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Glenrothes by-election: Salmond throws down gauntlet to Brown



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Published Date: 15 October 2008
Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond, today challenged Gordon Brown to a head-to-head debate in the run-up to the crucial Glenrothes by-election.
The SNP leader warned that he is ending the political truce agreed during the current banking turmoil – after Mr Brown claimed Scotland could not have tackled the banking crisis on its own.

Mr Salmond said the nationalists are on course to pull of
f a shock in the vacant seat next month, similar to the "political earthquake" they caused after overturning a Labour majority of 10,500 to win Glasgow East in the summer.

"I detect that the political earth is still shaking from Glasgow East and it's going to be felt next here in Glenrothes," he said.

The SNP leader was joined by the party's candidate for the seat, local council leader Peter Grant, at Scottish Second Division side East Fife's Bayview ground today in Methil to launch the nationalists' campaign.

Mr Salmond said rising energy costs will be among the key issues in the campaign and predicted action in these areas as "the political pressure mounts".

He also reiterated his weekend calls for a £1 billion package from Westminster to help reflate the Scottish economy, including £120 million held by energy watchdog Ofgem for Scotland.

Mr Salmond welcomed Mr Brown's plans to campaign in the constituency.

"Battle will be joined and the issue will be toe-to-toe," Mr Salmond said.

"I'll be delighted to meet Gordon on the campaign trail – who knows, we might meet up on it somewhere.

"I would be delighted, incidentally, to debate with the Prime Minister."
He added: "I will be delighted to debate with the Prime Minister anywhere in this seat.

"I'll do it in the park in East Fife at New Bayview here. I'm very happy to do that."

Mr Brown said last night that a Scottish administration could not have masterminded a similar bail-out of the banking system to the £37 billion package he announced this week.

The First Minister said he had told Chancellor Alistair Darling that he would "suspend" normal political crossfire during the crisis.

Mr Salmond said: "Obviously he (Mr Brown) feels, and let's all hope, that the emergency situation has calmed down.

"I can only interpret the decision to resume political hostilities in that light, therefore he will now be subject to the same examination politically that normal times demand."

He added: "In particular we can examine who the author of the 'Age of Irresponsibility' actually was."

Mr Salmond also said the SNP would not shy away from the issue of independence after question marks were raised about the toll of the economic turmoil on countries like Ireland and Iceland – previously held up by the nationalists as examples for Scotland to follow.

"Our policy of Scottish independence underlines everything we do," he said.




The full article contains 481 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 October 2008 1:07 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Glenrothes by-election
 
1

steveenglandandGB,

15/10/2008 13:37:34
The credit crunch is starting to hit the more intelligent SNP fans that actually it's probably best not to go it alone!
2

The Master,

15/10/2008 13:39:15
Excuse me, but this is a contest to elect a local constituency MP. Why therefore is Supernat wanting an American style presidential debate between himself and the PM, neither of whom is directly involved in the contest (although in practice Supernat, of course, IS the SNP!)

The arrogance and self importance of Supernat is nauseating in the extreme, but there again he is a nationalist of the kind who simply refuses to soft peddle the increasingly untenable separation policy, as graphically illustrated by his remark, "Our policy of Scottish independence underlines everything we do". Tick! Tock!
3

danielrober,

15/10/2008 13:40:00
NO.

A leaders debate involves all the leaders, all the vice leaders. Not Alec.S and his ego making Scotland his personal beef with Brown. All the leaders or NONE, thats democracy.

If Alec.S wants a debate i'll talk with him in public, with cameras about energy policy projected over a 50 year period. But i'm not important enough, to divert the First Ministers time, from his job. But First Minister is not important enough for divert the Prime Minsters time, for a debate over this months politics when he is needed to run the country.

Alec.S really has the biggest EGO in Scotland.
4

ppink,

15/10/2008 13:42:40
The one thing that Brown fears is the voter, the man in the street who pays for his grandiose follies and who will ultimately give him the sack.
5

Brian S,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 13:44:50
1,2 & 3

Bumping your gums again I see..............

If you're going to debate this issue try to do it without name calling. Grow up and get a life.
6

danielrober,

15/10/2008 13:52:55
The more i read these vast statements by the SNP on Alec.S verse Godon Brown.

Is this really not about Alec.S not coping that he himself did not make Prime Minister of the UK because he too is Scottish! Is this not the fact that the Prime Minister is Scottish & Alec.S's EGO also thinks this gives him a right to ask for a debate!

