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Heated debate as minister makes case for renewables



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First Minister's Questions: Salmond answers questions on the nuclear power issue.
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Published Date: 18 January 2008
SCOTLAND neither needs nor wants nuclear power stations, ministers claimed yesterday.
JIM MATHER, the energy minister, opened the setpiece debate on power by arguing that Scotland's needs could be met by non-nuclear means.

Mr Mather declared: "Our approach is clear – Scotland doesn't want or need new nuclear power. The facts are that we are already meeting a very large part of our energy needs from non-nuclear sources.

"We have massive potential for exploiting our significant renewable resources and we're also capable of reducing our reliance on fossil-fuel energy supplies, while making those clean."

Mr Mather also claimed research published yesterday by the Crown Estates indicated that a subsea cable down the east coast of the UK was economically viable, meaning renewable generation in Scotland could be more easily fed into population centres south of the Border.

"There's no energy gap; there will be no energy gap," Mr Mather insisted.

But LEWIS MACDONALD, for Labour, challenged this assumption.

He said: "When senior Scottish ministers argue that there is no energy gap, because over 90 per cent of energy consumption is met at a particular point in time by coal, oil, gas and renewables, and there is therefore no need to think about anything else, they are not just guilty of using selective statistics for their own ends."

Mr Macdonald said if the London government bridges the UK energy gap by the development of new nuclear power stations in the south of England, Scottish as well as English consumers will take electricity from the grid those power stations supply.

"So the SNP's portrayal of themselves as the great opponents of nuclear electricity is simply an illusion," he added.

"In fact by opting out of the Energy Bill, opting out of a common strategy for nuclear waste and declining to extend the principle of polluter-pays to nuclear power-station decommissioning, they are simply opting out of the real debate.

"They are also fundamentally wrong to suggest that the only energy or electricity that Scotland should produce should be the energy or electricity that Scotland will consume. They are guilty of talking down a major Scottish export industry and the jobs that go with it."

LIAM MCARTHUR, for the Liberal Democrats, said his party had made its opposition to nuclear power clear and that it was "unwanted, unsafe and uneconomic".

Mr McArthur told MSPs there was no "single, magic bullet" but options worth considering included clean coal, carbon capture and marine energy technologies.

"But as well as finding a resolution to the outstanding grid and transmission issues, more impetus must be given to efforts to bring forward the date by which this technology can start making a meaningful contribution to our energy mix," he said.

KENNY GIBSON, SNP MSP for Cunninghame North who argued the case for renewable energy, was challenged by Alex Johnstone, of the Conservatives, to say how he reacted to the decision to extend the lifespan of the Hunterston nuclear power station – and how he would react to any move to replace it with new nuclear generation on the site.

Mr Gibson said he had been "absolutely delighted" at the decision to extend its lifespan to 2016. "However, I have made it quite clear publicly – unlike my Labour MP, who shares my views but is reluctant to express them in the local press – that to spend more than a decade building a nuclear plant in order to generate electricity for 35-40 years, producing waste which lasts for thousands of years and will cost billions to decommission, is not appropriate," he said.

DAVID STEWART, Labour MSP for Highlands and Islands region, argued the case for hydro power and told MSPs: "Isn't it time for a hydro revolution?

"What work is being undertaken to develop the potential for new sites and developments? If the minister wants a campaign, can I suggest 'It's Scotland's water'?"

ROB GIBSON, SNP MSP for Highlands and Islands region, told MSPs: "The development of a Scottish energy strategy is central, to sit alongside the Scottish Government's approach to climate-change targets."

He added: "The security of supply that we can provide infinitely comes from the water, the air, the waves and the tides around our own shores."

Labour's JAMES KELLY, however, stressed the need for nuclear power to be part of Scotland's energy supply.

"It's essential we produce a secure energy policy that keeps the lights on, reduces consumption and carbon emissions and also tackles fuel poverty," the Glasgow Rutherglen MSP said.

"In that light, it's important that we have a balanced energy policy.

"Currently, in relation to electricity, the balance includes renewables, gas, coal and nuclear. That mix is important in order to protect us against future shortages and also changes in market conditions."

He added: "In terms of moving to the future, we shouldn't rule out any options. We have to consider what's required to meet Scotland's energy needs."

But ALISON MCINNES, a Lib Dem MSP for North East Scotland, spoke out against nuclear power. She told MSPs the UK government was wrong to press ahead with a new generation of nuclear power plants.

Instead, she said, the money invested in that should be put towards developing green-energy technology.

The full article contains 876 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 18/01/2008 00:37:46
Whilst the prospects for wind and wave power are thrilling there is a possible danger in over hyping the potential of renewables which are still in the early stages of development, in order to justify the Government's anti nuclear energy policy.
2

Richardinho,

18/01/2008 00:43:01
I'd urge everyone to watch the video of Alex Salmond's speech in the parliament regarding this.

I personally am greatly concerned about this issue as everyone should be. I am not against nuclear per se, but I can see the value in renewables.

I was a little concerned that the government's rejection of nuclear was driven by atavistic SNP party ideology rather than pragmatism, but his statement has done something to reassure me.
3

An Beal Bacht,

18/01/2008 00:53:56
Labour have lost this one as well. Thank god - Nuclear is so wrong for so many reasons.

'LIAM MCARTHUR, for the Liberal Democrats, said his party had made its opposition to nuclear power clear and that it was "unwanted, unsafe and uneconomic".'

