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Global warming is not our fault … it's nature

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Published Date: 11 February 2009
DR JIM Buckee says he feels like a heretic, persecuted for his views and treated like an outcast. His crime? Being a climate change sceptic.
Next week the former chief executive of the oil and gas firm Talisman, who has a PhD in astrophysics from the University of Oxford, will try to convince others that climate change has nothing to do with human activity.

During a lecture at the Uni
versity of Aberdeen he will argue that, far from warming, the Earth is set to enter a 20-year cooling period.

Dr Buckee believes human behaviour has no effect on the climate and the vast sums spent by governments trying to promote renewable energy to cut greenhouse gas emissions are being wasted.

Far from being a key cause of climate change, he says, carbon dioxide emissions have little or no impact.

His views are contrary to those held by governments, the Royal Society – an independent science body – the Met Office and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Instead of human activities being responsible for the warming climate over the past 100 years, Dr Buckee insists there is a natural explanation, based on the activity of the Sun.

Solar activity can affect the cosmic rays that reach the Earth's atmosphere, and this in turn affects the climate, he says.

The "solar explanation" is one shared by many climate change sceptics.

Dr Buckee says he is arguing against a tide of popular opinion which verges on the religious.

"Any dissension is like a heresy," he says. "People are stamped on so they can't be heard. That has religious overtones."

Of renewables such as wind farms, he says they make sense only if they are "economic". But he adds: "Mostly they are non-economic. They are made economic by government incentives. The poor taxpayer is paying out for these misguided conceptions."

He adds: "A lot of the people I have talked to in the UK government are well-intentioned and think they are saving the world. They have suppressed their critical faculties because they think they are doing good."

Dr Buckee believes his views are widespread although not always voiced.

"I think it is the dominant view in professional science circles," he says.

"I know lots of people in universities and so on and quite often they have to retire before they can say what they want because it's so frowned upon."

Although he spent his career in the oil and gas industry, he denies having any vested interest.

"A vested interest would make me shut up because it would drag up controversy," he says. He adds that, while he was chief executive of Talisman, he did not make his views known, although he would explain them if asked.

Dr Buckee's belief in a solar explanation, a view expounded on a vast array of websites, is familiar to those in the climate change movement, who argue it has been discounted.

Several studies have dismissed it as a possible explanation, including one by Professor Mike Lockwood from the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, who found the amount of solar activity in the past two decades was inadequate to back up the theory.

Dr David Reay, a climate change scientist at the University of Edinburgh, says: "If we could explain everything through natural drivers it would be great.

"It's something we would all like to hear – that it's not our fault, that we can't do anything about it and that we can go on burning fossil fuels and having a nice time.

"But the science shows we are to a large part responsible for the climate changing."

He says global temperature changes in the late 19th and early 20th centuries could be explained "fairly well" by the solar theory, but not the extent of warming over recent decades. "Climate change isn't all down to human activities, but we can only explain the extent of it by greenhouse gas emissions," he says.

And he argues that if the solar explanation was true the planet should have cooled for the past 20 years, when actually it has warmed.

He believes that people will question Dr Buckee's views. "People are used to academics with all sorts of fancy-sounding titles coming out with views on whether we should have the MMR vaccine, or take Ecstasy, or go horse-riding. They are used to being sceptical and interrogating the facts.

"People should look at the facts and make up their own mind."

Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, says Dr Buckee's arguments are "nonsense".

He says: "There's no uncertainty that it's happening nor that humans are responsible for the vast majority of it.

"The uncertainty is about the scale and weight of climate change, and just how much we can tolerate before it becomes catastrophic."

He says those who refuse to believe in human-induced climate change are like people who refuse to believe in the theory of evolution.

He has been invited to the lecture, but says he very much doubts he will go. "I don't see any point in giving it any credence," he adds.

"The cosmic ray nonsense is just that – nonsense."

He says: "He might be a very entertaining speaker, but I don't think people will find anything of practical value in going to a talk like that."

He says the solar explanation has been thoroughly considered by climate scientists and has been rebutted on more than one occasion.

And he says people should put no weight on Dr Buckee's scientific background. "He has a scientific qualification. That's different from being a practising climate scientist," he says.

Mr McLaren says that, far from having their views suppressed, sceptics have been given too much exposure.

"It has been massively damaging on a public and political level that the views of a small minority of ill-informed sceptics have been given virtually equal weight to the consensus of the scientific community by the majority of the mainstream media," he says.

"Something that's contrary to the accepted wisdom is more likely to be seen as news. If a scientist stood up and said the IPCC was right, there wouldn't be any news."

He says it is "absolute nonsense" that the majority of professional scientists agree with Dr Buckee. Instead, he says those who are sceptical are taking the easy option.

"We don't like to feel that it's our fault because we drive a car, or take a foreign holiday, or heat the house," he says.

"It would be nice to not have to feel that it was a personal responsibility and I'm sure that for someone who has worked in the oil and gas industry all his life, these sort of psychological pressures are greater."

Evidence does not back solar activity theory, say scientists

IN THE lecture, Dr Jim Buckee will put forward the idea that solar activity is responsible for changes to the climate.

He will say the climate of the past few hundred years is a continuation of a normal process of gradual warming since the ice age 10,000 years ago.

During that time, he argues, there have been constant fluctuations. He believes those fluctuations are caused by varying solar activity.

When the sun is strong, it deflects cosmic rays from within and outside our galaxy. When the sun is weak, the rays enter the Earth's atmosphere and cause low cloud, which has a cooling effect.

He believes that, after a period of warming, the Earth is now entering a period of cooling that will last until 2030 or beyond.

It is just one of the many theories put forward by sceptics, who argue that humans are not responsible for climate change.

However, climate-change scientists argue that this theory, as well as the others, are unsatisfactory explanations.

It was a view put forward for climate change in the controversial television programme The Great Global Warming Swindle last year.

The makers questioned the existence of the scientific consensus on the causes of climate change, and put forward solar activity as an alternative explanation for the warming planet.

However, scientific studies have found that in the past two decades solar activity has been declining and could not therefore be used to explain the rapid rise of global temperatures.

Experts have concluded that the global warming cannot be ascribed to solar variability. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which has assessed the evidence about global warming, has come to the conclusion that most of the increase in global temperatures is very likely due to increases in greenhouse gas emissions caused by humans.

It believes the probability that the warming is caused by natural climatic processes alone is less than 5 per cent.

The panel predicts that temperatures will rise by up to 6 deg during the 21st century, that sea levels will rise by up to 59cm and that there will be more frequent warm spells, heatwaves and heavy rainfall.

The panel also predicts there will be an increase in droughts, tropical cyclones and extreme high tides.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 February 2009 9:50 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Global Warming
 
1

druidh,

edinburgh 11/02/2009 01:09:00
Why is Mars also getting warmer? Oh yes - that's all to do with natural cycles of wind and dust-storms. Or is it all those Martian 4x4s?
2

Hmm ...,

11/02/2009 01:19:03
..."Experts have concluded that the global warming cannot be ascribed to solar variability. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which has assessed the evidence about global warming, has come to the conclusion that most of the increase in global temperatures is very likely due to increases in greenhouse gas emissions caused by humans."

Expert civil servants, that is, wo are under instruction to promote the concept so that (1) tax revenue can be increased through "green" taxes and (2) so that a transfer of funds to developing non-industrialised countries can be facilitated.

Perhaps Jenny Haworth could tell us why market gardeners increase the CO2 content of the air in their greenhouses to promote plant growth if CO2 is a pollutant?

Lies, damned lies all of it, intended to fool the gullible! And promoted by the loony Left, wich seems to include our present government. For now at least.
3

,

11/02/2009 01:35:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

not_just_now,

Subarushire 11/02/2009 03:05:01
Good for Dr Jim Buckee to speak out like this. Duncan McLaren's appalling attack on Dr Buckee (comparing him and other doubters to Creationists) reinforces why I now am firmly against the anthropogenic global warming theory; AGW believers appear to favour personal attacks rather than scientific debate. As a science graduate I have supported AGW since the early 1990s, mainly because I believe in the precautionary principal, and reducing our carbon footprint is a good thing, irrespective of whether it has a postive or negative impact on our climate. However, the IPCC's own figures show that the Earth has been cooling since 1998, and the whole carbon thesis is still unproven after 20 years. Their models are seriously flawed (this year the Met office predicted a "milder then average winter for the UK" - if their models can't get a three month forecast right why should we believe what they say it will be like in 50 years time?) As for Mclaren's claim that there is only a "small minority of ill-informed sceptics", in December 2008 650 eminent scientists went public at the Poznan conference to say they disagreed with the IPCC. And over 31,000 scientists have now signed a petition questioning AGW. It's time the press started to also question the global warming scaremongers. Anyone interested a rounded view of climate change should visit www.wattsupwiththat.com - journalists should go to www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm to see how they have been made fools of by scientists desperate for funding. Rant over.
5

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 11/02/2009 04:22:40
Strangely Governments have only become interested in global warming when they figured out a whole raft of 'green' taxes to 'help' us realise the errors of our ways doubtless .... or was/is it just a cash grab ?

Yup, you've guessed it !
6

Pespiholic,

Toledo OH 11/02/2009 04:57:34
CO2 concentration has increased in our atmosphere from 320 ppm in 1950's to 380 ppm today... that means that the CO2 in the 1950's was 0.0032% of the atmosphere and now it's 0.0038%.

And you wonder why we are skeptical?
7

donald,

glasgow 11/02/2009 05:41:37
It could be the hot air from Labour Inquiries into themselves?
8

SandyR,

Bath 11/02/2009 06:04:22
During the Jurassic, say, CO2 was 3-5 times higher than today and global temperatures 5-10 degrees centigrade higher. The fossil record shows that the biosphere was extremely healthy in that period.
Thus increased CO2 and temperature is good for life on Earth. No amount of lies from grant-chasing charlatans or tax-hungry politicians can alter this basic fact.
Unfortunately, since oct. '05 the sun's activity has dropped to record low levels and the current data points quite sharply to cooling. You will notice the 'warming trends' will need to start earlier to try and offset the recent cooling.
A cooling world kills plants, animals and people, and our politicians are woefully unprepared.
9

Steve Church,

Toronto, Canada 11/02/2009 06:15:25
GHG levels are 40% higher than the pre-industrial period. 99% of the atmosphere isn't GHG 'stuff'. It's irrelevant. Comparisons to 40 million years of the healthy Jurassic is almost funny. Climate disruption, ocean acidification, and dead zones, are all linked to increasing contributions from the pollution. Instead of feeling persecuted, Dr. Buckee might try a round of feeling guilty.
10

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 11/02/2009 07:32:50
At long last the truth is coming out,first the Irish Environment minister and now Jim Buckee. There is actually a huge raft of opinion out there that is sceptical about man made global warming.
We have seen them ridiculed and called "Denier's" this of course tends to come from people who do not have a clue what they are talking about.
This does not mean that we don't have to clean up our act with things like recycling, filtering exhaust fumes etc.
What is a complete waste of time are things like wind turbines which as Jim Buckee says are simply not economic. They simply destroy the natural landscape and ruin peoples lives as well as driving up the cost of electricity.
11

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 08:00:13
It's beginning to unravel sadly (or gladly).

We are now at a cross roads with this. If we manage to combat MMGW, then we initiate Global cooling and we're back to the 70's ice age scare (we cannot create stasis in a thermodynamic unit, it's impossible given myraid factors that are present in the World).

In the mean time, this predicted 10 years of colder winters and summers is a result of MMGW apparently. However, what I would like to ask is, how will we ever know we combated MMGW? If we have colder winters (or normal, depending on your stand point) the eco-nuts say it's a result of MMGW effecting this or that.

However, at some point we will have colder winters and summers as we created global cooling, how will we know?

In the mean time, hungry and cash starved scientists will claim anything you want to get that juicy grant and thier followers (The Great Pretender and Hypocrit and thier likes) follow blindly whatever they say.


Let me tell you a story of a man named Jesus. This dude was v cool, he preached peace and love, performed a few groovy magic tricks or miracles then was crucified for our sins.

Well, as it turns out, some people don't believe he existed but there is evidence and documentation to support that he did exist and did what was reported.

To me, it's all the same difference. Jesus, God, MMGW, Al Gore...somebody somewhere is kissing an ass of an ass.
12

Bibamus,

11/02/2009 08:03:33
I am with the good Doctor on this -= and always have been
13

Unimpressed one,

11/02/2009 08:11:58
"This dude was v cool, he preached peace and love, performed a few groovy magic tricks"

You been on weed Dave?

Once we have another decade of 'normal' weather, sensible opinions like this will become the norm and the warmists will find themselves in the minority and rightly ridiculed for their gullibility. Unfortuanately public money money is being wasted here and now bowing to this tripe.
14

sam the god,

11/02/2009 08:12:29
does this mean that we will get a tax rebate for all the money paid in error no i do not think so
15

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 08:20:02
It's an embarrassment listening to/reading the comments from that 'friends of the earth' chap.

He's barely rational and sounds like some extremist nut.

In contrast Dr Reay, who also disagreed with Dr Buckee, sounds rational and makes his points reasonably rather than descending into some extremist rant mode.
16

drunken proffet,

Tassy 11/02/2009 08:20:43
Well even with the most powerful computers invented, they still cannot forecast the weather. So it is doubtful if any scientist can forecast the future climate. I would believe that the Earth will endure and also a wide variety of its creatures. Whether the human race will survive is maybe debatable, He maybe has decided that the "dominion over others" was a bit too enthusiastic for His intended world.
17

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 11/02/2009 08:27:37
green is what the govs take us for,another way to fleece joe public of extra taxes
18

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 08:28:20
Unimpressed one

Nah mate, gave that up for lent......... ;-)
19

Euan,

Edinburgh 11/02/2009 08:34:20
It's about time someone like Dr. Buckee puts forward the proper facts and shows all these climate change believers that they are talking complete nonsense.

What is so annoying about the whole MMGW thing is that it has now been turned into a highly profitable business model.

As a result of this, all of us in developed countries are now being made to pay through the nose in the form of ludicrous 'green' taxes, all of which exist for the sole purpose of gaining 'green' votes and nothing else.

Just look at Edinburgh Council's plans to start charging drivers who own cars with large engines more money for their residential parking permits, this is a classic example of 'greenwash'.

It's about time the 'global warming' scam is exposed for what it really is - a money-making SCAM.


20

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 08:37:57
RBNR @19

Sheep and deer don't create as much methane? You do know they are ruminants? You do know that to replce every cow, you would need 5 sheep in order to sustain current food production (unless you want people to starve of course?).

You do know you would then have to travel the world and slaughter every bison, buffalo, moose, elk, deer, carrabu, elephant, wildebeast and every other plantr eating ruminant?

You're comment was spot on until your last bit.
21

Selgovae,

11/02/2009 08:40:15
Duncan McLaren is a sad case all right.

"He says those who refuse to believe in human-induced climate change are like people who refuse to believe in the theory of evolution."

He's right in a way. "Refusal to believe" can be seen as clinging to dogma. But there's a world of difference between "refusing to believe" and "finding it difficult to believe". Ask any Agnostic. But by saying that there's no uncertainty about man-made climate change he shows us his own dogmatic stance.

Of course, just because he's inflexible in his views doesn't mean those views are wrong. But like anyone who refuses to listen to the other side's position, he plays no useful part in any scientific enquiry.

#11 Dave
I'm interested to know what evidence there is apart from what is written in the bible that Jesus walked on water.
22

,

11/02/2009 08:47:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 08:52:27
Selgovae @22

You answered your own question. It was observed and recorded. They are the fundamentals of all scientific studies. The climate/weather was observed then recorded.
24

Padraig,

11/02/2009 09:00:05
Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Fiends of the Earth Scotland, says Dr Buckee's arguments are "nonsense".

This paid propagandist has, literally, nothing else to do all day than think up soundbytes to promote his "cause". Like the most voluble global warming advocates, he is no scientist, merely a PR man and his skills are in jumping up and down making a fuss about whatever he is paid to.

And he thinks too much credence is given to sceptics - "sceptic" being a word meaning "some one who is doubtful"? Just as so many actual scientists are!

His argument has nothing to do with scientific debate, there is absolutely no evidence of CO2 causing warming (or even cooling) of the climate. Conversely, there is evidence that CO2 levels increase or decrease FOLLOWING changes in average temperature.

Tough luck Duncan - you are being paid to back a loser - and people are seeing just how daft your reasoning is!
25

Padraig,

11/02/2009 09:03:08
Dave #24 said "The climate/weather was observed then recorded."

Yes, just so - but then people with an axe to grind (like this hireling, McLaren) attributed the movements to specious arguments that fitted their case, not the facts!
26

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 09:05:47
Padraig @26

Ta da! Nail, hit, head. It's all yours my good man, spot on!
27

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 11/02/2009 09:06:11
http://wattsupwiththat.com/
Like the UK, the USA is experiencing its second year of bitter winter temperatures which are breaking all historic records. The personal attacks and hysteria of eco-fascists like Duncan McLaren reveal how desperate they are beginning to feel as evidence mounts and mounts that the Earth is getting colder and colder.


New All-Time Low Temperature Recorded in Maine

"On the morning of January 16, as New England was under the grip of an arctic blast, an all-time low temperature of -50° Fahrenheit was recorded for Maine. It was recorded at 7:30 a.m. EST at a U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) stream gauge on the Big Black River near Depot Mountain in northwestern Aroostook County. The previous record, -48° Fahrenheit, was set in Van Buren, Maine almost 84 years earlier, on January 19, 1925."
28

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 11/02/2009 09:14:53
Same old sh!t posted above from morons who know nothing about GW.
I guess you bunch are in the "don't bother me with the facts i've made up my mind allready brigade"
Dave from Barra why aren't you on the IPCC giving your worldly views on GW, or are you to busy being a working class hero?
Imagine all those nasty scientists getting all that money to do f@ck all, terrible really, they should all get a real job.
29

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 09:19:44
29

Until you have something useful to contribute, why don't you fug off and pray to your messahia Al Gore?

Your last comment is spot on BTW, I will give you credit for that. The discredited IPCC is a waste of cash, like most scientists and possibly you....
30

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 11/02/2009 09:22:21
Far more powerful forces are in action than the "science" of AGW and that is vested interests, greed, plain old taxation revenue and lies.

McLaren and his ilk rely on AGW for a career. "Research" scientists are only too glad to dump accurate observation and method to jump on the bandwagon and get the next grant. Politicians and snake-oil salesmen like Al Gore are delighted to have this invented problem so they can tax and spend and get their noses deeper in the trough. The great and good in the RS and IPCC (now there's a self-fulfilling name) are only too ready to join in to achieve respectability and further their own existence.

Meanwhile those of us who might or might not be scientists are expected to swallow this stuff on pain of being labelled "deniers" or "denialists" rather in the same fashion as those of the wrong religion in the Inquisition period. Naturally we also have to pay in sometimes large sums to keep this rotten edifice of half-truth afloat.

So I say good on you Dr Buckee for having the courage of your own convictions and observations.
31

Phil C,

11/02/2009 09:23:03
Yes there are natural climate cycles, but their effects seem to be extremely accelerated at present, with melting ice caps and a warming planet. There also seem to be many Scotsman readers prepared to adopt the head in sand approach to global warming.

To do nothing about our pollution and waste would be the stupidest ever position taken by man. But someone needs to tell the Yanks, Chinese and Indians to cut their emmisions. Who's going to do that?
32

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:25:54
"CO2 concentration has increased in our atmosphere from 320 ppm in 1950's to 380 ppm today... that means that the CO2 in the 1950's was 0.0032% of the atmosphere and now it's 0.0038%."

The shortcomings in your understanding of arithmetic are surpassed by the shortcomings in your understanding of the science.
33

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 09:27:29
Yeah! Seanie is here. He will set us all straight!
34

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:36:01
Found those links yet Dave?

You said you would.
35

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 09:38:05
Got those links to prove you "passed university 3 times" yet?
36

Selgovae,

11/02/2009 09:53:42
#24 Dave

Good point. However, there is some doubt about the veracity of the observations, like with many scientific studies. In those cases, we usually try to repeat the experiment. A bit hard in this case. :-)
37

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 11/02/2009 09:54:37
Take a walk to the beach and see if the sea levels have changed any since you were a child. I think you will find that not much is different. Climate change is a myth perpetuated by those who can make money from it. Summers are still Summery and Winters are still wintery. It doesn't take a scientist to tell you that there's something a bit not right about all these theories however it does take an authoritive figure like a scientist or a government minister to perpetuate a lie in order to manipulate people...
38

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 09:55:31
Dr Jim Buckee claims that, "the warming climate over the past 100 years" is "based on the activity of the Sun."
"Solar activity can affect the cosmic rays that reach the Earth's atmosphere, and this in turn affects the climate, he says."

The "solar activity" referred to by Buckee is the sunspot count, since they do indeed effect the amount of cosmic rays reaching the earth's atmosphere.

If Jim Buckee's claim was correct then one would expect a correlation between solar activity and global average temperature for the last 100 years. So, I've just plotted both on a graph at www.woodfortrees.org. Monthly average global temperatures (HADCRUT3) are in red, and monthly sunspot numbers are in green, here:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/b7fh9p

(because the url was very long, I've put it into Tinyurl, and provided a safe preview url so you can see it is from woodfortrees, and therefore safe. Click on "Proceed to this site" in the preview window).

