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Israel looks to cut Gaza links



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Published Date: 25 January 2008
ISRAEL wants to cut its links with the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip after militants blasted open the territory's border with Egypt in defiance of an Israeli blockade.
Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, said yesterday that Israel wanted to wash its hands of Gaza altogether by handing over supply of electricity, water and medicine to others. An Israeli security official said Egypt should take over responsibility.

"We need to understand that when Gaza is open to the other side (Egypt], we lose responsibility for it. So we want to disconnect from it," Mr Vilnai told Army Radio.

Yesterday Egyptian border guards steered huge crowds of Palestinians as they continued to stream from Gaza to Egypt.

Egyptian officials said the border would eventually "return to normal," and Egyptian police prevented Gazans from moving deeper into Egypt.

Gazans had hoped the temporary border opening would become permanent.

Israel has said since the 2005 pull-out that it should not be considered an occupying power in Gaza. But it has maintained control of Gaza's northern and eastern border crossings and its airspace and coastal waters.

The blockade Israel has imposed on the Strip since the Hamas takeover became almost complete a week ago after rocket attacks against southern Israel.

Yossi Alpher, former director of the Jaffee Centre for Strategic Studies in Tel Aviv, said Mr Vilnai's statement was more than his own personal views. "This reflects the (Israeli] government's wishful thinking" he said.

He said severing all Israel's links would depend on Egyptian readiness to leave the border open and "would take a long time even if Egypt was willing to take Gaza off Israel's hands."

Egyptian officials angrily dismissed Mr Vilnai's proposal. "This is a wrong assumption," said Hossam Zaki, the spokesman for Egypt's foreign ministry. "The current situation is only an exception and for temporary reasons. The border will eventually go back to normal."

Hamas has used the breach – carefully planned, with militants weakening the metal wall with blow torches about a month ago – to push its demand for reopening the border passages, this time with Hamas involvement. Such an arrangement would in effect end the international sanctions against the Islamic militants.

Taher Nunu, a Hamas government spokesman, suggested yesterday that Hamas would seek a future role on the Gaza-Egypt border. "An open border like this has no logic," he said. "We are studying the mechanism of having an official crossing point."

However, it's not clear whether Egypt will acquiesce. The Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, has been under intense public pressure at home to alleviate the suffering of Gazans under blockade. However, Egypt would likely be reluctant to have an open border with a territory ruled by Islamic militants.

Mr Vilnai's proposal goes against a cardinal principle that has underpinned past Palestinian-Israeli negotiations, namely that the West Bank and Gaza be treated as one territorial unit. The de facto division between the territories was accentuated when Hamas took over the Strip in June, with the moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, forming a new government responsible for the West Bank.

Jamil Majdalawi, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council from Gaza City, said Mr Vilnai's proposal aimed at "making permanent the division between the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

"This destroys the unity of the Palestinian people," he said.

The Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, said in an interview yesterday that Israel was still considering a large-scale military operation to counter rockets from Gaza.

"Probably we will find ourselves there. We are not rushing to reconquer Gaza but will not remove any option from the table when it comes to our citizens' security," he said.

PLEASE KEEP BORDER OPEN

GAZANS say they want their new-found freedom to continue.

"For God's sake, why don't (the Egyptians] keep allowing us to pass through?" Mohammed Abu Amra, a Palestinian crossing the border on crutches, said. "Everyone is rushing into Egypt before they seal it off."

In the past two days, Gazans in Egypt have stocked up on the likes of cigarettes, cement and fuel. In response, Israel stopped emergency shipments of diesel fuel, arguing Gazans could get supplies from Egypt.

Cross-border cargo shipments have picked up, using the back-to-back system. Trucks and donkey carts pull up to the Egyptian side and the goods are unloaded and carried across to Gaza, to be put on waiting trucks.

"We just want freedom," said Adel Tildani as he crossed to Egypt. "I don't need to buy anything. Freedom is more important."

The full article contains 756 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 January 2008 12:46 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Middle East conflict
 
1

,

25/01/2008 00:06:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
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2

American,

25/01/2008 00:13:50
"Israel wanted to wash its hands of Gaza altogether"--what the heck took you so long israel? Let egypt deal with the palestinians. Maybe they'll get the daily missiles and the pc police after them.
3

American,

25/01/2008 00:17:00
Why is it ok for egypt to have walls, but not israel (especially considering all the palestinian homicide bombers and rockets being blasted at israel).
4

Roberta Burns,

25/01/2008 00:35:58
Nobody would mind walls around Israel, as long as they stop the genocide in Palestine
5

,

25/01/2008 00:43:09
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6

57Nomad,

california 25/01/2008 00:55:54
#4 Roberta burns

roberta said:

"Nobody would mind walls around Israel, as long as they stop the genocide in Palestine"

Roberta, here's how you can tell that the Israelis are not practicing genocide in Palestine. Look around. Do you see Palestinians? Sure you do. If the Israelis were practicing genocide, you wouldn't see any of them, they would all be dead.
7

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 01:39:03
mubarak is the bought creature of america this move is a typical product of the # new order in the middle east #delusional claptrap as envisioned by AIPAC bought war criminals in the septic estalishment####### its stupid and dangerous but what else can you expect from corrupted politians dancing to the zionist drum
8

