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HBOS: The questions just keep piling up



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Published Date: 20 September 2008
SERIOUS doubts about Lloyds TSB's takeover of HBOS emerged last night after a leading City figure suggested there had been an abuse of the market rules as talks were being held.
Keith Skeoch, the chief executive of Standard Life Investments, said there had been a delay before the talks were formally announced. Stock market rules dictate companies in advanced talks should make a formal announcement to the stock exchange, with trading in their shares being suspended.

Were these critical rules broken? The intervention by Mr Skeoch, the head of one of Britain's biggest institutional investors, adds to the growing furore over the circumstances of the scrambled bid for HBOS as its shares were in freefall.

Had news of the talks been announced earlier, the dramatic plunges of this week – and particularly of Wednesday morning when the shares crashed by more than 50 per cent – could have been avoided.

If the share crash was avoidable, and HBOS had been able to survive until Thursday night, when news of the United States government's plan to buy toxic debt came through, the bank could still be independent.

That news from across the Atlantic yesterday sparked a surge in share values, with HBOS's stock rocketing by 33 per cent.

Mr Skeoch was angry that the market had learned of the HBOS/Lloyds TSB talks from the BBC, and even then there was a delay of several hours before they were confirmed.

When asked in a BBC Radio 4 interview if it was an abuse of the market, he said: "There's an issue there, and I think we should be asking ourselves who was in the possession of that information and why it wasn't released to the market and why it was made available to the market via the BBC."

While the Bank of England has refused to comment officially on claims it dithered over whether to step in, a source there has said a liquidity facility was available at an unlimited level.

The source has raised further questions by suggesting the deal was a "purely commercial decision" and nothing to do with HBOS's survival. This is crucial, as a commercial deal would not have taken place in normal circumstances; the government waived competition rules only because it was an exceptional situation.

Archie Kane, the chief executive of Scottish Widows, which has been owned by Lloyds TSB since 1999, echoed the Bank of England source's assessment of the takeover, saying:

"This deal was done for commercial reasons. We would not have got into the situation otherwise. We operate on behalf of our shareholders, we do the best thing for our key stakeholders."

The controversy follows anger over the role of short selling in HBOS's demise. Fingers have been pointed at the Financial Services Authority (FSA) for failing to stop the practice quickly enough.

The developments have resulted in a formal request that there is an FSA investigation into the deal.

The SNP MSP Alex Neil, a former economic consultant, has written to the FSA, London Stock Exchange and the Bank of England demanding an inquiry into the alleged abuse of the market.

"It appears that there has been a serious breach of stock market rules, which must be investigated," he said.

On the controversy over the Bank of England, he added: "If what appears to be coming out of the Bank of England is true, and this was a purely commercial decision, then we have to ask why HBOS is being sold. If it is true it needed to be rescued, then both the Bank of England and FSA failed HBOS."

HBOS has strongly denied delaying the announcement to the stock exchange. A spokesman said: "We take our market disclosure responsibilities very seriously. We believe that our statement was issued as expeditiously as possible."

The row erupted on a day when the US government's decision to effectively nationalise bad debt stabilised the financial sector, leading to huge rises in banks' shares.

This has led to further suggestions the Treasury had been too eager to push through the HBOS takeover.

Keith Bowman, a market analyst with Hargreaves, said: "Maybe it was rushed and there are doubts over whether the merger will actually solve the problems. But on Tuesday, the priority was the health of the banking system, not of HBOS."

Sources close to Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, insisted that, despite the claims coming from the Bank of England, if the takeover deal had not been put on the table, there would have been a run on HBOS and it would have gone under.

The UK Shareholders Association (UKSA) has questioned the need to rescue a bank that, to the outside observer, and using financial information provided by HBOS, appeared to be profitable. It said that if indeed it was a "good deal" for HBOS shareholders to sell the bank at about the current market price, the directors had a lot of explaining to do.

The doubts have put into question whether HBOS shareholders will back the merger.

A spokesman for the UKSA, said: "Only if HBOS shareholders receive an adequate explanation that convinces them that a sale of the bank was essential should they approve the takeover by voting for it."

Bryan Johnston, of Bell Lawrie, said: "Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the situation looked pretty bad on Tuesday. Of course, shareholders at HBOS may reject this deal, but I think they would be very unwise."

