Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Fury at BBC's English history of Scotland

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date:
11 March 2008
IT WAS hailed by BBC Scotland as one of its most ambitious projects ever. But already the ten-part series A History of Scotland has run into controversy, with a second senior Scottish historian publicly attacking the programme.
Professor Allan Macinnes told The Scotsman that he had resigned from the series' advisory board after its first meeting in November.

"I thought the whole production was dreadful," he said.

"The first provisional script I got was so Anglo-centric I couldn't believe it," Prof Macinnes said. "It was written on the basis as if Scotland was a divided country until the Union (with England] came along and civilised it. I felt it was just nonsense."

A History of Scotland's advisory board, which includes leading historians, agencies such as Historic Scotland and a history teachers' representative, meets for a second time this week.

But last week Professor Tom Devine, perhaps Scotland's best-known historian, revealed he had turned down the offer of a place on the board. While saying he "warmly welcomed" the show, he complained of an "old-fashioned" approach to Scottish history and the choice of archeologist Neil Oliver as presenter.

The programme is due on screen next November, with the first five parts ending with the Act of Union in 1707. It is the keystone of a "multi-platform" project from BBC Scotland, called Scotland's History. It includes linked live concerts from historic locations, and radio and website programming aimed at "bringing the country's history to life".

But the first script, Prof Macinnes said, was "very traditionalist", full of kings and queens. "Everything was written from the point of view of England and Scotland, as if Scotland didn't have any relations with any other country."

Mr Macinnes is a professor of early modern history at Strathclyde University, a published author and expert on the period up to and including the Union of the Crowns. He said another reason he resigned was the programme makers expected his time for free. "They seem to regard working for the BBC as an unpaid honour."

He conceded that the programme's second script might have changed,

but complained of an "awful phrase": "Scotland was a divided nation". He said: "At the time, England was divided, France was divided, Germany didn't even exist. I would like to see it put Scotland in its wider European context. You don't need to look at England all the time."

BBC Scotland said: "The whole point of the advisory group is to look at the bigger picture, and we have been very much working with them and taking on board their suggestions.

"No scripts as such have been issued. Early drafts are always open to discussion and differing interpretations."

Another top Scottish historian, Jenny Wormald, remains on the panel. She said: "I had my own worries: for example, I didn't want too much made of Robert the Bruce, because I wanted Scottish history to be made of more than our great heroes. I didn't win on that one."

EXPERT WITH AN INDIVIDUAL VIEW OF NATION'S PAST

PROFESSOR Allan Macinnes worked at the universities of Glasgow and Aberdeen before his appointment as professor of early modern history at Strathclyde University.

He has written on the history of the Highlands, including Scottish Jacobitism and the Highland clans. His book, Union and Empire: the Making of the United Kingdom in 1707, was published last year by Cambridge University Press, which called it a "major new interpretation" of the Act of Union in a "broad European and colonial context". Professor Macinnes was among a group of historians who lobbied the Scottish Parliament to commemorate officially the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union last January. He argues that Scottish politicians who negotiated the Treaty of Union were not "a parcel of rogues bought for English gold", but politically inept negotiators.

The full article contains 644 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 March 2008 9:54 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The BBC
 
1

britsout,

camelon 11/03/2008 00:25:34
why on earth should we even entertain the thought of scotlands history being strained through such a manky clout as the b b c ?. they hate the idea of scotlands autonomy. watch the disgraceful bias now totally undisguised on the politics show or newsnight and then ask your selves what the brief of the commisioning editors might be . jenny wormold should think again
2

Socrates2,

11/03/2008 00:41:53
really what do you expect from the bbc
they should try making a scottih history prog without much ref to england at least keep england in perspective with Man. Norway and Ireland

don't hold ur breath -- license money to burn
3

ChinaBear,

Hong Kong 11/03/2008 00:46:50
What a nonsense this is. Shame on you Scotsman for fanning nationalistic fires to get interest in a non event.
It's just a story about two academics, the 1st of which declined to participate in a BBC programme from the start, but warmly welcomed the show!

The one remaining expert complains about a script which the BBC say's doesn't exist yet. He then says that a programme about Scotland must tell the viewers that England and France were divided nations as well, or it becomes an anti Scotland conspiricy sponsored by the English!

Then we hear the REAL reason he's so hacked off, it's because he's not getting paid and he doesn't like the presenter!!

Get a life Scotsman but more so, get a life Macinnes, you sound like a bitter and sad man to me.
4

Keren, It's time,

11/03/2008 00:52:55
5 Above is exactly the sort of Scottish Cringe we need to get rid of.
5

alexandermc,

san francisco 11/03/2008 00:53:55
Please lets us encourage any source of historical education, people can surely make their minds up regards accuracy. Our kids have no idea about their history. They are so quick to display hatred but most have no historical perspective. Information is power.
6

,

11/03/2008 00:55:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Rob - Honest Toun,

11/03/2008 00:56:19
#1
Dr Dauvit Horsbroch warks wi the Scots Language Centre in Perth.

slc.office@scotslanguage.com

8

CRAGman,

11/03/2008 01:04:25
Why not get Niall Ferguson to make a programme about Scotland? He's in the US - so it'll make for an interesting view by a Scotsman abroad.
9

Black & White Triumph,

Greenhill road.....soon 11/03/2008 01:09:59
Well I for one am for an independant Scotland with its own independant media and airline etc etc. When that aim is achieved we can make our on programmes to our hearts content, redress millienia of mis representation and help build our self confindence as a nation.
We can stand up for ourselves, we can provide a country fit for all our children and we can do it as well if not better than most others in the world. We can do it because we are Scottish.
A wee distorted tv programme does not worry me one bit.
10

britsout,

camelon 11/03/2008 01:10:43
our kid are quick to display hate ? you post from direct experience of scots children ? musta misstit .here, pass the history test . was william wallace anti english ?
11

Navvy,

11/03/2008 01:16:56
#7 just so, let us see the programmes first this article is just a trailer for the series. It is generally acknowledged that history is poorly taught in schools so every little bit helps.

#11 stay clear of national airlines most of which are a great burden on their taxpayers.
Swiss -??
BA happily was sold
KLM has "merged" with Air France which the French government cheated the EU for years by paying illegal subsidies
Alitalia?
etc
12

Guga II,

Rockall 11/03/2008 01:31:49
We can't expect the EBC to make a programme on Scottish history without showing up their typical English "British Raj" bias. They, like their masters in Westminster, still treat Scotland as a colony, and it wouldn't do to show our colonial masters in a bad light.

As for #13's comment "that history is poorly taught in schools so every little bit helps.", this is all very well, but it might be better to teach the truth rather than the usual biased English history that is taught.
13

Scullion,

Canada 11/03/2008 01:43:24
#14Never forget that Scots were exceptionally willing and able partners in the British Empire. This country that I've lived in for decades was a Scottish colony for all intents and purposes and its first prime minister, born you know where, was famous for his phrase, "British I was born and British I shall die."Revisionism is expected but does no one any good.When I lived in Glasgow during the 60's, England was a foreign land which had absolutely no bearing on my view of the world. I always thought of them as the weaker partner. It wasn't true historically but for me to think that as a boy says much about the spirit of Scotland at that time. Besides, everyone must dispute another's version of history-that's the fun of it.
14

Guga II,

Rockall 11/03/2008 01:51:52
#15 It still is a foreign land, and always will be.
15

,

11/03/2008 01:56:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

,

11/03/2008 02:11:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

CROSSED GEORGE,

England and Proud 11/03/2008 02:13:16
17 MacAlba.

What a load of anti English rubbish, get a grip of yourself, as for independence, fine then we wouldn't have to listen to tripe like yours
18

Encephalon,

11/03/2008 02:24:42
For those of us overseas -the extensive coverage (NOT) of the weekend rugby result on the EBC news told you all you wanted to know about that particular organisation!

History is a very dangerous subject as it is always open to various interpretations depending on people's respective prejudices. However the political influences presently at play trying to counter Scottish nationalism and present Scotland as a mere province of the Disunited Kingdom ie England must be strongly resisted.

We played a significant part in Empire building - something we should be proud of-but those days are long gone and we need to forge our own future.
19

,

11/03/2008 02:26:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

,

11/03/2008 02:29:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA....captured from Mexico 1845 11/03/2008 02:35:18
Fury at BBC's English history of Scotland
--------------------------------------------

This headline is a joke.

Why don't U dudes produce ur own TV program on Scottish History.

Stop Ur whining and get on with it dudes.

If U cannot even do that. how in the hell will U manage, if U ever become an Independent State.

Squawking about bad bad England and the bad bad BBC !!! how juvenile is that dudes.

GC
22

CROSSED GEORGE,

Freedom for England 11/03/2008 02:36:10
21

Then take your prime minister back, both of them. I moved to your country in a mad moment and thank god have now moved back home, you are the most self obsessed, bigoted, ungrateful and xenophobic race on earth.

Come back up to Scotland, you must be joking. McAlba, you are RACIST, nothing less and its people like you that make your "country" such an unpleasant place

20
As for you, England must be resisted?, get a grip on reality,
23

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 02:38:43
24

True, the headline is a joke, and this newspaper inflames the rubbish these people spout, see the reaction I get when I defend my constantly criticised country. Scottish like to dish it out, but hate it when they get it back
24

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 02:39:23
23

We have lakes here, like the rest of the English speaking world
25

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 02:42:42
22

At least i'm not what you are
26

CROSSED GEORGE,

FREEDOM FOR ENGLAND 11/03/2008 02:45:21
Time to leave you all to your name calling, bickering and enviousness of everyone else, I'm English so I need to go to bed to get up in the morning to earn money to pay taxes to pay for a new hospital in Glasgow
27

,

11/03/2008 02:47:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 02:51:05
30

well the feelings growing more mutual here, we are fed up being dictated to, subsidising you and listening to all the rubbish you people come out with about being so hard done to, you Scottish are not superior even though you think you are.

By the way, you can have the 800,000 thousand Scots who have joined the English Gravy train back.

Now I am going to bed to pay for another hospital in Scotland
29

Encephalon,

11/03/2008 02:53:58
#29-translated-"mummy has said its time for bed as I have school tomorrow".

Try and pay attention to your teacher-you may actually learn something!
30

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 02:59:12
32 earlier on "We played a significant part in Empire building - something we should be proud of-but those days are long gone and we need to forge our own future"

Not out of my wallet you won't be, and as for learning, at least we were not brought up in a melting pot of racism, and secterianism like you are

30 "If you really don't want to come to Scotland, then you must be the only Englander who doesn't!"

Don't kid yourself, plenty of us are turning our backs on Scotland for holidays, and we all know where that will hit you, in the wallet, the hardest place to hit a Scotsman


31

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/03/2008 03:03:53
Hmm, never takes long for a rebuke of any Pro-Scottish sentiment on the Scotsman blogs.

Crossed George what utter dribble you come out with.

Your description of the Scots as "PAROCHIAL, XENAPHOBIC, RACIST, BIGOTED AND SELF OBSESSED RACE" is ridiculous. It is commonly understood outside of England that these are charectaristics associated with the English, throwing mud that is slung at you is a pi$$ poor strategy for winning an arguement.

You claim that England subsidises Scotland. This claim has been nonsensed, not by the SNP of her followers or some other 'sweaty' but by Oxford University.

If you are going to come onto the boards on a Scottish newspaper an understanding of the facts is required to not make yourself look like a complete Essex boy which you just have.

Sleep tight
32

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 03:05:57
34
Rather Essex boy than East Lothian boy, at least I can sleep tight because I'm not disturbed by having a British passport.
33

,

11/03/2008 03:06:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/03/2008 03:06:56
#35

er, whatever
35

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 03:08:39
36- no she escaped wonderful Scotland too.

Don't you think you could have moved any further away from the place you preach about, obviously not that proud to be Scottish

36

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 03:09:30
37

sorry confusing you, yes people in Scotland also have British passports, but for the rest of us in Britain it isn't a problem
37

CROSSED GEORGE,

11/03/2008 03:12:22
Gone all quiet DOOGIE?

Or maybe Australian taxes don't fund Scotland like ours do in England
38

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/03/2008 03:18:15
Keep it coming George - you are an amazingly talented man, spouting jibberish whilst sleeping.

Thank god us Scots have multi-tasking experts like you picking up all of our bills.
39

TommyKaye,

UK 11/03/2008 03:24:04
CROSSED GEORGE:

To quote you sir; "PAROCHIAL, XENAPHOBIC, RACIST, BIGOTED AND SELF OBSESSED RACE"

To whom are you referring sir?

Would Stephen Lawrence's name ring any bells with you?

To remind you he was a young innocent Black kid stabbed to death by five racist thugs in South London.

So far the record shows no Scottish involvement the perpatrators are apparently still at large and also apparently English.

Kind of blows a hole in your theory sir.

Also for the record George was not English but hailed from the area of the Middle East known as The Levant.

Oh dear are you getting more cross George?

40

,

11/03/2008 03:25:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/03/2008 03:33:24
MacAlba #43

yeah, i can think of a few other words and phrases to describe George...most of them starting with the words 'utter' and 'complete'
42

,

11/03/2008 03:43:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

,

11/03/2008 03:46:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

Wisnaeme,

wisnae there 11/03/2008 03:54:22

Awa an chase yer dragon, George.

Gie's peace.
.
45

,

11/03/2008 03:57:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Black & White Triumph,

Greenhill Road.......soon 11/03/2008 05:16:16
hoad on,

When we do get independence and when we make a country to be proud of by our own efforts, then comments from the above CG person will be irrelevant.

However, we do need to take the first step and get our independence back. It is not something that someone else can give us, its ours, we can have it whenever we want.

But we have to want it and we have to do it.

We, us nobody else
47

alexandermc,

san francisco 11/03/2008 05:17:04
Several hours ago I made a comment regards the need for education and anything would be better than nothing. I have watched the comments on this forum after making my comment about hatred and anger. I have seen little about history but just personal attacks on individuals. We need to rise above this. We are a great nation, we are not petty, we are magnificent, those who made us famous were not attacking others but reading, writing and bettering themselves. The article was about history.
48

Richardinho,

11/03/2008 06:02:12
Well, who says history is all in the past!
49

W Smith,

Middle East 11/03/2008 06:23:07
If the Scots aren't racists then why did Salmond and MacAskill rush down the nearest mosque and 'apologise' in advance for any backlash after the incident at Glasgow Airport?

Or is it only the unionists Scots who 'do' racism?

The bottom line is that the English have given we Scots the choice to stay in the union or leave it.

Tantrums by SNP voters don't change this fact and I don't remember the 'despotic' Queen trying to stop Scots from voting.

It wasn't "the English" that tried to kill hundreds of Scots at Glasgow Aiport - unless the SNP's Osama Saeed has 'evidence' that says otherwise?




50

Beth Boyle,

NY 11/03/2008 06:30:36
Nationalism is a double edged sword like the claymore!
51

Media 1,

cape town 11/03/2008 06:33:09
Scotland is fortunate to have a slightly higher number of pro union supporters, than it does those against the union...
Thankfully, because of that split, we are still part of the union!
But let us not forget that we are part of the union because we want to be, we are not forced to be part of it.
My biggest gripe with Salmond, is that he attempts to use the anti English sentiment in Scotland to push through his indpendence issue. What he should be doing is pushing for a referendum on independence!
Scotland has a great history, and we probably were a little divided and perhaps primitive by comparison to the English prior to the act of the union! So what, we made up for it didnt we?
52

Pilrig.,

Livingston 11/03/2008 06:34:42
10 - Niall Ferguson ? he'd be more suited to a telling history of the British Empire, why not bring in Michael Fry too ? he can add his tendentious "history" of the Highland Clearances.
53

Pilrig.,

Livingston 11/03/2008 06:40:00
52 eh ?

54 - Scotland has a great history ? well the BBC, the Scottish Labour Party and the teaching fraternity up here would beg to differ, judging by their actions.
54

Media 1,

Cape Town 11/03/2008 06:51:27
The Scottish Crown jewels come from corrupt men who sold their own people down the river...We should melt them down and be done with them!!!
The past is over and that is where it must remain!
Scotland is a proud member of the union and we should do what we can to preserve our glorious position within it.
55

Wisnaeme,

11/03/2008 06:52:38

W Smith wrote; "It wasn't the English that tried to kill hundreds of Scots at Glasgow Airport."

Partly true but as to cause and effect, let me see. Bliar an ersatz whatever, Brown an ersatz little Britisher, various little Britisher MP's from the peripheral regions, the majority being from the centre of the universe apparently. Aye there's always a price to pay for warmongering; trouble is it is usually a majority of innocents that pay it. As I said, They say and ordinary folk pay.
.
56

Alastair Murray,

east grinstead 11/03/2008 07:10:29
Why are you surprised. Did you view the BBC commentary of the Calcutta Cup Rugby match on Saturday, dreadful drivel. The people the BBC employs do not have the knowledge or the inclination to deliver facts any longer.
57

eric,

11/03/2008 07:18:13
There are more people in Scotland against union.In victorian era it was other way around.Unionism is already a quaint thing of the past like flares The English have always made things up to suit themselves anyway.I find it amusing more than anything.
58

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/03/2008 07:18:29
Dearie me, Media 1 your at it again!

