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HBOS: The questions that must be answered



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Published Date: 19 September 2008
1 How did Scotland lose its oldest banking institution and why was more not done to prevent it happening?
The Bank of Scotland has been around since 1695, but now its whole future and identity is in doubt. Two previous episodes of "short selling" – essentially, making money by deliberately forcing down a company's share price – had brought stocks to th
eir knees and smashed the bank's rights issue, yet the crisis was not tackled. HBOS also had high exposure to mortgage markets and, amid fears of falling house prices, there was a loss of confidence.

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: The government, the FSA and the financial markets.

2 Why was action not taken earlier to prevent short sellers hijacking a sound financial institution?

Fears about short selling (selling without owning the shares) have been around for some time, and Gordon Brown yesterday said he had had concerns about "irresponsible behaviour" and the need for reform for a while, but it was only last night that the Financial Services Authority finally acted to outlaw it in the UK – too little, too late for HBOS. Short selling involves a concerted effort to force down the share price of a company.

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: The Financial Services Authority, the Treasury and the Bank of England.

3 Why has the FSA been so ineffectual as the crisis unfolded?

On Wednesday morning, the FSA said HBOS was still "a well-capitalised bank that continues to fund its business in a satisfactory way" – but Alistair Darling said yesterday that without the merger the outlook was "very bleak indeed… We were on to their (HBOS's) problem for several weeks. It didn't just suddenly happen…" Questions are now being asked about whether the FSA needs a major overhaul to stop this happening again.

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: The Treasury, FSA and HBOS.

4 When did the talks begin to put together the Lloyds TSB takeover – and were any alternatives on the table?

There are differing explanations of when things started – six weeks or just a few days ago? The versions of the Lloyds TSB bosses and the Prime Minister appeared initially to differ. It is unclear if there was any attempt to find other interested parties – but, if so, were they put off by the Lloyds TSB deal being presented effectively as a fait accompli?

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Lloyds TSB, HBOS and Gordon Brown and his government.

5 Why can't the Bank of Scotland be protected as a separate legal entity with a meaningful HQ in Edinburgh?

The future shape of the new megabank is unclear but there are fears it may be called Lloyds Halifax, losing the Bank of Scotland name. It is understood the name may stay over Scottish branches, with the Halifax name staying in northern England and Lloyds elsewhere. Keeping the HQ in Edinburgh would maintain Scotland's reputation for fiscal rectitude – and significant employment.

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Lloyds TSB and HBOS.

6 Will the Bank of Scotland brand and banknotes carry any meaning without top-level decision-making?

The Bank of Scotland name above a branch, on chequebooks and banknotes, and a Scottish management mean little if real decisions are made in London. If Bank of Scotland is reduced to a brass plaque as all key moves are made in London, Scotland's whole banking history is shaken. The loss of the HQ of a FTSE 100 company is a grievous blow. It is not just the treasury and management functions that Scotland would lose, but the many ancillary services that support these – the flotilla of little boats that service the grand battleships.

The new megabank looks set to see the end of the "TSB" bit of Lloyds TSB, another loss for Scotland as the TSB (once the Trustee Savings Bank) began here.

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Lloyds TSB and HBOS.

7 Should HBOS chief executive Andy Hornby and chairman Sir Dennis Stevenson have had a higher profile in trying to prevent lack of confidence among investors and depositors?

There has been criticism of a real absence of leadership from Hornby and Stevenson. Even after the rights issue debacle, they kept such a low profile that they were almost subterranean. Why were they not more robust in supporting the bank? Will their inaction force thousands of customers into the arms of great rival Royal Bank of Scotland?

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Hornby and Stevenson.

8 Can the new company assure Scottish business customers that its service will be as professional and speedy as under HBOS Corporate?

Under Peter Cummings, HBOS Corporate is a respected business with Scottish knowledge. If corporate business banking moves to London, will businesses be subject to more distant and slower decision-making?

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Lloyds TSB chief executive Eric Daniels, Hornby, et al.

9 What is the government doing to protect and support the Scottish economy from the fallout?

Major job losses in the banks and the potential for many more in associated businesses present huge challenges. What is being done to boost business confidence and to mitigate against the impact of such major losses?

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Westminster government, Alex Salmond, CBI and other business groups.

10 What is being done to reassure retail customers and mortgage-holders their investments are safe?

People are confused by the huge fallout and want reassurance about their money – and whether their local branch will remain open.

WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER: Daniels and Hornby.









The full article contains 912 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Col. Blimp­IV*,

19/09/2008 00:08:10
The people who's brokers "lend" their shares out for short trading, get left with pieces of paper that are worth less than they might otherwise have been.

Can they sue the ba$tard$?

Do they ever even know that they have had their pockets picked?

