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Food fight over Scots language in supermarkets

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Published Date: 21 June 2009
THE battle for independence has moved into the fruit and veg aisles. A Nationalist politician has written to supermarkets demanding that they translate the English names of fresh produce into their Scots equivalents, such as "tatties", "neeps" and "brambles".
Bill Wilson, the MSP for the West of Scotland, says stores should label goods in their stores according to the most commonly used Scots phrases north of the border.

Wilson says few people use the English names potato, turnip or blackberry, so the
big stores should change their labels. As a compromise, he suggests both the English and Scots words for fruit and vegetables could be used on packaging to respect both tongues.

Wilson, a long-time campaigner for Scots to be given equal status as a recognised language, has previously claimed that people who use Scots words face discrimination. But critics last night attacked him for wasting the stores' time during a recession.

Wilson said: "I can't see why they shouldn't use Scots words. For example, nobody uses the word 'blackberry' in Scotland; they're always referred to as brambles. The stores are very keen to say that they use Scots goods. Why don't they use Scots words as well?"

Wilson wrote to the main stories including Tesco, Sainsbury's and Asda, which have now given him a blunt rebuff, saying any change would cause confusion, particularly among tourists and new arrivals.

The campaign is just the latest attempt by Wilson to ensure the Scots language is given a more official status. He has called for the European Union to give Scots the status of a regional or minority language, so it is considered alongside Welsh, Gaelic and Irish.

Wilson also said that the failure to provide education to native speakers of Scots was "a breach of human rights".

Scots words for vegetables that Wilson wants to restore include the Scots "tumshie" for turnip. He says it would end the current confusion caused by the use of the English "swede" in supermarkets. He would also like spring onions to be referred to by the Scots "syboes".

Wilson said last night: "I haven't had an overwhelming response. Tesco said no they won't. The other supermarkets wrote back saying they thought it would cause confusion. Why don't we, in the year of Homecoming, recognise that there are other languages?"

Richard Dodd, of the Scottish Retail Consortium, said: "It would be like saying in other parts of the country that we're going to label potatoes as spuds. Product labelling is there to provide the maximum clarity to the biggest number of people, and that is why the correct and most widely understood words are the ones used.

"There will often be people visiting from other parts of the country who might not understand these words. Tourism is also very important to the Scottish economy, and if you end up with overseas visitors being confused by what is on the label, it isn't good for them or us".

Labour MP for Aberdeen South Anne Begg accused the SNP of wasting time. She said: "It doesn't matter what things are called on the bag – what's inside is important. We are all proud of our Scots tongue, but people are worried about their jobs and homes, not the names vegetables are sold under."

She added: "What will the SNP be wanting next? Different packages for rowies and butteries depending which part of the north-east the supermarket is in? Different bags for softies and hardies depending on the local words?"

One industry source added: "This idea was clearly dreamed up sitting on the cludgie. Scottish food and drink should be going more global, not more parochial."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 June 2009 12:30 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Jerry Springer,

20/06/2009 23:33:28
A Nationalist politician has written to supermarkets demanding that they translate the English names of fresh produce into their Scots equivalents such as "tatties", "neeps" and "brambles".
=======================================================

DEAR OH DEAR.

The SNP become a bigger joke by the day.
2

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/06/2009 00:14:03
A Nationalist politician has written to supermarkets demanding ....

Demanding! Whit a tumshie!

Seriously, though. Everyone in my family speaks English either as a first or second language, and we never say neep or tattie. And surely turnip is the Scottish word for "swede"? We do say bramble, but that's from plucking them in the back lane for Mum to make jam. I don't think anyone's ever bought the things and I'm not sure I've ever seen them on sale in shops.

Still, I've only live here all my life. Whit wad Ah ken?

3

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/06/2009 00:24:10
He would also like spring onions to be referred to by the Scots "sybie".

Syboes, surely? And I've seen lots of shops call them that, same as lots of shops call them scallions.

Instead of this under-employed MSP - obviously a list MSP, as the designation "the MSP for the West of Scotland" denotes - bothering honest shopkeepers, he should have a look at the ludicrous situation in Northern Ireland, where there's a whole industry under Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch wasting public money and atracting international ridicule. Is that what he wants? Cos that's what he'll get.

Read on -

Tha Noarth-Sooth Boord ò Leid is come aboot frae tha Bilfawst Greeance as yin o tha Noarth-Sooth boords. Tha Boord o Leid taks in twa faictòries, Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch an Tha Boord o Gaelick (Foras na Gaeilge). Ilka yin o thir twa faictòries haes its ain boord quhilk thegither maks tha Noarth-Sooth Boord o Leid. The preses o ilka Boord is baith Claucht-Preses o tha Boord o Leid.

Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch bis gart unnèr tha laa guide tha "forderin o mair forstannin an uise o tha Ulstèr-Scotch leid an o Ulstèr-Scotch fowkgate daeins, baith ben Norlin Airlann an athort tha islann".

Tha Boord maun gie answer til tha Noarth-Sooth Cooncil o Männystèrs, an maist o aa tae tha twa Männystèrs, baith in tha Norlin Airlann Semmlie an Dáil Eireann, as taks adae wi tha leid an tha heirskip o Ulstèr-Scotch fowkgates.

Tha Boord is ootbye govermenn männystries, but haes laa-makkin pooers in baith kintras on tha islann o Airlann.

Tha Boord wull hae its heich offis in Bilfawst, an an unnèr-offis in Dunnygal.
4

Gorach,

Oban 21/06/2009 01:46:44
Must agree with Wilson on this one.

The stores certainly should not be using the "English" words for produce in Scotland. Thats really rubbing it in. Just use the standard word but using the Scots word would be great.Visitors and newcomers must respect Scotland first. It will help them understand Scots culture.

5

Glasgow Expat,

Desert 21/06/2009 05:44:44
Wha's like us?! Good to see our politicians have the right priorities in the face of the biggest ever economic and social meltdown..that is only just starting. Aff wi their heids.
6

huggs,

21/06/2009 06:53:14
Bill Wilson

Should get his priorities sorted.
We are in a recession at war with terrorists,MP's caught up i fraudulent claims our borders are a complete joke and yet the biggest thing on his adgenda is Potatoes or Tatties!!
Is this guy for real no wonder our country is going down hill fast.

7

jane shore,

london 21/06/2009 08:40:55

How sweet , how quaint.

Personally I never look at heading labels, i know what a turnip, spring onion or potato (spud) looks like anyway. The smaller print, which farm, & where can be interesting though, likewise Saltires or St. George flags add a little patriotic lift.
8

Mcsnagpile,

21/06/2009 09:12:01
At one time we had Scottish local shops and they commonly used Scottish descriptions for produce. Now-a-days most shops are English, American and Asian. In fact American English descriptions are increasingly more common than Scottish.
Do you buy crisps or potatoe chips?
Mean while am just goin to mozy down to the store to buy provisions fir the critters.
9

W Smith,

Middle East 21/06/2009 09:13:55
The SNP - Scotland's official Useful Idiots Club

When Angus Robertson's not talking to the Iranian ambassador, and Salmonds not talking to Hamas we've got Bill Wilson, who I suspect hasn't done a stroke fo work for the last year prattling on a about tatties.

The work-shy little commie.
10

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 09:34:16
Anne Beggm sez "we're all proud of our Scots tongue" Well, hen there a few on this threid who arenae.

Fifi never uses the word 'tattie' ? She must either live in a rarefied part o Morningside or else had the native Scottiscisms brow-beaten oot of her at school.
11

Muttley.1,

Edinburgh 21/06/2009 09:44:37
Aye and change the name of 'Scotmid' to 'Quap' when they're at it, I am so confused! What next, when our soldiers are in battle we get someone to run in front of the enemy and point at who they are supposed to shoot? Is this what MP's are paid for and waste public money for to make ridiculous statements like this?
12

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 10:02:31

If supermarkets start using dialect words for produce in Scotland surely they would have to use dialect words throughout the UK?

And who decided that totties is Scots dialect for potatoes?

In my experience they are more likely to be called tatties or spuds.

Perhaps each individual supermarket should be free to designate its products as it sees fit?

Perhaps each item should have several names?

Whatever, it's good to see that the SNP aren't wasting taxpayers' money.


13

Simon,

Edinburgh 21/06/2009 10:38:27
Utter dribble and stupidity from an SNP MSP
14

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/06/2009 10:50:30
#10 - Scotland is a big place and there's all kinds of regional dialects.

I come from a linguistically diverse family background and have a "distinctive" Scottish accent because of that, and was brought up in a part of Scotland where we didn't speak like characters from the Broons. I'm not going to say where that is because there are some people who hang about here with a chip on their shoulder and time on their hands, but #13 kind of makes my point. I probably understand most of these words but if I were to try to use them I would probably come across as trying to be "quaint". Like the people behind the ghastly Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch.

I'm reminded of a time in school when we had a student teacher who tried to get us to read Burns out loud. He stopped me from doing so because my Scottish accent was not sufficiently "authentic". It didn't make me any less Scottish, it just made him a bit of a bigot. He probably failed at teaching and grew up to become a nationalist list-MSP.