Media 1 said:-

"My biggest gripe with Salmond, is that he attempts to use the anti English sentiment in Scotland to push through his indpendence issue" - please supply evidence of this racist allegation, perhaps a quote or a link.

"What he should be doing is pushing for a referendum on independence" - hasn't he been doing exactly that?

"The Scottish Crown jewels come from corrupt men who sold their own people down the river" - are you sure you are reading from the right script here Media 1?

"...we should do what we can to preserve our glorious position within it" - as I said, dearie me.

You really are a piece of work my friend.
59

C U Jimmy,

Ayrshire 11/03/2008 07:19:24
If you are a successful Scot, you are British!, If you are a successful Englishman you are English, What else can you expect from the EBC (aka BBC).
60

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/03/2008 07:25:30
Double 'dearie me' from W Smith:-

"The bottom line is that the English have given we Scots the choice to stay in the union or leave it"

Who is disputing that Scots could leave the union at anytime - nobody is, however your subservience has been noted by your above statement 'the English have GIVEN'

"Or is it only the unionists Scots who 'do' racism? - well with comments like yours below 'W' it would seem that you ,as a unionist, have no hesitation in racially slurring people.

"It wasn't "the English" that tried to kill hundreds of Scots at Glasgow Aiport - unless the SNP's Osama Saeed has 'evidence' that says otherwise?"

W Smith and Media 1 - the same person? or sitting beside each other in black comms?

61

Conan the Librarian™,

11/03/2008 07:45:54
31
You are going to bed to pay for another hospital in Glasgow?
You must charge your clients a fortune!
62

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 11/03/2008 07:48:35
Jings this is going to be a fun thread.

Curious George, I tip my hat to you Sir, seldom has such splendid trolling been seen on these hallowed boards. Sleep well in the knowledge that we parsimonious Scots are lighting Monte Cristo's, hand rolled between the virgin thighs of Cuban girlies, with your hard earned fresh English twenty pound notes. Thanks for the subsidies, the subsidies of you, and all the things you do.

Jenny Wormald sounds as if she's about to jump ship too. As for Neil Oliver and his ever so rounded vowels, get a grip.



63

eric,

11/03/2008 07:48:56
31,By the way! is a very Scottish term !
64

Donart/NZ,

NZ 11/03/2008 07:58:53
"Crossed George" AKA "A wee German Geordie"
A very sad man? - can ye no spell "English?"

Is XENAPHOBIC the same as Xenophobic?

Our royalty is Greek/German - Jimmy the 1st/6th wisny.

Am jist donart.
65

Donart/NZ,

Enzed 11/03/2008 08:00:39
On reflection - thank god for Mel Gibson.
66

david team,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:01:01
a country to be proud of ?

not at this time bigotry violence drugs

not until its people get their act together
67

Gdgy,

11/03/2008 08:02:31
What a lot of tosh - the SNPites are fanning up their anti-Englsih rants (not much fanning needed there)and those with a anti-BBC slant have sharpened their already sharp knives

But no one knows what the series will be like! One historian resigned from the advisory board but he didn't like a phrase that may be used...
68

Unimpressed one,

11/03/2008 08:07:09
#5, chinabear, you should understand that this issue goes to the very core of the Scots' constitution. We love to pick a fight with anyone, but preferably the English. Religion, football, politics and drink just about sums up our nation, and from these obsessions flow our present woes.
69

Conan the Librarian™,

11/03/2008 08:08:00
66
Oscar,am intrigued by the title "Lords and Men in Scotland: Bonds of Manrent."by Jenny Wormald.

Do you think crosslegged George would be interested?
70

McStumpy,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:09:24
#5 nailed this at the start - the story here revolves around two historians taking the huff because their noses were put out of joint.

Editor - is that the sound of fingernails on barrel bottom I hear??
71

Donart/NZ,

NZ 11/03/2008 08:17:11
A number of years ago (just over 50) and as a new New Zealander frae Auld Reekie I was told by a wise old man that there are two types o' people in the warld - Scotsmen and them that wad like tae be! I don't think he was biased.

His name was Jock Williamson!!
72

Gusto,

11/03/2008 08:20:59
60. Alastair.
Yes, toe-curling gibberish from TWO English accents - I'm guessing one was Welsh - if not - really stupid.
And of course Scotland won because England were absolutely dreadfull. Even Gary Linneker does a better job of covering his anti-scottishness than these shell-shocked so-called commentators.
Scottish history? - leave that to the English - they wrote it. We just have to write our own someday.
73

david team,

11/03/2008 08:21:53
can someone tell me pls if scotland was independent would the browns and the darlings and the rest have to find english constituencies ? and do they think they would be successful ?
74

Conan the Librarian™,

11/03/2008 08:23:25
76
Morning Spook.Leith today.Did my stint last night...
75

Donart/NZ,

NZ 11/03/2008 08:27:27
#78 Davie

I dinny ken aboot the Browns and Darlings but the "Broons" and "Oor Wullie" wid have nae bother finding a constituency in Alba.

#76 frae Leith - hope you have a guid day at Uni - I'm awa tae ma bed and will have a read of this 'amusing' thread in the morning.

Here's tae us etc. etc......
76

Jay Kay,

11/03/2008 08:28:06
Thank god we don't have a Tv we wont have to put up with this vile cr*p and we don't have to shell out to the EBC to have it made, more propeganda to brainwash the public into thinking the Union was the greatest thing to ever happen to our wee country, if we never had this bl**dy union and had been an independant country we would be one of the ritchest nations in the world so many natural reasources that we could have sold and made our people billionairs every one of them but no wait I forgot the Government have pulled the wool down over our eyes and sold us the notion that its Britains OIL and GAS meanwhile we have to fight for scraps from Westmonsters table, sit up and beg for your own money boys.

Now don't get me wrong I sympathise greatly with the people of England I have a lot of English friends but its the rotten to the core government I have a major issue with, the fat cat corruption and sleeze has destroyed any notion that the government are working for one reason only to prop up their own bank accounts and to support the super elite, the rest of the great unwashed can go to hell as far as their concerned.

I vote for rounding them all up and sending them on the first banana boat over to europe where they can all stay and play at being important, meanwhile we set up a whole new government and start to make the system work for the people
77

Mcsnagpile,

11/03/2008 08:29:39
A programme on the Act of Union with the Irish might be a good follow up.
78

Donart/NZ,

Enzed 11/03/2008 08:31:23
Jimmy Logan Baird has a lot to answer for!
79

Donart/NZ,

Enzed 11/03/2008 08:33:26
Dragonhead

Neither although I live near Dunedin - myself went to Preston Lodge in neolithic 1953!
80

Donart/NZ,

NZ 11/03/2008 08:36:13
Dragonhead

By the way is this what they call a chat room? My real name is Alastair, darling. I'm 23 female and friendly.!!
81

HughB,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:40:51
I remember a terrible programme presented by Tony Robinson about William Wallace. It was so anglo-centric in it's view, and called William Wallace an outlaw and a traitor.

It was edward I who was the outlaw king of england because of all the invasions and war crimes commited against civilian men, women and children, especially at Berwick, where he killed the entire population.

Who knows what true history is, and nobody can claim to have the master knowledge of everything that happened hundreds of years ago, and you can't trust one countries account of another countries history, because it will always be biased in terms of how it affected them, or how it went against what they wanted the world to look like.

Another thing is the dismissal of Blind Harry's account of William Wallaces adventures. Of course they will try to dismiss anything that shows that William Wallace beat the enemy on numerous occassions, more than the "enemy" of the time dared record in their own version of events.

This new series should be called "The English Version of Scottish History", because that's all it is - yet another attempt to rewrite history in favour of the union. They think if they keep telling it they way they want it to be, then everybody else will end up accepting it.

It's easy to be a historian, or an archeologist, or anything like that, because a lot of the time there is no evidence for or against any version of events, and nobody can easily dispute anything which is said or claimed.
82

Donart/NZ,

NZ 11/03/2008 08:42:51
The first casualty of war is TRUTH.

History is written by the victors.
83

Ally,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:44:58
"To quote you sir; "PAROCHIAL, XENAPHOBIC, RACIST, BIGOTED AND SELF OBSESSED RACE" "

Hmmm. Actually I think we are parochial and self obsessed, and a fair number are bigoted. Xenophobic (I shall excuse the English-educated spelling of the original)...well, only where England is concerned. And having lived in France, England and America, we do have racists but we're a damn sight better off than most.

What is a pain in the backside, however, is our habit of spouting bile about the English for four years at a time then dutifully voting to get ruled by them again come election time. If you voted SNP, you've got a right to complain about our treatment by the English. Otherwise, frankly, you're England's bitch and she's going to treat you that way.

I moved back to Scotland having worked in various bits of England for 15 years, the main reason being that I was starting a family and Scotland is far and away the better place to bring kids up. It's generally safer, the health and education services are better and there's more sense of community. It's easy to pick out a thousand exceptions but in general terms I defy anyone to prove me wrong.

Oh, and I get to leave people like "George" behind...
84

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 11/03/2008 08:47:03
When did Scots get so fired up about historical accuracy? Braveheart was largely fictitional rubbish but it still had the audiences in Scotland clapping and cheering. I knew it was rubbish but I still loved it and still think it was a great film.
85

jtdx,

11/03/2008 08:50:18
I am just trying to figure out what the phrase "Scotland was a divided nation" has to do with England.
86

john z,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:54:09
'Headline: STATE broadcaster uses its influence for political control. BBC Scotland, widely know for being under the State control of the English parliament has at last come clean.

Sounds more like communist Russia everyday.
87

Donart/NZ,

NZ 11/03/2008 08:55:01
Because England like Scotland was originally not a unified kingdom. There wasn't a unified Englische kingdom until (help me you educated Scots) - anyway we all evolved from Angles Saxons and Jutes et al apart from the Picts who were perhaps the only indigenous people in Grand Bretagne!
88

GP,

11/03/2008 08:55:52
I am amazed that history is debated with such anger and venom. At primary school we were taught about local history and national history. Very little about UK or British history that is left for the secondary.
We also were given insights into the social end economic impacts of actions taken by governments.
Such as the creation of new east coast docks to destroy the Berwick economy. The undermining of local industry to enforce movement of labour south.
I suggest that parents demand local history teachings are brought back as it provides a sound understanding of what your ancestors did to ensure your current lifestyles.
89

sweet76,

Coventry 11/03/2008 08:56:19
I would love to see an honest, factual account of Scotland's history. Any fact based programme on the BBC would be good instead of the politically correct rubbish they promote. They had a golden opportunity to highlight the difficulties faced by the working class English and decided to kick it off with an interveiw with Nick Gimp from the BNP. Idiots.

#91 Donart NZ. The first casualty of war is innocence not truth.

#90. 'This new series should be called "The English Version of Scottish History", because that's all it is'. Bold statement. Have you seen this programme that hasn't been produced yet?
90

Rob7,

England 11/03/2008 08:57:58
I love history. I tend to watch any history program on tv etc, read the books etc. I would be interested in watching a history program about Scotland. When at school I was told only English history - didn't know anything about the act of union etc. I don't know if it would be a History from an English point of view - if so that would be a pitty, and a waste of time.
91

Jacqueline Hyde ,

11/03/2008 08:59:11
It appears that the proposed series is only a quasi-political documentary covering the last few hundred years rather than the formation of a nation from Caledonian ("Pict"), Hibernian ("Scots"), Germanic ("Saxon") and Nordic ("Viking") roots.

So, as Scottish kings and queens have also sat on the English throne since the mis-named "Union" of the Crowns in 1603, it is quite logical that the series should focus on the Scotland-England relationship.
92

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:01:20
china bear ,another outsider shoving their nose in
93

Donart/NZ,

Otago 11/03/2008 09:01:32
#97 GP

What a nice balanced comment. (Really)) - I suspect you do not have the advantage/burden of being either English or Scottish.

I've often heard here in NZ that far too much time is spent in schools teaching "British" history to the neglect of our own.

The secret is to retain a sense of humour, a talent the Scots have be it very dry.
94

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:06:50
#96,We the Scots were NOT evolved from the angles and saxons,thats the English you are thinking of.Put bluntly the english are just a bunch of illegal immigrants
95

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:08:22
Looking forward to the episode when the BBC cover our recent history, for example how the UK dealt with the discovery of North Sea Oil.
Lied throughout the early years to prevent the Scots finding out how much was there and how long it would flow.
How much more of our history is hidden from us ?
Lord Goldsmith wants to drop the verses of the national anthem that are not usually sung. Would he be thinking about the third verse of the English anthem ? Why not have a new anthem to celebrate the emergence of true Britishness ? In fact why not get Parliament to pass a few acts so that in future Britain will be used instead of UK ?
In case you are unaware of it the third verse of our antiquated anthem -
"God grant that Marshall Wade,
May by Thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the Queen."
96

Donart/NZ,

Otago 11/03/2008 09:08:43
#97 GP

What a nice balanced comment. (Really)) - I suspect you do not have the advantage/burden of being either English or Scottish.

I've often heard here in NZ that far too much time is spent in schools teaching "British" history to the neglect of our own.

The secret is to retain a sense of humour, a talent the Scots have be it very dry.

#98 You say "innocence" I'll stick to "Truth" my following comment qualifies the first.

I'm definitely hitting the hay until the morning .

97

Nyren,

Cambridge,MA 11/03/2008 09:09:24
Ah, Scotia. When I produced my 2 vol. "Marginal Scotland" in 1989, I had to retrieve the 'lost' copy of the original manuscript from an Edinburgh printer's shelf,give the revised copy to a Swiss publisher, and watch while Gordon Donaldson ("It's his fiefdom !" said my old friend Sir Geoffrey Elton, who wouldn't do more than agree that it was very worthy)and his toadies in two Scottish Universities saw to it that no reputable Scottish journal reviewed it. The Swiss were not amused, and Dame Veronica Wedgwood, OM, and Robert Ogilvie,FBA, who advised on the revision of a years lost MSS and commended it to the press were dumfounded. Lord Hugh Douglas-Hamilton's sleuthing had found the long lost MSS which was revised and sent to Berne. Which is worse, the Tory and Nationalist censors in Scotland in 1989-forward, or the London BBC ? I recall lunch with the then head of BBC Scotland when a fop from the House of Lords phoned to ask Sir Andrew Stewart for some "titbit" to throw into a speech in the Lords "to amuse them" about Scotland. Hail Caledonia ! Keep the salmon flying through the waters ! Sir John Imrie got a similar call while we were disgussing the ancient MSS I found at Inverary Castle, which John turned into a proper archive there.
John Nyren Buchanan, Cambridge, MA 02138, U.S.A.
98

Donart/NZ,

Somewhere in the South Pacific 11/03/2008 09:15:05
Dear 106

As Eric and Ernie would have said, "There's no answer to that!"
99

Donart/NZ,

Me again 11/03/2008 09:20:18
#103

And I'll bet that you deny that Mel Gibson has Merovingian ancestry?
100

radical theologian,

california 11/03/2008 09:20:23
It's amazing how steamed up people can get about something nobody's seen. Are you all suggesting these academics have anything but their own self-interest at heart? Making a good TV program that anyone will want to watch is a complex business, and it needs to have entertainment value as well as factual stuff.
101

eric,

11/03/2008 09:26:15
Scotland was too busy trading with Europeans,While England was too busy fighting them.
102

mr angry,

ayrshire 11/03/2008 09:31:56
#106 One can only hope that you are inebriated , otherwise please seek therapy , you seem to have a dose of verbal diahorea.
103

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 09:34:54
Initially, I thought a new series about Scottish history would be great, but it seems the BBC have botched it again - Scottish history as viewed by the English!

It's kind of like the thousands of documentary programmes about Nazi Germany - nearly always the Allies point of view and never from the ordinary German position!

Indeed, history is said to be written by the percieved victors, and it seems Scotland is no different. Surely we've had enough of English indifference and arrogance and it's time to write a new chapter and create our own history......

As Mel Gibson famously said - FREEEEEEDOM!!!!!!
104

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 11/03/2008 09:38:00
there is well over 1700 years of Scottish history before the union. If so called historians can't make a television programme about that then they should all take early retirement.
105

kimba,

11/03/2008 09:38:12
You can't please all of the people all of the time,but at least wait until you have seen it before you all pass judgement!
106

Miss H,

11/03/2008 09:39:24
50 I think everyone can agree that there is a need for more education but it is important that it is of the quality we would expect of a public service broadcaster. On the basis of this article I think there are grounds for concern. The suggestion that Scotland was a divided country for example - is that a way, as Professor Macinnes suggests, of implying that Scotland was not a 'real' country prior to the Union. Is it made clear that actually every country in Europe was divided and most of the countries which now exist in the world did not exist at the time of the Union?

It would be incredibly depressing if this becomes a series which tells Scotland's story only in relationship to England. That's not good history - it is parochial, inward looking and politically motivated. We have had enough of that kind of backwardness thank you very much.

