morris.. Thank you for your comments. What you have said makes perfect sense. What I am suggesting is that there may well be such a rift within the remains of Scottish Labour that a rump party may be formed that takes no direction from London and in order to compete with the SNP will adopt independence or one it's many suggested compromises such as gradualism or federation.

I absolutely agree that we either get independence or nothing and time is of the essence since the meter is running. We are faced with both the depletion of oil reserves and the anglo-isation of Scotland as people from the south seek property and opportunity away form the high cost of southern England or are retired and sold there more expensive home in England. I worked for an SNP candidate in May 2007 in Edinburgh and did telephone campaigning. I was astonished to hear so many English accents over the phone in Central Edinburgh and found out later that there are about 400.000 English born residents in Scotland. i.e. close to 8% of our population. Not that I object to anyones presence in Scotland but it is a sobering thought if you are working towards independence.

My suggestion is that the adoption of independence by a distinctively Scottish Labour party is a possibility that will only help the movement towards independence, since they will be unable to exist if they choose to constantly thwart the legitimate wishes of the Scottish people.
298

Traquir , Alba,

27/07/2008 22:06:23
Iain Macwhirter just posted a great article on
the leadership contest.

"Labour in Scotland is a body without a head"

"That this is a race of also-rans is only stating the obvious. Jack McConnell, who resigned after the Holyrood election defeat last year, looks like a towering figure by comparison."

"The new Scottish leader needs to make a decisive break with Westminster and lead an autonomous party, with its own constitution and policies. But what the candidates are offering is the same old, same old: education and skills, cracking down on crime, Salmond's "broken promises"."

"Their one contribution to the constitutional debate so far has been to dump Wendy's call for an independence referendum, and to promise that there will be no more flirtations with nationalism.
flirting with nationalism is precisely what Labour should be doing in Scotland. Indeed, it needs to have a full-on illicit affair with nationalism."

see - tinyurl.com/6kqego
299

Hamish Scott,

27/07/2008 22:20:14
#345
Graham - Some of those 400,000 are SNP members and more of them are supporters!
300

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/07/2008 22:43:44
Iain Macwhirter is a rabid nationalist.

He simply cannot help himself.

The man is an idiot.
301

European Scot,

27/07/2008 23:00:39
348 Rufus T Firefly

" Iain Macwhirter is a rabid nationalist.

He simply cannot help himself.

The man is an idiot."

To a person so ready and willing to accept one sided pro Unionist media, the above must seem to be the truth, when an intelligent and balanced reporter, makes fair and reasoned comment.
I fear your assessment of this particular writer's capabilities, are on a par with your by-election forecasting talents !
302

Buckfastleigh,

in bed listening to radio 4 27/07/2008 23:03:38
Surprise surprise! Has no one told you that senior figures in the Labour party, presumably after today's interminable fag inhaling session, are now fully supporting Gronedon. Well I heard it on the BBC so it must be true.

Perhaps the news will be repeatedly rewritten today and tomorrow, the day after and so on, to ensure that the media is full enough of varied material about Breins Brawn to read till the beginning of September (at least); well I suppose it's rather better than last year's sad disappearance and multifaceted verbiage around the Portuguese police and the many newspapers with their very own summer imaginative interpretative and creative stories.
303

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/07/2008 23:04:54
Euro Scot, I was aligning my prediction with all the bookmakers odds.

Anyway, if you read MacWhirter's articles regularly and indeed watch his interviews on Tv, you will know that he is far from being a balanced reporter.

He is not clever enough to be able to hide it.
304

Buckfastleigh,

asleep 27/07/2008 23:08:31
#351 Pretty low this! What's wrong with MacWhirter; of course he is biased but who is not, pray?

Besides even he gets things right on occasion.
305

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/07/2008 23:11:37
As for the SNP their brand of politics is nothing more than xenophobia tarted up as nationalism. It is based on years and years of hating the English.

The day I accept morons like Sandra White is the day I chuck it. Who can forget her famous 'Butcher's Apron' slur on the Union Flag and then didnt even have the guts to stand up and admit to it. She blamed an 'overzealous' speechwriter.