Swinney seeks GlobalScots' help

HBOS opinion: Keith Skeoch, Chief Executive of Standard Life Investments

HBOS: Lloyds TSB chairman Victor Blank talks about the deal

The full article contains 932 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 September 2008 11:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Halifax Bank of Scotland
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/09/2008 22:52:48
Not the Scotsman’s most balance ever article. Skeoch also said that despite being somewhat disappointed by the financial implication for Standard Life, he approves of the takeover and feels that in the long term it will renew stability in the market.
2

AM2,

Scotland,UK 19/09/2008 22:53:57
Typo: "balanced"
3

Charles Linskaill,

Waiting for DYW baby sitting 20/09/2008 00:10:58


Well the "questions can come piling in" all they want!

But I can tell you all something,.....

Not a 'hell's hope' that they will be answered!

You would have to be 'green as cheese' if you think otherwise.
4

Resolutions,

20/09/2008 00:14:02
Every minute seems to raise more questions about this financial farce.

You could not make this stuff up - its like some novel - but its real ordinary decent folk, being hurt, not fictional characters
5

Senga Jean,

20/09/2008 00:15:43
I for one aint voting for this bargain basement deal!
6

Resolutions,

20/09/2008 00:25:22
Neither am I!
7

Brodric,

20/09/2008 00:28:09
This lends fuel to the fire that something stinks to high heaven.

Why has all this been rushed through so soon after it was mooted that Scottish banks have their right to print Scottish banknotes withdrawn?

Why wasn't the call to halt all short term trading given a day earlier?

Who exactly is behind the short trading - and why?

We all know that in any case HBOS would have faced difficulties in the current world financial situation, caused by the collapse of the American property market, and also that Hornby et al had steered the Bank in an imprudent direction, but we must ask the question if this was enough?

Until now, I couldn't believe that the UK government, under a Scottish PM, would sell HBOS down the river - but there are too many why's and not enough answers.
8

Resolutions,

20/09/2008 00:32:50
Is the right to print our banknotes not enshrined in the Act of Union 1707? One of the few things that was kinda honoured.

Yes there is a very nasty odour about this.
9

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 00:42:39
So, we shared holders should vote against the merger...simple...
10

subrosa,

20/09/2008 00:45:09
# 11

As long as we have enough shares to outvote the big boys. They want it.
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 00:48:04


Resolutions ~10,

"a very nasty odour" that's for sure! infact the whole thing 'stinks',..

And no-need for comment, because the whole 'caboodle' will be covered-up.

I is not the children's playground, it is high profile politics, and we are mere plebs.
12

jinkyjo,

glasgow 20/09/2008 01:05:10
The takeover happened with indecent haste. There wasn't large scale withdrawals from depositors, nor did it have to go cap in hand to the BOE for extra liquidity. It seems strange that more wasn't done to try and stem the flow of speculation against a bank that, while not perfectly run, was solvent. It will be intresting to note where Brown ends up after he's booted from number 10.
13

Guga II,

Rockall 20/09/2008 01:07:31
This proves that Maggie Broon has sold out Scotland, once again.

Vidkun Quisling was also a "son of the manse".
14

BIG EYE,

Paisley 20/09/2008 01:32:10
Consider this

Brown and Darling were aware that the USA were considering the move they made yesterday. They hd taken no steps to protect HBOS through outlawing short selling despite two previous attempts to destabilise the bank in the previous six months.

Brown has already admitted he was heavily involved with Lloyds in advance of the HBOS slide. So a window of opportunity was created where Lloyds could pick up HBOS on the cheap and Brown could parade around claiming to have stabilised the market.

Some collateral damage in the shape of thousands of lost jobs in Scotland but this can be put down to "friendly fire"

And there still people in our country (numbers getting smaller all the time) who still vote Labour?
15

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 20/09/2008 01:35:43

No name calling and rejecting a secret government plot to do away with Scottish bank notes

This was done with undue haste there is something fishy here and the air needs to be cleared by a full enquiry before this merger takes place .
16

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 01:39:44
People have to inform themselves about this deal because it's an absolute disgrace. Lloyds' deposit to lending ratio was not much better than HBOS' and Lloyds also used a great deal of the wholesale markets to fund their operations. I therefore fail to see why HBOS was targeted in such a manner. This deal stinks of market manipulation, unjustified speculation, and criminality.

People have to ask themselves who this is going to benefit and why was it allowed to happen? It's going to create a behmoth that will dominate the market and stifile competition, but yet it was rushed through on the back of some perceived risk to the markets. I urge everybody who is not familiar with Naomi Klein to read her theory on disaster capitalism to understand how economic shocks can lead to financial piracy.
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 01:51:27


The Deal is done and dusted, The aftermath wont Count, as the Ground will settle,....