Why is it legal?
2

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 19/09/2008 00:12:33
Apparently, it's all part of the union dividend. This is where Lloyds are seen as the cavalry riding in to save Scottish interests. A view much touted by unionist posters as evidence that Scotland could not feasibly become an independent country. It always amazes me that this union dividend only ever seems relevant in one direction. It is always to Scotland's alleged benefit. Bailing out Northern Rock was not seen as a union dividend. Similarly, when banks are taken over in mergers in other countries, no-one claims that those countries' independence is in question. But when it's Scotland we're supposed to feel good about a merger that will strip many of their livelihood and put it down to 'the union dividend'. It's hard to embrace this questionable ideology without feeling a shiver of embarassment.
3

subrosa,

19/09/2008 00:17:44
How can we protect the Royal Bank of Scotland?
4

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 00:24:28
Has Blimp spent a night on the sipp?

"Who's" brokers . . .? That'll be "Whose".

Share certificates are not casino chips.
5

druidh,

edinburgh 19/09/2008 00:25:14
Shorting has been banned and Hornby tells us there's nothing fundamentally wrong with HBOS. The shareholders just need to vote against this takeover.
6

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 00:26:15
#3,

Well, subrosa, you could go along to the EAGM and vote to sack the Head Shredder.

But it won't happen because he has shafted the entire Board. And he owns the negatives.
7

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 00:29:11
#5,

"Andy the Grocer" has been embraced by the financial establishment.

He can live his life in luxury and die peacefully in his slip from old age. Unless he opens his mouth - in which case "lights out" will come soon for him.
8

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 00:29:42
slip - sleep
9

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 00:34:51
Usually, about this point , my Internet connection freezes.

Can't be the Security Services.

Only drivel is spouted forth on these comment boards.
10

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 00:36:39
So, Blimp fkuced off after a long night at Hootsmon Press.

Probably bmmuing Conanist (trademark)
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 00:43:08

Give me a-break!,...

"WHO NEEDS TO ANSWER:" ?

Are you being 'Stupid' or sommid,??????????

Those that "Need TO ANSWER", WILL NEVER, REPEAT NEVER ANSWER!!

It is NOT School now you-know!

'Bankergate' and 'Coveritupagate', have it all well sussed, since the days of 'Watergate'!
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 00:44:44




D'oh!!





13

Col. Blimp­IV*,

19/09/2008 00:45:36
#4 Trams, prams, jams & bams,

If you were a member of a sufficiently well endowed and astute short selling cartel, that could consistently effect a 5% dip per week in targeted shares an investment of £20,000 would comfortably net you £25,000 PA, for no effort whatever.

Of course the people who play this game would see £20,000 as loose change.

Nice work if you can get it and it beats the sh!t out of standing in a casino for hours on end, betting even money shots to a system, surrounded by losers, poseurs and demented Chinamen.
14

TommyKaye,

UK 19/09/2008 00:53:22
1 How did Scotland lose its oldest banking institution and why was more not done to prevent it happening?

The answer is multiple choice choose from one of these:

BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN BROWN DARLING
15

TommyKaye,

UK 19/09/2008 00:58:18
"Hello is That the FSA?"

If Lloyds Bank's Victor Blank was talking to Gordon Brown about take-over plans for HBOS at a cocktail party wasn't he breaking the takeover code's strict rules on secrecy? Shouldn't somebody report them?

Yesterday the headlines said "Gordon Brown orders Lloyds takeover of HBOS". Does Brown think he can order Lloyds shareholders to vote for the deal? This is a Class 1 transaction, shareholders will decide, not Gordon.

The FT agrees is it now official government policy to have the regulators lie to the markets via the media? If the FSA itself is now lying and breaking the laws it is supposed to enforce, is there any point reporting law breakers?

Gordon Brown you are a disaster
16

Embra Don,

19/09/2008 00:58:23
"HBOS: The questions that must be answered"

11 - Who in Westminster, the FSA, or the Bank of England gives a damn about Scotland?

Who must answer? The lick-spittles in the Scottish press who can't see past the union
17

TommyKaye,

UK 19/09/2008 01:00:41
It is very simple Northern Rock is and was a shambles HBOS could have gone the same way and BROWN crapped himself as the government could not bail out anyone else as the UK doesn't have any money!

So he forced someone anyone to take it on BROWN did this and it will lead to at least 40,000 job losses Merry Christmas from Gordon Brown
18

TommyKaye,

UK 19/09/2008 01:02:30
LIARS LIARS LIARS

Commenting on the soundness of HBOS the FSA yesterday morning said it was:

"a well-capitalised bank that continues to fund its business in a satisfactory way"

Alistair Darling this morning:

Alistair Darling added that without the deal the outlook was "very bleak indeed...We were onto their (HBOS's) problem for several weeks. It didn't just suddenly happen..."
So who was lying?
19

Embra Don,

19/09/2008 01:02:38
#14 TommyKaye,

Never mind - in just a couple of years it will be Cameron and Osborne, directed by Wheatcroft who will have taken over the asylum. I'm sure we can trust them to look after Scotland's interests.
20

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

19/09/2008 01:05:30
Blimp.

