Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

The hunt is On.
Sponsored by
Can you track down Scotland's wildest beastie?
 
 
Friday, 5th December 2008

Haggis Hunt is now on!

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Gray rips up manifesto – with a little outside help



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 15 September 2008
BUSINESS leaders, teachers and voluntary workers from outside the Labour Party are going to be brought in to help the party find the radical edge it needs to beat the SNP in 2011, The Scotsman has learned.
Iain Gray, Labour's new leader in Scotland, is determined to change completely the way the party makes policy.

He is going to throw out the whole 2007 election manifesto and bring in a whole set of popular new ideas drawn up by people from outside the party.

Margaret Curran, the former communities minister, has been given the role of setting up "virtual think tanks" of experts from outside politics. There will be one from business, one from the voluntary sector and one from education. The ideas that these groups come up with will be then be fed in to the Scottish Labour Party policy-making process and have a good chance of getting into the party's 2011 election manifesto.

Mr Gray is adamant that he will accept good ideas from any sources, inside and outside the party, even if they clash with policies agreed by the UK Labour Party for England.

A spokesman for Mr Gray said last night: "Iain is determined that the 2011 Scottish election manifesto will be made in Scotland, written in Scotland and for Scotland."

Mr Gray was elected as the new leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament on Saturday, beating Cathy Jamieson, the former justice minister, and Andy Kerr, the former health minister, by a comfortable margin.

He made it clear as soon as he was elected that he believed his remit was wider than just that of the leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament, because he had been elected by the entire Scottish Labour Party, including local constituency associations and the trade unions.

He said this gave him a mandate to speak for the Scottish Labour Party – a statement which showed he was willing to assert his new-found authority over the rival claims of Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary.

Mr Browne said later he was sure that Mr Gray would respect the existing "structure of the party", which was interpreted by some as the start of a turf war between the men. Mr Gray, however, played down claims of infighting between himself and Mr Browne, insisting yesterday that they were working well together.

The new leader said: "I spent most of yesterday with Des Browne. You would think Des and I would know if we were actually involved in some kind of turf war as described and it's absolutely not the case."

Mr Gray said he had asked Ms Curran to look after policy development ahead of the 2011 election because, having had all the feedback from the voters during her unsuccessful by-election campaign in Glasgow East, she knew what the voters wanted from Labour.

He said: "It's time to close the 2007 manifesto and begin writing the 2011 one and Margaret Curran will take the lessons she learned and heard on those doorsteps in Glasgow East to the heart of that process."

But how will new Labour leader fare against First Minister?

Iain Gray

RECOGNITION: 1/10

SNP spin doctors have already started calling Iain Gray "Mr three per cent" because that, apparently, is the percentage of Scots who think he would be a good First Minister.

• CHARISMA: 4/10

Mr Gray had a reputation as being boring. He is more feisty, intelligent and possesses more leadership skills than many of his opponents give him credit for.

• DEBATING SKILLS: 5/10

Mr Gray was always seen as competent but not necessarily fiery or oratorical. He has improved recently and there is no reason why he can't start to compete with Mr Salmond.

• POLICIES: 5/10

Mr Gray is starting from scratch. He cannot be held responsible for past mistakes but he also cannot come at the SNP with coherent, well-worked policies.

• TEAMWORK: 8/10

Labour has many experienced former ministers and Mr Gray should use them all in his team, regardless of previous affiliations.

TOTAL: 23/50.

Alex Salmond

RECOGNITION: 10/10.

Alex Salmond has been at the top of SNP politics, on and off, for nearly 20 years and no-one in the Scottish Parliament comes close to him in terms of public profile.

• CHARISMA: 7/10

Mr Salmond is popular and generally seen as charismatic. He likes to give the impression of being one of the lads – this seems to work.

• DEBATING SKILLS: 8/10

The First Minister is probably the best parliamentary debater at Holyrood. He is quick-witted, sharp and combative. He can sometimes ignore important details in favour of making grand gestures.

• POLICIES: 5/10

Mr Salmond has done well with populist policies but things are going to get much harder when he introduces key financial policies.

• TEAMWORK: 3/10

Mr Salmond is almost a one-man band for the SNP. This means, though, that no-one else has really been given the chance to shine.

TOTAL: 33/50


The full article contains 852 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 September 2008 9:19 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Richardinho,

15/09/2008 00:05:56
Not that he's likely to be around in 2011, but what if, after they've consulted all these groups and drawn up a manifesto, Gordon Brown leafs through and says 'no,no,no..etc.'?
2

beckypumps1,

Fife 15/09/2008 00:16:00
It just gets dafter by the day.