107

Air Sense,

Durban , South Africa 11/03/2008 09:41:46
Dear me gentlemen , What an entainment but the truth is often said in jest . If you don't like my comments just press delete - no hard feelings . Is history not supposed t obe based on facts and are facts not derived from true incidents so recorded . Ah yes , the recording bit was a bit shaky in colonial times but I just have to tell you all this from this part of the world . SA was also ruled by the British , especially my province which is referred to as the Last Outpost and so there is a lot of history to tell besides the ref to general war records . The was a Scotsman here called Dunn who befriended a Zulu chief and took about 50 wives and fathered oever a 100 children . THey became known as the Dunn clan and the decendents still carry the surname of the famous Dunn and can be found in at every level of society here . THese people are referred to as coloured because they have black and white blood ( mixed ) but remain proud of their Scots heritage . THey are all Christians , live by the word of the good book , a generous and embody such humility they seem like a lot race just discovered . I know of many have met them and interacted with them on some local community porjects and I cannot but wonder what a wonderful influence the patriarch , Mr Dunn had in that has survived him . Mr Dunn was also a very generous and kind man who helped everybody and as repayment for some his good deeds and off course with having many wives the Zulu chieftan gave him a lot of land in this province of what was initially known as Port Natal and now Kwa Zulu Natal . I mention all of this because one of the greatest ironies with the Dunn clan issue as been perpetrated by the Brisih government who sought todeprive him of his gift of land ! The governments escapades in this regard is so suitably and ironically described by George in his descriptionof ... the Scots !! The British were the true architects of apratheid in this country and the result of fragmentation that resulted when fully
108

Miss H,

11/03/2008 09:43:49
92 I would say the opposite. If you vote SNP you don't have a right to complain about the English because you have moved beyond the place where everything that happens in and to Scotland is somehow because of England. The day we stop measuring ourselves by our relationship with the ENglish is the day we will finally become an independent and free people.
109

Johnny G,

Hamilton 11/03/2008 09:46:15
This show should be welcomed and some people need a reality check. Let them show it THEN it can be criticised if it's wide of the mark.

It's content should not be driven by agenda driven pseudo nationalists and republicans, and nothing should be left out.

Let's not see the nationalist lunatic fringe, anti English bigots, and anti Protestant bigots try to wipe out the greatest moments in Scotlands history such as the Reformation, or apply their revisionism to the Enlightenment.

Bottom line here is this.
The show will be far better off without the agenda driven Devine, and the mercenary MacInnes.

If anyone from the BBC happens to look in here then ignore the small minded critics and get on with making a programme on the history if this great nation.
110

Jo Jo,

11/03/2008 09:53:37
I would not read or listen to anything that Devine is involved in.
He would gladly re-write history to suit his views if he thought he could get away with it.
Historian my backside.
111

Nemo,

God's own country 11/03/2008 09:56:40
The fact that 'Crossed George' cannot even spell xenophobic is perfectly representative of his argument.
112

dimba,

11/03/2008 09:56:42
yeah - you can't pleese all of the peepil all of the time,but witth the bbc tradition of acuracie, which we have lots of here in stockton,at least wait until you have seen it before you all pass judgement! and i'm sure sis agrees with me.
113

Air Sense,

Durban SA 11/03/2008 09:56:52
integrated communities where shattered . THe afrikaaner simply refined the British standard . I am sorry guys but the rest of the text was lost and cannot retype it now however it suffices to state with the exception of my example that to this day there remains a strict divide in the psyche of the local people i.e. the old blacks and Indians of the definition of what British is . A person is just not British , they are BRisitish Welsh ( greedy cheating people ) British English ( also greedy but also very vindictive and agressive . Ruthless when dealing with money and land issues - not to trusted as they are known for their duplicity ) and then there is the Scots British who although tight fisted is a fair man regardless and remains considerate of the other parties difficulties and always willing to reach a compromise and which trait has unfortunately been ruthlessly exploited but what's new ? The process of life is dynamic as is evolution and likewise history . The time has come for people to regain their birthright and take pride in their country and their futures , to show off the fruit of their work and all of those things come with securing the perimenter first and setting standards that will remain in place as the building blocks for better things to come so it therefore time for England to leave Scotland to the Scots and allow the natives of the land to develop it in the colours and flavours they desire not some misguided import . I apologise for the length but there is no shorter way to try and put it perspective . Dare I say I have a lot more to contribute but the hour grows late for me .
114

Air Sense,

SA 11/03/2008 09:58:17
Pls excuse the spelling errors .
115

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 11/03/2008 09:58:26
For a most enlightening history of very early Scotland to after WW2 read "Beyond the Highland Line - Highland History and Culture" by Caroline Bingham.
Remind the BBC that they are putting on a show on a Scottish invention and thank John Logie Baird.
116

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 09:58:59
scottishcoffindodgerno1 (103): "#96,We the Scots were NOT evolved from the angles and saxons,thats the English you are thinking of.Put bluntly the english are just a bunch of illegal immigrants"

One current theory amongst historians is that the Saxons were initially brought in my the Romans as auxiliaries, making them legal immigrants. More seriously, the total number of Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, etc formed a smaller proportion of the total than is commonly thought; see, for example, Stephen Oppenheimer's excellent genetic review:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-British-Genetic-Detective-Story/dp/1845294823/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205229626&sr=8-1

117

archie23,

london 11/03/2008 10:01:16
Crossed George,

Did you really expect the Scots to welcome you with open arms when you spout such arrogant nonsense about how you
pay for Scottish hospitals with your taxes ?

Did you really not have any idea that that particular type of ill informed garbage is unlikely to encourage the Scots to treat you as their equal?

With attitudes you have displayed on this thread one can only imagine what else you told the Scots about themselves.

It is no wonder that you were sent packing back over the border. The only pity is that you returned to England and did not p+ss off somewhere else because we don't need you here.

118

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 11/03/2008 10:02:20
How clever of the BBC. What better way to stimulate some interest in and discussion of Scottish history.

There will of course be attempts from all sides to make political capital out of this, which should add to the entertainment. Lets hope the substance of the programs will justify the level of interest.
119

Boy Wonder,

11/03/2008 10:04:07
I'd like the programme to reflect Scotland's birth from it's pre-Celtic roots, with more emphasis and research on the evolution of the various Celtic tribes and clans into Pictish kingdoms of Cat, Fidach, Ce, Circind, Fotla, Fortriul, Fib, the British Strathclyde, Goddodin, North Rheged, Bryneich and the establishment of Dal nRiata, up to the Viking invasions and the emergence of Scotland as a nation. That's our real history. You do get heartily sick of the old Scotland v England debate.
Scotland had important relations with the emerging European powers long before it settled affairs with the Auld Enemy, particularly in her trading partnerships with the likes of Antwerp and Denmark.
120

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 10:08:23
Auld twa (104): "In case you are unaware of it the third verse of our antiquated anthem -
"God grant that Marshall Wade,
May by Thy mighty aid, . . ."

That verse was briefly popular around 1745, but was abandoned before it (effectively) became the national anthem in the 1780s and 1790s: your complaint therefore refers to more than two centuries in the past; see, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen

Still, if you're worried by offensive sentiments in national anthems, albeit from the mid-18th century, presumably you also believe "Flower of Scotland" to be, shall we say, somewhat tactless?
121

dimba,

11/03/2008 10:08:49
Scotlandf traded with an twerp? haha! You scots have no history! Thats why you needs to belong to the UK - to get sum HISTORY! lol!
122

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 10:09:21
#128,

Don't forget the Scottish trading centres in Poland and Russia.
123

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 11/03/2008 10:11:13
#17 MacAlba

Thanks for showing the world what Scottish Nationalists are really all about: simple, blatant, racism. You REALLY DO hate English people and you are a bigoted, ignorant, foaming at the mouth idiot to boot.

If you said any of these things about black people, or Muslims, I expect you would be banned from this forum in a second. But uts OK to hate English people in Scotland isn't it?
124

oder,

Scotland 11/03/2008 10:12:50
18 CROSSED GEORGE,England and Proud 11

"Shame you haven't moved on in the last 800 years, like the rest of the world has"

Scotland needs to catch up with the rest of the world and since the rest of the world is independent, is that not the right direction to go in?

"We English might have our faults, but at least we are not the most PAROCHIAL, XENAPHOBIC, RACIST, BIGOTED AND SELF OBSESSED RACE in the world. You Scots will always lead the way with these unpleasant traits of yours".


your aggressive outburst above is as intolerant as any
posted by any "anti English" posters here!

"O`Wad the pow`er the giftie gie us to see oorsels is ithers see us!"

cheer up George! there will always be an England.


125

Lock,

11/03/2008 10:13:53
In an independent Scotland do we get to chuck people like McAlba out? I'd vote for that.
126

Lock,

11/03/2008 10:18:06
Scotland needs to catch up with the rest of the world and since the rest of the world is independent, is that not the right direction to go in?

=================

What?

127

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 10:18:39
MacAlba (17): "I wonder if this docco will depict the brutal and horrific mass-murder of innocents throughout the highlands, subsequent to Culloden"

Let's hope so. I wonder if it will also cover the Battle of Flodden (1513), in which James IV invaded England to aid France; he was utterly defeated and killed, together with many Scottish nobles, at Flodden. I wonder if it will also cover the Covenanters deal with Charles II in the Civil War, following which Leslie was defeated by Cromwell at Dunbar in 1650? Following Cromwell's conquest of Scotland, the entire nation was annexed to form the Commonwealth of England; see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_england

I wonder if we'll hear about this. Or will this documentary prefer to concentrate on Scottish history from 700 years ago, rather than 300?
128

Gothic Rose,

11/03/2008 10:20:46
15# Scullion.
"for me to think it as a boy"Only reflects your opinion, objective or otherwise.Also of doubt,otherwise why leave.?
129

tassiestag,

rosebery 11/03/2008 10:24:23
#130 dimba.......dont you mean DUMBO?
130

bill-alba,

Fife 11/03/2008 10:31:43
As an independence supporter...I have no desire to see a programme on Scotlands history made from any foreign country, I also have no desire to argue the case with head in the sand unionists or their equally racists supporters in england who appear to have come directly from the Crossofstgeorge website.
I don't care what the English newspapers print about us getting subsidies from the foreign parliament in Westminstes. I have no desire to give my thoughts on what will become of England after our independence. All Scots already know enough about Scottish history to know that we were betrayed by our own Scottish parliament albeit with threats and bribes from a foreign country and that after this 1707 treaty that the same people who betrayed the country then went on to support and profit from the empire so whatever the programme manages to distort is of no significance.
131

dimba,

11/03/2008 10:31:45
139 testic-les: leave me an kimba out of this,GOT IT?
132

oder,

Scotland 11/03/2008 10:33:27
122 Air Sense,Durban SA

good post!

you gave good and accurate account of the situation in SA as to the Britsh,I have heard the story of the Dunn clan before,and was there not a Flynn character as well a doctor I believe also at Port Natal?
133

Drum Major,

Brisbane Australia 11/03/2008 10:36:19
#103 You need to study your history, know that Caladonia was early Celtic Britons who were neither Picts or Scots. The Angles were in Northumbria and moved into the Borders. Meanwhile the Danes were giving the East coast, Mann, the Hebrides and the Shetlands curry.
134

morris,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 10:38:55
If the BBC make a programme on Scottish history we all know what to expect.It will be from an English approved perspective and designed as a brainwashing exercise,where poor little Scotland was taken under the wing of Benevolent Mother England and survived.She would have been eaten by the big bad wolf otherwise!
The truth is what is wanted,and if historians cannot agree then SAY SO!

WE should never forget that his organisation published an opinion poll and later had to apologise when it was proven(and subsequently admitted in apologising)that they (Paxton and Cohorts)had made it up!

That should carry a custodial sentence in my opinion , since it sought to interfere with the democratic process of fairness in representation of the facts!

Ignore the BBC .WE all know they are the British Brainwashing Corporation and spend our licence fee outside Scotland.Even the figures they supplied for Scotland showing 3% spent here were falsified!

The true figure was 2% .WE contribute approx 9%.
STV are not much better!
The first 5.30 show was tantamount to a Labour Party broadcast,but then so are the newsreels which give credence to Labour Press Releases ,and suggest they are newsworthy.They are total brainwashing Unionist bullshit!

I want a free press and media and if they must enter the political arena, then allow both sides of the argument to be represented, with a direct response from EACH of the parties.
The BBC should not be a tool of imperialist ambitions ,but it sure as hell behaves like one.
The question" Why" can only have one answer!
135

dimba,

11/03/2008 10:39:27
yes, but Stockton have always been english..we've nver had ne1 from outside our gene pull.
136

dimba,

11/03/2008 10:41:30
...obviously, except for the nice indians and chinese hoo make the foods I love, and that german chap from down the road, and the italian people, but we are all british - GOT IT?
137

,

11/03/2008 10:42:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
138

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 10:42:18
Why am I not surprised to hear that the BBC cant produce and objective view on Scottish history???
You might as well take Scottish history lessons from the Labour or Tory parties.
139

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 10:45:46
Jackie Priest (146): "The fact is that Scotland was a nation before England"

It's certainly true that, by tradition, Kenneth MacAlpin is accounted first king of Scots from 843 (although it's disputed), whilst England was not unified until 927, by Alfred the Great's grandson Athelstan. Why, however, is this important to you?
140

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 11/03/2008 10:47:15
Good morning, Gothic Rose.

Such a lot of uninformed and wacky postings.

I see Draghead is spouting his usual illiterate nonsense.

It would be nice if this "history" of Scotland includes the Scottish diaspora, especially as it applies to Canada.

Our first Prime Minister was Sir John Alexander Macdonald, a proud and drunken Glaswegian (aren't they all?) and we have an airport and an interprovincial bridge named after him.

There is a huge population of Scots expats here and they add colour and intelligence to our immigrant mix.

Will Queen Elizabeth the Second be referred to as "Queen Elizabeth the First of Scotland" and will the sorry tale of the Stone of Scone be finally rescured from its muddled history?
141

oder,

Scotland 11/03/2008 10:47:31
135 Lock,11/03/2008 10:18:06

sorry! lock didn't mean to confuse you! most if not all members of the now defunct British Empire have attained Independence! it would be better for Scots to make all decisions concern Scotland taken in Scotland internal and external rather than having it approved by Westminster first! just like everyone else!
142

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 10:48:49
Jwil (150): "Also the American who says that we should get on with it and do it ourselves is ignorant of the situation here."

The American commentator starts from different axioms. He would no doubt ask why Scots need a state-broadcaster to do this, and so do I. Given the trivial cost and high quality of digital cameras, and given the existence of Scottish historians who might be interested in the project, why does this need the BBC at all? Let the SNP coordinate a Scottish academics (and perhaps independent film-makers) to produce an alternative DVD.
143

IaininSelkirk,

Edinburgh this week 11/03/2008 10:54:36
Who crossed George??? See #19/25/26/27...etc...etc

Having noted his comments on several of today's articles, it's apparent that this guy has been up most of the night trawling the Scotsman pages for any reference to england which - he feels - might require him to retaliate on behalf of the whole english nation.
Sad little man really should go to bed earlier on school nights.
144

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 10:55:10
Wheeeewh....that was some barney in the playground last night whin ye's aw crossed swords wae poor wee 'crossed George'...seems tae hiv sent him packing awrite....

72...Pretty damn accurate description of a lot of my fellow countrymen, but then we Scots tend to be passionate about out interests and have low tolerance levels for those who 'interfere'...

145

AJM,

11/03/2008 11:02:22
I would be very surprised if the BBC were not well aware of the potential for causing offence. However they should not pander to any political view and try and produce a balanced documentary. That said if they upset some people that want a narrow version of Scottish history to fit in with their current political ambitions.

It should be a warning what could happen if they get hold of the history curriculum and the broadcasting media.
146

morris,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 11:04:07
152 Fairfax,11/03/2008 10:45:46

Clearly Jackie makes the point that
1)Scotland has survived on her own longer than she has been in the UK.
2) Scotland has been in existence longer than even England has.(if you accept Kenneth MacCalpin of course as the first king,but in fact it may be that he is the Pictish source only ,and it was in fact Kenneth III some years later, who presided over both Pict and Dal Riata or Dalriada.
Im sure like me he recognises the indisputible economic strength of an independent Scotland,but occasionally responds to histroical attempts by Unionists to distract us from the future, by arguing the past and suggesting that we base our independence claims upon historical arguments.WE DO NOT.
We have no need to when the economic case is so strong.
What we should be asking is Why do we tolerate these attempts to distract us from attaining self determination.The answer is WE NO LONGER DO!
147

dimba,

11/03/2008 11:04:45
i'm bord of haviong a scotsman running our country and another as chansellor. its time for english indipendance.
148

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek AUSTRALIA 11/03/2008 11:06:40
DR FIONA WATSON WOULD HAVE BEEN MY CHOICE FOR THIS SERIES, SHE IS BRILLIANT.
149

Harbinger,

south of the border 11/03/2008 11:06:51
He said another reason he resigned was the programme makers expected his time for free. "They seem to regard working for the BBC as an unpaid honour."

Seems to me this may have been the primary reason for his discontent....
150

morris,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 11:07:11
158

I agree and I am an SNP member.
We DO NOT WANT a pro SNP media or Press.
WE WANT A FREE and OPEN PRESS who report facts or failing that BOTH SIDES of any argument.

The fear of a Press which is biased is what we HAVE NOW!
151

morris,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 11:12:30
162 Harbinger,south of the border 11/03/2008 11:06:51

Irrespective of his reasons and what was uppermost in his thoughts,the fact remains that BBC Scotland are NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE and untrustworthy.

