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Published Date: 24 October 2008
THE UK Treasury yesterday indicated for the first time that it may consider injecting funds into an independent HBOS if the bank's proposed merger with Lloyds TSB collapses.
The move is a departure from the Treasury's repeated refusal to say what it might do in such an event, which it sees as "hypothetical".

It also offers hope to any HBOS shareholders opposed to the merger that an alternative rescue package for the
bank could emerge.

And it casts doubt on comments earlier this week by Lord Mandelson, the new Business Secretary, that the £11.5 billion government bail-out for HBOS was "predicated" on the merger going ahead.

The Scotsman learned yesterday that Chancellor Alistair Darling was "prepared to listen" to any new proposal from HBOS in the event that the merger with Lloyds TSB, which is itself in line for £5.5 billion of government cash, collapsed or was rejected by shareholders.

A source close to Mr Darling said an alternative recapitalisation programme could still go ahead if HBOS applied for it, but the amount would need to be reconsidered.

The source said: "The Financial Services Authority would decide on the level of capitalisation. They would assess what was needed. HBOS could raise it on the open market and if they didn't, they could go back to the government."

The development comes as the Office of Fair Trading today submits its report on the proposed merger to Lord Mandelson. The report, which is unlikely to be published for some weeks, analyses the impact of a merged institution on High Street competition and the effect on customers. It does not consider the effect of HBOS remaining independent.

Alistair Carmichael, the Liberal Democrat shadow Scottish secretary, described the Treasury's new stance as a "significant development". He said: "It's certainly welcome, though there is a long way to go.

"Things have moved on so far and so fast since the takeover was first mooted that we can't treat it as it was. Looking to the long term, there is a real problem in terms of the competition element of the takeover. It's not good, particularly for the Scottish financial sector, and it's not good for the high street competition point of view."

The merger is favoured by Labour and the Tories, while the SNP and Lib Dems have called for a period of reflection. HBOS believes the merger is the best way to ensure the bank has sufficient access to funds at a time when inter-bank loans are more difficult and more expensive to secure.

An HBOS spokesman said: "It makes real economic sense for HBOS to be part of a bigger and stronger group."

Top banker calls for Bank of Scotland to be separate

A LEADING Scottish banker has added his voice to calls for Bank of Scotland to be run as a separate entity.

Charles Munn, the former chief executive of the Chartered Institute of Bankers in Scotland, said he believed Bank of Scotland should be spun off as a separate company when HBOS is taken over by Lloyds TSB.

Mr Munn, who is to speak today at a workshop hosted by the University of Glasgow's Centre for Business History, told The Scotsman that it was crucial to the Scottish economy for the bank to retain head offices here. He said: "As an old Scottish banker, I would like to see the merger not happen. I would much prefer to go back to where we were before – when Bank of Scotland was disengaged from Halifax.

"It is always an advantage for a country to have headquarters of big corporations, the decision-makers, based (in it]."





The full article contains 614 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

23/10/2008 23:59:31
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2

,

24/10/2008 00:10:23
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3

lulach mac gille coemgain,

24/10/2008 01:21:52
This makes yee p*sh yer knickers - G8 protestors - redundant throo events ! heh heh !
4

terry osser,

morden 24/10/2008 04:43:20
number one you beat me to it
5

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 24/10/2008 05:23:24
Ha Ha Ha, Bring them on and his Unionist fellow travelers preferred option of destroying the Scottish Financial sector is unraveling.

Public opinion is so against it that if Labour goes ahead with their scheme they will be banished to the political wilderness, like the Tories, for decades.

Now they are desperately looking for wiggle room before their climbdown.

Ha Ha Ha!
6

donald,

glasgow 24/10/2008 06:25:19
The Herald has banned all comments. Is this because there are less Onionists than in Embra?
7

TWC,

Ayrshire 24/10/2008 08:20:30
Did You use the Contact us facility?

Well done the Scotsman for fighting this HBoS issue. The implications are extreme for Scotland
8

,

24/10/2008 08:35:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
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9

Angleland Isover,

24/10/2008 08:42:56
Angleland will stop at nothing to keep ancient Scotland in thrall. Remember Darien.
10

JulesF,

Kirkliston 24/10/2008 08:43:17
'said he believed Bank of Scotland should be spun off as a separate company when HBOS is taken over by Lloyds TSB.'

That's the bottom line !
11

K McDonald,

Glasgow 24/10/2008 08:46:06
Cole Sear: I want to tell you my secret now. I see dead banks.

Malcolm Crowe: In your dreams?

[Cole shakes his head no]

Malcolm Crowe: While you're awake?

[Cole nods]

Malcolm Crowe: Dead banks like, in graves? In coffins?

Cole Sear: Walking around like regular banks. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're dead.

Malcolm Crowe: How often do you see them?

Cole Sear: All the time. They're everywhere.
12

Marian,

24/10/2008 08:59:08
It is a sad day for Scotland when New Labour and its media acolytes first response to the unfolding tragic financial crisis hitting RBS and HBOS is to try and score cheap points against the SNP government of Scotland and its leader Alex Salmond. If these myopic unionists took the time to listen and understand what the SNP is about they would have realised that an independent Scotland would have been economically managed very differently from England and more than likely similarly to Norway with its own long-term oil fund to backup its economy and as such would not have been suffering in the way that the UK is going to under the catastrophic errors that New Labour has made.

We should not forget for one minute that there is overwhelming evidence that Gordon Brown has long been a worshipper of the unfettered regulation of U.S. and U.K. financial institutions that Milton Friedman and Margaret Thatcher wrought upon the U.S. and U.K. economies, and that it is ultimately his inaction as Chancellor in not curbing the dodgy activities of the UK's financial institutions over the past 11 years that has led the UK into becoming the worst affected G7 economy after the U.S.A.
13

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 09:08:06
#6 Kampung Highlander

It never ceases to amaze me. Every single story has to be about 'unionism' and 'nationalism', doesn't it?

Well check it out: 'unionism' and 'nationalism' wouldn't have made the slightest difference to HBOS. It wouldn't have made a difference if Scotland was independent, and it wouldn't have hade a difference if the Conservatives, the LibDems, or the Monster Raving Loony party was in power.

14

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 09:14:02
sm753 (14): "H has been integrating with BOS since 2001. How do you choose what to spin off? At what cost? Why should LTSB bother to do that?"

It's not necessarily expensive if the "spin off" is simply facade. Here I have in mind the RBS strategy following the acquisition of NatWest: the banks were integrated, but NatWest customers see little indication at branch, ATM, or website level that they're actually RBS customers. This rebranding would then require little more than some branch shopfitting (such maintenance occurs periodically in any case) and some website/ATM rebranding. Therefore the cost need not be great. It also has the added advantage of placating nationalist feeling in Scotland.
15

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 09:19:14
Kampunghighlander (6): "Public opinion is so against it that if Labour goes ahead with their scheme they will be banished to the political wilderness, like the Tories, for decades."

I also oppose the deal, primarily because it's bad for Lloyds. However, I don't understand why the Lloyds TSB takeover is opposed so viscerally: the alternative is, essentially, nationalization -- in both case, HBOS ends up dominated by an essentially English group, whether it's Lloyds or the 90% of UK taxpayers who are English. What's the difference?
16

inkster,

24/10/2008 09:25:07
It's vital to keep HQ's in Scotland especially ones with worldwide brand names like RBS and BoS.

HBOS is just like Britoil, based in Glagow, which was taken over by BP in 1988 with OFT approval.

17

Rob,

24/10/2008 09:30:26
#20. Salmond only scores cheap points Marian so it's fair to let a few others have a shotty.

#23 Thanks for reminding us how good the Scottish Power management was vis a vis Pacific Corp. Yep, we need more of that ...........and another Englishman to sort out the mess. Just think what we could have done to HBOS! Wow. If only we'd had the chance........

Very much hope that Lloyds kicks this deal in to touch
18

TWC,

Ayrshire 24/10/2008 09:32:09
I would prefer HBoS or BoS to remain independent if it can do so. If it can't well and good so long as there is an enquiry into the original activity and the OFT report is not restricted to Mandelson and co.
He is not an asset to labour or Scotland.
19

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 24/10/2008 09:32:10
For the past two weeks, the government has been harping on about how this shotgun wedding must go ahead in order to protect HBOS. Now they admit that there are possible alternatives - so why go ahead at all?

So many socio-economic problems will be created by this merger. It is not a matter of commonsense, good economics or even the fate of 40,000 employees and their families. This merger is all about saving the reputation of our sub-prime minister.
20

inkster,

24/10/2008 09:36:32
Banks even Scots, are just ordinary companies, trading in the ultimate commodity, money. The directors only duty is to make money and obey regulation law.

Bankers are just ordinary people, their morality is no higher or lower than some, for example, running a bus company or cheap replacement car part company.

They are usurers, which is not an honourable profession.

They need regulation.

Gordon Brown failed to supply that.

He is the equivalent of a rusty exhaust, gun-gummed up to the eyebrows and blowing all over the place.

He needs to be replaced - urgently
21

thistle do,

here n'there 24/10/2008 09:42:44
Get real folks. If HBOS is such a great bank how come it was in such a state before being given the big bung. For me to use it again it would have to get rid of ALL the big shots who drove it into the ground in which case why not have it run by Lloyds TSB. Stop being so insular about global matters.

I wonder what the rag would have been saying if the Government hadn't slung them the bung?
22

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 09:56:59
26

also oppose the deal, primarily because it's bad for Lloyds. However, I don't understand why the Lloyds TSB takeover is opposed so viscerally: the alternative is, essentially, nationalization -- in both case, HBOS ends up dominated by an essentially English group, whether it's Lloyds or the 90% of UK taxpayers who are English. What's the difference?