Bad luck - Alec.S you did not make Prime Minister! I and many other people would be happy to make First Minster of Scotland to serve Scotland, rather than be served by Scotland. You need to please back off Alec.S, your damaging the economy of Scotland and the UK.
7

Ugly George,

15/10/2008 14:03:04
4 ppink
"The one thing that Brown fears is the voter"

Really - is this not true of all politicians?
8

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 14:09:11
Brown depends on a compliant and complicit media to maintain the fiction that he is a "great leader" who has saved civilization from disaster. Such a fantastical proposition would be exposed to the ridicule it so obviously deserves in a head to head debate with Scotland's First Minister. Bottler Broon has the gall but not the guts.
9

ppink,

15/10/2008 14:09:18
7 Well really what a daft comment UG, Brown has shown a pathelogical dislike of putting his popularity to that particular test
10

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 14:10:41
I thought some other guy was the SNP candidate for Glenrothes, not Salmond. Does the actual candidate not get a chance to speak?
11

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 15/10/2008 14:16:50
Gordon Brown once again put the boots to Scotland when it was down and out.
The Westminster bank heist was about as cynical as it gets and the saggy faced idiot should be made to pay big time at Glenrothes.
Even the thought of having to debate Wee Eck will make Broon puke.
12

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 14:25:58
#1 Steve

That sounds like wishful thinking on your part.
13

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 14:27:13
#10 Tin Pot

Yes he does. I heard him today on TV and radio.

Next question?
14

Mercian,

UK 15/10/2008 14:31:17
Salmond knows this will never happen and shouldn't happen over a by-election in which neither party leader is a candidate.

He is only saying it for attention and so he portray Brown as a coward when he declines or ignores his silly challenge...
15

vimto,

15/10/2008 14:31:19
For once Brown is correct,there is no way in hell scotland could of handled this crisis alone.
16

ppink,

15/10/2008 14:34:45
#17 If Scotland had been independent there would have been no crisis to handle
17

John S,

15/10/2008 14:36:11
#4 ppink.The one thing that Brown fears is the voter, he also doesn't like elections of any kind.
1994 He didn't stand for the Labour Party leadership because of the rumoured pact with Tony Blair.
2007 He made sure his take over from Tony was viturally unopposed.
2007 He broke the 2005 Labour manifesto on the EU referendum
2007 He got cold feet and didn't hold a Autumn 2007 general election.
2008 He didn't campaign in person during the Glasgow East by-election using the excuse that by tradition that PM's don't visit by-election when PM Tony Blair visited 3 by-elections.
18

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 14:41:53
Brown does not have the bottle; once again Salmond has upstaged him.

Salmond would take him to pieces in any debate and well Brown knows it. Brown is a coward and prefers his business done by his lackeys doing all the mavouvering on his behalf..he ain't got the bottle!
19

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 14:46:12
Danielrober offers:-

“If Alec.S wants a debate i'll talk with him in public, with cameras about energy policy projected over a 50 year period. But i'm not important enough, to divert the First Ministers time.”

If the standard of his debating skills is anything like the standard of his spelling and grammar, then I suggest that he turns his attention away from Alex Salmond, and concentrates upon engaging some passing seven year old in a dialectical discourse over the meaning of a curly wurly.
20

Davie08,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 14:48:26
#3 Daniel such modesty. Not only are you not important enough to divert the first minister's attention you are not important enough to divert anyone's attention.
21

Davie08,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 14:52:41
Happy may I suggest you stick to the Daily Mail.
22

Ribbonman,

Glasgow 15/10/2008 14:58:54
Another vote of confidence in the Scottish people by the Scottish prime minister of England.Many small countries were able to tackle the recent financial crisis on their own, and are still doing so, Ireland being one of them.However the prime minister of England tells us that we as Scots would have been unable to deal with such a situation.How degrading and demeaning. What a bunch of idiotic peasants we really are!
23

guenevere,

15/10/2008 15:00:22
How soon til salmond proclaims himself lord protector,this is all becoming very silly as graeme chapman used to say,how sad that he's able to persuade people to vote for him despite of rather than because of his seperation policy.