Forget the new manifesto let the people of Glenrothes vote.
3

Guga II,

Rockall 15/09/2008 00:38:29
Maggie Broon and the London Labour mob are going to let Gray go ahead and devise his own policies - and pigs might fly. After Gray is smacked down a few times, he might learn obedience to his London masters.
4

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 15/09/2008 01:05:38
may i suggest a popular policy and some free advice? stop spreading fear and smear! and don't use l the ondon pr companies to run your scottish leadership elections! try and remember which country you live in? and that you are an mSp and SCOTTISH leader of labour party! try telling us your policies and not "we hate alex salmond and the snp" ps; did you not help draw up the 2007 manifesto????
5

Brian Hill,

15/09/2008 01:24:12
He's beginning to talk the talk, but can he walk the walk?

But even if he gets to the walking stage, will he be able to keep up with the SNP never mind overtake them?

I thought the assessments of Gray and Salmond were a touch generous to Gray and less so to Salmond.

But who cares what the Scotsman stable says, the voters love Salmond and the SNP as Glenrothes will confirm.
6

FTH22inarow,

15/09/2008 01:39:06
any idea where mr gray's constituency is?
7

Fifi la Bonbon,

15/09/2008 02:00:23
It's East Lothian, #7.
8

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/09/2008 02:02:53
The Scotsman is a Sussex publication in disguise Scottish Joe Publivc has learned . . .

http://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/
9

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/09/2008 03:13:39
#9 Is it really I will start my day better informed than I was last night thanks #9 you dont know what a difference you have made to my life.
10

Brahann,

Fife 15/09/2008 06:30:56
Let me understand this! He's ripping up his parties manifesto! Being a member of the Labour party surely this means a rejection of all of the Brown mans policies an promises. I wonder what Westminster will think of this?

How to make friends and influence people, by putting your foot in your mouth in one easy lesson!

Start as you mean to go on I say......

The fall continues!!!!!!!!!
11

spiderman,

argyll 15/09/2008 07:21:03
Isn't it a bit pathetic that this party doesn't now have any policies at all but will wait until the "outside world" tells it what to believe in? Isn't this the bottom of the political barrel?
12

Thomas1,

15/09/2008 07:30:13
How long will he last? NEXT.
13

McNasty,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 07:36:28
Mr. Gray, sad to say, is drop dead boring, in every way.


14

GM,

15/09/2008 07:48:10
"Margaret Curran, the former communities minister, has been given the role of setting up "virtual think tanks" of experts from outside politics."


so a loser picks a loser to assist?
15

jdships,

15/09/2008 07:48:38
" He is going to throw out the whole 2007 election manifesto and bring in a whole set of popular new ideas drawn up by people from outside the party."

Aye right
Doesn't say much for the New Labour " Think Tanks" !!
Doesn't say much for Gordon Brown !!!
It will take more than the "Grayfriar" to turn the Labour party , in Scotland, round !!!
16

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 15/09/2008 07:51:51
So business leaders, teachers and voluntary workers are to set the manifesto for the Labour Party? Surely they ought instead to be asking "What policies would be most beneficial to the ordinary man in the street?" and using those as the basis for their policies. Unless and until Labour learn that they have to seek consensus in Parliament instead of confrontation, they are doomed to failure. The Westminster style of bullying and hectoring the "opposition" parties doesn't work under the voting system we have. They also really need to recognise that there is a difference between aiming for the bull and talking a load of bull.
Note to editor and journo's: Iain Gray is NOT the Scottish Labour leader - he is the leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament. There's no such animal as Scottish Labour. At this rate there soon won't be any sort of Labour Party in these islands (and no bad thing there).
17

1745,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 07:52:50
As I understand it the SNP intwend to have a referendum for Independence in 2010 So where does that leave Mr Gray's 2011 manifesto?
18

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 15/09/2008 08:00:38
Mr Gray should be given a chance to succeed.

If he can clean up Scottish Labour, refurbish and modernise its policies, and give the SNumptyP a run for our money he will deserve well of us all.

SNP shines only because the rest are Toom Tabards. This situation is not good for us.
19

WatchKeeper,

Nr. Diss 15/09/2008 08:03:09
It hasn't been advertised just yet and Westminster want to keep quiet about it, but; like so much else that dribbles out from that den of thieves, the high cost of your Gas and Electricity is because you now have to pay a Tax to Brussels. But instead of including it on your bill as Tax, it is now included in the cost of the product and the Power Company pays it direct to Brussels. The Tax is to counter the "Carbon Footprint", and "Global Warming". It is nothing more than a confidence trick dreamed up by half-arsed Politicians and make believe "Experts" who advise the Government. The sooner the SNP, take control of Scotland the sooner you can get your spending under control.
Regards, ATFlynn "Norfolk's Mutineer" (www.atflynn.co.uk)
20

Rickie,

Limbo 15/09/2008 08:07:25
1. Do you think he'll be allowed to do what he says he's going too?
2. Listening to the 'people' that will never work, it's to alien a concept for them.
21

danielrober,

15/09/2008 08:11:06
I'd give Mr Gray advice and help, as i would to the Lib Dem and Conservative parties. I am becoming increasingly worried by the SNP attitude to engineering. We just can't be toyed with that much. NO money for our small update projects but £4.2 billion for a shinny bridge.