Dont you mean it would be 100% British? or does that automatically imply that it will be 90% English?
23

shivago8,

livingston 24/10/2008 10:13:28
Hurrah for common sense,anyone in favour of losing this great bank should have their scottish blood drained
24

Miss H,

24/10/2008 10:16:07
Anne McGuire was on GMS this morning actively attacking HBOS and saying that the Treasury money was conditional on the merger. Obviously not very well briefed!
25

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:21:06
42

Maybe he is using Government derived statistics?
26

Miss H,

24/10/2008 10:23:39
46 After the past few months most folks want to nationalise the lot of them. Free market capitalism does not have a lot of credibility left.
27

SEUMAS,

fearn 24/10/2008 10:23:50
##20##
Marian---your post has fairly touched a raw unionist nerve: they hate to hear the truth and as alec would say"facts are chiels that winna ding"
28

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:28:21
42

Did you see the news report the other day on Police statistics regarding serious crime in England and Wales?
Apparently all of the Police constabularies in England and Wales have misrepresented their statistics on Knife crime and GBH by publishing lower incidence figures than have actually been reported.
It seems to be therefore that to call Glasgow the Knife crime capital of Europe as you have stated on these blogs quite a few times would be inaccurate inappropriate to say the least.
I wonder where they would get the idea from regarding publishing inaccurate figures in order to show themselves in a better light from?
29

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:30:30
48

Absolutely and lets not forget the utility companies and the railways.
30

Alan B,

24/10/2008 10:31:16
#sm753

"Ah, once more the Nat obsession with a mythical, never-was alternative history. Of what earthly relevance is this?"

I would say it is very relevent. But it is just very uncomfortable for unionists.

Lets face it the unionist position both tory and labour was to go on and on that scotland would be an economic shambles if it went independent. Telling us Scotland was too small do survive alone. What we have seen since is in the last 20yrs is:

- scotland has continued to perform poorly economically both absolutely and relatively to other countries in northern europe. With less than 2% growth over the last 30yrs. Which lets face is dreadful. And 2.2% over the last decade compared to 2.8% for the uk as a whole. Oh you say but that shows a big country does better. But then you realise the group of small european countries have grown at 3.6% yrly over the decade.

- The idea that big countries have outpeformed small countries is therefore false. so while there are some theoretical benefits of being big the advantages of being small out weigh them. This has lead to Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium all having higher gdp per capita ppp than the big 4 of uk, germany, france and italy.

So i would say it is very relevent to look back and see the error we made by not going independent decades before. Particularly given the fact we had a gold mine in oil most of these other countries did not.

What annoys me more is that people like Brown who told us scotland would be impovrished independent does not have the guts to stand up and apologise and say he was wrong.

There maybe reasons why people want to remain in the union but the economy is not one going on the avaiable evidence.
31

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:31:20
54

Should have bought US dollars last November folks.
32

Alan B,

24/10/2008 10:35:04
Had to laugh at Salmond remark on question time.

When independence was brought up someone brought up ireland as a reason not to go independent.

He retorted: ireland will go into a recession like the uk 40% richer per head than the uk and come out the recession most likely 40% richer.
33

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:36:02
42

So 100% British equates to 84% English in your opinion?
34

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 10:40:56
Thank god for some common sense. By not allowing an unmerged HBOS access to capitalisation the Treasury were just giving the SNP a stick to beat the Government with.

By offering only capitalisation for the merged LTSB-HBOS it looked like a bribe for LTSB to plough ahead with the merger. At least now a decision can be taken by both HBOS and LTSB shareholders in the knowledge that capitalisation will be available no matter which way the merger goes.

That being said, I would like to see official written confirmation of this instead of the nod and wink "source close to Mr Darling". I would trust this kind of promise from any politician as much as the paper its not written on.
35

noswod,

Honestas 24/10/2008 10:46:37
HBOS is gone to Lloyds theres too much political capital being invested in destorying it. Now Lord Mandy of the Superyacht Cumberland is back in power any hope that the Scottish Financial Mafia had of derailing the Lloyds deal is doon the pan. Mandy wants revenge on Slamond and also wants to show the Jockies who really is in charge. The only hope for HBOS is that the Eastern European, Hungary, Ukraine, and Asian, S Korea Governments meltdowns may spill over to the UK in a similar meltdown and derail the deal - then we will all be bust totally no half bust.
36

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:55:48
67

Sorry who's data?
37

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 10:57:46
63

Would Norway be better or worse of than it is now had it been part of the Union 300 years ago or even 30 years ago?
38

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 11:04:02
59

Nope it applies to calling an incident regarding some knife attacks as ABH instead of GBH and in fact not even mentioning the knife at all.
What this highlights of course is the British establishments common policy of publishing innacurate figures and statistics in order to show them in a better light just as Ugly George pointed out.
The same types of statistics and data you commonly use to back up yer posts and arguments.
39

boudica,

24/10/2008 11:21:11
39 ....I see 36 accusses you of all the things he and the rest of the cybernats do ..
Oh!1 36 is it true Will McLeish does a lot of posting on here too..you think he would have enough to do trying to spin wee eck into something nearly presentable ...he must have realised you cant make a silk purse out of a Pigs Ear ...like the rest of the thinking people who have noted that wee eck is making a Pigs Ear out of everything he promised ...
40

Doh,

24/10/2008 11:34:42


I dont want to pour petrol onthe flames, but ...

Of course Scotland can be "independent" of England.

However what the lesson from Iceland is simply that a small nation cannot underwrite larger banks.

That is the situation we haev in Scotland with a larger than normal banking sector the strain on our Scottish finances to "nationalise" a "multi-national" bank would be severe to prohibitive.

So our banking sector is inherently vulnerable.

Unless of course we share our soveriegnity with either the rest of the Uk or the rest of Europe.
Bt we cant afford to pretend that we can be independent.
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 11:37:14
77

Neither can larger nations without borrowing the money from abroad from eh small nations with large resources??
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 11:39:29
77

So do you think the entire world should sign up to a union governed from the largest nation on the planet in order to keep its banks and financial institutes from having to deal with down turns as well as up turns in the financial markets?
43

subrosa,

24/10/2008 11:43:13
Of course HBOS shares are at rock bottom. Those who started the decline are continuing their attacks albeit on a much smaller scale now.

Someone, somewhere is quite determined that HBOS falls flat and they're certainly not going to lose out either.

Not a conspiracy theory just plain common sense when you look at the big picture.
44

Miss H,

24/10/2008 11:43:46
77 You are contradicting yourself there. You start off by saying that we can be independent and end by saying that we can't.

If the argument is that the Icelandic banking model is a bad idea, yes. But Sweden and Norway both had big banking crises in the 90s and came back and both are now predicted by the IMF not to go into recession whereas the UK is going into recession.

In any case there is going to be a huge backlash from this and I reckon regulation will be tighter in future. So many people have lost money from their pensions and savings public opinion will demand it.

45

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 11:47:45
"#64 The only hope for HBOS is that the Eastern European, Hungary, Ukraine, and Asian, S Korea Governments meltdowns may spill over to the UK"

The problems facing the emerging economies are to do with liquidity not the general health of these economies. Many of these countries are performing well in terms of growth, inflation and so on but have problems with high levels of personal and business debt.

These countries don't have access to the same levels of public sector borrowing as the economies of the the larger well-established nations. While the UK, USA, France etc can issue government bonds and gilts to cover their borrowing and bailouts of the private sector, these countries find that there is no buyer for their gilts and bonds. Therefore any attempt by their governments to bail out private sector debt is doomed to failure because ultimately the governments themselves will default - unless of course they go to the IMF, as they are doing now. Unfortunately we are seeing that the scale of the problem is such that the IMF does not have the wherewithal to finance such an amount - equivalent at least to the entire UK economy according to one estimate.

Although our economy has problems the one thing it does have going for it is that we still have sellable gilts and bonds - in some ways buyers are going for the brand name ahead of quality. That's why I believe that the UK can cope better with this crisis than the emerging economies and won't follow them in to meltdown. Yes- ether may be pressure on the pound but it is nothing compared to that faced by the currencies of the emerging economies where the likes of the Hungarian Florint have lost 20% in value in the past two weeks.
46

Alan B,

24/10/2008 11:53:31
#63 sm753

I think you are missing the point.

If one side in an argument say being a small country will be detrimental and big countries will do better. That side prevails and then 20yrs later looking at what actually has happened comparing small western european countries to the large one, rather than what you thought might happen.

You find the evidence shows small countries have done better.

So of course it matters. We followed the side that were in the wrong side of the argument.

Off course we cannot tell how we would have actually performed independence. Because we could have made as big a mess of independent as we have done in the union. We just might be useless as you imply and are condemned to our own lack of ability have a performing economy.

And off course becuase the evidence shows that small countries have done better than big ones over the past decades that does not mean that this pattern will continue. But i think it is silly to stick our head in the sand and not look at the evidence available.






47

Alan B,

24/10/2008 12:03:09
#Doh

In all seriousness there advantages in the union and disadvantage similar to being independent.

However for those that support independence there are 2 factors.

1)the advantages of independence massively out weigh the disadvantages.

You only have to ask why Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium all have larger gdp per capita ppp than the big 4; uk, germany, france and italy to see the small country model does appear to be better than the big one. A germany which was by far the best of the big one till reunification was the only one that was run on a decetralised model.

2)while the union could have advantages for scotland many of them are not forethcoming as the union simply does not work for scotland

examples:
- the government both tory and labour have refused to really address the north south divides. labour talked a good game in opposition as you will know but has done nothing in power as brown chases his own career rather than giving a s*** about scotlands economy. I simply was astounded that a scottish chancellor could do so little for scotland knowing the problems.
-this north south divide makes sterling bad for the uk economy. Remember eddie george the govenor of BOE saying that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south. I state this not to shoot the messenger but that it demonstrates how uk monetary policy is bad for scotland.
-much of the above could be mitigated by joining the euro. But no it is politically unacceptable in england aswell as economically unwise for the south of england so scotland suffers.
48

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 12:09:31
sm753(35): "I'm not an insider, but from the customer perspective H/BOS are much more integrated than RBS/NatWest."

The customer-facing part certainly is, but both have unified back offices.

"How would you decide what was an H account or loan and what was a BOS one? Postcode? How about asking the clients?"

The natural divide seems to rebrand only in Scotland.

"For example, on pure financial grounds I would be outraged if I was told my deposits were being allocated to some wee spun-off"

It would certainly be sensible to keep the banks unified behind the scenes, just as in RBS.
49

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:10:01
89

Samsung SynchMaster 753".

And coincidently enough AM2 is a processor socket.
Small minds think alike eh?
50

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:10:55
92

B*gger beat me to it.
51

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:12:31
83

And no Doubt the federal state of Scotland would be riding out this financial melt down with apparent ease.
52

brownlie,

24/10/2008 12:13:48
92 Hoots

More sad than funny.

