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HBOS: The questions just keep piling up

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Published Date: 20 September 2008
SERIOUS doubts about Lloyds TSB's takeover of HBOS emerged last night after a leading City figure suggested there had been an abuse of the market rules as talks were being held.
Keith Skeoch, the chief executive of Standard Life Investments, said there had been a delay before the talks were formally announced. Stock market rules dictate companies in advanced talks should make a formal announcement to the stock exchange, with trading in their shares being suspended.

Were these critical rules broken? The intervention by Mr Skeoch, the head of one of Britain's biggest institutional investors, adds to the growing furore over the circumstances of the scrambled bid for HBOS as its shares were in freefall.

Had news of the talks been announced earlier, the dramatic plunges of this week – and particularly of Wednesday morning when the shares crashed by more than 50 per cent – could have been avoided.

If the share crash was avoidable, and HBOS had been able to survive until Thursday night, when news of the United States government's plan to buy toxic debt came through, the bank could still be independent.

That news from across the Atlantic yesterday sparked a surge in share values, with HBOS's stock rocketing by 33 per cent.

Mr Skeoch was angry that the market had learned of the HBOS/Lloyds TSB talks from the BBC, and even then there was a delay of several hours before they were confirmed.

When asked in a BBC Radio 4 interview if it was an abuse of the market, he said: "There's an issue there, and I think we should be asking ourselves who was in the possession of that information and why it wasn't released to the market and why it was made available to the market via the BBC."

While the Bank of England has refused to comment officially on claims it dithered over whether to step in, a source there has said a liquidity facility was available at an unlimited level.

The source has raised further questions by suggesting the deal was a "purely commercial decision" and nothing to do with HBOS's survival. This is crucial, as a commercial deal would not have taken place in normal circumstances; the government waived competition rules only because it was an exceptional situation.

Archie Kane, the chief executive of Scottish Widows, which has been owned by Lloyds TSB since 1999, echoed the Bank of England source's assessment of the takeover, saying:

"This deal was done for commercial reasons. We would not have got into the situation otherwise. We operate on behalf of our shareholders, we do the best thing for our key stakeholders."

The controversy follows anger over the role of short selling in HBOS's demise. Fingers have been pointed at the Financial Services Authority (FSA) for failing to stop the practice quickly enough.

The developments have resulted in a formal request that there is an FSA investigation into the deal.

The SNP MSP Alex Neil, a former economic consultant, has written to the FSA, London Stock Exchange and the Bank of England demanding an inquiry into the alleged abuse of the market.

"It appears that there has been a serious breach of stock market rules, which must be investigated," he said.

On the controversy over the Bank of England, he added: "If what appears to be coming out of the Bank of England is true, and this was a purely commercial decision, then we have to ask why HBOS is being sold. If it is true it needed to be rescued, then both the Bank of England and FSA failed HBOS."

HBOS has strongly denied delaying the announcement to the stock exchange. A spokesman said: "We take our market disclosure responsibilities very seriously. We believe that our statement was issued as expeditiously as possible."

The row erupted on a day when the US government's decision to effectively nationalise bad debt stabilised the financial sector, leading to huge rises in banks' shares.

This has led to further suggestions the Treasury had been too eager to push through the HBOS takeover.

Keith Bowman, a market analyst with Hargreaves, said: "Maybe it was rushed and there are doubts over whether the merger will actually solve the problems. But on Tuesday, the priority was the health of the banking system, not of HBOS."

Sources close to Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, insisted that, despite the claims coming from the Bank of England, if the takeover deal had not been put on the table, there would have been a run on HBOS and it would have gone under.

The UK Shareholders Association (UKSA) has questioned the need to rescue a bank that, to the outside observer, and using financial information provided by HBOS, appeared to be profitable. It said that if indeed it was a "good deal" for HBOS shareholders to sell the bank at about the current market price, the directors had a lot of explaining to do.

The doubts have put into question whether HBOS shareholders will back the merger.

A spokesman for the UKSA, said: "Only if HBOS shareholders receive an adequate explanation that convinces them that a sale of the bank was essential should they approve the takeover by voting for it."

Bryan Johnston, of Bell Lawrie, said: "Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the situation looked pretty bad on Tuesday. Of course, shareholders at HBOS may reject this deal, but I think they would be very unwise."

Swinney seeks GlobalScots' help

HBOS opinion: Keith Skeoch, Chief Executive of Standard Life Investments

HBOS: Lloyds TSB chairman Victor Blank talks about the deal

The full article contains 932 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 September 2008 11:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Halifax Bank of Scotland
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/09/2008 22:52:48
Not the Scotsman’s most balance ever article. Skeoch also said that despite being somewhat disappointed by the financial implication for Standard Life, he approves of the takeover and feels that in the long term it will renew stability in the market.
2

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/09/2008 22:53:57
Typo: "balanced"
3

Charles Linskaill,

Waiting for DYW baby sitting 20/09/2008 00:10:58


Well the "questions can come piling in" all they want!

But I can tell you all something,.....

Not a 'hell's hope' that they will be answered!

You would have to be 'green as cheese' if you think otherwise.
4

Resolutions,

20/09/2008 00:14:02
Every minute seems to raise more questions about this financial farce.

You could not make this stuff up - its like some novel - but its real ordinary decent folk, being hurt, not fictional characters
5

Senga Jean,

20/09/2008 00:15:43
I for one aint voting for this bargain basement deal!
6

Resolutions,

20/09/2008 00:25:22
Neither am I!
7

Brodric,

20/09/2008 00:28:09
This lends fuel to the fire that something stinks to high heaven.

Why has all this been rushed through so soon after it was mooted that Scottish banks have their right to print Scottish banknotes withdrawn?

Why wasn't the call to halt all short term trading given a day earlier?

Who exactly is behind the short trading - and why?

We all know that in any case HBOS would have faced difficulties in the current world financial situation, caused by the collapse of the American property market, and also that Hornby et al had steered the Bank in an imprudent direction, but we must ask the question if this was enough?

Until now, I couldn't believe that the UK government, under a Scottish PM, would sell HBOS down the river - but there are too many why's and not enough answers.
8

Resolutions,

20/09/2008 00:32:50
Is the right to print our banknotes not enshrined in the Act of Union 1707? One of the few things that was kinda honoured.

Yes there is a very nasty odour about this.
9

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 00:42:39
So, we shared holders should vote against the merger...simple...
10

subrosa,

20/09/2008 00:45:09
# 11

As long as we have enough shares to outvote the big boys. They want it.
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 00:48:04


Resolutions ~10,

"a very nasty odour" that's for sure! infact the whole thing 'stinks',..

And no-need for comment, because the whole 'caboodle' will be covered-up.

I is not the children's playground, it is high profile politics, and we are mere plebs.
12

jinkyjo,

glasgow 20/09/2008 01:05:10
The takeover happened with indecent haste. There wasn't large scale withdrawals from depositors, nor did it have to go cap in hand to the BOE for extra liquidity. It seems strange that more wasn't done to try and stem the flow of speculation against a bank that, while not perfectly run, was solvent. It will be intresting to note where Brown ends up after he's booted from number 10.
13

Guga II,

Rockall 20/09/2008 01:07:31
This proves that Maggie Broon has sold out Scotland, once again.

Vidkun Quisling was also a "son of the manse".
14

BIG EYE,

Paisley 20/09/2008 01:32:10
Consider this

Brown and Darling were aware that the USA were considering the move they made yesterday. They hd taken no steps to protect HBOS through outlawing short selling despite two previous attempts to destabilise the bank in the previous six months.

Brown has already admitted he was heavily involved with Lloyds in advance of the HBOS slide. So a window of opportunity was created where Lloyds could pick up HBOS on the cheap and Brown could parade around claiming to have stabilised the market.

Some collateral damage in the shape of thousands of lost jobs in Scotland but this can be put down to "friendly fire"

And there still people in our country (numbers getting smaller all the time) who still vote Labour?
15

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 20/09/2008 01:35:43

No name calling and rejecting a secret government plot to do away with Scottish bank notes

This was done with undue haste there is something fishy here and the air needs to be cleared by a full enquiry before this merger takes place .
16

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 01:39:44
People have to inform themselves about this deal because it's an absolute disgrace. Lloyds' deposit to lending ratio was not much better than HBOS' and Lloyds also used a great deal of the wholesale markets to fund their operations. I therefore fail to see why HBOS was targeted in such a manner. This deal stinks of market manipulation, unjustified speculation, and criminality.

People have to ask themselves who this is going to benefit and why was it allowed to happen? It's going to create a behmoth that will dominate the market and stifile competition, but yet it was rushed through on the back of some perceived risk to the markets. I urge everybody who is not familiar with Naomi Klein to read her theory on disaster capitalism to understand how economic shocks can lead to financial piracy.
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 01:51:27


The Deal is done and dusted, The aftermath wont Count, as the Ground will settle,....

History marks it, and our future generations will not be affected.

Whats, 'done is done' there is no reverse, lets get on with our lives,...

Comment is good, but it wont change anything now!

Comment would be far better the reflections on the past history of the HBOS, or in true terms the BOS!

A once was, and now a no-more.
18

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 01:56:03
Charles, I'm sure that those who benefited from this deal would love that to happen. However, it is the duty of the Scottih Government and the Scottish media to find out exactly why and how and why this deal came about.


19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:00:12


jinkyjo ~34,

You must be 'Joking'!

All will be covered and dressed up, to give Answers of 'non-truth', but ones that will please the plebs by brainwashing them, in what they want to hear!
20

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 02:05:17
Charles, you are correct. However, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to spread the truth and make people question what they are seeing and experiencing.
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:16:57

jinkyjo ~40,

I agree, but the 'Roy Cropper' and 'Victor Meldrew's' comments, should be addressed, as these People are sadly living in 'Cloud Cuckoo Land' and NOT the real World of the ones in control,...


They are 'brainwashed and conditioned' to make these comments, it is an expected response, of those in control,..

A Little Like, 'bin laden', who is,....

'Laughing his heed off' at the West!
22

Brian Hill,

20/09/2008 02:24:55
I must say that my first thoughts were 'political' reasons rather than financial for this total 'English' takeover.

How convenient for Unionists to show Scots how vulnerable even their leading and most cherished institutions could be.

How frightening....Independence? You must be joking. Scotland is clearly too small for that. Shame that it appears to be backfiring. The country is united under Alex Salmond's leadership.

And with the sudden recovery of the markets today and the possibility of rules having been broken concerning the 'non' suspension of shares, who knows what might happen now?

This looks like it may have some distance yet to run.
23

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 20/09/2008 02:32:28
Time for Salmond to call in the Mounties.
24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:33:05


Brian ~46,

It is all far too late now, The People must understand, that we are treated as the underdogs, always have been!, always will be!

No need to cry wolf, and shed stupid crocodile tears, we the instigation of our own demise, have let them away with it for centuries past!

If one had a modicum of intelligence, one would Know this.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:36:02



Brian ~46/48reply

This is not a dig at you, it is the whole scenario.



26

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 02:48:02
What exactly has Brown and Darling been doing since Northern Rock to shore up the UK banking sector. If I'm not mistaken, Northern Rock started to collapse a year ago last Saturday, and yet, it has taken those two incompetents until yesterday to do anything meaningful to shore up the banks, even though Scotland's oldest bank is under sustained attack by speculators throughout this time. I'm not paranoid, they really are out to get me.
27

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:50:48
Govt bail-out for Northern Rock - 70 billion

Govt bail-out for AIG - 80 Billion

Govt bail out of Freddie and Fannie - 200Billion

Govt bail out of HBOS - 0

Many people on these boards suggesting at the time of Northern Rock that no such rescue packages would be afforded to sponging Scottish financial institutions in a similar predicament - PRICELESS
28

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:52:41
Brown brokering the sale of Scotland second largest company in a regulator induced fire storm the day before the market rallies - priceless
29

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:53:17
Smashing the economy of Scotland for political purposes - priceless
30

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:55:02
Not communicating with our closest ally the day before the federal reserve the day before a massive rescue package - priceless
31

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:58:23
Staying put in a union where our interests are outweighted by a neighbour 10 times our size - what price?
32

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 03:03:53
The shareholders of both banks have to reject this takeover. It cannot be right that an institution can be manipulated in this way. The apathy in this country astounds me sometimes.
33

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/09/2008 04:13:02
Predictably, AM2 sees nothing wrong with this whole sordid affair, whilst everyone else is up in arms at the way in which this Scottish bank has been compromised by Westminster.

As a shareholder in HBOS, I will be voting against the takeover and I hope all others do too.

Brown and Darling have been complicit in selling Scotland down the river once again.
34

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 20/09/2008 04:45:48
As it is now clear that if the Bank of England had intervened with liquidity assistance and had the market rules regarding announcement of merger/takeover discussions been complied with (see comments by Standard Life) HBOS would have survived until the US announced its intervention in the toxic loans debacle and not been under any threat whatsoever, it is all the more reason for the Westminster government not to amend the competition and mergers legislation to permit a merger which they would not have otherwise allowed.

Holyrood and the EU should see to this.

And note: this merger has not actually yet taken place. Months will pass before the deal is formalised. So far it is based on a handshake ("my word is my bond" as they say, or used to say, in the world of "high" finance!). The merger could therefore still be halted.

Go to it Mr Salmond!

35

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 20/09/2008 04:46:46
Sorry Charlie but I cant accept your analysis of the theft of our bank. Yes we are in general plebs as far as Westminster is concerned, but that is never a reason for just going with the flow.

This newspaper should finally get with the programme, and start the same type of campaign they carried out to protect Scottish Waters. Its Time to protect our HBOS, by using this paper as a vocal point for the unity of the Scottish Nations fight to uncover the truth and get the message out there to the silent majority.

As far as divisions exist between unionist Scots and pro Independence Scots go, we should all collaborate to STOP THIS manipulation of the people.

You never know unionists may get a better insight into why so many Scottish People want an end to this craap, and the only way to do it is break apart the UK.

I watched Sky News (Rupert Murdoch) mouthpieces interviewing Brown yesterday. He has done his duty to the real powerbrokers by undermining the bank, so Rupert ordered his dummies to give him a free ride. Like "why dont you let us see more of your beautiful boys, and how much you are a family man".Bit of a change since two weeks ago eh...

So come on Scotsman, start your campaign to Protect Our Bank and stop the merger. You never know it might actually help solve Johnson Press's 109 million quids losses year to date.
36

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 20/09/2008 04:55:03
Good comment William of Liberton. Exactly correct as far as this merger is concerned.

The Scottish Government should use whatever amount of money it takes to launch a Legal Challenge in both London and the European Courts.Its time to take a stance, and draw a line in the sand. No More, No Way and No How to the prostitutes that go by the name of Westminster MP.s.

Go for it Alex, Please we need your help more than ever.
37

donald,

glasgow 20/09/2008 05:03:10
I'm going to take my overdraft elsewhere.
38

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 05:19:04
From the Times-

"In a move coordinated with his American counterparts, Hector Sants, the chief executive of the Financial Services Authority (FSA), implemented a ban on the short-selling of 32 financial stocks on the London Stock Exchange on Thursday night. Short-selling is a method of betting that the price of a share will fall."

"Mr Sants said that, although short-selling was legitimate, it had contributed to a “disorderly market”."

