Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Wednesday, 15th October 2008

London from only £11.50 plus, over 50 Other Discounted National Express Train Routes

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Scotland On Sunday site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

In the shadow of the blade



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 20 July 2008
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION: PETER ROSS
Children fight in the same gangs as their fathers before them, while doctors treat a facial injury every six hours. In a special report, Scotland on Sunday explores Glasgow's culture of violence and the scarred lives left behind


THERE will be blood. That much is certain. Right now, as you read this, young men are preparing to hurt each other with knives, axes, swords, broken bottles and bats, chains, chibs, coshes and clubs. Gang violence is an epidemic in Glasgow and the west of Scotland, where doctors treat a serious facial injury every six hours. Estimates vary regarding the number of street gangs in the city. Some place it as high as 170, more than London, a population six times as large, but Strathclyde Police believe there are 52 active gangs in their area, each with up to 20 members. They estimate there are between 200 to 300 gang members in the east end of Glasgow alone. That's not boys who merely boast an allegiance to one gang or another. That's boys who actually fight.

These fights may be impromptu rucks kicked off by a breach of the exclusion zone that is another gang's turf. Others may be arranged in advance by text message or over the internet, a use of technology at odds with the dark ages mayhem that follows. However the fight begins, the participants will almost certainly be drunk or high or both, and they will spill each others' blood on the same bridge, road or disputed patch of waste ground where their fathers and grandfathers spilt the blood of their rivals.

You hear stories of parents passing weapons out windows to their sons. This blood-letting has been going on for generations and the tragedy is it's about nothing at all. Yes, it's to do with territory, but none of these slashers and stabbers own the land they are so keen to defend. These schemes were run first by the council and then the housing associations. The gangs come from some of the most socially deprived areas in Britain, and they lack economic power. Their ownership of these streets is an illusion, but they believe it. Sometimes, as we walk past a big noisy group on a dark night, we believe it too. The truth is that they are likely to die young and poor, owning nothing but their scars.

When David Cameron came to Glasgow this month and talked about a "broken society" he will have had all this in mind. Gordon Brown, who spoke last week of people not feeling safe on the streets or in their homes, might have been thinking of any number of recent knife attacks. From London to Livingston, Bolton to Balado, Britain feels the blade at its throat.

Yet, there are people in Scotland unwilling to take a fatalist view. There is a growing feeling that enough is enough. Look at the statistics. According to the World Health Organisation, Scotland's murder rate for teenagers and young adults is five times that of England and Wales. About 3,000 people were seriously assaulted with a weapon in Glasgow last year, but only about 1,000 reported it because either they fear reprisals or they hate the police. There are medical people saying openly that it might be good that so many gang members suffer post-traumatic stress disorder when they are cut in the face if it means they are too afraid to leave the house and cause more mayhem.

Who wants to live in a country or a city with a silver lining like that? Not Detective Chief Inspector Iain Cunningham of the recently formed Violence Reduction Task Force, a unit of Strathclyde Police dedicated to cracking down on gang fighting and knife crime. "These people need to realise that the police are the biggest gang in town," he says. "We might have lost some footing, but it's still our law and nobody else's."

In other words, the fightback starts here.

"It's the police! Come to the door!"

That shout and the pounding of a black-gloved fist break the silence of this wet weekday morning in Castlemilk, scattering drowsy pigeons and echoing round the scheme. Plain-clothes constables in jeans and stab-vests are clustered round the entrance to a pebble-dashed flat; the officer in front, medieval in a visored helmet, grips a battering ram.

It's 7am, and the only other people up are bin men, their lorry emblazoned with the Clean Glasgow logo. The police are on a similar mission. They, too, want to clean the city. Clean off the blood. The officers of the Violence Reduction Task Force are used to early starts. More than 300 arrests have been made since their first operation, in Drumchapel, on March 21.

The plan today is to apprehend a 20-year-old man involved in a running battle between rival gangs in the east end of the city. Five other raids are taking place simultaneously. The police – two men, two women – are poised at the door with their battering ram and the crowbar they refer to as a "hoolie bar".

They are let into the flat, search the premises, and after 45 minutes bring out a young man, clownish in a baggy tracksuit, who is led, cuffed and cursing, to an unmarked car. His seized weapons – replica handguns, a heavy chain and homemade martial arts nunchucks – go in the boot. At other homes, police seize a machete and combat dagger. Then they drive back to Saracen Police Station in Possilpark, sling their stab-vests over the backs of their seats, grab a cup of tea and start writing it up.

The Violence Reduction Task Force is made up of 20 constables representing each of Strathclyde Police's eight divisions. There are also two sergeants, DCI Cunningham and additional manpower drawn when needed from elsewhere in the force. The unit is led by Superintendent Bob Hamilton, a no-nonsense 43-year-old in a short-sleeved white shirt, silver crowns on his epaulettes and a red Viz mug on his desk. He grew up in Airdrie and regards gang violence with a mixture of mystification and contempt. Neither is he interested in the idea that, for these young men, belonging to a gang can be a mixture of family tradition and cultural pride. He picks up a long list of gang names from his desk, saying: "To be honest, I don't care what they call themselves. But if they start chibbing each other, that's unacceptable."