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 02:01:05
nomad wandering aimless on gaza looking for a new pair of eyes the ones hes got cant focus on landtheft lebensraum inhumanity(he sees no inhumanity in collective punishment slaughtering children from helicopters hi tech baby killing )no these he feels are proportial acts to preserve this entity from its inevitable demise the world that you cant bribe or corrupt the world of the decent people cant abide zionism in their very stomachs
9

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 02:32:08
The genocide being committed in Palestine is being committed by the Palestinians. By not giving them the aid that was given to them, and spending it on weapons to attack Israel with is the genocide.
Palestinians kill each other...and it means nothing to them to throw someone off a roof.
If they would stop sending those rockets into Israel, there would be no punishment.
Let the Arabs take care of the Arabs..

bitfree.. you have to be a troll..and by the way .. hate permeates every post of yours. No one slaughters children, just the Arabs hiding behind them are responsible. You sound just like them. It's every body elses fault. They have to take responsible for themselves.
AND STOP SENDING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.
10

,

25/01/2008 03:48:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

The Pict.,

canada 25/01/2008 03:58:17
# 9 Lynne. Why don't you give the land that you've stolen from the Palestinians back to them. You keep them living less than pigs in filthy conditions in THEIR own country. Don't forget the first TERRORIST ACT was committed in Egypt by the blowing up of the King David hotel by your ZIONISTS one of whom you made prime minister of Israel --- Menachen Began. Don't forget that Israel has all the lastest American F 16's bulldozers, cluster bombs etc. which you use to slaughter innocent women,men and children because the Palestinians have nothing in comparison.

Who gave you the right to steal their land and drive thousands of peaceful Palestinians FROM of THEIR land and then refuse to let them come back?
GIVE THE THE STOLEN LAND BACK. YOU DON'T FOOL ANYBODY.
12

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 04:00:15
apoligies should have read ideologies not race its zionists i despise not hebrews
13

,

25/01/2008 05:35:51
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14

Lynne,

USA.. 25/01/2008 05:37:16
that was for #11...YOU DON'T FOOL ANYONE with your repetion of lies.
15

Laurie A.,

B.C., Canada 25/01/2008 05:54:43
Israel will be darned if they do and darned if they don't so they may as well totally divest themselves from Gaza. Close off all entrances from Israel to Gaza, no produce from Gaza enters Israel or any products from elsewhere go into Gaza, except through Egypt. Supply no electricity or fuel, no water supplies, no jobs in Israel and no medical care in Israel. Let the U.N.W.R.A and other care agencies and whatever enter Gaza via Egypt. No passage from the West Bank through Israel to Gaza, let them go through Jordan and Egypt. This will give the whiners a little less to vent their biases over.

16

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 05:55:27
6
57Nomad,

"Roberta, here's how you can tell that the Israelis are not practicing genocide in Palestine. Look around. Do you see Palestinians? Sure you do. If the Israelis were practicing genocide, you wouldn't see any of them, they would all be dead."

--So, in your opinion, there was no genocide in 30/40's Europe? I await Daithe (alt?), Lynne and Tikun to be on you like poop on velcro for being a "denier".

Lynne at 9

Mirror, Lynne, Mirror!

_______________

So, ze final solution is in progress, ja? The Israelis have managed to divide Palestine and are now working to make Gaza an annex to Egypt.
17

,

25/01/2008 06:54:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
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18

Ken Mare,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 08:59:54
Its comical to see the number of posts from America whenever there's a Palestine/Israel news story published. Are they really regular readers of The Scotsman/EEN? What's the reason for this - 'Megaphone' perhaps? Doh ! Open your eyes people. Take those blinkers aff.
19

lielayer,

25/01/2008 09:33:59
ISRAEL OWES HUMANITARIAN OBLIGATIONS TO GAZA RESIDENTS BECAUSE OF CONTINUED CONTROL

Israel has not relinquished control over Gaza but rather removed some elements of control while tightening other significant controls. Far from improving the economy and welfare of Gaza residents, Israeli actions since September 2005—including severe restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza and an economic stronghold on the funding of civil services—have contributed to an economic and humanitarian crisis in Gaza not seen in the 38 years of Israeli control that preceded the withdrawal of permanent ground troops.

Israel continues to owe legal obligations to residents of Gaza in the significant areas in which their lives are subject to and affected by Israeli control. That responsibility exists under human rights law, Israeli law, and the international law of belligerent occupation, primarily the Hague Regulations of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. Israel is bound to respect the rights of Gaza residents in its control of Gaza's borders, population registry, tax system, and other areas, and it also owes positive duties to permit and to facilitate the proper functioning of civilian institutions in Gaza, pursuant to international humanitarian law.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmfaff/363/363we13.htm
20

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 12:18:53
returnd to thread to find some posts aknowledged deleted others simply VANANUd any one who read them will know i NEVER post rascist or gratuitously offensive contributions--- rent a mob american trolls it seems cannot just have one gagged but completely dissapeared GROW A SPINE scotsman editors but until you do i will find a compliment in the fact that corporal jones's old refrain is proven 100% correct
21

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 12:24:05
lielayer..as long as Hamas is launching rokets into Israel, Israel owes it NOTHING, AND as soon as the Arabs learn to take care of thmselves, and other countries supply them with those necessities, Israel can wipe their hands of them totally.
22

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 12:32:32
Finnking...nothing to say? Can't disprove the point?
YOU look into a mirror. I just spoke the truth.
23

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 12:34:52
the zionists will consider this a great victory i am sure but britfree will now withdraw from the board scotsman editors should be ashamed of the supine surrender to orchestrated pressure but no-one should be suprised someone with a camelon address can have less free speech than lynne from usa
24

Findlay Thompson,

25/01/2008 12:52:07
Lynne, USA.