67 sm753

The Labour party - which you don't support - will be delighted to hear that you have proof that Salmond is a "charlatan" and "shyster".
53

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:14:17
94

I wonder how many mortgages will be repossessed in the USA or UK compared to Norway? any government derived statistics to compare?
54

Alan B,

24/10/2008 12:17:22
#Doh

With regard to what would have happened with HBOS if scotland was independent there are few senarios.

1)would scotland have allowed halifax to effectively take over BOS.
2)would the terms of any merger have been the BOS would have taken over halifax.
3)would the banks have remain operationaly separate as part of the HBOS group rather than fully merging. Santandar took over say Abbey but that does not mean it will necessarily trade as Sandadar. will it run alliance and leister as a separate bank.

As such any scottish bailout may have been for BOS only.

4)would the english or rump uk government really want to let the halifax go down and not be coming up with a joint bailout for a uk wide bank.

5)would BOS not have looked for a eu expansion rather than uk expansion if an independent scotland was in the euro. we have this parocial outlook that thinks the world revolves round england.

6)would a scottish oil fund not have owned a significant amount of any bank as it invests in scottish industry and businesses.

7)bankrupt the bank, the bank defaults on the credit market debt. The credit market debt would be restructured and the banks which would trade its way out of problems. As it is the issue of being unable to refincne the banks credit market debt that is the problem.

8)bankrupt the banks and scottish government take it over with shareholders getting nothing. lend them cash on a comercial basis to cover the money they cannot get on the credit markets.




55

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 12:19:25
sm753 (89): "Then I saw in front of me, just below the monitor screen:

"Samsung SynchMaster 753"."

And I was just about to opine: "Obviously it's a reference to the legendary foundation of Rome in 753 BC." . . .
56

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 12:27:08
sm753 (42): ""Dont you mean it would be 100% British? or does that automatically imply that it will be 90% English?"

FF is being a little inaccurate. 84% English."

I don't believe so. You're using the 2001 National Statistics figures here. The estimated NSO populations for 2007 were 60.7 million for the UK, of which almost 55 million were in England: just over 90%. Of course, UK population estimates are not particularly accurate, so anything between 85% and 92% would probably be equally acceptable.
57

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:29:21
94

How about job losses? any Government derived data to show us the comparrison of job lose totals due to this melt down relative to the US the UK and Norway?
58

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:30:58
94

How about financial growth? any government derived data to show us a comparrison of the effects this melt down has on the financial growth of the US UK relative to Norway?
59

Alan B,

24/10/2008 12:31:30
#94 sm753

You are being abit obtuse. I am talking about european countries. Most of which can operate within the EU or have special relationships with the EU.

"A country's economic performance is determined by a huge number of internal, external and structural factors. Reducing it to "small" versus "large" is nonsensical."

It is not nonsensical if that is what the evidence suggests. The fact that Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium all have higher gdp per capita ppp than the bigger ones must tell us something.

Rather than sticking our heads in the sand we must ask why? If we want the uk to exist then learn the lessons. It maybe one of real decentralisation. As i pointed out germany before reunification outperformed the very centralised uk, france and italy.

If there had been an even spread of small and large western european countries economically then your arguement about it being other factors would be more relevent.

I think the problem is unionist want the union. Fair enough. But that should not mean sticking our heads int the sand.

The other issue unionist really have to address is : is it a union at any cost.

"And it's not just about money. I like being Scottish and British, I don't want to have my country destroyed, I don't want to be a foreigner when I visit England."

I have not problem if the unionist argument was yes scotland will have lower living standards and the quality of our jobs will be poorer than others including those in the south and that is a price i am will to pay becuase i want the union. Fair enough. What annoys me more is the fact we are doing not very well economically and we have all this drivel that we would do even worse and should not try to improve our lot.

Personally i do not mind a union with england but i want it both as individual memember of the EU.

I also want any union to work to scotland advantage and not be detrimental t
60

Alan B,

24/10/2008 12:32:08
..detrimental to the country. Remember what we are really talking about. Whether political and economic decisions should be taken in scotland by representatives of the scottish people. Or whether we want to pull decision with other countries, with the obvious issue that these decisions may not be decisions in our interests or with the will of public opinion.
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:32:34
94

You wont be a foreigner when you visit England you silly sausage you will be a foreigner when you visit everywhere else.
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:35:08
94

How about inflation? Do you have any government derived data to show us the relative levels of inflation between the US the UK and Norway affected by this crises?
63

Doh,

24/10/2008 12:43:51
#77 missH

I wasnt trying to contradict myself, really just challenging the nature of "independence" certainly in the world of finance.

#79

Certainly think that Scotland or the UK should play a full part in international agreements, such as Bretton Woods. All international treaties, such as the union, result in a reduction of powers of the "national" government. But it is better for the people.

#80 sm753

Good point, even had Scotland been independent, a rescue package could well have been agreed with our closest neighbours and trading partners. I am not convinced "we" would get a better deal than we would by debate within the union.

# 105 Alan

yes there are many scenarios and it is diffcult to imagine a worse situation than the one that Gordon Brown has actually landed us in.

However, say Scotland being part of the Euro and England not, might be the seed of future financial calamaties.

I guess my main point is that we would not be as independent as we would perhaps like to be.



64

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 12:46:06
#117 sm

It is tiresome nonsense. "Vote for independence because a selected number of 'small' countries have a higher per-capita GDP than the UK, at the moment." - It's an insult to the intelligence of all voters.

People who like to compare Scotland and Luxemburg, but not Scotland and Portugal need to have a look at themsleves, and the point that they are trying to make.

65

Alan B,

24/10/2008 12:47:10
#sm753

"And it's not just about money. I like being Scottish and British, I don't want to have my country destroyed, I don't want to be a foreigner when I visit England. "

For me I want the best for scotland. So if it think a union with england is best so be it. If i think the european union is best so be it. Although in both cases i would any model run on a decentralised basis.

For me the problem is the uk is detrimental to scotland. And many of the benefits of a union like free trade, free movement of people, freedom to work anywhere within that union and a common currency are gained from the EU. The eu to me has made the uk obsolete.

The thing that is striking about you comment. Is if it is a choice between scotland and britain you choose britain. Because at the end of the day that is what it comes down to. Are you willing to have a detrimental union for scotland in order to keep britain together.
66

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:52:56
121

"However, say Scotland being part of the Euro and England not, might be the seed of future financial calamaties"

For who? being part of the euro hasnt caused any national calamities anywhere else in Europe has it?
67

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:54:40
124

What the troll wont do is compare the GDP with the National debt and national expenditure figures of each country.
68

Alan B,

24/10/2008 12:56:07
#117 sm753

The point scotland has done badly economically over the past 30/40yrs.

If scotland had performed well the argument would be irrelevent.

Scotland is outperformed by england we say it is becuase england is bigger. The uk and the other large countries are outperformed by the small countries we get all the excuses.

But lets take your line all the other countries are irrelevent. The fact remains scotland has not performed well. As such the current arrangement have not worked.

You either accept failure or you try to change it.

The idea that we just accept this failed model is in all honest depressing. And i think you know full well england would not accept it if roles were reversed.

Your own admission that you do not want to break up britain and it not all being about money shows that even if scotland was poorer with less decent jobs you would still choose the uk. As such your economic views are shaped by your political.
69

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 12:59:04
122

who compares Scotland to Luxemburg or Portugal?
The nearest comparrison to Scotland internationally is Norway which is why all the unionist trolls stay clear of it.
Neither Luxemburg Portugal nor Iceland has oil and gas assets.
70

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:04:26
#suchaparcelofrogues

I would compare Scotland to Luxemburg. If scotland was as wealth as Luxemburg i would be far happier. We would not have the same levels of poverty, ill health party due to that poverty. And out graduates would not have to leave the country to get a decent job.

Protugual, Greece and Eastern european countries are irrelevent as there is simply no value in comparing yourself to the poorest in europe. Scotland should be rich country so we should compare ourselves against the rest of north/western european.

It is abit like saying aye we are richer than africa so we should stay in the union.
71

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:08:14
#91 Alan - there is one major economic disdavantage of independence, one that you have touched on before and both myself and Doh have mentioned today.

Whether we like it or not the fact is that larger nations, with well-established stock exchanges, have greater access to financing their public sector borrowing than the emerging nations or those without well-established stock exchanges.

That raises a major issue for a post-independence Scotland. If the SNP are not going to have either a Scottish central bank or independent Scottish currency then how do they propose to finance public sector borrowing, particularly of the kind needed to finance the current bailouts?
72

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:10:17
#The Tin Man

"It is tiresome nonsense. "Vote for independence because a selected number of 'small' countries have a higher per-capita GDP than the UK, at the moment." - It's an insult to the intelligence of all voters."

While you might it tiresome. I find it tiresome the lies put out by the unionist parties that scotland would have been such an economic disaster if we were independent.

I find it tiresome that labour are still banging that drum. Saying we would do worse independent after we have done badly relatively to the other countries.

If the unionist parties say small countries will do badly and scotland needs to remain in the union for that reason. Are nats really meant to not point out how that was completely wrong.

Oh it tiresome pointing out that unionist parties either lied or were completely wrong.

If brown was to turn round and admit scotland has performed badly in the union over the last 30yrs and apologise for inflicting this union on us then us tiresome people so p***** at being told alot of rubbish would stop.
73

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:10:30
130

Yet Scotland has nothing in common with Luxemburg any more than it has with Portugal or even Iceland.
Luxumburg is land locked for a start.
74

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:13:25
#130 Comparing Scotland to any country is problematic at best - you are never really comparing like with like.

The Norway comparison is dubious at best - yes they have oil, but they also pay higher taxes and have higher public expenditure than we do.
75

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:16:50
133

How many nations in the world started their Independence with well established stock exchanges?
and who says larger nations have "greater access" to financing their public sector borrowing????????
"greater access" is determined by the method of public sector borrowing not on the size of a countries population.

And Scotland owns at least 8% of the Bank of England.
Why wouldnt an Independent Scotland have its own currency even if it means adopting the Euro?
76

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:18:21
137

So why arent you posting a case for the UK to become the 51st state of the US???
77

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:19:16
#The Federalist

As you know i would join the euro and do what the other countries do that work within the euro.

I agree that bailing out a big company like RBS is much more difficult for a small country. However i think the advantages far out weigh the disadvantages.

Your model where the uk is very decentralised i think is a very good option. As it addresses the fact that smaller countries or devolved power works far better.