Obviously from these quotes suggest that short-selling did contribute to HBOS's predicament and that the FSA were unwilling to ban short-selling until they got some kind of approval from the Americans. If this is true, then it's an absolute disgrace. It seems that HBOS was offered no protection from the British state; it was simply fed to the lions.
39

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 05:24:53
I like this one as well:

Jeremy Batstone-Carr, head of research for Charles Stanley, the broker, said: “Short-selling probably contributed to HBOS’s demise. But there needs to be consolidation – we have to have a clear-out,” he said.
40

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 05:42:20
It's clearer by the minute that this had nothing to do with saving the financial system, but had everything to do with reducing the number of banks competing on the high street. It seems that the plan had the knowledge of Darling, Brown, the FSA and the BOE and that they have done nothing to prevent it from happening. If there is a choice as to whether it's an English bank or a Scottish bank that has to disappear... Another example of the Union dividend.
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 06:28:10
A question that has to be answered and investigated if necessary is did our Government know in advance that the US government planned on buying out the "toxic debt"? and if it did why did it allow the merger to go through?
It isnt only the debt which smells toxic about this affair.

1 AM2

I find it pathetic how you can claim this article isnt balanced when you have taken so many articles in the past at face value and posted you own "balanced" statements accordingly.
And under so many different accounts too.
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 06:42:02
Is it inconceivable that the US government didnt inform the UK government in advance of its plans to stabilise the markets?
Is it inconceivable that the US didnt in fact inform all members of the G8 of their plans to stabilise the markets in advance?
43

Marga,

Fife 20/09/2008 06:42:36
Also I think you could bring in two things that have been puzzling everyone, not necessarily conspiracy theorists.
-Whay exactly did David Cairns resign? Did he perhaps get wind of this? Everyone was surprised by his resignation, was this one reason? Think of his position today and more significantly if/when a protest movement starts.
-Why exactly has Glenrothes been kept on the back burner for so long? What are/were they waiting for?
44

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 06:51:18
67

Delaying Glenrothes isnt surprising after their Glasgow East fiasco no doubt they have a forlorn hope for better days. David Cairns I believe has just jumped off a sinking ship which isnt so surprising either I doubt it has anything to do with the merger.
Lets keep it as real a possible.
45

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 07:29:45
Following the announcement (even before the announcement) Lloys were subject to takeover speculation should they aquire HBIS as this considerably stretches their finance and their whole portfolio now looks under-balanced.

Why then was RBS not consulted to create one Scottish 'super bank' and why were Lloyds given (it looks like) a guarantee from the government when the same could equally aply to RBS.

If the Bank of England gave assurance of funds for HBOS why was it sold at all. Hold your shares and vote NO!
46

scotinus,

Santa Barbara. California 20/09/2008 07:46:11
Short selling is not a new phenomena. Remember George Soros almost killed of the Pound through this activity. George is still around and looked upon as much of the media as a Financial God rather than the villain that he is!!!
Short selling can easily be stopped in all stock exchanges by simply not allowing shares to be borrowed.
Further, put a minimum time limit to holding shares (1 month?).
The latter can be pushed through all meaningful governments within days. How long did governments take to limit liquids taken on board aircraft?
Short sellers have maimed financially, physically and mentally more people than any Al Quaida terrorist!
So Gordon, you were Chancellor for how long??? You attended so many G7 conferences etc etc and you didn't see this bomb waiting to explode???? Keep playing the fiddle laddie and ignore the smell of burning!!!! God, I hope you're given your P45 this week!!!
47

Jambo 7,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 07:52:27
So the FSA have stopped short-selling. Well done! Now how about identifying and criminalising the acts of those who are involved in what can only be described as manipulation of the stock market for their own gain and greed. Many companies will fall in the future until those with access to insider knowledge and who spread rumour to undermine confidence are caught. I strongly suspect that quite often it's those that are near the top of the failing companies that are to blame.

It really is an absolute disgrace to see so much hardship suffered by the general public and then see these characters, who are basically untouchable and know it, walk away with multi-millions. Time for some action. I do not support SNP but Alex Salmond is the only politician who has the balls to come out and say what is wrong and what needs to be done. I only hope he can influence the outcome.

48

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 08:27:48
70

I think we can safely say this goes way beyond just short selling.
49

MWM,

Argyll 20/09/2008 08:31:38
Like I said earlier in the week, this whole scenario has been orchestrated from No10 Downing Street for political purposes. Brown and Darling are laughing all the way to the bank!


50

Interested Spectator,

Glasgow 20/09/2008 08:35:14
69 Nevsky,Moscow 20/09/2008 07:29:45

""Why then was RBS not consulted to create one Scottish 'super bank' and why were Lloyds given (it looks like) a guarantee from the government when the same could equally aply to RBS.

If the Bank of England gave assurance of funds for HBOS why was it sold at all. Hold your shares and vote NO!""

Nevsky - The Scottish Super Bank idea whilst romantic and seemingly topical would raise so many problems :-

- one dominant player in the Scottish market with c. 80% of the personal banking market and more than that for SMEs. In the long term is this REALLY in Scotlands interest?
- just how many jobs would go in such circumstances
- it is also fair to note that RBS is more than a little preoccupied with its own exposure to the credit crunch or more bluntly the City view of it

BTW I am absolutely no advocate of the Lloyds takeover of HBOS, but on the other hand, I dont claim to know whether or not HBOS does have serious funding issues in the next 18 months. One thing is for sure though, if it does, then it would never be allowed to fail....its exposure to the UK housing market carries too many risks to the UK economy, hence the Government being keen on a quick deal - rightly or wrongly it removes a concern for their own embattled position.
51

TWC,

Ayrshire 20/09/2008 08:37:42
Well done Margo McDonald.
A public enquiry is required and hold it in Scotland not like the Kelly / Weapons of mass destruction con.
This whole thing stinks.
52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 08:41:49
74

And there is no possiblity that the quick deal was because they were aware that the US government was going to stablise the markets and they had to get this deal done before it happened and the HBOS share price recovered?
53

carrottop,

Dumfries 20/09/2008 08:43:00
The delay in suspending share dealing in HBOS gave more than enough time to those with inside knowledge of the impending deal time to buy shares on the cheap in the full knowledge that they were going to be at least double the value after the merger.
This nothing but thiefs in suits again, happens so many times eg British Energy shareholders having the company more or less taken away from them and still running today!
This an informative article as I, for one, did not know there was a delay.
54

elizabeth wynne-McHardy,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 08:46:43
Any one who wanted to scupper the strong Nationalist lead here in Scotland would have kept silent and watched events unfold until the news 'broke' with the BBC. Scotland with no strong historic financial institutuions is a weakened Nation.So convenient to have a financial scpaegoat too; Who spoke to who at a dinner party?
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 08:48:46
78

The more "evemts unfold" the grubbier the UK government looks. This is not going to help their fortunes North of the border in fact its a further nail in the Unions coffin.
The only silver lining in this whole shoddy dirty affair.
56

jdships,

20/09/2008 09:03:30
29 Charles Linskaill,

See where you are coming from but one of the problems in this country of ours is we appear to have given up the democratic right to press for the truth.
We are being brainwashed into thinking that Short Selling is a new phenomena. Remember George Soros almost killed off the Pound through this activity.
We have a PM who makes out he is the master of all situations and yet in all the years he was Chancellor and attended so many G7 conferences etc etc he didn't see this disaster waiting to happen????
This man has the potential to bring this country (UK) to its knees if he and his Party are not removed from office
Another point is the deafening silence from the "high heid yins" of HBOS .
Come on guy's let's hear from you - please !!
57

Tim C,

Southern England 20/09/2008 09:07:08
Steady no.59 'a better way'; your "Sky mouthpiece" was presumably Mr Jeff Randall who commented in his newspaper (d Telegraph) yesterday that Broon answers questions by talking about what he believes the question should have been. This 'mouthpiece' said that the British people deserve better than this. "Ask Mr Bro*n if he is completely blameless for the mess in public finances and he dishes out a lecture on “doing the right thing”.

There’s no contrition, no admission of fallibility, no recognition of blunders – and most certainly no apology. This isn’t clever. It insults the electorate’s intelligence and helps explain why, like AIG, he’s doomed."
But our humble opinions only count at elections; although " it doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always gets in...".
58

1745,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 09:08:31
The Treasury was deeply involved in this merger although nothing was published. For TREASURY read GORDON BROWN. He did say that he would do "ANYTHING "to halt INDEPENDENCE.
Without our Bank it will be more difficult.
59

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 09:12:54
79 Spectator#

I don't know if the RBS merger with HBOS was ever considered. The rason i mention it is that if as the government says 'it will not allow ANY bank to go to the wall' and will utlise the reserves to ensure this then why take a decision the immesurable weakens the Scottish banking sector.

There will be those who say it 'won't' but the truth is that Scotland now has just 1 bank that like all other banks is liable in the future to subject to speculation..that will leve Scotland with not 1 national bank which is a completely unnaceptable situation for any country.

As for what is in Scotlands interests i would suggest that the creation of one huge international would be better placed to weather the current storms, particularly through diversification which a 'super bank' could easily maximise.

The point is that in taking this decision Scotland has been weakened whereas there was a possible opportunity to strengthen the sector but as far as i am aware this was not even considered...despite and i repeat despite the fact that the government looks like t has given surety to Lloyds.

It's a very strange situation.

60

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 09:16:01
I have to admit I was genuinely saddened by events but you Nats and I should stop kidding ourselves. The BoS stopped being a truly 'Scottish' bank at the time it was taken over by the Halifax. It being headquartered in Edinburgh was a figleaf to Scots' sensibilities then and the retainer of the name and the issuing of the banknotes is a figleaf now. Like all banks it is now an international monolith. At the time of the Halifax merger I was angered into closing an account I had with the then BoS and changing some services. This time I was going to move entirely to the RBS but, on reflection, what's the point? None of the banks gives a to*s about where they're based. Profit is the only thing they care about. If you think RBS would risk itself at the expense of maintining it's 'Scottish' identity, you're sadly deluding yourself.
61

Robie,

South 20/09/2008 09:17:39
Is it not obvious to all your bloggers that the bank is named Halifax, done of you complained when this non Scottish instituation was annexed, or for that matter when Natwest was also annexed. Grow up we live in a global economy. Do you really think that Scottish banks don't play such games.
62

MikeyG,

Carlisle 20/09/2008 09:28:32
In one of Thursday's papers Andy Hornby admitted having been in casual talks for nearly six years re a Lloyds merger. So how "innocent" is he? Has he just pulled off the biggest con since "The Sting"? AND he gets a seat on the new board - how has he got the gall to sit there presiding over 10s of thousands of job losses he instigated? He must be the biggest persona non grata ever..if he Lloyds policies were so good,why didn't he say to the HBoS board, "WE must try this!"...he's going to walk away with milliions and keep his job..any shareholder worth their salt must vote against this!!! This must be the most unethical thing anyone has done and got away with...only in Britain unfortunately.....agaain we're a laughing stock..shareholders must keep this man away. An english greengrocer brings down a Scottish institution and gets away with it. Sad times..
63

Nevsky,

leamington spa 20/09/2008 09:29:10
85 Robie#

Scottish Bank not Banks..there is only one in Scotland. Personally i don't think it is accepatble for any country to have just 1 bank. Germany, Switzerland and France have been tring for months to merge smaller with larger banks to prevent any international takeovers.

They don't subscribe to your 'so what' attitude when it comes to national interests.
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 09:31:34
85

Dont remember any Scottish financial institute taking over any English financial institute with the assistance of any Scottish government do you?
and certainly no during a period of constitutional crises or is that just coincidence?
65

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 09:35:18
Mr Skeoch would be better employed trying to improve the lot of the recipients of Standard Life pensions that he has consistently failed over the years. In any case, the people who were caught out were the short sellers who were quite legitimately gambling on a falling share price and had to close their positions at a price higher than they had hoped.
66

john z,

edinburgh 20/09/2008 09:35:28
Shareholders and HBOS employess should not just vote against this, they should each write a letter to their relevant MP, copied to Brrroooooon. Let these clowns in London know that the people of Scotland OR Halifax, are not going to sit back and see their banks and careers sold off just to make Gordon Brrrooooon look as though he took "decisive action" in time for his party conference.

HBOS WAS and IS a valid healthy profitable bank. This is all about Brrooonn playing unionist politics, and it stinks. The man is a traitor to Scotland.

Well done to the Scotsman for pushing this. At last standing up for the people of Scotland, and especially the Edinburgh banking sector.

Hold Brown and Darling to account. They are both most definitely now not welcome in Scotland.


67

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 20/09/2008 09:41:55
Dont worry its all part of the Labour party dirty tricks to weaken Scotlands position in the world markets. After all Gordon Brown was involved in the advanced talks and told LTSB that he would get the merger through.

Now where is my new shirt? the one with wing mirrors
68

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 09:42:15
Let's face it: when the HBoS managers were making flawed decisions on the Mound, no-one heard any comment from politicians, either in Westminster or Holyrood.

Now that thousands of jobs are on the line, I would say that the reaction by Holyrood is pathetic (naughty speculators.... good grief).

I also note that even Salmond is not trying to make the story into a Westminster / Holyrood squable, for once.
69

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 09:49:11
A few on here seem not to have noticed that HBOS was deeply into the most basic error of finance, borrowing short and lending long! I wonder how many managers in HBOS passed their 11+?
70

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 20/09/2008 09:49:46
When did Salmond first find out about the merger talks? Months ago it seems.
71

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 09:50:59
92 Tin Man#

You think government should takover all banks and manage them then do you?

Think you will find Westminster and the Bank of England actively encouuraged borrowing and mortgages to prop up a credit economy, was always going to go t##s up at some stage...

No more boom and bust says the great Brown the 'iron chancellor, the pruden one'...then boom and bust..what an absolute disgrace, liar and incompetant idiot that man is!
72

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 20/09/2008 09:52:47
Surely the final say in all this rests with the shareholders of both banks when asked to approve the merger.

If enough sense can be hammered into these "responsible" peoples heads then surely the bank merger can be avoided as it will surely be better for the competitive market in the longer term to have the choice of two reasonable sized banks rather one large dominant bank.

On the other hand,if a majority of shareholders vote for merger then they are as bad as the speculators and spivs in my opinion, so lets see if common sense or greed will prevail?

73

noswod,

Honestus 20/09/2008 09:55:01
Hornby should be sacked ! accountability should be brought back into management, the Harvard so called educated greengrocer has imploded 400 yrs of Edinburgh banking tradition. Think deeply about who was doing the shorting & rumours. We nicked Nat West from them and now they have got us back. Independence won't work with only one bank.
74

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:55:47
84 Draco-good post!Banks are faceless money making machines worldwide. The fact that our family has been using the same bank for 45 years here in SA means nothing. We no longer have a 'real' bank manager, and the phones are answered by computers. As with many other businesses nowadays they are colluding oligopolies that determine prices on the basis of-these are our lavish costs, this is the fat margin we want therfore this is the price. Markets and values are constantly manipulated by mega gamblers with stock prices at any particular time representing the'state of play' as opposed to any reflection of value or economic reality. Ruthless speculators cream the situation constantly whilst politicians are in reality too scared or too impotent to rectify the situation.
All rather sad really-capitalism in its true form is still the only practical economic system-pity it has been so perverted.
75

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:55:47
84 Draco-good post!Banks are faceless money making machines worldwide. The fact that our family has been using the same bank for 45 years here in SA means nothing. We no longer have a 'real' bank manager, and the phones are answered by computers. As with many other businesses nowadays they are colluding oligopolies that determine prices on the basis of-these are our lavish costs, this is the fat margin we want therfore this is the price. Markets and values are constantly manipulated by mega gamblers with stock prices at any particular time representing the'state of play' as opposed to any reflection of value or economic reality. Ruthless speculators cream the situation constantly whilst politicians are in reality too scared or too impotent to rectify the situation.
All rather sad really-capitalism in its true form is still the only practical economic system-pity it has been so perverted.
76

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 09:55:59
#95 Nevsky

No, I am not in favour of governments taking over banks, and I believe that the N. Rock take-over was a disgrace.