He gives me the list to look at. One east end gang in particular catches my eye. The Wee Men don't sound very threatening. "There's a few of them called Wee Men," Hamilton says. "Unfortunately, Wee Men carry big blades."

The task force is the tactical arm of the force's Violence Reduction Coordination Unit which itself is part of the Violence Reduction Unit, a national strategic body set up in 2005. Superintendent Hamilton is in no doubt of the part he and his unit play in all of this. "Our primary role is enforcement," he says. "They should be scared of us on the street."

Hamilton would rather gang members changed their ways and didn't need to be arrested and put through the courts, and he is very happy to try to persuade them to contact the various partner organisations that attempt to rehabilitate offenders. But he wants gang members to understand that the police are there to uphold the law, not act as community workers: "We don't want to be seen as cuddly people who will take you hillwalking. If you meet us, there is only one place you are going to – jail."

This is tough talk, and there's a lot of old-fashioned policing in their approach, but the task force is a sophisticated operation. They are particularly keen to use material posted by gangs on the likes of YouTube and Bebo as a way of building intelligence about members. They have learned to read gang graffiti and identify who has been in a particular area by the marks they leave behind. They will arrest for vandalism, too, though. It's a zero tolerance approach.

Every day the task force receives a list of incidents recorded on CCTV. Speaking to local police and sometimes school liaison officers, they try to identify the individuals fighting in the footage. Next, warrants will be secured, and raids made. These can be quite heavy. They have a secondary function as a show of strength intended to reassure terrified communities that the police are back in charge. One operation in the Calton, intended to secure an individual who had fired a crossbow during a fight in broad daylight, was carried out by a firearms team.

"It's something we have used sparingly," says Hamilton, "but it's a strong message to send out, and I think that community that morning saw that we're not playing games here. If you are going about with lethal weapons, we will meet that challenge with lethal force as well."

Since the task force arrested most of the people they had identified as ringleaders, the crime rate in Calton has dropped; there have been around half as many serious assaults and attempted murders as in the same period last year.

To give me an idea of the sort of violent behaviour they are trying to stamp out, I am shown footage of a number of incidents. It's astonishing seeing the weapons involved. Knives, of course, but also metal crutches, a shovel, a samurai sword. "They play a lot of croquet in the Calton," Hamilton says, dryly, pointing his cursor at a mallet.

"We searched the room of one ringleader, who was 15 or 16, and brought out an array of weapons. There was huge thick swords like Braveheart, daggers and a piece of wood about three feet long with a scythe taped on.

"I think one of the reasons violence happens is because that sort of thing isn't challenged by the parents. His mum said to one of our officers, perfectly seriously: 'Ah, that's just his weapons.'"

The most gut-torquing bit of footage I see is of a teenage boy, isolated in a park, surrounded by a gang shouting and screaming at him. Again, it's broad daylight. One boy in particular assaults him, punching and kicking. Hamilton provides a commentary. "See that stamping on the head? Look, there's another one holding him up and, look, he kicks him right in the face again. We showed this to a consultant who told us that he went unconscious with that blow. You can actually see his leg twitching."

This image was taken from a mobile phone which the police captured. Someone filmed this. They wanted to be able to watch again at leisure. This particular incident illustrates a couple of interesting points about the task the police are facing. First of all, the victim did not report the crime, and second, there is often very little difference between victim and perpetrator. The guy who throws a brick today is the same guy who gets hit by a brick tomorrow. There's something very karmic about gang fighting in that regard, but it is frustrating for the police. Why bother trying to change that, though? If these young men – and it is almost always men; women will sometimes fight, but are more usually tasked with carrying weapons and shouting encouragement from the sidelines – want to hurt each other then why not let them get on with it? If it's a closed circle, gang on gang, and no one else is getting hurt, why intervene?

"Well, it isn't just gangs getting hurt," says Hamilton. "Innocent people have been stabbed by gangs who are hyper and full of drink. There's one video I've seen of a guy who was going out with his girlfriend for their engagement, and he gets out a taxi in Glasgow city centre, and somebody walks by and stabs him in the chest, and the guy dies. He had no connection to it. We can't let that go on."

It's impossible to think about this for very long without wondering why the young men are doing it and how they can bring themselves to do so. Includem is a Scotland-wide charity working with about 700 young people including gang members and other violent offenders. Their approach is for an assigned worker to spend a great deal of one-on-one time with each young person, as much as three hours a day, seven days a week, developing trust and challenging offensive and risky behaviour. The reoffending rates of the young people with whom they work are 14% compared with a 54% national average for under-21s.

Through Includem, I am introduced to Liam McKemison, 21, and Jamie Dunsmore, 22, both of whom have been with the project since they were 16. They have both spent time in prison and have, in the past, been extremely violent people. That life is behind them now, but they are willing to tell me about those bad old days.

"I had a brilliant childhood, so I can't blame it on that," says McKemison, who is tall and well-dressed, with soulful eyes and a golden crucifix at his throat. He grew up in Clydebank; "Little Ireland" is how he specifies it. "There's a lot of peer pressure just to fit in. There was a group of us. The Whitecrook group would fight Yoker, and then more people would come, and everybody would shout: 'Young Crazy Brazie' and that was the gang. We done everything together – went to school, hung about, went out drinking, took drugs, chased lassies."