We should not try to divide Scots into groups because they don't fit a standardised view of what a Scot is and how he or she speaks. What is really important is that we can all understand each other and that we listen to what each other says without despising each other because of our accents or the words we use.
15

The Ayrshire Bard,

21/06/2009 10:56:40
Many years ago I had a greengrocer's business in Edinburgh. Customers asked for Golden Wonders 12months of the year no matter the variety of spud on sale,and most believed that every orange, no matter which veriety or country of origin, was a Jaffa. Who is going to dictate the national description of produce when the name varies from region to region. This is just a politician wishing to see his name in print and is very, very silly.
16

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 11:04:06
Personally I favour having produce labelled bilingually in the way that Bill Wilson proposes. My own personal take on this is that I use Scots in everyday domestic life. My wife and I were married in Scots, against opposition from Aberdeen City Registrars who refused to conduct the ceremony.

Re #2: Wilson is in no position to "demand" anything. That's an invention by SoS. He's not proposing that English be excluded, but that both languages be used.

Re #3 : there's no reason to suppose that having common Scots words alongside English in shops could ever lead to the sort of bad Scots (e.g. the misuse of "leid" to represent a countable entity) that we see in official documents from NI.

Re #5 and #6 : these greater matters are being addressed elsewhere. It's perfectly appropriate for a local MSP to address more local matters.

Re #11: sorry, can't see the slightest connection.

Re #12: these aren't "dialect" words comparable to e.g. "spud", but are words of Scots which was Scotland's only language of government and state until 1603.

Re #16 : the "people behind the ghastly Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch" aren't trying to be quaint, but are working to an openly political agenda.

" What is really important is that we can all understand each other and that we listen to what each other says without despising each other because of our accents or the words we use. "

Unfortunately this describes the situation we're currently in, as my (then) fiancée and I found when the registrars refused to marry us in our own tongue. Fortunately we we married in another area, and eventually we received an apology from the Registrar General.

Official status and recognition for the Scots language will lift the stigma associated with it. There *is* a stigma associated with it, as is clearly shown by many of the comments above.

Re #17: "Who is going to dictate...?" These days, the EU. Its product labelling regulations are very strict. Whatever I or Bill Wilson might favour, I s
17

Colin Wilson,

21/06/2009 11:04:50
(continued) Whatever I or Bill Wilson might favour, I suspect that this idea would ultimately fall foul of EU regulations.
18

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/06/2009 11:09:39
I think it's fine to get married in Scots, or some local version of it, but not to try to make grocers sell potatoes in it.

I don't think you're right to say that Scots was Scotland's only language of government and state until 1603, though. Wasn't Gaelic in occasional use?
19

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 11:21:13
Re #20 : nobody's trying to "make" anyone do anything. Bill Wilson has written to shops offering a suggestion, one that I happen to think is a good idea, although it's probably forbidden by the EU.

"Language of state": I agree my comment wasn't entirely accurate, as Latin too had been used at an earlier period. To my knowledge, Gaelic has never been used officially in government or public adminstration although obviously it was the personal first language of some Scottish monarchs.
20

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 11:50:14
18 Colin Wilson


Scots isn't and never has been a language.

It's the name given to the collection of dialects of English spoken in Scotland.

Gnats like to claim language status for Scots because they think it somehow shows how separate and distinctive Scotland was from the rest of the UK.
21

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 12:01:48
Re #22: pre-1603, Scots was Scotland's spoken and written language of government, and of much of our literature. It was as much standardised as any other European language was in those days, and certainly as much as the English used for the same purposes in England.

As for "dialects", even today you can tell instantly which side of the political border a given dialect comes from, even down to a distance of less than a mile.

I don't know anything about "gnats". If it's a pejorative term for "nationalists", then you can count me out as I'm not interested in ideologies or even particularly much in politics.
22

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 12:16:21
23 Colin Wilson,

'pre-1603, Scots was Scotland's spoken and written language of government, and of much of our literature.'


Was it really?

What language did William Dunbar write in? He thought he wrote in English. Perhaps you know better than he did what language he used.


'As for "dialects", even today you can tell instantly which side of the political border a given dialect comes from, even down to a distance of less than a mile.'


You can distinguish accents easily enough. But then there is no such thing as a Scottish accent. Someone from Stranraer has a different accent to someone from Stromness.As you say, accents can be pinned down to very specific areas, which rather undermines your claim that Scots is a separate, discrete language.

