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Ferry firm rules out Sabbath links to isles



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Published Date: 07 August 2008
FERRY operator Caledonian MacBrayne has decided not to introduce mainland Sunday sailings to the strictly Sabbatarian isles of Lewis and Harris this winter.
It follows a petition by more than 4,000 people against the controversial sailings – and a counter-petition demanding the service also signed by thousands.

The decision was taken by the board of CalMac despite a Scottish Government trial starting
on 19 October aimed at slashing fares and boosting passengers on the routes.

Campaigners had believed the Scottish Government's decision to pilot a Road Equivalent Tariff (RET) on services to the Western Isles made it more likely CalMac would opt to schedule seven-day operations on both its Stornoway to Ullapool route and Tarbert on Harris to Uig in Skye – the only two major CalMac services without a Sunday sailing.

The £22.5 million RET pilot will link ferry prices to the cost of travelling the same distance by road, and will see some fares slashed on the Western Isles routes by nearly 50 per cent.

David Taylor, CalMac's regional manager for the Hebrides, said there would be no changes to the existing winter timetable, although a review would take place at some stage during the trial.

This means that while Lewis and Harris continue to have no Sunday sailings, the neighbouring islands of North Uist, South Uist and Barra will all have Sabbath sailings. The islands of Coll and Tiree – which are also in the RET pilot – will continue to have their Sunday sailings, while an inter-island ferry between Harris and Berneray will continue on Sunday.

John Roberts of the Lord's Day Observance Society which had organised the massive campaign against Sabbath sailings in Lewis and Harris said it was delighted by the decision.





The full article contains 297 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 August 2008 9:53 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

VoteoutLibLabConTraitors,

real world 07/08/2008 01:40:30
John Roberts of the Lords Day Observance Society is delighted by the decision to stop Sunday sailings.
I think it beggars belief that folk who believe in fairy stories still hold sway in the 21st century. Mind boggling really.
2

Conan the Librarian™,

07/08/2008 02:10:43
"John Roberts of the Lord's Day Observance Society which had organised the massive campaign against Sabbath sailings in Lewis and Harris said it was delighted by the decision."

Is delight no' a sin?
3

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 07/08/2008 02:35:34
#2 The Calvinists thought so:(
4

Guga II,

Rockall 07/08/2008 03:20:31
MacBraynes is owned by the Scottish government, even though it is run by an unelected quango. By refusing to give us Sunday sailings, they are denying our human rights. We have as much right as anyone else in Scotland to have public transport available on Sunday.

If the curamachs don't want to travel on a Sunday, nobody is going to force them. However, they have no right to try and stop the rest of us from travelling on the ferries.
5

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 05:58:21
What pitiful idiots still live in the islands. I went there and saw a woman sitting in near darkness in her window reading the holy bible and saw childrens' swings padlocked in the playground (both on Sunday)

Get the ferries running and pump up the lawnmowers I say. these people belong two centuries ago.
6

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 06:00:07
and if there is a God along their terms he would presumably strike me down right now with a thunderbolt. I think not. Grow up islanders.
7

fife runner,

07/08/2008 06:17:57
#1 and others there is no need to stoop to castigating others beliefs. I am a devout Christian but am in favour of Sunday sailings. It is entrenched ideas such as yours and those of the so called Sabbatarians tha cause trouble. No meaningful discussion can take place in view of such positions.
8

fife runner,

07/08/2008 06:21:19
I also take part in running races on Sundays and shop and see no issue. Everyone is entitled to their own view but it should not be used to force others to do what they want ( except commtting crime). We all have free will.
9

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 06:29:33
#7 and #8 we should all the right to belittle silly superstitious beliefs - which is all religion is. Half an hour after posting my comments I still haven't been "smited". Says it all really.

There really is no fat old bearded man sitting on a cloud with a Shepard’s crook in his hand. Face the facts.
10

Boy Wonder,

07/08/2008 07:26:31
The sailings should go on as a matter of course! No-one is forcing these religious idiots to use the service! Let them stay at home with their superstition if that's what they want ... but because they don't like it doesn't mean everyone else should suffer! Introduce the service. Calmac should not alow religion to sway them from operating it!
11

Nikostratos,

07/08/2008 07:27:47
#1 to #9

obviously snp supporters who have never had to work on a sunday. Perhaps they should call it family day when families legally have time to spend together.

12

MacGillicuddy,

07/08/2008 07:48:52
There should be NO RET unless and until the ferry service is operated like the roads and available on EVERY day of the week.
Nobody is forcing the sackcloth and ashes mob to use the ferries on a Sunday.
13

It's me!,

07/08/2008 07:49:10
This is Scotland. If you are happy you must be sinning!
14

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 07/08/2008 07:56:16
No ferries actually stop us going to church as the first crossing is too late for the morning service and the last is too early for our return from later services. An atypical problem, admittedly.
15

hertscot,

07/08/2008 08:17:31
Are the Lord's Day Observance Society afraid the islanders might find out that you can do things on a sunday without the big fella smiting you!