The LibDems are waking up from a long horrible nightmare.
4

Richardinho,

18/01/2008 00:54:43
If we do go down the renewable route it has to be whole heartedly.
No more nimbies stopping wind farms being built.
5

,

18/01/2008 00:58:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

,

18/01/2008 01:00:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Royster,

18/01/2008 05:17:26
Massive potential is one thing, secure and stable supply is another. The SNP can't seem to distinguish one from the other.
8

David MacVicar,

web 18/01/2008 07:36:42
Both sides are giving half the story as is often the case. Lewis MAcDonald is correct in that there is likely to be an Energy Gap in certain scenarios.

He is wrong in stating "are not just guilty of using selective statistics for their own ends". Thats exactly what he just did!

Also he said "are not just guilty of using selective statistics for their own ends". The SNP has never said this AFAIK.

As I have said before, Scotland is gearing up to export more Energy South than ever before. Scotland needs a large overcapacity from renewables to ensure it can provide all our energy needs MOST of the time. Its not economic to shut down generation when its not required in Scotland so will be exported.

Labour are correct in saying that means Scotland will export some power from its neighbours (partly Nuclear Generated, thats the choice the UK made) its how the Grid works.

Scotland will be exporting far more Energy than now so their is no Net Energy Gap most of the time.

Since Scotland will be exporting Energy to renewables to England,we will be reducing Englands needs for other power sources, including Nuclear. Its another North South divide except:
- This time its a divide that benifits both (I have not seen a good argument that England can completely avoid Nuclear, but lets not pretend its LOW CO2 in the long term)
- This time Scotland has a policy to its own benefit and not a policy purely to benefit those in the South.

Finally, If some of Labour are now calling for Hydro use to be maximised....Why of why did the not do so (especially small scale) after the recommendations from their own inquiries when they were in 'power'?

9

David MacVicar,

web 18/01/2008 07:45:02
Sorry, in previous post, 2nd quote should have been:
Also he said"They are also fundamentally wrong to suggest that the only energy or electricity that Scotland should produce should be the energy or electricity that Scotland will consume"

"There's no energy gap; there will be no energy gap," Mr Mather insisted. This statement is deliberatly misleading also and totally depends if you look overall eg annually, or hour by hour.

A better question would be: Will Scotland need to import electricity from its neighbours some of the time? Also, what is the likely ratio of Export to Import?
10

Miss H,

18/01/2008 08:05:10
2 Richardino can I reassure you that the SNP is a very pragmatic party. If nuclear was necessary for Scotland we would support nuclear power. But it is not necessary, there are risks associated with it whatever people say and as Jim Mather pointed out the costs are unquantifiable.

11

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 18/01/2008 08:32:37
Neither wind turbines nor nuclear, please.

The government must sponsor submarine turbines with the same zeal and effectiveness that Germany sponsors photo voltaic.

Britons have always relied on the ocean.
12

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/01/2008 09:36:55
I have serious doubts about renewables meeting the energy gap - not just in engineering terms but also the environmental impact of the schemes that would be required.

One thing I have noticed about the renewable deabte is that it has tended to focus on large-scale energy production - I'd like to see more work put into smaller home-based initiatives. For example, it has been estimated that in some cities such as Dundee upto 60% of households could have their water heated through solar energy.

I'd also like far more research and development done on energy conservation - that could mean that there would not be an energy gap to plug in the first place.

In the short-run I don't believe nuclear can be ruled out - that does not necessarily mean building new power stations but extending the life of existing sttaions until such time that renewables and conservation have made up the energy gap.

What is ultimately required is a comprehensive review of energy policy that considers all factors including renewables, nuclear and energy conservation.

13

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 18/01/2008 09:37:20
Renewables at this time cannot meet consistent energy needs - (eg wind velocity can be too high or too low and so zero output). Denmark is plugged into the rest of the European grid, so variableness with wind speed isn't critical.

So wind power can only ever contribute a minor percentage to the Scotland. Dropping nuclear means a greater dependency on coal etc - which is fine by me since I'm not interested in CO2 emmissions.

14

AJM,

18/01/2008 09:45:32
Miss H I agree that the SNP has moved on manifesto commitments such as trams and sportscotland. But they are I think viewing any dilution of this one is a step too far, so we are back to it is an ideological point. Perhaps the SNP think that England will not let the lights go out in Scotland and will bail them out.
15

Miss H,

18/01/2008 09:54:19
12 Federalist

What is being discussed here is not energy - it is electricity. Energy is a much bigger issue.

Can I also provide you with some reassurance. The SNP is not completely stupid. Before we were elected policy was being developed by independent energy experts such as Professor Stephen Salter. All your points are valid and are actually part of the plan. It is not the SNP that presents the energy debate in terms of windfarms versus nuclear because it is not like that.

Now that we are in government we can draw on all the technical expertise of the industry as well as academia. There is no way that we are going to set ourselves up for a situation where Scotland will suddenly run out of energy at the same time that we are asking people to take the next step to full independence. That is not part of the plan.
16

The Strategist,

18/01/2008 10:11:26
#15 Miss H

Correct.. In actual fact the really big issue is liquid fuel supply not generating electricity. We can do the electricity generating thing provided the investment is available which of course being Scotland is always doubtful. But assuring liquid fuel supply is something that is concerning all of us in the energy industry.

Biofuel is turning out to be a bit of a damp squid because it's being realised we will never be able to produce enough of it, it's going to be too expensive and probably ecologically very damaging. Even so called second and third generation biofuels are looking decidedly "iffy" now.

