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Government mired in 'sleaze' row over Trump development

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Published Date: 14 December 2007
THE SNP was last night embroiled in its biggest scandal since coming to power, amid allegations of sleaze over its handling of Donald Trump's £1 billion planning application.
Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond with Deputy First Minster Nicola Sturgeon during First Minister's Questions at the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.
Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond with Deputy First Minster Nicola Sturgeon during First Minister's Questions at the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.

Opposition politicians said the ultimate decision on the golf-resort development would now be open to legal challenge because of a series of meetings between ministers, civil servants and the Trump organisation.

During a furious First Minister's questions, Alex Salmond was accused of breaching the ministerial code of conduct by favouring the tycoon's firm over objectors to the proposals.

And the neutrality of the Scottish Government's chief planner was called into question after it emerged he had a telephone conversation with Aberdeenshire Council's chief executive, while two of the billionaire's key staff were in his office.

A planning expert told The Scotsman that behind-the-scenes conversations between ministers, government officials and developers was not normal practice, and questions had to be asked.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, was dragged into the scandal when it was revealed he had enjoyed hospitality at a Trump resort days before the application was controversially "called in", giving him the final say on its future.

The furore stretched to Westminster, where Harriet Harman, the Leader of the Commons, pledged to raise concerns about the handling of the application with Des Browne, the Scotland Secretary. At the same time, campaigners against the plan at the Menie Estate, near Balmedie, called for a public inquiry.

Nicol Stephen, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, triggered the debate when he revealed in the Scottish Parliament that two senior Trump International employees had been in the office of the Scottish Government's chief planner, Jim McKinnon, at Victoria Quay, Leith, on Tuesday, 4 December – the day the application was called in.

The men, Neil Hobday and George Sorial, were present when Mr McKinnon made a telephone call to Alan Campbell, the chief executive of Aberdeenshire Council. Both sides say the call was made to establish the procedure that would be followed at a special meeting of Aberdeenshire Council, scheduled for Wednesday, 12 December.

Two hours later, Mr McKinnon again called the council's chief executive, but this time to tell him that the Scottish Government would be calling in the application.

The Scottish Government says the decision to call in the development was made by Mr Swinney, although he is typically advised by the chief planner.

Mr Stephen said: "This is a serious situation for the First Minister and his government. Every step of the way, there is contradiction, concealment and cleverness from his government on this issue. It smells of sleaze."

He called on the First Minister to order an independent inquiry to "investigate what happened in those 48 hours last Monday and Tuesday, to find out why the developers were present with the chief planner on the very day that their application was called in, to examine what pressure the chief planner was put under by ministers to take these potentially prejudicial actions that now jeopardise this project".

Mr Salmond insisted his behaviour on the matter had "followed exactly the rule book".

But Annabel Goldie, the Tory leader, joined the attack, accusing him of breaching the ministerial code by meeting Trump representatives in the days between the council rejecting the application and it being called in.

Mr Salmond has already come under fire for a meeting with Trump aides at the upmarket Marcliffe at Pitfodels Hotel in Aberdeen.

Ms Goldie said: "Can I ask the First Minister why, contrary to the ministerial code, he met only the developer during this critical period of four days and in so doing took action, which, to quote the ministerial code, 'could be seen as prejudicial to the process'."

Mr Salmond told her he had previously met some of those opposed to the Trump plan and stressed: "As the constituency member for Gordon, I am excluded from any involvement in the determination of the proposed development."

He said that, as First Minister, he had been advised not to make any comment on the plan, in case it was interpreted as being either for or against it. But Ms Goldie said: "Astonishingly, as First Minister, he was not even-handed, he was cack-handed. Either this is ignorance or arrogance, and ignorance is not a condition with which I associate the First Minister."

The Tory leader also claimed he had taken a special adviser to the Marcliffe, but Mr Salmond said the staff member was a constituency secretary.

He also said Scotland's top civil servant, the permanent secretary Sir John Elvidge, had "made it perfectly clear that the use of government car was entirely appropriate".

Later, Ms Goldie said: "So far, this has been a tale of denial, cover-up and evasion. There is a stench surrounding the government's handling of this affair. If this application fails, and Scotland loses this billion-pound investment, the Scottish Government will only have itself to blame."

Trevor Davies, a planning expert, said: "Clearly, the ministers and civil servants were talking to Trump before the local authority had a chance to make a decision. That's odd to me."

Meanwhile, it emerged Mr Swinney had been at a gala dinner at an exclusive Trump International resort in New York on 2 December, two days before he called in the planning application.

His office insisted no Trump officials were at the VisitScotland-hosted event at Trump Golf Village in Westchester, New York, and that he had never met or spoken to any Trump representatives.

A spokeswoman for the tourism agency said the event had been organised for months and that market value was paid for the use of the venue.

Mr Swinney claimed later it would have been "discourteous" for him to refuse to attend.

The Green MSP Patrick Harvie said: "It is at least odd that this application was called in by John Swinney the very day after he spoke at an event where the entertainment included a complimentary game of golf at Mr Trump's expense."

And the Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said Mr Swinney's visit raised "serious questions about his judgment".

The developments came the day after Martin Ford was sacked as convener of Aberdeenshire Council's infrastructure services committee after his casting vote vetoed the plans.

He said since that vote, "the application has been treated anything but normally, by both the applicant, who didn't do what we would expect – either appeal or prepare to resubmit – but also by the government".

He called for "an absolute commitment" of a public inquiry.

Mickey Foote, of Sustainable Aberdeenshire, which is opposed to the Trump plan, said: "Scottish politics is being shamed."

UNDER FIRE FROM EVERY QUARTER

"Every step of the way there is contradiction, concealment and cleverness from his government on this issue. It smells of sleaze."

Nicol Stephen, leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats

"The point for ensuring there was a Scottish Parliament was to devolve power from Westminster to people in Scotland, not to suck up power from local authorities and place them in Edinburgh."

Harriet Harman, leader of the House of Commons

"It is at least odd that this application was called in by John Swinney the very day after he spoke at an event where the entertainment included a complimentary game of golf at Mr Trump's expense."

Patrick Harvie, Green MSP

"If ministers and civil servants are talking to major developers in secret, without telling the local authority, and prior to the local authority making a decision, and then they call it in when they don't like the decision, that seems to me like the wrong process."

Trevor Davies, planning expert

"It's pantomime season and I don't know if this is Jack and the Beanstalk or Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs."

Mickey Foote of Sustainable Aberdeenshire

"I think the most important thing that could be established now would be for the government as quickly as possible to give an absolute commitment there will be a full public inquiry to look at the application."

Martin Ford, Aberdeenshire councillor

Q&A: KEY FIGURES IN THE ROW

Which members of the Scottish Government are caught up in the Trump planning controversy?

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, and John Swinney, the finance secretary, have both come under fire.

When did Mr Salmond get involved?

He met Trump representatives in an Aberdeen hotel on 3 December.

But isn't that appropriate, given he is MSP for Gordon, where the Menie Estate falls?

He says yes, because he was acting in his constituency role, rather than as First Minister.

What does Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tories' leader, say?

She says he's breached the Ministerial Code of Conduct because he was acting as First Minister – as shown by the fact he used a ministerial car.

What about John Swinney?

Two days before he called in the Trump planning application, Mr Swinney attended a function at the company's exclusive development in Westchester, New York State.

So did he accept corporate hospitality from the developers?

No. The dinner was organised by VisitScotland to promote Scottish business. VisitScotland paid market rate for the venue.

What does "calling in the application" mean?

The Scottish Government asserts its authority over the local authority and has the final say on whether the development goes ahead.

Is that common practice?

It often happens if there is an appeal against a council's decision – but it is unprecedented for it to happen before then.

Would anyone have advised Mr Swinney to call it in?
The chief planning officer is Jim McKinnon, who would be the top civil servant advising ministers on such issues.

Has he come in for criticism?

He had a phone conversation with Alan Campbell, the chief executive of Aberdeenshire Council, when two Trump organisation staff members were in his office. Mr Campbell asked that they leave his office.

What was the conversation about?

A special council meeting to be held after the infrastructure services committee rejected the application.

When did it happen?

Hours before Mr McKinnon called Mr Campbell back to tell him that the planning application was being called in.

HACKING AWAY - HOW TRUMPTOWN BECAME BUNKERED IN CONTROVERSY

OCT 2005
Jack McConnell, the then first minister, meets Donald Trump at his Trump Towers HQ in New York.

APRIL 2006
The Menie Estate is revealed as the location for a £1bn golf course. Already there are concerns from environmentalists while the plan is welcomed elsewhere.

MAY 2006
McConnell is the first minister to be accused of breaching ministerial guidelines by getting too close to Mr Trump.

MAY 2007
Alex Salmond is elected First Minister. He is also elected MSP for Gordon, which includes Menie, and that bars him from having anything to do with the planning process.

20 NOV, 2007
Aberdeenshire Council's Formartine area committee approves the plans by seven votes to four.

29 NOV, 2007
The authority's infrastructure services committee throws out the plans on the casting vote of the Lib Dem chairman Martin Ford. This means, ultimately, Aberdeenshire Council has turned down the application.

2 DEC, 2007
John Swinney, the finance secretary, attends a Global Scots function at one of Trump's golf and country clubs in New York State. Officials insist he did not meet any Trump representative.

3 DEC, 2007
Salmond meets two senior Trump aides at a hotel on the outskirts of
Aberdeen. He is travelling in a ministerial car but officials later insist the meeting is strictly in his capacity as an MSP and has nothing to do with the planning process. Meanwhile Trump has issued an ultimatum: planning approval within 30 days or the project moves to Ireland.

DEC 4, 2007
Holyrood's chief planner phones the chief executive of Aberdeenshire Council. The same two Trump aides are in the planner's room. Later, there is another call from the chief planner, to say ministers have taken control or "called in" the decision.

9 DEC, 2007
It emerges that Salmond held a meeting with Trump officials the day before the decision was "called in". Officials insist it was in his capacity as an MSP.

12 DEC, 2007
An emergecy meeting of the full Aberdeenshire Council votes by 26 to 10 to sack Ford as a committee chairman.

14 DEC, 2007
It emerges Trump aides were present when the chief planner spoke to Aberdeenshire Council. It is also confirmed Swinney had been at the Trump resort.



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1

`The Maltese Falcon`,

14/12/2007 00:02:04
The SNP has my full backing and well done so far in you good governance of Scotland
2

Wait a minute,

Town 14/12/2007 00:07:19
How desperate is this paper to pick up on the Lib Dems pathetic attempts at manufacturing a scandal? Jim McKinnon is above reproach and has acted exactly as he would have for ANY political leadership - he was Chief Planner BEFORE the SNP Government!! Under Labour and the Lib Dems. This is just another excuse to try to undermine Scottish self Belief.
3

baffies away,

14/12/2007 00:09:16
I love Nicol Stephens comment - Every step of the way there is...cleverness! so he is lambasting the Government for being smart??!!
4

baffies away,

14/12/2007 00:10:15
I love Nicol Stephens comment - Every step of the way there is...cleverness! so he is lambasting the Government for being smart??!!
5

Wini,

Scots in England 14/12/2007 00:12:18
Well well. The Muslim loving, terrorist friendly SNP show themselves up yet again. Clealry they have been taking backhanders from Trump. Vile
6

,

14/12/2007 00:13:13
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7

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:15:15
Hold on wait a minute, it is not pathetic to ask about any sort of activity that politicians get up to, especially when lots of money are involved. AS has hardly put a foot wrong, but he has now, he would not be the first to put a civil servant under pressure, it does smell. No amount of bluster will take the smell away.
8

democrate,

central Scotland 14/12/2007 00:15:16
Another non-story to deflect attention from Wendy?
9

`The Maltese Falcon`,

14/12/2007 00:15:24
#6 wini. i have reported your post for its vile language, expect it to be deleted
10

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:15:45
I wonder why Nicol Stephen's interventions on a planning matter in his constituency did not smell of sleaze. What selective olfactory senses unionists have. Nicol Stephen has not said that admitted illegality of taking, criminally, dodgy donations "smells of sleaze" - what weird priorities. One might think these are just political smears
11

`The Maltese Falcon`,

14/12/2007 00:16:17
#1 hut hut
12

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:17:04
AM2 I agree it needs looking at the ticker tape box is niaive to say the least. The smell checker was a big help.
13

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:17:32
AM2 I agree it needs looking at the ticker tape box is niaive to say the least. The smell checker was a big help.
14

`The Maltese Falcon`,

14/12/2007 00:17:44
#11 Ayrshire. i have reported wini as i do not like her retoric he/she is done for
15

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:19:34
15. Quite right, Wini is clearly an extremist and possibly dangerous. I am concerned about Trump people being in the planner's office? What is that about? Still doesn't equal taking illegal money, and the development is in the interests of the area, with all party and local support
16

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:20:14
Apologies for double entry, cannot figure that one out. Oh did not realise they was such a small page so pressed refresh to view message, that must have done it.
17

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 14/12/2007 00:20:53
It doesn't really come across as a critical 'sleaze' story to me. The STV news tried to run with it yesterday but Reporting Scotland didn't seem interested. The real sleaze story is the Labour donations scandal. What did Nicol Stephen have to say about that? Strangely, very little.
18

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:21:54
Apologies for double entry, cannot figure that one out. Oh did not realise they was such a small page so pressed refresh to view message, that must have done it.
19

TommyKaye,

UK 14/12/2007 00:21:58
JACK DROMEY, Labour party treasurer and husband of Harriet Harman - who took a £5,000 donation from David Abrahams and borrowed £50,000 for her deputy leadership campaign - has got himself a new nickname. The Loan Arranger
20

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:23:38
still a suckky site hate ti dont want to play. chang eit back
21