He is historian of some renown.If he says the programme was unacceptable on content,then we should at least take his view seriously ,especially since he is apparently supported by other historians who have knowledge of this and agree with him!
152

grannie,

Glasgow 11/03/2008 11:16:52
England Ireland Scotland Wales all tied up like the monkeys tails. I remember this was taught to us as children. Most families in Scotland if tracing their family would find they have ancesters from at least two of these countries. Govan in the 1840's would appear to have been almost the New Town of that era as English, Irish and workers from the Scottish Islands and Highlands all moved to that area for work in shipbuilding etc. There must be very few families who do not have family ties in England. However I am still Proud to be Scottish
153

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 11:18:43
morris (159): "2) Scotland has been in existence longer than even England has.(if you accept Kenneth MacCalpin"

My point, however, is why does the claim to being an older nation than England matter to Scots? I mentioned MacAlpin's traditional role as first king of Scots in 843 in my original post -- as you point out, it's disputed in any case. England was unified in 927 (not disputed), so there were merely slightly more than 50 years between them.
154

kimba,

11/03/2008 11:19:57
DIMBA. YOU MAY THINK YOUR INFANTILE BEHAVIOR IN MIMICKING ME {APPALLINLY BY THE WAY} WILL DETER ME FROM COMMENTING ON THESE BOARDS, YOU HAVE JUST CONFIRMED WHAT ALL ENGLAND KNOWS; CERTAIN SCOTS ARE JUST MORONIC,INFANTILE,AND VERY BILLIOUS INDIVIDUALS.
155

yockel,

11/03/2008 11:24:29
Billious - As in like being married to Margaret Thatcher?
156

dimba,

11/03/2008 11:24:41
but my name isnt billy?
157

walter,

11/03/2008 11:25:38
Prof Allan Macinnes historian resigns from the advisory committee because he does not believe the first draft of the programme content to be right.
Another Prof of history Tom Devine refused to even sit on the advisory committee but complained about the programme.
If these two pillars of the historical community are complaining that the programme is not going to give the correct facts why are they putting themselves on the outside, why are they not ensuring that they are on the inside making sure that the true facts are within the final script.
As for prof Devine complaining about an archaeologist presenting the programme why not.
Archaeology has on many occasions made historians revisit what they believed to be historical fact.
Archaeologists are just as important to the events of the past as historians.
Mind you the BBC are wasting money on this programme, all true Scots (that is those that support the nationalist cause as the rest of us are not true Scots actually we are not even Scots in their eyes)know that every thing that has happened is England's fault.
158

dimba,

11/03/2008 11:26:15
thats my mate kimba - she's always kidding around! Eh, kimba! ;) You going down the norton rd club later? see u there sis!
159

Ken S.,

Reading 11/03/2008 11:26:20
#103 scottishcoffindodgerno1,
"Put bluntly the English are just a bunch of illegal immigrants."

....Whereas the Scots didn't originally come from Ireland (and, before that, from Scythia if the Declaration of Arbroath is to be taken literally, possibly via pre-England, leaving a gene or two behind them en route).
And I do believe that the Vikings slipped unnoticed past immigration control all over these islands.

I doubt that any of us can claim any sort of ancestral racial purity. Flexible thing this history, eh?
160

A Voice From Scotland,

11/03/2008 11:28:28
25
CROSSED GEORGE,
Freedom for England 11/03/2008 02:36:10
21

Thank you for leaving and staying away. Although your moniker and your comments have more than a whiff of the usual Scotsman tactic of using neds on Buckfast to seed abuse and insults with a view to provoking hostility on this forum.
The unionist gang hut is truly a desperate place to be these days with paranoia rife, and rabid foam flecked neds spraying abuse around as they see the SNP disappearing over the horizon leading us to independence.
The EBC is the last chance salon for the fascist state of the UK, who need Scotland's wealth to pay for their imperialistic foreign policy. No wonder Alex Salmond is so popular and successful as Prime Minister of the Scottish Government.
The EBC are as irrelevant and insignificant now as Nieu Liebour and Unionism is in Scotland. The EBC are a complete joke who are controlled by Liebour since they bottled out after the Iraq dossier scandal.
The new Broadcasting House for the EBC on Pacific Quay, Glasgow is nothing more than a monumental symbol of Unionist fascism, filled with quislings all e-mailing London. For what they produce there a Portakabin would have been sufficient.
161

A Voice From Scotland,

11/03/2008 11:35:17
167
kimba,
11/03/2008 11:19:57


Switch of your caps lock you dreadful smelly troll. Still stinging from your humping at Murayfield are we, your sad sad bunch of wimps could not scrum their way out of a wet paper bag Scotland's womens team would thrash them oh I forgot they deliberately lost to teach the coach a lesson what a horrible example you are of English nation hood.
I think another Lobotomy is looming for you, see if you can get some liposuction also and a steam clean as you are impersonating a Fleetwood trawler right now.
162

A Voice From Scotland,

11/03/2008 11:35:17
167
kimba,
11/03/2008 11:19:57


Switch of your caps lock you dreadful smelly troll. Still stinging from your humping at Murayfield are we, your sad sad bunch of wimps could not scrum their way out of a wet paper bag Scotland's womens team would thrash them oh I forgot they deliberately lost to teach the coach a lesson what a horrible example you are of English nation hood.
I think another Lobotomy is looming for you, see if you can get some liposuction also and a steam clean as you are impersonating a Fleetwood trawler right now.
163

dimba,

11/03/2008 11:38:39
look, you leave me an kimba alone - i'm still very bitter about england loosign that game and we had all this stuff to say to mock you scots had england shown you who is master, but that can wait because im fed up having scots for prime munsters and chansellors.
164

Saul Tyre,

Germany 11/03/2008 11:40:11
Crossed George is the nom de plume of David Cairns. Possibly.
165

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 11:41:55
Why oh why, can't kimba and her sister dimba find another newspaper for their silly nonsense? Everyday, it seems, they turn these threads into a mockery!
166

GP,

11/03/2008 11:44:28
102# that may have something to do with our teacher being from Port Seton.
167

Hebb,

11/03/2008 11:45:22
#2 Encarta:
"Supporting the Hobos and drinking malt does not qualify as "having a life" in the real world."

Oh, I don't know - seems like the perfect combination!

Of course, as a Believer you are no doubt enjoying yet another season of domestic and Champions' League triumphs in "the real world" of Vlad.

On the issue of the BBC's initial proposals for yet another Anglocentric take on Scottish history Prof. Macinnes makes a valid point.

As regards this being a divided nation, that's probably more true today than at any time since the forced marriage of 1707. On one side we now have the great majority of Scots: enlightened pro-independence and devolution max supporters who see more and more powers returning to this country. On the other side are the rump of bunker mentality unionists who will always look to London for orders from their political masters and who despise the very idea of Scots running their own affairs.

There's only going to be one winner in this contest in the long run. It isn't Westminster.
168

Alfie Bett,

11/03/2008 11:46:28
Professor Allan Macinnes told The Scotsman that he had resigned from the series' advisory board after its first meeting in November.
"I thought the whole production was dreadful," he said.
"The first provisional script I got was so Anglo-centric I couldn't believe it," Prof Macinnes said. "It was written on the basis as if Scotland was a divided country until the Union (with England] came along and civilised it. I felt it was just nonsense."

I contributed a comment on a previous reference by the Scotsman to this BBC Scottish historical series stating that the presenter would need to be someone who would be willing to go along with the underlying message of the series which of course will be pro unionist propaganda it just depended on how obvious or subtle the message would be presented
It's gratifying to see at least one learned professor in this field finds the BBC propaganda wing's attitude intolerable and resigned.
Of course this is only one programme series, I fully expect that if the SNP ratings go higher the BBC and the rest of the unionist media will go into overdrive and churn out a lot more of this.
169

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 11/03/2008 11:46:49
178 AJ Fife

What else is one to expect from silly women with no brains - a majority of that gender, perhaps?

Gothic Rose and Doreen and their female friends are excluded, of course. I value my "family jewels".
170

DR,

Bristol, England 11/03/2008 11:51:00
Prof. Macinnes takes issue with his colleagues over his claim that the BBC's programme '...was written on the basis as if Scotland was a divided country'.
Nothing very much seems to have changed then! Perhaps the professor should table a vote of thanks to the English for helping keep the Scots tearing each other's throats out over the past several centuries.
171

DR,

Bristol, England 11/03/2008 11:54:40
Sorry! My comment should have read 'vote of thanks to the English for helping STOP the Scots tearing each other's throats out...'
172

Geoff,

sa 11/03/2008 11:55:15
178 Aj Fife-couldnt agree with you more!176 is a good example of the gibberish to which you are referring. I love the Scotsmans forums but must say on a brief visit to the Herald tother day their forums seemed not to have such posts-dare I say were more cerebral? But on the other hand, free speech i suppose...
173

Kenny A,

11/03/2008 11:55:59
175

Way to go, shot that turkey down.
174

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 11:58:54
TWC#182,

Doreen takes no prisoners for sure. The treat of having your cream crackers fed through a bacon slicer keeps me inline!
175

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 12:02:48
Geoff SA,

The Herald has always been a bit more erudite than the Scotsman, especially since the days of Andrew Neil. Who'd have thought it - Weegies being brainier than Edinbuggers?? ;D
176

European Scot,

11/03/2008 12:19:08
155 Fairfax

" He would no doubt ask why Scots need a state-broadcaster to do this, and so do I. Given the trivial cost and high quality of digital cameras, and given the existence of Scottish historians who might be interested in the project, why does this need the BBC at all? Let the SNP coordinate a Scottish academics (and perhaps independent film-makers) to produce an alternative DVD."

So producing something on a DVD is going to to compete with the impact of a State broadcaster, which will doubtless continue to push its very British agenda, directly into the homes of the Scottish public, via this Scottish history documentary.
You are not exactly making a fair competition, DVD versus Broadcast TV.
Certainly not in terms of overall impact .
Why is broadcasting in Scotland a 'reserved' matter ?
That is is what is far more important. If you look at some of the smallest countries in Europe, even regions having some autonomy within the larger countries, they each have their own radio and television stations.
Would you deny Scotland its right to broadcast ? To produce its own history documentary, or any other form of programming.
Would you prefer that the British state broadcaster continues to maintain its control, thanks to that little 'reserved' matter ?
There is another history we mustn't forget, the one about propaganda.
177

himthatknows,

Woodstock 11/03/2008 12:24:33
Revisionist historians are a sad lot, not that they don't have a point... they just seem so bitter. Traditional history does not tell the whole story of a people/nation concentrating on the "great" men or women (but let's be honest, mostly men). It's a shame the two camps never seem to be able to reach common ground. Oh wel... It's all George Bush's fault.
178

Calum Crubag,

11/03/2008 12:25:09
People, especially the English seem to forget that we had successful trading links with all major European nations befoe the union. After the union, we (with England) were at war with them.

We should also look more to our shared roots with Ireland and our links with the Norse. Before the advent of roads, our islands were of great importance, especially Iona.

I really am sick of the anti-Scotland (we don't really exists) attitude of the BBC in London and the other stations. There was virtually no news coverage of Scotland's rugby win against England, the Scottish Cup ties didn't even get mention, one of BBC London's main sport commentators didn't even know whether Hampden was in Glasgow or Edinburgh. WE regularly get irrelevant 'news' forced on us - i.e. about education and legal matters. Even as a unionist you have to accept that under the Act of Union, Scotland's education, legal system, banks and churches remained independent.

As to parochial... you just have to look at the English attitude towards the Germans, French and Argentinians. If the French can watch German telly and have cordial relations with them, why are the English still fighting the two world wars (as if it was only England that fought!!)?
179

E. Smith,

Central Texas 11/03/2008 12:30:51
From the American point of view, Scotland was not a divided nation at the time James VI ascended the throne of England, but rather the Scottish kings didn't exert quite the control over the Scottish Parliament that the Tudor monarchs did over Westminister. But then again, the Scottish Parliament, in turn, didn't have the power that the English Parliament did. If any one institution unified Lowland Scotland, it was the very democratic Kirk (and the Covenanteers).

The only way the proposed television series could perhaps justify the phrase "divided nation" is to comment upon the cultural divide between Lowland and Highland Scotland (if one believes the premises set forth by Michael Fry).

Any history should also comment on the high percentage of literacy achieved in Lowland Scotland during the Reformation as compared to both the percentage of literacy in both England and the European Continent--not to mention the numerous highly-skilled Scots who lived abroad starting during the Renaissance and Reformation.
180

Irked,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 12:32:30
Does no one else find it ironic that "Scotland's best known historian" is actually an Irishman?

181

Auld Twa,

11/03/2008 12:35:36
#129 Fairfax, 11/03/2008 10:08:23.
OK let's come a bit nearer today, or at least only thirty years back.
The UK Government launched a campaign of lies in order to hide from us the value, quantity and production lifetime of North Sea oil.
Why should anybody in Scotland want to swear an oath of allegiance to a government who has so recently been shown to betray us for political advantage ?
182

westview,

North of the equator. 11/03/2008 12:45:51
Hope the BBC history lesson points out that Scotland has hardly ever attacked or been at war with any other nation other than England. After we wiped out the viking armada at Largs and had a forrie into Ireland, we have been a peace loving people. Contrast that with the blood thirsty English nation. Wars with the Dutch,the French, the Spanish, the Irish, the Welsh, the North Americans etc etc. Scots are contributers to the progress of the human race , not destroyers like our neighbours. High light that in our history.
183

Conway,

11/03/2008 12:48:05
Its not just history that is insular,even today anything that happens in Scotland is always compared with our larger English neighbour,
Are we or are we not a member of the EU why not compare Scotland with our European partners in History as well as present day.
184

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 13:02:17
182...Good afternoon Timothy Charles..I did not realise that 'Kimba' is female....however given that the majority of the trolls on the forum are...I am pretty sure....male....lets not go there..at least not for today....


188...It would seem..banjo boay...that the Hootsman is descending into realms of the gutter press...I am all for 'human interest' articles..but when we have stories re lads mags covering up and photos of a pneumatic Jordan to illustrate this...have I cruised over to the 'Sun' by mistake?

We are even spared that in the Glasgow Evening Times fir fecksake!.....

Anyway...whit yoo daen tryin tae make me oot tae be some kind o' 'Peggy Mount'....I'l have you know I was once described as 'a hint of honeysuckle on a summer breeze!'....description obtained under duress...granted...


185

kimba,

11/03/2008 13:10:33
You sad sad bast-rds, you are to be pitied more than anything else; you bully,belittle,and use every dirty underhanded trick in the book to get your own way,England has and always will be bigger,stronger,and more vibrant,London alone has a greater GDP than the whole of scotland and still you prattle on about "scottish independence", as if it were some kind of ambrosia that you must have at all costs,well, unfortunatly none of the party leaders at westminster have any intention of granting you that wish,infact both cameron and brown want to create a "BRITISH DAY" TO CELEBRATE OUR BRITISHNESS,as for Salmond he is and always will be a opportunist, he thrives on peoples doubts and dissatisfaction,he knows he can never fulfill his promise to the scottish people to bring about independence, but still he carries on with his disputes with westminster in the vain hope that westminster will get fed up with his constant rants and give in to his demands; only the most nieve of scots believe that salmond can or will achieve anything other than his own gratification. The UK will be with us for some time yet,the only thing scots have to fear is if and when the people of England wake up to the bias scottish raj at westminster.
186

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 13:15:38
#198,

You sound a tad angry, was it something we said?

I certainly hope so! :D
187

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 13:16:49
Kimba,

Where did you copy post 198 from?
188

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 13:24:58
Doreen,

A faint whiff of honeysuckle eh?

You shouldnae spray the lavvy cleaner behind yer ears like that, you could get a nasty rash!
189

kimba,

11/03/2008 13:31:32
AJ, unlike you I can and do use my brain, pity all you can do is bully!
190

dimba,

11/03/2008 13:32:04
yeah, you scottish "numpties" lol - its like kimba says, London, with double the population and as the worlds financial centre...has..get this, got a bigger gdp than you scots do! LOL, that makes you extra pathetic!!!
191

dimba,

11/03/2008 13:36:14
and IN FACT Brown is scottish (pathetic really) and Cameron is decended from Scots (and before that, apes), so proving that you scots never did anythuing and nothing.

hey, sis...i'm off to norton rd social drop in centre soon - see you there, yeah?
192

bluepict,

union falls 11/03/2008 13:38:11
For all the English folk who are whinging about having to fork out for hospitals in Scotland, Scottish PM's and so on, just remember one thing, The Scottish people did not want a Union with England in the first place, it was foisted upon them and three hundred years later many Scots still don't want it. And as it was, the English used bribery to get the acquired votes.

So England got their wish, the Union came into being but you have to pay, after all you can't have your cake and eat it too!

193

Gothic Rose,

11/03/2008 13:38:56
182#TimW.
Most astute of you.I see you know which side your breads buttered.