Part of my problem with the union is the centralised model. A union where the parties fight decentralisation and do not try to address the problems of the component countries and regions.

I would not be against having the model you talk about and trying it. However i cannot really see the advantages of that over indepedence and having a union with england via the eu. A model that starts with fiscal autonomy and allows scotlnad to adopt the euro while within the uk.

But the current straight jacket does not work. And labour and the tories have hardly admitted it and then tried to reform the uk along decentralist lines. Neither have either addressed north south divides. As the politics of the uk means only middle england matters to winning elections.
78

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 13:21:57
#134 AlanB

I would agree - but that's politics.

Comparing Scotland with Luxemburg is codswallop, though. Better to compare Edinburgh with Luxembourg, if you like comparisons. Why mention Netherlands, but not Portugal?... and comparing Scotland with Iceland stretches the boundries of credulity to the extreme.

I just find it a load of drivel, really. If you want to say that smaller groups of people are able to make more focused decisions, please go ahead.
79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:22:38
140

We can compare Scotlands financial situation over the last 30 years at least with Norways and make a very sound judgement of Scotlands financial state within the UK relative to an Independent scenario.
What have you got to prove that Scotland has fared better within the union?
80

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:22:55
#138 Scotland would not have an independent Scottish currency or Scottish bank. A post-independent Scotland would use sterling until such time it was ready to enter the Euro. What mechanism would a post-independent Scotland use to finance a bailout if it does not have a currency or a central bank?

I would love to know because I have yet to hear or read a reasoned response explaining how this could be done.

As far larger countries having better access to public borrowing - it's a fact - that's why so many emerging economies had to run to the IMF in 1997.
81

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:25:30
#141 "But the current straight jacket does not work."

Having no central bank is a also a straitjacket - I can't see how that would work either.
82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:25:31
136

What they dont have is more methods of taxation imposed on them than we do.
What I dont understand by your point is if comparrison cant be made then what is the case for Scotland within the union? how can any unionist claim Scotland would be better off within the union without a comparrison?
83

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:26:29
"#145 The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),24/10/2008 13:22:55

#138 Scotland would not have an independent Scottish currency or Scottish bank."

Should have read:

"Scotland would not have an independent Scottish currency or Scottish CENTRAL bank."
84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:27:48
148

Why not?
85

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:28:49
#140 sm753

""The point scotland has done badly economically over the past 30/40yrs."

Compared to what? We're back in your imaginary alt history again. You have no way of knowing that an "independent" Scotland would not have performed even worse."

Compared to the rest of the uk for a start who have grown at 2.8% to our poorer 2.2%. Compared to the group of northern eurpean countries that have grown by 3.6%.

Come on you are more intelliegent than that. Decent economic growth would be about 2.5%. Good around 3%. Scotland has had growth lower that 2% over the last 30yrs. That is bad. I regard anything under 2% as bad.

Scotland has done slightly better over the past decade 2.2% but that was in a good global climate and not as good as the uk or the small north western european countries.

Think about it seriously Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium all have gdp per capita ppp that all 4 big european countries uk, italy, france and germany.

There really is no point and sticking your head in the sand.

Questions:
1)do you think scotland has done well economically over the past 30yrs.
2)do you think less that 2% growth over the last 30yrs is good?
3)do u seriously think any uk government will do anything about our poor economic performance. (if the government with power do not give a s***, then u find yourself in the current predicament).
86

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:35:49
#143 The Tin Man

I do not think comparing to one individual country is too helpful. I think we have to look at the overall pattern.

But comparing ourselves to other countries it is only a guide to see how well we are performing and have performed.

The big question is why has scotland done poorly economically and how can we transform it. Can it be done in the uk or do we need the tools of independence.

As i see it the tools of economic management largely remain at westminster and neither the tories or labour are interested in dealing wiht the north south divide. As such if you give away power and they continually do not address your problems we should take back that power and implement some solutions. And if they do not work implment others.
87

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:42:22
#147 Your comparison (and the one the electorate makes) is the before and after scenarios for Scotland.

I think you make the mistake of assuming that I oppose independence on economic grounnds - I don't. I genuinely believ that a post-independence Scotland would have a thriving economy IF the correct economic policies were in place. As it stands I don't believe that the SNP's are the right economic polices (not any other politcial party's for that matter).

If we are going to have a succesful post-independence Scottish economy some serious policy decisions need to be need now - not swept under the carpet until after independence. Unlike myself, most of the electorate are sceptics or agnsotics when it comes to the independence issue and are very much influeneced by the economics of the issue. By ignoring the economic fundamentals the SNP undermines their own case.
88

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 13:43:16
#151 Little Hoose

Lerwick doesn't have the same level of social problems as Glasgow. What's your point?

Have you actually compared US crime statistics with Ireland?

And please explain the link between the size of a country and the size of it's population's waist-lines?
89

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:44:21
#149 Because it is the SNP policy.

The SNP did at one time support having an independent Scottish currency and a Scottish central bank - and I would have supported that.

But it it is not their policy now - and, particularly the central bank issue, undermines their case.
90

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 13:44:51
#154 Fedralist

Agreed.

100%.
91

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:45:50
#143 The Tin Man

My real argument is not really about small over large. I just think that comparing ourselves to the small and large countries of north/western europe allows us to determine how well or badly we are performing economically.

I do think it is interesting though to ask why the small ones have done better. Not really sure why that is. I think if scotland looked at that and tried to understand it then these principles could possibly be applied within the uk. Problably would mean real decentralisation of power.

I think one of the fundamental problems with the uk is if the south of england are doing well then the bbc and london media reports that the uk is doing well despite problems in the north. The government congratulate themselves on good economic media headlines and nothing is done to address the economic problems.

Take a couple of examples:
- when labour got elected in the late 90s there was a recession in scotland however the bbc kept reporting that we were booming. why becuase the english figures showed the uk was booming as england is so much bigger than scotland.

This meant that people in scotland actually thought the economy was performing well. And would tell you they would vote for labour becuase they were doing well for the economy.

- another example. in the early 90s the tories had a recession in the south of england. they never recovered and were voted out. however the same tories have much worse economic problems in the north during the 80s with a much bigger recession and much more unemployment and general economic difficulties and the loads a money south kept voting the tories in.

There is a lesson to be learned for that.
92

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 13:47:24
I see that HBOS has set a new low of 58.5p per share today, although its price at 13:50 is 65.8p. Lloyds is 162.20. Given that discrepancy, I cannot see Lloyds proceeding with the deal in its present form.

See

http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/performance.asp?s=HBOS%3ALSE&vsc_appId=ts&ftsite=FTCOM&searchtype=equity&searchOption=equity
93

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:48:32
156

Who says its not? its always there as an option how can it not be? the SNP may have other preferences but at the end of the day they will have to go with the best option at the time like the UK deciding when its going to join the euro. If a national Scottish bank is required within an Indepedent Scotland then a national bank will be formed as they have been in other nations.
Why do you phuqing trolls always try and argue that Scotland situation is different to any other nations in the world?
94

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:51:14
154

Yet you wont go into any detail to explain why you dont beleive the SNP policies are the wrong ones.
You only state it as an opinion. Now show us where the SNP is going wrong or back down.
95

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:52:15
154

By ignoring the economic fundamentals the SNP undermines their own case.

What economic fundamentals are they ignoring?
96

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:52:33
#154 The Federalist

I think it is difficult and i do not necessarily disagree with you.

Take the euro. The snp want to join. However there policy is to have a referendum on it. Is that the wrong policy. Can they realistically say they will join the euro without a referendum. It does seem the only realistic policy.

I think their are 2 points. The destination and the transition.

I think the destination of indepdendence with the eu is correct.

The question is how best to manage that transition.

Personally i would like fiscal autonomy first so that is all settled. I would like scotland to be able to join the euro while within the uk but that is not going to happen.

"As it stands I don't believe that the SNP's are the right economic polices (not any other politcial party's for that matter)."

I think the only way we will find the right economic policies for scotland is by trial and error. It will also be up to the people to decide. I would go for the low tax route but many others would not. That at the end of the day is democracy.




97

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 13:52:59
#160 You still have not answered my question - how do you raise the finances for a bailout of this kind without a central bank?

Is it because that you don't actually have clue?
98

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 13:53:35
suchap (160): "Why do you phuqing trolls always try and argue that Scotland situation is different to any other nations in the world?"

In this case, it's the SNP arguing that the Scottish situation is unusual: their consistent policy seems to be that Scotland will not use its own currency, and create its own central bank, on achieving independence. The sensible SNP policy would be to simply state that Scotland would create a new Scottish central bank and resurrect the Pound Scots on independence.
99

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:56:11
#suchaparcelofrogues

I think the Fed believes that the current snp policy to remain with sterling after independence is unsustainable. ie it is political and not an economic decision.

He believes that an independent scotland should immediately set up a central bank and float a scottish currency.

Personally i think that we should go straight from sterling to the euro. And setup the same mechanisms as everyone else to make the euro workable by issuing bonds etc.

100

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 13:57:10
163

The whole phuqing idiotic argument is irrelevant no nation on the planet has gained its independence and gone under because it chose the wrong currency. Some nations made their brand new currencies stonger than others. Whichever option Scotland goes with it will have the wherewithall and foundation to make it work.
How could it not it will be starting off at a higher level of infrastructure than most nations had when they started out on their own.
101

Alan B,

24/10/2008 13:58:57
#Fairfax

What would be the advantage of using an interium scottish pound and not just going straight to the euro?
102

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:00:00
164

Do what every other nation does borrow the phuquing cash. AS is already in the process of negotiating a loan with Qatar without a central bank.
And like I told you above Scotland owns at least 8% of the Bank of England that would be enough to secure any necessary finances.
103

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:01:06
168

Wouldnt it depend on the international currency markets at the time? isnt currency all about timing?
104

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:02:13
166

That may be the position today but what about in 2010? or 2015 or 2020?
105

Alan B,

24/10/2008 14:02:18
#suchaparcelofrogues

I do think it is important as we move to independence that the transition is done well and successfully.

What currency we use and how we transition are important.

Independence is about giving us the tools to make a difference to scotland. But it will only be successful if we use these tools well.
106

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:03:39
167

Where is the UK going to find the 37 billion?
107

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:04:44
173

Thats stating the obvious but you wont know which tools to use until the job reveals itself.
108

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 14:06:09
#163 The Euro policy, like many other parties' is a complete fudge. Party's do that - no problem BUT they also don't seem to have much clarity about what would happen in the interim period before Euro entry when Scotland uses sterling.