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:24:05
mwah ha ha it workd have been unmoderated.
22

`The Maltese Falcon`,

14/12/2007 00:24:52
#16 Ayrshire. Indeed she/he is puss. Now i dont think the SNP has done anything wrong and i hail their involvement on the Trump thing. It is to big for a rural council run by the Lib/dems to handle. jesus if it were left to them , trump would be buolding a crazy golf with 4 holes and a toy london bus on it
23

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:26:02
23 LOL. Indeed, you sum up Unionist ambition, aspiration and views of Scotland well.
24

Eve,

Scotland 14/12/2007 00:27:21
#6 Wini: Thats your opinon!!!! Thou odd cause the SNP aren't the ones who have money given from folk who don't pay taxs here. Or is this an exclusive that Trump (how ever it's spelt) pays taxs within the UK. It's only the labour party that have taken donations from illegal sourse. You forget they'd have to declare more than £1,000. I dought they'd sell out for £995 or was it £950. Now I have no idea if I've explain this properly as they layout of this web site is worped and my are getting sore and sorer by the min.
25

Craig Cockburn,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 00:28:54
Another Scotsman/Opposition party storm in a teacup. The SNP called in the proposal because this is a huge investment that didn't even go before the whole council and got rejected on the basis of the chairman's vote (Inow sacked). The opposition parties are just making hay rather than focussing on the real issue of whether they support the proposal or nor. They should get over it and start looking after the interests of the development and the economy of the North East rather than political point scoring against the SNP.
26

Roger Thomas,

Celtic Lion Ltd 14/12/2007 00:28:58
Soon they will start drawing parallels with new labour in 97 and Bernie Eccelstone and tobbacco F1 thing
27

,

14/12/2007 00:29:13
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28

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:30:28
28 Hello fakey (extra space after name) - are you thinking of me as your hands move frantically (one of them over the keyboard) x x x
29

Roger Thomas,

Celtic Lion Ltd 14/12/2007 00:31:11
Soon they will start drawing parallels with new labour in 97 and Bernie Eccelstone and tobbacco F1 thing
30

,

14/12/2007 00:31:26
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31

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:32:42
31 I assume your legal action (chuckle) against me hasn't progressed as far as you hoped? Pity. Kisses and that
32

,

14/12/2007 00:33:34
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33

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:33:46
Apologies for double entry, cannot figure that one out. Oh did not realise they was such a small page so pressed refresh to view message, that must have done it.
34

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:34:57
Thought so. To the moderator; it appears to me that there is a problem with the refresh icon. I am using Firefox, as the web browser, some urchin has probably not got round to checking what happens when use Firefox. Please have a look before you go live.
35

,

14/12/2007 00:34:58
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,

14/12/2007 00:35:00
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,

14/12/2007 00:35:44
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:36:41
38 Hoos Poos Maltese tranny!
39

,

14/12/2007 00:37:35
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,

14/12/2007 00:38:09
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karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:38:32
argggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh im stuck here now with the . i cant sign out now.
42

,

14/12/2007 00:38:59
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,

14/12/2007 00:39:19
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robthom,

abdn 14/12/2007 00:39:43
In a recent interview Trump said "I’m not a turn-the-other-cheek guy, My thing is, if you’re attacked, attack them back in spades. I love doing it. It’s natural for me to be a combative person. I love having enemies and I love having friends. My style of deal-making is quite simple and straightforward. I aim very high, then I keep pushing and pushing and pushing to get what I’m after. Sometimes I settle for less than I sought – but in most cases I still end up with what I want.” He had a long running feud with Rosie O’Donnell, comedienne and chat-show hostess, who branded him a “snake-oil salesman”. He declared war, dismissing her as a “mental midget, a low life”, and took the credit when her contract was not renewed. Sir Richard Branson also emerged from an encounter with Trump with his nose bloodied after daring to launch a show in the US that mirrored Trump’s The Apprentice. Trump cast doubt on Branson’s business successes, saying acidly: “He’s full of hot air, like his balloons.” Branson was trounced in the ratings, leaving Trump to continue picking up £1.5million an episode for the programme, which Sir Alan Sugar hosts in the UK. “Revenge is good,” Trump once said. “When a person screws you, screw them back 15 times over.” Trump’s biggest skill, aside from making money, is self-promotion. His name on Trump Tower, a peach-coloured, 58-storey landmark that he overcame planning objections to build, is said to be so large that it is visible from planes coming into land in New York. He clashed regularly with the city’s architectural guardians as he reshaped the skyline. One of his few failures was a scheme to construct the world’s tallest building. He launched Trump mineral water, a board game with notes bearing his face and Donald Trump the fragrance but it is in property and land where he has made most of his £1.5billion fortune since coming back from the verge of bankruptcy in the Eighties. He has five golf courses, admitting that he adores the sport because owni
45

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:40:39
get meout of here how do i log out so i can log back in as my other karins.
46

,

14/12/2007 00:41:08
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karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:41:21
what is going on get me out of here
48

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:42:42
disaster i am stuck atcomment 30
49

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:44:05
44 and 47 you heap big fakie.
50

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:44:36
right how do i log outit wont let me.
51

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:44:51
everytime i come back it knows its me
52

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:45:25
Karin M the secret of success is here is to have log in with one browser ie. IE and then use the other Firefox to see what is going on.
53

karin.m,

arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 14/12/2007 00:45:27
arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
54

karin.m,

14/12/2007 00:46:14
but i manged to log outt the first time and now it wont let me.
55

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:46:55
55 Marinka. I had same thing, but now i have all comments on one page!
56

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:47:19
55 - check hpb
57

,

14/12/2007 00:47:52
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,

14/12/2007 00:48:39
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:49:30
55 - check hpb
60

,

14/12/2007 00:49:35
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61

,

14/12/2007 00:50:43
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62

AJM,

14/12/2007 00:51:53
This is so good , what does a little testing do, is this a trump internet software development. Certainly smells like it . I was involved in something like this in a previous life, it came from the good ol USA. Where is this from? I am sure that it will not harm any wildlife nor need AS to don a wig but what a dismal start.
63

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 00:53:04
55 - check hpb
64

,

14/12/2007 00:54:49
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,

14/12/2007 00:55:14
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Wini,

14/12/2007 00:55:26
Karin My PC is acting up. Obviously your knowledge is better than mine. Can you help me?
67

,

14/12/2007 00:55:43
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,

14/12/2007 00:56:43
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Freeman Stand,

14/12/2007 00:59:25
Nicol Stephen was in bed with the Labour Party for years and failed to sniff out sleaze in the Labour Party where it is a way of life as we can see from Wendy Alexander's team soliciting illegal donations. It suited his nose not to be working when he was sharing power with the most corrupt politicians in Scotland.
70

karin m,

14/12/2007 00:59:37
now im mee two again this site suckee big time muchee muchee and in answer to your question yes and it was still bool okcs
71

,

14/12/2007 00:59:49
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,

14/12/2007 01:00:55
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karin m,

14/12/2007 01:01:45
go9d this is awful wini you naw moderated yet i reported ye.
74

,

14/12/2007 01:01:56
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,

14/12/2007 01:02:52
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,

14/12/2007 01:03:17
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,

14/12/2007 01:03:40
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,

14/12/2007 01:04:16
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karin m,

14/12/2007 01:04:22
right i signed in with the lst one you gave me ayrhsire only that isnase ot.
80

subrosa,

14/12/2007 01:04:56
This nonsense about the government calling in planning applications being called unprecedented is just poppycock. Nicol Stephen is calling the reputation of an excellent civil servant into disrepute. The Trump representatives were at the planning officers office to have procedures explained more fully. That's when the planning officer telephoned the CE of Aberdeenshire Council to ask him to clarify them and he also informed the CEO the representatives were present in his office. The CEO said he would not discuss it with them listening and requested they be removed. The planning officer asked the representatives to leave the room which they did. What's the problem here? Sleaze? Ah, oor Nicol would know all about sleaze.....
81

,

14/12/2007 01:05:21
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Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:07:28
right now im last me on old site now
83

,

14/12/2007 01:08:16
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84

Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:08:19
right so all previous monikders should be unmoderated then meths will b epleased
85

,

14/12/2007 01:08:51
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86

DouglasT,

kirkintilloch 14/12/2007 01:09:52
Not Mr Salmond's best day but whither there was anything dodgy or not, it was done for the benefit of Scotland - bringing business and jobs. The same can not be said for Ms Alexander and co whose suspected wrongdoings were done purely to derve their own personal desires.
87

pehman,

sussex 14/12/2007 01:09:57
wow, I had an e-mail about this yesterday, after I'd ceased my paperboy account.I notice am2 doesn't like it though, maybe all his alterego's won't fit
88

Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:10:11
82 did you read brian taylors comment think i have finally figured out what side of the fence he is on.
89

,

14/12/2007 01:10:23
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Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:10:36
90 mines do.
91

DouglasT,

kirkintilloch 14/12/2007 01:10:44
Not Mr Salmond's best day but whither there was anything dodgy or not, it was done for the benefit of Scotland - bringing business and jobs. The same can not be said for Ms Alexander and co whose suspected wrongdoings were done purely to derve their own personal desires.
92

Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:11:02
well my alter egos karin i am only ever karin just variant karin.
93

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14/12/2007 01:11:06
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,

14/12/2007 01:11:41
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Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:11:46
96 fakey stop it im not playing
96

,

14/12/2007 01:12:02
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,

14/12/2007 01:12:10
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Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:12:58
i thoughtm he was gay right enough im suprisedto learn he is married.
99

Karin M,

14/12/2007 01:13:37
right imoff canttake thisanymnore
100

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14/12/2007 01:13:44
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101

Beth Boyle,

Trumped in Trump State, USA 14/12/2007 01:14:45
Eeeeeeeeek could it be Trumpgate?
102

,

14/12/2007 01:15:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
103

Kipling,

@Doom Ray Call Centre 14/12/2007 01:15:16
She called him. He called her. They called them. Then the development called in.
104

,

14/12/2007 01:16:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
105

Beth Boyle,

Trumpstate U. 14/12/2007 01:16:37
Ayrshire Scot, Just because you don't like what is being said you keep saying stupid things tryng to shut every one down. It's pretty obvious and pretty childish. Get a life already.
106

Kipling,

14/12/2007 01:16:50
Hate to say this Ayrshire Scot, you also got 103 (pan bad luck) and 13 (unlucky number)
107

Beth Boyle,

Trumpstate U. 14/12/2007 01:17:50
Ayrshire Scot, Just because you don't like what is being said you keep saying stupid things tryng to shut every one down. It's pretty obvious and pretty childish. Get a life already.
108

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:20:03
Salmond kinda would make a good head of the Scottish Mafia. He has the correct greased down look and wears those dark suits all the time.
109

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:22:44
Salmond kinda would make a good head of the Scottish Mafia. He has the correct greased down look and wears those dark suits all the time.
110

,

14/12/2007 01:23:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
111

walter,

14/12/2007 01:23:13
The council in Aberdeenshire agreed in principle for Trumps organisation to build a golfing complex, it was then passed onto the planning committee to study all elements of the application and make a decision.
112

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:23:35
What is wrong with this board it post everything twice I put up?
113

Kipling,

14/12/2007 01:24:26
The administrator is creeping up behind everyone removing comments, giving no reason. You can't see the moderator, he has adopted stealth tactics, writes in red ink, lays in wait, so save each page before it gets censored. I recall nothing obscene at the beginning.
114

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:24:39
Yeah what was to be a golf course turned into cover for a big housing estate now didn't it, Walter. I smell a dead cod fish.
115

James Lawson,

Perth 14/12/2007 01:26:21
Salmond is not the sleaze type, this is not labour.
116

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:26:33
Why did they change it its horrible now?. It was much better before, Kipling.
117

,

14/12/2007 01:26:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
118

walter,

14/12/2007 01:29:19
The council in Aberdeenshire agreed in principle for Trumps organisation to build a golfing complex, it was then passed onto the planning committee to study all elements of the application and make a decision. Seven of the committee voted for the proposal as it was and 7 voted against it as it was, the chair cllr Ford had the deciding vote and voted against as it was.Trump then had a decision to make, either negotiate with the council on the areas that his application had been rejected on and reapply or appeal the decision.Trump decided he would do non of these, instead of following the due process in these matters he decided that he would threaten all involved by moving his intentions elsewhere if it was not accepted as he had planned, basically he said I do not care how your planning system works this is what I intend to do if you do not accept it I will go elsewhere.The normal process for a call in is when an application has been agreed in full or with conditions added and the government feel that the application does not adhere to the law or the conditions have not put enough emphasis on the law or are to stringent.The problem arises from the fact that no record was kept of what was said at the meeting and the next day the SNP government whom Alex Salmond (the MSP in question) is also both the party leader and the FM of the governing party that called in the application. John Swinney who called in the application is alleged to have been entertained at an exclusive trump resort just days before his decision. .
119

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne Oz 14/12/2007 01:30:59
Logical debate has fallen by the wayside today
120

,

14/12/2007 01:31:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
121

James Lawson,

Perth 14/12/2007 01:31:20
Salmond is not the sleaze type, this is not labour.
122

,

14/12/2007 01:31:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne Oz 14/12/2007 01:31:40
Logical debate has fallen by the wayside today
124

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:31:56
James we shall see if he is a greasy as the Labour types. The jury is still out on this one. Most politicians are sleeze bags.
125

,

14/12/2007 01:31:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

Spangle,

Barton Seagrave 14/12/2007 01:32:36
Comment
input
test
127

walter,

14/12/2007 01:32:42
Although Trumps behaviour and the SNP government actions may not be lawfully illegal, morally they are a different thing.Out of the main players in this Trump Salmond Mackinnon Swinney and Ford the axe has fallen on the one person who does not have a question mark hanging over his actions Ford.
128

James Lawson,

14/12/2007 01:33:27
what is wrong? my comment has posted again and the whole site has opened up?
129

Kipling,

14/12/2007 01:33:36
Beth, it's the march of Progress: no paragraphs, duplicate transmissions when refreshing, no overall view of all comments. They've possibly hired someone with a degree in javascript.
130

James Lawson,

14/12/2007 01:33:44
what is wrong? my comment has posted again and the whole site has opened up?
131

James Lawson,

Perth 14/12/2007 01:34:06
Salmond is not the sleaze type, this is not labour.
132

,

14/12/2007 01:34:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
133

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:35:58
James we shall see if he is a greasy as the Labour types. The jury is still out on this one. Most politicians are sleeze bags.
134

James Lawson,

14/12/2007 01:35:59
what is wrong? my comment has posted again and the whole site has opened up?
135

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:37:07
James we shall see if he is a greasy as the Labour types. The jury is still out on this one. Most politicians are sleeze bags.
136

walter,

14/12/2007 01:37:07
This new posting system is a pain in the a##e
137

walter,

14/12/2007 01:37:07
This new posting system is a pain in the a##e
138

Saltireblue,

The Blue Beyond 14/12/2007 01:37:52
The government was perfectly correct in stepping in and overturning the Aberdeen council's decision. If this development had been rejected and by extension if another country became the recipient of this investment, it would have been a travesty.