The fact remains that Lloyds TSB made rather better decisions than HBoS. Such is life.
77

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 09:56:10
94#

Merger talks and a bank being taken over in a few hours for chicken feed are a different matter, when did Westminster and Darling know as only they could have prevented it (which now seems like they could have)..after all Broon is on personal terms with the director of Lloyds isn't he?

78

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:56:22
One Hundred for the Union!
79

Sedov,

Scotand 20/09/2008 09:56:22
Who's the referee in all these take overs - the FSA or or the SFA?
80

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:56:23
One Hundred for the Union!
81

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:01:21
100 Tin Man#

To be honest i am a bit confused as the prevailing opinion now seems to be that HBOS was indeed a sound institution with no problems in securing funding...so how does that square with Lloyds?

If instead there had been short-sell on Lloyds it's possible this scenario could quite easily have happened to them, there was even speculation of a takover when the deal was announced as the markets were considering Lloyds to be under-financed.



82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:01:54
92

And just exactly what did HBOS do that ever other bank on the planet didnt?
83

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:02:56
100

Is that your personal opinion or your party political one?
84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:04:56
98

Ah nothing at all about this scenario rings any alarm bells with you at all eh? just business as usual and a bunch of spivs doing what they do best.
85

John S,

20/09/2008 10:07:30
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
48 days until 6th November the proposed date of the Glenrothes by-election
when Gordon Brown MP will step down from his constituency duties as acting MP for Glenrothes.
Gordon has done a splendid job and will be missed by his temporary constituents who have had the honour of having the top man (PM) representing them in the Parliament.
It will be a sad day for the people of Glenrothes on the 6th November but you have to understand that our Gordon has a nation to look after and I trust that his contribution to the well being of those who live in Glenrothes will not be forgotten.
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
86

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 10:11:04
#105 Nevksy

From what I read, Lloyds TSB have much better financial security than HBoS, therefore HBoS has become a target, both for short-sellling shares, and for a take-over. I don't think that short-selling works unless there is a basic underlying price-trend.

I would imagine that a take-over has eyed-up for a long time, and I would very much doubt that anyone would be intrested in taking-over a bank if it could not operate as an on-going concern.

It really boils down to Lloyds TSB having better judgement than HBoS, although whether a take-over is good for Lloyds is debatable.
87

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 10:11:13
106

'And just exactly what did HBOS do that ever other bank on the planet didnt?'

They borrowed 70% of their finance short term from the whole sale market and lent it out on 25 year or even interest only mortgages!
88

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:13:32
111

So? are you claiming they are now in the position they are in because of this? and if this is the cause of all their woes then why are other banks suffering as well?
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:14:39
110
"From what I read, Lloyds TSB have much better financial security than HBoS"

And where did you read that then?
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:16:59
111

In fact if this is so devestating why didnt they go under sooner?
Or is it that no one policy or decision is enough to put a bank into dire straights if it all goes wrong?
91

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 10:18:13
Anyway, if people want to make the proposed take-over into some kind of Scottish patriotic issue, then they can move their savings and loans into the RBS. Although that aren't doing too well, either.
92

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 10:18:26
110
Lloyds shareholders have already been promised shares instead of cash for their final dividend and a future dividend reduction of around 30%. Many Lloyds shareholders may well be unhappy that they are being asked to take in a Trojan horse! HBOS was badly managed and their business model fatally flawed. In addition they lost £4bn on buying worthless "securities" which they were too smart to examine.
93

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:19:21
110 Tin Man#

From what i understand RBS shares (priced about 50 under Lloyds) have been more stable than lloyds over the past 6 months in fact they are at the same price now as they were in June. (might be wrong was just a quick glance)

Just wonder why RBS was not consulted about this as it seems that they have been more consistent in the market than lloyds.
94

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:20:32
111

In fact all UK and US banks who jumped on the mortgage bandwaggon all came up with more or less the same strategy and policy.
They loaned out billions with no security and to whomever applied and at 3 to 5 times salary rates including Lloyds.
So no HBOS was in no different a position than most other banks and certainly no much worse of than Lloyds itself before there was a run on their share price.
95

Boswall,

20/09/2008 10:20:52
SNP Nonsence

1. Clydesdale Bank notes have been printed for years while the firm is under NAB Group control, don't remember you all creating a fuss over that. This just smacks of thinly veiled anti-Englishness that the SNP denies is it's raison d'etre.

2. You all want to replace the pound with an alternative currency anyway so what on earth do you have to whinge about?

3. For the conspiracy theorists it's rather inconvenient that HBOS may have lost its independence at some point in the next couple of years purely due to it's exposure to the UK housing market.

4. Outlawing short selling will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the reputation of Britain and the US as places to do business. Has any evidence emerged that this practice actually led to the fall of HBOS?
96

suchaparcelofrogues,

20/09/2008 10:22:00
What has happened to the comment numbers?
97

weh,

20/09/2008 10:22:12
What we are witnessing here is a direct attack by a foreign power upon the Scottish nation. You may recall Mr Bean "I will do ANYTHING to stop the Scots seceding."

Were TOTALLY on our own now folks-you had better believe it!
98

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:23:40
It is a patriotic issue but put it this way. If this was Paribas Bank and Lloyds and a there was a UK alternative which route do you think they would take?

Not the French one i am guessing.
99

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:24:21
95

Aye and you are entitled to your opinions the same as everybody else no matter how politically motivated and far from reality they are.
100

The Strategist,

20/09/2008 10:24:39
Come on the Scotsman...

Start a campaign to create a mutually owned and regional bank where the profits don't go to City fund managers but are fed back into Scottish businesses and supporting Scots generally.
101

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:27:35
95 Boswall#

'1. Clydesdale Bank notes have been printed for years while the firm is under NAB Group control, don't remember you all creating a fuss over that. This just smacks of thinly veiled anti-Englishness that the SNP denies is it's raison d'etre'

Clydesdale is not 1/5th of the Bank it was in Scotland and secondly because a bank prints notes..so what..no replacement for hard cash, infrastructure and profits is it?

Where do Clydesdale's profits go, the cash it makes from Scotland that is? Not to Edinburgh where the used to but to Australia. Wisen up a little, nothing to do with anti-Englishness.
102

inkster,

20/09/2008 10:30:10
Why a Ditherer should suddenly becomes a Machiavelli eludes me.

The Bank of Scotland died after it was taken over by the Halifax and the Halifax died when it was taken over by Andy Hornby.

Vultures only feed on dead or dying flesh and HBOS was about to be blitzed by the shorters.

Panic set in and Lloyds got lucky. Note they sold 5% of their shares yesterday.

HBOS - good riddance to bad rubbish.
103

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 10:30:47
94 suchaparcelofrogues,

"In fact all UK and US banks who jumped on the mortgage bandwaggon all came up with more or less the same strategy and policy.
They loaned out billions with no security and to whomever applied and at 3 to 5 times salary rates including Lloyds.
So no HBOS was in no different a position than most other banks and certainly no much worse of than Lloyds itself before there was a run on their share price."

Not true Lloyds raise most of their cash from depositors and are relatively immune from the vagaries of the money markets. By taking over HBOS they are weakening their financial position and have had to promise reduced dividends(40% of profits they say) to their own shareholders.
104

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:32:52
103

Mystery solved and all so obvious too makes you wonder why there are so many headlines in so many newspapers demanding answers to unanswered questions doesnt it?
and here we have all the answers here in a nutshell.
Well done inkster no flies on you eh.
105

Ugly George,

edinburgh 20/09/2008 10:35:12
It really is depressing to see so many people trying to manipulate this whole issue as some kind of conspiracy when it is manifestly obvous the most of these individuals have, at best, an extremely limited understanding of the factors.

As I have stated before, if HBOS was a sound forced into an unjustified takeover on the cheap by short selling or other moves then there is nothing to stop another bank (UK or overseas) putting in a better hostile bid particularly now that short selling is not an option. Why shouldn't they if HBOS is being sold at a knockdown price. Alternatively, if this is such a bad deal, the big institutional shareholders of HBOS will vote against it thus allowing HBOS to carry on as it is.

The issue of the share price rising above the 232p offer figure also demonstrates hoe these individuals don't understand what is going on. The offer involved Lloyds TSB shares. The 232p figure was based on the price of those at the time. However Lloyds TSB share price also rose on news of the US bail out meaning the the effective takeover offer was higher.

Anyway HBOS closed at 222p last night - still below the original offer price. This would indicate that the markets may think that, rather than picking up HBOS on the cheap, LLoyds TSB may have overpaid.

These conspiracy theories make no sense in the face of the realities of the situation.
106

Heed thi baw,

20/09/2008 10:35:27
It is amazing how so many comments are made as though HBOS is a company that solely trades in Scotland, is controlled by Scots, for Scots. It is a company that was bought over by a UK bank based in England. Bank of Scotland could easily have been dropped as a brand. Most of its customers and business is outside of Scotland. It's head office on the Mound houses about 50 people, if that. There are significant employed elsewhere in Edinburgh and throughout Scotland.

For the critics and sceptics of the Lloyds takeover, remember this, HBOS was days away from bankruptcy ala Lehman Brothers. It had £100 billion of company debt that had to be refinanced in the next 8 weeks, in a debt market that has evaporated overnight. The other alternative was for Government and the taxpayer to take over HBOS. I believe by-passing competition laws in order to save the bank was entirely the right move. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Maybe things would have been different if they had waited a few days and digested the US's news on cancelling bad debt.
107

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:36:05
104

Really their income was based mostly on depositors?
So where did the extra 12bn come from in order to make the bid? I mean lets face it relative to other banking business money deposits just doesnt cut into the big money does it?
It may be relatively secure but it aint relatively big in profit is it? so how come Lloyds has so much extra cash to throw around in these trying times?
108

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 10:37:50
11+ failed
You make a good point. If any group of shareholders is unhappy it is likely to be those of LLoyds TSB.
109

Si Tu Han,

Lausanne 20/09/2008 10:38:56
Where was the Board in all this? After appointing a young man with no real banking experience as CEO, they should have made sure that the "business model", over reliance on market funds, was properly monitored and the risks adequately assessed. I doubt if this happened. Similarly, what was the Audit Committee doing that allowed such a fragile structure? Once banks were able to synicate loans, they lost the incentive to apply normal prudential rules, thus paving the way for the events we are witnessing now.
I trust that in the postmortems to come, the poor governance of the bank will be exposed.
110

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:39:52
106

Yes Ugly we have already been down this road before and you were told more than once that the UK government would have stopped any other institute from making an offer and the fact that the whole deal went down very fast in fact almost overnight didnt leave a big window for anybody else to jump in or prepare a bid did it?
So how many more times and how many more logons are you going to use to ask this same question time and time and time again?
You grubby little troll.
111

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 10:40:19
108 suchaparcelofogues
That is exactly the point he is making. LLoyds used to have a better oan to asset ratio but has worsened it with more debt in the takeoverHBOS.
112

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 10:43:11
#108 Superparcel

Out of interest, can you please fully divulge the details for your theory that all banks are run by the same people, making the same decisions (I presume this runs to other fields of enterprise).

I blame the Illuminati. Yog-Sototh rules.
113

Heed thi baw,

20/09/2008 10:43:58
#111

You are dead right. The Board has sole responsibility for the success or failure of the bank. You've got to think that if there was a greater deterrent of malpractice i.e. custodial sentences, Board members may be more prudent on what they allow and not allow to happen within a company.
114

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 10:44:21
108 suchaparcelofrogues
"So where did the extra 12bn come from in order to make the bid?"
Don't be pathetic! There is no £12bn involved in cash the two businesses are merging and the shares in the merged business are given to Lloyds and HBOS shareholders with Lloyds holders getting 56% and HBOS 44%
115

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 10:45:29
112 suchaparcelofrogues
If you knew about takeovers and mergers you would know that the UK govt cannot stop a hostile offer that is the nature of hostile offers. Only the shareholders can do that. Also do you believe that a £12bn merger can be arranged overnight.

Once again you do not make any valid points or arguments, you reveal your lack of knowledge and understanding, you cannot answer serious points and because you cannot do this you resort to abuse and insults.
116

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 10:48:00
11+ failed
There is little point in trying to discuss issues with suchaparcelofrogues. He obviously has virtually no undersatnding of these issues. Then when he finds that his contributions can be refuted easily he merely resorts to abuse and insults.
117

Heed thi baw,

20/09/2008 10:49:12
By way the way - what did our beloved First Minister, who is an ex Chief Economist at RBS do to save HBOS? Answer - not a jot. Obviously his financial contacts in The City are not as strong as he makes out.
118

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 10:52:32
#199 Heed the Baw

Yes. Very odd to see the Scotsman more voiciferous on the issue than the Edinburgh gov.
119

,

20/09/2008 10:54:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
120

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:56:20
119 Heed#

Not in any position to do anything and well you know it, unless you know of some magical legislative powers the Scottish executive has..or maybe a secret bank to provide security..maybe they have legislative powers over the LSE that we don't know about.

Good to know you are adocating full independence so we can have control over such events though...another convert..great.
121

Kipling,

@Doom-Ray 20/09/2008 10:58:28
#96 & #108. Your use of the word 'spiv' (possibly influenced by its use by the Daily *m**l or the Daily X-press) is as incorrect as it has been in its use by these newspapers. The typical pictures show an informally dressed individual making legitimate --if immoral-- deals on the market.

In fact, the commonly understood usage is of a smartly dressed individual making illegitimate black-market deals, expensive goods at a reduced price. (And that didn't mean 'black-hole market deals'.)

Check out: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-spi3.htm.

Before the current economic meltdown these would probably have been individuals the editorial board of these newspapers would have loved to do business with. I recall no headlines targeting short-term trading before this time.


122

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:59:18
120 Tin man:

Perhaps because while Brown is preparing to crawl and creep to save his noose shadowed neck, Alex salmond has given up his wee holiday to the Ryder Cup to meet with all the bank bosses for 2 days... where is Darling and Brown and the Labour Lobby groups...mm...listening to Brown and suffeling for shadow cabinet posts and their jobs..and you support these people?
123

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 11:02:25
#124 nevsky

Glad to hear it, but surprised that they couldn't hold a meeting near the golf-course - I am sure they would all have been going, anyway.
124

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:03:55
113

What are you talking about thats the point he is making?
He is just like you he is making up his comments as he goes along and cant keep them consistant with any point he is trying to make.
In fact he probably is you.
The REAL FACT IS that Lloyds jumped onto the same mortgage bandwaggon as everybody else and if they hadnt they would have been left far behind in the boom days and to say different is to lie out of your teeth in order to find excuses to back up your other lies.
Now how come ONLY lloyds is ready and willing and available to put up 12.2bn in a bid for HBOS and why did the government use such haste to allow this merger coincidently just before the US government bailed out the markets and helped to recover the share prices of all banks and financial institutions?
And you dont even show a smidgen of suspicion at any of this in fact you go all out to try and prove there is nothing wrong.
Why? why is it so important to you that this has to be way and above board? why cant it be suspicious or dodgy? why are you trying so hard and having to lie so consistantly in order to try and tell us there is nothing wrong?
125

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 11:04:35
#121 superparcel

Is Brown a Cuthulu creature with dark tentacles?
126

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 11:05:51
superparcel

Please divulge the Ancient Wisdom.
127

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 11:07:58
There you go again accusing me of lying when everything I have mentioned is accurate. So what if HBOS shares were at 280p before - a year ago they were in the region of 1000p

If the takeover undervalued HBOS why did the board accept it and why do they feel their shareholders will accept it. Why doesn't Bank of Ireland, BNP Paribas, HSBC, Santander, etc come in with a better offer. None of them has such a large UK mortgage business as LLoyds TSB so the competition waiver would not apply.