He says that his violent behaviour escalated, Saturday by Saturday, as he felt he had to top what he had done before. In terms of who he assaulted, he was indiscriminate. "I didn't care. I was 'Mad Liam'. Everyone wanted to see me at the weekend. On our scheme, everybody knew my name. I felt famous and that everybody liked me. If somebody looked at me the wrong way, everybody expected me to do something."

Did he ever get hurt? "I've been stabbed once. It wasn't really that bad. But I got hit with a meat cleaver in the head and got 18 staples. I've had bottles, bats, every hard object you can think of hitting my head."

Did he use weapons himself? "I've never really carried knives," he explains with a fair amount of self-disgust. "I preferred to use a bat because of the clunk it made. That's how messed up in the head I was. I didn't like the aluminium baseball bats. I preferred the wooden ones. It makes a better noise."

McKemison is in favour of the idea, briefly floated and then retracted last week by Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, that people caught carrying knives should be taken to see victims of knife crime. He thinks they should take schoolchildren to the morgue. "That would have made me think," he says.

Dunsmore, from Larkhall, used to carry a knife. "At first I said it was for protection," he says. "But if you carry a knife you are going to use it. I was 14 when I started carrying it. I was in children's homes and had no parents coming into my room, so I could keep knives and bats in there, and it just continued, even when I was working with Includem. I was with them for six months when I got done for attempted murder, though it got dropped to serious assault. A couple of boys were shouting at my sister. I fought one and he got the better of me. I thought: 'That'll be right,' so I went back down and stabbed him."

Dunsmore phoned Includem's 24-hour helpline and his worker persuaded him, after a few days, to give himself up to the police.

How is it possible to hurt someone like that, I ask. To go up to another human being and push a blade into their body must take quite a lot. "Not really so much if you're under the influence," Dunsmore explains. "That blanks everything. If I was sober I wouldn't have had the bottle to stab that boy. See drink and drugs? It's like a visor over your face. You'd need to be really dangerous to go up and stab the hell out of somebody while stone-cold sober. To even face all that blood."

Everyone I speak to agrees that drugs and alcohol are at the root of the violence problem in Scotland. Dr Christine Goodall, 45, is a lecturer in oral surgery at the Glasgow Dental Hospital. In association with the Violence Reduction Unit she has carried out studies looking at the correlation between alcohol and facial trauma. Specialist doctors in the west of Scotland see around 1,000 patients a year with facial trauma. Almost three-quarters of those injuries are sustained as a result of interpersonal violence, and 84% were drinking to excess at the time.

Goodall offers patients short counselling sessions during which a nurse tries to get them to understand how alcohol contributed to their getting hurt. These sessions have resulted in heavy drinkers cutting down. "But we are just trying to hold back the tide and stop people getting a second injury," she says. "That's not preventing the violence happening in the first place."

Superintendent Hamilton's task force have also been involved in tackling the alcohol problem, targeting pubs and off-licences which sell alcohol to minors. There are other reasons, though, why Scotland – and the west in particular – may be so violent.

Mark Devlin, 42, a maxillofacial surgeon at the Southern General Hospital, suggests that the breakdown in community spirit means young people no longer have much empathy, making it easier for them to inflict pain on others. Keir McKechnie, 42, a senior project worker at Includem, believes that these young men are lacking in self-worth and so are unable to see any worth in others; it's easy to destroy what you do not value. Alex Richardson, meanwhile, says they are simply bored.

Richardson, 48, is the head of Gladiator, an organisation in Easterhouse which keeps kids out of trouble by involving them in sport. He's a former gang member who escaped that life by becoming a British champion weightlifter. "I kept my weightlifting bar in the coal cellar," he recalls. "To me it was a broomstick that flew me all round the world."

I drive down Easterhouse Road with him, the streets bright with posters for the Glasgow East by-election, while he points out gang territories. "That's Bal-Toi," he says. "This is the Provy Rebels." Richardson sounds quite gleeful when discussing his own street-fighting days, remembering with a laugh the time in 1968 when Frankie Vaughan came to broker a weapons armistice, and how all the local kids stole knives from their kitchens because the media were paying sixpence to film each blade handed in. Earlier in our discussion he had pulled down his trousers and showed me his scars. Make no mistake, though – he loathes the gangs.

"I'm damn angry that it's still going on today," he says. "I heard an eight-year-old kid, a couple of weeks ago, graphically describe the doings that he's had and how he's bursted faces of other kids the same age. His sole reason for being in a gang? 'I'm in the Drummy cos ma da was in the Drummy.'

"We've got third-generation gang members now. Nobody calls their area by its name. You don't say Kildermorie, you say Bal-Toi; you don't say East Hall, you say Skinheids. Even people that have never been in trouble call their community by its gang name. So Sadie's 45 with a five-year-old grandkid, and Sadie's going: 'Harry bought a hoose in Skinheids today.' That's what that wean's hearing. Fifteen years later the wean gets stabbed to death at the bus stop and Sadie's going: 'I don't understand how that happened.' Well, it was because she's subconsciously told him he's to fight for Skinheids.