You can see that there is no significant correlation between temperature and sunspot numbers. Note: this is an informal illustration: formal proof would require statistical analysis. Buckee's claim is false.
39

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:56:50
http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/07_1.cfm

“The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.”
40

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:57:02
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=6229

"Our scientific understanding of climate change is sufficiently sound to make us highly confident that greenhouse gas emissions are causing global warming. Science moves forward by challenge and debate and this will continue. However, none of the current criticisms of climate science, nor the alternative explanations of global warming are well enough founded to make not taking any action the wise choice. The science clearly points to the need for nations to take urgent steps to cut greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere, as much and as fast as possible, to reduce the more severe aspects of climate change. We must also prepare for the impacts of climate change, some of which are already inevitable."
41

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:57:16
A Joint Science Academies’ statement;

http://www.icsu-africa.org/Resource_centre/Globalresponseclimatechange.pdf

"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. It is vital that all nations identify cost effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions."
42

BMeister,

11/02/2009 09:57:29
#20
'Just look at Edinburgh Council's plans to start charging drivers who own cars with large engines more money for their residential parking permits, this is a classic example of 'greenwash'.'

I'm sure that the fair-minded councillors will reduce the cost of permits for cars with smaller/more efficient engines by a corresponding amount so the income they receive is the same.

What's that you say, they're not?
43

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:57:32
The American Association for the Advancement of Science;

http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/climate_change/mtg_200702/aaas_climate_statement.pdf

"The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society."
44

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:57:45
A statement from The Royal Meteorological Society;

http://www.rmets.org/news/detail.php?ID=332

"The Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) of the Inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is unequivocal in its conclusion that climate change is happening and that humans are contributing significantly to these changes. The evidence, from not just one source but a number of different measurements, is now far greater and the tools we have to model climate change contain much more of our scientific knowledge within them. The world’s best climate scientists are telling us its time to do something about it."
45

seanie,

11/02/2009 09:58:25
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?tip=1&id=6230

"We know from looking at gases found trapped in cores of polar ice that the levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are now 35 per cent greater than they have been for at least the last 650,000 years. From the radioactivity and chemical composition of the gas we know that this is mainly due to the burning of fossil fuels, as well as the production of cement and the widespread burning of the world's forests. The increase in global temperature is consistent with what science tells us we should expect when the levels of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere increase in the way that they have."
46

John Cameron,

St Andrews 11/02/2009 10:02:24
This is another fine piece of objective journalism from the Scotsman on the subject of the Global Warming Delusion. Buckee is only stating what is widely believed by the majority of scientists. The idea that a process as complicated as climate change could be driven simply by industrial carbon is too silly for words and is only supported by scientists on the take. The Eco-fascist Duncan McLaren (who has spent the last 15 years on the rampage) is trotted out to cast doubt of Buckee's right to an opinion. But Buckee has a Ph.D. from Oxford in Astrophysics so he is more than competent to speak in this field. The person whose competence should be doubted is that ignoramus Al Gore and his farcical film. Buckee is perfectly justified in saying that the GWD has become a fundamentalist religion for the Greens. The whole topic has been spiritualized by the New Age loonies and lifted out of the sphere of rational debate.
47

seanie,

11/02/2009 10:02:24
Misleading argument 7: ’the climate is actually affected by cosmic rays’

http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?tip=1&id=6234

"However, observations of clouds and galactic cosmic rays show that, at most, the possible link between cosmic rays and clouds only produces a small effect. Even if cosmic rays were shown to have a more substantial impact, the level of solar activity has changed so little over the last few decades the process could not explain the recent rises in temperature that we have seen."

48

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 10:09:32
Now I have plotted average global monthly temperatures (red)for the last 100 years same against atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations (green)(from Mauna Loa - only since 1958). See here:

http://tinyurl.com/ce6jv2

(I've not bothered with the preview window this time).

This time the correlation is clear, though again a formal proof of correlation requires statistical analysis that I have not done.

Correlation, of course, does not prove causation, but it IS a necessary part of proving causation and if it is absent, as it is between global temperatures and sunspots, then any claim for causation, as Jim buckee's, falls flat on its face.
49

Andrah,

Embrugh 11/02/2009 10:18:38
47# Excellent post.
Man Made Global Warming has certainly become something akin to a religion, and has more to do with politics than science.

It will one day be studied not as a scientific event, but a psychological one. Global warming alarm is something rooted deep in human psychology - it reminds me of primitive man as he peered into the night sky and blamed the wondrous happenings of the universe on the Gods' approval or displeasure of his personal actions and those of his tribe.
What is at issue is that the highly complex and as yet little understood Earth climate system is not a simple laboratory and unfortunately there are too many factors guessed at in the modelling.

What can safely be said is that man made emissions of CO2 are not at present the main driver of climate.
50

Capital_Jim,

11/02/2009 10:25:27
There is no way human beings can change the climate. It is all about tax and control, look aat the people warning us about climate change - the government...
51

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 11/02/2009 10:37:12
Wooopee! Good for the prof! Now all the children following behind Pied Piper Gore can do an about turn with egg on their faces! At least he didn't succeed in taking us all into the cave in the mountain!
52

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 11/02/2009 10:40:12
After he has sorted the wheat from the chaff he should get moving on promoting population control!
53

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 10:46:18
RBNR

Ah, anecdotal evidence. Very good. In that case, I still stand by my statement (since I'm directly involved in the agri community and know that feeding cattle dry matter reduced "sloppy poos") and since you are involving non ruminant animals, I suggest you extend your dictatorship mass slaughtering to humans too.

You ain't winning this one old bean.
54

Tartan Viking,

11/02/2009 10:57:03
Surely it's the fault of Alec Salmond and the SNP? Everything else seems to be.
55

Troy Tempest,

under the sea 11/02/2009 10:59:57
Siloch I don't know why you bother, everyone on here has made up their minds already. There is no room for reason in this debate, just increasing polarisation.
56

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 11:29:09
#57 Troy Tempest

Well, of course, many of the contributors here show little interest in evidence and seem beyond the reach of reason, but I assume that others read these columns. When someone like Buckee makes dangerous claims that are not supported by any evidence, it is necessary to counter them. The twentieth century provided many examples of corrupt and deluded individuals who caused mayhem and destruction; the potential for AGW deniers to do the same should not be underestimated.
57

Jock Stewart,

Dalgety Bay, Fife 11/02/2009 11:35:42
I think we should all take a moment to stand back from the debate and think of the real human issues that are presented here. Poor Jenny Haworth has had a torrid time of it this year, trying to pump AGW propaganda of which the number of viable stories is rapidly drying up. I know that being a journalist is tough these days and we should give her some credit for actually finding something to write about.

Ala Slioch I have created a graph of the number of AGW stories against ambient air temperature and found a clear link between the two. When it is warmer outside we get more articles and when it is colder we get less. Therefore, if we find Jenny a nice job in another field the temperatures will decrease. She has already shown a talent for fiction.

Any chance we could have a really good story leading up to the easter weekend? I could do with some nice weather to take my motorcycle out for a run.
58

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 12:17:08
Slioch wrote:
>>The twentieth century provided many examples of corrupt and deluded individuals who caused mayhem and destruction; the potential for AGW deniers to do the same should not be underestimated.<<

Its frightening the way extremists want to criminalise those who don't hold their belief system.

>>One Australian columnist has proposed outlawing ‘climate change denial’. ‘David Irving is under arrest in Austria for Holocaust denial’, she wrote. ‘Perhaps there is a case for making climate change denial an offence. It is a crime against humanity, after all.’

Others have suggested that climate change deniers should be put on trial in the future, Nuremberg-style, and made to account for their attempts to cover up the ‘global warming…Holocaust’<<

The recent Manhattan declaration shows that there is no scientific consensus as has been claimed.

I've no problem with people believing in MMGW. I have a problem when such individuals become crazed and start shouting down, even subtly or not so subtly, threatening those who are skeptical.

Do these individuals even know why respected scientists have problems with MMGW?

Or do such individuals just jump and down frothing at the mouth talking about 'deniers'?
59

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 12:24:05
The problem for the global warmers is that there is a limit to the number of times you can cry wolf without anything happening before people cotton on that it's a load of rubbish.

It's not even scientific. The basis of science is a "falsifiable hypothesis", hypothesis which can be shown to be false by the data.

How can "mankind is warming the globe" ever be proven false? It can't so it basically isn't science but some kind of new pagan religion with their "fiery hell of global warming" and even medieval style indulgences in the form of carbon credits.


The only testable SCIENTIFIC claim made was in 2001 when the IPCC said the world would warm by between 1.4 to 5.8C per century since when it has been cooling at a rate of -1.3C/century.

Even the Met Office which make yearly predictions of global temperature have got the prediction too high 9 times out of 9!! The chances of that happening are 1 in 512 which is as good as saying the chance of the Met Office model being right is less than 1%.

There is abosolutely no basis to the idea of manmade global warming except a lot of hysteria by people who ought to know better and the sooner it stops and we can look at the real problems we have to face like the global recession the better.
60

Calum Crubag,

11/02/2009 12:42:14
Who can be sure - but let's play safe.

If this guy is wrong and we continue as we are, we're doomed.

If he is right and global warming is happening naturally then is it such a big price to pay to cut down on car use, factory pollution and recycle more. Above all else, it's more economic to cut down on waste.

Im not a scientist but would prefer to go with the majority who think we ARE causing it. Where would a consipiracy come from? The huge oil companies and rich nations? Not likely.
61

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 12:47:08
#62 Isonomia

Well, at least you have accepted that the test of an hypothesis is that it be potentially falsifiable rather than demanding that it be proven. The latter is impossible but the former is eminently feasible. That CO2 and other anthropogenic greenhouse gases are causing a disequilibrium in the Earth's heat balance and thereby causing warming could be falsified by a number of lines of evidence:

One would be what Jim Buckee is trying to do - to find an alternative explanation to explain the warming. Unfortunately for him there is very little evidence tosupport his claim.

Another way of falsifying AGW would be if a statistically significant fall in global temperatures occurred whilst GHGs were continuing to rise. This, admittedly, would require several years of data to provide reliable results, but what Isonomia seems incapable of understanding is that, as yet, there is NO - absolutely NO - statistically significant evidence that this is occurring.

Isonomia's claim that AGW is non-falsifiable (and therefore non-scientific) is utter nonsense. What is true is that strenuous efforts over several years to falsify it, many based on wishful thinking, self-interest and misunderstandings of basic science, have completely failed.
62

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 13:00:39
Slioch

What were your thoughts when we had that ice ace scare which also had scientific "fact" behind it during the 70's?

Did you believe that too?
63

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:06:35
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0477/89/9/pdf/i1520-0477-89-9-1325.pdf

"There was no scientific consensus in the 1970s that the Earth was headed into an imminent ice age. Indeed, the possibility of anthropogenic warming dominated the peer-reviewed literature even then."
64

traprain,

11/02/2009 13:07:00
As the wheels come off the bandwagon all those with a vested interest in it's existence become increasing frenetic in defence of the global warming myth.
All recognised global temperature monitors show higher temperatures 10 years and 20 years ago and lower temperatures 30 and 40 years ago. When charlatan James Hansen made his apocryphal presentation to congress in 1988 he certainly gave no inkling that temperatures 20 years in the future would unchanged or lower.
65

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:07:52
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11643

Climate myths: They predicted global cooling in the 1970s

"A survey of the scientific literature has found that between 1965 and 1979, 44 scientific papers predicted warming, 20 were neutral and just 7 predicted cooling. So while predictions of cooling got more media attention, the majority of scientists were predicting warming even then."
66

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 13:07:59
#63"If he is right and global warming is happening naturally then is it such a big price to pay to cut down on car use, factory pollution and recycle more. Above all else, it's more economic to cut down on waste."

The problem with the myth of global warming is not that we don't have to cut down on our consumption of global resources, it is that the global warmers keep telling us "there are so many resources in the world that we are going to hellfire and damnation unless we VOLUNTARILY CUT DOWN".

What they are saying is that "we have a choice", we can have a bit of nice warming, or we can go without our motor cars, and guess which most people have chosen?

The real fact that the global warmers try to hide is that the two key essential to our modern economy: oil and gas, are fast running out. We will NOT HAVE A CHOICE when they run out. REDUCING OIL AND GAS IS NOT AN OPTION WE CAN CHOOSE TO DO WHEN WE FEEL LIKE IT. It is not an option like going for a swim, it is something that will be forced on us like a tsunami that will overwhelm our civilisation.

We do have a choice. We can listen to the nonsense of the global warmers who evangelise their religion of "global warming hellfire", or we can take a long hard look at where we are going to get the basic resources our western economy needs to sustain itself this century.
67

,

11/02/2009 13:11:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
68

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:14:17
"All recognised global temperature monitors show higher temperatures 10 years and 20 years ago and lower temperatures 30 and 40 years ago."

Nonsense.

The scope for natural variability, year to year, is far greater than the underlying warming trend. So deriving trends across short periods is essentially meaningless; there is too much noise in the data.

Even five year averages aren't necessarily going to show consistent warming. Natural events such as a La Nina or a major volcanic eruption could result in a significant temporary cooling that drives the average down. But even that would not be inconsistent with an underlying warming trend, because such effects are temporary.

The simplest way to filter out the 'noise' of natural variation and identify any trend is to average out temperatures in some way. There are various ways to do it, with varying degrees of complexity, but it's a perfectly straightforward and entirely valid way of interpreting the data that itself doesn't 'promote' any particular result. It just filters out the noise.

So, knowing that, look at the HADCRU and GISS graphs showing 'smoothed' or averaged temperatures.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/gtc2007.pdf

In both cases, is the average temperature (as represented by the smoothed average) higher now than ten years ago?

Yes it is. Significantly.


69

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:14:55
The HADCRU anolmalies;

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt

The anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.296
1999-2003: + 0.382
2004-2008: + 0.416

So the most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.
70

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:15:16
The GISS anomalies;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

The anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.38
1999-2003: + 0.45
2004-2008: + 0.53

Again the most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.
71

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:15:33
The NASA/GISS data for global temperatures;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/ta...LB.Ts+dSST.txt

The ten hottest years worldwide since 1880 were in descending order:

2005, 2007, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2004, 2001, 2008, 1997.

So of the ten hottest years on record, eight have occurred in the last ten years and all have occurred within the last 12.
72

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:15:48
The HADCRU data;

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt

The ten hottest years worldwide since 1850 were in descending order:

1998, 2005, 2003, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2001, 2007, 2008, 1997.

So of the ten hottest years on record, eight have occurred in the last ten years and all have occurred within the last 12.
73

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:16:03
Average temperature has risen over the last decade. The last five years have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that. The years this century are considerably warmer than any equivalent period in the instrumental temperature records.
74

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:18:01
If you take the GISS anomolies and average them over five year periods for the last 40 years what do you get?

1969-1973: + 0.03
1974-1978: - 0.03
1979-1983: + 0.17
1984-1988: + 0.17
1989-1993: + 0.24
1994-1998: + 0.38
1999-2003: + 0.45
2004-2008: + 0.53
75

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:18:56
Maybe you don’t trust the surface temperature records at all. Maybe you’d prefer to rely on satllites;

http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org…ature-records/

“Four different groups produce temperature records that attempt to compile a single global mean surface temperature: NASA’s GISStemp, the Hadley Center’s HadCRU, Remote Sensing Systems’ RSS,and the University of Alabama, Huntsville’s UAH.”

“Despite differences in calculation criteria and a host of technical problems that have plagued the satellite-based records in the past, all four temperature records now show a remarkable degree of agreement. No single temperature record exhibits a significant or consistent warming bias relative to the others.”

“…all four temperature series align remarkably well when normalized on the same baseline period. GISS and HadCRU both show a warming trend of 0.16 degrees C per decade from 1979 to February 2008. RSS shows a warming trend of 0.18 per decade over the same period, while UAH shows a warming trend of 0.14.”
76

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:19:14
Maybe you’d like to see a visual representation of the four temperature series.

If you look here…

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/whats-up-with-that/

…you’ll find an interesting piece that is also rather revealing about the competence of one of the poster boys of denialist blogging.

It includes a graph with the records normalised on the same baseline;

http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/4way.jpg
77

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:19:31
How about the four series displayed as twelve month moving averages?

http://cce.890m.com/temp-compare.jpg
78

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:19:43
The four principal temperature records in use match each other pretty well. The surface records HADCRU & GISS, going back to 1850 and 1880 respectively, are compiled differently vary on detail (such as which particular year is the warmest) but show similar warming trends. The Satellite records, UAH & RSS, only date from 1979 but correlate closely with the surface record. That four differing records, compiled by different methods, all correlate well is good evidence that the data is robust.
79

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 13:25:37
#71 Seanie: "The simplest way to filter out the 'noise' of natural variation and identify any trend is to average out temperatures in some way. There are various ways to do it, with varying degrees of complexity, but it's a perfectly straightforward and entirely valid way of interpreting the data that itself doesn't 'promote' any particular result. It just filters out the noise."

That is true for some sorts of noise and not others. The kind of noise which you seem to have in mind is known as "white noise". In many physical processes the actual noise is very different and tends toward what is known as "pink" noise (I'm not joking!) in which the noise level increases the lower the frequency or longer the period.

If you use a very simplistic model, then sure the global temperature signal looks like a rising curve. If however you are used to analysing noise from frequency dependant sources, then you will recognise that the rising curve is also just noise in the system.

The characteristic which gives this away is the way the small ten-yearly peaks are smaller than the 30 year during peaks/dips, and the longer century long peaks are larger still (and presumably the 10,000 peaks we call ice ages are part of the same noise-profile where the noise content of longer periods is larger than the smaller short-term decadal noise).

Technically, the way to state this is that "there is no way to ditermine with any certainty whether the temperature signal contains 'external forcing' or is purely noise" or another way to put it is that "it is entirely consistent with a being only natural".
80

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:28:23
HADCRU data with smoothed anomaly;

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/gtc2008.csv

The anomalies going back to 1988.

1988 - 0.180
1989 - 0.103
1990 - 0.254
1991 - 0.212
1992 - 0.061
1993 - 0.105
1994 - 0.171
1995 - 0.275
1996 - 0.137
1997 - 0.351
1998 - 0.546
1999 - 0.296
2000 - 0.27
2001 - 0.409
2002 - 0.464
2003 - 0.473
2004 - 0.447
2005 - 0.482
2006 - 0.422
2007 - 0.403
2008 - 0.325
81

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 13:30:48
Seanie: I think you'll find that the trend this century is -0.13C/decade and that trend is accelerating!
82

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:36:00
The smoothed going back to 1988.

1988 - 0.122
1989 - 0.136
1990 - 0.149
1991 - 0.162
1992 - 0.177
1993 - 0.194
1994 - 0.215
1995 - 0.24
1996 - 0.267
1997 - 0.295
1998 - 0.323
1999 - 0.348
2000 - 0.37
2001 - 0.389
2002 - 0.403
2003 - 0.413
2004 - 0.419
2005 - 0.42
2006 - 0.419
2007 - 0.415
2008 - 0.411






















83

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:37:23
The last five years have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that.

When average temperatures go up, that's called warming.
84

traprain,

11/02/2009 13:37:35
81 seanie
Obviously Slioch is busy compiling his graphs for presentation to IPCC, after suitable peer revue of course, and delegated a response to his oil rag. Instead of regurgitating your usual cherry picked, stuck and paste, statistics why not look at the facts in graphical form from a recognised scientific source.
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/HANSEN_AND_CONGRESS.jpg
85

seanie,

11/02/2009 13:43:44
Hansen wasn't predicting the future temperature of individual years twenty years in advance. He was predicting trends based on different scenarios. And in that he wasn't too far off.
86

traprain,

11/02/2009 13:54:02
James Hansen presentation to Congress made 1988 forecast 2008 temperature of 15°C. .
Hadcrut Global mean temperature.
Jan 68 13.7°C
78 14.0°C
88 14.4°C
98 14.5°C
08 14.0°C
http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcrut3/diagnostics/global/nh%2Bsh/monthly
87

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 13:56:10
#86 "The last five years have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that."

Seanie, have you ever noticed the way when you start going downhill, if you look back, you'll see the top of the hill behind you.

Of course the last five years have been warm, what do you expect before a period of natural cooling.

And guess what?

The five years before it starts getting warmer again will be record lows! But no doubt you'll be there telling the world that "global cooling is the biggest threat facing .... the few people who care because all the oil and gas you promised would never run out DID!
88

PeterPete,

11/02/2009 13:57:39
The Holocaust never happened either, man never went to the moon etc etc etc

89

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 14:00:27
And "if we do nothing ... we have so much oil and gas the world will end up in a fiery hell" .... just tell that to the oil companies trying to find oil for next decade let alone next century!
90

seanie,

11/02/2009 14:02:29
So now you think Hansen was trying to predict the temperature of individual months twenty years in advance?

ROFLMAO
91

traprain,

11/02/2009 14:04:12
88seanie,
"Hansen wasn't predicting the future temperature of individual years twenty years in advance."
Don't be pathetic twenty years is certainly sufficient in global warmers eyes to signify a trend. You may not like it but by no means can a substantially unchanged temperature over 20 years equate to a "tipping point" or "accelerated" or "run away" global warming that we are fed daily by the global warming brigade.
92

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 14:06:28
#83 Seanie

You made a typo in #83, Seanie - #83 should have been "HADCRU data with unsmoothed anomaly". As you correctly state in #85, those are the smoothed values.