I had a dream the other night...it was relating to the onset of WWIII. The war was brought on by a group of people who made up 0.0973% of the world poulation.

One tiny group of people responsible for the end of humanity.

Scary isn't it!
25

william c,

Blantyre 25/01/2008 13:01:54
Am I missing something, humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
thousands of Gazans cross Egypt border to BUY supplies?
Egyptians raise prices to Make profit?
Where is the Money coming from? also do the Egyptian's not have a right to their Country without invading hoards?
Hamas and the Gazans need to take responsibility for their own actions, all Islamic Groups have no respect for other nations or groups and believe hey can kill to get what they want. Fortunately Israel have leadership that says we will protect our people. Egypt
will wake up and say the same.
26

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 13:19:13
#24 Findlay

So you blame women for being raped and Israel for being attacked.

Facinating 'logic'
27

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 13:23:28
An elderly Jewish man is sitting on a park bench reading britfee's message board posts.
His best friend walks by, sees the screen, and stops---in shock,"What are you doing reading that trash?" he says. "You should be reading the Jewish Journal!
"The elderly man replies, "The Jewish Journal has stories about inter-marriage, anti-Semitism, problems in Israel -- all kinds of troubles of the Jewish people.
I like to read about good news.

britfree's message board posts all say
the Jews/Zionists control the politicians...
the Jews/Zionists control the banks...
the Jews/Zionists control the press...
the Jews/Zionists control Hollywood...

Better to read nothing but good news !!!!
28

Reading Public 1,

Wisc 25/01/2008 13:35:59
Why don't they give it to the Palestinians?
29

Findlay Thompson,

25/01/2008 13:37:13
#26

Tikun,

I speak Cantonese, do you speak Mandarin? I would dearly like to learn and understand your language!
30

Findlay Thompson,

25/01/2008 13:38:26
Tikun

Your frank and honest post #27 is a real eye-opener. Thanks for sharing with us your wisdom!
31

,

25/01/2008 13:42:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
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32

RCI,

Lanarkshire 25/01/2008 13:53:08
The existance of Israel is owed to a tenuous 2000 year old claim to the lands between the Sinai and the Euphrates. This claim was given life in the 20th Century thanks to inept British polititians like Balfour with Chrisian Zionist visions of Holy Land Crusades. The palestinian population has since this time been sidelined at every turn by duplicitous agreements, zionist terrorism, illegal occupations of land ( despite UN protests ) and indifference by Arab neighbours. In the present, Israeli jets and tanks, attack Gaza and the West Bank with casual indifference to innocent lives. Israeli soldiers treat palestinians as second class citizens and visit atrocities on them without recourse by the international community. Palestinian terrorists/freedom fighters attack Israeli targets in retaliation. A vicious circle has ensued with innocent men women and children being killed and maimed on both sides of the divide.
The Israeli policy of blockading Gaza does nothing to stop attacks but emboldens the cause of Hamas and takes basic necessities from the mouths of children.
Israel is given free rein by USA, Britain and the UN to commit grievous acts against the poor and the dispossessed.
Israel also showed its shameful indifference to life when they cynically dropped vast numbers of cluster munitions in South Lebanon as a last act of an inept attack.
Evil begets evil and there are few clean hands in todays world.
33

,

25/01/2008 14:00:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
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34

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 14:02:07
Britfree

So you learned to say Zionist because the Scotsman editorial board won't delete your racism that way.
So?

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

Martin Luther King Jr.

http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/ml_king.html
35

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 14:05:28
#32

Funny how you lambaste Israel for a legal act of war (whether you approve or not) and yet ignore the disregard for humanity of the War Crimes committed by Hezbollah and Hamas when they intentionally shoot missiles at Israeli cities.

Funny how you ignore the fact that Jews have lived in their land in an unbroken chain for those entore 2,000 years you disparingly spoke of.

Funny how you ignore the fact that the Arabs were given 80% of the Jewish National Home by those 'inept British polititians' you spoke of.

Actually
Not funny at all
36

britfree,

britfree 25/01/2008 14:19:50
you yourself asscribed the use of the J word to me you typed your spittle flecked nonsense through the selfsame software as i have to use to enter a comment no tikun the reason i dont conflate the two is idont want to give succour to the undoubted anti-semites out there who ascribe all the evil deeds of zionism to judaism
37

Ken Mare,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:26:18
Tikun you moron.

Not all people of the Jewish faith are zionist.
38

RCI,

Lanarkshire 25/01/2008 14:29:27
#35

Hezbollah and Hamas are organisations that have commited
crimes against Israeli's. On the flip side, Israeli has committed crimes against Palestinians. They all have blood on their hands. As I stated, it is a vicious circle which does no-one any good.