To say nothing about Scotland being viewed in future as, at best, The Village Idiots of foreign investment, or,at worst, totally hostile to foreign investment.

Let's get on with this development and let's get on with the promotion of Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire as a tourist destination.
139

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:38:48
They need to dump this thing it is a hopeless wreck. It's the worst.
140

Kipling,

14/12/2007 01:39:58
Hey, wow! the comment box just got larger as I was off brewing a cup.

Paragraphs!!!
141

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:43:10
They need to dump this thing it is a hopeless wreck. It's the worst.
142

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:47:24
I noticed it got bigger too. Saltireblue, you are wrong. The national government should not butt into local politics. What you could end up with is a government that dictates what happens to every thing little thing in your life. They will tell you what brand of toilet tissue to buy if you are not careful. Me thinks you are blinded by you love for the Nationals.
143

Kipling,

@DoomRay systems management 14/12/2007 01:49:14
Just a couple more fixes and it might be back to normal.
144

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:50:00
I noticed it got bigger too. Saltireblue, you are wrong. The national government should not butt into local politics. What you could end up with is a government that dictates what happens to every thing little thing in your life. They will tell you what brand of toilet tissue to buy if you are not careful. Me thinks you are blinded by you love for the Nationals.
145

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:51:51
I noticed it got bigger too. Saltireblue, you are wrong. The national government should not butt into local politics. What you could end up with is a government that dictates what happens to every thing little thing in your life. They will tell you what brand of toilet tissue to buy if you are not careful. Me thinks you are blinded by you love for the Nationals.
146

Kipling,

@DoomRay systems management 14/12/2007 01:52:34
Just a couple more fixes and it might be back to normal.
147

Kipling,

14/12/2007 01:55:19
I didn't send that down again. I refreshed.
148

alba nach,

USA 14/12/2007 01:57:15
Trevor Davies is a planning expert? Would this Trevor Davies also be the same guy elected as a Labour Councillor for Broughton Ward in Edinburgh? If so and the Scotsman concealed this from the article, I think the stench is coming from the Scotsman office, not the Parliament across the road...
149

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:57:19
I do not agree Wini. If this was of such national import the government itself should have found a site and handled it all, they should not have nipped in at the 11th hour to over ride a democratically elected body. It's very badly done the whole thing is ticky tacky. If the national government wants to bring industry and trade to Scotland they can court business people to invest in Scotland.
150

scottishrepublic07,

Aberdeen 14/12/2007 01:58:00
"No. The dinner was organised by VisitScotland to promote Scottish business. VisitScotland paid market rate for the venue."

Just goes to show what a complete non story this is.

The unionist gang of 3 will do and say anyhting to try and score points against this government. Why do they not just force a Scottish election and stand as a unionist coalition. As we've seen that labour and tories are quite willing to jump into bed together and block the graduate endowment being scraped.
151

scottishrepublic07,

aberdeen 14/12/2007 01:59:19
ps.

Scotsman sort out the comments - 10 per page is rather annoying.

Not too keen on rest of new design either. Too much white!
152

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 01:59:54
I do not agree Wini. If this was of such national import the government itself should have found a site and handled it all, they should not have nipped in at the 11th hour to over ride a democratically elected body. It's very badly done the whole thing is ticky tacky. If the national government wants to bring industry and trade to Scotland they can court business people to invest in Scotland.
153

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:01:09
The old format was nice. It is too white now.
154

walter,

14/12/2007 02:01:43
#159
but you could argue that in a project this big there was a national consideration and hence Salmon only did what was expected of him.

Are you insinuating that Salmond did nit meet Trumps reps as a MSP but as FM.
155

subrosa,

14/12/2007 02:03:19
#113/114

I come on these forums to read and make constructive comment. Your two comments above are only worthy of the gutter press so I suggest you move to the Sun or the Daily Record.
156

Ayr....,

Hootsmon 14/12/2007 02:06:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Ayrshire Scot is an idiot
157

,

14/12/2007 02:06:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
158

Richardinho,

14/12/2007 02:08:27
I'm not going to comment on whether any rules were broken since I'm not an expert on those. It all seems a bit academic in any case. Sleaze is when you give out political favors in return for cash.

The only thing the SNP is guilty of is of trying to keep alive a large investment into Scotland.

This wouldn't have been necessary if the original planning application hadn't been in the hands of a load of left-wing nit-wits who want to take Scotland back to the stone age.
159

Ayr....,

Hootsmon 14/12/2007 02:08:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Ayrshire Scot is an idiot
160

Beth Boyle,

NY 14/12/2007 02:10:19
I may have to give up the Scotsman the new changes are not working well with Opera and that is my main browser.
161

Ayr....,

Hootsmon 14/12/2007 02:11:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Ayrshire Scot is an idiot
162

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:12:18
Wini Ford broke the tie with his vote. That is how this council is set up. He was the chairman and had that power.
163

Ayr....,

Hootsmon 14/12/2007 02:13:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Ayrshire Scot is an idiot
164

Ayr....,

Hootsmon 14/12/2007 02:14:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Ayrshire Scot is an idiot
165

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:14:54
Wini,
I Don't know anything about Wendy really. Being here in American what I do know is Trump is a creep. He is from my home State of NY and I have seen in action. Anything Trump touches with benifit Trump and only Trump.
166

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Dunfermline 14/12/2007 02:16:01
Codswallop
167

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:16:34
I need to take a break my posts are horrible, sorry for all the mistakes.
168

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:18:03
Wini I have my doubts on anyone motivations when it comes to that much money.
169

subrosa,

14/12/2007 02:18:16
#91 Aye I have read his blog Karin. Tend to agree with you. Mind you, anyone who's a Dundee United supporter needs more sympathy than most :)
170

,

14/12/2007 02:19:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
171

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:22:24
Wini I have my doubts on anyone motivations when it comes to that much money.
172

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:23:27
Money comes always with strings. Its not a good idea to let the fox into the chicken coop, me thinks.
173

,

14/12/2007 02:25:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

,

14/12/2007 02:26:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
175

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:27:11
Wini My Great Grandfather came from Glasgow. I was born here. If I had money like Trump I would spend half the year here and half the year there. My problem with this is Trump is a very creepy person and all he really wants to do is play with you all. He will toy around and then move on. That is his pattern. He wants to show Scotland he knows how to build a better golf course and its you all that invented the sport. He is a bully and has bad taste to boot.
176

,

14/12/2007 02:27:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
177

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:28:46
If you are looking for a savior choose someone besides the devil, Aberdeenshire!
178

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:30:37
If you are looking for a savior choose someone besides the devil, Aberdeenshire!
179

Beth Boyle,

14/12/2007 02:31:45
This board is too stupid I gotta go. Every time I refresh to see what someone else has to say it reposts my last post. Bye Bye
180

Royster,

14/12/2007 02:57:33
What a lovely picture of Scotland's First Minister, Mrs Trump!
181

walter,

14/12/2007 03:16:42
#184
It matters.
182

Spangle,

Barton Seagrave 14/12/2007 03:30:00
You can now refresh all day and comments are not re-posted!
183

Wisnaeme,

14/12/2007 03:40:58
Post 74, proud Doonhammer.

Did 'Joke' McConnell hire the helicopter and pay for it, or did we, the taxpayers pay for it.

If the taxpayers picked up the tab then I couldn't possibly comment on politicians, particularly Labour ones on their being 'helpful' to Mr Trump. Could I? But then Mr Salmond's alleged helpfulness to Mr Trump apparently didn't incur public expenditure on being allegedly 'helpful', then? So what sort of sleaze is the 'Hootsmon' havering about? Did Mr Salmond receive any dubious donations in kind or otherwise? Erm... no. Did Mr Salmond spend any public monies in the expectation of favours? Erm... No.

A Slanderous none story then.
.
.
184

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 14/12/2007 03:49:48
"No. The dinner was organised by VisitScotland to promote Scottish business. VisitScotland paid market rate for the venue."

Us the tax-payers paid for it. When's the next one and where's the invite?

185

Royster,

14/12/2007 04:07:41
This whole affair reeks to high heaven. This golf course would bring few economic benefits to Scotland yet Salmond fawns like mad to Trump and willingly crushes local Scottish democracy to please his new friend.
186

,

14/12/2007 04:44:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
187

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 14/12/2007 05:06:53
Salmond is in deep trouble. It is time for him to come clean. Scotland deserves better.
188

roboypg4,

Vancouver 14/12/2007 05:22:35
Good on you Mr Salmond and the SNP Goverment for trying to put Scotland back on the world stage...Keep up the Good work for Scotland and Her People.
189

overton,

balmedie 14/12/2007 05:57:45
The SNP Government are accussed of sleaze because they are working in the interests of the country?
The only sleaze that exists is the relationship of the Lib Dem Nicol Stephen to the disgraced Lib Dem Councillors in Aberdeenshire who voted against the progressive and sustainable golf and housing development at Balmedie.
Clearly the Lib Dems are still working against economic development, the creation of jobs and business opportunities and it is little wonder that such a negative entity has languished in opposition since after the First World War.
Nicol Stephen's performance on Newsnight last night was pathetic and was so obviously contrived that the man should be black affronted with himself this morning. He spoke for a quite a long time made lots of slanderous accusations and yet said nothing of substance - is this not typical of the Lib Dems?
Let's hope that the SNP Government are not deflected by the Political interference of the Lib Dems, take note from the vast majority of the people of Scotland and approve Mr Trump's development without delay.
Congratulations to Aberdeenshire Councils for the good work on Wednesday the 11th of November 2007.
190

Royster,

14/12/2007 05:59:38
#209. Salmond is not elected to overide council officials on council matters such as golf courses. Since when has following due process been the domain of the 'radical fringe'? #211. How does a golf course put Scotland on the world stage?
191

Royster,

14/12/2007 06:06:21
Alex Salmond; a man who has figuratively slept with Donald Trump. I suppose he laid back and thought of Scotland.
192

roboypg4,

vancouver 14/12/2007 06:27:13
Royster. look at Saint Andrews... first class golf course...People from every part of this globe know and talk about it...I go there every year...Scotland should be open for buisness...Mr Salmond and his Goverment is right on track.
193

Royster,

14/12/2007 06:38:07
+ Lust on the Links - A Mills & Boon bodice-ripper +

The First Minister stepped elegantly out of his chauffeur-driven limousine and swept past the doorman at the entrance to the five-star hotel. It had been a hard day but he knew at last he would be with the one he loved.

"You came Donald. Thank God!" gushed the FM as he perched himself on the sofa next to a man whose unique bouffant wrap-over hair-do was glimmering in the Aberdonian moonlight. "Let's get down to business."

"You know I always get my way," said Donald, grasping the FM by the left man-boob. "It's all or nothing with me." ... to be continued


194

Xena - Warrior Princess,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 07:12:36
Sorry I do think it is a good decision BUT it also looks like MONEY made the decision.
195

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 14/12/2007 07:15:22
Can I remind those bleating about the Scottish Government "overriding democratically elected councillors" that the proposal was voted 7-7 in one committee (lost on the chairman's casting vote), and was PASSED by the planning committee. So if anything is true then it was the committee chairman who "overrided democracy".

Not that I am in favour of Trumps plan though- I've been to Trump Towers, so much gold, tackiest place outside of Las Vegas. This "scandal" is manufactured, but the SNP haven't done themselves any favours by calling it in so soon (and falling for Trump's threats to move the development elsewhere)


196

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/12/2007 07:39:30
Annabel Goldie says, "If this application fails, and Scotland loses this billion pound investment, the Scottish Government will only have itself to blame."

So why does she not just shut up and help with the procedure instead of trying to bring it down?
197

JR Ewing,

Aberdeen 14/12/2007 07:57:41
Nicol Stephen scraped through at the last election and since then has been acting like a spoilt brat.

We all know about his dodgy dealings over the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route.

198

Paul Voltaire,

14/12/2007 07:57:47
It was rather refreshing to see the smug smile gone from Wee Alex's face yesterday when quizzed in the parliament.
Politicians?
Who's like them?
199

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

14/12/2007 08:03:09
Well well you lot of SNP supporters what do you make of this, the Fat Controller fun out to be just as bent as the rest of them at Hollyrood?
Do away with the lot of them and bring back Westminster rule!!
200

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

14/12/2007 08:07:21
217# Royster for first minister, well done mate i love it.
201

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 08:07:52
The pure hatred in Nichol Stephens face at FMQ was not an edifying sight.
202

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 14/12/2007 08:08:47
Being criticized by Stephen Nicol (or is it Nicol Stephen ;-) ) is the equivalent of being savaged by a dead sheep.