# DfB asked, "What were your thoughts when we had that ice ace scare...during the 70's"

Much the same as my thoughts nowadays about the Yellowstone supervolcano. Namely, as far as I can remember, I was aware in the 1970's that interglacial (warm) periods had generally lasted about ten thousand years during the previous half million years or so of the ice-age, and our present interglacial had lasted about ten thousand years. Therefore, wondering about the next glaciation was natural, but I knew of no evidence to suggest it was imminent.
Similarly, with the Yellowstone supervolcano: previous eruptions have occurred at 2,100,000 and 1,300,000 and 640,000 years, which suggests another one may be on the way, but there is no evidence on the ground to indicate that it is.
There is another similarity between the "imminent ice age" and the Supervolcano: in neither case was/is there any suggestion that we could do anything to stop it if it was on it's way.

So, there are two major differences between AGW and 1970s ice age: 1. for AGW there is masses of evidence and 2. for AGW we CAN do something to make it less catastrophic than otherwise.

That is why I stated in #58 that there is potential for AGW deniers to cause huge damage by stymieing efforts to combat the problem. We need to get serious about tackling it: if we do we have a chance of leaving our descendants a planet worth living on .
93

seanie,

11/02/2009 14:06:29
"Of course the last five years have been warm, what do you expect before a period of natural cooling."

One minute it's temperatures have been cooling, next it's they're about to be cooling; could you fruitcakes hold a conference or something and get your story straight?

Maybe somewhere nice.

Like Manhattan.
94

traprain,

11/02/2009 14:08:26
I forgot the discredited Munn's "hockey stick" presented by Hansen just read off the y axis 2008...15°C.
95

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 14:14:19
#94 traprain

Are you incapable of understanding data trapain?

Seanie has provided you with smoothed average global temperatures from 1988 to the present in #85. From that you can see that the smoothed value (temperature anomaly compared to average for 1961-1990) for:
1988 was +0.122C
2008 was +0.411C

which is an increase of 0.289C. Yet you continue prattling on about "unchanged temperature over 20 years". Don't be so absurd.
96

,

11/02/2009 14:20:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Alexander,

Edinburgh 11/02/2009 14:25:41
#96
"Yet you continue prattling on about "unchanged temperature over 20 years"

Yes I noticed that, obviously Traprain made a mistake 1978...14.0 and 2008...14.0 that should have been 30 years.
30 years with no change in temperature all negated by a bit of fiddling with the numbers...sorry "smoothing". Are you real?
98

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 14:27:59
#87 Trapain

Since you link us to the UAH global temperatures in your #87, here they are with the linear trend superimposed (green line0 that the idiots at icecap somehow forgot to include:

http://tinyurl.com/dfzkvj

If you look up the data you will find that it gives a warming trend of 0.019 deg Celsius per year.

Perhaps you could tell us what Hansen's predicted trend was?
99

Hexy,

Colorado USA 11/02/2009 14:43:46
Looking through that article by Jenny Haworth, I saw plenty of ad hominen attacks against Dr. Bucky, but only one attempt to use actual scientific evidence. And in that one case, the evidence used was incorrect. David Reay said that if Bucky's thesis was correct, the Earth should have been cooling in the last ten or twenty years, when in fact it's been warming. Except that it's not. All four earth temperature measurement systems indicate a clear downward trend in the last ten years, and I think we're now closing in on having wiped out all the warming in the last twenty. This trend is utterly inconsistent with CO2 as the primary driver of climate change. (Yes, I know that to the religious MMGW nutcases, nothing is inconsistent with MMGW. The earth could enter a new ice age and they'd find that consistent with MMGW.) Note: Only on this blog, and from Seanie, have I seen someone try to cook books sufficiently to make it look like things have warmed in the last ten years. I'm not a mathemetician or statistician so am not the right guy to debate the details. But the fact that I've never seen ANYONE try to refute what's happened in the last ten years other than Seanie (and maybe Hansen), I think is significant.

Bottom line: I'm not too impressed with the author, who made it look like Bucky is some weirdo, fringe contrarian. 31,000 scientists, including the past president of the World Federation of Scientists, agree with him. (www.petitionproject.org). David Reay, Duncan McLaren, and apparently Jenny Haworth are now the fringe deniers, unwilling to acknowledge the empirical evidence.
100

broadgait,

gullane 11/02/2009 14:51:48
1978.....Atmospheric CO2...335PPMV......Temp...14.0
2008.....Atmospheric CO2...385PPMV......Temp...14.0

A 15% increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide and a 0% change in temperature! Mmmm....!
101

David Evans,

Peterlee 11/02/2009 14:52:13
Ever tried to cool soup?

Blowing on it is far more effective than allowing just convection or radiation to do the job.

Same with electronics, how many fans does your computer use to cool it?

Radiative losses even at quite high temperatures are relatively insignificant when compared with conduction & convection.

So NO AGW is a fraud.

David.
102

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 11/02/2009 15:20:49
Slioch and seanie

Symantics asides, what do you both think we all should do to reverse MMGW to create MMGlobal cooling (that is your objective, isn't it? Can't be stasis, has to be one or other).

Interested to hear what groovy things we can do to create the next ice age.
103

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 15:25:21
Seanie says: "One minute it's temperatures have been cooling, next it's they're about to be cooling; could you fruitcakes hold a conference or something and get your story straight?"

Seanie, let me explain. When you walk up a hill, you get higher and higher. When you get to the top of the hill, the path is downwards.

Note: at the top of the hill the path goes down!!! Remember that fact ... at the top of the hill the paths go down.

Now think of global temperature as being like that hill. The last few years we have been been crossing the top of the hill and are now going down.

You say: "how can we be going downhill when we are so high", if you can't understand that then perhaps you need to go walk to the top of a very high hill and stay there until you can work it out for yourself ... on until someone takes pity on you and rescues you!
104

John Peter,

Airdrie 11/02/2009 15:30:40
Considering that the earth is over 6 billion years old I am amazed at Seanie's persistent use of temperatures from 1880 to today. This is but a fraction of the life of mother earth. How can you build a theory of AGW on the basis of that and Dr. Mann's socalled "hockeystick" proposition that has been disputed over and over again? The fact is that it will become more and more difficult to persuade us ordinary people to cough up billions of dollars/Pounds/Euros on a proposition built on this hockeystick and temperatures recorded over the last 130 years only. The very idea that I for one would consider that temperatures on earth remained "constant" in best Dr Mann mode until the industrial age started to add to CO2 is absurd. The AGW supporters are avoiding investigating climate temperatures 1000 years ago for a start when the Vikings flourished on Greenland until ice chased them away around 1450 etc.

Since the science is "settled" on AGW, why do we not sack all these scientists that continue to get government grants to prove over again something we are not allowed to challenge? Why were our own Met Office allowed to spend another £32 million on a new computer that spews out as much CO2 as (I think) 2400 houses?

I for one remain unconvinced and prefer to look at further evidence. At present more and more are swinging towards being maligned "sceptics".
105

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 15:32:29
#105: "Same with electronics, how many fans does your computer use to cool it?"

David, Finally someone talking a bit of sense.

You know it's a fact that if you make the space in your double glazing too wide it actually makes it less efficient because it allows convective currents to flow which dramatically increase the heat loss.

Trying to explain to some people that we don't understand how CO2 may affect the atmosphere, and that it could just as equally increase the convective currents as reduce the radiative ones is a complete nightmare because so few of the global warmers seem to have the first clue about what they are talking about.
106

seanie,

11/02/2009 15:45:53
This really shouldn't be difficult to grasp.

The natural scope for variation is far greater than the underlying warming trend, so finding significance in comparing individual months separated by decades is basically stupid. Also identifying trends over short periods is fraught with difficulties since so much depends on the start and end point. Five year averages are a bit rough and ready but they're less sensitive to such noise.

Try it yourself. The data's been posted, all you need is a calculator or a bit or paper and a pencil. It's perfectly easy.

You'll find that the most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that, which in turn was warmer than the period before that.

The smoothed anomolies of HADCRU & GISS are more complex calculations but again there's nothing mystrious or underhand about smoothed averages. They're perfectly standard mnad acceptable means of filtering out 'noise' and don't promote any particular trend. They just make any trend, or absence of one, easier to discern.

And both HADCRU & GISS, which correlate well with the satellite data, show that average temperature is higher now than ten years ago.







107

BMeister,

11/02/2009 15:52:03
#105 David Evans

Ever tried to cool a roast chicken wrapped in tinfoil?

Radiative losses are relatively insignificant when compared with conduction & convection losses.

The atmosphere is not a layer of tinfoil but does trap an important proportion of heat in, part of the reason the moon at the same distance from the sun is cold and we are not. Thus AGW is not a fraud using this piece of reasoning.

This argument seems to be polarised to an

'it's man's fault'
'oh no it's not'
'oh yes it is'
'oh no it's not'
'oh yes it is'

type of discussion.

I think the evidence is clear that different gases/particulates have different effects on the atmosphere and that the ones man produces trap heat. What is wrong is to then say that this is the only or even the most important factor in climate change and to dismiss all others as being 'denialist' arguments and claim that this is the same as creatonism vs Darwinism.

To do so (from either end of the spectrum) is narrow-minded and a poor way of debating your point.

There are merits in most of the arguments either way but reading the above it seems that there is only an I'm right, you're wrong viewpoint.

Bullocks (which produce very runny pats and presumably therefore a lot of CO2)
108

seanie,

11/02/2009 15:56:04
A better explanation can be found here;

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/12/31/stupid-is-as-stupid-does/


109

Euan,

Edinburgh 11/02/2009 16:06:05
#20, BMeister

'I'm sure that the fair-minded councillors will reduce the cost of permits for cars with smaller/more efficient engines by a corresponding amount so the income they receive is the same.

What's that you say, they're not?'

That's right, they're not.

As a result of the increase in charges for larger-engined cars and decrease for smaller ones, the council are forecasting they will lost £50,000.

Check your facts first before commenting.
110

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 16:07:49
Seanie, will you please stop going off the plot and trying to convince people there was a warm period at the end of the last century. That is a battle I helped win almost a decade ago and you don't seem to have changed your tune at all since then.

The question we is: "is the temperature signal one of normal natural variation in the climate or due to manmade warming".

I fail to see how saying: "it's warm" proves anything. It's been cold for the last few days - does that prove we are entering a cooling period? NO!!

The cooler period coincided with the Israeli election, does that prove israeli elections make us all cold (well it does make me cold ... but NO!!!!)

So how does a period of warm which is indistinguishable from all the other warmer and cooler periods which we have records prove it is manmade?

HADCRUT clearly shows significant variation in the temperature signal with increasing variation for longer period variations. That is to say, decadal swings are around 0.1C, 30year swings are around 0.3 so it is any wonder that the current and apparently natural century long swing should be around the 0.5C mark.

And that is born out by the central England temperature record which clearly shows the current period is far from abnormal in terms of swings from the long term trend - a trend that has been there since the 1600s well before CO2 levels started increasing.

There is not the slightest bit of evidence to link CO2 with manmade warming. The only scientifically testable hypothesis has been the IPCC prediction of warming of 1.4-5.8C/century in 2001 since when the earth has cooled by an average of -1.3C/century.

Where is the evidence to show mankind is heating the globe?
111

seanie,

11/02/2009 16:17:06
A warm period at the end of last century? Only in copmparison to the years proceeding it. The end of last century was cooler then the current one so far.
112

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 16:33:11
Seanie, come on you know that the all time highest temperature recorded was in 1998 at 0.55C above the 1960-91 average.

The temperatures this century so far are:-

2001: 0.41
2002: 0.46
2003: 0.47
2004: 0.45
2005: 0.48
2006: 0.42
2007: 0.40
2003: 0.33

Which gives an average trend of -0.13C/decade.

The basic fact you can't stomach cause it doesn't fit your religion is that whilst there was a warming period at the end of the last century, we are now in a cooling period, and the rate of cooling is accelerating.
113

BMeister,

11/02/2009 16:35:34
#113 Euan
Fair point well made. Based on the current permits there is a loss. However, excuse my cynicism here, but I am sure they have factored this in to their projections as well as the increased controlled zone parking charges, the doubling of the cost of the residential permit for a second car and the huge recent extensions of the areas covered by controlled zones in tjhe last couple of years.
114

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 16:46:20
There seems little point in continuing: Seanie and I have posted data from reputable sources that together indubitably shows, that:

1. the global average temperature trend in recent decades has been and continues to be upwards when the annual "noise" is removed. This can be done simply by taking five year averages, or in a rather more complex manner by using a 21 point binomial filter, as used by HADCRU. Data from both methods is shown above.

2. there is no significant correlation between this temperature trend and sunspot counts, as would be required by Jim Buckee's claim.

3. there is a correlation between the rise in temperature and the continuing rise in CO2 concentration (though no attempt is made here to quantify that correlation).

The result? A steam of denial, obfuscation, straw-men arguments, and, frankly, lies.

The problem is this:
1.a scientifically illiterate and innumerate population,
2.wedded to a culture of consumerism,

This population is confronted with a problem that:
1. requires a fairly sophisticated understanding of the methods of science and the mathematical treatment of data.
2. requires a cultural change away from laissez faire consumerism.

The result is evident above.
115

traprain,

11/02/2009 16:50:12
104 broadgait
"A 15% increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide and a 0% change in temperature! Mmmm....!"

The 15% increase in CO2 would cause a 1°C increase in temperature. If we are to believe the global warming brigade all of that has been more than disguised over a thirty year period by inaccuracies in the two temperature readings. Presumably they are daft enough to think that the errors in 1978 were all on the high side while all errors in the 2008 figure were on the low side. Stretching credibility is no problem for the global warming fraternity in pursuit of "research" funds.
http://www.pewclimate.org/global-warming-basics/facts_and_figures/temp
116

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 16:57:17
Just for information, I've calculated the average
acceleration in the cooling trend this century and it is -0.024C/yr2 or to put that another way, if this century started cooling at -0.12C/decade, if the acceleration continues at the same rate then in ten years time it will be cooling at a rate of -0.36C/decade.
117

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 17:01:43
#106 Dave From Barra

We stand no chance of achieving global cooling, even if that were desirable, which it isn't. The goal is to achieve a global climate not dissimilar to the one our developing civilisation has enjoyed for the last 10,000 years. The most optimistic goal would be for average global temperatures not to exceed 2C above average twentieth century levels. The last time temperatures were about that level (perhaps slightly warmer) was in the last interglacial, The Eeemian, 125,000 years ago, when sea levels were 4-6 metres higher than at present.

There is no reason why a system cannot have a fairly stable temperature: all it requires is that the heat entering the system equals the heat leaving it. That has been approximately (not precisely) the case for the last 10,000 years.It is no longer the case because of the addition of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere by human actions. That is the problem, and no amount of denial will make it go away.
118

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 17:02:22
#118 - Slioch: "The problem is this:
1.a scientifically illiterate and innumerate population,
2.wedded to a culture of consumerism,"

Yes, and a bunch of global warmers who keep telling people: "you have a choice, burn all the oil and gas you like and get a bit of nice whether .... or .... stop driving anywhere, stop having goods in the shops, stop, basically just stop".

And guess which people have chosen? Yes sure, the population will buy a few carbon credits like the medieval rich bought a few indulgences from the pope to salve their conscience, but basically nothing is going to change because:

THEY HAVE A CHOICE!

And that is the big lie of the global warmers. There is no choice, resources will run out and when they run out it will be like a tsunami flowing over our western civilisation and people will say: "I thought we had a choice?"
119

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 17:06:14
#121 contd.

Sorry, meant to add that to achieve that goal of not more than 2C increase in temperature we need to get CO2 levels back down to 350ppmv*. They are at present at 387ppmv, and climbing rapidly.

* see: "Target Atmospheric CO2: Where Should Humanity Aim?" Hansen et al 2008

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/TargetCO2_20080407.pdf
120

Richard Lionheart,

11/02/2009 17:10:02
Carbon trading is the top income earner at the moment. As it is pushed by all Governments across the World( with a few exceptions) you will not even need to be humiliated in front of a Government Select Committee when it is all shown to be the biggest rip off hoax in the World’s history.

Al Gore’s gravy train has really only arrived at the platform and he has already made billions of dollars out of this already
121

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 17:13:04
#122 Isonomia
"you have a choice, burn all the oil and gas you like and get a bit of nice whether .... or .... stop driving anywhere, stop having goods in the shops, stop, basically just stop".

Another ridiculous straw-man argument. No-one is saying that. As for there not being sufficient fossil fuels left to cause catastrophic damage to the climate: that is untrue, particularly with respect to coal, of which there are large quantities left.

But you are correct to point out that we would still have a problem with fossil fuel supplies (particularly oil and gas) even if climate change did not exist. Unfortunately it does. That makes two problems.
122

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 17:15:45
Slioch, Seanie, etc.

Just as an aside, given the passion of people here, if there is anyone who feels they could put their case in writing, the Lenzie village website lenzie.org.uk is always willing to publish articles of a controversial nature on most subject.
123

BMeister,

11/02/2009 17:22:10
#118 Slioch
You are confusing correllation and causation. You state:

'1. the global average temperature trend in recent decades has been and continues to be upwards

3. there is a correlation between the rise in temperature and the continuing rise in CO2 concentration'

However, even assuming these statements are correct, 3 is not caused by 1.

We might as well say:
1. The global average temperature trend in recent decades has been and continues to be upwards.

2. The average length of skirts worn by women in Western society in recent decades has decreased from ankle length in Victorian times to above the knee now.

It's fairly obvious that warmer temperatures have not caused shorter skirts or vice versa (although there may be links - industrial revolution/sexual emancipation etc.) There is no causal relationship between the two and merely having one does not absolutely cause the other.

I am not saying that your 2 arguments are not linked but that if this your evidence then is not enough.

Before you accuse others of being 'scientifically illiterate and innumerate' then do not make the same mistake yourself.


124

seanie,

11/02/2009 17:22:23
1998 was certainly a hot year, possibly the hottest on record although 2005 is also a contender. But natural variation exceeds the underlying warming trend and 1998 was one ot the strongest El Nino years on record. Drawing inferences from 1998 as you starting point is outrageous cherry picking.

And whilst the end of the last century war warm period in relation to the years preceeding it, the period was cooler than recent years.

The average temperature of the last five years if higher than the last five years of the last century.
125

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 17:25:31
Slioch,

"Another ridiculous straw-man argument. No-one is saying that. As for there not being sufficient fossil fuels left to cause catastrophic damage to the climate: that is untrue, particularly with respect to coal, of which there are large quantities left."

Yes and most of that coal is oilshale which cannot be enerconically extracted (less energy out than in). To be honest, I don't know why I bother. The best estimates I've seen suggest we will be running out of oil and gas by the time this recession is finished, which basically means we will not come out of recession.

The main transport fuel will have gone, leaving us little realistic choice but to hydrolise coal to create oil like they did in South Africa during the apartheid era.

With gas gone, we will convert back to town gas, which will see a massive hike in prices, but with all the world facing the same problem the price of coal worldwide will hit the roof, countries will start arguing about energy supplies, tempers will get heated, and then there will be some shooting of some archduke somewhere and I'll wish I had built a nuclear bunker instead of wasting my time here.

The modern world is literally the age of oil, when oil and gas goes, it is not the end of our energy supplies, but it is the end of the essential oil that kept our civilisation going. We won't fade overnight, we will have enough coal to keep us going for at least 60 years at our current rates of consumption, but well within that 60years the failing economy of the west will make this recession look like a party!
126

Geomac 1,

Scotland 11/02/2009 17:26:25
At LONG LONG last the Scotsman has published and article which challenges the anthropogenic global warming theory. Credit where it's due Jenny BUT you have still wheeled your ecomantalist buddies out to pooh pooh this position / viewpoint. But still, a little progress!!
The fact that this will cut off funds to the fanatics will cause a real stushie but it's long past time for the thoery of AGW to be challenged forcefully before we spend a King's ransome for little or no benefit.
127

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 17:29:48
#50 Bmeister

And before you throw accusations around about what I have said Bmeister, at least do me the courtesy of reading what I have said. In #50 above I stated:

"Correlation, of course, does not prove causation, but it IS a necessary part of proving causation and if it is absent, as it is between global temperatures and sunspots, then any claim for causation, as Jim buckee's, falls flat on its face."

Am I supposed to repeat myself several times over in the same thread?
128

Hexy,

11/02/2009 17:30:19
Slioch, you are using the mother of all straw-man arguments by referring to "climate change" as the issue. No one debates that climates change. No one can name a period of time in Earth's history when the climate wasn't changing in one direction or the other. Stick to the key argument here: the utter lack of any observational evidence that implicates CO2 as the primary driver of climate change. There isn't any. The evidence we thought existed (ice core data) was being read backwards. If we'd known then what we know now about the ice-core data, no one would have built all these silly models trying to show how CO2 can be the primary driver of climate changes.

And now we have clear evidence that exonerates CO2, specifically the missing greenhouse gas signature in the troposphere, that even the IPCC admitted had to be there if we were experiencing greenhouse-gas warming.