How do I join?
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 01:16:33




TommyKaye ~18,

"Pants on Fire" 'HUH'?


:D

22

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 19/09/2008 01:23:19
Just watched Prime Minister Alex Salmond on CNN slamming the maggots who ended 300 years of banking by our Bank of Scotland. The reporter acknowledged that our bank was very sound, and shouldnt have needed to be taken over by an English Bank.

Alex Salmonds condemnation of "short selling" is now the battle cry of nearly every news outlet in the world. So much so they had to sit the reporter around a poker table trying to explain what a short seller does. Christ even Gordon Brown has jumped on another Alex Salmond idea. Could that be because our leader has worked for a living in free enterprise unlike the maggots down in Westmonster.

It is definately time for Scotland to take its country and government back. Those that prescribe to the philosophy that an Independant Scotland would not have control on its financial issues are merely trying to make cheap, defeatist points that have no basis to the facts.

THE BANK OF SCOTLAND WOULD HAVE SURVIVED AS A BUSINESS, IF IT WAS SUBJECT TO A SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT WHICH HAD FULL CONTROL OF ITS ECONOMY. RAISING THE 12 BILLION CAPITAL COULD HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED BY A SCOTTISH NATIONS GOVERNMENT, WHICH COULD HAVE POSTED FINANCIAL GUARANTEES LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRIES GOVERNMENT.GORDON BROWN AND ALISTAIR DARLING ARE TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BANK OF SCOTLAND DEMISE. TWO IMBECILES WHO ARE NOT EVEN IN CONTROL OF THEIR NERVE, AND DO NOT HAVE THE SORT OF INTESTINAL FORTITUDE REQUIRED TO RUN ENGLAND LET ALONE OUR SCOTTISH NATION.

A PUBLIC FLOGGING WOULD BE TO GOOD FOR THEM. SOME OTHER FORM OF COMPENSATION, WOULD BE THE ORDER OF THE DAY.
23

Big Ron,

Roseburn Bar 19/09/2008 01:29:30
Calm yourself down number 22, and try and figure out how things work in the real world.
The journalistic errors in the above article are an embarrassment to both the writer and the newspaper. I’m afraid to say the article is of tabloid quality. An informed reader will surley be as frustrated as me about the writers misunderstanding of both the concept and mechanics of short selling are. Plus ca change.
The demise of HBOS is a tragedy for Edinburgh, Scotland and the United Kingdom. Both the previous and the current management regimes of HBOS are almost entirely to blame. The Bank of Scotland should never have joined up with the Halifax. Have you ever been to Halifax? It is a dreadful place – almost as bad as Wales.
It pains me to say this, but I’ll wager that within 10 years from now, the Mound premises of what was once the pinnacle of Scottish financial prowess will be a 2nd rate hotel or public house.
The bad news in all of this for Scottish Nationalists is that it blows another hole in the argument that Scotland can survive and prosper as an independent state. The good news for Nationalists though, is that it will probably bring forward the day when Scotland is annexed by the rest of the UK to try and survive for itself. When the Tories win the election, they will no doubt try and get rid of us Jocks.
Does anybody know where I can get some Vegimite?
24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 01:55:03

Big Ron ~23,

Correct! and nice Bar also the Roseburn,

Anyhows!!!

The Scottish ARE! As I have said, all too many times on these threads,....

..."THE-UNDERDOG'S"

Always have been, and always WILL Be!

Why do people not accept this Truth, and do something about it, instead of shedding, when thing go wrong,..

'Crocodile Tears'?
25

Parking Permit,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 02:00:28
What is all this nonsense. The Bank of Scotland was taken over years ago by the Halifax. It has not been a Scottish Bank for quite some time.
26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 02:06:57
Thursday, 19 July, 2001, 18:20 GMT 19:20 UK
BoS/Halifax merger gets go-ahead



The government has cleared the £29bn merger of Halifax and Bank of Scotland.


Ours is a pro-competition deal and we intend to make life difficult for the big four

Halifax Spokesman
Trade secretary Patricia Hewitt said she would not refer the proposed deal to the Competition Commission for an investigation.
27

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 02:17:39


Wednesday, 25 April, 2001, 16:03 GMT 17:03 UK
Q&A: The Halifax - BoS merger,
A fifth force is being planned in the world of UK banking: The Halifax and Bank of Scotland want to merge. BBC business editor Jeff Randall explains the background to the deal.
Why are the two banks merging?