Am I the only one reminded of a certain other controversial leader in history LMAO
24

Ribbonman,

15/10/2008 15:00:33
26 crappy english.......... Stay out of the affairs of my country!
25

ppink,

15/10/2008 15:03:57
Happy from Knt

The Oil saved England from numerous financial debacles over the past 30 years and underwrites the borrowing that England will have to do if it can underwrite a minority stake in RBS (or is it going to be Royal Bank of England now or the Unionist Bank or National Westminster Bankof Kent)
26

The Tin Man,

15/10/2008 15:06:03
It would be more appropreate for the leader of the SNP in Westminster to debate with Brown (perhaps someone can refresh my memory on who that may be).

Salmond should have a debate with his Holyrood oppos.
27

ppink,

15/10/2008 15:10:41
Happy

If Scotland wants Independence all they have to do is vote for it. It's going to happen. The legal framework is in place. No other qualifications are necessary.

When that happens all Scottish resources will be Scotlands. Who knows we might let the Queen visit Balmoral if she pays rent.
28

vimto,

15/10/2008 15:19:02
think the natz need to take a look at this------------ you tube the British dividend!
29

ppink,

15/10/2008 15:22:02
#34 Happy from Kent oil is a joke etc
Happy


Try telling a joke to an empty tank.
30

ppink,

15/10/2008 15:24:01
happy

Don't tell me to get real you yokel The Scottish Banks were shorted and he acted illegally.
31

ppink,

15/10/2008 15:38:35
#40

He suspended the OFT regulations and delayed the shorting ban - both illegal in order to further his political ends.

32

Mercian,

UK 15/10/2008 15:44:48
#20 fed up... Brown can, but is too smart to risk a face-to-face debate with anybody over a by-election. He is after all experiencing the most postive press of his premiership, recently, and real respect from around the the world. Salmond is probably foaming at the mouth with envy at Flash Gordon's international standing...

33

Alan B,

15/10/2008 15:52:10
#2 The Master

Salmond agrees with Darling that they will not slag each other off during a crisis. Browns breaks the agreement and you blame Salmond.

Brown breaks the convention that prime ministers do not campaign and you blame Salmond for wanting to debate with him.

At the end of the day I do not know why any democrat would be against a debate between the party leaders. Your unionist fear is showing. Do not have a debate. Salmond might take Brown to the cleaners in any debate.

It is funny how 2 ultra unionists in you and Daniel both are against debates that would allow the people to decide.

#Daniel your posts are getting more ridiculous, desperate and obscure by the day. What is seriously wrong with a debate between the 2 leaders? That is democracy. It lets the public decide. How is Salmond wanting to debate Brown on a democratic debate anything to do with Salmond wanting to be PM.

"But First Minister is not important enough for divert the Prime Minsters time, for a debate over this months politics when he is needed to run the country."

That is simply stupid. As it was Brown who has said he will campaign for in this byelection. If Brown has enough time to walk the streets campaigning he has enough time for a debate. If Brown has enough time to yesterday launch a tv interview attack on independence then he has enough time for a head to head debate.
34

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/10/2008 16:06:59
The SNP are still clear favourites to win Glenrothes.

One step closer to those 20+ seats at Westminster.
35

ppink,

15/10/2008 16:07:03
Happy. No no no you are as confused as your post is confusing.

I don't know how you can say that the Banks would have gone to the wall if if Scotland was independent. There has been no trouble in Norway or Finland or New Zealand for example.






36

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:15:49
It will never happen in a million years. Brown would be gutted filleted smoked and hung out to dry.
This is the man who wouldnt chance a general election when he was neck and neck with the tories in the polls.
This is the man who didnt dare show his face in the East end of Glasgow during the run up to the bi election.
When or if Brown does deign to show his face in Glenrothes it will be a lightning well orchestrated visit with no chance for any real voters to get to grips with him on any issues it will be staged managed with labour activists brought in to pose prepared questions to Brown who will then nod and agree with his answers. And this pathetic party political rag will go along for the ride and publish whatever its told to publish.
37

Nevsky,

Moscow 15/10/2008 16:17:27
48 happy#

Sure, why not? Better to be like the than in a failing UK.
38

frank mcbride,

lusitania 15/10/2008 16:19:23
Happy,

Just like Brown, you are gifted at making unsubstantiated comments.

If you have any verifiable comments to make on the situation of HBOS and RBS, or indeed an Independent Scotland's abilities, then I will be willing to discuss your view.

I'll start, shall I?