History marks it, and our future generations will not be affected.

Whats, 'done is done' there is no reverse, lets get on with our lives,...

Comment is good, but it wont change anything now!

Comment would be far better the reflections on the past history of the HBOS, or in true terms the BOS!

A once was, and now a no-more.
18

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 01:56:03
Charles, I'm sure that those who benefited from this deal would love that to happen. However, it is the duty of the Scottih Government and the Scottish media to find out exactly why and how and why this deal came about.


19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:00:12


jinkyjo ~34,

You must be 'Joking'!

All will be covered and dressed up, to give Answers of 'non-truth', but ones that will please the plebs by brainwashing them, in what they want to hear!
20

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 02:05:17
Charles, you are correct. However, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to spread the truth and make people question what they are seeing and experiencing.
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:16:57

jinkyjo ~40,

I agree, but the 'Roy Cropper' and 'Victor Meldrew's' comments, should be addressed, as these People are sadly living in 'Cloud Cuckoo Land' and NOT the real World of the ones in control,...


They are 'brainwashed and conditioned' to make these comments, it is an expected response, of those in control,..

A Little Like, 'bin laden', who is,....

'Laughing his heed off' at the West!
22

Brian Hill,

20/09/2008 02:24:55
I must say that my first thoughts were 'political' reasons rather than financial for this total 'English' takeover.

How convenient for Unionists to show Scots how vulnerable even their leading and most cherished institutions could be.

How frightening....Independence? You must be joking. Scotland is clearly too small for that. Shame that it appears to be backfiring. The country is united under Alex Salmond's leadership.

And with the sudden recovery of the markets today and the possibility of rules having been broken concerning the 'non' suspension of shares, who knows what might happen now?

This looks like it may have some distance yet to run.
23

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 20/09/2008 02:32:28
Time for Salmond to call in the Mounties.
24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:33:05


Brian ~46,

It is all far too late now, The People must understand, that we are treated as the underdogs, always have been!, always will be!

No need to cry wolf, and shed stupid crocodile tears, we the instigation of our own demise, have let them away with it for centuries past!

If one had a modicum of intelligence, one would Know this.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 02:36:02



Brian ~46/48reply

This is not a dig at you, it is the whole scenario.



26

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 02:48:02
What exactly has Brown and Darling been doing since Northern Rock to shore up the UK banking sector. If I'm not mistaken, Northern Rock started to collapse a year ago last Saturday, and yet, it has taken those two incompetents until yesterday to do anything meaningful to shore up the banks, even though Scotland's oldest bank is under sustained attack by speculators throughout this time. I'm not paranoid, they really are out to get me.
27

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:50:48
Govt bail-out for Northern Rock - 70 billion

Govt bail-out for AIG - 80 Billion

Govt bail out of Freddie and Fannie - 200Billion

Govt bail out of HBOS - 0

Many people on these boards suggesting at the time of Northern Rock that no such rescue packages would be afforded to sponging Scottish financial institutions in a similar predicament - PRICELESS
28

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:52:41
Brown brokering the sale of Scotland second largest company in a regulator induced fire storm the day before the market rallies - priceless
29

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:53:17
Smashing the economy of Scotland for political purposes - priceless
30

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:55:02
Not communicating with our closest ally the day before the federal reserve the day before a massive rescue package - priceless
31

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 20/09/2008 02:58:23
Staying put in a union where our interests are outweighted by a neighbour 10 times our size - what price?
32

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 03:03:53
The shareholders of both banks have to reject this takeover. It cannot be right that an institution can be manipulated in this way. The apathy in this country astounds me sometimes.
33

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 20/09/2008 04:13:02
Predictably, AM2 sees nothing wrong with this whole sordid affair, whilst everyone else is up in arms at the way in which this Scottish bank has been compromised by Westminster.

As a shareholder in HBOS, I will be voting against the takeover and I hope all others do too.

Brown and Darling have been complicit in selling Scotland down the river once again.
34

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 20/09/2008 04:45:48
As it is now clear that if the Bank of England had intervened with liquidity assistance and had the market rules regarding announcement of merger/takeover discussions been complied with (see comments by Standard Life) HBOS would have survived until the US announced its intervention in the toxic loans debacle and not been under any threat whatsoever, it is all the more reason for the Westminster government not to amend the competition and mergers legislation to permit a merger which they would not have otherwise allowed.

Holyrood and the EU should see to this.