I'd prefer having an independent Scottish currency if there were independence but I also recognise that the sterling route is one option. However, even this route requires a Scottish central bank. To not have one is madness in my opinion.

Yet, even if we did have a central bank there could still be problems, just as we are seeing with other emerging economies that are successful but facing high persoanl and business debt problems. Would gilts and bonds issued by a Scottish central bank be attractive to investors or would they be left unbought as with the emerging economies? Is there anything that could be done to make gilts and bonds issued by a Scottish central bank more attractive?
109

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:08:00
165

So what? the option isnt going to disappear because the SNP say they wont use it. If the option is required then its there and available if the SNP have a better option then I dont understand what the problem is?
110

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:09:22
178

I get the impression that it isnt hard to amaze you at all. And what does your inside knowledge tell you?
111

TWC,

Ayrshire 24/10/2008 14:10:16
Just heard the Lesley Riddoch debate from BBC all parties.
SNP guy got a doing on Council matters from Minority groups.
Labour got a bit of a the same on local stuff but were non existent on Policies for Scotland from Westminster.
The poor Tory guy said Thatcher's actions were in the past and got slaughtered.
Libdems were ok but the Pensioner guy won hands down.
I think the audience was anot really representative of the seat but still interesting.
112

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:10:57
178

So rather than address any of the other issues I have brought up you sat and waited for one in which you found the best chance to troll with?
Strange behaviour for a run of the mill non politically affiliated Scottish voter.
113

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 14:13:40
"#168 Alan B,24/10/2008 13:58:57
#Fairfax

What would be the advantage of using an interium scottish pound and not just going straight to the euro?"

Either route would be preferable to the current SNP position. But given the conditions of Euro entry and the likelyhood that Scotland (nor the UK) is likely to meet them for some time then an independent Scottish currency would be a sensible interim solution.

Obviously, a decision would have to be made on which currency to track the Scotish currency to. Would we track the pound because it was the currency of our nearest neighbour and biggest trading partner? Or would we try to converge towards the Euro rate and track that?
114

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:14:53
182

No it is recognised as a "union" of nations or more accurately Kingdoms because it has not only formed an act of parliamentary union but also an act of monarchy union.
Your passport is a result of the union of monarchys not the union of parliaments.
115

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 24/10/2008 14:15:47
184 I thought you were the master of the universe in knowledge after you display of marine naval technologies trident ring a bell and knowledge of the international maritime law.
116

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:16:30
suchap (169): "Do what every other nation does borrow the phuquing cash."

The normal way for a nation to borrow money is to issue bonds, via a central bank.

"And like I told you above Scotland owns at least 8% of the Bank of England that would be enough to secure any necessary finances."

It's not clear to me that Scotland would own 8% of the Bank of England on independence -- would you argue that England owns some 90% of Scottish oil? In any case, you should assume that the Bank would be available to Scotland on independence. Nor is it clear that this would be a useful thing to own for Scotland -- the Bank's reserves do not secure its necessary funding. Instead, the Bank conducts bond auctions on behalf of (currently) the UK government.
117

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:17:14
189: "In any case, you should assume that the Bank would be available to Scotland on independence."

should read

"In any case, you should assume that the Bank would not be available to Scotland on independence."
118

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:17:18
185

You cant keep up with rational debate you keep incriminating yer old lies with yer new lies.
But as long as it keeps you amused.
119

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 14:18:28
"#189 Fairfax,24/10/2008 14:16:30
suchap (169): "Do what every other nation does borrow the phuquing cash."

The normal way for a nation to borrow money is to issue bonds, via a central bank."

But, as the emerging nations are finding out, you might have no buyers for said bonds.
120

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:18:42
189

"The normal way for a nation to borrow money is to issue bonds, via a central bank."

Really? the "normal" way or is it simply "one" way?
121

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:20:59
Alan B (168): "What would be the advantage of using an interium scottish pound and not just going straight to the euro?"

It would depend on the exchange rate at the time of independence. It might be advantageous for Scotland to join at a different rate to Sterling, for example. Further, it is not clear to me that an immediate Euro-join would be possible, although EU/ECB regulations are certainly not my expertise. More fundamentally, issuing one's own currency is an important part of nationhood. In my view, this would be good for Scotland even if it is followed by rapid transition to the Euro.
122

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:22:04
189

"It's not clear to me that Scotland would own 8% of the Bank of England on independence -- would you argue that England owns some 90% of Scottish oil?"

Come on that is simply idiotic. According to most reliable sources out of the 100% UK oil and gas assets Scotland owns about 95% due to international maritime law so out of the 100% UK national bank of England Scotland has to own at least its proportional share of this UK asset.
If there is an International banking law that states the Bank of England belongs to England because its based in London then you have a case.
123

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:24:23
189 192

"The normal way for a nation to borrow money is to issue bonds, via a central bank."

Now that is interesting to see that statement appear word for word so close together.

Careful troll yer slips showing.

192 see 193.
124

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:25:38
suchap (193): ""The normal way for a nation to borrow money is to issue bonds, via a central bank."

Really? the "normal" way or is it simply "one" way?"

I stated that it is the normal way, not the only way: to my knowledge, all developed nations borrow money via bond auctions, and this is their primary method of obtaining loans -- it would be highly eccentric for a developed nation of 5 million people to not follow this model. It is certainly possible for a nation to survive without a central bank raising funds via bonds: alternatives would be public subscription, lotteries, or selling equity in North Sea Oil. To give one historical example, Scotland raised funds for the Darien Expedition via public subscription.
125

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:26:39
198

You have changed your tune on this simply because you realise your position of the other day was untenable and foolish

Its his trademark.
126

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 14:26:46
#195 I take it you would want 8% of the National Debt (including pension contributions) as well then?


As of August 2008 that would work out as:

8% x £637.4 billion = £50.99 billion

Throw in the bailout borrowing and you would not have much change out of £100 billion.

127

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:27:20
suchap (196): ""The normal way for a nation to borrow money is to issue bonds, via a central bank."

Now that is interesting to see that statement appear word for word so close together."

It's less interesting once you notice that the statement is quoting my post, as did you.
128

Doh,

24/10/2008 14:28:19
#125.
Are you serious?
The problem could arise for Scotland.
No other European nation is as closely interwined with the English.

Where do you think Scottish savings and funds are currently invested?
Let me give you a clue, are You Okay?

129

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:30:40
suchap (195): "Come on that is simply idiotic. According to most reliable sources out of the 100% UK oil and gas assets Scotland owns about 95% due to international maritime law"

Scotland currently owns nothing in the North Sea: the UK is the current owner of the oil fields. Perhaps they should also be divided via population, as you seem to believe is obvious for the Bank of England.
130

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:30:48
199

You didnt read what I posted properly I asked

Really? the "normal" way or is it simply "ONE" way?"

not the "ONLY" way.

Raising bonds is not the "norm" nor is it the preferred way it is simply just another option.
131

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:32:24
206

The UK owns it simply because it is a Scottish asset. If it wasnt a Scottish asset the UK wouldnt be able to lay claim to it at all would it? In the same way the treasury takes the revenue from sales of Scottish whiskey.
132

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:34:14
206

Natural resources come under seperate international legislation. Its apples and oranges and you cant compare so youre flogging a dead horse on that one Im afraid.
133

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 14:35:43
Keep digging spanners.
134

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:36:39
201

Why not you can take it out of the last 300 years of Scottish GDP contributions to the UK treasury and give us the change back.
135

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 14:37:46
#212 Have you got the GERS for the last 300 years?
136

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:38:39
Federalist (186): "But given the conditions of Euro entry and the likelyhood that Scotland (nor the UK) is likely to meet them for some time then an independent Scottish currency would be a sensible interim solution."

I don't think the criteria are much to worry about: at this rate, the primary EU economies will soon be failing Euro requirements.

"Obviously, a decision would have to be made on which currency to track the Scotish currency to. Would we track the pound because it was the currency of our nearest neighbour and biggest trading partner? Or would we try to converge towards the Euro rate and track that?"

In my view, if Scotland is to continue to support an international banking industry, then it's essential for it to move to the Euro as soon as possible. I think it's highly unlikely that the Bank of England would provide a Sterling Zone post-independence: the most common view I hear from colleagues at the Bank is that this would be more trouble than it was worth. Hence there's little alternative other than the Euro.
137

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 24/10/2008 14:39:13
206 Ask sm753 He gave his ruiling that the 1999 waters boundaries order meant that the shelf act and order of 1968 was negated. Or is it?? Hmm I wonder?
138

TWC,

Ayrshire 24/10/2008 14:41:52
211 The Federalist,

I'm surprised at you using the term spanners.

139

Alan B,

24/10/2008 14:44:38
#171 sm753

Sorry it took me a while.

"Scotland’s economy tumbled into recession in the first three months of the year when output slumped 0.7 per cent. This marked the second quarter in succession in which output had fallen. "

The period i believe was last quarter of 2001 and first quarter of 2002.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/business/Scotlands-goslow-economy.2366168.jp

The recession in the late 90s was i think a manufacturing one.


140

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 24/10/2008 14:47:06
GDP down 0.5% not good news!
141

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 14:47:17
199
suchap (206):"Raising bonds is not the "norm" nor is it the preferred way it is simply just another option."

Please try to understand: all developed nations currently conduct almost all of their borrowing via bond auctions. There's no requirement that this should be so, but it has become the norm since the 18th century for a reason: it works well. You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_bond
142

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 14:48:02
Maybe an independent Scotland can borrow money from HBOS?
;-)
143

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:48:06
213

Not me I am just an ordinary concerned Scottish voting member of the public how about you?
144

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:48:39
211

Dinae gie yer mind a treat.
145

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:49:35
218

Tells its own story doesnt it?
146

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:54:16
197

Being in a state and being a state is not the same thing.
The UK is a product of two treaties the act of union of parliaments and the act of union of crowns.
Your passport comes from the act of union of crowns hence the UNITED KINGDOMS of Greater Britain bit.
So no it is not a country in its own right but a union of countries.
147

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 14:56:41
221

So when US went to China recently for a loan they sold them some bonds is that right?
148

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 14:59:29
#221 Fairfax

How would the Scot Futures Trust issue and sell bonds, out of interest?
149

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 15:06:11
"218 TWC,Ayrshire 24/10/2008 14:41:52
211 The Federalist,

I'm surprised at you using the term spanners."