Finding alternatives is difficult. Hydrogen if often talked about but the lunatics running the asylum are under investing in that as well. Hydrogen is also an agenda dominated by the fuel cell lobby which is a very interesting technology but who is prepared to pay for the cost of completely changing the automotive supply chain?

Interestingly, there is now more talk about some of the old fuels particularly methanol. Methanol is high octane and still used by the Champ Car Championship in the USA.
17

livilion,

livingston 18/01/2008 10:19:28
Hunterston A still hasn't been cleaned up and it could be another fifty years before it is.
These plants have a usefull life of about 25 years before the physics of intense radiation take their toll on the materials keeping them safe and secure.

Hunterston B is now becoming due to be taken out of service, or to become increasingly unreliable.

Torness these days spends more time being repaired that it does producing electricity and can no longer be relied upon for baseload generation.

So it takes between 85 to 100 years to clean these plants up, goodness only knows how long their spent fuel will have to be guarded and kept out of the environment and 'the wrong hands', and their usefull lives are only about a third of that sort of timescale.

We could be looking at clusters of redundant nuclear sites costing hundreds of £billions to maintain.

Yet £2bn is too much to pay to connect renewable sources off the West Coast to the National Grid?

On the other hand, what is it about wind turbines that they have to be painted white and stick out on the landscape like a sore thumb?

Why not paint them the same drab colours as electricity pylons, telephone poles, cellphone masts or a 'Wimbledon green' that isn't catching your attention from 20 miles away?
18

Phil o Brian,

18/01/2008 10:23:35
I think everyone agrees that renewables are the preferred solution. However, are they anywhere near ready? I noted that with the power outages of nuclear last year, that Scotland filled the gap with coal. Not the best solution.
Do we not need a mid term strategy that switches off coal and reduces gas, whilst finding out the technoligies that work. If I understand the numbers correctly, renewables cost twice as much to produce electricty as conventional systems.
Whats wrong with promoting local renewable schemes? Geothermal looks very promising. We could also save transporting power round the grid and losing 25% on the way.
Also, re the comment on Hydro. We looked at investing in a start up company to do small sacle Hydro in Scotland. There is a lot of research on it produced over the years. Most of the projects still to be done are either a) too small b) too remote or c) run dry and only produce at certain times of the year.
19

Alan B,

18/01/2008 10:28:12
#16 I think u are abit negative about Biofuels. Although ur last sentense seems to think there is some milage in it. Biofuels will never be the full answer but part of the solution in the medium term atleast. From what i have read the US could produce about 20% of it transport fuels from biofuel (ethanol). The EU has changed its cap policy over that last 20yrs to stop over production. Much of that production may be needed to be brought back online.

Hybrid cars will also be part of the answer. It is disappointing that the eu have done so little to promote this and have left it to the japanese and us consumers. The next prius version was talking about 113mpg. If 100mpg was made the minimum we should be able to reduce our transport fuel consumption by about 2/3. This would mean that biofuels would not be far of doing the rest.

One of the big supermarkets was talking about using electric vehicles. If this was roled out for all industry would reduce our pertol/deisel consumption.

Once hybrid vechicles become mainsteam then the performance is bound to improve. It also leads to options such as plug in hybrids where biofuels could end up as just a back up.

There is a technological revolution happening it is just governments are not really setting targets that would make this commercially available in a quicker time scale.
20

David MacVicar,

web, 18/01/2008 10:30:38
15 Miss H,

I agree with what you say but both Salmond and Mather are misleading the public with some of their statements (just as other parties are with their own statements).

They should teel it like it is. Scotland will be overproducing and exporting most of the time but not all of the time. This is no big Risk and I think the public are capable of unterstanding that and drawing the correct conclusions.

Actions speak louder than words. The upgrades to the 400KV interconnectors are in planning. The upgrades are for 2-way transmission = More export + more import.

I do have some concerns which are not covered well in existing documents, namely:

a)Financial risk of renewables based on UK policy on price selling to grid verses distance of supply.
b)Amazingly Scotland is currently not the most attaractive place for certain renewables in the UK due to planning restrictions in Scotland.
c)Also, most studies use 2020 as a benchmark but the situation between 2015 - 2020 is not clear.
* Tare general issues that would also apply to Nuclear, except c) since there would have been no New Nuclear till 2020 at the earliest in Scotland anyway.
21

livilion,

livingston 18/01/2008 10:35:03
18 Phil o Brian,18/01/2008 10:23:35

The Americans and Australians are ploughing money and resources into making coal 'the best solution'.

This country has centuries of secure coal reserves under our feet and we can still talk of 'lights going out'.

Gasification of hydrocarbons(coal, oil and natural gas) is a clean fuel source with huge potential.

If the UK or Scotland had invested the hundreds of £billions that nuclear has had we could be leading the world in a technology that the likes of India and China would cut your hands off to get today.

But then again I suppose hydrogen fueled power stations are no good for producing material for h-bombs.
22

livilion,

livingston 18/01/2008 10:45:30
19 Alan B,18/01/2008 10:28:12
What are your views on the various sources of biofuels?
I heard recently that the difference between eg sugar cane and maize as the raw material is like night and day.

ie The energy used in production of some fuel crops make their benefit to the carbon cycle dubious to say the least.
23

Peter,

Looking over the heads of Unionist dwarfs 18/01/2008 11:10:12
I am amazed that Lewis MacDonald could string a coherent sentence together given his track record - where are the 1200 NHS dentists from Poland, Lewis? - his best use is as a bio fuel.