"The boundaries are mythically handed down from generation to generation. We're trying to smash those barriers. We put T-shirts on kids saying: 'My school's in Wellhouse not Torran-toi' with a big X through the gang name, belittling it."

Gladiator organises football matches and other sports events on neutral ground, bussing in kids from rival areas so they don't have to walk through dangerous territory. The idea is that if they get to know and respect people from other gang districts then the whole idea of territorialism will become meaningless for them.

It's a bit depressing to learn that Richardson recently made the hard decision to move out of Easterhouse as his two boys, aged seven and eight, were beginning to talk about gang fighting. That shows you how bad things have got – when even community leaders feel they have to leave the community.

However, it's ideas like Gladiator, Includem, the Violence Reduction Unit and all the other organisations out there, that are gradually gaining ground in this fight. There were less assaults with a bladed weapon in Strathclyde last year than the year before. To keep that happening we need to throw imagination and determination at the problem, and keep believing that brains and sweat will overcome those who cause the flow of tears. Yes, there will be blood tonight, and most likely tomorrow, but perhaps at some point in the future, even in Glasgow, even in poor divided Easterhouse, there will be peace.

'I've had my independence ripped away'

SCOTT BRESLIN, 23, FROM PENILEE


'I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was Saturday night, about 11 o'clock, and I was at my friend's house in Cardonald. A couple of friends phoned to say they had just been chased. It was stupid, but me and Ginger Jim went out to see what was happening.

We turned a corner and there was about 12 boys and girls outside the library. We started walking by, but they were asking: "Where are youse from?"

One pulled out a knife so we ran. My mate fell and I picked him up. Then I felt like a punch on the right-hand side of my neck. The knife severed my spinal cord. I hit the ground. My face smashed, my teeth shattered, my nose broke, and that was it – I was paralysed from the neck down.

When I woke I heard people talking over me. An ambulance was there. It turned out that when I was on the ground, another guy stabbed me in the arse. These two boys had just met each other and had been showing off. They were 19 and 20. Drunk or full of something.

I'd like to think they wouldn't have wanted this, but the one that stabbed me in the neck comes from a notorious family. His path was marked out before he was born. That's why we need to educate the parents and the children that how they're living isn't the way everybody lives. Anyway, he got 10 years and the other got four and a half, but their sentences were reduced and they're out now. I've no bitterness towards them, but in court they didn't show remorse.

I was in intensive care for three days, then the Southern General spinal unit for nine months, and didn't really speak to anybody, just sat in front of a TV with headphones on. That was my escape.

Since I've been back in my own environment I've been coming to terms with it, but I've had my independence ripped away. It takes two and a half hours for me to get up in the morning. I get bathed by two carers, then physio to keep my joints supple, then I'm dressed, and carers position me in my chair.

I'm hoping for a positive future, though. I'm at college three days and want to go to uni, then maybe work in radio. I'm my dad's only son, so that's been a kick in the teeth for him. But I'm trying to make him proud by living as close to a normal life as I can.'

Taking on Glasgow's knife thugs

Mark Devlin, 42, a maxillofacial surgeon at the Southern General Hospital, describes the human cost of the city's sickening addiction to violence.

"Within the last six months, I've fished an Irn-Bru bottle out of somebody's head. It smashed on impact and he had a soft-tissue injury, and as I got deeper and deeper into it, I realised that bits of glass were sitting against his brain. The wee Barr's Irn-Bru guy on the label was sitting waving at me from inside his head.

"The bulk of what we see is blunt trauma, and the majority of that is down to violence. The smaller and increasing number is down to sharp trauma – people who have been slashed or stabbed in the head or the neck, that sort of thing. Blunt trauma involves broken jaws, broken cheekbones, broken eyesockets, all of which can be caused by a punch or a kick. If you add a weapon to the equation – a stick, pipe or a bat – you get a more complex pattern of injuries. Often they might require plating of the fractures with plates and screws to hold everything in position.

"Some sharp trauma wounds are also complex. They might require facial-nerve repair. They might have been slashed through the saliva ducts and if that went unrepaired you would have saliva leaking out on to your face. A stabbing in the head and neck is potentially life-threatening because of the large blood supply to that area. So what can appear very little in terms of the size of a wound can kill you if it catches something. Sharp, heavy weapons like machetes or swords will, by and large, give you a complex injury not just of the soft-tissues. It will break your jaw as well.

"It's dismaying seeing the same young people, who have the potential to do much more, back again and again. I see parents coming in with young guys, and they're not appalled that their son is in hospital having been in a fight. I'm from Govan, and my mum and dad would have been beside themselves. They would have viewed it as a parental failure. The parents I see are more like, 'Oh, he was a bit unlucky'. This is not a problem because they don't have money or because there isn't a community centre to go to. It's a problem because of their attitude to violence."