Even worse how can we walk away from successful industries like Nuclear and still pay our way in the world. Sure oil, oil, oil, but oil is only one part of the energy supply mix. Oil and Gas is also an industry that needs to attract investment, not be taxed to death.

Alec.S attitude is becoming more like 1984 each month. Not the fiction 1984, of literature but the real 1984 of closure's for politics. Closures that some communities have still not recovered from.

So I'm interested in reading a new manifesto, one based on team work. One that understands that not all our work is office friendly and shinny.
22

Scythia,

Alba 15/09/2008 08:15:21
Since when did NuLab follow what's in the their manifesto anyway. The important policiies are either not implemented or slipped in whenever it suits them. They will package it and spin it as something new and radical and then follow their own agenda.

Example - From Todays Times newspaper

Revealed: UK’s first official sharia courts

"The government has quietly sanctioned the powers for sharia judges to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence...two more courts are being planned for Glasgow and Edinburgh".

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece



This SHOULD have been in their Manifesto.
23

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/09/2008 08:15:33
#21 Oh dear. No, there are no hidden EU fuel taxes, but even if there were, how would voting for a party which wants an independent Scotland within the EU affect that?
24

pehman,

sussex 15/09/2008 08:21:19

After a year and a half of decrying the SNP and their policies as "popular and populist" andy grey has set up a policy unit to look for popular and populist policies.

Whats that old saying about impersonation being the most sincere form of flattery
25

TWC,

Ayrshire 15/09/2008 08:26:45
Mr Gray says in another place
"Yes, the job I have to do is leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament. I also have a responsibility to MPs as well as MSPs, to affili- ates but above all to the wider party membership in Scotland.

He represents the Labour Party not the Scottish people.
26

SlyFifer,

Somewhere south of Fife 15/09/2008 08:38:45
So there, by their very admission is the core of Liebour's problem. 'Seek advice from business and others outside politics'. So they see politics as divorced and seperate from the real world. Helps confirm to me just how out of touch these numpties really are. This is just like setting up a government filled with 'politicians' then seeking the help of unelected quango's (ngo's) to help them run things. Utter incompetence and of-course extra cost for the taxpayers. We can see the results of this type of politics, all around us
27

DaveK,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 08:39:56
What is it with Labour leaders and their weird quirks! Brown has the funny intake of breath at the end of every sentence and Gray's eye keeps twitching!? Ah well, I'll give him a couple of months and see if he can be his own man against the Somewhat Nauseating Pressure group.
28

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/09/2008 08:43:39
#31 By "unelected quangos", are you referring to Children's Hearings Panels, Police Boards and, picking a more recent example at random, the Scottish Futures Trust run by a retired banker and costing £17 million to set up before it does anything?

That the sort of thing you mean?
29

tommy,

belfast uk 15/09/2008 08:44:03
*21
What global warming (certainly not mmgw) it appears that as CO2 levels rise-global temperatures are falling
http://tinyurl.com/6jmyuj

I am afraid that once again vested interests are in control of our hard earned cash
Quote.."There are no plausible scientific arguments currently available which support the view that human greenhouse gas
emissions are having a detectable influence on the climate."..Unquote
http://tinyurl.com/6jy2s9

Have we had our referendum on the Lisbon Treaty???--NO
Quote.."THE European Union plans to ignore the Irish “no” vote on the Lisbon treaty and press ahead with massive spending increases to implement its provisions. "..Unquote
http://tinyurl.com/6dfj84
so much for a labour promise

They now seek even more plausible lies for their manifesto
Its hard to remove the pig from the trough
30

Rickie,

Limbo 15/09/2008 08:46:26
#25 "How many wee shops would survive post-Salmond?
"

We're opening a new 'wee shop' because of the non-domestic rates for new starts deal due to Salmond & Swinney.
31

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 08:58:53
One aide described Gray's election as leader, as a "Tony Blair moment" for the Labour Party in Scotland?

Sorry, the only thing Iain Gray has in common with Tony Blair is that both were privately educated.

Otherwise, voters can make their own comparisons, and Iain Gray is no Tony Blair!
32

Alberto.,

15/09/2008 09:03:30
Let Mr Gray console himself with winning (?)the 'Leadership'(?) over Jamieson(??) and - who-ever(????) but considering the current, and past, state of the Labour Party it certainly doesn't seem to qualify a Victory in the accepted sense of the word!