When is Wendy having her collar felt?
24

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 18/01/2008 11:22:13
'But ALISON MCINNES, a Lib Dem MSP for North East Scotland.'

This is galling, was Hamish ever taught that you do not start a sentence with a preposition?

Brian Wilson was a hoot on Newsnicht last night, wearing his two hats (directorships in both nuclear and renewable companies) and claiming that the proposed Crown Estate pipeline was a great example of unionism at work! All the time trying desperately to find something to disagree with the SNP Governments welcome response to the survey.
25

Rachel Young,

Edinburgh 18/01/2008 11:28:44
The National Audit Office says nuclear liabilities accrued by the government to date include £70bn for existing waste and £5.1bn in bailouts for British energy.

Perhaps if the renewables industry - research, development and construction - had enjoyed these levels of subsidies for the last 10 or 20 years, then the kinds of technologies we'd have now would be significantly more efficient. Instead, because the Labour government dragged its heels for so long we are now lagging behind and renewables are still underperforming.

And what's this nonsense about nuclear being 'clean'? Nuclear is definitely not ‘carbon free’ as a lot of people suggest. During construction and operation it will produces less CO2 than a coal or gas fired station, but if you take into account the whole life cycle, ores have to be mined, uranium has to be extracted and processed into fuel rods which then have to be transported to power stations. The building and decommissioning of plants have to be taken into account... It’s estimated that Australia’s largest uranium mine contributes 8% of Southern Australia’s CO2 emissions.

The Government’s own independent watchdog, the Sustainable Development Commission, has concluded that the reductions in CO2 that nuclear can make are pretty limited. Even doubling our nuclear capacity will only reduce emissions by 8%.

Uranium isn’t an infinite resource either. At the current rate of use, it’s estimated that there is only 50 or 60 years worth of high grade ore left. Lower Grade ores are harder to extract and refine. That doesn’t even take into account the ethics of uranium mining – the fact that the industry has been blamed for displacement of indigenous peoples, contamination and degradation of the environments around mines, and increased cancer rates in mine workers.

The arguments about finance are long and protracted – if you want to see actual costs per kWh then check out the finance section of this briefing - http://www.cnduk.org/pages/bi
26

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 18/01/2008 11:29:22
Bio fuels, clean coal, nuclear. etc. are not renewables. Each takes a toll out of the environment.

More importantly, though, there is no need for them.

We are surrounded by ample renewables.

Each home can be adequately heated by bore-hole sourced heat pumps. Each home can be adequately (but not extravagantly)lit by photo-voltaics and batteries and hydro. Industry can be powered from submarine turbines. Air ships can be lifted by hydrogen/helium and electrically driven. Ships are already experimenting with forms of sails.

The answers are out there already!
27

Rachel Young,

Edinburgh 18/01/2008 11:33:20
(Sorry about the cut off link - that should have read as follows -

http://www.cnduk.org/pages/binfo/npwr06.pdf - or if you think a CND briefing will be too biased, check out the pages of the Rocky Mountain Institute - http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid305.php - it’s fair to say that nuclear industry estimates have been very optimistic. Some wind farms are already producing energy at less than 2p/kWh. Best estimates for nuclear have it producing energy at somewhere around 2 – 2.5p/kWh – that’s working at high load factors and with long lasting power stations – neither of which can be guaranteed.

Any nuclear power stations we start to build now aren’t likely to generate any power until 2020 at the earliest – in that time carbon emissions will continue to rise at a scary rate – and the funding will be going into nuclear instead of genuinely sustainable measures like energy efficiency, and developing moer efficient and effective renewables (you save seven times as much CO2 by investing the same amount of money in energy efficiency rather than nuclear).

All that is before you even get into the questions of safety or waste...

It's time to make a stand and start putting some real cash into genuinely clean technologies with enormous potential - surely any fool can see that.
28

livilion,

livingston 18/01/2008 12:36:24
#26 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 18/01/2008

Point taken, but the set up costs for these renewables would on the face of it put most folk off.

Coal is there in abundance, 200 years in the Forth Basin alone, and 4 or 5 times that again under the North Sea according to the Norwegians.

The technology is there to produce electricity from hydrogen(gasified coal and natural gas) at competitive rates and with a potential UK reduction of 36% (90% of 40%)in carbon output available, say by 2011-15

The renewables argument partly rests on the finite supply of hydrocarbons and uranium and the need to produce credible alternative energy sources.

However with about 1,000 years supply of coal on our doorstep, that need not be the main reason for persuing renewable electricity generation.

Remember hydrocarbons produce a lot more than just energy to make power turbines run.
eg the pc you are using now largely derives from hydrocarbons in its plastics etc.

I would suggest the total life costs of nuclear powered elecricity generation(carbon & cash) should be making that solution non-viable, but then nuclear power stations were never really about creating electricity 'too cheap to meter' was it?

Tony Blair and Scotlands Labour Executive's conversion to nuclear power came on the same road to Damascus that revealed the wisdom of abandoning their long held CND beliefs and embracing the one true deterent.

My compromise would be go for clean coal and gas utilising carbon capture meantime, use the carbon credits and profits won this way to subsidise research into promoting renewables technology and cost savings to eventually develop the renewables market to critical mass.
29

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 12:57:38
livilion (28): "but then nuclear power stations were never really about creating electricity 'too cheap to meter' was it?"