The full article contains 4467 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 July 2008 9:15 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Knife culture
 
1

,

20/07/2008 02:23:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Guga II,

Rockall 20/07/2008 02:40:05
Round all the gang members up and ship them to South Georgia, along with all the other violent neds, thugs and paedophiles. Give them some fishing lines and hooks, and leave them to it. It's a nice cheap solution as there is no need for guards or anything else.
3

,

20/07/2008 02:44:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Lobo,

Texas 20/07/2008 04:31:02
Knives aren't the problem. Sad your government can't see that.
5

Gunn,

20/07/2008 07:26:47
If knives are a problem it's because the Government and the media have hyped up the problem! They have created the scare. Why?

The truth is that the Government's own statistics show that knife crime, as proportion of all violent incidents where a knife was used, has remained at or below eight per cent .... since 1997!!!

So, why all the fuss now? Might it be that they want to divert public attention from what is happening Iraq & Afghanistan, or to scare us into accepting the continued erosion of civil rights in the UK, like the latest idea of tracking our telephone calls and emails? Or is it something else they want to cover?
6

eric,

lothian 20/07/2008 08:09:04
My brother was in a phone box in Edinburgh and a guy opened the door with a knife and said are you going to be much longer,Brother hung up and left.
7

Dood,

20/07/2008 08:12:30
#3 - Spot on.

The problem lies squarely with the Government and they have done very little to address it. We had promises from the Lord Advocate a couple of years ago that offenders would face jail terms but what happened?

The bottom line is that we either require more prison spaces or a complete reform of the prison service. Currently imprisonment is of no consequence to the majority of offenders. They go in, enjoy comfortable surroundings and are not scared to go back.

Either we increase our prison capacity and increase sentencing with it, or we reform the prison system by making them places offenders do not want to go back into.

Alternatively, we could start administering summary justice, popular still in some countries. You steal, we chop off your hand etc.......

We certainly have enough knives and skilled young butchers to do it.
8

John S,

20/07/2008 08:33:39
From the Labour Party 2005 manifesto:-
Reducing the use of guns and knives.
Dangerous weapons fuel violence.We have banned all handguns,introduced five-year minimum sentences for those caught with an unlawful firearm and raised the age limit for owning an air gun.Now we will go further.
We will introduce a Violent Crime Reduction Bill to restrict the sale of replica guns, raise the age limit for buying knives to 18 and tighten the law on air guns. Head teachers will have legal rights
to search pupils for knives or guns. At-risk pubs and clubs will be required to search for them and we will introduce tougher sentences for carrying replica guns, for those involved in serious knife crimes and for those convicted of assaulting workers serving the public
9

Biker,

Ayr 20/07/2008 08:36:48
#7 and #3. If you read the article you will glean from it that the problem has been in existance for many many decades. I well remember the Frankie Vauhane fiasco many years ago when he attempted to calm gang tentions in Glasgow. So it aint just Labour.
I do agree however that the solution to the problem has to be better government direction, and that means all of them not just labour or the SNP.
Prison reform is a good point but I would suggest that while in prison, these idiots are educated fully before release rather than just bundling them all together in a big school of crime.
Good point though about this being a smokescreen to hide other more pressing issues.
10

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 20/07/2008 08:41:38
Dissuade the Underclass from breeding by putting a cap on the length of time you can be on benefits. Say a maximum of a couple of years in a lifetime, except if you're physically incapable of doing ANY work. Other than that you get fed and clothed in exchange for public work. Child benefit for 2 kids max. And long, long jail time for those that can't live in the company of civilised people. A mandatory 10 years with no parole for carrying a knife should help a good few gang members reflect.
11

Dood,

20/07/2008 08:50:49
#9, I'm not being funny, but I did read the article. It was nothing new to me. I work in this field.

You're wrong though, it is Labour. In respect of the fact that Labour made promises and failed to honour them. Why promise that knife offenders will be dealt with by considering custodial sentences (a vote winner) whilst knowing fine well that we don't have the prison space?

Campaign starts here.....

BUILD MORE PRISONS. JAIL MORE NEDS.
12

Dood,

20/07/2008 08:51:33
And I repeat.....

BUILD MORE PRISONS. JAIL MORE NEDS.
13

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 20/07/2008 09:02:32
#12 And assisted suicide for those who actually use them... pity we didn't have politicians who had enough bottle to bring back the death penalty.
14

Media 1,

cape town 20/07/2008 09:32:36
Scrap your dole system! You need to scrap it NOW!
15

Graham Barnes,

Gravesend 20/07/2008 09:37:49
There is obviously a problem here that is beyond those that run the country. As someone has already mentioned, these politicians live in leafy suburbs, they are miles away from the problem. They don't have to encounter these yobs whenever they visit the shops or walk through their local park. They don't face the stares and the comments from these people, designed as a challenge to anyone that would oppose them. They don't see the problem as we do, aren't on the 'front line.' It's ironic that the people that vote these people in have a far better idea of how to deal with the problem. One thing is for sure; unless they now grasp the nettle and do something concrete about this problem, things will only get worse. The zero tolerance that someone mentioned is required here. More severe sentencing is also required for those caught with a knife without good reason, and prisons need to become prisons, not holiday camps.
16

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 20/07/2008 09:46:36
KNIFE GUN IF YOU CARRIE IT YOUR THEN YOUR PREPAIRED TO USE.KILL MAME OR SCAR SOME ONE !!COME ON JUDGES JAIL WITH THEM NO PAROLE .POLICE TRY HARD BUT THE COURTS LET THEM AND US DOWN.
17