Maybe it is time for an island clearance, or better still, let the eejits do without any ferry service, cos if god had meant us to cross large areas of water he would have given us scales and gills.

To all those who want an independent Scotland, we need to stop idiot religions having any influence on the government.
16

David Norris,

Dunfermline 07/08/2008 08:18:09
It is amazing how people distain the keeping of the Sabbath day, but yet (at least some do) think that it is wrong to steal, cheat, lie, murder, disobey parents and lawful authorities and commit adultery - yet when it suits their carnal and godless activities, they are happy to trample what God has ordained since the creation of the world.

The Sabbath was made for man, and the sooner we waken up to that fact, the better it will be.

There is one moral code which is summarised in the ten commandments.

And as for 14, I am not sure what church you attend, but using public transport on the Lords day is certainly not necessary or moral.
17

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 08:33:50
9. "There really is no fat old bearded man sitting on a cloud with a Shepard’s crook in his hand"

Whoever said there was? That would be like you mistaking yourself for a cartoon !

For me there's a more pertinent issue of majorities dominating minorities to the detriment of the minority way of life. Instead of trying eradicate these islanders way of life just let them be even if us mainlanders think their ways are outlandish or else, come the day, when some swayed majority will come along and start trying to remove our way of life we will reap what we sowed (cf. Niemoller). Let them be and keep the peace ... which is part of what Sabbath is about anyway.
18

MacGillicuddy,

07/08/2008 08:42:34
#16
You wrote; " ...but using public transport on the Lords day is certainly not necessary or moral."

But some of the said hypocrites actually use public transport to get to and from their places of "worship" on a Sunday, but would deny those who don't share their views the opportunity to have public transport to pursue other avocations.
19

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 08:45:26
PS All this talk about 'smiting' ... no wonder you don't believe if that's the only residual picture you have or love to play with.
If you think the Observance people might be a tad legalistic or resilient about their form of obedience then that's a different matter.
The number of incidences where God "smites" is relatively few compared to the more abundant number of times He forgives / exercises mercy.
If, however, instead of being 'legalistic' about their obedience, the observers have discovered a sublime joy in working out what it means to be obedient to God then who the heck are you to deprive them of that opportunity just because you want (or pretend to want) total ferry dominance. One day out of seven isn't asking a lot is it? It's because of that belief system that you enjoy a weekend at all !!!
20

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 07/08/2008 08:50:37
#16 David Norris.

You miss the point: ferries are public transport and we need them to get to church. As the schedules change on Sundays this means we cannot get to church unless we swim one way. Thus the sabbath observers are stopping some of the faithful from worship!
21

radge dug,

Taigh na Croiche - Stop the Scottish Taleban 07/08/2008 08:58:13
NO! Why can't the religious keep their faith in middle-easter fairy tales out of other people's lives? Are they so insecure that they have to have religion in or affecting schools, football, Orange Parades and even public transport? No-one is forcing them to do anything on the Sabbath.

It should be remembered that these Wee Free nutters also believe in the death penalty for all sorts of 'crimes' including adultery. They would also ban the theatre, rock music and sex outside marriage.

It's ridiculous that anyone still gives these morons any credence whatsoever.
22

radge dug,

Taigh na Croiche 07/08/2008 08:59:27
Should be 'middle-eastern fairy tales'! Easter of course is a pagan fairy tale that Christians follow.
23

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 08:59:52
20. "To that "Man is Made in God's Image". Therefore, if you were able to look God in the face (which you can't) he would look exactly like you (i.e. looking in a mirror).
That would make God everthing, man, woman, child, transgender, homosexual and so on."

A fair interpretation if that's what "Man is Made in God's Image" means - but in order to keep coherency with other qualities of God which are indicated (e.g. holiness) and also to keep a proper distinction between "Man is Made in God's Image" and either 'Man reformed in Man's image' or "Man corrupted by Man's actions" ... in addition to that the delineation of proper distinctions between God and Man since, at the very least, your undertaking of the basic tenet is that God is 'the Maker' and Man is not.
Taking your interpretation further, unless there was some cut-off point which would raise the question of criteria, then you would have to end up adding to your list " ... wife-beater, murderer, paedophile, rapist, liar".
In my understanding "Man is Made in God's Image" is not commutative and while God may see in us a remnant of what He made it does not result in us beholding HIm "he would look exactly like you". To have a mirror for a god, or permit a 'Mirror-god' belief, would be the crassest form of narcissism possible and very dangerous for humanity. History is littered with despots who thought of themselves as divine.
24

radge dug,

Taigh na Croiche 07/08/2008 09:03:22
Could this be challenged in court?