Also - wrong again - I only have one account.

128

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:08:29
127

No he is far worse he is a unionist.
129

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:09:03
128

Whats it worth?
130

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 11:12:24
#131 superparcel

Indeed. If he really is Cathulu, he is a Unionist on a scale beyond our wildest dreams.

I take it that you are aware that the Dark One has it's tentacles on All the controls?
131

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:12:40
129

Why did the board accept it?
Exactly one of the many questions people all over the country are asking and one of the reasons why there is so much suspicion.
Why arent you suspicious? or more accurately why do you feel the need to pretend youre not?

Why doesn't Bank of Ireland, BNP Paribas, HSBC, Santander, etc come in with a better offer.

Oh maybe something to do with the fact that there is a competition regulation in place preventing them from doing so what you should be asking is why didnt it kick in for Lloyds?
132

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:13:59
129


"Also - wrong again - I only have one account"

Thats exactly what AM2 claims.
133

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:15:04
133

Would that include the control on the back of your head?
134

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 11:18:06
#136 superparcel

I have checked, but I don't have any controls on the back of my head. You are the conspiracy-theorist, but you are leaving the details disappointingly vague.
135

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:21:08
137

What do you care youre a troll.
136

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 11:24:14
#138 superparcel

That's the spirit!

Here we go.....

No, you're a troll! :-P (you also have the jandies).
137

Marga,

Fife 20/09/2008 11:27:41
As regards other possible buyers, a quick look at the Internet finds that as recently as July this year there were also rumours of a buyout of HBOS by Banco Santander, National Australian Bank, BBVA, in some sort of consortium.

Now Banco Santander, owner of Abbey, has been quoted as being extremely annoyed at missing out on the chance to bid, as they apparently expected competition regulations to block any move on their part, and lo and behold these are waived for the bank of the government's choice. Don't know how Abbey is doing under their stewardship, but as regards soundness, Spanish banks seem to be OK.

So to this amateur it doesn't look like free and open trading on the market took place, nor that the buyout was exactly an emergency. It or something like it had been on the cards for a long time, long enough for plans to be made and for opportunities to be sought to put them into place.
138

Ugly George,

edinburgh 20/09/2008 11:29:29
134suchaparcelofrogues
Wrong again - the competition regulations would not have appllied to these banks as thay do not have the same amount of mortgage business in the UK as Lloyds TSB

I mentioned this in my previous post
139

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 11:30:37
All that's needed to stop this nonsense is for all the individual shareholders to vote against it - the shareprice and therefore LTSB's offer grossly undervalues the bank (£12bn for around £600bn of assets - stinks).

I sold a chunk of my shares last April at over £11 a pop, now they're £2-odd. What's the true value? I dont' know, but it certainly isn't at the £2-3 mark.

And how on earth can the new board (assuming the deal goes through) countenance keeping ASDA boy on? If you're not a board member, if you completely fail to do your job properly, you get sacked, not given a £2m "golden hello".

Grrr.
140

tartan army 2222,

20/09/2008 11:40:48
"Sources close to Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, insisted that, despite the claims coming from the Bank of England, if the takeover deal had not been put on the table, there would have been a run on HBOS and it would have gone under."

Who to believe? Alistair Darling or the Bank of England? Hmmm.
141

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 11:45:03
suchaparcel (134): "Why doesn't Bank of Ireland, BNP Paribas, HSBC, Santander, etc come in with a better offer."

They still can make an offer. You'll notice they're not rushing to bid.

"Oh maybe something to do with the fact that there is a competition regulation in place"

No government cares about competition regulation at present: they're more worried that the financial system is on the brink of collapse. Instead of conspiracy theory, why not apply Occam's razor? HBOS became dependent on the wholesale credit market for its expansion, and has been refinancing its debt at ever higher levels since the credit crunch began. Its current technical solvency is irrelevant -- in any case, banks have ceased to believe one another's balance sheets. For that reason, very few banks would be interested in HBOS at the moment. For Lloyds, there is the possibility of enormous advantage; there's also the possibility that it will be taken down by HBOS debt. As I think Ugly George has suggested, there is good reason for Lloyds shareholders to reject this.
142

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:45:31
141

See now we are back to your consistancy again didnt you just support post 104
11+
"Not true Lloyds raise most of their cash from depositors and are relatively immune from the vagaries of the money markets"

with your post at 113? and now you claim at post 129

"Wrong again - the competition regulations would not have appllied to these banks as thay do not have the same amount of mortgage business in the UK as Lloyds TSB

I mentioned this in my previous post"

So you either agree with yourself posting as 11+ or you have just contradicted yourself after supporting yourself at post 113.
Yes it is all confusing to me as well.
It must be really difficult trying to keep up with yourself as a multi logon troll.

So which is it do Lloyds make their takeover money from depositors or by selling mortgages?
Make your mind up or stop giving away the fact that your making it up as you go along.
143

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 11:47:02
140
The option is still open for a huge number of banks You are perhaps correct about Santander - I forgot that it owned Abbey National.

142 As I keep saying, if HBOS has been undervalued there is still an opportunity for any one of a host of banks to put in a better hostile offer. Perhaps, now that the bail out in the US has stabilised markets one of them will in which case Lloyds may be forced to improve its offer if it thinks that is now justified.

The general point I am trying to make to the conspiracy theorists is that these theories do not make sense as any such conspiracy (if it did exist) cannot be guaranteed to work because other factors can come into play.

It is like those conspiracy theorists who believe Princess Diana was murdered by the driver of a white Fiat that allegedly bumped into the Mercedes. If you were wanting to murder someone you would come up with a plan that was more guaranteed to work.

Similiarly what would be the point of launching some supposed conspiracy against HBOS which allegedly undervalues it if others can see this clearly and step in to wreck it.
144

getinnnn,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:47:15
"both the Bank of England and FSA failed HBOS."....
Add to that the U.K government: They were too eager to push this through alright; due to their bias interest towards the U.k over the interests of Scotland. There MUST be an enquiery and to look for whichever highup inside HBOS was accepting "brown paper envelopes". The government should not have waived competition rules in any event...
145

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:48:18
141

And how do you know of hand how much each of these banks has in mortgage business comparred to the rest?
and HBOS wasnt only a mortgage lending bank it also dealt heavily in business banking which was the BOS part of the institute.
Christ youre full of sh*t.
146

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 11:50:38
Parcel - unfortunately as always with Web 2.0 there's many, many posters who have picked up a few big words from the 'papers and think that means they know what they're talking about.

HBOS may (that's MAY) have been facing some short-term liquidity issues, and yes, they did use the wholesale markets to fund some deals, but so did virtually every bank in the Western world. Long-term there didn't appear to be any issues. This deal stinks to high heaven.
147

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:50:40
144

There you go again with your own suppositions and theories.
Fine we know what you want to believe but it doesnt answer any of the difficult questions does it?
148

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 11:52:46
Marga (140): "Now Banco Santander, owner of Abbey, has been quoted as being extremely annoyed at missing out on the chance to bid, as they apparently expected competition regulations to block any move on their part"

I doubt that there would be any objection at all to Santander making a bid -- if the British government is willing to countenance a Lloyds deal, then they would accept anything. Since the deal has not yet been concluded, there's no reason at all why they could not now begin talks. However, Spain is currently also seeing a property-price crash, and Santander (together with RBS) spent lots of money last year buying ABN-Amro, so I doubt they would want to take on HBOS' frightening liabilities.
149

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 11:53:48
147 - trust me, the share price at the minute is absolutely no reflection of the value of the business - I'll reiterate: £12bn offer for over £600bn of assets.

How can that be a reflection of 'value' to the HBOS shareholders (of which I am one)? Fantastic value to Lloyds and also grants them a very strong market position should it go through.

All HBOS shareholders should vote against this, although that relies on the institutional investors voting against it too.
150

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 11:54:24
#33 connaughtboy

I didn’t say that, and nor would I. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

This whole situation is lamentable: the business model HBOS adopted in recent years, the hedge funds’ pack attacks, the FSA’s impotence, and so on.

The job losses will be severe and nobody’s taking any pleasure from that. TSB/BoS and Lloyds/Halifax branch rationalisation and the fact that the function of The Mound will inevitably be downgraded - none of this is welcome.

But given that it occurred, at least a run on HBOS branches was avoided. The Lloyds takeover is certainly preferable to nationalisation, and the market has responded accordingly. Putting emotion aside, it’s the best of a bad situation, and that was clearly Skeoch’s basic contention.

As usual, you CyberNats have impeccable 20:20 hindsight and are quick to apportion blame in the most politically opportune direction: South. Your keenness to score political points in such a situation does you no favours.
151

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 11:56:23
150

Of course it does and so does the fact that all of the usual party politcal suspects are trying so hard to tell us there is nothing wrong with the deal.
That alone is enough to make anybody suspicious.
Any normal ordinary poster has questions and doubts but not any of these guys or is it just one guy or one office with multi logons?
Government propaganda machine working overtime perhaps?
152

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 11:57:59
145 suchaparcelofrogues
Yet again you reveal your lack of understanding and if you had some knowledge of these matters you would be able to ascertain there is no inconsistency. when you state "which do lloyds make there takeover money from depositors or selling mortgages"

The simple answer is that they do both. It may come as a surprise to you but that is what banks do. The crucial part is the loan to deposit ratio.

Also you have been informed that the takeover is a share takeover - ie in the form of LLoyds shares so it is not having to find £12bn in cash as you seem to think.

Also - I have told you already that I have only one account but you accuse me of "multi logon" and you are the one accusing me of lying.
153

Alfie Bett,

20/09/2008 11:59:47
#60 Agree with your sentiments entirely as a longtime independence supporter I had a sense of forboding when the merger of BOS and Halifax occurred and that from being a bank with a reputation of solid sound investment the creature that was created,like the other banking groups also being formed embraced the"greed is good" ethos of Thatcherism and rampant deregulated capitalism which Blair and Brown in their lust for power failed to put the brakes on and the end result is what we have now and as always the people at the bottom of the ladder get the sh-tty end of the stick while the Del boys make a killing.
154

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:00:16
153

And yet there are a few people on here trying so hard to tell us its such a good deal and no wonder HBOS went for it never mind the fact that the HBOS chairman is going to pocket 2 million personally while most of the shareholders get shares valued at 232p.
Whoopee doo. Lets hope they have the sense to bin this offer.
155

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:01:23
suchaparcel (151): "There you go again with your own suppositions and theories."

Unlike, for example, you?

"Fine we know what you want to believe but it doesnt answer any of the difficult questions does it?"

It answers all of them: there is no English conspiracy to destroy HBOS. English conspiracy is clearly the answer you desperately wish to reach, and any criticism based on financial knowledge, whether from Ugly George or others, is unwelcome for precisely that reason. Ask yourself this: if the English wish to ruin Scotland's economy, why not encourage HBOS to fail, instead of encouraging a bid from Lloyds?

HBOS massively expanded its mortgage business via the wholesale credit market and is now paying the price. Lloyds is willing to make a bid because it avoided the wholesale credit market (to a fairly large extent) and is now relatively cash-rich. They're doing this because it will give them a powerful position within the UK mortgage market, although there's a risk that they too will fail, given HBOS's mountain of debt.
156

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 12:01:30
153 Roscoe
If the situation is as you claim - £600bn assets being sold for £12bn every financial institution in the world plus no doubt a few billionaires, private equity groups etc. would be falling over themselves to put in a better offer.
157

soothsayerIII,

20/09/2008 12:02:14
Whilst this is hopefully a step in stopping this sell out, would Mr Standard Life like to put some effort into getting fund managers that might be able to do better than a low rate savings account.
158

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:08:03
156

Even if they do both it doesnt tie in with any previous statements or excuses does it?
The arguement above was using the excuse that lloyds specialises in raising its cash by depositors in order to back up his made up point that Lloyds wasnt adversely financially affected by the mortgage crises.
Now your saying that Lloyds does have a significant stake in the mortgage market which means they must have been hit just as badly as the rest.
So again the question has to be asked how come Lloyds has 12.2 billion to spare when its already been stated on here that no other bank has made a bid because they cant afford to due to the mortgage crises?
Obviously you dont agree with the answer above that Lloyds specialises in depositor banking.

Like I said the arguements and excuses are comming thick and fast and all contradict each other proving its all being made up as it goes along.
159

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:10:44
160

Nobody I see on these blogs has said there is an "English conspiricy" I have seen speculation to suggest there may be a collusion between the market Lloyds and the UK government and nothing you have posted presents any evidence or reason to suppose there isnt.
Like I said you are entitled to your opinions just stop trying to present them as facts.
160

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:12:40
suchaparcel (163): "Now your saying that Lloyds does have a significant stake in the mortgage market which means they must have been hit just as badly as the rest."

Not so -- Ugly George is correct. The difference is that Lloyds mostly funded its mortgage loans with depositors' cash, in the same way that building societies have traditionally acted. In contrast, HBOS funded many loans with loans in the wholesale market. It is the latter that is the crucial difference, and your ignorance of this basic distinction is at the root of your incomprehension.

161

Vox Cavalier,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 12:17:08
Once upon a time, in 1973, there was a bank called the Scottish Co-operative Bank based in Glasgow. It was, in effect, an organ of the Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society (SCWS) based out of these beautiful old buildings (now flats) on the south-east side of the Kingston Bridge. The SCWS was a direct descendent of the Fenwick Weavers co-op founded in 1769 in Ayrshire – a world first. In 1973, the SCWS and its associated Co-op societies were possibly the biggest employer in Scotland. This bank, too, indulged in imprudent lending practices (perhaps it was led by executives in the thrall of spivs & speculators, too). It got baled out by the CWS Bank based in Manchester and control of the whole SCWS organisation passed to the CWS in Manchester in a "merger". Then the “synergies” became apparent – top jobs centralised in Manchester, pay-offs in Glasgow.
162

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:17:28
160

Every bank expanded its mortgage base there was a mortgage boom market for years and the banks did very nicely out of it for a while but now the chickens have come home to roost but that applies to all the banks not just HBOS and includes LLoyds as has been confirmed by Ugly.
So the questions still remain.
Why is Lloyds the only bank to put up a bid?
Why has it been accepted and pushed through obscenely quickly?
Why was there no issue with the competition regulation when this merger is now going to corner 24% of the entire UK banking market?
Did the Government know the US government was going to bail out their financial institutes in advance? and if so which seems likely why did they allow the merger to go through so quickly and before the bail out was announced?

And most importantly why arent you in the least suspicious when so many are and why are you trying so so hard to prove there is nothing wrong when there so obviously is?
163

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:18:10
suchaparcel (164): "Nobody I see on these blogs has said there is an "English conspiricy""

The subtext, however, is fairly clear.

"Like I said you are entitled to your opinions just stop trying to present them as facts."

I, and many other posters, have provided careful arguments, based on facts. You have merely resorted to insult. In your last post replying to Ugly George, you showed that you were unaware of the dependence on the wholesale credit market which formed the root of HBOS and NR's demise. It would be rational, if posting on the credit crunch, for you to learn precisely why it is a problem.
164

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:18:54
161

Unless the Government runs interference using present legislation to block other bids.
Keep making that point and I will keep making this one.
165

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 12:19:30
#161 - George. HBOS has assets of over £600bn. LTSB have made an offer currently worth just over £12bn. Both of those statements are fact.
166

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:20:25
suchaparcel (167): "Every bank expanded its mortgage base there was a mortgage boom market for years and the banks did very nicely out of it for a while but now the chickens have come home to roost but that applies to all the banks not just HBOS and includes LLoyds as has been confirmed by Ugly."