And note: this merger has not actually yet taken place. Months will pass before the deal is formalised. So far it is based on a handshake ("my word is my bond" as they say, or used to say, in the world of "high" finance!). The merger could therefore still be halted.

Go to it Mr Salmond!

35

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 20/09/2008 04:46:46
Sorry Charlie but I cant accept your analysis of the theft of our bank. Yes we are in general plebs as far as Westminster is concerned, but that is never a reason for just going with the flow.

This newspaper should finally get with the programme, and start the same type of campaign they carried out to protect Scottish Waters. Its Time to protect our HBOS, by using this paper as a vocal point for the unity of the Scottish Nations fight to uncover the truth and get the message out there to the silent majority.

As far as divisions exist between unionist Scots and pro Independence Scots go, we should all collaborate to STOP THIS manipulation of the people.

You never know unionists may get a better insight into why so many Scottish People want an end to this craap, and the only way to do it is break apart the UK.

I watched Sky News (Rupert Murdoch) mouthpieces interviewing Brown yesterday. He has done his duty to the real powerbrokers by undermining the bank, so Rupert ordered his dummies to give him a free ride. Like "why dont you let us see more of your beautiful boys, and how much you are a family man".Bit of a change since two weeks ago eh...

So come on Scotsman, start your campaign to Protect Our Bank and stop the merger. You never know it might actually help solve Johnson Press's 109 million quids losses year to date.
36

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 20/09/2008 04:55:03
Good comment William of Liberton. Exactly correct as far as this merger is concerned.

The Scottish Government should use whatever amount of money it takes to launch a Legal Challenge in both London and the European Courts.Its time to take a stance, and draw a line in the sand. No More, No Way and No How to the prostitutes that go by the name of Westminster MP.s.

Go for it Alex, Please we need your help more than ever.
37

donald,

glasgow 20/09/2008 05:03:10
I'm going to take my overdraft elsewhere.
38

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 05:19:04
From the Times-

"In a move coordinated with his American counterparts, Hector Sants, the chief executive of the Financial Services Authority (FSA), implemented a ban on the short-selling of 32 financial stocks on the London Stock Exchange on Thursday night. Short-selling is a method of betting that the price of a share will fall."

"Mr Sants said that, although short-selling was legitimate, it had contributed to a “disorderly market”."

Obviously from these quotes suggest that short-selling did contribute to HBOS's predicament and that the FSA were unwilling to ban short-selling until they got some kind of approval from the Americans. If this is true, then it's an absolute disgrace. It seems that HBOS was offered no protection from the British state; it was simply fed to the lions.
39

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 05:24:53
I like this one as well:

Jeremy Batstone-Carr, head of research for Charles Stanley, the broker, said: “Short-selling probably contributed to HBOS’s demise. But there needs to be consolidation – we have to have a clear-out,” he said.
40

jinkyjo,

20/09/2008 05:42:20
It's clearer by the minute that this had nothing to do with saving the financial system, but had everything to do with reducing the number of banks competing on the high street. It seems that the plan had the knowledge of Darling, Brown, the FSA and the BOE and that they have done nothing to prevent it from happening. If there is a choice as to whether it's an English bank or a Scottish bank that has to disappear... Another example of the Union dividend.
41

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 06:28:10
A question that has to be answered and investigated if necessary is did our Government know in advance that the US government planned on buying out the "toxic debt"? and if it did why did it allow the merger to go through?
It isnt only the debt which smells toxic about this affair.

1 AM2

I find it pathetic how you can claim this article isnt balanced when you have taken so many articles in the past at face value and posted you own "balanced" statements accordingly.
And under so many different accounts too.
42

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 06:42:02
Is it inconceivable that the US government didnt inform the UK government in advance of its plans to stabilise the markets?
Is it inconceivable that the US didnt in fact inform all members of the G8 of their plans to stabilise the markets in advance?
43

Marga,

Fife 20/09/2008 06:42:36
Also I think you could bring in two things that have been puzzling everyone, not necessarily conspiracy theorists.
-Whay exactly did David Cairns resign? Did he perhaps get wind of this? Everyone was surprised by his resignation, was this one reason? Think of his position today and more significantly if/when a protest movement starts.
-Why exactly has Glenrothes been kept on the back burner for so long? What are/were they waiting for?
44

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 06:51:18
67

Delaying Glenrothes isnt surprising after their Glasgow East fiasco no doubt they have a forlorn hope for better days. David Cairns I believe has just jumped off a sinking ship which isnt so surprising either I doubt it has anything to do with the merger.
Lets keep it as real a possible.
45

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 07:29:45
Following the announcement (even before the announcement) Lloys were subject to takeover speculation should they aquire HBIS as this considerably stretches their finance and their whole portfolio now looks under-balanced.