The relgious nuts already have their court - 'god' - so why can't they be content with that? If they believe i'm going to hell because i want a Sunday ferry then i'm happy with that. Just gees the ferry!
25

MacGillicuddy,

07/08/2008 09:04:31
#20
Sounds like #25 is giving you a snapshot of an upcoming sermon!
26

radge dug,

Taigh na Croiche 07/08/2008 09:06:27
If 'god' is so omnipotent, designed us all, knows what we think and do - then why does he need Dave Scott fae Broughty Ferry to defend him/her?

Again, if 'god' is so powerful, does it need a petition from the Western Isles?

Abair amaideas! Thoir dhuinn an aiseag, gun dail!
27

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 09:09:24
23/24. OK, it's obvious you have disdain for the Jewish / Christian faith 'thing' but please exercise a wee bit more of your sound judgement in not bundling Orange marches, or the like, with the basic precepts of the belief system.
If such people have 'used' God to foist hatred on others then they're in for a wee bit of a shock since God's probably going to prove Himself more real than they have imagined. Do you honestly think that God (please accept the existence just for the moment) condones blind bigotry or people exercising their own need for power over their neighbours? I don't.

Matthew 7:22-24 (New International Version)
" Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "

However, I generally wouldn't put Sabbath observing islanders in the category of 'evildoers' but then again I am not a judge.

28

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 09:17:00
"If 'god' is so omnipotent, designed us all, knows what we think and do - then why does he need Dave Scott fae Broughty Ferry to defend him/her?"

He doesn't. I'm just having a debate with other human beings.
If God is non-existent why do people like radge dug need to attack that which doesn't exist?

"Again, if 'god' is so powerful, does it need a petition from the Western Isles?"

He doesn't but we live in a world of human legislation and need to take human responsibilities - which is why we make laws to protect people as well as various laws which many of us may regard as unnecessary on which we are free to have opinions and argue cogently ... all part of the human condition.
29

,

07/08/2008 09:26:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

radge dug,

07/08/2008 09:42:09
Im attacking the nuts that use illogical faith to foist their own opinions on others lives. If they want that faith, fair enough, but let the rest of us live in the modern world.

The bible seems to condone wiping out whole populations. In fact, the Lord, for he is a JEALOUS Lord, seems to revel in it.

And, if 'god' is so powerful, why can't we leave it to adults to weigh up the ideas and evidence before choosing the path of faith? Why do we still indoctrinate children?

Dave am Barrach - surely we could take Cal Mac or the Scots Govt to court? On what grounds should they not give us a Sunday service? We already have an air service now, some shops, telly etc... Even in Leodhas, the church hasn't the power it once did. As to 'way of life', well it's already changed. Are people gonna go back to black houses and give up public transport, pavements, tourist centres, streetlights, big supermarkets (in Stornoway) etc?
31

radge dug,

Taigh na Croiche - Stop the Scottish Taleban 07/08/2008 09:44:00
Shin agaibh e! Feumaidh mi falbh a-nis... is tarbh losgadh air an altar!

slàinte mhath

32

Wallace1297,

Dundee 07/08/2008 10:07:17
Oh dear . Can you imagine if this Tartan Taliban ever got into power in the rest of Scotland? I mean this lot don’t have sex standing up as they fear it leads to dancing. How can anyone in 21st century Scotland possibly advocate of feudal medieval theocracy along the line of Saudi Arabia of Texas is beyond me
33

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 10:13:24
#16 God didn't create the world in six days and then take a breather on Sunday. It is a fairy story like all fairy stories and it is time for you to grow up.

Religious bigots in the islands should just be ignored as the freaks they are. (Oh, by the way God hasn't smited me yet because he isn't interested in rubbish like no ferries on Sundays)
34

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 10:15:22
Also these church freaks should all be locked up for child abuse. Not letting a child use the playground on their farsical Sabbath (come on God have a wee smite at me ;-) is a crime in itself.
35

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 07/08/2008 10:26:04
The tartan taleban aka the scottish xenophobist party have failed to opine on this knotty problem, although one notes that some of its fellow travellers are frothing at the mouth at the very idea of anyone having a religious faith. Why is there more merit in non believers enforcing their non beliefs upon believers, than vice versa?
36

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 10:34:13
#40 There is more merit in non-believers' arguments because we are grown up. If you believe in religion you may as well believe in fairies at the end of the garden. It's all claptrap designed to control and extract money from numpties in return for nothing.
37

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 10:37:14
Radge Dug "Im attacking the nuts that use illogical faith to foist their own opinions on others lives."
Totally agree with you if that means atheistic illogical faith as well as illogical theistic faith.