We have two very different businesses here. Halifax is very strong in the mortgage market and has a strong customer base.

Bank of Scotland is very active in the corporate market and a leading provider of credit cards for other organisations, such as universities, charities and football clubs.

If you fit the two banks together, they could work nicely.

They overlap neither in business terms nor geographically.

Halifax is based primarily in England, while the Bank of Scotland has only a handful of branches south of the border.

Could anything go wrong?

Where will the headquarters be? These companies are extremely important to their home markets. Halifax is iconic in Yorkshire and Bank of Scotland sits astride Edinburgh.

Closing one of these headquarters could be tricky. So too would be losing either name.

Then there is the issue of management egos. Who is going to be the overall boss?

Plenty of big deals have fallen through after senior managers could not agree on the power structure.

What will it mean for customers?

I think this could be good for customers because there is a genuine fit here.

It will be beneficial if they produced a fifth force in British banking currently dominated by the big four - HSBC, Barclays, Lloyds TSB and Royal Bank of Scotland/NatWest.

Bank of Scotland's management is highly regarded and could bring something to Halifax's army of customers.

Because there is so little overlap, it is unlikely that there will be widespread branch closures. Which means there are likely to be fewer job cuts in this deal than in other banking mergers.

And what about shareholders of both banks?

Clearly the City
28

Canadian Jambo,

19/09/2008 02:26:47
Is it true that the Bank of Scotland was founded by an Englishman?
29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 02:44:48
Bank of Scotland was founded by an Act of the Scottish Parliament on 17th July 1695, making it the first bank to be established in Scotland, and one of the first in the UK.

The Bank was set up primarily to help develop Scotland's trade, mainly with England and the Low Countries. It began business in February 1696 with a working capital of £120,000 Scots (£10,000 Sterling). The 172 original shareholders (including 36 based in London) came mainly from Scotland's political and merchant elite. What they required was a banking system which would offer long-term credit and security for merchants and landowners alike.



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Matters of note
In 1696, Bank of Scotland became the first bank in Europe to successfully issue paper currency - an invaluable service given the unreliability of Scots coinage at that time. These first notes were issued in denominations of £5, £10, £50 and £100 - the first £1 note didn't appear until 1704. The Bank's right to issue notes has been maintained to the present day.

There have been threats to this right at various times in the Bank's history. In 1826, for example, there was outrage in Scotland at the London Parliament's attempt to prevent the issue of notes under £5. Sir Walter Scott wrote a series of thinly-disguised protest letters to the Edinburgh Weekly Journal under the pen-name Malachi Malagrowther. These letters provoked such a sensation that the government relented and allowed Scottish banks to continue issuing £1 notes. To this day, Scott's portrait appears on Bank of Scotland notes.





A selection of Bank of Scotland notes, from the oldest surviving note of 1716 to the new 2007 £20

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Testing times

Bonnie Prince Charlie by Cosmo Alexander, 1752 (The Drambuie Collection)
The early years of the Bank's history were fairly turbulent.

Under the terms of its founding Act, the Bank had been granted a banking monopoly in Scotland for 21 years. After the monopoly expired, a
30

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 02:54:51



...... a rival bank - the Royal Bank of Scotland - was founded in 1727 by Royal Charter. There followed a generation of intense competition as the two banks tried to drive each other out of business.
During the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745, the Bank was forced to close its doors when Bonnie Prince Charlie's army occupied the city of Edinburgh. All the Bank's papers and valuables were transferred to Edinburgh Castle for safe-keeping, until the rebel army left several weeks later.
Early attempts by the Bank to establish a branch network were unsuccessful and it was not until 1774 that the first branches were opened in Dumfries and Kelso. By 1795 there were 27 branches: this had risen to 43 branches by 1860 and to 265 branches by 1939. The Bank's first permanent office in London opened in 1867.
During the latter half of the 18th and early 19th centuries there were significant changes to Scotland's banking system. The focus of economic development shifted to Glasgow and the west. One development was the rise of large-scale joint stock banks with significant numbers of shareholders. These provided much more serious competition for Bank of Scotland, particularly as most of the newcomers also had large branch networks. The increase in the number of banks - some of which pursued reckless lending policies - led to occasional failure.
Bank of Scotland London office: architectural plan by W. W. Gwyther, 1892 and photograph, 1956

Disastrous failures;
In 1857 the Western Bank collapsed. Bank of Scotland, along with the other major Scottish banks, stepped in to maintain confidence in the Scottish banking system and ensured that holders of the Bank's notes were paid.