Certainly not in the 1950s, but a quick calculation implies that the primary purpose of nuclear power really has not been plutonium production for some time. A fission bomb requires roughly 3 kg of Plutonium on average, whilst a 1 GW nuclear reactor produces roughly 200 Kg of Plutonium per year, enough for some 40 5-kg bombs per year. In other words, we've had a large Plutonium production surplus for decades, from the point of view of bomb production.
30

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 13:08:26
Rachel Young (25): "The National Audit Office says nuclear liabilities accrued by the government to date include £70bn for existing waste and £5.1bn in bailouts for British energy."

Let's put these figures in context: current nuclear liabilities total roughly twice the money committed to Northern Rock since the summer, but will be financed over several decades. For another comparison, it's roughly twice the annual defence budget, whilst the NHS budget for 2007-8 is £90 billion, rising to £110 billion by 2010-11; see the Treasury report here

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/4/7/pbr_csr07_annexd2_197.pdf

Why, then, do you believe that £70 billion, amortised over several decades, is so expensive?
31

kimba,

18/01/2008 13:16:14
As prime minister of Britain, wish gordy would stop giving in to the snp,if scotland needs nuclear power to sustain it,s needs he should just order it,end of story.
32

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 13:27:06
Rachel Young (25): "£5.1bn in bailouts for British energy."

If this figure is correct, to date, then it's tiny. For comparison, the current yeary cost of incapacity benefit is £12.5 billion; see

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7173453.stm



Rachel Young (27): "and the funding will be going into nuclear instead of genuinely sustainable measures like energy efficiency, and developing moer efficient and effective renewables"

This need not be true at all. If energy costs are rising, due to fossil fuel prices, then the cost of all electricity increases, so implying an economic incentive for energy efficiency and more efficient renewables.

33

livilion,

livingston 18/01/2008 13:36:58
31 Fairfax,18/01/2008 13:08:26

No it's chickenfeed, petty cash if you will.I can't figure how the Treasury gets itself in such a tizzy when their books don't balance by a few £bns.

How long do you reckon we might keep Scotland running on this amount of pocketmoney?

More particularly, what difference do you think we might've made to clean hydrocarbon technology, carbon capture or renewables for this paltry sum?
34

 Ayrshire Scot™,

18/01/2008 13:36:59
31 On top of the capital debt write off and operational subsisidies pre privatisation?
35

livilion,

livingston 18/01/2008 13:39:41
32 kimba,18/01/2008 13:16:14
And you'll be volunteering your back yard to keep the spent fuel and the people to keep it safe for however many centuries it takes?
36

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

18/01/2008 13:41:59
"#15 Miss H,18/01/2008 09:54:19
12 Federalist

What is being discussed here is not energy - it is electricity. Energy is a much bigger issue."

Which is precisely the point I am making - you cannot look at electricity generation in isolation - it must be examined in the context of a wider energy policy - something that no government seems prepared to do.
37

kimba,

18/01/2008 13:50:42
ayrshire,heard from your mate BP,HOPE HE HAS A GOOD JOB.
38

Rachel Young,

18/01/2008 13:54:13
#31 and #33 - let's compare like with like - energy with energy. Knowing what nuclear spending is in comparison to defence or benefits is pretty irrelevant.

The UK Research and Development budget for renewables for 2001 -2004 was £18.5 million per year - plus £5-10 million from Research Councils. This was little more than the £16.6m yearly average spent over the previous 25 years and is tiny in comparison with the average £230m per year spent researching nuclear power over the same period...

39

 Ayrshire Scot™,

18/01/2008 14:02:50
38 LOL. ROTFL. How goes your "law suit" against him?
40

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

18/01/2008 14:21:46
The quality of the discussion in this webpage is far above that in the westminster parliament and the BBC and it is to the credit of the SNP government that they have created a situation where such well informed correspondents are making their contribution to the nuclear debate.I think well of the contribution by miss H in particular,she writes a lot of sense.I have learned one or two things myself from the correspondents.I am very pleased that Professor Salter has made an input into the SNP government policy as one of your correspondents mentions.With due respect to those who are supportive of nuclear power stations,let me suggest that the 'nuclear power plant GRAIL'(explained below)is one that they could now leave and embark on the 'green energy gold QUEST'. I have some sympathy for those who have been taken in by the Grail but in the 21century we need a new paradigm.Nuclear power is essentially a failed technology from the 20 century.
41

Colin, Glasgow,

18/01/2008 14:31:00
Miss H #15
"Can I also provide you with some reassurance. The SNP is not completely stupid. Before we were elected policy was being developed by independent energy experts such as Professor Stephen Salter. All your points are valid and are actually part of the plan. It is not the SNP that presents the energy debate in terms of windfarms versus nuclear because it is not like that."

I can't accept your reassurance because the work that the SNP policy is based upon is fundamentally questionable. The so-called "Scottish Energy Review" which the SNP commissioned, is wantonly skewed against nuclear power, and is dangerously optimistic about the realistic ability of renewables to deliver.

As an example of the anti-nuclear bias within the document, its main discussion on the CO2 emissions from nuclear power is based largely on controversial study authored by Storm van Leeuwen. This study claimed that the CO2 emissions from nuclear are in excess of 100g CO2 per kWh, and that the emissions would increase to a level similar to gas-fired electricity as uranium ore quality reduces. However the Storm van Leeuwen report is the only study of its kind to reach this conclusion, and it has been roundly criticised in peer review. All other studies (of which there are dozens) conclude that nuclear power has low CO2 emissions (sometimes less than 10g per kWh). This is accepted by the Sustainable Development Commission, who are hardly pro-nuclear, and it is also accepted by the IPCC which is why they endorse nuclear power as a suitabel technology to combat climate change.