"And, if 'god' is so powerful, why can't we leave it to adults to weigh up the ideas and evidence before choosing the path of faith?"
He does, and he also offers it to children - otherwise he would be a pro-adult bigot.

Why major on Jealousy? It's a quality but not a major one and it's not the same as our human, pettier jealousy. That would be to make God in our image. Take the text in context
You also major on God's power as if His power means total control - that is a very dangerous belief to have about power ... totalitarian. I have no doubt that God can, if he chose to, obliterate everything but I don't see him doing that. I see Him as saving life.
From what I can gather it's a working relationship which upholds Man's free will and ability to make choices.

I'm happy to have a 21st century faith but I'm also happy to let people be who have an older way of doing things.
Why can't you let them have one day out of seven - you're getting six out of seven which seems more than fair to me.

37. Wallace 1297 - 'Taliban' - wrong faith mate. As for sex, I'm more than happy that it was provided, in its purest form, by God in the first place. There's a book in the Bible that's a celebration of it.

Feudal medieval theocracy? Care to unpack that one?
What with 'Wallace' and '1297' being certainly medieval and partly feudal / part Brehon :-)

Wiki:
Tradition often describes Wallace as "a common person".[citation needed] In fact Wallace's family were minor nobles (parish gentry) descending from Richard Wallace the Welshman (the name Wallace may mean "Welsh", or possibly 'foreigner'[1]) a landowner under an early member of the House of Stuart, which later listed him in 1296 as "crown tenant of Ayrshire" and concludes "'Sir' William Wallace was a younger
38

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 10:38:01
... "'Sir' William Wallace was a younger son of Alan Wallace, a crown tenant in Ayrshire". Wallace was allegedly educated in Latin by two uncles who had become priests

Sounds like Wallace most likely believed in God too.

39

Dave Scott,

St Albans 07/08/2008 10:39:15
40. "If you believe in religion you may as well believe in fairies at the end of the garden"

Disagree, but I can see why you disbelieve if you equate the two.
40

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 10:39:47
sorry for the wrong autofill.
41

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 10:45:13
#42 says "Why can't you let them have one day out of seven - you're getting six out of seven which seems more than fair to me".

Because they are power freaks who simply deploy some absurd fairy tale to give them the "right" to dictate to the rest of us how we live our lives. They can travel or not Monday to Saturday, their free choice and I couldn't care less. But they choose to control me on Sunday against my free will. To hell with all of them and their nonsense (and I still haven't been smited, wee freers).
42

danbob,

07/08/2008 10:49:39
There is no scripture in the bible that says you cannot do any work on a sunday. Jesus cured the sick on the sabbath. This is more about enforcing their will on the rest of the population than anything truly religious. Once again It would be nice if posters would do their homework and take the trouble to find out the truth. Stop attacking religion because of the misguided actions of a few fools.
43

hertscot,

07/08/2008 10:50:22
44, I think you'll find that #40 was putting forward the point that the same amount of evidence exists for garden fairies as does for a supreme deity.
44

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 10:52:07
#47 sorry if you misunderstand those of us "attacking religion". It's not because of the actions of a "few fools" as you put it, it's because the whole concept of religion is plain daft.
45

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 10:53:02
46. So you believe in hell then? (theological point rather than personal attack ... and, yes, it was unfunny and pedantic !)

OK, so how, in the interests of peace and humanity does one make a win-win situation? Their "right" to 'dictate' is the same as your "right" to dictate to them. You can travel Sat, Mon, Tue, Wed, Thurs & Fri. If you can't cope then why not buck the whole system and change the Christian weekend to your own weekend e.g. Wed/Thurs and then you can travel and return on your weekend and only have the inconvenience of not being able to travel on one of your own weekdays.

Fairy tale? ... a tad patronising perhaps?
46

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 07/08/2008 10:54:30
#30 - the sheriff at Stornoway is actually based at Inverness, and there's at least two of them. If there genuinely appeared to a conflict of interest, a sheriff from outwith the area could be drafted in. The point is, of course, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything they don't want to do. I'm pretty sure that there must be a remedy in law which would force the service to be made available.
47

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 10:56:56
47. Danbob ... Agreed, and it was a different Sabbath.

48. hertscot ... "the same amount of evidence exists for garden fairies as does for a supreme deity."
Oh really, ... prove it.