Brown is setting aside his own FSA rules to "allow" the take over of HBOS. Illegal short selling was going on and this was known to Westminster who refused to do anything until HBOS shares had collapsed. RBS is liquid, but because of of rumours circulating in London circles about its liquidity there was a run on its shares which caused problems with its capitalisation.

Why were these allowed to happen without FSA intervention?
Why, coincidentally, did these strange occurences happen, to the only UK clearing banks with substanial HQ activity in Scotland?
Why did Brown have conversations with the top man in LloydsTSB about a HBOS takeover before the fact?

I await your verifiable answers.
39

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:21:22
48

When unionist MPs in England compared an Independent Scotland to Albania the SNP compared Scotland to Norway because Norway is the closest independent nation to Scotland in population plus natural resources. Not Iceland nor Ireland nor Narnia nor Middle Earth. The Iceland comparrison is a unionist spin but even then I dont see Iceland being anything other than independent during or after the crises has been and gone. Meanwhile Scotland suffers just as much as Iceland is but without any power or manner in which to deal with its own situation.
Not that you give a sh*t about any of it.
40

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:21:30
Unemployment in Scotland rises by 19,000

At a briefing in London for the international media, some of whom have labelled Mr Brown a "magician" and a "superhero", he brushed off a suggestion by one foreign reporter that he was now "Flash Gordon"


Aye - pure magic.
41

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 16:23:38
When was the last time Alex Salmond asked Gordon Brown a question at PMQs in Westminster?
42

57vintage,

Keith 15/10/2008 16:25:35
"The SNP leader was joined by the party's candidate for the seat, local council leader Peter Grant, at Scottish Second Division side East Fife's Bayview ground"

SECOND DIVISION?

And fighting relegation if Smirking Sandy's recent performance is anything on which to judge.
43

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:27:11
Mr Broon's few hours of media triumph are now history as the economy falls apart before our eyes. But what of the 500,000,000,000 pounds screams Gaga Broon to his palls in the City? Thanks - they reply.
44

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 16:28:27
Gordon Brown: Tough on Scottish Banks, Tough on the causes of Scottish Banks.

I look forward to a debate between these two people , assuming of course Gordon Brown doesn't wimp out.

Over the past few weeks, hard up Scots have seen Gordon Brown and his English Government squander Scottish tax payers money in order to save the London bankers in England. It is an absolute obscenity, that so much Scottish money is being wasted paying for grandiose English Government projects like the London Olympics.

As for Brown, and his handling of the economy, we now see rising unemployment, rising inflation (at record levels), and falling house prices. Only one man can be held responsible, as he has been in charge for twelve years. Gordon Brown.

Bring on independence, so we scots can have a leader like Alex Salmond, who will look after the interests of Scottish people, unlike Gordon Brown, who spends his time wasting OUR Scottish tax money on the English Olympics, Wembley, and St.Pancras Station.

No doubt tonight, Brown will be glued to the TV watching HIS team (England) play. The man is an utter disgrace to Scotland.
45

ppink,

15/10/2008 16:28:44


#48 Stop doing this Alfred E Neumann 'go get a life and 'cuckoo land' cliches.

Iceland like England and the United States followed the Anglo Saxon model of bad regulation and over borrowing.

Unfortunately HBOS and RBS did the same. I am not excusing them. They were easy meat.

We trusted the UK authorities to act prudently. They didn't.

It's time for change.






46

Weegiewarbler,

Docked today 15/10/2008 16:29:42
WE never knew (after reading the first half dozen posts) just HOW MANY apparently PAID folks LABOUR (appears) to have posting twaddle on these pagaes.

Or how the Scotsman very often seems to have their posting at / near the top of threads.

It would appear to the uninitiated that they may have advance knowledge of when the article will be available for comment !
47

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 16:31:12
For the past few years the SNP has been tellin all Scots that independence would be a simple, pain free move. We would all pay less tax and have more money t spend on services they have told us. We would be much better off than we are now. We would be welcomed into the EU with open arms.

The last few weeks have not shown us that Scotland could not go it alone. Clearly wecould. But what they have shown is that the SNP's platitudes and assurances that it would not change very much at all are completely false.

Thereis a case for Scottish independence, but the SNP have not made it bcause they have chosen not to level with the Scottish people about the very hard choices we would have to make, about the uncertainty we would face and about the dangers small countries have to confront, as well as the opportunities that they can take advantage of. Hopefully what the events of the last few weeks will do is inject some honesty into the debate.