A dead shhep with the whiff of sleaze about IT (as has been said, Aberdeen Bypass).
203

McMillar,

Fife 14/12/2007 08:10:49
Why oh why are the ‘opposition’ parties wasting time on this. Attacking Salmond for helping to attract this inward investment and doing nothing wrong…Is there really nothing better on their minds. Topic came up on Politics show last night and was squashed by Sturgeon. Mind you she was on there with some mumbling numpties. Lib Dems are dieing a slow death under Stephens and Labour are afraid to put Wendy on Point. That leaves the handbag…. No wonder Salmond has a grin on his face. The longer they drag this out, the better he looks as the only one taking the lead.
204

McMillar,

Fife 14/12/2007 08:17:11
Also caught a bit of Question Time last night with good performance by Charles Kennedy. He is much better than any of the current MSP offerings…just needs to get a decent haircut.
205

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 14/12/2007 08:21:21
I thought when "sleaze" was banded about there should be some element of persOnal gain from it, you know cash for questions, free hospitality in Paris hotels, trying to shift the blame to your daughter, using the "Sword of Mistruth" to try and gag the press, Ms Goldie should reaLly keep her gob shut, her party is, by far, the masters of "sleaze". At least Labour in Scotland know when to shut up.

Can anyone tell me what personal gain the FM got from this? All administrations have always fallen over ourslves when large inward investment is offered, the SNP are acting in a way which is no different to past one. Lets examine the wasted milions given to Motorola or Chungwa to build factors that were closed soon after opening or not even opened!

206

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 14/12/2007 08:33:14
Ooh, shiny new website.

Obviously winding up the SNP crowd is bringing in the advertising revenue.

I love Annabelle Goldie's line "Astonishingly, as First Minister, he was not even-handed, he was cack-handed. Either this is ignorance or arrogance, and ignorance is not a condition with which I associate the First Minister."

And they say there's a writer's strike!
207

connaughtboy,

14/12/2007 08:41:52
This new website is a complete nightmare
208

Linda,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 08:42:49
There is not one iota of evidence of any sleaze or scandal here and such inappropriate talk only brings the body politic into disrepute.

To me it seems that government only got incompetent Aberdeen-shire Council out of hole.

I don't like what I read about Trump and have no strong views on the development but there is no hint of sleaze or scandal by the Scottish Government or by the first Minister.
209

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 14/12/2007 08:46:05
Nick, this is supposed to be a debating area, not for "winding up" anyone. Grow up.
210

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 08:57:22
Although I am a supporter of the SNP and of the government I think this is their first big mistake. £1 Billion is the price of the development, but what will this development actually cost the SNP in political capital? To the SNP leadership - concentrate on making the trains run faster between Scottish cities (so that Albanian railways don't overtake us), building up support for independence, and stop getting up to your necks in it with the likes of Trump (so that we don't beat Albania to near the top of the Transparency International league of shame). Stop comparing us with Ireland - the country of Charles Haughey - and go back to the Scandinavian analogies that are more relevant. If a public enquiry doesn't happen then the SNP government might hang themselves on this. In a couple of weeks in which the Labour Party in Scotland were tottering around in a sea of sewage of their own making (to my immense satisfaction), the government has scored its first own goal by meddling and interfering in an unseemly way. National and strategic importance - don't make me laugh. Can the SNP government not understand that it was exactly a lack of humility, and spin after the fact that turned voters off the last lot? Someone commented that McKinnon was in office with the last lot - that only makes it worse. As for the removal of Martin Ford, what a bunch of cowards, the lot of them. Every one of those councillors that voted for his removal, or abstained, should resign in shame. The government have said nothing about this blatant attempt to assassinate the character of this man - perhaps turning out to be the most disgusting aspect of all of this.
211

Arrow,

edinburgh 14/12/2007 08:57:31
cleary this is not worthy of much attention in the Herald but i note that there is no mention of the Midlothian Labour Party chairman being sacked from his day job as a tradesman for Midlothian Council for working on his own house in Council time, appealling the sacking and the committee of labour councillors re-instating him but not declaring an interest. the point is that they all had been "appointed" by this man and possibly as he may have worked on their homes in Council time and using Council materials they had to support him.
if anyone was to know about sleaze its the Labour party. they are up to their necks in it and we are seeing the last rattle of the most corrupt bunch of politicians north of Newcastle.
212

Stephen101,

Antrim or bust 14/12/2007 09:02:30
Labour and the Lib Dems are turning this project into a sleaze, corruption, abuse of power argument.

Scotland cannot afford this, and allied to the significant and offensive anti Trump campaign the only sensible thing is for the Scottish Government to back out and encourage Trump to take his project to Northern Ireland.

There Trump will find a much better site, more impressive setting, a welcome from politicians and locals alike.

So before the politicians turn this into Scotland's shame just forget it and let Trump move on.




213

The central scrutinizer,

scotland 14/12/2007 09:10:22
OOh the scandal of it all,it's so embarrassing for Scotland,all the sleaze,lies and and deception.They should all be strung up from high tree and i mean the labour party.
Before you know it Mr Trump will be gone and then people will be saying we should have done that and we should have done this.
When will the Scottish people stop acting like a bunch of squabbling children because they're not getting their "finger in the pie"?
214

Stephen101,

Links from postings 14/12/2007 09:11:33
Scotsman I appeal to you that you will pay attention to our petition. 99% of the posters on this forum have signed up in the hope that you will NOT allow links to be incorporated in postings.

The only contributor who did NOT sign was AM2.

This is to encourage AM2 to say something for himself rather than waving the flag of some obtuse half backed set of statistics.

Like a drunk who is coming off the bevvy, he will suffer withdrawal symptoms, but he will come through it and end up a better man because of it.

And as for the rest of us, we will just be F***ing grateful.


215

Number 6,

Germany 14/12/2007 09:13:39
Let's have a public enquirey. Let's go back to Mcconnel's time on this project and see if there is
anything LABOUR object to there. How are we doing on the investigation into LABOUR CORRUPTION AND SLEAZE by the way?
216

Doh,

14/12/2007 09:19:14


New site, am I still being censored?
217

Nikostratos,

14/12/2007 09:21:17
'independent inquiry' is the best way forward .If there has been no bending of the rules for Mr Trump. Then an inquiry will quickly prove the truth or otherwise. Transparency is not to feared by our politicians only in the abode of the guilty.


And with the other parties in a Majority this will be a straight forward process of investigation.
Of course the snp Drones with will attempt to deflect any Criticism as can be seen by their post.
The Scotsman will not be bullied or browbeaten by the snp 'MOB'.

with their shiny new web site a new dawn beckons for the pro Union press



P.S Scotsman do not pay any attention to him at #101
links provide useful information and evidence to confirm or deny any claims posters make
This is a despicable attempt to censor AM2 mainly due to the fact he more often than not gets the better of the nationalist drone's and their spurious assertion's
218

Proud2Be,

Links from postings 14/12/2007 09:28:28
Scotsman I appeal to you that you will pay attention to our petition. 99% of the posters on this forum have signed up in the hope that you will NOT allow links to be incorporated in postings.

The only contributor who did NOT sign was AM2.

This is to encourage AM2 to say something for himself rather than waving the flag of some obtuse half backed set of statistics.

Like a drunk who is coming off the bevvy, he will suffer withdrawal symptoms, but he will come through it and end up a better man because of it.

And as for the rest of us, we will just be F***ing grateful


I CONCUR!! AM2's savage cut and paste is almost as poor as Scotsman Journalism!! Turn off the links!!
219

Carol-Ann Duffy,

Bruntsfield Links where my kids putt for free 14/12/2007 09:29:05
How do these SNP apologist trolls sleep at night? Answer: they don’t!

They must have no lives to speak of, that they have to sit up into the wee smal’ hours - night after night - bashing away trite “comment” and personal invective, with blinkers to the FURORE’s and his courteous storm troopers’ blatantly ill-conceived “sook ups” to those waving their bulging wallets around their constituencies, looking for “wee favours”!

“Smart Alec” must indeed be smarting, with he and Swinney caught with their balls in the long grass – resorting to bunker mentality when exposed for being too clever by the likes of Annabel Goldie, Patrick Harvie and Nichol Stephen!

“Send three and four pence we’re going to a dance!” The word goes out to troops on the ground from the eagle’s nest in Bute House!

Is there some sort of pissing-contest that goes on amongst these caddies, to see who can spin the daftest yarn first?

Do they all have a wee handbook, giving theme tips on pithy witticisms – “MEIN BAMFF” perhaps?

Narrow nationalism, personal nastiness and blinkered ignorance posing as “comment” – should make us all worried. Always going for the player – not the ball!
My heart sinks when I read newspapers on-line and I see hundreds of “comments” – who have usually nothing more to say than repeat the drooling bile from their cronies.

Anyone with remotely opposing views is berated – tarred and feathered with a “Unionist” brush!
“Nationalism” is being redefined in Scotland – intolerant, hate-fuelled, bigoted, craven and exclusive.

Scotland is in danger of sleep walking towards abyss where: misogyny; questioning a women’s right to chose; questioning measures to address homophobic bullying; openly buying political influence on issues from Golf courses to airbrushing re-regulation of buses from manifestos, is happening - here and now!

Pride in one’s country and the Saltire have been hijacked, in much the same way that the British National Party have done with the Union
220

mr chips,

14/12/2007 09:33:44
Salmond will come through Nicol Stephens slanderous sleaze allegations smelling of roses.
Stephens will be left looking like the silly little
prat that we all know he is.
The only sleaze he smells is coming from his ,the tory,s and the labour party benches, the stench must be awful for alex and his team.
221

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA ON THE INDEPENDENCE TRAIN. 14/12/2007 09:33:48
Great new forum site.

What a pity you cannot chose stories that have legs.

It is so obvious that every effort is being made to keep Liebours sleazy lying baw bags out of the headlines in the hope we will forget what a bunch of Unionist hookers they are.


What a pity also that AM2 seems unhappy with this new forum, he and his sad gang of spineless Unionist sycophants are the engine that drives independence.













ALBA GU BRATH.
222

Conan the Librarian™,

14/12/2007 09:34:58
249
AM2
Seems a bit better than last night?
Frenzied ponytail activity all night.
223

mr chips,

14/12/2007 09:42:04
248 Carol-Ann Duffy.
Terrible post hen, is it not a wee bit early for drunken drivel.
224

Calum10,

14/12/2007 09:44:12
There is no evidence of wrong doing by SNP ministers nor government civil servants. None whatsoever.

What evidence there is of a campaign of inuendo and smear by the Hootsmon, the Glasgow Herald and BBC Scotland.

At the moment political journalists in Scotland are firmly stuck in the Unionist mire.
225

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 14/12/2007 09:48:14
#236 You might want to ask Santa for a sense of humour - you seem to have lost yours.

And are you seriously going to arge that the stories in the Scotsman are deliberately written in a ways that riles up the SNP supporters?

Anyway, I have no wish to grow up - from what I see it makes you dull.
226

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 09:48:22
254. How does that work then?

Who is it demanding all opponents to get out of Scotland now? It's the SNP torch-and-pitchfork mob.

Who is it calling all opponents 'collaborators'? It's the SNP torch-and-pitchfork mob.

Who is it making ridiculous and childish claims of Scotland being a "subjugated colony"? It's the SNP torch-and-pitchfork mob.

Who is spraying anti-English and anti-UK graffiti on Scottish streets? It's the SNP torch-and-pitchfork mob.

Who is it making viciously racist remarks about anyone who isn't Scottish? It's the SNP torch-and-pitchfork mob.

Who is it that is driving a wedge between friends, families and communities with their lies and propaganda? Why, it's the SNP mob again!
227

,

14/12/2007 09:48:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
228

Melanthios,

14/12/2007 09:49:03
I do believe I've got my original name back.
229

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 14/12/2007 09:49:48
#256 Maybe if the SNP politicians were nice to the journalists they would get better stories.

And journos love freebies.

I suggest Nicola Sturgeon bakes some cakes and invites them all round for tea.
230

Melanthios,

14/12/2007 09:50:06
Hello Ayrshire. I couldn't sign in with the hpb.
231

,

14/12/2007 09:52:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
232

,

14/12/2007 09:53:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
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233

Blue Tooner,

Aberdeenshire 14/12/2007 09:54:50
So the two SNP councilors who voted with Ford against Trump's proposal voted Ford off the planning committee for making a decision they agreed with?? I'm confused here. And another thing, the council have changed the rules so that big issues are dealt with by full council instead of smaller committees. Fair enough, but who will decide which "medium sized" proposals should be handled at committee level and which should be handled at full council level? A committee, or is this an important issue that must be discussed by full council?? "There's a hole in my bucket. . . ."
234

,

14/12/2007 09:55:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
235

Lesley Hinds,

14/12/2007 09:55:57


So back to the topic.

This Trump affair does stink because it says big busines, bad business can throw its weight around and get special treatment by politicians and civil servants alike.

I know it is now also a political football and I sort of forgive oppossiton leaders for tryign to chastise the arrogance of the government.

Perhaps had the government not shown such keeness to rubberstamp this application they would be treated more fairly. Trump has them easting out of his hand.
That I find sickening.


The special treatment afforded to Trump has thrown our planning procedures into disrepute. I heard that there
is some application at Aviemore that now wants the same preferrment.

Although you might support particular developments and economic developments in general remember Trump was also objecting to windmills within sight of his own plan.

It looks like one rule for the rich and another for the poor.

236

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 09:57:16
242. Of course the SNP mob don't want links allowed on this site, as that is the simplest and easiest way to destroy their pathetic and childish claims.