I'm waiting ;-P
48

écossais at heart,

france 07/08/2008 10:59:12
Individual freedom, which includes religious beliefs, should not and cannot infringe on other people's freedom. I respect their right to believe whatever they want, but it is a private matter and cannot serve to deprive others of a public service. The notion of public service is to provide individuals a service to those who need/want it. It is beyond me how a ferry crossing can interfere in any way with anybody's religious beliefs. Religion is a private matter and cannot be imposed on others who don't want it.
49

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 11:05:38
53. "The notion of public service is to provide individuals a service to those who need/want it."

Therein the problem. Some don't want it - Some do. Where's the win-win?

"Individual freedom, which includes religious beliefs, should not and cannot infringe on other people's freedom" which includes people abusing that liberty to infringe on other people's freedom to believe. Justice cuts both ways.

So, how do we work to create a win-win or is it irreconcilable?


50

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 11:11:19
#53 Sadly religion is routinely "imposed" on others. At one end of the scale we have The Daily Service sabotaging 15 minutes of BBC long wave on radio 4 and imposing its fairy tales on me; children are routinely forced to sing hymns in "Christian school assemblies" whether they like it or not.

At the other end of the scale the religious bigots bomb and murder people who don't believe in their own version of the fairies at the end of the garden. Why? Not because they are good people but because they are power control freaks like the religious nutters on Lewis and Harris.
51

écossais at heart,

france 07/08/2008 11:16:15
#54
Religion is a private issue where as should be respected as such.
Ferry crossings are a public issue = not to be influenced or interfered in by private religious beliefs.
Religion should not dictate the way public affairs should be run.
Look at countries where religion dictates public policy eg Iran - is this the model we want?
I believe in total separation of religion and state for the above reasons;
52

It's life but not as we know it,

The ort Clouds 07/08/2008 11:23:28
In Golders Green, London the ultra-orthodox Jewish community has put up special wires around the area so that they can work on Saturday. It's some kind of God repellent that gets you off the hook in case He is looking. Sums it all up really.
53

hertscot,

07/08/2008 11:25:26
So every single person on these islands is against a sunday ferry service are they?

What about the individual freedoms of thase who want the service? Don't they count?

How many signatures were on their petition?

Where there more than on the LDOS petition?

If so, then the service should be provided.

54

neilser,

Aberdeen 07/08/2008 11:31:57
Dave Scott #53. You state:' "The notion of public service is to provide individuals a service to those who need/want it."

Therein the problem. Some don't want it - Some do. Where's the win-win? '

This is a wholly false construct. The right not to use a service of any description does not equate to a right to stop others from choosing to use that service. Teetotallers have the right to refrain from using alcohol but have no right to stop others from using alcohol.

Your other statement to the effect that using a ferry infringes people's freedom to believe is, frankly, nonsense. In our society these people are free to believe whatever guff they like. Surely you can understand that there's a difference between freedom to believe and the right to dictate the actions of others who don't share that belief?

55

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 07/08/2008 11:35:48
Why does religion and especially its fringe cults such as the Lord Day's Observance Society have to spoil it for those who do not believe or have lost their belief because of antics such as this one?
56

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 12:29:29
I think we need to find the necessary European laws about interference with trade and transport to keep these kirk nutters quiet for good. If they carry on molesting and impeding the rest of us in our lawful business and recreation then they should have their homes and the shirts taken off their backs to pay the debts.
57

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 07/08/2008 12:30:04
I think we need to find the necessary European laws about interference with trade and transport to keep these kirk nutters quiet for good. If they carry on molesting and impeding the rest of us in our lawful business and recreation then they should have their homes and the shirts taken off their backs to pay the debts.
58

hertscot,

07/08/2008 12:33:34
Dave Scott,Broughty Ferry
no, i wont attempt to prove it, however I suggest you try to prove the existence of a any deity.

The world is probably waiting for proof, so hurry up!
59

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 12:44:23
60. Neilser
An aside: 'Service' is a loaded word. Makes it sound benign - which it may be.

Your "This is a wholly false construct" is, imho, not true.
"The right not to use a service of any description does not equate to a right to stop others from choosing to use that service." - Did I say that it did?
Perhaps I was saying that people were equally at liberty to refuse a facility being imposed on them against their interests which would then erode or dilute their way of life or should Brazilian forest dwellers welcome McDonalds? Perhaps it's a choice to preserve something rather than a choice 'not to do something'

"Teetotallers have the right to refrain from using alcohol but have no right to stop others from using alcohol." Agreed but, to extend the metaphor, a teetotalling community are free to object to a corporation building a wine bar in their village hall. Brewers have the right to make beer but have no right to pour it down people's throats. So, again, where's the reconciliation point and where's the win-win?