In 1878 the City of Glasgow Bank also collapsed in spectacular fashion, ruining all but 254 of its 1,819 shareholders. The disaster shifted the focus of finance back to the more conservative practices of the Edinburgh banking community,

New century, new challenges;

First computer depart
31

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 03:13:13
These are all good questions, but why does The Scotsman stop here? How about "Why are we getting trams that nobody wants?"
32

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 19/09/2008 03:21:02
In many real countries (Canada being one) there are strict limits on foreign ownership of banks. If Scots people were in control of their own destiny, none of this might have happened.
And the London @ssholes who rigged this deal would have been told to take a hike. Or better still rounded up in a takedown by the Scottish constabulary.
Which, I hope, is still an option that Our Alex is contemplating.
Battering ram. Dead of night. Door in splinters in some Home Counties pile. Leg irons in a wee van. Sobbing suits. Back to the scene of the crime in Edinburgh for a little tough love justice - Scottish style. A Bernie Ebbers sentence comes quickly to mind.
This has to be the final humiliation perpetuated by Comrade Broon.
33

celticdaft,

19/09/2008 04:46:00
How exactly is Brown to blame Tommy Kaye? He isn't a 'short seller'. He doesn't make the rules. They were there before he arrived. You have a rather simplistic way of looking at this.
I also don't get all this misty-eyed feeling for the BOS as some sort of noble patriotic institution we should be proud of. It's a bank. They take your money and invest some of it in the mess of dishonesty and instability that is the US sub prime mortgage market and lose a stack of dosh and make themselves vulnerable to a short selling frenzy and get taken over.Last thing they were thinking was the mountains and glens and noble history of the BOS. They were thinking quick buck with all the smarts of a drunk poker player.
The big tragedy of the mess we now see is that the Lehamans, Freddie macs and fannie maes did what they did cause they thought they would get a bale out. Like maxing out your credit card because daddy will pay it when you can't. Lehamans seems to have been the one that didn't get the bale out and now we are really in trouble because the government tap seems to be out of water.

It sad that the inevitable is 1000s out of jobs, rising interest rates and recession. Someone has got to pay and its going to be you and me. So thanks to all the nice banks and brokers that did all this and i for one will not be shedding a nationalist tear for the BOS. (BOS =bag of sh*t)
34

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta.CA..for more WAR ..VOTE McCain 19/09/2008 04:56:31
HBOS: The questions that must be answered...

DUHhhh!!!

And the SNP cavalry rides to the rescue DUHhhh!!!!!

Imagine the chaos were Scotland an independent state with its 5 million citizens.

Who would bail U dudes out.

When the most powerful the biggest economies in the world are struggling what chance would a tiny pip squeak nation like Scotland have . Alone and independent

The Irish were smart they hitched their shamrock waggon to the EU.

Scottish Patriotism and dead and gone histories never put bread on a table.

As for the collapse of HBOS ...suck it up dudes and move on.

Have a nice Day

GC
35

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 05:21:58
32 Neil Waugh
More ill-informed irrational comment.
HBOS may have had its HQ in Scotland but it carried out the vast majority of its business elsewhere in the UK as the Halifax part of HBOS. How then can a restriction on foreign ownership in terms of an indepependent Scotland be applicable. In the situation you are envisaging the Halifax part of HBOS would have been a foreign bank.
36

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 05:28:13
22 A Better Way
Another rant from somebody with no understanding of the issues. When will people finally accept that all this talk of how things would have been different if Scotland had control is utterly meaningless as HBOS carried out the vast majority of its business in the rest of the UK and was therefore subject to UK regulation from the FSA. Also, even if Scotland was independent HBOS shares would still be traded on the London Stock Exchange in the same way as Bank of IReland, Allied Irish Banks and overseas banks are.
37

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 05:35:10
23 Big Ron
The journalistic errors are matched by the complete lack of understanding of the issues by many who have posted hysterical rants on this site.
38

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 05:44:38
5 Druidh
Absolutely - a good point which puts the hysterical tirades of Alex Salmond and co. into some perspective. If, as he claims, HBOS was "sound" and only forced into this takeover at a knock-down price by unjustified short selling then the shareholders need not accept it. Indeed, if Alex Saolmond's version of events is accurate they would be foolish to do so. Also, if the situation is as he states, why has another bank (UK or overseas) not stepped in with a better offer.
39

Boy Wonder,

19/09/2008 05:56:12
With this takeover, you'll note it's the Scots parts of the new giant that lose out, with the disappeance of the TSB and the BoS brand names.

And will the Hootsmon now end its blind allegiance to New Labour, who have been as much the architects of this carry-on as anyone?
40

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 06:21:23
40

Would the Government give another bank the carte blanc they gave Lloyds? or would they step in with the competition regulation especially if it is an overseas bank?
And it isnt only AS version is it. Alex Salmonds "version" seems to be shared by many others South of the border including Tory newspapers.
But never let the truth get in the way of a good ol anti SNP rant.
41

TommyKaye,

UK 19/09/2008 06:22:33
Brown is TOTALLY to blame he was the Chancellor for how many years?