If we do vote for independence at some stage, we have to have done it knowing exactly what is front of us. I think now we have a much better idea than we did before.
48

I.Wright,

Glasgow 15/10/2008 16:32:26
The absurd self-regarding balloon Salmond has nothing better to do than to spend days on end campaigning in a byelection, as he did in Glasgow East. Whenever there is any discussion of the financial crisis it is Salmond that pops up with an instant populist soundbite, while we never see his so-called 'Finance Minister' Swinney. What's he doing these days? So this one-man band Salmond, inflated with his own arrogance beyond all reason, thinks that it sounds sensible for him to demand that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who has plenty of real work to do, must come and debate who knows what with him in a byelection in which neither of them is the candidate? Does he take us all for idiots, or is it just the thicko SNP activists he's trying to impress at conference time?

Even the leader of the LibDems wouldn't attend a byelection almost every day for three weeks like Salmond does, and he's not even a minister. It beggars belief that the supposed 'First Minister' of a supposed 'nation' thinks that doing this should be his highest priority. We're paying him to work for us, the voters, not for his party.

He's going to lose Glenrothes, anyway, so I suppose that will be some comfort.
49

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 16:33:02
Just in case nobody has realise, the way it is being presented, that Gordon Brown showed the whole world what to do to rescue banks, let me put you straight. Watch Spanish TV, or French TV, or italian TV, or US TV, and you will not find, Zapatero, Sarkozy, Berlusconi or Bush talking about how Gordon Brown showed them what to do. No, the reality is the plan of action was a consensus decision taken at recent G7 and EU finance meetings, Gordon Brown just did what they ALL decided together.

To even suggest that Brown led the way, is a fr*ggin joke. Also known as 'spin' or bullsh*t depending upon your point of view.
50

Vote UKIP,

15/10/2008 16:33:12
Can't wait for UKIP to do well. Go the UKIP!!!!
51

57vintage,

Keith 15/10/2008 16:33:18
Brown has nothing to gain from this and will pragmatically ignore the fool.

A cheap publicity stunt from a yo-yo leader.

Does he take a seat in Edinburgh or London?

When will he next decide that he doesn't want to be leader any more and then decide later on that he wants his sweeties back?

He was discredited by his own hand long before the non-events of the past 3 weeks.
52

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 16:33:29
#57 - Labour is in power solely because of Scottish votes. Scotland voted labour in 2005, 2001 and 1997, so for the last 11 years Scotland has had the government at Westminster that scotland wanted. Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are Scots representing Scottish constituencies.
53

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 16:34:43
#62 - I guess the bloke who as awarded the Nobel prize for economics earlier this week must be wrong then. But what would he know, eh?
54

1stEdinburgh,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:36:47
Although the SNP has done a lot of good things for Scotland in such a short space of time (abolishing bridge tolls and hospital car park charges, free presriptions now and free school meals soon in addition to Scottish students not paying university feesfree long-term care for the elderly), it risks alienating a lot of new SNP voters who prefer a self-administered Scotland within a UK framework.
55

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:38:47
60

What hard choices? there are only 2 very simple choices we either remain a region of England with no control or say of our own resources or destiny or regain our position on the world stage as an Independent nation in full control of its own resources and destiny.

What is so hard about that?
56

57vintage,

Keith 15/10/2008 16:38:57
I stopped trusting this lightweight ever since "Free By 93" in the 1992 election (probably too far back for a large number of infants Nats) saw me lend him my vote.

The result was that the sitting MP's majority was cut to just 800 and almost let the tory in.

Never again.

Toom tabard.
57

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:39:28
The Prime Minister looked very comfortable - jubilant even - on Newsnight. He seems to enjoy answering planted questions with prepared answers. Yes - that's his kind of debate. He's very good at it.
58

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 16:39:45
Number 61,

Clearly you have zero understanding of the democratic process. The only reason Brown didn't turn up in Glasgow east was because he knew he was a liability in Scotland. All the other leaders WERE THERE, just as often as Salmond.

Alex Salmond is a great leader for Scotland.

The notion that Scotland is THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that cannot self govern is quite frankly ridiculous. Of course Scotland can be independent, but I think it is clear, that many of the people posting otherwise are just unionist English puppets like Jim Murphy.