"Your other statement to the effect that using a ferry infringes people's freedom to believe is, frankly, nonsense."
Yes it is nonsense if that's the effect you happen to draw from it, however I don't think that was the point I was making. I can't apologise for the conclusion you have drawn - that's your prerogative. Our divergence may be over what constitutes the freedom to believe and the freedom for praxis of belief.

"In our society these people are free to believe whatever guff they like. Surely you can understand that there's a difference between freedom to believe and the right to dictate the actions of others who don't share that belief?"

Even despite your mock rhetorical device, I can tell the difference. I am more concerned to avoid dictation from either side hence my query about win-win outcome. Are you saying that secular agnosticism can dictate what goes? Surely a civilised society permits, in as much as it can without e
60

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 12:45:13
... Surely a civilised society permits, in as much as it can without eroding itself, mutually guaranteed freedoms.
61

voice_of_reason,

Fife 07/08/2008 12:47:41
I assume that the Lords Observance.... can define what can and cannot actually be done on a Sunday? Perhaps the picking up of sticks on this day should be a capital offence as per their own scriptures? (Numbers 15:35) When a man was caught "picking up sticks on the Sabbath...The Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.""

What about the rights of Jews and Muslims who observe the Saturday Sabbath. Should we stop Ferry services on that day too?

Heck, I think that his pastaness the Flying Spaghetti Monster tells us (Wee Free church of FSM) that we should not eat beans. Ever. Can I demend that all tins of Heinz beans be removed from the shops if I can get enough beleivers in my village?

62

Dave Scott,

St Albans 07/08/2008 12:50:51
66. hertscot.

Boy are you copping out. You make a crass statement and challenge and don't even read the reply properly. What's the point of trying to have a reasoned debate with you?

You stated: "the same amount of evidence exists for garden fairies as does for a supreme deity."
I replied "Oh really, ... prove it".

I did not claim I would prove the existence of God, I challenged that there was the same amount of evidence (refutable or irrefutable).

Therefore please prove THAT THE SAME AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE EXISTS for garden fairies.
You can start
63

hertscot,

07/08/2008 12:52:47
66 They make the flowers.
64

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry, not St Albans :-0 07/08/2008 12:53:47
70. "Heck, I think that his pastaness the Flying Spaghetti Monster tells us (Wee Free church of FSM) that we should not eat beans. Ever. Can I demend that all tins of Heinz beans be removed from the shops if I can get enough beleivers in my village?"

I'm sure that thought will inspire millions. You can always give it a go if you want. I don't think you'll get very far.

This is the 'Voice of reason'? hmmm ... seems to have slipped a bit in the last 200 years.
65

hertscot,

07/08/2008 12:55:52
71,Sorry this will get silly. T

The statement I clarified, indicates that there is no evidence for either a deity or garden fairies, there fore the same amount of evidence exists for both.

If you have proof to the contrary then I'll be happy to listen, but I won't hold my breath!
66

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 12:58:45
72. hertscot Choose the response:

Either

(1) God, by definition, made everything ... argument from First Cause

or

(2) Did they really, how do I find out more?
Who are the leading thinkers on the subject?
What are the counterarguments?
Is there a website I can go to? Define 'fairy'.
Who made the fairies?

PS 66 was your posting ... 71 was mine ... ouch!
67

voice_of_reason,

Fife 07/08/2008 12:58:54
Dave Scott

Is the use of a Sunday ferry obligatory in any way? If yes, then it impinges on the freedom of those who do not wish to use it and you have a case. If it is not then it does not.

Your wine bar in the teetotal village analogy. No they would not be right in rejecting it because they are teetotal. They would be though if they could show that by allowing such an establishment it would result in some harm to everyone's phyical environment, e.g. drunken behaviour, increase in crime etc. Similarly anyone can object to the Sunday ferry if it could be shown that it would be detrimental to everyone's environment. However that is not the reason for their challenge. They are using religious reasons which by definition are not applicable to non-beleivers of any sort and therefore not relevant in this case.

Just as a non-beleiver would not (and should not) reject to the building of a religious building unless there are environmental reasons for doing so, a religious believer should not object to a commercial enterprise operating a public service on a Sunday.
68

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 13:00:44
Sorry hertscot - hit the send before I saw your later posting.

I am happy to enter into a good search with you but I don't think this is the right venue ... unless you want it to be.

Just left St Albans after 9 years there. How Herts for you?

D
69

Calum Crubag,

07/08/2008 13:01:45
Read somewhere here about 'atheist faith'. Eh?

Surely God beleivers are 'atheists' too in so much that they deny the validity of other gods, fairies, goblines etc...

Bottom line, why should a handfull of 'faith' addicts with no proof hold us all to ransom? What's to stop roads being built because some folk say it will destroy a fairy mound? Can they prove fairies don't exist? If it comes down to ancient folklore and literature then fairies are just as valid as 'God'.