The worrying fact is that the SNP's "Scottish Energy Review" made no serious attempt to balance the anti-nuclear views of the likes of van Leeuwen (even though the opposing view is supported by the majority of research in this area). The review cannot be trusted as a valid basis for formulating energy policy. For the SNP to do so was, to use your own words, completely stupid. It will come back to bite them.
42

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

18/01/2008 14:34:03
4 elements of the nuclear power station Grail.
Believers in the grail promise to achieve 4 things in building a new nuclear power station.
1 To build the nuclear power station on time.
2 To build a nuclear power station on budget.
3 To build it in such a way that no release of nuclear radiation into the environment will occur and that the plant will safely operate without health damaging effects.
4 That when the plant is old the sight will be returned
to something similar to when the station was started.
This is what I mean by believers in the nuclear Grail.

All these promises are made frequently by believers in the grail.IN PRACTISE THE GRAIL IS NEVER ACHIEVED,IT IS A FANTASY.IN THE NIGHTS TEMPLAR OF THE NUCLEAR GRAIL THESE BELIEFS ARE REPORTED TO OTHER BELIEVERS AS TRUTH BUT NEVER HAVE ALL BEEN ACHIEVED. I am embarking on a personal Quest to build some green energy capacity.
43

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 14:41:28
livilion (34): "How long do you reckon we might keep Scotland running on this amount of pocketmoney?"

The statistic is not for the small nation of Scotland, but for the large trillion pound GDP economy of Britain. Taking the cost pro rata for Scotland, it's a lifetime cost of £7 billion for Scotland. For comparison, Scotland's incapacity benefit bill is approximately £1.5 billion per annum.
44

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 14:48:08
Rachel Young (39): "#31 and #33 - let's compare like with like - energy with energy. Knowing what nuclear spending is in comparison to defence or benefits is pretty irrelevant."

It is comparing like with like: we have the economic choice of financial allocation from our total budget. We could, if we so wished, spend all of our defence funding on benefits, or, indeed, reduce our benefits bill. After all, if we were to cease nuclear power and weapons production of any form, then the money freed from this budget area would be spread across the financial spectrum.

45

,

18/01/2008 14:49:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

The Strategist,

18/01/2008 15:03:01
#39 Rachel Young

You're close enough with those R&D figures which are of course tiny but most of that was of course wasted because little of the outcome was commercialised and in fact a lot of the then DTI money went to oversea companies operating in the UK.. EON, Alstom etc ... as indeed it is now.

The problem is very clear.. Insufficient private sector funding is coming forward from the funding community (banks, VCs etc) to develop a reasonable scale renewables industry in Scotland. In fact one of the very few Scottish VC recently stated its intention not to invest in renewables technology because in essence it didn't provide a fast enough return.

This is not a nation that can rely on its financial services companies to support its industry.
47

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 15:08:35
Rachel Young (39): "This was little more than the £16.6m yearly average spent over the previous 25 years and is tiny in comparison with the average £230m per year spent researching nuclear power over the same period..."

On further consideration, I would argue that your comparison is not like-with-like: you are comparing the costs of research into several areas, none of which require large capital expenditure at the research stage, with the capital required to implement technology on a nationwide scale.
48

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

18/01/2008 15:28:00
The most recent example of the failure of the nuclear Grail is in Finland where the most recent new build in Europe of a nuclear station is already in breach of Grail claim 1 and 2, #43 apparently it is already two years behind and massively over budget. The French head of EDF energy has talked nonsense on the BBC recently claiming that French power stations are not subsidized ie they are economic. This is a lie because the French nuclear company has the largest debt of any company in the world. They will never be able to pay it back. What is this if it is not a hidden subsidy?If you let me borrow 500 Billion Euros I could also produce lots of so called cheap electricity!The snp govt energy review is a sensible well thought out policy and is more appropriate to the green energy treasure Quest we need to embark on in the 21century. Believers in the grail are losing their power. The largest industrial country in W.Europe ie Germany is phasing out nuclear energy and building steadily more green energy capacity.WE can all do this ourselves by supporting the snp review and if we can afford it,by installing solar heating panels personally and other forms of microgeneration as well as conserving energy through insulation. WE should ignore Browns plans and build our own green energy future.I calculate that my solar panel I will be installing this year from www.solartwin.com /.co.uk will pay for itself in 8 years. IF my power company supports new build nuclear I will switch to ecotricity. The nuclear grail is dying the green energy quest is growing.Claims in support of the Grail have been repeated for 50 years and never achieved,you show me one nuclear power plant anywhere in the world that has achieved the grail and I will eat my hat.Why is the Finnish plant so much behind and over budget?It is time these nuclear con men are exposed.Why is the most succesful industrial country in Europe a country that actually is a net exporter of industrial goods anti nuclear and building
49

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

18/01/2008 15:31:52
completing sentence in 49#. ...and building green energy capacity.ie Germany. Answer.Because this is a good idea.
50

Danepiper,

USA 18/01/2008 15:33:24
Anti-Nuke, Anti-Wind, Anti-Farming, Anti-AquaCulture, Not in My Back Yard!
Starve and Freeze to Death in the Dark.
Stupidity is it's own reward.
51

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

18/01/2008 15:37:53

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,
18/01/2008 14:34:03 removed spelling mistake in ie 4 site not sight
4 elements of the nuclear power station Grail.
Believers in the grail promise to achieve 4 things in building a new nuclear power station.
1 To build the nuclear power station on time.
2 To build a nuclear power station on budget.
3 To build it in such a way that no release of nuclear radiation into the environment will occur and that the plant will safely operate without health damaging effects.
4 That when the plant is old the site will be returned
to something similar to when the station was started.
This is what I mean by believers in the nuclear Grail.