I do not ignore the fact that jews and palestinians lived peacefullt together for millenia. It is mostly
20th century zionist in-comers that have stirred the
situation. Palestinians initially fought in the protection of their homes which were being taken over by people with a vision of one people ( the Jews ) to the exclusion of all others.

There never was a Jewish National Homeland. It was an aspiration.

Tikun, I have noticed from your posts that you have said nothing constructive. All your posts have been of a retaliatory nature.

Have you consider a job in the Knesset.



39

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 14:43:00
#37

Perhaps if you were a little less of a microcephalic natterjjack, you would know that, while there is a micro percentage of Jews that do not believe that the State of Israel should exist, 99.9% do.
The Majority of Christians are Zionists as well, in that they too believe that Jews deserve their own homeland as much as any other peoples.
And even Muslims, that care more about the Koran (which specifies Israel as the land of the Jews) than stealing land, are Zionists.
40

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 14:50:00
#38

That yo spew propoganda and pretend it to be truth is your own issue, not mine.
That you believe you lies to be constructive is you right, but hardly true.

While you m,ay object to Israel's use of Cluster Munitions, the fact is that they are a legal means of waging war, a war started by Hezbollah when it crossed the international border and killed and kidnapped Israeli troops - As the UN stated in Resolution 1709

Your attempt to tar Israel with the brush of the War Crimes committed by the Palestinians on an ongoing basis is simple and false. Israeli reposnses to Palestinian acts are no more a 'cycle' than police response to criminals. No crimes, no police respose. No acts of terror, no Israeli response.

In fact, as a gesture of good faith and to end people like you babbling about 'the cycle', Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and turned it over to the Palestinians, who responded to this act of good will by promptly using the territory as a base to launch even more War Crimes.

As to your contention pretendign as fact that there never was a Jewish homeland, the area called Palestine was referred to as the Jewish Homeland by Jews for centuries, as well as their Arab conquerers.
In fact, before 1963, when people used the term 'Palestinians', they referred to the indigenous Jewish populace. The local Arabs were referred to as 'Arabs' as Arab nationalism is a 20th century phenomena.

You seem to write absent any real knowledge of the history or the facts, merely the propogada you glean from the daily media.
Perhaps a little more knowledge would help.

41

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 15:05:55
again tikun sprays the monitor lips moving no doubt probably greatly consoled by support from the religeous right in scepticland RAPTURE lol ---what part of rational humanity subscribes to that story go on guesstimate its probably 99.9% hahahaha
42

lielayer,

25/01/2008 15:06:36
40
Tikun

Israel's racist rabbis say killing Palestinian innocents is kosher.

http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/uavnery100.htm
43

RCI,

Lanarkshire 25/01/2008 15:13:30
#40

When commenting on the use of cluster munitions, I was not disputing the legal nature of their use. I was disputing the moral use of a weapon which indiscriminately maims and kills and is a scourge on the innocent. Why not throw a little legal depleted uranium into the mix for good measure also.

I have no love of Hezbollah. There actions are reprehensible but I would say that they would disregard UN resolutions with equal contempt that Israel has done since its creation.

Also, I would hardly describe Israel and Palestinian as police to criminal.

I think your views may be a tad one-sided. Just a bit
like the fluff reported by the likes of FOX, CNN etc.





44

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 15:14:48
#42 Lie Liar

That you can find one or two crazy Jews who will say one thing is proof only of your desperation.

Now try to see if you can count the millions of statements from the Palestinians talking about how great it is to kill Jews.

Try looking up childrens television first and count just those.

That you need to spread such lies is just more proof of how weak your cause is
45

Tikun,

Greater Nashville 25/01/2008 15:23:37
#43

Agaan, YOU are free to believe that Cluster Munitions, grendades, tanks, or rifles are immoral.
The world has outlawed weapons and forms of attacks that civilized humanity agrees are imorral.
So again, YOUR morality is just that, but it is certainly one sided.

As to your slander oif Israel and UN resolutions, the old lie is still alive I see. Since General Assembly resolutions are just beauty contests, with no binding authority, Israel cannot be in violation of them any more than they are in violation of your personal morality on cluster munitions. THe General Assembly Resoltutions that people love to parade always have at least two parties that are to conform. So to pretend Israel is in violation of a Resolution that also demands the Arabs states to allow Israel to 'live in an atmosphere free from harm and the threat of harm' while raining missiles down on her cities is the height of hypocricy.

Lastly, you are free to express your sympathies for the Palewstinians and their cause ad nasuem, but not their deeds. The analogy is imperfect, but very close.
There are oppressed and occupied peoples all over this planet. But the Tibettans do not blow up Chinese restaurants. The Maori do not shoot pregnant New Zealanders. The Cherokee do not shoot missiles at Phoenix or Tuscon.
These actions are War Crimes, plain and War Crimes simple. The response by Israel to these War Crimes is analogous to actions taken by police in response to Crimes.