306

Rufus T. Firefly,

27/07/2008 23:14:44
Here is a good website for those people that like to buy their Christmas presents early.

http://www.unionjackshop.com/
307

European Scot,

27/07/2008 23:21:00
351 Rufus T. Firefly

"Anyway, if you read MacWhirter's articles regularly and indeed watch his interviews on Tv, you will know that he is far from being a balanced reporter."

Well I have seen some of the most one sided, and at times, downright aggressive examples of television interviewing in the past year.
Also, having read sheer Unionist propaganda in papers like this one, I would be interested to see who would be your selection of a balanced reporter.
308

European Scot,

27/07/2008 23:33:26
354 Rufus T.Firefly

" Here is a good website for those people that like to buy their Christmas presents early "

No thank you, such a product is used by the BNP

I much prefer originals, not artificial and not contrived.

Try : http://www.snp.org/shop/cart.php?target=category&category_id=45
309

An Beal Bacht,

28/07/2008 05:22:38
Would a snap general election be in Scotland's interests? Are we ready? The strategy is outlined by an unnamed source:

"We get it over now and we don't allow the Tories to build a swing like the one we had in 1997."

He's obviously talking about England as a "Tory Slide" is unimaginable in Scotland. In Scotland the slide will be to the SNP. Has the momentum built up sufficiently for the SNP or is it too early?

Equally, the lab strategy is to intentionally gift power to the Tories as an economic poison pill:

"They say David Cameron's Conservatives would be forced into power without having prepared enough for the tough economic times ahead."

As Alex Salmond has pointed out, Scotland could benefit from this scenario, but only if the Tories don't gain a majority, and only if the SNP are returned in large numbers. Are we ready?
310

An Beal Bacht,

28/07/2008 05:24:34
353 - horsepucky !
311

,

28/07/2008 10:28:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
312

,

28/07/2008 14:43:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
313

Richard Lionheart,

28/07/2008 16:56:05
This could be the first sensible suggestion from Labour in years! Go for it!

We cannot as a country afford another 18 months of Gordon Brown changing laws and increasing taxes. (pretending he knows what he is doing.)

As an aside, Labour’s Green credentials are also called into doubt. They have us all unable to travel by car and tax us to the hilt because of so called Co2’s damaging the environment. People are not “allowed” to fly off on holiday, yet one of Labour’s biggest financers Richard Branson is getting ready to send people on space hops at £200,000 per flight.

Where is it necessary for people to do this? There is no point in their journey they do not need to make it!

So GB if RB can do this, it is time for you to scap teh Green Taxes.
314

Richard Lionheart,

28/07/2008 16:57:35
er....

So GB if RB can do this, it is time for you to scrap the Green Taxes.
315

Fairfax,

29/07/2008 10:34:09
Graham Simpson (345): "I was astonished to hear so many English accents over the phone in Central Edinburgh and found out later that there are about 400.000 English born residents in Scotland. i.e. close to 8% of our population."

In fact, that's probably an underestimate, although accurate figures are rare birds in British demography. I would estimate that the English population of Scotland is roughly 10%. Obviously the population density varies greatly, with Edinburgh being a high density area.

"Not that I object to anyones presence in Scotland but it is a sobering thought if you are working towards independence."

It's hard to say what proportion of the English population of Scotland support (or oppose) Scottish independence, but it's certainly an interesting question. Consider, for example, the choices to be made at a Scottish referendum. Will the English in Scotland be allowed to vote on Scottish independence? What would happen if polls indicated that the vote on independence were narrowly lost because of English votes in Scotland?
316

megz,

glasgow (not in middle england) 29/07/2008 11:57:03
'Labour MPs south of the border are thought to be demanding that the party effectively gives up on Scotland and sets about trying to win back middle England.'

Nice to know where scotland stands in labours priorities eh? Oh well i spose they assume that people in scotland will vote for them regardless and they can focus their energy and what little money they have on middle england.
317

danbob,

29/07/2008 12:51:08
After reading the story I must say I was very disapointed. Reading the headline I thought all the MPs were going to elect for suicide. Never mind theres always next week.
318

Possil,

Glasgow 31/07/2008 10:09:31
"Those who back deposing Brown say that, even if they were to lose the snap election, it would be better than staying on in power. They say David Cameron's Conservatives would be forced into power without having prepared enough for the tough economic times ahead."

So we are not really interested about maintaining some form of stability here? Let's just invite chaos! Pathetic!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.