As for Dimba and Kimba,a couple of bookends the pair of them,so they are!!!
194

dimba,

11/03/2008 13:39:17
guess what else? even NEW YORK has a bigger GDP than Scotland!!! Pathetic!
195

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 13:41:16
European Scot (189): "So producing something on a DVD is going to to compete with the impact of a State broadcaster"

Why not? In fact, there's no need for a DVD release at all: it could be made available via YouTube and BitTorrent.
196

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 13:44:17
Auld Twa (194): "Why should anybody in Scotland want to swear an oath of allegiance to a government who has so recently been shown to betray us for political advantage?"

I don't know. Then again, I'm an English nationalist who wants Scotland to secede from the Union: you should be asking your fellow citizens why so few support independence.
197

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 13:46:20
Gothic Rose,

It's frightening combination and since dimba has come on the scene, kimba doesn't swear as much!
198

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 13:48:33
201....Aye...talking o' rashes..how is the affliction?...last time we crossed paths you were banging on aboot red light districts were you not?..this could well lead one to assume..but thats no nice...still...never caught onyhing aff a lavvie seat masell....like you claim ye did.....try the waens nappy rash cream..that might help ye...good course o' anti biotics aff the quack will hit the nail oan the heid as well...

Course...ye knew that wis comin eh?..soon as ye posted it ye thoat "Aw naw!"...

This Kimba person wants tae move tae America eh...fit right in there....bigger...better etc etc etbliddycetera....
199

Publius,

London 11/03/2008 13:49:08
#172 Ken S
The contribution to the gene pool of Scots from Ireland, Angles from Germany or Vikings from Scandinavia is pretty small. About 80 per cent of the gene pool of people in the British Isles is accounted for by the people who settled here immediately after the last Ice Age.
200

dimba,

11/03/2008 13:49:15
and something else - the USA has a bigger GDP than Luxembourg, despite luxembourg being many, many times smaller. That is what you scots need to learn.
201

dimba,

11/03/2008 13:52:40
and you need to know that, like kimba says, no matter how big sea level rises are, england will always be bigger than scotland...you need to ACCEPT IT!
202

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 13:55:29
Publius (212): "About 80 per cent of the gene pool of people in the British Isles is accounted for by the people who settled here immediately after the last Ice Age."

I have no fundamental disagreement with this figure, but it's worth adding that the percentage varies between 70-75% in England, to 90% in parts of Wales and highland Scotland -- at least if I recall Oppenheimer's study correctly.
203

George Mackay,

Dundee 11/03/2008 13:57:45
#212
My nephew Malcolm is into gene pools. He has red hair and thinks he's a Pict. He wants to revive the Pictish race and he's become a sp.rm donor to help spread his Pictish genes.
He wants to put a sign in Pictish on the A9 to direct tourists to his craft workshop but the council won't let him.
204

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 14:01:41
Doreen#211,

That wiz the cyber equivalent o' the bacon slicer!! :-O
205

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 14:03:10
Dimba#214,

You and yer sis are the scourge o' the boards!
206

dimba,

11/03/2008 14:04:10
leave my sis out of this - GOT IT?
207

dimba,

11/03/2008 14:04:47
i'm off to norton road now, but we plan to be back!
208

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 14:05:30
217...AJ...for goodness sake man!....stick to the topic!...

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh....
209

kimba,

11/03/2008 14:06:08
203,well here comes the best you scots can offer,you are running scared and so you have to belittle,what a great example to set to your chilren,and you wonder why you are the most violent country in Europe. Scottish history can be placed in one category,and that is "violent" you use your fists before you use your brain{those who have a brain that is} the rest of you who are not so brave use bullying and belittleing to get your kicks; the people of the UK do not need such unstable and head strong tw-ts, so although I know it will not happen for a long time I pray that some how scotland can go their seperate way, we will all be better off without your costant whinging.
210

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA....captured from Mexico 1845 11/03/2008 14:06:09
182
TimW1234,
Ottawa, Canada
-----------------------U wrote
"What else is one to expect from silly women with no brains - a majority of that gender, perhaps?"

Dude a woman gave you birth by pushing U out of her water bag. Then fed U all at no cost to U.

Very ungrateful male Homo Sapien U are.

Happy Canada day Dude

GC


211

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 14:08:05
Westview (195): "Hope the BBC history lesson points out that Scotland has hardly ever attacked or been at war with any other nation other than England."

This deserves some debunking! The Scots themselves, as opposed to the nation state, have been involved in several major wars. In particular, they formed a large part of the protestant armies of the Thirty Years War (1618--1648) -- Leslie himself served with Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. After all, James VI/I's daughter, the Winter Queen, was involved with the War from its beginning, when her husband accepted the throne of Bohemia. You can learn more from Edinburgh historian Trevor Royle's "Civil War".

212

,

11/03/2008 14:09:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
213

kimba,

11/03/2008 14:13:18
226. yeah ,when i've reported you for the tw-t you are.Go forth and multiply you sicko.
214

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 14:13:21
I see that the asylum is out - and complete with casual racism...how very boring. Kimba/Dimba/whatever - please take your deplorable views elsewhere.
215

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 14:16:54
222....For goodness sake Kimba...you are doing most of the whingeing here....cant you see that?..

Every country has its stereotype...the tightfisted Scots...the stupid Irish..etc..and of course..the ignorant little Englander with their gargantuan forehead, knuckles that trail on the ground and bulldog that cowers in their shadow....yet another stereotype...

You do know that England has a reputation for breeding violent thugs of course?.....but then again so does Scotland...cannot say the same for Ireland or Wales.....maybe Guernsay....
216

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/03/2008 14:20:56
#19 So if Scotland gained independence you would stop coming onto this website? Is that what you are saying? Anyway, why do you come on here now if you find us so tedious?
217

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 14:20:59
229 Doreen, hi! Yup, I think I recognise the gargantuan forehead and knuckles dragging along the ground description in at least one "contributor" to this forum!! Ho hum...mr moderator will be along soon, hopefully.
218

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/03/2008 14:23:20
#222 Kimba - I suggest you do a little research into the long list of eminent Scots. your "violence" stereotyping may be entertaining for you but it displays your lack of understanding of the subject.
219

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/03/2008 14:27:04
#198 kimba - your self-confidence must be really low by now. Your self-esteem is obviously non-existent.
220

kimba,

11/03/2008 14:31:19
229. Doreen. Oh how quaint,you start by belittleing,then go on to accuse England of breeding "violent thugs" then back track and admit that scotland has just as many "violent thugs"; as for sgurr, he/she plays the same old record, sgurr, you are a scottish tw-t, please do me a favour and top yourself!
221

Florence,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 14:37:34
22 ENCEPHALON: SORRY???? You have to consider only the coverage of last week's Calcutta Cup match. Nuff said.
222

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 14:41:33
kimba, you are a joke...and a poor one at that. Look at how people mock you. No one else on these forums gets the same stick & there is a reason why. Its because no-one else comes out with the infantile garbage that you do. In fact, I regularly chat to my young nephews who already have a more sophisticated understanding of Scottish and UK politics than you do. Please quit the anti-scottish angle and find something positive to do with your time. I and most other people that regularly contribute don't even bother trying to debate with you because you simply boil down to ugly, jealous, hate.
223

Florence,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 14:41:55

22 ENCEPHALON: Apologies. My post at 235 should have been for 18.
224

kimba,

11/03/2008 14:46:31
233. My self confidence has never been higher, you see, I live in the most successful country ever, think you need a lesson in Englishness, unlike you scots we in England are passive,it takes a lot to get us rild up but that is in your favour,you see 50 million english on your case can never be good,so here's a tip; get the english mp's so fcuked off with scotland that they demand a English parliament and you are half way there to scottish independence.
225

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/03/2008 14:48:19
We will get a really good idea of how important this really is to the BBC and what of how much control it's Scottish office has by what time on night it goes out on, not to mention, what day and how long each epesode will last and not forgetting what BBc chanell will it go out on.

How about, hour long episodes that go out at peak viewing time, mid-week on BBC one?

Anybody?

No?

Oh dear.
226

Gothic Rose,

11/03/2008 14:54:27
WHEeeeeeeee. Break and return to your corners!
227

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/03/2008 14:56:09
May I on behalf of Scot/nats every where thank the Scotsman for allowing the posts by the person called Kimba not only to be seen by the public at large but in allowing them to remain to be seen.

To kimba and the Scotsman, please keep up the good work1
228

kimba,

11/03/2008 14:57:22
236. That is because no one takes the pish out of you nats like I do,you say you want scottish independence but salmond is a joke, the more he gets under the skin of westminster the more westminster will resist him,you need some one who can play the game,only by sucking up,but at the same time out manouvering the scottish raj will scotland and england ever be free; that is not about to happen any time soon so get over it.
229

Enigma,

11/03/2008 15:03:08
Don`t understand why you guys get so flustered, if it really is an `English` history of Scotland it will exonorate you of blame for anything. As far as the pro British BBC are concerned anything connected with England is negative. In any case if there is one thing we do well it`s self loathing.
230

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 15:05:22
234....Merely trying to point out the pointlessness of your statement, as both countries are known for this problem..particularly Glasgow..however surely we, as individuals can rise above it..and recognise that it is an issue for both England and Scotland?...and in fact many cities in both countries?...

English... .passive?....please provide us with some evidence for this outlandish claim....

You are obviously very angry and should take a break...people will just continue to take the p*ss because you are wound up...This has now turned into an English/Scottish thing for you and it really is a waste of energy...
231

kimba,

11/03/2008 15:06:09
241. Oh what a sad individual you are, you seem to think that both the scotsmans comments and mine will in some way bolster your campaign, how wrong can one person be, your ignorance of the scottish people beggers belief, if that is your veiw of your fellow scots you are in serious trouble.
232

Black & White Triumph,

Greenhill Road.....soon 11/03/2008 15:06:50
I'm finished with history, it not what its cracked up to be,
233

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/03/2008 15:11:46
Congratulations, you have just replaced Jackie Mason as my fave comedian.

Do you tour with your act, if so could you please supply ticket information as I wouldn't want to miss you.

Anywhere within a fifty mile radius of central Scotland will do, might even take my English wife.
234

,

11/03/2008 15:11:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
235

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 15:12:30
Kimba - you're a moron.
236

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 11/03/2008 15:13:44
Kimba. just in case it hasn't sunk in yet, yes I did mean you!
237

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 15:14:48
Well, Kimbatime is going well today....I like the "knuckle dragger" comment from Sgurr the best......
238

dimba,

11/03/2008 15:15:40
kimba is not a moron - shes a very cleveh person and your should all sit and listen to her wisdom. She could buy and sell you idiots every day of the week at less than half price.
239

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 15:16:02
'50m English on our case' is something to be worried about?? HA HA HA HA HA HA - you've tried over the centuries and you still can't take a little country with nothing like the reoirces you have. So Gordon Brown is Scottish? I thought he was supposed to be British and representing Britain. I guess I forgot that the English only think of Britain as England and that they should rule the rest. Bollards to that.
240

kimba,

11/03/2008 15:18:01
244,Doreen. Wonder why I should be angry, let me see, how about my dad who is the wrong side of 50 working 60 hours a week so he can support the scots,he like many others in england have to pay for their prescriptions,he like many other english folk have to pay for me and my sister uni education, and my mums mum gets no free elderly care, so you see I wonder why we in England always get the shi--y end of the stick.
241

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 15:18:01
half price what?? DIMba is an apt name for you. Very cleveh.......
242

,

11/03/2008 15:18:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
243

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 15:21:51
kimba - grow up. Oil from Scotland saved the UK when it was busted (check IMF reports in the early 70s). And now you need to tax whisky even more to subsidise the BNP supporting English chavs who never work & never will. Time for Ingerlund to f*** off.
244

Sgurr,

laughing out loud! :D 11/03/2008 15:27:46
:D kimba, aren't you forgetting the free central heating installation for the elderly, the lack of waiting lists for the vast majority of operations (due to an additional £1500 per head being spent on healthcare), the fact that you can get a dentist, the lack of pollution, the freeze in council tax...I could go on, but I wouldn't want to upset you further. :D
245

Media 1,

cape town 11/03/2008 15:28:34
The bottom line, is that Scotland without the support of the union in the last 300 years would see the country some 100 years behind where it is now.
Even the most hardened Scottish historians will tell you that Scotland in the union, was always going to work out better than Scotland on her own.
Scottish history is no different to other nations! There was war, there was a period enlightenment and so on.
Today Scotland is a wealthy nation with an important seat the union table, what else could be better?
246

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 15:29:44
PS, say thanks to your Dad for me...oh, but tell him he has to do an additional 10 hours per week from now on, because we're all getting 40" flatscreen TVs from the SNP!
247

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/03/2008 15:30:09
Kimba, if anyone ever advises you to stop and think be fore you post, don't listen to them.

Here's some advice though, never mention what uni you go/went to or they will get their lawyers onto you.

Exasperated, don't get too angry, just enjoy the laughs, i mean Kimba isin't really expecting anybody to take her for real now is she? I mean Uni educated, yeah right.

248

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 15:30:14
~259 - appropriately for someone refrencing 'the bottom line' yer talkin'through yer erse!!
249

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 15:33:03
#259,

Now now Media 1, the African sun is sending you roond the bend - 100 years?????

You'd better start reading some modern Scottish history books too.....
250

HEN BROON 5,

HAPPY SNP ALBA BLEEDING THE ENGLISH WHITE ;o) 11/03/2008 15:33:25
#254 DIMBA You still here, you have been on here all day. So is your dad having to support you whilst you sit on your lazy fat butt being abusive on a Scottish forum all day, you are a real dim wit.

Could you not drag your sad arrs out and do some work to help pay some bills or are you to ugly to flip burgers you would probably eat more than you flipped any way eeuch what a horrible thought.

Incidentally are your parents siblings?

Is that big poofie brother of yours still wearing your knickers?

Does he wear a gas mask?

Shouldn't you have a license for being that stupid?

I heard when you were a child your Mother wanted to hire someone to take care of you, but the Mafia wanted too much.

Why don't you just open your mind and shut your mouth, both are empty anyway.

I hear you were born on April 2; a day too late!

You must be an experiment in Artificial Stupidity.

Everybody has a photographic memory. You simply don't have the film.

You're about as good lookin as a cross between the Elephant Man and a Pitbull Terrier..

This is an excellent time for you to become a missing person.

You've got more chins than a Chinese phone book!

I've come across rotting bodies that are less offensive than you are.

You're a habit I'd like to kick -- with both feet.

So now we know why some mammals eat their children...

ALBA GU BRATH
251

kimba,

11/03/2008 15:33:33
sgurr. Don't push your luck, you are a eejit at the best of times, but your arrogance is just asking for trouble!
252

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 15:33:36
Ochone - yup, but then again, Universities down there are not very good. And A-levels have slid in quality so far that they are having to scrap the entire system! Mere to be pitied than scorned! :D
253

Enigma,

11/03/2008 15:34:28
253

Gordon Brown British? Only when in England, I seem to recall he was an early supporter of the Scottish Constitutional Convention and promised always to put Scotland first. Now he is PM of `Britain` of course he keeps that quiet. Oddly enough he has a great aversion to the idea of a seperate English Parliament. It`s hardly suprising `the English can only think of Britain as England`, that`s a default setting when the notion of anything specific to England is verboten.

As for England `ruling the rest` either you have a fine sense of irony or have totally missed the point.
254

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/03/2008 15:34:52
Kimba, sorry to say, although the laughs have been great, i am going to have to go now, but don't forget the ticket info, will you, i predict that if you went on tour it would be a sell out.
255

Shuggie,

Canada 11/03/2008 15:36:52
Perhaps French and Scottish TV could collaborate on a history of England? Provisional title "Perfidious Albion?"
256

HEN BROON 5,

HAPPY ALBA BLEEDING THE ENGLISH WHITE 11/03/2008 15:40:53
236 Sgurr,11/03/2008 14:41:33 Your dead right there Sgurr. Only AM2 and The Village Idiot take as much ritual humiliation as this smelly troll but they have enough brain cells to morph into a different moniker and stay submerged in the pond, this one appears to be stuck in the shallow end and cannot work out where the deep end is ;o)

ALBA GU BRATH
257

Media 1,

cape town 11/03/2008 15:41:07
Cmon AJ

You know as well as I do, Scotland without the union would be a desperate state of affairs.
258

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 15:44:51
Cmon Media 1

You know as well as I do, Scotland would be a top 10 nation in the world without Westmonster bleeding the Scottish public dry.
259

kimba,

11/03/2008 15:47:27
HEN BROON, Maybe you should difine the difference between me and the moronic troll dimba, and one can only hope you fine the time to top yourself.
260

Media 1,

cape town 11/03/2008 15:48:46
AJ Fife..

My heart is not unlike yours, I WANT to believe that as well, but the reality is that we are better off within the union, we always have been.
I dont see Scotland through your eyes. Through your eyes, Scotland is a state of England, eating the crumbs for her table. In my eyes, Scotland is a powerful player within the union set up, and our position therein affords us powers so great we would be crazy to close the door on them...
Scotland is a big player in the partnership, not a wee nodding dog as you like to think...
261

kimba,

11/03/2008 15:52:05
AJ, LOL, you are not only arrogant,but a stupid troll to boot, oh what a numb skull you are!
262

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 15:52:41
Media 1,

Scotland is merely a convenient reservoir of talent, tax and blood for Westmonster to manipulate and use as it sees fit!