And that's not to mention the lack of correlation between temperature changes in the last 100 years, and increases in CO2. Positive correlation from about 1900 to about 1938. Negative correlation '38 to about '75. Positive correlation '75 to '98. Negative correlation '98 to the present (when CO2 has been soaring.) Normally, when scientists realize that ALL the evidence is against a theory, they reject the theory. Why is that so hard to do? Why do the warmers keep having to go through impossible mental gymnastics to try to show that their theory still has a breath of life in it? It doesn't. The evidence is in. The theory is dead. Get over it!
129

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 17:37:45
Hexy, "Normally, when scientists realize that ALL the evidence is against a theory, they reject the theory. Why is that so hard to do?"

The simple fact is that global warming is new paganism dressed as science. It calls itself "science" but refuses to subject itself to the scientific methodology of making testable assertions and then validating those assertions against the data.

The only testable data the IPCC ever let slip through was a prediction of 1.4-5.8C/century in 2001 since when it has been cooling at an average of -0.12C/decade and that cooling trend is accelerating at an average of -0.24C/decade each decade.

There is as much evidence to support MMR and Autism, WMD in iraq, even "the end to boom and bust" ... basically the assertion said one thing, the facts say another!
130

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 17:43:32
#129 Isonomia

Coal is not oil shale. They are two entirely separate rocks derived under different conditions: coal - terrestrial swamps and oil shale - marine basin, probably anoxic.
Having said that, I don't disagree with you that, even if AGW were not happening, we would still be in dire straights and that, as you correctly state largely because we are society based on oil. But out-of-oil by the time the recession ends? Leaving aside the question of if it will ever end, I think even the most dire forecast does not suggest that. We are not yet at peak oil (at least there is no evidence of it having passed).
We have two problems, both serious, both urgent. The answer to both problems is much the same: use less fossil fuel.
131

Richard Lionheart,

on a search engine 11/02/2009 17:44:49
What’s in a name? The article tells us that Dr Buckee is a PhD in Astrophysics so that would indicate that he is an expert in his field he is talking about.

Dr Reay we are told is a “Climate Change Scientist” which indicates that he is perhaps better qualified than Dr Buckee to tell us about this matter.

Edinburgh University tells us that Dr Reay is a lecturer in Carbon Management and holds a PhD in Marine Biology and studied the response of Southern Ocean algae and bacteria to temperature change. He studies carbon emissions, which given the subject matter could mean that he may be slightly more subjective in his outlook.

Perhaps he could also have much more to lose if Dr Buckee were proved correct.
132

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 17:47:43
#132 hexy

Your post is nonsense from start to finish. Go away and do some reading. Try this:

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html
133

BMeister,

11/02/2009 17:56:56
#131 Slioch
I did read what you said and as you state correlation does not prove causation.
However you then later strongly imply that correlation proves the causation for your own argument and this is to what I am objecting.

What's more by juxtaposing the argument of Jim Buckee which you say has no correlation and therefore is wrong with your own which does have correlation it strongly implies that your own theory is correct, even though you provide no other evidence than the correlation.

In #118 you said (at the risk of repeating myself) that your evidence shows (without a possibility of contradiction)
1. Global temperatures have risen over the last few decades.
2. There is a correlation between the rise in temperature and the continuing rise in CO2 concentration.


This is correlation and not causation.

I don't want you to repeat yourself, just not contradict yourself.
134

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 17:56:58
Slioch, I thought sounded as if you would know that coal was not oil shale, and you would know that most of the fossil fuel that is counted as "resources" consist of things like oil-shales which cannot be mined enerconically, deep sea oils and gases which likewise are beginning to be unenerconic, and coal in smaller and smaller seams which will kill a lot of people to get anything like what we need.

...

No we will not be "out of oil" by the end of the recession, instead the economy will be energy constrained so that the economy will be unable to grow beyond the available energy supply.

The change from our present economic constraints to energy constraint will be "interesting times" as the chinese phrase goes. A bit like a car (the economy) suddenly going onto ice (monetary policy will loose its ability to control the economy).

I suppose what really annoys me most of all about the global warmers is how they have totally failed to get anything like the kind of renewable energy policy that we realistic need to have anything like the current standard of living without plunging the world into a third world war. That is because it was driven by a few pathetic windmill developers who couldn't see the woods for the pound signs in their eyes. They really are the most selfish bunch of people and I hope they all rot in hell (presumably one that is very hot due to global warming!)
135

Richard Lionheart,

on a search engine 11/02/2009 18:05:59
#132 Hexy. Looks like you won the debate. There was no answer except what all MMGW theorists do when hit by facts. They ignore it and tell you to go away and get brainwashed by what their reading.
136

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 18:11:59
I think greenspin and the scottish forum of bird mincers shut their offices at this time.
137

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 18:20:48
#137 BMeister
You still don't bother to read carefully. In #118 I stated, "Seanie and I have posted data from reputable sources that together indubitably shows, that:"

I then gave an accurate summary of the three points for which our various posts had given evidence. The only implication that could be taken from that was that at least CO2 had passed the correlation test, whereas Buckee's claim had not. That was all that needed to be said and all that was said. End of story.
138

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 18:22:33
#139 Richard Lionheart

No, Richard, it is just that there is a limit to the amount of idiocy even I can be bothered to respond to in one day.
139

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 18:26:12
#141 slioch"The only implication that could be taken from that was that at least CO2 had passed the correlation test,"

But the problem is that it is easy to find two things that happen to correlate historically. It is a lot more difficult to predict a correlation before it happens.

That is why science insists that claims are made in a "falsifiable" way, so that the claim can be tested against future data, not against the data that gave rise to the claim (which it would be pretty puny if it did not match).

That still leaves the one and only claim being the IPCC 1.4-5.8C/century in 2001 since when it has cooled at an average rate of -1.2C/century.
140

spren,

Andover, CT USA 11/02/2009 18:27:08
Do any of you Warmers realize how asinine and inane your comments are when you talk about how atmospheric CO2 is higher than it's been in 650K years....as if that has anything of significance in it? Do you realize how short a span of time that is?

That 650K years represents 14 one/thousandths of one percent of geological time. Trying to say this period has any significance is exactly the same as randomly picking one hour from one day and then extrapolating the conditions found during that hour as indicative of what the entire year consists of.

We have been in an ice age cycle for between 2-3 million years. CO2 naturally has been drawn down from its prior norm (sometimes 5-10 times higher than today). When CO2 falls to 200 ppm or lower, plants can't grow and begin to die off. Mankind is simply fulfilling his role as part of nature by returning to the biosphere CO2 that has been sequestered during the ages so it can serve to the benefit of the plant life required to support increasing life on the planet.

141

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 11/02/2009 18:37:49
From the Scotsman 17/1/09:


'Dr James Buckee – the former chief executive of Canada's Talisman Energy – yesterday signed with Cairn Energy as a non-executive director.

Buckee was president of BP's business in Canada before leading Talisman after it was spun out from BP.

Norman Murray, Cairn's chairman, said: "We believe he will bring extensive knowledge about the delivery of substantial engineering projects and maximising exploration activities in frontier acreage."

Obviously Buckee has a vested interest in trying to rubbish AGW.
142

C3H Editor,

Los Angeles 11/02/2009 18:42:55
Bravo, Dr. Buckee!

As the good doctor will soon discover, the majority of scientists do not accept the theory of man-made global warming. In fact, the majority of "hard" scientists reject the idea that increased CO2 causes temperature increases.

Don't believe that? Go here to read comments/quotes of scientists about global warming and CO2:

http://www.c3headlines.com/quotes-from-global-warming-critics-skeptics-sceptics.html

Need more convincing that global warming theory is lame and unfounded? How about actual, real data, that reveals temperatures past and present? Here are 80 some charts. Focus on the first 8 charts:

http://www.c3headlines.com/chartsimages.html

If you don't like to read or view charts, here are some videos on the subject. If you're short on time, watch the first 2 videos. Their brief and get to the point.

Please, become an informed citizen by looking at the data yourself. If after looking at all the data, you still want your government to spend trillions of taxes so that the temperature 100 years from now is lower by 1/4 of a degree C (yes, 1/4 of one degree), then by all means, waste your country's resources.

C3H Editor
143

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 18:58:14
I've just found what I intended to post hours ago and then forgot about. It is directly relevant to Jim Buckee's claim, see:

http://www.theecologist.org/pages/archive_detail.asp?content_id=2088

It's fairly short, so I'll post the lot:
"New studies disprove cosmic ray and solar influence theories of global warming"
Ecologist 06/02/2009

"Get into an argument with a climate change sceptic, and sooner or later they’ll trot out the old arguments about it being all due to cosmic rays, or the sun.

Now, two new studies will help you set them straight. An international group of scientists writing in the journal Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics investigated the hypothesis that a reduction in the amount of cosmic radiation hitting the earth reduces the size and number of cloud droplets, which leads to more sunlight reaching the earth’s surface and consequent temperature rise.

Using satellite data, the researchers looked at what happened to cloud droplet size, water content, and depth during so-called ‘Forbush decrease’ events – periods in which the intensity of rays hitting the earth decreases by up to 30 per cent. They could find no statistically significant association between the Forbush events and any of the cloud factors they studied.

‘Reduced cosmic rays did not lead to reduced cloud formation, either during the [Forbush events] or during the days that followed,’ said Professor Jon Egill Kristjansson of the University of Oslo. ‘Indeed, following some of the events we could see a reduction, but following others there was an increase in cloud formation. We did not find any patterns in the way the clouds changed.’

Meanwhile, a Swiss-Russian research team working to reconstruct the temperature record of a Siberian glacier for the last 750 years has concluded whilst there was a strong link between solar activity and the area’s temperature until 1850, they discovered that the rise since 1850 could not be explained by the sun’s behaviour.

Using ice-co
144

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 18:59:16
#147 Contd.

"Using ice-cores drilled from the Belukha glacier in the Siberian Altai, the team took 3,600 samples of the levels of oxygen isotopes from the ice. The radioactive oxygen atoms give an indication of past temperature.

They discovered that the significant temperature increase of the 20th century could not be explained by solar acitivity. ‘While changes in the solar activity were a main driver of temperature variations in the pre-industrial period, the temperatures in the Altai have shown a much higher rate of increase than that of solar activity during the past 150 years,’ said Anja Eichler, scientist at the Paul Scherrer Institute. ‘The strong increase in the industrial period, however, correlates with the increase in the concentration of the greenhouse gas CO2 over this time.

‘The results of our regional study indicate that changes in solar activity explain less than half of the increase in temperature in the Altai since 1850. This agrees with global studies, based on reconstructed northern hemispheric temperatures.'

This piece first appeared in The Ecologist February 2009"

145

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 19:04:02
BMeister may be interested to note that the above team reporting in "The ecologist" used much the same reasoning that I did earlier, to which you objected. That is: look for a correlation between two sets of data for which there is a putative causal relation. If the correlation is not there then the possibility of causation is not supported.
146

seanie,

11/02/2009 19:32:44
CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It's physical properties and role as such have been accepted science for over a century. From memory, since about 1860.

CO2 levels have risen signifcantly since the onset of industrialisation; from around 280ppm to around 385ppm. There is no scientific dispute on this.

That increase is due to human activity. We know this from the entirely uncontroversial fact that burning fossil fuels creates CO2, and the equally obvious fact that we've been burning a lot of fossil fuels since the onset of industrialisation.

The isotopic signature of CO2 in the atmosphere also confirms this.

That an increase in C02 should generally lead to an increase in temperature is not some wild and extravagant speculation. It's exactly what accepted scientific understanding tells us to expect.

It might be possible that there is some completely unknown and as yet to be discovered mechanism that is responsible for the warming trend. But that seems unlikely since we'd also have discover some hitherto completely unknown reason why the increase in CO2 isn't causing it.

Because basic physics tells us IT SHOULD BE.

147

seanie,

11/02/2009 19:39:51
And remember...

The last five years have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that, which themselves were warmer than the five before.

When average temperatures go up, that's called warming.
148

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 19:42:02
1) So the claim is that sunspot activity cannot be the only reason behind recent warming.

Well I guess one problem with this claim is that the mechanism on how solar activity effects climate is very poorly understood.

Small-scale ice ages occur every 20,000 to 40,000 years and massive ones happen every 100,000 years or so. The accepted theory is Milankovitch's cycles. (Changes in earths orbit that alter how much solar radiation is observed)

Trouble is that studies have shown that orbital fluctuations affect solar energy by 1 percent or less - this isn't enough to effect significant climate change.

So what's happening?

>>“The mystery is, what is the amplification factor?” says University of Michigan geologist and climatologist Henry Pollack. “What takes a small amount of solar energy change and produces a large amount of glaciation?”<<

Dismissing Solar activity as a prime cause because it doesn't fit the figures would also mean ditching Milankovitch cycles - which also doesn't fit the figures.

But Milankovitch cycles aren't being ditched, instead people realise that solar interaction is simply complicated and there are things that perhaps amplify that we don't know about.

2) Even if we reject solar activity, why does this prove anything about Co2? It doesn't. Correlation doesn't prove anything causal - indeed correlation only exists on a very tiny time frame, and is now beginning to flounder as IPCC models are failing.




149

Hexy,

11/02/2009 19:55:01
So Slioch has ignored my evidence and called me an idiot. I say he's a poo-poo head. OK, who won the debate?

(Haven't enjoyed this level of intellectual stimulation since about age 6...)
150

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 20:00:31
Seanie, if CO2 absorbs IR, then by the laws of physics it also emits almost the same IR at the same frequencies. So a good absorber is a good emitter, and a good emitter will enhances the ability of the earth to cool down so it will tend to cool the atmosphere.

Also it is well known that increasing the "insulation" space of double glazing at first increases insulation, and then decreases it as the space begins to allow convection currents to flow which effectively destroy the insulating properties of the "insulation" gap.

Or to put it a way most people understand, if the met office can't predict the temperature of our atmosphere a few days in advance, if the met office have got the global temperature far too high each and every year they have tried to forecast global temperatures, if the Met Office basically can't predict what is happening in our atmosphere in the short term, ONLY A RIGH IDIOT WOULD THINK THERE IS ANY HOPE OF PREDICTING WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH A MINISCULE CHANGE IN THE ATMOSPHERE THROUGH CO2.

All we can do is look at the evidence, and the evidence since the IPCC said the world woudl warm by 1.4-5.8C/century is that it is cooling at a rate of -1.2C/century.

COOLING, COOLING, COOLING, COOLING, COOLING, COOLING, COOLING!
151

ThePeter,

Glasgae 11/02/2009 20:01:15
Gosh, the greenies are in a whirl about this one
Bit like the Vatican with Leonardo saying that the sun does not go round the world - they felt very threatened and went after him
For the Vatican read greenhouse/global warming etc
For Leonardo read Dr Buckee

Carry on Dr Buckee, someone has to fight against the environmental fascists some of whom are above...

152

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 20:14:09
ThePeter, have you heard the latest boast of the global warmers "A thousand years of global warming".

Bearing in mind they can't even predict the global temperature 1 year ahead, it's worth point out that the last person to claim a thousand year reign for their cause was a little man with a moustache, one ball and a rather over rated idea of his own importance.

With recent cooling I give 10:1 that the "1000 years of global warming" will not last longer than the 1000 year reich!
153

ThePeter,

Glasgae 11/02/2009 20:16:24
Isonomia - I agree with you
154

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 20:30:08
ThePeter, it always worries me when people start agreeing with me. It either means I have stopped blazing a trail into the future for other to follow, or it means I'm stuck 20 years in the past and the fashion has come full circle (flared jeans are always either in fashion or a few decades ahead of the fashion!)
155

eyeswider,

11/02/2009 20:40:00
Ferenc Miskolczi -

"There has been no increase in the effective amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere during the

last 60 years".
156

eyeswider,

11/02/2009 20:40:13
http://www.climate4you.com/ClimateReflections.htm#20080911: Is the global temperature increase 1981-2005

unique compared to the general temperature rise since the end of the Little Ice Age

(yes that is the whole url ;-)

Ole Humlum, Professor of Physical Geography at the Institute of Geosciences, University of Oslo, since

2003 and Adjunct Professor of Physical Geography at the University Centre in Svalbard (UNIS), since

2003-

"The unfortunate procedure of comparing linear fits calculated for time windows of different lengths

lead IPCC 2007 to the unwarranted conclusion that the temperature rise 1981-2005 was unique (Figure A).

In reality, this is not the case. The temperature increase leading up to the warm peak around 1940 is

entirely comparable to that characterising the period 1981-2005 (Figure E). Also when the monthly

temperature change is considered, the 1981-2005 does not stand out (Figure F). Consequently the latter

part of the post Little Ice Age warming do not differ from the early part of the warming period."

157

eyeswider,

11/02/2009 20:43:05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_sun

"Energy from the Sun, in the form of sunlight, supports almost all life on Earth via photosynthesis, and drives the Earth’s climate and weather."

Where is William Connolly when you need him? He has been very slack with this entry. Must be busy climbing the walls with his co-conspiritors at surrealclimate.
158

eyeswider,

11/02/2009 20:44:40
Darned copy and paste ;-)

seanie has had a hundred iterations to get set his right.
159

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 21:02:15
eyeswider: IPCC= Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Clowns. It's really a big April joke that went very wrong ... people believed them!
160

M dB,

Aberdeen 11/02/2009 21:06:41
#136 Slioch
Hexy, before you go to the historian Spencer Weart’s URL, http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html have a look at his very honest – and surprisingly scientific, statement quoted here:
http://tinyurl.com/bjy7ex
161

M dB,

Aberdeen 11/02/2009 21:15:19
Sorry to return to general issues. I am currently agnostic, but gradually becoming skeptical of AGW (alarmist) views, as promoted by such as the Royal Society. I join Jim Buckee, and people such as Patrick Moore, Greenpeace co-founder, who has observed:
"It appears to be the policy of the Royal Society to stifle dissent and silence anyone who may have doubts about the connection between global warming and human activity. That kind of repression seems more suited to the Inquisition than to a modern, respected scientific body.”

The Royal Society may be worthy but is not unchallengeable: www.cps.org.uk/cpsfile.asp?id=1016
162

M dB,

Aberdeen 11/02/2009 21:17:32
Most URLs, cited earlier (e.g. by Seanie), are surprisingly, but predictably, from sources representing orthodox ‘establishment’/government views – and therefore not surprising in content.

With apologies, here are some more, this time representing the healthier skeptical scientific approach.

1. Who can you trust? See the PPT PDF: http://tinyurl.com/5v74nt

2. More than 650 scientists, many of them outstanding and true specialists in climate studies and certainly not mindless ‘deniers’: http://tinyurl.com/3sjq5e

…certainly more than the mere 50 or so who authored 2007 the IPCC Report

3. Some thoughts on the future: http://tinyurl.com/awhr5p
163

M dB,

Aberdeen 11/02/2009 21:23:14
#166
Correction:
2. More than 650 scientists, many of them outstanding and true specialists in climate studies and certainly not mindless ‘deniers’: http://tinyurl.com/3sjq5e

…certainly more than the mere 50 or so who authored the 2007 IPCC Summary for Policymakers
164

Crywolf,

aberdeen 11/02/2009 21:25:43
The university of aberdeen has a web site dedicated to this lecture series with blogging facility. I just posted a couple of charts there placing the IPCC view of 1000 years of climate into perspective and looking at the temperature record of the last 12 years.

http://energycontroversies.abdn.ac.uk/group/naturaldriversofclimatecycles/forum/topics/no-uncertainty-in
165

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 21:48:59
#168
http://energycontroversies.abdn.ac.uk/group/naturaldriversofclimatecycles/forum/topics/no-uncertainty-in

Nice entry Crywolf.


#166
"3. Some thoughts on the future: http://tinyurl.com/awhr5p"

Some nice graphs. Interesting to note the almost symmetrical highs of the 30s and 90s.

The figures below are the warmest years in the US (the numbers represent deviation from the average. The New column is the correct numbers)


Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85

Notice the 1930s and 1990s lead the pack.
166

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

11/02/2009 21:51:37
Since when did scientific fact depend on what particular persuasion you were of?
I accept the concept of global warming because the consensus among scientists is that it is the most likely explanation for the facts that we know-not because I might be left wing or anything else. If the scientists discover that they were wrong, or rather that another theory better fits with the available facts, then I will probably go with that to.
Not being a scientist, I don't see that I have much choice, and the proof that science is usually right is all around us.
167

Shelley Jordan,

Canada 11/02/2009 21:53:44
Regardless of whether climate change is occurring because of human, or solar activity, the bottom line is that money is NOT wasted when spent on reducing carbon emissions, because such reductions also mean cleaner air and water. If believing in the human element gets people angry enough to jump on board the environmental train, then CHOO CHOOOOO!!! And if environmentalism creates jobs and helps the world economy, it sure beats the way the world dug themselves out of the depression in the thirties.
168

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

11/02/2009 21:55:17
'Gosh, the greenies are in a whirl about this one
Bit like the Vatican with Leonardo saying that the sun does not go round the world - they felt very threatened and went after him
For the Vatican read greenhouse/global warming etc
For Leonardo read Dr Buckee
'

I think that says it all about your argument really. It was Galileo not Leonardo who got into trouble with the Catholic church for saying that the earth went round the sun.
169

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 21:58:39
Newton_Invented_Gravity, the problem with global warming is that it is not scientific. In order for something to be scientific it must be able to be tested. Global warming doesn't make claims that anyone can test, all it does is say: "predict that CO2 and temperature go up together, and we have tested this on the same data from which we got this conclusion ... and guess what the data does show the two go up together".