He was the captian of the economy he knew that banks and other mortgage providers were lending and supplying cheap money if he didnt then what the hell was he doing?

The fact is HBOS was in trouble and BROWN SH&T himself big time already Northern Rock has been a total crock up on BROWN'S watch and if HBOS was going down he was toast.

Here is the fact sheet

BROWN = UK PRIME MINISTER = NORTHERN ROCK collapsed
BROWN = UK PRIME MINISTER = HBOS Forced into closure

Therefore BROWN = failures
42

John S,

19/09/2008 06:24:44
Norway is a safe economic haven.
In the present financial storm, economic analysts describe Norway as a safe haven."Norway's sovereign global fund gives us room to manoeuvre.We may take a loss in the short term, but we'll profit in the long run.Aftenposten -17 Sep 2008

Norway pop 4,623,291- Norway's Petroleum Fund (Sovereign Global Fund), set up to pay future health and pension expenses in Europe's second-richest country.
The fund invests Norway's oil and gas wealth in foreign stocks and bonds to save for future generations when the oil runs out and to shield the Norwegian economy and currency from the threat of overheating through huge oil income.
The initial investment of $300 million was made in the spring of 1996.
The fund was valued at $387.3 billion in March 2008, Norway's central bank reported.15/04/2008
This latest figure equates to $82,000 for every person living in Norway.
43

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 06:24:46
38

Face the FACTS Georgie boy if AS had the power to bail out HBOS he would have at least made the attempt and that power only comes with full independence and control of all fiscal revenue.
He may even have intervened before BOS became HBOS.
The point being of course is that there wasnt a Scottish government in place to give us that option.
44

Andrew D,

bne 19/09/2008 06:26:24
I don't get why people say that this shows how Scotland will not survive as an independant entity.

Excuse me? It's *BECAUSE* of being tied to those damn crooks in Westminster that this happened!

You can't blame independance for something that happened while tied to England/Wales/NI.
45

LEAL,

19/09/2008 06:55:55
Gordon Brown is responsible for this.He is quite glad to see the failure of any instituition with "Scotland" in its name.His name will live in infamy in Scotland and his children and grand children will be ashamed of him.
46

Castaway,

Manila 19/09/2008 07:01:11
#32-Neil Waugh,You are correct when you wrote in many real countries (Canada being one) there are strict limits on foreign ownership of banks.
As far as the Philippine banks are concerned foreign ownership limted to 30% or 40% and in some cases foreign ownership is not allowed. This also applies to other Philippine listed companies.http://tinyurl.com/48ctsw
47

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 19/09/2008 07:08:35
So now we have an even bigger firm for the FSA to regulate, will it stop that one from falling over? Does it know about some very odd lending practices? Doubt it very much, the regulator is like the police, it is easier to strangel the small firm because it can't bite back.
48

Chaplin,

19/09/2008 07:10:47
If HBoS had taken over Lloyds, the nationalist posters on here would of spouted the usual braveheart statements, It might come as a shock to them but HBos is an internationally traded company who could of been bought out by anyone. BoS ceased to be a truly Scottish company when it agreed to a merger with Halifax. Putting you're head in the sand and expecting a nationalist government to stifle foreign investment on nationalistic grounds or protect Scottish companies from foreign buyouts etc. only ends up limiting the companies growth potential and makes foreigners wary of investing in Scotland. It is one of the reasons why the UK does so well when it comes to inward foreign investment.
49

El Sabio,

Sibbertoft 19/09/2008 07:12:10
Short selling is supposed to enhance market efficiency, i.e. if you believe the text books.

Naked short selling is supposed to be illegal, I think. However, the yuppies get away with all sorts of dubious practices including rumoour mongering
50

chicane,

19/09/2008 07:17:43
Trustee Savings Bank of Scotland anyone?

Based on the original principles of the original Rev Henry Duncan's TSB in Ruthwell.

i.e use the savings to lend to people who are actually going to pay back the loans at a reasonable interest rate most of which goes back as interest to the savers, no speculative gambling on the sub-prime market and currency fluctuations.
51

Nevsky,

Moscow 19/09/2008 07:20:57
Can anyone name me Scotlands national bank? England has one but i believe Scotland is the only country in the world without one?