All these promises are made frequently by believers in the grail.IN PRACTISE THE GRAIL IS NEVER ACHIEVED,IT IS A FANTASY.IN THE NIGHTS TEMPLAR OF THE NUCLEAR GRAIL THESE BELIEFS ARE REPORTED TO OTHER BELIEVERS AS TRUTH BUT NEVER HAVE ALL BEEN ACHIEVED. I am embarking on a personal Quest to build some green energy capacity.
52

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

18/01/2008 15:55:46
IN ANSWER TO 52#I am not an SNP activist, I merely support many of their objectives. SNP activist implies I am a member of the SNP who is active. IN fact I am not a member of the SNP but make no secret of my support for many of the well thought out policies of the SNP and look forward with 100% confidence to them achieving their goals of Scotland becoming an independent none-nuclear country building a prosperous green energy future.I can understand your error from some of the statements I have made but really I am simply interested in telling the truth,admittedly with my own biases.My independent judgment is that the SNP energy review is vastly superior to what I have heard coming out of London.I say this as someone who studied researched and taught physics for 25 years. My latest article concerning the physics collapse of the twin towers is published in the Scientific medical network "review" published by the Scientific medical network winter edition 2007 which tells you a bit more about me. Good luck
53

kimba,

18/01/2008 15:57:54
40.LOL, you think this is a joke,HE POSTED A PHOTO ON THE INTERNET OF MY SISTER AND MYSELF WITHOUT CONSENT,WHAT DO YOU THINK.
54

kimba,

18/01/2008 16:04:40
AYRSHIRE. WE NOW HAVE HIS ADDRESS,going very well.
55

Colin, Glasgow,

18/01/2008 16:07:18
#53 Dr Sutcliffe and the holy grail:

As regard point 1 & 2 of your "grail", developing countries are getting on with building nuclear power stations on time and within budget. This one in India has been built for less than one-fiftieth of the cost of a western plant.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/newNuclear/270207New_units_at_home_new_opporunities_abroad.shtml

As regards, point 3, no accident at a civil nuclear powerstation in the UK has ever caused a radiation death. The COMARE report in the UK concluded that there was no link between cancers and the normal operation of nuclear power stations. This particular aspect of your grail, "operating without health damaging effects", has been achieved many times over in the past 50 years. (In contrast, by opposing nuclear power you unwittingly promote fossil fuel use, which does kill thousands in the UK every year, via air pollution.)

With regards to point 4, the US has decommissioned over 30 reactors. For example:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/wasteRecycling/Connecticut_Yankee_decommissioning_complete_271107.shtml
It is perfectly feasible to return a site to greenfield.
56

Fairfax,

18/01/2008 16:22:41
Dr Malcolm Sutcliffe (49): "The largest industrial country in W.Europe ie Germany is phasing out nuclear energy and building steadily more green energy capacity."

Its' true that this is a German aim, but they're still overwhelmingly a fossil fuel generation, with a substantial nuclear generation minority. Consider, for example, their country profile on EarthTrends:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_library/country_profiles/ene_cou_826.pdf

Germany is a particularly interesting case because of their surplus fossil fuel electricity generation capacity, inherited partly from the former East Germany: it's this plant that has been supplying power to France.
57

Geomac 1,

Kinross 18/01/2008 16:23:10
Could I respectfully suggest that we all get out and buy ouselves a portable generator.
With the current bunch of numpties at Holyrood, it's an absolute certainty that the lights will go out - and soon!!
58

kimba,

18/01/2008 16:26:13
60. Good idea.
59

Geomac 1,

Kinross 18/01/2008 16:26:50
By the way, please note that the CAPITAL cost - per effective MW - is twice as much for wind as for new build nuclear (Royal Soc figures) - waste disposal for nuclear closes the cost gap but not by much.
Also, as Brian Wilson admitted on Newnight last night, wind energy developers get more from subsidies than they get from selling the electricity!!!
60

Colin, Glasgow,

18/01/2008 16:30:19
#49 Dr Sutcliffe says "The largest industrial country in W.Europe ie Germany is phasing out nuclear energy and building steadily more green energy capacity."

Well, to be precise by 2020 they are planning to phase out the nuclear powerstations that provide 30% of their electricity, and at the same time build new renewables that will supply 27% of their electricity. The obvious problem is that the renewables will not, in this case, be saving any CO2 at all. In fact their emissions are likely to increase and they are already higher than the UK (per capita). To compound their error, they also subsidise their coal industry by 2 billion euros per year. At least they subsidise renewables by 4 billion euros per year. (Meanwhile, their nuclear plants, which have paid off their capital, make a clear profit of 1 million euros per _day_, and are accused of profiteering...)

The Economist has more to say on this.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9595481

You are correct about the similarity between the German and SNP approaches. Neither make sense.

Instead we should maintain/replace nuclear, and use renewables to displace coal. Simple.
61

kimba,

18/01/2008 16:46:33
PEAT! we are not in the middle ages.
62

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 18/01/2008 16:48:44
So where does the SNP statements square with their colleague Bruce Crawfords opposition to another wind farm in the Stirling area, Is this just a case of NIMBY ism and a desire to appear popular to the opponents of the plan, or what?