Still, no doubt, a very nice boost to earnings Pension and Perks - which is what doing / getting 'something in / out Politics' seems to be all about these days, especially for Labour members - perhaps clearly indicating they are all in touch with the 'Death throes' of the Party demise - at last!!!!
33

Darien,

Panama 15/09/2008 09:04:09
Here's a message from the business sector Mr. Gray.

You need to have economic growth as the centerpiece of your strategy. You need to reduce bureacracy for business. You need to reduce the tax on business. You need to focus on key business growth sectors and assist their development. You need to woo multinational enterprise.

And finally, but crucially, you need to vote for Scotland's independence.
34

Darien,

Panama 15/09/2008 09:06:56
#37 I hear it was Baron von Foulkesake who likened Gray to Blair. Nuff said.
35

4isbetterthan1,

Fife 15/09/2008 09:10:37
#35, Due to Annabelle Goldie. It was a Tory policy which she managed to negotiate in.
36

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/09/2008 09:15:16
#39 How on earth would reducing the size of the domestic market to 10% of its current size, increasing the costs of doing business with the rest of the world, and entering a damaging period of economic uncertainty, be something the business sector would welcome?
37

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 15/09/2008 09:19:00
"Margaret Curran, the former communities minister, has been given the role of setting up "virtual think tanks" of experts from outside politics"

Now where have we heard that phrase before? Unfortunately the person concerned was only virtually thinking which is where the mess started. So Ms Curran really has her finger on the pulse? More and more socialist dross from the champagne communists.
38

shivago8,

livingston 15/09/2008 09:34:12
Anither has been,nae doot.
A cv that does not make good reading
A tempermental man whose mooth will drive him into trouble.
His first fiery debate with the Salmond will whiten his hair mair.
Dont think he will be long in the chair and it looks like that they dont have the talent to put anyone in the chair.
A dying race.sail them back down the clyde
39

AJ Fife,

15/09/2008 09:36:33
"Iain is determined that the 2011 Scottish election manifesto will be made in Scotland, written in Scotland and for Scotland."

Maybe the boy should just defect to the SNP and be done with it!:)
40

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 15/09/2008 09:50:27
bring them on??? are you ian gray? you have his charm? your just another of the fear and smear birgade! ask yourself a question? can you tie your own shoelaces?
41

Alan B,

15/09/2008 09:59:42
#Darien

Labour in Scotland are not interested in the business sector or improving economic growth. We only have to look at the failure of their 10yrs in office to see that.

Labour are only interested in spending money and not generating the wealth to support it. Then they will have the cheek to talk about deficits if we were to go independent.
42

brownlie,

15/09/2008 10:00:06
24 daniel

"... can we walk away from successful industries like nuclear ..."

Is that not the trouble with nuclear - you cannot walk away from it? The cost of the safe disposal of nuclear waste is enormous and there is no guarantee that the disposal is permanently safe.

I suspect that like PFI this will be a problem for future generations, and future governments, to deal with.
43

Alan B,

15/09/2008 10:01:54
For Grey to gain credibility he really needs to articulate why labour failed over the last decade. Why did labour fail to match the economic growth rates of the rest of the uk and the much better peforming small european economies known as the arc of prosperity.
44

Calum10,

Dundee 15/09/2008 10:05:17
LLEST WE FORGET "Wendy Alexander's leadership acceptance speech."

"The past five weeks have been an exciting journey for me. A journey that began in Paisley with my constituents and my decision to stand as Leader. A journey that has taken me the length and breadth of Scotland from Inverness toDumfries, from Dundee to Uddingston, Edinburgh to Aberdeen, Stirling to Glasgowto meet Party members who, yes, are disheartened by the defeat in May but who remain fired with a commitment to social justice and a determination to improve the lives of hard working families in Scotland. It’s a journey that brings me here today, honoured and privileged to accept your nomination to lead our Party in the Scottish Parliament. A journey that I am determined will end with Scottish Labour back in power at Holyrood. Back in power in a Scottish Parliament that we did so much to create. The Scottish Parliament is not the child of any one political party, it belongs to the people of Scotland, but this Party certainly has better claim than most. From Keir Hardie's commitment to “Home Rule all round” as part of his platform as Labour's first MP, through the days of the Red Clydesiders, by way of John P McIntosh and John Smith, a Scottish Parliament always remained Labour's unfinished business. In the 1990s I was proud to work beside Donald Dewar as he finally accomplished ourlong held ambition. And for me personally, the place to serve the causes that this party holds dear was always to serve as a member at Holyrood. Ten years to the week from that historic vote I still believe passionately in the decision Scotland made about its future. And ten years on the progress of Scotland is a testament to the wisdom of the Scottish people’s choice. And here I also want to pay tribute to Jack McConnell. One of the great traditions of our Party is, how shall I put it, robust debate. I've known Jack for more than twenty years. We worked together from student politics, through the creation of the Parlia
45

Alan B,

15/09/2008 10:07:15
#danielrober

You say the snp are irresponsible for walking away from nuclear but previously you have said you support the lib dems who are also anti nuclear.
46

Number 6,

Germany 15/09/2008 10:09:45
Will some one please inform this sleaze tainted fantasist that he will not be shaking up policy making in the Liebour party. he is merely head of the parlimentary group of Labour mps. There is NO SUCH THING as the "Scottish" liebour party.