It's all academic anyway as independence is as likely and as popular now as it was 25 years ago.

Even The Great Combover himself has delayed it another ten years in the forlorn hope that people will then be stupid enough to believe his baseless claims, lies and spin that Scotland would be better off as yet another anonymous small nation of the world instead of part of one of the world's leading powers.
237

blair,

North Berwick 14/12/2007 09:58:04
I always understood that it was the duty of a chairman to use his casting vote for the status quo in the event of a tied vote.
238

blair,

North Berwick 14/12/2007 09:58:19
I always understood that it was the duty of a chairman to use his casting vote for the status quo in the event of a tied vote.
239

Ayrshire S?ot™,

14/12/2007 09:59:12
I have to admit, the SNP are ruined now. Alex Salmond has had a momentary lapse of concentration and now independence has been put back a generation.
240

World View,

14/12/2007 10:00:25
#257

Are we talking about links to things like this, which clearly show how the majority of Scots (and English) favour independence for Scotland:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=428266&in_page_id=1770


We're not allowed to use them now? Ok, you can copy and paste.



#259

Hey, English Ventiloquist. Hi!
You know, you're probably the biggest wedge-driver I've ever came across. Your attitude towards the whole debate is appalling. The fact that you don't acknowledge Scotland's indisputably legitimate claim to independence is a measure of sheer arrogance and ignorance that is obviously the source of a great deal of hate in you. AM2 disagrees fervently with independence, but he has never argued that it is an invalid claim (in fact, he has openly acknowledged that it is a valid claim). You, however, seem to think that Scotland should not be allowed to be independent simply because you don't want it to. Your pathetic.
241

World View,

14/12/2007 10:00:48
Wow, this forum design is awful!
242

BIG EYE,

Paisley 14/12/2007 10:01:04
The real scandal is the bahaviour of Nicol Stephen, he should put up or shut up!. Does he have any evidence that the chief planner committed any breach of conduct. If so let's hear it in full.

Does he have a shred of evidence that Alex Salmond has committed any offence. If so let's hear what it is.

His best line so far is that there appears to be something sleazy about this.Exactly what is sleazy in a constituency MSP carrying out his responsibliites we are entitled to ask?

Alex Salmond met representatives of both the for and against side of this application. Indeed as he met the opposition in advance it could be argued he had shown them more favour than Trump.
If this is the best the opposition can do then they had better prepare for a long time in that role
243

A. Puschkin,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 10:02:16
The Comment below is the most sensible and practical...

....campaigners against the development at the Menie Estate, near Balmedie, called for a public inquiry into the application to restore national confidence.
244

Publius,

London 14/12/2007 10:04:46
Brilliant new website. Don't mind whether people post links or not.
The SNP leadership have got it wrong on this one. I'm not a green fanatic and I have no objection to golf courses as such. But this proposal stinks. Perhaps any proposal from Trump would stink...if Trump is the answer, ther's something wrong with the question. The only way for the exec to recover its reputation is to throw the proposal out.
245

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 14/12/2007 10:08:16
#279 Sadly the vey fact that it is sensible and practical rules it out.

See all of the above as evidence.
246

,

14/12/2007 10:13:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
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247

Carol-Ann Duffy,

Teed off! 14/12/2007 10:15:41
255: Truth is indeed stranger than Fiction!


"Mr Chips to pipe in the New Year"
Fiona McCartney: Macclesfield Express
30/12/2003


A REAL life Mr Chips who once guarded Nazi villain Rudolf Hess will be entertaining the troops at Hope Green House this New Year's Eve.

For larger than life former school master and war veteran Ian Bailey, 90, who kept watch on Hitler's number two during his mystery crash landing in Scotland, has more than a few tricks up his sleeve.

When he's not playing the bagpipes to an adoring audience at the Adlington care home, the Oxford educated officer and gentleman will be enchanting them with his tales from the Second World War.

And perhaps the most fascinating is the night when the Scotsman guarded Hess after his famous crash landing in Glasgow in 1941, although he didn't know it was the Nazi until the day later..."

Well, you'll have had yer tee Mr Chips, you know now...



248

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 10:25:20
This is a complete non-story. I know work with planning law on a daily basis and can categorically say that Alex Salmond has done nothing wrong, nor has Jim MacKinnon or John Swinney. This is simply a desperate attempt by the unionist alliance to blacken the SNP...but as usual, their petty, small-minded and parocial rantings only undermine Scotland and her image on the world stage.

Alex Salmond had every right to meet with the Trump Org as the local MSP (and it made every sense to use his ministerial car, otherwise it'd have been twice the expenses claim - which he'd have been criticised for), John Swinney had every right to call-in the application (and attend the VISIT SCOTLAND event that just happened to be held in a Trump resort - no connection fols, it was Visit Scotland, not Trump that ran the event)...there is no sleaze here at all...and the only ones who seem to beleive this story are the unionist politicians who are desperately trying to do-down the SNP, do-down Scotland and divert interest away from Wendy Alexander's ILLEGAL donations...

To The Scotsman team...stop chasing poorly research, fake news stories and focus on the real corruption in Scottish politics: Labour...
249

wkd,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 10:28:00
Seems a bit much to portray Trevor Davies as a 'planning expert'. He's a Labour Councillor which hardly makes him an independent authority.
250

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 10:28:39
286#
Blind loyalty just makes fools of all of us. As I said at 238, it is not only Unionists who think that this stinks.
251

Conan the Librarian™,

14/12/2007 10:29:33
285
AM2
Surreal.
I refreshed and had to sign on again.
252

Duncan in Edinburgh /,

14/12/2007 10:32:14
#286 "do-down Scotland and divert interest away from Wendy Alexander's ILLEGAL donations..."

It's you Nats who have got things out of proportion - a £995 donation is seriously dwarfed by a billion pound contract for a project in the area that Alex Salmond just happens to be the MSP for - and you honestly don't think this stinks?

Or that Salmond meets Trump's people and the next day the Scottish Executive calls in the application?

No - it doesn't stink - it downright reeks of nepotism and self-interest.
253

Wriggler, Editor,

14/12/2007 10:39:22
New Scotsman Website = Seasonal.

Its like the office Christmas party. The same ugly fat birds that make your life a misery, coming out with complete garbage, yet wrapped up in a new dress.

A complete lack of substance is the problem.

254

Stephen faeCraiglockhart,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 10:44:33
There would be a case for ruling out the more common offensive words - say "hypocrite" "liar" etc from these posts - parliamentary language style. It would reduce the tendency to "flame wars".
255

Stephen faeCraiglockhart,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 10:44:46
There would be a case for ruling out the more common offensive words - say "hypocrite" "liar" etc from these posts - parliamentary language style. It would reduce the tendency to "flame wars".
256

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/12/2007 10:45:06
#233 Goldie's "cack-handed" comment is probably the most honest opinion we have had from the opposition.

This is not an issue of sleaze but goddamn awful timing by the SNP. One wonders why the FM left it so late in the day to meet Trump's people? And the timing of the decision and lack of communication is incredible.
257

Andrew Ireland,

Dublin 14/12/2007 10:45:16
#285 AM2

Not still peddling the opinion pollsters have decided so we can't let the people vote on it nonsense?

The website redesign is crap by the way.

And its the Government's job to encourage people to invest billions in Scotland. Agree to an enquiry though.

258

,

14/12/2007 11:12:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
259

Wriggler, Editor,

14/12/2007 11:16:13
AM2 has a point - it could as easily be a malicious link as a reasonable one. You cant tell if its the daily mail or the daily male...so to speak.
260

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 11:18:15
276. SNP Switzerland Branch - I have never said it is not Scotland's right. All I have ever said is that it is unpopular with the vast majority as it has always been.

Got that? Has it sunk in? Read it again, just in case.
261

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 14/12/2007 11:18:46
We can only hope that the involvement of the police will see this scandal brought to a speedy conclusion.
262

Allan(handofgod137),

14/12/2007 11:21:36
Yet more leftist corruption.
263

Stephen101,

the new improved Scotsman web site, let us help th 14/12/2007 11:22:03
Nice web site, but obviously the Scotsman team haven't volume tested it, as you can see from unavailable screens and difficulty in opening up articles.

Why don't we help them?

10am Monday, we all prepare a long posting and in AM2's case, lots of links and a tirade against those who have anything approaching a sense of humour.

At 10am precisely we all press submit. Check your PC clock time beforehand. If not accepted, keep pressing submit.

Let's see how it performs? It is cheaper than hiring in lots of people to complete the testing they should have done, and we know Johnston Press like saving the the pennies.

However if they have a leading article about Wendy Alexander being a law breaker and demanding her incarceration in a high security prison, then please ignore the above.


264

Lesley Hinds,

14/12/2007 11:23:04
#269

If those 2 SNP councillors that voted against Trump in committee then voted to sack Martin Ford - they should hang their heads in shame.

They should at the very least resign from the planning committee themselves.

Trump is making a mockery of us.
265

,

14/12/2007 11:24:16
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266

,

14/12/2007 11:28:26
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267

Willie S,

Ex Edinburgh 14/12/2007 11:29:20
You cant have it both ways my nationalist friends. When the SNP call in a planning application, and enjoy hospitality provided by the applicant, then go on to do all they can to push it through it is fishy. No doubt there was no malice intended, but it is the sort of difficulties Governments and political parties walk into all the time.

It is no good inisting that St.Alex would never do anythhing wrong, when in the same circumstances, were at a Labour administration you'd be calling foul. Wendy Alexander broke the law (it seems) over a small donation to fund internal meetings for the Labour Party. No public funds were involved. Great hoots of protest from the nationalists.

SNP Government enjoys drinkies and meals from a rich businessman , then proceeds to use public employees and resources to back his application? No problem, they are SNP, so anything they do has approval from God!
268

,

14/12/2007 11:31:38
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269

Stephen101,

That fat burd 14/12/2007 11:31:46
#294 Wriggler.

Dammit does she work with you as well? She must be moonlighting with us here.

Yes it is so like the Scotsman. You know you shouldn't read it but you do. The next day you feel AWFUL. You waken up and think 'Can I face my work collegues because they now know that I have been there?'

The shame of it. And that fat ugly burd used to be such a classy North Bridge lady.







270

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 11:37:04
248 Carol Ann Duffy...[if it be her!!!]

It is certainly remarkable the difference between the public discourse of Scotland and what people say under cover of anonymity on this website.
271

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 13:57:32
325 Hiya Fakey, how goes it? :-)

322 Afternoon, AM2, this is better, no? Pity the links don't work, your once mighty database is compromised?
272

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 13:59:43
264 Meths

will see if can do another one later today. Will hpb you
273

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:04:18
334 AM2, yep, you are right. You can't even link to a comment on here, and your once omnipotent database will rely on people getting tiny url and pasting. We don't all have your advanced copy/paste skills :-)
274

banthebomb,

14/12/2007 14:13:06
#319

Of the six coucillors who supported Ford in the initial 7-7 tie 2 voted against him , 2 abstained and 2 supported him.

'Trump is making a mockery of us' I do not think so , it seems that we( AC et al) are the authors of this particular feat.
275

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:15:02
Why did Nicol Stephen's nose not detect anything wiffy about Labour's illegal donations?
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:18:22
338 Nope. Or do you mean if we paste it into another browser?
277

banthebomb,

14/12/2007 14:20:06
#337

Because it is likely that he may have something rattling around in his wardrobe ?

Irrespective of which party is concerned it is , in my opinion, morally corrupt to to intentionally ask for donations below the £ 1000 threshold. By default it must mean that there is something to hide.
What is wrong with a full declaration ?
278

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:25:26
341 - Nope, pasted the link, just goes to this thread with 88 comments (at top) but doesn't go to yours directly
279

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:26:52
342 BtB : indeed, the whole £995 thing looks dishonest from the start
280

,

14/12/2007 14:33:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
281

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:35:42
346 Oh well, maybe the omnipotent database will be up to full steam when the site is fully running.

347 - Fakey, no need to capitalise Hoos Poos. That wasn't the correct use of it either. Poos to Yous
282

BMeister,

14/12/2007 14:35:43
Methalions
I think AM2 is correct that it was a good feature to have direct links and that your workaround is more hassle.

But look at it from his point of view, the reason it's more hassle is not particularly for the reader of the link, but for the creator. AM2 loves posts with 6 or more links and while it only takes the reader 2 seconds to copy and paste the link and get to it it takes far longer to create a tinyurl link (possibly with a preview) and then copy and paste this into his post.

This site does smack of the business dept. seeing no need to pay for testing, the purchaser pushing it through because he's tols the high heid-yins it'll be out there by the end of this week, and everyone ignoring the developers telling them it's not ready.
283

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/12/2007 14:35:58
#336 Who were the two councillors who voted with Mr Ford agaisnt the devlopment and then voted for his removal?
284

,

14/12/2007 14:37:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
285

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:39:50
352 Betamax.Scotsman I think :-)
286

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 14:42:14
So is Sean 'I hate the English but I'll take a knighthood and I love Scotland but I'll live in the Bahama's' Connery actually on the electoral roll in Scotland?

That ex-pat's £30,000 donation slightly overshadow's this £1,990 donation from another ex-pat, doesn't it!

And has Brian Souter's £500,000 donation to the SNP in March 2007 got anything to do with the SNP, just weeks later, dropping its pledge to re-regulate bus services in Scotland?