That you need to demean each comment I make and add another piece of pop propoganda shows that what I stated earlier is true.
A little more knowledge and a little less pop media would do you a world of good - whether I agree with your conclusions or not.
46

,

25/01/2008 15:28:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

we the people,

25/01/2008 15:40:33
the palestinians have a moral right to resist the apartheid occupation. To have a moral right to x is to have a moral right to the only way to pursue x. In the absence of the sophisticated military technology israel gets from the u.s and others, this means home made rockets and suicide bombs.would that the israeli government (as distinct from the israeli people) had any interest in peace or justice. it may be worth pursuing a distinction between the zionism that founded the israeli state and present day neo-zionism which pursues the agenda of social and cultural genocide against their 'neighbours'. Always remember - if the great judaic injunction to 'love your neighbour' has any meaning for israelis it means this: love the palestinian!
X
48

Biker,

Ayr 25/01/2008 15:41:56
Tikun
I doubt that anyone now believes that the Isreali / Palastinian fight is either just, fair, or even played from a level playing field.
The Isrealis are funded, armed and trained by the US with the best and most effective of equipment. The Palestinians however are armed by anyone able to supply the arms. Do you consider the 1 Palastinian rocket is worth the retaliation of such proportions? Do you consider almost starving a population of food, medicines and aid is just? Do you consider what happened at Sabra and Chatila camps to be the act of a fair minded society? Do you consider the treatment of Mordici Vannunu to be correct? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, them perhaps you need to think again.
In principal I agree with RCI, but feel the international comunity should now step in and attempt to help heal the growing rift.
49

RCI,

Lanarkshire 25/01/2008 15:46:31
#45

Your analogy of occupied peoples is interesting.

Are there enough Cherokee left to mount such an operation. Maybe they could appeal to the UN. Under the auspices of the USA being the land of their fathers for 2000 years, I think a precident has been set in the Holy Land for a return of their lands and hunting grounds.
They may have an equal case for War Crimes against the USA for genocide. Not to forget the Animal Rights Lobby. That was a lot of buffalo that died.
50

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 25/01/2008 16:06:32
#39 Tikun

"there is a micro percentage of Jews that do not believe that the State of Israel should exist"

I very much doubt it's a micro percentage. I just googled "jews against zionism" and it gives me 10% of the hits of "jews for zionism".
51

Findlay Thompson,

25/01/2008 16:08:58
#31

Tikun, please don't resort to insults. I used to hold you in high esteem till you decided to pen this trash.

Your comments are indefencible!

52

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 16:19:29
iam deeply sorry to have to dissagree with we the people there was no great nobility involved in the original land theft a quick look through the journals of ben gurion would soon shine an educatioal light on the rascist hatred the askenazis held towards rightful owners of the land of PALESTINE even then the enormity of the crime was begining to induce that psyhosis of denial we see in the above postings a bit like gollum covincing hiself the ring was his even though he knew he had murdered for it
53

57Nomad,

california 25/01/2008 16:21:02
#16 Finnking

Hey Fins, hows it going?:

"Roberta, here's how you can tell that the Israelis are not practicing genocide in Palestine. Look around. Do you see Palestinians? Sure you do. If the Israelis were practicing genocide, you wouldn't see any of them, they would all be dead."

--So, in your opinion, there was no genocide in 30/40's Europe?"

How do you conclude that from my comments? Had the Nazi's won the war or even held out for another year, they would have exterminated all of the European Jews. They had the intention but lacked the means.

Now lets look at the current situation. The Jews do have the means to exterminate the Palestinians, instead they are supplying them with electricity. So, as I said in #6, if the Israels were intent on wiping out the Palestinians, there wouldn't be any Palestinians. Comprende, muchacho?
54

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 16:21:04
22, Lynne

"Finnking...nothing to say? Can't disprove the point?
YOU look into a mirror. I just spoke the truth."

Did you? Let's see.... you said at 9:

"The genocide being committed in Palestine is being committed by the Palestinians."

---Wiki dictionery: "Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, religious or national group." and therefore group A cannot perform genocide on group A.

--So, a)It's not a genocide and b) it's absurd. Interestingly, I'm sure the Nazis said the same about the folk in the Warsaw Ghetto. Mirror, Lynne, mirror.

We continue:

"By not giving them the aid that was given to them, and spending it on weapons to attack Israel with is the genocide."

---Mmmm. By "Aid" I can only assume you don't mean the type of aid that the US gives to Israel ($3b per year) for weapons, so "aid" can be food and fuel or raw currency. Well, the food and fuel was stopped from going into Gaza by the Israelis and you mention "weapons" so you must be talking about money. Tell me, Lynne, what is the price differential between a hand held rocket launcher and an Apache helicopter? $1b or so? So, assuming that the money gets into Gaza (no proof, but...) a tiny fraction could be spend on rocket weapons. Tell me, out of all the "aid" that the US gives Israel, what percentage is spent of weapons? Mirror, Lynne, mirror.

Cont.....
55

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 16:21:32
Lynne cont.....

"Palestinians kill each other...and it means nothing to them to throw someone off a roof."

---That's called racism, Lynne but that's your business, not mine. However, so, no Israeli are in jail for murdering other Israelis? Can I not also state that "it means nothing for the Israelis to kill people by rockets"? Surely, you agree that it would be logical to be able to say that based upon your comment? Mirror, Lynne,mirror.