Why then was RBS not consulted to create one Scottish 'super bank' and why were Lloyds given (it looks like) a guarantee from the government when the same could equally aply to RBS.

If the Bank of England gave assurance of funds for HBOS why was it sold at all. Hold your shares and vote NO!
46

scotinus,

Santa Barbara. California 20/09/2008 07:46:11
Short selling is not a new phenomena. Remember George Soros almost killed of the Pound through this activity. George is still around and looked upon as much of the media as a Financial God rather than the villain that he is!!!
Short selling can easily be stopped in all stock exchanges by simply not allowing shares to be borrowed.
Further, put a minimum time limit to holding shares (1 month?).
The latter can be pushed through all meaningful governments within days. How long did governments take to limit liquids taken on board aircraft?
Short sellers have maimed financially, physically and mentally more people than any Al Quaida terrorist!
So Gordon, you were Chancellor for how long??? You attended so many G7 conferences etc etc and you didn't see this bomb waiting to explode???? Keep playing the fiddle laddie and ignore the smell of burning!!!! God, I hope you're given your P45 this week!!!
47

Jambo 7,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 07:52:27
So the FSA have stopped short-selling. Well done! Now how about identifying and criminalising the acts of those who are involved in what can only be described as manipulation of the stock market for their own gain and greed. Many companies will fall in the future until those with access to insider knowledge and who spread rumour to undermine confidence are caught. I strongly suspect that quite often it's those that are near the top of the failing companies that are to blame.

It really is an absolute disgrace to see so much hardship suffered by the general public and then see these characters, who are basically untouchable and know it, walk away with multi-millions. Time for some action. I do not support SNP but Alex Salmond is the only politician who has the balls to come out and say what is wrong and what needs to be done. I only hope he can influence the outcome.

48

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 08:27:48
70

I think we can safely say this goes way beyond just short selling.
49

MWM,

Argyll 20/09/2008 08:31:38
Like I said earlier in the week, this whole scenario has been orchestrated from No10 Downing Street for political purposes. Brown and Darling are laughing all the way to the bank!


50

Interested Spectator,

Glasgow 20/09/2008 08:35:14
69 Nevsky,Moscow 20/09/2008 07:29:45

""Why then was RBS not consulted to create one Scottish 'super bank' and why were Lloyds given (it looks like) a guarantee from the government when the same could equally aply to RBS.

If the Bank of England gave assurance of funds for HBOS why was it sold at all. Hold your shares and vote NO!""

Nevsky - The Scottish Super Bank idea whilst romantic and seemingly topical would raise so many problems :-

- one dominant player in the Scottish market with c. 80% of the personal banking market and more than that for SMEs. In the long term is this REALLY in Scotlands interest?
- just how many jobs would go in such circumstances
- it is also fair to note that RBS is more than a little preoccupied with its own exposure to the credit crunch or more bluntly the City view of it

BTW I am absolutely no advocate of the Lloyds takeover of HBOS, but on the other hand, I dont claim to know whether or not HBOS does have serious funding issues in the next 18 months. One thing is for sure though, if it does, then it would never be allowed to fail....its exposure to the UK housing market carries too many risks to the UK economy, hence the Government being keen on a quick deal - rightly or wrongly it removes a concern for their own embattled position.
51

TWC,

Ayrshire 20/09/2008 08:37:42
Well done Margo McDonald.
A public enquiry is required and hold it in Scotland not like the Kelly / Weapons of mass destruction con.
This whole thing stinks.
52

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 08:41:49
74

And there is no possiblity that the quick deal was because they were aware that the US government was going to stablise the markets and they had to get this deal done before it happened and the HBOS share price recovered?
53

carrottop,

Dumfries 20/09/2008 08:43:00
The delay in suspending share dealing in HBOS gave more than enough time to those with inside knowledge of the impending deal time to buy shares on the cheap in the full knowledge that they were going to be at least double the value after the merger.
This nothing but thiefs in suits again, happens so many times eg British Energy shareholders having the company more or less taken away from them and still running today!
This an informative article as I, for one, did not know there was a delay.
54

elizabeth wynne-McHardy,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 08:46:43
Any one who wanted to scupper the strong Nationalist lead here in Scotland would have kept silent and watched events unfold until the news 'broke' with the BBC. Scotland with no strong historic financial institutuions is a weakened Nation.So convenient to have a financial scpaegoat too; Who spoke to who at a dinner party?
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 08:48:46
78