Religious folk, keep it to home and church - that's your freedom. But the rest of us can't run a modern society on faith. Where would the courts be??!!!
70

voice_of_reason,

Fife 07/08/2008 13:05:15
Dave

My intent was not to inspire millions. It is called Reductio ad Absurdum.
71

Vincent-W,

07/08/2008 13:05:33
How many times have any of the posters used the Ferry in the last year?
72

danbob,

07/08/2008 13:05:59
This idea that you must not work on a Sunday originates from the old Jewish mosaic laws the same as animal sacrifices. Jesus stated that this law should not be used anymore. These christian islanders don't even know what it says in the bible, let alone practise it.
73

Dave Scott,

'the Ferry' 07/08/2008 13:07:44
76.
"Is the use of a Sunday ferry obligatory in any way? If yes, then it impinges on the freedom of those who do not wish to use it and you have a case. If it is not then it does not."

I don't think it's just a question of obligation (on either side), it could be about the erosion, by presence, of a praxis.
Give someone a gun and they'll probably end up using it ... or someone else in the community will. In USA everyone has a right to a gun, is not obliged to buy one, and lives with the consequences of those who do. Non-gun carriers will still get shot by gun-carriers.

I don't know if I go with the idea of the destruction of everyone's environment analogy since one could be put in an insidious position by the power of majority being right - the crisis of democracy. I'd opt for win-win if it were possible.
74

hertscot,

07/08/2008 13:07:51
Dave,

It's wet!
75

écossais at heart,

france 07/08/2008 13:09:07
#76 - voice_of_reason
Your logic is sound and well stated - thanks
76

voice_of_reason,

Fife 07/08/2008 13:09:34
Danbob. Need to get back to your Bible mate.

Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Jesus himself speaking)
77

Wallace1297,

07/08/2008 13:12:27
Mr Scott I would like to suggest that description of Tartan Taliban is an appropriate moniker for bigoted intolerant Christians as they seek to ape their Islamist brethren . In fact show me any crock death embracing supernatural bull sh*t and I will describe it in exactly the same terms.

I don’t deny anyone’s right to believe whatever they want. Unlike Christians I challenge you to find any example of any secularist who tries to stop people worshiping. Belief in religion is childish and infantile and most scientists reject any notion of divine creation. All incarnations of the Christian church are cults designed to keep greedy men in power an to relive the gullible of their money .

If your belief in your invisible friend is so strong and your disdain for science so strongly held do me a favour. Next time you become ill don’t go to a Doctor or hospital why not go to a “faith healer” like Benny Hinn or Pat Robertson who claim that they can cure Aids and cancer with a touch
78

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 13:13:41
I know RAA from when I studied Law but it only works if the principles and parameters are apposite. I perceived more in the realm of sophistry hence the polite irony in my response which drew the admission of your absurdity which didn't really help the debate but resorted to caricature. Sad.
In case you think I'm going to throw my toys out the pram, personally, I don't mind as it's all badinage on these postings anyway.
79

voice_of_reason,

Fife 07/08/2008 13:20:58
Thanks Dave. I'm sure what you have written makes sense to you but I must be too stupid (and sad) to understand.

I accept your badinage comment though so I'll bid you good day.
80

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 07/08/2008 13:22:06
86. Wallace 1297
Unnecessary bit of bile there my friend. Who are you to say that I have "disdain for science"? Favour refused.
Do you know what I think of Benny Hinn? However, I won't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just in the same way that I don't give up on being Scottish because of the antics of a few bampots.

What's your moniker for bigoted intolerant atheists? ... or do you need to attack Christians rather than bigotry and ignorance in themselves?
81

Billious43,

Glasgow 07/08/2008 13:22:43
OK that's the christians satisfied. Now, under european law, all other religions must be catered for. So on how many other days should the ferry be stopped from sailing? Fridays are out for a start (that's the weekend tourist trade finished). What day of the week is sacred to all of the other religions in the world? And may I have a tax rebate on the subsidies paid to the ferry company please as they are acting undemocratically by caving in to a minority pressure group and are not representing the interests of the people of the Scotland and the UK.
82

Dave Scott,

St Albans 07/08/2008 13:23:51
88. VOR

Alternatively I could be stuck up and on a high horse :-)
I trust we'll banter again sometime.