I am sure the Bank of England is safe of course.
52

Nevsky,

Moscow 19/09/2008 07:22:05
The Scottish Government must immediatly legislate for a Scottish Bank!
53

jj veritas,

19/09/2008 07:22:24
The directors of the bank and the government officers who allowed this disaster to grow, expand and develop should answer financially and lose there pensions, houses and assets.
54

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 07:26:24
50

No they couldnt have been bought out by anyone not without the UK governments approval.
The UK government always had the option of stepping in and preventing any merger on legal grounds.
Do you honestly think that if anybody tried a run on the Bank of England the UK government would stand still and allow it?
Stop making yer sh*te up as you go along.
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 07:28:19
50

Other nations protect their financial assets from speculators with legislation but Scotland is powerless to do so and that is the difference between being fully independent to being subjegated to another nation.
56

Royster,

19/09/2008 07:34:37
#54. Why? Might as well immediately legislate for a Scottish biscuit company.
57

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 07:38:37
58

You cant save yer money in a biscuit factory and you cant buy biscuits in a bank.
If you keep displaying this kind of incompetant stupidity social services may have to take your kids for their own safety.
58

Jambo Dave,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 07:39:10
Do you think we will get answers to to the above questions? Not a chance they are all in it together because it dosnt matter who you vote for the world is owned and run by oil and banks.If you need proof just read the news over the last 6 monthes.I see also Mr Balls Up keeps his job!! need I say more.
59

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 07:42:50
61

Yes of course and if a Scottish government had been in place to run interference with that merger would it have still happened?
60

jtdx,

19/09/2008 07:46:20
Question number 6 is just silly. The advantages of printing your own banknotes remain no matter where the head-office resides (Clydesdale bank still prints them). Also "Bank of Scotland" is still a pretty good-sounding brand-name, and its unlikely that Lloyds will want to lose it.
61

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 19/09/2008 07:46:23
Once again England comes to Scotland's rescue.

It's the scenario that began with the Act of Union.

It's embarrassing, but who will rescue us after independence? Alex? If he is so smart then why didn't he jump about warning us all BEFORE these terrible events?

I'm afraid the SNP remains part of the problem, not the solution.

Federation is the only sensible way forward
62

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 07:46:31
63

Any reason why it cant be a nationalised Scottish bank?
apart from the fact that Scotland doesnt have the power to nationalise it?
63

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 07:47:46
66

Oh you dont look like a troll at all.
Obviously didnt post that as a sh*t stir.
64

Retired from Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 07:53:27
If Gordon Brown can now end the practice of short selling ( which I had never heard of before today), and Darling was aware of HBOS's problems 6 weeks ago, why didn't he 'outlaw' it then.
65

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 07:54:45
67
Yes - one huge and compelling reason. HBOS conducts the vast majority of its business elsewhere in the UK.
How can a Scottish government "nationalise" assets outside Scotland?
66

Nevsky,

Moscow 19/09/2008 07:59:47
63 Dave#

You are indeed missing something. The Bank of England is state owned, the bank of the treasury, in fact it is the national bank for the UK; the Bank of England.

Scotland has (as i said) no national bank and is the only country in the world without one (i think).
67

dyon gollins's back,

Brussels 19/09/2008 08:02:30
Time for a de-maerger of BoS and Scottish Widow's into a new Scottish financial conglomerate; go for it Alec!!
68

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:02:33
56 suchaparcelofrogues
You hurl abuse at somebody who makes a valid point when it is patently obvious that you have virtually no understanding of the issues involved.
The Bank of England is a central bank in charge of currency and is not a quoted company so the issue of a run on it does not arise. HBOS was a trading bank and a company. The two are completely different types of institution.
69

Royster,

19/09/2008 08:05:08
#59. A bank is a business like any other. A bank may be more important socially but you can at least eat biscuits... unlike HBOS share certificates.
70

Brodric,

19/09/2008 08:06:37
Splitting hairs over whether or not the Bank of Scotland was lost before or now, is irrelevant.

The point is that the Bank of Scotland (even as HBOS) was Scotland's most important and most iconic bank - printing its own money.

Sometimes entities are more than the sum of their parts - and this was the case with the Bank of Scotland.

And that we have to listen to this anti-Scottish, nasty, snickering, snide drivel about this being another reason why the Scots can't manage to be independent, is beyond the pale - and shows a significant lack of respect for Scots people.

I, for one, am sick of this. Its a very British attitude We should fight for our independence once and for all and get on with it, good or bad. I've seen countries with less the potential of this one emerge into Europe - and they are developing well. Whilst we are glued to the apron-strings of the stagnating UK with its yearnings for the long-dead Empire - and its centralised power which swallowed up all riches from the length and breadth of Britain - we won't get anywhere.

No 24 Chas is right. ..'"THE-UNDERDOG'S" Always have been, and always WILL Be!
Why do people not accept this Truth, and do something about it, instead of shedding, when thing go wrong,..'