The more "evemts unfold" the grubbier the UK government looks. This is not going to help their fortunes North of the border in fact its a further nail in the Unions coffin.
The only silver lining in this whole shoddy dirty affair.
56

jdships,

20/09/2008 09:03:30
29 Charles Linskaill,

See where you are coming from but one of the problems in this country of ours is we appear to have given up the democratic right to press for the truth.
We are being brainwashed into thinking that Short Selling is a new phenomena. Remember George Soros almost killed off the Pound through this activity.
We have a PM who makes out he is the master of all situations and yet in all the years he was Chancellor and attended so many G7 conferences etc etc he didn't see this disaster waiting to happen????
This man has the potential to bring this country (UK) to its knees if he and his Party are not removed from office
Another point is the deafening silence from the "high heid yins" of HBOS .
Come on guy's let's hear from you - please !!
57

Tim C,

Southern England 20/09/2008 09:07:08
Steady no.59 'a better way'; your "Sky mouthpiece" was presumably Mr Jeff Randall who commented in his newspaper (d Telegraph) yesterday that Broon answers questions by talking about what he believes the question should have been. This 'mouthpiece' said that the British people deserve better than this. "Ask Mr Bro*n if he is completely blameless for the mess in public finances and he dishes out a lecture on “doing the right thing”.

There’s no contrition, no admission of fallibility, no recognition of blunders – and most certainly no apology. This isn’t clever. It insults the electorate’s intelligence and helps explain why, like AIG, he’s doomed."
But our humble opinions only count at elections; although " it doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always gets in...".
58

1745,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 09:08:31
The Treasury was deeply involved in this merger although nothing was published. For TREASURY read GORDON BROWN. He did say that he would do "ANYTHING "to halt INDEPENDENCE.
Without our Bank it will be more difficult.
59

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 09:12:54
79 Spectator#

I don't know if the RBS merger with HBOS was ever considered. The rason i mention it is that if as the government says 'it will not allow ANY bank to go to the wall' and will utlise the reserves to ensure this then why take a decision the immesurable weakens the Scottish banking sector.

There will be those who say it 'won't' but the truth is that Scotland now has just 1 bank that like all other banks is liable in the future to subject to speculation..that will leve Scotland with not 1 national bank which is a completely unnaceptable situation for any country.

As for what is in Scotlands interests i would suggest that the creation of one huge international would be better placed to weather the current storms, particularly through diversification which a 'super bank' could easily maximise.

The point is that in taking this decision Scotland has been weakened whereas there was a possible opportunity to strengthen the sector but as far as i am aware this was not even considered...despite and i repeat despite the fact that the government looks like t has given surety to Lloyds.

It's a very strange situation.

60

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 20/09/2008 09:16:01
I have to admit I was genuinely saddened by events but you Nats and I should stop kidding ourselves. The BoS stopped being a truly 'Scottish' bank at the time it was taken over by the Halifax. It being headquartered in Edinburgh was a figleaf to Scots' sensibilities then and the retainer of the name and the issuing of the banknotes is a figleaf now. Like all banks it is now an international monolith. At the time of the Halifax merger I was angered into closing an account I had with the then BoS and changing some services. This time I was going to move entirely to the RBS but, on reflection, what's the point? None of the banks gives a to*s about where they're based. Profit is the only thing they care about. If you think RBS would risk itself at the expense of maintining it's 'Scottish' identity, you're sadly deluding yourself.
61

Robie,

South 20/09/2008 09:17:39
Is it not obvious to all your bloggers that the bank is named Halifax, done of you complained when this non Scottish instituation was annexed, or for that matter when Natwest was also annexed. Grow up we live in a global economy. Do you really think that Scottish banks don't play such games.
62

MikeyG,

Carlisle 20/09/2008 09:28:32
In one of Thursday's papers Andy Hornby admitted having been in casual talks for nearly six years re a Lloyds merger. So how "innocent" is he? Has he just pulled off the biggest con since "The Sting"? AND he gets a seat on the new board - how has he got the gall to sit there presiding over 10s of thousands of job losses he instigated? He must be the biggest persona non grata ever..if he Lloyds policies were so good,why didn't he say to the HBoS board, "WE must try this!"...he's going to walk away with milliions and keep his job..any shareholder worth their salt must vote against this!!! This must be the most unethical thing anyone has done and got away with...only in Britain unfortunately.....agaain we're a laughing stock..shareholders must keep this man away. An english greengrocer brings down a Scottish institution and gets away with it. Sad times..
63

Nevsky,

leamington spa 20/09/2008 09:29:10
85 Robie#

Scottish Bank not Banks..there is only one in Scotland. Personally i don't think it is accepatble for any country to have just 1 bank. Germany, Switzerland and France have been tring for months to merge smaller with larger banks to prevent any international takeovers.