Because that is one of his other monikers - don't you recognise his writing "style"?

I don't mind debate and discussion but suchaparcel just resorts to abuse when he's losing the argument or can't answer a simple question - he is wearing to say the least.
150

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 15:09:28
#229 Federalist

Watch what you say, now. Spanners might be saving your comments on his hard drive for uses best known to himself.....
151

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

24/10/2008 15:12:42
#230 A sort of nationalist AM2?
152

The Tin Man,

24/10/2008 15:23:31
#231 Fed

Now, now - that would be like comparing the USA with Luxembourg.
153

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 15:26:02
230 231

What is the medical term for that multi personality disorder? Its like watching scenes from Lord of the rings where Gollum has these bizarre conversations with himself.
154

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 15:27:45
232

I would classify AM2 more along the lines of Haiti than the Luxembourg.
155

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 15:30:56
221

Is Gordon Brown going to raise the 37 billion to bail out the banks by selling bonds?
How about the money for bailing out Northern Rock and the Bradford and Bingley?
Thats going to be a hell of a lot of bonds? what is their surety the Bank of England?
156

TWC,

Ayrshire 24/10/2008 15:58:48
Come on gents this is't helping the debate.

HBos will now come out n the wash, I hope there will be an enquiry into the whole thing, then we'll know who did what to whom.
I wish it could be saved but let us see..... I still don't feel goood abou Mandy being involved and keeping it a secret.
Time to go .. kids are home
157

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:19:54
203

"No other European nation is as closely interwined with the English."

Only within the Union not outside of the union.

"Where do you think Scottish savings and funds are currently invested?
Let me give you a clue, are You Okay?"

WTF are you havering about?????? people and businesses put their savings where they can get the best returns and they will do so whether Scotland is in or out of a political union and it wont affect the national currency nor choice of national currencies.


158

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:21:21
237

I am denying your claims that it is a nation state or country.
159

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:25:02
237

Is the EU a state or country?
160

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:26:02
237

How about the old Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?
161

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:26:31
273

Didnt the old USSR have its own passport?
162

Alan B,

24/10/2008 16:27:17
#239 sm753

You had me googling for a while as i was posting from memory before i came across the scotsman link.

Could only find some vague mentions to a manufacturing recession in 98 before that.

You had me worried i had dreamt the whole thing :))
163

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:31:27
suchap (227): "So when US went to China recently for a loan they sold them some bonds is that right?"

That's correct, if you're referring to the financing of the US Paulson bail-out. A bond is simply a fixed-term loan for a fixed amount paying a fixed amount of interest. It can then, itself, be traded.
164

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:37:01
The Tin Man (228): "How would the Scot Futures Trust issue and sell bonds, out of interest?"

It certainly plans to raise some funds via selling bonds:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/12/19093017/11


However, the full details of the SFT are not clear to me. It looks suspiciously like PFI in a slightly different packaging.
I should add that bonds are certainly not limited to nations: most large corporations raise funds via bond auctions.
165

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:39:03
245

That's correct, if you're referring to the financing of the US Paulson bail-out. A bond is simply a fixed-term loan for a fixed amount paying a fixed amount of interest. It can then, itself, be traded.

You are unbelievable. Are you claiming that Chinas recent loan to the US was based on US national bonds guaranteed by the Bank of America?
166

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:43:39
Fairfax

Basically what you are claiming is an independent country can only aquire a national debt if it has a central national bank and is able to sell bonds.
167

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:44:53
suchap (237): "Is Gordon Brown going to raise the 37 billion to bail out the banks by selling bonds?"

This will presumably be funded both by bond auctions and taxation. It's roughly equal to the UK defence budget, or 30% of the annual cost of the NHS -- or three times the UK incapacity benefit cost -- so it would be a substantial increase in publice expenditure if not paid partly through bonds.

"How about the money for bailing out Northern Rock and the Bradford and Bingley?"

Again, it will be a mixture of bond auctions and tax.

"Thats going to be a hell of a lot of bonds?"

That's correct. If it becomes necessary to refinance the HBOS £100 billion, then it will be even more.

"what is their surety the Bank of England?"

The British state itself is their surety. All government bonds are ultimately a bet on the reliability of the nation state issuing them.
168

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:46:15
Fairfax

How many different ways can an independent country get itself into national debt?
169

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:48:17
250

"This will presumably be funded both by bond auctions and taxation"

Or presumably not? I mean if the UK didnt have a central bank and couldnt raise bonds then it would presumably find another method of raising the cash to bail them out no?
170

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:48:25
suchap (247): "You are unbelievable. Are you claiming that Chinas recent loan to the US was based on US national bonds guaranteed by the Bank of America?"

Essentially, yes. In the US, the bonds are issued by the US Treasury, which works with the Federal Reserve (their equivalent of the Bank of England). The Chief Secretary of the Treasury is Paulson, whilst the Federal Reserve is headed by Bernanke -- you may recall seeing these names in the news recently.
171

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:50:20
253

What do you mean essentially?
172

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:52:09
suchap (248): "Basically what you are claiming is an independent country can only aquire a national debt if it has a central national bank and is able to sell bonds."

It's not the only way to do it, as I pointed out above, but it is the method followed by all developed nations, beginning in the 18th century. The precise details vary somewhat, but the common point is a government department, analogous to the UK Treasury, and a central bank, analogous to the Bank of England, which work together to manage bond auctions.
173

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:53:43
253

Nobody is asking how bonds are raised and issued what is being asked is did the US government raise bonds guaranteed by the Bank of America in order to secure a loan of cash from China?
174

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:54:02
suchap (253): "What do you mean essentially?"

The details of your suggestion (bonds issued by the Bank of America -- this is a trading bank in the US) are incorrect, but the basic idea is correct: hence the term essentially.
175

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:56:02
255

There you go again "but it is the method followed by all developed nations,"

It is not "THE METHOD" it is "A METHOD". and I dont believe its even "A PREFERED METHOD" either.
176

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 16:57:03
257

So in fact no bonds were issued to China by the US in order to secure a loan of money?
177

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 16:58:14
suchap (256): "Nobody is asking how bonds are raised and issued what is being asked is did the US government raise bonds guaranteed by the Bank of America in order to secure a loan of cash from China?"

The Bank of America is a trading bank in the US: it's NOT the US central bank. The US Treasury and the Federal Reserve are currently selling US government bonds, in large part to fund their bail-out, and other expenditure, and a bond is simply a fixed-term loan to the US government. Some of the bonds, but by no means all, will be bought by China.
178

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:01:04
suchap (259): "So in fact no bonds were issued to China by the US in order to secure a loan of money?"

The US has indeed sold bonds to raise cash and presumably some of those bonds have been bought by China.
179

dude,

wishaw 24/10/2008 17:01:19
sm573 or AM2 = scotlands shame

Most countrys in the world have there own banks, bank of England to name the obvious, it is entirely right that we fight to keep hbos running independantly for the future of Scotland, for you to spout your sectarian bile onto the Bank of Scotland shame on you, shame on you that you cant think outside the box of your bogotry and see that it would be for the benefit of Scotland to have her own bank in business, also the people who ran it to the ground should be charged with negligence, but that certainly does not excuse your bigoted bile on, for what to you is a foriegn country, your irish right so you are so embarassed about calling yourself irish you call yourself 'british' its the same with the unionist scots who call themselves 'british' shame on all of you who want to see your home country down, shame on you all
180

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:01:50
260

So the relationship between the money gives to the US and the bonds raised by the US treasury is coincidental. In fact China would lend the cash to the US whether they raised these bonds or not wouldnt they?
181

suchaparcelofrogues,

24/10/2008 17:02:27
264

That should read so the relationship between the money China gives to the US.
182

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:03:28
suchap (251): "How many different ways can an independent country get itself into national debt?"

There are many ways. Nations have raised money by lotteries and by selling shares in national assets (France tried both -- google Scottish economist John Law if you wish to learn more). Public and private subscription have also been used (e.g. the funding of Darien by Scotland).
183

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:03:49
262

No I have stated already the UK is a union of nation states.
184

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:05:57
266

Exactly so to say that and Independent Scotland couldnt have raised the money to bail out its financial institutes by borrowing because it wouldnt have a central national bank able to raise bonds is in fact a false statement?
185

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:07:57
suchap (264): "So the relationship between the money gives to the US and the bonds raised by the US treasury is coincidental. In fact China would lend the cash to the US whether they raised these bonds or not wouldnt they?"

No: you have fundamentally misunderstood. A bond IS a loan. To give an example, the US Treasury might issue a bond for $100, for 5 years, paying 3% per year. This means that the bond's buyer gives $100 to the US Treasury, in return for which they receive $3 every year for 5 years. At the end of the 5 years, they get their $100 back. The bond can, however, be traded: the bondholder can sell the bond next year, say, to raise cash themselves. Thus bonds are traded IOUs, issued by governments and corporations.
186

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:11:42
270

So what? like I said nobody is asking or questioning how the bond system works the question is, is it the only or even preferred way of borrowing money at a national level? you already agree that it isnt the only method therefore there is no argument Scotland doesnt require a central national bank to raise bonds in order to borrow money or raise cash end of argument.
187

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:15:05
270

And whether or not China buys American bonds doesnt mean they they havent given them loans by other means does it?
188

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:16:17
Col. Blimp (248): "These bonds do they equate to something that has a pisical value ie deedes to real estate, a sack of gold/potatoes or something...or are they just fancy IOU's?"

They're just fancy IOUs. I've given a fuller example in post 270.
189

TWC,

Ayrshire 24/10/2008 17:21:18
Do you guys know about this petition?
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/HBOSShortSelling/

It is only short selling but you could raise another
190

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:22:06
262

The USSR was obviously neither a country nor a state but a political union of nation states as well the only difference is the Russians preferred to use military force to bribery.

The USA of course can be classified as a nation state as it is not made up of a union of nation states or countries but regional states formed within a union of regional states not a union of nation states.

Its like educating a 4 year old.
191

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:23:18
suchap (270): "you already agree that it isnt the only method therefore there is no argument Scotland doesnt require a central national bank to raise bonds in order to borrow money or raise cash end of argument."

That's correct. Scotland can, if it wishes, follow a different path to other developed nations since the 18th century and avoid central banks and bond auctions.
192

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:24:11
275

I have never claimed that NI was a nation state it is in fact a political province.