"If they would stop sending those rockets into Israel, there would be no punishment."

--Ah! So, they ARE being punished! So, here is the very foundation of your racism: you ASSUME that Israel is a position of moral authority. Let's check: "If Israel would stop stealing land, killing politicians and starving folk, there would be no punishment." You see, Lynne? the mirror, Lynne, the mirror.

"Let the Arabs take care of the Arabs.."

--I assume you are totally oblivious to the racism inherent in that. Imagine if someone said during the Holocaust, "Let the Jews take care of the Jews", Lynne? Mirror, lynne, mirror.

"bitfree.. you have to be a troll..and by the way .. hate permeates every post of yours."

--and yours, lynne, and yours. Mirror.
56

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 16:21:53
Lynne cont....

"No one slaughters children, just the Arabs hiding behind them are responsible."

--Aha? So the IDF NEVER EVER use kids as human shields, huh? Mirror.

"You sound just like them. It's every body elses fault."

---Well, you seem to blame the Palestinians and the 'arabs' for everything. Mirror!

You asked if I had nothing to say: I do and I said it. Thanks for the invite.
You claimed that I can't disprove the point and I did.

Then yuo say, " I just spoke the truth."

No, Lynne, you didn't.
57

Findlay Thompson,

Tel Aviv 25/01/2008 16:22:58
Tikun

Your posting

"With an IQ above room temperature, you would understand.

You blame Israel for being attacked by Arabs and then claim that its Israel that would start WWIII, not the genocidal Arab states and their desires to 'drive the Jews into the sea' (By the way, those are THEIR DIRECT WORDS).

Similar to blaming women for getting raped.

Your hate makes you blind to logic."


Can you please inform me when I made any comment regarding the middle east in connection with this story.

PS. Are you an Islamic extremist who's sole intention is to anger fellow posters to the point where they don't give a damn for the Jews who reside in the middle east?
58

57Nomad,

california` 25/01/2008 16:24:54
#17 guga

guga said:

"funded by the yanks, are imposing collective punishment on the people in Gaza. This is a total breach of international law."

Would you say that the practice of bombing German civilians during WWII was imposing collective punishment and a breach of international law?
59

Thomas Paine,

25/01/2008 16:28:12
"Everyone is rushing into Egypt before they seal it off." Just replace Egypt with west Germany and it's all post war era over! Amazing is the different and at the same time astonishingly similar aspects of fascism!!
60

57Nomad,

california` 25/01/2008 16:31:45
#55 Finnking

Finnking said:

""Palestinians kill each other...and it means nothing to them to throw someone off a roof."
---That's called racism, Lynne but that's your business, not mine."

No, Fins, it isn't anything of the kind. That this unsavory 'roof tossing' business took place in the recent Hamas/Fatah unpleasantness is a matter of public record. Referencing it, as Lynne did, is not racist in any way.
61

,

25/01/2008 16:32:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 16:37:26
Nomad

"Palestinians kill each other...and it means nothing to them to throw someone off a roof."

That is racist, Nomad. Deal with it.

Do a test: change the 'race' and the method: "Jews kill each other...and it means nothing to them to shoot people."--If someone said that, I would denounce them as racist.

Stick up for your wee and ever dwindling virtual harem, Nomad. You're only fooling the fools.

63

57Nomad,

california 25/01/2008 16:49:46
#61 Finnking

#61 Finnking said:

"Your comment about genocide was an absurdity and you know it."

Finns, we have been over this many times. When you say something is an absurdity you must A. Reference the passage, and B. provide an analysis to substantiate your accusation. You have done neither, and once again proved that you are an abrasive loudmouth.

Then this:

"misogynistic beliefs correlate with suppressed homosexual tendencies."

Now, here I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. What does and does not correlate with suppressed homosexual tendencies is your field of expertise, not mine. Who has the 'issues' here?



64

57Nomad,

california 25/01/2008 17:04:28
#62 Finnking

Finnking said:

""Palestinians kill each other...and it means nothing to them to throw someone off a roof."
That is racist, Nomad. Deal with it."

I had no idea you had been appointed Commissar of All Things Racist. Had I but known that you, Finnking, get to decide the Meaning of Words I would have been more careful.

You see, Finnking, in order to be a racist that person must find fault with those of a certain race, simply because they are of that particular race. Here is where your thesis falters. You see, Finnking, the Palestinians are not a race. Do you see where we're going here? Please explain how Lynne can be a racist when she hasn't said anything about their race?

Thank you for your comments on fools. Once again, this is a topic you know far more about than I do.



65

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 17:11:06
nomad only some one unsure of their argument could make such a daft comment let me just reassure you DRESDEN WAS A WARCRIME OK you fool your self not others when you attempt assign baseness to posters who shine an humanitarian light on the evil behaviour of zionism i and i dont think many others who posted on here in defence of PALESTINE do it because we support the mass murder of civilians by militaristic states sorry if that disappoints
66

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 17:16:54
finnking should stop with homosexualstuff already idoubt nomad is attractive to anybody but himself or his mum
67

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 17:20:53
Nomad

Is that it? That's the extent of your analysis of my post to Lynne?

You need to work on those abs and pecs a bit more, old man, getting lazy. The twinks wont like it.