Why does Scotland need a foreign government to run it?? Time for Scotland and the Scottish people to run the country themselves, instead of this old colonial Government in England.

Quite frankly, Most people in Scotland would rather have Salmond than the english buffoon Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown, the man who failed Scotland.
59

I.Wright,

Glasgow 15/10/2008 16:41:31
"WE never knew (after reading the first half dozen posts) just HOW MANY apparently PAID folks LABOUR (appears) to have posting twaddle on these pagaes"

Struth! Is there no limit to the deranged paranoia of these separatist fools? Do weird movements like nationalism always attract a disproportionate number of green-ink obsessives? Has this person not noticed that all the Scottish newspaper forums are overrun by nationalists - probably something like 80% to 20% non-nationalists? Has he never noticed the separatist posters who seem to be on full-time duty, posting their garbage into the small hours of the morning. Whether they are paid, I know not, but they sure as hell don't have anything else to do.

A few non-nats happen to post at the top of the thread and you think it's another conspiracy. You should get out more.
60

AJ Fife,

15/10/2008 16:41:50
Daft Gordon would be slaughtered by the Statesman-like Mr Salmond!

It would be worth watching for sure!
61

57vintage,

Keith 15/10/2008 16:41:53
#60 "What is so hard about that?"

All I want is some truth (Lennon).

Tell us what it will cost taking into account the need to set up a discrete civil service, a military etc etc

I may not be against independence, but the case hasn't been made yet and there are far more pressing social issues to be sorted out rather than spending time debating the constitution.
62

ppink,

15/10/2008 16:42:37
#66 If you read 'the bloke who was awarded the Nobel prize' blog on the NYT you will see that HE floated 'The Gordon Brown's plan' mid september which Hank Paulson rejected at the time.

All the leaders did was adopt the plan of a Nobel Prize winner and leading economist. No wonder he is said the plan was brilliant.

You don't really think that Laurel and 'eyebrows Hardy' thought that up surely.
63

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:42:53
65

Scotland has never had the government it voted for in the 300 years it has been subjegated within the union.
The only governments voted into Westminster have been so because over 200 English MPs voted them in and not because a maximum of 72 Scottish MPs voted for them.
Without a majority of English seats no party can hope to win in Westminster so keep yer lying spinning bullsh*t tae yersell.
64

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:43:58
Unemployment in Scotland rises by 19,000

The Prime Minister is an economic magician so he is.
65

danielrober,

15/10/2008 16:44:07
# 44 Alan B,

How about a panel debate where David Cameron and Nick Clegg are there too. The COnservative and Lideral Democrates are both national elected leaders as well. Or has Alec.S decided that no one else has the right to be heard in Scotland.

Visting a bi-election seat by Gordon Brown is very different from a debate. These events must follow rules, cleared up months in advance. Rather than been a little stich up between two parties in Scotland, other should be heard.

As for my chatting with his kingship, why not? He likes to pour policy statements on engineering all the time. Why not film his kingship talking to say the chairman of EDF, BP, BA, RBS (big technlogy investo)etc. Rather than just hearing one side, the SNP side lets hear what is actually said in front of cameras.

If Alec.S is not afriad of democracy, then lets have a democratic bedate with all the leaders.
66

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:45:38
72

Even the might USA has to go cap in hand for a loan sometimes and to the Chinese of all people.
The UK is in hock to the tune of trillions to other nations but dont let that get in the way of your sh*t stirring.
67

vimto,

15/10/2008 16:45:56
Oh come on all you natz,stop being scaredy cats, log on to you tube "the British dividend!"
68

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:45:56
57vintage, Keith 15/10/2008 16:41:53

"I may not be against independence, but the case hasn't been made yet and there are far more pressing social issues to be sorted out rather than spending time debating the constitution."

Droll - very droll.
69

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:50:14
Scotland's National Anthem under Broon:

They used to tell me I was building a dream
And so I followed the mob.
When there was earth to plow or guns to bear,
I was always there, right on the job.
They used to tell me I was building a dream
With peace and glory ahead --
Why should I be standing in line, just waiting for bread?
Once I built a railroad, I made it run,
Made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad, now it's done --
Brother, can you spare a dime?

Once I built a tower, up to the sun,
brick and rivet and lime.
Once I built a tower, now it's done --
Brother, can you spare a dime?