I've always seen Scotland as a nation, but a put upon one!
263

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 15:53:52
LOL so, so funny. kimba and dimba...she cant even troll properly!
264

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 15:54:22
kimba#275,

Isn't it time for your giant nappy to be changed?
265

,

11/03/2008 15:55:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
266

Media 1,

cape town 11/03/2008 15:55:16
AJ

Dont be so naive!
You need to love Scotland more than you despise England, maybe then you will take of the blinkers and open your mind to the facts.
267

sweet76,

Coventry 11/03/2008 15:57:35
So to stop all the arguing. As long as this series states that the English are scum and that the William Wallace depicted by the racist drunk was 100% true to life, then the majority of commentators on this forum will be happy.
268

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 15:58:33
Does anyone remember that total dribbling buffon Lia? Man, she was so stupid she had her own team of scientists tring to work out if she was the missing link! But kimba...different league!
269

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:00:49
in response to Tweedmouth from Coldstream who said

"#17 MacAlba

Thanks for showing the world what Scottish Nationalists are really all about: simple, blatant, racism. You REALLY DO hate English people and you are a bigoted, ignorant, foaming at the mouth idiot to boot.

If you said any of these things about black people, or Muslims, I expect you would be banned from this forum in a second. But uts OK to hate English people in Scotland isn't it?"

Thanks Tweedmouth because this is the whole point I was trying to make, ironic it comes from a Scotsman but one who can see right through the rubbish so many people like MacAlba spout
270

AJ Fife,

11/03/2008 16:01:29
Media 1,

I don't despise England, indeed I have many English friends, but I do despise Westminster! That's a whole different thing is it not?

271

Booster,

11/03/2008 16:02:03
#22

You are a fine one to talk about Irony.

Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as others see us!
272

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 16:02:15
...and then there was Maxi! I heard she was killed accidently by a japanese whaling boat whilst drifting on a lilo last summer. Very sad.
273

Media 1,

cape town 11/03/2008 16:04:37
AJ Fife

You have more reason to despise Holyrood than you do Westminster,after all, is it not true that Holyrood has stolen more money from the local tax payer than westminster ever did in the last 6 or 7 years?

Westminster is a rock for Scotland, and we should be thankful.

Take off the blinkers man!
274

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:04:51
oder,Scotland 11/03/2008 10:47:31
135 Lock,11/03/2008 10:18:06

sorry! lock didn't mean to confuse you! most if not all members of the now defunct British Empire have attained Independence! it would be better for Scots to make all decisions concern Scotland taken in Scotland internal and external rather than having it approved by Westminster first! just like everyone else!

YES AND IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR US TO MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS WITHOUT HAVING TO PASS THEM THROUGH BLAIR, BROWN, DARLING, MCCONNELL, REID ETC ETC ETC

WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO GOVERN OURSELVES TO
275

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:07:24
grannie,Glasgow 11/03/2008 11:16:52
England Ireland Scotland Wales all tied up like the monkeys tails. I remember this was taught to us as children. Most families in Scotland if tracing their family would find they have ancesters from at least two of these countries. Govan in the 1840's would appear to have been almost the New Town of that era as English, Irish and workers from the Scottish Islands and Highlands all moved to that area for work in shipbuilding etc. There must be very few families who do not have family ties in England. However I am still Proud to be Scottish

FAIR ENOUGH, BUT IF WE HAVE TO RESPECT YOU BEING SCOTTISH, WE ARE DUE THE SAME RESPECT FOR OUR NATION, THE FACT THAT THE ONLY REASON SO MANY OF YOU HATE US IS BECAUSE OF OUR NATIONALITY IS NOT VERY 21ST CENTURY
276

Enigma,

11/03/2008 16:07:50
284

Very true, it`s a place in which for many years non English politicians have had access to immense power and influence. Sadly some of your less astute compatriots equate Westminster with England.
277

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:10:45
A Voice From Scotland,11/03/2008 11:28:28
25
CROSSED GEORGE,
Freedom for England 11/03/2008 02:36:10
21

Thank you for leaving and staying away. Although your moniker and your comments have more than a whiff of the usual Scotsman tactic of using neds on Buckfast to seed abuse and insults with a view to provoking hostility on this forum.
The unionist gang hut is truly a desperate place to be these days with paranoia rife, and rabid foam flecked neds spraying abuse around as they see the SNP disappearing over the horizon leading us to independence.
The EBC is the last chance salon for the fascist state of the UK, who need Scotland's wealth to pay for their imperialistic foreign policy. No wonder Alex Salmond is so popular and successful as Prime Minister of the Scottish Government.
The EBC are as irrelevant and insignificant now as Nieu Liebour and Unionism is in Scotland. The EBC are a complete joke who are controlled by Liebour since they bottled out after the Iraq dossier scandal.
The new Broadcasting House for the EBC on Pacific Quay, Glasgow is nothing more than a monumental symbol of Unionist fascism, filled with quislings all e-mailing London. For what they produce there a Portakabin would have been sufficient

AMAZING HOW YOU LIKE TO DISH IT OUT BUT THE MOMENT YOU GET SOME BACK, EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG. FUNNY HOW I WAS JUST REPLYING TO THE USUAL SCOTTISH TAUNTS. IS THIS THE SCOTTISH WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE ENGLISH
278

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:13:13
279,Hen broon. What a nasty little scots person,with any luck you may play chicken on the M8.
279

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 16:13:30
291 - the whiff of fish is strong with you. Move along.
280

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:13:58
A Voice From Scotland,11/03/2008 11:35:17
167
kimba,
11/03/2008 11:19:57


Switch of your caps lock you dreadful smelly troll. Still stinging from your humping at Murayfield are we, your sad sad bunch of wimps could not scrum their way out of a wet paper bag Scotland's womens team would thrash them oh I forgot they deliberately lost to teach the coach a lesson what a horrible example you are of English nation hood.
I think another Lobotomy is looming for you, see if you can get some liposuction also and a steam clean as you are impersonating a Fleetwood trawler right now.

YOU LIKE HYPROCRASY AS WELL, 2 MINUTES AGO YOU DON'T LIKE ALL THIS INTER COUNTRY BICKERING, THEN YOU LIKE TO STICK YOUR OWN ORE IN AS WELL WHEN YOU CAN HAVE A GO AT ENGLAND, HOW TYPICALLY SCOTTISH!!!!
281

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 11/03/2008 16:14:48
A Voice From Scotland,11/03/2008 11:35:17
167
kimba,
11/03/2008 11:19:57


Switch of your caps lock you dreadful smelly troll. Still stinging from your humping at Murayfield are we, your sad sad bunch of wimps could not scrum their way out of a wet paper bag Scotland's womens team would thrash them oh I forgot they deliberately lost to teach the coach a lesson what a horrible example you are of English nation hood.
I think another Lobotomy is looming for you, see if you can get some liposuction also and a steam clean as you are impersonating a Fleetwood trawler right now.

YOU LIKE HYPROCRASY AS WELL, 2 MINUTES AGO YOU DON'T LIKE ALL THIS INTER COUNTRY BICKERING, THEN YOU LIKE TO STICK YOUR OWN ORE IN AS WELL WHEN YOU CAN HAVE A GO AT ENGLAND, HOW TYPICALLY SCOTTISH!!!!
282

Over the Top,

11/03/2008 16:18:51
216
It now seems that the Pictish language may indeed be a dialect of Gaelic, so it is good to see that your nephew who has an Angliscised Gaelic name would wish to do so.
283

CROSSED GEORGE,

england 11/03/2008 16:18:59
Exasperated,Guildford 11/03/2008 15:16:02
'50m English on our case' is something to be worried about?? HA HA HA HA HA HA - you've tried over the centuries and you still can't take a little country with nothing like the reoirces you have. So Gordon Brown is Scottish? I thought he was supposed to be British and representing Britain. I guess I forgot that the English only think of Britain as England and that they should rule the rest. Bollards to that.

SO ENGLAND IS SO CR?P IS IT, WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN GUILDFORD, JUST LIKE THIS ARCHIE 23 IN LONDON, BOTH JUMPED ON THE ENGLISH GRAVY TRAIN, FUNNY HOW YOU ALL FORGET YOUR SCOTTISH WHEN YOU CAN COME SOUTH FOR MORE MONEY

I'M FED UP OF ALL YOUR RACIST AND BIGOTED WAYS, COMMENTS AND YET IM SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPY WHEN YOU COME TO MY COUNTRY BLEEDING IT DRY, MAYBE IF WE HAD THE SAME ATTITUDE TO YOU AS YOU DO TO US, YOU WOULD GO BACK HOME TO THINK AGAIN!!!
284

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:21:14
sweet76,Coventry 11/03/2008 15:57:35
So to stop all the arguing. As long as this series states that the English are scum and that the William Wallace depicted by the racist drunk was 100% true to life, then the majority of commentators on this forum will be happy

WE ARE SCUM, SUPPOSE YOU LIVE IN THE COVENTRY NEAR GLASGOW RATHER THAN THE ONE NEAR BIRMINGHAM, BET YOUR DOING BETTER BEING IN ENGLAND
285

Saul Tyre,

Germany 11/03/2008 16:21:57
England is a peninsula to the south of Scotland. No more and no less. That is an undisputed fact. Live with it.
286

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 16:22:25
297 - he is probably there because his company was unable to find a local that is as well educated and capable of doing that job. And it didn't read like he had forgot he is Scottish...quite the contrary, if anything.
287

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 11/03/2008 16:24:06
YOU HAVE ALL PROVED ME RIGHT, PRACTICALLY ALL OF YOU HATE ENGLAND, YOU TAKE OUR MONEY FOR GRANTED, AND MANY OF YOU EVEN HAVE THE CHEEK TO COME TO LIVE IN ENGLAND AND STILL HATE THE PLACE

SCOTLAND HAVE INDEPENDENCE? THE BETTER FOR ALL OF US AND THEN WE CAN ENJOY THE RICH PICKINGS YOU HAVE FOR THE LAST 300 YEARS


ENGLAND FOREVER
ENGLAND FOREVER
ENGLAND FOREVER
288

­,

11/03/2008 16:24:13
Cross-dresser George and all his ramblings

Yet another example of why siblings shouldn't have children.

289

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:24:28
Siol nan Gaidheal
A History of Britain

An antidote to unionist misinformation

It proves highly instructive to consider the instances historically in which the concept of "Britain" has been invoked in discerning exactly what that term means. Such discernment is desirable when confronted with the variety of ways in which the term is deployed today to advance programs and agendas inimicable to Scotland's interests. It becomes clear that the assertion that Britain comprises a "nation-state" is merely an English nationalist finesse, and that the U.K. is in essence an English nationalist project.

The English people first encountered the term "Britain" as an ambiguous designation, which could be taken to denote the entire island or in a more restricted sense the ruins of a former Roman province they sought to infiltrate and dominate. This ambiguity has been consistently and ruthlessly exploited by the English through the course of all ensuing history, providing a basis for spurious claims of suzerainty and governing roles in realms outwith the territorial extent of England. Hence one finds Athelstan's claim in the 10th century to be the "King of the English and governor of the surrounding peoples".

290

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:26:15
So, the fact of the matter is this; scots think they are hard done to ,but the fact of the matter is that EVERY man,woman.and child in England pays scotland 1500 pounds, whilst we in england do without.
291

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 11/03/2008 16:26:51
299, AND SCOTLAND IS A CESSPIT OF RACIAL AND RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY, SELF OBSESSIVENESS, MOANERS, THE LIST IS ENDLESS.

You live with that, because we have to, and fund it!!
292

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:27:02
The arrival of the Normans in England brought the introduction of new tactics to be employed by the English in their attempts to subdue the Scots; having failed militarily they attempted to dominate the church. Scotland was to be rendered subordinate to the bishop of Durham, who answered to the Archbishop of York, who answered to the Archbishop of Canterbury, who answered to the Pope styling himself as the "primas totius Britannie" - the primate of all Britain. Again that ambiguous term. Between 1100 and 1162 various Popes issued in total 8 demands that the Scottish church submit to the archbishop of York as their metropolitan as a result of English complaints to the papacy. All were strenuously ignored. Then the English attempted to prevent the consecration of Scottish bishops by the Pope, and failed - in 1164 the elect of Glasgow was consecrated despite English opposition and the bishops of Glasgow were named "special sons" ("speciales filios") of the Holy See. The papacy had finally taken the hint, as evidenced by further developments. In 1174 William the Lion, King of Scots, was captured by the English and under duress formally submitted in the Treaty of Falaise, conceding the position of the Scottish church to be subordinate to England. The Pope rejected this treaty at the request of Scottish bishops and declared the Glasgow church to be "our special daughter with no intermediary". The Treaty of Falaise was reversed by the Quitclaim of Canterbury of 1189, but the real culmination of the Scottish church's century long struggle to resist the English came with the papal bull of 1192, Kum Universi, which explicitly and finally stated that the Scottish church had the status conferred upon Glasgow of "special daughter with no intermediary".

293

Booster,

11/03/2008 16:27:11
Poor Hot Crossed Bunny needs to go sit down in a darkened room for a week or two.

It's remarkable is it not that he feels compelled to continually (for no good reason) spew his spleen all over these pages.

He really must feel insecure about something...
294

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:28:03
One of the most significant events of the year 1296 was the loss of the primary sources for Scots historiography prior to that date. This is perhaps more significant than the defeat at Dunbar and the subsequent humiliation of Balliol at Fortrose; the shape of Anglo-Scottish relations that are preserved in present animosities are perhaps as much the result of Edward III of England's disastrous foreign policies which perpetuated the earlier attempts at imposing English imperium. After Balliol's humiliation that year the rolls that were in effect Scotland's historical record were plundered, loaded onto four ships and sent south. Three of these ships were lost at sea and the contents of the fourth almost entirely lost during the reformation and the fire of London in 1666. This has rendered Scotland the single most problematic nation for mediavel historians. This looting was for Scottish historiography an act of vandalism of a magnitude similar to the burning of the great library of Alexandria. The effect for discerning a history of Britain, which is felt up to and including the present day, is the equivalent of letting the Nazis write the history of the second world war, since primary sources relating to early Scotland are mainly foreign and in particular English. Thus even this year historians have been able to vent their English prejudices in print and broadcast. The failure of the Anglo-Saxon state to absorb Scotland is said to be a "problem". Unsubstantiated speculation about the extent of Northumbrian imperium north of the Forth-Clyde line goes unchallenged not only because of the paucity of written evidence one way or the other but because of the tacit approval of the implicit English prejudice inherent in such remarks. It is 1316 years since the English were routed at Dunnichen. 687 years ago they were routed at Bannockburn. It falls to us once more to remind the English of history without the benefit of the historical record they have destroyed.

The very exis
295

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:28:47
kimba,11/03/2008 16:26:15
So, the fact of the matter is this; scots think they are hard done to ,but the fact of the matter is that EVERY man,woman.and child in England pays scotland 1500 pounds, whilst we in england do without.

A don't forget the £400 million we contributed to that joke at Holyrood
296

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 16:29:46


BBC Scotland has long been an irrelevancy.

Scotland needs its own cable channel where it can transmit its homemade programmes for domestic consumption or for international attention and sales, free of London bias, or restrictions, agendas or schedules, mores and sensibilities.

We also need it for free speech, to speak our minds without fear of reprimand, to place our own culture, traditions, talents and ambitions on the international wall, so to speak, for objective assessment and critique.

In the first instance, we, and no one else, must be able to choose the subject matter we wish to record and broadcast.



297

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:30:31
The very existence of Scotland has been interpreted by the English as a threat. England has always been a highly centralised state with a powerful central authority necessarily enforcing unity. The existence of Scotland historically encourages centrifugal forces within England. Some of the most brutal acts committed by England have been against her own people in the north of England when they have on more than one occasion sought a separate peace with Scotland. The English state does not tolerate her regions asserting themselves too much, but now that Scotland has its plastic parliament they all want one.

The status of Britain in English eyes found expression in the 12th century in the Galfridian articulation of English constitutional mythology, outlined by SnG in the article "The neo-Galfridian conceit" (it is deemed unecessary to re-iterate in detail the content of that article here). This was an explicit attempt to legitimise English attempts to enforce supremacy over the entire British Isles with reference to a mythological British past. This was the origin of the term "British Empire", which was seen as an extension of English imperium over the whole of the British Isles. The term was used in this sense by Henry VIII of England, by the Lord Protector Somerset as he strove to enforce it by continuing the "rough wooing", and England's maritime Atlantic empire was also legitimised in Galfridian terms. A sense of the term "British Empire" which began to move towards an Anglo-British identity more inclusive of the other component nations of the U.K. was attempted by Scots in the 18th and 19th centuries in response to the anomalous Union they had to contend with, of which more below. This however proved abortive. The English leopard does not change its spots.

298

Over the Top,

11/03/2008 16:31:37
It would certainly be a pity if this programme was wasted on certain issues as there are so few programmes commissioned on Scottish History for Television.
Scottish people really do need to know their own History.
299

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 16:32:21


Cross Eyed George, you are a laughing stock.

You are locked in the 19th century, either that or a toilet in Waterloo Station.