I've just explained why this is fundamentally incorrect in post 165. To repeat, the banks which funded expansion via the wholesale credit markets are in problems. The banks which funded mortgages via depositors' funds are relatively safe.
167

Dijit,

Glasgow 20/09/2008 12:24:45
Am having difficulty with believing Lloyds could evaluate HBOS, come to a decision, gain approval by their board & make an offer in say 12-24 hours.
If as previously reported, talks had been going on for 3 weeks HBOS shareholders may well feel robbed by the failure to alert the market & suspend their shares.
Three weeks previously it would have been unthinkable that monopolies & mergers would wave this through with a nod & a wave.
Scots may wonder if this loss of Scotland's 2nd largest company, along with the inevitable job losses and transfer of ownership over the border is politically motivated.
We currently have Alex Salmond seeking additional fiscal powers for Holyrood and evangelising about Scotland's financial self sufficiency. Gordon, as always is a bit short of cash in the treasury lately, (no fault of his of course) but not keen on potentially losing such a large payer of corporation tax, now or in the future.
So, and remember Gordon is taking credit for engineering this deal, he decides I'll teach that laddie Alex a lesson with a warning shot across his bows and snaffle one of his flagships (HBOS.)
Think about it and examine the timeline, no-one could do due diligence on this scale in days or even weeks. The alternative would simply be that Lloyds are being extremely reckless?




168

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:25:14
168

No you havent there is nothing careful about your arguements at all its all supposition and partly wishful thinking and is backed up with nothing of any substance.
Christ you cant even keep your claims and those of uglies or anybody elses consistant. You are contradicting each other even though you are all trying to preach the same message and oh so desperately too.
So again I ask you why do you insist on pretending you have no suspicions at all over this matter?
You certainly havent presented anything which can be used as proof positive that its all above board so where does you conviction come from?

I am convinced there is something wrong but I dont have any evidence to present just questions that none of you can answer.
169

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:26:27
suchaparcel (167): "And most importantly why arent you in the least suspicious when so many are and why are you trying so so hard to prove there is nothing wrong when there so obviously is?"

I'm not suspicious because of Occam's razor: (i) there is no other bid because HBOS has vast debt, (ii) the government has abandoned regulation because they are desperate to avoid the collapse of a high-street. You, on the other hand, seem to view this as some dark conspiracy in which the British government is attempting to damage Scotland.

There is, of course, something wrong: the world financial system is near collapse because of its reliance on debt.
170

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:27:10
171

"I've just explained why this is fundamentally incorrect in post 165. To repeat, the banks which funded expansion via the wholesale credit markets are in problems. The banks which funded mortgages via depositors' funds are relatively safe. "

Really now prove it or its nothing more than your opinion.
Christ havent you even worked that out yet?
171

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 12:29:56
Under normal circumstances, borrowing short-term cash on the wholesale markets would not be problematic for the banks. However, the 'credit crunch' (god, I hate that phrase) essentially amounted to the whole market getting the jitters about how able banks they'd loaned money to were to pay them back. So the inter-bank market (the wholesale market) siezed up. Banks that were far too reliant on wholesale funds (e.g. NR) became 'illiquid' because they couldn't borrow the cash that had previously been in ready supply.

Bearing that in mind, HBOS allegedly had £100bn of short-term funding coming up for renewal, and in the turmoil of this week may indeed have had bother (in that they may have had to pay more interest than before). IF the deal was, as all the high heid yins say, only brokered over the last few days as an emergency option, it might have made sense.

However, the US govt.'s injection of massive capital into the markets has increased banking confidence worldwide and the markets are already loosening up a bit with banking shares also rising again (so far!). Also, depending on what story you believe, LTSB and HBOS have been in talks for weeks or months. Take those two factors into account and you've got a very strong smell of BS as to why the deal was pushed through with such alarming speed.

I'm not suggesting for one second there's some kind of anti-Scottish agenda, but there is definitely something rotten in the state of Denmark. Just my opinion though, not like I know anything.
172

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:30:44
Dijit (173): "Think about it and examine the timeline, no-one could do due diligence on this scale in days or even weeks."

At present, no-one can do due diligence in any case. Many of my senior students are now senior quants, and all mention the fundamental inability to measure risk in other banks (or even their own) at present.

"The alternative would simply be that Lloyds are being extremely reckless?"

I would agree. I believe Lloyds thinks it's worthwhile because either (i) it will work, leaving them in an extremely strong position, or (ii) it won't work, in which case the world financial system is probably going down in any case.
173

Ugly George,

edinburgh 20/09/2008 12:35:06
170 Roscoe
If you believe that then take the following action

1 hire a financial consultant and set up Roscoe P Coltrane private equity group.
2 Approach a bank not involved - RBS or Barclays. Tell them you know of business with £600bn in assets which is being sold for £12bn. Ask them to borrow 15bn.
3 Hire a team of merger analysts and launch a hostiole £13bn cash bid for HBOS. As you have no financial business competition rules do not apply.
4 Once HBOS shareholders have accepted your obviously better offer sell the £600bn of assets and pay back the £13bn to the bank.
5 This will leave you with a personal fortune of £577bn (less a few million in fees and interest)
6 You would now be by far the richest person in the world with a personal fortune more than 3 times bigger than your nearest rival.

The reality is that you have only quoted the assets of HBOS - you have not quoted the debts and liabilties - that is why your analysis is so mistaken and faulty.
174

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:35:12
175

"I'm not suspicious because of Occam's razor: (i) there is no other bid because HBOS has vast debt,"

ALL THE F*CKING BANKS have large debts every bank has taken a hit with the boom and bust mortgage fiasco and until there was a run on the share price of HBOS they were in no worse condition than most other banks including Lloyds AND THAT IS A DOCUMENTED FACT.

"ii) the government has abandoned regulation because they are desperate to avoid the collapse of a high-street."

That is the official labour party line on the reason for breaking their own regulations so why are you so desperate to believe this is true from such a sleaze ridden corrupt government?
Why do you believe this is true? why dont you have any doubts at all?

"You, on the other hand, seem to view this as some dark conspiracy in which the British government is attempting to damage Scotland."

I on the other hand have SPECULATED that there might be political motivation involved in the Governments decision in allowing the merger to go through.

Now in these trying constitutional times why dont you explain to me why that cant even be a possibility?
175

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:36:45
suchaparcel (176): ""I've just explained why this is fundamentally incorrect in post 165. To repeat, the banks which funded expansion via the wholesale credit markets are in problems. The banks which funded mortgages via depositors' funds are relatively safe. "

Really now prove it or its nothing more than your opinion."

I sometimes complain about my more obtuse students, but your responses are astonishing. How I begin when you are so fundamentally ignorant? Have you not noticed that all of the former building societies which converted to banks are in deep trouble (or have already fallen), whilst traditional building societies such as Nationwide are relatively secure? Had you not wondered why? Do you even know what the wholesale credit markets are?
176

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 12:41:20
180 - fair enough George, don't listen to somebody who actually knows what they're talking about, just lapse into condescending garbage.

That's the way to come out on top in life.
177

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 12:45:01
suchaparcel (181): "every bank has taken a hit with the boom and bust mortgage fiasco"

I'll try again: banks which funded large numbers of mortgages via the wholesale credit market (i.e. borrowing from other banks) have taken a much bigger hit than banks which funded mortgages via depositors' funds: this is the heart of the credit crunch. Thus Lloyds is much better placed than all of the former building societies because it was one of the former.

"I on the other hand have SPECULATED that there might be political motivation involved in the Governments decision in allowing the merger to go through."

There is political motivation: the rational wish of the government for a high-street bank to avoid failure.

"Now in these trying constitutional times why dont you explain to me why that cant even be a possibility?"

There is an important distinction between the possible and probable. It is indeed possible that there are dark reasons lying behind this deal. If you want to believe this, then fine. It might be more useful for you to learn some basic finance first, however.
178

Hamish Scott,

20/09/2008 12:46:34
I don't mind admitting I don't know what's been going on but the suggestion that Brown has been meddling for political rather than financial reasons is all too plausible. If the new 'superbank' moves its headquarters from Edinburgh to London does that mean all its income and the corporation tax it pays counts as English rather than Scottish and thus tips Scotland's 'balance sheet' in a negative direction?
179

Rosscobhoy,

20/09/2008 12:51:49
Seen a lot of comments on here saying the shareholders should reject this. I don't think it will matter if all the small people do. Thanks to the recent rights issue in particular, the average Joe with shares means nothing. If the institutions want this to go through, and the underwriter of the recent rights issue in particular, it will go through. Sad state of affairs. "Democracy" indeed. Something definitely stinks about the whole thing, and it isn't the short sellers who done it all.
180

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 12:54:07
Ugly George,edinburgh
Time for me to advise you to give up on suchaparcelofrogues it is not possible to discuss with a fool, he doesn't have the sense to know the limit of his very limited understanding. Anyone daft enough to think that Lloyds is stumping up £12bn is not worth the bother especially since it has already been explained to him. And suchaparcelofrogues I am a shareholder in both Lloy and HBOS and I am seriously thinking of voting against the deal as a Lloy shareholder.
181

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 12:55:13
170 Roscoe
PS
Following my previous post 180 I thik it is only fair and reasonable that I should get a 1% commission for giving you the idea. I'm not greedy - £5.7bn will do me nicely.
182

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 12:59:21
182

I know all the Banks are in trouble its all over the news are you asking me if I know to what extent each and every bank is in trouble? is that the sort of information they divulge to the public then?
How did you find out the extent to which every single bank was in trouble? is it public knowledge?
183

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:00:13
Fair enough George - I'll give you a shout when it's all in place!

I admit the assets/price comparison is very simplistic, but I was trying to make it simple for non-banking folk to understand. In comparison to some other banks, and in relation to their total balance sheet, HBOS' exposure to the wholesale market was limited. The danger might have come if all the depositors called up the bank's liabilities (their deposits) at once. That's always a risk for all banks, but it didn't happen.
184

brownlie,

20/09/2008 13:01:46
As some-one who is financially naive - which makes my bank very rich - perhaps one of you experts might like to comment?

It appears to me that because we are told that negotiations between Lloyds and HBOS have been going on for some time - presumably in the knowledge that the UK Government would give the go-ahead - that there was ample opportunity for those in the know to buy shares in the sure and certain knowledge that the shares would inevitably go up in the event of a merger.

Does that mean that the UK government gave the two parties involved assurances that they would "bend the rules" to facilitate the merger?

If that were not the case it would be futile for the two parties involved to even talk of a merger.
185

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 13:02:23
185 Hamish#

Plausible and possible considering Browns almost fanatical obsession with Scotland remaining in the Union.

If this was in any way a consideration or the consequences for Scotland are indeed so serious then Brown would go down as the very worst that Scotland has ever produced.
186

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:04:11
187

I think the reason why you are having such difficulties in dealing with me is because I know exactly what the extent of my knowledge is and stay well inside of it unlike you bunch of lying waffling toerags. I dont make up my statements as I go along but then I am not trying to cover anything up or make excuses I am trying to find out if there is more to this story or not and the more I see the usual suspects trying so so hard to pull the wool over our eyes I have to say there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.
If your going to lie and waffle at least keep it consistant. The shear inconsistancy is an insult to the collective intelligencies of the true bloggers on here.
187

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:06:18
Brownlie - unfortunately the first time anybody other than those at the very, very top knew anything about this was when the BBC leaked the story. Even after the BBC 'leak' the parties concerned were saying "no comment" rather than confirming or denying.
188

Rickie,

Limbo - formerly known as Glenrothes & Levenmouth 20/09/2008 13:07:08
Simplistic view of the dodgy share selling deals;

Person 'borrows' your bike then sells it.

Buyer of bike breaks it and returns it for less money.

Person gives you back your broken bike and pockets the money left from selling and buying.

Question: How many criminal offences have been commited here?

Answers on a Scottish £5 note to Scotland Yard (ironic name isn't it!)
189

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 13:13:19
185 Hamish#

According to their site HBOS paid in 2006 £1.65 billion to the treasury. Don't know the inns and out but certainly with the HQ based in England any future Scottish treasure would not get anywhere near that ammount of tax take.

190

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:14:18
184

Well I certainly wont learn any basic finance from you unless its dodgy dealing on the markets and how to cover it up.

"There is political motivation: the rational wish of the government for a high-street bank to avoid failure."

Again the party politcal line almost word perfect and from such an honest reliable unpeachable sourse too.

The sheer inconsistancy of the Governments response to this crises to their response with Northern Rock doesnt really gel with this line though does it?
In FACT let me use that word again so you know what it means FACT HBOS wasnt in nearly as much trouble as Northern Rock and as all parties and experts agree could have ridden out the spiv attack at least until the US bailed out the market and even longer if necessary.
Now that begs the question as to did the UK government know in advance that the US government was going to bail out the market and did it influence their decision to hasten this merger and if so why?
Was the reason financial or constitutional?
191

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 13:14:20
Roscoe (177): "Bearing that in mind, HBOS allegedly had £100bn of short-term funding coming up for renewal, and in the turmoil of this week may indeed have had bother (in that they may have had to pay more interest than before)."

This is the crucial part: they have been refinancing large debts at ever higher prices since the beginning of the credit crunch: effectively, they have been bleeding to death. Possibly another merger/takeover would have occurred if events had not come to a head, and possibly they could pull through if the US intervention has truly begun the recovery. The alternative is fairly dark, however.
192

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 13:18:27
So from what i can see:

England gets a superbank
Scotland loses Bank of Scotland and is left with one national bank.
Scotland and England loose jobs and branches.
Scotland (Edinburgh) loses (and England) expertise with probable emigration of the best staff to Lloyds HQ.
English Treasure swollen with the possible profits froma 'super-bank'
Scotland (independent) would lose possibly £2 billion of revenue.

But for the unionists it's all ok, they are letting them in a show to appease the jocks...print some paper with the word Scotland on it!
193

Hamish Scott,

20/09/2008 13:19:05
#198
Nevsky - thanks for that. If future GERS, to take one example, now deduct something like that from Scotland's 'income' that would be quite a difference. I'm not saying that's definitely the motivation for Brown but it could have been.
194

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 13:25:27
202 Hamish#

I hope not for his sake. It would be the most despicable act of a despicable union but then who better to instigate it than a Scot.
195

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:25:53
200

And there it is again in case you missed it again.


Roscoe (177): "Bearing that in mind, HBOS allegedly had £100bn of short-term funding coming up for renewal, and in the turmoil of this week may indeed have had bother (in that they may have had to pay more interest than before

"MAY INDEED"

This is the crucial part: they have been refinancing large debts at ever higher prices since the beginning of the credit crunch: effectively, they have been bleeding to death. Possibly another merger/takeover would have occurred if events had not come to a head, and possibly they could pull through if the US intervention has truly begun the recovery. The alternative is fairly dark, however.

"AND POSSIBLY"

Followed by the statement of fact

"THE ALTERNATIVE IS FAIRLY DARK HOWEVER"

No chance of any other alternatives that are not so dark? fairly light? bright? shiny? positive?
No chance the ONLY alternative is fairly dark.

Youre giving trolls a bad rep.
196

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:26:35
Fairfax, I see your point at 200, however "bleeding to death" is a little extreme given the sums involved. As you appear to understand economics, you'll know that as the supply increases (i.e. as the banks stop soiling their pants and start lending out funds again) the price comes down. In simplistic terms HBOS were dealing with short-term inflationary pricing, which, had they been allowed to ride things out, could reasonably be expected to fall again.