287

,

14/12/2007 14:43:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
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288

 Meths,

14/12/2007 14:45:33
Meths
289

,

14/12/2007 14:46:55
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290

 Meths,

14/12/2007 14:49:11
358 Alright? Check hpb.
291

,

14/12/2007 14:49:48
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292

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:52:06
361 I think he works in the basement. He will have to go upstairs (if he is allowed) and ask them
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:54:34
He he - just tried that. They have pre-censorship. N-i-p is banned.
294

BMeister,

14/12/2007 14:54:59
352 AM2
and the sad thing is, it'll work for them because we'll use it, gripe about it, and as long as they don't take too long to fix it, we'll keep on using it.
Testing done at everyone's favourite price.
295

,

14/12/2007 14:55:44
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296

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 14:57:34
Methalions, have done.

297

BMeister,

14/12/2007 14:58:08
so you can't have n.i.p or d.u.n.t but you can have walk which is also only one letter away from rudeness.
Bizarre rules.
298

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:03:08
tit
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:04:14
nippy tit
300

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:04:40
371 - the plural of tit is de-barred. how odd
301

Sedov,

Scotland 14/12/2007 15:05:04
Slimy Salmond is up to his old tricks again, he needs careful watching even from his own party. Look out for more of his antics over the next few years of power - all wrapped up in a thin veil of innocent denials and "know it all" smirks. Of course, he has learned from the leaders of the other parties, which is why the SNP are no different from the rest.
302

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:05:37
dick
303

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:05:56
371 and 375 how dare you. What happens if I report my own posts?

Male hens and people with a shortened form of William are going to be difficult stories to comment on.
304

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA ON THE FREEDOM EXPRESS :o) 14/12/2007 15:09:01
#262 AM2 SAID. "Actually, most people recoil from the degree of hate which you exhibit."


You wish. See how easily you bite, you just cannot let go, strut strut strut, trumpet trumpet trumpet, bang bang bang on your little unionist drum. Your posturing and raking and patronising has made you the most reviled and ridiculed troll on these forums, both in The Herald and on here. Actually people do recoil from the muck raking and racist hatred you love to stir up and they tell you so day in day out and still you go on and on, round and round you spin, that is why like a doughnut centre you are nothing.
Please do not flatter your self by imagining that I would waste emotion on hatred of you. I detest what you are and what spawned you, which is a bitter and twisted spineless cringing unionist, who talks down Scots and Scotland and Norway and Norwegians, and Iceland and Icelander's, and Ireland and the Irish and any other country that is a shining example to independence and self government. You are nothing but a fanatical spinning sad sack.

ALBA GU BRATH.
305

,

14/12/2007 15:13:03
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306

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:15:39
con
307

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:17:59
382 All very odd. Having a list of pre-barred words?
308

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:19:13
com cim cem cam
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:19:42
389 That is a pub in Kilmarnock
310

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:20:15
380 feck
311

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:21:22
arsebiscuits
312

,

14/12/2007 15:21:32
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313

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:23:45
391 nold thingmies - balls ?
314

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:24:07
385 deport you? how odd. Where to? Somewhere sunny?
315

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/12/2007 15:25:26
#387 AM2 - the more I read from Hen Broon the more convinced I am that he is a unionist posing as Nat to try and discredit moderate Nats.

There couldn't be any other explanation for his lunatic ravings - could there?
316

HEN BROON 5,

14/12/2007 15:25:27
#387. AM2.... Methinks he doth protest to much. You know how much stick you get on here, you know how many times you have been exposed and debunked and then done a runner when someone fillets you and your sad arguments. Not only do you know that but so does every user on this site and the Herald site. You are a shape shifting fanatic, ducking and diving and spinning and lying. If, and I doubt this very much, but if you share your sad life with any one they will be able to confirm how much of your life you waste with this fanaticism. Anyway I'm of now as I must watch, "Dog The Bounty Hunter,"...have a great shift now, missing you already.

ALBA GU BRATH.
317

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/12/2007 15:26:07
s**ee
318

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:26:34
oh good, balls is ok, the sports writers will be relieved.

Surely somebody at the Polytechnic University College of Glen Affric can get a grant to study what the list of banned words reveals about it's writer's psychology.
319

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/12/2007 15:26:46
fekk
320

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:27:12
385. Could be worse. When i was at uni, the SWP people (Amer Anwar among them) used to get very heated in debate and declare, sadly, that when the revolution came I would be shot,as my socialism wasn't revolutionary enough or something. They were nice about it though.
321

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/12/2007 15:27:56
#402 I've had the same from the SWP too!!
322

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:29:34
403 :-) Every second word with them was "right". So, right, your socialism, right, is revisionist, right, so, right, when we take over, right, you're, right, gonna get shot, right
323

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:32:57
404 How ironic coming from people so far to the left
324

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:34:46
406 They hated the Revolutionary Communists more than anyone else. Because, rght, they're not, right, revolutionary, right, or communist, right.
325

Transparent?,

Scotland 14/12/2007 15:34:48
#251, Mr Chips. Fried, Stone or Gambling?
326

Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 14/12/2007 15:34:51
Why has this major story been moved away from the headlines? I fear more nationalist interference in the freedom of the press.

Now that the police are involved in the investigation of this scandal, we can only hope that things are resolved speedily.
327

Gap,

Aberdeen 14/12/2007 15:35:33
Tonights editorial comment from the Aberdeen Evening Express - in reference to a page 2 article "First Minister hits back at Stephen after 'sleaze' claim"

"End this tiresome heckling"

First Minister Alex Salmond is spot on in his assessment of yesterday's sleaze row as a descent into gutter politics.

It is tiresome that Nicol Stephen is hijacking attempts to get the Trump bid back on course to score cheap political points.

As a North-east MSP we expect him to represent the interests of his constituents, not sling mud at the expense of efforts to rescue the Menie proposals.

Mr Stephen is hardly the one to indulge in such heckling. People in the North-east still haven't forgiven the way he presided over the bypass farce.

Mistakes have been made, but work is now going on at the highest levels to ensure the Trump proposal is feasible. We expect our MSP's to support that.
328

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:35:51
407 AM2 - I joined QMU one year too for political reasons! But did debates at GUU so reverted. The diary was nicer anyway.
329

World View,

14/12/2007 15:36:08
#285

Do you mean links to polls like the most recent yougov poll which puts current voting intentions at

Constituency vote

SNP: 40% (+7)
Lab: 29% (-3)
Lib Dem: 13% (-3)
Con: 12% (-5)
Other: 6%

Regional vote:

SNP: 34% (+3)
Lab: 26% (-3)
Con: 13% (-1)
Lib Dem: 13% (+2)
Green: 9% (+5)
SSP: 3% (+2)
Sol: 1%
Oth: 2%

which obviously shows a massive surge in support for independence?

Are these the sort of links we need to link to for the cross-references and empirical hoo hah you need for your blundering argument?

Aside from that, I couldn't agree with you more about the tragic design of this forum, which I would extend to the whole website. Their last website seemed much more modern. This one is like a website concocted by amateurs. I wonder if they're cutting costs because they are struggling to sell their anti-Scottish newspaper. It's a funny marketing ploy, that one, to sell a newspaper in a country which the newspaper hates.
330

BMeister,

14/12/2007 15:37:48
My son accidentally hit me on the knee with a rubber mallet when we were camping this alleged summer. It was very painful. Not much of a filleting tool though.
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 15:40:12
414 Could pan someone n with a rubber mallet, but would probably take a long time
332

McMillar,

Fife 14/12/2007 15:46:35
Salmond has done a great job here and is doing what he should as FM. Good leadership and well up for it. Nicol Stephen on the other hand is just starting to irritate everyone. If there was any doubt previously it has now been removed. Lame duck and ankle biting to get noticed. He should be 100% behind this opportunity for NE development and using it to demonstrate that the Lib Dems can still collaborate on the big issues. It has been said many times already – Salmond must be laughing at the lack of any credible opposition right now. Dunno if this is workable but I would love to see Charles Kennedy in there.
333

Jambo 25,

West Lothian 14/12/2007 15:47:32
I really cannot see what the fuss is here. Are the Lib Dems and Tories saying that members of the government have acted improperly for personal gain? Are they saying that they have acted improperly for party gain? If not, what are they saying? I would like to see them being specific so that messrs. Salmond, Swinney and McKinnon can put the affair in the hands of their lawyers.
Are the Lib Dems saying that the initial action by Martin Ford was correct? If so what will the Lib Dem leadership do to the Aberdeenshire, Lib Dem councillors who actually moved against Ford or sat on their hands, thus hanging him out to dry? Are the Lib Dems in favour of,or against Trump's billion pound investment? Will they tell the electors of Aberdeenshire and the wider North East who, apparently, are 80%, or more, in favour.
Why are the Lib Dems and Tories so hot on this non story yet remarkably quiet on the real scandal of dodgy donors? It isn't that their lords and masters, down south, are pushing for a united, anti-SNP front. I can see what the Lib Dems will get out of this as they have been Labour's 'prison bitch' for years now. I cannot, for the life of me, see what the Tories get out of it.
Incidentally, my son is a private developing planner who acts in commercial developments as big, or bigger, than this one. He sees no story in this whatsoever.
BTW, why was a labour politician cited as an independent planning expert? (yes, I do mean Trevor Davies)
334

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14/12/2007 15:50:43
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Nikostratos,

14/12/2007 15:59:43
#418

They are saying let's have an inquiry to how this application has been processed to ensure no irregularities have occurred.
Lawyers the snp are going no where near lawyers they dare not. Wish they would .

no one in the room...only the trump representatives oh well i suppose that means nobody was in the room oh yes
336

langtonian,

uphall 14/12/2007 16:05:50
Having been in Holyrood on thursday 13/12/07 from 9.30am to 5pm.As a first trial run with this new Scotsman layout this short comment sums up an excellent day.
From a plebians eye view of the proceedings," it was "pure theatre from start to finnish"
Nicoll Stevens has waited long and weary to "repay" Alex Salmond for the many jibes and comments he has directed his way.He certainly did not miss his target.
337

Seaforth,

14/12/2007 16:06:31
Poor Old Kimba Cow:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/7144663.stm
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14/12/2007 16:08:35
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Linda,

Edinburgh 14/12/2007 16:17:51
Yes Nicol Stephen is a disgrace, if he wants some real sleaze he should note the Midlothian Labour Party chairman being sacked from his day job as a tradesman for Midlothian Council for working on his own house in Council time, appealling the sacking and the committee of labour councillors re-instating him but not declaring an interest. They all had been "appointed" by this man and possibly as he may have worked on their homes in Council time and using Council materials they had to support him.

Also Wendy Alexander's woes continued last week as the details emerged that a Labour councillor in her own constituency is now facing a police inquiry. Williams worked alongside Alexander in the recent election campaign when he was chairman of her own local party and is thought to be a key local ally.

Tommy Williams was sacked from his job as a community support worker at Glasgow City Council last week. An investigation had centred on allegations that Williams' time-sheets had shown him at work, when he had in fact been engaged elsewhere. Williams' line manager is also believed to have lost his job following the internal investigation.

A spokesman for the council said last night: "I can confirm that two members of staff were dismissed following an investigation into allegations of financial irregularity and the matter has been referred to Strathclyde Police."

.
340

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 16:19:40
413. Still waiting for a response from the SNP's Switzerland Branch.

Are you still vehemently against the Trump plan now that the Salmond himself has got involved? That it took a meeting with the Trump organisation to result in the application being called in, is pure coincidence.

Pure coincidence, just like the Brian Souter donation of £500,000 that had absolutely nothing to do with the SNP dropping its pledge to re-regulate the nation's bus services a few weeks later.

That fishy smell is getting stronger all the time, isn't it!

And are you STILL trying to convince anyone who still cares that all support for the SNP is automatically support for independence despite every poll saying otherwise?

Your problem is that from your vantage point in the Alps, you don't have to worry about the political, economic and social upheaval that even a referendum would bring, let alone independence itself. All you need to worry about is your sentimental daydreams of 'mist-covered glens populated by strutting stags and soaring golden eagles and castles as far as the eye can see covered in Saltires'.
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Nikostratos,

14/12/2007 16:27:47
#424 Linda

yer waisting yer time..he..he..he
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14/12/2007 16:30:58
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Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 14/12/2007 16:34:46
We can only hope that the involvement of the police in this scandal will see the guilty person(s) brought to justice. Scotland deserves better.
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Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 14/12/2007 16:37:28
425 An English Voice

And nothing to do with the cross Forth hovercraft subsidy.
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Gerry Rourke,

Ayr 14/12/2007 16:41:28
Isn't it strange that this leading story has been relegated to the "other stories" section? Nationalist interference again.
346

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 16:45:30
426 AM2 - still here? You have avoided deportation then? If I were you I would ask for somewhere sunny for a wee Christmas break.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 16:46:13
431 Or maybe because its a non-story, Unlike the admitted law breaking of the dodgy donations.
348

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 16:52:30
429 What involvement of the police? I think you are mistaking this for the illegal donations story.
349

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 16:58:34
He's got a point, Swiss Tony!

30/11/07 - Con:12% Lab:29% LD:13% SNP:40%
02/05/07 - Con:13% Lab:31% LD:14% SNP:37%

And go back to this time LAST YEAR:
20/11/06 - Con:14% Lab:29% LD:16% SNP:36%

Not much of a difference at all, is there!

So after a year of intense SNP negative campaigning against Labour (as well as Labour shooting themselves in the foot with the odd cannon), the SNP have managed to increase their vote by only 4%.