Brown is the leader of Liebour in Scotland, and it is london based Liebour who dictate policy. Talk about fantasies above their station. Liebour become more and more of a laughing stock with each passing day.

Gray is being portrayed as "Mr 3%" in the Englandshire media, as that is the apparent amount of Scots who want him as first minister. What a complete shower of twonks they are.
47

MacGillicuddy,

15/09/2008 10:13:22
So Curran is to set up "virtual" think tanks.
My understanding of virtual is that it means "does not actually exist" or "unreal" or even "fake".
Yep, sounds about right for Liebour!
48

brownlie,

15/09/2008 10:18:06
50 bring them on

Damn! and he was counting on your vote as well!

Not that I'm really interested but what lucky party is going to be honoured with your vote?
49

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 10:30:48
#34 tommy,

Aye, right Tommy. There are websites out there which maintain that the earth is flat too - at least there would be if there was an advantage for Exxon in maintaining that to be the case.
50

Linda,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 10:33:01
SNP a one man band according to Hamish.

He should speak to senior Civil Servants who have told me that apart from Salmond, Swinney, Sturgeon and MacAskill are head and shoulders above previous cabinet ministers in Scotland.
51

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 10:51:58
#24 danielrober,
"how can we walk away from successful industries like Nuclear"
Without wishing to be diverted from the thread, I can't let this pass without correction.
This is the industry that had its enormous capital debt written off to allow it to be privatised but still needed to be bailed out by public money a few years later.
Have a look at table 6 on page 8 here -

http://www.psiru.org/reports/2005-09-E-Nuclear.pdf

for an indication of how successful our nuclear industry has been.
The British nuclear industry's 23 stations average 317th position in efficiency out of 414 worldwide. There is 1 in the top 50 and 1 other in the top 200.
The only thing they have ever been successful at is fleecing the public purse.
52

Alfie Bett,

15/09/2008 10:54:01
Gordon's latest Holyrood golem will do exactly as he's telt by Broon or his successor, end of ! Cathy Jamieson might have had a modicum of gumption to have some independent thought but unfortunately like the majority of labour MSP's she doesn't come across as being very bright.The Scotsman's assessment of Gray was a bit flattering and most people who read it will recall his performance on newsnight where Gordon Brewer reduced him to a stammering,sweating wreck.
Although I expect to see some show of Gray dissagreeing with Westminster it will be well set up rehearsed minor stuff thats not going to fool anyone except the gullible.
53

danielrober,

15/09/2008 10:57:55
# 59 Embra Don,

When you step out of political economic planning and back into the real world, you'll find our stations were the first. In fact the German and Japanese systems are directly based on our designs. In fact Tornesss for the Japanese systems. Therefore you are talking about an older generation of Nuclear power stations.

Alec.S is basing his assessments on designs from the late 1960's. Over 40 years ago. What we need here in Scotland/UK are the new designs such as the brilliant one used for the Royal Navy.

But hey your man is still living in the middle of the 20th century. To be called a luddite is not a complement.
54

danielrober,

15/09/2008 10:59:55
#52 Alan B

I have also said i'll look at backing the conservatives as well. In the end i'll chose on the basis of the candidate, not the party.
55

bluehead,

edinburgh 15/09/2008 11:04:05
what makes the Gray man think that business men ,teachers ,voluntary workers etc,want to help him
beat the SNP,the labour party have stank out this country to such an extent that it is beyond repair,it seems the labour lot can't sleep at night until they have thought of something else to make the people suffer,as for Gordon Brown,I wouldn't give him a job selling boot laces -what a worthless pile,!!the quicker they are out of office the better.
56

Florence,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 11:06:15
Ian Gray is not the Labour leader in Scotland. That is Gordon Brown, his master. Mr. Gray is the leader of the Labour Party in Holyrood and his wings were well and truly clipped by Des Browne when he (Gray) tried to stretch them and the remit of his leadership.
57

Number 6,

Germany 15/09/2008 11:06:52
Astonishing that Brown would put Curran in charge of anything ! Is he not aware this woman is a pathalogical liar ? or like the rest of Liebour, does he simply not care that she was rejected completley in a safe Liebour seat. Does nothing get through to this arrogant shower ?.
58

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 11:08:21
61 danielrober

Are you seriously suggesting scaling up military reactors for commercial power stations?
59

Florence,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 11:13:14
24, dainelrober: What is a shinny bridge? This is a term new to me.
60

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 11:13:22
61 danielrober

If you look at he list, the old ones which have been de-commissioned are not included. Admittedly the UK has a history of, in effect, building every generation as prototypes with the arrogance which comes from unlimited and unquestioning public funding. That does not make them either successful or efficient though.
61

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 11:15:29
61 danielrober

Sorry - I have fallen straight into the trap. This thread is about the new leader of the Labour group in Holyrood.