This is not science, this is the kind of rubbish used by fortune tellers, there's no skill predicting the past.

The closest we've got to a scientific prediction is when the IPCC in 2001 said the temperature would rise by 1.4C to 5.8C in the next century. But since 2001 far from increasing the global temperature (according to UK met office figures) has been cooling at an equivalent rate of -1.2C/century.

Prediction: 1.4-5.8C
Actual: -1.2C

The only Scientific conclusion is: "evidence does not support theory"
170

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

11/02/2009 22:01:51
'the problem with global warming is that it is not scientific.

That is an opinion. You are entitled to it. It is however complete nonsense.
171

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 22:24:25
#168 Crywolf,

thanks for that link above. I finally found the paper which demolishes the idea that somehow the climate was stable in the past and that the recent warming is "unprecedented". (http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/AGW/Loehle/Loehle_McC_E&E_2008.pdf)

The reason for all this rubbish seems so obvious now I've read the paper: tree ring size which are assumed to reflect historic temperatures only reflect sharp changes in temperature. Over a long period, if plant growth decreases, then forests tend to become less dense allowing plant growth to increase. Similarly if temperatures encourage plant growth, the forest become more dense and so plant growth drops.

So, basically, over the long term, irrespective of the temperature of the climate, tree ring size will tend to show stability.

It's so obvious now, the apparent historic stability of the climate isn't because the climate was stable, but because forests adjusted their density until trees grew at their optimum rate!
172

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 22:30:22
#174, Newton-stole-gravity: "
That is an opinion. You are entitled to it. It is however complete nonsense."

It's not my opinion, it is just the basis of science which anyone with any training in the philosophy of science will know. Science requires assertions to be made in a way so that they can be tested.

I didn't make that rule, I'm just pointing out the blindinly obvious that the only testable assertion on global warming (IPCC predicted warming of 1.4-5.8C/century in 2001) is at odds with the facts (cooling this century at a rate of -1.2C/century according to Met Office Data)

Everything bar one thing in the above is factual calculations based and the accepted definition. The one thing that isn't is the IPCC assertion
173

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 22:32:27
#174, Newton-stole-gravity: "That is an opinion. You are entitled to it. It is however complete nonsense."

It's not my opinion, it is just the basis of science which anyone with any training in the philosophy of science will know. Science requires assertions to be made in a way that they can be tested.

I didn't make that rule, I'm just pointing out the blindingly obvious that the only testable assertion on global warming (the IPCC predicted warming of 1.4-5.8C/century in 2001) is at odds with the facts (cooling this century at a rate of -1.2C/century according to Met Office Data)

Everything bar one in the above is factual calculations and a generally accepted definition. The one thing that isn't is the IPCC assertion ... that is the only opinion I have cited!
174

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

11/02/2009 22:37:33
Your opinion is nonsense. Because what you are asking us to believe is that scientists who research the issue of climate change simply throw away all their normal scientific methods and just make up a load of nonsense that suits them-and not just one scientist but the majority of scientists all over the world-and that they have this massive conspiracy together to keep this going. If you believe that then that puts you on the same level as UFO nutters and people who think that Elvis is still alive.
175

graphicconception,

UK 11/02/2009 22:37:39
#39
"If Jim Buckee's claim was correct then one would expect a correlation between solar activity and global average temperature for the last 100 years."

I think this graph uses similar data to yours but with different scaling and smoothing. However, this one shows a better corelation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunspot_Numbers.png
176

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 22:49:07
Just wanted to elaborate on a previous post. Its being claimed that 'the Sun can't be responsible for recent temperature changes'. I wrote earlier:

@@@@@
Small-scale ice ages occur every 20,000 to 40,000 years and massive ones happen every 100,000 years or so. The accepted theory is Milankovitch's cycles. (Changes in earths orbit that alter how much solar radiation is observed)

Trouble is that studies have shown that orbital fluctuations affect solar energy by 1 percent or less - this isn't enough to effect significant climate change.

So what's happening?

>>“The mystery is, what is the amplification factor?” says University of Michigan geologist and climatologist Henry Pollack. “What takes a small amount of solar energy change and produces a large amount of glaciation?”<<

Dismissing Solar activity as a prime cause because it doesn't fit the figures would also mean ditching Milankovitch cycles - which also doesn't fit the figures.

But Milankovitch cycles aren't being ditched, instead people realise that solar interaction is simply complicated and there are things that perhaps amplify that we don't know about.@@@@@

Just to elaborate. Consider cosmic rays. Henrik Svensmark was one of the first to see a correlation between cosmic rays and cloud cover. Neither is this just a correlation. It is possible to duplicate cloud formation - Cosmic rays can create electrically charged ions in the atmosphere that act as a magnet for water vapour, causing clouds to form.

Now this is an indirect influence of the Sun rather than any direct effect via heating. The sun’s magnetic field can push a greater proportion of cosmic rays away from the Earth - then fewer clouds will form, and you get a warming effect because of reduced high level cloud.

Models supporting AGW don't consider such cloud formations, and hence fail to understand how the sun can have a larger effect than just direct heating.

This is one of the reasons why 'it can't be just the s
177

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 22:50:16
Continued:
This is one of the reasons why 'it can't be just the sun' is simply too simplistic. It's more complicated than that.
178

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 11/02/2009 23:03:28
For those interested he's a link or two:

http://mises.org/story/2571 "I Was On the Global Warming Gravy Train" and why he is now a skeptic.

http://www.drroyspencer.com/ and his blog entry 'Another NASA Defection to the Skeptics’ Camp' that perhaps should prod people who are still under the impression that there is some kind of consensus out there.


179

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 11/02/2009 23:08:17
when I was a lad scotland had a great education system. judging by these posts, science and reasoning have been replaced by cant and churlishness.

Science moves by debate and challenge, the good professor has a right to put forward his views contrary views that expose weakenesses force scientists to gather more evidence and adapt. Remember also that science moves and so does the predictions and understanding of climate change. It is true that there are many who view the sad that some see climate thing as new religion and probably, like many of the writers in this blog, they do not get the science either.
180

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 11/02/2009 23:08:26
#179 graphicconception said, "I think this graph uses similar data to yours [at #39] but with different scaling and smoothing. However, this one shows a better corelation."

The Wiki graph you link to doesn't show any correlation at all between temperature and sunspots because it doesn't show temperature!!!

The black line is the smoothed average of the sunspot numbers, NOT temperature.

Notice that the "modern maximum" was at about 1950 and has been falling in recent years. That is in contrast to temperature, which has been rising in recent years.

181

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

11/02/2009 23:15:46
#182 And I suppose there isn't a 'gravy train' for global warming sceptics? I take it Mr Buckee is doing all this for free and his interests in oil and gas companies don't have anything to do with it?
182

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 23:18:57
#178 Newton_Invented_Gravity: "Your opinion is nonsense ... because what you are asking us to believe is that scientists who research the issue of climate change simply throw away all their normal scientific methods ... on the same level as UFO nutters and people who think that Elvis is still alive."

Newton you've said your not a scientist so I'll start with the basics. Science is a displine which has set rules that require assertions to be based on the evidence. That means just because someone who is or calls themselves a scientists says something it does not make it science.

You will no doubt remember the MMR-Autism scare, you will may remember the scare about salmonella in eggs. These were scares which as you put it "scientists who research the issue .... simply throw away all their normal scientific methods". Not everyone plays by the rules of science, and to be frank some subjects seem to have very much less idea of the rules than others.

But I shall repeat the cardinal rule: "assertions must be testable and tested against the data". If it doesn't meet that criteria ANYONE, I REPEAT ANYONE with a knowledge of the philosophy of science will agree that it is not science.

That is the plain simple facts and my opinion has nothing to do with it.

Now you know the criteria for deciding whether any subject is scientific, the question is whether global warming puts its assertion of a link between mankind and the 20th century warming in a form that can be tested, and does the data support that test.

The only testable assertion I've found (and I've done more searching than I would care to admit) is that in 2001 the IPCC said the climate would warm by 1.4C to 5.8C in the next century.

Taking the UK Met Office data for global temperature and using a standard calculation to determine trend (which we scientists call a "linear regression") the trend in the world temperature is cooling at a rate equivalent to -1.2C/century.

Prediction: Warming
Actual da
183

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

11/02/2009 23:23:30
#186 What you've got there is a conspiracy theory, nothing more.
184

Isonomia,

Lenzie 11/02/2009 23:50:46
Newton-invented-gravy ... the rules of science are like the rules of our society. They just are the rules. It is no more rediculous to to say that people who break the rules of science are not scientists as to say that people who break the rules of our society are criminals.

It's not a conspiracy that makes criminals criminal!

According to wikipedia the definition of a conspiracy theory is: "A conspiracy theory alleges a coordinated group is, or was, secretly working to commit illegal or wrongful actions".

There's nothing secret about the IPCC lack of scientifically testable assertions. So long as they don't claim to be scientific, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them saying whatever they like about global temperatures. It's just if they want to claim to be scientists they have to stick by the rules.

If you predict warming of 1.4C to 5.8C per century, and it actually cools by an average rate of -1.2C/century since that prediction, then the rule says:

If the prediction fails then it isn't a scientific prediction. END OF STORY!
185

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 00:05:38
#188 You're acting as if the scientists are unaware of this;they are not- but evidently the have looked at these concerns and judged them not to be sufficiently sconvincing. I will trust the scientists on this because they are qualified in their field and have no vested interest other than in doing good science; I will trust mr buckee much less as he has no qualification in climate science, and he has a vested interest in the oil and gas industry.
186

seanie,

12/02/2009 00:12:04
IF the prediction is 1.4C to 5.8C per century, and IF it actually cools by an average rate of -1.2C/century over the first 8 years of the century, with 92 still to go, then any judgement that the prediction has FAILED is pretty much RETARDED.

And remember...

The last five years have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that, which themselves were warmer than the five before.

When average temperatures go up, that's called warming.
187

loughjohn,

.sco 12/02/2009 01:48:34
save your 'breath' seanie.

fact: the ice is melting.

fact: sea temperatures are rising.

how exactly does this fit in with the theory of global cooling ?.

answers on loo roll please.
188

tomi,

12/02/2009 02:29:38
How dare he; even to suggest that the Emperor of Global Warming has no clothes!
He should just jump on the anti-CO2 bandwagon like the rest of the "free thinking" herd.
189

skiman,

north kingstown, rhode island 12/02/2009 02:46:12
To # 39...while the correlation between sunspot # and temperature may not support the notion that the sun has a significant impact on climate, if you do your homework and research TSI (total solar irradiance) vs. T, you will find a correlation that dwarfs that of CO2 vs. T. Also, the combination of PDO (Pacific Decadal Oscillation)and AMO (Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation) vs T is significant, and also dwarfs any connection between CO2 and temperature. While you are at it, you might want to compare the 4 eleven year solar cycles that preceded the Dalton Minimum from 1790 to 1825 with the most recent 4 cycles...the similarities are striking. I believe that the Dalton Minimum took place about the same time that Dickens wrote a great deal about snow in Britain...sound familiar? You keep worshipping those poorly designed and poorly initialized climate models...the rest of us will look at what climate changes the sun and the oceans have produced in the past and we will plan accordingly...
190

not_just_now,

12/02/2009 08:17:52
#191 -

"fact: the ice is melting" Ice melts every summer, and re-freezes every winter - see

www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/arctic-sea-ice-47121205 (December 2007) and

www.wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/15/arctic-sea-ice-now-287-higher-than-this-date-last-year-still-climbing/

for this winter. As for Antartica, there is considerable eveidence that that the ice sheet is thickening - http://www.skepticalscience.com/Is-Antarctic-ice-melting-or-growing.html

"Fact: sea temperatures are rising." - http://www.john-daly.com/stations/alesund.gif doesn't look like any significant long term rise there.

I agree that the majority of glaciers have been melting, but it likely due to the fact that the Earth has been in a natural warm period for the last 120 years, and the glaciers are effectively still melting from when the conditons were considerably colder in the much longer period between 1300 and 1850. If you take a lump of ice out of a freezer and leave it outside, it will still melt regardless of any apparent uopward (or downward) trend in the ambient temperature.
191

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 12/02/2009 08:40:23
#193 skiman

I actually tried to put in the TSI data along with sunspots and temperature in my original graph in #39, but unfortunately the woodfortrees site only shows values since 1979 (the satellite values) so I couldn't do so.

Less accurate data for TSI prior to 1979 of course exist, and, of course, show a correlation with temperature. But for the last three decades or so TSI has been declining whist average global temperatures have been increasing, indicating that the forcing due to anthropogenic GHGs is becoming significant.

Of course the major player in climate is the sun: but fortunately it is reasonably stable: in the last thirty years or so it has varied from a high of c.1367 to 1365W/m2, a variation of only 0.15%. CO2 on the other hand has increased from 337 (1979) to 385 (2008), an increase of 14%, so the rate of change of CO2 forcing is about 100 times greater than any change in the sun over that period. And, of course, in the opposite direction: the CO2 change is causing more warming, the sun change is causing less warming. Here is the graph of temp. v TSI since 1979 from woodfortrees:

http://tinyurl.com/c449g7

As you can see, temperature (green) has generally risen, whereas solar (red) has slightly declined.

You can find similar (less accurate) graphs going back before 1979 if you look: they clearly show that the correlation between TSI and Temp. breaks down in the 1970s: that's the problem - CO2 is becoming significant.
192

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 12/02/2009 08:47:54
#193 skiman

And of course "combination of PDO (Pacific Decadal Oscillation)and AMO (Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation) ... dwarfs any connection between CO2 and temperature."

Of course it does - in the short term. Scarcely a thread like this goes by without me having to remind someone that, whilst the warming trend is c.0.018C/year, the annual variation is up to 0.2C/year.

That warming trend is due to CO2. The annual variation is due to things like PDO/AMO (and other things), and as you can see is about TEN TIMES stronger than the CO2 (+other anthropogenic GHGs). But the point is, the crucial point is: that the CO2 forcing is RELENTLESS: it ain't going to go away and it is always positive and it is getting bigger. The PDO/AMO effects are temporary and can be both cooling and warming.
193

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 12/02/2009 09:07:42
#188 and previous Isonomia

You are correct to state that hypotheses should be potentially falsifiable, and that an hypothesis that is not potentially falsifiable is not scientific.

That is why hypotheses such as: "God created the world 6000 years ago along with all the fossils and eroded mountains and animals and plants" is not scientific: there is no way to prove that it is false.

Where you are completely wrong in in suggesting that the hypothesis that "enhanced CO2 levels in the atmosphere is causing warming" is not falsifiable. Of course it is falsifiable. It predicts, for example, that the outgoing IR radiation leaving the surface of the Earth should be greater than that leaving the top of the atmosphere (because some IR has been absorbed by GHGs in its transit through the atmosphere). Do we find this is the case? YES - the upwards flux at the ground is c.390W/m2 whereas at the top of the atmosphere it is c240W/m2. The "missing" 150W/m2 is that absorbed by GHGs. How else can one explain that evidence?

Moreover, the wavelengths of some of the absorbed IR radiation correspond to the absorption bands of CO2 (as well as water, CH4, N2O etc). How else do we explain those absorptions?

There are countless other example of detailed verifications such as the two above, but if you want a test for your favourite topic of recent changes in temperature (the "Has Global Warming stopped" meme) then look at this: (in fact, if you look at nothing else: look at this and study it well. It comprehensively illustrates how completely mistaken you are):

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/you-bet/
194

not_just_now,

Subarushire 12/02/2009 10:19:06
Slioch (#195): "Of course the major player in climate is the sun: but fortunately it is reasonably stable: in the last thirty years or so it has varied from a high of c.1367 to 1365W/m2, a variation of only 0.15%. CO2 on the other hand has increased from 337 (1979) to 385 (2008), an increase of 14%, so the rate of change of CO2 forcing is about 100 times greater than any change in the sun over that period. "

But CO2 is makes up only a tiny fraction of the atmosphere - and in reality the increase in CO2 is from 0.000337
to 0.000385 by volume. And CO2 is only one of the greenhouse gases, water vapour is by far the greater determining factor in the equation. There is also the issue of diminishing returns (increasing the thickness of insulation does not make much difference if your house is already well insulated). Let me illustate this - a couple of weeks ago Aviemore had night time lows of -15'C. Here in Highland Perthshire, less than 30 miles away as the crow flies, the coldest it got was about -3'C. We also had frozen ground, 100% snow cover, and the same arctic air overhead. We are also about the same distance from the sea. The difference was due to the thin cloud cover we had, i.e. water vapour. Hence CO2 levels are effectively a tiny part of the equation, irrespective of whether they are 337ppm or 385ppm. Your bad science has done nothing but confrim the nonsense of the CO2 AGW thesis, which remains totally unproven.
195

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 12/02/2009 10:20:40
Gosh! You can have some fun with these graphs. I've just plotted the following, (in each case from 1979 to 2008, with trend lines):
1. average global temperature (blue with green trend line)
2. sunspot counts (turquoise with brown trend line)
3. Total Solar Radiation (purple with red trend line)

See: http://tinyurl.com/dlvkuy

The scales are not significant, but what these graphs show is that both solar indices (TSI and sunspots) are tending DOWN since 1979, whereas temperatures are trending UP. Of course, anyone with any sense knows this already - it's nothing new - but it's fun playing around with the graphs none the less.

And, of course, it does raise the two questions:
1. if the trend in recent decades is for sunspot numbers to be decreasing whilst temperatures have been increasing, what can there be that is counteracting the effect that the decrease in sunspots should be having? (CLUE: Two words, first beginning with C, second with D)
2. if the trend in recent decades is for total solar radiation to be decreasing whilst temperatures have been increasing, what can there be that is counteracting the effect that the decrease in TSI should be having? (CLUE: Two words, first beginning with C, second with D).

As the meerkat says, "Simples!"
196

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 12/02/2009 10:37:21
#198 not_just_now

It is the relative increase in CO2 that is significant.

If you weigh 100kg and take 1g of paracetamol (the recommenced dose) then you will have 10ppm of paracetamol in you body (ie 1g in 100,000g or 10g in 1,000,000g). If you then increased that amount by the amount that CO2 has increased since the industrial revolution (c. 100ppm - in other words by another 10g,) then you would probably be dead.

Potent molecules, whether drugs or GHGs, have significant effects in small concentrations and increasing those concentrations increases the effects (though not necessarily linearly).
197

Dr. Francis T. Manns,

Toronto 12/02/2009 11:25:41
Keeping in mind that windmills are hazardous to birds, be wary of the unintended consequences of believing and contributing to the all-knowing environmental lobby groups.
Climate and economy are being linked. Yes there has been warming since the Pleistocene. Climate is a multiple input, multiple loop, multiple output, complex system. The facts and the hypotheses do not support CO2 as a serious 'pollutant'. In fact it is plant fertilizer and seriously important to all life on the planet. It is the red herring used by the left to unwind our economy. That issue makes the science relevant.
Water vapour (0.4% overall by volume in air, but 1 – 4 % near the surface) is the most effective green house gas followed by methane (0.0001745%). The third ranking greenhouse gas is CO2 (0.0383%), and it does not correlate well with global warming or cooling either; in fact, CO2 in the atmosphere trails warming which is clear natural evidence for its well-studied inverse solubility in water: CO2 dissolves in cold water and bubbles out of warm water. The equilibrium in seawater is very high; making seawater a great 'sink'; CO2 is 34 times more soluble in water than air is soluble in water.
CO2 has been rising and Earth has been warming. However, the correlation trails. Correlation, moreover, is not causation. The causation is being studied, however, and while the radiation from the sun varies only in the fourth decimal place, the magnetism is awesome.
“Using a box of air in a Copenhagen lab, physicists traced the growth of clusters of molecules of the kind that build cloud condensation nuclei. These are specks of sulphuric acid on which cloud droplets form. High-energy particles driven through the laboratory ceiling by exploded stars far away in the Galaxy - the cosmic rays - liberate electrons in the air, which help the molecular clusters to form much faster than climate scientists have modeled in the atmosphere. That may explain the link between cosmic rays, cloudin
198

Gettier,

12/02/2009 12:01:03
In this article it sounds like there are only 2 debates. Global warming related to C02 and Global cooling related to sunspots.

Is there not a very strong argument for climate change caused by sunspots with cooling periods when there is a minimum and warming when we are in a solar maximium, with a gradual warming with each sunspot cycle.

Is it not possible that the billion dollar campaign for CO2 induced climate change could be a distraction from the uncontrollable effects of the sun and their forthcoming impacts on earth and that the evidence for C02 affecting the climate is maybe correct but so is that of the sunspots.