Once in khaki suits, gee, we looked swell
Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum.
Half a million boots went slogging through hell,
And I was the kid with the drum.

Say, don't you remember they called me Al,
It was Al all the time.
Why don't you remember, I'm your pal --
Say, buddy, can you spare a dime?

Once in khaki suits, ah, gee, we looked swell
Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum.
Half a million boots went slogging through hell,
And I was the kid with the drum.

Say, don't you remember they called me Al,
It was Al all the time.
Why don't you remember, I'm your pal --
Buddy, can you spare a dime?
70

Geoff,

sa 15/10/2008 16:50:38
No matter what u think of him,Tony Blair would be a good match for Alex Salmond-now thats a debate I would love to see! Alas, and again no matter what else u think of him,Gordon Brown is not a good orator so I think he would come off second best. A word of advice though to GB if he reads this forum(!)-the honest answer is always best. When they asked you which soccer team you supported, you should have answered-"Any British Team, but if Scotland is playing then naturally,anyone would shout for the country of his birth!"
He dropped the ball there.
As did Bill clinton who should have told them to mind their own business when they asked about Monica!
71

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 16:53:41
72

No you never heard any Nat say Scotland can be as good as Ireland all you have ever heard from any Nats is Scotland can be BETTER than Ireland.
Which make perfect sense because Ireland doesnt have a fraction of the assets and resources available to Scotland. You can compare Ireland to Iceland but you have to compare Scotland to Norway.
So when Norway goes t*ts up and begs England to run its economy from Westminster then I will agree there is a case for Scotland to remain within the union.
72

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 16:53:47
#68 -

1. Higher taxes and higher investent like Norway; or lower taxes and public services cuts like Ireland?

2. Accepting EU membership on the EU's terms or staying outsde the EU?

3. What will the new Scottish constitution look like and who will write it?

4. Does Scotland need a central bank, if so how do we establish one?

5. What currency should we use?

6. How far are we prepared to compromise in order to get an independence settlement that all parts of the island of Britain can live with?

7. What happens if Scots vote for an independence negotiaiton and do not like what has been negotiated?

And so on. All very hard choices and ones which the SNP have never spoken about up until now.The last few weeks have shown us independence will not be an easy step to guaranteed prosperity, but a very difficult and complicated move fraught with danger. That does not mean that it should not happen, but it does mean we need a full and honest debate about the consequences of independence.
73

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 16:55:29
As Harry Hill would say;

Gordon Brown or Alex Salmond, which one's better?? Hmmm??

There's only one way to decide

FIGHT!

My moneys on Salmond, as he clearly eats more pies, and also happens to be a natural leader.
74

An Beal Bacht,

15/10/2008 16:57:06
I'll leave you unionists to ponder this:

tinyurl.com/3kr4q5
75

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 16:57:09
#77 - Scotland has had the government it voted for since 1997. That is a simple fact.

76

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 16:57:24
I ask again;

Why is Scotland the only oil producing nation in the developed world that cannot manage itself?? Why does Scotland need the Government of England to run it like a colony??

Get off your knees Scotland.
77

john z,

edinburgh 15/10/2008 16:59:17
Number 88

Any way we can speed the clock up, and get the English Government out of Scotland for good?
78

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 17:00:40
#90 - Och, we are just so oppressed aren't we? Poor wee us, those horrible English oppressing us all the time. We're just so weak and submissive and on our knees and oppressed by those dreadful English. Och, poor old Scotland.
79

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 17:01:18
#91 - How can we? We are so oppressed and weak and on our knees.
80

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:01:55
86

1.I dont here many Norwegians complaining about their higher cost of living due to the fact that their higher standard of living more than makes up for it.

2. Negotiating our own treaties with the EU not being a footnote of Englands.

3.I dont Know did the US write their constitution before or after they decided to fight for their independence?

4.I would imagine it would be advantagous to have one but never mind we own at least 8% of the Bank of England.

5.What currency would you prefer?

6.Compromise? If Scotland votes democratically for Independence then no compromise is necessary its automatic.