They don't subscribe to your 'so what' attitude when it comes to national interests.
64

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 09:31:34
85

Dont remember any Scottish financial institute taking over any English financial institute with the assistance of any Scottish government do you?
and certainly no during a period of constitutional crises or is that just coincidence?
65

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 09:35:18
Mr Skeoch would be better employed trying to improve the lot of the recipients of Standard Life pensions that he has consistently failed over the years. In any case, the people who were caught out were the short sellers who were quite legitimately gambling on a falling share price and had to close their positions at a price higher than they had hoped.
66

john z,

edinburgh 20/09/2008 09:35:28
Shareholders and HBOS employess should not just vote against this, they should each write a letter to their relevant MP, copied to Brrroooooon. Let these clowns in London know that the people of Scotland OR Halifax, are not going to sit back and see their banks and careers sold off just to make Gordon Brrrooooon look as though he took "decisive action" in time for his party conference.

HBOS WAS and IS a valid healthy profitable bank. This is all about Brrooonn playing unionist politics, and it stinks. The man is a traitor to Scotland.

Well done to the Scotsman for pushing this. At last standing up for the people of Scotland, and especially the Edinburgh banking sector.

Hold Brown and Darling to account. They are both most definitely now not welcome in Scotland.


67

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 20/09/2008 09:41:55
Dont worry its all part of the Labour party dirty tricks to weaken Scotlands position in the world markets. After all Gordon Brown was involved in the advanced talks and told LTSB that he would get the merger through.

Now where is my new shirt? the one with wing mirrors
68

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 09:42:15
Let's face it: when the HBoS managers were making flawed decisions on the Mound, no-one heard any comment from politicians, either in Westminster or Holyrood.

Now that thousands of jobs are on the line, I would say that the reaction by Holyrood is pathetic (naughty speculators.... good grief).

I also note that even Salmond is not trying to make the story into a Westminster / Holyrood squable, for once.
69

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 09:49:11
A few on here seem not to have noticed that HBOS was deeply into the most basic error of finance, borrowing short and lending long! I wonder how many managers in HBOS passed their 11+?
70

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 20/09/2008 09:49:46
When did Salmond first find out about the merger talks? Months ago it seems.
71

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 09:50:59
92 Tin Man#

You think government should takover all banks and manage them then do you?

Think you will find Westminster and the Bank of England actively encouuraged borrowing and mortgages to prop up a credit economy, was always going to go t##s up at some stage...

No more boom and bust says the great Brown the 'iron chancellor, the pruden one'...then boom and bust..what an absolute disgrace, liar and incompetant idiot that man is!
72

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 20/09/2008 09:52:47
Surely the final say in all this rests with the shareholders of both banks when asked to approve the merger.

If enough sense can be hammered into these "responsible" peoples heads then surely the bank merger can be avoided as it will surely be better for the competitive market in the longer term to have the choice of two reasonable sized banks rather one large dominant bank.

On the other hand,if a majority of shareholders vote for merger then they are as bad as the speculators and spivs in my opinion, so lets see if common sense or greed will prevail?

73

noswod,

Honestus 20/09/2008 09:55:01
Hornby should be sacked ! accountability should be brought back into management, the Harvard so called educated greengrocer has imploded 400 yrs of Edinburgh banking tradition. Think deeply about who was doing the shorting & rumours. We nicked Nat West from them and now they have got us back. Independence won't work with only one bank.
74

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:55:47
84 Draco-good post!Banks are faceless money making machines worldwide. The fact that our family has been using the same bank for 45 years here in SA means nothing. We no longer have a 'real' bank manager, and the phones are answered by computers. As with many other businesses nowadays they are colluding oligopolies that determine prices on the basis of-these are our lavish costs, this is the fat margin we want therfore this is the price. Markets and values are constantly manipulated by mega gamblers with stock prices at any particular time representing the'state of play' as opposed to any reflection of value or economic reality. Ruthless speculators cream the situation constantly whilst politicians are in reality too scared or too impotent to rectify the situation.
All rather sad really-capitalism in its true form is still the only practical economic system-pity it has been so perverted.
75