As I stated above the USA is a nation state I thought everybody knew that???
193

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 17:25:07
281

As can anybody else "presumably"?
194

dude,

wishaw 24/10/2008 17:25:23
AM2 Scotland is a country

Wales is a country

England is a country and a fallen empire

Ireland is a divided country

being british is about staying in the british isles thats it im afraid, there is nothing else, no britishness or any of that rubbish, we are all scots, english, welsh and irish, to deny that fact is to deny your own existence and the existence of your country, what kind of person would deny that apart from someone who is embarrased about their nationality, you cannot comment on the scots because you are irish you have enough problems of your own, including your own peculiar brand of embarassment
195

suchaparcelofrogues,

24/10/2008 17:27:29
*Please enter your comment*
196

Nikostratos,

24/10/2008 17:28:40
Mr Munn, who is to speak today at a workshop hosted by the University of Glasgow's Centre for Business History, told The Scotsman that it was crucial to the Scottish economy for the bank to retain head offices here. He said: "As an old Scottish banker,

An old scottish Banker yes well there is a lot them in the snp.....

#271

I have heard you before.......

The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this; but all he said was, `Why is a raven like a writing-desk?'

`Come, we shall have some fun now!' thought Alice. `I'm glad they've begun asking riddles.--I believe I can guess that,' she added aloud.

`Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?' said the March Hare.

`Exactly so,' said Alice.

`Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.

`I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'

`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'
197

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:30:19
suchap (273): "And whether or not China buys American bonds doesnt mean they they havent given them loans by other means does it?"

If they have, then it would be remarkable. To my knowledge all US government debt has been in the form of bonds of various types since the inception of the S. You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
198

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:31:11
289: "To my knowledge all US government debt has been in the form of bonds of various types since the inception of the S."

should have read

"To my knowledge all US government debt has been in the form of bonds of various types since the inception of the US."
199

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 17:39:48
Col Blimp (276): "I thought this financial mess the banks are in was mostly down to them buying tradeable bonds of US origin, that turned out to be worthless...the Chinese must be mad."

Those aren't US Treasury bonds, fortunately. The financial instruments at the root of the sub-prime mess are typically "collateralized debt debt obligations", or CDOs. A mortgage provider lends lots of money so that many borrowers can buy property, after which it bundles their mortgages together into lots of IOUs, the borrowers' houses being the collateral. The problem arose because these were being traded as if they were as low-risk as government bonds. As we have seen, that was not the case: the borrowers and the properties were of dubious value.
200

Alan B,

24/10/2008 17:45:45
#suchaparcelofrogues

The snp do would want to issue bonds.

The argument with the treasury at the moment is that labour will not let the scottish government issue bonds and borrow at the moment.
201

Alan B,

24/10/2008 17:50:55
#294
"Are government bonds backed with anything other than the promise of the issuer?"

It is just the issuer which being the national
government means they are low risk.

Off course buying government bonds from a bannana republic would be higher risk.
202

Nikostratos,

24/10/2008 18:01:18
#295
"a forced convenience"


Yeah right!

http://kaypoh.com/pixelpost/images/20060102065424_toilet12.jpg
203

Nikostratos,

24/10/2008 18:09:33
#330 "Hoots" Fandango,

my drug of choice

http://www.donotgiveup.net/coffee%20addiction.jpg
204

Nikostratos,

24/10/2008 18:12:19
#301 "Hoots" Fandango,

Just got back from the rep Dom where I drunk licor 43 and pooed me pants.......

off to the gym......see u later
205

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 18:18:13
Col. Blimp (294): "Yes but the dodgy CDO's were actually backed by something and although we are being led to believe that they are worthless, they must have some residual value"

That's correct. The problem is (i) the market has been contaminated by dodgy CDOs, which have cast doubt on the rest, and (ii) there are technical complications, which I have not discussed above, which makes CDOs highly complicated.

"Are government bonds backed with anything other than the promise of the issuer?"

No. Some countries have indeed defaulted on their government bonds, such as Argentina and Russia. If I recall correctly, roughly 1% of corporations default every year. For that reason, there are several companies whose sole purpose is to credit-score companies and countries (e.g. S&P, Moody). Further, there are insurance policies which (hopefully) protect against default -- these are credit default swaps. To give a recent example, the cost of default insurance for Ireland's public debt rose sharply after it issued its blanket guarantee on bank deposits.
206

Nikostratos,

24/10/2008 18:25:32
"Hoots" Fandango,



saw a wheel chair parked outside the toilets near the bar
so i sat it in it and got wheeled around the bar area to everyone's mirth. and then the Italian who was using it hopped out of the toilet...Gulp he couldn't see the funny side at all got the pics to prove it..

anyway must go.........
207

brownlie,

24/10/2008 18:30:17
303 Nikos

You didn't have to bring it with you though!
208

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 18:44:49
Fairfax

from wiki

The United States total public debt, commonly called the national debt, or U.S. government debt, is the amount of money owed by the United States federal government to holders of U.S. debt instruments. Debt held by the public is all federal debt held by states, corporations, individuals, and foreign governments, but does not include intragovernmental debt obligations or debt held for Social Security. Types of securities held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.[1]

On 30 September 2008, the total U.S. federal debt passed the $10 trillion mark, for the first time[2], with about $32,895 per capita (that is, per U.S. resident). Of this amount, debt held by the public was roughly $5.3 trillion.[3] Adding unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, and similar obligations, this figure rises to a total of $59.1 trillion, or $516,348 per household.[4] In 2007, the public debt was 36.9 percent of GDP [5], with a total debt of 65.5 percent of GDP.[6] The CIA ranked the total percentage as 26th in the world.[7]

Public debt is the amount owed by the government to its creditors, whether they are nationals or foreigners. External debt is the debt of all sectors of the economy (public and private), owed to foreigners. In the U.S., foreign ownership of the public debt is a significant part of the nation's external debt. The Bureau of the Public Debt, a division of the United States Department of the Treasury, calculates the amount of money owed by the national government on a daily basis.[8][9][10][11]


209

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 18:47:56
Fairfax

Note:

"Debt held by the public is all federal debt held by states, corporations, individuals, and foreign governments"

"Types of securities held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.[1]"

Eh want to pass yer post at by us again??? and relate it to the part where it says "include but not limited to"??????????????


210

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 18:50:50
311

"False. The rest of the world knew exactly what the USSR and recognised it as such. They took years to think about it."

No it wasnt thats like saying NATO is a state as was the Warsaw pact??????????

Is Nato a state was the Warsaw pact a state by your definition??????
211

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:09:18
317

Both Nato and the Warsaw pact fit into your definition of a nation state.
212

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:10:47
314

You are entitled to a British passport because of the Union of crowns and for no other reason.
213

AM2am2,

24/10/2008 19:17:57

Iceland set for $2.1bn IMF help

Iceland's financial system has run aground

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has reached a "tentative" agreement to give aid to Iceland worth about $2.1bn (£1.3bn; 1.58bn euros).

It is the first Western country to have approached the IMF for aid since 1976.

Iceland said it should have immediate access to $833m if the "comprehensive stabilisation programme" is approved.

Its financial system is close to collapse after the country was forced to take over three of its biggest, debt-laden banks this month.

The Nordic nation's troubles have had severe repercussions elsewhere in Europe. In the UK, individual savers and local councils have been unable to access funds deposited in Icelandic banks.


The overarching goal is to support Iceland's efforts to adjust to the economic crisis in a more orderly and less painful way



Governments fight economic onslaught

Iceland's currency, the krona, has almost halved in value this year and banking transactions with other countries have almost completely frozen.

214

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:18:28
315

Yes the US, Austrailia, Canada, and India are all nation states as are Scotland England and Wales.
But not the UK the EU Africa, South America, Australisia, Asia.
215

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:25:05
Fairfax

Is third world debt a debt of bonds and securities??
216

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:28:47
326

Yes by SM definition it is. And the moon is the 51st state of the US.
217

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:36:30
330

Or we can save our 20 quid and declare our independence here instead.
218

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 19:55:47
337
"Curious, as I've never given a definition of a "nation state". On what do you base this ridiculous assertion"

Every example and argument you have produced tonight defines your idea of a nation state.

"The so-called 1603 "union of crowns" was no such thing and did not create a new state."

I have been arguing that all night its you who claims that the union of crowns has produced a nation state called the UK.

The present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the product of the Union Acts of 1707 and 1801, and the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921.

Can't you get that right?

Yes I agree but none of these treaties has created a nation state they have created a union of nation states as has the EU treaties of nation states.

Your finally comming closer to the point.
219

suchaparcelofrogues,

24/10/2008 19:59:59
338

The United nations and again the United nations.
The EU and again the EU.
The British commonwealth on Nations and again the British commonwealth of nations.
220

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:06:17
343

Yes the UK government should be really proud of the part it played in making HBOS vulnerable to the speculators and spivs by suspending the competition legislation to allow a take over bid.
221

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:09:20
344

Of course, they recognise the UK as a union of nation states under treaty which is why they always refer to us as the United Kingdoms of Greater Britain and Northern Ireland.
In the same way as they dont recognise the EU as a nation state but a union of nation states under treaty and refer to it as the European union.

222

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:15:53
348

Spot on Blimp. UK equals England in the eyes of the majority of the world therefore according to SM that is enough to make the UK a country called England.
223

Martyk,

24/10/2008 20:17:03
Somebody queried Mr Salmonds remark re UK and Irish relative GDPs. According to the CIA World Factbook Irelands GDP per capita is $ 46,600. The UK GDP per Capita is exactly $ 35,000. That makes Mr Salmond about right.
224

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:18:31
349

Name any state which recognises Scotland, or Northern Ireland, as the same.

WTF???? How can anybody mistake Scotland for NI or vice versa?? one is a Kingdom and forms the Northern part of the Island of Greater Britain the other is a political province of the UK but physically located on the island of Ireland.
225

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:20:27
349

What kind of slaver is that post??? I cant even see a point in there anywhere??
226

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:24:13
349

There are Scottish and Northern Irish as well as English and Welsh embassies in nearly if not all countries in the world using the same buildings and staff under the treaty of union agreements.
227

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:28:13
355

Then why dont you use the standard of living parameters when comparing the UK to Norway??
228

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 20:31:35
suchap (312): "Types of securities held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.[1]"

Eh want to pass yer post at by us again??? and relate it to the part where it says "include but not limited to"??"