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 20/07/2008 10:09:40
#15 Graham

You're right that it seems to be a problem that's beyond the political elite that runs the country. It doesn't matter what party you vote for, you get a self-satisfied liberal with a small 'l'. All of them out of touch with ordinary people. They've been running the criminal justice system like this since the 60s. Crime, however much they try to massage the figures, has been going up relentlessly since. Yet, according to Henry McLeish, it's because TOO MANY people are going to jail!!
18

Media 1,

cape town 20/07/2008 10:10:54
Its all about the dole system!
Can the dole system, can it now.
19

fishermans blues,

20/07/2008 10:20:46
#5 - Give it a rest with the old smoke-screen explanation. Try explaining your theory to the families of victims of knife crime (whilst wearing a protective vest).

#3 - You are almost there, but I think some parents need to accept some share of the blame. As a public servant (many apologies) for the past 10 years, which included working with young offenders and adult offenders, I have witnessed some parent's behaving in certain ways that made there children's perfectly understandable. Prison is too comfortable and lacks purpose. Prisoners should have to earn their freedom, and should not blight our communities until they can convince us they are reformed.

Politicians should be made to spend some time themselves working in some our of more deprived communities and with some of our more challenging families. This may assist them in developing some decent legislation as I can assure you, they have failed to achieve this with style over the past decade. Put real people in positions of power as opposed to some of the Muppet's we seem to find ourselves with.
20

Anderman,

Victoria BC 20/07/2008 10:26:57
This is a depressing story which only adds to the dilemma already facing parents much like myself who has a daughter planning to take her Masters at Glasgow
University. Travel agents here are already warning visitors who are non-expats and not familiar with the city to give Glasgow a wide berth when travelling in Scotland.This is indeed sad for I remember Glasgow as being friendly and safe, a place of art and culture and not what is now being referred to as one of the most violent cities in the world.
21

,

20/07/2008 11:03:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 20/07/2008 11:48:31
Doesn't sound like much has changed. #21 is right of course. "No Mean City" was pre-war Glasgow.
In the late 60's 'The Daily Telegraph" Friday Supplement had an article about this very thing. It included the same scenarios as the ones in the above article and interviewed some members of the 'Tongs! Ya Bass' and showed pictures of the knives and swords used in the armoury. That was before Samurai swords became popular. Guns were never in-vogue then and even the police only had a pair of 'cuffs, a whistle and a truncheon while the country copper had a pair of size 10 boots that corrected many a problem.
When I was young in the mid 40's in Shettlestone it was the 'Honey Pears' but though the names changed the scenarios didn't and all of this doesn't include the sectarian divide which could be qualified by which footbal team one supported or colours worn. A cousin of mine had a very nasty experience driving through a 'Green' area in his Blue company car.
It was thought that clearing out the slum areas (and I won't name them) would have solved a lot of the problems, but it seems that the mind-set and the culture remained and or was exported.
"No Mean City" means "No easy answers".
23

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow 20/07/2008 12:14:26
#20
If your daughter is not a member of a gang she will have nothing to fear if she chooses to study in Glasgow. This city is no different from other large cities in the world. Thousands of students come here to study and the city is crowded with tourists from all over the world. Of course there is crime.This even applies to Edinburgh.I am sure your daughter will have a great time here.
24

Mcsnagpile,

20/07/2008 12:28:00
There is a big difference between Glasgow and other towns in England. Most if the gangs in England come from immigrant families like Nigeria and Jamacia etc.

Some suggestions

Violent Glaswegians should be deported to banana plantations. All persons found carrying a knife should have a tattoo of Mickey Mouse tattooed on their forehead. Then we will all know who they are before they go in to carving mode.

We could turn a remote Scottish Island into a hunt island where people can go to carry knifes and hunt each other down and main and kill each other. We could call it Butcher Island.

They could have compulsory service in an abattoir, dissecting animals.

Another idea is to giver compulsory military service where they will be parachuted out into remote areas of the world where their skills can be used for some thing more constructive--like fighting drug abuse.
A violent criminal record regiment might be of use like the foreign legion. The Scottish reprobates legion.
I was attacked in Jamaica St many years ago but the knife man suddenly found a more pressing other engagement, to get his nose fixed.
25

JayDeeTee,

20/07/2008 12:31:46
#2. Better still, round them all up and ship them off to Turkish jails. The problem will be solved, believe me.
26

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 20/07/2008 12:52:35
21 Horrible Cankers

Good morning, madam.

I enjoyed reading your posting because it appears you speak from experience at witnessing all this murder, mugging, and mayhem over the decades.

Glasgow is SUCH a glorious city in its architecture it is unfortunate that one may think twice about enjoying the buildings and squares and cobbled streets without the the thought of being mugged, raped or murdered by some binge-drinking teen high on drugs.

It's a wonder tourism is apparently up in Glasgow and, although Edinburgh has the Royal Mile and Princes Street and Edinburgh Castle I still prefer Glasgow - and not just because Canada's first Prime Minister - Sir John Alexander Macdonald - was born there. He was a brilliant orator, notorious drunk, and with Jean-Etienne Cartier, brought French and English toghether in Canada.