Please read the following links and make up your own mind:

Sun Unleashes Record Superflare, Earth Dodges Solar Bullet
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/04/010404081121.htm

Sunspots reaching 1,000-year high
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3869753.stm

The truth about global warming - it’s the Sun that’s to blame
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3325679/The-truth-about-global-warming—it’s-the-Sun-that’s-to-blame.html

Scientists Issue Unprecedented Forecast of Next Sunspot Cycle
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2006/sunspot.shtml

Magnetic-Shield Cracks Found; Big Solar Storms Expected
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081217-solar-breaches.html

POWER GRIDS IN PERIL:
http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=07&month=01&year=2009

Would be great to get feedback from people on this!
199

not_just_now,

Subarushire 12/02/2009 12:03:04
Slioch - your analagy is a poor one. You give an example of a drug which will have toxic effects in larger doses. But CO2 is not a toxin, or pollutant, it is a naturally occuring gas in the Earth's ecosystem. Without CO2 there would be no life on Earth. And as you well know, there have been times in the planet's history when CO2 levels were much higher than today, and life continued on. You also fail to address the key points I made, i.e. the law of diminishing returns, and the fact that CO2 plays only a small part in the overall greenhouse effect. As I said, levels of water vapour (and methane as Dr Manns has also just pointed out in #201) are much more significant.
200

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 12:41:11
#202 Gettier, I really do think there is a strong case for getting a lot more research done on the climate if for no other reason than to stop another costly charade like this global warming scam.

Having read widely on the subject, I was struck by the paper mentioned above (http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/AGW/Loehle/Loehle_McC_E&E_2008.pdf) because this blows a hole in the global warming argument that the warming in the 20th century was "unprecented".

The fact is that the global warmers have been using a historical temperature scale which doesn't reflect the actual historical temperature because it is self-adjusting.

The size of a tree ring is affected by temperature, but the density of the forest in which those trees stand, will adjust so that the trees tend to be growing at their optimum rate.

The result is that using tree-ring proxies only shows short term changes in climate, short enough for the forest density not to self-adjust.

The result is that the global warmers have been showing the world historical temperatures which appeared to be rock steady. The truth (as shown by historical accounts), is that the world climate has always had significant variation, and whilst the 20th century warming is real, it is well within the normal variation of the climate.

So, the simple fact is that we had a period of absolutely bulk standard warming of the climate by an amount well within the normal variability of the climate and so small it has proven almost impossible to prove it has had any effects.

Yes, it would be nice to understand why the climate changes, but far more important is to the climate "change" we have had within its proper context as part of the natural variability of the climate.
201

Yocal,

12/02/2009 13:12:16
The Suns activity and cosmic rays are not responsible.

Climate response to solar forcing less than reported:

http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws/article/research/36581

Research from Lancaster and Durham Universities:

http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws/article/opinion/33642

202

Yocal,

12/02/2009 13:33:40
Banana Heid said:

"Take a walk to the beach and see if the sea levels have changed any since you were a child. I think you will find that not much is different."

Yocal said:

Ah yes, the old anecdotal evidence must prove everything!
How many people actually cared about sea levels when they were kids??

The average rise is about 9 cm since 1960. That's about 9 metres of beach.
203

seanie,

12/02/2009 13:38:20
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?tip=1&id=6777

"Carbon dioxide only makes up a small amount of the atmosphere, but even in tiny concentrations it has a large influence on our climate.

The properties of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide mean that they strongly absorb heat a fact that can be easily demonstrated in a simple laboratory experiment. While there are larger concentrations of other gases in the atmosphere, such as nitrogen, because they do not have these heat trapping qualities they have no effect on warming the climate whatsoever."
204

seanie,

12/02/2009 13:38:42
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11652

"A simplified summary is that about 50% of the greenhouse effect is due to water vapour, 25% due to clouds, 20% to CO2, with other gases accounting for the remainder."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

"By effect, the most important greenhouse gases are:

water vapor, which causes about 36–70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth.
carbon dioxide, which causes 9–26%
methane, which causes 4–9%
ozone, which causes 3–7% "
205

seanie,

12/02/2009 13:39:02
http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/ccm/0108_watervapor.htm

"Water vapor is one of the most important elements of the climate system. A greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide, it accounts for 66 to 85 percent of the greenhouse effect, compared to a range of 9 to 26 percent for CO2. So why all the attention on carbon dioxide and its ilk? Is water vapor the real culprit behind global warming?

The answer is that water vapor is indeed responsible for a major portion of Earth's warming over the past century and for projected future warming. However, water vapor is not the cause of this warming. This is a critical, if subtle, distinction between the role of greenhouse gases as either forcings or feedbacks. In this case, anthropogenic emissions of CO2, methane, and other gases are warming the Earth. Rising temperature leads to a higher atmospheric water vapor concentration, resulting in additional warming.

The primary reasons why water vapor cannot be a cause of climate change are its short atmospheric residence time and a basic physical limitation on the quantity of water vapor in the atmosphere for any given temperature (its saturation vapor pressure). The addition of a large amount of water vapor to the troposphere would have little effect on global temperatures in the short term due to the thermal inertia of the climate system."
206

seanie,

12/02/2009 13:40:51
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?tip=1&id=6233

"Changes in the Sun's activity influence the Earth's climate through small but significant variations in its intensity. When it is in a more active' phase as indicated by a greater number of sunspots on its surface it emits more light and heat. While there is evidence of a link between solar activity and some of the warming in the early 20th Century, measurements from satellites show that there has been very little change in underlying solar activity in the last 30 years there is even evidence of a detectable decline and so this cannot account for the recent rises we have seen in global temperatures."
207

Yocal,

12/02/2009 13:43:51
Hmmm said:

"Perhaps Jenny Haworth could tell us why market gardeners increase the CO2 content of the air in their greenhouses to promote plant growth if CO2 is a pollutant?"

Yocal said:

That is in a controlled environment and where humans are actually keen to grow the plants rather than chop them down and concrete over the land.
Of course if world wide, plants were soaking up so much CO2 then CO2 levels wouldn't be rising. The fact is we are pumping so much CO2 into the atmosphere that all the sinks can not keep up.

The other point is that if you are going to use the 'poison' metaphor then if the CO2 in your green house increases to a very high level, any human in it would suffocate.

If you accuse people of being gullible, then at least analyse the complexity of the issues in detail, otherwise one can only assume that your opinion is shaped by a lack of knowledge, that truely does indicate a gullibility.
208

Yocal,

12/02/2009 14:10:23
Not_just_now:

"Their models are seriously flawed (this year the Met office predicted a "milder then average winter for the UK" "

The Met Office said:

"Mean temperatures are likely to be average or below average for the rest of winter over the UK."

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/seasonal/winter2008_9/

Yocal said:

Why do you believe short term weather predictions are important when considering long term trends?
You make assumptions which imply that you know how they should work or that you know the connections between short term weather and long term climate.
Maybe you can state why you know and if so maybe you should be doing your own research.

If you don't have answers, then your real reason for being 'against' climate change research is because you just don't want to know. Otherwise leave the scientists to do the job and you get on with your job.
209

skiman,

n. kingstown, rhode island 12/02/2009 14:15:18
Siloch 195, 196

"Less accurate data for TSI prior to 1979 of course exists, and, of course, shows a correlation with temperature". Could you possibly be more condescending? Your answer actually points out a major problem with those who support the faulty notion that CO2 is sending us all to hell in a handbasket...the reluctance, or in some cases, the outright refusal to acknowledge and consider data and events from further back in time. In the autumn of 1979, a young scientist in the US held a news conference to announce that the extent of Arctic sea ice was at "it's lowest point in history". When questioned further, it was discovered that his definition of "history" was back to 1979, which was when satellite images of the Arctic were first available. Coincidentally, that was about the time that the Pacific Decadal Oscillation started its' 28 year run in its' warm phase. There are pictures, logs, and even movies available of ships navigating through the Northwest passage in the 1930's and 1940's, when the oceans and the solar cycle were in phases similar to what we saw between roughly 1995 and 2005. The point is, don't be so arrogant as to limit your research to the period of time during which you have blessed us all with your presence on this planet, Siloch.

As for your comparison of the relative percentages of change in CO2 and solar output...your assumption that both are responsible for equal forcing is overly simplistic.

In the context of your remarks, you claim that warming continues unabated, when in fact, the earth has cooled slightly during the past 10 years or so, in direct conflict with the solutions produced by the IPCC's GCMs. Meanwhile, CO2 continues to rise. That's a disconnect that should give every scientist or pseudo-scientist pause, and set them off on a research endeavor to the "Dark Side" of Natural Variability. But then, that sort of heretic activity is strictly forbidden in the Book of Gore.

Lastly...for Yocal and your se
210

seanie,

12/02/2009 14:32:30
The earth has not cooled over the last 1o years.

Average temperature has risen over the last decade.

The last five years have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that.

The years this century are considerably warmer than any equivalent period in the instrumental temperature records.
211

Petem13,

Edinburgh 12/02/2009 14:33:53
Good grief...
If there is no such thing as the Greenhouse Effect then the CO2 nonsense means nothing as does the vast rubbish the alarmists talk about.

http://globalwarmingnot.blogtownhall.com/2009/02/03/greenhouse_theory_disproved_a_century_ago.thtml

No one has ever proved the the Greehouse Effect exists and as you'll see from the basic pyhsics it's impossible anyway. To quote the alarmists - why do you choose to know better then the experts and the scientific evidence?

I'd like to know how Seanie and his friends imagine life to be if their way forward was tried.

We must have secure and cheap power, we must have food for everyone on the planet we must have reasonable lifestyles. We all want a better environment although it's so much better than it was a few years ago.

If Seanie and his friends want to change the social aspect of our lives then they should stick to politics rather than using Gobal Warming as a decoy.

By the way. The Councils levy on SUVs etc. is ridiculous. Everyone pays far too much tax as it is. It's also immoral to sell parking spaces when there's no guaantee of people actuall being able to find one.
212

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 14:52:37
Petem13, Well said!!

Worse than that, if you take the non-tree-ring calculations of historical temeprature (tree-ring estimates are now discredited), you find that the 20th century warming is well within the normal variation of the climate.

The problem with the warmers are that they are in denial. They simply won't admit:

1. The climate is cooling this century
2. That every estimate they've made has been wrong (1.4-5.8C warming this century)
3. That the case for "unprecedented warming" has been blown apart now that tree growth has been shown to be self-adjusting so that with climate change the density of trees in a forest changes so that more or less trees grow and in the long-run trees are packed so they always grow at the same optimum rate irrespective of the climate.

I won't go as far as to say these deniers should be locked up, but they certainly should have all public funding withdrawn and should be allowed to call themselves scientists until they agree to abide by the normal standards of evidene required by science.
213

skiman,

n kingstown, ri 12/02/2009 14:54:09
Seanie 214

"The earth has not cooled over the past 10 years"...it most certainly has, verified by each of the 4 data sets upon which this conversation is based.

"The past fiveyears have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that." Patently false...again, based on the 4 data sets.

"The years this century are considerably warmer..." Before pounding your chest about this statement, please take into consideration the significant impact of urbanization on temperature records, (airports aren't out in the boondocks, as most were a generation or two ago) as well as data dropout (the precipitous loss of reporting stations in the past 20 years, most of which were rural locations), as well as human manipulation of data (James Hansen of NASA-GISS has been caught on a couple of occasions). If you are not aware of the impact of these matters on the surface data sets, please investigate. The satellite data set shows limited warming since those measurements started in 1979, with most of the warming attributable to the warm phase of the PDO during that period. During the past year, with the PDO now in its cold phase, satellite measured temps are back to roughly 1979 levels. Seanie...your warming claims are out to lunch....meanwhile, CO2 keeps rising...hmmmmmmm....
214

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 15:04:28
skiman,n kingstown, much as I hate to admit it, if you use the Hadcrut montly dataset and calculate the trend for 1999-2008 the trend is still warming by about 0.04C if I remember right.

However over that period the trend has peaked and is very definitely showing a downward trend now after a period of stability from 2001-6-ish.

Saying "it has warmed" in the last decade will of course confuse Seanie, who has only been trained to refute whatever is said, so no doubt he will now start agreeing with you!
215

Yocal,

12/02/2009 15:09:52
Capital_Jim said:

"There is no way human beings can change the climate. It is all about tax and control, look aat the people warning us about climate change - the government..."

Yocal:

I'm not a part of the 'government', in fact i don't think they are doing enough. So we must both be on the same side then!??!!?

I'm guessing you believe air conditioning is an act of god?!
216

Yocal,

12/02/2009 15:16:01
Isonomia said:

"However over that period the trend has peaked and is very definitely showing a downward trend now after a period of stability from 2001-6-ish."

Yocal:

So imagine yourself living around in the 1940s and looking at the trend. You have no idea what the future will be like, all you see is average temperatures dropping. But in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and noughties those temperature drops have been wiped out. (This is from memory of looking at the graphs).

The issue is long term trends.
217

Yocal,

12/02/2009 15:23:11
skiman (hoping for snow):

"Before pounding your chest about this statement, please take into consideration the significant impact of urbanization on temperature records"

Yocal:

Please consider the fact that this is a well known skeptic story that is totally out of date.
Please don't spread false beliefs and information, as lives are at stake, one day you'll end up in court.
218

eyeswider,

12/02/2009 15:23:33
I was just going to ignore this thread for my heart's sake but I cannot let this constant stream of propaganda based on mutual self-referential delegated coercion have a free pass.

Hadley/CRU (the Ministry of Defense) = Phil Jones (never has and says never will release the algorithm that adjusts their "data") (publishes papers with Michael Mann) - his work forms part of the basis for ipcc assessment reports.

NASA/GISS (the Pentagon) = James Hansen (refused for years to release the algorithm that adjusts the data - probably rightly as it is a real mess and obviously flawed many times over) (has become very rich by claiming we will all burn) (has been proven to have lied and been politically motivated and not scientific in his approach to climate and has flown to the UK to defend vandals) "Neither CRU nor NOAA have archived any source code for their calculations, so it is impossible to know for sure exactly what they do." NASA are worse.

tamino = Grant Foster (publishes papers with Michael Mann, gavin s, James Annan, etc etc)

realclimate = gavin schm idt and William Connolly and Michael Mann and Caspar Ammann to name a few. Oh yeah, a few work for NASA/GISS.

Yale(anything) = where Michael Mann got his degree - his work forms part of the basis of ipcc assessment reports.

Wikipedia (anything related to climate) = William Connolly (just try posting anything that goes against the religion and see who deleted it)

Round and round and round they go, each kissing the other where the sun doesn't shine. Which is why we call it "spin".

NONE OF THEM ALLOW DISSENT. They ALL delete, or edit, posts that inquire too deeply into their common fantasy that "anomalies" can only count when they are out of season or when they mesh with their hind casting models.

It is no surprise to me that the inflated pseudo scientists all over this newspaper's climate pieces continuously use these few people's opinion as "evidence" that CO2 has, is and somehow will warm our cl
219

eyeswider,

12/02/2009 15:23:56

It is no surprise to me that the inflated pseudo scientists all over this newspaper's climate pieces continuously use these few people's opinion as "evidence" that CO2 has, is and somehow will warm our climate. Throw us a frikken bone here.

THEY WOULD SAY THAT, WOULDN'T THEY. They all feed and clothe their families based on this fantasy. I am sure they are not biased.
220

Yocal,

12/02/2009 15:28:26
PeteM said:

"No one has ever proved the the Greehouse Effect exists..."

Yocal said:

This sort of statement actually makes the rest of your lengthy post absolutely pointless.
Even skeptic scientists know that the 'effect' exists!
You can do an experiment at school to show it.

Again, if you are going to express yourself, then do take some care to choose words wisely.
221

Yocal,

12/02/2009 15:41:00
Eyeswide (but head in sand) said:

"THEY WOULD SAY THAT, WOULDN'T THEY. They all feed and clothe their families based on this fantasy. I am sure they are not biased."

Yocal:

Is that why you say the things you do?
Easy to have a go at someone if you know it is unlikely they will respond isn't it.

So if they weren't paid anything and they still gave you the same answer, you would believe them?

I guess you wouldn't.
222

eyeswider,

12/02/2009 15:44:59
Graphs? We don't need no steenkin' graphs....

http://www.climate4you.com/ClimateReflections.htm#20080911: Is the global temperature increase 1981-2005 unique compared to the general temperature rise since the end of the Little Ice Age

Tiny URL - http://tinyurl.com/bmkota

here:

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Carboniferous_climate.html

"Earth's atmosphere today contains about 380 ppm CO2 (0.038%). Compared to former geologic times, our present atmosphere, like the Late Carboniferous atmosphere, is CO2- impoverished! In the last 600 million years of Earth's history only the Carboniferous Period and our present age, the Quaternary Period, have witnessed CO2 levels less than 400 ppm."

here:

http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/arctic-sea-ice-increases-at-record-rate/#more-2095

and here:

http://digitaldiatribes.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/deconstructing-the-hadcrut-data/

Funny how they all resolve to sine waves. Natural variation one would guess.

But then I also guess they will be too dissonant for the religious ideologues on-board the AGW gravy train because all the above people are using the raw data and not knitting a straw man's hat out of spaghetti.

Half the people quoted above are banned from realclimate by the way.
223

seanie,

12/02/2009 15:48:19
"The earth has not cooled over the past 10 years"...it most certainly has, verified by each of the 4 data sets upon which this conversation is based."

You're lying.

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1999/to:2008/trend/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1999/to:2008

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:1999/to:2008/trend/plot/gistemp/from:1999/to:2008/plot/none

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/from:1999/to:2008/trend/plot/uah/from:1999/to:2008

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1999/to:2008/trend/plot/rss/from:1999/to:2008
224

Yocal,

12/02/2009 15:49:28
PeteM13 said:

"I'd like to know how Seanie and his friends imagine life to be if their way forward was tried.

We must have secure and cheap power, we must have food for everyone on the planet we must have reasonable lifestyles."

Yocal said:

1. Secure power?
What is that exactly.
Do you imagine the earth is infinite.

2. We?
Who is we?
Your generation or 10 generations in the future?
Are you thinking about your comforts or are you refering to 'we' as humanity for all time?

3. Why do you think we 'must' have these things?

Your views about the subject are determined by your desires. You can tell from the language you use. The words 'secure', 'must', 'cheap' all indicate that your main concern is yourself and any immediate needs.

You aren't really thinking about 'we'.

225

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 15:50:18
Yokel "Even skeptic scientists know that the 'effect' exists! You can do an experiment at school to show it. Again, if you are going to express yourself, then do take some care to choose words wise"

Yokel, welcome to the side of science not propaganda. Now all I need to do is get you to really examine the evidence:

1. Look at the historical temperature record: http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/AGW/Loehle/Loehle_McC_E&E_2008.pdf

Then tell me that the upswing at the end of the 20th century is "unprecedented" or is it as I'm sure you will agree "within the normal variation of the climate".

2. Now go and search for all that supposed evidence to support a link between CO2 and "manmade warming", and I really do urge you to read the original papers (if you can find any) because it's not until you read just what lies behind this whole mess that you'll really have to change your mind.

3. I won't mention the present cooling, nor the failed IPCC predictions or the Met Office predictions, because if you are a scientist you'll not be impressed ... only those who don't understand science get worried by 8 years cooling!
226

seanie,

12/02/2009 15:51:28
"The past fiveyears have been warmer than the five before them, which in turn were warmer than the five before that." Patently false...again, based on the 4 data sets."

Again you're lying.

The GISS anomalies;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

The anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.38
1999-2003: + 0.45
2004-2008: + 0.53

The most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.

227

seanie,

12/02/2009 15:52:19
The HADCRU anolmalies;

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt

The anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.296
1999-2003: + 0.382
2004-2008: + 0.416

The most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.
228

eyeswider,

12/02/2009 15:54:20
"Yocal:

Is that why you say the things you do?
Easy to have a go at someone if you know it is unlikely they will respond isn't it."

See just how easy it is. It makes you seem disfunctional.

The science is settled. There is no argument. Gore bans journalists although I cannot think why as they are all paid to agree with his bs. Hansen wants anyone who disagrees with him to be gaoled. Seems eminently fair to me.


I would love just one afternoon in court with Jones, Hansen and Gore. The lapdogs like gavin and tamino could be in the gallery for all I care so long as the lawyers and the judge demand some evidence for their frothing at the mouth prognostications of CO2 doom.

Shouting fire in a crowded theatre is a criminal offence with severe penalties.

Let us see which faction ends up there shall we.

Carry on ignoring the other side's product. Head in the sand indeed.
229

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 15:59:02
Hang on Eyewider, Yocal's said he bases his views on science, and if he is a scientist he will go and look at the evidence rather than what people like Beanie keep saying, and he will change his belief ... it is not possible to look at the evidence and still believe in global warming.

So give Yocal a bit of slack he will come round!
230

seanie,

12/02/2009 16:00:51
The principal prediction of AGW is that average temperatures should rise as CO2 concentration continues to increase.

It has and it will.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It's physical properties and role as such have been accepted science for over a century. From memory, since about 1860.

CO2 levels have risen signifcantly since the onset of industrialisation; from around 280ppm to around 385ppm. There is no scientific dispute on this.

That increase is due to human activity. We know this from the entirely uncontroversial fact that burning fossil fuels creates CO2, and the equally obvious fact that we've been burning a lot of fossil fuels since the onset of industrialisation.

The isotopic signature of CO2 in the atmosphere also confirms this.

That an increase in C02 should generally lead to an increase in temperature is not some wild and extravagant speculation. It's exactly what accepted scientific understanding tells us to expect.

It might be possible that there is some completely unknown and as yet to be discovered mechanism that is responsible for the warming trend. But that seems unlikely since we'd also have discover some hitherto completely unknown reason why the increase in CO2 isn't causing it.