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:55:47
84 Draco-good post!Banks are faceless money making machines worldwide. The fact that our family has been using the same bank for 45 years here in SA means nothing. We no longer have a 'real' bank manager, and the phones are answered by computers. As with many other businesses nowadays they are colluding oligopolies that determine prices on the basis of-these are our lavish costs, this is the fat margin we want therfore this is the price. Markets and values are constantly manipulated by mega gamblers with stock prices at any particular time representing the'state of play' as opposed to any reflection of value or economic reality. Ruthless speculators cream the situation constantly whilst politicians are in reality too scared or too impotent to rectify the situation.
All rather sad really-capitalism in its true form is still the only practical economic system-pity it has been so perverted.
76

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 09:55:59
#95 Nevsky

No, I am not in favour of governments taking over banks, and I believe that the N. Rock take-over was a disgrace.

The fact remains that Lloyds TSB made rather better decisions than HBoS. Such is life.
77

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 09:56:10
94#

Merger talks and a bank being taken over in a few hours for chicken feed are a different matter, when did Westminster and Darling know as only they could have prevented it (which now seems like they could have)..after all Broon is on personal terms with the director of Lloyds isn't he?

78

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:56:22
One Hundred for the Union!
79

Sedov,

Scotand 20/09/2008 09:56:22
Who's the referee in all these take overs - the FSA or or the SFA?
80

Geoff,

sa 20/09/2008 09:56:23
One Hundred for the Union!
81

Nevsky,

Moscow 20/09/2008 10:01:21
100 Tin Man#

To be honest i am a bit confused as the prevailing opinion now seems to be that HBOS was indeed a sound institution with no problems in securing funding...so how does that square with Lloyds?

If instead there had been short-sell on Lloyds it's possible this scenario could quite easily have happened to them, there was even speculation of a takover when the deal was announced as the markets were considering Lloyds to be under-financed.



82

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:01:54
92

And just exactly what did HBOS do that ever other bank on the planet didnt?
83

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:02:56
100

Is that your personal opinion or your party political one?
84

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:04:56
98

Ah nothing at all about this scenario rings any alarm bells with you at all eh? just business as usual and a bunch of spivs doing what they do best.
85

John S,

20/09/2008 10:07:30
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
48 days until 6th November the proposed date of the Glenrothes by-election
when Gordon Brown MP will step down from his constituency duties as acting MP for Glenrothes.
Gordon has done a splendid job and will be missed by his temporary constituents who have had the honour of having the top man (PM) representing them in the Parliament.
It will be a sad day for the people of Glenrothes on the 6th November but you have to understand that our Gordon has a nation to look after and I trust that his contribution to the well being of those who live in Glenrothes will not be forgotten.
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
86

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 10:11:04
#105 Nevksy

From what I read, Lloyds TSB have much better financial security than HBoS, therefore HBoS has become a target, both for short-sellling shares, and for a take-over. I don't think that short-selling works unless there is a basic underlying price-trend.

I would imagine that a take-over has eyed-up for a long time, and I would very much doubt that anyone would be intrested in taking-over a bank if it could not operate as an on-going concern.

It really boils down to Lloyds TSB having better judgement than HBoS, although whether a take-over is good for Lloyds is debatable.
87

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 10:11:13
106

'And just exactly what did HBOS do that ever other bank on the planet didnt?'

They borrowed 70% of their finance short term from the whole sale market and lent it out on 25 year or even interest only mortgages!
88

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:13:32
111

So? are you claiming they are now in the position they are in because of this? and if this is the cause of all their woes then why are other banks suffering as well?
89

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:14:39
110
"From what I read, Lloyds TSB have much better financial security than HBoS"

And where did you read that then?
90

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 20/09/2008 10:16:59
111

In fact if this is so devestating why didnt they go under sooner?
Or is it that no one policy or decision is enough to put a bank into dire straights if it all goes wrong?
91

The Tin Man,

20/09/2008 10:18:13
Anyway, if people want to make the proposed take-over into some kind of Scottish patriotic issue, then they can move their savings and loans into the RBS. Although that aren't doing too well, either.
92

11+failed,

the pans 20/09/2008 10:18:26
110
Lloyds shareholders have already been promised shares instead of cash for their final dividend and a future dividend reduction of around 30%. Many Lloyds shareholders may well be unhappy that they are being asked to take in a Trojan horse! HBOS was badly managed and their business model fatally flawed. In addition they lost £4bn on buying worthless "securities" which they were too smart to examine.