We will always be seen as the underdogs if we don't have the courage to rise above it - and to believe in ourselves. Too long, we have believed that we are the underdogs, having been told this continually for years.




71

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:06:39
53 Nevsky
The Bank of England is a central bank which controls currency. France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Greece, Austria and many more countries are now part of the Euro zone and hence are sbject to the European Central Bank. They therefore do not have a national bank in the form of the Bank of England. Your assertion that Scotland is the only country without a national bank is, therefore, completely mistaken.
72

The Tin Man,

19/09/2008 08:07:06
At the end of the day, the rules were dropped in order for HBOS to be taken-over because HBOS had made a lot of poor financial decision. HBOS will probably disappear, over time.

By the way, why would anyone want to nationalise a High Street bank? At about £2000 per person for every man, woman, and child in Scotland? That would be a good idea....
73

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 08:08:23
77

Most businesses are not protected by legislation in the event of take overs and mergers though are they? certainly no biscuit factories.
Nobody cares if somebody corners the market in buscuits but what if all UK banks were run by the same institution? a foreign one at that?
Royster you have to do something about this anti Independence phobia of yours its turning yer brain to custard.
74

Royster,

19/09/2008 08:08:49
#76. Yes, we must surrender totally to a collection of foreign nations...
75

Brodric,

19/09/2008 08:08:53
Continued:

Get off your erkies and fight for independence - and show our displeasure at the merger of the Bank of Scotland.

Question if the merger of the Bank of Scotland wasn't another way of taking away an icon for Scotland and its stature as an independent country. Only a few weeks ago, it was mooted that Scotland's power to print its own money might be taken away.

I AM NO CONSPIRACY THEORIST .....BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT THIS IS RATHER CONVENIENT!!!

76

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 08:09:35
79

Liar liar pants on fire.
77

Scotish Exile,

19/09/2008 08:09:45
Blame the greedy incompetent bankers at HBOS for getting themselves into this mess, it is them that should be addressing matters, but they will disappear quietly into the sunset with their pockets bulging...
78

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:10:56
78 Brodric
The Royal Bank of Scotland is much bigger than HBOS. How, then, could HBOS be Scotland's most important bank.
79

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 08:11:01
80

Oh nothing political in these constitutional troubled times influenced the decision at all then?
A UK government made a decision without any political considerations at all?
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 08:12:18
82

But its ok for Scotland to surrender its sovereignty to England?
81

David K.,

Loch Lomond 19/09/2008 08:12:50
Sir Dennis Stevenson should be stripped of his Knighthood. Shame on you .
82

Black Five,

edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:13:46
Bank of Scotland shafted by Broon the buffon and Groucho Darling the poodle.As for that twit Hornby he`d be better going and playing with his trains,
Indeed a whole sorry mess which should not have happened.The shareholders should vote against this if this is possible.The workers will pay for Hornby`s folly and as for the name B O S it will surely dosappear.A complete and utter mess.
83

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:14:09
84 suchaparcelofrogues
What is your "liar liar pants on fire" statement meant to do. The facts I mentioned in post 79 are absolutely correct and are common knowledge to anybody with any awareness of these issues. Check them out. Sorry but your childish insults cannot alter the truth.
84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 19/09/2008 08:14:19
80

How much did other nations fork out to nationalise their own banks?
And why isnt there a global out cry about the massive tax increaces it caused and the cuts to services?
85

The Tin Man,

19/09/2008 08:14:22
I, for one, hope that they will stop printing those stupid parochial banknotes.
86

lodger,

Highland 19/09/2008 08:14:29
Does anyone remember their Scottish history in relation to the Darien project?
The same coniving, "do the Scots down", nasty attitudes are still at work in the establishment!
87

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:16:33
There's something really whiffy here. You can't just merge two companies of this size in a couple of days. These things take months. The spivs had an unsuccessful go at HBoS a few months ago. There was obviously something wrong with the company if the sharks smelled blood in the water. I suspect HBoS hasn't been as much the hapless victim of an unsolicited corporate raid as its being made out.
88

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:17:24
93 suchaparcelofrogues
Please tell us which nations have nationalises their banks.
89

The Tin Man,

19/09/2008 08:18:14
#87 superparcelofrogue

Of course you are correct - your government allowed the merger of a bank based in Edinburgh & Yorkshire, with a bank base in Edinburgh & London, in order to stem your personal ethnic-patriotic aspirations...
90

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 19/09/2008 08:18:55
96 Draco
Thank goodness for some intelligent comment at last.
91

Nevsky,

Moscow 19/09/2008 08:19:18
79# George:

The Bank of England is the central bank of the UK. Scotland has no national bank.

Scotland has NO central bank unlike every other european country. I am afraid you are the one who is mistaken.
92

Royster,

19/09/2008 08:20:15