The Nuke debate is a distraction.
62

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 11:20:51
63 bluehead, edinburgh

Can't agree that Scotland is beyond repair. It just needs some positive attitudes and self belief - but it is not in the interests of the unionist parties to encourage that sort of positive thinking. They have got away with peddling the myth of Scotland as a basket case because it suited their purposes.
63

Alex Salmond's Briefcase Carrier,

@floorlaughingmadly 15/09/2008 11:42:57
This just means that when Gordon Brown or Des Browne says jump, Iain Gray will ask:
how high sir?
yes sir,
thank you sir,
it won't happen again sir,
sorry to have upset you sir.
64

Venachar,

15/09/2008 11:48:07
"Virual think tanks" more stupidity from that harpie woman!
65

Tynietiger,

15/09/2008 11:50:02
The Reservoir Dogs Mr Brown the Director and Mr Gray the Loser (how many other Labour parliamentarians in Scotland have lost a seat to the Tories in last 30 years)
will bring Robbery, Blood, Violence and Torture.. (in form of higher fuel bills) to the comfort of your own home.
66

Embra Don,

15/09/2008 11:56:55
Margaret Curran has been tasked with setting up "virtual think tanks".

She will presumably work from her virtual home in the virtual Labour heartland of Glasgow East.........
67

Resolutions,

15/09/2008 12:13:19
OK Gray is the Leader in Holyrood and apparently must submit anything to the red pen doon sooth. Know who he is now (I think), but who is this deputy?

Alex Salmond does have a team - a good team and a lot are well recognised and willing to mix - inlike the Labour lot.
68

brownlie,

15/09/2008 12:17:10
It seems Ian Gray has ruled out a referendum. The first indication of knowing his place in the party structure.
69

Ananurhing,

15/09/2008 12:29:47
If you take a step back and look at this, the appointment of Gray is tantamount to throwing the towel in. Where was he on westminster's wish list? Fifth, sixth, or seventh choice? He wasn't even on the radar till recently. An incredible choice, literally!

Whoops there goes another one. Barry Gardener Labour MP, sacked for speaking his mind.
So this is what meltdown looks like. Labour are just in the way now. Their credibility is tumbling by the minute.
70

Jambo Dave,

Edinburgh 15/09/2008 12:39:47
Why do they have to change policy?Because we voted SNP,have you got that Labour voters.If you want whats best for Scotland and the Scotish people vote SNP.The only way to get our share is to keep them out, it was the same the last time we gave SNP a few seats.Its changed now we can see what a good choice they have been in power so far.It wont all be plain sailling we know this but its time for a change.
I was Labour through and through until Mr Brown chopped my pension with his tax change and some of there other tricks.I had a closer look at them and will not vote for them ever again.
This must be there worst nightmare with someone shinning a light into some of they darkest corners.
Labour you took me and others for granted for to long now move over your time has gone.
71

TWC,

Ayrshire 15/09/2008 12:46:29
Yup he relly damaged pensions and then he means tested everything but sex.
I won't say never but Labour will need to show Scotland controlling it's own resources to get me to even consider voting for them again.
I want to be able to see what Scotland's contribution is in future.
72

Weegiewarbler,

Docked for the day 15/09/2008 13:12:31
A partial article analysis.
What it REALLY says.

"BUSINESS leaders, teachers and voluntary workers from outside the Labour Party are going to be brought in to help the party find the radical edge it needs to beat the SNP in 2011."

We will speak to selected groups of our choosing (no "open invitation")
++++

"Iain Gray, Labour's new leader in Scotland, is determined to change completely the way the party makes policy."

Lacks statement "has authority to" - or "has been given authority" - in view of Des's statements this might be needed...
+++

He is going to throw out the whole 2007 election manifesto and bring in a whole set of popular new ideas drawn up by people from outside the party.

Sounds like the National Conversation - beleive it when they START working with the government for the national benefit.
++++


"Margaret Curran, the former communities minister, has been given the role of setting up "virtual think tanks" of experts from outside politics. There will be one from business, one from the voluntary sector and one from education."

To quote others - the "street fighter" - is in the opinion of the new Labour MSP leader - the nurturer best suited to help these fledgling groups grow...
Why put a (based upon interviews for Glasgow East) domineering street fighter in this process unless you wish it drastically influenced from the outset.
++++

"The ideas that these groups come up with will be then be fed in to the Scottish Labour Party policy-making process and have a good chance of getting into the party's 2011 election manifesto."