It is not so easy though to distinguish dialect words. Many words Scots regard as their own are common in the Geordie and Cumbrian dialects and some are used as far south as Yorkshire.
23

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 21/06/2009 12:25:43
What a bloody nonsense.
24

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 12:47:54
Re #24 : "Was it really?"

Yes.

"What language did William Dunbar write in? He thought he wrote in English."

Maybe he did think that. Lots of Scots-speakers think they speak English. It'd be interesting to know if he (as a monoglot Scots-speaker) still thought that, if he'd ever got on the boat to London for a week's holiday.

Last year my wife FJ and I were in a bar in Alvor, in the Algarve. The place wasn't busy, and we alternated between chatting to each other in Scots, and chatting to the barmaid in SSE when she wasn't serving other customers. At one point she was telling us about getting to grips with understanding Portuguese, and I asked her whether she understood what FJ and I were saying. "Yes", she replied without the slightest hint of discourtesy, "when you speak English".

"You can distinguish accents easily enough. But then there is no such thing as a Scottish accent. "

That's true, if what's meant is "a single Scottish accent". However, it's also missing the point. One doesn't need the slightest technical knowledge of language in order to tell whether a given dialect or accent comes from one side of the border or the other side. The division into one category or the other is not just an arbitrary one as SB implies in #22. There are clear and consustent linguistic differences which even the ordinary person can recognise instantly.

Re #25: sadly, that comment is very typical of the level of discussion of language issues in Scotland. A massive re-education is needed.
25

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 12:49:35
PS re #26: judging by her tongue, the barmaid concerned was from somewhere in Northern England.
26

The Ayrshire Bard,

21/06/2009 13:03:23
Robert Burns wrote most of his poems and songs in Scots, but if you read his letters the story changes. They are written in perfect English prose.
27

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 21/06/2009 13:22:42
#26.
You appear to present yourself as an intellectual. I cannot, so can I ask you to explain the meaning of the word "consustant". I can't find it in my lexicon.
28

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 13:33:59
Re #29 : I'm no intellectual, nor am I an especially good typist. "Consustant" was a typing error, intended to be "consistent".
29

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 14:51:00
26 Colin Wilson


Dunbar thought he used the same language as Chaucer.

But it seems he was wrong.

Isn't it odd that those who are able to say he is wrong are all gnats?

You seem to think that the unintelligibility of your conversation means that you were speaking a separate language. If that's the case then Geordie, Scouse, Cockney and a number of other English dialects are separate languages.

The claim for separate language status for Scots has no linguistic justification. It's a purely political notion.

30

Observer,,

Glasgow 21/06/2009 15:21:02
When you buy a turnip[/tumshie or a blackberry/bramble (available in most supermarkets Fifi where do you shop?) you can see what it is you don't need a label.

On a scale of 1 to 10 this rates as about 0.00000001 in importance.
31

radge dug,

21/06/2009 16:22:57
Usual red-herrings about priorities. Sure, homelessness and poverty are important but neither will be defeated in one stroke - why then, Anne Begg, has Labour in it's decades of power not acheived that?

Shold we avoid small measures that aren't important in the meanwhile? And to those who say that this isn't as important as poverty (i agree), well, what are YOU doing against poverty?

I say, we continue the fight against poverty AND use words like 'brambles' - does it cost more to write 'brambles' than blackberries?
32

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/06/2009 17:00:25
Common sense and linguistic imperialism do not good bedfellows make.

Take the case of the mince pie. Or mincemeat pie as we know it.

Every Christmas I see mince pies in seasonal boxes - just don't take one to a football match.

"It might confuse the locals" does not come into their vocabulary.

Anyone remember the SE England recorded platform announcements at Haymarket in the 80's? "Visitors wouldn't understand a Scottish accent" was the reply.

FFS - "Platfm fo to Abedeen. Stopping at Inverkee-thing, Car-dehnnnn-dehnnnn".

What about the locals? Don't get me started on King-gussie.

Jeez man, if I go to France or Italy or Germany do I expect everything to be labelled in English?


33

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/06/2009 17:02:36
Oh Stanley@24. Nice to know that the Cumbrians and Geordies speak a variant of Scots.
34

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 21/06/2009 17:06:26
Fifi@3. You have shown that Scots is a language. I could understand the Ulster Scots in the same way as a lot of Dutch is similar to Deutsch.

Difference being that the Dutch are not subservient to Berlin.
35

Ffion,

21/06/2009 17:16:33
According to government campaigns, no-one in Scotland buys fresh fruit & veg anyway so what does it matter ? Plus the only blackberries (or brambles) I've seen in shops aren't the sort you eat.Why not re-name them as well. Imagine our masters-of the-universe bankers at a high powered meeting "oh sorry gentlemen, I've just got an e-mail on my Bramble!"
36

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 17:19:59
12 you mean supermarkets using indigenous languages for products.