A small proportion of HBOS' funding came from the wholesale markets, but HBOS has more cash deposits than any other UK bank, unlike Northern Rock for example who were reliant on wholesale funds for about 70% (not completely sure about that figure TBH, but it won't be miles off) and hence were absolutely hung out to dry by the drying up of short-term credit.

That's what I don't understand - to me it seems to contradict all the talk of the sky falling in. Just an observation.
197

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 13:27:27
199 suchaparcelofrogues
OK, against my better judgement. Do you still think lloy is stumping up £12bn to give HBOS shareholders as you have stated on at least 3 occasions? Just point out for my benefit one inconsistency or made up statistic in what I have posted. If lloy had not stepped in the next stop for HBOS was the same as happened to NR a withdrawl of both retail and wholesale funds.
198

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 13:27:53
suchaparcel (199): "The sheer inconsistancy of the Governments response to this crises to their response with Northern Rock doesnt really gel with this line though does it?"

What inconsistency? Our incompetent government initially tried to arrange a takeover for NR, but its debt was so large, and its assets so low, that nobody was interested. HBOS has large debts, but is a much sounder business, hence the possibility of a commercial takeover. Would you really have preferred nationalization for HBOS?

"In FACT let me use that word again so you know what it means FACT HBOS wasnt in nearly as much trouble as Northern Rock and as all parties and experts agree could have ridden out the spiv attack at least until the US bailed out the market and even longer if necessary."

Your first statement is true: NR was in much more trouble -- that's why HBOS has lasted a year after the credit crunch, whereas NR lasted merely weeks. Unfortunately it's not all fact: all parties and experts are not in agreement here at all -- in particular the HBOS board did not share your sanguine view, for otherwise they would not have been exploring a takeover. The short-sellers also did not share your view. It's certainly possible that HBOS might pull through, and their shareholders can still take that view and refuse the Lloyds deal. If they're wrong, however, then total collapse would be highly likely at the next major refinancing of the wholesale credit debt.
199

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 13:28:29
I am sure it will fill the unionists with secret joy..being the despicable and detestable lot that some of them are.

Quite frankly i am disgusted with some of their comments. Some of them can hardly seem to contain their joy at this news and the inability of Scotland to do anything about it!
200

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 13:30:11
11+ failed (207): "OK, against my better judgement."

We're probably both wasting our time with suchaparcelofrogues. Let's see if he replies to your point.
201

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:30:44
207 - to answer your question, the offer for HBOS was on an all-shares basis, with the 'cash value' of those shares being around £12bn. No cash would exchange hands, with HBOS shareholders being offered LTSB shares porportionate to their HBOS holding.

No cash would change hands.

Still stinks though.
202

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:30:45
207

I honestly dont understand a word of that post can you rephrase it or clarify it?
203

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:37:10
208

None of your limited options appear to be viable or even necessary.
Which is why so many people are suspicious.
why are you still trying to peddle the obvious lie that there were only 2 possible outcomes a merger or oblivion?

Oh no doubt the party political experts wouldnt be able to agree with the non affiliated experts right enough but then I am more inclined to listen to the non affiliated ones how about you?
204

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:42:28
215

Key members of the two banks' board agreed to meet. Daniels and Blank argued that 300p was too high a price for Lloyds to pay. Soon after 9pm, the deal was signed. With little negotiating power, Hornby and Stevenson had agreed to sell HBOS for 232p-a-share, or £12.2bn.

And all without consulting with their shareholders and this is normal practice is it? do the deal and then let the shareholders know about it?
And of course the agreement went ahead without HBOS asking anybody else if they had a better bid? wouldnt that be normal practice? a company gets a bid announces it and waits to see if a better one comes along?

And you believe all of this is above board do you?
205

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:42:45
216 - yes, withdrawals from certain HBOS brands increased last week, but what the media won't tell you is that deposits also increased. More savvy savers have been rationalising their savings so that they don't have deposits with a single institution of more than the £35k limit of the Government compensation scheme, but again the public won't be hearing about that.

The role of the unneccessarily negative media in all this should not be completely ignored. It's the old "if it bleeds, it leads" story. If one were of an Orwellian bent, one might even suggest that it is just another way to keep the public in a permanent state of fear.......
206

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 13:43:37
Roscoe (206): "As you appear to understand economics, you'll know that as the supply increases (i.e. as the banks stop soiling their pants and start lending out funds again) the price comes down."

In normal times, I would completely agree. Unfortunately, that is part of the problem. Once banks take the view that they cannot believe financial data provided by other banks, then the fundamental basis of interbank credit is destroyed: they can no longer price risk -- this is the most common view I hear from former students who have become quants.

"A small proportion of HBOS' funding came from the wholesale markets, but HBOS has more cash deposits than any other UK bank, unlike Northern Rock for example who were reliant on wholesale funds for about 70%"

I agree that HBOS is far stronger than NR (and your percentage is correct, I think), and hence has survived for a year rather than merely weeks. However, the exposure to the wholesale markets is key: lending long and borrowing short is dangerous, and the sums involved at each refinancing are very large even given their cash deposits. Still, had the US problems not come to a head, or had HBOS avoided its decline until after the emergency US measures were announced, perhaps they would have survived. Their shareholders can still take that view, of course, and reject the Lloyds bid accordingly.
207

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 13:46:05
#201 #210 Nevsky

This isn't an England vs Scotland issue - except in your mind, of course.

Now, you said that you think that the "despicable and detestable" unionists are filled with "secret joy" at all of this. And then you contradict yourself by claiming that "some of their comments" show that they can "hardly seem to contain their joy".

Which is it: secret or not? And why don't you reference any specific posters and posts? Could it be that that's all in your mind as well?
208

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:50:18
OK, final comment from me - I need to get out the house!

HBOS has a fundamentally sound business model, more so than several other UK banks (I believe the figure is around 20% of all cash savings balances). They overextended their mortgage lending (which they had been warned about by at least two now-departed board members) and were facing some short-term problems.

However, it is simplistic in the extreme to state that if they hadn't refinanced their wholesale lending the whole thing would have gone down the plughole. There are many, many more things that could be done - for example launch a new savings account at a very high rate but for a short time. Money pours in, problem solved in the short term whilst a long-term solution is sought. Simplistic, but it IS another option.

That's what bothers me the most - the sale to LTSB has been positioned by all parties involved as the last and only option when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.
209

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:52:06
214

One teeny tiny insie bitty problem with that story is the FACT and there is the horrible word again god how you must hate it the FACT is that the market knew before the time of events in your story that the government was going to wave the competition regulations in order to allow the merger to take place. In other words it wasnt the speed of events that triggered the governments response it was already common knowledge what the governments response was going to be.

Back to the drawing board again eh?
210

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:52:53
Salem - a huge injection of government funds to basically convince banks that the financial system is sound and therefore encouraging them to start lending out money to each other again, hopefully quelling some fears and thereby 'loosening' the credit crunch. Judging by how inter-bank rates fell and by the general recovery of banking stocks, it appears to have worked, for now at least.

That really is my last one - have a nice day y'all.
211

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 13:52:53
suchaparcelofrogues (217): why are you still trying to peddle the obvious lie that there were only 2 possible outcomes a merger or oblivion?"

I did not state that the alternatives are merger or oblivion.
There are plainly 3 possible outcomes: merger, failure or survival. As I stated in the post to which you are replying:

"It's certainly possible that HBOS might pull through, and their shareholders can still take that view and refuse the Lloyds deal."

My own view is that HBOS will probably fail without a merger, but the shareholders own the company: it's their decision.

212

Roscoe P Coltrane,

20/09/2008 13:55:10
Dammit, can't help myself.

225 - if the markets had known well in advance that this deal was going to get the go-ahead, share prices would have gone up rather than down. Even the dumbest short-seller wouldn't sell short when they expected the shares to rise.
213

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 13:56:06
221 AM2#

This is not an England v Scotland issue if you are a unionist that is absolutely true...therebye again of course refusing to look at the purely Scottish consequences (always better to stay away from such arguments if you are a unionist).

The potential consequences for an independent Scotland have already been outlined and are very very serious..and i say 'potential consequences'.

According to your almost imbecilic first post everything is rosy in the garden though, beyond belief that your mind can work in such a way but no surprise.

Lastly...some of the unionist posts have in the past 24 hours have indeed been unable to contain themselves.

After one or two posts displaying constraint the joy bursts forth and comments regarding Salmond being useless, Scotland could never prevent this, we are only a small nation and could never survive and 'England comes to Scotlands rescue' show that even when Scotland suffers a blow it is a cause for unionists celebration.

I don't retract anything, absolute despicable and loathsome people.
214

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:56:06
220

HBOS has more cash deposits than any other UK bank,

How could you possibly know that? are you a member of the Board? would even a member of the board have that information?
215

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 13:57:20
Salem (222): ""had HBOS avoided its decline until after the emergency US measures were announced, perhaps they would have survived."

What measures are you referring to?"

The enormous changes proposed by Paulson and Bernanke to the Senate in the US, which caused Friday's bank trading to be so positive. If the US measures succeed, then it's possible (but unlikely, in my view) that HBOS could survive without the Lloyds takeover, in which case HBOS shareholders might reject the offer. On the other hand, who knows whether the US proposals will succeed?
216

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 13:58:47
227

Thank you for finally posting something honest and straightforward why dont you make it the rule rather than the exception.

I particularly like the "my own view is".
217

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:02:45
221

Nobody suggested there is a Scotland v England angle to this there is however a growing suspicion that the governments motivation for allowing the merger to go through so quickly and by breaking their own legislation on competition was constitutional and not practical nor financial.
nobody expects a government mouth piece troll like you to appreciate this but I would just like to clarify that point to everybody else.
218

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 14:03:13
Roscoe (223): "However, it is simplistic in the extreme to state that if they hadn't refinanced their wholesale lending the whole thing would have gone down the plughole. There are many, many more things that could be done - for example launch a new savings account at a very high rate but for a short time."

In normal times, that might work, depending on the spread. At present, I can't see money pouring in. In fact, since the media comment would emphasize that the new account was created to refinance credit crunch debt, the result might even be a run on HBOS bank deposits. There's also the problem that the high rate might cause more problems: after all, depositors need to be paid too.
219

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:05:13
#230 Nevsky

This isn't a “purely Scottish” issue. Looking only at the Scottish consequences would make no sense.

I am reminded of the time when I was hauled over the coals here for suggesting that sacrificing one Scottish job to save one hundred in England was appropriate. Apparently it proved that I was “anti-Scottish”.

Not that I’m surprised. The greater good has never been a nationalist concern.

As for my “almost imbecilic” post #1, you’ve misread it. I merely pointed out that Mr Skeoch approves of the takeover. The article failed to provide such a context for his remarks.

But anyway, you haven’t answered #221. Claiming that unionists want to see Scottish interests diminished doesn’t make it true. It only reveals your own bias (as if calling them “absolute [sic] despicable and loathsome people” isn’t enough).
220

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:06:14
#234 suchaparcelofrogues

Are you capable of debating without being abusive?
221

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:06:36
236

Eh yep all of that came out yesterday you should know you were there as well.
222

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 14:07:04
AM2 North Britain:

Have to go now but i almost choked on my coffee when i came across this from you in your first post:

'Not the Scotsman’s most balance ever article'

I mean come on. I mean really. Did you write this?

Coming from someone who makes Goebells look like Walt Disney this was hilarious.

Even Bernard Ingham would treat you as a bit of an unionist eccentric but it did make me titter neverthless.



223

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:07:34
238

Oh easily just not to dishonest party political trolls who are paid to lie on these blogs.
224

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:08:55
240

Aye me too the sheer hypocricy of it not to mention the fact that he takes so many other headlines at face value and runs with them.
225

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 14:12:13
237 Am2:

Regarding the quote: 'Claiming that unionists want to see Scottish interests diminished doesn’t make it true'

I would state the McCrone report...Scottish interests were 'more than diminished on the sacrificial alter of the union...that you cannot deny!

A country that the government KNEW would be rich on it's own has the worst areas in the developed world for poverty and depravation?

Unionists have always been willing to put the Union first..that is why you are Unionists, isn't it? So Gordon Brown keeps saying anyway..

Have to go..tata
226

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

20/09/2008 14:12:35
They key thing as noted earlier was the 100bn + of wholesale borrowing that HBOS had to refinance, indeed 48% of its cash came from that source - and it had dried up or was extremely expensive. Add to this the fact that people were withdrawing funds, then the problem becomes even more acute. In essence it was finding it difficult to borrow on the markets, at the same time as it was having to pay out money to depositors. I heard of one case of a solicitor (who is not poor) withdrawing all his funds and I assume also those belonging to his clients. There were also rumors of the large account holders taking their money out.

The sad fact was that had this continued it would have been a rather quick end to HBOS. All of it due to terrible management.
227

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:12:56
#240 Nevsky

"someone who makes Goebells look like Walt Disney"

Godwin's invoked. You lose.
228

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:15:42
#243 Nevsky

Your word "KNEW" is pure fabrication. McCrone was and is a unionist. He has criticised and contradicted his own 1974 paper, most recently by expressing broad agreement with GERS 2005. You, however, choose to cherrypick his research for your own purposes.
229

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:17:24
#241 parcel

"party political trolls who are paid to lie on these blogs"

Your conspiratorial delusions are most amusing. More, please!
230

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:19:16
#234 parcel

"Nobody suggested there is a Scotland v England angle to this"

Clearly you didn't read Nevsky's #201.
231

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:19:56
246

The very fact that he is a unionist and a Labour party stooge gives his report the credibility it deserves also the fact that the report was never meant to get out also gives it credibility.
And that he was forced to retract it after the event is another indication of its credibility.
Its a shame you cant manage to get so many factors working for you to give you any credibility.
232

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:20:01
Fish in a barrel. Bye!
233

AM2,

Scotland,UK 20/09/2008 14:21:46
#249 parcel

Hahahaha! Any and all the evidence points to your preconceptions, eh?

Bye.
234

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 14:22:19
AM2 North Britain:

Last from me as i really have to go, here is a DIRECT quote from the report:

“The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and
its currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the
Norwegian kroner.”

If you deny that Scotland would be a vastly richer country had it become independent then you are living in some kind of parallel universe.

But it's Union before Scotland for you so no doubt you will try.

Would have been interesting to see the report also speculate that without independence Scotland would have the worst depravation in the western world...you would still have defended it of course..like i said Union before Scotland...despicable.
235

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:22:38
247

Not a delusion more of a speculative statement based on suspicious events and circumstances.
236

,

20/09/2008 14:23:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
237

,

20/09/2008 14:27:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
238

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:30:42
251

My preconceptions before reading the report makes it invalid and untrue?
239

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:34:54
248

Certainly didnae see the "versus" where did you see it?
240

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 14:36:27
OOH AM2 is still about and armed with his wee red eraser.
241

Martyk,

20/09/2008 14:59:52
I note the as expected whingeing from scots economic nationalists on all this. Fair enough. I have not heard much of the same from Halifax/Yorkshire. When they get round to lobbying for job retention and the rest we could be into a dog eat dog situation. Edinburgh fighting Yorkshire for the scraps resulting from the gross mis-management of two once fine institutions.
242

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 15:29:54
260

I dont know?
Is it being pushed through with undue haste?
Does it breach any competition legislation?
Has British energy suddenly had a run on its shares?
Are the US govt poised to bail it out?
Will it give the UK government any kind of constitutional advantage over their main rivals in Scotland?