7.What if during the negotiation stages we were invaded by aliens from the planet Zorg and they make the whole process as irrelevant as that stupid question?
81

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:03:57
89

Well at least youre finally waking up to the reality of the union and no before time.
82

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 17:05:00
#91 - So no sensible answers to questions that will have to be addressed before any independence vote.
83

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:05:37
86

No it isnt Scotland has had the Government over 200 English constituencies voted for as they did during the Thatcher and Major years.
84

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 17:05:48
#93 - Why do you despise your fellow Scots so much?
85

Border Scot,

15/10/2008 17:06:37
#95 - So are saying Scotland did not vote Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005? I am not sure many people will support you in that assertion.
86

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:06:38
94

None that you will acknowledge because yer nothing more than a sh*t stirring troll with no interest in any of these issues anyway.
87

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:07:35
96

Youre not a Scot and you dont live on Borders yer just another idiot troll logon fae London.
88

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:09:08
97

I am saying Labour didnt get into Westminster because people in Scotland voted for them they only won the elections because over 200 English constituencies voted for them.
89

Rufus T. Firefly,

15/10/2008 17:11:56
Alex Salmond has lost a helluva lot of credibilty in the past couple of weeks following the failure of HBOS and RBS.

His attack on spivs and speculators was designed to do one thing and that was to place the blame for the Scottish Bank failures firmly at the door of the South East of England, the City and London's wealth.

Of course this backfired on him when, following analysis, it transpired that it was the banks' very own spivs and apeculators that caused much the fall due to their irresponsible risk taking.

The scariest part of all is that every other party leader at Holyrood seemed to swallow all of Salmond's bullshine hook line and sinker. It seemed to be a case that "Well Alex used to be a banker, he must know what he is on about".

Bizarrely it was Wendy Alexander who took apart Alex' rants and raves in the chamber but this did not get much coverage owing to the fact that the entire press corp think the sun shines out of Salmond ass and that Wendy is a torn faced wee nyaff (this may be true but she certainly demonstrated a greater awareness of the broader problem than Alex and his "Its no fair, as ususal the greedy Londoners are trying to shaft us Scots again".

Salmond's one approach is to prey on the insecurities of Scots and their need to blame somebody else (i.e. England) for all our failings and shortcomings. He will tell the country any old garbage if he thinks it will get him his dying wish. But, not before time he's landed on his ass and with a bit of luck that is where he will be until the next Holyrood election.

Monday on Newsnight Scotland's pathetic attempt to analyse the financial crisis, he looked like a fish out of water. He does not know what caused the problem let alone what the solution is. He waffled and garbled some utter carp without answering one of Glen Campbell's weak questions - Christ can you imagine if a half knowledgable presenter had got a hold of him?
90

Alba Abú,

15/10/2008 17:18:28
69 Idiot. Ireland moved to prop up the banking system long before England did.Its called being smart and being first out of the traps!Oh! I forgot,if England didnt do it first then its not worth mentioning.
91

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 15/10/2008 17:20:40
The Unionists may well highlight Iceland at the moment. Using it as a comparison of the Scottish economic model is highly suspect. They may be in the same part of Europe geographically in the same way as Liechtenstein and Switzerland, but beyond that they are chalk and cheese. Every country which is independent is free to go its own way to make its own decisions and deal with the consequences.

This present Iceland obsession of the unionsists may well come back to haunt them when that country in a couple of years time has put their current difficulties behind them and have learned from their errors. When they are no longer a basket case and British taxpayers are just starting to feel the effects of paying off the Chinese for bailing out our UK banks and we are still in recession as Salmond calls his referendum, then don't crtiicise the cybernats if they remind you that Iceland is back in the arc of prosperity and better off even after its crisis and than the UK is.

What goes around comes around.
92

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 15/10/2008 17:21:12
101

Well if Rufus T Firefly the 6 months Labour trained monkey says Alex Salmond has lost a lot of credibility then we must take the point seriously and give it all the credibility we can no longer give to Scotlands First minister.
Just read that post at 101 every word a gem of credible articulate thoughtful heartfelt considered unbiased unblemished non politically affiliated literary prose.

"He looked like a fish out of water" how can you possibly argue with such eloquence.
But its all overshaddowed by the purity and unbridled honesty of an ordinary concerned voter making his own heartfelt observations.
93

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 15/10/2008 17:21:12
#101
Interesting thoughts, Rufus. I think Alex Salmond is genuinely trying to articulate long term policies, but you are perhaps right that he is too unquestioning of the broadly Keynesian line of the UK media and that blunts any criticism of Gordon Brown.

There seems hardly anyone in Scotland to question the idea that massive state intervention, distorting market and business to business signals might not be as effecti