And through the west they pronounce 'tatties' as 'totties'
37

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 17:21:15
13 in the Grange they eat 'potatoes'
38

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 17:25:51
22 - if that's the case English isnae a language either. English, Scots, Doric, German,Dutch, Flemish are all variants on the original Germanic tongue.
39

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 17:28:56
33 - of course it aint aboot priorities, it's just some folk have problems with the promotion of the indigenous culture here.
40

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 17:31:20
34 - what us natives used to call mince pies are now Scotch (sic) pies. I suppose it's for the benefit of tourists or natives of the Grange ?
41

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 17:38:43
39 Pilrig

'in the Grange they eat 'potatoes''


And they keep them in sex.

42

,

21/06/2009 17:44:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

Tartan Bond,

21/06/2009 17:50:57
We pay clopinettes for MSPs like Bill Wilson MSP SNP and we still get monkeys.

All this talk of food is just making Salmond hungry and we know where that leads. Why is the SNP obsessed with food?
44

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 18:11:15
Re Stan Butler (#27) : "Isn't it odd that those who are able to say he is wrong are all gnats?"

I've really no idea what that's intended to mean.

"The claim for separate language status for Scots has no linguistic justification. "

That's a "strawman". No-one is claiming that Scots is a separate language. That's a fairly meaningless idea in any case. The claim is simply that Scots is a language. This is based on its literature, its history as a language of government, and the fact that it isn't completely intelligible to speakers of related Germanic varieties, who haven't had prior exposure to it.

If people want to treat varieties such as Geordie, Scouse and Cockney as languages then I have no problem with that, although this would be an entirely new development which is not the case with Scots.
45

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/06/2009 18:17:42
Further to #46, I'd also point out that Geordie, Scouse and Cockney are individual varieties associated with individual regions whereas Scots has different varieties spoken in different regions of Scotland.
46

Kenny A,

21/06/2009 20:59:50
Right people, this Mr Wilson is a lunatic. I use the word blackberry for example, a bramble is something different where I am from. Not wanting to upset people but Old Scots is just a dialect of English, which is a type of German language.

This is now getting to the stage where I should demand everything sold is labeled in Gaelic as it is a seperate toung, the language of Scotland, and what would happen,if everything was labeled in Gaelic perhaps 60,000 of us would have the faintest idea. The rest would be B£$£6*90llecked. If this proposa goes ahead lets put things into Polish, Russian, Tagalog, Chinese and all other languages presently spoken in Scotland.

I do not speak Scots, Hindi, Chinese or Pargat (thats from New Guiney by the way). I am all in favour of languages being retained but surly Mr Wilson can give us credit for being able to read English.

I wonder how many languages he can talk in, barring gibberish. This is a joke this proposal and I think it is just a stunt.

Fool
47

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 22:15:42
47 Colin Wilson


In other words Scots is the name given to the different dialects of English spoken in Scotland.

The only people who claim that Scots is a language are Scottish nationalists.
48

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 22:31:12
43 - exactly
49

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 22:34:42
51 nonsense.
To change languages,one of the staunchest advocates of Gaelic is Brian Wilson and no-one could accuse him of being a Scottish Nationalist.
50

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/06/2009 22:37:48
49 - correction. Old Scots, New Scots, Doric, and variation of English south of the Border and of course RP are themselves variations of the original Germanic tongue.
51

Stan Butler,

21/06/2009 22:58:24
54 Pilrig

No.

English is derived from a number of sources.

One of those sources is the Germanic language, but there are others.

Scots is a collection of dialects of English. It doesn't involve synthesis with other languages.
52

Jack McIntyre,

Glasgow 23/06/2009 14:33:49
You have got to be kidding me... This really is 'best wee country in the world' stuff.

PJ O'Rourke once commented that Europe was comprised of “dopey little countries”, “pokey borders”, “itty-bitty” languages and “Lilliputian” drinks measures that made the visitor feel claustrophobic: “You can’t swing a cat without sending it through customs,” he complained.

Many thanks to Bill Wilson for helping the SNP further us in to the the cul-de-sac of history and turning us in to an irrelevant and quaint museum-piece...
53

peem birrell,

embra 24/06/2009 23:15:20
It was a mutton pie not an effete mince pie. Ah dinna ken quhar ahd git a mutton pie noo.
Onyweys, Scots *is* a different language, and was the official language of the Scottish Parliament before the Union. The records of the Parliament are clearly *not* written in Inglis - hae a keek at them if ye dinna believe me.

 

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