If none of these apply then where do you see the similarity?
243

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 15:30:37
261

Yes profound very profound.
244

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 15:42:50
213suchaparcelofrogues,

"207
I honestly dont understand a word of that post can you rephrase it or clarify it?"

As simple as I can make it. Do you think that lloy has to find £12bn to pay to HBOS shareholders?
Despite making this claim on numerous occasions you now say that you don't understand the question, I shall give you a clue, the correct answer begins with "n".
245

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 15:58:55
Hen Broon (265): "The Union is and always has been about keeping England in a superior position and Scotland subservient."

If only it were -- then I might support it. Still, congratulations on one of your most concise posts.
246

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 20/09/2008 16:04:23
@Nevsky and suchaparcelofrogues.

You have raised the question whether if, in the event of Scotland being independent and the Lloyds TSB takeover being confirmed, Scotland would lose corporation tax revenue and England gain corporation tax revenue. I do not think this would necessarily be the case. Under standard international tax practice, the trading activities of Lloyds TSB in Scotland would be subject to corporation tax in Scotland, while their trading activities in England would be subject to English corporation tax. This would be the case for example if we were talking about UK and France or indeed any other country.

Probably, given a recent ECJ decision, the dividends that Lloyds TSB received from a Scottish subsidiary company would also not be taxed in England. Dividends paid to shareholders by Lloyds TSB would be taxed where the shareholders are resident and so the takeover or question of Scottish (or English) makes no difference to this, as the shareholders of HBOS are (I suspect) mostly non-Scottish anyway.

In conclusion there would be probably not be any loss of tax revenue to a future independent Scotland. However there would be a huge loss of tax revenue to the UK, Scotland and England (however you want to look at it) if HBOS went bankrupt and stopped trading (whether directly or through an intervening period of state ownership), which could/could have happened without a takeover by Lloyds TSB or someone else.
247

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 16:15:17
sm753 (263): "Or is it OK because it's the French?"

I see you've left the best till last. If Santander or Credit Suisse had shown an interest in HBOS, then I suspect the SNP government might be applauding the triumph. A Lloyds-TSB take-over, however, is immediately viewed as English imperialism in action, or as Westminster corruption, despite the explicit "focus on Scottish jobs" given in the proposal. Still it's entirely possible that Lloyds shareholders will vote against the HBOS merger -- no doubt that, too, will be the actions of evil England.
248

Heed thi baw,

20/09/2008 16:20:17
#265

So why didn't our First Minister and his financial advisors within Scottish Government monitor the HBOS situation along with other Scottish based companies, to ensure this did not happen? Why didn't Salmond look to mitigate the run on HBOS's shares, by bringing in another Scottish based financial institution to take it over? As in any recession there will be other Scottish based companies, large and small, that will go to the wall. It has nothing to do with political conspiracies and everything to do with market economics. It is the management within HBOS that caused this to happen and their lack of understanding of inherent risk within their organisation. A private takeover is significantly better than bankruptcy or nationalisation.
249

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 16:24:01
Lloyds is not in a significantly better position than Lloyds. This is a nonsence created by the London government, the London media and the London financial establishment. Lloyds business model was also based on arranging finance from the wholesale markets. Lloyds loan to deposit ratio was only slightly less than HBOS. The question thats has to be asked is why was there such an attack on HBOS specifically, when they were simply following the business model of all the other banks?

The answer: the banks wanted to merge, and the moneymen wanted them to merge, but they couldn't because of competiton laws and the outcry from Scotland. So Lloyd's went to Broon at the party and said we will make you look like a decisive leader and will help save you if you look the other way to the merger.

Broon bit his hand off because he is nothing but a slimy carrerist who thought he has a god given right to be Prime Minister. Well the day of recogning is coming for him. Don't Vote Labour! Don't vote for the merger!
250

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:26:11
Browns speech was embarassing. He is finished.
251

Heed thi baw,

20/09/2008 16:26:35
#269

Yesterday, I accused the SNP as being bigots and racists. A bigot being defined as "a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own". And a racist as "a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others".

You've hit the nail on the head.
252

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 20/09/2008 16:29:00

Remember also that Lloyds TSB is also a part Scottish bank, since it comprises the TSB. Short of the RSB buying HBOS, it would not be possible to get a more Scottish takeover. If RBS taking over National Westminster in England (which was actually a bigger bank!), why is Lloyds TSB taking over HBOS not OK.

Remember also that the HBOS is already a half English half Scottish bank anyway!
253

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:30:14
Really have to say having watched Browns speech (being the internet whizz i am) that i have never ever seen a Prime Minister so dislocated from his audience or so isloated from his cabinet colleagues. They look completely and utterly spent..or is it just me?
254

Heed thi baw,

20/09/2008 16:34:13
#271

"Not his job and not within his legal competence."

How do you work that out? He is the leader of a Government that manages a budget of £40 odd billion. I for one, expect that person to have their finger on the pulse of everything that happens within the Scottish economy. Particularly when it comes to the top 10 biggest companies/employers in Scotland. Salmond should have been on the case. This shows that all within the Scottish Government are so far removed from corporate reality.
255

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 16:35:13
jinkyjo (272): "Lloyds is not in a significantly better position than Lloyds. This is a nonsence created by the London government, the London media and the London financial establishment."

Yes, it's all the doing of evil London. I hope you now put your money where your mouth is: buy HBOS and Lloyds shares and vote against the merger.

256

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 16:38:35
sm273 (277): "From the employment perspective, there would indeed be advantages if there were a "foreign" buyer with no market overlap with the company being bought. Someone like Credit Suisse or Deutsche buying HBOS wouldn't close any branches"

That's true. As far as I can recall, Credit Suisse is relatively untroubled. Perhaps FM Salmond should be visiting Zurich . . .
257

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:38:39
Fairfax and Heed the Baw:

'I see you've left the best till last. If Santander or Credit Suisse had shown an interest in HBOS, then I suspect the SNP government might be applauding the triumph. A Lloyds-TSB take-over, however, is immediately viewed as English imperialism in action, or as Westminster corruption'

What a load of garbage you talk sometimes (actually most of the time). Would you like dear old England left with one bank? Would you like job losses? Would you like the Spanish to come to dear old blighty and buy all the banks and building societies?

You of course would not have anything to say on the subject (i bet).

Nothing on these boards are anti-English..anti-Union yes but anti-English no, despite you best attemps at polarising the arguments ate EVERY opportunity.

I feel as bad for anyone in Englanld facing the prospect of losing their job or those who will be forced to re-locate and the demise of the halifax HQ..so cut the purile rubbish you talk out!
258

Martyk,

20/09/2008 16:40:20
Am I truly going bananas here? The Irish Government has announced there is nil risk to depositors at the 4 Irish based and owned high street banks. With guarrantees to match. According to press reports they have extended this to cover Bank of Scotland operations in Ireland! No other foreign banks. Just BOS (Ireland). Why?
259

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:40:25
281: Fairfax:

Perhaps you should be visiting the geriatric home for old English Tories.
260

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:41:38
sm753:

You are in danger of tipping over. You been drinking?
261

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:48:29
287 sm753:

So you are saying that the UK government is to be held responsible for not encouraging a foreign (non-UK) bank to bid and thereby minimise job losses?

262

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 16:54:34
sm#

"Would you like dear old England left with one bank?"

Having only "one bank" would clearly not be good for competition.

You have stated this yet is seems acceptable now for Scotland to have only 1 bank as is the case.

Care to expalin how the is situation is acceptable in the contect of Scotland then?

Bearing in ming with foresight that Scotland 'could' become independent one day and left with 1 bank you arguing that this situation is not acceptable or it is acceptable in Scotland only...or am i getting the logic of your argument confused?
263

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 16:58:14
Nevsky (282): "Would you like dear old England left with one bank?"

HBOS is a British bank, not merely a Scottish one. In any case, there are more Scottish banks remaining, albeit smallerplayers, such as Aberdeen Asset Management.

"Would you like job losses?"

Given the document's statement yesterday that the focus would be on maintaining Scottish jobs -- no mention of English jobs -- I suspect England will see job losses.

"Would you like the Spanish to come to dear old blighty and buy all the banks and building societies?"

All of them: certainly not. Some of them: fine. Abbey was, of course, bought by Santander. You may also recall NatWest being bought by RBS, together with Morgan Grenfell (bought by Deutsche), Warburgs (ultimately UBS), Kleinwort-Benson (bought by Dresdner), Halifax (merged with one Bank of Scotland). None of these provoked the nationalist response we're seeing here.

"Nothing on these boards are anti-English."

Of course -- how could I have thought otherwise?
264

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:01:50
292 Fairfax#

Care to point out just one anti-English comment then seeing as you make reference to it in every post? Just one would do?
265

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:03:32
Fairfax:

In response to my statement:

"Would you like the Spanish to come to dear old blighty and buy all the banks and building societies?"

All of them: certainly not.

Acceptable for Scotland though, yes? But not for England as you have stated.
266

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:04:45
Nevsky (293): "Care to point out just one anti-English comment"

Certainly. Here's one from earlier:

Hen Broon (265): "The Union is and always has been about keeping England in a superior position and Scotland subservient. You only have to look at the disgraceful gloating by the unionist trolls on here to see that reflection. The eunuchs full of bile and self hatred."
267

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:08:02
295 Fairfax#

Not really racist i would say would you? incidentally if you would like racism just visit any of the English broadsheets where you will find choice language directed against Scots in practically every 2nd post, something i have never seen here (with the exception of the odd nutter).
268

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:10:03
Nevsky (294): "Acceptable for Scotland though, yes? But not for England as you have stated."

As I pointed out, there are still small players such as Aberdeen Asset Management, as well as the extremely large player RBS, together with several Scottish hedge-funds and other financial institutions. There are also banks such as Clydesdale, whose Australian ownership does not seem to provoke ire.
269

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:13:00
Nevsky (298): "Not really racist i would say would you?"

You asked for anti-English comments -- I wouldn't say this is neutral language.

"incidentally if you would like racism just visit any of the English broadsheets where you will find choice language directed against Scots"

There is indeed, and it is shameful. Note, however, that I don't attempt to pretend that either (i) it doesn't exist, or that (ii) it's essentially banter. Why do Scots find it so difficult to accept that there is a strong anti-English minority? It's really very difficult to miss.
270

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:15:49
sm273 (297): "I would actually contradict m'learned friend Fairfax."

No problem there.

"From a competition perspective, I would not care if the Spanish bought every single bank in the UK, as long as it was different Spanish companies doing it!"

I would agree provided we could ensure that those companies behaved entirely rationally, in the sense that they were never tempted to cut UK jobs, rather than Spanish jobs, for political reasons, say. Unfortunately, that ideal is probably unattainable.
271

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:17:07
Fairfax#

Losing the plot with you following staements such as this:

As I pointed out, there are still small players such as Aberdeen Asset Management, as well as the extremely large player RBS, together with several Scottish hedge-funds and other financial institutions. There are also banks such as Clydesdale, whose Australian ownership does not seem to provoke ire. Report Unsuitable

Where to start? I mean really. AAS are a great company (pro-snp as well i think) but come on what are you talking about.

England would be happy with Dorset Mutual as it's onlt bank would it?

Clydesdale is not a national bank in Scotland..Australian owned..profits go there (made with Scots money of course)..come on you can do better!
272

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:21:07
Nevsky (304): "England would be happy with Dorset Mutual as it's onlt bank would it?"

As I pointed out, and you agreed, Scotland would not be left with only RBS (albeit the largest UK bank). You yourself praised Aberdeen Asset Management.
273

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:22:56
305 sm753:

How many will be affected by a reduced HBOS, any idea?

Yippee Scotland has 6 fund managers. Wonder how many Norway has and what their capital wealth is, any idea?



274

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:23:47
sm273 (305): "Not sure why you're picking out AAM, they're a fund manager not a bank."

You're correct. I'd assumed he meant large financial institutions, rather than banks per se, and wanted to give one example.
275

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:24:29
AAS is not a bank Fairfax as far as i know. Care to name another Scottish bank?
276

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:27:03
Fairfax:


You know i meant BANKS. Name all the big Scottish ones for me like Lloyds, Barclays, Bank of England that Scotland has.

Poor situation if one day you (as a good English conservative) could not name more than one bank don't you think, yet acceptable for Scotland in your view!

277

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 17:36:40
Nevsky (310): "You know i meant BANKS."

I really didn't, but will restrict discourse to banks if you wish.

"Name all the big Scottish ones for me like Lloyds, Barclays, Bank of England that Scotland has."

The Bank of England is a central bank, not a trading bank.

"Poor situation if one day you (as a good English conservative) could not name more than one bank don't you think, yet acceptable for Scotland in your view!"

If it's not acceptable to Scotland, then it's Scotland's responsibility to do something about it. It clearly means a great deal to you.
278

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 17:48:56
311 Fairfax#

Can you name Scotlands central bank for me as i can seem to find it..it always comes up as the Bank of England.

Your last comment is EXACTLY why Scots are angry..starting to understand?

But what can we do about it when a Westminster government can sell anything Scottish off at the drop of a hat with questionable backroom guarantees and deals despite full backing from the central bank to provide 'unlimited funds'?

What a lot of people want to do is to taje full fiscal control of the country to preveny any more rundown of what is left, it is no longer an accepatble situation and the Scottish people are aware of it.

I would expect no less of the English, every county must protect it's national interests but for the first time in almost 300 years Scots are becoming aware of their countries interests and that is a great great thing for this country.

279

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:06:35
Nevsky (312): "Can you name Scotlands central bank for me as i can seem to find it..it always comes up as the Bank of England."

It would have been easier if it had been renamed Bank of Britain long ago. Still, since we're hopefully soon to part company, there seems to be little point now.

"But what can we do about it when a Westminster government can sell anything Scottish off at the drop of a hat"

It can't: the HBOS shareholders can say no. They would certainly be extremely optimistic if they did, but it's their company. All the British government has done is to jump at the chance of avoiding a high-street bank failure.

"What a lot of people want to do is to taje full fiscal control of the country to preveny any more rundown of what is left"

I too wish Scotland to secede. However, that may not prevent such take-overs unless you leave the EU.

"I would expect no less of the English, every county must protect it's national interests"

I find it difficult to view the Lloyds TSB proposal as English imperialism, not least because of the extreme risk to Lloyds itself. Furthermore, HBOS is not merely a Scottish bank, and Lloyds is not merely English. However, what is your suggested alternative? Should HBOS shareholders vote now and take the risk? What, if anything, should the British government do if that risk fails?
280

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:06:42
264

If I have already answered several times already why are you asking the question?
WTF are you on about? is it troll time again already?
281

brownlie,

20/09/2008 18:10:22
313 Col.Blimp

Evening, Colonel, have you tried Coutts - Elizabeth, Charles, Camilla and I find it gives excellent service.
282

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:14:55
Hen Broon (316): "Your reply to my so called anti-English post was that you would support the union if it was keeping England in a superior position. How very predictable and anti-Scottish of you oh pompous one."

Thanks. I'm pro-England, not pro-Scotland. I'd expect the same reaction from you, with an obvious change of sign.

"You are a fraud Fairfax, a nasty agitating trolling fraud, put on here to stir it up. If you are what you claim you would not hide behind the unionist troll gang hut"

I'm not a unionist, Hen Broon: I see no advantage whatsoever to England's Union with Scotland.

"but have the courage to publish your work with your name proudly attached"

Like, for example, yourself? Academics have less freedom than you might be aware in these politically correct times, so I shall remain anonymous.
283

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:17:13
266

"No. It's moving quickly but following due process for any takeover"

In your opinion?