And, even then, only at the expense of the LDs!
350

Jambo 25,

West Lothian 14/12/2007 17:05:48
Nikostratos, to justify a public enquiry there must be some kind of prima facie reason for investigation. There doesn't appear to be one here even if Steven is stamping his little feet up and down. Nobody, including Mr. Ford, appears to have done anything wrong. That is the reality.
My son deals with major and complex planning proposals on a day to day basis. Admittedly this is in England, at the present time, but the procedures are similar to those in Scotland and he was trained at ECA/Heriot Watt. He can see no reason for any enquiry or alarm in this case. Salmond, Swinney and McKinnon do not appear to have done anything out of order and the fact that you, clearly, don't like either Salmond or the SNP, is no reason to hold one.
351

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 17:08:31
435 Those polls show the SNP resurgent, and at their highest ratings ever. There was no "negative" campaign against Labour - quite the opposite, Labour ran an unremittingly negative campaign, along the lines of the arguments you use every day, which back-fired very badly. The SNP did not post illegal donations to Labour.
352

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 14/12/2007 17:14:24
I bet Mr Salmond is quivering in his boots at these lates revelations. The stories and the fib-dems have really uncovered a major scandal here which rocks the very foundations of Scottish government. I wish all MSP's were as dilligent at spotting such heinous crimes. I wonder when Whining Wendy will stick her oar in?
353

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 17:20:51
438 What is the scandal exactly? A planning application, overwhelmingly supported by councillors, the local area committee and 80% of locals, may be approved without any impropriety on the part of ministers? Shocking. COmpares most unfavourably with people taking illegal money for party political benefit.
354

Whiskyman,

Aberdeenshire 14/12/2007 17:26:06
What chance have we got of any external investment in Scotland if we let petty socialists and dithering Liberals hijack our country. Mr Salmond is entirely correct in pulling this in. The detractors above, who obviously have no connection with Aberdeenshire, should seriously consider what they say. This country needs investment, they should think again about writing so much ill thought garbage.
355

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 17:26:15
Where is AM2?
356

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 17:35:05
Salmond has been caught breaching the rules by getting involved in a £1BILLION investment bid. As FM, he shouldn't have got involved at all!

But he went ahead and met with the Trump reps....and then called it in for review! If Labour did that, you SNP members would be screaming from the rooftops and you know it.

Also, the Govt's Chief Planner rang the Aberdeenshire Council while representatives of Trump were in the room! The Council rightly asked them to leave so the conversation could be held in private! (Did they leave?)

Just how cosy with Trump is Salmond and the SNP?

Will we see a donation to the SNP from Trump (UK) in the next few weeks?

The SNP mob can rant, rave, whinge, moan and try to distract until the cows come home.

But it doesn't change for one second that this stinks of good old 'bung me a wad and I'll see what I can do' corruption.

Just like the wad given by Brian Souter just before the SNP dropped their 'bus regulation' pledge from their manifesto!
357

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 17:38:18
443 Totally wrong. As local MSP he has a duty to get involved. As FM he is entitled to be involved, as long as he meets all sides and doesn't back or oppose publicly.

Jack McConnell met Trump many times on this, and hired a helicopter to take Trump people round the site. The FM is doing his job by facilitating discussions etc on an important investment. There is no hint of impropriety. It is a sad reflection on Unionists that they would muck-rake on this, at the potential cost of investment and jobs in Scotland. It exposes their attitude to Scotland
358

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 17:39:09
Anyway. Winged Messenger/World View/Swiss Tony:

What is your opinion today on the Trump proposal?

When the committee rejected it, you rejoiced from your Alpine hideaway, much to the anger of many other LOCAL posters on the thread (ie. NOT living it up distant from the consequences of that finding).

But, now that Salmond has started sniffing around the project, do you suddenly agree with this much needed investment in an area fast losing its livelihood?
359

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 17:58:38
437. No, these polls show the SNP STAGNANT OR WORSE despite their best efforts to trash the opposition.

1. Electoral standings are the same as they were in March and as they were a year ago.

2. Support for independence is LOWER than it was in 1998:

Feb 2007 - YES 44% - NO 42% - DK 11%
Jan 2007 - 51% - 36% - 14%
Nov 2006 - 51% - 39% - 9%
Jan 2000 - 47% - 43% - 9%
Apr 1999 - 47% - 44% - 9%
Mar 1999 - 42% - 47% - 11%
Feb 1999 - 44% - 47% - 9%
Jan 1999 - 49% - 42% - 9%
Nov 1998 - 49% - 43% - 8%
Sep 1998 - 48% - 37% - 15%
Sep 1998 - 51% - 38% - 10%
Jul 1998 - 49% - 44% - 7%
Jun 1998 - 56% - 35% - 9%
Jun 1998 - 48% - 37% - 15%
Jun 1998 - 52% - 41% - 7%

You are not alone in thinking otherwise though:

"The long-term trend is that there's more support for Scottish independence than there has ever been."
Alex Salmond Jan 2007 (Really?!)

You are as psychotic as each other!

3. The SNP admit that only 1% of the adult population of Scotland has bothered to download the SNP's much publicised White Paper on independence.
360

World View,

14/12/2007 18:03:03
Hello English Voiceless,

Yes, I'm furious with the SNP and won't be voting for them in the foreseeable future.

But that's OK, because my heart lies with the Greens and, just as not everyone who supports the SNP supports independence, there are many people who don't vote SNP but who support independence with all their heart.

I'm living proof. So are the Greens.

You say: "Your problem is that from your vantage point in the Alps, you don't have to worry about the political, economic and social upheaval that even a referendum would bring, let alone independence itself."

Your problem is that, like all stupid people, you make assumptions that have no bearing on truth. And, besides, what's it got to do with you? From your little vantage point in some dreary English puddle of mud, you don't have to worry about the political, economic and social improvements that even a referendum would bring, as well as independence itself.

Or are you revealing yourself to be a stupid little unionist Scotsman who's pretending to be a stupid Englishman just to drive your stupid little wedge?

361

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:11:34
446. Strange, the polls you cited show the SNP with an 11% lead over the nearest unionist party, and at an all-time high? This suggests that the SNP are, erm, the most popular party in Scotland.... Or do they teach alternate poll interpretation along with pompousity and clairvoyance at Unionist school?

Winged - you tell that clown!
362

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 18:12:34
447. Ah, there it is, the predictable

"stupid little unionist Scotsman"

response from the pro-independence brigade.

And on top of that, you actually believe that an independence referendum in Scotland would have no repurcussions elsewhere in the country. You really are a long way away, aren't you.
363

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:13:38
449 What do you mean "repercussions elsewhere in the country"?
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World View,

14/12/2007 18:17:11
#449

You, English Voice, are living proof that unionists are stupid.

It is not intended as an insult but a statement of fact.

I wouldn't include AM2, however, who merely passes his time being silly.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:19:15
451 I think he would have to climb up a bit to be stupid. He is certainly self satisfied and smug, with an IQ low enough to enable self assurance while not appreciating how asinine and silly his "arguments" are. He says Scotland is massively subsidised and we depend on this, and this should stop, but that we should also stay in the union? Very odd.
366

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 18:19:29
450. Are you serious?

Actually no. You probably don't get it at all, do you.

Maybe if you look outside you tiny little SNP world, it may start to dawn on you why just a referendum would be harmful to Scotland and the rest of the UK, and why there is considerable hesitation from those that would have to deal with it.

Go on, have a crack at it.
367

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:20:18
453 Please explain the "repercussions" of a referedum?
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14/12/2007 18:20:44
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 14/12/2007 18:21:39
You would need a heart of stone not to laugh out loud at Mr Salmond's performance at yesterday's FMQ. The look on the sleekit wee numpty's face when Nicol asked him who was in the chief planner's office when the phone call was made was priceless.
I thought the fun was over until Newsnight when they sent their very own tartan Kenneth Williams on to defend them. Alex Neil seemed to think that the attacks were on the chief plannner and snorted like a demented camel in outrage at the imagined attacks on the official.
No you numpty, we mean you....as I said, priceless.
370

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 18:22:55
And as the both of you have regressed back to your usual tedious little insults and plain misquotes, I'm off.

You nats are just going to get angrier and angrier with everything as time goes by and it is going to be a joy to watch!
371

langtonian,

scotus 14/12/2007 18:24:49
Nicoll Steven was not the only direction that Alex Salmond was being assailed, Annabel Goldie was in for a bit of the action,she has a way with words that is simple, direct, yet very very effective the extent my opinion, whereby the First Minister was nearly at a loss for an appropriate reply/comment and that takes some doing.Anyone who did not watch the Holy rood live half hour would not be fully aware that when Anabel Goldie ended her comments, the banging of desks, and stamping of feet in approval would have tested the higher end of the Richter scale to its limits.

What tends to get lost with all the brouha-ha, is with so much media focus on the main protagonist's matters in the business buletin,while not by passed do not get the media attention that they warrant such motions, both very well presented, with many first class relevant/creative/ideas,suffered.
1)S3M-1018-Scottish Liberal Demcrats Debate:Sport and Young People,Ross Finnie,Stewart Maxwell,Jamie McGregor all had telling points on offer, as did
2)S3M-1017-Civil LIberties Debate,with Margaret Smith,Bill Aitken,and Patrick Harvie all pointing up certain features relevant to Fundamental Liberties/ID cards/DNA retention/Data protection act.As one who was pretty well committed to the Id card regime, the references made have more or less reversed my opinion.I only mention it to highlight the point that
,when given the opportunity to be involved there are many first class, knowledgeable MSP,who when given the opportunity are well worth listening to.As previously said much of it gets buried and lost under a welter of media(all) focusing on the story of the moment-golf.

To close can I advise one and all that as sure as "God made little fishes" growling away JUST beneath the political surface the next up major story will revolve around the word "concordat"-MSP David McLetchie gave a late on bravura epose of the flaws already to be perceived in that particular document, as a word it may not be the most
372

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 18:25:02
Winged Messenger.World View/Swiss Tony,

Look, your bestest pal Ciderman is here!

Tell him again how you feel about the Trump investment!

Or maybe you'll just want to tell him "f**k off!" again.

It's up to you.
373

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:29:27
456 Are those the "secret" meetings with Trump envoys about which press releases were issued?

Or perhaps you refer to Mr McConnell's many meetings with Trump, including the hire of a helicopter at taxpayer expense to ferry Trump "envoys", and e-mails putting Scottish Governemnt staff at Trump's disposal?

Please explain why it was ok, indeed good, for McConnell to meet Trump, put staff at his disposal and back the plan, but bad, nay unethical, for the local MSP to meet with interested parties without public endorsement of the plan?
374

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14/12/2007 18:35:34
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14/12/2007 18:38:02
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:40:32
464 Was it the SNP who gave Ecclestone his carcinogen advertising for £1 million, the Hindujas their passport applications expedited, Blunket's lover's nanny's visa application expedited, and who got 90% of their funding from donors they had sold peerages to?

Nope, that was all Labour, all sleaze. The SNP government may or may not approve a planning application with overwhelming local council and population support, having acted within all rules? Scandalous. But Labour, who have admitted law breaking, run the risk of destroying local jobs (which McConnell backed, in many meetings with Trump) to divert from their sleaze. That is scandalous.
377

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:41:18
465 By "in sceret" do you mean the meeting Alex Salmond had, and immediately issued a press release about, which was picked up and reported in the local press two weeks ago?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:42:34
465 Jack McConnell hired a helicopter for touring them round the site. Labour have attacked Salmond for using his car. Hypocrisy and diversion from illegal donation sleaze anyone? Or maybe you can explain why the helicopter is fine, but him going in his car is dubious?
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14/12/2007 18:46:13
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:48:12
469 Ciderman

you said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret".

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
381

An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 18:48:37
And kick. And scream. And kick. And scream. And kick. And scream. And kick. And scream....

...And relax.

So it's fine for the SNP to indulge in dubious activities...becuase Labour did?

Going by the SNP's performance over their first seven months, the political corruption guideline at SNP Central is indeed "What's good for the goose, is good for the gander."

Most admirable.
382

beckypumps1,

Fife 14/12/2007 18:50:50
Labour like things that spin so helicopters are fine. Has Wendy been charged yet?
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14/12/2007 18:50:57
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:52:09
471 What dubious activities? The only dubious political activities in Scotland of late have been the admitted illegality of Labour donations.

Are you saying Scottish Labour's leader was acting "dubiously" when he met Trump? If so, do you think it odd Scottish Labour are attacking Salmond?
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Nikostratos,

14/12/2007 18:52:49
#468 Ayrshire Scot™

Give it up ayrshire the big boy's are after him. It is in a different league now. Welcome to Government snp



Trump dealings highlight need for probity


the First Minister cannot easily avoid the accusation that the ready access which Donald Trump has had to SNP channels hints of special treatment,
386

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:53:59
473 Ciderman. I asked you three questions about your posts, you don't want to answer them? Here they are again

you said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?

If "bang to rights" then Salmond is "bang to rights" for acting more in accordance with the code than McConnell (who backed the plan publicly)....
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14/12/2007 18:54:05
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:55:25
475 Niko

it was McConnell who offered government staff to Trump and backed the plan publicly. Salmond has acted within the code. I am enjoying this unionist desperation though. Do you think jeopardising jobs and investment in the NE will save Wendy?
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 18:56:17
"Mr Salmond has previously made clear his support for the project. He has met Mr Trump on SEVERAL occasions, while emphasising he has no role in the planning process."

Where are the press releases for all these meetings?

"In October, amid accusations Mr Salmond had become too close to Mr Trump following dinner with the tycoon in New York, a spokesman insisted the First Minister would not be involved in the planning process."

So TWICE it has been stated that Salmond would not have any involvement in the planning process.

And yet....."In an UNUSUAL move, the Scottish Government last week called in the planning application, giving finance secretary John Swinney the final say on the matter."

Curious!
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 18:56:38
477 Still no answer to my questions? mm, that suggests this is all Lbaour hot air and diversion.

As for Wendy, two members of her campaign team have admitted the law was broken.
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tartan army 2222,

14/12/2007 18:57:44
And this article is relevant how? The Labour Party is mired in sleaze yet the Scotsman is attacking Alex Salmond for doing something he was obliged to do. If the rules need changing then change them but until then the Scotsman needs to get it's priorities right.
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14/12/2007 18:59:01
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:01:46
482 In Camera? That is allowed - he is allowed to back the plan privately, as long as he doesn't do so publicly (as McConnell did). Can you elaborate on how Salmond backed these plans privately?