Certainly. It has listed some, but not all, of the specific means used to raise money by the Federal. All of these are essentially bonds, in the sense I have defined in my earlier posts: they are fixed-term, fixed-interest rate loans made to tthe US government, which are themselves fungible. Since I've had to explain "bond" at a very basic level in our discussions, I'll leave you to discover precisely how a debenture differs from a bond, say.
229

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:32:44
349

"Does the Fat Minister command any armed forces, or have the power to sign international treaties?"

Funnily enough the President of the EU does but he isnt the head of a nation state is he?
So the point is irrelevant isnt it?
230

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:34:02
358

So the US borrows money by other methods other than by bonds then?
231

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 20:34:14
355. Oh dear oh dear, the congenital liar and Scotsman obsessive, AM2/ Rufus T/ Sm 753, keeps posting negativity for yet another 20 hours straight.

Other than running down Scotland and posting bile he never has anything to offer. Tragic really, but sadly reflective of most unionist contribution - rubbish our country, oppose any measure to boost our country, and deal only in negativity - welcome to the unionist vision....
232

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:37:49
362

Yes repeat a previous post over again in your usual trolling manner just to prove you have nothing left and have run out of waffle and tripe.
233

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 20:38:42
349. Negativity, bile, sneering - all the time. Welcome to Scottish unionist.com, and they still wonder why they lost to the SNP last year and why the SNP won a stunning victory in Glasgow East this year.


We all know now where to turn when we want pessimism, total lack of self confidence and zero positive vision for Scotland - an agenda to run down Scotland and her people - Scottish Unionist.com - against Scotland and running it down, all negative, all bitter, all the time
234

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:40:38
358

Bills and notes are not bonds bills and notes are hard cash.
235

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 20:40:55
362. Such bitter, personal vitriol directed at the democratically elected FM of Scotland who has been standing up for Scottish interests...

Scottish unionists.com - all pedantic nonsense and hair splitting (look at the rubbish about states/nations/UK and embassies - is pitiful), all negative, always running Scotland down, all the time
236

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 20:42:38
366. Irrelevance, pedantry, hair splitting, sophistry - welcome to Scottish Unionists.com - never caring or contributing on big issues about the furture of Scotland, always happy to obfuscate and be negative, all the time.
237

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:43:04
366

Every nation on the planet recognises Scotland as a nation state including England. Look up any atlas printed in any language in any country and you will find a wee country on it called Scotland. You will also find a reference to the union of nation states called the UK.
238

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 20:44:53
366. Time you changed moniker again AM2, back to rufus T or anyof your others, to disguise the fact that you are on here 23 hours a day, always spitting bile and sneering at Scotland, and never ever with anything construtive to state.

"Visit Scottish unionists.com today - we are rubbish and lack self confidence, and want all of Scotland to feel the same - log on to feel real pessimism and negativity about your country today!"
239

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:51:05
362

"Any embassies in Edinburgh or Belfast?

Does the Fat Minister command any armed forces, or have the power to sign international treaties?"

When Lithuania, Latvia Estonia and the Ukraine where annexed by Soviet Russia they didnt have embassies nor did they command their own armed forces nor where they able to negotiate international treaties while they were subject to the USSR yet they never lost their international status as nation states did they?
240

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 20:58:11
374

"I stand for a UK which can demonstrate that a multi-national, multi-ethnic polity can thrive in Europe."

You mean the biggest part can thrive at the expense of the rest dont you?

"One which can strike a humane balance between the free-marketism of the US and the state corporatism of Europe"

By humanely invading or going to war with nearly every nation on the planet and creating the biggest annexed empire the world has ever known.

"One which will stand up for the values of democracy and freedom throughout the world, using force if appropriate."

See above plus sending its troops to war as a mercenary force for another nation bent on stealing natural resources belonging to other nations.

"And most important of all, a UK which will defend the autheniticity and importance of real, brown, cellar-temperature, non-carbonated beer against ghastly chilled fizzy yellow piss"

No accounting for taste.
241

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 21:04:38
374. AM2

you have previously posted that you would oppose an independent Scotland even if it meant an increase in wealth for Scots and no negative for the rest of the UK.

This is your hard line, fundamentalist, obsessive position - a poorer Scotland in the name of your retrograde nationalistic obsession with all things Brit - that you choose to dress it up as "positivity" just shows the desperate, hard line nature of your negative Brit Nat position.

Welcome to Scots Unionists.com - all Brit Nat, all Brit, even if it makes Scotland poorer
242

Kyle N Carrick,

24/10/2008 21:06:05
378. So what?

Pathetic, hair splitting nonsense from the Brit Nat negative squad - no thoughts or input ever on how to improve Scotland, just negativity and running Scotland down
243

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 21:06:07
376

Scotland England NI and Wales are all in the same boat as Estonia Latvia Ukraine and Lithuania were when they were part of the USSR. Therefore to state that nation states are only acknowledged as nation states if another nation state bases an embassy in its capital is a false statement is it not?
Not every nation in the world has an embassy in every other nation in the world but they still recognise the nations they dont have embassies in as nations do they not?
Besides Taiwan is not recognised by China as a nation state does that mean it isnt?
244

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 21:06:53
378

Taiwan is not recognised by China as a nation.
245

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 21:08:38
378

Scotland is a Kingdom nation not a state.
Texas and California are states.
246

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 21:10:42
379

And the worse part of it is he is English and not Scots at all.
247

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 21:18:31
suchap (360): "So the US borrows money by other methods other than by bonds then?"

It has the capability to, certainly. In practice, it has used bonds (and their near relatives) since the late 18th century.

What is your difficulty here? The primary method used to borrow money in developing nations is via bond auctions (together with some very similar financial instruments which the general reader might as well regard as bonds). You don't have to take this on trust -- simply buy a textbook on international finance. The only reason to depart from bonds is in times of extraordinary need, or when the state has defaulted and can no longer find buyers. Exceptional cases amongst devloped nations would include Britain accepting an IMF loan in 1976, or Iceland's current negotiations with the IMF, Britain, the other Nordic nations, and others. Amongst undeveloped nations, some are simply too untrustworthy to raise funds via bonds, instead relying on other methods, such as shares in natural resources.
248

Martyk,

24/10/2008 21:41:56
SM753. The Irish and UK GDP figures ARE on a PPP basis. As you said I should use them you can hardly deny their relevance I presume. Mr Salmond said Irish GDP per capita was 40% higher than the UKs. The fact that the CIA website makes it 33% hardly makes Mr Salmond a liar.
249

Martyk,

24/10/2008 21:50:19
Wasnt Texas an independent state?
250

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 22:06:57
390

Nobody recognises Scotland as a "state" everybody recognises Scotland as a Kingdom Nation.
How many times has that fact to be posted before you are able to read and understand it?

A number of Western nations recognised the Baltic countries as Nations not states they were recognised as Russian federal states within the USSR.

392

When the UK government posts it as a statistic or data parameter.
251

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 22:10:00
397

If Scotland and England are not Kingdom nations then there can be no political entity calling itself the United Kingdoms of Greater Britain can there?
Now you want to pretend its all a wind up to cover the fact that your simply an idiot and way out of your depth.
252

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 24/10/2008 22:12:24
400

What about the Isle of Man?
253

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 24/10/2008 22:30:52
Congratulations Alex Neil, Scotsman, Salmond, Sprowat and all the other politicians, journos and financiers who are fighting this merger. Suddenly, it's game on.

As for those who mock and laugh at Iceland, you are completely missing the point which is that a country with HALF the population of GLASGOW managed to build such a successful economy in the first place.

A leading economist (I think it was Alan Greenspan) said yesterday that this global crisis is a ONCE IN A LIFE TIME financial tsunami, so there is no point holding this up as an example why Scotland should not have Independence. Think about it.
254

Fairfax,

24/10/2008 23:50:14
Col Blimp (405): "Henry VIII claimed the title "King of Ireland" in 1542.The title "King of Ireland" was created by an act of the Irish Parliament in 1541, replacing the Lordship of Ireland, which had existed since 1171, with the Kingdom of Ireland."

Indeed. The marvellous Henry II, certainly the most intelligent Frenchman to rule England, persuaded the only English pope, Adrian IV, to make him Lord of Ireland. I'm particularly nostalgic for the 12th and 13th centuries, although I still prefer the 17th.
255

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 24/10/2008 23:58:05
The 1801 union is a complete red herring as it actually ended when the Irish republic left. Britain never had any legitimate right to Ireland. Northern Ireland is not recognised as a seperate country under international law for the simple reason that it isn't one. Britain only kept it illegally by military force after the whole of Ireland voted for independence.

The 1707 union is the important one and when it ends the United Kingdom/British state ends. The Queen might remain head of state (though as she's a ringer anyway it hardly matters) but the ultimate decision on that would be ours.
256

Fairfax,

25/10/2008 00:03:31
Col Blimp (393): "Main Entry: pol·i·ty

Function: noun

Etymology: Late Latin politia — (more at police}"

Your dictionary is being etymologically naive. It's a Latin borrowing from Greek: Polis originally meant city-state, whence politeia (Greek) and polity (Latin), but later came to mean the state itself (in our sense), or the theory of the state. For example, the book usually known as "Plato's Republic" is called "Politeia" in Greek. I suppose the easiest translation of "polity" is "state".

Did anyone watch Newsnight Review on the Byzantium Exhibition? It was pathetic -- the usual middle-brow trash that has become their norm. They could at least have forced Emily Maitlis to present it, followed by a ritual excoriation of Will Self. Sadly, none of this transpired.
257

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 25/10/2008 06:56:21
412

He's actually one of the dumbest clowns I have had the misfortune of posting to on here.
258

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 25/10/2008 07:02:44
404

"Nobody recognises Scotland as a "state""

Ahh! At last.

I told you upteen times Scotland wasnt a state it was a nation state in fact a Kingdom nation state.
Being an ignorant w*nker isnt the way to go through life.

Smeagal yer a clown. It isnt the United Kingdom of Great Britain it is the United Kingdoms of Greater Britain. Finding passages which misquote in ignorance isnt pushing your case very far.
259

Truely English,

25/10/2008 22:37:54
We are told that Scotland is a nation but that Britain is not. Could someone out please explain why Scotland is a nation and why Britain is not?

 

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