300

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:32:47
So it is seen that the exploitation of the essential ambiguity of the term Britain has provided England with some of the central planks of its constitutional mythology, one that facilitates acquisitiveness and imperial aggression through its emphasis on claims on other realms. This theme of English thought so easily transforms itself into a sense of a global civilising mission and the "white man's burden". The history of the British Empire can then be read in part as the story of the export of these ideas from England as far afield as contemporary technology permitted, ideas formed in embryo over a millennium previously. This can be contrasted with the Scottish Fergusian constitutional mythology which underpinned popular sovereignty and the idea of the monarch as primus inter pares, holding his rank by popular acclaim and having no imperial pretensions, ideas given expression in the ancient coronation ceremony of the King of Scots, in the Declaration of Arbroath in the 14th century and in the writings of George Buchanan in the 17th century, and which have resonated down the centuries to inspire the founding of "Tartan Day" in the U.S.A. Because of its constitutional mythology, its origin myths, its sense of itself, England finds it difficult to encounter other nations other than in the relationship of conquest. It prides itself in a "grown-up" history of evolving institutions of government and yet this can be read as a result of a profound and fundamental insecurity with every other aspect of its existence, primarily its relationship with the very land it inhabits, and this is because it has founded itself on an ambiguous idea of what that land is. This is the origin of the crises of "Englishness" that occasionally find mention on the inside pages of London broadsheets.

301

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 11/03/2008 16:33:40
funny how the Scottish are so hard done to, yet the English, Welsh and Northern Irish get on with things without continually moaning or knocking every one else,

I will leave you Scots now to carry on with your humdrum subsidised existance, complaining, criticising, moaning, envying, wallowing in your own self pity, as long as you vote for a labour government you will not get independence, but we in England live for the day that you do.........
302

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 16:34:46
Los Angeles,11/03/2008 16:32:21


Cross Eyed George, you are a laughing stock.

You are locked in the 19th century, either that or a toilet in Waterloo Station.

RATHER WATERLOO ANYDAY THAN WAVERLEY
303

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:35:27
Siol nan Gaidheal
A History of Britain

An antidote to unionist misinformation
The term "Britain" has been subject to arbitrary redefinition in order to advance an English nationalist agenda. The existence of a British state is not disputed, however a spurious equation of state with nation is employed to lend legitimacy to the fictitious notion of a British nation, one dominated by the particulars of English identity. The fallacious argument implicit in the assertion that a British nation exists is that, since modern states formed on the basis of the territorial distribution of pre-existent nations, conversely the existence of a state must be accompanied by a nation whose existence that state grants political expression to. This doctrine that since nations serve as nucleation sites for states, states must necessarily germinate nations has failed in a particularly disastrous way in Africa. The point is that this doctrine is used to achieve a political aim rather than fulfil a nascent potential, and in the case of Britain this aim is the absorption of her neighbours by England. A common shibboleth of those who subscribe to this doctrine is that we live in a world of nation-states, which is to say, the current political and constitutional settlement is final and unalterable since all nations necessarily already have their political expression through statehood. However this statement that we live in a world of nation-states is patently false; of the 132 states in existence as of 1971 it was found that only 12 (9.1%) could be justifiably described as nation-states, 25 (18.9%) contain a single nation comprising more than 90% of its population but also contain a significant minority, another 25 (18.9%) contain a single nation comprising between 75% and 89% of its population, in 31 (23.5%) cases the largest ethnic element comprised between 50% and 74% of the population and in 39 (29.5% - the largest single group) the largest nation constituted less than half the popula
304

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:36:43
309, what was blair thinking about to give scotland devaluation,did it not dawn on him that England would not take such bias lying down.
305

Enigma,

11/03/2008 16:36:51
310

Do you not have `freedom of speech then`? Do you get `reprimanded`?

I sympathise with you to a point, I would dearly love there to be a BBC England but exaggeration does a cause no good at all.
306

john z,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 16:38:17
Number 309.

This is a truly ignorant comment, based on mere twaddle preptuated by certain sections of english media. It is simply not true. Currently, oil is running at 108 USD per Barrel. I hardly think England subsidises Scotland, more correctly, it is the other way around - and by a large margin.

It is just unfortunate that the revenue from Scotland (industry, personal income tax, distilling and oil) all go direct to Westminster. The Scottish government then have to beg for some of it back. Hardly a good or equitable arrangement. I support independence, but do not hate English people. I do get angry when I read completely unfounded comments regarding fiscal matters in Scotland.

You would do well to educate yourself before posting.
307

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:38:28
317 CROSSED GEORGE,ENGLAND 11/03/2008 16:33:40

Another spineless coward beaten into submission, they don't like it up em!

ALBA GU BRATH
308

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 16:39:35


cross eyed george, you are exhibiting paranoid, obsessive behaior.

On a Herald forum recently Scots discussed their English heroes with enthusiasm, from Nelson to Thomas Hardy, From Farady to Newton, from Orwell to Ralph Vaughn Williams, contemporary achievers and role models too.

You were not one of them.

By the way, the only bloggers who refused to name the English man or woman they most admired were ....

... the Unionists. Funny olde worlde, eh?

Now, just because I give you this measured reply does not mean I will tolerate your crapology master race guff. This, as they say, is your last chance.



309

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:40:47
323, umm, would you like to try that with me,numb nuts!
310

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:41:07
320 kimba,11/03/2008 16:36:43


Oh rancid one you are priceless and severly devalued go to dictionary.com and learn some words or are you still getting rehabilitation after your lobotomy?
311

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 16:41:42

312 Enigma - But No Mystery

Not when the likes of you are ready and willing to trample over a post.

have you stopped to think of the arrogance of what you are doing?

Probably not.



312

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 16:41:42
Meths LOL! ;)

Crossed George, like many of the other English contributors, seems to have the self esteem of a fat, ugly teenage girl with bad B.O. (and ginger hair, obviously). diddums.

313

john z,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 16:41:54
Number 321, Engima

Let me assure you BBC England is alive and well. It's called the BBC. Affetionately known in Scotland as the EBC.
314

,

11/03/2008 16:42:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
315

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:43:11
No way slobber gob, the stench from your undercarriage would give a pig the dry boak.
316

Enigma,

11/03/2008 16:44:41
322

You must realise of course that your claim is a highly contentious one.
317

Newfie Jim,,

mobile nfld. 11/03/2008 16:45:02
All total Bullshit but very entertaining.
318

HEN BROON 5,

REPOST DUE TO HACKING TROLL 11/03/2008 16:45:12
325 kimba,11/03/2008 16:40:47
323, "umm, would you like to try that with me,numb nuts!"

No way slobber gob, the stench from your undercarriage would give a pig the dry boak.
319

Enigma,

11/03/2008 16:45:55
329

If you belive that you`ll believe anything!
320

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:46:34
333 Newfie Jim,,mobile nfld. 11/03/2008 16:45:02

Are you able to specify?
321

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:46:56
331. And the stench from your gob would send any dentist into affixiation.
322

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:47:32
331. And the stench from your gob would send any dentist into affixiation.
323

Lauwrie,

11/03/2008 16:47:35
Such a lot of rigid thought here and such delusions . I particularly liked :
"We the Scots were NOT evolved from the angles and saxons,thats the English you are thinking of.Put bluntly the english are just a bunch of illegal immigrants "

Whichever "patriotic" (I use the term loosely) fool wrote this has obviously never heard of the Scottii .

England needs a rest from Scotland , permanently . Time for England to get shot of any involvement with Scotland . We'd be far better off on our own .
324

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:48:05
333 Newfie Jim,,mobile nfld. 11/03/2008 16:45:02

I take it that moniker is meant to impress us and give the impression you are a windswept and interesting person, are you?
325

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:48:15
so good they said it twice!
326

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 16:49:53
#322
Glad to see someone on here can be calm and give a few home truths!

Stateless George- Do you really think that you are an asset for your country? I really feel rather sorry for the many decent folk in England.

Perhaps everyone should think how they are portraying their country by their posts.

327

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:49:57
339. Indeed we do,big time.
328

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA, TEACHING THE SASSENACHS ANOTHER LESSON. 11/03/2008 16:52:23
338 kimba,11/03/2008 16:47:32

Sorry but the tablets are not working smelly, you just do not have any thing to offer. You have the wit and repartee of a dead woodworm in a brick.

I would try and continue in a battle of wits with you but I am a principled person and will not battle with a defenceless idiot.
329

Enigma,

11/03/2008 16:52:59
339

I quite agree but shouldn`t your last paragraph read `Time for Scotland to get shot of any involvement with England`? It`s not us that force them to stay what ever some here may like to suggest.
330

HEN BROON 5,

HISTORY LESSON CONTINUES 11/03/2008 16:54:32
This device is now widespread. It is implicit in the terms "international community" and "international relations" where the entities involved are states rather than nations. The device is best exemplified in Africa, which is a model of the aftermath of imperialism. Here the deployment of the concept of the nation-state, meaning that the territorial extent of the juridical unit, the state, and the distribution of people identifying themselves as belonging to a specific national group, are co-terminous, is seen to have its most brutal contemporary effects. The division of the continent of Africa into states was conducted on an arbitrary basis by colonial powers. This in itself should not be a problem - unless the state requires itself to be the focus of loyalties reserved by individuals for their nation. The attempts by the "international community" as a cipher for the forces of globalisation, the World Bank and the I.M.F., to impose the state as the focus for loyalties properly reserved for the nation, have resulted in nothing short of a holocaust. Of course this is deemed a price worth paying by the lieutenants of globalisation in order to ensure that people feel no connection to each other than cash administered by a compliant state apparatus.

That English nationalist project, Britain/U.K. is another example. We cannot deny the existence of a British state of course, but this is revealed as an English nationalist project by the attempt to arbitrarily redefine it as a nation, a ploy which is often used worldwide to enforce the hegemony of a majority nation over other nations represented in the same state. Our contention is that not only is the U.K. deployed in this respect (witness a civil service that acts entirely in the English interest), but that it was conceived specifically for this purpose.

331

dimba,

11/03/2008 16:54:59
hi kimba - have these idiots been on at you again? I'm just back from 70 Norton Road (was chatting to my lawyer) and didn't see you at the support group but now i know why!
332

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:55:36
The possibility for making this misleading comparison between state and nation arose towards the end of the 17th century. The term nation derives from the latin term relating to birth and was used in the sense of common descent in the middle ages, and so mediavel students would record the area they hailed from as their "nationem" when matriculating. It is in this sense of common descent that Robert the Bruce refers to both Scotland and Ireland as "nostra nationem" - "our nation [singular !]." With the more widespread rise of theories of popular sovereignty throughout Europe towards the end of the 17th century the territorial juridical unit, the state, wherein sovereignty exerts itself, became associated with the people and so the possibility of the nation-state arose. Whereas formerly one might have said "l'etat, c'est le roi" one now said "l'etat, c'est le peuple". It must be noted that the necessity for the hyphenation "nation-state" itself indicates that the two entities are not identical. Unfortunately the period during which this device became possible coincides with Scotland's humiliating acquiescence with the anomalous Union, and so the synthesis of an Anglo-British identity to consolidate the new political entity ensued, to our great shame falling as a task to a disproportionate number of Scots, which process will be the subject of a future article. In order to participate in the commercial life of the British Empire, founded as it was upon the aggrandisement inherent in English constitutional mythology, Scotland's Fergusian egalitarianism had to be eclipsed and discarded and the self-appointed civilising mission of the English to be adopted, a project that Scottish whigs busied themselves with from the early 18th to the mid-19th centuries. The whig historians portrayed the Union of 1707 as the inevitable fulfillment of destiny, rather than as the ignominious sell-out it was; a nation being kicked while it was down, having endured famine, economic ruin as a
333

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:56:46
a nation being kicked while it was down, having endured famine, economic ruin as a result of the Darien fiasco, a haemorrhage of population to Europe as mercenaries and itinerant traders and a century of warfare that had resulted in the sort of depopulation as a result of war witnessed in 20th century Europe only by Poland, Russia and Yugoslavia. The Union was a forced error and we busy ourselves now with the rectification of that folly.

A person's identity is more complex and ineffable than a simple designation, a name or number. However, one attribute we all crave to recognise in the identity we wear is authenticity. National identity has outgrown outdated and exclusive notions of simple ethnicity to embrace a sense of belonging to a cultural community which we participate in by our own consent. Part of our sense of the authenticity of our national identity lies in the extent to which our consent has been freely given. When one exchanges money with another one consents to be constrained by the terms of the transaction participated in, and this is portrayed as the only possible connection between two people by the forces of globalisation. However the connection associated with belonging to a nation is entirely opposite to this; people do not invest their loyalties in a nation in the same way they accrue points on a loyalty card scheme.
334

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 16:56:49


Just to let you know that the forum is to be deleted - it's almost all inflammatory nonsense and abuse ... sorry for all your hard work.


And when BBC transmits its "History of Scotland" according to the dictats of BBC London it will be watched by one sleepy man and his dog, and only because he was expecting Mel Gibson to make an appearance.

.




335

kimba,

11/03/2008 16:57:01
347. fcuk off.
336

dimba,

11/03/2008 16:57:36
so r u coming to mines tonight or is it your turn to cook?! u r the gr8est! I want to no how u come out with such cleveh stuff - u r wiping the floor with thems!
337

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 16:57:53
When we say we belong to a nation the cultural community to which we have thus affiliated ourselves is more than a mere mirage, an arbitrary and short-lived contrivance determined by commercial expedient, but one of many expressions of our basic humanity that have stood the test of time, endured the betrayals of those concerned only with short term gain and thus condemned to long term impoverishment. Our nationality is authentic because it is not determined by the narrow materialistic and temporary priorities of anonymous plutocrats who dictate the terms of the transactions by which we are otherwise constrained. It relates us to the land by our respect for and reverence of it rather than by its rape and exploitation. It relates us to ourselves as humans making sense of the world with the benefit of a shared cultural framework rather than as economic atoms to be arbitrarily manipulated according to the whims of remote and antagonistic corporations. It is the essence of self control, rather than the remote control which is globalisation.

And so in contrast to England's self-appointed mission, the mission Scotland finds itself with is to abandon the disguise it has assumed for the duration of that odious anomaly, the Union. The masquerade of empire has ended, there is nothing more to gain, no more remains. All that is left is to become ourselves again.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALBA GU BRATH
338

Sile,

Planet Mayhem 11/03/2008 16:58:32
58#
Can I just remind you it was Scotsmen who lied to the people that took us into an illegal war, and over a million people marched in London against them, bLIAR Brown, Reid,Browne,Darling and Welshman Prescot the War council and its a Scotsman Browne who now denies our COMBINED forces compensation for the terrible injuries they have suffered because they are ill equiped for the job they have sent them to do, wonder how history will record that.
I lay Odds you would blame the English :|)
339

dimba,

11/03/2008 16:59:18
have i messed up again? are we meant to b not knowing each other so we can trap the nats? soz hunny. forgive me? am not as bright as u.
340

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 16:59:25
I can see this debate needs raised to a higher level so I would just like to point out that the only reason England deemed itself capital of Britain is because its stuck on the end of this island...facing europe..and all the big boats wae the baccy an the tatties etc goat there first....
341

Enigma,

11/03/2008 16:59:49
327

`Arrogance `? What are you on about, I just asked if you feel you don`t have freedom of speech in Scotland. I didn`t `trample over` anyone`s post. Unless you have a persecution complex of course.
342

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 17:00:38
#351.

Up yours dog breath
343

Enigma,

11/03/2008 17:01:07
350

Yup, probably that one man will be a fan of Braveheart
344

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 17:01:39
#356. I did try.
345

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:02:30
haha! u got hen broon good 1! we can laff about that later on!!
346

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 17:02:52
#350. How do you know this?
347

kimba,

11/03/2008 17:05:41
345. Do you think we would stay if we had a choice,you seem to forget we have the "scottish raj" in westminter,hence the people of England are powerless at the moment,but,plans are in motion to rid England of all scottish numpties.
348

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 11/03/2008 17:06:16
#70# you missed out lying, scheming, expense swindling, self aggrandising politians in your comment!
All of which damage Scotland. Will they also be mentioned as historical fact, and the percentage difference between Westminster, and Holyrood, to which comparison should be entered into the statistics.
349

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 17:06:57
Crossed George - you really are as thick as your rants imply, if you read what I wrote I NEVER said England or the English were crap. I have English ancestry, my gran was English and I don't descend to personal bigotry, unlike yourself who takes the time to search out Scottish forums to empty your bile and pish into. You try to say Brown isn't British - then what the f*** is he, you thickshit?? And as for taking English money, I thought it was British? And of course you need us to run things for you, that's why we come here. What surprises us immigrants is the level of racism, bigotry, prejudice and pure ignorance there is in Ingerlund about their non-English British colleagues. It's frankly stunning. Still, it's nice to know that you're still hurting that you've been trying to take Scotland for millenia and haven't succeeded. But keep trying, it's fun kicking yer erses when ye try!
350

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:07:50
cool one - don't think he'll be back for a second shot at you now!! you tear them up, i'll bury them, sis!
351

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 17:09:04


357 Enigma - But No Man of Mystery

Not arrogant? Not an attempt at censorship?

Exactly why are you posting verbiage about Scots on a Scottish newspaper?

Does the occupation not strike you as a little odd, something of a waste of time, and rather obsessive?