Because basic physics tells us IT SHOULD BE.
231

Porry,

12/02/2009 16:03:22
Small wonder that temperatures in the Jurassic period were high. Just think of all the big dinosaurs that couldn't keep their hind gates under control and therefore kept greenhousing the environment. Nothing but hot air! What relief when they all got extinct and cooling-down to "normal levels" became possible again. Tax-free developments, unbelievable!
232

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 16:14:55
Beanie, do you get paid by the word or by the post by greenspin?
233

eyeswider,

12/02/2009 16:16:38
http://wattsupwiththat.com

Front page right -

This is what the green weeds do everywhere.

They are incapable of joined up thinking, let alone joined up policy.

It is no wonder to me that these creatures are disliked by the people they see as lice infesting their pristine world.

Environmentalism is dead thanks to them. The "new green alternative fueled future" is probably stillborn as well because they have worshiped a false god and pushed the boat out too soon.

CO2 is not a, the or even the worst problem. The industries getting a free pass to pump real pollution and humanity endangering substances into the air we breath in are laughing as we argue about a trace gas that is probably at dangerously low levels, definitely not "greenhousing" us as much as water vapor does and is breathed out by all the heroes and villains of this piece.

The greens have, in effect, despoiled nature as they pander to the stupidity of the majority, wasted precious resources as they dive for the trough of funding and blindly obey their, frankly nasty, "leaders" who all laugh while their victims do their bidding and people die needlessly.

They are the exact opposite of that which they claim to be. I wouldn't wonder if CO2 turns out to be the same.
234

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 16:33:12
Eyeswider, "It is no wonder to me that these creatures are disliked by the people they see as lice infesting their pristine world."

Whilst a lot of what the greens say is complete hysterical pink nonsense, they do haver a point about overpopulation. The simmple fact is that we've been consuming resources at a rate which means many of the best resources are running out.

Modern Agriculture, requires huge inputs of energy resource in the form of fertilisers, pesticides, transport and I was even told that to run a farm purely on bio-diesel, half the crop would go to run the farm machinery!

The biggest problem with this global warming myth is that the greens keep telling everyone "there are so many resources in the world, that the biggest problem we face is having far too many resources".

The real facts are that oil and gas will run out. It is said that there never was a war that wasn't primarily about energy (Iraq!) and if don't get rid of this global warming myth and seriously start working out how many people we can realistically keep in the manner I am very happy to keep, we will find ourselves going to war over energy supplies in the near future (again)

The biggest lie of the Greens is that "there is far too many resources to worry about them running out".idiots.
235

eyeswider,

12/02/2009 16:41:44
Isonomia,

None of these types are interested in the science, or the lack of it. They are interested in control.

If they were not they would have to analyze their own ravings and examine their own motives and then where would they be?

You and I know the world has been here before. You and I know that for the BILLIONS spent on global warming research there is NO-ONE ANYWHERE with the killer app, the knockout punch, the damning truth. The put-the-baby-to-bed argument ending evidence that shows an engineer how to mitigate CO2s effect by showing the ACTUAL EFFECT to begin with.

We could all just go home. Some of us would be chagrined and some elated, but at least we would see a result for all the, thus far, wasted time and money and we could rest safely in our beds comforted in the certainty that the governments of this world really care about the individuals over whom they rule and NOT the industries that payroll them.
236

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 17:13:20
Eyeswider: "If they were not they would have to analyze their own ravings and examine their own motives and then where would they be?"

That's a very valid point with a lot of greens. Particularly the ones who are green to salve their own conscience because they feel guilty at their consumption and what to sooth their conscience by forcing everyone else to cut back.

My problem is that, I seriously don't think there are enough resources to sustain the present world population. OK, I'd want to do a thorough audit of our resources, but personally, I'd rather have some kind of population control than all be walking around in hemp clothing eating beans.

If you accept that there is a finite population that can be sustained by the resource of this planet, and you notice that a few very key ones like oil and gas are about to run out, then it's pretty obvious we really won't have a choice about cutting world population. We might be able to choose whether to do it in a controlled manner by birth control, but if we don't then it'll happen some other way either through disease, or more likely by that mainstay of population control: war.

Which to be honest makes me a bit miffed, because barring ULabour's encouragement for immigration, we in the UK have been holding in our urges and keeping the population down, so I don't see why those nations who seem unable to tell a condom from a party balloon should wreck it for the rest of us.

But neither do I like the idea of these idiot we have in Westminser having any say what-so-ever on population numbers, because as you say it will be used as a form of big-brother control of society.
237

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 18:37:41
The debate on the environment and the effects should be an entirely scientific one based on the facts. It's noticeable however how many of the so-called 'global warming skeptics' are instead motivated by a dislike of different social groups who they perceive to be on the side of the 'pro global warming' theory (for want of a better term). Hence their language is littered with terms such as 'greenies' and 'loony-lefties' etc. When people use such terms, I tend to be more likely to dismiss any opinions on science they might come out with.
238

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 18:46:15
Newton_invented_gravy: "When people use such terms, I tend to be more likely to dismiss any opinions on science they might come out with." ... it's a sign of affection!
239

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 18:51:44
'it's a sign of affection!'

Well, I don't think you really believe that yourself. But what it's a sign of is that we're not having a debate on science, we're having and argument based along political tribalism.
240

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 18:54:35
Sorry I meant affliction.

Yes, let base it on the science, like the science that has discredited the estimations of historic temperature using tree-rings because the rate of tree ring growth changes as the density of trees in a forest self-adjusts to cope with climate change resulting in very little long term change to tree growth and so the apparent stability of historic climate which has now been shown to be false using better proxies.

Put simply, the science clearly shows the 20th century warming to be warming like any other warming of the climate and well within the normal variability.

The balance of scientific evidence is now against Manmade global warming!
241

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

12/02/2009 19:00:53
I think you should take part in the scientific debates, but if you allow your political biases to be so visible as they are in this forum, they simply will not take you seriously.
242

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 19:28:35
Newton_invented_gravy. Science doesn't debate, it experiments. I'm happy to debate politics, but I'm not happy to see the good name of science being abused by certain groups for their narrow political agenda .... or worse still and by far the biggest factor amongst the global warmers for money.

But, still you've got the right approach, and like me, I'm sure you will go and look for yourself to see what actual evidence exists. The key things you should try to find are the original scientific papers linking manmade CO2 to warming (don't be surprised if you find them difficult to find .... you'll understand why if you find them!) the other thing that is well worth a look is the paper: http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/AGW/Loehle/Loehle_McC_E&E_2008.pdf

I suppose the other thing which may help you decide whether you can trust what is being written is to check out as many "information sites" on global warming and see how many mention the unquestionned benefit of a warming climate which is less winter deaths. (Age concern estimate around 23,000 people die of cold each year in the UK). No one will dispute this benefit, so any unbiased "information" on global warming would mention the benefit as well as the drawbacks of a warmer climate. SEE HOWMANY mention this obvious benefit and then come back and tell me how many "information" sites telling everyone the world will be warming are unbiased in their "information".
243

seanie,

12/02/2009 19:29:48
The science supporting AGW is pretty overwhelming, from the basic physics that's been accepted science for over a century, to an array of observation and evidence.

Which is why every national and international scientific institution of any relevant standing affirms it.

When average temperatures continue to rise, as they will, at what point are the denialists going to give in to reality?

244

seanie,

12/02/2009 19:32:20
There's a big problem looming for you denialists.

1998 was exceptionally warm in comparison to the preceeding years due to an exceptionally strong El Nino. However the temperature of 1998 isn't so exceptional in comparison to the last few years. The continuing upwards trend in average temperature means that some years have been close to (and possibly hotter than) 1998 in the absence of a strong El Nino.

A strong La Nina developed in 2007 into 2008, resulting in 2008 being relatively cold in comparison to recent years, although still one of the warmest years on record.

The thing is, at some point within the next few years an El Nino event is pretty likely. And given that we're starting from a higher average even a moderate El Nino could decisively surpass the 1998 temperature.

At which point you'll have to abandon your 'global warming stopped in 1998' mantra and pick this new year as the point global warming stopped.

Up until the next peak.

And so on and so forth.

It'll take an increasingly bizarre denial of reality for you to ignore the ongoing upwards trend in average temperature.
245

seanie,

12/02/2009 19:33:47
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/you-bet/

Could 2015 be the crunch point?
246

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 19:45:23
Beenie: "The science supporting AGW is pretty overwhelming" yep like the smell of a red-herring fish factory
247

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 20:04:59
Will someone please save me from this madmad?

Beenie, why don't I join your madness.

I shall postulate a new climate phenomena which gives us cold weather in what I shall call a "El Snowy" event and another "La sunny" event. I shall now say that the underlying trend is that we are getting warmer except for the fact we are in an "El Snowy" event which is depressing temperatures, but when we get out of the "El Snowy" event, the temperatures will continue to rise (although that will only be apparent to the high priests of the El Snowy religion who are the only ones the gods permit to understand the true nature of the ....

As I said, it looks like red-herring, it smells like red-herring and my god ... it is a red herring!
248

not_just_now,

Subarushire 12/02/2009 21:21:21
Yocal - in #212 you suggest that I inaccurately quoted the Met Office regarding their prediction for the winter of 2008-09. I said (originally in post #4): "Their models are seriously flawed (this year the Met office predicted a "milder then average winter for the UK..."

I was paraphrasing from the Met Office's press release of 25th September 2008, in which the headline is:

"Trend of mild winters continues" and the first sentence reads: "The Met Office forecast for the coming winter suggests it is, once again, likely to be milder than average".

You can read the full press release at http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2008/pr20080925.html . It seems to me that the only thing I got wrong was the typo - writing 'then' instead of 'than' in my first post.
249

not_just_now,

Subarushire 12/02/2009 22:27:41

Yocal - I have just seen that the rest of your comments in #212 were aimed at me:

Yocal said: "Why do you believe short term weather predictions are important when considering long term trends?" You make assumptions which imply that you know how they should work or that you know the connections between short term weather and long term climate. Maybe you can state why you know and if so maybe you should be doing your own research."

- I didn't make any assumptions. All I said was that if the Met Office can't get a 3 month forecast right how can they (or we) be confident that their longer term climate change models are to be trusted?

Yocal said "If you don't have answers, then your real reason for being 'against' climate change research is because you just don't want to know. Otherwise leave the scientists to do the job and you get on with your job."

- I never said I was against any research into climate change. You seem to be reading much more into what little I did say (a common trait for CO2 disciples?) And I can assure you that I do want to know what the main drivers are for climate change. I just don't think that putting it all down to CO2 levels is the right answer. As I said, the official CO2 theory will remain a theory, until it is proven, no matter how many politicians and career scientists jump on the bandwagon in the meantime. And you by arrogantly asserting that I have no right to take an interest in this debate show that your true colours are more political rather than scientific. A good scientist would at least welcome the debate, rather than vilify people like me. I note that none of the alarmists on this long thread have commented on or apologised for Duncan McLaren's outrageous attack on Dr Buckee.
250

Isonomia,

Lenzie 12/02/2009 22:28:41
Not_Just_Now, the Met Office are making a habit of predicting temperature far warmer than actually happens, and it must be down to bias in the model ... a warming bias which isn't there!

There's a petition asking the Met Office to stop this kind of nonsense on the No.10 website: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/MetOffice/

If enough people sign, perhaps the Met Office will mend their ways and stop peddling this global warming nonsense!
251

Allen01,

USA 12/02/2009 22:38:04
People like Buckee have been shown over and over why his numbers about the sun cycles are wrong -- yet they keep on going. It seems more like a mental illness. If you want an argument against C02 causation, this one is legitimate and arguable

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29086842/

Why it isn't the sun:


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11650-climate-myths-global-warming-is-down-to-the-sun-not-humans.html

Obviously climatologists take the suns varying cycles into effect -- did you really think they'd be so stupid as to not do that? Come on folks! Think! IMHO, Buckee is a Kookee.
252

seanie,

12/02/2009 22:38:10
Signing a petition isn't going to have much effect on the ongoing increase in average global temprature.

Remember...

The most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.

The warming continues.
253

Yocal,

12/02/2009 22:43:10
not-just-now said quoted:

"The Met Office forecast for the coming winter suggests it is, once again, likely to be milder than average"

Yocal:

The prediction was accurate, since the average is over the time that records are kept.

I suggest that they aren't making predictions based on the average winter during your life time or less.

Also you have not quoted the full forecast and as such the word 'milder' has a broader context that is open to interpretation. That is if someone read the full forecast the interpretation would be different.

The trouble is you are classically imposing your own interpretation on a cherry picked sentence.

Later in that forecast the state:

"In contrast to last year's exceptionally mild winter, this year is likely to feel somewhat colder and although the forecast of a milder winter is good news, we should still be prepared for the risk of colder spells at times."

eg. you have read what you want to read.
Derrida would not be surprised!
254

Allen01,

USA 12/02/2009 22:46:28
People have dropped their objection to both global warming and that it is human caused. Even Bush did, a while ago (See the BBC interview). You folks are simply the straggling remains of an oil company and Chinese government propaganda war that ended years ago. (China burns a lot of coal).

You're like those Japanese soldiers they find on South Seas islands, years after the war was over. You all come out, bank rocks together, and make a ruckus but... sorry, it's over.

Start reading legitimate articles by climate scientists if you're at all interested in the topic.
255

Yocal,

12/02/2009 22:53:56
not-just-now said:

"I didn't make any assumptions. All I said was that if the Met Office can't get a 3 month forecast right how can they (or we) be confident that their longer term climate change models are to be trusted?"

Yocal said:

Based on your evidence i wouldn't say that they have got a 3 month forecast all that wrong. They warned that the winter is likely to be colder than last year. that is correct. The fact that you cherry picked the first sentence just confirms what is well known about people and texts!

The other point is that if you don't understand the differences between long term climate forecasting and short term weather forecasting then you are hardly in the position to question the methods.
256

Hexy,

Colorado, USA 12/02/2009 23:03:05
I've seen write-ups on hundreds of prominent scientists, formerly alarmists, who have studied the latest evidence and are now skeptics. Have yet to hear of a single case of it going the other way: a skeptic deciding he was wrong and becoming an alarmist. Probably it's happened. Just haven't heard about it. So that WWII Pacific Island analogy is a good one, but I think it's the opposite. A dwindling number of alarmists are stuck on an island and it's getting lonelier by the week. (Not to worry, turns out the water actually ISN'T rising faster, so they'll be safe for as long as they wish to stay in isolation.)
257

Yocal,

12/02/2009 23:10:41
eyeswider:

"None of these types are interested in the science, or the lack of it. They are interested in control."

Yocal:

Well yes 'these types' are interested in science, that is why we pay attention to the scientists. Sorry if you feel left out, but somehow I don't think that includes you!
258

Yocal,

12/02/2009 23:17:30
I would like to point out that i have made a number of complaints here about 'eyeswider' and the language that this person uses.

I don't know what the Scotsman will do, but i don't think some of the references made about various groups of people are suitable. The removal of comments does not seem to be instantaneous so we will have to wait and see what happens.
259

not_just_now,

Subarushire 12/02/2009 23:19:14
Yocal (#257) wrote: "
I suggest that they aren't making predictions based on the average winter during your life time or less."

You are wrong again. It states in the notes of the Press Release "Forecasts are expressed as variations from 1971-2000 averages." As I was born in 1964 and I am still breathing that obviously means the period is shorter than my lifetime.

If you honestly think that the Met Office's headline:

"Trend of mild winters continues" and the first sentence: "The Met Office forecast for the coming winter suggests it is, once again, likely to be milder than average".

actually means that they were predicting a cold winter then there is not much I can do to help you.

Yocal then wrote: "The trouble is you are classically imposing your own interpretation on a cherry picked sentence."

No, I think I interpreted the Met Office's statement 100% correctly, and it is you who is trying to impose your own totally bizarre interpretation. But I'll leave that for others to judge. As for "cherry picking", I quoted the headline and first sentence of the press release. Their words not mine, and I would say an accurate summary of their winter 2008-09 prediction. What more can I say? Please don't reply. I have better things to do with what's left of my life.
260

Yocal,

12/02/2009 23:34:35
Isonomia said

"Yokel "Even skeptic scientists know that the 'effect' exists! You can do an experiment at school to show it. Again, if you are going to express yourself, then do take some care to choose words wise"

Yokel, welcome to the side of science not propaganda. Now all I need to do is get you to really examine the evidence...etc"



Yocal said:

I don't like repeating posts but in response to the comment "No one has ever proved the the Greehouse Effect exists..." I actually wrote in full:


"This sort of statement actually makes the rest of your lengthy post absolutely pointless.
Even skeptic scientists know that the 'effect' exists!
You can do an experiment at school to show it.

Again, if you are going to express yourself, then do take some care to choose words wisely."



The point i made is that the greenhouse effect is well known and can be fully verified using simple equipment in schools. The original poster was quite specific about what was being referred to. I suggest that you try reading before you write.
261

Yocal,

12/02/2009 23:54:28
not_just_now said:

"You are wrong again. It states in the notes of the Press Release "Forecasts are expressed as variations from 1971-2000 averages." As I was born in 1964 and I am still breathing that obviously means the period is shorter than my lifetime."



Yocal said:

Actually, the notes do not say that.

Quote from the note:

"The 1971 to 2000 average winter temperature for the UK is 3.7 °C"

And as i pointed out the full forecast includes the line:

"In contrast to last year's exceptionally mild winter, this year is likely to feel somewhat colder and although the forecast of a milder winter is good news, we should still be prepared for the risk of colder spells at times."

That suggests that they thought there was a probability of colder weather. That is what what happened.


not_just_now said:

"No, I think I interpreted the Met Office's statement 100% correctly, and it is you who is trying to impose your own totally bizarre interpretation."

Yocal said:

That isn't actually possible with language. Interpretation of any sentence is dependent on the person reading it.
262

Aggrieved Taxpayer 2,

East Kilbride 13/02/2009 02:04:22
Glad that Yocal sorted that one out.

I am not an Aggrieved Taxpayer.
263

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 02:24:40
#somewhere upthread from here - Yocal:

"I would like to point out that i have made a number of complaints here about 'eyeswider' and the language that this person uses."

How very grown-up of you. Please miss, eyeswide said stuff I don't like. Dissonance is a word in common usage - if you cannot handle it, its meaning or its effects then I suggest it is time for you to get out of the kitchen.

"Yocal:

Well yes 'these types' are interested in science, that is why we pay attention to the scientists. Sorry if you feel left out, but somehow I don't think that includes you!"

And here I was thinking you were ignoring me and my links to some of that science stuff. Oh no, it was just my links, or maybe their content. Eminently scientific of you.
264

not_just_now,

Subarushire 13/02/2009 08:56:54
Yocal (#265). I repeat: In my initial post (#4) I stated "...this year the Met office predicted a milder than average winter for the UK" as an example of how forecasts and models can be wrong.

I was quoting from the Met Office's press release of 25th September 2008, in which the headline is:

"Trend of mild winters continues" and the first sentence reads: "The Met Office forecast for the coming winter suggests it is, once again, likely to be milder than average".

You can read the full press release at http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2008/pr20080925.html .

It is clear from reading this press release that they are using the period 1971 to 2001 as the reference for their averages, and this is confirmed if you click on the link for the updated winter forecast (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/seasonal/winter2008_9/), where it states in the notes: "Forecasts are expressed as variations from 1971-2000 averages."

You may wish to interpret and twist these facts any way you like, and even argue that they were actually predicting a cold winter, but please do so on another forum, preferably where there are professional psychiatrists present.

I think I have now experienced at first hand what many scientists who doubt the anthropgenic global warming theory have come up against - illogical and unscientific thinking from intransigent and dogmatic individuals, who display a shocking inability to correctly interpret real world data.
265

TheAnalyst-JAK,

Washington, D.C. 13/02/2009 09:55:57
I find it quite ludicrous in nature that someone touting themselves as a "Climate Expert" (i.e., Duncan McLaren), uses the IPCC as their source of data, and manipulates it into an ensuing claim for their very own cause-worthy recognition.



I myself performed Research with the Climatological Observatory (Containing the Base Line Station for the CMDL (Climate Monitoring and Diagnostics Laboratory) ), on Mauna Loa, HI 10 Years Ago. I also kept in close correspondence with Climatologists from the United States Geological Observatory, the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration, and various other Meteorological Agencies as well as Climatologists (Including the "Alert Station", in Alert, NWT). At the time, there did appear to be a Correspondence between CO2 Levels, and Mean Temperature Rise over a Decades Long Period. However, this was such a Minimal Scope of Testing compared to what is necessary in order to ordain a truly Global Law (As opposed to a Theory), that further research was deemed actively ongoing, and necessary. Before the actual Scientists could go about such investigations into the Anthropogenic (Human) effect on Global Climate, the Politicians and Bleeding Bureaucrats took over.



This is the major issue at hand, more so than anything else, and that is the immense danger of Politicizing Science. From the days when Solar-Centric Astronomers (i.e., Heliocentrists) could be tossed into jail for heresy; to Hitler's "Scientific Reports" on the superiority of the Aryan Race; followed by the Jim Crow era of "Scientific Findings" upon the Biologically based inferiority of Black Americans; Science, when Manipulated by Politics, can display ANY results which the Grantee deems necessary in order to support their ulterior motives.