AS for my 3 questions, want to try an answer or is this all just so much Labour posturing, after Labour have admitted illegality in London and Scotland? Here are the 3 questions you are curiously avoiding....

you said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:03:16
482 How did the SNP give Sean Connery a knighthood? Have the SNP been secretly elected to govern the UK? Why should one of the most famous actors in the world not get a knighthood? Or is he less deserving than Judy Dench or Lord Levy for an honour?
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:06:03
483. So a First Minister can't back a huge investment project 'publicly'? Is that what you are saying?

You are just making it all up, aren't you!

You haven't got a clue what you are talking about, do you!

He CAN'T get involved in the PLANNING....but he CAN back the proposal, idiot! LOL!

Did McConnell interfere with the local planning procedures? No!

Is Salmond interfering with the local planning procedures? YES!

And where are all these 'press releases'?
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/12/2007 19:06:39
The sad bit is the SNP are just as corrupt as all the rest.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:10:31
485 Have a read at the ministerial code. You are making a bit of a larger pillock of yourself than usual. he is prohibted from publicly backing or opposing an application, and is obliged to either meet no sides or both for and against sides in an application.

McConnell met with Trump many times and publicly backed the plans. I ask again, why are Labour hyping this?

PS, please do try and acquaint yourself with some of the background, you look a bit foolish. I do congratulate your restraint however in not claiming a job in planning or golg so far on this thread.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:11:09
487 Cidemna

4th time, and still no answers to some simple questions:
you said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:12:42
487 admit her mistake, people will forgive her her inexperience if she does (maybe, but may be up to the procurator); otherwise... face criminal charges with a possible jail sentence for breach of electoral law, a breach of law admitted by two Labour MSPs?
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14/12/2007 19:13:19
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14/12/2007 19:16:39
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:16:58
491 Sean Connery was blocked for an honour by Labour. The SNp campaigned openly on this? See BBC or google it. So what - he is one of the most famous actor's in the world and has donated considerably to Scottish charities - why should he not be knighted? Bit more deserving than Lord Levy or Sir Micky Hirst?

5th time, a few questions that relate to your previous posts. Why the inability to answer them? Is looking as if you are just blwoing hot air to distract from ADMITTED ILLEGALITY. Have another go...

You said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved (and no helicopter or government staff being offered by Salmond as opposed to McConnell)?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:17:40
494 What is the wrongdoing you allege?
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:19:53
488. So now you are claiming to be an expert in constitutional law, as well as a doctor and time traveller (Doctor?....Time traveller?.....Are you....?!).

You really do talk 3rd rate cr@p. To suggest that a First Minister, indeed any politican, cannot welcome, support and back a major investment in the economy is beyond ridiculous.

O'Connell was doing his job in supporting the investment.

Salmond is interfering in local planning procedures.

And as that this is also in HIS consituency, reeks of graft.

And where are these 'press releases' you keep using to defend your great leader? Where are thay and what do they say all these meetings between Salmond and Trump were about?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:21:38
495. The press releases were issued after the meeting, and were reported in the local press two weeks ago.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:22:43
495 What is 1st rate and 2nd rate cr*p? Is this what you type, and is 1st rate cr*p better or worse than 3rd rate cr*p?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:23:29
492 No answers to some simpel questions, Cider? Pity, seems you are just posturing to divert from admitted illegality.
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:25:31
496. One release for ALL the meetings? Or just the ones the media found out about?

You can say they exist but you are clearly an SNP acitivist who's word is less than reliable.

WHERE ARE THEY?

And what was discussed at these meetings? Was Salmond just after information on the project (surely the project's website or the planning app would have done the job)...

...Or was he offering a transaction of some kind?
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:26:56
498. I have answered your questions, your pr@t!
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:27:06
499 The press releases were issued and thus the meeting was reported two weeks ago in the local press. The discussions were detailed at FMQs last week.

Still maintaining they were secret meetings?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:27:44
500 Are you Ciderman at 492?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:30:49
503 So, 6th time an no answers to some simple questions? Looks like desperate Labour diversion from admitted law breaking, sad...

you said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:32:13
503 38 seconds to type "Are you Ciderman at 492?"

yes, clearly a mass, hi-tech, centrally funded SNP operation involved
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:32:24
501. I have been searching the net for about 30mins and I have not found ONE SINGLE press release on any of these meetings between Trump and Salmond.

Nothing.

None of the reports in the media are quoting or sourcing any press release from the SNP or the Scottish Government.
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beckypumps1,

fife. 14/12/2007 19:34:15
486 I tend to agree. But I think I would still vote for them (snp) As far as I can see Labour and some not all of its supporters are pretty sleazy.
Hopefully this comment to the best of my knowledge is non slanderous to any upstanding msp.
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/12/2007 19:34:16
Just checkong the dirty word dictionary of the paper - feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

James Bond walks into a bar and sits next to a sexy blonde with brains (an exotic bar).

When he buys her a drink to go alongside his Martini, she introduces heself as Fondles Ferrari. After Bond has supplied her with a couple more drinks she confesses that Fondles Ferrari is not her real name. She made it up because she likes fondling and Ferraris.

She asks Bond what his name is.
"Charlie Beercunt".
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:34:51
503 Cider

the sums donated by Soutar and Connery are delcared to the Electoral commission and are legal. They are much smaller than th £1 million from Ecclestone to Labour, and are smaller than the £600,00 from Abrahams. They also differ from Labour donations in being (1) properly declared and not concealed (2) being legal (3) not involving third parties to deliberately obscure the donation....
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:35:56
506 7th time, why don't you answer?

you said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:38:16
504. It's quite simple but you are clearly tying yourself up in knots.

Salmond is forbidden to take part in the planning process.

Salmond has had several meetings with Trump and his reps in Scotland and in New York. What was discussed is not known. There is no indication of these even being announced.

Shortly after the last of these meetings, the 'Scottish Government' called in the planning application for review by.....the SNP Finance Secretary.

Discuss.
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Dominic,

Scottish Borders 14/12/2007 19:40:17
Wow, this has really got people talking!!!

This topic could go on forever but in my opinion having had the Chair of the planning commitee resign over his handling of this planning application & the fact that there is hugh support for this development in the area ( OK there are also some objections too)but it is about time people and there needs are taken into consideration too for it seem all too often when big planning applications come in you have all the consevation groups banging in their wishes & it seems that these are more often than not deemed more important than the human requirements from this area ie - housing jobs & decent infastructure.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:40:46
507 That would speak perhaps to your abilities. Labour have questioned use of Government staff in issuing the press release (if they did) and you are still questioning the press release itself? Ho Hum. Very secret meeting, press releases and all. Same for Salmond's meeting with Trump in October. Hush hush, press releases.....
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Jambo 25,

West Lothian 14/12/2007 19:44:10
Ciderman. Ayrshire Scot has asked you 3 questions on about 5 separate occasions. Might you hazard to answer them now? Would you also care to repeat the accusations you made in posting 482 and expand them. Just a warning though. I'd be a bit careful as Connery, Souter or Trump might sue even if the pols don't. You see when you make accusations like these you have to have some proof.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:45:40
513 Salmond is bebarred from involvement in the decision on planning applications. He is allowed to meet with applicants, if he meets all sides - that is the ministerial code. AS local MSP he is bound to meet wth all sides.

Please read the following and come back slightly more informed.

Claims that Jack McConnell breached ministerial rules over his dealings with Donald Trump have been rejected.
The first minister's close association with the US billionaire has come under scrutiny as a result of Mr Trump's plan to build an Aberdeenshire golf resort.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/4936652.stm

McConnell's support for the project had clearly been offered, the documents show.
But the documents revealed here today prove that McConnell did meet Trump to discuss the details of his plans for the golf course. He was, according to SDI's American chief, "committed to the partnership that will deliver this project".
http://news.scotsman.com/businessandthescottishparliament/How-Jack-of-clubs-came.2775346.jp
The ministerial code of conduct is clear: ministers must not do anything which "might be seen as prejudicial" to the planning process, including "meeting the developer or objectors to discuss the proposal, but not meeting all parties with an interest in the decision".
Salmond has met all sides.
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:45:45
512. Wow, you ARE stupid.

How many times to do you have to be told your 'questions' have been answered?

That you refuse to admit that Salmond has been caught meeting Trump and his reps IN SECRET (what press releases??) in Scotland and in New York....about a major investment in HIS constituency....and that he has now ordered in the planning application to be reveiwed by one of HIS people....despite rules staing he is FORBIDDEN from involvement in planning...and that you refuse to admit this reeks of corruption and graft only proves one thing.

You are an idiot.

Wish I could stay and watch you flap like a landed salmon but life calls.

Goodnight.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:47:58
516 Both Scottish Labour and UK Labour (the same party, incidentally) have admitted breaking electoral law.

8th time of asking three questions about your previous posts. The fact you don't answer them has passed beyond obviating your attempts to smear and divert.


You said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:49:15
519 Why did Labour question who issued the press releases (they were getting at MSP vs FM role) - see parliamnetary transcripts.... Oh dear, secret meetings with press releases..... hush hush
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/12/2007 19:50:26
Ciderman, 516. I don't think Trump will be allowed to give Salmond anything for his golf thing. This is not New Labour he's dealing with.

I would say, in this instance, the rubber stamp would be free.
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:50:36
From the Scotsman
McConnell's support for the project had clearly been offered, the documents show.
But the documents revealed here today prove that McConnell did meet Trump to discuss the details of his plans for the golf course. He was, according to SDI's American chief, "committed to the partnership that will deliver this project".
http://news.scotsman.com/businessandthescottishparliament/How-Jack-of-clubs-came.2775346.jp

And yet Labour claim that Salmond meeting Trump may leave the process open to appeal? Weird. You would think that it would be the McConnell meetings which indicate support which woul do that?
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An English Voice™,

14/12/2007 19:51:51
521. For the 6th time:

WHAT PRESS RELEASES?

You, an SNP card-carrier, claiming they exist does not stand as any proof that they actually do.
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14/12/2007 19:54:12
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HMFC,

14/12/2007 19:57:35
Having been caught with their fingers in the till alex you should really own up ....

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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 19:58:37
525 9th time and no answers? Pity

524 - Press release issued to local & national press day of the meeting. Please check reports on the issue.
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14/12/2007 19:59:19
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 20:01:20
524 EV, 525 CiderMan

why have senior Tory, Labour, Liberal and SNP MSPs all backed the decision to call in the plan for review?

Why did the Rural Affairs committee of the Scottish parliament, chaired by a Lib Dem and with no SNP majority, also back the review?

This can go with the 3 questions on Ciderman's posts he refuses to answer, for the 10th time.

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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/12/2007 20:01:28
Ciderman, 525, take it you're used to to 2 rights making a wrong?

Must be your support of the opposition parties teaching you O grade sums.
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14/12/2007 20:01:52
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 20:03:41
528 What is the difference between McConnell's meetings, where he offered support for the plans, and Salmonds (except Salmond is the local MSP and has kept within the code by not publicly backing or opposing the plans)

"But the documents revealed here today prove that McConnell did meet Trump to discuss the details of his plans for the golf course. He was, according to SDI's American chief, "committed to the partnership that will deliver this project". Scotsman.
http://news.scotsman.com/businessandthescottishparliament/How-Jack-of-clubs-came.2775346.jp
The other questions about your posts you don't answer...


You said the meetings were "secret" - a press release was issued about them and they were reported in the local press. Do you maintain the meetings were "secret"?

How do the meetings differ from those of McConnel, except for Salmond being the local MSP and therefor more involved?

Do you support the criticisms of Salmond using his car when McConnell hired them a helicopter at taxpayer expense?
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14/12/2007 20:04:59
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/12/2007 20:05:44
531 So no answers then? Weird, they were not hard questions and related to your posts directly. Why no answers? Can you not understand the questions? Shoudl I use smaller words?

Salmond is caught, as you say, - caught being within the code and doing his job as MSP properly and legally. Labour are caught, having admitted breaking the law. Bit of a contrast.
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PTDouglas.,

EK 14/12/2007 20:06:57
What desparate nonsense.... a lot of hot air to deflect attention from REAL wrongdoing by Wendy Alexander and Scottish Labour.

The SNP stands to gain nothing from Trump.... and therefor the word "sleaze" is in no way appropriate.The benificiary of Trumps development going ahead is the Scottish economy and the Scottish people, particularly those in the North East where the jobs to be created are desperatly needed.

Salmond and the SNP Government put Scotlands interests 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.... ALWAYS. I've yet to speak to a single person that thinks Scotland can afford to be so flippant with regards to turning away £billion investments. Irish bankers I work with are astonished at the opposition in Scotland for playing fast and loose political point scoring games with such a major investor/investment. Put simply.... the unholy unionist coalition of Labour, Tory and LibDems... desperate to score a point, any point, against the SNP, are gambling with the jobs and well being of thousands of Scots in order to advance their narrow and petty party political agendas.

They are making Scotland look like a banana republic and risk undoing decades of hard work in attracting serious, large scale inward investment projects to this country. Investors are looking at the petty treatment and snide comments directed at Donald Trump and his project in horror! Does anyone think they are about to line up to come to Scotland and be abused?

The opposition parties at Holyrood are undermining Scotlands credability and endangering future inward investment...... to score a point against the SNP.

Those posters jumping on the "deflect attention from Wendygate" program.... are, like the Holyrrod Unionist Alliance, endagering Scotlands interests in the name of petty party political point scoring. And for me, and so many others, that is exactly what marks the SNP out as different from the London based political dinosuars.

This £billion investment WILL come to Scotland.

Over a thousa