"Not yet, because it hasn't happened yet. And technically it won't since the Gov says it will use the leeway available to it in the law to OK the deal. But clearly the rules are being stretched to fit the circumstances."

If it goes through this monster of a bank will corner 24% of all UK banking business and this wont affect the competition rules? IN YOUR OPINION?

"Are the US govt poised to bail it out?"

HBOS? No. It may benefit as a side-effect from any actions in the US. Whether its shareholders regard this as being sufficient to reject LTSB is up to them.

Deliberately and obviously misinterpreted that question. As has been stated so many times on these blogs the US govt has in FACT bailed out all of the financial institutes either directly or indirectly by boosting the market and lifting everybodies share prices.
Just for once stop trying to be a t*sser if you are really interested in debate.

Will it give the UK government any kind of constitutional advantage over their main rivals in Scotland?"

No. How could it? It's just a high street bank.

Again deliberatly misinterpreting the question which was of course directed at the take over of the utility company not the bank and of course the answer is no so there is no comparrison between the two.

again just being a t*sser. which is fine because its up here in print for all to see.

so basically the answer is no there is no comparison with your example of the French take over of the utility company and Lloyds take over of HBOS.
What a tool.
284

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:18:34
brownlie (317): "Coutts - Elizabeth, Charles, Camilla and I find it gives excellent service."

Coutts is owned by RBS. However, I believe Camilla banks with Hoare's.
285

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:21:21
267

Oh please post it here today that you think that we live in a union of equal partnership with England with our 59 MPs out of 365.
And please tell us you believe that the so called Scottish unionist parties are not run from London at all.
286

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:22:15
269

In your opinion?
287

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:23:44
271

"It is the management within HBOS that caused this to happen and their lack of understanding of inherent risk within their organisation. A private takeover is significantly better than bankruptcy or nationalisation."

Amen!

Any proof? You could clear up the whole mystery if you could prove this.
288

Embra Don,

20/09/2008 18:23:53
I spent a fair part of yesterday on these boards trying to see if anyone would defend deregulation and demutualisation. Curiously there were no takers.

My purpose was to remind those, who are rightly disillusioned by New Labour, of the source of the current financial shambles. The legacy of Thatcherism and Raygunomics must not be forgotten.

Anyone up for it today?
289

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 18:23:56
329#
Soule the English not be proclaiming from the rooftopt:

'Thank God for the USA bailing out England?'

Quick enounugh to point out an English Bank bailing out a half-Scottish one but strangely reluctant to use the same language with regard to dear old blighty's entire banking sector.

Funny old world, funny old rhetoric!
290

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:25:20
303

Or if the UK government had advanced warning eh?
291

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:28:50
302

There is no constitutional crises between the UK and Spain but if there was I doubt very much if you would support it. What If the UK was for example trying to obtain its independence from Spain and the Spanish started selling off all of the UKs financial institutions in order to make it more difficult would you still support the take overs?
292

Embra Don,

20/09/2008 18:31:04
I spent a fair part of yesterday on these boards trying to see if anyone would defend deregulation and demutualisation. Curiously there were no takers.

My purpose was to remind those, who are rightly disillusioned by New Labour, of the source of the current financial shambles. The legacy of Thatcherism and Raygunomics must not be forgotten.

Anyone up for it today?
293

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:31:13
suchaparcel (321): "Oh please post it here today that you think that we live in a union of equal partnership with England with our 59 MPs out of 365."

There are 646 MPs in the Commons; it's 365 days in the year. Each MP, whether English or Scottish, represents roughly the same number of voters, so in that sense there is equal representation. Still, I too hope that the number of Scottish MPs will soon be reduced to zero.
294

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:33:09
311

"If it's not acceptable to Scotland, then it's Scotland's responsibility to do something about it. It clearly means a great deal to you."

Which is why we have a constitutional crises and its why the UK government seems to be allowing Scotland assets to be stripped.

Duh!
295

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:36:49
suchaparcel (325): "Or if the UK government had advanced warning eh?"

Advanced warning of what, precisely? They could have been given advance warning that Bernanke and Paulson were to brief Congress on the crisis on Friday, but there was no guarantee Congress would approve the Bush administration plan -- Congress might simply have refused.
296

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:37:21
329

"Each MP, whether English or Scottish, represents roughly the same number of voters, so in that sense there is equal representation."

So the 59 Scottish MPs represent the same amount of voters as the other 587 MPs is that right?

297

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:39:18
331

Advanced warning by the US government that they were planning on bailing out the market and when.
Is it inconceivable that our government has nobody in place in Washington to pick this sort of thing up or that our closest ally and friend wouldnt give our government the heads up?
298

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:39:31
suchaparcel (330): "Which is why we have a constitutional crises and its why the UK government seems to be allowing Scotland assets to be stripped."

I don't view the Lloyds merger as asset-stripping, but obviously you do. If that's the Scottish view, would you support the Scottish Government recommending that HBOS shareholders reject the deal? What would be your proposed solution?
299

brownlie,

20/09/2008 18:39:57
320 Fairfax

I know - my son works for Coutts. I don't think I like the sound of Camilla's bankers.
300

Nevsky,

Mosacow 20/09/2008 18:42:34
329 Fairfax#

Your logic would be perfect apart from the fact that Scotland is a different country..it's not Yorkshire, Cumbria or Kent.

The aspirations of Scotland (the country) are no longer being met by Westminster, people want and expect more..it's very simple!
301

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:43:17
334

And I dont appear to be the only one. Hence the headlines and the questions that have to be answered which you are failing to do in spite of all the waffle you have managed to fill this blog with.
302

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:46:17
suchaparcel (333): "Advanced warning by the US government that they were planning on bailing out the market and when."

This theory fails, I think, because the Bush Administration first had to ask Congress. The Bush Administration could certainly have given advance warning that it was about to petition Congress to act quickly on Friday, and that Bernanke and Paulson would tell Congress that (essentially) the world financial system might rapidly collapse if they didn't act swiftly. However, Congress might have said no, or they might have taken a few more days to decide. This is therefore hardly the kind of useful insider information on which to base massive financial decisions.
303

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:46:40
336

How is his logic perfect? he claims every MP represents roughly the same amount of people therefore Scotland has equal representation in Westminster?????

So by that logic 59 MP represent roughly the same amount of people as the other 587.

Where is the logic in that?

Scotland has 1/10 the representation of England within Westminster but would have 100% representation in its own independent parliament now which is better for Scotland?
304

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 18:47:37
Fairfax 334#

Too late for any solution, Bank of Scotland has gone..was half gone already but now will in all but a 'token gesture to the jocks' dissapear.

There is only one solution, independence to protect our interests and for England to protect theirs.

That way there is no conflict and no grievence, business can work away but NOT at the expense of the country..at present Scotland has no power whatsoever...no longer an acceptable situation.
305

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 18:49:02
339

You are full of sh*t. You dont put together a package like that overnight it had to have been planned well in advance and the funds made available.
Give me a break still making it up as you go along.
306

Fairfax,

20/09/2008 18:53:56
suchaparcel (337): "Hence the headlines and the questions that have to be answered which you are failing to do"

I've wasted hours today in the belief that reasoned answers might provoke reasoned discourse, but it has clearly failed. If you want to believe in a conspiracy, then do so: the evil English arranged for HBOS to fail -- they weren't really insolvent -- all in order to asset-strip Scotland. I assume you'll be writing to Salmond to demand that he publicly opposes the take-over and encourages HBOS shareholders to reject the deal.
307

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 19:01:50
345 Fairfax#

Again nothing to do with the 'English' which for some reason YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE bringing up.

The bank was solvent and a half-Scottish bank has now gone leaving Scotland with 1 national bank. The Scottish finance industry will be heavily damaged (just as if England was to lose it's second biggest financial institution), jobs will be lost north and south of the border and the deal looks increasingly suspect.

This is a huge development...not so much for England but certainly for Scotland and Edinburgh..even you understand this and if you expect it all to happen with NO questions and an unbending faith in what Brown says then wake up for goodness sake!
308

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 19:09:19
345

All you have done all day today and yesterday is make excuses and stories up in order to support the Labour party official line on the merger. You havent presented a single shred of substancial proof to back up a single opinion or point you have made.

344

See 333. and several other posts up there.
Jesus.
309

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 19:12:13
347

And its all a coincidence. The UK government has absolutely no motivation to base there decisions on constitutional grounds at all.
No constitutional crises here guvnor.
310

Scotfree,

Erskine 20/09/2008 19:18:23
The current situation for the British state (despite the veil of deception, once aptly described as "Amusing ourselves to death") has all the hallmarks of an end game. An endgame where there is no (official) voice of dissent with neer a whisper of reporting outside the labour Unionist bubble of illusionist comfort. This is characterised as a Macbeth type tragicomic delusion, the last act, in which bloodied despots meet their just deserts.
We have a state where habius corpus has been abandoned. Where the rule of law no longer applies. Where the guardians of parliaments laws seek to break these very laws (on monopolies, on insider trading, on… the list is endless) for their own selfish advantage. Where the Central bank, rather than carry out its founding duty of protecting the banking system engages with a fraudster, war criminal, leader of the government in a Grand Theft type embezzlement of the banking system. As a consequence, the accumulated wealth, assets and achievements of the Scottish people over 300 years with a value of near £80 billion are heading South, into the back pockets of a criminal elite who have hijacked the state. And (as Voltaire would have said) “this is what we call our freedom”.
311

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/09/2008 19:22:39
345, Fairfax, I am a shareholder and will be voting against this.

You can think what you like. I will do what I like.
312

Greyfriars Bobby,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 19:29:02
Sorry to break it to you all, but Scotland is still part of the UK.

Don't seem to many commentators here worrying about what this will do to the localities of Halifax, Bristol, Aylesbury, Leeds, Sheffield or any of the other areas where HBOS is a big employer. Lloyds has pretty much committed to Scotland, just as it has previously (LTSB Scotland).

Unfortunately readers of The Scotsman, you are letting yourselves down - again.

The Lloyds takeover of HBOS is unfortunate. I doubt anyone (especially the 140,000 employees of the combined entity) really would have wanted this. It has been done for shareholders and customers, because otherwise, the company was at the risk of going under.

Some facts:

- HBOS has built its asset base to a size that in 'normal' times would have put it in a fantastic position
- But, there were doubts (in the city) about HBOS' ability to raise major funds in the short term
- This caused the shareprice to go into freefall
- There was the start of a run on the bank (fortunately these was curbed)

I doubt many people who read The Scotsman could ever consider that this deal is being done with the best of intentions.

This newspaper is an absolute disgrace. Maybe it should be sold off to an English paper group.
313

Scotfree,

Erskine 20/09/2008 19:36:37
#352 Jock Tamson
Good for you!
You should be aware that Fairfax is a right wing English Nationalist, Oxbridge, halfwit spoiler. Obviously the labour unionists are (as experienced in Glasgow East) getting desperate and are scraping the bottom of the barrel, having to import their disinformation spoilers.
314

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/09/2008 19:37:52
Eh Bobby, 353, Johnston Press is an English based group.

I have the facts I need to enable me to vote no.
315

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/09/2008 19:42:45
ColB, 354, the HBOS in Falkirk is in the High Street opposite the LloydsTSB. Not really fit for agriculture.

355, Scotfree. Yes I know Fairfax and Carstairs.
316

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/09/2008 19:49:16
In fact, ColB, the only culture you see on Falkirk High Street is mould.

How unkind of me.

But seriously, I will never plough a dreel into Lloyds.
317

Greyfriars Bobby,

20/09/2008 19:51:59
#356

Thanks Jock - not sure how many people know that. That's the Scotman down the pan then!

Everyone must vote how they see fit. I would prefer HBOS to stay as an independent entity. I've banked with HBOS companies for over 30 years and I do not really want to switch to LTSB.

But, I'm not sure if it will survive otherwise.
318

Conan the Librarian™,

20/09/2008 19:55:36
354
The old TSB annexe in Corstorphine is an ideal place to grow tomatoes. And stuff.

Sorry, but I really don't know which bank inhabits it now.

They change so often.

But the owners stay the same.
319

Tizer,,

20/09/2008 19:56:54
I'm a brand knew poster to this special scotchman website. FACT. Your bank has gone cos its not as good as us banks in NE England like Northern Rock. FACT.
320

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/09/2008 20:02:58
360. Bobby. HBOS is still a going concern. The short selling of the shares has been outlawed and the shares immediately rose 52 pence.

Whether it survives as such is down to that prat Hornby.

If a decent merger was going through there would probably be less resilience towards it. However, the recent behaviour on the stock market and elsewhere points to dirty tricks to force an unwanted takeover on the cheap.

321

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 20:08:50
355

Imagine that! and he hid it so well too.
322

Conan the Librarian™,

20/09/2008 20:09:20
362
You are McPravda and I claim my five pounds.

323

,

20/09/2008 20:18:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
324

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 20:26:34
366 Kimba#

You are like a fa*t in a tent, sometimes an amusing noise but often stinks.
325

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 20:28:04
Interesting that the Scotsman's html picks up the word fa*t as offensive but Fairfax and unionist as perfectly acceptable!
326

brownlie,

20/09/2008 20:30:23
362 Tizer

Welcome back!!
327

Conan the Librarian™,

20/09/2008 20:38:01
366
Err...where do I get my five pounds then?
328

Publius,

London 20/09/2008 21:13:27
Those who don't like the proposed takeover have need not sell their shares to Lloyds. If 50 per cent of shareholders refuse to sell their shares, the deal won't happen. ... But HBOS will go bust.

P.S. Some English employees of HBOS are wondering whether to take action against the government and Lloyds for racial discrimination. The terms of the deal offer special concern for Scottish jobs. The employees reckon they have a case. If the deal offered special concern for men's jobs or white people's jobs it would certainly be illegal.
329

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 21:20:59
371 Publius#

HBos will not go bust. The Bank of England have already offered 'unlimited funds' as well as the government pledging that NO BANK will go to the wall.

catch up!

330

brownlie,

20/09/2008 21:23:28
371 Publius

Define English? Do you mean English people that work for HBOS or the people who work for HBOS in England? There is a difference.

Are you sure HBOS will go bust if the deal does not happen? Why so, oh wise one?
331

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 21:24:55
N.B.

I don't agree with the clause at the expense of any English jobs but in effect the clause as written means nothing whatsoever. How could you implement, monitor or guage such an ambigious clause?
332

Publius,

London 20/09/2008 21:55:44
#372 Nevsky
The government would ensure that the bank carried on trading but the shares would be worth nothing.
#373 Brownlie
I have no knowledge about the state of HBOS, except what everyone knows - a business centred on (a) mortgages in a falling house market including mortgages to people who could never afford to repay them in the first place and (b) financed from money borrowed short term in an international money market is structurally unsound.
#374 Nevsky
I entirely agree with you. I only point out that HBOS's English staff are aggrieved at what they see as special treatment for the Scottish staff and wild talk about racial discrimination is one of the ways this is coming out. My own view is that all of HBOS's staff are in for a rough ride except for Andrew Hornby and the people around him who screwed up.
333

Rebel,

South Carolina USA 21/09/2008 02:08:18
Scottish or English or black or white or woman or man or American or anything else... it matters not. If the government / banking criminal team is in charge, then EVERYONE LOSES.
334

Ian from Gala,

21/09/2008 20:58:13
This deal was precipitate and against the national and shareholder interests. Put this another way, the sell out of my company was effected at the worst possible moment in terms of securing its long term prospects as an independent entity. It was a panicked over-reaction bullied through by people who should know better. Lloyds TSB's move was opportunistic and should have been laughed out of court. As a shareholder, I will not be voting for it.

 

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