Who decides what's acceptable and not acceptable - seems (on past performance) that if it meets with Westminster approval it will be acceptable
++++

"Mr Gray is adamant that he will accept good ideas from any sources, inside and outside the party, even if they clash with policies agreed by the UK Labour Party for England."

ANY ? Might just FIRST want to see how well he starts to work with th
73

Jimmy Le Pie,

15/09/2008 13:20:44
Same old rhetoric

Same old drivel

New Labour Sleaze still don't get the fact that they're out of power in Scotland and about to get totally wiped out in the General Election.

No one is interested in the same old rubbish.

New Labour Sleaze treated the electorate with contempt and still refuse to believe they're heading for oblivion.

And as for a bunch of losers getting together to draw up radical policies - don't make me laugh!!!

Resign with what little dignity you have left, and fade away to your directorships and armourplated pensions.

VOTE SNP
74

Itsanobrainer-Vote SNP,

Sunny South of France 15/09/2008 13:35:50
54 MacGillicuddy, you beat me to it. What's with the 'virtual' think tanks? That'll go with their virtual policies, virtual ideas and virtual talent. What a great leader he'll be. No plan of his own, brain dead. Bring on FMQ
75

Mack1,

Carlisle 15/09/2008 13:37:59
Talk about re-arranging the furniture on the decks of the Titanic.

Still, no doubt the new policy document, when it finally emerges, will be peppered with phrases such as "no more boom and bust".

Perhaps Mr Gray will consult also consult with "Capability": after all the man who, as Chancellor, single-handedly destroyed private pensions and presided over the loss of 1 million jobs in the manufacturing sector is well qualified to offer new ideas and "initiatives" for micro-managing further economic decline.
76

danielrober,

15/09/2008 13:38:44
# 69 Embra Don,

Look i'm not trying to trick anyone but certain elected officials are. The nuclear business is booming, with a potential 300 power stations built over the next 30 years. This is work, this is what we do best and it can provide a heck of a lot of jobs.

We have some of the best nuclear designs in the world and all a few nutter politicos can see is the single issue vote. This is not like the coal mines, disaster that, that was. If we walk away from this industry there might be over 10,000 jobs lost in Scotland.

These are not low paid positions but some of the best people we have. Not just in industry, but academia, government, environmental assessment, marketing, finance, banking, lease hire, not to mention 1000's of transport jobs. This is an entire industry. Its not a game, for 0.5% voting margin.

We can not just repalce these jobs, in a decade or so. To think that we can is STUPID and ARROGANT. Sorry guys but your charging for the guns and your going to kill our economy.
77

danielrober,

15/09/2008 13:39:25
Oh by the way i'm not amember of the labour party.
78

Ananurhing,

15/09/2008 13:43:48
Presumably Gray's willingness to listen to ideas from outside the party, and to embrace the message from Glasgow East, will have to mean an autonomous Scottish Labour party, fiscal autonomy, and an abandonment of the council tax.

I'll not hold my breath. He's westminster's man through and through. "Spent all day with Des Browne yesterday". Recieving his brief from the Guv'ner! Start as you mean to continue.
79

MacGillicuddy,

15/09/2008 14:03:35
#82
As a physicist (now happily retiredI I get really uppity at the misuse of certain words like "virtual" Don't even get me started on the total public misunderstanding of the word quantum!!
80

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 15/09/2008 14:23:08
Putting Magga Curran - a "virtual" resident of East Glasgow - in charge of anything more complex than running for coffee and do-nuts is a clear indication that Gray is delusional.
Aren't there some qualifications needed to run a "think tank."
Such as the ability to think beyond your own self-interest.
81

Alan B,

15/09/2008 14:41:45
After the next election will labour be a "virtual party".
82

Itsanobrainer-Vote SNP,

Sunny South of France 15/09/2008 15:27:18
Perhaps in their virtual reality world, they might win the next election! Also, is it actually Magga Curran in charge or a virtual Magga

Sorry, getting boring now with the virtual theme

83

brownlie,

15/09/2008 15:48:23
I can just imagine Ian Gray fumbling around in Wendy's drawers and then like the shop-keeper in Little Britain shouting "Margaret, Margaret" and when M/s Curran(for it is she) replies, he shout "Have we got a copy of our last manifesto as I'm instructed to rip it up?"

She replies "Have you looked under "Fiction" and tragedy is averted and they all lived happily ever after in their home in the East End of Glasgow.
84

Resolutions,

15/09/2008 15:48:58
#90 Think they are in 'virtual' world still. Have they really accepted that they lost in 2007?

Who is the deputy or is she another 'virtual'?
85

MoClana,

15/09/2008 16:12:19
Oh Hamish, give us a break with this anti Alex Salmond mince..... Your point scoring analysis is pathetic. It basically comes down to

Iain Gray - very nice man, potentially brilliant.