So, saying "Jews kill each other...and it means nothing to them to shoot people." isn't racist, either? Fine. Now we know. The next time someone makes derogatory remarks about the "jews" they can cite the (evidently) out of shape Nomad and claim it not to be racist.

How about her comments on Arabs?

68

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 17:24:53
Britfree

I agree. It was simply an observation.

What gives with the Dresden stuff?
69

lielayer,

25/01/2008 17:48:57
65
britfree

"let me just reassure you DRESDEN WAS A WARCRIME"

A report by the U.S. Air Force Historical Division (USAFHD) analyzed the circumstances of the raid and concluded that it was militarily necessary and justified,

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II?t=5.#5.1.1.

An inquiry conducted at the behest of the U.S. Secretary of War, General George C. Marshall, found that the raid was justified by the available intelligence.The inquiry declared that the elimination of the German ability to reinforce a counter-attack against Marshall Konev's extended line or, alternatively, to retreat and regroup using Dresden as a base of operations, were important military objectives. As Dresden had been largely untouched during the war due to its location, it was one of the few remaining functional rail and communications centres. A secondary objective was to disrupt the industrial use of Dresden for munitions manufacture, which American intelligence believed to be the case.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II?t=5.1.2.#5.1.2.
70

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 17:57:55
Lielayer

From Wiki on dresden:

"It had been decided that the raid would be a so-called double strike, in which a second wave of bombers would attack three hours after the first, just as the rescue teams were trying to put out the fires"

there's nice.
71

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 17:58:01
Finnking..my comments on Arabs have all been proven true. Shaking hands with the Presidents, and the PMs of Israel..who Arafat had promised to stop the attacks and suicide bombings on Israel...LIED...LIED...LIED..
It doesn't make me a racist..it makes me a realist.
All he did was go home and the PLO continued their attacks.
So you DEAL WITH IT!!
72

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 18:06:43
finnking #nevermind the banter# dresden you know of course is an ancient city in germany that was destroyed by an incendiery bombing raid late in the war the city itself had no stategic or military signifigance i think what gonad as attempting to establish is that in the light ofme being anti zionist imust somehow support/oppose???????duh? the fire bombing of dresden i said WARCRIME WARCRIME he wont get it hes only here to report /delete posts he can never better
73

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 18:10:42
Finnking..#70.. that which you describe is just like what happens in Israel and Iraq. They wait until rescue teams come to help and blow them up too!! These are the people YOU are defending!!
74

britfree,

camelon 25/01/2008 18:15:31
lielayer dont beleive all that guff it was to destroy one thing residual german resistence hence the barbarity of the act the overkill thus WARCRIME anyway id rather ignore lynne and mash up diathi
75

thewitness,

25/01/2008 18:24:13
#58 (57Nomad)
You said...
Would you say that the practice of bombing German civilians during WWII was imposing collective punishment and a breach of international law?

Yes Nomad, but a better question is this.
General Dwight Eisenhower,a hero who saved us from Nazis? Or a Mass Murdering Zionist?
http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Eisenhower.html

An Eyewitness to the Firebombing of Dresden
http://www.erichufschmid.net/EyewitnessToDresden.html

76

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 18:25:32
71
Lynne,

"my comments on Arabs have all been proven true"

Would that include the one about them in "pig Sties"?

Here, listen, in terms of Hasbara, shouldn't the "Israel is acting in self defense" routine come before the "Arafat" routine? Just a thought. You see the "self defense" routine allows lots of red herrings to deflect from the article while the "arafat" routine is kinda lame as it doesn't lead to lots of fog and it's easily countered by saying "Olmert! LIAR LIAR LIAR!---Annapolis: Israel wont build any new settlements.And then they did just that"

No, better to play the "defense" card prior to the "arafat" card.
77

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 18:34:25
Finnking...thisis what Pict, Canada said.


You keep them living less than pigs in filthy conditions.
78

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 18:46:58
And by the way..they wouldn't be living this way if their leaders didn't steal the aid money. That's right!! It is missing, used, lost, and every excuse under the sun, but stolen. I am sure Mrs. Arafat and daughter live high on the hog.. Arafat...LIAR LIAR LIAR..
We (USA) also give the Palestinians more money than the Arab countries, and this last time, more than we gave Israel...
79

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 18:56:31
Here's what Lynne, USA, said;

"Lynne,. USA 25/01/2008 05:35:51. The Palestinians made their own pig sties. They haven't improved it an iota since Israel gave it back. .."

...a comment that is now deleted (imagine!) but still alive in the cyber ether thanks to Google! Bless them.
80

busybee,

California 25/01/2008 18:57:19
Here is my take on the whole issue. Israel got their land through Britian. If I'm wrong let me know. Saying it belongs to Palestine doesn't make it legally belong to Palestine. Legally it belongs to Israel, and all the wishing and hoping won't change that. Must go through legal factions. There are countries that want to completely rid Israel, there are countries that won't acknowledge their existance. Hard to compromise with those countries... They're ALWAYS on defensive, and now Hamas, A TERRORIST GROUP that has political pull on "Palestine" (a people without a land), launching rockets into Israel, Israel launches air strikes, mostly vs Hamas, but then innocent people get killed (as would happen in that situation)... Israel obviously will put their people first, but the ban on supplies... well, that really sucks for the Palestinians... because they're are denied necessities... So they get desperate, as any people would do who are locked down with no means of living, and now we got this whole mess going on... Neither side is perfect, but something needs to be done. Instead of arguing who is to blame, what is a good solution?
81

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 19:06:14
Britfree

Yes, I know of Dresden. Sure there were munitions works there but the very fact that the place had not been a target through much of the war surely indicates the murderous aspect of the bombing. Was it to aid the USSR, the real saviours of Europe from Nazi tyranny?