You must also realize that "Human Induced Global Warming", and "Climate Change", have now been twisted into Political Platforms the Globe over. Politicians now base entire Parties/Organizations off of this vague subject
266

TheAnalyst-JAK,

Washington, D.C. 13/02/2009 09:57:56
....matter, and Elections have recently become marked with Candidates accusing one another of "Not Being 'Green' ". In the long run however, it is nothing more than the Politicians way of attempting to subvert their populace into complete submission. In the United States for instance, they have banned Asthma Inhalers in the State of California, for they stated that these Medical Devices "Contribute far too much CO2 towards 'Global Warming' ". Incandescent Light-bulbs are set to be banned in 2014, and in California yet again, certain towns have forced households to submit to a Government controlled home Thermostat system (The Government controlled entity sets YOUR Interior Home Climate depending upon THEIR preferences. It matters little if you happen to be from Equatorial Africa, or Sub-Arctic Iceland). As a matter of fact, this recent "Stimulus Bill" being pushed forth by the current White House Administration, as well as both the Upper and Lower Houses of Congress, includes such laughable (yet quite disturbing) line items as an allocation of $5,000 per dwelling unit, in order to install these "Controlled Thermostats" the Nation over. They dub such actions: "Weatherization". They are also allocating BILLIONS of U.S. Dollars towards the idea of making Federal, Commercial, and Private Buildings "More 'Green' ".



So many people dwell upon and believe issues such as the "Military Industrial Complex" (which I share no opinion of), but I ask, have you same individuals ever pondered the idea of a "Green Industrial Complex"? In other words, once a Natural Phenomenon has been observed, and twisted into a man-made cause of epic proportions, what is to stop the Politicians from implementing nearly anything they wish (Including allowing Corporations to profit from the passage of Junk based Legislation, at the expense of the Tax Paying Constituent) while the populace is going hysteric over the "Destruction of Our Earth"? This preponderance of absurdity rings fairly reminis
267

TheAnalyst-JAK,

Washington, D.C. 13/02/2009 09:58:45
....reminiscent of the "Salem Witch Trials" of 1692.



The bottom line however, is that there exists more proof towards the Solar aspect of Climate Effects, as opposed to the Anthropogenic aspect. The Climate of Earth has been through SEVERE fluctuations all throughout its very Existence, and as a simple example, how many of you know that Greenland was in fact Green before the 1600's? That is correct, Greenland did not become inundated with Ice until the Relatively Minor Ice Age of the 17th-18th Centuries.



I must also state that Dr. Jim Buckee's theory has actually been partially proven already. A Helio Astronomer, whose particular name escapes me at the moment, did in fact conduct Solar Observations over quite a long period of time. What they in fact discovered, is that when the Sun goes into Periods of Surface Dormancy (As Now), that its UV and Temperature Output Might Decrease, but its Gamma Ray Output INCREASES.



Also, I must add that various scientists in the United States have begun to have their voices heard, upon the doubts of Anthropogenic Global Warming. One Glaciologist, at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, Geophysical Institute, in fact corrected a hyped claim recently. A "Scientist" decided to fly a plane over Glaciers, and using a Laser based leveling device (Similar to what Surveyors use), he concluded that Alaska's Glaciers have lost a "Tremendous" amount of their Coverage. However, the Glaciologist at the Geophysical Institute, UAF, discovered that MANY Glaciers, especially at their Higher Elevation Sources, had in fact GAINED ground and thickness. He studied and calculated the entire findings, from both the Institute's Studies, and the Pilot "Scientist's" observations, and it was concluded that Alaska had in fact made a NET GAIN in terms of Glacial Coverage.



On another note, at a Major Convention of Thousands of Scientists in San Francisco, CA (The American Geophysical Union), someone brought forth the "Alarming claim"
268

TheAnalyst-JAK,

Washington, D.C. 13/02/2009 09:59:33
....that Barrow, AK had as of recent been recording Average Temperatures 4 Degrees Fahrenheit above what was being observed years ago. Then, a Scientist from the University of Montana came forth with the most damning and common sensed observation yet seen in this entire debate, when she calmly noted: "Maybe it has to do with the fact that the Monitoring Station was moved from the sparsely populated Coastline, INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE AIRPORT"! [My own emphasis added].



Another Scientist from the University of Washington's Polar Science Center was studying the "Lessening of Ice Coverage" in the Arctic Ocean, and even he blatantly stated: "I thought if we were going to use terminology like ‘trajectory’ we ought to have some kind of mathematical model to demonstrate what we were talking about,” he said. “We also don't know how much of the recent trend is human-forced [or natural]". A Marine Scientist (Oceanographer) from the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, Geophysical Institute, was observing Oceanic Current Monitoring stations lowered into the Entrance of the Arctic Oceanic Basin. One day in 1998 they Recorded an Extremely Warm Blast of Current entering the Basin near Norway at around 1000 Feet Down. They contacted other Institutes around the Polar Region, and they Monitored it throughout the entire Arctic Basin. Then, it reached the Laptev Sea Section of the Arctic Basin (Around Siberia) in 2004. If it continues its Most Likely course, it will eventually Exit the Arctic Basin near Greenland (Where, in the Greenland Basin, Warmer Currents are typically dragged down into Greater Depths, and Formulated into a Deep Cold Water Column) in the Near Future (Possibly as soon as 2010). Thus, it was concluded that the Currents of any Particular Phase Enter and Circulate within the Arctic Ocean Basin for Numerous Years at a time. So if you receive a Warmer Current Section, the Arctic Ocean may Warm for 6 Years +. However, when a Cooler Current makes its entrance, it will th
269

TheAnalyst-JAK,

Washington, D.C. 13/02/2009 10:00:24
....then Cool the Arctic Basin down for 6 Years +. The section of the Arctic Ocean where the NSIDC (National Snow Ice Data Center) displayed the greatest Summer Ice Loss in 2007/2008, in fact correlated to the passage of this Particular Current Phase in the Canadian Basin Depths (The Canada Basin is the shallowest of all Major Basins within the Arctic Oceanic Basin System. It contains the Warmest Average Water Temperatures, of the entire Arctic Ocean Basin, down to its Very Floor located at around 1000 Feet). Even as recently as 1997, Scientists had still not yet determined (nor fully understood) the relationship between Oceanic Currents, and the Global Climate. To this very day, the Studies Continue.



"Human Induced Global Warming" is nothing more than a Scientific Cop-out of the greatest proportions. Instead of Scientifically Analyzing, Studying, and Researching the Particulars of our Earth, such as Oceanic Currents, Jet Stream Flow, Weather Patterns, Solar Cycles, Deep Space Radiation, Orbital Patterns, Drought/Flood Cycles, Atmospheric Composition, Volcanic/Deep Sea Emissions, and So Forth, EVERYTHING is now just CLUMPED together into the Ever Expanding Folder dubbed "Human Induced by Carbon Emissions". This is PATHETIC. These Greedy Grant Grabbing scum are nothing more than Pseudo-Scientists, who have completely and forever bastardized the Field of Science. They are a complete Abomination.

270

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 10:05:59
TheAnalyst-JAK -

Please don't beat around the bush. Say what you really mean.

sarcasm off ;-)
271

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 10:06:59
"Yocal said:

That isn't actually possible with language. Interpretation of any sentence is dependent on the person reading it."

In whose closeted corner of a contracting universe does that apply?

If it were true your coming in here is pointless. You are arguing with yourself.

Thankfully it is incorrigible nonsense.Failure to interpret what is communicated is for some reason. You fail to empathize with the subject or you fail to comprehend the meaning of the whole, or part thereof, of the message. You fail to join your previous experience of the ideas or methods described to those of the narrator. Your cognition is impaired.
272

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 10:08:25
The whole point of the Latin based English tongue, replete with vocabulary borrowed and stolen from everywhere, is that, with a suitable allowance for patience, it brooks no ambiguity. If one expends enough energy upon one's description and is willing to delve deeply enough in the face of both purposeful avoidance and genuine misunderstanding one may recreate anything with words, from a religious experience to an arcane blemish on the backside of a hysterical evangelist's hypothesis. From words alone. Even merely the written. Even in here where tools to emphasize and inflect are none and gesture is invisible.
The whole point of language, and its child communication, is to trigger the same mental images and emotions in the recipient of the transmitted idea as were imagined and experienced by the originator.

Interpretation of our multiverse depends upon one's point of view but also upon a willingness to walk in another's moccasins for long enough to see _their_ point of view. Standing around going "la la la la" with your fingers in your ears whilst avoiding anything that jars with your particular focus and trying to stifle dissent or shout down the opposition based on the probably misguided belief that you are the only one who is right and you must be heard is equivalent hubris to claiming the science is settled and anyone who argues otherwise believes the earth is flat, Darwin was wrong and evil pixies caused the late 20th century warming.

As Insomnia stated earlier - your failure to investigate has lead you to barking up the wrong red herring. CO2 can not and will not cause catastrophic, runaway warming of disastrous consequence to any plants or animals here on our planet.

Anyone who thinks they "believe" differently is politically motivated to tax and control, investigatively incompetent, willfully ignorant (or purposefully evasive), religiously encumbered or extracting the urine. There is no gray area. You fall on one side of the fence. Or not.

Seems
273

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 10:08:45


Seems the editors can stomach my language even if your rhetoric and foot stamping makes us feel somewhat nauseous.

Almost makes me feel glad that my youngest woke me with her "scary dream". It seemed so real to her but after some comfort she went back to sleep. The fact that I couldn't do likewise has allowed me to read this thread again and reply with some whimsy that _your_ scary dream does not hold me in its thrall.
274

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 10:30:00
Now it is morning again and I am in fit mood.

If you think for one minute that what I say in here is not tempered far beyond my usual vernacular you are even more misguided and lost that I first assumed.

I am, in here, the epitome of patient and polite. I spent my life at sea bringing home your supper. I know weather from climate. I have had to to earn a living, preserve my vessels and, infinitely more importantly, prevent injury and death from occurring amongst my crews.

There has been no noticeable sea-level rise anywhere I have docked in the last 43 years. There has been nothing but a natural, chaotic, unchanging and mostly benevolent pattern to weather and climate during the same period.
275

Gettier,

13/02/2009 10:31:34
This whole climate scam is indeed very clever, because it has you all distracted and arguing among yourselves about whether it is man made or natural. As pointed out in the previous article there are so many holes in the IPCC's argument. However, there is a lot of credible evidence that suggests the climate is changing in different ways in different parts of the world.

Wake up everyone! The sunspot cycle is affecting the earth’s climate and actually poses the biggest threat to humanity ever, not in 50 years or 25 but over the next 4 or 5. You are being distracted from an impending humanitarian disaster because of our over reliance on technology and those in power know that it is too late to make a difference.

Both arguments, man-made global warming and Sunspot induced cooling both cleverly take the attention away from the fact the sun getting ready to unleash a barrage of geomagnetic flares on earth the will in turn take out our power grids and leave you with no jobs, no water, no medical, no food supplies etc .

The powers at large know this and are busy making there preparations to save themselves and are the same time distracting you from the truth. Your all like tourists sitting on the beach waiting for the Tsunami to hit.

POWER GRIDS IN PERIL:
http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=07&month=01&year=2009

Sun Unleashes Record Superflare, Earth Dodges Solar Bullet
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/04/010404081121.htm

Sunspots reaching 1,000-year high
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3869753.stm

The truth about global warming - it’s the Sun that’s to blame
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/3325679/The-truth-about-global-warming—it’s-the-Sun-that’s-to-blame.html

Scientists Issue Unprecedented Forecast of Next Sunspot Cycle
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2006/sunspot.shtml

Magnetic-Shield Cracks Found; Big Solar Storms Expected
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20
276

seanie,

13/02/2009 11:18:31
A barrage of geomagnetic flares you say?

Don't worry.

Your tin foil hat will protect you.
277

Yocal,

13/02/2009 11:28:18
eyeswide said:

"I am, in here, the epitome of patient and polite. I spent my life at sea bringing home your supper. I know weather from climate. I have had to to earn a living, preserve my vessels and, infinitely more importantly, prevent injury and death from occurring amongst my crews."

Yocal:

I think now we see why you have problems with the science. It isn't unusual that someone with 'experience' would disagree with scientists.

Also thank you for confirming your amateur status regarding science.



eyeswide said:

"There has been no noticeable sea-level rise anywhere I have docked in the last 43 years. There has been nothing but a natural, chaotic, unchanging and mostly benevolent pattern to weather and climate during the same period."

Yocal:

Again, anecdotal evidence that is baseless.
No human being is likely to notice the small sea level rises that have occured over 40 or more years. That is the problem with humans and the climate, the time scales are different.

I haven't either noticed sea levels rising either, but then i'm not stupid enough to depend on my memory!
278

Yocal,

13/02/2009 11:31:12
Gettier said:

"This whole climate scam is indeed very clever, because it has you all distracted and arguing among yourselves about whether it is man made or natural."

Yocal:

I'm afraid you are deluding yourself if you think these discussions have any relevance. We aren't arguing over anything. The wheels are in motion and the little discussions here are sideshows!
279

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 13/02/2009 11:54:45
#279 Gettier

"The powers at large know this and are busy making there preparations to save themselves"

The conspiracy theorists are wonderful (wonderful, that is, in the sense of Stephen J Gould's book "Wonderful Life" ie. really weird). You should get together with Eyeswide, Gettier, you could sit and fulminate together.

As Malcolm Rifkind (former Scottish Secretary of State)once said, "If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance."
280

Gettier,

13/02/2009 11:56:42
Yocal: it's all connected, have you heard the story of smith and jones (google it!)

Seanie good luck mate:

POWER GRIDS IN PERIL: The National Academy of Sciences has released an important new report detailing how geomagnetic storms could damage the infrastructure of modern society. An area of particular vulnerability is power grids. Ground currents induced during century-class storms can melt the huge, multi-ton transformers at the heart of power distribution systems. Because modern power grids are interconnected, a cascade of failures could sweep across the country, rapidly cutting power to tens or even hundreds of millions of people:

According to the report, "impacts would be felt on interdependent infrastructures with, for example, potable water distribution affected within several hours; perishable foods and medications lost in 12-24 hours; immediate or eventual loss of heating/air conditioning, sewage disposal, phone service, transportation, fuel resupply and so on." Melted transformers can take months to repair or replace--so a single extreme storm could make itself felt long after solar activity subsides. Nothing, it seems, is immune from space weather. (audio)
Full report: Severe Space Weather Events--Understanding Societal and Economic Impacts (National Academy of Sciences)
281

Isonomia,

Lenzie 13/02/2009 13:48:49
Now that the mainstay of the global warming myth has been demolished because tree-ring estimates of historical temperature don't show the historical variability any historian will tell you about (GREENLAND = GREEN-LAND) What I still can't understand is why the global warmers didn't do more with earthquakes.

It can't have been that difficult to find some statistics of earthquakes showing an increase, afterall its not till the modern era of communications taht we've got to know what happens in many places, and like the Antartic "warming", I'm sure they could have "interpolated" some data to give a general upward trend for earthquakes.

And personally, I think the rate of earthquakes should increase if warming happens. Afterall, if you've got two different materials and they expand at different rates, there has got to be differential movement which is all an earthquake is.

I really was looking forward to the day the sun splashed on its cover: "Global warming shakes"
282

Gettier,

13/02/2009 13:53:07
# 283 Slioch

Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices.
- Laurence J. Peter

"Good teachers are those who know how little they know. Bad teachers are those who think they know more than they don't know."
- R. Verdi
283

Isonomia,

Lenzie 13/02/2009 14:36:41
The purpose of educational establishments is to save society from those who have least common sense. (Anon)

In you dress enough monkeys in enough white coats they will sooner or later prove anything you like, not least of which is how gullible the public are when it comes to something dressed in a white coat. (Isonomia)
284

eyeswider,

13/02/2009 16:00:36
Yocal - "...i'm not stupid enough to depend on my memory!"

Merely stupid enough to believe, depend upon and regurgitate a tottering hypothesis masquerading as a theory? How is that working out for you?

"...you are deluding yourself if you think these discussions have any relevance..."

One wonders why you bother with your blether. Get back to your desk. You are distracting the grown ups and furthermore, you are a danger to yourself and others.

What discussion were you involved in? You have made up your mind and then welded shut the door, like others in here, and from that position one can never be externally enlightened. Enlightenment requires an open mind that remains capable of questioning, which is absent in fundamentalism, and fortune, which favours the bold, a trait which you have shown you most assuredly lack. Join the Royal Society and you can all parrot your mantra together like good little sheep in one frightened flock praying for big brother to herd you safely away from the big bad climate.

Some of us can still, even at this late juncture, be persuaded that adding one extra molecule to 10,000 others will result in some tipping point of global atmospheric catastrophe that will kill our grandchildren. All we ask is an engineering quality study that produces sufficient evidence to show said effect. You would assume from the resources used in pursuit of this grail that something would be available. But no. We are left with puffed up, and would-be, elitists telling us to relax, sit down guy, look over there.

Thank you for reminding me to tiptoe around the spew whilst attempting to converse with other, more open minded folk. The science is never settled, but it sure as sugar isn't going to impact upon closed minded ideologues.

285

Petem13,

Edinburgh 13/02/2009 22:35:37
So now Yocal is in on the act.
Yes I was referring to mankind. We could argue about lifestyles but surely not about basic human need.Like food, shelter and warmth which I would imagine you enjoy as do we all as we sit and type on our computers with the heating on and the lights on.
Perhaps you could enlighten us all though. Could you produce evidence that the Green House effect has been proven? Maybe you did it at school and your massive accomplishments passed the rest of the scientific community by? You do know that CO2 would have to radiate heat greater than the 2nd law of Thermodynamics allows for? And since that law still exists it kind of suggests that the GH effect still hasn't been proven.
But you will have an answer no doubt.
286

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 14/02/2009 05:45:09
DAve Sh!t for brains from Barra.
If you can be bothered:

http://www.durangobill.com/Swindle_Swindle.html
287

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 14/02/2009 05:47:07
And how much money is Buckee getting to say all this?
288

Vlad Tepes,

Snagov 16/02/2009 10:39:59
The cosmic rays myth has been debunked for a long time now (http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?tip=1&id=6233.) What IS incredible is that this fossil fuel peddler wants us to feel sorry for him, accept his balderdash and keep burning fuel at an unsustainable rate.
Amazing.
289

bluehead,

edinburgh 16/02/2009 13:23:22
thank goodness some one has spoken the truth about this climate warming,if there is any one to blame for this situation,look no further than the house of commons where more hot air is spouted out from MP's,than lava from an eruption,
the labour goverment is more of a national disease than a political party,they should be lined up in a neat file and marched into the tower of London for the terrible damage they have done to this country.
290

eyeswide,

17/02/2009 09:47:25
#292 You are a study in wilful ignorance.

The page you refer to never once mentions cosmic rays.

I imagine you are using a computer to write your drivel.

Think, if that is a function remaining to you, what a computer is comprised of, how those ingredients are assembled and distributed to you, the true origins of your fiscal ability to purchase it and, most importantly, where the power comes from to sustain your use of it to produce bluster. Even if some nuclear generation is in that mix it is only there by dint of fossil fuels that have allowed humanity to progress to this point.

I guess a barbarian has no use for knowledge and loves nothing more than seeing an unsubstantiated rumour push your rulers to more and more heartless and punitive actions.

Incredible, indeed.


#290 - I am sure your eloquence has persuaded many to peruse the utter twaddle, from some irrelevant nutter, that you reference. Your charm alone has persuaded me to give up my search for some real, solid, relative, current, meaningful scientific evidence that the very gas that sustains all life on this planet has some arcane, swift and so far undisclosed propensity for destroying that which it exists to support.
291

Neil Hampshire,

Cheshire 08/03/2009 08:20:43
We should all remember the sun is still devoid of sunspots. It looks like cycle 24, if and when it starts, will be the lowest for many years.

We should all know one way or the other over the next 15 years.
292

zoomer,

Canada 09/03/2009 03:59:10
Some interesting data referenced in the above discussions. But it seems to me that there is a perspective missing. Yes, there are measurements showing variation in atmospheric temperature. But what are we really trying to measure? And has there been a location-insensitive experiment validated by both sides as to what measurements are accepted and then what they truly represent?

As an engineer I'd say stick to the data, regardless of what politicians and others say.

I think we are really trying to measure the heat content - temperature is an indicator of it. But consider this: In an over simplified example, earth has gas (atmosphere), water and rock. All of them contain heat energy. And as had been stated above, convection and radiation are two methods of transferring heat around.

But consider this: Air has a specific heat value of about 1 J/g/K. Water has a specific heat of about 4 J/g/K. The atmosphere has 14.7 pounds of mass per square inch of surface area of the earth. Now from my SCUBA diving experience I know that there is about 1 atmosphere of additional presure at about 33 feet depth. So there is about 14.7 ponds of water in only 33 feet. But since water has about 4 times the specific heat of air, the same heat energy capacity of one square inch of atmosphere is contained in only 33/4 or about 8 feet of water. That's incredible.

The same amount of heat energy capacity of the atmosphere above he ocean is contained in only the top 8 feet of the ocean. So what about all the other heat in the ocean? What about the heat in the land? I know this is over simplified but it seems to me that measuring air temperature alone does not provide a solid model for determining whether or not there is a net energy change in the earth's thermodynamic system.

One other thing I always thought was interesting - 99% of the atmosphere is contained in about the first 40 km above the surface. How long does it take to walk or run or bike 40 km?

 

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