Alex Salmond - Bully, horrible man, pottentially destructive.

Get over it Hamish, Scotland is not being held against her will, we actually voted for Alex Salmond, we voted for change, we want change, we are optimistic of change. If you think some gray faced Unionist pretending to speak for Scotland after 50 years of decay and neglect....is going to change minds over night, you have truly gone mental!

86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/09/2008 16:13:13
Ripping up his party's manifesto?

That should be excellent cannon fodder for the SNP.
87

Chris42,

15/09/2008 16:23:29
58 Linda: "SNP a one man band according to Hamish.
He should speak to senior Civil Servants who have told me that apart from Salmond, Swinney, Sturgeon and MacAskill are head and shoulders above previous cabinet ministers in Scotland."

I too have heard that senior Scottish civil servants have been very impressed with SNP Govt.
88

Ken S.,

Reading 15/09/2008 16:56:46
If any party "rips up its manifesto" to start again, does that not suggest that it has no core beliefs but is simply trying to find a magic formula for re-election.

Agree with SNP's aims or not but it has stuck to its core belief for a very long time.

btw:
#9 lulach mac gille coemgain,
"The Scotsman is a Sussex publication in disguise .."

No, Johnston Press PLC is an Edinburgh group that owns a variety of local and regional papers throughout UK and RoI
89

Western Gael,

15/09/2008 18:09:52
It's a wonder the 2007 Labour Manifesto lasted into 2008. To ditch it now is admission that their manifesto was manifestly inappropriate for both a minority party and for Scotland. Does anyone with an intelligence quotient above room temperature believe that the new version will be, or fare, any better?
90

danielrober,

15/09/2008 19:09:22
#95 Chris42

Excuse me, are you saying that senior civil servants are becoming involved with politics? I was under the impression that this was against their code of conduct- not to be involved with party politics.

Can you clarify what you have posted?
91

Pro Libertate,

The dark side of the moon 15/09/2008 19:52:42
I stuggle at times to understand the logic of some Scotsman writers.

• POLICIES: 5/10
Mr Gray is starting from scratch. He cannot be held responsible for past mistakes but he also cannot come at the SNP with coherent, well-worked policies.

• POLICIES: 5/10 (Alex Salmond)
Mr Salmond has done well with populist policies but things are going to get much harder when he introduces key financial policies.

Yet at the same time: "He (Iain Gray) is going to throw out the whole 2007 election manifesto and bring in a whole set of popular new ideas drawn up by people from outside the party."

So logically he is going to move from 5/10 to, . . . well 5/10 if the Hootsman has to be believed.

Also, "Margaret Curran, the former communities minister, has been given the role of setting up "virtual think tanks" of experts from outside politics."

Is this not the problem with politics, from the so called big players, in general? Experts telling the politicians what the masses want, but frequently getting it all wrong.

So Mr Gray, if you want my vote I would like to see the following introduced into your manifesto:

1) An end to handouts for those who do not want to work. (Thousand of hard working, tax paying people work for a living in this country, so why are the lazy the only ones to avoid work and paying tax? Bring back soup kitchens if required or vouchers for food, but DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY.)

2) A re-introducion of the belt in all schools.

3) Social inclusion in schools does not work for all - ask any teacher and (privately) and they will acknowledge this. Bring back List D schools and give the decent kids in school a fair deal again - who said, 'education, education, education'?

4) A re-introduction of the birch to quell the yobs/neds/thugs etc. Justice within 24 hours.

5) A re-introduction of hanging for murderers.

6) Drug dealing is a capital offence.

7) When is Scotland ever going to use a nuclear weapon in anger? Scrap Trident.

8
92

Pro Libertate,

The dark side of the moon 15/09/2008 19:54:52
So Mr Gray, if you want my vote I would like to see the following introduced into your manifesto:

1) An end to handouts for those who do not want to work. (Thousand of hard working, tax paying people work for a living in this country, so why are the lazy the only ones to avoid work and paying tax? Bring back soup kitchens if required or vouchers for food, but DO NOT GIVE THEM MONEY.)

2) A re-introducion of the belt in all schools.

3) Social inclusion in schools does not work for all - ask any teacher and (privately) and they will acknowledge this. Bring back List D schools and give the decent kids in school a fair deal again - who said, 'education, education, education'?

4) A re-introduction of the birch to quell the yobs/neds/thugs etc. Justice within 24 hours.

5) A re-introduction of hanging for murderers.

6) Drug dealing is a capital offence.

7) When is Scotland ever going to use a nuclear weapon in anger? Scrap Trident.

8) All the PC (BS) rules that have been made up in the last 20 years need to be 're-evaluated' (another term for ditched) and common sense approach adopted.

Did I miss any?
93

Richard Lionheart,

15/09/2008 20:53:15
What do Scottish Voters want from Scottish Labour?

They should dis-band.