You know about the firestorms of Tokyo? Unreal: total massacre for no rational reasoning others than to kill civilians.
82

mike - across the pond,

RCI.... finn... all the other bashers.... 25/01/2008 19:08:17
here is an aspect of the goings on of the last century that you seem bent on ignoring...

please explain the census figures from the 20's on... early census figures show a fairly steady jewish population througout the region... somewhere just below 10%...

please explain to me what happened that caused the jewish population figures to plummet coincidentally with the creation of the jewish state...

dont be an appologizer... just come up with something I could believe in that would make that make sense of this...

before you say... they all just voluntarily packed up and moved to "zion"... we BOTH know that that is a load of crap... these people existed functionally in those areas for 10,000 years... there is no reason for them to abandon their livlihoods, pack up and move... the common guy doesnt cash in his chips, pack up and move... not on THAT kind of scale...

bottom line, any guilt for "landgrabbing" could be found on BOTH sides... Arab states did it from their jews just as much as the Brits did from the arabs...
83

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/01/2008 19:15:56
Mike:

" A snapshot at figures of immigration (Aliyah) to the Land of Israel (Palestine) and to the State of Israel reveals the following: between 1882-1947, in successive waves of immigration, some 543,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine, joining the 24,000 who lived there. During the first three years of statehood (1948-1950), the average annual growth rate of the Jewish population was about 24 percent, and between 1948-1952, mass immigration of 711,000 supplemented a population of 630,000. Recently, Israel witnessed a massive influx of Soviet immigrants. During 1990-1998 the Israeli population of 4.56 million was enriched by 879,486 immigrants, a growth rate of 19.3 percent. In 1991, 15,000 Jews were airlifted in one single day in "Operation Solomon"."

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=219872

Facts are cheils that winnea ding.
84

Lynne,

USA 25/01/2008 19:17:18
Finnking... no matter how many times you try to prove that I first said it was pig sties...you are wrong or lying. In # 11...that is ELEVEN Pict. said it.. I just answered him.
So we see how you LIE, LIE, LIE
85

we the people,

25/01/2008 19:22:24
Hi Britfree,
yes you're correct of course. the slaughter and displacement through which the founding of israel was achieved were anything but noble (as you correctly point out, the protagonists were unashamed, and scarcely tried to hide it, in fact they've bequethed their tactics to subsequent generations of israeli leaders.) I was referring to a distinction ted honderich (humanity, terrorism and terrorist war) makes, from the standpoint of analytic philosophy, but didn't have the time to elaborate. i can't do it justice here but i think the book's interesting so worth a look. anyway, your point is well taken.
best for burns night!
86

Tikun,

Nashville 25/01/2008 19:29:35
#57 Findlay,

You asked where you blamed the victim? Are you serious?

I had a dream the other night...it was relating to the onset of WWIII. The war was brought on by a group of people who made up 0.0973% of the world poulation.

One tiny group of people responsible for the end of humanity.

Like I said, you must also blame women for being raped.
87

mike - across the pond,

finnking and bitfree.... 25/01/2008 19:35:42
war is not pretty...

I dont know what you are trying to achieve... without bombing the heart of Germany and Japan, their war machine would have continued

allowing the Axis war machine free reign, the war would have continued... denial of the ability of axis forces to bring new technologies, german designed jet fighters would have changed the complexion of the entire war effort both in the European theater and the Pacific...

you really need to separate the pacific and europe for adequate analysis...

Europe... bombing civillian targets became a trade the allies were willing to make (I believe you will find that the nazis didnt start V2 attacks on london until we bombed berlin during the battle for brittian)... and if that didnt happen, the germans would have kept air superiority, ultimately invaded brittian, and wed be having this discussion in GERMAN....

firebombing Dresden... ghastly, but necessary to insure the end result

Japan and the pacific... you are applying modern western morals and standards to asian forces, leadership, and fighting styles of a previous time...
please look up the term vivisection... as it applied to the training of Japanese army surgeons and chinese POW camps... it is appalling
please look up germ warfare as it related to the sack of nanking... again appalling
please take the time to search the japanese vocabulary for the term surrender... it doesnt exist

you will call me racist (and I dont care)... but the opponent we faced in the pacific fought by an entirely different set of rules, both from the way we fought at the time, and certainly from the ideals we strive to adhere to today

firebombing Tokyo... nuking Nagasaki, and Hiroshima... all necessary... (and please note that Tokyo was the #1 target for both of the nukes, Tokyo was saved due to cloud cover) this was a hearts and minds issue, the will to fight had to be overcome... this war had to be drawn to a close while we had the upper hand.