352

kimba,

11/03/2008 17:10:11
358. That says all we need to know; sh-t ar-e!
353

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:11:02
u an me are the bestest at this - think when we are done there will be no more silly nats!! We are like old dad working 60hrs a week to save the scots! LOL!
354

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 17:11:30
The following extract is from page 97 of Chapter 5, ‘The Growth of Radicalism’, of that book -

‘In 1812 the United States of America had, frustrated by continued English interference in American affairs, restriction of American trade, interference in American freedom of movement and economic policies, declared war on England. The war ended on January 8 1815, when the Americans won a decisive victory over the English forces. Scotsmen were still considered ‘persona grata’ with Americans and not really considered as nationals of the country with which they were at war. Jeffrey, in fact, was received and entertained by Munroe, the Secretary of State, and even lunched with President Madison, with whom he had a number of discussions on Scottish problems.’



355

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:12:01
yeah! that got rid ogf hen broon - hoos next?
356

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 17:12:22
Hen Broon - you're fantastic, I'm a signed up fan. Vile abuse and wonderful, descriptive language all from the one voice articulating for Scotland, it's great!
357

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:14:40
Exasperated,Guildford 11/03/2008 17:06:57
Crossed George - you really are as thick as your rants imply, if you read what I wrote I NEVER said England or the English were crap. I have English ancestry, my gran was English and I don't descend to personal bigotry, unlike yourself who takes the time to search out Scottish forums to empty your bile and pish into. You try to say Brown isn't British - then what the f*** is he, you thickshit?? And as for taking English money, I thought it was British? And of course you need us to run things for you, that's why we come here. What surprises us immigrants is the level of racism, bigotry, prejudice and pure ignorance there is in Ingerlund about their non-English British colleagues. It's frankly stunning. Still, it's nice to know that you're still hurting that you've been trying to take Scotland for millenia and haven't succeeded. But keep trying, it's fun kicking yer erses when ye try!

WELL IF SCOTLAND IS SO GREAT - B*GGER OFF BACK THERE, JOCKSTRAP
358

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:15:23
hay sis, been such a good day for u - i will buy us some babycham and brandy to celebrate!
359

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:15:29
HEN BROON 5,11/03/2008 17:11:30
The following extract is from page 97 of Chapter 5, ‘The Growth of Radicalism’, of that book -

‘In 1812 the United States of America had, frustrated by continued English interference in American affairs, restriction of American trade, interference in American freedom of movement and economic policies, declared war on England. The war ended on January 8 1815, when the Americans won a decisive victory over the English forces. Scotsmen were still considered ‘persona grata’ with Americans and not really considered as nationals of the country with which they were at war. Jeffrey, in fact, was received and entertained by Munroe, the Secretary of State, and even lunched with President Madison, with whom he had a number of discussions on Scottish problems.’

SEE ME OFF? IN YOUR DREAMS
360

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:17:22
It does not even enter your thick heads that if you went about your independence campaign without slagging every one else off, you might have more genuine support in England. AS IT IS, WE ONLY WANT YOU TO HAVE INDEPENDENCE SO WE CAN SEE THE BACK OF YOU
361

kimba,

11/03/2008 17:17:54
Dimba.GO AWAY!
362

HEN BROON 5,

11/03/2008 17:17:54
Our nationality is authentic because it is not determined by the narrow materialistic and temporary priorities of anonymous plutocrats who dictate the terms of the transactions by which we are otherwise constrained. It relates us to the land by our respect for and reverence of it rather than by its rape and exploitation. It relates us to ourselves as humans making sense of the world with the benefit of a shared cultural framework rather than as economic atoms to be arbitrarily manipulated according to the whims of remote and antagonistic corporations. It is the essence of self control, rather than the remote control which is globalisation.

kimba, what do you really think, do you think the post imperial nationalist ambitions of small nations are valid in todays European post industrial multi national knowledge based society?

Do your really use kippers as a personal deodorant?
363

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:18:12
376 - you tell them kimba! ;)
364

Micropacer,

11/03/2008 17:18:15
I find it both amusing and amazing that these forums continue to attract posters that are amusingly thick.

To go with their stupidity is an ability to post utter rubbish and appear to believe it.

Surely both Kimba and GEORGE have to be Scottish Nationalist posters on the Wynd up? There cannot out of the entire English population be two people as clueless as these two.

If these people are real then get them their own television series with the BBC Comedy unit as they are seriously good - in a David Brent sort of way.

365

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:22:00
micropacer - says it all really - you have a microbrain! My sis could knock you down with her intellygents anyday! Go show him kimba!
366

kimba,

11/03/2008 17:23:15
378. I think you talk the biggest load of boll-cks, you seem to forget people come on this thread for a bit of banter not "war and peace"
367

Los Angeles,

11/03/2008 17:24:13


380 Micropacer

They are not nationalists unless English nationalists.

The usual reposte is to tell such people to get a life, but in fact, they only have one life and there is some compensation in knowing they whittled it away insulting the Scots on an Internet forum with nothing to show for it.

Outside, the world past them by.



368

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:25:19
yeah! you tell him kimba! micropacer - you see what youra're in for now?
369

kimba,

11/03/2008 17:26:13
380.The only "wind up" on this thread is people like you, do you object to people supporting England,if you do then TOUGH!
370

ben w.barr,

north wilkesboro 11/03/2008 17:28:10
Why all the verbiage? History is in the eye of the writer and no one gets it right.
371

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:28:11
yeah! you got him good!
372

kimba,

11/03/2008 17:29:24
383.Think you will find we have plenty to show for it!
373

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:31:01
yeah - plenty!
374

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 17:32:30
HenBroon5 (370): "In 1812 the United States of America had, frustrated by continued English interference in American affairs, restriction of American trade, interference in American freedom of movement and economic policies, declared war on England."

Oh please! This was simply an attempt to conquer Canada; see, for example, here

http://www.lrbshop.co.uk/product.php?productid=3873&cat=35&page=1

"The war ended on January 8 1815, when the Americans won a decisive victory over the English forces."

The Canadians very much view this as a victory of the British Empire over the Americans, since the status quo ante was the result of the war: if it was anyone's war of independence, then it was Canada's. The US doesn't like to view this as the rather petty expansionist war it was in reality, preferring terms such as "second war of independence". In reality, it was a side-show whilst the British Empire continued the serious business of defeating Napoleon.

I thought Scots were proud of their part in the foundation of Canada. Presumably you regret Canadian independence, given your evident support for the US in the 1812--1815 war.
375

A Voice From Scotland,

11/03/2008 17:35:28
#376. As relevant breaking wind in a space suit. You will get the thread closed, that can be the only explanation for your knuckle dragging behaviour and your continual use of capital letters. Exactly what we have come to expect from thick brainless English thugs tattooed and beer bellied morons.

You are utterly reviled across the planet, where ever you go you leave a legacy of trouble and ignorance and violence that is in your genes, thick and pig ignorant.

Personally I blame it on the fact that England has the highest incidence of incest in the developed world, keep it in the family, it is well known that inbreeding cause mental instability and degeneration of the gene pool, so as you are in the shallow end you have no chance.

That is why you cannot play competitive sport any more without your fouling dangerous play mimicking your supporters thuggish behaviour. Banned from Europe for 5 years for mass murder, what a disgrace you are, no wonder you all slouch around with your heads down. No wonder the Scots can take you any time they feel like it.

We need independence to prevent further contamination.
376

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:35:43
can i tell everyione about are suckcess at the yoghurt tops meeting at Norton Rd tomorrow? I know u are better telling, but they should here it from me to! uv been the greatest!
377

dimba,

11/03/2008 17:37:52
i was telling grinning brian about your campayn today - he says you are are special as him! :))
378

Exasperated,

Guildford 11/03/2008 17:41:54
Crossed George - you gonna make me 'bogger off'?? You can try, you'd just get hurt you thick poof. Not surprised you like the word 'bogger' (deliberate spelling, correct version not allowed on the forum), you sodomite. Bet you'd enjoy that old English torture of the hot poker up the erse.
379

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:42:49
HEN BROON 5,11/03/2008 17:00:38
#351.

Up yours dog breath

NOT QUITE SO ELEQUENT WHEN YOU ARE NOT COPYING FROM A BOOK?

AND YOUR UPSETTING THE CANADIANS AS WELL NOW,
TUT
TUT
380

Andrew Allan,

11/03/2008 17:45:31
#380.,Micropacer.11/03/2008 17:18:15
‘I find it both amusing and amazing that these forums continue to attract posters that are amusingly thick.’

Considering what you are saying here and the fact you are one of those you find posting on this site, are you not one of those that these forums continue to attract, and are also amusingly thick to boot?

’To go with their stupidity is an ability to post utter rubbish and appear to believe it.’

Again Micropacer I have read your post and must concur with what I have read on it.

’Surely both Kimba and GEORGE have to be Scottish Nationalist posters on the Wynd up? There cannot out of the entire English population be two people as clueless as these two.’

Sorry to burst your bubble, and this isn’t to say the whole english population is the same, but there are indeed huge numbers in england who are clueless.



381

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 11/03/2008 17:48:35
A Voice From Scotland,11/03/2008 17:35:28
#376. As relevant breaking wind in a space suit. You will get the thread closed, that can be the only explanation for your knuckle dragging behaviour and your continual use of capital letters. Exactly what we have come to expect from thick brainless English thugs tattooed and beer bellied morons.

You are utterly reviled across the planet, where ever you go you leave a legacy of trouble and ignorance and violence that is in your genes, thick and pig ignorant.

Personally I blame it on the fact that England has the highest incidence of incest in the developed world, keep it in the family, it is well known that inbreeding cause mental instability and degeneration of the gene pool, so as you are in the shallow end you have no chance.

That is why you cannot play competitive sport any more without your fouling dangerous play mimicking your supporters thuggish behaviour. Banned from Europe for 5 years for mass murder, what a disgrace you are, no wonder you all slouch around with your heads down.

ANYWHERE ELSE SALMOND WOULD BE A REVOLUTIONIST, TRYING TO BREAK DOWN A COUNTRY, BUT IF IT KEEPS GIVING US SOMETHING TO LAUGH AT...
382

CROSSED GEORGE,

ENGLAND 11/03/2008 17:50:53
396,
I never been so offended, I AM NOT SCOTTISH OR A SCOTTISH NATIONALIST
383

Andrew Allan,

11/03/2008 17:51:26
When the bbc decided to do the history of building in britain they added the history of the time, and yet when they used one single programme for Scotland they managed to totally delete the Scottish Enlightenment as if it didn't exist, but put a number of things before and after that time. If it doesn't suit the english way of seeing things it won't appear on the bbc.
384

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:53:41
A voice from Scotland eh?

Speaking dribble

A clown from Guildford, bet your popular with your neighbours if you go shouting your anti english rubbish around town.

A how did I find this site, I did a search on Anti English racism and surprise, surprise, hundreds of websites appeared all with Scottish connections
385

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:55:51
Andrew Allan,11/03/2008 17:51:26
When the bbc decided to do the history of building in britain they added the history of the time, and yet when they used one single programme for Scotland they managed to totally delete the Scottish Enlightenment as if it didn't exist, but put a number of things before and after that time. If it doesn't suit the english way of seeing things it won't appear on the bbc.

"managed to totally delete the Scottish", makes a change because its usually us being deleted
386

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 17:58:12
Exasperated, A Voice from Scotland, Hen BROWN,

What a credit to your country to all are
387

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 18:01:37
402 Crossed George - as you are to yours! Numpty.
388

The Canadian,

11/03/2008 18:03:04
My family left the Highlands in 1841 and went to Montreal first of all and then got the opportunity to go to Nova Scotia where they got land beside some of the neighbours they had in Scotland.

Since then many of the descendants left Nova Scotia to go to other parts of Canada and the USA but we never lost our Culture and today we are able to speak to various family members in Gaelic and sing songs now not to be found in Scotland.

What a wonderful History and culture you have and I am proud that our ancestors have through all their difficulties kept our beautiful Gaelic language alive.

I sometimes hear that the people of Scotland do not have much respect for either our History or our language but I cannot understand how this could be so.
389

Andrew Allan,

11/03/2008 18:07:47
#398., CROSSED GOERGE.
Your ignorance doesn't just run to mixing up my post with that of #380 Micropacer, but it also runs to your ignorance to the widespread use of the use england in describing anything to do with the british empire. Though saying that education in english speaking countries at the time were based on the highly effective Scottish system which had made Scotland such a power house from the 1740s until around the 1880s.
390

erchie,

richt side o the dyke 11/03/2008 18:10:13
Todays daily telegraph has an article on how we should be celebrating brittishness........ usual anti scottish comments are in abundance.


btw cross st george your a complete erse. And one day knuckle draggin eejits like you will look in awe at scotland.Roll on independence so that were free from you and yours.
391

Sgurr,

11/03/2008 18:13:37
Crossed George is obviously stupid. He can't be entirely blamed though, as their education system is very poor. Kimba is another fine example of its output.
392

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 11/03/2008 18:31:12
Ahoy hoy Meths and my other independence minded chumrades.

Michty but this thread really blew up, who'd have thought bi-curious George would have caused such a ruckus with his micro-cocked dribblings?

Personally I love England, I like their music, literature, drama, comedy, artists, even some of their sporting heroes. I like their countryside, I like their regional accents, I like lots of their history. In essence I admire them from a distance.

I am just not of them.
393

Andrew Allan,

11/03/2008 18:33:22
#406.,erchie.
'Todays daily telegraph has an article on how we should be celebrating brittishness........ usual anti scottish comments are in abundance.'


erchie, considering the achievements by most Scots in the past have been celebrated as being british, but those by the english have been celebrated as being english, we Scots can surely say that we have done our share of celebrating britishness but where did it get us, while the english have always taken off the cream of recognition for themselves. It is time that Scotland got the recognition for what we have shown the world.
394

Conan the Librarian™,

11/03/2008 18:35:20
Can we have a hospital in Edinburgh now,Crossed George?

Between what you made last night and kimba's poor old dad's overtime, maybe we could have two?
395

Andrew Allan,

11/03/2008 18:35:56
#409.,OscarMacApfel.
Oscar I am with you, and I find this wouldn't change one bit within an independent Scotland.
396

Calum Crubag,

11/03/2008 18:49:17
Crossed George - you're the kind of Sasannach that makes our fellow Europeans equate you and your mindset with the Yanks.

You wouldn't be able to read and write if it wasn't for Gaelic speaking monks giving you literacy. Theirig is smaoinich mu dheidhinn amadain na croiche! Dith mhor na ceille!
397

CROSSED GEORGE,

England, Great Britain 11/03/2008 18:53:26
,11/03/2008 18:36:32
Ahoy hoy Oscar.

75ºF here and it's Rioja time. Like you I admire most things English. I admire things Welsh & Irish for that matter. I don't particularly admire Britishness ...whatever THAT means.

Andalucía voted PSOE for outright control.

Funny thing about new labour. All this Britishness and the enforced learning of English if you're an immigrant. That's what PP (right wing losers in Spain) were pushing...except that they wanted to force their immigrants to speak Spanish.

It's a funny old world.



Now I don't like Labour and certainly don't like Brown, but I think the "enforced" learning of English is right, if you emigrate to another country you don't expect them all to learn your language.

Would you emigrate to Spain and expect the Spanish to speak English and Gaelic, I don't think so. You make your home in someone else's country, the very least you can do is take the trouble to learn their language
398

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 18:54:34
Calum Crubag,11/03/2008 18:49:17
Crossed George - you're the kind of Sasannach that makes our fellow Europeans equate you and your mindset with the Yanks.

You wouldn't be able to read and write if it wasn't for Gaelic speaking monks giving you literacy. Theirig is smaoinich mu dheidhinn amadain na croiche! Dith mhor na ceille!


DIOLCH YN FAWR

(Want a translation)
399

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 11/03/2008 18:56:14
'It's a funny old world.'

Indeed Meths, and I for one wouldn't like to wrap it.

Hi Andrew, yep, these admirable traits we all admire in the other parts of the UK, would not diminish with the advent of an independent Scotland. In fact I look forward to an identifiable English identity coming to the fore.
400

Paloma negra,

11/03/2008 18:58:24
The only point of history
... is to understand the past
... and not repeat
... previous errors.

However too many get hung up on romanticising the past
... either to boost the tourist trade
... or to create the illusion that
... somehow the past was glorious and better.

Rubbish.

Live in the here and now.

Plan for the future.

The past is gone.
To agonise over it constantly is silly.
401

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 11/03/2008 19:00:28
Calum Crubag,11/03/2008 18:49:17
Crossed George - you're the kind of Sasannach that makes our fellow Europeans equate you and your mindset with the Yanks.

You wouldn't be able to read and write if it wasn't for Gaelic speaking monks giving you literacy. Theirig is smaoinich mu dheidhinn amadain na croiche! Dith mhor na ceille!

OscarMacApfel,Dumfries 11/03/2008 18:56:14
'It's a funny old world.'

Indeed Meths, and I for one wouldn't like to wrap it.

Hi Andrew, yep, these admirable traits we all admire in the other parts of the UK, would not diminish with the advent of an independent Scotland. In fact I look forward to an identifiable English identity coming to the fore

In my dribbling