Why HAS Glasgow produced so many geniuses? Escapes me.

Have a great day relaxing with a refreshing wee dram or three accompanied by cucumber sandwiches and tarts.
27

monkey man,

20/07/2008 13:09:23
Glasgow positively enjoys and revels in its "aren't we hard and tough" attitude. Therefore why are they whimpering when they are quite rightly seen as knife-wielding chavs and brain-dead neds.?
28

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 20/07/2008 13:33:19
PEOPLE ARE SAYING GLASGOW IS BAD FOR KNIFE CRIME THAT PLACE DOWN SOUTH CALLED LONDON SEEMS A LOT MORE KNIFES BEING USED EVERY DAY AND A LOT MORE DEATHS IN THAT PLACE BY KNIFE OR BLADE
29

,

20/07/2008 14:35:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

poohtigger1964,

East Coast 20/07/2008 15:10:27
The figures for knife crime have always remained the same, Glasgow always gets hit hard over its image from years gone by. The prisons are too comfortable for criminals now, no deterrant whatsoever. Should be once you've committed a crime , you have no civil liberties, so they can forget running to the courts here or in Europe about abuse. Give them a shell of a building to accommodate, hole in the ground to piddle in, food delivered in a big slops lorry dished out by ladel, that might deter reoffenders. But still cant get the idea outta my head, comment made earlier, about all the fuss about knife crime being used to side track everyone away from other more important issues eg labour losing Glasgow east which they deserve to do as their candidate will earn £250,000 min. from being elected...nice ! and the usual nobody wants to discuss, Iraq, Afganistan, The con on the environment, G,Brown ...............
31

Whiskey,

20/07/2008 16:12:18
Just what has happened to this great country, often referred to as Scotland the Brave, to change it to more like Scotland the Depraved??
32

jett,

aden 20/07/2008 16:29:09
i remember seeing someone from the drug and sex cults who may be steelies near the advice shop the bridges. he uses boulders on the head. he was one of my sister's very young friends but not the youngest, she used to and might still deal drugs.
33

Media 1,

cape town 20/07/2008 16:29:53
If all the people on the dole were forced to work for their money, it would assist in riddning the country of its "giro taking scum"
Get them working, get them out their beds, get them cleaning graffiti of bus stops, get them sweeping streets and picking up dog sh!t. Get them washing busses, get them cleaning windows, get them off their ar$es and get them giving back to the community. Once they are out their beds and working for their money, it wont be long till they are looking for a real job. Pretty soon the knife crime will drop because the scum section will be smaller.
34

Radge from the West,

Glasgow 20/07/2008 16:56:02
#20..a neice from America spent a year at Strathclde University and lived on campus in the halls of residence.The fellow students were a huge mix of multi cultural.She loved Glasgow and Buchanan Street was her favourite place.It was her local main street and she mostly felt safe..you just had to be streetwise the same as any big city.Through her I found out that there is an alternative street crowd populating the city centre streets.Invisible to most folk passing through and mostly harmless I am sure the local police would be aware of what is going on.
Your daughter will be as safe in Glasgow as any big city,the university crowds have got their own social circles and places to go and if she sticks with that she will have lifetime memories.
The frustration with the above article is that the casualty figures come from the World Health Org and not were they should be coming from... the Scottish Government.
35

jett,

aden 20/07/2008 17:05:02
#33

you do not need a giro as an excuse or right to carry a knife, you can work and do the same, society has become more desperate by a multitude of reasons
36

,

20/07/2008 17:07:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

,

20/07/2008 17:20:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

ARP,

Scotland 20/07/2008 17:20:34
There is a simple, cheap and probably very effective punishment ready to hand if only someone had the courage to legislate it. Offer those convicted of assault again the person the opportunity of being a live organ donor, in return for a reduced prison sentence. There is a terrible need for live donors of kidneys, pancreas and liver - here is a chance for these criminals to repay society for their deeds. Having given a donation, they might be less inclined to risk resuming their crimina ways.
39

jett,

aden 20/07/2008 17:41:57
#38

just like china, catering for only those who can afford to pay of course.
40

jett,

aden 20/07/2008 17:42:28
any other business idealists out there?
41

Media 1,

cape town 20/07/2008 19:20:38
Horrible Cank

This problem is not isolated to Glasgow, they just suffer greater problems because theirs is the first city, the one with the bigger population, the subway, the many bus routes, the much bigger city centre, the most amount of night clubs and so on. The same problems exist in Wester Hailes, Niddrie, Muirhouse, Granton, Pilton, Sighthill, Broomhouse and the rest.
You also say that for these neds it is all about territory, identity and belonging. But I say it is about a life with no hope and a hand out system that keeps them down and out.
Cutting off their hand out system will not change them overnight, it will take about 10 years for new method to show results, but I would hazard a guess that you will have a much safer Scotland once you force people out of their beds every morning to earn their keep. Sweeping a street is no shameful thing, lying in your bed and living of the state is.
It is time to change the mindset in Scotland!
42

Miss Vickie in California,

20/07/2008 19:23:35
One thing that can be considered is to agressively hold the parents criminally and civilly responsible for the violet acts of their children. If illegal weapons are in a household the parents should be arrested as well. The parents should have to pay restitution to the victims no matter how long it takes to pay it all up.