Take care,

Dave
83

hertscot,

07/08/2008 13:26:09
Dave,

The First Cause argument is a mess, and certainly does not provide proof of god. At best I would suggest it gives the religious preachers a philosophical approach to answering awkward questions, but it provides no answers.
It may help those of wavering faith, but it looks frail when scrutinised.
What people actually want to see is tangible evidence that can take the challenge. If First Cause is the proof of god then this argument is back where it started because there are no "proofs" in the philosophy as it was developed in the absence of scientific evidence to explain the universe.
84

hertscot,

07/08/2008 13:27:44
And my post was developed in the absence of decent punctuation!
85

Stornoway Sceptic,

Stornoway 07/08/2008 13:29:18
Dave Scott - did you really move from Broughty Ferry to St Albans in a matter of seconds, or are there two of you?
86

neilser,

Aberdeen 07/08/2008 13:33:07
Dave Scott#68


You state that the islanders are refusing a facility being imposed on them. That, I'm afraid, is utter hogwash.

The ferry would arrive and depart from the islands on which they live; that is all. This is not an 'imposition' on them, nor is the fact that planes are landing at the aiport and trains are arriving at the station just a few miles from me every few minutes of the day an imposition on me. It affects me not one little bit and likewise them.

If these people 'choose' to take offence based on superstitious brainwashing that was inflicted on them whilst they were at an impressionable age then that is their prerogative, but it is complete nonsense to talk of an imposition.

I suspect that your Brazilian forest dwellers will share many characteristics with the Holy Wullies, although it does seem likely that the forest dwellers will be more enlightened - they quite possibly allow dancing...

Do you advocate stoning adulterers and those who wear clothes made of mixed fabrics? I thought not...

Again, your analogy with brewers pouring beer down people's throats is yet another false construct. The beer is there for those who want to drink it; the ferry is there for those who want to use it. There's no element of compulsion whatsoever and there's nothing to be reconciled. Each to their own.

I'm happy to reconsider the point you tried to make when you said:

'"Individual freedom, which includes religious beliefs, should not and cannot infringe on other people's freedom" which includes people abusing that liberty to infringe on other people's freedom to believe. Justice cuts both ways.'

You will however have to explain where my analysis misconstrued what you were saying - having read your point several times I can't think of any other reasonable construction.


87

Billious43,

07/08/2008 13:33:38
Dave Scott. Your absurd posts are a perfect illustration of why belief in god requires suspension of all critical faculties. If you can manage it, you should read them as a teacher would read a child's essay. If you are honest you will be embarrassed for yourself. Besides this entire thing is about the taxpayer's right to access to that which they have paid for. If the islanders don't want our money, fine we should take the lot of it away and see how long they last in their island paradise without our hard-earned, heathen cash. Hypocrites.
88

Calum Crubag,

07/08/2008 13:38:45
#94 - God did it for him. And ye canny prove otherwise.

I just wish the Christian death-cultists would stop their bigotry against pagans and those others who believe in Thor, Zeus, Saturn, Odin, numerous Indian deities etc...

Funny but they use atheist arguments against OTHER equally ludicrous faiths!

In 2008, it's sad that this illogical nonsense still has an iota of influence.
89

Calum Crubag,

Alba gu brath! 07/08/2008 13:41:08
Btw, i used the Eilean Leodhais 2 weeks ago and would've loved a Sunday ferry at the time. Funny too, but Sabbath is actually Saturday in it's original meaning. So who is right? The Wee Freeks or the Semites?
90

Wallace1297,

07/08/2008 13:46:18


Mr Scott
I suppose as a Christian you by definition require hypocrisy of people. Zealots like yourself employ the old Machiavellian tactic of accusing atheists and secularists of the crimes that Christian bigots are themselves guilty of i.e. imposing their beliefs on others. This takes many forms such as teaching creationist fairytales to children in biology classes in place of evidence based evolution; Saying that teenage girls should be denied inoculation against cervical cancer because of the Priestly caste‘s obsession with sexuality, the denial of contraception to people in the third world for the same reason (this has lead to an upsurge in Aids and other STD’s), male and female genital mutilation, beheading for apostasy, stoning to death for adultery, other historical examples are the inquisition, the crusades and the burning of Witches .

I could go on. The simple fact is that organised religion has special (tax exempt) position in our society which it does not deserve. Christianity is a racket There is no imposition of atheism by the majority on the religious minority in Scotland. Only someone with the same mindset as William Jennings Bran at the Scopes trial could possibly think so.
91

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry not St Albans 07/08/2008 13:48:54
Biblical Sabbath is from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday.
Church Tradition: Lord's Day, not Sabbath, is Sunday.

94 SS
Two places at once? No, just can't consistently alter the autofill at present :-)
92

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry not St Albans 07/08/2008 13:51:08
99.

W1297.
Interesting suppositions where you continue to presume that I am anti-science.

"There is no imposition of atheism by the majority on the religious minority in Scotland. " Did I say there wa