I suggest we ask the Scottish electorate - would you prefer twenty "ugly" wind farms or a couple of nuclear power stations generating highly toxic waste to be built on our lovely countryside?

63

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 18/01/2008 16:52:39
Can he dig it? Yes he can.


Where are these photos of Kimba and her sister? I've got half a tumescent knobsworth of viagara stoating about in my system and I need something to deter me from further marital ghastliness.
64

Macgille leabhar,

Aberdeenshire 18/01/2008 17:10:32
67 kimba.
You may well be in "the middle ages" if one of Broon's nuclears goes phut as has happened.
Leave nuclear well alone untill such time as the technology is fully developed. As it is now it is like owning a car and having to store the waste from maintenace in your garage for ever more.
Yet that is the main commercial attraction in nuclear . Disposal is a never ending gravytrain.A bit of scaremongering will get unlimited taxpayers money out of the government of the day for "increase safety measures"

65

kimba,

18/01/2008 17:11:01
71. The only people who are "mad" are the snp,kids doing homework by candlelight!
66

kimba,

18/01/2008 17:13:11
72. We are in the 21st century,get real, England we be miles ahead of scotland.
67

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 18/01/2008 17:20:10
#70 - I'd rather have an ugly view from my back window than toxic waste leaching into the water supply for millions of years - or is this the legacy you would prefer to leave your offspring?

As for Torness - its not painted horizon blue, thats the glow off the uranium you see. Get real!
68

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 18/01/2008 17:21:26
Kimba, where is this photograph? I MUST see it!!!
69

kimba,

18/01/2008 17:26:03
76. You really aren't getting this are you,we are in the process of a law suit.
70

Macgille leabhar,

Aberdeenshire _ the land of prosperty 18/01/2008 17:27:51
74 LOL
Why can't I get into my local pub for your fellow countrymen all saying how glad they were to escape?
PS
Thanks for giving some of our village idiots therapeutic employment at Westminster. We do appreciate it.
71

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 18/01/2008 17:29:36
#77 Really, why?

Do fill me in, spare none of the gory details.
72

kimba,

18/01/2008 17:36:04
79. non of your business, if you break the law you will be punished.
73

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 18/01/2008 17:46:16
#81 Bof, tu parle francaise, ma petite bachi bazouke.

If you gargle lard chances are you'll get fat.

You are the law, Judge Kimba.
74

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 18/01/2008 17:48:39
#80 - naw, you are way wide of the mark sonny boy! Are you ready for your next lesson by the way as it seems your only view on life is the one out your bedroom windae?
75

Colin, Glasgow,

18/01/2008 17:52:32
Macgille leabhar #72
"Leave nuclear well alone untill such time as the technology is fully developed. As it is now it is like owning a car and having to store the waste from maintenace in your garage for ever more."

I think you are missing how much damage is caused by the "waste" from fossil fuel; and how little waste is created by nuclear power. Currently cars burning petrol and powerstations burning coal and gas release air pollution in the form of NOx, SO2 and particulates. This air pollution causes tens of thousands of premature deaths in the UK every year. (300,000 deaths in Europe per year; millions of deaths worldwide). In London about 1 person in 35 will die from the effects of air pollution. Note, I'm not even considering climate change issues here.

On the other hand, nuclear power creates very small amounts of waste. The amounts are so small that, from the very beginning, it has been possible to manage all the waste so that it never need pollute the biosphere nor cause a hazard to health. This would be impossible for fossil fuel. The amount of high level waste created by the electricity used by an average French family (80% nuclear) throughout their whole life is about the size of a golfball. The whole inventory of high level waste produced by the UK nuclear industry in its entire 50 year lifetime would fit in a room 11 metres cubed. In contrast with fossil fuel, this waste has never killed anybody.

The fact that nuclear waste is concentrated and manageable is a positive advantage over fossil fuel.

76

Danepiper,

18/01/2008 18:23:03
#87
Where in the world do those numbers come from? 65 million is a large enough number to attract the world's attention. Haven't seen any Mushroom Clouds around, have you? Other than Chernobyl (very poor reactor design) where have all the deaths come from? Proof, not pseudo science or imagination.
77

 Ayrshire Scot™,

18/01/2008 18:33:30
55 Kimba you dribbling morbid obesity

no one posted a picture of you. Everyone has more taste. Who would want to see a pic of some bloated 15 stone hairy oxstered harridan?

How do did you get his address, LOL. You said last week you had serevd a summons on him (his crime: you being a fat minger) now you just got his address?

78

Van (not white) Diesel,

18/01/2008 19:00:54
#93 Meths
Or possibly a Pedro driven car.
79

Carlung,

Haddington 18/01/2008 19:01:44
As a civil engineer, I am amazed that only 8% of the potential Hydro-electricity generation in Scotland is being utilised. this form of generation is virtually carbon free and totally renewable. Go for it Scotland, and be a completely energy independent country
80

Colin, Glasgow,

18/01/2008 19:09:40
Methalions #87 quotes "Pollution from nuclear energy and weapons programmes up to 1989 will account for 65 million deaths."

In that case we're in trouble. The proportion of radiation we receive from weapons fallout is about 0.2% of our background exposure. The exposure from the nuclear industry is about 0.03% in the UK.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/radiation/publications/hpa_rpd_reports/2005/hpa_rpd_001.pdf

If that tiny proportion from weapons and nuclear power causes 65 million deaths, then background radiation will kill everybody on the planet several times over.

Seriously, even if the effects of radiation exposure were as suggested in your article (and mainstream health phys