Also, perhaps having public education include strong vocational training programs would give these young people something more to look forward to rather than the next fight.
43

Media 1,

cape town 20/07/2008 19:34:08
Miss Vickie

You have no idea what the British NED actually is. It has to be seen to be believed. You dont know what the giro clan are like, these people are scavangers of the highest order who come from families and communities who will take as many handouts as they can whilst stabbing you in the back for paying your taxes.
Holding the parents responsible is a good idea, but it isnt practical. Secondly, arresting the parents is futile because they will be arrested that week anyway on some other charge and then they will be out again to spread their scum and their filth.
What they need in Scotland is a paradigm shift in thinking. Even the schools are a disgrace, students look like they are on their way to a rock concert when you see them in the morning on the way to school. They curse, smoke and wear jewellery, they treat teachers like sh!t and get away with murder and then they go home to their sado parents who live on the dole. What do think is going to happen?
44

Skatedad,

home 20/07/2008 19:53:44
Blame everyone Government,school, poverty and social deprivation but not the real problem THE PARENTS!!!!!
45

Media 1,

cape town 20/07/2008 19:57:03
skatedad

Yes, we know its the parents. Parents against the belt, parents against the expulsion of the bad apples, parents who dont have jobs because the government offer them as many hand outs as they can handle.
Maybe if the government stopped offering them handouts they would be forced to get off their backsides and work for their money.
So yes it is the parents, with the assistance and the support of the government.
46

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 20/07/2008 19:58:23
We all know what has been going on in the UK for decades. Compare our GINI ration with that of Eire, the safest country in the EU, and yet is Celtic like us and has almost exactly the same population. Compare us with Denmark, officially the world's happiest population & the EU's 2nd safest country - once again almost the same size of population, living at the same latitude - but the GINI coefficient is much lower. What is the problem? A maldistribution of wealth. The post-WW2 tower blocks and housing schemes are a disgrace. We need to house and educate children properly, regardless of their parents. It will be better for all of us in the long run to spend more on decent housing and schools. Right now, a tiny number of extremely wealthy people - largely non-Scots - own most of our land. We owe it to ourselves to change this.
47

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 20/07/2008 20:09:17
And let's face it - "Fight Club" is a reality - there are many stupid young men with pent-up aggression and boundless energy, but nowhere to expend it. The Age of the Service Industry requires brainpower and skills, not canal-digging navvies. Almost all manual-labour tasks are better done by machines. So perhaps we need to find places in this world where these young men can still do good through brute force? And please DON'T suggest the military forces - they truly require and deserve young recruits with sufficient brainpower to cope with sophisticated weapons and information systems. Any ideas?
48

Gunn,

20/07/2008 22:08:47
#19 Fishermans Blues.

Okay, do away with the smoke screen theory, if you will. But answer me this - why is the Government making a big deal about knife crime now? Why now, when the problem is no greater than it was when they first came into office, or even ten years a go? Sure, knife crime is unacceptable at anytime, but why is not more unacceptable now that it was 10 years ago?

Consider also that, if young people are carrying knives out of fear, how many more will be carrying now that the Government has incited even more fear?! Westminster is not fixing the problem, it's making it worse.
49

Hickory,

US 20/07/2008 23:20:14
So, ye canno take my comments, heh? The man that stands with his fingers in his ears, stands on the track and canno hear the train commin'.
50

Anderman,

Victoria BC 21/07/2008 03:39:49
#23 and #34 I am grateful for your insight. Both my parents met at and graduated from Glasgow University in 1951 and shortly after married and emigrated. Although my own formal education took place here in Canada and in the US I have visited Glasgow many times, albeit not in the last ten years, and now my parents are thrilled at the idea of their grand-daughter attending to complete her Masters at their old alma mater but as I said the bleak news of violence in the city has caused us concern. Now I am somewhat relieved by your posts and for that I thank you.
51

mcbogtrotter,

mccalifornia 21/07/2008 20:36:52
# 42 you are an idiot! and if someone is unlucky enough to have you for a mother they have my condolences.
Parents need to have a tough hand but our children are not under our care 24/7 you do the best you can and hope for the best, what does a single mother do? or working parents that are trying to feed a family and are gone most of the day? use your head for something besides a hat rack.
This is a problem in all society's as we become more civilized and less apt to protect ourselves, there will always be someone who is outside the norm and they have to be delt with harshly period.
But as we become more and more civilized we think that we can rehabilitate these throwbacks truth is we cant time and time again that has been proven. So each of us has to keep one foot on either side of the line, I live in a city of 200,000 with 7 police officers on duty overnite now who do you think thay are going to protect? as we give up all of our rights we have to accept the knife or the gun hell we are so afraid of the penial system that we would rather be killed than protect ourselves iam afraid to say that it is pathetic.
52

Scottie,

South Africa 22/07/2008 13:47:34
Cardonald? But that used to be a good/"nice" area I think? Or were there parts of it that weren't so salubrious?
53

Scottie,

Newlands 22/07/2008 13:49:02
#46, well said!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.